> What? You're the one with the extraordinary claim. I've already repeated several times in this thread that unlawful use of something doesn't change the ownership of that something.

No extraordinary claim involved, prove that I'm the one that 'illegally disposed' of your or someone else's property that you attached surreptitiously to my car.

I'm not claiming I own it, I'm just making the point that if I destroy something that I'm not supposed to even know I've got then I don't need to prove that I own it, I can just conveniently lose it or destroy it in a way that would make it very difficult for you to prove that I did so. If only because you'd have to prove my possessing it in the first place, which does not mesh well with a device attached to follow my whereabouts in an unobtrusive way. Unless you plan on sticking a watch team with cameras on me as well, but in that case you wouldn't need a GPS unit.

A GPS unit is basically a way to track someone without further surveillance.

> "That is a structural problem with your legal system."
> Well I on purpose used "our", since "my" legal system is also the Dutch one.

Ok, so that makes it a funny situation then, two Dutch people arguing US law, personally I wouldn't have any compunction dealing with such a device in a very destructive manner on the premise that I don't know who does own it and if someone 'loses' their stuff under my car they only have themselves to blame if it gets lost or damaged.

> Also, I'm one paper away from finishing my degree in Dutch law - not to argue by authority

No, but you do mention that to bolster your argument.

> and I'm certainly no expert on criminal procedure, just pointing out that I do have some basic knowledge of Dutch criminal and property law.

So do I. So what. Transfer of property requires in most cases a consent on behalf of both parties and preferably a bill of sale or a deed of gifting. Other than that ownership is a pretty murky business from a legal point of view, I could make the case that if you attach something to my car that I assume possession of it, and if you don't agree with that you'd have to sue me. But first you'd have to get me to agree that I acknowledge that the device was there in the first place, but my whole argument rests on the fact that I have absolutely no intention to do so.

So the proof that I had your goods in my possession would have to come from you, and that might be a very difficult thing to do. After all, if I didn't know about it but you and your buddies did then why should I be the one to be held responsible for loss, damage or theft by some unknown third party.

> Smaller infractions (like retroactively applying for a warrant) much less.

Cite a case please, and name the defendants lawyer, that way I can be sure to avoid them.

retro-active warrants are very much frowned upon here, prosecuting party would have to meet pretty stringent levels of proof that there was an element of speed involved of such magnitude that the normal procedure could not be followed. In any case a competent lawyer will use that to his advantage.

> And don't forget that the Dutch 'reasonable suspicion' threshold is quite low. An anonymous phone tip will do. And hey, if that phone call happens to come from a phone booth across the street from the police station, who cares.

I agree that anonymous tips are not good enough to meet the standard, but from what I've seen of the Dutch legal system the police is not in a habit of going across the street phoning in illegally obtained evidence in order to 'launder' it.

If you have any evidence to the contrary then I'll accept that as incidental, not as structural. In other words, no doubt that there have been such cases but I do not feel that this is a thing that happens with great regularity, and I would hope for those cases where it did happen to be exposed and the responsible police officers to be removed from service.