GP wrote "fundamentally valuable" and "fundamental value". You completely ignored the "fundamental" part.

> Surely, then I must be able to point to some other thing that has some value which is also not circulated by a strong entity. Rare-earth minerals come to mind. Sunken treasure. Works of art. Illegal drugs, certainly. Stolen goods, clearly, and I would think any illegal market has to be seen as coming from a weak actor.

Oh right, some lovely examples, if you could stop the comparison with gold (can already see it coming: "nowhere did I write that" yeah you did: "rare-earth minerals") that'd be great. Gold has been recognized as having value for centuries. Its a physical product. It has this value world-wide, in all layers of society. It has a track record, a reputation. It can be traded both ways. A disadvantage is that the person who verifies its purity also is the one buying or selling it. Not layman-friendly (Bitcoin is neither though as people have no clue how it works, how to safely store it, etc; I'd argue it is worse.).

Cut diamonds (such as e.g. in jewelry), on the other hand, is like gold's evil twin. It has practically no resale value. The moment you buy one, its nearly worthless (ie. worth a lot less) than it was already. Its because it can't be reused. That means diamonds are overvalued. But because they're so desired for specific occasions and what not, its a matter of finding a fool who wants to buy them.

> Sunken treasure. Works of art. Illegal drugs, certainly. Stolen goods

A lot of these suffer from the same problem as diamonds. Either they're owned by collectors who also own normal money like USD and EUR with which they pay for their errands (which you can't with BTC either). Or they're trying to get it converted to either unwashed or washed USD or EUR.

For me, Bitcoin has no value, because I cannot use it. Virtually no shop accepts it because these people know full well the disadvantage of a slow, expensive transaction and because they can't use it anywhere anyway.

Furthermore, the default currency and price quote in our societies is still USD, EUR, or what have you. Not BTC. So if its going less well in society (ie. major recession), the default currency is what's going to allow you to keep your chin above the water. Those are times where you'll be able to use a currency like USD and EUR but where people are going to want to sell their possessions such as gold, diamonds (good luck with that!), works of art, sunken treasures, and BTC. But who'd want BTC then? You cannot use it to buy groceries. The bakery doesn't accept it. The butcher doesn't accept it. The bank doesn't accept it. The insurance company doesn't accept it. The gas station doesn't accept it. Practically nobody on your current list of monthly and weekly expenses accepts it. That means that, at such point, since BTC is linked to USD and EUR, the demand for BTC is extremely low because people are going to need USD and EUR to pay for their living. At such a point, BTC will crash and will be useless. Same for the other cryptocurrencies. Nevermind a time of war where electricity is scarce, since we're so dependent on it.

Such is the difference between value and fundamental value. Bitcoin has no fundamental value. It is akin to like rare obscure random paintings what a bunch of loons decide they want to give for it. And they can't easily trade that, either.

Then I wonder what's worse: the regulated government being allowed to print money, or some dudes in China being able to use very cheap electricity and allowed to "print" money. Guess who's more aligned with the interests of the average EU and US citizen?

> It is unfortunate, but it appears that people who believe this argument are fooling themselves.

Ah, right, you remained civil, and then you resorted to this. How cute.

Unfortunate for whom? Is it unfortunate for someone to miss out on a ponzi or pyramid scheme? Depends on 1) their moral compass (if aware of scheme) 2) exactly when they made the choice to not join in. In essence, they're not losing out on anything since they're keeping their USD or EUR nice and safe (or for example invested in companies). So, nice projecting & nice straw man.

> I hope they do not fool others.

Let me guess: because you want confidence in BTC because you got involved in it? OK, crystal clear, just be opaque and say that. Either way, nice projecting & nice straw man.