it's okay. nine_k and i are on "different sides" in view of this. I know nine_k does not want to see it differently. we shall not agree.

but for anyone else who comes across this and is still working out how they feel about this here's a thought experiment:

okay, so you've heard that China is led by selfish autocrats who are evil. now imagine the PRC ruling elite actually does act in the best interests of the Chinese people. just for the sake of the experience, try it on. conceive of the possibility.

next imagine a state that doesn't do that. there's plenty of examples of selfish failed dynastic dictators to pick from. philippines, north korea. we're not even touching on africa. the trajectory is clear. pillaged prosperity.

now look at China's trajectory since Mao kicked the nationalists out. compare to examples of failed single party states.

which type of leadership matches more closely the trajectory of China?

i get if you want to stick to the "evil elite" story. it's easier to dismiss China if you think their leaders are selfish and evil. if you don't live in China, it's more comfortable to deal with envy of their rise by paying yourself off by pretending they're worse in some ways. and if your view is correct, no foul, probably. there probably wasn't anything to learn there anyway, since you were "right" and they were "wrong". you can safely ignore China. but...what if that view wasn't correct? What if they were doing it right? doesn't being blind to that forfeit a chance to be inspired by their achievements and learn from them?

would you entertain the possibility you were mistaken about the leaders? what if you were? what if China is led by people who act in the interests of the Chinese and seek the revival of China? what if they were successful doing it?

maybe you think, well, who cares, it actually it doesn't matter what their motivations are, as long as they deliver. and they sure have delivered growth, prosperity and harmony.

but what if it does matter what their motivations are? what if their motivations their ultimate goal, the cherishing of the Chinese people, is key to their success? I fully understand the painful resistance to anything that is like self-confidence, national pride, or englightened nationalism in a country that is very publicly going through a "dark night of the soul", exposing its self-doubts and self-hatred, equivocation and division for all the world to see. "please don't remind us of anything that looks like shining nationalism that works. don't remind us what we lost!" but, if you really understood the chinese people you'd see that their unity of pride in who they are is really key to who they are becoming, and to their success in this transition.

americans used to be proud of themselves as well. now they're going through their adolescent "low confidence" "self doubt" and "conflict" stage. it's messy. it's not helping their country in obvious ways. but surely the tumult is helping the long term. i'm sure there is a future they can get to where their self confidence and pride in who they are guides them again. but that's probably a very very long way off.

you've got to make up your own mind about what you see about china. i hope my enthusiasm or openness to other points of view has helped you see a bigger picture than the mainstream self-soothing anti-China propaganda, that obscures the truth and doesn't really help anyone -- except to console, for a little while.

but who needs consolation when you get results?

success is a far better consolation than pretending the other side are "bad".

ok, so on to other stuff now. i shall not continue this thread. :);p xx