skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
It’s not that easy.

I’ve had proper DKIM, proper SPF, my IP wasn’t blacklisted anywhere.

But I still ended up in Spam.

So I had to send for about a year emails to friends every few days, replicating our discussions on WhatsApp etc (so they’d have organic content), and I’d ask them to mark them as "not spam".

Now I end up in their normal Inbox.

EDIT: Why the downvotes? Please comment instead what you think is wrong – or how else do you think I should get my personal domain trusted?
It didn't work well.

But who cares?

Even if there were, hypothetically, no possible way to make XMPP work, and Google really needed a custom protocol, they could still have released public documentation for that protocol, and open source client and/or server code.

Indeed, that's sort of what they did in 2009 by creating Jingle, an XMPP extension for voice chat, and releasing libjingle. But no such luck for the new stuff.

I could understand giving up federation, maybe, since it creates a spam problem. Though for Google to throw up their hands on spam is a bit ironic, given that Hangouts sits inside Gmail, which has world-class spam filtering. But federation was never really necessary: most XMPP clients support multiple accounts, and it's not like there were a lot of huge XMPP services - only one, Google. You just add that as an account in addition to whatever smaller-scale/organizational XMPP servers you use. (You know, the thing people used to use before Slack.)

Similarly, most XMPP clients support multiple protocols, so for Hangouts to use a custom protocol is not the end of the world. Annoying, but if the benefits are clear enough… it's fine.

But no. Like with most messaging services these days, Hangouts' protocol isn't documented, and nobody has bothered to reverse engineer it. So you're stuck with the official clients. Maybe not the end of the world, since unlike the bad old days of Windows-only clients that left Linux users in the cold, today any desktop OS can use the web client. (And non-top-two mobile OSes don't have enough market share for people to care about their not being supported, and many of them can run Android apps.)

Not the end of the world, unless you want all your messaging services in one place - people used to see a lot of benefit in that, and there are a lot more services now.

Or you don't like the official design. Or you don't like bloated web clients. Or you prefer free software.

Sigh.
Yes, if they're Firefox (to a large extent) or Safari (to a small-ish extent); not if they're Chrome or Edge, etc.
Testing in React: best practices, tips and tricks
New Portal to Unveil the Dark Sector of the Universe
No, closed ones are a betrayal. If someone doesn't upgrade, you can easily exclude them from communication and even build such logic in the protocol itself. It will pressure them to be up to date. I don't see an issue here.
Sounds like regular extractive mining to me. I guess it's not talked about as much but terraforming large parts of earth and setting off huge explosions tends to kill whatever was living in the vicinity or its habitat
Notice how Inbox has a "Gmail" link? Even Google appears to still concede that Inbox is missing sufficient features that some people need to be able to get back to Gmail from time to type (tried getting Inbox to stop putting things in your spam folder? Yeah, it's lacking a "Not spam" button)
"Collaborate on standards. Compete on quality"

Or something, I'm probably butchering the quote. There's a reason we can play CDs from any manufacturer in every manufacturer's player. Likewise SD cards, VHS videos, DVDs...

The importance of working with your competitors was well understood in the 1980's. Seem's it's a lesson we need to learn again: https://hbr.org/1989/01/collaborate-with-your-competitors-an...
Exactly. Thats my point.
Upvoted this mostly because sometimes it's good to be reminded of the idiocy that people are paid to write.
After Gtalk was killed in Google Apps, everyone in my company switch to Slack. Hangouts is a botched POS. None of us want to use video.
I don't know all the details, but between heightened public awareness, state-level regulations, and the federal Clean Water Act, overall pollution levels in American freshwater was improving markedly.

It seems plausible to me that we're talking about poisons of all sorts being cleaned from the environment, not just DDT.
Same here. My personal mail server is running for 4 years. Never had problems being blacklisted by gmail.
And the short-lived Google+ Messenger
I mean, I wasn't trying to refute the parent comment; it is true that we should know more about DDT.
CIA recovered sunken Soviet sub, carrying nukes, largely succeeded (1974)
fun fact, ICQ is doing just fine. They just stopped bothering staying in the English speaking game, it's now mostly a Russian thing. Doing quite well, still under active support and development.
"Why aren't people experts outside of their field?"
Get noticed by recruiters with a killer portfolio
Some LCD displays use flicker to set backlight LED brightness.
Once it sticks and everyone is using it, then shut it down
You're quoting the comment of a guy taking his sources out of context. The G suite article he uses as a source doesn't contain the word Asterisk nor Google Voice
> The box itself was the artwork in addition to the contents.

That's not how I read it (emphasis mine):

> One of those haulers venturing into art, transported a artwork by a Chinese artists (do not know the name), basically very long paperrolls with Chinese letters on them to be hung from a halls ceiling
Here's the blog post from the hack's author:
https://www.avidhacker.com/2016/02/29/catchMeIfYouCan/
> We ended up solving the problem by not continously pushing the button down when turning. The further the wheel is turned to the left or right, the greater amount of time the button stays down and the further the car turns.

I'm a little confused at this statement. Does this mean they just had it tapping 'left' or 'right' instead of holding the button down initially?
Hey Aaron! My team applied earlier this week and we're eager to join the YC community. Are there any traits you look for in applicants? We've read tons of PG's essays but I'm interested in your perspective. Thank you for taking the time to do this AMA!
Foreign Startups Disrupting the Vision Industry
> I secretly wish Discord had been based out of some open standard because it is well done.

I want to highlight that this is not realistically possible for anyone, not right now anyway.

When Discord was created, XMPP was the only option if you wanted to adopt an open standard, and it was absolutely not up to the task. Matrix was also an option but far too new.

Discord is a startup, and is run as a business (just like Slack). If you were at the head of a startup in the messaging space, and there were no reasonable open source options for messaging, you'd design your own. This is a hard process; making it an open protocol from the get-go removes a lot of your freedom.

I used to say (even here on HN) that Google was our best hope at creating a modern open source messaging protocol, by improving Hangouts and making it open. They have utterly failed.

I am confident Discord is our next best hope... assuming they succeed. Otherwise, it's back to waiting for Matrix to finish playing catchup.
In this debate over climate change the pollution human activity causes gets lost in the debate. Extractive mining is terrible for the environment and ecosystems.

One of the biggest reasons why I am supporter of SpaceX is that they will facilitate asteroid mining.

It'd be kind of funny if Ridley-Scott retconned the origin the Weyland-Yutani Corp to make them eco-saviors for taking resource extraction completely off-world
In the words of Schopenhauer, "nothing in the world is so rare as a good judge."
My gf gave in and bought an iPhone 7. I haven't owned an iPhone since 2009.... iMessage is pretty neat... But still, I'm sticking with Android.
But seeing as we can't trust Google to keep supporting their own stuff from one moment to the next, nor can expect their own services to interoperate with each other, perhaps we shouldn't particularly care which protocols Google supports.
There is nothing language specific or magic about those things. You could (and you will see people) write those things in go as the language starts getting more adoption.

Go goes further and encourages code gen, so that will probably be the way you start seeing terrible frameworks being built.

In any case, "configuration as code" doesn't seem like a good definition of "magic" to me.
Some apps on iOS have started to integrate the ability to drop directly into the reader view (Tweetbot is the one I use on a regular basis).
Honestly, what I think we're seeing is evidence of an existential crisis in some quarters in Google. There's a lot of people who still believe in "do no evil" and who furthermore believe that part and parcel of that is not building walled gardens. Then you have other people - including Larry - who think walled gardens are the only solution. The PM for RTC at Google wrote a long email about how basically interoperability is dead, XMPP is dead, federation is dead, and every attempt by Google to build open standards has been effectively exploited by competitors.

So a lot of influential management thinks going full FB is the way to go. But a lot of other people at Google think open standards are still the way of the future, or can be if a company like Google is willing to champion them.

The result of all of this is a complete and utter dumpster fire from a product perspective. It's the classic "if we're not pulling together then we're rowing against each other" problem. I think Google would be able to execute just fine if they could settle on what they want to achieve. Instead we have this.
I call ricist when I see it. Some of my favorite rice is brown!
Insomnia Evidence Review Summary
But isn't CS one of the formal sciences (together with mathematics, statistics, etc.)? Familiarity with mathematical notation should be pretty foundational for active researchers in the field I would think.
Its interesting how far across the city the noise pollution of an airport effects
I've never understood that Hangouts… wasn't Google Talk? I still don't exactly understand.
Google releases so many great or potentially great products with just absolutely terrible support and marketing
BTW, around here in Finland we had an undersea iron mine at the island of Jussarö. It last operated in 1954-1967.

Location: https://goo.gl/maps/FoJeqJRUS6R2

It's probably not unique; are there similar mines elsewhere? (I.e. the mine shaft is on dry land, but mine tunnels reach to dig minerals from areas that are actually underneath the sea floor).
Perverse incentive
Say hello to the 11 new cloud atlas inductees
> That all has to be replaced.

Yup...over time, just like it is ALREADY replaced over time. But let's assume I accept everything you stated without quibble.

I feel like we've lost the point of this thread. Yes, ANY large company vanishing would have a large impact. The more widespread the current influence of that company, the larger the impact.

But we weren't discussing "does MS qualify as a company with widespread influence". We weren't saying "I bet I can name a large company that could vanish without notable impact". Someone made the assertion that Amazon is somewhat unique in the results of theoretical vanishing. Even if Amazon ISN'T unique in this regard, the consequences of Amazon vanishing and MS vanishing are very, very different.
No, I'm going to agree that that is 100% within the field of academic computer science. I literally covered all the relevant notation in my freshman year.

What I'm wondering is whether or not there was some other factor going on, because I'm trained as a computer scientist and found nothing particularly objectionable about the formula, other than the f[] application notation. (And as a polyglot programmer, I've long since made my peace with that sort of notation mutation.) And I am by no means well-practiced in that sort of thing; I've been out of school for 14 years now, and only dabble on the side in this sort of thing now. The "forall y there exists an x such that" pattern in the middle is an extremely common recurring pattern, and what surrounds it on either side is also extremely simple.
Their Chrome plugin was also wonderful. Keyword "was". It used to be a discreet window that persists across tabs, which you could minimize and expand from the lower right corner of your screen.

They killed it and now it's an awful behemoth google hangouts window. Really disappointing.
Have you figured out how to stop Desktop icons from moving all over the place?
That is correct, the age of the domain and the "not spam" click matter a lot.

If you want a new domain and have little traffic (e.g. personal domain), you're fucked.
Firing 18 of the 19 messaging teams will just make 36 new ones sprout up.
I learned all of that while I got my CompSci major. Had I filled out some form I would have had a math minor upon graduation. But I could hardly tell you what any of that meant 15 years later, because it never comes up in anything I do.
Judging by the upvotes and timestamp on that story (90 points, 4 hours ago), and not being able to find it on at least the first 3 pages of HN (for comparison, there's a story on page 3 with 33 points, 22 hours ago)...

That was one of those threads which just gets opaquely disappeared off the front page.

Which is something I've been noticing happening a lot lately. Really big turnoff from participating in this site.
If you're looking for a future in federated chat: matrix.org. I think there's real potential in the protocol and Im slowing moving most of my chat activity there.
Neat idea. Although I think it's basing this mainly (only?) on road and air traffic data. It doesn't seem to include noise generated by the railways--at least where I looked.
My point exactly. The issue isn't java the language. The issue is the flexibility of the JVM runtime and how people are abusing it.

Also, if load-time aspect-weaving and classpath-scanning-based autodiscovery don't count as magic to you, then not much will. Code generation at least has the huge, huge, humongous advantage that you have code on disk that you can read and debug.

I also admire Racket's macro system for coming with IDE support for introspecting and debugging the code generated by macros. Macros are a much better design because they generally run at compile time and they generally only make local code transformations that are much easier to reason about, as opposed to the sweeping global changes a weaver will make.
> I've always wondered why LISP was such a hot-topic of discussion for CS people.

Because in a discussion with five CS people, only one has actual real Lisp programming experience, one has some freshman experience in some professor's one-weekend Lisp-like dialect where a run-time type error segfaults, and the other three have different misconceptions about what Lisp is.
sounds like a douche in the media test - I'm introducing a test to weed out douches you don't want to work for.
A lot of my friends that are friends with me on FB for some reason prefer DMing me on Instagram... Such a weird trend, but it's honestly a thing amongst our group. Either that or Snapchat group chats.
If you don't want to see my pop up asking you to subscribe to my newsletter after you've scrolled through half the article I wrote (that you have shown to be interested) then you are free to leave and not come back. Deal.
UniFi devices are configured with a standalone Java app, not a Java applet in a web browser.
They probably went with the cheap developer, who promised it to be done by Christmas... now they hired a different agency to do it, meanwhile...
This black hole is being pushed around its galaxy by gravitational waves
It just doesn't come up very much. The computers abstract it enough that you rarely need to actually look at notation like that. Unless you're doing some real close to the metal work, which the people who kept their hands raised probably were.
> concern trolling and exaggerating

I wish you would save that for Reddit (or anywhere else). I like HN because trolls are downvoted and exaggeration isn't tolerated much -- even to the point that harmless jokes are downvoted into oblivion. It's not that those things are unacceptable, but rather that a lot of us come to HN for the serious, genuine discussion that is hard to find elsewhere.

Also don't troll and exaggerate if you don't want anyone to respond with a counterpoint. Isn't trolling about getting a response?

> I replied with my perspective. I'm sure she'd love to hear yours instead of hearing you try to tear mine down to fit your world view.

If you don't want anyone to respond to your comments, don't post them somewhere that discussion is encouraged.

> Looking forward to your top level post direct to her.

I agree with her and don't have anything to add to her article. If that weren't the case, I would have posted a top-level comment. Don't tell me where my opinions do/don't belong on an open forum.
Walmart.com also has problems with fraudulent sellers (gray-market items) but it's not as bad.
They also want to destroy SMS, converting to "RCS messaging powered by the Jibe RCS cloud from Google".
No, K&R (first edition) is pre-ANSI. I mean pre-K&R. Things like initializers without ‘=’ and compound operators with ‘=’ first.
I agree 100%. I'm frankly still not certain if Google talk and G-chat are even the same thing. I've used G-chat for a long time, but don't remember the name being changed.

Also, regarding branding: even overlooking the shell-game Google is playing with regards to moving features around (SMS => Voice, SMS => Hangouts, SMS => ?), the branding was confusing from the outset:

- Google Chat (GChat)
- Google Talk
- Google Voice

These might as well be synonyms.
I'm really not being a troll here, I'm just confused:

Google Talk : what is that? Is that the little box on the left hand side of the page on gmail that lets you chat with other gmail users?

Google Hangouts : different? I know it's videochat but it also has text ... a different thing?

The Android/Google phone chat app thingy --- is this different still?

obviously I'm not a regular google user at least not of these services
Agreed. If they go as far as randomly disabling AWS nodes to test their own resilience I'd be shocked if they didn't have some sort of contingency for if AWS went completely belly-up. Who knows, they could even have Azure nodes on standby in case AWS in its entirety went down?
How to Get More Customers: Insights from 7 Industry Experts
Perhaps this is the point we need legislation to require that IM services with above X users in the relevant jurisdiction must provide a full, open, protocol and enable interoperation via the published protocol? That's the only way I see the companies involved would move to enable cross-platform communications?

Aside:

>It's a wonder we can send e-mails between many servers.

I have a shared account on a small ISP, Microsoft won't receive our emails, even when replying to an email from a Microsoft user, even when user whitelisted. [It's probably the same with some other suppliers?] The only way to reply to people using Outlook/Hotmail/Live (I'm a user of hotmail for something like 16 years) is now to send via MS servers - basically had to make an account for this purpose.

The sending IPs aren't blacklisted with Senderscore (or other blacklists, I mention senderscore because they apparently provide domain reputation services for MS); some "related IPs" have medium reputation scores (senderscore 72).
A little OT- does anybody subscribe to this site? Is it worth supporting?
Growing Insomnia to $800 MRR
I'm not sure I buy your claim that mathematical notation is "close to the metal".
'Outside their field' was poor wording on my part. I meant more that it's not the sort of thing that most CS engineers see day to day. People forget things they don't use often.
How-to add CalDAV and CardDAV accounts and sync with Windows 10
This is such a notation issue. If I were to show an implementation of permutations from 1..N in eg Brainfuck (to choose an extreme example), there's no way the mathematicians would get it. Why don't mathematicians learn math??
They have already mail email incompatible. They haven't changed protocol but best of luck if you run your own email server.
Matrix looks interesting, though I'm not sure why they use HTTP for transport. Sounds a bit counter intuitive, since HTTP was never built for proper duplex communication. XMPP (in the browser) had to use BOSH to work around that, then came WebSockets, WebRTC and so on.

Another intereting one is Tox.
You might be interested in my side project: https://github.com/lukechampine/ply

IMO when people say they want generics in Go, they really just want a few functional-style methods and functions on slices (e.g. map, filter, reduce methods, and functions like sort, reverse, repeat). So I wrote a compile-to-Go language that allow you to write "Go code" that also has those things.

One of the things I've found, though, is that Go's first-class function syntax really harms the elegance of these sorts of constructions. For example, compare:

// square a slice of ints in Go
for x := range xs {
x *= x
}

// square a slice of ints in Ply (morph == map)
xs.morph(func(x int) int {
return x*x
})

When really, we want something like:

xs.map(x => x*x)

I think it's possible to achieve the latter without having to write a new lexer/parser/typechecker from scratch, but for now I'm avoiding adding any new syntax.
Google's marketing department.... Ugh... Gmail (for your website) gets renamed to Google Apps, then rebranded to Google Apps For Business. Then they throw that out the door and call it "G Suite "G Suite for Business" and "G Suite for Enterprise" - killing me Google... I mean Alphabet...
Good analogy. I was thinking of this the other day - while technically the big players are in standards committees together and do work on common standards, in practice it's a bunch of corporate maneuvering that bears no resemblance at all to things like the kind of things Sony, Toshiba, Onkyo, Panasonic and other big players do when they decide they want to accomplish something. Can you imagine Google, Apple and Microsoft regularly forming cross-team working groups to specifically develop technology and associated standards to be adopted by all?

They're too busy suspiciously eyeing each other's userbases to waste time on anything like long-term strategic thinking that benefits anyone but themselves. To be honest it feels like that kind of collaboration is long gone - it came about because it was necessary to actually serve consumers. But while someone who purchased a Compact Disc player is a Sony customer, a person who uses chat is not a Google customer - they're a SKU. The whole way the Internet tech industry is structured is exactly the opposite of what you'd want if you wanted to encourage collaboration. By making users and their data a commodity instead of customers there's no benefit at all to improving their general experience.
What's nefarious about it?
> You know, I can get behind that XMPP wasn't up to the task - I tried dealing with XMPP myself and it's a frustrating piece of work.

XMPP is weird, true; it relies on opening an XML document and sending fragments of XML for the duration of the session and only closing the document at session completion. Very odd. But it performs extremely well. And once you get your head wrapped around the constraints, it's not so bad.
True, but given that they're moving towards 'Windows as a Service' it's not hard to imagine that happening someday.

Except for the Server OS. That's already built to be pretty standalone (aside from updates and collaborating with other Windows Servers). The idea here is that future security vulnerabilities aren't being patched which means it'd be open season for hackers once new vulns are discovered.
So they obviously have the code to support WebDAV/CalDAV but not the foresight to implement it correctly.