> It's very hard to even verbalize your intuitions on this topic without veering into metaphysics.

I know, it is a pain in the butt.

We cannot allow mystics to defend their territory against incursion ;-)

> Provided there's a 4th layer on top of the triad matter/energy/information - then yes, it would be doable.

> We are organized on 3 successive layers (body / life / mind) because the universe could be thought of as structured on 3 layers: matter / energy / information (we have started to figure out the equivalences between these layers recently).

Well put! Your talking is reminding me of the Russian scientist Vernadsky.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noosphere

"Basically, Vernadsky reasons that there is a certain succession by which the earth develops. Geosphere or inanimate matter comes first, followed by the biosphere or biological life. Then comes noosphere which comprises human consciousness and mental activity. Each of these relate to each other, with the emergence of biological life transforming the geosphere and the emergence of human consciousness transforming biological life. Both biological life and human cognition are seen as having a large impact on the evolution of the earth, a concept that is somehow parallel to Darwin’s theory of natural selection. "

> So if there are any limitations to logic (and therefore to reason), it's likely that these come from the way the information meta-layer of the universe works.

Mmmm, I think so yes. That should be enough to give us some clues as to how to overthrow the existing order. At least conceptually if not practically.

> But then that 4th meta-layer would have to somehow become embodied, either naturally (evolution) or artificially (technology).

I am open to any ideas you have here. We have to think big, really big, which is exciting but daunting. The danger is, as Dijkstra pointed out, that anything genuinely original is going to be very difficult to conceptualize without utilizing crutches, incorrect mental models.

I know MIRI is attempting to get a handle on AGI, Robin Hanson on EMs, and both of these seem like routes towards what this 4th layer.

Suppose a 3rd route, where AGI is not discovered or discoverable, where EMs are too inefficient but in which our descendants have the following powers:

They can edit their genes in realtime.
They can use Drexler's nanobots to accomplish physical changes.

In that world, which is like the noosphere, AI is basically the coordinating mechanism that gives us 'extra digit span'. Presently we use money as a coordinating mechanism to accomplish objectives which involve abstracting away the details, which product, which company, which people, into a simple input/ouput mechanism. I put my hand in my pocket and produce five dollars in exchange for oranges.

Similarly an agent of the Noosphere could coordinate vast bodies of information to produce results that are not strictly speaking comprehendible by the human, but who could serve to offer up value judgments of what is better or worse. Do I even want oranges?

I suppose I'm saying that humans offer Noosphere agency (what do?), while the metacognition (how to?) is handled by experiments, counterfactuals, allowing our society and individuals to iterate through many lifetimes of experience without making the same or as many mistakes.

Then as a consequence of this aggressive program's feedback we get wiser. Our priors change. Our agency begins to reflect different values from those we had originally. Then we begin to be able to set much more worthwhile goals, such as leaving the planet instead of waiting for all life as we know it to be consumed by an exploding sun.

> All of the above is just one giant pile of assumptions floating on thin air.

With the search for the 4th layer, AGI and EMs are little different.

> Or closer to being what is called truth (that which is), rather than even "seeing".

That is something I don't think even the 4th layer could penetrate. With the 4th layer there still exists a vast search space of possible outcomes, just on a different level to the present world, just as learning to read books is potentially taking advantage of all pre-existing knowledge as opposed to constantly rediscovering the same things time and time again without literacy in the Ancient World.

Another thing that seems universal is that just as literacy created new problems for society while uplifting it, so too getting to a 4th layer would probably have its hazards.

> Are we getting kicked out of here yet? :)

Dawg, everybody's left the bar and the guy behind the counter is ringing the police!