skysight-inc/HackerNews huggingface dataset:
The engineers will not be screwed over. They get the same amount -- whether Jeremy wins or not. Jeremy is seeking half of whatever Kyle is slated to receive, i.e., his diluted pre-seed 50% stake.
From the complaint:

the application that Vogt himself submitted to Y Combinator described repeatedly that Guillory was a founder of Cruise Automation and states unequivocally in response to a question asking “who are the shareholders and what percent does each own?” that “Cruise Automation is a Delaware C Corporation created in September 2013. 50/50 split between Kyle and Jeremy."

If true, that could be worth hundreds of millions, which is an even larger amount of money to walk away from.
Windows has been getting locale settings right for ages now.

That's because those settings were designed before the era of "simplify everything that could even slightly potentially confuse an idiot user" and have been retained from then. I wouldn't be so sure if the future Windows versions will still be as customisable, given that they've already removed things like the ability to change fonts and colours in the UI. It's almost a given that sooner or later someone will come across it, think "let's overhaul/refresh/'enhance the UX'", and turn it into a totally sleek and stylish but less functional version of what it used to be.
As someone who has both started and worked very early at multiple startups, it's so incredibly outlandish to hear someone claim that they brought in a business plan and some ideas, and that ideas alone should represent an equal percentage ownership to someone who actually worked on building a business for multiple years. In startups no battle plan ever survives first contact with the enemy. There is a reason why most successful companies release an initial version of a product early, then adapt to market conditions rather than sitting down, writing a long business plan, and executing it.

If Jeremy's MechE experience and background in self-driving cars was so valuable how did Cruise manage to pivot from just offering an autonomous driving add-on that only worked on the highway to building a fully-autonomous city-based driving solution without him. How did they manage to raise millions of dollars, write all the code, and build all the hardware without him. It just doesn't add up.
I also thought the claim was really dubious, although I thought the author meant total over the guys lifetime, which would probably not be impossible if he spread the exposure quite a bit (compared to the people who died from shorter intense exposure)
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-thomson-postel-was-wrong-0...
Oh, is that all? Someone should let Google know.
Actually, no. He's been promoted to higher position now. This is another thing that made me disillusioned. At larger companies it's all about politics
I disagree. It's simple, but the triangle is fairly unique.
With the exception of pathological metaprogramming examples -- and even those have largely been fixed -- there's no way you could even measure this, let alone justify such a strong, broad opinion. You're using incomplete information to justify sloppy engineering and promoting it to others.
Unbelievable. An experienced & successful entrepreneur would take on an unknown cofounder without any kind of vesting schedule + cliff. Doesn't make any sense to me. I am not buying Jeremy's side at all.
Are you connected to the project somehow?
Thats not how these things work. Scenarios:

1. Deal falls through (unlikely)
2a. Deal goes through, and engineers amount are held in a reserve fund for 18 months to 2 years until the lawsuit is settled or the after the above timeframe. This is standard in situations like this.
2b. GM may reneogotiate to have this come out pro rata. Also unlikely (this may be incorrect if dillution only impact Kyle. Jeremy does claim he wants 50% of the whole pie)

So in all scenarios, this does not bode well for them at all. Kyle must be furious, but for the engineers who had no part in this, who there is no question have both ownership and actually wrote code, I feel very sorry for.

The lawyers will make out better then them too :/
This whole case is really surprising. I would expect intellectual property assignment agreements and a vesting cliff, particularly after cofounding Twitch.

On the other hand, I know how normal it can feel to trust each other, procrastinate on docs, and just get all over the tech.
It's all true.

Someday, long from now, I'd like to do a crater run with eager drop and see if anything actually breaks.
From the YC application via the counter complaint

"“Cruise Automation is a Delaware C Corporation created in September

2013. 50/50 split between Kyle and Jeremy.”"
Apple found $40M in gold in used phones and computers last year
In that regard I prefer HOCON.
Are you a bot?
So, as a 20 year user of emacs with a .emacs file older than some people who post here: I have moved away from both.

I like being able to use other languages for editor extension, having a competent graphical and text layout layer with image support, and quite frankly I find emacs development tedious now.

So... Do I need a few more years of time to "get it?"
Plus, there's FreeBSD Jails, Illumos Zones, and SmartOS' support for Linux apps (Dockerized or otherwise). SmartOS is based on Illumos.

I was reading the recent HN discussion + article on the recent network namespaces, and wondered at how much ahead networking on Illumos is.
That's not what they're paying for. They're paying for the cost, in employee hours and outsourced contractor hours, of ensuring that all that happened was that a page got modified. Rest assured, their CMS is surely as crappy as it was before Keys laid his stubby little fingers on it.
Except as soon as you tell the spammer what is blocked and what isn't, they just add that to the playbook.

I agree with you that some measure of notification that there's spam filtering would be good, but it's Google we're talking about. There's spam filtering.
8 new java 8 features
5 weeks ago your infrastructure stopped sending out mail. Our apps didn't change, your infrastructure did.

Whether it's your outgoing spam filter that's overzealous, or if a datacenter is on fire is irrelevant. Your infrastructure stopped doing what your docs said it would.

Paying customers like myself have apps running on your infrastructure. Your infrastructure stopped delivering the exact same emails that it had been delivering for years. It did this without notification and without triggering any errors.

Approximately 35 quote requests that should have been delivered have disappeared into thin air. You've cost me money, and I'm disappointed to find out that you'd been notified of this issue weeks before it began affecting me.
The RED Camera Was Not a Disruptive Innovation
Wow, what an interesting book.

> stability of value

Yes, soap has phenomenal storage value! Depending on its ingredients you can keep soap bars indefinitely, and they will maintain 100% of their value. If necessary, you can (re)pack it with food storage tools to ensure it stays dry, like vacuum-sealed mylar bags in plastic bins, but as I understand it, soaponified oil won't go rancid even with moderate O2 exposure. For friends looking to save for their future, I advise putting soap near the top of their list and making a full space for it among their shelves.

For my needs, I have found this soap works and feels great: http://www.kirksnatural.com/products/kirks-fragrance-free-co...
Ugh. 'Infinite' vacation policies are starting to infect corporaculture. I work for a megacorp (that I actually rather enjoy working for) that recently went this way, and since my megacorp is a bit of a trend setter, you can expect it to spread. During the explanation meeting, it was made clear that we really aren't supposed to take more vacation than what we used to have, but that we are expected to still actually take about as much vacation as we used to have ... so essentially a no-change there. As far as I can tell, it's mostly about

1) Making it so that employees can't take vacation at times that are particularly bad for a project because they're 'entitled' to it. This was already frowned upon (we always did get to use our vacation eventually, so it wasn't so bad), but now it's in writing -- which is good, rules should be written.

and, more importantly to the megacorp:
2) Eliminating owed vacation from their books & marginally reducing cost. Now if somebody quits or is canned, they're not owed a payout. I'm guessing the average employee will probably also take a couple of days less than they did under the old system, yielding a further savings.
> The promise was memorialized in the October 21, 2013 Y Combinator application, submitted by Vogt with the knowledge and approval of Guillory, that identifies Guillory and Vogt as the founders of Cruise and lists Guillory as a 50% shareholder of Cruise Automation

This is interesting, as the YC Application does require breakdown. ["If you have not formed the company yet, describe the planned equity ownership breakdown among the founders, employees and any other proposed stockholders. (This question is as much for you as us.)"]
I don't agree with that either, but the Chrome issue is the one that prevents me from making better use of that Mac.
What is interesting to me is that the video offers some hints that both parties are being uncharitable in their description of the other party.

Jeremy acknowledges previous robotics and technical competency of Kyle, and Kyle describes both of them having a fairly developed plan involving commodity components, a plan to bring to market quickly, and "constraining the problem".

Nothing in the video is a silver bullet, and I have no idea what the final legal implications are. But it seems complicated. It certainly doesn't sound like you can write off the short 1-month period in which Guillory worked on it, and it suggests he may have contributed to patentable items or significant architectural designs, which if then used to carry out Cruise's products, would really raise questions if Guillory's degree of ownership (yes, 1-month of architectural designs really are that big of a deal).

But it also absolutely does not seem like Kyle is so devoid of technical expertise that he couldn't have advanced the company without critical work from Jeremy.

Whatever the outcome, I think it will be contentious and drawn out.
Yeah, but if that is true the agreement should be in writing. So I think Kyle should be able to easily prove Jeremy wrong if they did have a vesting schedule. Edit: according to Sam Altman's blog post they never got around to signing employment agreements.
Apple manages to do it just fine. Although the advanced settings are a little threadbare on iOS they are very powerful on OSX and still serviceable on iOS.
I thought it was obvious enough I didn't feel the need to repeat it given how repetitive I was with the OP. ;)
Then the YC application quotes are inaccurate? Incomplete? Fabrications?

"Cruise Automation is a Delaware C Corporation created in September 2013. 50/50 split between Kyle and Jeremy."

Edit: Added quote.
Well, according to Sam Altman:

"According to Kyle, Jeremy did not write any code or build any hardware during this exploratory period. He did help find an office for the company. At the point of Jeremy’s departure, neither he nor Kyle had signed employment agreements, stock agreements, or any documents of any sort with the company. Even if Jeremy had signed a stock agreement, he wouldn’t have reached the standard 1-year cliff for founders to vest any equity."[1]

[1]http://blog.samaltman.com/cruise
My understanding is that Dart is used by Google Fiber for their routers, so I wouldn't call that abandoned yet. But, the point is that Google supporting a language does not seem to imply its eventual success.
Venture funding for startups just suffered the biggest crash since dot-com
Anyone following this thread might be interested in watching a few episodes of Emacs Rocks! It's pretty entertaining, and humbling about my own use of any text editor.

http://emacsrocks.com/
The irony is that the inhabitants of the "San Francisco Castro neighborhood" also form an ethnic group by virtue of living in the same place. Notably, it's a gay neighborhood. Takeaway? Gangs rob stores in gay villages. Oh, and cops are racists. Moral? Let people think for themselves, you can't get away from prejudice.
That document has not been released, so that is speculation. I'm sure someone can research their initial filing to find the exact date
Meh. iOS gets all of this trivial localization stuff right (correct timezones including UTC, en-CA spelling dictionaries, not conflating locale and location, etc), even though Apple is often accused of being the poster child for oversimplification
that's what it says in the complaint...but does it actually say this in the YC application?
I agree in principle that Jeremy does not deserve any proceeds of the sale, because he did not contribute to any of the valuable IP that GM wants to acquire.

But there is one serious issue here I don't understand (devil's advocate mode) ....

If Kyle and Jeremy actually founded a Delaware C-corp in Sept 2013 (claim #11), then both their names would be on the officer's list. If that charter specifies a 50/50 split of corporate control, then legally Kyle has no ability to simply tell Jeremey that he's "fired" (claim #14). In fact, I don't think it's legal to fire a significant shareholder outright, unless you have an official company meeting and hold a vote. In this case, it's just 2 guys, so theoretically some impromptu meetup counts as a shareholder meeting. Also note here that the courts don't like having shareholder meetings without records, and in such cases leads the courts to treat such activities as non-corporate events (aka unofficial). In any case, it boils down to what ownership was declared when the C-corp was incorporated.

If someone controls the majority voting rights (or a collection of voters), then they can vote to remove someone from the shareholder's group. However, as far as I know you cannot simply seize ownership from the person you remove from the shareholder's group. The company must then be valued, and the person being ousted must be compensated for the value of his share. Furthermore, you can't simply revise arbitrarily future ownership. Jeremy's holdings would be appropriately diluted whenever fundraising events occur. Weirdly, Jeremy expected to receive his "50%", which as any person should know would have been diluted by investment rounds. Major investors are always involved during these events, and everyone knows exactly what they are getting. The fact that he thought at the end he would "get his 50%" leads me to believe he never cared about asserting ownership until the final big payday arrived.

I think Cruise as a company has a serious problem. If the documentation exists to prove this 50/50 ownership in Sept 2013, there is no way this lawsuit will be smooth sailing.
Every single person in aviation, for starters.
I been associated with (Australian) Government projects and whilst I don't know much about what their own staff got paid, I can tell you not one person there had ever still been in the office by 5:01pm. Managers didn't even have mobile phone numbers of their staff even if they wanted to contact them after hours. People were told not to come to work for things like "multicultural awareness day" and a dozen other special days that never considered a holiday at any business group.

Several of them lamented that every department had "slackers" who'd probably be fired from any real business, but basically couldn't get sacked if they tried due to Government policies.

It's not my thing, but there are reasons people choose these places.
There is logic but is certainly not uniformly applied!
CIA's In-Q-Tel Invested in Docker and Mesosphere
If you're interested in glial cells, this was an excellent book - http://www.amazon.com/The-Other-Brain-Breakthroughs-Revoluti...
And the Delaware Department of State confirms CRUISE AUTOMATION, INC. was incorporated on 9/24/2013.
"Deserves"? I'm sure the engineers here want to be recognized purely on their effort, but that's not how it works.
Cruise hasn't (yet) built fully autonomous cars. Arguably even Google hasn't done it yet.
Of course, if the deal falls through they lose their payout. That's sad. We don't disagree there.

Please explain how GM would renegotiate their equity stakes pro rata? I've never come across this.
Documents Undercut U.S. Case for Taking Mortgage Giant Fannie Mae’s Profits
For a comparision, AWS also makes you pay for prompt support, and all of their services cost money (unlike AppEngine which has a lot of free services).
Ah, yes. Yet another thread in which HN devolves into hyper-religious zealots arguing over their favored denomination of code editor being the one true way.
> would not make a huge difference in the overall storyline so far as to what's coming

If you mean Daenerys I mostly agree. Stannis would not recognise her claim, and would fight her invading forces like whoever's left will do. On the other hand, he'd likely have rather more resources to do it with -- an earlier end to the fighting, possibly ending the war with Robb etc etc.

If you mean the Walkers, though, I rather disagree. Stannis is about duty, and he knows that defending the wall is a big and important job.

Essentially I think the point of most of the action in the books is to leave Westeros as unprepared as possible for the invasions of Dani and the Walkers, and Stannis quickly on the throne means less fighting and dying for everyone.
I don't find that theory very sound. Facts that are unspoken become "things everybody knows but can't speak of", and in a society governed by things everybody knows but can't speak of things that aren't actually true can't be refuted.
To be fair to Le Roux, he switched to the methamphetamine/cocaine trade after his holdings in Hong Kong were seized. It's possible I misinterpreted the article, but it appeared to me that he was trying to recover his previous wealth. It seems like a psychologically normal thing for a multimillionaire who lost millions (but is still wildly wealthy) to attempt to restore that wealth.
Great example of new techniques driving science. Looks promising for translational research!
I wouldn't read too much into that or anything said in the complaint until the actual source documents are filed and we see the response to the complaint filed in court.

That could very well be the nuisance value of the suit for them in their situation. Trying to judge a case from just the initial complaint is far too incomplete a picture to go on. I'd withhold judgement until there are more facts established that both sides have had a chance to argue over.

Almost everything you read in the media is ill-informed analysis of non-lawyers. Haven't had much good coverage since Groklaw.
I'm a UMD student, and I had no idea this existed!

I've been hesitant about reporting holes/vulnerabilities in the school's infrastructure until now, but it's reassuring to see that there are official channels for doing so.
Does Cruise Automation hold any autonomous vehicle patents? I could not find any in Google Patents.
Right, but even without contracts, if there's a document listing that the planned ownership split is 50%, and that they're both listed as cofounders...

It sounds like there's documentation that this was the original agreed upon split. If there's no documentation of some sort of "vesting" or "minimum effort required", I don't see the legal argument for this person to not have this split.

Contracts are documentation of agreements, but the agreements themselves are what hold legal strength. The contracts just help when there's a dispute over the facts.
I think it's good to discuss HN social norms when it's appropriate. Your comment added to the discussion.
Surely your lawyers advised you to keep silent?
To me that first sentence says more about the person writing it than the person described.
"App developers have for years urged the iPhone maker to add fresh discovery tools for users, arguing the crowded market makes it increasingly hard for people to discover new apps or build sustainable businesses."

I think what makes this newsworthy is mostly how long it took Apple to seriously work at implementing this feature.
The facts seem to be more on Jeremy's side than Kyle's except that the application video demonstrates that Jeremy believed Kyle also knew something about robotics.

Regardless of the outcome of this incident, if you apply to Y Combinator with someone who knows the YC partners better than you, and your cofounder decides to push you out, your cofounder will be supported by YC against you. This is now something that every team of founders will have to think harder about now. It will harm founder cohesion which will reduce the success percentage in each batch.

On the other hand, this is a positive signal to people who want to exploit a cofounder to get past the YC application process and then push them out of the company.
I support your version of events. Hang in there!
> So in all scenarios, this does not bode well for them at all. Kyle must be furious, but for the engineers who had no part in this, who there is no question have both ownership and actually wrote code, I feel very sorry for.

Never forget, your equity is a lottery ticket.
It looks like you can search Delaware's database if anyone has a spare $20 to pull information. [1]

[1] https://icis.corp.delaware.gov/Ecorp/EntitySearch/NameSearch...
I was refering to "prevents it entirely by language/compiler-level action on the target". I understand there's a whole spectrum in prevention and mitigation. But "prevents it entirely" is an extreme, just as "formally verified everything" is an extreme.

I'm just ticked off by people lately repeating that ASLR is a bandaid, like it's a bad thing. It's a bandaid, but it can still crash-instead-of-own your app/system with 99.XX% probability. Why complain about it being accepted rather than say: "great, we're nowhere near secure, but at least we have something that works most of the time, now we can work on better protection". Safe runtimes can fail too (CVE-2015-3837 / serialization bug).

Basically, if anyone reads threads like this and thinks "it's a bandaid, it's not needed / it doesn't protect me", then we're all worse off.