WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:02.800 The following is a conversation with Colin Engel. 00:02.800 --> 00:05.840 He's the CEO and cofounder of iRobot, 00:05.840 --> 00:09.680 a robotics company that for 29 years has been creating robots 00:09.680 --> 00:12.600 that operate successfully in the real world. 00:12.600 --> 00:15.600 Not as a demo or on a scale of dozens, 00:15.600 --> 00:18.880 but on a scale of thousands and millions. 00:18.880 --> 00:24.320 As of this year, iRobot has sold more than 25 million robots 00:24.320 --> 00:28.200 to consumers, including the Roomba vacuum cleaning robot, 00:28.200 --> 00:30.000 the Bravo floor mopping robot, 00:30.000 --> 00:34.000 and soon the Terra lawn mowing robot. 00:34.000 --> 00:37.680 29 million robots successfully operating autonomously 00:37.680 --> 00:39.680 in real people's homes. 00:39.680 --> 00:42.120 To me, it's an incredible accomplishment 00:42.120 --> 00:45.120 of science, engineering, logistics, 00:45.120 --> 00:48.800 and all kinds of general entrepreneurial innovation. 00:48.800 --> 00:51.360 Most robotics companies fail. 00:51.360 --> 00:56.880 iRobot has survived and succeeded for 29 years. 00:56.880 --> 01:00.160 I spent all day at iRobot, including a long tour 01:00.160 --> 01:03.520 and conversation with Colin about the history of iRobot, 01:03.520 --> 01:06.720 and then sat down for this podcast conversation 01:06.720 --> 01:08.560 that would have been much longer 01:08.560 --> 01:10.760 if I didn't spend all day learning about 01:10.760 --> 01:13.960 and playing with the various robots in the company's history. 01:13.960 --> 01:17.480 I'll release the video of the tour separately. 01:17.480 --> 01:20.720 Colin, iRobot, its founding team, 01:20.720 --> 01:23.200 its current team, and its mission 01:23.200 --> 01:26.200 has been and continues to be an inspiration to me 01:26.200 --> 01:28.880 and thousands of engineers who are working hard 01:28.880 --> 01:33.000 to create AI systems that help real people. 01:33.000 --> 01:35.640 This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast. 01:35.640 --> 01:38.000 If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube, 01:38.000 --> 01:41.240 give it five stars on iTunes, support it on Patreon, 01:41.240 --> 01:43.280 or simply connect with me on Twitter 01:43.280 --> 01:47.120 at Lex Freedman, spelled F R I D M A N. 01:47.120 --> 01:51.080 And now, here's my conversation with Colin Engel. 01:52.120 --> 01:55.120 In his 1942 short story, Run Around, 01:55.120 --> 01:58.520 from his iRobot collection, Asimov, 01:59.400 --> 02:02.840 proposed the three laws of robotics in order, 02:02.840 --> 02:06.800 don't harm humans, obey orders, protect yourself. 02:06.800 --> 02:07.640 So two questions. 02:07.640 --> 02:11.640 First, does the Roomba follow these three laws? 02:11.640 --> 02:14.760 And also, more seriously, 02:14.760 --> 02:17.120 what role do you hope to see robots take 02:17.120 --> 02:20.280 in modern society and in the future world? 02:20.280 --> 02:25.280 So the three laws are very thought provoking 02:25.720 --> 02:30.720 and require such a profound understanding 02:31.360 --> 02:36.280 of the world a robot lives in, 02:36.280 --> 02:38.360 the ramifications of its action 02:38.360 --> 02:40.040 and its own sense of self, 02:40.040 --> 02:45.040 that it's not a relevant bar, 02:46.640 --> 02:48.360 at least it won't be a relevant bar 02:48.360 --> 02:50.160 for decades to come. 02:50.160 --> 02:54.560 And so, if Roomba follows the three laws, 02:54.560 --> 02:56.840 and I believe it does, 02:58.040 --> 03:00.920 it is designed to help humans not hurt them, 03:00.920 --> 03:03.120 it's designed to be inherently safe, 03:03.120 --> 03:05.960 and we design it to last a long time. 03:07.200 --> 03:11.600 It's not through any AI or intent on the robot's part. 03:11.600 --> 03:14.960 It's because following the three laws 03:14.960 --> 03:18.200 is aligned with being a good robot product. 03:19.600 --> 03:23.120 So I guess it does, 03:23.120 --> 03:27.240 but not by explicit design. 03:27.240 --> 03:28.800 So then the bigger picture, 03:28.800 --> 03:31.560 what role do you hope to see robotics, 03:31.560 --> 03:36.560 robots take in what's currently mostly a world of humans? 03:37.360 --> 03:42.360 We need robots to help us continue 03:42.360 --> 03:44.960 to improve our standard of living. 03:46.160 --> 03:51.160 We need robots because the average age of humanity 03:52.840 --> 03:55.040 is increasing very quickly, 03:55.040 --> 03:59.760 and simply the number of people young enough 03:59.760 --> 04:02.480 and spry enough to care for the elder 04:03.880 --> 04:07.880 growing demographic is inadequate. 04:08.800 --> 04:11.440 And so what is the role of robots? 04:11.440 --> 04:15.000 Today, the role is to make our lives a little easier, 04:15.000 --> 04:17.400 a little cleaner, maybe a little healthier. 04:18.520 --> 04:22.160 But in time, robots are gonna be the difference 04:22.160 --> 04:25.720 between real gut wrenching declines 04:25.720 --> 04:28.360 in our ability to live independently 04:28.360 --> 04:30.280 and maintain our standard of living, 04:30.280 --> 04:34.920 and a future that is the bright one 04:34.920 --> 04:37.520 where we have more control of our lives, 04:37.520 --> 04:40.560 can spend more of our time focused 04:40.560 --> 04:43.280 on activities we choose. 04:44.680 --> 04:48.840 And I'm so honored and excited to be 04:48.840 --> 04:50.520 playing a role in that journey. 04:50.520 --> 04:51.800 So you've given me a tour, 04:51.800 --> 04:54.280 you showed me some of the long histories now, 04:54.280 --> 04:57.280 29 years that iRobot has been at it, 04:57.280 --> 04:59.280 creating some incredible robots. 04:59.280 --> 05:01.280 You showed me PacBot, 05:01.280 --> 05:03.200 you showed me a bunch of other stuff 05:03.200 --> 05:04.600 that led up to Roomba, 05:04.600 --> 05:08.760 that led to Brava and Tara. 05:08.760 --> 05:13.760 So let's skip that incredible history 05:14.080 --> 05:15.080 in the interest of time, 05:15.080 --> 05:16.160 because we already talked about it, 05:16.160 --> 05:18.080 I'll show this incredible footage. 05:18.080 --> 05:22.680 You mentioned elderly and robotics and society. 05:22.680 --> 05:26.320 I think the home is a fascinating place for robots to be. 05:26.320 --> 05:29.840 So where do you see robots in the home? 05:29.840 --> 05:31.680 Currently, I would say, once again, 05:31.680 --> 05:34.560 probably most homes in the world don't have a robot. 05:34.560 --> 05:36.200 So how do you see that changing? 05:36.200 --> 05:39.880 Where do you think is the big initial value add 05:39.880 --> 05:41.960 that robots can do? 05:41.960 --> 05:46.960 So iRobot has sort of over the years narrowed in on the home, 05:48.160 --> 05:53.160 the consumer's home as the place where we want to innovate 05:53.160 --> 05:58.160 and deliver tools that will help a home be 06:00.840 --> 06:04.280 a more automatically maintained place, 06:04.280 --> 06:06.840 a healthier place, a safer place 06:06.840 --> 06:11.520 and perhaps even a more efficient place to be. 06:11.520 --> 06:16.520 And today vacuum we mop, soon we'll be mowing your lawn, 06:17.000 --> 06:21.520 but where things are going is, 06:22.760 --> 06:27.120 when do we get to the point where the home, 06:27.120 --> 06:29.160 not just the robots that live in your home, 06:29.160 --> 06:32.200 but the home itself becomes part of a system 06:32.200 --> 06:36.000 that maintains itself and plays an active role 06:36.000 --> 06:40.800 in caring for and helping the people live in that home. 06:40.800 --> 06:43.240 And I see everything that we're doing 06:43.240 --> 06:46.200 as steps along the path toward that future. 06:46.200 --> 06:47.760 So what are the steps? 06:47.760 --> 06:51.760 So if we can summarize some of the history of Roomba, 06:53.280 --> 06:55.560 you've mentioned, and maybe you can elaborate on it, 06:55.560 --> 06:57.280 but you mentioned that the early days 06:57.280 --> 07:02.280 were really taking a robot from something that works 07:02.360 --> 07:04.920 either in the lab or something that works in the field 07:04.920 --> 07:09.920 that helps soldiers do the difficult work they do 07:10.240 --> 07:12.680 to actually be in the hands of consumers 07:12.680 --> 07:15.680 and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of robots 07:15.680 --> 07:18.520 that don't break down over how much people love them 07:18.520 --> 07:21.480 over months of very extensive use. 07:21.480 --> 07:22.880 So that was the big first step. 07:22.880 --> 07:26.040 And then the second big step was the ability 07:26.040 --> 07:29.920 to sense the environment, to build a map, to localize, 07:29.920 --> 07:32.600 to be able to build a picture of the home 07:32.600 --> 07:34.640 that the human can then attach labels to 07:34.640 --> 07:38.440 in terms of giving some semantic knowledge 07:38.440 --> 07:40.920 to the robot about its environment. 07:40.920 --> 07:44.880 Okay, so that's like a huge, two big, huge steps. 07:46.280 --> 07:47.560 Maybe you can comment on them, 07:47.560 --> 07:51.080 but also what is the next step 07:51.080 --> 07:54.760 of making a robot part of the home? 07:54.760 --> 07:55.600 Sure. 07:55.600 --> 08:00.600 So the goal is to make a home that takes care of itself, 08:01.320 --> 08:03.720 takes care of the people in the home 08:03.720 --> 08:07.880 and gives a user an experience of just living their life 08:07.880 --> 08:10.880 and the home is somehow doing the right thing, 08:10.880 --> 08:14.160 turning on and off lights when you leave, 08:14.160 --> 08:17.280 cleaning up the environment. 08:17.280 --> 08:22.280 And we went from robots that were right in the lab, 08:22.280 --> 08:26.760 but were both too expensive and not sufficiently capable 08:26.760 --> 08:30.480 to ever do an acceptable job of anything 08:30.480 --> 08:34.080 other than being a toy or a curio in your home 08:34.080 --> 08:39.080 to something that was both affordable 08:38.880 --> 08:42.440 and sufficiently effective to drive, 08:42.440 --> 08:45.360 be above threshold and drive purchase intent. 08:47.520 --> 08:50.000 Now we've disrupted the intent of the work 08:50.000 --> 08:54.400 and now we've disrupted the entire vacuuming industry. 08:55.480 --> 08:59.840 The number one selling vacuums, for example, in the US 08:59.840 --> 09:02.480 are Roombas, so not robot vacuums, 09:02.480 --> 09:05.160 but vacuums and that's really crazy and weird. 09:05.160 --> 09:08.080 We need to pause that, I mean, that's incredible. 09:08.080 --> 09:10.520 That's incredible that a robot 09:10.520 --> 09:15.520 is the number one selling thing that does something. 09:15.560 --> 09:16.400 Yep. 09:16.400 --> 09:18.240 Something as essential as vacuuming. 09:18.240 --> 09:20.120 So we're... Congratulations. 09:20.120 --> 09:20.960 Thank you. 09:20.960 --> 09:22.440 It's still kind of fun to say, 09:22.440 --> 09:26.600 but just because this was a crazy idea 09:26.600 --> 09:30.920 that just started in a room here, 09:30.920 --> 09:33.800 we're like, do you think we can do this? 09:35.000 --> 09:36.160 Hey, let's give it a try. 09:38.000 --> 09:40.440 But now the robots are starting 09:40.440 --> 09:42.840 to understand their environment. 09:42.840 --> 09:45.280 And if you think about the next step, 09:45.280 --> 09:47.880 there's two dimensions. 09:48.720 --> 09:53.040 I've been working so hard since the beginning of iRobot 09:53.040 --> 09:55.080 to make robots are autonomous, 09:55.080 --> 09:59.120 that they're smart enough and understand their task enough 09:59.120 --> 10:02.480 that they can just go do it without human involvement. 10:04.160 --> 10:07.440 Now what I'm really excited and working on 10:07.440 --> 10:09.520 is how do I make them less autonomous? 10:09.520 --> 10:14.520 Meaning that the robot is supposed to be your partner, 10:15.080 --> 10:20.080 not this automaton that just goes and does what a robot does. 10:20.240 --> 10:22.440 And so that if you tell it, 10:22.440 --> 10:27.160 hey, I just dropped some flour by the fridge in the kitchen. 10:27.160 --> 10:29.000 Can you deal with it? 10:29.000 --> 10:31.840 Wouldn't be awesome if the right thing just happened 10:31.840 --> 10:35.240 based on that utterance. 10:35.240 --> 10:37.960 And to some extent that's less autonomous 10:37.960 --> 10:40.120 because it's actually listening to you, 10:40.120 --> 10:44.400 understanding the context and intent of the sentence, 10:44.400 --> 10:49.400 mapping it against its understanding of the home it lives in 10:50.040 --> 10:52.680 and knowing what to do. 10:52.680 --> 10:56.360 And so that's an area of research. 10:56.360 --> 10:59.360 It's an area where we're starting to roll out features. 10:59.360 --> 11:02.880 You can now tell your robot to clean up the kitchen 11:02.880 --> 11:05.880 and it knows what the kitchen is and can do that. 11:05.880 --> 11:09.360 And that's sort of 1.0 of where we're going. 11:10.440 --> 11:12.480 The other cool thing is that 11:12.480 --> 11:14.640 we're starting to know where stuff is. 11:14.640 --> 11:16.040 And why is that important? 11:16.040 --> 11:21.040 Well, robots are supposed to have arms, right? 11:21.520 --> 11:24.200 Data had an arm, Rosie had an arm, 11:24.200 --> 11:25.240 Robbie the robot had an arm. 11:25.240 --> 11:26.680 I mean, robots are, you know, 11:26.680 --> 11:29.560 they are physical things that move around in an environment 11:29.560 --> 11:31.280 they're supposed to like do work. 11:31.280 --> 11:34.120 And if you think about it, 11:34.120 --> 11:35.440 if a robot doesn't know anything, 11:35.440 --> 11:38.760 where anything is, why should it have an arm? 11:38.760 --> 11:43.760 But with this new dawn of home understanding 11:44.320 --> 11:47.680 that we're starting to go enjoy, 11:47.680 --> 11:49.320 I know where the kitchen is. 11:49.320 --> 11:52.040 I might in the future know where the refrigerator is. 11:52.040 --> 11:55.280 I might, if I had an arm, be able to find the handle, 11:55.280 --> 11:58.440 open it and even get myself a beer. 11:58.440 --> 12:01.920 Obviously that's one of the true dreams of robotics 12:01.920 --> 12:03.520 is to have robots bringing us a beer 12:03.520 --> 12:05.280 while we watch television. 12:05.280 --> 12:10.280 But I think that that new category of tasks 12:11.000 --> 12:14.240 where physical manipulation, robot arms 12:14.240 --> 12:19.240 is just a popery of new opportunity and excitement. 12:20.200 --> 12:23.800 And you see humans as a crucial part of that. 12:23.800 --> 12:26.280 So you kind of mentioned that. 12:26.280 --> 12:28.960 And I personally find that a really compelling idea. 12:28.960 --> 12:33.960 I think full autonomy can only take us so far, 12:33.960 --> 12:35.360 especially in the home. 12:35.360 --> 12:38.920 So you see humans as helping the robot understand 12:38.920 --> 12:42.600 or give deeper meaning to the spatial information. 12:43.600 --> 12:45.680 Right, it's a partnership. 12:46.800 --> 12:51.800 The robot is supposed to operate according to descriptors 12:52.800 --> 12:55.620 that you would use to describe your own home. 12:57.040 --> 13:02.040 The robot is supposed to in lieu of better direction 13:02.040 --> 13:03.840 kind of go about its routine, 13:03.840 --> 13:07.520 which ought to be basically right 13:07.520 --> 13:12.200 and lead to a home maintained 13:12.200 --> 13:14.840 in a way that it's learned you like, 13:14.840 --> 13:19.840 but also be perpetually ready to take direction 13:21.440 --> 13:26.440 that would activate a different set of behaviors or actions 13:26.880 --> 13:28.880 to meet a current need 13:28.880 --> 13:32.320 to the extent it could actually perform that task. 13:32.320 --> 13:33.560 So I gotta ask you, 13:33.560 --> 13:36.960 I think this is a fundamental and a fascinating question 13:36.960 --> 13:39.760 because iRobot has been a successful company 13:39.760 --> 13:42.320 and a rare successful robotics company. 13:42.320 --> 13:46.720 So Anki, Gibo, Mayfield Robotics with a Robot Curry, 13:46.720 --> 13:49.160 SciFi Works, Rethink Robotics. 13:49.160 --> 13:51.320 These were robotics companies that were founded 13:51.320 --> 13:52.920 and run by brilliant people. 13:54.000 --> 13:58.760 But all very unfortunately, at least for us roboticists, 13:58.760 --> 14:02.120 and all went out of business recently. 14:02.120 --> 14:05.160 So why do you think they didn't last longer? 14:05.160 --> 14:07.000 Why do you think it is so hard 14:07.000 --> 14:10.680 to keep a robotics company alive? 14:10.680 --> 14:14.160 You know, I say this only partially in jest 14:14.160 --> 14:16.760 that back in the day before Roomba, 14:17.840 --> 14:22.840 you know, I was a high tech entrepreneur building robots, 14:23.920 --> 14:26.440 but it wasn't until I became a vacuum cleaner salesman 14:26.440 --> 14:29.420 that we had any success. 14:29.420 --> 14:34.240 So I mean, the point is technology alone 14:34.240 --> 14:37.680 doesn't equal a successful business. 14:37.680 --> 14:42.680 We need to go and find the compelling need 14:43.600 --> 14:45.920 where the robot that we're creating 14:47.640 --> 14:52.640 can deliver clearly more value 14:52.800 --> 14:55.440 to the end user than it costs. 14:55.440 --> 14:59.040 And this is not a marginal thing 14:59.040 --> 15:01.800 where you're looking at the skin, like, it's close. 15:01.800 --> 15:04.380 Maybe we can hold our breath and make it work. 15:04.380 --> 15:09.380 It's clearly more value than the cost of the robot 15:11.560 --> 15:13.920 to bring, you know, in the store. 15:13.920 --> 15:17.360 And I think that the challenge has been finding 15:17.360 --> 15:22.360 those businesses where that's true 15:22.360 --> 15:26.400 that's true in a sustainable fashion. 15:28.240 --> 15:33.240 You know, when you get into entertainment style things, 15:34.600 --> 15:38.240 you could be the cat's meow one year, 15:38.240 --> 15:42.440 but 85% of toys, regardless of their merit, 15:43.400 --> 15:45.640 fail to make it to their second season. 15:45.640 --> 15:47.720 It's just super hard to do so. 15:47.720 --> 15:52.720 And so that that's just a tough business. 15:53.800 --> 15:58.800 And there's been a lot of experimentation around 15:59.200 --> 16:02.640 what is the right type of social companion? 16:02.640 --> 16:05.840 What is the right robot in the home 16:05.840 --> 16:10.840 that is doing something other than tasks people do every week 16:14.560 --> 16:16.400 that they'd rather not do? 16:16.400 --> 16:20.880 And I'm not sure we've got it all figured out right. 16:20.880 --> 16:22.960 And so that you get brilliant roboticists 16:22.960 --> 16:25.680 with super interesting robots 16:25.680 --> 16:29.800 that ultimately don't quite have 16:29.800 --> 16:34.040 that magical user experience and thus the, 16:36.480 --> 16:40.560 that value benefit equation remains ambiguous. 16:40.560 --> 16:43.960 So you as somebody who dreams of robots, 16:43.960 --> 16:45.720 you know, changing the world, 16:45.720 --> 16:46.880 what's your estimate? 16:47.840 --> 16:52.840 Why, how big is the space of applications 16:53.200 --> 16:55.800 that fit the criteria that you just described 16:55.800 --> 16:58.080 where you can really demonstrate 16:58.080 --> 17:00.520 an obvious significant value 17:00.520 --> 17:04.620 over the alternative non robotic solution? 17:05.720 --> 17:08.680 Well, I think that we're just about none of the way 17:10.000 --> 17:13.360 to achieving the potential of robotics at home. 17:13.360 --> 17:18.360 But we have to do it in a really eyes wide open, 17:20.400 --> 17:21.920 honest fashion. 17:21.920 --> 17:25.400 And so another way to put that is the potential is infinite 17:25.400 --> 17:27.040 because we did take a few steps 17:27.040 --> 17:29.640 but you're saying those steps are just very initial steps. 17:29.640 --> 17:32.560 So the Roomba is a hugely successful product 17:32.560 --> 17:34.440 but you're saying that's just the very, very beginning. 17:34.440 --> 17:36.520 That's just the very, very beginning. 17:36.520 --> 17:37.960 It's the foot in the door. 17:37.960 --> 17:40.840 And, you know, I think I was lucky 17:40.840 --> 17:45.120 that in the early days of robotics, 17:45.120 --> 17:48.360 people would ask me, when are you gonna clean my floor? 17:48.360 --> 17:52.240 It was something that I grew up saying, 17:53.560 --> 17:54.800 I got all these really good ideas 17:54.800 --> 17:58.080 but everyone seems to want their floor clean. 17:58.080 --> 18:02.480 And so maybe we should do that. 18:02.480 --> 18:03.320 Yeah, your good ideas. 18:03.320 --> 18:05.840 Earn the right to do the next thing after that. 18:05.840 --> 18:10.160 So the good ideas have to match with the desire of the people 18:10.160 --> 18:13.280 and then the actual cost has to like the business, 18:13.280 --> 18:16.640 the financial aspect has to all match together. 18:16.640 --> 18:20.160 Yeah, during our partnership 18:20.160 --> 18:22.200 back a number of years ago with Johnson Wax, 18:22.200 --> 18:27.200 they would explain to me that they would go into homes 18:29.480 --> 18:32.520 and just watch how people lived 18:32.520 --> 18:35.560 and try to figure out what were they doing 18:35.560 --> 18:39.960 that they really didn't really like to do 18:39.960 --> 18:42.440 but they had to do it frequently enough 18:42.440 --> 18:47.440 that it was top of mind and understood as a burden. 18:51.720 --> 18:53.000 Hey, let's make a product 18:54.480 --> 18:58.480 or come up with a solution to make that pain point 18:58.480 --> 19:02.040 less challenging. 19:02.040 --> 19:07.040 And sometimes we do certain burdens so often as a society 19:07.400 --> 19:09.400 that we actually don't even realize, 19:09.400 --> 19:10.680 like it's actually hard to see 19:10.680 --> 19:13.200 that that burden is something that could be removed. 19:13.200 --> 19:15.760 So it does require just going into the home 19:15.760 --> 19:19.560 and staring at, wait, how do I actually live life? 19:19.560 --> 19:21.080 What are the pain points? 19:21.080 --> 19:26.080 Yeah, and it getting those insights is a lot harder 19:26.400 --> 19:29.360 than it would seem it should be in retrospect. 19:29.360 --> 19:33.120 So how hard on that point, 19:33.120 --> 19:37.480 I mean, one of the big challenges of robotics 19:37.480 --> 19:40.240 is driving the cost to something, 19:40.240 --> 19:42.240 driving the cost down to something 19:42.240 --> 19:45.680 that consumers, people would afford. 19:45.680 --> 19:48.880 So people would be less likely to buy a Roomba 19:48.880 --> 19:52.280 if it costs $500,000, right? 19:52.280 --> 19:55.840 Which is probably sort of what a Roomba would cost 19:55.840 --> 19:58.040 several decades ago. 19:58.040 --> 20:02.200 So how do you drive, which I mentioned is very difficult. 20:02.200 --> 20:04.200 How do you drive the cost of a Roomba 20:04.200 --> 20:07.920 or a robot down such that people would want to buy it? 20:07.920 --> 20:09.720 When I started building robots, 20:09.720 --> 20:12.240 the cost of the robot had a lot to do 20:12.240 --> 20:15.480 with the amount of time it took to build it. 20:15.480 --> 20:18.400 And so that we would build our robots out of aluminum, 20:18.400 --> 20:21.160 I would go spend my time in the machine shop 20:21.160 --> 20:22.840 on the milling machine, 20:23.840 --> 20:28.000 cutting out the parts and so forth. 20:28.000 --> 20:29.720 And then when we got into the toy industry, 20:29.720 --> 20:34.520 I realized that if we were building at scale, 20:34.520 --> 20:36.000 I could determine the cost of the Roomba 20:36.000 --> 20:38.920 instead of adding up all the hours to mill out the parts, 20:38.920 --> 20:40.360 but by weighing it. 20:42.080 --> 20:44.200 And that's liberating. 20:44.200 --> 20:49.200 You can say, wow, the world has just changed 20:49.560 --> 20:53.160 as I think about construction in a different way. 20:53.160 --> 20:56.880 The 3D CAD tools that are available to us today, 20:56.880 --> 21:01.680 the operating at scale where I can do tooling 21:01.680 --> 21:06.680 and injection mold, an arbitrarily complicated part, 21:07.080 --> 21:09.800 and the cost is going to be basically 21:09.800 --> 21:12.560 the weight of the plastic in that part 21:13.920 --> 21:16.360 is incredibly exciting and liberating 21:16.360 --> 21:18.560 and opens up all sorts of opportunities. 21:18.560 --> 21:23.560 And for the sensing part of it, where we are today 21:23.560 --> 21:28.560 is instead of trying to build skin, 21:29.280 --> 21:31.440 which is like really hard for a long time. 21:31.440 --> 21:36.440 I spent creating strategies and ideas 21:38.240 --> 21:42.720 around how could we duplicate the skin on the human body 21:42.720 --> 21:45.360 because it's such an amazing sensor. 21:47.880 --> 21:49.600 Instead of going down that path, 21:49.600 --> 21:53.000 why don't we focus on vision? 21:54.000 --> 21:59.000 And how many of the problems that face a robot 22:00.080 --> 22:04.880 trying to do real work could be solved 22:04.880 --> 22:08.480 with a cheap camera and a big ass computer? 22:09.480 --> 22:12.440 And Moore's Law continues to work. 22:12.440 --> 22:16.520 The cell phone industry, the mobile industry 22:16.520 --> 22:18.800 is giving us better and better tools 22:18.800 --> 22:21.120 that can run on these embedded computers. 22:21.120 --> 22:26.120 And I think we passed an important moment, 22:26.600 --> 22:31.600 maybe two years ago, where you could put 22:32.760 --> 22:37.520 machine vision capable processors on robots 22:37.520 --> 22:39.640 at consumer price points. 22:39.640 --> 22:43.040 And I was waiting for it to happen. 22:43.040 --> 22:46.600 We avoided putting lasers on our robots 22:46.600 --> 22:51.600 to do navigation and instead spent years researching 22:51.840 --> 22:54.640 how to do vision based navigation 22:54.640 --> 22:58.440 because you could just see it 22:58.440 --> 23:01.640 where these technology trends were going 23:01.640 --> 23:05.880 and between injection molded plastic 23:05.880 --> 23:08.040 and a camera with a computer 23:08.040 --> 23:10.840 capable of running machine learning 23:10.840 --> 23:12.560 and visual object recognition, 23:12.560 --> 23:15.560 I could build an incredibly affordable, 23:15.560 --> 23:18.760 incredibly capable robot 23:18.760 --> 23:21.240 and that's gonna be the future. 23:21.240 --> 23:23.440 So you know, on that point with a small tangent 23:23.440 --> 23:25.000 but I think an important one, 23:25.000 --> 23:27.600 another industry in which I would say 23:27.600 --> 23:31.880 the only other industry in which there is automation 23:31.880 --> 23:34.840 actually touching people's lives today 23:34.840 --> 23:36.520 is autonomous vehicles. 23:37.640 --> 23:42.360 What the vision is described of using computer vision 23:42.360 --> 23:44.520 and using cheap camera sensors, 23:44.520 --> 23:48.320 there's a debate on that of LiDAR versus computer vision 23:48.320 --> 23:53.320 and sort of the Elon Musk famously said 23:53.320 --> 23:58.320 that LiDAR is a crutch that really in the long term, 23:58.440 --> 24:00.880 camera only is the right solution 24:00.880 --> 24:03.520 which echoes some of the ideas you're expressing. 24:03.520 --> 24:05.120 Of course, the domain 24:05.120 --> 24:07.720 in terms of its safety criticality is different. 24:07.720 --> 24:10.720 But what do you think about that approach 24:10.720 --> 24:13.480 in the autonomous vehicle space? 24:13.480 --> 24:15.200 And in general, do you see a connection 24:15.200 --> 24:18.560 between the incredible real world challenges 24:18.560 --> 24:20.800 you have to solve in the home with Roomba 24:20.800 --> 24:23.000 and I saw a demonstration of some of them, 24:23.000 --> 24:27.920 corner cases literally and autonomous vehicles. 24:27.920 --> 24:31.720 So there's absolutely a tremendous overlap 24:31.720 --> 24:35.520 between both the problems, you know, 24:35.520 --> 24:38.680 a robot vacuum and autonomous vehicle are trying to solve 24:38.680 --> 24:41.880 and the tools and the types of sensors 24:41.880 --> 24:46.720 that are being applied in the pursuit of the solutions. 24:48.040 --> 24:53.040 In my world, my environment is actually much harder 24:54.680 --> 24:57.320 than the environment in automobile travels. 24:57.320 --> 25:02.320 We don't have roads, we have t shirts, we have steps, 25:02.720 --> 25:07.120 we have a near infinite number of patterns and colors 25:07.120 --> 25:10.200 and surface textures on the floor. 25:10.200 --> 25:12.560 Especially from a visual perspective. 25:12.560 --> 25:14.760 Yeah, visually it's really tough. 25:14.760 --> 25:18.880 Is an infinitely variable. 25:18.880 --> 25:22.560 On the other hand, safety is way easier on the inside. 25:22.560 --> 25:26.440 My robots, they're not very heavy, 25:26.440 --> 25:28.280 they're not very fast. 25:28.280 --> 25:31.480 If they bump into your foot, you think it's funny. 25:32.720 --> 25:36.920 And, you know, and autonomous vehicles 25:36.920 --> 25:39.400 kind of have the inverse problem. 25:39.400 --> 25:44.400 And so that for me saying vision is the future, 25:45.920 --> 25:47.800 I can say that without reservation. 25:49.480 --> 25:54.480 For autonomous vehicles, I think I believe what Elon's saying 25:55.360 --> 25:59.040 about the future is ultimately gonna be vision. 25:59.040 --> 26:01.000 Maybe if we put a cheap lighter on there 26:01.000 --> 26:03.280 as a backup sensor, it might not be the worst idea 26:03.280 --> 26:04.120 in the world. 26:04.120 --> 26:04.960 So the stakes are much higher. 26:04.960 --> 26:05.800 The stakes are much higher. 26:05.800 --> 26:08.200 You have to be much more careful thinking through 26:08.200 --> 26:10.720 how far away that future is. 26:10.720 --> 26:14.240 Right, but I think that the primary 26:16.080 --> 26:19.320 environmental understanding sensor 26:19.320 --> 26:21.760 is going to be a visual system. 26:21.760 --> 26:23.000 Visual system. 26:23.000 --> 26:25.560 So on that point, well, let me ask, 26:25.560 --> 26:29.440 do you hope there's an iRobot robot in every home 26:29.440 --> 26:30.920 in the world one day? 26:31.880 --> 26:34.880 I expect there to be at least one iRobot robot 26:34.880 --> 26:36.440 in every home. 26:36.440 --> 26:41.160 You know, we've sold 25 million robots. 26:41.160 --> 26:44.600 So we're in about 10% of US homes, 26:44.600 --> 26:45.760 which is a great start. 26:47.120 --> 26:51.080 But I think that when we think about the numbers 26:51.080 --> 26:55.840 of things that robots can do, you know, 26:55.840 --> 26:58.560 today I can vacuum your floor, mop your floor, 26:58.560 --> 27:01.240 cut your lawn or soon we'll be able to cut your lawn. 27:01.240 --> 27:06.240 But there are more things that we could do in the home. 27:06.720 --> 27:11.520 And I hope that we continue using the techniques 27:11.520 --> 27:14.480 I described around exploiting computer vision 27:14.480 --> 27:18.680 and low cost manufacturing that we'll be able 27:18.680 --> 27:22.680 to create these solutions at affordable price points. 27:22.680 --> 27:25.600 So let me ask, on that point of a robot in every home, 27:25.600 --> 27:26.880 that's my dream as well. 27:26.880 --> 27:28.400 I'd love to see that. 27:28.400 --> 27:31.880 I think the possibilities there are indeed 27:31.880 --> 27:34.560 infinite positive possibilities. 27:34.560 --> 27:39.560 But in our current culture, no thanks to science fiction 27:39.800 --> 27:44.720 and so on, there's a serious kind of hesitation 27:44.720 --> 27:47.120 and anxiety, concern about robots 27:47.120 --> 27:50.080 and also a concern about privacy. 27:51.480 --> 27:54.040 And it's a fascinating question to me 27:54.040 --> 27:59.040 why that concern is amongst a certain group of people 27:59.600 --> 28:02.880 is as intense as it is. 28:02.880 --> 28:04.280 So you have to think about it 28:04.280 --> 28:05.520 because it's a serious concern, 28:05.520 --> 28:08.040 but I wonder how you address it best. 28:08.040 --> 28:09.840 So from a perspective of a vision sensor, 28:09.840 --> 28:14.200 so robots that move about the home and sense the world, 28:14.200 --> 28:19.200 how do you alleviate people's privacy concerns? 28:19.720 --> 28:22.880 How do you make sure that they can trust iRobot 28:22.880 --> 28:25.360 and the robots that they share their home with? 28:26.640 --> 28:28.160 I think that's a great question. 28:28.160 --> 28:33.160 And we've really leaned way forward on this 28:33.760 --> 28:38.760 because given our vision as to the role the company 28:38.880 --> 28:40.720 intends to play in the home, 28:43.000 --> 28:45.480 really for us, make or break is, 28:45.480 --> 28:50.480 can our approach be trusted to protecting the data 28:50.480 --> 28:53.560 and the privacy of the people who have our robots? 28:53.560 --> 28:56.920 And so we've gone out publicly 28:56.920 --> 29:00.440 with a privacy manifesto stating we'll never sell your data. 29:00.440 --> 29:05.440 We've adopted GDPR, not just where GDPR is required, 29:05.520 --> 29:10.520 but globally, we have ensured that images 29:16.640 --> 29:18.080 don't leave the robot. 29:18.080 --> 29:22.120 So processing data from the visual sensors 29:22.120 --> 29:23.680 happens locally on the robot 29:23.680 --> 29:28.680 and only semantic knowledge of the home 29:29.520 --> 29:32.720 with the consumer's consent is sent up. 29:32.720 --> 29:34.480 We show you what we know 29:34.480 --> 29:39.480 and are trying to go use data as an enabler 29:41.560 --> 29:44.120 for the performance of the robots 29:44.120 --> 29:49.120 with the informed consent and understanding 29:50.040 --> 29:52.440 of the people who own those robots. 29:52.440 --> 29:56.880 And we take it very seriously. 29:56.880 --> 30:01.880 And ultimately, we think that by showing a customer 30:01.880 --> 30:06.880 that if you let us build a semantic map of your home 30:07.360 --> 30:09.000 and know where the rooms are, 30:09.000 --> 30:11.760 well, then you can say clean the kitchen. 30:11.760 --> 30:13.720 If you don't want the robot to do that, 30:13.720 --> 30:14.560 don't make the map, 30:14.560 --> 30:17.000 it'll do its best job cleaning your home, 30:17.000 --> 30:18.640 but it won't be able to do that. 30:18.640 --> 30:20.280 And if you ever want us to forget 30:20.280 --> 30:22.080 that we know that it's your kitchen, 30:22.080 --> 30:26.680 you can have confidence that we will do that for you. 30:26.680 --> 30:31.680 So we're trying to go and be a sort of a data 2.0 30:34.520 --> 30:37.680 perspective company where we treat the data 30:37.680 --> 30:40.800 that the robots have of the consumer's home 30:40.800 --> 30:43.200 as if it were the consumer's data 30:43.200 --> 30:47.360 and that they have rights to it. 30:47.360 --> 30:50.960 So we think by being the good guys on this front, 30:50.960 --> 30:53.840 we can build the trust and thus be entrusted 30:55.120 --> 31:00.120 to enable robots to do more things that are thoughtful. 31:00.200 --> 31:04.520 You think people's worries will diminish over time? 31:04.520 --> 31:06.840 As a society, broadly speaking, 31:06.840 --> 31:09.320 do you think you can win over trust, 31:09.320 --> 31:10.640 not just for the company, 31:10.640 --> 31:14.880 but just the comfort of people have with AI in their home 31:14.880 --> 31:17.040 enriching their lives in some way? 31:17.040 --> 31:19.560 I think we're an interesting place today 31:19.560 --> 31:22.400 where it's less about winning them over 31:22.400 --> 31:26.240 and more about finding a way to talk about privacy 31:26.240 --> 31:28.840 in a way that more people can understand. 31:28.840 --> 31:30.920 I would tell you that today, 31:30.920 --> 31:33.320 when there's a privacy breach, 31:33.320 --> 31:37.040 people get very upset and then go to the store 31:37.040 --> 31:38.320 and buy the cheapest thing, 31:38.320 --> 31:41.000 paying no attention to whether or not the products 31:41.000 --> 31:44.640 that they're buying honor privacy standards or not. 31:44.640 --> 31:48.600 In fact, if I put on the package of my Roomba, 31:50.080 --> 31:53.640 the privacy commitments that we have, 31:53.640 --> 31:58.640 I would sell less than I would if I did nothing at all 31:58.720 --> 32:00.400 and that needs to change. 32:00.400 --> 32:02.880 So it's not a question about earning trust. 32:02.880 --> 32:05.000 I think that's necessary but not sufficient. 32:05.000 --> 32:08.440 We need to figure out how to have a comfortable set 32:08.440 --> 32:13.440 of what is the grade A meat standard applied to privacy 32:14.200 --> 32:18.400 that customers can trust and understand 32:18.400 --> 32:20.480 and then use in the buying decisions. 32:23.040 --> 32:25.520 That will reward companies for good behavior 32:25.520 --> 32:29.880 and that will ultimately be how this moves forward. 32:29.880 --> 32:32.680 And maybe be part of the conversation 32:32.680 --> 32:34.800 between regular people about what it means, 32:34.800 --> 32:36.280 what privacy means. 32:36.280 --> 32:38.400 If you have some standards, you can say, 32:38.400 --> 32:41.080 you can start talking about who's following them, 32:41.080 --> 32:42.680 who's not, have more. 32:42.680 --> 32:45.440 Because most people are actually quite clueless 32:45.440 --> 32:47.320 about all aspects of artificial intelligence 32:47.320 --> 32:48.400 or data collection and so on. 32:48.400 --> 32:49.920 It would be nice to change that 32:49.920 --> 32:52.760 for people to understand the good that AI can do 32:52.760 --> 32:56.520 and it's not some system that's trying to steal 32:56.520 --> 32:58.760 all the most sensitive data. 32:58.760 --> 33:02.640 Do you think, do you dream of a Roomba 33:02.640 --> 33:05.240 with human level intelligence one day? 33:05.240 --> 33:10.240 So you've mentioned a very successful localization 33:10.520 --> 33:11.880 and mapping of the environment, 33:11.880 --> 33:14.360 being able to do some basic communication 33:14.360 --> 33:16.560 to say go clean the kitchen. 33:16.560 --> 33:21.360 Do you see in your maybe more bored moments, 33:22.880 --> 33:24.840 once you get the beer, 33:24.840 --> 33:27.000 just sit back with that beer 33:27.000 --> 33:30.800 and have a chat on a Friday night with the Roomba 33:30.800 --> 33:32.840 about how your day went. 33:34.120 --> 33:37.560 So through your latter question, absolutely. 33:38.640 --> 33:40.720 To your former question as to whether Roomba 33:40.720 --> 33:43.680 can have human level intelligence, not in my lifetime. 33:45.200 --> 33:48.440 You can have you, you can have a great conversation, 33:49.680 --> 33:51.960 a meaningful conversation with a robot 33:53.920 --> 33:55.400 without it having anything 33:55.400 --> 33:57.760 that resembles human level intelligence. 33:57.760 --> 34:02.760 And I think that as long as you realize 34:02.800 --> 34:05.280 that conversation is not about the robot 34:06.360 --> 34:08.600 and making the robot feel good. 34:08.600 --> 34:13.600 That conversation is about you learning interesting things 34:14.880 --> 34:18.400 that make you feel like the conversation 34:18.400 --> 34:21.240 that you had with the robot is 34:23.800 --> 34:27.280 a pretty awesome way of learning something. 34:27.280 --> 34:30.800 And it could be about what kind of day your pet had. 34:30.800 --> 34:35.040 It could be about, how can I make my home 34:35.040 --> 34:36.160 more energy efficient? 34:36.160 --> 34:39.600 It could be about, if I'm thinking about 34:39.600 --> 34:41.720 climbing Mount Everest, what should I know? 34:44.320 --> 34:46.480 And that's a very doable thing. 34:48.600 --> 34:51.480 But if I think that that conversation 34:51.480 --> 34:53.640 I'm gonna have with the robot is, 34:53.640 --> 34:56.760 I'm gonna be rewarded by making the robot happy. 34:56.760 --> 34:58.720 But I could have just put a button on the robot 34:58.720 --> 35:00.280 that you could push and the robot would smile 35:00.280 --> 35:02.120 and that sort of thing. 35:02.120 --> 35:04.160 So I think you need to think about the question 35:04.160 --> 35:06.680 in the right way. 35:06.680 --> 35:11.520 And robots can be awesomely effective 35:11.520 --> 35:14.400 at helping people feel less isolated, 35:14.400 --> 35:17.520 learn more about the home that they live in 35:17.520 --> 35:21.920 and fill some of those lonely gaps 35:21.920 --> 35:23.760 that we wish we were engaged 35:23.760 --> 35:25.640 learning cool stuff about our world. 35:25.640 --> 35:30.640 Last question, if you could hang out for a day 35:30.640 --> 35:34.640 with a robot from science fiction, movies, books 35:34.640 --> 35:39.640 and safely pick, safely pick its brain for that day, 35:39.640 --> 35:41.640 who would you pick? 35:41.640 --> 35:42.640 Data. 35:42.640 --> 35:43.640 Data. 35:43.640 --> 35:44.640 From Star Trek. 35:44.640 --> 35:48.640 I think that data is really smart. 35:48.640 --> 35:52.640 Data's been through a lot trying to go and save the galaxy 35:52.640 --> 35:57.640 and I'm really interested actually in emotion and robotics. 35:58.640 --> 36:00.640 And I think you'd have a lot to say about that 36:00.640 --> 36:05.640 because I believe actually that emotion plays 36:05.640 --> 36:10.640 an incredibly useful role in doing reasonable things 36:11.640 --> 36:14.640 in situations where we have imperfect understanding 36:14.640 --> 36:15.640 of what's going on. 36:15.640 --> 36:18.640 In social situations when there's imperfect information. 36:18.640 --> 36:23.640 In social situations also in competitive 36:23.640 --> 36:25.640 or dangerous situations, 36:26.640 --> 36:30.640 that we have emotion for a reason. 36:30.640 --> 36:35.640 And so that ultimately, my theory is that as robots 36:35.640 --> 36:36.640 get smarter and smarter, 36:36.640 --> 36:38.640 they're actually going to get more emotional 36:38.640 --> 36:46.640 because you can't actually survive on pure logic. 36:46.640 --> 36:51.640 Because only a very tiny fraction of the situations 36:51.640 --> 36:55.640 we find ourselves in can be resolved reasonably with logic. 36:55.640 --> 36:57.640 And so I think data would have a lot to say about that 36:57.640 --> 36:59.640 and so I could find out whether he agrees. 36:59.640 --> 37:02.640 What, if you could ask data one question 37:02.640 --> 37:05.640 and you would get a deep, honest answer to, 37:05.640 --> 37:06.640 what would you ask? 37:06.640 --> 37:08.640 What's Captain Picard really like? 37:08.640 --> 37:12.640 Okay, I think that's the perfect way to end the call 37:12.640 --> 37:14.640 and thank you so much for talking today. 37:14.640 --> 37:16.640 I really appreciate it. 37:16.640 --> 37:45.640 My pleasure.