are now able to buy more german exports again, which, for german companies, is partly making up for the decline in trade with china. but it is a slow process because the crisis was more severe than anything we ’ d had since the second world war. bild : and when will interest rates rise again? draghi : it ’ s quite simple : when the economy is growing more strongly again and inflation rises closer to our objective. low interest rates today will lead to higher rates tomorrow. bild : does the ecb ’ s policy of cheap money not make it far too easy for euro area countries like italy and france, for example, to shirk necessary but unpopular reforms? draghi : no. the majority of governments are acting, albeit too slowly for my personal taste. all of them would be well advised to do more. but that is not primarily dependent on the ecb and its policies. most countries started to implement reforms when the level of interest rates was already very low. furthermore, reforms of judicial systems, electoral laws or labour laws, for example, don ’ t have much to do with interest rates. so i don ’ t find the argument convincing that we have to keep up the pressure. it is also not our task. it would not be democratic for a central bank to dictate to elected governments what they have to do. bild : mr draghi, in your first interview with bild four years ago, we spoke a lot about greece. the country has still not got back on its feet, even though it has received hundreds of billions in emergency loans. when will the madness end? draghi : clearly, last year was an economic setback for greece. now everyone is aware that there can be no growth without reforms. and what the country and its people need above all is growth. greece has implemented many reforms in the past few months and is committed to the path of reform. bild : is the euro a part of the solution for greece, or a part of the problem? draghi : greece ’ s challenges have little to do with the euro. it would have to implement reforms in any case. in the euro area, greece can do that with the support of its partners. but one thing must be clear : who belongs in the euro area and who does not is not for the ecb to decide. that is a matter for the member states. bild : they are now more fractious than ever. is that

assets is close to 2 %. bild : so, are the german savers themselves to blame? draghi : no. but there are alternatives when investing savings. in the united states savers had to face seven years of zero interest rates. the financial system – banks and insurers – nevertheless still worked. money was invested in a variety of ways which in the end enabled a decent return. bild : of all people, german finance minister wolfgang schauble, who has supported you for years, is now among your strongest critics, saying your policies are damaging savers and thereby strengthening populist parties. does that get to you? draghi : i don ’ t take anything personally in my job. a polite and constructive debate is actually welcome and helps us to explain our policies. bild : really? draghi : yes. but one thing is clear : the ecb obeys the law, not the politicians. or, as one of my predecessors put it, it is normal for politicians to comment on our actions. but it would be abnormal if we listened to them. bis central bankers ’ speeches bild : does such criticism from the finance minister or from the german vice chancellor threaten the independence of the ecb? draghi : no. but any perception that the ecb ’ s independence is under attack can unsettle businesses and consumers. they might then postpone investment and spending decisions that would be good for jobs and growth. that might force the central bank to do more to achieve price stability. bild : has the strength of the criticism from germany also got something to do with the fact that you are an italian, and what do you think of demands that the next president of the ecb must be a german? draghi : there is really nobody in the world who is interested in the fact that i am an italian apart from the german media. and what difference would it make if a non - italian were now in office? none at all. he or she would pursue the same course as we do now. all other large central banks in the world are pursuing similar policies. bild : but it is precisely this policy of cheap money that is not working … draghi : wrong – our policy is working, but we must be patient ; investor confidence has not yet been fully restored. for two years, the economy in the euro area has been growing month by month, banks are lending and unemployment is steadily falling. meanwhile, euro area countries