diff --git "a/train_10M/train_10M/bnc_spoken.train" "b/train_10M/train_10M/bnc_spoken.train" new file mode 100644--- /dev/null +++ "b/train_10M/train_10M/bnc_spoken.train" @@ -0,0 +1,90000 @@ +Yeah. +Compound's things like six nine, six nine erm +Nine twelve +Yeah. +That sort of stuff. +At the top. +That's the top number. +Erm. +And compound is three four. +Tha that's comp that's compound. +Now compound is always six. +Oh. +Simple is just ordinary three beats a bar, +Yeah. +four beats in a bar, two beats in a bar. +It's the compou think of compound as being the one that's more difficult to think about. +Six eight times, nine eight times. +Yeah. +Right. +Still leaves three two three or four beats in a bar, but they're compound times. +They're dotted beats. +That's really all that compound means. +It means dotted beats. +Erm what would twelve twelve four? +Think about twelve four cos that's a compound time. +It's got twelve at the top. +Erm it may help to look at it. +Cos you can't think about it straight away. +Think twelve, and it'll be twelve what? +Dotted semi-quavers. +No. +What does four stand for in an ordinary time signature? +Oh crotchets. +Right so +So. +if there are twelve of those. +Twelve crotchets. +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve. +Think of them in groups of threes and that gives you four dotted? +Quavers. +No. +Semi-quavers. +You're, you're going small +Yes. +and you've got to go the other way. +Oh yeah. +It's erm +If there are tw if there are twelve crotchets and each of those are in groups of three. +Dotted minims. +So you've got four dotted minims. +So twelve, I mean if you can remember them twelve stands for four beats in a bar anyway +Yeah. +and if you just think what twelve crotchets are going to be divided up into +Mm. +it's going to dotted minims. +Cos you know it's going to be dotted something or other. +And if you were to see er an extract of music for example here's a twelve eight one. +This one actually tells you it's in twelve eight time. +And it's asking you to put in the bar lines. +Where would you put those bar lines do you think? +It would al I think it probably also asks you to to group them properly. +But just for the moment we won't worry about the grouping aspect. +I think, assume everything starts on the first beat of the bar as well. +Okay. +It'll tell you if it doesn't. +Erm +Eight stands for ? +Quavers. +Right +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve . +So obviously the first one would be there. +And probably if it's going to be a whole one +One two three four five six seven eight nine ten eleven twelve. +So in fact there are just two bars. +Now how would you actually group those notes? +Erm it'd be groups of three again wouldn't it? +In groups of three. +Those two've got to be grouped together. +One two three four +Er it'd be sort of half of that. +Half of the erm crotchet. +I don't know how you do that. +Can we go backwards. +One two three four five +You can only do it if you miss out that. +One two three. +One two three. +And that leaves you with a a little bit +Right. +Yes. +It actually explains it. +Exactly what they want you to do. +Er where you've got a note that obviously goes over a beat as in that one there +Yeah. +you're, you're going to have to write two quavers and tie them. +Is that what you said? +Yeah. +It might have been what you said . +So those two okay. +That one will be joined to a quaver beat, so that you'll have a group of three. +And another quaver, those two will be tied the join taking them onto the next group of three and so on. +So basically you're splitting this in compound time? +Yes. +So it it'd still sound +Cos that, that actually looks as though it's the half way part of the bar too doesn't it? +So, and you, you don't actually go over the half +Yeah. +way part of the bar with one single note. +If you've got a note it's got to be held. +You actually split into two an and use a tie. +If you're in two time or four time which you are. +You're in four four dotted crotchets beats there aren't they? +You will sometimes be asked to er look at something like that and then put the time signature in. +These have got the time signature in but you're, they're asking you to put in the bar lines and then grouping the notes properly. +As in that one, you've go you've got to alter what they actually put there. +Not going to alter the sound of it. +The sound must still be the same but you've got to alter the notes for grouping purposes. +That may happen in any of those. +I wonder if they've got any here now that haven't got any time signatures, because that's the other thing that they they like to give you. +Down here. +Add time signatures. +Alright. +Let's see what you can make of first of all that one. +And whether they're all compound, they may not all be compound. +Some may be, some may not. +I don't know. +Find the simplest bar in each one. +this one. +Looking through it that is the simplest one cos you can see +Yes. +at a glance there are two +It's all, it's all +groups of three aren't there? +Yeah. +So that's obviously going to be in compound time. +What though? +Erm +Fairly easy to put in a time signature. +Six twelve. +Six er now wait a minute. +What's four is for crotchets. +Eight is for quavers. +Double it again, sixteen. +Six sixteen. +It's gonna be sixteen. +So six sixteen. +And that actually means two dotted crotch two dotted quavers I mean, doesn't it? +Cos each group adds up to a dotted quaver. +Mm. +So it +Yeah. +As you've got here. +That's right. +In fact, if anything, which is the easiest way round of doing it? +To be, if you're asked to put in a time signature? +It's not always so easy to to group notes. +I think people find that more difficult than actually saying what a time signature is. +Mhm. +What about that one? +Erm +Take the simplest bar. +Three quavers. +So the time signature is? +Erm three eight. +Three eight. +Now +And it's grouped in a dotted crotchet. +Yes it is. +Now is that compound or is that simple? +Three eight is simple. +It's simple because it's just got three at the top. +Mm. +It looks as if it ought to be with the compound ones but it's not. +It's just an ordinary simple one. +But it's quaver beats instead of crotchet beats, that's all. +So that was a simple one, that one was a compound one. +We'll do one more. +What about this one? +Is there an easy ? +No they're, they're all, virtually all exactly the same +Erm +timing aren't they? +They're not quite the same. +two three four five six +Yeah. +six erm six four. +Yes. +Six four which is dotted? +Minims. +Two dotted minims. +Yes, yes. +Two dotted minims in a bar. +That's one of them. +And that, in fact that's probably the simplest bar isn't it? +Because +Mm. +that's a group of three. +Much the same as a dotted, dotted minim. +Erm simple or compound time then? +It's +Six +six four +four +that's simple. +No, compound. +Compound. +Two, three, four or five would be simple times. +Six, twelve They sound more complicated +Mm. +so think of them as being compound. +Right. +That way round then isn't so difficult. +That I think you I think most people find it more difficult having to group the notes in the right, in exactly the right way. +So I think. +This is actually a grade four one. +We'll lead up gradually to grade five . +Yeah. +I'm not going to go all the way back through grades two and three. +You started on two I think. +Or you've got Book Two. +We'll go, we'll go from +I think . +here. +And anything that you find you don't know then we can perhaps go back on just the bits that you don't know. +Because you're not going to have to go back on many of the things. +This book, these books are quite good because they do give you a little bit of explanation. +You've also got er other books or another book at home which you can refer to if you need any extra. +Erm it might be an idea to go back. +You won't find you're going to take much time doing some of these. +If you do exercise one for the time being don't worry about that one, exercise three. +Shall I write it down? +Yes, it would be a good idea, wouldn't it? +Mm. +Do you want to write on the back of +It would be because you've already got some in here haven't you? +I think I probably +Yeah. +Actually I'll carr I'll carry on on +And the date today is the +The twenty eighth I think. +Ah the twenty eighth. +It's the next thing on isn't it ? +So if you're looking in the grade four book put down page four, exercise one. +If you have a look at each one of those. +Rather than write them in the book, just put the answers down either on a on a piece of paper. +As long as you put clearly what it is you're putting in. +Then I can just use these books over and over again. +It's a bit pointless writing in them. +When it comes to exercise three that's on page five, exercise three. +When it says add bar lines it won it won't hurt you to actually write those out. +Because +Okay. +you really need to group the notes. +Well the notes are grouped but you're gonna add the . +Write it out because it's all good practice for +for you actually. +At er writing out notes as well. +So you can do exercise three. +Not that one for now because that's doing something different. +Now which are the ones that you've got to to group? +So far over here. +Right. +Page page eight starts exercise six. +In fact do all of those. +Do A through to F. +And that's grouping notes plus the bar lines. +The later ones are always quite hard. +And they've given you they've actually given you, not in this one, but they do give you the clefs here. +They've given you the clefs. +Did we look at those before? +Alto clefs and tenor clefs? +Er don't think so. +Have you come across those before? +come across these. +You've come across the treble and the bass right? +and the bass, not these alto or whatever. +Erm if just take just think of singers at the moment. +Soprano is the highest, then an alto +Soprano, then an alto , tenor, bass +tenor and bass. +Soprano is the highest voice. +Then comes the alto. +Then the tenor and then the bass at the . +Oh right. +So is +So +that's that's alto. +So is that one up from +It's one down from +the treble. +Think of it as being the next lot down if you like. +Then there would be a tenor clef and then a bass clef. +The only reason that, that you're using a different clef is that it's actually putting middle C in a different place. +On the stave. +So that for example an alto doesn't need so many notes, high notes, but needs a few more lower notes. +So if you just kept your treble clef you'd have a lot of lines possibly that you weren't using at all. +And having to add a lot of low ledger line notes. +That saves doing that. +Because they position middle C. +Middle C's actually positioned between those bits there so the middle line there becomes middle C. +Which means that you're unlikely to have to have quite so many ledger line notes. +Although this has got one or two. +But not as many as you would have if you were using the treble clef because you'd probably end up with a lot of lower this is wha , that isn't a particularly good example really because it hasn't given a lot of lower notes but normally you'd expect to see more notes down on these lines. +Soprano wouldn't go down that far. +A soprano would only go down to about erm oh about what? +Middle C is probably a bit too low for, for most sopranos. +But an alto would go a lot lower, would go down probably to an F or a G. +So that these notes would be low. +If that's middle C you can te what would the bottom line actually be? +Bottom line? +That's C +Er it would +It's here. +er G. +C A F, you're right, yes. +Erm so that in fact a true alto would be using most of the notes there. +And just a few ledger lines above. +Unlikely to be using whereas if they were using the treble clef for most of the time +F G. +Yes. +And then the other one, the tenor clef. +Have they given you a tenor clef? +No. +They'll give you a tenor clef a little bit further on. +They may not actually put the tenor clef in till grade grade five now I come to think about that. +But there's no point in +Not learning it +about it now because it's just as easy really. +Tenor clef looks exactly the same but middle C is now there. +Next line up in fact. +So because a tenor sings a little bit lower you've got more of the lower notes and fewer of the higher notes before you need to add start adding ledger line notes. +Sometimes of course you'll, they'll still need ledger line notes up there. +And perhaps one down there but not very likely. +So it's just to make it much more comfortable to look at. +Just means you have to get used to thinking, right if that's if, if that's er er a tenor clef then that note won't be it would be, be an A in a bass clef and F in a treble clef. +What will it be for that clef? +In this erm oh +Going downwards going backwards is, is more difficult isn't it? +Yeah. +Much easier working upwards from C. +That line's C. +So that line +C. +would be? +C A F D +Er C A E You go one below it. +Oh yeah. +You know F is next in fact C yes. +That's A, that's F, that would be D so it's between the two which, which is an E. +And if you were going above of course, that note would be? +E. +E and remember that it's the E just above middle C. +And that's the E +Does the middle C +always come up on a line? +Well it's yes it does in fact. +Mm. +I hadn't actually thought of that before. +But yes it does seem to. +I suppose theoret theoretically you could actually move middle C to wherever you wanted to have it. +But generally speaking they us they use just the four clefs. +Now certain instruments use the alto clef. +Just a minute. +Hello. +Oh hello. +Alright. +Right I'll fetch him, I'll fetch him. +Yes he's here. +Oh somewhere he is. +He's jus just upstai he's just upstairs so I shan't be a moment I'll go and call him . +Gosh she's going to have fun with this tape. +Go on out you go. +Right Yes. +So middle C then can be almost anywhere. +Yeah. +What instrument do you know about do you think that uses something other than the treble clef and a bass clef? +Or have you come across the one that +Erm instrument that I know. +Well that, that you might know. +It's not actually a percussion one but it's er in fact I don't, I think most of the percussion ones tend to use a a bass clef don't they? +Yeah, yeah. +If you see one at all. +Yeah or erm xylophones and glocks and those. +Except they use treble and bass +They use the treble don't they? +Yes. +Er Bass or whatever. +Yeah. +Xylophone. +Yes, it's a treble. +And a vibraphone? +Just I've got one of those nice little +Yes. +It's just like a, a small sort of piano. +Doesn't have a very long +key keyboard. +It doesn't I don't think. +Quite an +It's a piano and it's +odd range. +It's very high. +Because in fact although it's written from there all the way up to there, erm that is it starts at the C above middle C and goes up +Yeah. +to very high the unfortunate thing +snare drum. +I think that's played on the bass what would be on the piano an A. +Yes. +It, it, they +use cert certain lines don't they? +They use yeah erm +So that you, you get to know what is +I think it's er +what is what. +A is the bass drum. +Yeah. +er +I think it's G they use as the high-hat and there's all sorts of things. +Yeah. +I don't thing they one thing they don't give in this book is a complete score +Yeah. +which oh do they? +No they don't. +No. +Which of course I'll ask yeah I've got plenty of those sort +Mm. +of things anyway. +You have to know an awful lot you know for grade five. +You, you've gotta have quite a wide knowledge. +You, you don't have to, need to know anything in, in depth but you've got to know +But you've got to know shallow a wider range. +Yes that's right which means in a way that you've got to know quite a lot. +There's erm an alto, no, yes an alto clef, isn't it? +For trombone, no, it's not, it's for, yes it's for one of the trombones, isn't it? +Tuba. +Oh I erm found out what that brass instrument we couldn't think of. +What was it? +Euphonium. +Euphon yes. +You're erm isn't it silly +Mm. +I've, I've +because you see I could see wh exactly what you were talking about in my mind +Mm. +but I could not think of its name. +Yeah. +I got into the car and I was still erm thinking all about this +It's, it's, yeah. +and my mother said straight away, oh you're thinking of a euphonium. +Yeah. +That's the one. +Yes. +It's so silly isn't it when er you know that you knew it all the time. +Now then. +The one I'm looking for is what, have I got to the strings yet? +No I haven't got back to the strings. +These just use the bass or the treble clef. +And when you get back to the There we are. +The strings. +It's the viola that we're actually looking for. +Sort of bass violin. +Sort of bass violin, yes . +There we are. +That's the one that uses it. +So that you see even in a score it would be written like that. +So that's the only, only instrument that you generally see, actually see using it in most, most schools. +Unless you're going into some of the tenor erm and alto + +Can I sign those for accuracy, please? +I'm taking the silence to be assent. +Matters arising on those minutes on page one. +On minute one one four, I'm using my privilege as a chair to hang on to that; the fact that the Poly are to hold a conference on health and housing in the new year. +I've asked that members be invited to that, I'm sure some of you'd be interested to do that. +You may recall that this committee has asked for a health and housing conference but we seem to get under it rather a lot of times, nothing it appears to be happening. +Can I have your agreement that we write to the director of housing and ask for his position on it? +Will you agree that we do that, rather than have the same thing coming up time after time. +Anything else on page one? +Also on that, chair, just to clarify the situation, because I know it's a bit vague, we are erm asking the health authority to run the erm meeting with other local authority counties, do you remember? +The referral agency's to be in B? +Right, lovely. +We're doing that. +Great, thank you very much indeed for that. +On page 2, matters arising. +Sheila? +One one six, chair. +I would like to congratulate the officers for that day. +It was a very educational day, but extremely harrowing afternoon, which is still living with me. +And I would like to say at this point I was very disappointed that we didn't have any other conservatives with us in the afternoon. +Could I suggest probably in future that if we do that we have the harrowing parts in the morning so everybody can see it. +Can I say about that little dig at the conservatives, I did actually have +No, we were expressing our sorrow, Graham, I assure you +Yes, well, I have had a recent case, erm of within the ward that I visited, so I am aware of having the number of problems in the past, I am aware of the problems, but I could not for personal circumstances do the afternoon that day. +I understand, Graham +I do rather resent it when there are other council committees, there's Town Hall Strategy Working Party in the afternoon, now if we're going to be sure that we can all get to this without conflict with other committees, erm I had to be there on behalf of the Lord Mayor because she had duties, erm and I was very sorry not to be able to come, because I have dealt, visited many occupational, I wanted to visit the officers, and you know, it isn't always possible where you have a conflict of interests. +Is it possible perhaps if when we have another day, I take the point that perhaps the morning's but then again we're bound to miss something else, If we can have it a day that is clear of other city councils +It may be +Could meet before +that if we pass on some of your comments at the end of the section, maybe they'll be able to arrange, maybe in two or three months time a visit that most of us can make, particularly those of you who missed it, because it is an important experience, but obviously quite difficult to arrange, because it involves real tenants and real people but we can pass that back, and I'm sure the officers will consider it. +Chair, erm on that, if that could be arranged in two or three months time, perhaps we can see how the Charter of Commerce is working out, because I think many of us are very interested to see how it is working out, we could erm discuss with somebody who's in bed-and-breakfast, who could then erm tell us how the Charter of Commerce is working. +Very appropriate remark, Michael, the charter is up for review at any event, very shortly, because it was on a six-month trial as it were. +So I agree with that, thank you. +Page three? +Yes, on page three, one twenty, chair, we asked for a date, the date of that conference is the thirteenth and fourteenth of December. +That's probably helping Nora. +It's not on the minutes, but just to remind you, the thirteenth and fourteenth of December, thanks Tony. +Is it to be in the Town Hall? +Is it in the Town Hall, Tony? +Blessed if I can remember, chair, no. +In St Catherine's, Vice Chair suggests. +Page four? +On page five, those of you who were at the last council meeting will know that the City Centre Management Working Party were charged with the responsibility of looking at the whole issue of street trading. +They have now done that and they will be making a report, I hope, fairly shortly, either to us or or both. +On item four on page five, you'll see that we said ‘relevant papers to be sent to all members of council’. +Pragmatically, I suggested to the officers that a summary of those papers be sent to all members of council in the interests of saving paper, and that if you see something you want to know more about, you then go and talk to David Turner, is that agreeable? +Otherwise you will be inundated with paper. +Item one two four, Highways and Traffic do not agree with us on touting. +And I'm sure we shall sit quietly over that. +Page six, Matters Arising, page seven, yes? +I was just going to ask if we have a diary? +Tony? +Not at this stage, chair, next committee you should have. +Thank you. +Okay? +Can we use item one two nine on the minutes, first of all to say that some of us were at the H I V awareness training session last week, with Robin, we enjoyed it enormously, she's hiding behind the thing. +Looking for the right word! +So we want to say ‘thank you very much’ to Robin, and also, this is our opportunity to learn officially that Robin is leaving our employment, I think in February? +Yes. +And it's an opportunity for her and me to say a couple of words to us, and for us certainly to thank her very much for her service. +I just wanted to let you know that in February, won't be hiding behind an OHP, erm I'll be taking up a post with the European Commission, working with Aids services throughout Europe. +erm I'm very sad to be leaving Oxford, I've very much enjoyed working here, and it's been good to work for a council with such a high commitment to H I V, and to fighting Aids, and erm I very much the support I've had from the committee and I hope it will continue erm in this way. +So thank you very much. +I'm sure Health committee's commitment to the post will continue. +And I'm sure I speak on behalf of you all when I say thank you very much indeed to Robin, you've done an excellent job, and we shall miss you. +Thanks. +Can I chair just draw your attention to one or two items. +I hope this committee will, since everybody else is doing it, yet again, my absolute, the officers and the management on Northway Community Centre +It's on the agenda Betty, you'll have another bite at this cherry. +Oh is it? +Yes +Oh, sorry, right. +Anything else on page seven? +Most items are on the agenda, actually. +On page eight, item one three two, can I draw committee's attention to, says she, feverishly flicking through the pieces of paper, to a letter that John Patten has written to us, you'll see what we asked Amanda to do on our behalf, Amanda Root, Women's Sub also asked her to do that, and John Patten, surprisingly enough has written back, his private secretary has written back, she continues to say, ‘Mr Patten is used to getting communications from Chief Officers conveying the views of committees, he has never had any correspondence from Sub-Committees through other officers’. +Now, I wonder whether the opposition members might not like to take that up with their M P. +I think an MP is there to respond to correspondence, and I'm very surprised that he takes issue with one of our officers because she doesn't happen to be the Chief Officer, and I'm very sad about that. +Can I just ask, I'm not usually a member of this committee as you know. +So you might be out-of-order in speaking, in fact. +Can I say that sub-committees, as I understand it, report to main committees? +Yes they do. +So, in fact, had that decision gone to the main committee, or is it going, is it coming here now. +This was a decision of main committee, on page eight. +I understood it in fact from what you said that it was a decision of the sub-committee. +Women's sub also happened to say the same thing. +Yes, Mavis? +Sorry, if I could just clarify, I was actually at the meeting of Women's Sub, erm as was Robin in fact, and they, the Women's Sub-Committee considered the minute of this committee, and endorsed erm, in fact, Amanda didn't write until the meeting of women's sub, because it was being considered by them, but erm they didn't add anything substantial to what was this committee had said and they did. +I just think it is, in fact, a great shame that the MP only acknowledges some letters if they happen to have the kind of status that he appreciates. +I don't think there's a defence for that. +Betty? +Well, he seems to have been conspicuous by has absence in respect to these things. +He has been invited to talk to other committees in the past and has decided not to do so. +Now, I don't take very kindly to that. +Whatever he thinks of the political make-up of this council, he owes a duty to the city and to his council. +And I think this is a an another example of how little he seems to care for this city. +Well, on the specific issue, which is item one three two, are we agreed that we write quite clear but nonetheless firm letter to Mr Patten, explaining that we are minded to ask him to comment on these matters, it this time comes from the Chair and the Chief Officer about and perhaps he will therefore take it more seriously. +Are we agreed that we do that? +Graham? +I was just going to say that I'm sure he it's not that he didn't take it seriously. +It may well be he felt that there wasn't necessarily the full authority of the city council and administration sub committee. +Now clearly, he responds every day to individuals of the public. +Here, I can only think that he was saying, ‘well, we don't know that there's the full authority of the city council in this view’, but erm I'm not going to put up a defence, I just think that what we do is basically stress from yourself and from the chief officer that we do want this file known. +Could I have a copy of the letter, please, can I take it up? +You certainly can, Anne, thank you. +Other matters arising on page eight, you'll see on item one three four that we did investigate the possibility, did we, have we got a response on that, of an officer being part of the joint care planning team. +I wonder if the county have responded to that, yet? +We haven't had a response. +We haven't got a response, fine, okay. +Item eight, any more Matters Arising? +Item, erm sorry, page nine, on the Food Safety Act, we did write, the Chief did write, to Andrew Smith, to ask about the position on the Food Safety Act, as far as monies go, and I will read you the response, it was a question in parliament. +‘The Government has estimated that local authorities in England will need to spend twenty four point seven million pounds in ninety-one, ninety-two to carry out the additional duties resulting from the Food Safety Act. +This additional cost is being taken into account in a total of aggregate external finance. +The post to be twenty-six point oh five billion which will be distributed to Local Authorities on the basis of standard spending assessments. +My Right Honourable Friend will be announcing our imposing Standard Spending Assessments in the near future.’ +The implications for us are that we shall have to find it very hard to ensure that we get a share of that grant to spend on implementation of the Food Safety Act. +I would suggest that the government would be a lot, lot better adding a ticket to amounts of money, which said ‘You either spend this money on implementing the Food Safety Act, or you don't get it.’ +Future Labour Government's committed itself to doing that, and I would suggest that the Secretary of State should do it, because we're not guaranteed to receive that money at all. +erm Anything else on page nine? erm On Nestlé, Chief's reminded me that we have got, I received today, a long letter from Nestlé, basically saying they won't be coming today. +I shall make that letter available to the solicitor who we have asked to check out with Estates, and with other authorities regarding the way forward, if we wish to make any public statements about our dealings with Nestlé. +I'm not putting it around the table, because it's a very long letter, and I don't think we could have a worthwhile discussion on it right now. +Yes, chair,actually gave it to this headed copy of it to consolidate erm with regard to contacting Leicester and Leeds Councils that have also sort of taken action against Nestlé, that's still being done. +The officer at Leicester's not available at the moment, so he hopes by the next meeting erm if Leeds have an opportunity to see that letter, and perhaps have a short report on what this council does with respect to Nestle/1 and also what other councils have done. +Michael? +Yes, erm, going back to the original thing that brought this up, that we should descry people from using Nestlé's products, erm, in fact implications will be quite wide, because they now own Rowntrees, and they own Cross and Blackwells, and they own all sorts of other companies. +Now, is it the intention of the people who asked us to take this action that we should just boycott Nestles products, or we should do the whole range of the conglomerate that owns all these people like Rowntrees and Cross and Blackwell, and many other companies as well. +Because this, erm, I think it's quite far-reaching to erm get all hot on this, and I don't think we realised the full implications. +Yes, the implications are very heavy, I had not realised what you'd just said, and we should refer that to Amanda and indeed take all take it on board, otherwise we'll be taking on the world. +Yes, probably should. +And probably should, yes. +Item one four oh, believe it or not, Doctor Root did write to Mr Patten on this issue, and guess what he wrote back? +‘I've received a letter from your Health Promotion erm Liaison Officer, can I ask you if this was sent on your behalf?’ +‘On which committee meeting was the letter considered?’, he doesn't trust anybody, this guy, does he? +I propose the same action again. +He's obviously keen on structures and procedure is the Right Honourable Gentleman +Must be a past experience! +Yes. +Well, he's taking a lot longer and costing us a lot more money in terms of letting us know his view. +Actually, to comply with the minute, it should go to the City Environmental Chief Officer. +Yes. +Well, as you know, we always say the City Environmental Health Officer, and the officer responsible then does the work, we've seen to that on our committee for years +If you look at a department like the Director and Engineers department, every letter in fact has underneath it the City Engineer, even if its signed by somebody else. +I mean it is a possibility, and if he's going to be awkward perhaps we'll have to just make sure that we do that, which is presumably fairly easy, if the post goes out from the same office. +I take your point Anne, but I would prefer to help the MP understand that the nature of the way that this department is run is that officers do take responsibility for their specialist areas of work, the senior management has always supported that, and I don't feel minded to change it because the MP finds it difficult. +Well, I certainly will take it up if I get a copy letter, I mean it is obviously that some departments act differently, and I understand that in any case this is only a letter from the secretary, it's not him, so I mean, I'm quite happy to take it up if I get the copy of that, and explain that this department act, does rather differently from some of the others. +And we shall certainly do that as well. +Chair, the letters that do go, the majority of the letters that go to MPs and members are signed by me, though they're prepared by the officer who's the expert in different fields, but these two letters went when I happened to be away from the department, and that's fair enough, I'd rather they went than sat around waiting for my return. +But, they also go on headed note paper which says Oxford City Council Environmental Health Department and all the other stuff we put on the top, erm and it's perfectly clear that they do come from the City Department upon your behalf. +He's being awfully bumptious, let's be honest. +Chair, can I just help you here recently, because we've had a recent case ourselves erm, this is an ironic twist to this, because Councillor Patten's being writing to the County on Highway and Traffic issues recently and sending us a copy, and it's stunned us a little bit, because normally they would write to us direct, but there's a sting in this because we don't know whether we're supposed to respond to him now, or the county. +And the county don't send us copy letters, so, chair it does need sorting out as far as we're concerned as well. +It really does doesn't it. +I can see the Press headline: ‘MP with knickers in twist’Anything else on page ten. +Okay, apologies for absence and substitution. +Chair, I have none, I'm afraid. +May I say that Mrs Kurtz, I would have thought has sent her apologies, and I'm substituting for her +Sorry, I should explain to the committee that I was informed that the secretary who normally does the minutes for the half past one was sick, and had, she'd been sent home by her doctor at lunch time, so I came back from lunch and had to come straight into committee, and I do apologize if I have missed bits of paper or whatever, I've gathered up everything I could, but that might well be one of the things that I've left behind. +We accept that Councillor Kurtz would be honourable in these matters, do we accept Councillor Tiffany as her substitute. +Yes +They're not saying a lot are they? +I had erm I was going to be representative of this committee at a erm safety seminar for three days at the beginning of this week that I wasn't able to go to, and Councillor Kurtz has very kindly gone in my place, which is why she is not able to come to this meeting. +Ah, well in that case +We do appreciate that explanation. +No, I think sometimes it's forgotten not all that many, you know, these remarks about us not being there. +There's not many of you! +Only three that can be there and +We're quite happy that there's not many of you Anne! +Okay, so we accept that Councillor Tiffany is now substituting Councillor Kurtz and may now take her full part in the meeting. +Can I just ask your permission for our proceedings this afternoon to be tape recorded by Caroline, and I've forgotten where you come from, Caroline? +From the University Press, from Oxford University Press. +From the Oxford University Press. +Will you need to know why she needs to tape record? +Thought you might! +Yes. +Would you like to tell us, Caroline? +Yes, it's for the dictionary project, we're doing a, erm we're trying to build up a database at the moment of transcribed spoken language. +We're happy to take part in that! +Could we have that repeated, please, I didn't hear it. +She's of the dictionary project that's looking at transcribed spoken language. +Oh, we'll have to be careful, then, won't we! +You may have to be careful. +Perhaps you ought to tell her that John Patten is no longer with the environmental health. +He is in fact. +Is he still there? +Haven't seen him for about two weeks. +So we're all happy about that? +Approved duties. +You'll probably need help filling round here. +I was going to say, I have no idea, unless there's, if they're on the agenda, I'll pick them up and see, if there's anything else, you'll have tell me about it I'm afraid, chair. +I'm not immediately aware of anything else, but members, please rack your brains as we go through, Diana? +You gave us, you gave us some dates on page three, item one hundred and twenty, thirteenth and fourteenth of December. +I believe we've taken a decision on that for the health conference, last time round. +I've got one on page eighty-one, but we'll come to it on pollution control. +They're are some others too, chair, on the seminars and conferences we've listed. +We can do on the way through, okay. +I think there is no urgent business. +erm Well, as I understand it there is a report on the authorization of officers, which is urgent business. +Ah, that's right, sorry +Yes, chair, and I don't have copies and, you do? +Well, I have some, I thought they'd gone round, but this is, erm sorry +Chair, it was one officer whom we've got on staff at the moment Karen Wheeler who's away nursing her new baby, and it's to authorize that officer to carry out certain roles under the health and safety +Can you circulate that, the committee is accustomed to seeing it. +I don't think it should cause you any problems, but it is something that's come on late erm as a result of maternity cover. +Right. +Ian Waterhouse is with us, probably wondering how on earth these meetings get off the ground at all. +Ian, you're the community services manager. +We have a paper from you on, can we settle down a bit. +We have a paper from you on page eleven. +Can I ask you to limit yourself to some five minutes. +I apologize for that, that, but we have a very heavy agenda, and members start falling asleep around five, and if people have questions or comments, perhaps they . +Welcome to our committee, and we hope we'll be working together in the future. +Thank you, yes, erm thank you very much for inviting me to attend to those meetings and giving me the opportunity to meet you all. +Having worked for a number of years now in community health services, previously erm in Yorkshire, in fact I've only been down in Oxford about four or five months, I've learnt how important it is in fact to make good working contacts with members and officers of other organizations, and particularly of local authority organizations. +I'm therefore doubly grateful to you for giving me the chance to meet you today, and I hope that some of the contacts I might make today will stand me in good stead in the job that I'm doing in Oxford over the next year or so. +I have sent round a briefing paper, and rather than go right through that, what I'd just like to do is to highlight two or three things about myself and about the post that I now hold, and I would be pleased to answer any questions that you might have during the next two or three minutes. +Firstly, just to set my own context, I've been in the health service now for just over twenty year. +I went into the service in nineteen seventy as a national trainee, and I'm therefore coming from the administrative branch of the service. +I'm not a qualified nurse, or a health care professional. +I'm an administrator by background, and I think that's interesting, because one of the things that we are trying to do in the health service is to open up our management posts to people of all professions, and to recognise that management is not the prerogative of any particular group, but that we're looking for the right people to manage our services from wherever they might come, and I'm one of three people who has a responsibility to the senior manager in the community at the top, for the managing on a day-to-day basis the health services in Oxfordshire. +Of those two colleagues, interestingly enough, one is a health visitor by background, the other is a nurse, but someone who practised or hasn't practised, but as a district health community planner for a number of years. +So you can see that we have quite a mixture of people in terms of our backgrounds professionally. +The purpose of general management is to try and ensure that in the city that we are getting the best value we can from the health resources that are in the city, and I have the authority now, and the responsibility to spend the budget that I've had allocated from the Oxfordshire Health Authority, by Gerald Simon who's the general manager. +So a big change in the way that we are arranged has actually come about through the general management structure, and we're hoping that this will give us more room, if you like to start looking at priorities, and to move the budget around in accordance with our feelings about those priorities. +In that task I am assisted by a team of six managers, all of whom are professional nurses and district nurses or health visitors and they of course are there to advise me on professional issues, and to share with me the management task of using the resources of Oxford City in the way that we feel is best appropriate, and in doing that, I think one of the important things for us to do, I don't think we do it quite as well as we should, is to work more closely with the local council, and to look really at what the needs of our local communities are for health, and to try and make sure that the feelings that might well be expressed by individuals, either individually, or through caring associations, or through other statutory agencies, or through voluntary health organisations, are actually given a chance to be there, and to influence our, that official policy and constituents , and to, to influence the planning process. +I've made a note of a potting of that briefing paper to you. +I personally see this is as one of my major objectives over the next year or so, and in a sense it makes me trebly grateful to be here today, because I hope some of the contacts I might make today will enable me to work alongside you in what might be called even local Berkshire band, and to try and get more a multiplicity of views from different organisations channelled through our own value objectives. +And it is the exciting part of my job is to make these links work, start to build on them, and over our links in the city on the environmental and group with Tony Benn , that's that's doing a very good job, he is a platform for this, for each other, but I think there's a lot more we can do locally erm within the city to build those links, and to work together for better answers for the city, and I hope that, on a practical level, one of the things that interested me was your grants team for local organisations, and I would like to think myself here today, we might look at the health authority, and try to join with them to make some erm practical contribution, particularly to those many carers, and groups of people who have problems, and we're not all just professionals best able to put over during our normal nine-to-five or eight-to-eight days, we we can. +There's a lot we can do, I think, to help the community in a wider sense, and I see that as one of the key elements of my work, to try and make that work. +And I'm not too concerned with the day-to-day management of individual professionals, I've got a team to help me do that. +What concerns me is looking at the and trying to forge new creative links with other organisations, statutory and voluntary, in the best health interests of Oxfordshire residents. +That I think is my main concern, with a request in a sense to you for supporting that over the next year or so, because I'll be trying to perhaps get invited to the meetings, and perhaps we'll be inviting officers from the authority to join me in looking at ways of building up that local context in planning to get that into our formal planning systems. +That will be my key message, and the other thing I'd like to emphasise today, and I'd be very grateful for some sort of early response to that. +I have discussed it with Dorothy Tomkin I think we have a genuine desire to move to a more authority-based planning system, erm, we haven't got the methods of doing that yet, and I turn to C B S and to local authority and to the traditional carers for them to join us in that. +So thank you for giving me the chance to, to air that view. +There are means to get a response and I'm grateful to take the temperature of the water. +Right. +The temperature of the water will inevitably be variably, and I'm sure we certainly welcome, lots of people will welcome your philosophical position. +I would say just two things; the one on the rates scheme, we certainly as a health committee distribute fifteen thousand pounds a year and treat these as important pledge by work. +We can't deliberately do not maintain those voluntary groups which we feel are appropriately and better funded by the health authority. +The health authority has for years not shown any signs of so doing, I have to say. +I don't want to be cynical at this stage, but years of experience that show that the health authority has no intention of doing that. +And the other thing to say to from me is yes, we would love a multiplicity of views to go to the District Health Authority, I and my predecessor Betty Stanford, who were District Council Members on that health authority, we were there and able to listen to and able to contribute to the debate, the Government White Paper has taken us off, so that is not a good start in terms of how you involve the city and the district with the policy decisions of the health authority. +So that's my bit of bad news. +I can see Arthur, Betty and Liz. +Chairman, may I first of all declare an interest in this. +erm Under the new erm system erm every G P must at some time during the visit erm persons over seventy-five. +Now, what are you doing to ensure that erm that this is carried out because a lot of elderly, they will not go to the doctor, but erm the doctor I believe has got to go and see them. +Now, what are you doing to really see this is getting off the ground? +Well, I +Ian, can I ask you to save the questions and respond at the end, otherwise you'll find the discussion takes much longer, is that alright? +Although that may not be appropriate view of that, but, Betty? +I was going to raise the very question you raised. +There we were as representatives of this city, people who are in contact with erm people who have got problems, we were +Can you press your button, Betty? +in my view thrown off without any reasonable excuse, because I felt that I could bring a lot of expertise to the health authority. +They may not have thought of it as expertise, but when people said to me a particular ward is dirty, I went and looked at it, and in a very short time, within about ten minutes, that ward had got a massive clean-up team in there, that's the sort of thing that I felt was useful. +That being said, I mean, you've lost now local, local erm expertise there. +What I want to ask is, firstly, who are you funded by, and these teams, I note erm paragraphs three erm these nurses and so on, are they existing staff, or is this a new team, erm management team which has been set up at yet more expense to the health authority? +So, basically, I want to know are they taken from erm a team which is already in the health service, or are they new posts funded, and funded by whom, bearing in mind the constant complaints we get from the health authority about lack of funds? +Thank you, Betty. +Liz? +Thank you. +I'm finding myself somewhat confused, I mean, I was interested that Ian had mentioned the practical voluntary services as one of the groups that he would wish to work with. +I think that recently we seem to have had such, so many changes in the health authority, so many different peoples in the post who all seem to be doing the same sort of thing, who've got the Family Health Services Authority set up, but it would seem to me that some of the things that are on this piece of paper are things that I understood were being done by the Family Health Services Authority. +We have a joint planning officer, and we've got quite a lot of joint erm of joint planning going on between the voluntary sector and the Health Authority and the Social Services. +We've got a whole erm, a whole erm organisation that in fact the Council for Voluntary Service only this week made an appointment with a very, very, very, very small amount of money that's been made available on a very, very part-time basis, to actually assist with that, with the planning that's going on in the voluntary sector. +And I think that we're constantly hearing about new people, new systems of working. +erm New people who are being put in posts to liaise and to do this, that and the other, with a shrinking voluntary sector. +With a voluntary sector that is erm constantly needing small amounts of resource in order to deliver an enormous amount of service to vulnerable people. +And I think that the time will come some point, when the voluntary sector will say, ‘Well, we actually don't have time to talk erm to carry on talking about what we're doing and how we're doing it. +We actually much prefer to get on with what we're there to do, and to, to offer services, to find, to find ways of supporting vulnerable people. +So, I think my questions are, one, where does this post fit in the Family Health Services Authority? +Two, how does it fit in with the Joint Planning Officer who's also ready in post?, +Three, how will it fit in with all the locality planning and all the work that's already been done in joint planning between the voluntary sector and the local authority and the health authority. +Thank you very much, Liz. +We'll keep you going all afternoon at this rate, won't we Ian. +I've seen Anne and Nonnie and I don't particularly want to see anybody else. +I'm glad Liz is confused because as one of her predecessors I'm also confused. +I mean, you know, we've lived with this planning. +There's always been planning with the people on planning, and it seems to me that the paragraph that begins ‘A key area’, we've got some more planning. +And I think really what's needed is actually going out, I mean, it could be a useful new thing that, a new departure that other people haven't done. +In other words not sitting there and asking people to, erm people in authority, erm sort of people of influence, ask them what they think, but actually going out and visiting people and groups, and I was going to ask whether this would be copied to the women's sub-committee, because there are many, many groups of women who never have a chance of saying what they really want, and I don't mean patients, I mean potential users of the health service. +erm The Health Service has been very much male-orientated. +I'm very glad to see that there's quite a lot of nurses here, and I presume that quite a lot of those are women nurses, and I think that this is terribly important, and I think a useful thing with this new service could do is to go out and talk for instance to the meetings of women's organisations, to old peoples' clubs in the afternoon, and actually ask people what they would like, and get them talking in a nice informal way, rather than waiting for somebody to let them know what they think, because I don't think they're going to get it. +So, I think that would be a useful thing for a new planning section to do. +erm My ears pricked up when Mr Waterhouse did in fact say, I though he said that it wasn't necessarily help in monetary terms, but some of these people might be willing to help in kind, or in sort of helping as people with some voluntary organisations, and I think, if that was what he meant, I think there again that might be very useful, because voluntary organisations are always looking for people to help. +So those are my few comments, thank you. +Thank you Anne. +Nonnie? +As someone who has to ask occasionally for a care package for an individual, do I take it then the penultimate paragraph that this is the planning, you know, how you're going to produce a care package for an individual, this is what you refer to in the planning system, and that you're getting together with Social Services to get this care package together? +Yes, Okay? +Would you like to tackle that lot in the best way you can? +Thank you, yes, erm to take the final point in terms of care packages, yes, are officers are working on, Social Services officers, on the professional care assistant care packages. +Yes, but at what level? +Do you yet know at what level that's going to be organised? +I don't know. +You don't know, so that's part of the planning system that we're working on? +The working groups are currently on working on that, and they, my colleagues I assume are talking to the the officers of the Social Services about that, what is happening, but the final outcome has yet to appear. +Just answering the first question on assessment of the over seventy-fives, that in fact really should be better left for the to say. +I'm not part of the organisation. +They have a responsibility for managing the U G B Contract, and you quite rightly said that one of the arguments on that contract, assessments of the over seventy-fives. +I belong to the Community Oxford Health Authority not to the Family Health Services Authority, so that's just to clarify that, that did cover two questions that I was asked. +In terms of Primary Health Care teams, they are existing members of staff, or health visitors attached to General Practices, and we call that collaboration if you like . +In terms of a planning process Anne was talking about, you'll have to forgive me for being relatively new to Oxfordshire and coming from an area where we had a planning system which was largely the one I was describing, and the planning role that I saw I wanted to develop was very much already mentioned which was actually going round to small groups of people, to the local caring groups on a much more informal basis, and getting their contribution about that and then feeding it back into the system, which you say is there in a sense. +I don't think it's rooted firmly enough in the localities. +And it's that part of the jigsaw that I want to concentrate on. +So if there's anything, there's a slightly different approach to it, and one thing that we are being urged to do, through the very way in which you mentioned in another context, is to make sure that facilities are appropriate locally, and developing policies within that. +I don't make any apologies for that, and maybe it is going over the old ground, but unless we do it, unless we try to do it, if we've done it the way before been and it hasn't produced what we, what we want, then surely it's not for us to sit back and say, ‘Well, it's been through that and it hasn't worked’, surely we ought to try again, and that's what I hope to be doing, sort of value your support and see you . +Yes, can I say to you that what you're hearing is members' experiences of the past. +mhm +I'm not sure that you'll be able to uncover dinosaurs as it were. +Well, no, but I +But of course in terms of partnership, you will have our support and any way we can aid and abet you then we shall do that, erm but you can tell from the questions and comments that we have some distress about the +Yes, I get that, yes +Ian, thanks ever so much, it's not necessarily been an easy ride for you, but we're glad to know you and we look forward to meeting you again. +Yes, well, I hope so, we can sort of work it out. +I'm sure of it. +Thank you very much indeed. +Bye +Thanks, bye bye. +You can stay of course! +Don't blame you! +Can I just draw your attention to your item on Urgent Business. +Do you all have sight of that? +It's headed up ‘Appointments and Authorization of officers’ and you're asked to authorize Stephen Stansfield, a non-professional health technician, as detailed in para. +2, it's a very normal and routine bit of work for you. +Are you agreed? +Agreed. +So that we can get on with this work. +Thank you very much indeed. +On to item six and seven. +You'll remember we do this on an annual basis. +It's very efficiently organised for us to do. +We've got Keith Dryer here, I think, of the engineers. +Keith, would you like to press your button and introduce us to item six, street collections in Oxford. +Thanks, Chair. +Basically, the latest, and I mustn't take any credit, and there seemed to be some credit, Chair. +This lady on my right, Katherine Powell, does all the hard work and committee reports, and I thought it only fair to bring her here today, because she's the person that does the set fifty-threes, +She does? +She's one of the members you can come to. +So Katherine can answer the details on the report. +Right. +Welcome, Katherine. +I didn't realize that's who you are. +I'm the one who'll always be late getting a reply back on the set fifty threes! +So Katherine, do you want to say anything on the report at this stage? +I'd just like to point out that erm on the street collections as you've always done before, AvaRag and NovaSports don't generally get passed, because they don't actually help anybody in Oxford. +Right +That's the only thing I'd like to bring to your attention. +So, you can confirm for us that NovaSports are still in that position, and I think some of us understand the nature of Avarag. +Yes, erm they've got a sports centre in Nottingham, and that's the nearest thing they've got to Oxford. +Thank you for saying that to us, yes, I wouldn't have actually picked it up. +Chair, can I just ask, I mean, so it's organisations that are Oxfordshire rather than Oxford City. +Yes. +That's tended to be our line. +They've not been tested solely on that, but it's on the question. +Well, unless people have specific to Katherine, as I say it's presented in such a way, this report, that essentially we're asked to agree the number of permits to match the number of applications. +I would suggest to the committee on page sixteen on our recommendations that we do make the point about Avarag and NovaSports, just in terms of consistency, and I would expect you to want to continue to do that. +So does that mean we still grant twenty-three Saturday city centre permits? +That doesn't alter that position, Katherine? +No, Well, it will go down to twenty-one. +Quite. +Could I ask on page seventeen about Blue Cross? +We have got erm some organisations, the ones I can think of is the Animal Sanctuary that we are all familiar with. +erm I, does Blue Cross have any connection with Oxfordshire? +Yes, they've got a farm in Burford. +Ahh. +Can I ask that you agree on eight one A to grant them twenty-one Saturday city centre permits, and you're clear that you've left out NovaSports and AvaRag, and you understand why? +Graham? +I have a great deal of sympathy with all these organisations anyway, and the tremendous number of volunteers that come out on the days. +I'm just wondering whether in fact every Saturday that you've got, bearing in mind this is not flag days, this is in the street. +Yes, these are street collections. +That we really are putting a tremendous number of people on the street over the course of the year, erm that the general public are facing. +And while I think we ought to do what we can, I think there's a line which ought to be drawn, and I do honestly wonder whether twenty-one, it was eighteen last year, and I just wonder if perhaps we should erm try and switch some of these to mid-week, so that we're not seeing it virtually every Saturday of the year. +Okay, Betty? +I just wanted to say to you, firstly I declare an interest in OxRad, not pecuniary, of course, with money, however, but it is on behalf of charities, it is the only way they can generally raise some two three hundred pounds in a day, or sometimes a little more, that is a tremendous help to charities. +And I think that erm twenty-one is nothing like too many, in fact that's not even half a year. +It doesn't mean that in fact that erm that there are twenty, my maths are right, that does mean that there are thirty one +Thirty-one. +Where there is not a collection, I think that's perfectly reasonable. +Well, of course, there's flag days as well . +Yes, well then we're also making provision for disaster funds coming up, emergency funds. +Can I say that we are now organising quite tightly the business of street collections, and I think if committee are minded to reduce the number of collections that we allow, we should decide that before we come to this meeting, because I think it's very difficult in practical terms to do it at this stage, and therefore I would suggest that we do agree twenty-one, not withstanding what Graham said, we can take on board some of what he said, and maybe the month before we are asked to take this decision, we have an item on the agenda where we discuss the principle before we get down to the practicalities. +Would that suit you for the time being, Graham? +I think so, It made me feel that some actually seem to be quite keen to have suburban or mid-week, even though they've had city centre ones in the past. +Some clearly want to switch to city centre. +But I did think that it might just ease the pressure on Saturdays, because, following what erm Betty has said, in fact, as I make it it's forty-five Saturdays out of fifty-two, and bearing in mind Bank Holiday weekend, Christmas and that sort of thing, it's virtually every Saturday in the city centre there is a collection. +Now that's fine, but I know some people who are in the city centre every, on Saturday, feel very guilty if they're not constantly giving, and I do think we want to get that balance. +Clearly we want to support the charities, and the organisations but erm. +I was just going to make a quick comment if I may on Oxfam, because I noticed that they're down for the street collections and for the flag day, now next year's their fiftieth anniversary, so I think it's quite appropriate next year, but I do, my own view is, that we will get, we ought to get one comprehensive list of all these organisations, for both the street collections and the flag days, with an indication in the column of whether it's flag day they've gone for or a street collection, so that we can identify that sort of situation. +Right, I mean, that seems quite sensible actually. +I would just like to point out that suburban and mid-week flag day erm street collections alternate with the city centre the following year. +That was committee decision a number of years ago. +Right, Anne. +I think there does come a point when there is resistance. +I mean, we all know that having to shake tins, the number of people who go past by on the other side, and I think that we do have to be careful with the numbers, and even those people who normally give do get a bit fed up if there are too many. +So what I thought was that it was quite important to look at all these organisations that do seem to me really to have nothing to do with Oxford or Oxfordshire, and that we should be very careful. +Now, if we are going to, for instance, allow I mean there's one organisation, number five, which says it's a national, although it's called Cherwell Round Table, which says it's just a national body raising funds for numerous charities. +Now, if we're going to allow an organisation like that, have we no erm chance to say that after they've had their collection, we should like to have some indication of what percentage went to Oxford, so that when they apply again, we can at least know whether this is actually a genuine local organisation or national. +And a lot of these organisations, it's very difficult, because there are many that a lot of people are in favour of, like, well, take King George's Fund for Sailors and so on , but how do we know, I mean, there might be two people they might help in Oxford over the course of the year. +I do think it's a difficult one, but I do feel there is a limit to the number, and therefore we should be careful that the ones we agree to are the ones that interest local people. +Right. +I think we certainly agree with you in terms of locality, and it's open to you at any time, I would have thought, to be in touch with Katherine, and say, ‘Would you follow up on x or y’. +I think if the committee did that then we'd be back to what five or six years ago, when a whole afternoon was spent on that and I wouldn't commend that to you, but can we perhaps have a word with the officers at a later stage, take it on board what both Graham and Anne have been saying, and obviously not trying to do that in a meeting like this but try to prepare for it a month before-hand. +Is that reasonable at this stage? +Yes +so we can get progress? +Chair, could I make, could I suggest maybe that in future when you ask organisations you make it harder for getting a license for street collection, that you tell them that you'll want to know exactly the proportions, but I mean put it back on to them, rather than be you having to bother to it in the future. +Right, is that not done? +It is to a degree, on the application form that each charity receives, it has to state whether it collects for people in the Oxford area, but not as a percentage. +I think that, more, not sort of say a general question like that, but say that after the collection has happened that you want returns for the number of people in Oxford that have benefited from the number of groups in Oxford that have benefited. +I mean, I think a lot of national organisations that are giving, I trust that are giving money to people actually do want to know that sort of detail about where the money is going, because, if I go through this, I mean, I would have to say that I should imagine that a very small percentage of the money that has been collected on these flag days will actually get back into Oxfordshire. +I mean, my knowledge of the organisations that are there tells me that. +I mean there's organisations like Oxrad that clearly, the money will only be spent in Oxford city. +And the bit about it is that there may well be other small organisations that might, erm be better, erm I mean, have, might benefit people more in Oxford city, or in Oxfordshire, aren't getting in because +No, that's not the case, it's open to them to apply in any event. +I know, but what I mean is that when they see the city centre, the people who are walking up and down the city centre, they see all the national charities, they don't necessarily feel that they're organised in the same way and therefore that they should be participating, and the whole palaver of getting a licence and applying is actually quite difficult, it's not a simple, it's not something, we get numerous telephone calls in the office saying ‘Well can I go out next Saturday and rattle a tin for such-and-such’, and you say ‘Well, you can't’, and it's left much too late, so that people don't know about the way you get licenses to rattle tins in city centre. +Don't know about the issues to do with house-to-house collection. +Are we getting, erm collecting erm in the shopping centres. +They just don't actually have that information, a lot of small local groups, and I think maybe the C B S could work with the Engineers department in future years and try to get to those groups, because I'm sure a lot of them, actually if they were given the opportunity in time to get in, that, that you might have a lot of people applying for flag and whatever than you do now. +Well, by all means, let's do that, and has been represented in committee for some time, we have responsibility for licenses for some time, and if there isn't a dialogue now, then there'll be a good reason why there isn't, and I, I take what you say, Liz. +But certainly, if we have something like fifty applications, then we'd be into a much more complex procedure. +We can see why we don't, and I'm not clear about the reasons why we don't, but there you are, Michael. +Chair, another query about a couple of the comments made just now, about priority being given to organisations which disclaim their proceeds in Oxford or Oxfordshire. +I had a cheque for some thirteen hundred pounds raised by the local branch of National body, a body like Round Table, although it wasn't Round Table, it was another body like that, and that will buy thirteen houses in Everland in Southern India. +Well, not a single penny will be spent in Oxford or Oxfordshire. +Now, am I to take it that sort of appeal will have a very low priority, I mean, how about Oxfam for example? +Oxfam doesn't have a low priority, clearly, erm there are, certainly we have an S.O fifty-three procedure for disasters and so forth. +But there isn't a direct slot, Michael, you're right, for a project such as the one you've just described. +I mean, maybe what I'm hearing from the committee is that we take it back and look at the criteria and the ground rules. +I just would suggest that we don't do it in this committee. +But what we certainly can do is take note of what you've said, and ensure that we get it together for you to be consulted before we take decisions next year. +Graham, you've had two bites, and I really +I was only going to agree with you actually, and I was just going to back-up what Michael said, and say that obviously we've got people like Amnesty International, and I know it's a very hard-working local branch, but obviously, the money it's raised is going to benefit people overseas. +Hopefully so, hopefully we haven't got people within the city of Oxford that need Amnesty's help! +Right, can I leave you then to the recommendations on page sixteen, notwithstanding all of the suggestions and comments that have been made, that we this year grant twenty-one Saturday City Centre permits, and the officers are clear twenty-one and not twenty-three, that we grant eleven City Centre, mid-week and suburban permits, and do you note that whoever is unsuccessful in obtaining Saturday City Centre permit will be granted one of those and given priority. +Yes? +Will you agree to grant three band collection permits, which you've done before, which are usually great fun, I must say. +And D is part of what Michael is saying, it gives the chair, vice-chair, opposition liaison member the discretion to allow for usually natural disasters, and we would obviously want that discretion with your support. +There's one final thing, and that is on page fifteen at the bottom, it's a list of organisations which were given permits for St Michael the Northgate. +And I'm not quite sure why Age Concern, which has had this for I think at least twenty years for their Christmas Carols, which is not included. +But I don't, the fact that they're not included does not mean that they can't have it, because that would be disastrous, because they do rely on that +It doesn't, they just haven't requested it this year. +Well, I mean, that is absolutely nonsense, it's tradition, I'm sure they'll have it. +Can you take that up with Age Concern, Anne? +There's a limit as to how much we can do for half the people in this committee are members +But you see it's inaccurate anyway, because it's five two during nineteen ninety five, and they had it +This year +They did for last year. +I mean, it's for Christmas this year that we want it. +Well, can you get them together with Katherine fairly rapidly, is that a good idea? +I mean, there's enabling and enabling, isn't there for heaven's sake. +Chair, on the recommendations erm on item D, I'm a bit unhappy about the use of the term ‘natural’ disasters, because I believe that many of the disasters that people in Oxford are actually giving money for are man made disasters, particularly matters of international economics and the unfair burden, erm unfair distribution of wealth which places a whole sector of the world in poverty, and I think, you know, you do get a magnificent response from people in Oxford to these charities, and we must be aware that there are a whole number of greater issues involved, and while I hear what you're saying earlier on about you can't take on the problems of the whole world, I think when people are actually giving money to charities for example, like Oxfam, they are often unaware of these issues, and we do have a wider role in making the, joining with organisations like Oxfam in spreading public awareness on these issues. +Right, I agree with that, and I think that we'll simply leave out the word ‘natural’ in future, won't we. +Have we agreed that as a committee? +Indeed, we have all agreed, I take it the recommendations under eight one in order that we can make progress. +Which left the word in? +So that we can report back, a month before decision time next time round? +Are you happy with that? +Item seven then is on page twenty-seven. +This is flag day, which essentially means house-to-house. +Is there anything you want to say about that, Katherine at this stage? +No, it's quite straightforward. +Right, the only comment I have is members will remember that we got slapped in council last year because we issued a permit to LIFE for a flag day application. +I sat down with LIFE and worked through their philosophy, erm in line with our own as it were, and they agreed, and I would ask them to agree this year that any paperwork or any leaflets they distribute make it very clear that a choice remains for a woman in terms of whether or not she should have an abortion, because LIFE is fairly, yes, Michael? +Did you check their tenancy agreement, because it was a pretty Machiavellian, Dickensian tenancy agreement, if you're found smoking in bed for example, you were out the next morning, those sort of things, and I think you really ought to look at that very carefully. +We certainly did last year, there's no reason why we can't monitor it again, so they know we are watching them quite carefully. +That might have been for very good environmental and health reasons. +Yes, I should hope so. +I think I would commend LIFE to you, but it will be with the same conditions and terms as we did last year, with which they did comply. +Are there other questions of queries on flag days or are you happy to approve them as they stand. +That's on page twenty-seven, six one, twenty four flag day permits to be approved, and we allow the officer to decide how they will best be distributed across the city. +Are you happy with that? +And then on six two, do you wish to grant a permit to allow a flag day to take place on one or two days during nineteen ninety-one, for the Royal British Legion? +Can I have someone move something on that, please? +Yes, I'd move that erm they'd be granted two days. +I'll second that. +And you'll second that, cross-party approach to this, are you all agreed? +Thank you very much indeed. +Can I ask, I know we've got Amanda Root here, who's going to help us in the Health Action Area Report, I also know that she has an ailing child, can we then take the item eleven, health action areas now on page fifty-eight, so that we can let Amanda go back to her commitments. +The joint report from Amanda and Phil. +Amanda, do you want to kick off on this? +Thank you chair, erm many of you will perhaps know that the health authority did some pioneering work looking at different standard mortality ratios in different wards in Oxfordshire, and came up with some rather disturbing evidence that some of the wards had significantly higher incidents of death for people primarily in the forty-five to sixty-four age range than others, and Phil and myself wish to continue that work by targeting those wards with a range of measures designed to alleviate some of those health inequalities. +And in this report, we've just outlined a very preliminary start to what we're doing. +We'd obviously, we'd like to get the agreement of this committee to continue that work and to take it up to the various bodies and consultation. +And, erm to develop it there's a timetable in the appendices about the progress we envisage making. +We'd like to confirm by the end of this year which wards we're targeting and how we're targeting them, which range of erm measures that we're going to undertake. +is that we've been involved in health strategy for the past over five years. +The ultimate test of any health in the city strategy is what we do about the health divide. +We have to do something about the equity target. +And that's extremely difficult to do something about the equity target, since National policy, the distribution of income, housing policy, all the things that we tackle on this committee and committees of the council have a very significant effect on the health of the people who live in the city, and it's not in our control. +Nevertheless, it's our belief that through health promotion programmes which involve cooperation with communities themselves, that we can in fact do as much as we possibly can do to actually alleviate some of the erm differences in health status. +So our belief is that erm with the relationship we've been able to build up in this city, with confrontation and community participation, with the targeting of the small resources that we do have, as a council in collaboration with the other, the resources of the other bodies, that we can in fact do something. +So I'll do this and I think Amanda would agree with this that this is the ultimate test that will help us in establishing can we actually do something about target one of the World Health Organisation, which is to narrow the health divide. +That's out test. +I would also add to that that I think such work would help us in terms of targeting more effectively the existing resources we have in terms of service delivery. +Are there any questions? +Sheila? +Chair, I'd like to ask Amanda, I did St Clements and Petersfield . +Is there any possibility of, in the near future of doing a council estate, like Barton or Blackbird Leys? +erm Yes, certainly, I, I would suggest East and St Clements because they have got quite high ethnic populations, and we can perhaps be hoping to start there, because Environmental Health's already worked there, targeting some of the multi-occupation properties, so they've got a very high proportion of black people living there, which means that they're also quite important in the sense of deprivation, but, I mean, we are also very conscious that we should be working on a council estate, and what we, what I would like to do is to simultaneously be starting working in erm a particular sets of communities, is to be given work in consultation in other wards, so that you know, six months down the line before . +But thanks for the point, and I mean, I'll make a note of that and take it up to the health authority. +Betty and then Ruth. +I'm a little surprised, chair, I could ask Amanda, but erm, Iffley is erm on the list, bearing in mind, recalling the erm point figures, where Iffley are if I recall correct was fairly well down on the league table, and Marston was something like erm six or some place. +erm What connection is there between unemployment and deprivation? +Thank you. +erm I agree, and I actually think these figures are relatively crude, but I mean, there is, clearly there are correlations between low income, which most I mean unemployed people have of course got, and ill health. +But certainly, something like Iffley's relatively surprising, it could well be, it might be because there's quite a high proportion of retired people or something, so the figures are actually distorted. +erm What, what we're hoping is that erm the university's undertaking some research to actually look at the links between very small geographic areas, postcode in fact, and ill health. +So when that research becomes available, we'll actually be able to be much, much more specific about where we're targeting, because I agree it's, you know, some of these are somewhat surprising. +Nonnie +Yes, in one five, erm they're practising notes from Eynsham it does happen to be in Cherwell ward and not North ward, erm there is a booklet out about health and housing in Cutteslowe, and I wondered what the connection between, you know, not being on this committee, but these health action areas, and what in fact is happening in housing, because the director did assure me that other wards were going to be treated to the same erm treatment. +So I don't know whether that is what's referred to? +Hang on, can I just check out your question, certainly we've taken the Cutteslowe health and housing audit to this committee, and so has housing +Yes, yes, but that's not going to be the only one, as I understand it. +That was an external one in fact +Yes, is that's what's being referred to erm by the university work, because I think it's +It isn't actually +Is that so? +It isn't. +The other question I've got is presumably all this is still being done within what we've got in the budget, or is it, are there going to be extra bids? +You know the answer to that question, Non, there's going to be no extra bids. +No extra bids. +This particular section's taken some slices already, so we'd better watch what we say to them. +They're doing it within their own time and resources, but it does seem to me to be a very appropriate area for Michael? +Thank you +It's certainly will be difficult, Chair, but in answer to Mrs Tidley, what's happening to our housing, the answer is we've stopped building it. +Government policy we don't build any housing, and therefore we've got five thousand on the waiting list, and that's why health is a major problem for a lot of people in this city, because we're not building any houses, she knows that, and she and her party do nothing about it. +We're doing an awful lot in +Thank you, Gerald. +Yes, well, I particularly welcome this erm concentration on areas, I think it's an excellent idea, particularly in relation to housing, I think what we will find interesting is that a whole number of Oxford citizens, perhaps indeed from Barton, Blackbird Leys, Marston originally, who are badly housed in these areas and waiting in the most appalling accommodation for the opportunity of a council home. +And I'm sure that this report on the health action area is going to show some fairly, erm give us some fairly staggering erm revelations about about the health of Oxford citizens that's going to surprise people at large when they find out how badly people have fared over the past ten years when we've had the Tories in office who've really done their very, very best to make the health divide of this country in a very poor state. +Hear, hear +Thank you, Anne +Sorry I was going to go down to get an authorization from Age Concern, I missed the first bit, but erm if resources are allowed for this work, would it not be better to aim them at priority areas, and not wards, I mean, in other words, to put it to the areas that needed most. +I mean a ward is going to be seen as rather a big area, when within wards there are priority areas. +That was really my point. +I don't think I'll bother to answer the remarks that others need to say of course tremendous resources have gone into the health service over the past few years, but I think whatever government is in power, it will never be enough for all the new developments in the health service, and that is always the trouble, whoever would be there would find it difficult. +erm Your comment on wards, I think this is a way of the officers giving us something to work on and take a decision on. +Once they have a decision to work, then I would doubt very much actually they're going to be into every corner of St Clements and East, or ignoring council estates altogether. +We have to allow them to take some decisions within our decision, I think, but I'm sure they'll take your point anyway. +Diana, and then we ought to come to a decision. +Yes, I'm sure, I mean we obviously all appreciate the fact that within wards there's an area of deprivation and an area that isn't deprived. +I mean, many, many wards, but that doesn't mean that we should therefore ignore a ward because it's got an area that is not deprived, you've got the, I think that by choosing East and St Clements as areas, that they seem then quite sensible areas to start with, nice central, fairly central location. +I was going to say, when it comes to paragraph five, do you erm suggest that you actually think in terms of church organisations, they're not mentioned, and I look forward in in paragraph seven one to the seminar, the working seminar that's going to be in the near future, and I hope that we'll soon get a date, so that we can get it in our very busy diaries, in the hope that we can come along and learn more about this. +Thanks very much, Diana. +Could we add mosques as well to the churches, please? +I'm sorry, I should have said all religious groups. +All religious groups ! +Can we come to a decision there please. +Yes, just on the sub-ward level, of course there's really, there's a lot more investigations to go into targeting the resources, just I mean to target them in a city by having these standard mortality ratios for wards, but they're all below ward level, and target the specific areas. +erm That's one point, the other point is of course, we have already targeted of course in working with the groups that we've defined as erm ones whose health status is at risk in effect, so this is a supplement, this is actually translating those targets we have already defined into a locality planning exercise. +So we're testing, those priorities are still holding for us that but we're applying them to the localities. +Thanks very much. +Can I direct you then to page sixty-one, recommendations in paragraph eight. +You're asked to support the general move, that we have set out from this report, and you're asked to agree to St Clements and East Ward, and I think we've heard Mandy and Phil acknowledge that there may well be a case for looking at an area of council housing, which we will leave them to do, and also to approve the set of objectives, which I particularly welcome, on page sixty-two and sixty-three, which will amount to a work programme, which I would have thought we were all very pleased to see. +Can we endorse that, and ask the officers to come back to us and keep us in touch with their work. +Are you agreed? +Thanks very much indeed, thank you both, and I . +We need to move somewhat quickly, and I am reminded that, I did see Caroline come in, but we have two people who've come in connection with item fifteen, Community Concerns in East Oxford, are you agreed that we take that now, so that they can +I think it ties in very well with the item we've just discussed. +Thank you, Graham. +Item fifteen, and Shereen has just arrived as well. +Caroline and your visitor, would you like to join us at the table, if you want to join in. +So we're turning to page seventy-five. +The paper is in fact written by Shereen. +I don't want you to think, Caroline that we are acquitting you rapidly, I will try to acquit you rapidly, but I am also delivering what you've come for. +Well, thank you, chair, for inviting me here. +erm do you want me to speak to this +Please do. +Caroline Morrell, from OCADU, do you want to press your button, Caroline, so that everybody will please sit down normally and naturally, and maybe moved a bit closer to you, they'll pick up what you're saying. +erm But I raised this at the alcohol forum, because erm sometime this summer I had a phone call from Mr Bailey here, who is a resident of East Oxford, to express his concern about various problems erm in East Oxford, problems that were posed to residents there. +erm I think in fact it would be better to ask Mr Bailey to explain what his concerns were erm I'd just like to say first although initially it revolves around problems of drinking, I'm looking at other issues of East Oxford, in that recently there's been a great deal of concern about glue sniffing in sections there, and there have been various letters from residents in the local newspapers, and I think there's a general level of problem for people living in East Oxford, and it's not just that the people there want the streets cleaned up or whatever, they want something constructive and helpful to be done for people. +So +Welcome, would you like to take two or three minutes to talk to us about your concerns. +Right. +I should say first how this matter arose. +It arose because some neighbours in my street effectively started behaving which was totally antisocial. +There was a small group of young people who, as it happens were also associated with the bed-and-breakfast on Iffley Road, erm and several of them had moved between this house and the bed-and-breakfast. +Their activities ranged throughout the day and night and reached a peak of basically making a noise nuisance of themselves, there were other troubles which I will mention later, in which they would be playing two or three different sound systems, and at its worst, a full drum set in the early hours of the morning, obviously keeping their near neighbours not only awake but in a state of some anxiety. +I live directly opposite to them, and there were two of their neighbours who effectively unable to carry on a normal life throughout most of the time that they were there. +This was taking place on five or six nights until early mornings a week for several hours. +Eventually a noise abatement notice was served on them, and erm immediately after that the landlord offered them a hundred pounds to leave, and they left. +He did that because they had not only annoying his neighbours, sorry, their neighbours, because he had once been one of our neighbours, but also they had damaged his house, and they had already cost him probably about two hundred pounds in repair bills until the house itself, broken doors, window erm the wall, and bit of the roof and so on, and there was every reason to believe that this would just carry on. +Now, erm I think I should make clear that I have some personal feelings on this, and I just want to say something very briefly about my neighbours, something I actually don't agree with . +erm There is a general concern I think with multiple occupancy that there's, a whole way of life of East Oxford is changing, and not for the better, and indeed I was part of this when I moved into the area ten years ago. +erm And the, a lot of this was not specific to drug or alcohol abuse but simply to multiple occupancy. +And we've now reached a situation in which there's something over twenty percent of our streets is multiple occupation, erm and this is noise and other activities in relation to that are the things that cause the sort of low level of concern, and this was just the peak on top of that of major aggravation. +erm I think there are one or two of the elderly tenants in particular who felt really very anxious about activities at night time, and they're going to have their property stolen, or things thrown at their house. +I mean these people, there's things like throwing broken milk bottles, throwing milk bottles into peoples yards, removing bicycles, picking up my bicycle, as it happens, and throwing it down several times, erm going down the streets playing a sound system full volume at two o'clock in the morning, which generally left people feeling they didn't know what was happening. +This was only part of a general sort of pattern as it were, where people were beginning to impinge on their lives, there was another well-known local alcoholic there who was knocking on doors trying to get money off people, and there's several elderly people who gave this woman money, because they were frightened that if they didn't something would happen to them. +So I think I can express some of my neighbours concerns, unless, particularly, not particularly worried about those, but there is a general feeling that things are getting worse, and that they're not safe in their own homes, among the more elderly. +erm And obviously a few people don't like the sight of people on the Cowley, the Cowley Hospital site, and things like that. +This doesn't concern me. +I do feel I'd like to say one point about the people who were in this house, that it's quite clear, all of them I believe were under care of the social services, erm and I don't know enough about their history to say whether they, where they've been before, whether they've been in some half-way house, or just been thrown out of some mental institution. +I'm virtually certain that the woman from whom we had most of the aggravation had been. +She was clearly mentally disturbed, and the reason that I got in touch with the legal project was to see if there's anything that could be done by them to start giving her some way of getting in touch, getting to solve her problem. +Obviously this was done out of self interest, but I really, the woman was in real pain. +She was an extremely angry, very bitter woman, who was determined to get everybody around her as angry as she could, and she succeeded, and I don't know where she's moved now, but I'm sure she will go on and do the same thing, and frankly, I despair of anything being done unless there is some provision made for people such as herself, and one of her friends in particular. +That's really what I'd like to say. +Thank you very much indeed, I think that's fairly fair, but none-the-less honest way of setting out your feelings. +This is quite a specific issue, and I'm not sure that this committee on this day is in the best position to discuss it in detail. +Obviously I'll take your advice on that. +I do think as far as placing people in houses in multi-occupation, we acknowledge that. +How is it done, by whom, who thinks about it, is it planned, is there support, and for that reason we are arranging a meeting, Frank, together with the Health Authority with all those agencies who do place people, sometimes quite sick people as you rightly point out. +So that is certainly on line. +Now, I know that what Shereen asks us to do, and I'm sure Caroline as well, is to organise a multi-agency meeting. +We've done this on the proposed East Oxford Education centre. +I think we can very usefully do this, and iron our way to this. +What we need from you is really a specific proposal about the kinds of groups and individuals that you want us to sit down with. +You can either do that now, or we can agree in principle that we will take this up. +Perhaps chair, vice chair, and opposition liaison member if you feel that's suitable. +And call such a meeting. +I think it will a long way, but you're quite to draw it to us, and to ask us to set out on that road. +Michael? +Yes, chair. +What sort of people would you involve in this meeting. +I mean there's a lot of voluntary organisations who are working in this field, I don't know how you would just make sure you got them all. +The resources are pitifully small. +I mean, I'm involved in doing some statistics for Windmill House, the probation service, and we've found that the sixteen-to-eighteen-year-old provision in the city is very, very small. +I'm sure it's the same for many of the other groups who've got problems. +But, erm I hope you involve all those sort of organisations in your discussions. +I would imagine that Shereen would apply the same kind of pattern as you did to the de-toxification centre meeting, Shereen, and I felt that there were a great many people there, a great many interested, including the voluntary interest. +Betty? +Well, of course, chair, a lot of these problems are arising out of the so-called ‘care in community’. +I was hoping we'd avoid the political discussion, Betty. +Well, you know, I mean. +We've a job to do here. +Well, you know me, I don't normally become political, but let's face it, this is one of the direct results of throwing the money to the community without any after care, and I was particularly concerned, with my other hat on, only last week, that a young man told us his address was now the night shelter. +Now, because his time at the Bridge had ended, he had nowhere else to go, except to the Nightshelter. +Now, I thought that was quite inappropriate for a young man like him, who had nowhere else to go, so there are many, many multiple problems for people like this in this city, and anything we can do would be appreciated, but I really don't know where we would stop, there are so many problems. +I would ask members to be brief, otherwise we shall actually lose matters off this agenda today. +Liz, and then Patrick. +Chair, can I suggest that some of the people who are actually involved in this are actually asked themselves rather than agencies that might be working with them, because I think that, that most of the, the sort of people we're talking about are actually very sensitive. +And they know about what's happening to them, and know that at the end of the day, it doesn't matter about what their behaviour is, it doesn't matter about what happens to them, because nobody cares. +And I think it's very, very important that they're involved. +Through the Princes' Trust in the month we actually give grants to something like twenty people, just to get them off the street, because there was nowhere else they could turn to. +And I think that there's a massive problem that needs to be addressed, and I think we should involve those people themselves, also in looking at what the issues are, it's all very well for people to decide, workers to think that they know what the issues are. +I very often think that that's not the case. +Yes, I think we'd all agree with that. +Patrick? +Thanks, erm the report refers to East Oxford, which is of course for two wards, East and St Clement's, but the problem extends city-wide, and I think the solution should be seen as a city-wide solution. +Yes. +Do you want to finally come back? +Yes, I'd like to add one point, matters that the house continues in multiple occupancy and is successful at the present, and the landlord is not prepared to say that he is being now an agent of some hospital or other. +I'm sure that he is, the people who've come from there, quite clearly recovering alcoholics or mental hospital patients, or possibly people from prison, and I've known enough people in my time to know this. +And it is working very, very successful at the moment with the current set of tenants. +However, there's clearly a need for some sort of monitoring and for some support erm other than erm some other support. +The landlord is not prepared to come up front and say that's what he's doing. +Unfortunately, I suspect because he fears a reaction from his neighbours, and I'm afraid he's right. +He'd be very aware of what's likely to happen. +He is trying to do something about it, though, I'm sure. +Right, and this will call for some sensitivity in terms of how we handle this. +Caroline and Shereen, is there anything else you want to comment on, otherwise I would ask that you'd come back to me on this in more detail. +I think I'd just like to add that I think that this could possibly be a very big piece of work. +Exactly. +And I think it would actually need, if it's going to be taken on board, somebody appointed to look at this, or it be put in somebody's job brief and I would have thought ideally that it would be placed with the community worker, and I don't know quite how we're placed for community workers in East Oxford, but maybe it's something we could put to that department. +I hear what you say, and I hesitate to make any further comment on that, given the current climate, but let's set about just examining the shape of the difficulty at the moment, and see what we can as it were immediately deal with ourselves, and what we can try and persuade other people to help us to know . +Will you come back to me in terms of who you want to invite, taking on Liz Kermey's point about involving people themselves if they so wish, and we'll consult with the opposition liaison member and the vice-chair. +But in principle we agree do we not, to back multi-agency meeting, given what we said in the discussion and we will come back to you with something that's maybe a bit more specific, and more easy to discuss, may I say. +Thank you very much indeed for coming. +Thank you. +Thank you, thank you for bringing it forward. +Thank you very much. +We're back to the normal agenda, item eight on page thirty-six. +Will you also while you're looking at this look at page thirty-seven, which is the pollution and nuclear issues control sub-committee. +You will see there there has been a detailed discussion on this white paper, and members from that sub-committee made comments. +I would suggest we do not need a second read of the discussion, but that can people keep an eye on , or try and change what is already there on pollution itself. +Peter, you're introducing this on page thirty-six. +Yes, I think it's totally clear that what we need is a short message, and it's a white paper, and therefore it's inviting a message, so what we really need is a short message to go with the A B C and the government act on the two S P's and I would give an undertaking at this point that it will go under the chief environmental health officers' name. +Yes, quite. +While you're thinking about it, there are three quick things that you might like to add in, one is on page seventy-four, which, erm seventy-four? +I think it's seventy-nine, Peter. +Yes, seventy-nine, it's the, in particular one a, I think concerns this community greatly. +The document included no indication of the role of local authorities, or the resources needed by local authorities. +We intend to take this recommendation for action. +And if you actually look at this paper, there's quite a bit at the end of the day that the local authority will need to do, and I think we need to underline that and to get money. +The second point, briefly, is that the white paper has turned its face on the establishment of an environmental protection agency, and independent environment protection agency, and erm, you may feel strongly, I know there was another report that came out just about that time that erm was advocating it, and you may feel that what is needed is a central, independent environmental protection agency. +This paper only gives erm an, what is called an integrated pollution inspectorate, now unfortunately with those sort of central inspectorates is that after the public's attention has drifted on, they tend to be erm, they tend to dwindle in numbers, as we've seen with the present pollution inspectorate. +Now, thirdly, is on this question of C O 2 emission. +If you look at the report, White Paper, you'll notice that it's sticking to a, a freezing of the nineteen-ninety levels by the year two thousand and five, and you may feel that you would like to see this country come more into line with the other E E C countries and ask for a freezing by the year two thousand. +So those are three, anyway, three things erm that you might like to think about for a short message for a response to the White Paper. +Michael. +And can I ask members not to repeat the discussion of the pollution sub. +Just be very brief, chair, erm could I ask that we have a report before council on this, and I know it will be an extra two hours on the poor council debate, but I think this is so important, and it does affect the planet for hundreds of years to come, and I think if we can't have a discussion on this in full council, well, it's the most important thing we've had for years probably, and I think we should have a discussion before council sit. +Can I ask for a list of the full report before council, so it will give us a chance to have a debate there rather than here. +You can, and we will. +Anne? +It was just on a minute on page seventy-nine, I think we want to get the support of local M Ps, one a has I think, has been just indicated, is contradictory, it might be better to say, ‘although the document indicated that local authorities would be expected to undertake extra, an extra, or extra duties, the resources needed are, no indication was given of how there would be extra resources, or something like that, you see it's contradictory at the moment, it says there's no indication of the role, and then says that they would need resources, and actually if you look through the document, you will see from time-to-time it is indicated what local authorities are expected to do, for instance recycling of litter and the lot, and I think that that might be actually picked up by M P's and say, ‘Well, what actually have you, do you mean to say’, well, what we're really saying, are we not, that here is an indication of things that we're expected to do, but as usual, of course , the government hasn't indicated what erm where the resources were coming from. +Kate? +Sorry, chair, would you wish, when we consider this, do you wish to make the amendment? +Well, you won't be able to do that until we do consider the, I mean, but, the reason I referred to page seventy-nine, is to ensure that we do not repeat ourselves, and that those of us on the sub-committee, remember what we said then, and decide whether we want to repeat that. +I mean, on the items of wording, I mean, that can be done on two sub-committees. +Yes, fine, I just asked, just checking. +Are there items that people, I mean, I take the point about freezing C O 2 emissions. +That's woolly to say the least. +We may want to make the point that if we are to be committed to doing something about the global warming of the ozone layer then we will need to say when we will do it by. +And ensure there's a programme which achieves that. +Are there any other additions to that, if not Patrick. +Yes, I'd like to support Michael in the setting up of an environmental protection agency. +I think that if we leave it to +I don't think it was Michael who suggested it. +No, I didn't. +Well! +It was Peter. +Oh, yes, Peter, sorry. +I think it would skip to environment being the prerogative of local authorities, there will be a great variation across the country, and I don't think anybody seriously would expect that to happen about health and safety at work, and I think the same should be true of the environment. +Right, just to move us on, then, since you're all going to have a go at this at council, yes? +Sorry, I just wanted to refer to page eighty-one, erm sixth form conference, thirty-three. +Yes +erm Students will be asked to report back to the next erm sub-committee +Yes they will +So, shall we have a full report then to the next environment and health protection sub-committee of that report. +Yes. +Can I just bring you back to the item before us, which is ‘This Common Inheritance’, and ask you to endorse the sub-committees suggestions, i.e. repeat them, as comments from the health committee, with the additions from the vice-chair on environmental protection agency. +on point more adequately made by the deputy about C O two emission, are there any other comments that people want to make, or are you agreed that we refer back to council as it is? +Are we then taking up the point that Liz Spokes made on item one a, on page seven. +Procedurally Nonnie we can't do that till we come to the sub committee. +Well, so that is how it's going to council. +I think it's a great pity. +Clearly that will not be the case that that's how it goes to council. +But procedurally, we can amend it when we get to the sub-committee. +Is the sub-committee then going to meet before council. +No, we have not yet taken the minutes for this sub-committee, I have simply asked you to take it together with this agenda item. +All I was going to say was that clearly I agree with one thing, but one would assume that as the paper is a really a general outline that we would be seeing specific targets as the agenda's worked through over the next two three years. +Oh, yes, if the government's still there, I'm sure they'll do that, yes. +Thank you Graham. +Well, I think they'll be a government still there! +No, yours. +Labour! +Can I then move you on, and we will correct the pollution and control sub committee minutes when we get to them just and Nonnie. +Item nine, there's a report for the half year ending on page forty-one, Tony? +Yes, chair, erm, I was supposed to give the figures if they'd come out at this time. +You'll notice one or two minor changes. +You'll notice that instead of complaints signed in what would be technically the paragraph where they talk about service requests, because many of the requests we get from members of the public to provide a service are not necessarily complaints, but they do need our help. +You'll see that both the number of requests for service, and the number of visits made are well up on previous half years, and although some of that is due to probably the highest figure on insect complaints we've ever had for six months, and erm it's not all that, much of it is lately the department has been very, very busy indeed. +On food control, the level of food hygiene inspections at seven hundred and thirty we've achieved by buying in consultants to do some work for us in our priority area, and we're were able to do that with Derek Welk's retirement, leaving us with some unspent staff , and so we've achieved a higher figure there than we expected we would do. +erm My cause for concern, and I think it's one that's been echoed in a number of places, is the still very high figure for food-poisoning outbreaks, for food-poisoning cases, erm you'll see we're not as high as the previous comparable half-year of last year, which was ninety-two, but that included the Keble outbreak, which you're well aware of, but at thirty-two for Oxford for a half year, that's a very high figure. +We haven't had that sort of figure very often before. +erm The national figure seems to be, the national figure of food poisoning cases this year looks like being in excess of sixty thousand. +erm it was around fifty-four thousand last year, and the figure's just going up and up. +The answer to it I just don't know, but the Food Safety Act deals with some of the future, some of the future objectives in terms of better training for people who handle food, and tighter controls on food businesses, so it's something to look forward to, and hopefully in years to come the figure will begin to drop. +On erm food and noise, we're still very, very busy indeed, and our figure for noise inspection is higher than it ever has been before, and the comment that was made under that section will show you that some of that most certainly is the amount of work that the team had to carry out during the summer, one of the benefits of our glorious summer is that most of us slept with our windows fully open for three months or more and one of the dis-benefits was that if anybody else down the road had a party that went beyond normal bed-time, everybody shared that, and our team was very busy in consequence. +erm On occupational health, and I don't plead for those figures, because for a time, until Helen left to have her baby, we were fully staffed, and the number of inspections and the number of notices served and the number of prohibition notices served are very encouraging indeed. +The impact of the section has been very broadly based in the city, and for the first time we've added for you in very brief terms, a Domiciliary Health information of just the total number of visits made by the city health care, erm and the level of work in terms of notices served, and prosecutions, note, going up in most of the sections, particularly their units they're small numbers, but they are significant, just the same, and the table on the top of page forty-four, erm as I said earlier, I think we reached the highest level of insect complaints in the summer that we've ever had to deal with, it's very usual for us to deal with a thousand, over in the summer period, this time we dealt with sixteen hundred. +An amazing amount of work carried out by the three members of the pest control team, with some additional help with larger jobs during the summer period. +Thank you, Tony. +I'd remind members that this report also goes to council. +It's very useful if you have detailed questions on this particular report that you do let myself and the chief know well in advance, so that you get a detailed answer, quite frankly. +erm I've seen Graham, Anne and Diane. +Yes, erm very, very quickly, erm I notice that the swimming pool and river bathing visits had more than doubled, I just wondered what the cause of that was, and whether in fact it was mainly related to the swimming pools or to the river bathing bit erm places, and the second one is, regarding the noise, I notice that it has shot up, the number of visits to seven twenty one, but in fact, the prosecution's only gone up to one, and I wondered if Mr Fenn could tell us whether in fact because of the higher profile that had been given to this erm activity, due to its possible cut, whether in fact more people are aware of it and there were more +Undoubtedly +should we say, complaints of a casual nature, rather than a particularly serious nature? +Well,. +erm On the question of the river samples and pool samples, yes, I think one of the city pools, one of the school pools we had a bit of a problem, so that took much of concentrated attention of it for a period of two or three weeks, so that's probably a reflection, I don't think much of it relates to the river sample. +We take samples throughout the year from the river, but they're really at background level, and not very helpful I must admit, in terms of getting the quality of the river improved, we can't do that. +On the noise question, yes, undoubtedly the increased erm number of complaints is partly due to the higher profile that was achieved during the summer, but erm no, I don't think that the complaints were frivolous, they were complaints that were, that needed attention, and there will be one or two prosecutions following through. +Remember this set of figures closes on thirtieth of September. +Very often prosecutions follow on sometime after the event happens. +It may be worth saying, Tony that Graham's already talked to officers and it's worth your while talking to people on the house-to-house duty rota. +Parties then with noise, just imagine going up to the door where there are fifty or sixty seething people in there. +In order to serve a notice you have to get a name, and that's enormously difficult, because I mean, practical difficulties need to be taken on board, Anne and then Diana. +Well, having had to avail ourselves of the help of the officer who got rid of our gigantic wasp nest, I should like to say what a superb job they do, but I just wondered in view of the tremendous number, whether there is some kind of way of preventions. +I know in our case, and therefore probably in a lot that it isn't always possible, they'll always find a way in, but if there was some perhaps advice to people it might bring down this number of complaints, that you could perhaps do before the wasp season begins, I don't know whether that's a possibility or not. +I don't think it's possible, chair, but I will talk with Clive Williams who's our expert in that. +I think the main reason for so many wasps this year is to, warm summers, and but it's basically the long summer period, because we started, you see on the wasp complaints in May, which we don't really start until half way through June, and we kept going right through, right until the middle of October, and they normally stop round the end of August, so that's the main reason; a very long, hot summer. +Thanks. +I'd like to second Anne's congratulations really, to the, to the men who deal with wasps nest, because they're very usually men who come along! +They are all men. +They are? +Well, I know he was a man, I saw him! +All of them are. +And, I certainly have taken steps to make sure that I don't get a wasps nest, but in that particular area again, because he begged to point out to me where the wasp was getting access to, a little tiny space above my bedroom window, and that has now been sealed, so hopefully the wasps another year will find a home somewhere else that isn't quite so close to my open bedroom window. +So perhaps if people were aware of some of the places where wasps can go within their home, they might be able to sort of take those conscious That wasn't actually what I had +Well, be quick then! +Nothing, nothing fascinating. +I just wanted to know what on page forty-two under ‘Water sampling’, what the bracketing figures say four u stroke s, one u stroke s, etcetera meant, and on page forty-three, why under ‘programme and revisiting inspection’ this four one nine p was starred. +I just wondered what those contexts and you will be bound to be asked it in council if it's not asked now. +Thank you very much, Diana. +Thank you. +Chair, we do class as unsatisfactory those samples that the laboratory would covers don't reach certain standards, whatever the standard may be, and that's why we concentrate on that figure that the bathing unsatisfactory at one particular pool, where there was a serious problem. +And the starred items, I think the starred items, I'm not sure now, I think, can you help here? +No, I'm sorry, Ken. +I'm pretty sure that the +Programmed visits? +Programmed visits, yes, I think they'll have been debt inspections that have carried out, whereas the higher figures above them are audit, and these are the ones that take more time, and are programmed to deal with everything, you know. +May I suggest, may I suggest that's put on the report before it goes to council. +Thank you, Nonnie finally +Yes, erm on page forty-one, ‘unsatisfactory samples’, we have six others, erm is there a general category below six, like meat or something like that? +If there was a general category, I think it would be put, however. +Yes. +The category ‘others’, under ‘unsatisfactory samples of food’ six. +Yes, they could be a range of things, chair, I'll check out what they are and make sure you've got some +Okay, Nonnie. +Yes. +The only other thing I would say is that you've got domiciliary health there on the bottom of page forty-three for the first time, a thing that we certainly asked for on your behalf. +I suggest that the figures you've got before you are not terribly, terribly useful, and that you do invite domiciliary health to come back to you for three months to talk to you about their work in terms of the visits, the visits that they do. +It will be a whole lot clearer to you then, but it's there basically because it was asked for, it's inadequate because that was all they could do on the day, having been instructed to provide it. +So I apologize for that. +Could I ask, Chairman, chair the number of successful prosecutions? +You've got it later on in the agenda, Arthur, can we wait for that one? +And the report for the half year will go to the council as you've heard. +Item ten, Matthew's been patient, where is he, he's there. +Food control in Oxford on page forty-five. +Can I ask you before inviting you to speak to us in two or three minutes on this, say that the recommendation, in a sense I think it has been overtaken, in that there is now under fifteen a the very distinct possibility of a transfer of a very technical post from the pollution section by the end of the year. +That's to say someone is leaving and we are going to take that post out and put it into the food section, and on b, I would say to Matthew that before committing us to a budget of two and a half thousand against a background of ten percent cuts, I would suggest that the health educational help-line and their day-long courses for E H Os might be made good use of in the forth-coming year. +But +Thank you chair. +I think first of all, I'd like to be very brief, but just to say the purpose of this short report with the appendices has not got any special status with food control, just set the record straight as to what we are capable of doing currently and what we can't do. +erm That was with the current staff resources with certain changes since the summer. +Now, it's obviously very good that a position is going to be replaced by a technician, for which a, which at the moment is elsewhere in the department. +What erm my view is that we have a current shortfall, and I think the figures highlight this, and the shortfall is in the highest of the high risk, if you like, the ultra high-risk area of catering. +erm Although one would hate to be, I don't want to be accused of being elitist and saying that E H O's must do a particular job, but what I would like to say it that we need people who are trained to a sufficient level to be able to do the ultra high risk catering area, as distinct from other high-risk areas. +It's my professional opinion that we have a problem there in terms of training and expertise, and I feel that, as you've said, the technician is forth-coming, we will be obviously having to draft very, very carefully a job description, but I feel that training requirements will be such that it will be very, very difficult to fulfil those requirements and indeed to cope with this ultra high-risk catering area. +It's my considered opinion that the only way we can do that is by an E H O, and we will find, eventually, that we will suffer continued short-fall in terms of ultra high-risk inspection. +I think it's fair to say that we've gone a long, long way in Oxford to breaking down barriers with regard to the inspection priorities, and we are in a position within the city where we have nature of, if you like, technicians and staff that are doing jobs that in many other surrounding areas, and indeed throughout the country are the prerogative of E H O, and these include areas specified as high-risk by MAFF, and include a great bulk of all customer and consumer complaints. +The only area that I'm saying is in need for careful consideration is that related to risks associated with the possibilities of food poisoning and very high-risk food handling. +I think really that is all I can say, chair, erm in addition to your comments. +Thanks very much indeed for your report, Matthew, it's certainly very informative, and in an ideal world, I think we might have made a different decision today. +Are there comments or questions immediately, Catherine? +I do have a question and, and it hasn't made, that hasn't made it particularly clear as to where we are, you hinted that, and I think that was also seconded here that there might now be a post of some kind to carry on for instance the thing that I'm particularly worried about is that there's a sort of hiatus in the heartbeat awards, which I think would be a tragedy if that happened, and I want to be absolutely sure that that is, isn't so. +Do I take it that actually the remarks that have just been made are really in favour of having a third E H O, but that in fact that that in circumstances, will not be possible. +So I really, what I'm asking, is that perhaps it could be set out exactly now what stage we have reached, and what the recommendation is as from today. +What you have before you is Matthew feeling and indeed, I would take it, supported by the chief officer. +erm There always has been the situation since Derek Roberts retired, and in fact his post was put in the pollution section, where there was only one E H O, the agreement then that there would be a swap straight E H O for technician swap, but food had traditionally, as long as I've been involved have three E H Os. +Now, I don't expect Matthew to support that for one moment, but what I'm saying to committee is that is our pragmatic solution at this moment. +I don't expect the heartbeat award scheme to suffer, I will be in touch with Matthew fairly closely to ensure that, but I think the position of the labour group is that we cannot support these recommendations as they are but we offer you a compromise solution. +Nonnie? +Yes, erm, presumably the training for a technical post in the pollution section will give kind of basic bacteriology, which will be, you know, essential for going over into the food section, erm I mean, what will become. +I think that's probably not the case, it isn't a person we're transferring over, it's a bit better than that, it's a post, which means that Matthew can advertise with a particular emphasis on food background. +He may be right, he may not be able to recruit the ideal person. +On the other hand there are some qualifications that technicians may take, we may be lucky, we may get such a person, and I hope so. +Yes, so it isn't a person. +Right. +Matthew, are there, erm Diana? +Thank you. +It's a, it's a fascinating report and having been involved in the Food Forum discussion, when we, it was reported to us that we'd actually lost a community nutritionist, I read this with great interest to see just how now the professional was seen through sections. +And, I mean, reluctantly we have to accept that this is not an ideal world, but I mean, just now, we were actually looking at the number of food hygiene inspections that have been done over the last few months, which have increased enormously, it just means, I mean it emphasises the fact that food has changed, food, and the number of places that are actually serving food now I mean, the corner shop does sandwiches. +Everybody seems to be producing food, wherever you go food is on offer, food is for sale. +I realise that many of these are not high-risk areas, but they are areas that our officers have got to, got to keep an eye on. +And numbers are increasing while our staffing has actually, actually decreased. +erm We've got to recognise the professional advice that Matthew is giving us in this report, that he, he needs professional trained staff, and it grieves me that really we can only offer a technician when he is asking for something more. +But we are giving, we are giving him a post, another body, and hopefully with a very careful job description he will get a trained person, because we also recognise the fact that Oxford's a marvellous place for people to come. +The environmental health department is seen throughout Britain as being a nice place to come. +I mean, I keep hearing that when I come into the environmental health department, that, just that people are interested in what Oxford are doing. +They keep busy, don't they. +Well set up. +Yes. +So we're one of the important environmental health departments, sure, so hopefully we will actually get somebody who is really very good, a food technician to assist in this erm field, and there have, I hope that through Food Forum we may well be able to help Matthew with his, well not just Matthew, but help, help that section with the nutrition advice that he feels is still lacking in his team under the circumstances. +Thanks very much Diana. +Can I just remind members that, I mean there's a member of the technical staff in this room now. +We have a number of technicians in the environmental health department who do some sterling work, and I know that no one here would want you to suppose that they are a kind of second-string person. +They do a different kind of work, they've traditionally done considerably responsible work within Oxford City's Environmental Health Department, so there isn't a suggestion on the part of any of us that they are somehow lesser beings, because that is not the case at all. +Can I put it to you that we cannot today accept the recommendation on page forty-eight. +But I do move today that we transfer the technical post that will become vacant in the pollution section by the end of this year to the food section, and that Matthew together with the chief environmental health officer consider how best to write a job description, and advertise for that post, and that while I do not see us securing a budget of two thousand five hundred pounds as under fifteen b, I do recommend that the health education authority are contacted, that their help-line is used, and that our E H O's use their premises in the coming new year. +I am assured that they are advertised in the Institutions Journal. +Matthew, that isn't all you want, but maybe we'll be able to discuss this again in twelve months time. +Thank you very much for the work you've put in. +Alright. +Thank you chair. +Thanks. +I note that we have Terry Randal here. +Maybe we should take item seventeen and allow him, is ten minutes going to be enough? +erm I'll try and do this in ten minutes. +You'll try and do this in ten minutes. +Let's straight into seventeen then, I'll just remind committee that we need to move to the confidential section at five o'clock today in order to get it finished. +Item seventeen is the age-well project, the report is circulated on page a hundred and eight. +We're particularly delighted actually that Tony Randall has come along to share his own very particular views on this project. +You'll remember that we had a pilot project in South Oxford Health Centre, Tony is one of the G P's there, I'm expecting that he's going to be very positive about this project since we all are, in terms of it's practice service delivery. +Well, then Tony, tell us about how it feels at your end. +Okay, I'll give you a very brief background to the project. +It started in the Autumn of eighty-eight, when Phil approached me and said, ‘Look, we would like to consider putting our services that we do offer to finance in a more effective way’, running alongside that was a project being run by Oxfordshire Health Authority where they were sending postal surveys to elderly people; people over the age of seventy erm sixty-five at one point, and were getting back a huge amount of information on their perceived needs. +We thought perhaps we can use that as a goal standard, and pick up what actually happens with our project to compare the two. +So that's where we were in the autumn of eighty-eight. +By spring of eighty-nine, when the project had started, we'd gone quite a long way down the road, we'd decided that we wanted to be looking at what was feasible in general practice. +Get this machine working over here. +What was feasible general practice, and whether that was the best place to be contacting the local people. +Now, the reason we particularly were interested in this was that from the questionnaire we already were beginning to get back some information, and we discovered that eighty-six percent of people had seen their G P in the previous year, and maybe if we could introduce them to the age-well project at some point during that contact, we would be able to achieve something. +Against that there'll be seventeen percent of this population was seeing home-helps, five percent was seeing social workers. +So we though that we would try it in general practice. +Next thing to do was to set up a form. +Looks horrendous, but bear in mind these elderly people have just answered a sixteen page postal questionnaire with no help. +And what's more eighty-six percent of them answered it. +And I was quite impressed by that. +We gave them a sheet of paper which said what we were, what we're doing, and said please, if you want any help in any of those areas, just tick the box, and if you don't want any help, tick this little box, and that's what they had to fill in. +And they were given this when they were brought into the surgery by the receptionist. +We discovered very rapidly that if it was the doctor that had to present the age-well project to the patients that quite often they forgot to do it. +In greater detail I could look at what kind of coverage we've got, but I think in ten minutes I don't have time to do that. +Suffice it to say that amongst the people who were not contacted by this project within the first year are some of those seeing doctors on eight occasions. +The receptionists are much at giving out these things than doctors. +They can do it while they're waiting, couldn't they. +On the back of the form, we simply have a method of writing down anything that's interested, and also includes a sticker of who the person is, a particular one. +So I thought we could look at results now, which are probably the thing that's most interesting. +Just taking that form with those boxes, that's how people responded. +This thing breaks it down by age, as I say, we're looking at seventy-fives and over. +More than half the people don't want any help at all. +Well, I think that's, we can accept the point easily. +erm Quite a lot of help required in areas of the remit of this committee I would guess, things like home, security and safety, heating down here, quite a lot of people want help with heating. + +No, no, I agree. +Are you laughing +Why don't you +at my feet? +Mm. +I think you should wear those at appointments. +No, my clients get a big enough giggle as it is. +I don't think +by your slippers. +Do you have anything to do with the Hampton Court area Steven er, work-wise? +Well, have I been there? +No, erm there's an office there isn't there? +Or have we got an office in Hampton Court? +No, I don't think we have. +Oh. +I thought we were you know, working up there. +Well, no, it's not General Portfolio. +Actually, just started working for General Portfolio. +It is in Kingston. +Might be. +There's not one in Kingston. +Sharon . +I dunno. +Where d'ya meet her then? +I met her from, she used to work at Kirshaws. +Oh . +Probably applied the same time I did. +Oh. +She smokes like a chimney. +Mm. +Have you ever seen anybody completely obscured by her own smoke, it's Sharon. +. +Chuck us the water would you? +She's a bit of a goer as well int she? +Is she? +Isn't she? +Yeah but +Didn't she order a punch so she was drunk ? +No, that was Tracey. +I thought Tracey and Sharon used to get drunk at lunchtime on a Friday and have a punch up. +No. +Only Tracey would do that. +Our Trace. +Ah. +Oh dear. +Oh. +It's supposed to be a bit it'll stick up don't worry. +No, it's ours. +Don't poke it Martin, or else +it'll . +There's nothing worse than somebody poking your pudding is there? +No . +It smells absolutely foul. +Don't come and poke yours, do we? +You do. +She does. +Don't. +We never, we never cook anything +cos we ain't got a table. +Well we have but it int got any legs on. +No, she must be working out of the Kingston office cos we don't +I would have thought so. +we don't have one at Hampton Court. +No. +Or Hampton. +Su sugar. +Oh. +There you go. +So how are you Susan? +I'm not very well. +Aren't you? +You got this cold thing everybody +She's fluey. +else has got? +She's fluey. +Yeah. +Mm. +This one mine? +One of these days, I live in hope for a bug going round that everybody else has, but not me. +I've always got the one, I'm always the one saying to you fiddle, everyone seems to have that +Yeah. +including me. +Tt. +I've got a sore throat and a bit of a cough. +And I do feel genuinely rough. +And you ache, don't you? +I ache from here to the top. +I think it sounds like flu. +I had a thumping headache yesterday. +But that seems to have gone now. +Mm. +I've put +Stiff neck as well? +Yeah. +Ooh yeah. +Oh here's some Marmite crisps if you want any? +No? +Okay. +Be like that. +Well erm I was +absolutely freezing cold. +These always hit me. +It sounds awfully familiar I'm afraid. +Mm. +So I had a bath and I thought it'd warm me up but I was, I was freezing weren't I? +Yeah. +And I had to get the old erm quilt down. +Mm mm. +I don't believe I'm bad +all week. +Not usually this bad with a cold. +I mean, I've been off college and stuff just feeling really tired +Yeah. +all the time. +It's the . +Alright. +I mean, normally I just keep going, you know, and sort of don't, but I've been so aching so much that it's terrible! +Yes. +Is that my cup? +Yes. +I think. +Yeah. +I wonder if we could get away with telling my mum that we'll go away for Christmas and New Year. +Why, you going away? +Well she's going away anyway. +Oh yes you +Is she? +you're going to the Lake District aren't you? +Yep. +Yeah. +We've got it booked. +Have you? +Yup. +Aha. +Oh jolly good! +We have. +We'll be taking +I hate to tell you this but the er the forecast for the weather is pretty awful this year. +Snow? +Lots of it. +I think we're gonna have a +hard winter this year. +Hello! +Hello. +Hello . +Alright? +D'ya win or lose? +Hi! +Ah! +Where's Jasmine? +Hello. +Hello my plant. +Hello. +She's gone upstairs. +Tell her I said hello. +They seem to be downstairs. +She hi +She seems to be . +Hello sweetheart! +Hello! +Whoop woo woo! +Mayhem! +Yes I thought we were gonna get snowed in up there. +Hello! +Well I ra when are you going up then? +Twenty seventh. +The day after Boxing Day. +You woo woo! +Yeah. +Woo! +Woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo, woo! +Woo, woo, woo! +The fact that you don't mind talking about it. +Yes. +Yes there's always the +Maybe +perhaps the Monday after Christmas, and then coming back the Monday after. +And I'll ask +Maybe you could connect the tape to the television and then have a film on and just leave it running. +So the ac that's the actual script. +I think it'll be fairly obvious somehow. +What's that? +Did you win or lose? +Not a lot. +Lost. +You lost? +Where was it today? +Mm dear. +Ah no, racing, ah, it's cos I bought a horse, that's why +Oh! +erm you might have lost a lot. +No I I, er +Have you been racing today? +No I backed the first winner today and that got me out of trouble. +Er, don't give her those. +Why? +Give her a brick . +No, she actually just, I haven't seen for a long time so she can have one of these. +No, but that's excessively for her. +It's not cos she only gets a little bit. +Where's Jussy? +Dunno. +Jussy! +Jussy man ! +I'll put them away in the fridge for you. +Jussy man. +How are your horses nowadays? +They're fine thanks. +Yeah, very well. +You been down to see them recently? +No, cos I've been away for a couple of days. +Mm mm. +She has been down in Dorset . +I always go back +What do you mean he gets his ? +does that one, that I'm not quite so much of the . +Yeah, but er . +Oh he's got plenty of them. +Yeah. +Feeling like +the end of the world. +Death warmed up. +Mm. +How's ? +Not bad. +But it's bloody cold out there isn't it? +I know, it's a bit nip. +Cor! +Bit of a frosty one. +Bit of a, bit of a sad day though isn't it? +Lovely, sunny +Oh yeah. +Same again tomorrow, so they say. +I like starting off the day with a ten mile run followed by +I like this one. +hot chocolate two rounds of toast +And that one at erm +and a piece of er, ginger cake. +stopped at the tea rooms after completely over the top ordering. +All the all this food started turning off . +Completely, the chocolate, hot chocolate with bloody whipped cream on the top and everything. +God! +I wish I'd cycled six miles home! +So you worked it all off again. +I don't think so. +Not in, not in sixteen miles. +I should think you probably just about got through the toast possibly. +I've torn off my bit. +I tipped . +Yes. +Did you er make that? +Or did you +Yeah, I don't do, I don't do . +Want to go upstairs and sit down? +Oh. +I will. +The food's not far off is it? +Well we'll go upstairs and eat. +Shall we go upsta are we gonna eat upstairs? +Yeah. +Can do. +Whenever. +Whatever. +Whenever, whatever we feel like really. +done? +We're not far off now. +What's this in there? +In the oven Steven? +That is the . +That's the starter. +Chicken. +Frederick! +Yes? +This dog's standing here again? +Is he? +Yeah. +Yes. +. +Yes, but I must admit I'll sort him out. +I'll see what we're gonna do when the dinner comes. +Very thinly sliced. +Oh! +We haven't done the mush Kitty! +Very thin, and very thinly sliced. +You haven't done the mushrooms ! +Oh! +Strewth! +Quick! +There you go. +Sa say it. +We always put mushrooms in it. +And erm extremely thinly sliced. +Yeah. +We always put these, just forgotten to do them. +Oh. +You'll have to do them +Cut them thin otherwise they won't cook in time. +Oh won't they? +Yeah. +What? +Oh you're +Three and half millimetres. +You're +though Martin. +Sorry? +Grab a knife then Martin? +I gotta wash them first. +Okay, we need to wash them but it doesn't matter too much does it? +I've got to +No. +scrub them haven't I? +Well it is, I wrote it down when we were on the list +Wash her hair. +and Steve put it on top of here. +Shampoo and rinse. +Look Martin, those mushrooms . +What, that list I gave you earlier on? +Yes. +I don't think you could argue with that. +The mushrooms . +Right then take +Like if you're gonna be happy in this household +Test the finger you are they just oh God, they're much bigger than we had already. +So how many are you doing? +Well it's the thought that counts. +Oh! +Well that's enough. +Mm mm. +That's quite a little gadget isn't it? +Where d'ya put +Excuse me! +Saves gunging the old erm +Sweet, no less. +One very small knife for slicing the mushrooms. +Deep emancipation. +I'm busy. +Well he's gonna pay me back tomorrow. +Oh. +Actually they're quite clean these mushrooms. +How's the business been recently? +Erm, not too bad. +I don't know how that one got in there. +Yeah, not too bad. +Could be better? +Could be worse? +Well, it can always be better can't it? +It is +Thing was I knew he'd forgotten something. +I was just looking for something. +You see, I could tell these things. +Well Martin, Joe, er er Martin just said erm what would look nicer in there are some erm some mushrooms, and I looked and I thought, well we always do mushrooms in +You stupid boy! +there. +There should be mushrooms in there. +And lo and behold there isn't. +Come on, chop chop! +Did you put in those thingies? +Yes. +Nice hat! +Keeps you warm, yeah? +That's the only thing. +Perhaps I could do with another one. +How are you Thierry darling? +I'm alright thanks. +You? +Okay. +I heard you were in the er +the bath weren't you? +I was. +Yes. +Well and truly in the bath. +In the triathlon? +Yes. +Second out the water or something? +Yes. +First, first . +Where did you finish? +Not second. +No. +No, I was about twenty sixth from the end actually, but +How many? +Twenty sixth. +Wasn't bad, and I finished. +That's good. +That's pretty good +Which is alright +twenty sixth. +considering it was fairly considering it's pretty er +Cos only about ten men finished in front of you or something? +Yes. +Oh no, there were more than that. +I was twenty sixth in the women's, not overall. +Still, that's good. +Oh right. +So I had to put up with the, I had a really shitty cycle and then, my run was, you know okay +Well you probably +for me, but +you probably tried hardest in your swim didn't you? +Well I don't think I did really, I just wasn't very sharp really. +I, well I know you have days where you just you feel alright +Had you +but then +prepared alright? +you just go across, not really. +Cos then, the Worlds +Right. +were only a month before so I sort of war wound down a bit, so +Yeah. +I mean, I wasn't really feeling, you know when some, sometimes you know you're gonna do really well and sometimes you think, mm mm +Er er yeah. +not really terribly prepared for +Pass today. +this one. +And you feel alright but people just go shh ooh ooh past you. +That's +Yeah. +life really. +Just gotta do what you can really haven't you? +Absolutely. +Yeah. +I'm just gonna put an extra layer on. +I'm not +That's okay. +gonna +Say, that's alright. +I was just I wouldn't be bothered anyway. +No you probably wouldn't actually . +You know me. +Oh God ! +What? +In fact, Jon 's +Yeah. +here. +I haven't seen him for ages. +Well I haven't either. +Whose lager's that? +I mean whose thingie? +It's mine, I was just gonna give it to you. +Is it? +Well in that, actually I'll come and sit on it and then I can fondle Jon's knees while I'm there. +I'm not speaking to you, not with that on. +You don't have to say anything. +Who's got the best knee then? +What? +Oh well erm different quality of knees really. +You're joking! +Mine's all bone. +That's what I mean, you know, depends +Bony knees. +depends what turns you on really. +You never know I might be +Are you sure because erm when we were away er James took some photographs +Yeah. +and I saw just how bony my legs were. +Were in shorts. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Ooh! +Vegetables! +Ah that's alright. +I got terri I mean, honestly er I mean people are so +Well that's a point, speaking of photos can I have the ones you took at ? +The ones of me. +Please. +I mean, I realize you've probably got them pinned up by your bed, but +Ah, I've made them up into poster size. +Yeah. +Get three D ones made up. +Are you, are you coming to that dinner? +No I'm not. +You're not? +No. +Yeah I know. +Martin won't let me come cos he says it's too expensive. +So, when is it anyway? +Oh probably the er er it's worse than I do sometimes. +No, November the twenty something. +Oh great! +That's very helpful. +Yeah, I dunno why, I sort of oh yes well, I assumed we were going and then he said it was too expensive. +And then, he sort of thought well funny sell my body. +I don't know. +I dunno. +It's something like twenty quid each. +That could take me ages to earn. +What d'ya do? +Depending who I'm selling my body to. +I'm a student so I haven't got any money. +But, judging by how crap the Christmas dinner was I'm not really particularly tempted, but +Tell him you want to go. +That's what we'll do anyway. +Will you dance with me if I come? +What? +Yes. +That means I will. +Yes. +Okay. +As long as it's slow. +Oh, alright then. +Sounds good to me. +You're warned though +That's worth +I've got two left feet. +that's worth twenty quid. +That's alright, if you tread on my feet I'll just pick you up and carry you then. +Yeah, that's true. +And put you over my +put you over my shoulder . +You probably could. +A fireman's lift then. +Oh dear. +And we can disappear outside and everyone'll be talking. +Oh yeah! +Absolutely. +You'll have to deal with Martin though. +Can you run faster than him? +Erm +no, I can't even run for a bus. +Actually probably wouldn't, probably wouldn't be very bothered actually. +I'll just have my bike outside and quickly get on. +I should. +Yeah. +Oh dear. +That erm Mark rang up +Oh +rang us up yesterday. +Hello it's Mark from the Tri-Club. +I thought Mark from the Tri-Club, Mark, who the hell is Mark? +Who from the Tri-Club? +Well I didn't even, well he didn't even occur to me actually I must admit. +Excuse me a minute. +But er going to the loo are we? +Alright then. +Can you bring me a cup of tea back? +One sugar please. +Erm yeah, so I had this +I had thi yeah I had this long conversation not knowing who the hell he so I said well are you going, I was thinking Kingfisher, so I thought well, I said are you going training tomorrow night? +He said training? +What training? +I said well, you know, and I thought it could be somebody here as well. +Let's face it, I made a complete prat of myself. +And then Martin, I sa I still couldn't think who it was. +Martin came home and said oh is that Mark fro Mark from Woking? +I thought,ah, ha ! +The wrong bloody number. +Oops! +Yeah. +But honestly, how stupid! +It could, could it not be anybody? +Well I know. +God! +Could have been a if I didn't know any attractive Marks Tri-Club +Oh, so you di +so I thought it's a fairly safe bet. +I mean if it ha if somebody had said it was Danny from the Tri-Club I would have had a +I would have been in there, you know. +Oh. +Just on the off chance. +Just on the off chance it was that Danny. +Ha! +I mean, how stupid to ring and say it's Mark. +Yes. +I mean, that's like ringing up and saying it's Jon really isn't it? +But I do ring. +You do ri well we know you well enough to know your voice though. +It's the bear. +Yeah. +Absolutely. +Who's that girl? +Yeah, that's Sarah . +She's not as sexy as me is she? +It's what you call +in fact I'm not even sure it was female then . +Not that I'm insecure or anything. +It's alright, you can try and . +Oh dear. +How's Nat? +Fine. +Oh oh! +Gone to the cinema tonight or summat. +Eh? +Gone to the cinema +Oh oh. +with the girls from work. +Oh that's nice. +Where, what have they gone to see, d'ya know? +Ah she did say. +Oh oh! +I take so much interest in her. +Yes dear. +That's nice. +See you later. +Bye! +Oh God ! +Where's Thierry with my bloody cup of tea? +Well do you want any while I was in there? +Just bringing his now. +I was thinking of going up for something myself, but I really can't be bothered to move actually. +Fifty miles for you? +Yeah, that's what we normally do. +Is it? +What's Thierry supposed to do, about fifty six? +Seventy five +Seventy five? +is the total . +Oh, including your twenty +Including, yeah. +Something's definitely burning. +Is it twenty five to ten when you go past the door . +You lazy bugger! +I said I can't be bothered to get up. +That's alright, I'll let you drive me all the way round once so, he owes me a quid you see. +Oh. +I see pay day's started. +Yeah. +Who's left their hat on the fire top ? +I told you something's, I told you something was burning. +After that last place in there . +Can you smell it? +Yes. +Oh! +,,Thank you very much Thierry. +You're a star. +I had erm you had to get up, out of bed of Sundays? +Oh! +Bloody hell! +Men! +Eh! +Yeah. +I was, I was quietly groaning away thinking oh God it's quarter to eight thank God I haven't gotta get up. +Ten minutes later, wurgh, can you +Tap on the door. +can you push the van please? +Pushing an old van, I mean I ask you! +Yeah. +Yeah. +Stuck at the bottom of the hill . +A ho how he thought I was going to move it I don't know. +And then, and then +First he, first he scratched it. +Yeah. +And then, ten minutes later, I got a puncture, can you drive me out there? +Tt! +Cor dear! +Some people, eh? +What car have you got? +Peugeot. +Peugeot two O five. +Peggy the Peugeot. +Pretty nice. +Mm mm. +Oh God! +I've been so thirsty for the last hour, I couldn't be bothered to go and find a drink. +I've never ever been at college after six o'clock, it was very exciting. +How old's he? +Six? +Twelve? +How old is he? +A bit young. +I thought you said he was fourteen. +A bit young for me. +Even for me, eh? +Mm. +Even for a little baby like you. +I know. +The youngest, the youngest below me I've ever gone for is three years younger. +Well that was that was fairly excessive. +And that was when you were six. +God he was sexy! +No, it was when about +about seventeen and he was fourteen. +God he was fabulous! +The best kisser I've ever met. +What do you mean? +You're a nympho on the quiet aren't you really? +You are aren't you ? +On the quiet whore. +Whoever types this up is gonna have fun aren't they? +Mm? +Whoever types this up's gonna have fun. +I sure might like to . +Let's go and see +Oh good! +How is the old studies going? +Oh okay. +Boring really. +Actually erm I'm not really into it at the moment because I can't sort of make myself get in there, you know? +Miles away. +Mm. +I'm just too used to being lazy really. +I can't cope. +Yeah I, I know how you feel mine's mine's . +Do you have write-ups and lots of work ? +Oh oh! +They're not like that all the time. +It's just been a bit of a surge once a month. +Just once a month? +Yeah. +Just for a week every month and go a bit over the top. +Once a month . +Hero! +What time's this matey turning up? +What matey? +Your ? +Or have you got it already? +No, we gotta go down to Kingfisher and get it. +We're gonna be late home. +We're gonna be late home. +Mm mm. +Did she tell you what her luxury was while you were away? +Sitting up painting her nails at midnight, in bed. +She said it was just wonderful not having anybody shouting at her to turn the light off. +Mm mm. +Oh dear. +I said my luxury when Martin was out was eating half a very large cream cake. +And ho drinking half a bottle of wine. +We didn't quite decide which was more the . +Kitty, what are you doing Sunday? +Are you gonna go into London? +What do you want me to do then? +Good question. +What? +Are you with Martin? +Eleven o'clock. +Probably. +If it involved marshalling, definitely. +Well you can stand up. +Are you waiting? +Yeah. +Well you +I've gotta stand up just now. +you're gonna stand on my foot in a minute then I'm gonna kick you in the bollocks with the other foot! +Ooh! +Ooh ooh ooh ! +Oh that's good . +It was a thingie reaction +Yeah. +isn't it? +Reflex. +Yeah . +If I sit here, if I sit very still he'll forget about me. +He'll come this way in a minute. +Have you ever had that done it's so bizarre, I tell you. +What, being kicked in the bollocks or no reflexes? +Yes. +been kicked in, in the bollocks. +You get it done when you go to the doctors don't you? +Yeah. +It's bizarre cos it's like you haven't got control. +You feel like a puppet . +Oh blimey! +Do you think I might just find anybody here who'd like a really good snog? +Not with that cold, no. +Well it's not infectious any more. +Well I would love to. +I think Martin might get a bit upset. +Well he doesn't wanna bloody snog! +He's off kissing. +He doesn't like kissing, he noticed that after two years. +I don't really like kissing very much. +Oh for God's sake! +Now you tell me! +Sex is so much better. +Ah? +Eh? +Swallow, swallow. +No it's not! +It is. +Not if you try hard. +Vastly overrated I'm afraid. +Yeah? +Mm? +It's vastly overrated. +And it's hard just to get all the way up. +Yeah. +Oh yeah? +What are we +Yeah, the . +Come on then. +He's not looking. +It was the only time I've worn four layers on the top in a race. +Yeah. +And it was the full kit, you know. +It was +Oh yeah. +er it was +Mind you, that's what they all say though. +Yeah? +Are you cold? +Are you wanting me to warm you up ? +Want my jumper? +Mm? +Do you want my jumper? +Haven't you got your ? +Tt! +Oh! +I'm really cold. +Still I'll survive. +I know. +I'll warm you up. +There's still something there yo there's still something there you can't be that cold. +Go on. +Do your natural duties. +Gosh! +Ha! +The end of the Worlds, you know how cold it was there, and we were all going down the finish tunnel you just, all of the blokes you just thought +There's only three of the blokes . +there's nothing there! +It's gone! +It's gone! +Well +There's only fifteen altogether . +Not that, not that I look at that sort of thing on a regular basis so +They go +Well when they're just standing there in a vest and shorts then there isn't much else to look at is there, really? +Yeah. +Then yo +It was Saturday or Sunday? +What? +Are you +Twenty fourth. +Twenty fourth, is it? +Well that's why Doug's going round asking about Sunday is it? +If you are going it's best to +Where is it? +Women in, she's gonna win women's categories. +Where is it and what is it? +Isn't there one in November or something? +You're shivering! +Is that just cos you've got your leg like that or is the other one shaking? +Sorry, that one's shaking cos you've got it tucked up, cos I'm touching you isn't it? +Yeah. +A bit +Eh? +excited. +You like coming along here don't you? +I do. +What's this? +I like touching Jon's leg. +Yes. +Are you recording? +Don't! +Get off! +She's taping it all. +Yeah, I'm doing a local project. +But so far we've had erm, we've had who likes kissing and who doesn't. +Sex is better with Jon cos he does it better. +And I'm a nymphomaniac. +It sounded quite good to me. +All good clean stuff. +I know. +I've gotta hand it in on Friday so I'm getting a bit desperate. +Better not mention I shave my legs on +Oh no! +on Monday. +Yesterday . +Yes, the kinkier the better really, you know. +I'd like to know where you're supposed to stop. +What d'ya mean? +Which particular section of the conversation are we talking about? +Dunno. +Where you're supposed to stop +Jon +shaving your legs up to. +Oh right. +Jon obviously doesn't know where to stop. +It's painful. +If he's that good. +You should u use Immac it's less painful. +Sorry? +Use Immac it's less painful. +Immac? +For your legs. +Immac? +Evil smelling pink stuff that you put all over your legs and +Wax? +leave it. +No, no, no. +And then you leave it +Nitromorse for legs. +then you leave it for erm +five minutes and then all your hairs drop out and then you, then you just wipe them off. +It's great. +I'd be a +It's quite a good chat up line. +Get a girl to do it for you. +Yeah. +I, I've often had that fantasy actually. +I think most girls have a fantasy about waxing some blokes legs. +. +Oh! +Ooh er! +Baby! +Martin has his waxed. +He was very brave. +No one would wax mine. +Really? +Not many places will wax men's legs. +I dunno why, but in a way +Yeah, Gill can do it. +The sports centre'll do it. +It's yours. +You're making me feel really guilty. +Stop it! +I'll be afraid that they can see my tummy. +No! +You can't, you can't see, you can't you could cover your legs with it though +A bit. +couldn't you? +Yes, well keep your pants on, that's all I can say. +What are you doing? +What did you say you were doing Sunday? +I thought you might have forgotten about me Doug. +No. +I don't know. +What am I doing? +Has Martin said what I'm doing already? +And where is it? +No, well Martin looked through the diary. +Where is it? +It's at Potter Street. +You're going as well are you? +What's that? +This thing on Sunday? +Wahey! +No I'm gonna watch my wife on the hillside . +Oh I see. +I thought she was +Yeah. +going too. +Can you not er bring her along afterwards? +She'll be really chuffed . +Erm, I don't know what I'm doing actually. +That's very helpful of me isn't it? +I shall ask Martin +How's it going Doug? +when it gets a bit nearer. +Pardon? +How's it going? +Well, it's not very good actually. +But I still have to put some of the blinds out again. +What happened to the one I did last year? +The last time I did you put me on blind bends. +Did I? +And then said afterwards, I put you there cos they stop for women and not men. +So I +Hey? +had to throw myself in front of a speeding car! +Stop! +Ha aargh aargh! +The legs . +You trod on my bloody foot! +At least I wasn't wearing a stilettos. +True. +That's the one where I marshalled with you last year actually wasn't it? +Yeah that's right. +That's right. +And you came, you came and tied his dog to the back of my car. +Yeah. +They're gonna +And the +run away with it ! +and then wrote himself a note to remind himself to untie the blooming thing. +Oh yes . +Dear Doug +Don't forget to untie the dog. +And you can just imagine him rid +You can. +driving away with it +Absolutely. +Woof! +Nicely then followed the car. +Yeah, true. +It's easy. +I don't . +But then you start to overtake him seventy miles an hour or so. +Dog's yapping. +Yeah. +Well I reckon that erm Andy ought to sort mine out. +And he's rowing with that blonde chick. +And you're so jealous? +I am. + +Like, who was it who reckoned there was a corner on a boat? +Well you reckoned there weren't a corner on a boat. +There ain't. +There is ! +Oh shut up! +Ach, you do get corners on boats! +No. +Boats are shaped like a bloody rugby ball shape type +No they ain't. +One end is and the other one ain't, and it was a yacht and a yacht, they got little rooms in or something cos innit? +Oh that,th the rooms are shaped ni , like to the size of the boat, you nonce!! +Let's ask your Mum if there's, if there's any corners on a boat. +Of course there ain't. +Just ask your Mum that. +Yeah. +I bet she'll probably side with you. +But, I, I know for a fact there ain't. +You don't know. +Fucking hell! +Bollocks pal! +how many, many corners in a boat? +They're shaped like rugby balls! +Shaped like rugby balls. +Don't start! +They ain't shaped like rugby balls. +Goes round like this and then it goes square at the back. +They're not square at the back! +Do you er, have you got any whatsername there? +What? +Brochures. +Brochures? +No I haven't. +Then you see a boat and . +Oh bollocks brother! +There, there are, ships. +Oh ships, Kev, but I'm talking about boats. +Well a boat is, a ship is a boat you prat! +No it ain't, a ship's a big fucker! +And a boat's a little fucker! +Yeah. +That ain't shaped like a rugby ball. +That ain't, that ain't, that ain't +Kev +They do +that ain't, that ain't, that ain't +They're all, they're ships Kev. +that ain't. +Kev, they are ships. +They're ships. +That's a fucking weird ship ! +I wouldn't sail in it. +Don't you think it's a fucking ? +Yeah, you don't, you don't sail in ships anyway. +That is not shaped like a rugby ball. +Er, and you don't get seagulls swim er, swimming in the sea. +Yes you do. +Yes you do, you dill! +Why do you think they're called seagulls Kev ? +Der er! +You don't get seagulls +Seagulls do swim Kev. +They don't swim. +They do swim. +They they jump into, they dive into the water. +Yeah, they fly. +And they do swim cos they've got the feet for it. +They don't +Yeah right. +they don't fly in the water Pete. +They do. +flying in the water. +No. +Al , alright Kev. +Yeah. +Flying in the water. +Alright Mum? +Water seagulls fly in apparently because erm . +Yeah. +They go in the ship you dick ! +Dick arse. +They . +Well why is there +Oh, a load of +alright +bollocks. +alright, so they draw fish on the side of the fucking ships! +If you say draw it wrong, who cares? +If there weren't then just go home. +Go home . +Do you think so? +Erm, now I am home so sod off! +Go to bed then! +I don't wanna go to bed . +Ask Silko. +Yeah. +He's only a fucking newsreader. +That's Trevor MacDonald . +Excuse me. +This ain't . +A bunny. +He's black though. +I know. +No, d'ya know what he says after his news speech? +Yeah. +Let's get a coffee +D'ya +now. +Nah. +Do you wanna erm +Go for a quick one before it closes. +Yeah. +Before it closes. +How do you know? +They said it. +They faxed it, I T N faxed it just to the Big Breakfast. +They said it. +Did you never know about your mind . +You are. +What you doing? +What are you doing now? +Well you said I could keep it. +. +Stop messing around. +Shut up Bamber! +Shut up Kevin. +No I won't shut up! +Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ! +What you doing? +Oh you're not doing that silly thing? +Told me to turn it down. +Oh what about +Looks like Arthur's scoring in one and I think his brother scored another. +And hi , his brother could score again. +And he does. +Turn it up a little bit more. +Seagulls don't swim. +It's like saying puffins don't swim. +It's like thinking fish don't swim. +a superb effort! +He does a little dummy +. +Flies in the water. +Penguins don't. +They do fly in the water. +It does fly in the water. +It ain't got a to fly in the water. +It has. +It ain't got them under the water. +It's just got a picture of water, and they're next to it. +So why is the water right behind them then? +If there was really be water on top of them. +, no shut up! +Shut up! +Biggest fucking thing. +Let's have a look at it Kev. +Alright. +Da, da da da da da da da da ah ah ah ah ! +Oh! +What's this little fella. +Gonna be scared now. +Ah! +A C Milan! +He's the Turkish Champion . +What happens if they went one nil up? +They, they drew it. +Take a, take a shot now. +! +On penalties. +Penalties! +This is in Turkey. +I reckon if me and you , get the team playing each other get both, get two away goals, whatever, take it into extra time right, we both get a goal each and go, imagine going to penalties or something. +It's a Argentina match or something. +Get one put in together. +No le , make it, don't make him score in extra time just +Yeah, make, also make +leave it. +one put them in together. +Yeah, shall we try that? +Yeah. +Don't you wanna know your child . +So here he comes, looks as if we're . +I just thought of something, what happens +I don't re , I don't think so. +Cos when you're . +Oh that's my microphone. +Who was it who first said that they'd witnessed something? +Yeah. +What? +Well you not, you liked the but erm +No I never. +You did. +No I never. +It was you or Peter. +Who was this? +No it wasn't. +It weren't me. +It was either you or Peter. +It weren't me. +You then. +No it weren't me. +It weren't me, I never played . +Do , don't get , don't get me into this. +Oh! +I dunno where he is. +It weren't me. +Can you place a shot? +Turn that up! +Yes. +Please! +Probably go back stop. +I can score your point now. +No, no, that's that thing called . +Bull boy back stop. +You're playing this. +Bollocks! +You're a blue oyster in disguise. +You're a blue boy +It's meant to be a tenner. +Oh. +Nine two on aggregate. +Ah! +What a tenner between ya? +No, tenner for each. +Yeah. +It's the spirit! +No, if you only you had a fart coming. +He just went or it sounds like. +Pa. +It sounded, a little breather. +Pa. +Okay, you was all quiet until you went +No, Kev, no. +I didn't go raargh aargh! +Well I don't think I did so +Yes you did. +No I never. +Yes you did. +No I never. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +You did. +No. +Look, you've been repeating yourself again. +Yeah, so are you. +No I ain't. +Yeah. +I di , I ain't repeating yourself. +Did, you did. +You did! +I ain't repeating yourself. +So I done alright. +Ha ha! +So funny! +What's he got playing like this. +Rumbled it. +Seven eight +You've done it again . +Do him you wanker! +Joe or something. +I know. +Half way down. +Sam's brother. +Sam's there. +If Sam came up to you and you ge your Mil , you had Millwall and Sam right, rips it off right, ripped it to pieces and that, started burning it, and he give you a Wimbledon shirt in return what would you do? +Probably do the same to his. +Mm. +What, then you'd give him a Millwall shirt? +I'd give it back. +I got a and my Dad was going +I'd kill him! +Your Dad'd kill him and all. +I know. +I wouldn't. +Poor old Bobby. +He's always had to find a new friend, he don't trust me. +a good friend, ah! +Pass! +I wanna be your friend. +He for a lunch. +Far from a friend. +I wanna get you expelled. +Bollocks! +Paul . +Joss ran into the wind. +Oh shot! +Ha! +Oh a excellent boot, enough far . +Someone should tell Joey. +, but someone's already told him. +Oh sorry, I'm on the . +Whoever listens to this your Mum's like fish and chips, a come slap-up. +Good goal. +I reckon those kids are getting Hooray!. +Oh it's on there. +. +Oh it's too smelly at Millwall. +Hey. +I says at , Arsenal !, it's not against fanny and Chelsea . +Who's this fanny and Chelsea ? +Oh yeah, cos I know it's wonderful . + +cos I got the earphones. +Oh no that's a point it won't just, I can't +Well +hear what they say. +Cos sometimes these +Walkmans have a built-in speaker something like that. +Yes. +But I thin, this one hasn't so +I can put it all down . +Are you following it? +Did you hear it on the radio this morning about the research that the , these people are doing? +No. +They were talking about language on Radio Four and erm what people e , it isn't anything to do with the training course we're on, it's the language. +It's nothing to do with T N T or anything er at all, it's just er they that organization has wro written to a number of large companies and asked them to er record er, so many, er tapes so they can analyse it. +But really they're looking at the the er sounds you're making and the language you're using rather what, they're not interested in what we're saying. +what people? +What age? +on me. +What is it for? +And I won't ask you what situation +you were in when you found that out. +Right. +Let's have a look at what yo , who's gonna represent us on the old er features and benefits this morning? +Phil. +It's gonna be Phil. +Oh right Phil. +Elected. +Good old Phil. +Okay. +What did we +have? +Good of you to volunteer Phil? +Sorry? +Good of you to volunteer. +It was, weren't it? +Do you want me to, to write it up for you +Yeah +somewhere? +Yeah? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Can you talk us through +Well this is +them? +what I've done, I done about seventeen of them. +Right. +Well we done about seventeen of them but mainly on the super mail side but we stick to the one sort of with +Yeah. +Erm on the first one it's the before nine service er basically +Yeah. +a benefit for the customer that it is a guarantee before nine. +Erm it is obviously beneficial particularly for banks and financial institutions to use +In what way? +Well they start work quite early and they can get cheques processed erm situations like that. +Yeah. +So what +And then +what, what's the benefit then? +Just, what is the benefit. +It's there at the start of a new day. +See +It's there somehow. +that's the benefit? +Describing the feature is only describing the feature. +Mhm. +Before means, nine, means your getting it there before nine you said and er, that means it's there nice and early. +That's describing a feature . +Mm. +The benefit of getting it there early and a little leap word which takes you from a feature to a benefit +Which means +Well done. +Which means that so you have to make +Ah ah . +it into sentences by a little leap word +Actually I've got it on here but I just don't like saying it all the time. +I've got a +Ah ah! +I've got it on top of bank though. +Okay. +Right. +Before nine +You just wrote that though. +Eh? +You just wrote that. +Yeah. +Which means you, that you can start what was your words Jenny? +So you can start the working day. +means that it's ready for the start of the working day giving you a +Eh? +that's the real benefit. +Alright. +There at the start of the working day, giving you, you've gotta say that next step and tell them, okay, if you can say so what, you haven't told them the benefit. +Okay? +So what? +Let's see how many so whats you can come up with after this. +Okay. +Go on. +So what's the next one? +Again, before ten thirty it is a guaranteed service before ten thirty which is a benefit. +No. +Before ten thirty guaranteed is a feature. +It is built in by design. +We build that in. +If you build it in by design, like we build this in +and the design of that was so that it will stay on, built in by design. +And should stay on. +Which means that what did we say yesterday? +Right. +And therefore helps with your presentation simply. +That's the benefit. +Right. +So, the fact that it's guaranteed that, we've actually built that in by design which makes it a feature. +Mm mm. +What he, what the customer gets out of that is what? +So +Well, on, on the ten, ten thirty one +Yeah. +I've put it very similar to that of the nine o'clock one really. +Which it , it is. +It's still +Yeah I've I +the elements of time really, yeah? +That's it. +It's just cos I , I couldn't do a lot more about that one. +What other things , what other things other than giving them actually +Cheaper. +They're paying less +Well it's , it's an option +and they might +as well isn't it? +They got an option. +sometimes get it before +Nine. +nine. +Yeah. +It gives them, what does, what does options give you? +A choice. +A choice. +It's choice, and I feel I'm, I'm able to choose what does that make me feel? +Good. +In charge. +In charge. +Can I use the word control now then? +Yeah? +You're saying in charge is sort of like, I am in charge which is like this. +It is if you make the customer feel they are literally +That's right. +Yeah. +in charge of their +Now +service. +They like that. +I like to know what's happening. +Yeah. +Adrian +Yeah. +said look Ka Kath, gotta get to Plymouth tonight, I need to know. +Cos you, here he needs to know as well, don't you? +You sit here today knowing that something's gonna be done. +Because it couldn't wait until lunchtime and that, that's perfectly understandable because he wants to feel in control of what's going to happen to some degree, rather than just be at the mercy of someone else's position. +He wants to be part, you know, influence that decision, and that's important to all of us isn't it? +To know where we stand. +You know people say, I like to know where we stand. +I like to know whe , know where I stand. +People love the feeling of being in control. +And the before nine guarantees, just give them the time factor again. +Er, that enables that they choose how much time they need, er because it, do I need to go that time or that time? +And that gives them control. +And as you say it's one of the best things that they want. +Because, when you subcontract it out, has anybody changed hairdressers? +Or changed banks? +Use a service where they've changed before now? +Mm. +Was there an element of risk involved? +Were you a bit concerned at the time making the decision? +Worrying about what might happen? +And everybo , when you contract out something, when you ask someone else to do something for you. +Ooh oh! +There's just that doubt. +Obviously, repeat experiences, good ones, gives you peace of mind. +But what I'm saying is, it's this that you really want. +And becau , that's one of the most valuable benefits you can give a customer time and control. +Any more? +Yeah the er, the noon one. +Mhm. +You're fo , guaranteed +Oh yeah. +before noon. +Oh sorry. +The noon, yeah. +Again, we come into which means that what? +Well it's, I put down on here that er, it's a benefit for customers that possibly their shops close half day where they can have collections, er sorry deliveries in the morning so that they've got benefit of having deliveries A M +Right. +only. +Well done. +Again, we're back to being involved +Choice, yeah. +and choice. +Well done. +Yeah. +And als , erm and on them three services is what we said a few moments ago, they got the choice of three different options. +Right. +So that the +Really , you're giving them time and control and it's up to you, it's an alternative choice on the whole thing. +I dunno whether a price would be a feature or a benefit. +I mean it's gotta be +I think +a benefit +Yes. +to them. +Be , yes certainly. +But obviously people always receives the choice doesn't it? +If, well it's a value judgement they make isn't it? +But I don't think selling price saving is a, I don't think putting money up front first is a good idea. +No. +Because if you put it up front first, what do we now discuss everything around? +Money. +Money. +That's right , yeah. +D'ya see what I mean? +That dictates. +That's right. +What I'm saying is, you always assume that that is people's er albeit, which it is obviously isn't it? +But +You're detracting from the real issue of their needs. +That's right. +That's right. +Why, I mean it might not be worth anything, I mean, you know, it's a value, you can't, you can't start influencing them about money to early, because it's the value benefit of that that they're really looking at. +So I would keep money well out of it. +Last thing innit, really? +Yeah. +Because when he makes out mu ,bi how much is this worth? +Is what, is where the money thing is coming in not, how much he saves on the level of service. +And then he makes a value judgement. +Is it worth it? +No. +You get a taxi sometimes don't you? +To places. +You don't have to go in your own transport. +What's the deciding factor? +Are there special taxis? +Mhm. +No. +Is it worth it sometimes? +Yeah it is. +Would you use it as an everyday mode of transport? +Yeah. +Mm mm. +You see what I mean? +Some people do. +Some people get taxis everywhere. +Do their shopping with a taxi . +Because for some people there may be a value judgement made about it. +I don't know. +But what I'm saying is, is that everybody makes their own value judgement and be careful that you're not making, imposing your value onto them. +Th they're free to judge. +Yeah? +Next one? +Saturday Saturday delivery. +Right. +Erm, again it's an option for them to have if need be. +Er, but I've put down here that erm but possibly some retail outlets although the Saturday is the busiest day of their week they might important merchandise to arrive particularly at, you know, Jaeger shops, expensive shops where like the price of the item warrants paying a Saturday surcharge. +Alright. +So certain areas can have delivery Saturday. +What are the things apart from the value of the item ones in erm you're right Phil, by the way I'm not saying you're wrong. +The urgency of the package. +Convenience. +If a restaurant needed a microwave cos they're open all weekend they couldn't wait till Monday. +Well what about erm working weeks for industry and commerce. +A lot of +Six +a lot of factories +Yeah. +do open on a Saturday +That's right. +and they don't actually do collections, they don't actually do, do any production. +What do they do? +They do all the +Cleaning. +clean up on a Saturday. +Right. +I've put that down. +Mhm. +Put that +Right. +down. +Mm mm mm. +Cos +That's what we want. +Obviously, it's again, it's control so, so a Saturday delivery +could give you the benefit of erm reduce down time. +Have you heard that expression? +When, if a production line is going and the production breaks down but er if we can reduce our time, has anybody worked in a in a, er, a co , an industrial environment on, what sort of cost saving could you +Well +say er, a production of say two hours would be where you worked, would you know that time? +Er er +On a production line? +choo choo choo choo choo choo +Er, to give some, but none of us have worked in that environment and it's not something we're familiar with. +To be honest it's really difficult to put a cost to that. +Hundreds or thousands. +Er, thousands. +Thousands. +I mean we're talking big numbers an hour aren't we really? +Yeah. +In the steel industry we'll probably +I mean +talk in terms of both. +Tens of thousands +per hour? +Yeah. +Terry? +Yeah? +So what I'm saying is, is getting a delivery if you can't get something there in time I mean, it may mean that you know in advance that you need something done and you can deliver in a normal working week, but maybe it's inconvenient in a normal working week. +Maybe, there's nobody really there, maybe it's engineer brought on site. +Yeah. +Because you're not, although you're using the power space, the power er er of the production line or equipment, they might not be, that might not be what you're making, you're just using that kit and you need the supplier of that kit to bring an engineer in and you need to get a part of it, but you want control of that rather than just waiting on a supplier to do it for you. +Yeah? +Mm. +And that reduces our time. +We are now talking a few over there. +It may be making +Quite quite often you tend to find in industry where er, if you're dealing with mechanical bits and pieces +Mhm. +if you've got one bit that can't work without another bit, and the bits can be relatively cheap, say may only be about twenty P a bit, but if the twenty P bit doesn't arrive to work with the other bit +One of the +then it's worth twenty thousand . +I suppose it'll be into your . +. +Well said Andrew. +Do you know what this is? +Mm. +Well that's a bulb, you need one without the other, so if that doesn't arrive so you're knackered. +What do you reckon it's used for that? +What do you reckon it's used for? +That sort of thing. +Probably used for machinery +Yeah. +If I looked on one of your er account entries, it would probably say fastening. +Now to me, what's a fastening to you? +Zip. +A zip. +Zip. +Mm, yeah. +A button. +A button. +Yeah. +But fastening is a complete industry. +It's how we've, on the actual er vehicles there is actual metal fastenings that's holding the whole trailer together. +Rivets. +Yeah. +Rivets, or fastenings. +Right? +This'd probably be used for a construction of some sort I would imagine. +Would you? +Maybe er +Bolting tasks. +Bo , holding machinery through er a base of some sort. +Yeah. +Some, I mean it's the sort of item that people probably buy hundreds of to hold items down with or construct something, er er put something together right? +How much do you reckon it's worth? +Not, not a lot. +Be interesting , ha? +About four pound. +I don't think it will be but +Four pound. +Which bit's worth more than the other two? +The bolt is. +Yeah. +Do you +Either. +reckon they sell them like that? +D'ya think they some people buy cos they need more oops because they need more of these than these at some time? +No. +Or, they maybe replacing some of these but they got plenty of these, or they're replacing some of these but they've got plenty of these? +Yeah? +I reckon that you'd probably buy those cheaper than this item because of the raw materials would you say? +Yep. +I mean +Plus that's a lot, lot smaller. +They probably come in sets, yeah? +Or people order them together, yeah? +If you were ordering hundreds and hundreds of these would you put, express them through a parcel delivery service? +No. +Someone else here. +Well probably not, no. +Would you probably , +Well no. +how d'ya reckon people buy these? +How are they delivered? +At a time. +Box. +Box. +They probably get them on pallets and stuff like that. +Tell them to ring back? +Yeah. +And er +so, if I was to walk into the place that was selling these +Hello. +what sort of picture have you got of the environment I'm in? +She will call you back. +Industries. +It's in a heavy industrial warehouses, they're, they're, they're +they're probably pressing these out at quite a rate of knots aren't they? +It's er Bob student they've asked to interrupt the . +Oh! +Oh well I apologise for that then. +You'll need a then won't you? +Shall we go up? +Apologise for this. +Hello . +You can carry on. +Where were we? +Where were we? +Construction engineering manufacturing. +Construction engineering. +Oh, well I think we've got to the point haven't we, where these are probably cheaper than the bolts. +And they're +Hello. +they bolt like this in pairs +Hello? +How did you get +as, as a pair. +then ? +but what tends to happen? +Probably if you'd brought something from M F I. +You got one missing. +Missing. +You got one missing. +You got, you know. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And what usually goes missing? +The bolt. +Nearly always the nuts. +Mm. +So er, what we've got is a situation where somebody's ordered maybe a couple of thousand of these +But no nuts. +but they want, no, they've got the nuts as well. +But inevitably they've been sort of thrown in a corner and people have fiddled around with them like I've fiddled around with this and we find we got what, twenty or thirty of these missing. +Now, we're talking about a totally different situation. +The weight is different the numbers are +significantly less and so you might well consider the need to use this means +we, can't use them as you were saying earlier Adrian, yeah we can't use one part without the other. +Yeah. +It is necessary. +So, this now becomes very urgent. +And so we might well Express these then or even send erm +I suppose for the construction industry you're then looking at +perhaps when you po produce like the channel tunnel and things +Yep. +like that, where it's labour intensive that you're paying people maybe thirty, forty, fifty pound a hour +That's right. +And if they're sitting there +Yeah, that's right, yeah. +on their backsides waiting for nuts +, you know +Yep. +then it's not just the intrinsic value of the items themselves +Yep. +It's the +That's a consequential loss. +In fact you could in +in +yeah in fact that's a fir , that's a very good example you see, because in that situation you might well pay more for the carriage than the value of the item +Yeah. +because of the other things that you're losing, er guys sitting +Mm mm. +on their backsides +Overtime +getting paid whatever it is. +and cost , overheads. +O , other machinery maybe, maybe you're burning electricity unnecessarily because of er having to keep +To stay warm. +compressors and things running. +Allsorts of costs may well be impinging on this. +So you find yourself maybe paying well over the price of the value of the item +Mm mm. +just to get it there because it's urgent. +Think of any other examples? +Well clothing might have said, important merchandise, clothing +Yep. +In a place I used to +Eyes. +work +at least I think at work +operation Pete is it? +What, what was that Carly? +Eyes. +Yeah. +Course, yeah. +Mo +Organs. +Most products used in er manufacturing, whether it's in pharmaceuticals, food, industry, er all products that rely on, you know being there on time +Yeah. +to meet, meet that kind of . +I mean, even deadlines isn't it? +Magazine +Yep. +deadlines. +well my wife's in the rag trade and this morning she's got er, a fashion show starting, and I'll bet you, I don't know this, but I'll bet you at least two of her manufacturers will have sent her samples to put in that show which probably will arrive at nine o'clock this morning. +Now how they're gonna send them I don't know, but I can assure you they will send them in a hurry. +Cos they were probably putting buttons on, or doing the last stitching +Last night. +last night. +That's it. +Mm. +Now it isn't,th the value it doesn't matter there. +What they're doing is they're sending it so that somebody will place orders. +And they could find themselves with, you know, somebody asking for a thousand of an item and it's well worth their while therefore, spending a bit of money getting it there. +That was Adrian's, also, that was Adrian's point. +Exactly Adrian. +Yep. +And this is when you've been on the receiving end of it. +Now, some of us haven't. +I've never worked where I've had to get materials together and you know, sort things out. +I've worked in advertising. +You see it in the crisp industry, they're all +Yes. +they're all +well +No salted crisps. +We were +well to be fair, first i +Times I got that in. +ha , how can I say, what,whe when you're talking about fa , I mean fast moving consumer good are fast +Mm. +moving off the shelves and into the shop and, what we would do was erm deli people now do er, stock an order by computer and, and people like Sainsburys were doing that in the seventies, you know, and they would actually work over er work on erm data erm, from their computer and order er erm you know, okay, they'd be an event at the weekend or something and they'd, they'd of, increase it or something, but they would technically work out exactly what the throughput of certain items were. +And it goes through the till now doesn't it? +Yeah. +Well, yes, they have a comput +yes they have the computer software. +In my, in my day probably someone did it a little bit off that, different +Maybe. +but the, but the proce , the, er the, the whole thing works on the same principal but now they're doing it without, with less effort. +Now what I'm saying is, is the retail trade or the sharp end of th , you know,i it's, it's very much, it's staying alive. +If you over stock, you're dead! +You know I mentioned +Yes. +the manufacturing point, from that end, not from the end- user to get the products, to, to the retail +Yeah. +outlets, I meant that +Ye , you're probably right. +But I mean to be fair we used to we, warehouse thousands of tons of potatoes in Leicestershire, you see what I mean? +We've made +Yeah. +we make er, you know you feel, ah my factory we thinks looking at +Like a . +see looked at, looking, looking, look how we treat our potato, aren't they gorgeous! +You know, and tha , we wouldn't go and have a look at a parcel machine system we'd look at lovely potatoes,. +And Marks and Spencers use the same potato. +Can you just get your girls to wear their hats on each layer and we'll have your potato,the , you know, that's how you used to get the Marks, get their Marks and Spencers account. +A , but what I'm sa ,wha the point you were making Adrian, is tha , is is that's what you've gotta keep in mind about every time you walk into a business or phone up a business, that it does matter that it's in, your, that's not what we want cos I'm telling you, you know, don't you know, the security guys photographing, you know, lampposts and stuff like that. +But if it's a bolt that holds a lamppost down and they've under under-ordered, there's not, but they're with them, then we can take those. +The other thing is, is docu , documents are the same. +If, there are, there are industry working to deadlines all the time. +I in Terry was just mentioning his wife's business, in advertising, d'ya, would sell the advertising space in your feature or your magazine or whatever try and get the bleeders to send you that what they wanna put in it! +A friend of mine sends things like that and they gotta be and the proofs have to be sent. +Honestly! +You know. +Oh trying to get companies to decide +how they're gonna say, what they're gonna say, coming up with art work ideas and whatever. +And it was always to,ye , you know, you ask a commercial artist what sort of lead time, that's another, another er another word that you might come across, because again, you don't want them to speak our jargon but we can speak there's. +You know, if I said to Terry's wife, Mrs , how much lead time do you need to set up your show? +What would she say? +What does sh , what do I mean by lead time? +To set it up , the amount of time it takes her to get it up, be prepared +That's right. +for it. +what about we , and if I, if one of her suppliers I asked them, if I said well okay, if we feature your outfit here, how much lead time you ne , do you need from order to production? +What do I now mean? +If I place the order today how much lead time do you want? +What do I mean? +Actually the time from er +Time. +when the order placed to the, when it's gonna be on the rack and ready. +In i , actually in my shop is what I mean. +Now +It doesn't work that way in the rag trade that. +Remember I was saying to you about the whole of the rag trade? +I know it's gonna cost sending them by the way. +Mhm. +And the rag trade was also upside down ready on the trailer to come across, I won't bore you with the way they do their budgeting for example, but what happens is, my wife will go to one of those suppliers and say yes, a number of my people want to buy that dress so we want a thousand of them. +And I want them on, such and such a day. +Alright. +That's no problem. +It's not +Fine. +how long does it take you, what's your lead time? +So really what's the, what +You get it there on time. +What, what you're saying is, is the lead, if I ask that question then now they would say,tha when, when do you want it? +That's right. +It's like, if you go to, I've heard, I've not been, but if you go to Hong Kong, you can have a suit made overnight. +Yeah? +Yeah. +That's a tailor-made, handmade suit that is stitched +Mm mm. +overnight. +And shirts. +And shirts +made. +In Thailand while you wait. +Cos they will just say, they'll just sit down and make it. +Measure you up make it cos they want the money. +Cos, that's what they need. +Because labour, there's loads of it and it's very cheap. +And really, what the rag trade's famous for is labour, very cheap. +And that's why they can +Stretch it. +That's right. +And that's why they can +You've been watching House of Elliot. +What I'm saying is, that's why they respond in that way, which, in in other industries and comp , businesses, er, we have different er, things to consider don't we? +Like arranging where they're bought and so on. +Now T N T do something, when d'ya want it? +We'll get it there. +We'll get it there. +Because, I mean, if we can't do it through T N T overnight i , if tomorrow's too late who do we use? +And if they say well, we want erm seventy five different locations served with crisps stands by ten o'clock tomorrow because our advert is going out on national T V tomorrow can we do it? +Yeah. +And we then go and recruit, we'll go the, you know, we'll go to the job centres and get them. +Mm. +Or, they'll turn round, if the money's, if the money is big enough, they'll turn round to anybody who works for us and say, d'ya wanna join us? +Come and join us. +Get your kit on and do a bit, d'ya know what I mean? +And they'll just ask people to partake and we'll get it done. +If it's, if it's, feasible we'll get it done. +And that's the sort of ethos that T N T's got. +But we're likely to make more money at it than perhaps the sweat shops do. +So what I'm saying is, is lead time in lots of business is highly valuable but if you can cut down the delivery time and give them more lead time you're actually extending +Yeah. +the lead time by tightening up and this is where your time deliveries come in. +Because, although it's before nine erm, the next morning erm you're actually giving them now more lead time, you've given them another day because an , sometime tomorrow you know, if it gets there at two o'clock and it's off-loading in in in at the bay and someone checks that it's been received and then someone makes a phone call to tell them it's there, and then they're doing something else, and then they come down and have a look at it, how many boxes do you think are sitting on loading bays that don't get looked at for a day or two, or three, or four, five when they've had a next day service? +Quite a few. +Quite a few. +Mm. +My other half ordered from a catalogue disc drives to assemble compu , er a home computer and he was looking very carefully cos computer parts can be quite expensive and he was looking at national catalogue for the best prices. +He knew exactly what he wanted, or, or the range of things he wanted, and the price that he, he was price conditioned and working out which was the best price, priced package. +And oh! +Look at that place in Southampton, can do me a disc drive for two hundred quid or whatever it was, I don't know why but I can't remember the price, but let's keep it at two hundred pound, And he phoned them up and said oh your price is very good on that one. +Right. +Yes it is. +There's a lot of people ordering that one. +Okay then, can I have one? +Yes he said. +That will be two hundred pounds plus V A T, plus thirty pounds carriage. +He said thirty pounds? +That's a hell of a lot to be asking, you know, why is it so much? +Oh it's express. +He said right, oh so I'll have it tomorrow? +He says, no it takes thirty days to get here. +Sorry it wasn't thirty days, ten days to get here. +What service does he need Carly? +I can deliver to you next day, but it takes him ten days to get it here, what service does he need? +Mm? +Before nine. +Before nine. +Mm. +Say it again louder. +Carriage forward. +Carriage forward. +It's called carriage +Can you +forward. +co can you explain to those who don't know what it is cos it's +Yeah. +a, it's a stupid name isn't it? +Carriage forward. +Sounds like the, talk about the horse before the ca , the cart before the horse. +In the first place you've got three companies, A B and C C's your manufacturer +D'ya wanna draw, do you want to draw it on here? +Yeah, wait a minute. +You got three companies A, B and C. +Erm we'll call B the carrier sort of like the go between if you like A, is your say, shop and C is your manufacturer. +Now you may have a customer that comes into the shop at A and they need something desperately, they walk in the sho , may walk in and say look I need that compact disc player, my life depends on having compact disc player and shopkeeper no see now we haven't got it. +But what they can do in this case is the manufacturer's at C, but the manufacturer cannot deliver to the shop until maybe two weeks time they can phone us, the carrier, we will then arrange for someone to go to manufacturer at C, pick it up, bring it to us and then we'll take to the shop. +Right. +All for a charge of course. +Right. +So that gives what, to the shopkeeper? +Control. +Control again. +Now what else we could do, well said +Customer satisfaction. +that's, that's that's well said, but we can also do third party +Third party. +carriage forward +Oh yeah. +that's why, that's so that we can give the shop his control of supply which actually like my da , you're saying if it was a computer disc supplier he could have next day delivery to him and then next day delivery to my man. +Mm. +Right? +What we can actually do is suggest to the C, the C D or the computer shop your manufacturer can send directly to Peter via us, I then say via us. +Aye, you'll get the bill. +Mm mm. +But we will send the bill +To that shop. +you can +Mm mm. +send them the bill and we'll send them the goods. +They, Peter, if he found out where they were coming from what might he do? +Phone them. +To the supplier. +He might cut out the middle man you see. +Cos he might be able to go straight to the ba , the +Yeah. +Now obviously, we don't +want to lose his business so we protect him but we don't say it's coming from there. +We are, we represent him, it's his delivery van +Yeah. +that delivers to Peter. +And that's third party carriage forward which is even, and Peter's even happier because he doesn't even have to wait two days now, he gets his delivery next day. +And the bill he, that he gets at the same as the time as the delivery, and what's normal credit conditions? +Thirty days. +Thirty days. +So when does the thirty days start ticking by? +We get our money back much quicker. +That's right. +You do. +So instead of waiting ten days for delivery and then the invoice being,tha , you know being delivered with the goods when you open +Yes. +it up there's the bill the bill can be eleven days in advance of that which means improved +Well that means everybody's happier. +The manufacturer's happier +That's right. +cos he gets his money quicker. +Well done. +The shopkeeper's happier because he gets +Aha. +his money quicker. +We're happier because we get paid quicker and the end-user's happier cos he's +Aha. +got his product quicker. +That is it. +And if the shopkeeper uses our service all the time he doesn't have to carry any stock. +Yep. +Yeah. +Right. +Improved cash flow. +And if he doesn't have to carry any stock what does that mean with th er in terms of his capital being tied up. +It isn't. +He can do +He could +what? +Open +He could do so something else. +Another shop. +another shop. +Yeah. +D'ya see? +But d'ya know something? +There are businesses out there that don't understand that. +They probably don't even know we exist. +D'ya know, d'ya know +Yeah. +why? +D'ya know why they don't know it exists? +People like shops. +I don't know why it is, no. +Because nobody has target them. +Yeah. +That's right. +Anthony? +I've seen a lot of companies like that +Honestly. +just recently. +Why, why +Can I tell you another reason why as well +Peter rang this computer +because +in Southampton and he said we can give you next day this, they won't, they won't enter into it, we can give you next day delivery but it takes ten or twenty days. +And I bet you, if you look at how many of your accounts are not using carriage forward when they should you would be amazed. +Existing on your roller now. +And so, why so many don't know about carriage +I know. +forward +Yeah. +They don't understand. +That's it. +They don't understand what it means. +Th ,ca , what do most people use carriage forwards for? +Just collecting from somewhere else and bringing it back to themselves. +Bringing it back, sending it back. +Yeah. +Invoice them +let me, the o the other thing we can do is if it's broken the shop can send it back but the man, the other person pays. +Yeah. +Mm. +That is also carriage forward. +Comes back to the person. +And a lot of our carriage forwards are +Are +returns. +Yeah. +And then they put in a claim form. +Or sometimes they've got an account in your name. +And that's why we don't make money on carriage forwards cos we don't sell carriage forwards for the positive reasons, we say, well if they don't want them send them back, or if they're damaged send them back. +Yeah. +Or if you have to have, I used to do it for erm West Bro , er Northampton Brewery. +Banson's +Banson's +Brewery. +Erm, it was, was Banson Brewery. +Er no it wasn't Ba , Banson's Brewery, erm +Anson's +no sorry, I'm I'm in the wrong trade, it was er gas cylinders. +And we used to send back the erm +The valves. +the valves. +They used to er se , we couldn't carry the empty ga , you can imagine that's not express parcel stuff, but the valves er, would sometimes need er replacing and we would send them a valve and, and while, instead of having any down time, we would give them you know deliver the spare, have the spare come back for repair. +Do you understand? +Cos there's a lot of this maintenance thing that goes on as +Mm. +as well isn't there with businesses? +It isn't just service doesn't end at the sale,so , a lot of things have to have after-care don't they? +Or +Mm. +a service contract with them and there's lots of business, repeat business. +Another one we did, er, out of South Wales was hip replacement kit +Gosh! +to erm the hospitals and erm they would appar , I might be wro , I'm sure this is the way she explained it to me cos one of the girls in the branches did explain it to me once, and they said they have a choice of joints, like the doctor would say er +New brain. +your due to, you know, you, you were due for your hip replacement. +Right. +And what they would do is have a look and say ooh that's, ooh that's about your size, that's about it. +Right. +They don't make a joint do they, for you, you, you, you and you? +They're all sort of standard sort of size pieces of kit. +Cos it's an engineering job really isn't it? +Yeah. +You know. +Yeah. +Providing you're looking after the blood supply, I mean, you know, the cardiovascular bit, you know, it's a bit of an engineering job. +So they,th , you, you have a choice of hips, and they also have a bit of saw, a bit of sawing kit and screw in, you know, have delicate screws. +Cos it's, it is pins and stuff isn't it, that makes +Yeah. +the hip work? +So they have little screws to, you know, to go into the bone and little er delicate instruments which are highly developed instruments and manufactured by certain pattern. +And they actually supply them in special sealed containers, you know, little cases that er, so, when you're doing a hip job you have a little kit come from the supplier. +And what they do, is they give them a couple of choices of bo , you know, hip joints to go for and the guy decides, the surgeon decides, does his job and then the kit goes back to the manufacturer again and then when the, another hospital orders it they make up a, another kit. +Obviously there's a lot of sterilizing going on in the meantime and all this. +But they don't, these tools are used again, and again, and again you know. +The screws they make are, are to be there in the body and the parts are in the bodies, but the bits they don't use come back and then they are put back into stock again. +And our service was so good to hospitals,, that they'd be somebody on the table well where's the bit? +Mm. +She's just getting her anaesthetic now. +Well where's the bits you know? +And they're ringing up er Julie about it, and say Julie well, they're here. +What's happened? +Because the service was so good they'd all, you know, they'd forget about the delivery that would be there. +She'd supply them. +So it was there? +Yes. +Already +Yeah. +there. +And then one day it didn't. +Can't find this bit. +They're always going down for anaesthetic, we can't find it. +Now she's just had a pre-med now. +Right okay. +We can't find it. +Can you find it for me? +Okay then. +Traced it. +But of course it took a little bit of time, an hour or so, and th , the woman came round again, they said can't do you today +can't find the joint. +So, she came back out of er pre-med, had a nice happy half hour on a bit of valium and came back out of it again. +Went back up to the ward cos there was no bit. +Do you know where it was? +In the erm gate house at the hospital. +We had delivered it but they hadn't taken it from the gate house to you know, normal procedure but they, we delivered it normally but they hadn't taken it to the exact part of the hospital it was going to. +So, Julie sent the patient a bunch of flowers and sh , and said sorry for the de , for the delay, you know it's there tomorrow, and she had this, she had it done again. +But really, what, all they wanted to do was save face from the hospital because it wasn't our fault but she used a bit of you know, we won't embarrass the hospital we'll say +And then our customer's happy. +bit of customer care, but really +And, well +we all, we'll lose face with the patient +Mm mm. +because we int gonna, we haven't gotta worry about what she says about, but he sa , the hospital didn't wanna lose face, but I mean, the hospital said thank you . +Cos they were saying will they tell her, you know the part hasn't come and, so we said okay, let's pretend the part didn't get there. +Send her a bunch of flowers. +But really it had got there but again But what I'm saying is, that service of carriage forward we were making almost as much money on the kit coming back cos we could have charged another +It's five quid isn't it? +Yeah. +It's five pound at the moment is it? +It has been up to nine or ten pound for +Mm. +return. +Because it ca , most, we do lose a lot of money on carriage forwards. +If I talk to, if you talk to our operations they will say, oh my God! +Do you know why? +Because, we don't know what we're carrying. +A lot of carriage forwards +are returns and damages. +Mm. +And they're in a terrible state when we pick them up. +Because, you can imagine working for us, you received something and thought that's no good and can't use it, what happens to it then in your warehouse or despa +Just sta , lays there. +And what happens to it while it's ? +Kicked around. +Kicked around. +Kicked about. +Right. +Broken. +Broken and all that. +And, what did you say that we get a lot of claims on carriage forward? +Damaged foodstuff. +You have to insure them don't you, carriage forward of course? +Yeah. +That's why we have to +So +No you don't. +Yeah. +Tha that means we're paying out +But you see the problem is +if we do actually find out. +Yeah, you see the trouble is though we're so open to abuse. +because +Yeah. +people, they don't rush back, they don't wanna urgently express back a carriage forward, they don't work. +What they want is, they get on the phone and say that's no good, send me another one. +And we send them the replacement, and they let the broken one sit there. +How many times have you supposed to have taken something back or have it repaired or something and it's sat there, and it's sat there, and it's sat there, and it's sat there and it's collected du , I've got things round the house that I've been working on and that I've gotta, I've gotta and it's collected dust. +You know, that's another project that went sort of slowly the way. +Erm, and what I'm saying is, we don't address the things that aren't urgent +Yeah. +we only address the urgent things. +But we do leave +Yeah. +ourselves, well we've gotta protect ourselves as carriers against other people saying ah! +We broke that, or that was broke er, but we'll blame the carrier now and look at it, then our security guy goes out and they know it's been sitting around someone's you know, it's been there for months! +And er, we we, we are open to abuse on them. +But that doesn't mean to say that what Danny said was very valuable, and as you said Adrian, the four, the four parties, the receiver, the thirty party receiver, the people who are paying the bills buyer and us are very happy in many cases with using carriage forward in a positive way not just for returns +Mm mm. +yeah? +The returns do get a bit dodgy I find. +But we still do it cos we insure it, we, charge an extra fiver every time then it's good money. +I'm stopping you through your list Phil. +Well I mean, I've got a +Any more? +quite a few on here. +Is there any ones that you want me to pin point at all or +Erm le , what I wanna do is just get, just insure that we know the difference between what is giving the customer the, the benefit and the features. +So we probably won't go through them all. +But +No. +let's just discuss our way round a couple of other things because these are, this is your product knowledge now isn't it? +Yeah. +This is what you need to know about selling the service. +It's no good, er talking about how you do something, how you do is not what they're interested in. +So whats, that's how you do it. +How do you do it? +the customer. +It's, it's what can please me. +Cuddly toy . +What's in it for me? +The with them factor. +What it is in it for me? +Okay. +I've got liability options. +What d'ya mean by that, liability options? +Well like being insu , like people have got a choice of different options of insurances and +That's a good one. +Now if I said, ooh! +We offer good liability options. +We can give you transport liability at, what level's that? +Aha. +Five thousand pounds, ten thousand pounds, and fifteen thousand pounds costing three, three, six, and nine pound respectively. +Five, ten, and fifteen. +Which is forward transit . +Don't be like that. +What is the free? +Fifteen pounds a kilo. +Sorry, five, sorry I got that one. +Three, +Six and nine. +Six and nine. +and nine. +And the free one is? +Fifteen pound a kilo. +Right. +Okay. +Now what I'm saying is we, because we have good liability what can that imply? +You're getting a +How can you sell it's properties then? +In the likely event +In the likely event +In the likely event +Likely event so +Well we won't us, it won't graduate any +but does it have to do got this +You're committed +liability? +you're committed, you're committing to your service +It's like life assurance. +on the fact that you can offer you your high rate of liability. +Cos by offering a high rate of liability it's, it's suggests that we +Concerned. +that we care. +And say we co , we, we're committed. +Rather than see non-damaged if you like. +We're limited I won't ta , I don't like using the word problems without . +The reason why +What about the +we can afford to offer such good liability cover is the risk is very minimal. +Is small, yeah. +The cost is very minimal. +Yeah. +Mm. +That's what you're saying isn't it Adrian? +Yeah. +Good. +We can get excellent +Try to find the words but you had a good, good case there. +We can get excellent rates from insurance companies +That's right. +because we are so good. +Now we , actually +Yeah. +we are our own +I know about this. +inge , we're our own which means that we are, our problems are so limited that we actually carry the liability ourselves, we don't even have to use an external company to get the rates on. +We are so , so what I'm saying is, we can afford to offer marvellous cover because it's, because erm, the risk is minimal. +Dixons Starsfield got er, the same as ours really, got . +Who does? +Who does? +Dixon Starsfield, Dixons, Currys. +Right. +Where they, they offer extended five year warranties. +Now the chance of you actually needing a +Yeah. +five year warranty on a T V is . +That's right. +They generally don't go well. +My friend li , my friend offers a lifetime guarantee on his leather furniture. +Lifetime. +But the way +It's a it's not . +It's a ex , it's an extra selling point that's what +It's like when when +Exactly. +you sell me a +When you go to buy it you think oh I've got a life I can change it. +you take out, I think most people take out +life insurance +Don't you? +you don't expect to die but you just cover every +That's right. +eventuality. +That's right. +That's the pitfall. +But what +Yeah. +what what the insurance salesman do is do wobble you a little bit so that you will take it out, you know, can you afford down, if you were forty having a heart attack leaving a wife and young child behind. +I mean, they do tell you, they sell on that way don't they? +Yeah. +Yeah well they do +To sell, sell them. +they sell you som something to do with it. +You say that, that is negative. +Cautionary tales. +Yeah. +You know when somebody's at, when someone's at a lowest point, that's when they go straight in +Anything for a sale. +Yeah. +and you get them to make a will afterwards. +It's co +you see salesmanship is applying psychology, you know, and a lot of people, I mean,wha the reason why insurance companies are justified is a lot of people are protected by it, you know. +You don't always know what's good for you, you do need someone to say. +Mm. +And you're twenty one +Can you explain it to me again Kath +Mhm. +about the options there please? +Right. +What is it that you are, you don't understand? +Well I understand that you get fifteen, it's just that I've got a lot of customer where I got business that is depending on the kind of insurance that we give them, based on what our +Yes I understand. +competitors are offering. +Erm, the fifty P, P a kilo up to fifteen thousand, that I +Yeah. +That's pro-rata. +Yeah. +That I understand. +Fifteen pound per kilo. +Oh sorry I co , sorry, fifteen pound +Yeah. +per kilo up to +Pro-rata. +Up to a thousand kilos. +which is, yeah, that I +That's +that I understand. +So, if it only weighs kilos you will get how much cover? +Thirty quid. +Er thirty, thirty quid. +Yeah. +You understand that, right? +Yeah. +Now +But when you got to the options, now +The full liability, yeah? +what are you saying now fi , up to five thousand pounds? +Per item, per per assignment. +Right. +Regardless of weight. +What's that, what right +You're buying a aren't you? +You pay three pound extra +Oh extra? +Yeah. +On top of your own +On top of +Oh that's right. +on top of the fifteen pound per +No. +kilo? +No. +On top of whatever +No, no. +price the customer's paying. +Customer's rate. +How do you achieve a rate +Sorry can, can anyone +say if you +can +well +I just say +he doesn't pay fifteen pounds a kilo Adrian, he pays nothing. +He pays the rate you ask him to pay +Yeah. +and, inbuilt in that rate Mr , is fifteen +Oh I see. +pounds coverage for every kilo of weight. +That's right. +So if you have a thousand kilo pallet it's fifteen thousand pounds. +But if your item weighs a half a kilo, we'll round it up to the first kilo so that's any valid for fifteen pounds. +Right. +Now obviously that's worth a lot more than fifteen pounds to you isn't it? +Right. +So what I suggest you do is pay an additional three pounds which means that that is now covered for up to five thousand pounds regardless of it's weight. +Right. +Now I understand. +Are you happy with that Adrian? +Yeah. +Now, the reason +Yes, yes. +why you give them different options right. +Thank you. +On, on, on the same day they only charge nine pound and i , everything's valid up, insured up to fifteen thousand pounds per consignment. +Are you happy,yo you happy with that then? +In actual fact, sorry to point it, that's consignment contracts . +Right. +But yo , +So +i I haven't, you know, it, because when you read it it doesn't always make, it goes in there, and I understand +Right. +people getting a little bit confused about that. +But, that just means the levels of insurance, as a risk, ah, you know, and we've just put a rate in to, to represent the, the levels of insurance because we charge you more if we insure you for more then. +Erm +So if I've got a customer that's sending erm quite a lot of parcels but have got a +Now parcels, have , what is the, what is the, what is the erm definition of a consignment? +Cos this is regarding consignment. +When is a +Ah ah sorry , it's +So , what I'm saying is +it's solely for, it's erm i ,yo you could have six or seven parcels all picked up in one consignment if it's picked up by that carrier +By one carrier. +going to one address at one time. +So that's one consignment. +Now if say, let's +So it's one consignment. +keep it +so +to a dozen. +Okay, so you got one consignment +You've got a dozen items I want a dozen items +Yeah. +Which is made up of one consignment. +One consignment. +You're only covered per consignment, so the whole twelve together are only insured for fifteen +Ah ah, ah! +thousand. +Aha. +What he must do +Is make sure that each individual box +becomes a consignment. +Ah ah. +He's got to label up and pay for at a consignment rate each item. +He +Cos +can't +I understand. +Can he put that on his er, consignment +or +note? +Can he actually put a, a tick o on a box, you know when you fill in a consignment note? +Yes. +D'ya know when yo , d'ya know when you put one on each parcel +You write a co sep separate consignment number +Yeah. +for every consignment. +If if the customer feels that every item he's sending out +Is valuable. +is er is valuable, can he do, I dunno. a dozen individual consignment notes and then tick the particular box +Yeah. +that he wants? +That would work out +Yeah. +then +That one. +because he's gonna pay +Yeah. +he'll be paying +If that's what he wants. +Yeah, that's it. +If he needs five thousand pound coverage on each item +On each one. +He's gonna, he's gonna have to pay for it. +he's got to send five, if you've got a twelve well twelve percent. +Now, can I put it another way Adrian? +I'm just trying to get an edge on my competitors +Right. +cos, I +Let me put it another way then. +This is only what we publish. +If you know the value of the level of insurance your client wants +Right. +and if he wants to send them as one consignment, but now the value is twenty five thousand pounds collectively you can ring up Stubbings and as , or get your F and A to do this for you, Finance and Admin, ring up Stubbings and can you give me a special rate for these goods and ar , can you give me what I can charge them for special coverage to take it higher than our normal coverage of fifteen thousand pound? +Oh I see. +Now what they will wanna know is the ins and outs of everything that you're sending. +How delicate it is, +As most insuring company,mos most brokers or people like that. +how value it is, and most insurance, yeah, that's right through a brokers. +Would you have to send in a profile? +Do you have to send it in? +Yeah. +I've never done it but I think you do have to send that in. +And can I please recommend you speak to your finance and admin people and they will say, now don't expect to be saying, oh that'll be no problem, because we na , we ain't got a F and A like that, they're always to caution, you know. +They're all +Yeah. +don't think you can do that son ! +You know you'll get this thing, don't worry, say okay +Cor! +Now ,do we? +We don't know. +Been looking everywhere. +I dunno. +Anywhere er +Who would call ? +My husband +Er erm, you, you couldn't, could put a call through. +Can't. +Er, well you could leave a message then? +No. +Well done Jenny. +Very good. +And just all the right format +Yeah. +of questions there. +How did it feel about ringing and asking questions that were ? +Did it throw you a bit did it? +Yeah. +I mean really you're saying +I could +I can't think of anywhere to go,my God! +I mean , she's saying well what do you exactly mean by this question? +I mean, I wasn't the world you know. +Now +Erm +did she hesitate for some time before the answers? +Yeah. +Mm mm. +and what did Jenny do when she hesitated? +Lis listened. +She did, but she did something else as well. +She went ha! +She went off . +She went +Mm. +Everything. +And you say ooh, come on, come on. +Come on +Have I said the wrong th +Did you feel a bit uncomfortable when she hesitated a bit then? +Mm mm. +You we , and it feels like that when you're on the phone. +Now all she was doing +now you can see that you can read those messages about the hands went didn't they? +The shoulders went, the face went long. +Mm. +Ooh! +Er, oh! +You could see her thinking about it, but you couldn't have heard that on the phone. +Yeah, you do get silences like that sometimes don't you? +And you get silences on the phone and you're thinking this is going down like a lead balloon. +No! +She's engaging brain it takes her some time to come out to the phone instruct the whole thing. +Yeah? +Don't worry about it,ta , the pregnant pause +is to use. +On a moment's thought for them to sort of. +Did you feel the pressure of having to ask the questions till then, when, when they were asking you to do it to to plans? +Very much so. +Yes. +And you will feel like that and you sit there Oh God! +I've gotta do that . +Yeah. +Preparation, good preparation will help that. +Relax, Jenny, relaxation will help that as well. +Just +Mm mm. +breathing calmly and waiting. +And, when she said anywhere was that enough information really? +Do you really wanted to know where Jenny had, where Mandy had been on holiday? +No. +Would,wo , would you liked to have known more? +I would have. +Mm. +Mm. +Yeah? +Yeah. +How could you prompt her to expand on that? +Er +Could you give me a few examples? +Well done Paul! +That's, oh yeah, how did i , repeat the question,an an and emphasize on the word. +Mm. +Could you give me an example? +Now if you say it in an ex , in a, in a do you want to give me a few examples? +You're a bit Yeah. +All she'll say, no I +No. +can't. +If you say ah! +Neil says you've been everywhere, what are the type of things, that you know, you can use tone and voice cos they can't see you. +It's all in the voice what you put into voice. +Bill had the opportunity to sit face to face with them and you catch his eye, you you used to er time to er use, use hand gestures and show things to them on, on presenters. +You haven't on the phone. +Can you give me a few examples? +Could you expand on that a little? +We what was your question Phil? +Yours was a good one. +Aha. +Where have you been? +Yeah. +Th the, the fall on the, the repeatedness , the broken record that sort, when you repeatedly question. +Ah! +Where have you been? +Oh I've been to, or you rephrase it in another way. +Well done. +Very good. +And don't lose, just because she said I wanted to know, they didn't answer me. +Stick with it. +Even if it means a few phone calls. +What exactly do you mean by that? +Sorry, I've never worked in your industry, why is that? +Yeah? +And follow it up with a new question. +So the experiences, although it's got nothing to do with your product, is what is gonna actually happen to you on the telephone out there. +Yeah? +Mandy, would you like ask Jenny a question? +Yeah. +Erm how long have you been driving? +Two and a half years. +So when did you learn to drive then? +When I was seventeen. +And what were your ideal car? +Er a Rover . +So I give you the choice of a, a Lamborghini or a Rover what would you rather have? +A Rover I think then. +Ah. +So if I let you drive my Rover home, would you? +Definitely. +Yeah . +And if I let you drive my Rover home, would you? +She said yes to the actual question. +That was more than a closed question, it was closed +Oh right. +would you? +You said would you drive my Rover that's the question? +When you said we'll talk about that question last. +And the others will have to wait till they come up again. +Ah ah! +Right. +Well done. +See that, excellent. +Right. +How did it feel Jenny asking a load of questions? +Straight out weren't they? +Yeah, when she was saying asking them +And the, that's right. +Now, the other thing is Phil because he's got a new experience with it, struggled to find a question. +Right, he knew what she was talking about, she'd got it written down and she was gonna get that information. +But sometimes it can sound too I know this didn't happen +Yeah, comes a bit too +it's just +I mean I'm not suggesting you, you behave like that on the phone +but what I'm saying is, awareness now, I'm just slagging off the awareness. +When it sounds rehearsed, it sounds, like, that. +And it doesn't sound quite as clear as if you have to think about who you're talking to. +So the fact that you struggled Phil +Mm mm. +to find the next question, the customer knows you're thinking. +Ah that's interesting. +Try and get that now buy yourself a bit of time +Mm. +think about that. +Let me , let me think about that. +Do you mind if I come back to you on that one? +And if you can't stand the heat get out quick and come back to it. +But it, eventually it will sta , you'll think afterwards, oh God! +I didn't know the next thing. +Analyse what you did +Sure. +then think about it, and there's always another call. +Yeah? +No problem at all. +Okay. +Now, that was very well done . +No problem at all there. +Paul, would you like to ask Carly a question? +I didn't understand it. +I've done three questions of each. +Oh God Paul ! +Do you understand it now? +No I, no I understand what you're saying, it's just that I thought you said three questions of each. +I done three open, three limited, and three yes and no questions. +Would you, would you wanna erm, d'ya wanna +No I've crossed them all out now. +Okay. +Go on. +Well away you go then? +Sorry, well I've +The blurb. +got that one. +My, must be my mistake. +Well I thought you would have got it in black and white. +I got a big +No go on. +in the mornings. +Go on Paul. +Carry on. +Carry on. +Hello Carly! +Hello Paul. +How long were you seeing your boyfriend then before you married him? +Er, about six years. +About six years. +Whose idea was it to get married? +Both of us really. +Yeah? +Right. +How old were you er when you got married? +Twenty one. +Do you live at home with your par , er your parent's home or erm do you live in, in your home? +Well currently with my parents because we moved down. +Are your parents ha +Or moved up I should say, sorry. +erm are your parents happy with your choice of husband? +Initially no. +Well , I was afraid of the answer then. +Well done. +That was a very +good question Paul. +Yes obviously. +Excellent +Keep you on . +Excellent questioning Paul there. +Well I did have some more but I thought no I +Ah, thank God for that! +. +How did you feel about answering those questions? +Fine. +No problem? +No. +Again, speed +But I think erm +Sorry go on. +Sorry. +No. +Answering back I thought he could have given me a bit more time cos I wanted to say something else and he was +Ah ah! +That's interesting. +Yes. +You could have got more information Paul! +But I didn't. +Ah I know. +But I didn't +But just +want any more. +I thought it was, it was, it was,en en en +No can I just, can I say +encroaching on her private business. +the er yes I know. +I know. +I don't care. +It's only an exercise and, and you +Yeah. +and you have e , your own agendas there, obviously. +What I'm saying is is sometimes slowing the pace and simply +Yeah. +let her think a little longer because and then she'll say, oh! +And then she's just think of that. +With Phil's hesitance we got a bit more. +And Phil was thinking I wonder whether this is about and I'm trying to think of the next question . +No. +Which is the question of what you feel when you're in the field out there trying to work something through. +Which calls +Actually you've hit the nail on the head there didn't you? +Mm? +When you said Phil thought he wasn't, I'm not listening. +No. +Because that's what it's all about. +Yes. +And when you're listening you're watching for body language as well. +Mm. +And so if you have not been concentrating on the question +Yeah. +you will probably have recognized the body that says I'm prepared to give you more. +Now, to be fair that comes with experience. +Of course. +Listening, as you become more comfortable and you become, you've done it a few times you know what you're gonna have to say and then you, you er, you listen more carefully to the answers. +But the listening is the key. +Paul had it well prepared and really she sa , but sh all his answers met with a logical sequence didn't it? +Mm mm. +Very well done and he spent a lot of time working on that did you notice? +I'm not saying that's, okay, you got a bit misled by the instructions but don't worry, but he still gave you could see that you know he was, you know, he was just +Yeah. +you know, he was caught in a +He was concentrating . +train of thought. +He was erm , he was trying +Thanks. +very hard and e , good, good preparation does take effort. +I mean I know we're only playing here, but it does take effort and, practised effort becomes easier it doesn't become hard work. +It's like playing a good game of squash, squash, to get a better game and it's not so hard because you're off to, you, you're fit for the game. +And that's what you'll do, you'll become fit. +You'll be a better player. +As you say, when you're on the phone you get those silences you just of go, mm mm, mm +Well done Jenny! +And like, +Well erm, what's ha , what would you call those? +Right. +Okay. +They know you're listening. +Listening noises. +That's very good. +That's very good. +Right. +All +Can I do, just make one announcement? +Yes. +Please do. +Just to illustrate how important this thing is, you've probably all come across and it really irritates me, you see people interviewing people on television and they've got their clipboard there and they've obviously got a prepared question so they can't falter and fine, that means they've prepared it. +And they ask a question and somebody's very open with the answer and they da , they just,sa expand on that answer and then, two or +Aha. +three questions later they ask them the very question they just answered +E e expect +and that really irritates me! +And that's purely and simply because they're just not listening. +Oh. +The easiest thing in the world to take off that question +Yeah. +so that it's +so think about that because +Yeah. +And you'll lo +you don't want to get the backs up of your customers by asking them questions . +That is right. +And you'll losing the point of why +Absolutely. +you're asking the question. +See +Aha. +you're not, you're not paid to ask questions, you're paid to get in , information. +Info. +Yeah? +That's the point. +So that fact that you can't think of a next question Phil +Mhm. +don't worry, you've got some information. +We can all ask questions later okay? +What you really want then is a way to sort of happenings or embarrassments because you're a bit stuck of where you want to go. +Mm mm. +That's interesting. +Let me write that down. +Ah! +You're giving yourself some new , you know. +I think one of the things Phil can do in that si +Don't worry about it. +or anybody could do in that situation is having asked a question, they're a bit hesitant about er, the next question then simply throw in there to buy yourself some time something like ee, is that all? +Or, is any more that you can add to that? +Just to give yourself a bit of time +Mm. +Or repeat the question. +for the next question. +It will help +Yeah. +you. +Like we've just suggested. +Oh have you? +Or, what was your way of doing it before you said? +When, when you wanted to know where Mandy went? +Can you give us, tell us about that Paul? +Well I kept asking her, it made hard work, yeah. +Yeah. +What did you do to her? +You've not been listening have you Paul? +You know whe when, when we asked +He's still +Well I thought she didn't know that. +No he's still sitting back on his reflected glory now. +And rightly so as well. +Well done. +Carly would you like to demonstrate yours +Kath. +now? +Er +Could I say, say something? +Yeah. +I just think I just think it's quite important for us all to realize I did a, when I used to do a similar job to this it took me a long time before I realized that the customer, you know on the phone doesn't know that your you shouldn't have asked an open question there +Oh. +on the close and it comes, it just comes with practise, get all +Right. +from practise doesn't it? +Which is exactly it. +what I'm saying is is, you can, it doesn't matter how you ask the question, but sometimes +what I'm trying to help you practise, cos we're not, we're very good at asking closed questions in conversations but don't very often recognize, but you know, we, we we we, we'll zip backwards and forwards, and that's okay, but I want you to do consciously is know what type of questions you're asking because you can sometimes be hitting a brick wall and thinking I'm getting anywhere here and it's because you're asking too many closed questions. +Mm mm. +And you're making it sound like an interrogation. +Erm, especially when you're in front of a screen er or you're in front of a, a form that you're, someone's saying get the traffic profile out and th what they send, what they, how many they send, it can sound like an interrogational. +Get the buyer, get the product, get the carrier, get, and so on like that. +You've got to be careful that you are not losing the skill of a conversation. +Mm. +Open question what th va , advantage of open question is, is you do a less of it and they +More of it. +More of it. +And that's why it, on a foundation course we keep the questioning very simple. +Justin's experiences has tooken it, taken it further than that which is brilliant, and he can apply those skills straight away. +And if you've got those skills apply to them job, I'm not suggesting you don't, but remember the first part of a, a tele , er a telephone or a face to face sales negotiation is,th th two of these and one of these. +Right? +You should you be posing the questions and letting the discussion take place. +Posing the questions, controlling it but posing it and letting it go. +Right? +And you're gaining information. +When you've gathered information a , and and come to a conclusion erm interesting, we may have something for you there. +And that's when you get your presenter out and start matching to what the customer wants. +Now you've gone through an alternative yesterday and we know, we ta , we don't talk what is built in by design, what do we talk about? +We tell them what's built in by design and then we +Tell them the advantages. +of what they get out of it. +. And we keep it simple. +One feature maybe one or two benefits and you don't have to tell them the whole story. +Mm mm. +As you said Bill, pull out the benefits and features that are appropriate to what you've heard. +Er, there may be something you're interested in there? +Now there are tighter ways of actual sales negotiations but we haven't got the time to go into it today. +You'll have to come back on your selli , your course to do this. +Okay? +Or you ca , if you can do it on your own, brilliant! +Run with it now. +But what I want you to do is gather information, this is your answers, and match what you're doing er, what we sa provide with what you found out then. +Okay. +And you'll find out what method by just simply questioning them about the . +Let me just check before we start that everybody's got this. +I'm sure Danny, Jenny, and Carly have, but just because we've gone half way, can I just let the other three finish off their presentation? +Cos they've sat and done the preparation. +Carly. +Okay. +Hello Paul! +Erm, I know you're allergic to food and drink, so you keep on telling me, what sort of food are you allergic to? +Just about everything under the sun. +What sort +Dairy products erm dairy products , oranges various fruits. +Remember the listening noises. +Right. +Mm. +Yes? +Er, can't think of anything else specific at the moment. +But it's just about, I've got a list at home, it's about this long though. +Right. +Okay. +Erm do you actually +What type of question is that when you do actually? him. +What type of question +A minute. +Yeah. +And then, give him a choice like, can you +A choice . +what were you going to ask Carly? +Do you actually +I was gonna ask him, do you actually eat the products still to a limit? +Right. +Okay. +It's a closed question there. +Right, that's right. +How can you change ask,ge get to that, but say it as an open question. +If there are limits +No. +That's a closed +question. +What do they begin with? +Sorry, they're the words which you were . +Which foo , which food do you eat? +Yeah. +They're the words true. +There is nothing to give me +There was no last night. +these are open questions. +You said, do you actually eat the products that made you allergic Paul? +Right? +What you're saying how can ask any of those, any of those sort of questions? +This is a very useful one. +Just by . +How can you ask but using that word at the beginning of it? +I am allergic to almost an anything. +And you wanted to know do you eat almost anything don't you? +Yeah. +Do you still suffer? +So, what, what word do you make it into an open question? +Can you have them? +How +Just +How +How much of this food do you eat? +How much of these +Yeah. +do you? +Mm. +Which food. +Does anybody have any other suggestions. +Mandy, you were saying +Which foods do you eat? +Which food. +I was gonna say which food do you +Which foods, yeah. +normally +But that's still sort of limiting a bit though isn't it? +Yeah. +What I want, what food? +Types. +What, what is it? +What's, er er, erm, what off this list do you feel ? +It'll come to +Yeah. +you. +Alright. +We're gonna ask another question then though aren't we? +Right. +Right well, can you ask your third open question? +Okay. +Third open question. +What was it? +I can't +What food +What food +off this list, what do you actually eat? +No, she's already asked him what they +What do you actually eat? +Yeah. +Please +Yeah? +Erm what food? +That would be useful, yeah. +Yeah. +What foods do I eat? +Erm, I get everything, I'm allergic to at the moment. +No, I'm allergic to everything and I still eat it all. +Yeah. +Going by last night apparently, ordinary roast. +Yeah. +Okay. +Let's get back +to the point, the point of the questioning. +Carry on Carly. +Go on then. +Erm +Wha +are you scared erm +No. +Are you scared, what type of question? +An open. +Let her work it through for herself. +Oh yeah. +I know, I know that your trying to help her. +But I'm trying to make her brain work not one of yours. +No, I have got a . +I want to borrow , I want to borrow we can borrow your brain tomorrow Mandy. +We'll probably need you again +Erm +tomorrow. +What I'm saying is, are you, what er +Yeah. +what does it, what are you trying ask him Carly? +I dunno . +What was your second, answer to your second question? +Sorry. +I eat lots +I eat , I eat everything that I'm allergic to, virtually. +I'm allergic to everything but I still eat it all. +That's the information you've got so far. +Right. +Is there a special method of cooking your food at home, not obviously outside? +Now nobody help her at this stage. +Is there a special method? +Wha what, how are you gonna answer that Paul? +No. +Now, what sort of question is it you've asked then? +Closed. +Right. +Is there a special method? +Which of these can you ask to get your open answer? +What special +Shush! +I'm asking +Oh ! +Carly. +How do you cook your food? +Well done! +What, or how +how do you cook your food? +Thank you. +Thank you. +Well done Carly! +Yeah. +How do you cook your food Paul? +How d'ya cook your food? +I don't, I get my mum to do it. +Right. +Don't worry about that. +Now you've got to +Okay. +go into +Yeah. +a limiting one? +If your mum doesn't do the cooking at home, who does it? +I go out and buy chips. +You do. +And er +No sorry , go on, I'll, I'll be helpful on that. +I do. +You do? +That's no help Paul. +Carry on. +Oh okay. +Next question . +Do you like your cooking? +No. +Well , well done! +Well done! +Well that was a hard effort! +Very well done! +Thank you, thank you, thank you! +Well done! +Jean, would you like to have a go? +I want to know what happens to him. +Er +I know! +That's what I was +I'll save the best till last. +Hiya Danny. +Hiya. +Hiya. +Erm, where do you wo usually buy your clothes from now? +I beg your pardon? +Where do you usually buy your clothes from? +Oxfam. +Er +I've just recently changed to Next but I used to buy them from Oxfam when I used to live here. +Oxfam? +Good shop that is.. +Put it down now. +Right yo you go, got to Next? +Well why do you usually shop there, in Next? +Erm because it's got the Next label on it and I like that outfit. +What do you think of the staff in Next? +I think they're a load of pompous gits! +I'm . +And do you consider price or quality more important when you buy your clothes? +Quality. +Quality. +Good question. +And erm, do you spend a lot of money, money on clothes? +Not if I can help it. +No. +Excellent! +Wasn't that good. +Yeah. +Good. +It was good. +Right. +You can keep your pen on the table. +He's gonna stab . +I have this, it's, it's it's it's +It's like being stuck on a telephone line. +it's a really annoying habit I've got +I know. +I know but I just can't help fidgeting my bottom. +I know it's annoying, no. +I know it's annoying. +But I have anno +It is annoying though. +with a pen. +Do we all agree, we say annoying? +Yep. +Yeah. +Okay. +Quiet, please, for Daniel. +It's incomplete. +Think of a word. +Thank you Jean, I'll forgive ya. +Erm what type of music do you like? +I like most types of music but erm at the moment I'm, I'm into U B forty, I quite like them. +You say, now erm why do you listen to this particular music? +I think my daughter really weaned me onto it. +I didn't have much choice, I wasn't listening to it anyway so then I got quite to like it then. +Yes, you . +Erm where do you listen to this music? +Er, it's just at home usually. +So, do you listen to this every day +or is it like +Oh no, just occasionally +just sort of like +occasionally +when you've got a bit of spare time? +It's usually at weekends you know +Ooh! +Excuse me . +I listen to them. +Yeah. +Will you have this music played at your funeral? +! +Oh God ! +Mm? +No I don't think so. +Erm , I need that one there. +You sound like a copper. +That one there. +A what? +He sounds like a copper doesn't he? +A copper. +Aye. +Jean, you know what the answer is don't you? +I don't know. +I don't care, I'm not there . +Yeah. +Well done. +Well done. +Lots of informa , I know it's not re , I know we haven't talked about selling T N T, and I'll, your questions aren't really about this time, I'll do that in a minute. +What questions can we ask about T N T, to T N T potential customers? +We asked about music, we asked about food, we asked about holidays, we asked family, we asked about, what was Ja , Mandy's questions to you Jane? +What was your +Driving. +question? +Driving. +Driving. +We asked about, what was your question to +Music. +music. +Er, er clothes to Danny. +What questions do you want to know from customers about, what d'ya wanna know about them? +Their business. +About their business. +What about their business Justin? +What is the question that you want answered? +Do they send goods out? +Do they want a carrier? +Do you use a carrier? +Right. +How regular? +Can we assume that something moves out of most buildings? +Yep. +Yeah. +Yeah, we can. +What sort of things move out of any business premises. +Papers +Letters. +or letters. +Documents. +That's right. +Something's likely to move. +So yo , rather , do they send goods out? +Can we assume that one anyway Ju , maybe not goods +Well I su +but there's, something moves that needs a delivery +Mm mm. +somewhere. +Would you, would,wo , I mean, just the way, what made you feel that it wouldn't be the case? +But would you mean +Well er , well I've, and added two hundred mailers +Mhm. +in like two days and +Yeah. +that's the fir , and you ring up hairdressers and +Mm. +vets and all sorts +Mm. +so you had to ask them. +Mm. +A couple +Some people just have, some people will will never have a need for a carrying service. +Yeah. +No, there is some +Are you, sort of +Okay, you were talking about, you you're talking about your target customers were sort of like abattoirs and hairdressers and stuff like that? +Yeah but you know the mailers that we did, I mean +Right. +that that +They were just registered businesses. +we were told to ask +Right. +you know +Okay. +do you ever have a need for a carrier +Yeah. +at all? +You know before you start giving them all the spiel +What type of question is that though? +Do you ever have a need +Closed. +for a carrier? +It's closed. +Yeah. +Cold. +It's, still a +You have to open. +How can you ask to that? +Yeah, you could say that. +Well there's, they need to know a little bit about you. +So you said, you know, good morning, my name's Kath . +I'm a, the business repre , I'm, I represent th er, T N T super mail, I er, am responsible for business development here +you've recently received er erm, a some information from our company, am I right? +Yes. +Yes. +Or I know you've recently received some information, that's good. +I can see that you are a hairdresser now what question do you wanna ask? +Would you ever need +How often do you have a use for a parcel carrier? +How often would you ever send, or something into your company, or have something sent out especially, by perhaps a customer request? +So you need to know how often, right? +Assume something goes. +I guarantee something'll go. +It might be once in +Yeah. +bloody blue moon and you may not be worth putting on your and calling every six weeks Mandy, but, it might be worth asking it in a more open way. +Because Sod's law'll say if you ask it open, you'll find summat out you never assumed. +Mm. +Yo you know. +You never thought. +Well actually, yes we're the head office +for a regional group here and as well as have a, er an actual service for hairdressing we also have a distribution er control shop at the back. +And, we have our own delivery service to our cu , to our own network. +Now what's the question you can ask this hairdresser that got his own bus , I know I'm using a, a an extreme +Mm mm. +point, they've got their own delivery service. +What else would you like to ask? +Is there any place you can ever not go to? +What areas does it, do they tend to serve? +What happens if give me an scenario, a cautionary tale like the insurance man does to his customers. +You sell +God forbid +God forbid? +God forbid that you should ever lose parcel and Mrs on Newcastle hasn't got a wig base any more +your reputation's going to be in tatters, isn't it? +What do you do in that situation? +What are you gonna do? +Do you know the one thing in that +God forbid! +he said, and I wrote it down here, which I think is wonderful, probe th the past problems and future worries. +What would happen if +Yeah. +in the future? +What has happened, when +Mm. +is past. +Yeah? +That's a very good question. +That's how they do, sell insurance cos e everybody knows who they've use, had a mishap and not insured. +Because if you say, have you, what type of question's this? +Have you ever had any problems? +It's a closed one. +Na , no. +And what they gonna say? +No. +How difficult was it Mandy to think when Jenny was asking you about your holiday? +It was quite difficult. +Why? +Mm mm. +And you , you gave mono , what's the word? +syllabic. +Syllabic. +Syllabic. +syllabic. +Can't get my teeth right. +Monos , one word answers didn't she? +Long words like. +What I'm saying is, is if customers +feel like that and if you ask, if, they must say yes, no, because it, to engage, hang on th the phone rings, ring, ring, ring,ya , yes? +Yeah? +Erm, yes right er, yes . +You know, and they're in this sort of +Mm. +mo , very +Yeah. +fra ,ma frame of mind, you got to demand and wait for the answer, even though it might take a minute for the to say erm, erm, oh we use erm, you know, we've got a, a, a local van that comes and se , like, you know . +What happens if Well, oh sa , pwurgh, I don't know, I mean she has to wait for a week . +You know? +You know. +Or we rush one over to her specially, make a special journey. +Right, now where d'ya, what do you wanna go, what question do you wanna ask her next? +Someone other than Justin now. +How do you achieve that? +How do you achieve that. +Good question. +What sort of question is that Bill, open or closed? +Open. +Open. +Wo! +That is open question. +How do you achieve that? +Now sometimes what salesmen do is suggest the answer, do you do this? +Do you do that? +Do you do that? +Do you do that? +Shut up! +Don't keep on. +How do you do that? +Quite difficult eh, er well usually somebody goes in their car, you know. +She'll send her, or I'll le I'll let someone go, someone from the shop go. +Now what do you wanna ask? +You think of the problems. +Could this possibly leave you short handed? +No that's a closed question. +Closed. +. Right, a good question. +A very good question. +Could it leave you short handed? +Change it to an open question. +How do you manage when this person's out delivering the goods? +Hang on Justin. +Same question Paul +Yeah. +but what it means is, what's the difference? +Well, you've gotta . +That's right. +Or, you shut up +and I start talking, you'll find out more. +How do you manage? +Really? +God forbid! +How do you manage? +Touch wood. +Oh! +You don't say? +Honestly? +You've got that, you blow the problem up a bit. +Hang on in there now, you've found it! +Mm. +That's where you wanna be. +I don't care whether you can't work a rate out I don't care whether you know nothing about T N T, you've found a need. +Do you want some help? +You got to the close, do you want some help? +And they say +Well yes. +what are you offering? +You say, I'll tell ya. +I've got my, my +Oh yes. +. +Ah! +Yeah? +That's when you, you get your question. +You're in there. +Yeah. +Your +Oh Justin! +now you've gotta use those features and benefits to explain. +So you've gotta be thinking and know which features to pull out. +You don't have to say we are a multi-national company with a hundred, in among hundred and ninety countries, we have a sales, a fleet of three thousand in this country, you don't have to give them a list. +D'ya remember going through this and what did the fella say on the phone, can you remember? +You're too big for us. +Too big for me. +Too big for me. +You're too big for us. +Or +Yeah. +This is a, this a smaller regional office, you'll know that we have a local depot here in Lan , in Stockport. +wherever you are, if it's a local set-up. +Yeah? +And you relate the features in the right way to that appropriate package, that problem. +Yeah? +And in closing you simply say do you want to use us? +Shall we go ahead with it? +What other ways can you have to close a question, when you want, wanna get a green light? +You've presented your offers out +Can we get some ? +Get some help. +Shall we start, shall we start coming up? +Erm, shall we start, you might not even have to get the , shall we start it, the ball rolling then? +Mm. +What other ways can you ask them if they wanna get the +Would you like me to arrange an appointment? +Would you like me to, yes, maybe ha , if you ask a question and haven't established what? +You've gotta establish something else. +Just wanna to try, get them to try, try it. +Yeah. +Would you like to u , can you see yourself that service? +What d'ya wanna know now? +Where? +Quickly. +You can't wait, see how the a , it begs the other question? +When would like to start? +Would you like to start now or +good. +Mm. +I'm gonna have to let Carly have your go now? +Cos you've got to get two, you need to, you need to really close there don't you? +I'm gonna stop it there folks. +Have I given you something to be going on with? +You have, yes, thank you. +Thank you. +Very interesting that. +I'll be keeping this for the next few days with me looking after it. +No he, he said didn't want it. +Can we take +Yeah. +You better take, we're spending,we'll be, yeah, you can spend more time there. +Kath, what am I doing tomorrow? +What, what? +Stick up walls. +That,. +Come on then. +phone calls can we make? +Ah that's alright then? +Same as this. +Thanks Kathy. +Okay. +Thank you Kath. +I won't be here tomorrow. +See you soon. +Oh that's alright then. +Hopefully. +You'll tha , you'll, yes +So we can ring you up. +have a brilliant time. +Oh righto. +What I want you to do, I don't want to delay you because of your erm trains and I'd will have hate to be the ones that keep you any later, you have an +I know. +evaluation sheet +Yes. +and you have your agenda, will you fill it in and send it to me? +How shall we send it? +Right. +Which service would you +Internal. +like us +You +to use? +you do that +Three day. +Who is taking these +When did you want it? +through to the +Me. +Oh are you Justin? +Will you send me yours? +Okay. +Will the others fill them in now. +Oh! +Jenny, I need to get your +Can we fill them in tonight and +my bag out of the back. +give it in +Can you give me it tomorrow? +but give them in the morning cos we've got to come over in the morning haven't we? +Shall I give the keys to +Well what are you gonna do now then? +Are you gonna drop it down? +I'll go and +I dunno. +Cos I haven't thought. +Oh brilliant! +You're gonna stay. +You're gonna sit down and do them now. +I'll give the keys to you in a minute. +Have you got time to do it now? +No, cos we'll be going in a minute. +I'll do it tomorrow. +No you're se , you're sta staying +Said we've just gotta stay here. +to do them now. +Yeah but I thought we should get cracking in the car. +We can't really stay, you have to come in in the morning. +Yeah. +Danny , you're, you're getting your er, you're gonna wait for yours are you? +I've already done it now? +See you! +Nice meeting everybody. +. +Take care. +See you later . +No Carly, it's too late to do it now. +Yeah, hopefully. +I just got a message from . +See you later mate. +Would you fill that in now +See you later mate. +and then sleep on it? +Are you feeling alright my dear you look a bit? +See you back at the old sales office. +No I don't. +Yeah , you could say that. +No? +I don't feel in here. +Right, see you later then. +Cos I've been spectating +I know. +John never said. +You look a bit, I've lost you somewhere now. +Thanks a lot. +See you Mandy. +See ya. +See you Mandy. +Bye. +Give me a ring. +Yeah I'll find out. +Even if it's . +Cos I don't know your number, give me a ring between one and three. +Give you a, a chat to you. +Freephone number . +Ah! +Oh good! +Oh sorry darling. +Of course! +Of course! +See you Danny. +Bye Jenny. +Bye love. +, back to your car yes? +It's, Jenny +Yeah well we'll going anyway so +will you, be alright when you get to your car? +Yeah. +No stay here with me I'm gonna walk +No but she's got a phone in the car. +Take care ladies , look after yourselves. +Yeah and you Bill. +Yes well this is . +Best of luck Bill. +I hope to hear from you. +Get some . +Oh I see. +Yeah and you. +Oh I've got to see if Frank's changed. +Well no, you can do it first. +I dunno, but we haven't got any. +I need them. +Well in, twenty minutes. +Well yeah. +In twenty minutes? +So you'll be back here at quarter past four +Alright then. +and you finish the . +Okay then. +So you don't have to . +You know that would be better +Wo oh oh oh oh! +Yeah, I think she wants I'm trying +Oh that's better. +Don't worry. +Everything will be fine. +Alright. +Well I'll bring him back here. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well where are you going, are you not coming back then now? +Alright. +What, what room number are you in then? +One, twenty eight? +Yeah. +Right, I'll give you a ring when they +Well er, once I've had my dinner. +Cheers then. +See ya. +Ta ta. +See you later. +Yep. +Bye- bye. +Ta -ta. +I do get I mean it's come back +I think it's, it's down there +you might say it's with, with . +What's second, third and fourth? +Jenny I thought would ring . +See you later. +I'll see you back at the classroom round there +What room number are you in? +tomorrow morning +Okay. +then Bill? +Thanks very much. +My stomach's churning. +I'll see you when you come down tomorrow then. +If you'd like to go and get a cup of tea +No it's alright John. +from the canteen +Bye! +you can fill that in down there. +If you'd rather have a cold drink +We got a same day driver picking me up at five fo , five thirty outside the hotel. +Oh right. +Five? +Well you get off. +On same day service now? +Oh you're going same day are ya? +Yeah they said erm +Can we see +Said it could be better +I'll get it. +Don't worry. +Use my cell phone. +Can we cube ya? +I think this is a telephone shall I tell +No I think Mandy's in the area. +phone, does anybody know how I'm gonna get one? +Hello . +Where's Jenny now? +She's gone down to pay for the, get something out of the boot outside. +And help me do . +Oh has she? +A fiver. +Oh, you're a hard women, och I'll buy you . +David's getting them in. +What? +Or thre er Terry. +What? +Are you getting a lift with Justin? +No I just said. +No. +Er Justin +I want erm my and my bag. +No Jenny's coming back, I think. +Justin's not coming back. +I think +Justin +he's taking, has Jenny? +Jus , er Justin's gotta come back in +I know. +a minute. +Jenny's come back in a couple of minutes. +Justin's not coming back. +Well +Yes. +he's gotta come back +Yes. +hand his folder in. +I said +Yeah? +that to him. +Do you wanna go and get yourself a cold drink? +Oh oh. +The girls in the canteen want to lock up and go home. +It's alright cos Jenny, Jenny'll be back. +Shall we do our +We're getting +Well so +picked up. +Complete this up here. +No, no, my bag has +Then you come back here. +Alright. +Go and get yourself a +And if I don't see her , you can wait another twenty minutes. +Alright. +go and get yourself a cold drink and bring it back up here. +? +Yeah. +I dunno if she's coming back. +That's a closed question. +Ah! +Mind you, well that is. +Shut the door +go and get yourself a cold drink and come back and . +The only ones I'll let go are Carly and Bill, they've gotta catch a plane, er train, and Justin's got to come back before he heads back to the hotel . +But while you're here leave it covered like this and it's a bit. + +Oh Jesus Chri ! +Jean! +What? +Here's your breakfast, come on! +Come on get up! +It's after nine, it must be about twenty past to half nine here's your breakfast cu Christ get out the way, get out! +Bloody dog! +Jean! +I got you cornflakes toast I didn't do an egg you've had enough was round there left another tape tape recorder. +What +She'll be round on f excuse me! +She'll be round on Friday afternoon or Saturday some time I said we'd be here from four o'clock on Friday so I'll take it down to John's today then it's away to work I've got the rubbish in the bins right? +Raymond took money out of your money, got cigarettes and a paper and the house is tidy so I'll get the twenty past ten bus later. +Have you no matches? +She was saying that the shop she was in was selling the turkeys that we got, for three ninety nine I think it was a supermarket or somewhere was selling them +Three ninety nine? +No three fifty. +Aha. +Patch! +Stop that! +Fucking lighter! +Have you got a light Jean? +You should of bought pe oh there's some petrol under the sink I put paint thin thinners in this you know, stripper? +What for? +I thought it would of blown or lit. +And this fucking Patch, get into the house! +Get in! +And stay there! +Sit! +There was a fella shot dead last night in sp er Don . +Do you remember the bar we went into that night with Sally and Perry? +Remember the Saturday night over in east east Belfast? +Yes. +Erm and er and that Audrey or Aubrey and and nobody knew well he ran that bar. +He was the manager of that bar. +They U D A according to the T V. +What ? +Well they're keeping an open mind about it yeah but skin you I suppose he his,I have all . +Jean I'd fucking do it to you! +No but +I know, why? +Raymond +I mean +won't speak to you if you +You've been in bed for eight o'clock last night it's now nine what's that, thirteen odd hours? +Ask me the time I was up at? +You could lie in actually. +No no , no no no no no, ask me what time I was up at? +What time were you up at? +Half five this morning letting the dogs out in the back so I said to hell with it, I'm not going to bed again! +You won't lie in when you can't +Well I slept all night Jean. +You know what I had this morning for my breakfast? +Ha! +One, two one, two, three, four four seven oat cakes! +You know the triangle shaped ones ever whatever? +Seven of those. +You +So I ate a whole packet all of them! +Ha! +Ha ha ha! +Look at them cornflakes. +then Jean, you'll need proper su so you'll need sunglasses. +Window open? +No. +Does the li does the light not hurt your eye ! +Do you want the fan on? +England, Scotland and Wales and er showers here. +Lovely weather +Lovely weather for ducks! +What was wrong with erm the cassette thing? +Ah, they thought it was the cleaning head. +What? +Apparently they thought it was the cleaning heads by the, the heads of it, I don't know, I know nothing about it. +Well according to counter, that's still going. +gonna get a couple of he ah ah tapes that we had ruined of our own I said no. +So she took the first lot back you know, the two boxes +Aha. +and gave us a another two boxes. +Ha! +What'd she take the tapes back for? +No she bought a second lo a second twenty lot of twenty and I give her the first lot back probably. +I know but she was nothing to with the tapes it was +No well she just, just to say they're not starting to count again. +Oh. +So I've now got from Monday, twenty. +And each lasts approximately forty five minutes. +So if I take one down today no I'd need a couple wouldn't I? +Mhm. +Well I'm taking four anyway to see what happens and the booklet. +God bless. +Well what booklet? +You have to put a book in first, that I was first to speak this morning, you were second and then it'll be either Kelly Ann or Stephen next. +Ooh yes. +But I don't put yo I don't put every time they speak, put your names in once on each page is enough. +Oh I see. +So if I start another tape I think I've to put their names in first right. +Cos the listener will be able to tell who is speaking. +Oh. +Raymond said he was sick this morning. +Was he? +Mhm I said oh he was sick last night and sick this morning. +Some sort of +What ? +well he said it was like green bile! +Wasn't that a cle a they were pouring in th in the +on the bucket? +Aha. +Oh that'll be, well have the both of them then except my underwear and socks What do you want done, before I go out? +Nothing. +Well I've gotta get shaved and ba you know those dark blue trousers? +Mhm. +to leave them in the cleaners? +We'll see. +Get them out for Easter I mean white lines up the seams +Pass the please? +Where's the bi +Oh +Eh. +Enjoy that breakfast. +I did, it was lovely thank you. +Do you eat all the toast? +You mean all the toast? +There was never any! +Sorry, what am I eat all the toast! +I think I'll put on a jumper today, or a pullover it'll be cold coming out of John's tonight. +You'll have to do your own boots +What boots? +You remember the snow boots we had. +Not at all. +You know when you put those boots on and the string rather because they they are what they they look like with the they're called boots. +.Ha! +Wha what date is today? +Twelfth. +right. +What are you gonna ? +Rita returns home in Coronation Street er +Is that all it says? +The Golden Girls on for half an hour. +Is that all it says, Rita returns home? +Yes. +Er all else on! +Oh This is your Life you like that. +Oh . +I missed the last Friday night. +There you are there's an article on Easter eggs right Cadbury's Buttons the verdict of that is very, a good design, reasonably good value cost per hundred grams is eighty seven point five P. +Cadbury's Roses verdict neat box but too much packaging and they cost a hundred and one P for a hundred grams. +Cadbury's Creme Eggs over large box too much packaging hundred grams, they cost a hundred and nine. +Rowntree's Rolo verdict clever use of packaging good value cost per hundred grams eighty eighty P. +Rowntree's Smarties verdict small box and packaging kept to a minimum, good value eighty three pence per hundred grams! +And Quality Street Egg verdict, the box makes the eggs appear much larger than it actually is cost, a hundred gram, ninety nine . +So the cheapest is Buttons +The Rowntree's, no Christ, you're not listening! +Rowntree's Smarties is eighty three Cadbury's button is eighty seven point five and then Rowntree's Rolo is eighty eight the dearest is a hundred and nine P for the Cadbury's Creme Eggs. +Oh I see. +And it cost two pound thirty five for a hundred and thirty six gram egg and two forty gram Creme Eggs. +No , couple of draws . +People prefer a couple of big bars o +True. +Cadbury's Cadbury's Milk Tray. +Well that Galaxy is lovely and creamy. +The what? +Galaxy. +Cos you're paying actually for the boxes, it says. +Her +Best place for him Jean! +No place for a dull ! +What would you like for your tea? +It's not a matter what I would like Jean, it's what the hell is in! +I would like a soda baking soda! +Mm? +It doesn't matter. +teacher admitted fifty three victims . +Admitted to what? +Hurting fifty three victims! +He's a mild mannered grandfather who accused of murdering thirty five children and eighteen young woman across the country over twelve years. +Oh +The youngest was a boy of eigh eight the of twenty two . +Must of been . +Christ, an innocent man earlier on was forced to co confess was, was e was executed for some of the killings that he did! +Another committed suicide while waiting trial. +My God! +The victims, many of them homeless, were blinded and torn apart in a frenzy of violence. +He enticed them with a promise of dinner and a chance to watch his video. +How awful! +As soon as they saw a lonely person, they had to drag him off to the woods Jesus Christ! +Here's the son of Kirk Douglas has been jailed for five days after kicking a policeman! +They say he's a pig's ear queer! +He's not! +Film stars get away with everything! +Well he didn't, he's in he's inside for five well days anyway. +Five days +You know your woman that started all the controversy about the eggs? +Edwina Currie. +Yes. +She was offered a job in the government and she turned it down! +Oh +It says because her boss would of been Kenneth Clarke is it? +And er apparent eh Kenneth Clarke, apparently they don't get on. +I've promised Shirley +Yeah. +Your man at what? +That's another man. +Who was? +Thomas . +Oh the big fella from Saudi Air? +Mm. +And what about him? +And he says hello Jean,all about you and he says, is this for you love, and I says yes and I said +Well you should of told him you were fucking burning the place! +Why? +I said about to see him and I says no, he says I should of kept the houses and just done the lot. +Good grief, how could you! +Well we're living like fucking ants two up and two down, outside bogs! +Jesus Christ! +It's alright for some ah! +No wonder you're trying to +Ah but he means put a bath in a bathroom in, the way you know they did up the Donegal Road. +What and you've no back yard! +No space for hanging clothes, no space for walking! +I certainly I ha +He says your when a ambulance comes for people who are sick they have the and there'll be somebody who maybe really seriously ill by the time tha that they ask where to get to such and such a place by the time they're there sometimes the people dead! +ever should be er measured by the street map of the city of Belfast +for all the cost it's not such a big place anyway. +Excuse me! +I'd of get lost in Sandy Road +Mm. +now. +I did. +Well like Christie's Manor had to show me out of it her and her her daughter! +There you are. +Cos she said to me she said Christ thirty years in Sandy Road you get lost in it! +It +Andrew was talking about Da and +Dotty . +and he said +Councillor Albert . +aha and he says I've been to the nice wee man he says he remembers ah going round all the houses looking for somebody to do in Apple Street and he went and told what's his name? +Dotty did? +Aha he went told, what do you call him? +The, the first house in Street, beside the shop? +what Diddy's friends? +No that's Boyle Street +What Street? +Scumbergh Street +Oh yes, directly beside the old house? +No aside the wee shop at the corner of Street. +Oh yes, Hannah. +Hannah +Oh yeah. +and she says no, go down and get Edith and er +Edy ? +Aha and he done caretaker for years +Mhm. +for her. +Sunday School and +I remember coming in here. +I says cos I said that fellow I says my husband's mother for years I says, in fact and old photographs in the house we have of and his wife and a whole crowd . +have you? +And I says to I says erm +It was hell fire and those preachers none of your high church there! +Paisley and Ian Paisley . +Well that was after Albert giving out +Yes. +load of shit ! +Aye cos I remember +and the big . +He was a little rogue! +Who? +Albert . +God forgive you ! +He was , he stole the fucking ey ornaments out of instruments out of the Salvation Army saw them in his house one day, up in the loft and there was enough musical instruments to start up twenty bands! +Accordions, trumpets a bugles, everything! +Well everybody +His daughter was a nice she was a nice she was home a couple of times, I met her. +Very pleasant, awfully polite, but very pleasant She used some of those jars ah? +She used, used jump it we could put them on her cupboards, you know, make her something a bit bigger, they're gonna get that off there. +And sh what's in those coloured bags there? +John's stuff . +That well that's the third for him . +Does he? +Aye. +I says, and I says +Buck. +Was she out today then? +She was out yesterday about oh sorry, he's querying the arrears, he said he wasn't there for what, two months? +Aha. +Which he wasn't,and true, he was living with me. +She wants to know where she's living I said, oh I know where she's living she's in she's now got a property down in I says and I, I be honest er ooh she said to me, yeah sorry oh who are you? +Are you his father? +I says no I'm his brother-in-law but I know all his details and I said, he wasn't here! +And no matter how little re rebate he gets it'll be a help to him, why should he pay for something he didn't get? +Alright? +Then I said, have you got him a house yet? +And she says it's strange, but there's no movement in the Conway Estate there's usually a good turnover of people who're moving in and out. +Wait a minute it's no good there is no movement. +There usually is a, a, a, vacant houses but at the minute it's at a standstill. +Right so that means if there's nobody moving out, John can't move in? +He neither filling another form, I says well I'll fill it in tonight for him he'll sign it and if I post it tonight you'll probably get it tomorrow. +I won't be in the office she says until er May the fifth and nobody else will deal with it so there you are. +This is what, April the what, the fifteenth, the sixteenth? +What is it? +About three weeks. +Yeah, well there you are. +Yesterday was the fourteenth, it is the fifteenth. +What? +What did he put down? +He didn't, he didn't fill it in. +Ah he says, what about talking money? +But he doesn't want to talk money he's hoping to get that bitch to come back and live with him and she doesn't like us! +Well you can't blame her. +Jean, we don't even have see them you know what I mean? +He doesn't have to pass our door to get the bus stop, he doesn't have to pass our door to get to the schools +or the children. +He doesn't have to pass this way to go to the shops. +It's +It will be handy for me though. +I can't see her coming back really I mean she might come back for +Well Christ well what did you get yesterday you found her clothes, her trousers and her knickers! +She must have been staying there at the weekend! +She might stay for a a weekend or something, but I mean erm +Aye get her end away he's, he's no scruples! +Here, put these clothes away. +He hasn't +Did you phone Kate? +No, I haven't. +No, well phone her see how she is. +Now if she says why we were not here or say say she tells you she called on Saturday and we were out just say to her Raymond was drinking stout! +Fuck her I was drinking stout on Saturday night and normally don't do it because we've simply no money!on the vodka and say it wasn't even enough to buy a carry out but don't say it unless she says she was here! +Oh can't see her coming for Saturday night. +No. +She was here on Friday night. +She mentioned the silver teapot to John. +I said to him we made her a cup of coffee out of a teapot that was bought and she says she was talking about it. +I didn't want John thinking that I said he would get her one. +No, +There's toilet rolls in there . +In that top one? +Aha. +Can you not put them in the bottom of the cupboard and get rid of that bag? +Jean, that's what drawers are for!everything, look at that dir lo look at that now! +I can take some down and put them in the cupboard. +Are you sure Jean there's not a box of soap in there? +Aha. +There is. +What? +No it's not the soap in that box is lying down in the coal hole. +What? +The soap out of the box is lying in the coal hole, the empty box is in the bin. +Okay. +Hey listen you see these er the stuff you have in that cupboard there, the hot press. +Aha. +Now, you'll have to go through it right? +There's no use in keeping things that you're not gonna use okay? +Now you, if you get rid of a lot of, of a lot of the rubbish right? +Do you realize how quickly your clothes would dry in there in the hot press? +All of them. +No serious, in summer, it's alright now good wind blow you can get the clothes dried in a reasonable time but in the winter you can't +I know. +right? +They would even dry quicker than if you put them over the clothes horse cos that's what those slats are for. +There's no use keeping things you don't need Jean, and you don't know anybody that needs them! +John never mind him! +If he gets a house he'll need curtains, putting his curtains up. +Ha for God's sake Jean if she's gonna move back with him she'll not want your stuff! +That's why she won't move back in with him, cos she says there's too much stuff there reminds him reminds her of her his ma or your ma. +I think she was glad to take it all mine. +at the time Jean. +I don't want to ge to get involved, but you just can't help and I don't want any of this shit out! +Now watch this +And from what I've heard about her she's always her mouth now! +There oh Christ! +Remember me at the weekend to look I think it's only fuse right? +Now if it's only a fuse like mine I'll get him one and we'll be able to get the computer back down cos er the like right? +Now these Easter eggs, I hope nobody's touching them! +This table here what're you gonna do with it? +I was thinking of putting it in there on Saturday, +Right then we'll have to move that bed a bit. +Oh yeah. +You'll have to get those books out the corner, you get up get up get washed and get dressed and we'll do it now please? +Come on! +Do you feel any better this morning? +You were like something hanging over the edge of a nest last night! +You didn't know whether you were coming or going! +Alright. +Well, you get those boys to help you today. +They're +I'm fri I, I don't care Jean, no argument! +If I'm not here you're in charge and that's it! +You're asking them to +Right now what do I do? +This way now I lift this side, that'll be it, can you lift that? +Don't strain yourself when I lift, you lift Jean, put your hand under there! +There right, now is that better? +No sweet wrappings. +That's a good idea. +them on there. +though is it? +Would you not be better throwing some of , you've read them? +You put the alarm clock onto the bed alright now let me see will it go in? +Ah, I dare say there in that corner like that by the side of the now where are we putting these egg boxes away ? +Can you make a space over there? +I don't want Is that the bigger box? +Have you decided yet, who's getting what?get going, where are all these going then? +Over there. +Oh. +for Jean next +Yeah. +Mother's Day you're, we're all still here I said wear this and I'm sorry but +Well I shan't bother with +for them! +I know, I know that love. +I can hardly say ! +You know that I would do it properly for if I had to. +Yes. +Now +don't go making this into your Jean okay? +Yeah. +You don't need that! +and you don't need that rather here I think these are all Melissa's books. +Oh no they're not. +I think it I think they're thickies and they'll wanna read something else! +Have you had been in to see +have you been in to see Mrs ? +I stopped +Which ? +Er do you know Denise and Dave? +Aye. +Well some relation of hers was knocked down over there. +Over there a across the street here? +No, round the corner. +Right. +And he was talking to Thomas +Thomas who? +Thomas +Oh yes. +Why did he knock them down? +No. +What +Just to tell you about Ben and he's happily church . +Oh yes, that's right oh still religious is he? +Aye +And a how's the chest, serious? +Paul who? +Paul +Oh next door. +called her name and +Well as long as she's okay. +She's on a wee bend, and she down the alley there +Mm. +laid out on the road! +God help her! +Oh the usual bicycle. +He's not ours +And I'm . +Oh I took our books down to the library today and there's two in three of got don't let them use my razor Jean! +They were shearing sheep with it! +There's another five million things for the Jean! +Do you remember that black stone ring? +Aha. +That Johnny had is it still here? +No +I think it's time Jean oh no that's mine don't let anybody touch that! +If it's yours then +What's that there, that's a good'un it's not as not as heavy as I, feel the weight of that you feel that. +Oh yeah. +Feel the weight go on. +Now we've got a buyer for that one at home well two for pound help to buy you a bed. +Kelly Ann the other day wanted to know where my where was the ring you got married in Raymond? +No ! +Yeah she said Aunt Jean tried to get me to work, but no! +And why not? +There's an Irish pound coin you'd get about ninety odd ninety odd P for that. +Right now that's slightly better. +Another thing Jean you can get the boys today is to clear their drawers out if there's that they don't would you bring the plate down if there's clothes +Are you going to ? +If there's clothes that what am I gonna , if there's clothes they don't want Jean into the bin! +There's no use giving them away cos they're rags! +When does Soggy go away again? +A fortnight? +Jean? +If I hear any more talk about Soggy, what would you been doing if you were ? +And how do you clean these boots properly? +I don't know. +I don't know if he's gonna start it again, but I stopped him bloody ! +This is what I was thinking of throwing out Jean. +What? +Do you know those articles John got you? +The wee plates? +Why? +Well we never use them and I've another reason for wanting rid of them. +Ah ah ah! +Hiya Kylie, Hiya Paul! +hello. +Nice innit? +Beautiful! +Beautiful! +Aha? +and they never even +You run eight miles? +Aha. +Jesus Christ! +Where's my ? +You sick in the head or something? +No I just +Where do you run? +Whe o path turn er +What do you want? +Do you hear a +Jean. +music? +Don't hear music. +up all the way along and er you come out along the road all the way up past +Aye. +is it Thomas? +Thomas Thomas . +Park down there go round to up back around the Road +That's heavy! +come down. +Jesus! +Where's your puppy? +It's in the house sleeping. +Locked you out again? +Got too pissed or something! +Yeah, better you than me! +Ah it's sweet enough, I saw you coming in with a black one. +Aye. +Raymond was here and I was going out with her +Aha. +and the big dog hates her going out and I have to be on my own. +Right. +Brought her her in and you know wee Gavin? +Yes. +got us wading through +Aha. +the fight happened he got out +Aha. +and he was fucking jumping about the +I only got to hear him start talking to your Raymond +Aye. +and he was going nuts! +He was going nuts! +And did you take him in? +No I ended up putting them in the box Joan had him out yesterday. +Dad! +Yeah. +It's her I want to get ready for Saturday, for this championship show. +Oh aye. +Has he not been to,a lot of +Aha. +Daddy! +What a way of starting! +He she should do well. +I hope she does love. +But she's in she's in for the championship, and then there's a president's club +Aha. +can have a good win in er ninety one so +Yes. +in our breed shows +Yeah. +and she got best puppies that's her reward. +Lovely. +So we'll put her in for it I mean with her form break it down, I hope they ask her to you know? +Aha. +The other was sitting on our wall. +Hello lovely! +On your way t on your way to Disneyland? +Right Paul. +Ta. +Oh wrong book! +Nearly the end. +Well there's one tape completed Jean oh it's only the side of one. +Right. +We this the first side of the +Right. +first tape. +Well paint thinners or white spirits doesn't light as well as petrol in these lighters ! +What? +I saw one on top of the bed I don't know where I put the other one It's down here Jean. +God! +Have you tried under the bed Jean? +What? +But Is it under the bed? +No it's not. +Well have you looked? +Where did you get that one? +Beside the bed. +Well I put one on top of the bed! +But I don't know what I did with it. +Jean. +What? +I was talking about Paul there. +Why? +He says last night and never took or anything. +Well that's what I thought, but anyway! +They're putting shorts on him! +There's your slipper there for fu You finished in the bathroom? +I need a dump. +Well won't no more, so no problem. +Ha! +That's one thing running at your own speed! +Ah Jean! +I was reading in a book the other day that if you get a bicarbonate of sodas, that's baking soda. +Thanks. +And it takes the stains out of no, can it not get paint stains? +Right, where's this morning's paper and I go to the bogs? +I shouldn't be here I should be away on the bus. +Oh God! +Oh! +then? +Ah no Heather I'll throw them down there you'll have to get lighted the fire try and some right . +Twenty Barclay please, and a box of Swan? +Swan. +Three six. +How much is that? +How much? +Three six. +Is there any more in there oh no that's right there. +Packet of those Duracell exactly! +One or two? +One. +They all come ready packed believe it or not! +Oh no, no that's more than reasonable good day, thank you! +Cuts where? +There. +In your gums? +No just on my lips. +Oh ca that's only where they had to be you put the wee rubber mouthpiece in you see to keep your mouth open so that's easy to open your mouth, sometimes people clamp their mouths closed and then they can't get their teeth out. +Right have you got your tickets? +Er +Lift that book. +Right you gonna carry that for me? +Yeah. +You don't mind? +No. +Now, are your tickets down in the ? +Yes we know, we always leave our tickets we don't lost them. +Right. +Ooh ! +So they know who you are. +Okay. +We always keep them cos it's they can get you off +Right. +properly. +Well let's go. +Right Kelly Ann! +Is Robert B, R B R O B B I T ? +Say it again? +Is Robert R O B B I T ? +No! +What is it? +For Stephen. +R O B E R T . +R O B E R T. +R O B E R T. +R O B E R T . +Robert. +Choo choo choo choo, choo choo . +Look, at er Stephen. +What's that you say? +Simon don't know why she left. +My friends are talking +Ah! +What are saying? +Go ahead. +Mhm. +Oh very good! +Very, very good that is! +Black okay? +Er, I would do those er black wait a minute! +Black, black black, black, black, yes. +But dar light green, or like dark green? +Oh green. +Just er oh a light green. +Okay. +Have you go oh here we are. +Oh no no . +What? +Those can be . +You don't have to do +Oh! +They're +I would do I would put it up there. +I mean, what have we got there, that's all. +Erm I would do it straight. +Do you know a scribble and a a . +Do you know that one? +A scribble? +I don't know. +What is it? +Is it +Aye. +I put that down there. +Scribble. +I think it is a +You usually have them first. +Pardon? +I haven't. +I can put this one down there. +There! +That's a scribble. +You can make it yourself. +Scribble. +Was it the ? +I think so. +Say anything. +Which one of the ? +I only wish it were a new one. +What are all those different colours for? +Well it's blue. +Mm. +Doo be doo doo . +You'll have to put it in and make one giant one together. +If you say so. +Do you think so? +Everybody usually is. +Yeah. +I know. +I've finished everything. +Now we can +Very good! +Very, very good! +I like that! +You see +People +you see the rifles? +Aha. +You see these there? +Yeah. +Now, now not not that part there at the bottom. +That's where the +But you see that there +is. +brown +Yes. +cos that was wood, and that was wood, that was wood, that was wood, and that was wood. +So it's dark, no what am I saying! +Er that there's brown. +See that part? +The +Mm. +or the butt +Right. +and they would be +Black? +er, no well er, let's see have you a dark grey? +No? +No. +I have no grey. +Only a pencil. +Only a pencil. +No! +Well let's see . +What about +And that part there would be brown, up to there. +Up there. +Do that part first, brown, to see what it's like. +And that part with, and do that black, yeah. +But leave those wee rings out. +Aye. +What will I do there ? +The bayonet? +Ah. +Let me see. +On the bits just here. +Do do do that oh let me see. +Well I've done that grey and I've done the, and do the +Aha. +Hold on a minute. +pull grey? +Now, hold on a minute. +Well do that part brown first, and that part brown up to there. +There. +And do, aye, you do, they've got the rest of it grey, yes. +That's brown, dark brown there and that there's +What about that? +grey. +What about the handle, the handle bit? +All there? +That there? +Aha. +No, don't worry about that in the meantime. +That black on, which ? +Let me see. +Very good! +Yes. +That's also very good. +See I'm doing this grey for erm in there make it +Well +all muddy. +well, that's okay. +Now, what kind of an address is that?? +Erm it's only coming from this way. +What? +There. +No, but you put Donegall before road. +It's D O N G A L L ? +It's D O N E G A L L , Donegall. +D O A ? +D O , what? +D O A ? +Stephen, how long have you lived here? +Erm, two years. +It's, you've lived, er you lived in the , all your day! +It's D O N E G A L L . +We haven't . +Mm. +Oh Raymond I've done the butt black cos we're weapon. +And the same? +Oh I done the pull. +Well that's okay. +That's good! +Right. +Now what do we do? +What does it say you have to do? +The castle. +beneath the castle fort. +Alright. +You might have to wait for . +Okay. +What's that there for? +A skeleton. +See, and I've just made out of the stomach. +Mhm. +Did the do +How? +Didn't you watch all the time? +Do you watch all the time? +No. +Because you know Patrick just scribbles? +Mhm. +Does he? +What are you gonna put in this? +Yes. +Mhm. +Where's the, where's the brown? +What? +But Raymond +What? +. +It's that policewoman! +We will be hearing about Armagh. +Mhm. +About what a good time it is now. +Right. +And . +Do you want to have with me? +Mm. +Are you doing County Armagh? +No, I'm doing Belfast. +So gonna have your as well. +Oh well, it is a bit. +We're gonna have a nice one. +Oh are you? +Where's the paint gone? +Okay. +Give it to you for fifty P. +This is the best one . +Want one? +No. +How long is the stretcher? +I was gonna do it. +You could do, could do the people li like that. +Mm. +chocolate. +Mhm. +Erm, when he first came out +Do you want something to eat? +No. +You just wanna watch a movie all the time. +What do yous wanna eat? +Nothing. +Nothing. +Nothing? +You're tired. +Night. +Watch the rest of this. +I'm easy. +It's up to yourselves if you don't wanna eat. +I'll not force yous. +So make up your mind kiddies. +Christ that was on the way! +Yeah. +I don't know what happened to it. +Stephen is that fire alright? +Yeah, I've just got it going granddad. +Right. +Not that. +Sara! +Stop barking! +Get into the back! +Sara! +Sara! +Stop that growling neither! +What? +Maybe there's something in that +There's something, what? +No. +They want to hang on or something. +Erm what's that? +What you doing? +Putting on my shoe. +I'm going to Martin's. +If you're going out to play in that street, it's cold! +I know. +Take you're er +I'm just taking a coat outside. +It's raining. +Ooh! +What? +I know you wouldn't. +If you ruin the I gave you you're already in the ambulance ! +Oh Jesus! +I wouldn't wear it! +Just take your turn, you see . +You're going it alone. +Did you like that story I told you today? +Aye. +I did. +Ee ee! +Hee ooh ho ooh ooh! +Get it off! +Mind you them! +You won't get my stuff I gave you! +You look more like a ! +And really funny ! +Oh yeah, imagine she showed you your mum . +Did you not get the sack? +No. +Poor Robert! +How, how do you get the sack? +Did you get the sack or did you just pack it in? +No I got another job. +Packed it in. +What was your other job like? +Gave me a lift. +Gave you a lift ! +And then I, and then I started a to work for an asphalt company. +What did you do there? +Clerk. +What's that? +Office worker. +Oh! +You mean that was like funny and working and that ? +No. +It was down at the harbour in Belfast. +And what did you do? +Plenty of rocks. +And did someone give you a sandwich and you and you put it back ! +Oh no, no, I was more careful about sandwiches. +No, what about the job? +Have you got a, like a hair hair in your office ! +What did you say ? +And he gave you a job going . +How would you him? +What? +The , the one that's to erm get the job ? +I dare I see him. +I would dare I see him. +I would honestly. +Sure it's more and get them brand new +No. +from Craigar Port +No, no , no! +I would like to say, or write to him to apologize to her but she's probably dead. +What now? +I dunno. +She was sh Kelly, get a shovel of coal on. +She was er maybe in her early fifties then and oh sure that was er nineteen oh eighty five, eighty five, +Whereabouts is the coal? +ninety five. +Thirty, thirty odd years ago. +Thirty nine years ago. +Fifty, sixty, seventy, oh she might be still living. +You go ahead. +You can put everything on the back. +Now you put the fire out the las so set it all nice and easy. +No, now that's throwing it on! +You set the shovel on top of the coal that's already there and tilt it and slide the other coal onto it. +Oh! +Stephen. +Now put that light that fire again with . +dangerous apart from that thing it is dangerous. +Don't you's ever try it. +Right. +Set that on easy now. +Set it down in the fire. +That's right. +Now slide it. +Slide it down in that . +On you go. +What about that. +I'll teach you something yet. +There's the two the pieces of coal on the shovel. +Put that on, now that's it. +Aye. +Have you seen what the they did ? +Oh aye. +You did? +Oh aye. +Alright, +Okay, I'm joking! +Right, what was it? +One of the +Me ee! +Do you know that, her brother +What? +in that series? +He used to be in +Neighbours. +Neighbours. +Yeah, Mike. +He still can't act! +Get out of there! +Steve,. +Why do you have to shout at your dog? +Did you tape record it ? +Is he sick? +Why? +You see the way his eyes are red or going pretty dull he needs wormed. +And what, why ? +He needs worming tablets! +There's worms in him! +He's had them. +Mm? +He's had them. +Didn't give him enough. +Apparently when their eyes go dull it's they need wormed. +Wormed, you need! +Look at mine. +Worms! +Need worms Sara. +Look at Kelly Ann's hers are black. +And I'm the undertaker. +up the bum! +And I +Can't talk now please! +Do you like her? +Yeah, she's alright. +Where? +He's shouting for her. +We were down in the bar, up the club on Saturday night your Aunt Jean and Raymond and I and this fella beside us was drunk and he put his arm round this woman's neck, you know the thing, what about ? +And he hit her, sort of a, you know, a slap in the back but her glasses were loose they fell hit the steel base of the table crack! +What happened then ? +Her glasses fell off her head and hit the metal base of the table and smashed in two. +I think I told you. +There was something argument afterwards! +Where you going Kelly Ann? +I'm just going to get Martin. +You're not cold now? +You not need a coat on? +Just for the +Do you know you've been off school from what? +Last Friday? +Yeah. +And you've been out one day. +Yeah. +Were you out on Sunday? +Or Saturday? +He's lovely! +I hadn't seen him before. +Were you not with er your mate what do you call +Yes. +her? +Lynn? +her boyfriend went down. +Oh the boyfriend's ba ? +Oh she's got +And +a boyfriend? +I'm not gonna know him. +What about wee James who give you the wo ring? +Albert's gonna kill you! +We should deal with your daddy when he's drunk. +Throw the towel over him and left him. +We could have left daddy. +You could drag him into the den. +I don't like him now. +In the black jumper. +Blake. +Is that what you call him? +Blake. +Jerk you should call him! +Oh shut up! +Ha! +Ha! +Get that dog in the back. +Go on get into the back Sarah you fucking rotten! +Get into the back! +Get them in the ba , get her in the back! +Jesus Christ I would kill you! +That's scandalous, that! +There's something wrong with that dog. +It's probably got cancer +or something. +. +Oh Chri something's crawled up it and died! +Now keep it in there! +Any Penguins left, no? +No. +That's eight, yeah. +There. +Right, B. +What time is it? +Six twenty. +Five thirty five. +It's the fifteenth of the fourth ninety two. +Five thirty five P M. +Belfast. +So that's right. +T V. +T V there. +T V show. +B B C. +Now oh Jesus! +So aha, and +Why did you look at ? +seven P L,. +What you whispering for? +Kelly? +What? +What are you whispering for? +Nothing. +No you're not. +It's quite good! +What's wrong? +My picture's in there. +What picture? +Oh, what, what book is it? +Don't know. +Found the picture. +I haven't bought all these things. +Oh! +was born on that. +He was born where? +Orville Wright. +Who? +Watch +Wright. +her! +You're gonna hurt her! +No! +Ah! +Now you'll did he hurt your leg? +No, my middles. +Crunched it, so I did. +Are there any biscuits left at all? +No. +No. +Is there a Digestive? +Get us one. +No, get us two. +I'm feeling greedy. +Shall I get four, yeah? +Don't forget, I won't be home by about eight o'clock tonight. +Ha? +But why? +I think you'll just have stay in! +What about soup or ? +No, I don't like anything in that cupboard. +All the rest are soup,. +And a handful of baking soda, tonight ask your Aunt Jean to make it lovely. +Do you reckon she'll get in there? +No. +That's for your daddy. +I want yous to be quiet, I wanna hear the news. +Please. +I will be +Here, he's back again. +Ah, don't do that to your daddy's, give us that. +Cos your daddy needs that soda bread. +Don't tempt me. +Go on! +Ah don't! +Don't! +You ooh! +! +Come on wrap it up for you daddy. +Wrap it up! +urgh! +Wrap it up ! +Ah. +Oh and we're just not hungry. +We're +Ah. +very deaf and it's too late ! +Ho! +What about this? +She wore a red cloak. +Yeah ! +Me and daddy playing shoot. +Whoop! +Boing! +You're supposed to +You're boing! +Yeah! +Boing! +But they're bound to . +Why? +Ah ! +Ah! +You stuck? +Watch your tape. +Watch it now. +Aye, do you need them? +Yeah. +What? +What? +Ah, come on!, take them off! +No. +The bird he wants a biscuit . +How about yours then? +That's what I tell you ! +What . +I play with you. +Oh a nice little yeah. +Did you have one! +No. +Come on! +How many? +Oh no you don't get any. +The them bottles are stinking! +I know. +They're rotten! +What? +Oh they're like they're not good for water! +Don't do anything to me! +I could hear the ! +Well you were hungry a way down there but you would make good child. +. +Oh oh oh! +Oh oh oh! +Oh oh oh! +Oh I thought was it . +I want those. +Just take it. +Oh! +Let go of it! +Oh no! +Let go of it! +Jes that began with an +Oh! +Okay then. +Those are very unhappy. +People like me +Well he's good. +and he says he's skinny! +I can't let you in. +Ah, but he's solid. +Get off! +I'm begging you ! +Be quiet! +Now hear this! +Raymond. +Mm. +See when your friend, that's the jam, and bread, and butter all over him. +Do you ever,cu cos you could call him. +Bread, butter, jam man! +Stephen! +You know me Mr and all these phone numbers. +They should call him jammy man. +Raymond and the jam man. +Here, put that in the er sink please? +I'll wash it in a minute. +Thank you. +You tape recording everything? +He's taping everything ! +I have to. +Yes. +Ooh miaow! +You watch what your daddy say there. +Remem remember what daddy said about that +What daddy said about the road. +main road. +Are you going to , dee dee dee dee . +And Mrs comes out the +I will not have that. +It's +It's so when are we going out? +How did the big dog get out? +I'm not . +You can get , you know. +Erm +He's going to help me out +No! +She'll be round the back. +Oh Raymond. +It's still Ra Raymond's dog just now. +Did it? +Ho ho! +It's not very well. +No. +What was she doing? +Ha ha! +Jesus! +That's going to take a long time. +Oh! +You didn't know that anyone was there . +You're getting tall Kelly Ann. +You are indeed. +Get him off ! +One of these days you'll lead me across the road. +You're the you're erm you're the lollipop man ! +Then I'll be going +Yeah, it's lovely ! +Look at that lava, look! +I know. +They're trying to stop it. +Wouldn't like to put your foot in that. +What? +It'll burn your feet off! +You could cook a chicken in that in about three seconds! +Yeah! +You could ! +Why don't we have +Lift it out. +No, you wouldn't even have bones le you wouldn't even have bones left! +Look! +There's a house destroyed with it. +Dear! +Dear! +Some people have asked me, Kelly, you've got a ! +They're trapped. +I wouldn't sit there. +Why, well Raymond +What? +just say you're sitting there and the lava all just comes down. +Jesus! +it'll still keep on burning. +It's still gonna burn. +Aha. +I'm gonna be warm in my bed. +Right love. +See you later. +Oh Raymond. +What? +Da-na! +Da-na! +So +Am I doing that? +making ! +Da-na! +Three coats! +Oh God! +One, two, three, and a T-shirt , a jumper. +You'll ! +No, gotta get getting that one off ! +Ha! +Nothing new is there really? +No Shaun! +I told you I can't get them everyday now! +Get my form every day! +Gorgeous! +That girl who was in the elevator plunged on the ninth floor she plunged a thousand feet to the sub-basement or there's massive big springs on it apparently, I read about it. +Only read a wee bit. +Smashed to bits? +Mhm. +Only got it that there's news. +That should be in my daily . +Oh! +You should be getting out here? +No, twenty past four when I start, like. +I've , so then you're gonna be sacked! +Have to aim at them, what time and you know things that You're alright , don't worry! +There's no +I assume that you've left. +The kids! +Is that yours. +No! +It's the people's. tell you in a minute. +Have you put your age down? +Raymond, fuck yourself! +Alright , thirty nine right. +Okay. +Anything else? +Fucking ! +Belfast. +You know, what's ? +What's the matter? +Fucking er +Where do yo where do you get +and then he well fuck you! +He says well just work on then till half twelve. +I said, we'll have to first time and yet it's all he wants and he was gonna take a day's pay off. +Well +This is your Life. +It's your man, Chris +Chris De Burgh? +Mm. +Ah ! +He was sick this morning. +Who was? +The dog? +The big one. +Did you +Can a +feed them? +Aye. +It's er they got fed. +And how's everything going? +Oh, alright. +Better go up and see Raymond. +Have you got ? +No. +No post? +Is that, no letters? +Thank Christ! +Sit! +Now you stay there! +There's your ? +Tom Jones. +Now stay there! +What have we got for them, er Jean, for my tea? +Plenty of soda bread baked. +Lovely! +What about you son? +Alright. +What happened to you? +Dunno. +I just last night falling in the bed just +I hear you got an injection. +Aye. +Ha ! +Did you feel it? +Aye. +They're not ? +No. +Oh Jesus! +Did we get the tape recorder back alright? +Aha. +The girl came this morning. +Said collect it on Friday night or Saturday some time. +Aha. +Can you not go to sleep? +Do you want +No. +a cigarette? +You needn't go into work tomorrow now. +There's not a lot of choice, +Bollocks! +If you, to hell with the money son if you're not well! +To put it bluntly. +I hear he said you have your ticket to health you weren't gonna get paid. +That's right. +I'm only just glad we can't I dunno then son. +You're okay now. +He's much better. +He's much better up there. +Try and get a rest. +Feed the dogs. +Well you got enough today. +Where's Brandy? +I don't know. +Aye. +Oh aye! +You're getting nothing! +Did you want a cup of coffee? +You see where I cut the Busy Lizzie. +I did. +I seen it. +I almost chopped it. +Well he did more than er cut it. +Now you see these smaller ones? +Aye. +Ruth's cuttings. +Well I put them Jes they're still coming out of it! +What is the point! +I put these in hoping and like, hoping that they'll grow. +Those ones there, the three of them and that'll make it, you know fill the pot. +And then, if they do take Jean +Right. +Do you want two or one? +No, no put plenty of bacon! +If you don't want it . +No. +No he hasn't got a +Oh well that's good. +So he did. +He'll have to go without pay and I told him there and then. +Good! +Good! +And what do, I saw Willie. +He says, well you're a Kelly and Stephen said th didn't say read the paper. +Well +I think her are all down in the er +I wanna take her upstairs for him. +Aha. +The rest are so there's about, a hell of a credit to King's Hall! +Is there? +Yep. +You want out Patch? +Well you're going out! +Go on! +If you wanna stay out, stay out! +Stay there! +Do you want your dinner Brandy? +Just give her a bit. +It's here. +Mhm. +Yeah, cos they haven't found why and then I said +Aha. +That's me out. +And he said +Look at the dogs trying to get in Jean. +Look! +Under the fence. +Look! +I know. +Our dog. +Maybe they're cold. +Look! +Patch ! +Nothing like dogs though. +It was in there this morning, in a way, it's got, got out somewhere. +I think it just came back here for the milk and then it'll be away. +What? +I fell asleep today again. +Probably , cos you were up about half five this morning. +Do you want your dinner Brandy? +And I hope you eat this. +The Sun'll be free soon down at the er +the what? +That up town shop. +What? +She's going. +She's going to remove her womb . +Well she, what? +Womb. +Her womb? +Fuck sake! +Don't scare me Jean! +Tell me you're pregnant, I'll be looking for a camel! +And a star! +Cos you know what they say? +What? +There's no camels come and play in my garden. +She used to work with me +And as long as you're I don't care what star you're following you're not bringing those camel through my garden! +That's all we need now is +Aye. +Better than a personal one. +It'll be me outside looking for star. +Oh God! +Shut up! +Go on! +Get away over there Patch! +Patch! +Get over there! +Get in there! +Get, get the hell! +Go on! +You go and get yourself . +Go on! +Here! +Come on! +She's in the car! +Patch! +Go get in! +Go on! +Oh where's the where's the paper? +There's gonna be a +Get in! +She's after him. +Here ha! +Come here Patch! +Patch! +Patch! +Come here! +Get into the house! +Go on! +Go on! +Come on! +Hold the +Patch, come in! +Come on! +Come on! +Come on! +Tease the paper. +Patch come on! +Call him again. +Patch! +He can't get past the garage +Patch! +and me. +Come here! +Look. +Patch come on! +Oh and there's Jan +Come on! +Patch come on! +Come on! +Come on! +Come on Patch! +Come on! +Come on! +Come on! +Well they're calling me in. +Come on! +Come on! +Come on! +But no I want some +Well he's not getting any! +Was he sick? +I think he's had enough. +Come on! +How's Harry getting on with your driving. +Fine. +Good! +Well +Call him now Jean, the other dog. +Oh boy! +Do you want to go out Brandy? +What do you want, you want your dinner? +Go and get your dinner. +Go on! +Here! +Give him his dinner . +Call him over. +Do you want an egg rest of the baking soda. +Oh God! +No, love. +No! +What do you want? +Just the baking soda. +What? +The baking soda. +I've stuffed myself with bread in your brother's today. +When he was at work. +See that soldier that was killed in England? +No. +His father had a heart attack when he heard the news! +. +I know, ho. +Terrible! +Every me a soldier killed during Raymond, do you want a cup of coffee ? +What? +Ah . +You know what the girl was telling me this morning? +What? +That dog's got into there. +Do you want a top on that? +I do. +Aye. +Please. +Jean, one of our interviewers, er the girls was interviewing a man yesterday +Aha. +and he asked her to take off all her clothes ! +Ha! +Fuck off! +Fuck the way off, you! +Big git! +Do you want a cup of coffee? +Did you hear that? +No. +One of the interviewers went into a house yesterday and asked her to take off all her clothes ! +Here! +Here! +Oh go away! +Put your feet up. +I better let that put your feet up Raymond. +Raymond like put your feet up with around. +Like, go away and I get my dinner! +Jean, keep them away from that. +Oh but I need you to tell him because of he'll, he'll wanna he'll wanna talk to me. +Here Patch! +When? +Now. +Who? +It's over. +Right. +You better get up the stairs and tell Johnny what's happening. +Oh ! +You sure you're okay son? +Mm. +Now you got fed this morning Patch. +Excuse me! +Ah +What are they doing Johnny? +They didn't wanna come back. +But he says but he'll not accepts the eleven o'clock. +I says well Are you finished with your tape? +No,thi , no not yet. +I says the only thing is I says I bring them in and then finishing is closed. +And there's and I tiptoe downstairs about nine. +If I don't come up when he goes away and for the while he's on just say he's +How the hell can they say only when he fucking hear him coming down the stairs! +So I tiptoed downstairs when she knocked at the door +Balls! +I don't think it is Raymond. +Get down! +Get down Patch! +He's a con man. +Oh she's a con man. +What's that on top of the speakers? +On the television? +Don't know. +What is it Jean? +Oh it's alright. +It's only a leaflet in the cigarettes. +Give him anything . +Jean! +They'll be no more of this! +You tell if you see him tonight, in future, now it's not right! +It's not right and I have to lie for him! +It's not right and to the wee fella. +He's behaving civil and I, that's not my form to do that. +And I'm not gonna do it any more! +No. +The dog. +A thirteen year old Belfast school girl swallowed seventy to eighty paracetamol tablets probably in the my Christ! +Probably what? +Because her mother, she had an argument with her mother when they, er she wa she was caught smoking. +She died of liver failure. +My God! +Used to take four of them paracetamols. +Mm. +Yes. +You're only meant to take them in small quantities now. +She's, is that your coffee? +What's up now? +Ah yes, I've seen them on erm +I'm not sure. +Oh he makes . +Should have just stirred it in. +All the bits. +Sure, in a couple of days they must have finished? +Ah. +What's he got under there? +stick it on her. +Are you going down to John's tomorrow or Friday? +Friday. +I told him Friday. +Yeah. +Say no. +I think I can. +She'll just stay. +Is she very happy, Jan? +Jean, that er antique fair should be on this month. +Mhm. +Do you wanna +It is soon? +I would imagine that it's very soon. +Mhm. +Should be near enough next Saturday. +Will it be as close as that? +I would say so. +Ah, the first Saturday in every month. +It's your first Saturday going. +I'm supposed to be going on the third. +Aye, maybe that's what it is. +Bum bum, bum bum bum ! +Urgh! +God! +I'm tired . +Sure you are from half five this morning. +I don't like your man there, that politician! +Say he's very hot tempered. +Ah! +Aargh! +Patch! +Patch! +Come on! +Good dog! +Come on! +Sit up! +Come on! +Up here! +Come on! +Come on! +Up! +No. +Don't touch that! +Stop that! +Stop it! +Stop it Patch! +Give me the mike you Leave it! +Get that out of your mouth! +Fuck you! +Don't touch it! +Be a good dog now. +Where's my pen? +Who's outside Patch? +Patch! +Who's outside? +Eh? +Yeah , poor cat coming round +What's out there? +and he's away to get fed. +Mhm. +Why, is that mine you're using? +What? +Mhm. +What did you +It's only about ten minutes. +Well the +It's slow. +Watch the end of it. +Ah? +What? +Wait till the end of this. +You needed +Them are in the +Yeah. +They're supposed to be lethal. +They don't take sides. +Trying to keep the two sides apart. +Ah ah ah! +Thank you Raymond! +I barked at him this morning and he barked back. +woof woof! +Miaow! +Miaow! +Shut that door. +Right. +Oh! +Look at that Jean! +What is it? +Lava, molten lava from a vol volcano. +So if it's, if it was cold this morning then why is it so hot now? +Because i it's cold on the top warm in the bottom around the middle, and then it started to move again. +And there's stuff coming from the behind +coming from. +Ray. +Excuse me! +What for? +Here. +Take your time with that. +Give me a cigarette there Jean? +Bloody matches! +I can't drink without lighting a cigarette. +You can't drink without a cigarette? +Sometimes, yeah. +Yeah, I know. +Here. +Right dog! +Good dog! +Who's in that bar in the Rosie erm who do you see? +You'll see the girls. +If they did report a rape and they'd told him the woman opposite, at the top last night er, next week come back. +Their walkie talkies break down! +Their cars break down! +She must be . +She's been crying all night really. +What? +arrest him he just kept saying things. +Need more than that. +Not really. +Not once you're in the +How much would you need +I know! +But you're not gonna do the other times. +You're gonna be away. +Well see, they're twenty to three, right? +Well not especially, you can get a lot of them made. +No, no, no. +I need to give him one. +Well that'll leave three! +Aye. +One for +Who? +Well that's a terrible thing! +Oh aye! +And then . +Some you gave me wi when I changed. +It was very nice. +And people were remonsta demonstrating towards a plea. +Yeah. +I saw the fella, no, he's in your mind. +Look at that! +A fella paid ten million pound for that painting today! +Did he? +Ah look, look at him, fat! +Shouldn't really have that o th , all that . +He's dead mind you, is, er it's all like hundreds of years and years ago. +Th the owner? +Oh aye! +Look! +Somebody offered him five million, the owner of it, and he turned it down and got ten million. +Lovely! +Look at that! +Oh! +This programme coming on is about people have bad dreams and all, and walk in their sleep and By Jesus!. +The same thing a little while ago. +No. +He's got that say the road name. +Terrorists aren't they +Johnny +Oh has Johnny still got it? +But I don't know if there's anything +No. +John's still got it. +Oh! +Remind me to ask him in the morning for it. +Aha. +I'll go up now. +Jean, I know it was windy today. +It was a lovely day! +It was lovely! +It was good drying weather. +Now. +Can't you get them cleaner? +If you can get them cleaner than that +I haven't got a decent pair of shoes you know! +The a pair you like aren't they? +Mhm. +Did you do them? +What? +Did you do them? +No. +Did you want them done? +You know that dirty, wash them with something. +That's right. +Get the polish here. +One Yes I know, and I can't find it. +Well that's the way women should be! +They should be slaves! +As you were put on this earth for, to see to men's needs! +Earned us money for drinking! +Make our dinners, make our beds, and put your arms round us in time of need, and cuddle us. +What about me? +Well to hell with women! +Yous live longer than men Jean, so men should +Yeah I know. +be getting er +Well, do I take them off? +No, your shoes. +Oh sorry! +Take them off. +I can't disturb the dog. +I will not take them off! +I can't disturb the dog. +Creep over the dog, creep over. +Come on, move it! +If you want them done. +Looks really +Erm, where's your ? +Sergeant , what do you call him? +The sarge? +Come on now John! +Keep the dishes and all me coming to you. +Not who's near the road? +Shall I for you? +No, no no. +Are you asleep? +Are you sleeping there or what? +He doesn't know he's being filmed. +Wait till you see what happened. +But what, what's happening there? +He's away to sleep again. +And that's you waking up in the morning. +Yeah, we'll watch that Jean. +Jesus! +Yeah, when Sylvia comes in you go downstairs they're in behind her. +Put the pope on. +I see make my monies not out you fucker! +Jean. +I'd say +Seem to be , he's +Stop giggling! +He's coming out. +He wants out. +Where do you wanna go? +See they're either asking what goes on. +Aye. +They know about it. +Here. +That's funny! +You haven't got to have any. +That's like in Charlie's there the other day he was sleeping. +Why? +Could you not ? +Aye, he's not on it. +No post today? +No. +Well there's another fifty P +Well you must need it. +Come on Patch! +No! +What's that? +Good dog! +Good dog! +Well I went in yesterday in at Riannes. +. +Come on! +Get up! +He'll be in your bed. +Patch! +Get away from that! +Come on! +Full of er, matches are in this. +I think if I get up at half five in the morning Jean, I'll go to the park. +Oh! +They put in the er lighting system in in the Donegal Road. +Are they? +Mhm. +Mm. +Go away! +Patch! +Is that fire okay Jean? +Yeah. +Oh! +Patch, my toe! +Stop it! +You're not doing my shoes with a black after +No, that goes for tan colour course it doesn't go +Yeah but +black! +But this kind of +That's just to buff them up. +What about all the dirt in the tow a a and the cloth then Jean? +Where's all the black marks you wanna get out of them? +You buff your shoes and the finishing touches with a very soft cloth and that's not soft. +But Raymond , I'm not finished yet! +Oh I see. +Take those shoes off. +What's that Jean. +Where do you wanna go? +I'd like you to change your name . +Mm? +Right! +Oh, wait till I get sa I saw them . +They're very good Jean! +Oh they'll be very good! +Oh yes! +Saying, that we're needing new, you can only get a good shoe, and I got a wee good shoe. +You know what you should do? +No love. +see in and you get leather dye and dye them black. +Mm. +You see brown, that brown will go with grey or a, or a dark colour. +Pure black goes with everything then. +You bloody tread down and +What are you going on about Steven? +another, or that colour. +Looks a lot like grey in colour. +Shoe shine mother, right! +Yes mam! +And go and wash your hands well Jean. +Wash them very well. +I'm going to. +That colour's all getting to, my hands are all dark. +What Jean? +Jean! +Aye. +What did you say? +No it's the best er medicine for you. +You come in and I'll do it. +Excuse me! +Er I should get the doctor to call said I'd get things +What was that, when you come out? +Ah. +Aye, will you leave that Jean. +Where's a T-shirt? +There's loads! +Here's Raymond. +That girl goes on the manor and Jack +keeps guessing that's what, I should have looked for. +There's a shirt on there. +Oh aye. +Don't, er you want these on the market, what do you think? +I wanna . +Just think it's best not to. +Those shoes looking a bit, good polishing up. +They're just worn in. +Are they not them shoes? +Ah? +This chap at work's got them on. +They're lovely! +Jeez, they are indeed! +What size are they? +Eight and a half. +Christ! +Do I turn ri right there? +Mhm. +Just need to get cut ah, couldn't you use that polish on them? +Polish them up. +What time is it? +Just stick to Fisons shoes anyway. +Oh I know, yeah. +Platforms. +Who is it the gi , there are fourteen sizes there +Oh! +you see. +washing them. +You may as well let him get the use of them. +They +Why don't you get them for school for him? +Oh right enough. +They'll never balance his foot on them. +Exactly! +Exactly! +And to one of them parents who +Mhm. +Thir thirty three. +Mhm. +That's what I would say. +I put them away. +Oh! +I'll knock out all my polish here and put them away and knock that off. +Aye. +Polish them up. +Cos that is, cos that's just a better idea then. +Mhm. +So he gets +And the day before Wednesday these and it's her bread hasn't arrived with them. +Because her bread won't come. +I know. +Something like that I'm sure. +Gotta make sure the alarm goes off. +That's okay. +Where's the cigarettes? +I better be sure it's er, what Friday night cos I did before. +Are you not sitting down son? +I'm off to get totally pissed! +Oh! +You're going to get pissed! +It's quarter to ten. +What do you want? +Can I have er are worse things to do than getting +Now Now that's not nice! +Jean. +I mean, if you stay sober. +When? +You can join your Boy Scouts. +He's a lonely +Give us a light Jean. +but just, he needs a wee drop +Give us a light. +of drinking. +So wha what did he say you had, a was it a high temperature you had and that? +No, he took a sample of urine and that. +Brown shoes. +Do you wanna see them? +They'll do for best won't they?and back now. +Jesus! +He's only worn them in! +I don't think they'll fit Willie but they're too tight for him. +All they need is a, a lick of polish. +Aha. +Now no more lies for them it's Oh you better get a big sheet of newspaper. +How do you feel Raymond? +I'm okay lying there. +Knackered? +No, not tired now. +Them two standing at the top of the stairs and +Oh aye, aye, aye! +Let me, come here Jean, let me see! +They're Willie's. +I know. +But Willie I'm rubbing these down. +and erm he's doing us a favour and some round to get Patch and er he said he'll get lots That's all ready for Simon now and he forgot his bag. +What are the T-shirts like Jean? +There's a black one and a special one. +Right. +You better get a sheet of newspaper Jean, old newspaper because that'll fly all over the floor. +I don't know. +I don't notice it. +Does it say there? +What th what is it? +Oh it's just the Express but +Today's? +Well it is, ah. +Oh ! +I was down at the library today. +Were you? +Mhm. +And I bet that'll never do it for sta too long. +On the T tonight it says there was a man started who started only started to do the pools, Raymond er, six months ago +And he won. +won two million! +A record two million! +What, in the name of Jesus, would you not do with million? +Aye. +You know what I'd do Jean? +What? +First of all, I would er buy a chest freezer then I would +Aha. +go to the supermarket and I would bung it of the best of stuff. +Then I'd go down the town buy us all clothes then, you and I would go out for a private dinner Jean. +Aha. +And I would buy you the most +Elegant. +er, elegant piece of jewellery that I could find. +You deserve it! +Putting up with us all these years! +Damn little money! +And then we'd all go on holiday. +Then, move house. +And would you be able to do all that then? +Out of the ghetto. +Ah? +Would you be able to do all that? +With two million? +Oh, four times over! +You always hear about these stories but never seem to happen to anyone. +The man wants to remain anonymous, and quite right! +Do you think I would, wouldn't put an X on a football coupon maybe they do. +I must start. +Oh it's +Your life would never, your life would never be the same, but Jean yo yo you live in this country, you live in dilly forever. +Get nothing. +If I found you'd won a hundred thousand pound I'd kidnap you! +Do you want a cup of coffee son? +Alright. +Cup of tea dear? +Er yeah, please. +Jean. +What? +There was a programme on today you'd have loved it ! +It was about an old people's home +Aye. +but they were all stars er, in their day, you know? +Stage and screen, you know, and radio? +Yeah. +Ah God! +Some of them were a sorry sight! +Oh God! +It was very sad. +Yeah, one of them's I think she was in her early eighties she, they put on a Christmas party and she sang. +It was good! +Hey? +I enjoyed it. +Ask Raymond if he wants one sugar, or two sugar in his coffee. +One. +One he said. +What's down there? +I don't know. +He's gonna get himself killed. +Was Micky in work today? +Ah? +Do you work with him? +Aye. +Did you tell him you weren't too well? +Oh aye. +That's a stupid advertisement! +He'd give up his job for a pint! +Aha. +Pint of beer! +Jesus! +What he's gonna get on the dole money, he'll not drink too much. +What you ask yourself is Raymond, how long does it take to charge up again. +I know. +Probably overnight. +There you go. +Thanks love. +What's oh! +Is Benny Hill on tonight? +No, was he not on last night? +Oh maybe he was. +No, tonight he's on. +What? +Tonight he's on. +What time's he on at then? +Jean, er what where's the paper? +Right! +Says it's on, on at eight o'clock. +it's on. +Is it? +Yeah. +Sa ah June twenty seventh of Januar er September. +Oh, I'll have to see +Erm +that. +Go down and saw it. +Lovely! +He's in films. +Yeah. +He is. +Mm. +Very nice. +No it's not on now eight did you say? +Mm. +Go back. +Mm? +Eh! +Get down. +Is the tape on? +What? +He's not on tonight. +Benny Hill. +No, the Benny Hill, and that was on last night. +Well why didn't we see it? +Must have been watching something else. +What tapes are there? +What time is it? +Half eight? +Twenty five to nine. +Alright. +Well near as be damned. +You can turn it on to your B B C two, they wa there are, says a programme on a a thing out of humans, about soul. +The soul? +A soul. +That's nice. +Mm. +Was Karen staying late Friday night? +They were. +They were indeed. +There's a couple gassed themselves, and their son in their car because their dog died! +Fucking stupid +Oh dear! +are they? +Bastards! +Fucking killing the child with cos of stinking dog! +As much as I like dogs, I wouldn't do that. +Jasper and Jennifer and the dad had their new car and it was coffin car. +And there's a car for towing caravans and . +That's sad! +I hope my headache doesn't . +Yeah, wait for me too, ah? +. +Oh ! +Urgh ! +seen the shower? +No. +Right. +I didn't love. +There's an writing in the paper beside it her daughter's pregnant by her boyfriend and she's pregnant by her daughter's boyfriend too! +Ooh God! +. +Dipping the wick! +Dirty fuckers! +And she's +The daughter sh she was lonely she left the er the girlfrie her her daughter's boyfriend threw the leg over. +Right? +And now she's found that her daughter's +Pregnant with the same man. +Same man. +Now what would that be? +She's aunt and uncle and their aunt, and mother and oh the fuck! +I don't know. +I don't know! +Granny and +She's granny and she's mother. +Well she's a mother there overnight, she's granny to the +Daughter's child. +I don't know! +So +And they have the father of the two children. +Is there anything else on then? +Or . +Mrs . +Dunno how Maggie first sat down with him. +Ooh this is a horrible programme! +We always think with religion. +What? +We always think +That's not your , how do you afford so many holidays? +It's now fourteen holidays. +Sure they cannot take one big er, holiday. +Ah? +Then you owe me so many hours don't you? +Was Carolyn there? +What? +in yesterday, but he phoned up and says er, I don't really want her to go. +Who? +Aye. +She's the one who lives down Latlogan doesn't she? +Caroline had a stroke too. +That's the hundredth stroke she's taken! +Is it a te , is it a ? +Remember Joyce ? +Lived in Brown Square. +Ah! +She's went to about ten granny and granddad's funerals! +You get sacked after, I think, about the, the ninth or tenth one! +Well I can't understand it, because erm you get, now he's getting paid and I'm scared to ask for another day! +Cos they're after him. +They're after him. +Maybe. +Maybe that's who they're against or something. +What? +Oh aye! +Batteries! +Bring us two out. +Right. +Or oh no that's a different box. +That's the wee stand, remember me to give that back, it's the stand for the mike. +Where are they? +There's the thing there. +Kelly said today that our that daddy had a, a book you know, about Northern Ireland guest houses and all where to stay, you call it. +Mm. +Says he's taking you away, aye. +And I says well is he gonna stay overnight, you know, with these two? +She says aye. +She says get him, get him to take your mummy. +Hope he doesn't want me to traipse about with Lisa. +Now, next day, er Thursday I'll bring them up here Jean. +Take them to the park. +And we're gonna be, he's on the earlies next week, and the following week. +He's on the early next week. +That's what I mean. +But, George is off Monday and Tuesday but so if you were getting them, sitting here and bringing them up on Thursday John can come here and get his tea here and then take them home. +Aye, but I'll have to go down next week because they're off school. +That's what I'm telling you! +On the brew day you could come up. +Bring them up, yeah. +And I'll get their +And I'd say to John +tea and John could come up here and get +Yes. +them and then take them down. +Yeah. +I wonder, is he trying to get her back into the house and she doesn't wanna come back. +Well, that's alright. +She's just have to +Is she, she's in the +ask Graham, you see, if +Yeah. +she doesn't wanna, she'll find +But if she +her way again. +Yes. +I understand that. +But if she's living with someone else how does she explain her absence the weekend she goes to John? +Unless she says she going to so to go over and spend a weekend now and again with her kids but er that sounds right. +Aye, but +And he doesn't be there. +But, I, what I can't understand is, why all of a sudden does he want her back and see the children, well for over a year he kept her away? +Told the children lies. +Unless he doesn't know she living with someone. +You know that saying Jean? +No. +Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. +What's that? +This dog here's taking over this house! +I know. +John's dog's not too well. +No? +No. +What's wrong with him? +He's very listless. +I said to Kelly Ann today, maybe it's fucking, erm sorry, maybe he's dying. +Cor! +I shouldn't have said it. +Sure Brandy's fighting. +I was telling Stephen today the story of a did I ever tell you? +No. +Did I ever tell you Raymond? +My first job driving a lifting in the Harrow Street? +No. +There was a Mr and Mrs , Stephen was and there was a Mr and Mrs , the caretakers, and they lived in the third floor of a flat there. +And, the first day I started right enough, they were awful kind, awful kind they were English people, I think. +They were. +He had a bad arm. +But anyway, er well I'd, God forgive me! +He's laughing, the boy! +Raymond's jumping about laughing! +I dunno, er yes, I was eating jam, bread and jam today. +And anyway, the first day she gave me right enough, she came round every morning with my breakfast and brought it into the lift for me. +But, the first day she gave me bread with jam and butter on it. +Now, you know I can take jam or butter +But not butter and jam. +That's the most revolting taste! +And instead,instead of telling the woman I I pretended to eat it couldn't finish it I put it down the lift shaft. +See? +Oh Christ, no! +The next morning the same thing happened and I still hadn't the courage to tell her. +Cos I was that grateful for her, you know, making it. +Ya. +Jesus Christ, Jean! +You wanna have seen the butter and the jam, and the smell of it! +I can smell it now! +Oh God! +But anyway this went on for weeks and weeks, and I kept on it down the lift shaft. +Instead of taking it out to the back and throwing it in the bin. +Mm. +Or you could +Right. +keep it in your pocket and take it home. +Never thi never thinking! +The lift shaft was about three foot deep. +Sorry! +Th the the well of the lift, you know from the er,ju , when you went to the bottom floor +Aye, at the bottom, right. +I would say there was a drop of about three feet, right? +Down. +So anyway, after fucking weeks and weeks and weeks I had come out to me one day, and Mr came out and he said to me he had a wee bucket and shovels and he says er bring me down to the first floor so I opened to let him out and he gets out and he says to me, now take her half way between the first and second floor and stop her. +And I says okay, but why ? +He says I'm gonna clean the lift shaft. +Oh! +Well Holy Jesus ! +Oh God! +Clean it? +He says, I clean it every now and again. +People throwing, you know, cigarette packets and all down it. +Oh my God! +So when I couldn't say a word, so he was able to open the lift door, you see, from outside. +Yeah. +The lift was immobilized. +Once the door was open it couldn't move, so I couldn't go down on it. +Well he jumps down into the fucking lift shaft and he slipped on i oh eh well you fucking bastard you! +You bastard! +Honest to God Jean! +He slipped on the jam and the bread and the butter. +Must have been bloody moulded and everything. +Bloody moulded! +Jesus +Oh hell! +Christ! +Oh my God, Jean! +What did you say? +What could I say? +It came up on his elbows and all, and his trousers were covered and there's bloody jam, er this concoction! +Oh Jesus! +Jesus! +That's terrible, isn't it? +No, they were, they were awful kind. +I forget what I said to them but the they forgot, the next, I don't think I got a bit of grub ever, since then. +Do you blame them? +Not until he left. +But I it was only butter and the jam today that er,thi this came into my head. +Oh my God! +That was nineteen fifty three. +This is nineteen ninety two. +And I, every now and again I'm embarrassed by it. +Every now and again I think about it and I'm deeply embarrassed. +You should be. +After doing that to her cooking! +Jean. +When he slipped in that muck he could have cracked his head against the side of the lift shaft! +And I couldn't have been, I couldn't get out to help him I was stuck between the first and second floor! +Well I took it up about six or seven feet, you know, from the ground floor. +Mm. +When I say the first floor, I'm talking about the ground floor and the first floor, you know? +Drink your coffee lovey. +.Well in that today he says er when I seen the syringe coming out I just, I'll not be in the room if he's getting injected. +I wouldn't have let him give it to me. +Remember the time I took to vertigo? +And the minute he walks through your bedroom door, I says no. +I don't want any injections. +I was in the toilet, giving him a shot,and I come back in and he just stuck in the syringe, there was nothing you could do. +Did he take a sample of urine away? +No, he went out to the car and brought my cards, he said he'd got it in my notes. +Oh! +And what did he say? +He says his urine was alright and his was al +Oh well, that's good. +alright. +But he said there's all +Oh! +He won't take a breakfast in the mornings any more. +He goes straight to work. +And th , and then he said talking about putting weight on nearly. +What did he say? +He asked , erm has he put any weight on? +And I have said yes, because there's a couple pairs of his trousers has ripped because he has put weight on. +Right. +But he didn't say anything when I said he has put a bit of weight on. +Raymond. +Drink affects us all different. +There are no two people affected by drink the same way. +I know. +Now we're all individuals when it comes to that. +Now, you could be one of the people that drink harmed quicker than maybe, say or maybe I'm ta injured quicker than you with drink. +I mean, there are people who can drink va vast quantities never seems to affect them. +They're up like a lark the next morning. +Jesus! +Me, like I mean, that's got now, my age, I'm not fit for three days! +Well, for two days anyway. +But, it's possible that, the same amount of drink, two people drink, taking the same amount of drink one is affected more badly than the other, or worse than the other. +Yo it's possible you could be one of those. +So you wanna be careful, like. +There's no way, Raymond, you should be able to drink two or three of those bottles o of that cider in ne in the one night, it's not good for you! +Or vodka either! +Well you, you don't drink that amount, but you know what I mean. +Stop,. +Jean I'd love a vodka now! +I'd a love a vodka and coke! +I'd give al almost anything. +Would you now? +I would sell you! +You would sell me? +No, I wouldn't. +I'm only, you know I'm only joking. +There er, there is none in the house +I know there's not, maybe that's why I've Where did you get that lemonade up the stairs Raymond? +Mm? +It's finished. +The cider, it should be ottoman ? +Inside the ottoman. +Did you get a bottle? +I didn't think +No. +I get a bottle of that. +No, no. +Raymond said to me the other day, I asked him was there any lemonade? +And he said yes. +He went up and got a bottle of Sasperella he said to me there was two bottles left. +So when the Sasperella was brought down, that was at the end of it. +And there was two bottles +Yeah cos you had the rest of the orange ? +No I didn't! +I got no orange Jean! +I gave you a drop about that much +Jean, you didn't! +You didn't! +You didn't! +Yes, I swore to God I did! +Jean you didn't! +Raymond I did! +You asked me for that? +Oh yes! +I remember. +I said yes, and I gave +I +you some. +I beg your pardon. +I beg your pardon. +That pup's, I think that pup's absolutely taking over this house! +I like that dog. +Last time there is the same thing as last night, they've lost someone as well. +You had a good day in ? +Mm. +They gave him a good , and he looked over his chest and his heart and er, pulse. +And his urine and everything. +Then they took your temperature. +I noticed you called him Chris again. +I said you're on cars again John. +Ah. +Is your man talking that's in that big programme? +No. +What are the teachers trying to tell you here? +No! +It's certainly got the right ones there. +He's not getting it! +Willie +Aye +Willie is +Willie. +got a few clothes and the better. +Let the dog out Jean if he wants out in the back. +Jean, the Golden Girls are coming on. +Okay. +Jean! +I'll fix that up for you. +The Golden Girls are coming on in about what? +Ten minutes? +I'll see to that. +Can you make or what was I saying? +Is that right? +Mhm. +I need one pound for the bus fares. +And thirty P for the paper. +Thirty for the paper and +But I think so then. +That's twe , that's three twenty for +Mm. +today. +And it's twenty P eighteen, seventeen, be enough for +Right. +But you'll have to before a day. +It's only because you didn't tell your bloody brothers! +Anne. +She's the only one . +And then having to actually pay us again. +I don't know what's wrong with this paper, this pen won't write on it. +I know. +Hang on. +Did you say I've done wrong then Raymond? +Like I say something then? +Ooh, there's not shine in +That's nonsense isn't it? +What? +I would get a better, I'm not saying I'd get a better shine than that. +I would have them like shoes. +Turn that over to on your way past to four and I'll make you a cup of tea. +Can I have, erm, I can't go up the stairs yet. +woof woof! +He took a front page off that. +woof woof! +Fucking mad! +Ah! +We can't all be sensible! +Woof, woof, woof, woof! +It's alright when you're going down, you spoil them and I say woof, woof, woof! +And then you see that. +Just a li little arm in there. +Look! +Suffering Jesus Christ and +Not wet? +He should be there every time cos she's gonna be out with the kids and all. +No, I can't get up. +Well where is she? +Oh! +She must have came here to just number ten so far . +Lie down! +This is like +Oh we didn't phone yet. +We didn't book the leg of lamb. +No. +I forgot how many we got round here +Mm. +because we needn't to sit them down. +It's just that er +I'll tell her anyway otherwise we might have the sack. +Mhm. +That we couldn't get out. +It's the truth. +Oh there's a skip outside Mo's tonight. +Wasn't there till this morning. +Oh! +Skip outside Mo's with all the burnt stuff in it. +I complained. +After a , by the time you get off it was alright wasn't it? +Aye Brandy, I know what you want Ah! +What you gone, right in the hole? +The door's open! +He wants you pat him. +Did you, did you have a new tape in? +Not for sweeping. +Will you piss off! +John was home before seven tonight. +And I got the book it must have a bus you know ano , another, an extra bus on because he was allowed to get off at the tonight. +I think it's the last one, as I said. +I was expecting to wait till about a quarter past seven. +What you playing at? +What are you saying? +It's hard to be a woman. +To just one man . +What do want mum? +I don't mind Do you hear thunder? +It's that got your feet on the dog, it's stinking! +You wanna smell their dog. +You wanna smell their dog. +Why? +It's stinking! +And I mean, stinking! +She's grabbing you, put her down. +Mind her tail. +woof woof! +Come away from that. +Why don't hear this programme Jean. +This was done years ago. +I've no idea. +I meant to say Jean, you know the motor +You told me about the motor. +we'll just say that Kerry and Sandy will be coming to collect it. +What? +Then, a couple of minutes. +Thank God for that! +Alright Steven? +I'd like to go on there. +It's the only way to be Steven. +No, you're alright, sure. +This is great! +Ooh! +Er! +I've been drinking vodkas all night. +Mind you it's +Patch! +Simon must have bought me about five vodkas!my throat. +Thank God I missed myself. +Friday night. +Took seven or eight. +My God! +Raymond would be on his back! +Eh? +He'd be on his back if he'd had that amount of drink. +Drink makes me very tired, yeah. +I'd have , I'd have about fifteen or fourteen I'm, I'm knackered now! +Just fall asleep. +I wouldn't try and to go and fall asleep. +What? +You won't believe it! +What's that? +Aha. +That's a damn nuisance and all too! +Where's the now? +She doesn't have to come inside. +Right next to daddy there. +Right Kerry! +Take care love! +Okay Kerry? +See you later! +See you in the morning. +Yeah, cheerio! +Cheerio! +Well, cheerio! +Do you reckon, do you reckon she'll be alright? +Better start walking there now, takes a bleeding hour to get round there ! +Why, where does she work? +I dunno ! +God knows! +That's what I mean, I've gotta go out with the chippie van. +Johnny never went +I dunno! +You, you gonna hide them shoes? +Well I'm not +That'll be in there and give him a bit of encouragement. +And the er, I should think I said, er Ray they're going +What? +They're going away. +Ooh! +They got to go out tonight. +I was standing there the other night +Aye, I know. +saw her go past me up the street. +She didn't? +What was she doing? +Kept fucking, blowing her fucking hair or whatever it's called! +It's called +My darling looks like that from half past seven onwards. +I didn't even talk with him. +You bad boys! +Said she's been +Oh aye, she's a lesbian in it. +I think. +This was on before. +Mm mm. +Do they know she's +Mhm. +The ma does. +Is it you that's got a paper? +Dad? +So,? +Oh it was great! +Mm. +Well that's nice is it? +There was a bit in the box. +It's empty. +I bet she's eaten it! +But it's empty. +Does it matter if she took it? +Not at all. +Only children. +That if she's I bet she's eat the chop's in her mouth. +Raymond please take that off! +She's talking to me there so I have to. +Well there you are. +Know where you're going? +Aye. +Faint heart never won fair lady. +True. +Where is this road? +Chip wagon? +I think, yes, I have to go to the chip wagon. +Wherever that, +Are you going? +Aye. +I know where it is. +What? +I just follow the nose. +Not at all! +Not enough bank notes. +Oh! +Don't forget he's in the +Go on the trams. +He's in love! +He's in love! +Leave him alone! +I'm not in love. +I've never been in love. +Well, once. +But, she's not gonna be wearing that +He loves his mama. +I know. +Well, it's not that either. +Jean. +Been in love once. +I had, aye. +From Ireland? +No, she were an English lass. +But she bit me! +Glad I kept a straight face afterward. +And where you going? +Mm. +So er she's on trial. +saying if our dog's on trial that's all. +See you later. +What that, where you're, don't let them get out! +I'll leave it till then. +Okay. +That looks better. +Are you sure? +Aye. +Oh no! +You might them down on this. +Oh yeah, I know. +She's fallen, she's fallen for the grey woman. +Patch! +With Rose? +Which one's Rose? +The one that's always talking about her young day ! +Oh about the farm one? +Yeah. +Aha. +See, I was talking to Steven and I got lost. +Yes , I understand that. +Where's the dog? +Dunno. +Raymond, you're like something out of the Wizard of Oz! +With that hair! +I feel it! +You said it'd be all , where is he? +So +I wonder where William is? +I suppose so, if one stayed. +It's only half ten. +We'll have to get the girls back, Steven. +It will it will cost money. +There's a wee square I dunno what you call the material, bakelite or whate , not bakelite, it's a it's for use in electrical insulation and when you it's cracked I think, it's not the grill, the wires of the grill the actual Patch! +I thought John says all +Johnny , get that dog down ! +I thought John says all you have to do is replace the grate and +No. +It's, the thing that you push it into, the two prongs will do. +It's something else. +No, the two pro , the thing that the two prongs sit in is cracked so naturally say it had to go into a hole that size, right? +Mhm. +And then, each side of it's making contact and it's gone into a hole that size, and it's moving it ain't making contact. +He, bet you he's got toilet roll up there! +Well I'm not going up! +Patch ! +He's most probably waiting. +It's not like that er, T V dog you see where big string of toilet roll, it and it maybe in fucking pieces! +Stop that Brandy! +Patch! +Patch! +Patch! +He's up here. +Is he with you? +He's in our room Johnny. +He's not with you at all. +Come on Patch! +Come on! +You turned into a rabbit Johnny? +Come on Patch! +Come on Patch! +Come on! +And I want their names. +Go and ring that up. +Patch! +Urgh! +Urgh! +Urgh! +Urgh! +This time last night I was in bed. +You should be in bed now. +Raymond. +Will you take the big one? +Do you want out Brandy? +Patch! +Stay there! +Stay there! +Come on Patch. +Er, Brandy. +I should have taken you a walk tonight. +Eh? +Come on up! +Come on! +Get up! +Danny Thomas is a man. +Hiya William. +Hi. +Alright now? +Try them on. +Where were you William? +At er +Well did you go there again Billy? +You're not twenty yet. +Did you see Q E D? +Mhm. +Mm. +This guy wasn't it? +Mm. +Scared if I get to my bed ! +He must have thought he was dog cos you see him sniffing round. +Or doing something, then he leapt over the camera. +Mhm. +What sort of a game's that? +Sure, I didn't know him you see. +That's +You're telling lies! +They're gone. +Will you give us it up. +I can't, look at the dog, Jean! +Jesus! +So it is. +Mhm. +And it's general knowledge. +So? +It's not a game. +What's that? +Where's you answer the questions? +Like . +you're right. +No they're not. +Like, you want them, bloody take them! +Where did you get? +So they are. +Did they pick you already? +And you wanna see a few t-shirts. +Look at her! +And you'll have to thank Sylvie . +Just say a wee thanks very much. +What about that? +Now if you think they're too tight I bet your come right out and rip them and come out over +Good. +Alright. +Good. +How long have they been on you? +They're a great shoe aren't they? +They are. +These are the one, mum I wanted you to get? +I know what you're gonna do with them. +Keep them for school. +Right. +Your boots, or your braids, and them white ones for try the other one. +One foot's bigger than the other. +Try the two of them on. +Oh Christ! +She's sleeping in her room. +See the woman had to get the alarms. +Mhm. +Have you the two of them on yet? +That's er foot must be smaller than the other. +What? +This one foot, they must be than the other. +Yes, that's probably so. +Is it too small for you? +No. +Are they comfortable? +Right, honest to God Jonathan, they aren't. +I can feel it, that there. +Gotta get used to them though., it's . +No, say! +He doesn't want them and he's not getting them! +I don't want them! +Aye! +They're too tight. +That's your daddy's feet with a +You never look a gift horse in the mouth. +I think they're alright lovey. +I don't think they're too tight at all. +See Steven? +Aha. +Daddy. +Can I listen to one of them conversations? +There is no conversation son. +That's +No. +mainly on +It doesn't matter. +Get her off me! +You're scum! +Oh eh! +Do you know when this arrested? +Tonight, yes. +What bread's there? +Well I moved it ah? +That's brown. +Ah, but what about the morning? +I don't take out any. +No, but I do, and your mummy, and Raymond going to work. +Two, four, six. +You take two rounds Willie. +And there's a bit of ham left. +Where? +Where the tomatoes are. +Don't take it all. +That is still leaving six. +Well then, if you take two and that'll leave us six. +I want half of that ham left. +Mm mm mm. +Do you want thin or sli thick slice of bread? +Do you want two rounds and thin ham would be lovely! +Well I won't be too happy if there's no bread. +Well what do you want? +What? +Would rather have erm erm, prefer scrambled egg and toast? +Jesus! +No, we'll leave it till the morning. +but you haven't gotta get +Da da da ah ah ah, da dee +Is there no biscuits in there? +Not in the wardrobe. +I asked John. +given him Thursday. +Mine. +I'll,he let you have a couple. +Please. +There's one packet of er +Well I'll let you. +I'm not starting the box. +Well you, hold the dog up here in mid air. +No, I can't do that. +I'm only joking! +You sit there and I'll get them. +I don't want any. +Balls! +Did you watch Inspector Morse as well? +Parts of it, son. +Shame about the stupid didn't think it just happens. +Aye. +Tell me, where did er James get the tape? +Neil? +Sorry, Neil. +Sorry! +Well do you know what brought, brought it up about computer games? +We were playing his tonight. +Right. +And I was looking through the videos there. +Go on, have one he says. +they got videos for nothing. +Did he say where he got it? +But er he's, er he was playing with that the other day. +With the one +Ah! +and that's probably what he said. +Mm. +The dog's dreaming. +Get them? +No, I'll just get them. +Look at the bloody dog! +What? +Dreaming. +Found them? +Shall I sit on the dog? +You what mother? +Not much to let down. +Willie the dog is getting to me. +What er +Every single, first night then, then Willie? +Who? +But it wasn't to be. +What's wrong? +It's her. +Why? +It's that Angela is it? +You seem to able to go in there. +They went to the back of the programme there. +Just do me a boiled egg and, and a round of toast an And like most of the bedroom +What's that? +They're coming off. +Come beside you. +That's right. +Come here! +Here! +Here! +Come here! +or sleep. +What'll be best to do? +I heard a certain story that you got a girl pregnant? +No, she wasn't, alright, it was alright. +Well son I love this! +Don't touch it! +Don't touch that, Brandy now! +Brandy! +Whoop! +Dog! +Shouldn't be ne +Yeah. +don't even touch it! +Dog's a +Ruined all, they are. +I'll wring your neck for you! +That dog's +That dog looks What? +That's Raymond's, yeah? +Mm. +Thanks. +Speak English William, for Christ's sake! +Mouthful of food! +Go away rat pack Patch! +Go on! +I didn't know, I thought Lennox Lewis was finished with his boxing career, was he not? +Mm. +I dunno. +I don't understand it, so I don't bother Jonathan. +Is he knocked out? +What do you mean? +Mike Tyson too. +Pardon me. +Johnny, what did you think of that fight earlier on? +Who? +Foreman! +Crap! +What? +Well Lennox Lewis his boxing career has finished, no? +He's a big boxer now isn't he Jonathan? +What? +Shaun! +What? +Shaun! +I said who! +We're trying to get a conversation out of you and you're grunting! +I says, aye! +Oh, that's a conversation , yeah! +Got a problem? +Mm. +Who? +There's no problem at all. +I know there isn't! +So tell me, you went to see this girl? +I got another tape for the computer. +What do you call it? +There's no problem Johnny! +It's just normal. +I won't, I can't understand what it is, but it says general knowledge. +Do you wanna try it? +There must have been a series, general knowledge three that's +I want to watch the +Mm. +football fir I'm watching the boxing first! +Is that Mickie Duff, the promoter? +Aye. +He's got bother with the police. +Turn it on, see what it does Willie. +Aye, go under the stairs. +I'll try it in the morning when yous are all in bed. +I don't want anybody trailing at the back of that television with that new ariel lead we got put in! +Which I'm not paying for any more! +Right! +Ten, twenty, thirty, forty no it's not enough. +I think it's about fifty odd quid to get a remote control set a remote control handset. +Thirty five +Well let me see that stammer. +. +There's a new one there. +This is ! +Have you missed, you didn't seen your daddy have you, tonight? +Er, give me a bit of rest, the thing will only answer, burn out. +Well, get her down again until Jan +Up! +And bring her home again +Aye. +if she's +Come on Patch! +Come on! +Come on! +Patch! +Come on! +Come on! +Come on! +Come on! +Come on girl! +Come on! +Come on! +She's up all night with the +Come on! +Excuse me. +Who's ? +He's lovely! +When you see Neil tomorrow ask him does, does he know anywhere we can buy some of them tapes second hand. +The A C twenty. +You just want any tape boxes? +You're gonna have to watch Jean, if anybody offers you them that you haven't already got them. +I know that. +We're gonna have to take a list of what we've got, and if we ever see an advertisement and we're gonna buy them, say oh no, I've got that one and that one, and that one, and that one. +But I've now taken this out tonight. +Yeah, I expect that Johnny's , do you ever do any? +Where's the matches? +Does a dog carry around diseases? +Yes. +Dad, you see for my no, I don't suppose there is any. +Look. +Well if I get those because I walk, the way I walk wears the front of the soles of the shoes down. +Right. +Right? +And I can't afford it. +Can you put them on the back of that shoes? +Not rubber soles. +Not rubber soles. +It's out of time son and leave it. +You're gonna have to buy a pair of cheap shoes, to save those when you go in church. +That's okay. +Can't afford to get them soled and heeled all the time. +Yeah. +Your dad has to sit and polish his shoes anyhow. +Patch! +Those ones? +Aye. +The tan ones. +Put them down son. +Well I'm only looking! +See when you get them socks off then why don't you throw them in the bin. +Please. +Do you wanna stick that tape on Willie? +No. +Kerry was saying last night she's choosing tuition. +How many does she take? +Is it one a week? +Aha. +Or two a week? +Ah? +Normally a Tuesday night. +Just one a week. +Did you hear me boy? +Couldn't I put it on? +Gee! +I told you not to! +Here, wait a minute! +Here son, here. +I'll turn this off. +Er +Right for the girl. +All of this. +Now, anybody comes in can see it's going. +Fuck's that? +It's er it's a like a it's like a it's like a you put sa +You know that's puzzle master don't you? +Oh yeah it's meant to be in the end there. +It's a puzzle master! +Well we'll see! +Please stop now! +Alright! +Now don't let's go o overboard here at this time of the night. +Come on Patch! +Come on up. +Up! +Come on. +Come on Patch. +from you. +Alright Willie. +Put your tape machine back in the thing. +What? +The tape thing. +I'll put it back tomorrow. +Put it back on the television. +You won't Johnny? +It always says error and two, four, seven , why's that? +No it doesn't. +Mm. +It only does error for something wrong with the machine. +The game's over. +When you pull this out and it goes the next time start it turn it over, rewind it to the front. +Just turn the machine right o tape right over and use the other side. +See what happens. +And you'll need that machine there back a bit from the television as I've already told you. +Aye, it's moving this. +Now all you gotta do is to move, that's right! +I'll just move this. +No! +Now don't look funny now Willie! +And stretching it +I'm not being funny! +and stretching it like that. +What? +You're very unpleasant when you're like that boy! +They know how. +No they don't. +That's the terrible thing Jean! +They think they do. +That's what I meant. +There now, stop it! +Just stop your tape first and er turn it over to the other side first. +Turn it round. +Now wind it back. +I wouldn't do that. +I wanna see what's on the other side. +Right now. +Very clever! +No Willie! +Stop it! +That's right. +Does this play in Neil's house? +I don't know. +No, he hasn't got a machine that cuts out. +Try and stop it. +See what I mean? +That's going on. +Excuse me. +See what I mean, the other side was alright. +Johhny look!soccer outdoor loading. +Oh yeah. +Has it done the mountaineering one? +Yeah. +I'll +That one. +Patch! +Where's the paper?with Arthur Ash with AIDS. +I'd be really frightened. +With all the +Well how are they gonna know? +What is it doctor said? +Tell him to come back to him or +Well you can take yourself to hospital. +But did the doctor say he'd come down and see him +No. +in a couple of days anyway? +Right. +I wish they would +Oh Jesus Christ! +We've ourselves in hospital. +and peace and things and the poor people who died as well. +Raymond , I know all about it son. +Right. +I think I'll after tomorrow afternoon. +Have you eaten them sweets? +No. +Ha! +And he can't get up you see. +He don't. +Well , he needn't, I mean I would have stayed in bed. +Really? +Looking at his chest, looking at his chest it upset me there. +And he was only gonna say nothing. +If I were you I would woke up today and all. +He told me, like, I turned round and says have you left them on? +I know. +He's left them on fourteen odd hours and they'll be running out. +I can do that tomorrow night. +Jesus Christ Almighty Johnny! +Can you not +What's all that for? +tell her what you have! +I told her! +That's your bus fare down the road to buy nothing! +Johnny, you'll not get +That's what you'll get. +a job son sitting on your arse! +Or in the club playing snooker. +He says that he'll be able to have that one it work and I'll work for him tomorrow. +Och! +Now don't be silly +It's true! +Raymond please! +But I, don't know why he says that. +Good job he's not insured for it. +What'll you do now daddy? +How does it work? +Aye. +Turn the machine off quick! +Will you just let it go, it's still loading. +William! +Turn the machine off! +. +It's still loading daddy. +Turn the machine son. +William, put it back to yo you had it back there, the far side, put it back. +Right now. +Now, wind it back. +Now you try and break that again son and I'll put a foot in the back of your head! +It's as simple as that. +You get irritable at this time of night when you get tired and you get ill mannered, and I don't like it! +So go to your bed if you can't behave normal. +He ha! +It's not even rewinding that up. +Well then it's rewound isn't it? +Aye. +Then press them two buttons whatever you do. +I just +There's an error. +That comes up as waiting because it's not the right side. +Whoever's on the phone? +Oh God, Jean! +Will you give it a rest love! +Please. +All for a game. +Did you hear daddy up at half five this morning? +No. +Talking to your dog. +You're a bad dog! +Yes! +I never would have messed about. +Right, up! +Sit in the chair. +Touch nothing! +I should fucking try again. +Turn it on a sec. +Just see if I +Where did you get the tape? +His mate Neil give it him. +He found it amongst his own but he doesn't have a V A C +No. +See it's a soccer one. +Alright, just a minute. +Just a minute. +Hold on now. +And now it goes up again because there's a V A C Onyx standard, that's an Onyx standard machine. +And there's a V A T, V A C twenty expanded which has more gadgets on it. +That may be a expanded game. +Which we haven't got that, the equipment for. +If we but which programme have we got? +But that . +I might be able to put an ad in the paper for them games. +You wanna see the games they've got for sale in London at Christmas and I haven't . +Right. +This looks quite good. +Do you know what they're doing up at er +Mm. +see for ninety, you can borrow a sixteen bit Sega and get three games with it. +Up at for five pound a night. +Right. +Oh I know that. +And for, over a weekend it's a tenner. +Shit! +Th and it has the best graphics. +Yeah, but +Play the games. +Right. +Wait a wee second. +Wait a minute. +We'll see. +Does he always come round in the morning then? +No. +Well some gave me five and . +Just to the +It's down the bottom +Aye. +They say it's only available for +Well maybe he can't drink Jean. +Well you don't know, to some people fifteen vodkas is nothing. +It's gonna show error again. +Well that's not very good, ours. +Well no. +But then you seem to have graphics on, graphics on it don't you? +Yeah well I bet the Sega's the best graphics. +Graphic is like +The Sega do you get there, is that the one? +That one over there. +Again, error comes behind it. +Did error come up and all and that? +Yes. +Oh, when the tape's showing, stopped? +When the tape's stopped, that's right. +It wasn't. +It's tur , no, I think I know what it is! +Don't stop machine, machine at all turn the tape over and just press play. +No, you can't do that love. +Sure, but with Neil's you can. +Can some of the can some of the games let's say there's a, one side isn't playing, and try the other? +Well, we haven't got the case, so try it now. +Well who said +And some of the games are very slow. +I must say Jean, you didn't do a bad job for woman! +I only wanted the job. +You said that was the one you polished again for me. +Shut the right door Willie. +Easy! +Oh it's easy. +Mm. +Please, we're gonna sit here all day. +No . +I didn't see Willie impressing the new girl. +No, just to to tonight because I came. +Cos we knew it was Claire. +I remember my first computer. +It got lost. +sad. +And you'll have to keep them, I mean can't spend out money for it's the truth though. +Do we get our Easter eggs on Monday? +I'm sure you won't. +Have you got me one? +Yes. +I got us one each. +? +Just an ordinary Easter egg. +Er, you'll have to see what happened. +There it is, the machine's stuck. +Turn the tape over. +Aye, just keep +Well not till I, we'll wait and see what happens now. +The tape is loading +It's not gonna show anything until, until +It's alright William! +you've scanned it. +Okay William. +It's only a game. +A clue. +Oh we never had to do what you're saying in any other games so why the hell should I have to do it now? +Cos some games are different. +Och! +You're balls! +Aye. +Alright. +That's lovely! +Gerry getting married +You all insist that I know nothing but nobody else can do this. +It's okay now son. +It's okay. +Won't you get me any on Monday? +Don't know whether I'm gonna get you any this week. +Yeah. +And you didn't do last week. +So you didn't do it anyway. +Where are you getting the money Johnny for these jacuzzi? +Must do Monday night. +Mhm. +Is Willie going back down there too? +No! +Where's Johnny's? +No? +So he has to get four fifty every Monday? +Aye. +So how come you had nine pound last week? +Because we had the from that Johnny. +He means, normal are you getting your twenty? +That's right. +Well why don't you use your head and go and do them yourself? +The good thing so we'll overlap. +He does. +You never do windows on your own. +I thought I'd get a +Oh I know you +would Johnny. +So you never do them. +Daddy. +What about you and Micky or do you go ? +No I don't. +Do you not, do you not want to every week? +No. +Jeez! +Don't you be telling us Sunday night, or Monday night during the week haven't done or not. +No, they're +See you tomorrow boys. +Mm. +I'll go down the road. +See before yous go out. +Go through your drawers and anything you don't need bring them down and throw them in the bin. +I'll give mine to Steven. +Far too big for Steven at the moment son. +And he's got plenty. +Throw them out. +And, you see that wardrobe +William! +Aye teacher! +William and Johnny! +Yes, alright. +You see the wardrobe in your room? +Aye. +Anything there too old, coats, anything that's left on the floor, old boots, shoes that you too small for you throw them in the bin. +Now, when I look in the bin tomorrow I wanna see something to tell . +It's mine. +Now, what'll we do with you now? +Swapping? +I'm gonna get those what do you call, er +Turned ,te , turned over. +And then there's +Right +everything else. +Er, what? +Just do it like erm +Straight up. +Say, okay I'll do that. +How do you know it doesn't start up again? +Go onto there. +Be ever so careful. +Well you, and hit it with your . +You've . +Oh that's alright then, you're wanted upstairs. +Nothing. +Yeah. +Just nothing happens to it. +I'll be +Get it on there mother. +That Ten happens to be on Friday night. +I'm going out. +Not this Friday night, next Friday night. +Suddenly it's +You're not gonna be able to enjoy it, but I'll tell you that every week. +But so it is. +I'll be here. +Johnny this'll be +Sure! +Let's have a look. +Can I have a new chair? +Yeah, like it's staying out here. +Sh , got it on ? +Sure! +I can, I can get more money next week like that didn't it? +Oh yeah? +Do you know what yous two fucking remind me of Kerry and Steven. +Just see Kerry and Steven the way them two go. +They talk. +I was hoping I could have a +It's far too long now. +I can't help it. +Does that mean I'll never play that? +No. +I wish I hadn't started. +It's replaced all the it should be. +Oh no. +It's right to the end. +Okay. +The things are still going. +Raymond, that's this machine son. +You're watching the machine. +Right. +We'll try this again. +Now look, it does play. +Press play er right! +Whoop! +Error. +Turn the tape. +Play. +Play. +I hope the won't be long tonight. +Play. +Ah! +First of all the coming down. +What? +It's okay. +What don't? +I remember you saying. +I don't know anything about it son. +Something a about a precinct or something. +Our Price. +but I didn't say anything about precinct. +Precinct thirteen. +Mhm. +Well then in thirty five years open the precinct thirteen now. +That's all. +Any good? +Yeah it's alright. +What are you doing William? +Ha? +I'm just warming up. +Are you okay? +You didn't bring your bag did you? +And take it out. +Sorry? +Can you go and do your bag and some +What? +Right. +Now that doesn't happen. +Okay? +So we'll leave this bit. +Can I have a go? +Right. +Come on! +Well pick them up! +Give me two minutes Johnny, and we'll put it on for you at last! +I've gotta rush upstairs! +Stay here and see if this works Johnny. +Oh right . +There you are. +That was quick. +Sure hope so. +Is it there? +It wasn't Johnny. +Whoops! +Where's the error, there? +Well let's ease her down. +There you are love. +Mm mm mm. +I think I'm just gonna be a Jack Russell! +It's not going very good. +It's not? +No. +Well then it's veering right and then going just sitting. +Right man. +Shouldn't . +So what's the use of that handle? +Rum da dum dum dum +Well that's why I did it in the morning Jean. +Oh right. +Okay. +Goodnight son. +Away and get me a couple of +Rum da dum da da . +Get them out there though Jean. +Da er er +No I think I might in the box. +Just joking! +Shut up your mouth Willie now! +John! +You know he bites back. +Yeah. +There's one of those +Set it up there. +Brandy! +Move out the hall. +Come on. +It's got the thing +It was up to eighty odd. +That's eighty minutes. +And check out one of them +That goes up to eighty odd. +Right, that'll do it love otherwise you'll be there all night darling. +You know like, put it compare it with your money. +Not a lot left. +Listen son, now just, just open that door there! +Wait. +And jus just do it son. +Go easy. +And go and do that and get away from what's going on. +Why do you have to stand two foot away from it? +Dunno. +Here William! +Come here! +Sit, and hold them. +Settle down! +I can't do it! +Son, settle down.? +No. +Go to bed! +Go on! +Get out! +Ah soon you'll be to your money. +Go into bed and watch television up there. +Right son? +Right. +I don't like to go off Jean. +I wasn't doing nothing though. +Get up to bed! +Go up in our bedroom. +I'll tell your daddy again. +I bet +Go right along. +Go off to bed now ! +Cheeky bastard! +I don't like putting coal in here. +Then at night just firm it please Jean. +I'll be out all day. +No messing! +No messing ! +Cos you know, I think we need our chimney cleaned up. +I do that. +It smells really clean. +Cos every time you open that door there's bound to be that's stinking then! +Get someone while I'm not here. +Well and he wants popping round when there's nobody here and then I've left some for half an hour. +What did you say? +No. +That's the end of the tape. +There's nothing happening Raymond. +The tape's still stopping and it keeps loading. +This one does. +Well, it's twenty five to twelve! +It is indeed. +Take a spoon up and get her to take her medicine. +On your way,even get through that cup and plate in son? +Where? +Up, over near the sink. +Right. +I will try that tape in that morning. +Night then. +Night son, night. +And see how you are. +Feeling better tonight? +Then you'll have to come ho home again +It's up to himself. +Just keep that on until that's all. +I'd have said there's enough there wouldn't you? +Mm. +Yeah. +Oh Jesus! +Oh fuck! +Why is it sitting there love? +Oh that tape's going, so that's alright. +And to do say one, two, three's done. +Right? +One, two, three is done. +That's one two three and then, including number four, aye. +Four have to use that one, okay? +Do that in the morning. +Where are they? +That is ano another one to be done. +It's the er +That's Shaun, you can hear her talk. +Oh that's right. +Watch the dog behind you. +Jean, did I ask you if you were going to John's tomorrow? +I said no. +That's good! +Friday, I'm going. +That's good! +Are you going to an early on Friday? +Patch stay there. +William +What? +is your friend coming for you this morning? +I've to call for him at half ten. +What? +I've to call for him at half ten. +Half ten, right well I'm going soon. +Okay then. +It's twenty past, I've to get the bus. +Jean Jean I have to go now it's half ten now. +Mm right. +I was up the park this morning with the dog. +Were you? +Mhm. +I'll have to go now, honestly. +I slept on the settee down there, I fell asleep. +What? +Is away to work? +Yes he's away to work, yeah. +Could you give me my bus fare Jean, please? +And Willy's to call for his friend, look at that rip that up Willy. +I was up the park this morning Willy at half five. +Yeah? +It was, tell a lie, sorry half six. +Lovely it was. +Where you going Willy? +What? +Where you going? +Dunno. +Ask the wee fella does he know anybody that's got one of those er VAC twenty +computers. +That must be an expanded one although, although the case would have told you that He seems a pleasant wee fella that. +He is. +You in the bathroom Jean? +It's alright I haven't even got breakfast yet. +You know the trip to the park this morning? +I, I had the rest of that Yorkie Bar, the last of it, couple of squares. +Won't go far on that. +Okay son, behave yourself. +I will. +up the park Willy? +? +Aye. +Patch stop that scratching You've had your food. +Jean do you want a bit of buttered soda? +What? +Do you want a bit of soda buttered? +I don't know wh Is that about a job ? +Comic Relief. +Oh for fuck, tear it up. +Comic Relief . +Come in here a minute Jean. +What love? +Oh Jesus. +When that goes cold , okay? +Where are you Jean? +Here. +Come on give us a hand here. +What? +You what? +It's difficult to tell sit there. +I'll go and get a couple of mats. +What's she sitting there for? +Patiently waiting the day. +nothing, she's had her food. +Oh +give her a wee drop later Jean cos she'd a good walk this morning you know and er now those Bramleys up there,okay? +Right. +So I have to +She knows +No no, I know that. +you know? +Aha. +Anyway, right the park was lovely this morning. +Was it nice? +It was. +Was there many in it? +Out of the roa out of the road Patch, move over . +There wouldn't have been many at that time in the morning. +Well the point about it is, the greyhound men +Aha. +well their dog's off you see and they've gotta be careful +Yes. +that and you know dog okay? +Yes. +and er if they come off the leads you see +Yes. +I let Brownie out went up the back and there was Brownie in the Malone River then he saw me so no lead with me +And did he g +Mhm +did he go along with you? +Mhm. +That was good then. +The two dogs had great fun. +What's she eating? +What? +Patch stop that. +Put that down . +There was ice on the seats in the park. +cigarette please, was there? +Mm. +Ah Raymond must've took some. +More than likely has. +How does he feel this morning? +Well I asked him was he alright and he said aye, and then I fell asleep, I've been sleeping from after eight twenty past eight. +The er I took the binoculars up this morning. +Did you? +Aha. +See anything? +No, I looked for rabbits and squirrels, I could see nothing. +Was there a mist or anything? +No? +No it was nice now but I had to sit like that with my arms up my sleeves. +Bit bitter cold. +cigarette +I would say it wouldn't matter what time you went up the park there'd be somebody there. +But it was lovely. +It's the best time of the day to go up when there's nobody . +I'd imagine there'd be people maybe down and outs maybe tramps sleep in that park with newspaper round them or something. +There you are. +You should've heard the different birds. +Lovely. +But I c er I only see a blackbird, that's all, two blackbirds three. +But I could hear the rest of them. +Mhm. +That dog had the microphone in his mouth. +God save us all. +Mhm. +To me she looks very thin even though what we're feeding her. +Well it may be that type of a dog Jean. +I mean look at, look at Brownie and look at, and John's is a fully bred thorough or er a pedigree labrador. +She's more fat than a chip and he's feeding her tons of stuff. +Right would you give me my bus money please and whatever you're giving. +Well that'll do. +I hate this babysitting job Jean. +I know John. +Och I hate it. +What can I do? +Well I said I would do it and I'll do it, I won't let them down, I'll never let them down but +Ah bring us number seven out of the seven good God bring me number seven excuse me +John are your brushes down here? +What time is it love? +Oh fuck shouldn't be here. +and apparently the clothes are very cheap in it, and the shoes. +Now if we could get down there I could ma what did I tell you? +I could maybe get you a cheaper pair of trainers right, but good ones right? +Och well I don't know about what na good ones anyway, and maybe get you a rugby jumper. +That would be a surprise for your da, wouldn't it? +Mm. +Well would you like that? +Mm. +And even carry on and get her a wee jumper. +What do you +No +What? +Second hand or what? +Bloody new. +Second hand! +? +Yeah. +Well it all depends on where it's going. +There's some goes to Armagh, Craigavon, Seymour Hill, Conway Estate, Portadown and the Faulkner base. +runs that way, runs that way and they grabbed her. +Eh? +Cos the poor old dog's never out, that's why. +Kelly +and then she'll start running away Stephen. +She will. +She will, she's gonna be big Kelly, and she goes , she goes half way up and run down, back then +I know that. +I know that, and it's not right. +Ah ! +They could take you out. +Saturday morning. +Mhm +Mhm. +Mhm. +I tell you what we'll do, what about this what about this if the messages are a bit late today, right, and we've gotta go to er the court to pay the money and the shop to get your shoes why not, if when the minute the messages come, go straight up to Taughmonagh right? +I'll be down early in the morning, right, and me and you and Kelly Ann'll head out early in the morning and pay the court and get the new shoes and we'll have all morning to do it, eh? +And then we can just saunter back here, how about that? +Well what about that? +What? +If Stewarts are late in coming with the messages +Yeah +we'll go straight up to Taughmonagh go down the town early in the morning and I'll take you to the shop where they maybe get you a rugby jumper +Mhm. +Whatever yous want, it's up to yous, if yous want your shoes today I'll get them but I was thinking if we'd've went down the town today +this has to be in. +Oh sure we'll, alright, well we'll do it. +What time is it to be in at? +Er what day? +Thursday +Today? +by Thursday the sixteenth. +Oh that's today, right. +Right. +Right. +Right. +See you must have all these +That's alright, well we'll do it this morning, are your socks clean now if you're gonna take off your shoes to get them, try them on? +Do yous know what size of shoes yous take? +Yes. +You're losing weight Kelly Ann. +You're looking well. +See Stephen. +Mhm. +He says this morning I was putting it on. +No you're losing weight. +You're growing you see. +That's why you've lost weight, no no no hold your stomach in you'll hurt yourself. +I bet you when I grow up I'll be tall +You probably will. +Don't be all day up there. +Good dogs now away and lie down over there, go and lie down lie down. +Jesus Christ +Can I go through the front door like that? +Aye. +Oh +Look at that there's a woman goes to help her dead husband right? +And now she's lying dead herself. +look at him kicking her dirty bastards aren't they? +Where are they? +Oh away in a foreign er Yugoslavia or Serbia or somewhere. +Frank Bruno +Aye. +Mm He'll kill Bruno next week. +Eh? +He'll kill Bruno. +See the fight last night? +If Frank Bruno wins +Good dog Sara, aye you're a good dog, yes, you'll go out in a minute, yes. +Yes you'll go out in a minute, to to Stephen, go to Stephen. +Lie down. +What? +Well? +Well well well. +How many wells make a river? +Your big head would make it bigger. +I wish Stuart was here. +Can you not write from around from ten, nine o'clock ? +You could write on it any time but then you're just sitting in all day. +I +No er nine, it's ten no it's eleven to twelve and twelve to two and two to four isn't it, and then four to seven thirty isn't that what it is? +No it goes on +No it doesn't go on and on. +Yes +Is the table top er cleared in there? +Not yet. +come on, come on, come on Kelly Ann, here. +Shut the door. +What? +Are we putting them away? +Yeah oh we'll have to put them away. +We'll all +we'll all er do our bit. +Right now, +Cos we, we we know where to put them now. +Right. +Frozen stuff first. +Frozen stuff goes in the freezer. +Right. +It would hardly go in the bathroom. +Right, come on just lift them out, what's this? +Burgers +Burgers +yes they're nice. +Right. +Chicken fillets, oh lovely, ooh right. +Bacon +Veg veg veg +Veg +What? +Oh yes +Veg. +Ah and I tell you daddy you never keep, and your mum that you never keep +What? +Oh that's lovely, you can keep that in the fridge. +Good. +strawberry, right. +What's this? +Biscuit tin,Right milk +Milk +milk +What have you got? +Streaky bacon. +Do you like streaky bacon? +Right +Erm hold on a sec, what does it say now? +That's okay, there's a sauce +Uncle Raymond +What? +Look. +Aha. +Right, who's gonna get a ? +I'll have to bank the fire up. +What's this here, rubbish?another bag. +Butter in the fridge, excuse me is there another bag out there, box out there? +No er +That's the lot, right. +Now them they have to go down sauce up here you've got no tinned stuff, no? +No. +Right, oh for God's sake. +We did! +Jesus, +dog food goes there in the fridge +You don't need to bank the fire up, I've Oh here's the dog food. +Right put the dog food there. +Right +That's our rubbish bin . +There's your rubbish then. +What the hell do you want a rubbish bin for when you've got a bi a lovely big wheelie bin out there? +And it'll save that corner, it'll make it look nice. +There. +too lazy to take it out. +You come on. +the wheelie bin. +dog doing up here? +They're just sitting there. +Look, here, there you go, right? +Everything's in, all the plugs off right, you get , you get the plates +Well come on, we're wasting time if you want your shoes. +Come on. +Alright, that's off, it's alright, no it's . +Here right. +Right now Stephen hang your cups up and put the knives and forks away while I sort this out. +There's nothing wrong with it for God's sake. +And see if daddy wants what? +I don't know how you +Well, well that's okay then. +You know yous wanna get what we used to have in our house? +What? +You get wee hooks and you hang them up and they stick there right, and just put your cups on it in a row and it gives you more room on the table. +Have you got them? +We used to have, years ago. +Right now, lock the back door. +Oh I need to go to the toilet, hold on. +they're nice. +No they're a bit you know long for her but they're the same size as she was wearing Jean and the other ones were too narrow for her feet. +got one pair. +Oh I thought you said +One +How does it work Stephen? +I think you put, right pull this back +Well it's +All the best. +And where do you put it? +Put the see where the, that wee mark is? +Aye. +Put that in there +Aye. +and +Oh Willy's away to swimming with +Who is it? +That wee lad, and then the one from called about two o'clock he says I says he's not in so and I says he's away to swim or something what time did he go at? +I says he's only away about ten minutes. +Where'd he get the money? +He says that wee boy, I don't know. +I'll when I see him. +I Did you put in the there? +Ah +Oh you cock it first. +No +It goes into there? +Yes. +I'm just +Is she feeding her?she's not giving her veg to the dog. +Are you feeding the dog ? +No. +over to the right or left? +There's my last one +They're all +No. +Johnny sat there and cut the cake there, what did she do? +Lift the cake with her teeth +and then +I got the bus down to Shore Road +Did you? +and then we walked from there round to the court from the Shore Road and then well I stood +Not open? +Mhm. +It's a big store Jean but I mean er they had lovely prints in it that big, you know +Aye +that's the only shop we went to. +We were in Castle Court first, it's a nice place if you wanna see a big military prints +sixty nine sheets, Jesus. +Patch! +Patch! +Is John coming up here then ? +Mhm. +What are you doing Patch? +Eh? +What are you doing? +Are you not supposed to cut it first? +No you do whatever you want +Oh can you?? +Ah Patch +Patch leave it. +I'm gonna tell John his was six pound and Kelly's was seven. +That's thirteen and the five for me for and then the bus fare Where's Raymond away to? +I just took his overalls in, he's doing some painting he says he's finishing the . +And he says, he says , I says don't +No. +otherwise he'll get the sack, and I says John I says it's all . +I said he knows he's in the wrong and he's being nice to the other two because they're not present . +I says it's only for to keep your name right. +And if he's working with you see , I says keep that short +Hope he's not going for any drinking. +I says and stay at home, don't go for a drink. +I says if you want a drink you can get one and have tonight, but don't go over there looking for a drink. +Where's Johnny? +Johnny and Len's away playing golf. +Johnny and who,? +Mhm. +Yes! +And he said he would bring the mince in to do the , like give them the money for a pound of mince and a packet of +Is there any bananas left? +And he's +What can I have to eat love? +Look Jean, look at that one. +Well few rounds of bread. +Is there any in the fridge or are they all away? +I don't know. +Good. +What are you doing Kelly Ann? +I had the back one up in +I had the back one that one. +Oh. +I had the back one first,the back one +What are you doing Patch? +There's a big crowd in the town. +Is there? +Didn't we see the, the, the man collecting the stuff out of the bin, +God help him. +God help you want to have seen the size of him and how young he was. +Was he a tramp ? +Does it work well your game? +supposed to have +Let me see. +. +I can't get . +You're not meant to have it filled, it's a water game +Well maybe they do. +You don't have to have it all filled right up +Er you take out alright just that and lea keep that in I've just got +Pull that yellow thing at the top back towards you. +Now it'll work. +Ooh. +Eh? +I never . +Don't want a cigarette love? +Think you're supposed to fill it up to that mark Stephen says. +Our Johnny said he'd be back at quarter past three. +Ah you've them too far +I haven't. +Alright you haven't. +Is that now better? +It is so I'm just putting it in half now. +Kelly Ann would never admit she's wrong you know. +No, she +Did you go to Stuart's this morning? +Yeah. +Indeed. +What are you doing Patch? +You're a bad dog. +What are you doing? +I'll +Play with Kelly. +Let's go and see if +What er I'll make a cup of tea now eh? +they're not working. +Are they not? +Why are they not working? +Kelly . +What ? +I'm rolling up these things in case the wee dog gets them. +Jesus! +Yes there was a good crowd in the town. +Was there? +There was. +A good crowd? +Good crowd. +Want your dinner Brownie? +Eh? +Well he needs +Pardon? +a good brush. +Away +put your things away . +Come on Watch the wee dog doesn't get it. +so it was +Certainly, come on in. +And what about you Declan? +Now put her down and let her run about. +Is that your out there Declan? +Yeah. +Patch +Is Declan there +It's alright he's only playing with dog look. +Oh, oh. +it's in the bag. +Patch no you're not going down to +Ah +put her down Kelly and let her walk about. +Well then close the door and keep her in the kitchen. +the door. +Excuse me. +Look at this. +Oh my God +Ha ha. +Patch! +Alright away from the door anyway. +No Patch. +over Easter? +Stephen going Easter Tuesday +Easter Wednesday +Johnny's working Wednesday. +Oh, Easter Monday. +Patch stop it! +Can I have a look Stephen? +He sounds like a he sounds like a Trouble is you ooh unlucky. +Has Stephen ?but it's only for erm +A check up. +a check up. +brush my teeth. +Well if you need your teeth seeing to Kelly you'll have to go. +Ooh. +Well I don't want, I don't want my teeth out. +You see if you eat an awful lot of sweet stuff that decays your teeth +so it does, that rots your teeth a lot of chocolate and sweets. +You're better eating erm +I've got a big jar of jam +There's three pound of sugar to every two pound of fruit to make jam. +There's not, that's a wee and that's +Johnny +Aye +Where's Willy? +Eh? +Willy +W would you go and get me a large pack of +No time. +No time. +Ah +Aye, well . +Give us one over give us one over one of your things. +See that +Mm. +like this Who got this for you? +Mm? +Who bought this? +Is it some sort of or something? +You'll have to go and get a pack of chili sauce to get it on. +Who ? +First one come in Declan? +Johnny? +Not are we? +I thought they were staying the night. +No. +A pack of chili sauce, somebody go and get to get it on, it takes about an hour. +and it, +Got that money for me? +Please. +I haven't got it, well you Easter's coming, I know +You said you were gonna give me it and then you didn't. +but Easter's coming. +So don't I get my money? +Oh no it doesn't shoot, let me shoot one, come on. +I've only got one +Oh your wee man from Lisburn called for you. +Did he? +Aye, three o'clock and I says you were away at +Did you ask the wee boy where he got the computer game? +Aye he says he's there's a , tape it over for me +Oh. +Do you know whether er did the wee boy say he'd call back? +Just says och it's alright, I said +Are you gonna go up there and get this sauce it takes hour. +Come on Willy, up the shop please +Aye. +Yeah +A packet of chili con carne sauce and a small onion. +Any dosh? +No I have no dosh. +What is it? +That there, look. +and a small, small onion, not a big onion. +Come here,come here. +Do you wanna go up with him Stephen and get the chili sauce? +And spaghetti and ginger Do you? +Stephen'll go in and get the spaghetti +Here. +Chi erm a packet of spaghetti +and a ginger. +You never brought me a loaf either Johnny. +You never asked for one. +I did. +Stephen come here a minute . +How much is the spaghetti John? +Here, Stephen +and bring me my change. +A pound loaf and a packet of er spaghetti +What? +he's gonna go in the one next door. +Hurry up. +. +isn't it? +love. +Where's Stephen? +Turn it up. +So you had eight of them mm? +Right, turn it down. +Haven't taught you +haven't taught you anything. +Johnny what's been happening ? +Ah? +The hell with Home and Away. +She's pregnant. +She's not. +No female cops. +She's what? +I should think so. +If we got our tea early we could be at the park tonight. +Do you go to school or have you left school? +No I'm, I'm in W I'm in Willy's class +Are you? +well not in his class but +Stephen said he might be going to the Murray. +Do you have a blazer for school? +Ah aye but +No,forty quid like it's +That's too much. +er I, I wouldn't, I told everyone not to get one. +He goes with a big girl called Cathy . +Streaky bacon. +Streaky bacon. +He is? +Aha. +Go away and tell her. +What age is she John? +Who? +Marlene? +Aye +I don't know. +Marlene. +Wish she was. +Did you see George Foreman ? +Who? +George Foreman, the boxer. +No I've never seen +Where's the wee white book Jean I was writing down in? +Alright er Stephen do you want to sit on a stool son T V? +Johnny? +Aye. +It's a rotten con. +. He's on a pound an hour. +Pound an hour? +Aha. +so he is. +Would you, would you do a pound an hour? +I would aye. +in the morning, half one to four o'clock, I was getting three pound an hour +What are you wearing? +Where'd you get that? +Where'd you get it? +What? +Well er have you got your plates in? +Turn that T V down a bit Stephen would you? +Well here turn it down a bit. +Did you enjoy yourself today? +Yeah. +Eh? +Yeah. +What do you think of your shoes? +Good. +Aha. +Look at that there Stephen, look at how thin that man is, my Jesus. +No I hate that, look at that and your da wants you to, you want your da to b buy you them wrestling stickers every day. +Just think a bit the money your daddy spent on wrestling stickers alone for a week on you and Kelly Ann could keep three children alive for weeks. +Wouldn't that be lovely to be able say well I saved the life of one child in the Sudan? +Just one. +Look at the skull. +What? +Oh Jesus so it is. +Well we'll have to wait Kelly Ann, will we do? +Yeah. +Aye. +We couldn't have walked home today Stephen sure we couldn't. +What do you mean? +Well I was thinking of walking home from the centre of the town but then I thought to hell with it. +What? +Very good. +Patch come on here just in case you're sick in here. +What? +What time will your daddy be here at Stephen? +Ah shite! +Do you like your new trainers now? +Are you sure? +That's good Kelly Ann, glad to hear it. +Aye she was sitting, she was sitting listening eh? +Nosy parker. +Did you eat your dinner Patch? +Did you eat your dinner Patch eh? +Good dog. +Good dog you're a good dog. +Is it still raining? +Mhm. +You alright Jean? +Yeah. +Right get the cigarettes out then and we'll have a snout. +It's warm but Jean, you're saving coal. +Where's your glass now? +All the dishes +It's alright Jean I'll fix it. +Can we hear this Jean? +Get down you're not allowed up on the cushions hairs. +No cursing please. +I never got a bite in their da's today. +He never even offered me tea or nothing. +When he left a note I heard him saying to Stephen and Kelly don't give your Uncle Raymond any biscuits. +Don't open them and then he won't be cos her da says I've noticed when we don't take the wrappings off them that your Uncle Raymond won't eat them, but when they're laying loose +It's a shame we haven't got +he's like a vulture in the Kalahari. +Well you don't deserve the biscuit in this house. +what? +Think I'll do them windows inside . +Not now Jean, not now. +What's he got? +He's chewing the bar. +What bar? +The radiator. +My God! +You have it upside down do you not? +I know but +I think you cheat in that game. +I don't. +I don't cheat, I +Well three hundred +three hundred and three hundred and fifty. +See when you do that Kelly so many that fall in. +See that Kelly Ann you wouldn't mind would you please, turning it off, thank you love. +Thanks love. +I just done that and I got two hundred. +Mm. +I've got +Yes but you're, you're supposed to use the plungers Jean. +Yes! +A hundred. +It's to warm up for the weekend it said. +I've two hundred and +I'll show you +Give me and I'll do that one. +That's better, well at least you can see the numbers now Is that the co colleges, no? +It's something about Derry somewhere. +Kelly you're h you're holding it wrong, you hold it like that love. +A hundred +I've a hundred already. +See +A hundred and fifty. +a hundred and fifty. +A hundred and +I've just a hundred now you're winning so far by fifty points. +What one's that? +Aunt Jean, I have two hundred and fifty +Two hundred and fifty +I've lost all my points, just have fifty now. +Yes! +I've a hundred and fifty now. +I've three hundred +Ah ah ah ah +Three hundred. +I've got two hundred and fifty +Three hundred. +Stephen she's going to and Brownie's going to snap her. +That is +That is. +It is indeed. +Oh dear God +Four hundred. +Five hundred. +Six hundred and twenty. +Four hundred and +Four hundred and twenty. +I've got five hundred. +How many did you get? +Five hundred. +Very good. +Play on, play on. +Let's see if I can +Are the dishes put away Jean? +Mhm. +Thank God. +I'd've put you out if they hadn't've been. +I did the dishes +Five hundred and fifty Aunt Jean. +Mm? +Five hundred and fifty +Oh two, four, five hundred four hundred and fifty. +Mhm. +It's a hundred and fifty two hundred, four hundred four hundred and fifty +in the kitchen. +One two three four six hundred seven hundred and fifty Stephen. +seven hundred and fifty +six hundred seven hundred and fifty I've got +one two three four five I've seven men and a and one there's four up there, that's a hundred +Ah the Wonderman's a hundred. +That's your hundred and fifty so these are hundred and fifty one two three four five five hundred and one man oh no that's fifty and a hundred so that's five hundred you've six hundred and one man loose. +Well then you've beaten me Steve that's only a hundred, no that's fifty and one two three four, that's two hundred three hundred, three hundred and fifty I hold. +That's only fifty you see, I thought that was a hundred and fifty. +And that's fifty, and that's the hundred and that's two hundred +Who's winning? +Stephen. +two hundred I've a hundred, two hundred and two hundred +new shoes. +No take it ou take them away. +Leave shoes! +Go walk, bad girl, leave shoes. +Will you leave shoes come on now, come on leave shoes, leave shoes, leave shoes now +Give us them Kelly give us them over. +Yes +That's a hundred hundred and fifty, two hundred +Who's winning? +two hundred and fifty +Me I think +Aye well I mean you can get twenty five pounds +er +I may want me to go and do it now? +Aye. +Yes go on, +Now Raymond, Raymond take Stephen down down to the shops. +Aye go on with him Stephen +Go on Stephen. +or Kelly Ann. +Give us my purse. +Get my purse Stephen, go on down with your Uncle Raymond. +Just +Go on Stephen +I'll be about two mi I'll be two seconds +And what time ? +Get Patch go up. +Watch er watch she doesn't get that in there, quick she's cheating. +Are you done Jean? +Patch, Patch Patch +Did you give her another feed tonight? +Mhm. +Kelly. +Yes bleeding dog. +I'll make a wee cup of tea +Did you tell your, aye thank God, did you tell your daddy the er the big fella was looking into the bin today? +sit there and he done, done +and then, then he got that burger in the bin and he put it in his pocket. +I saw him put it in his pocket, don't know where he got it fucking act the eejit fucking walk about places in the town where he, nobody would stop them, they'd stop me +Ha I told you +Fuck you're lucky you're +Told you it's only a pup. +pup! +Not bollocks you're teaching it +Oh aye +Fuck me +Sit, sit Patch sit down +I've done nowt to it. +Here here +The thing's fucking starved. +Out my way +Bloody sure it's not. +Patch get get away, get over there, get away +Where's the paper? +Where's the paper? +Where's the paper? +Stay there +Lie down He's sat down now. +Now Kelly why don't you eat that +Sit there sit sit +Kelly Ann, put that in there. +Come on Patch, come on +He's in the army +He's in the army and he gets you know, polish and these shoes +Oh aye. +Turn that down a bit Kelly Ann +Mm? +Turn that down a bit +One minute he doesn't want it and then the next minute he's +How's your driving coming on? +It's alright. +Good. +It's alright. +Good. +Er erm the instructor took Sandra out +Mhm +Well then you'll be alright +That wee dog was up at the park this morning +Come on, good dog. +Well they have four cars they have this wee car for, to tow the caravan to the caravan sites on holiday and then he has his new car and the father has a Jaguar and then they've some other wee car just to get them about you know. +Oh it's a company car, he's got a job and there's a company car with that. +I know but it's a company car and he's got it all +Yes. +And er he's two years in the army and thinks he'll stay because there's no life here for anybody, so he's gonna stay on. +Well he says to Raymond but it's not as if . +I swear to God +Aye Then he said to me +he says I don't understand the politics over here. +That boy round the corner. +What did he say? +What time +I run now when I see him coming. +I go up the stairs. +and then Raymond comes to bed. +He says what are you doing? +He says buckets of water and polish, no spit and polish now, it's buckets of water and polish. +Right I don't spit on your shoes your saliva +And then they're saying to keep him going what would you be doing now if you were in camp? +There's only one thing he +Well I'd be er +Oh I walk out of the room now. +They do it for to keep him going and then they'll say he says you know I'm used to getting up at half four and going so many miles every morning for a big jog. +He's harmless like, you know but +but he's harmless, that's what I mean. +He just, he, I think he just tries to impress people you know. +Mm. +It's all army like, constant. +Well how long's he been in the army? +Two years. +And it's a life like, you know, +He's going back to do skiing he's a holiday, and then he's gonna buy, he's got this wee car but the next thing when he goes back he's getting +He's got a Montego like a big Montego. +Well I mean he tells us +So it's not here , somewhere in England. +And he, when he goes over +No well he and I +He thought I was out. +Don't know why +I don't understand it at all. +And like you know +I gave mum thirty five pound because after all you know, I think she needs it he says with the price of food and all and +the money he's on like and he comes +And he sends her money home every week, when he's in the army and he's not here for to help her get the place sorted out and with the price of everything so dear. +Stephen +But er he, he can't wait to get back, well he says he's now ten days to ten days he told me. +a year Jean. +I'm alright like cos I hardly see him but yous have him all day . +young Johnny, both you and Johnny needs +I tell you I'd be in the bed all day . +I'm not listening to him +Doesn't he go out on Saturday night? +have the money. +Well yes, +he says, you know, he says +Kelly leave the dog alone +had no money cos erm, you know,do have the money and all, he doesn't understand I, I don't even get paid until the end of the month +Just tell him +so I'm thinking of staying there for a while +Sure I d I mean the day he took us , took us all out for dinner +Is it a good place to work do you like it? +Aye. +Your daddy told you to knock it off now, if that goes over it's in the fire. +I think I'll stay +Kelly leave the dog alone +I thought the part that, you know, she forgot it er well I know she didn't forget it, she just did it on purpose, but three days after my birthday it's her wee brother's first birthday and she had, she had the nerve to ring me up and invite me to her brother's first birthday party accept and go up there with a present and a card and all and she couldn't even have rang me up to say happy birthday So I haven't +You're teasing that dog. +He does, honest to God. +It is him. +No. +Something you want Johnny? +Do you want something ? +Saturday night and stayed with his friends like and I, I and I didn't like it, I could I was lying in bed I thought I heard noises and all and I had all the windows +Well were you in the house on your own all night? +Aha. +He stayed with his friend. +I didn't know until eleven o'clock that night he rang up and said I'm not coming home. +the girl said. +I must admit I but they rang every day and every night. +Johnny 's here +Stephen? +I've just had a few drinks. +That's what Johnny says to me and then Alison rang me up this afternoon. +How long will you be in? +I think it's just the one day operation +in the morning, then you're out in the afternoon. +To think this time next year left school. +I dunno, he's talking about and he's talking about engineering, I don't know what he's gonna do. +Well he says he's gonna he says round about erm December, January he'll see if and he's gonna ask him if there'd be a chance of him getting in. +Who? +William. +next year. +That's what I'm saying, I says about December, January +Oh yes. +you'll see your man and see if there's any jobs for when he leaves to get in. +Mhm. +This is when +There's good money +There's no work for girls. +But for fellas there's no work. +You have, really have +Do you ever watch that? +That Harry Enfield? +No. +Aye it's good. +It's very good isn't it? +Don't do a a lot of supper for me Phyl, will you please? +You can have what you're given! +I just put the tonic in the same glass is that alright? +Oh that's grand, yes! +It's a bit cloudy ! +Won't be a minute. +to eat. +You're not getting too much to eat anyway! +Oh that's alright. +It is Wednesday, the middle of the week and I mean +Well, this is it! +Monday's a big ba +ca governor! +Can't we get what? +Can't not get anything. +Not getting much ! +Times is hard! +I've got . +We went along to the auction rooms this morning. +Anything good? +Er, well Ray let us in on a little oak table erm and forget to ring up to find out whether +Who was the seller. +yes, got it or not. +Oh, I'll have to ring them in the morning. +But er, they had quite a few computers there, and I said to Ray find out how much the computers are. +Anyway, he said er and there were two or three identical you know, in monitors +Yeah. +and erm the er what's his name? +And they were going +Take a look up there . +er oh right. +Otherwise it'll make a hell of a noise! +Clatter, yeah. +Erm anyway, he said er oh he said they were about thirty two thirty two K those. +Mm. +So I said, oh no,yes! +Looking for a something a little more modest than that ! +But erm +That's not thirty two thousand pound! +well well I said to him, I said, well whatever that is but er he said oh it might be five hu +It might be +no it was five, he said he'll give about five hundred and +Well then +fifty, you know? +cos that's hundred +Ee +and twenty five K that. +Yeah, I was gonna say it's a it's a business model isn't it? +Ha. +Erm thirty two K. +It does do most things. +But I said well he said, oh well you can't play games on it! +I said i I wasn't thinking of that ! +I mean, that's what the kids have got, the Commodores. +Something in between +I mean, you're talking of sort of, fifteen hundred +the two. +two thousand pounds for a computer so +Well, I said these have obviously come out +that's still a good deal at that. +of offices, or businesses +Mm. +perhaps, you know hit the dust! +But erm sort of thought of something in between, but he said he said those will probably go for about five hundred and fifty +Mm. +I think he said. +People will be ju +And they had another one +jumping at them. +be ab , well this is it, yes! +Yeah! +Excuse me! +Have some more. +. +Oh my yeah,. +Got it! +I heard that Brian! +I heard that! +Mm. +Ahhh! +Have you found this chair that he was looking for in that? +I don't think that chair could have been in that book Brian. +Mm, I don't think it is Margaret. +I don't know where I've seen it. +Probably seen it in the Radio Times. +I know where I saw it before! +I've seen it before it was on the television! +On Sunday. +In that programme, that's right! +What time are you preparing dinner my darling? +Now. +Just that like that? +Yeah, that one there. +I've been asked to bring this in like this. +It's not my idea! +You were just following instructions. +It's way I , I , I just follow the instructions. +Phylli wants a drink of orange. +Yeah? +What about Brian? +Yeah. +Champagne or ordinary glass. +Er just a small one. +Erm +Is that too small Phyl? +No. +Is that enough? +Yes! +Good grief! +There's only one slice bread. +Thank you very much. +Very good of you! +You mean a doorstep? +Hey! +Possible! +Yeah, if you finally ! +Do you want mayonnaise Margaret? +I got +Erm +another pot +Yep. +in there if yo +No, that's fine. +there's some +What do you want salad cream? +Oh no! +Horrible stuff! +Mayonnaise isn't it? +No, it's not quite the same Bri ! +Oh! +And you've been eating it all this time! +Oh! +Thank you . +And there's me thought it was all the same! +Oh shut up! +Mm. +Let him ramble! +What are you drinking? +Is that just +Tonic water. +tonic? +Mm. +There's er there's plenty of orange Margaret +No, I don't want any more orange juice, there's too much acidity in it! +Oh right! +So upset the old joints! +Didn't get any bitter lemon this week ee just clean forgot! +No, I prefer tonic water actually. +Which one is mine? +Oh right! +Erm the one without the cling film over. +Thank you. +I haven't put this in there yet. +The one with the cholesterol. +Especially for you Bri ! +Plenty of it! +Yes. +Better be loads of it! +I don't want to see that er +It's really saturated! +! +How's it going at work anyway? +You still working overtime or +Er right +has it calmed down? +up to now I haven't. +Oh I say that, when did I work overtime? +Monday, cos I couldn't go to the gym. +It was late when erm I finished. +Brian, do you want mayonnaise? +If you do bring the other one in . +Beg your pardon? +Do you want mayonnaise ? +No, thank you. +No. +Oh! +Mm! +I think I'll try some of Paul Newman's dressing. +Oh yeah ! +And it's all new systems all new packages! +Our own computer's going. +This is with this new company now? +Yeah. +So we're gonna be on-line to a a mainframe in Ripon would you believe it! +Erm +Yorkshire! +Yeah. +I'll be glad when ours goes! +They got nobody to look after us! +I spend half my time down in town there sorting out the problems! +Plus, you have to do all your own tape back-ups! +So, I'll be glad to see it go! +Mm. +Cos we did have a young man I say young man, he was in his early twenties, he used to do all that, and he left and they never replaced him! +Well, he used to do other jobs as well! +Mm. +And you really mi don't +Miss +realise cos he +some help. +although he di he wasn't fully occupied you realised when they're gone. +Yeah. +You know how much you +Well that's why he went probably! +probably because he wasn't fully occupied and the money was useless! +Oh, he left of his own accord? +He wasn't pushed? +Yeah, he lo , left +of his own accord. +You're welcome. +I've heard you selling the guy that showed you these two manifestos one by the Tories and one by the Labour and the one that stuck in my mind it's that the Labour Party will have a minimum wage to comply with the rest of Europe. +Tories saying, if they have a minimum wage it will tear a lot of people out of work. +And cause unemployment. +What a bloody disgrace when you're in a democracy and they want minimum +Pathetic! +wage! +So you can employ someone for +Peanuts! +ten pounds!no law against the swines! +God help them! +Shows you that . +Oh this is disgusting! +Yes,. +mm. +Mm, mm mm. +Mm. +Mm. +Don't do that! +That's when accidents happen Brian! +That's what oh that's alright for you! +Hit my bloody shoe that will! +I like to know about this polyunsaturated thing? +What do you want to know about it? +Well this Carrie was on today about it. +I didn't put spread on your bread cos you said you weren't takers. +I got that out. +Are you sti , are you taking it? +Still have spread on your bed bread? +No. +Well not not if I have salad on it, anyway. +You didn't +No, I didn't put any on. +It's only Brian's. +It's for me who put it on. +Do you see, do you see what was written on the olive oil bottle and it says it's got polyunsaturates. +Cos I thought it pure, you know ? +It's supposed to be. +Natural. +Oh! +Natural! +They don't put animal fat in it, surely do they? +Mm. +They +Ay +do! +Some vegetable fat +They add a +is very er +loaded. +er, yeah! +Very bad for you! +And when +Mhm. +Brian had his cholesterol test on er little bit of paper they give you with all the information it tells you the only oils you should use are erm olive oil and saffro saffrall +Saffron. +oil. +Mm. +What about rapeseed oil? +Isn't that very +No, didn't say that. +Mm. +Rapeseed that +Well they had a +list of what to eat, and a list of list of what not to eat. +And I'm eating all the stuff I shouldn't be eating! +Not tonight. +Josephine! +So I I only saffra ,saffrall oil now or olive oil. +Mhm. +I didn't realise that +What about sunflower oil? +No not sunflower oil. +No good? +It's better than er animal fat. +All the vegetable fats are better than the animal +Mm. +fat. +Yes, of course! +Be, I mean +Oh well we shouldn't have any rust. +No. +You think you're doing the right thing by eating olive oil pure oils but +Another twenty years, there'll be another turnabout +Ah yeah! +won't there ? +Saying, you should be eating butter! +Should be +Well it said +drinking whole milk! +it said in the paper this week that erm broccoli is the finest vegetable you can eat. +The finest green you can eat. +Mm. +And it helps stave off cancer, didn't it? +Well it helps fight +It did kind of like whatever! +it helps fight the cancer cells it +Mm. +said. +Where fats encourage it. +Er greens. +But it specifically said +Broccoli. +Broccoli. +But when tha , when the doctor was on in the morning, the doctor said it's the same as the carotene in carrot +Yeah, and not actually +I was just going to say they said carrots +not actually +a while ago didn't they? +Was the +Said it's the +Not +same it's the same sort of thing. +And really the doctors have known that for years because a lot of cancer patients they put on er +Diets. +vegetable diets. +They can't have chocolate they can have this erm what's it called? +Not cova , is it coba or something? +This natural chocolate. +They can't have cakes they can't have anything that's got fats in it. +Oh! +One minute they say you can't eat , and then they say that you can eat it! +Yeah! +I think you've gotta try and strike a balance haven't you? +You'll get paranoid if you +Well I think we all are to a certain extent! +It's not knowing isn't it? +Everything in moderation +is my answer . +It's just some people that eat everything they live till they're ruddy seventy or it's makes you wonder! +Yeah, but I suppose they have to go by the general rule +Oh yes! +but I mean, you'll always find exceptions won't you? +I'll go along with that. +Well I'm not gonna last too much longer! +Much longer! +If I eat another thing that's bad for me! +You don't Brian! +You +No, I do , I eat, I eat plenty of fruit and occasionally I'll have a bag of chips. +Very, very occasionally! +We have we have erm fresh vegetables every day. +Mm. +And black pudding! +You're pretty active though aren't you? +No. +No. +You're not very active? +Well I am +But not me. +And you're +I'm up up and down stairs +you're still fit. +I will up I will up your insurance! +Yeah. +Get the policy +and get him to sign before he does anything else! +And stress! +Mm. +Stress is probably a greater factor than has been allowed for up to now. +Yes , but don't women +You won't actually get +give a lot of stress to men? +Pressure! +I'm, I'm just asking the question! +Brian's not here enough to take any sp pressure from me! +I mean, they probably don't! +He's not here long enough! +He works one and half shifts, or two double shifts . +You stick with me! +Well, better than being ! +That'll keep you in black pudding for a while, Brian! +Carol's friends he doesn't though! +He doesn't get paid overtime. +It's erm these friends of ours, Judith and Peter, they've retired. +They +Early retirement. +Oh the one from Manchester? +Yeah. +Oh well. +They retired the sixth of March. +Had they sold the boarding house? +Or have they +No they've got a hotel. +Have they? +Hotel, yeah. +I thought you were gonna say the children are having it. +No, they sold it and er +So what, what are they gonna do? +Nothing. +They've got enough money not to +Worry. +Mind you, they've worked hard for +Mm. +quite a few years, haven't they, to build that place up? +Sold herself to death that girl won't she? +Quite possible ! +Well she's +But +only she's only about forty eight and Peter's about +This yours? +fifty five or fifty +He's fifty five. +six. +She was a heavy smoker wasn't she? +Mm. +But they've got the mobile home +She is a heavy smoker , is she still? +in there. +In the lakes so, they're gonna spend as much time as they can round the +Up there. +the lakes walking, which they love anyway. +Mind you, I think the last few years they they'd sort of erm relaxed a bit more +Mm. +hadn't they? +Mm. +Yeah. +But Peter used to rush home on a on a Sunday for the hotel for for the guests that were coming in Sunday . +Monday morning you see, yes. +Or Sunday afternoon +Oh I see yeah. +Start er, work on a Monday wouldn't they, yeah? +Well it's one of those occupations or businesses that he had to be there more or less +well while he was building it up. +Sure. +Round the clock wasn't it? +It was no holidays for a +But they +few years. +they sold it for quite a bit of money and +Well when he was thinking of selling it before he was talking about three hundred thousand. +Yeah. +So I bet he's come away with a quarter of a million! +Oh yeah, the guy that he hasn't reduced it at all! +He hasn't? +Oh well he's asked them what he was asking for it then? +Mm. +This guy wanted it. +Did it take him very long to sell it? +A chap saw it in November, no! +Sorry, September and really they weren't bothered about selling at that time although they always said if the right offer comes along +Mm. +anyway, they went away and this chap saw it and er he made an offer and Peter flatly refused it! +They went away on their silver wedding was it their silver? +In October Novem +They went on a cruise round the Caribbean didn't they for +It was November wasn't it? +for three weeks or something? +Yeah, well that was their silver wedding anniversary wasn't it? +Mm. +And they came back and didn't hear anything. +Anyway, just after Christmas this guy says er I still want the hotel so Peter said well you better put something down, you ge , better get something so he he went and put fifty thousand as a deposit on it and then said his legal advisers would be in touch and they had a month went by and they never heard anything, so Peter rang up, he was telling me the other day, er, he rang up yeah, go, he doesn't want it you know? +Did he, did he have a the buyer have to sell some property? +No. +Oh! +No, nothing! +Anyway, erm he got a letter, erm when was it? +Gi , he got a letter a fortnight ago to say he wanted a completion date of the sixth of March! +This this this chap +My birthday! +did and erm everything was through the money, everything, went in that fortnight! +Er, they had to be out +So that was quite quick then really +Mm. +wasn't it? +They, they got straight out. +Anyway, er they we , they moved out last Friday so this week when he rang me, they'd been round past the hotel and er there's walls being knocked down! +There's +Oh God! +everything! +So what this people are gonna do with it bu but it's a prime location. +Perhaps he's getting ready +I mean +for the er, Manchester Olympics? +Mm mm mm. +Well, it's quite possible! +Long way to go for that! +Mm. +So +If it ever comes off? +But Peter and Judith are +The thing is, with Peter and Judith the , I mean their house is only a modest house isn't it? +Mm. +Isn't it? +I mean they don't +They've got a house in Manchester haven't they? +Yeah. +Yeah +Mm. +just a half a mile from the +A semi +hotel like. +detached er +. +average +Home. +type of house, you know? +Mm. +And they're quite happy to stop there. +Mm. +Well! +It's a quite a +That's it , I mean they can live on +Well he +their investments I suppose. +well they didn't get a a good income. +Ooh yeah +Oh yeah! +I'll say! +I said to her Judith, when she rang ah, what's the old man gonna do? +And she said nothing! +I said, he won't be able to she said I think he will. +They're having a year +Mm. +off aren't they? +Mm. +Before they +Well +decide what they're gonna do. +I was gonna say they're having the rest of their lives off by the sound of it! +Mm. +I think he'll do something +So, they may Mm. +Mm. +have to. +And be involved in something. +Oh well go back to the +Should be very nice to have the money. +Swines! +I hate them already! +I'm not bitter! +Grinding the teeth! +I mean he he spent a lot of money on the last few years on the hotel cos he had six extra rooms built on didn't he? +Yeah. +He had a wing built on. +I know you said he'd,ma , had all the rooms made +Mm. +en-suite. +Mm. +And er +And that was quite a lot of money +Mm. +there. +The building, then you got the re-fit and you gotta re-furbish it and then he had a +Mm. +four poster bed +A sauna and +A sauna. +It was quite a good little ear , I mean it was a commercial hotel and +Mm. +that, that was it, basically, but think it was +Well how long have they had it? +About seventeen years was it? +Yeah, because it's only half +It may be about that. +a they only bought half of it +Mm. +it was +Initially. +half, it was a big house and the they bought half of it. +Mm. +It worked out and then they only lived in the other half while they were doing it, wasn't it? +Then they bought the whole lot. +No! +They had half +They converted all of it then did they? +They lived in the basement. +That's right, they lived in the basement. +They bought half excuse me half of it and they lived in the basement, then the other half came up for sale so Peter bought the whole lot then +Building mm. +and then converted it into a you know, sort of, a modest hotel. +Mm. +And er +Well obviously he's built up his clientele over the years +Oh yeah! +and er it's paid off. +It's a commercial +hotel so he had all his weekends off. +Yep. +Mm. +And Friday afternoon they could get away +Off to the golf course. +No! +To the caravan or +They do a lot of walking. +They +Do what? +Walking. +Walking. +I mean they're going +Oh! +to Majorca for a week but it won't be to laze around it's for it's for walking. +Mm. +Cos this is the ideal time to go. +Yes, that's right. +Can't think of going on holiday +Before it gets too hot. +abroad and packing your walking boots though can you? +No but, I mean +Well they do, they love it! +I mean they they've got these soft walking boots, I don't know whether you've seen them? +Well Cathy's mum and dad +They're light +do it, you know. +Yeah! +Only at night. +Oh yeah , cos I saw them once! +Mm. +I mean, when you think of ours, I mean there's your she says you'd +Yeah! +your feet are aching +. +No, but if we star , if we did it seriously, we'd have different boots wouldn't we? +We +Mm. +but we don't. +Oh well, alright! +Horrible thing! +Wait till the weather's fine we'll be up there. +Well we used +Well no wonder they go up +to the lakes a lot, cos I mean, it's beautiful +Mm. +up there, for walking isn't it? +Where they've got their van sited it is +Where are they? +Where is it? +I mean +It's erm just by Newby Bridge at erm Newby Bridge. +We say er how can I explain? +Past Kendal. +Yeah, it's past Kendal +Mm. +erm heading towards Grange-over-Sands +Mm. +and they're about +Is that going west is it, or east? +West. +Instead of going +Ah! +It's in +This is to Kendal +Yeah. +and instead of going Kendal, and up to Windermere +To the right, yeah +yo you go +on the map! +On +you go there to the left towards Grange-over- Sands +Yeah. +and Newby Bridge is just around there. +Mm. +But it's a lovely erm location!itself I mean I +Well it is erm it is a proper mobile home and they've got +Oh yeah! +a bit of garden where there's you know it's got like a little rockery and you've got +Mm. +erm picnic area well barbecue area they've +Yep. +got. +Nice! +Where's the photographs of it? +Ooh, I don't know. +Oh! +But then it cost them sixteen thousand didn't it? +With a site. +How long ago was that? +Two years ago. +Mm. +Well about that. +And the they they keep saying to us, why don't you use it. +You see in the lakes mm, I mean you pay much more though +Oh yeah, you pay for the site. +isn't it? +Yeah. +This is the thing. +Cos it is a nice site +Mm. +Got everything piped on there so +Mm. +Is it erm are there are any residents there? +Is it a residential? +No, it's only a te , well I mean you can only stay on it for ten months a year. +Ah yes! +A year so er from the first of March to the first of October you can use the but after +You can go up for the day. +Oh yes, but you can't +Not continuously occupy it. +But you're not +No. +sleeping +Mm. +there. +And they like the erm the water, excuse me!they like the water drained out the site, you know, they like it sort of all the water switched off on, on each van +Oh yeah! +through the winter +Mm. +so there's no there not gonna be any +Freeze up. +any problems at all +Mm. +they can drain the whole system on the site so +I mean you +can go up there if you were going to stay and make a cup of tea and a sandwich or something. +So you're taking your water with you. +Well you'd have to take a car er +Kettle of water. +water. +So is there somebody on the site all the time +Oh yeah +then? +there's a resident +Mm. +erm site manager there. +I think he opens the no, he can't do it on the site cos it's in er what is it? +National Trust. +National Trust land so +Well where they are you can only see a , one other van can't you? +Yet there's loads there, it's just the way the . +Oh it's on an elevated spot is it or the +Well sort, there sort of like little coves aren't they and they're you can only just see one van from where they are. +Oh that's nice because it's +Mm. +private . +Oh yeah! +I mean we had er +It's like being in the woods isn't it? +marvellous time didn't we? +Mm. +It was so quiet! +Erm, until it rained and when it rains +And then it drums on the roof then! +Ahhh +Mm. +Bloody hell, I mean you +Especially in the night! +It's all it's all trees. +But the they're fine in the summer. +But they're hellish cold in the winter! +Mm. +Yes yeah. +Erm but they are colder than a caravan! +Well , I mean they're only thin walls aren't +Mm. +they? +But cos +Ooh aye +they're so long erm they always seem colder than a caravan although it didn't +We've never been in the winter that was whe I wouldn't know! +No, I mean when we went up it was it wasn't erm winter time it was late summer wasn't it, when we went up? +It wasn't so warm. +I love +Mm. +a bit of cold! +And i it felt damp. +Mm. +And if you wake up in the morning and all the condensation +It didn't! +Oh the windows were, but it never felt damp! +It did to me the first time we stayed. +Just weren't used to it you see. +Well there wouldn't +Oh yeah. +be any heating in the bedrooms, I don't suppose, would there be? +Just a +No, it didn't have a radiator in the bedroom . +The heaters are erm, in the kitchen or the lounge area I suppose. +Well it's +Nice to spend time in the in the warm weather though. +Mm. +I think I would have bought something a bit more substantial at it, I mean, if you've that amount of money, they must have a fair amount of money +No, they didn't, though, no. +The money was tied up. +Well er, I know what you mean +It was all tied up. +and I understand that because I, I'd probably feel like that, I'd sooner invest in bricks and mortar even if were only a little end-terrace house +Yep! +Yep. +than a caravan or a mobile home on a site. +You see they, they've only got so long on this site with that van +Mm. +and then they've either got to replace the van +Mm. +Pardon me ! +But erm, on that site, he's pretty good the manager there. +They've only got six years. +No! +Tha , as long as you keep it +Oh yes! +maintained +Mhm. +Mm. +they'll let you leave it on longer. +But +They +otherwise is it normally just a six year +Well I thought it +Normally. +was ten? +No, no! +It's normally six years then you replace your vans on the sites. +That's the way +Oh it's not six years! +You'd tell us anything +It doesn't seem very long does it? +For six +Peter told us it was six +You couldn't spend sixteen thousand and leave it there for six years! +Course you can! +And wha you'd have to re +It was longer than six, six years! +It wasn't +I think it was ten years! +Take no +Ah. +notice of him! +It was six years Peter mentioned! +You're not a reliable source +No he didn't! +of information Brian sorry! +Get your facts +He mentioned six years to me! +Rubbish! +He mentioned six years! +Rubbish! +He mentioned six years to me! +Rubbish! +I'll tell you! +I'll mention six years to you! +You won't live another six years to find out! +Oh oh oh God ! +Kept up with the insurance policy! +Ahhh ! +Cooking down to you boy! +Might I go to the toilet mam +No! +No, no! +Take that microphone with you so we can hear what your doing! +Will you stop it? +You haven't still got it on have you? +No! +Hopeless with that on because of course, he's been wearing a pullover all the time and initially he had it clipped on the right hand side of his belts and of course , with that switch where is it? +The red switch there being right on the end when you depress that the play switch goes down as well. +But with him having on this side, because he's so blooming awkward he's been pressing the play switch and of course, so the tapes been turning round, haven't bothered to che , so you know, he was sort of saying well well play that tape and I'll write their names down of the people as they speak, just the first names, you know so there's loads of +loads of blank spaces on these tapes ! +You're best just putting it on a table Margaret. +And the rest of the time he's had this, sort of on, on the pullover here and of course it's so sensitive that it it picks up every rustle! +I mean he was talking to Norman over the fence the other day and it sounds like gunfire +In in the microphone you know ! +Every now and again the voice comes in. +I mean, it was a windy day as well and I don't think that helped because the wind was sort of blowing into the mike but er and when he took it to college there was this noise all the time, he must have had it clipped under here somewhere! +I said, well you know it's gotta be +I'll put the kettle on for you Brian. +it's gotta be outside the clothing ! +But erm +Well it's, it's alright, I mean +Well er, I think probably, I mean i so , this lady came on Friday and she's coming on Friday of this week to collect it or collect the tapes +Mm. +and she said you know, use as many as you can which which we have done and a lot of blank spaces on them ! +You haven't got er +Er +Top of the Pops on one of these? +Mm mm, no no, no. +No? +Or Radio Two,tried but er but erm he's got sort of better. +I mean, today we've been to well we went into Henry and Norman's and they were having a chat and it's better if you're just sitting down like this with a mike just you know +Oh yeah! +not attached really because it is very sensitive +Ooh ooh yes! +and I mean, unless yo , and they said don't clip it near your throat because it would I felt like clipping it round his throat ! +It er it would interfere with the erm +Are you taping about that ? +with the reproduction so +You've gotta go you have! +You're coming very close Brian! +She's trying to get rid of me, I'm sure she is! +You're not are you chuck +She doesn't mean it really! +No, course she doesn't mind! +Anyway, how about a car boot sale on +But +Sunday? +Ah ah ah! +Oh no! +You're not to mention car boot sales! +No. +That +Really? +No. +Did yo , have you been to any more since +No! +No. +I've done three meals tonight now, you can do something! +Three? +Yeah. +What three? +Tea +Teresa's +supper lunch tomorrow. +That's not meals! +That's an i one on it's own. +Will you do without them then? +Then you'll soon find out if they're meals! +I've got yucky butties tomorrow! +Is this a have you been told off? +No! +No. +No, she's always shouting at me. +Ah! +Egg sandwiches tomorrow. +I think it was the a very nice +Oh that's lo , beautiful! +Sandwich filled . +Could of had an egg one of mine. +Don't you like egg? +I like egg sandwiches +No. +when the egg is warm! +Oh! +Oh how common! +He doesn't get them when they're warm! +No. +Unless I make them! +Cos they smell +They s smell don't they? +Yeah. +Put them straight in and er get a bendy sandwich. +Yes. +And then when you take them out tomorrow +Egg and cress used +that +to be thing. +they're all +! +stuck to your +and you have to press them down anyway to make them all stick. +Yeah. +What about a fried egg sandwich they're the ones! +Yeah! +Oh! +Ooh how common! +A runny fried egg sandwich! +Oh oh oh ! +Snotty fried egg sandwich! +Oh Brian! +Oh I, I hate it! +I mean if eggs aren't cooked properly for me +It's alright for sticking +wallpaper down though! +It is awful isn't it? +Oh dear! +Will you stop it! +Do you get the Express? +No, we don't! +Why? +What the paper you mean? +Yeah. +Good grief love! +Oh well, it's a shame then you can't go! +Hey? +Oh well +I want a +We do make exceptions +I want to go! +What's wrong with the Express! +Well you're not going! +Well it +No, off the back. +You're not! +No, you could ask! +Listen this is a bloody good paper this! +Only if it's got a special offer in it! +Just look at the headline! +Yeah ! +Andrew and Fergie split! +No wonder +Who cares! +they didn't put Andrew has finished +whilst they've taken the +Who cares! +Yeah. +I do! +Good paper that. +I like the crossword and the target. +Ha ha ha ha ha ha . +I can do them before I go out. +Would you like a +Margaret would like a ? +Er no I don't think I'll have one. +Well you can't fancy a Cointreau cos erm +No, no it's, it's +Why? +it's alright . +Ooh hang on! +No, wait wait +The Cointreau gone? +Er Margaret's driving so +Oh no, you can have a little tinsy winsy +Oh I'll have a little tinsy winsy then. +Can I have one Phyl? +I hope you've got that thing switched off! +It's come to the end of the tape now anyway. +Right +Phyllis, would you like a little tinsy winsy one? +Yes , why not! +I'm always having a tinsy winsy one. +I thought you said it was in the Express? +This is the Express magazine, Sunday magazine. +Oh! +Oh, beg your pardon! +Go on! +Carry on sorry! +As you were! +Right +You said you liked +There are. +Mr another tinsy winsy one! +Behave yourself ! +Antiques day +Antiques day at a the , this is the all the places it's at this Sunday and it's er , in Chester. +And you +Oh! +take something along there and they will value it free of charge providing you've got a copy of the Express! +Oh! +Now I see your reasons! +Ner ner ner ner ner! +We've got one ! +That's yours. +No, we're going! +Oh +Have you had +Ten pounds and ten P please. +How's that? +It's there somewhere! +Thank you. +Cards for everything now isn't it, hey? +That's it, yes. +Cards and buttons! +Press the wrong button and you've had it! +Well that's it, yeah. +After all, it used a be a tenner for +I'd be no, I'd be no good! +run to town ! +I've no patience me. +Okay, love bye ! +thank you. +Thursday's about the worst day isn't it? +It i well i , I know you've gotta come +Tomorrow is great. +Friday but er +Ooh yes, Friday's not! +I was going to come Friday but I don't know what, is it bad compared with the other days then? +Ooh I think, yes! +Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday is it? +Absolutely! +Yes. +It seems to be a +Yeah. +heavy day! +Never mind! +Never mind! +What are you doing today then er Eric? +Polish those two. +Ooh they're polishing, yes. +I sta , I stained them in a hurry on er last Friday night so I, I I hope I haven't missed any. +Cos I wanted them to re settle for a week before starting on them. +Yes can be a mistake hurrying the job can't it? +Yeah yes, that's what erm +We've all done it. +Early? +Good Morning Ray? +Morning Mary how are you? +Yes, alright. +Is that you in the flash car pushing my little one out of the way? +car park. +Oh it's awful isn't it, on a Thursday? +It's terrible! +It is. +Ee, you , actually I left my boot open and there were five cars behind me, so he said well if we get our spaces nicked . +That's right. +I still got a free one. +Isn't there a mail box here in the college? +I don't think so. +It's on the way +Oh! +Should be one! +Would of thought +Well, are those your chairs? +Yes, ah, these +Are they? +Ten minutes to go. +It's too high get it back on the chair! +It'll be too high. +Yes. +Oh I see, yes yes yes. +Well it's so many things! +It's higher than the one I had because erm the base is obviously I just had the springs going across didn't I? +Yeah I, I sa I've erm cos I'm gonna reduce the +Mm. +base, you know the spring unit what you were talking about. +That's right. +If you can get them up +Yeah that was +high, +Yeah. +So I can +So you done it with springs, that's right +Yes +yeah. +just you know +Is it just cos it's you're a lady anyhow, I mean she co +I mean a +probably not big enough for a man. +I wouldn't say I wouldn't say anything Gwyneth, to me i , I'd be quite happy! +But then Joan is speaking on how it should look. +What she said was the head was +Oh I see, too high? +Yes. +Well it wouldn't be for you would it? +Well not really. +It depends on doesn't it? +Those Ercoles that we got, those wing they're too they're too low for me. +I think they are +Surprising, yeah. +inches. +No, they're not made for a tall man er, you know my +No. +wife's quite +and your +happy but my head's like this and I I bit disappointed really +Well that's the trouble! +I thought that they were the wings were gonna come up you know, the, the old type that kept the draught off. +Which +You wouldn't have draughts, you have double glazing! +Well that's the thing you see but er +If you have double glazing. +Oh dear! +Now I've +No, but erm +Well I +That's what I anticipated, but that, yes that's lovely ! +Be quite happy +She said +with that. +she said we didn't but she's on her own. +I'm not +Yeah. +but she's nice isn't she? +She'll be al , yes, that's right, yeah, yeah. +You see these are one size anyhow, cos +The wings, are they? +When it comes in it's hand made which +Yes, I see +and he made it, you see I mean i it cost over twenty years ago told me I think those were too small. +Small, yes, they should of been a bit +Well, I mean she knows that +deeper really, so that the +knows that well I'm not I mean, why should I? +It's different. +Nice! +Yeah. +Not only that erm I mean you could +I think she'll be very happy. +Yeah, I think so. +Yes. +I think, you know in +certain cases you've gotta say to Joe, well you mean that's what the lady wants now you know those Ercoles I did? +Well she convinced me to start off with foam, you know webbing on the foam and I said well +Yes. +she said it's a lot cheaper and easier, so I hadn't got the springs at that time +No. +You re , you really +but then er somebody said don't do that you've gotta think what the value +That's right. +of how it's +Definitely! +supposed to me. +See, I did it +So +once +in the end I persevered +when I first came when I first came, that was the one thing that I was like that was the fact that that I might be pushed that way whereas I only +Mm. +really nice he's thinking that I mean that, he couldn't never lift the seat up. +Oh it's gorgeous! +That's why I love the sprung hair and the horse hair ideally, you know I love it! +I mean, do you know +Now that'd be better for me +better for you +but then I as I say, you don't cater for every height on the +Whe +chair do you? +When I went to Noreen's if I make that to be used with a cushion or without +Mm. +she can always put the cushion over the +Yes. +and then take it off the chair . +Well it , ah well, of course the other thing you'd have to do to do that is put a top +Oh I'll do that in there. +Oh that's what you're doing is it? +I've got enough material. +Oh well! +I've got enough material. +So you're gonna give this a top stuffing? +Yes. +No, I'm gonna give that a top cover for this . +Yeah. +That's what I want. +I see, just one, I see yeah. +That's right. +So all you want is a bit of erm +on the side you know, piece of wadding +Wadding. +I've got the both types. +Well that's great! +I've got the narrow and I've got the thick. +That's great! +So she can please herself can't +Mm. +she? +And you can make +I think the +that loose. +Yeah, and then +Good! +she, if she wants a cushion she can put it on, and +You're happy! +Joan's happy! +That's right. +Everyone's . +That's a good idea that! +That's, that's got one. +You've got in effect, a dual purpose +Mm. +chair haven't you? +I if I set it up there +It's too low is it, for you? +Well +I see yes. +The height from there +Oh yes, I see, yeah. +isn't it? +Mm, yes. +It's that comfortable it's actually going off to sleep here! +You'd better get some work done you know . +I had to get her out of bed this morning! +He was erm very lugubrious moustache, and he looked +Oh! +oh that was the character +he played, you see. +that's how he . +Yeah, but he was er, opening this thing, this particular day in Buckley so big name, you know ma , most of them they watch it all the time you see. +for the rats. +Ooh! +Excuse me, you've ha , you've tripped your and the you know, the all lad, he said, no it's not worth it for me, so I'll be going before you draw it. +That is true! +right, right he had never . +That is true! +You give me your , that I'll shall give you this ring so I went is that right? +Well I I was so shocked! +My God, all that money! +And he's +Well he +No. +Nothing . +No, you know,the +honestly when you +I mean most people here just said +yeah, yeah not having it! +It's +They go. +Not interested with the in the you have to give ten percent. +Another chap, he's a big name in a church in Buckley he was a an old neighbour of ours and I never liked cos he used to himself with a bowler hat on they are only back twenty years, you know, bowler hats! +I got in you know, on this guy he's oh no, no, he said he he'd got one at home, he said I can't afford blooming two! +Oh! +And I'd got I'd bought one of his! +And I thought oh! +Well that's . +I pinched +They are bad! +I said, well even when you you know, I do the finishes +Yes. +Yeah. +he come and collects them then but, but normally and and people +Mm. +But I +Oh yes! +mean well why doesn't he I mean I don't like Peruvian +No no. +I mean, I told +Well I mean, he probably ate a horse or anything +stopping this slaughtering shipping them over to the France or anything any more he's burnt their +blinking +Well now it's the +It's disgusting. +time of year I mean he you just . +Oh I usually give but I do get a bit tired of it sometimes! +But now +When they get hold of me twice in the one day you say hang on I've just given to you the bus ! +That's right, when you want to get your bus home +They say, all alright! +Are you having a a reverse effect? +It's the lady what's your name again? +Teresa. +I've only been here three years now! +Yes, I'm okay. +No, I don't yo , remember +Ah. +this with our like, first year last year erm, er she lives somewhere near Paula. +Oh! +But she was a funny girl! +But erm very, very quiet, you know? +She was good on this! +But, she dropped out, but anyway I sa she'll say oh you're whistling aren't you, and singing? +I said, oh I lo I love it, I lo , I said I know it sounds awful thought no more and then Shirley said to me when she'd gone she said, she came up to me one day she said I wish to God he'd stop that bloody noise,this time ! +So I told my wife, she said I told you, she said, you drive me mad! +Did she? +Do you drive her mad too? +Oh well! +No, I like to hear a bit of music to go along. +That's all. +Oh yeah. +It doesn't sound like music to anyone else ! +No wonder she thinks ! +I'm sorry about that she said ! +She's got no chance has she? +She +No, especially . +You were stationary? +I wasn't I didn't see the herfs, dum Er, the hoofs +Not your car? +Oh no! +Oh I thought somebody +No +said it was you! +I heard er er der at er erm parked in the other car park I heard the hoofs go bang! +In the +But he was sitting in the car was he and and she came and back into him? +But she said he wasn't there when she started to reverse. +And that +The golden rule is if you're reversing you must look behind you! +Yeah, but she said she did and he wasn't there. +Yeah, but a it's too bad ee,yo yo I don't know +I think the +you when you learnt to drive when you came to reversing you're told you must look +Yeah. +out of that rear window all the time not using your rear view mirrors look once as well. +That's what a lot of people do,the , they look once and then turn forward and bang! +It's fatal! +Cos anyone can whizz in behind you! +And she's got no chance if she told the truth! +Of course, the other thing, if she says oh well I er didn't know this feller was moving and er +Yeah they're never going +to thump him,. +Cheeky devil! +My God I wouldn't have the gall to argue would you? +You'd say I'm I'm sorry +there. +oh! +He said well what have, what am I gonna get him poor feller! +Ted is it? +Told her, Ted +Yeah , yeah. +He just said, I stood, get in the car then as +Yes. +he came to the corner stop and she reversed straight into him! +And she's arguing? +She's arguing! +Er +In the butchering department. +So how you going, alright Ted? +Oh fine! +Apart from the drama? +Apart from the drama! +Yeah, Chris is er what's his name? +What's the forgotten his name now! +Is it +er, I don't know what his his +It isn't Ted is it? +No! +I don't know his name, this is +It's gone now +the dentist, +yes. +But +It is a it's a name but I don't know what his first name is. +How are you Fiona, alright? +Okay thanks Ray. +So is it badly smashed this car or is it just the bumper? +Well it's not, I want the bonnet sprayed +She's got no chance! +No! +None at all! +A a just +I just want it bonnet, I want it to go in, bonnet spray job and have a look at her face! +Instead of her saying oh and what have I done, I'm sorry! +And er she says,sh she said you came round the corner too quick, you weren't there when I looked in the mirror! +So she says right what's your name? +So I said Lesley, she says to me are you in agreement with her? +I says all the way back. +And he, he +And he was stationary was he? +he just said he was sitting there waiting to ma +Well if he she's got no chance! +waiting for her to see what's coming! +He was stopped! +She wasn't looking! +She said, but, well you were going up to, around that +Oh yeah! +corner too fast! +Bet she never looked! +Said no way! +She didn't look! +Should never reverse unless you're looking out that back window! +Well she said she did and he wasn't there. +Couldn't have done! +Oh he was! +But but but he was there! +What did you do just carried on? +I put the brake on and locked them, I shouldn't of done! +So the bumper's torn off the back +Yeah. +the front wheel i , she'd gone sort of along it an , and +Yeah. +hit the head and, and my front wheel it's always the front bumper! +Yeah. +And the tyre was going down then she said I didn't do that ! +I said, what! +I didn't get you! +Only hit the bumper, I thought well what's happened, I said? +Look at the mark on the wheel! +Oh I, I didn't think I'd done that! +Now, she went off then, she heard my address, and my you know er +For insurance and that. +Cheerio! +I'm stuck in the road! +I had to +change the tyre, it's, you know I see it's the my God, I've heard some good-uns in me but people are like that you know! +They can wriggle out of something, they +Yes +you know, they will! +I did the er there was a an ambulance came down the road in front of a bus you see, and a chap which was on the cor , side the road and he he went like this so I stopped and the ambulance came round and turned into this building site and I and while we were sitting there bang! +Hey! +Oh no! +What happened? +I jumped out the car young girl had a car that erm back of my car and dented the boot a bit and er her car was shambles! +Folded up. +Well was it dark or something? +Didn't she +Mm? +was it dark? +No, it was perfectly broad daylight and lunchtime . +And a , as she went back I sa +Oh dear! +You know? +Thirsty yes? +Lots, lots, lots of ! +What d'you think,? +Mhm. +Lovely colour, but I like it. +Nice and old fashioned, ha? +Mm. +, she won't move away from +What, she's in a an ordinary +Ordinary house, yeah. +But it's lovely inside cos he had it all done out for her but she just won't move! +I can understand it, it's her roots isn't it? +Suppose he goes +You know? +back all the time to see his mum +Oh +does he? +yeah, yeah! +Yeah +Yeah +they er and Harry Secombe lived down the road from me and he was in Cheam, and he was erm +That's right, he did! +he was there years and years, and then suddenly +Surrey, isn't it? +about three years ago he uprooted and went to Guildford. +He lived right on the main road he was very vulnerable! +But he had a lovely house! +Ha! +Yeah! +And John's been in there, he's done work for Harry Secombe in his house. +Has he really? +Yeah. +Oh! +Hot Chocolate,Cho erm Cliff Richard erm who's the other one? +There's the King singers. +Done a farm house for one of the King singers in er Oxford. +Yeah! +How did he +Harry Secombe , I think is in the we get the Sunday Observer you know, they have the +Yeah. +magazine, there's a +Mm. +a room of my own I think it was, it +Mm. +shows you the houses of, you know +That's right, yeah. +it's usually writers or, in this case +But the one he had at Cheam was a lovely house! +Yeah. +It was right on the main road and he was there years and years and years +Mm. +and years! +But they're and the +As long as I can remember. +the theatres and +in no! +No, no! +Well if he lived in +It was right in the in the road +Wales , that'd be too far wouldn't it, to travel +Oh yeah! +you see? +So he +So +er, well,Guil erm he wanted to er, go to Guildford I presume because that's his vicinity for doing all his work you see? +Should be able to commute and +Yes +that. +that's right. +But erm lovely house he had +But you're +in Cheam! +you're, you're from Elephant and Castle aren't you? +John is from Bermondsey. +Where's ? +John is from Bermondsey. +I was born in in er,Stockford , Brixton. +Brixton? +Yeah. +Oh, you're right down the road from Margaret! +Yeah. +With Croydon and erm +With John and John Major John Major. +Oh John Major is there! +Erm well Maggie, she she +Oh Brixton, we +I mean she's only moved to erm +Chelsea now, isn't it +Er +she? +er,ye , no she was at erm +It's on a new estate +Oh dear! +wasn't she? +Er, and +er +they, they wanted to get rid of her, they didn't want her there! +So she got, they got rid of her! +Oh dear! +I've lived there, Herne Hill it was, near Herne Hill. +Mm. +But I erm I was born in West Norwood,nes ,wo West Norwood but where John Major took you to last night on his tour +Well I didn't see it anyway so +you see I, I lived in er er which is a turning off . +Oh! +Lived there till I was about fourteen. +Brixton, it was lovely then! +Yeah. +Ooh it's slum +But after the war +now! +Oh it's terrible! +Well you know Thornton Heath? +It's where Ma +Yes. +well Margaret's brother still lives there. +Well all around there, Streatham all round there. +Yeah. +Yeah , Streatham, Thornton Heath. +Yeah. +Erm I mean, it's a nightmare now, the traffic! +It's the not the traffic, it's the bloody blacks! +Lot of coloured people +Yeah. +there, yes. +Yeah. +It it's just a league of nations there and every shop is black people in Brixton, but it were a lov , they used to able to get on a a two, three, a fifty nine, or a hundred and fifty three to Oxford Circus on the bus you was there in twenty minutes! +Cos I used to +Ooh yes! +take all the gowns up to er Marston's , Selfridges all the gowns that I used to make that we used to make. +If it hadn't of been for the war I'd have been a model! +I mean, don't look at me now! +But I would of been a model. +Just about to say you've got the figure. +when I was training. +Look, I haven't now love! +No, only for except, ex-directory! +Ex +Excel not +If only the +But ah! +war when the +Yeah. +war started in nineteen thirty nine it was declared on my birthday third of September. +Naturally! +I started it all! +And er the first bombs that came over Britain they must be erm our company got it! +First, you know +Mm. +just bombed to the ground! +Oh yes! +Ooh! +And I just couldn't so, and anyway, so I joined up. +Yes. +So that was my life, I only had about two years in +Yeah. +civvy street! +Went to college for dressmaking, but there we are! +Life! +I used to live in Brixton but then it was so sentimental last night because John Major he took us all round there because that's where he comes from you see +I see. +a erm that was his erm constituency. +And erm he lived erm, a few doors away from us but, well then I didn't know that until +No. +last night! +I see. +Ah same +I didn't know! +street! +Only +no, a few do a few streets +A few streets away. +Sorry! +A few streets away. +Oh I see, yeah! +Yeah, yeah. +In +Oh! +Road, he lived in Road which was off Lane and erm what was the other one? +We lived in . +Erm they had a lovely big old Mrs Bridges houses my grandma +Victorian +had the house. +houses , yes. +And there was a placement first floor, second floor, and where they used to be starting to live beautiful house! +Mm, oh yes! +I mean, I didn't think so at the time but when I think of it you know, and later when I came back after the war we , oh my God! +She died my grandfather died and blacks got it just sold up! +Mm. +I broke the ,orh +Yeah, yes, yeah. +It was a lovely house! +Well there you are! +But it was lovely! +Everyone wants to get away now don't they? +I mean Margaret couldn't go back it's er +I would what? +It's too the +Hey? +hurly-burly there, it's just a terrible place! +Where did your mum li , come from? +Er, ooh yes, that's right +Your mum, I take it we're talking about? +Croydon. +Croydon. +In East, East Croydon. +Murder! +It's not so much that , it's getting through! +Used to take a time just to get home at night! +I know! +Wandsworth +Oh! +just down from Maulden! +It's murder! +We we because you went in +And there's the speed! +the morning +Well, where John lives like, I forget the name of the road now, you just pass Thornton Heath you know turn +Yeah +left there +it's Streatham all that way. +and this this long road goes er must be two miles, more than that! +Tooting Beck? +No, no, it's it's Thornton Heath, that's his address on the, just +Yeah, but well, I see yeah +this road er, a few shops and then you turn left at John's road but er, and he there's two +private houses, two bungalows that were built twenty +Yeah. +years ago in, in +Yeah. +amongst all these old +Yeah. +ones you see. +Yeah. +But when you come to turn into his drive there's the ca ,you know the cars behind you doing sixty odd ! +Put the brakes +I know! +on to warn them and then +Oh! +zoom! +Oh I know, terrible! +And then when you wanna get out of his drive +Yeah. +you've gotta have someone there to to back you +Yeah. +out because +Get your nose out otherwise they'll have it straight away! +And he said John said, oh yo , you can hear the bumps here all the time and the +Yeah. +the buses and that,the these cars are parked on the pavement +Yeah but what +bang! +you, I bet you if your John if if if he said that it's mostly blacks! +They all live there! +Well he he is he, he is quite +It's a black community. +prejudice, John and er the the +Yeah so am I! +there are a lot of erm +So am I! +there's one or two. +But I always say well +I can't stand them! +there's plenty of bad whites! +Aren't there? +Oh there is there is +You know I in fact +But +the times I've been done down in my life it's been mainly by the white people! +Yeah, well John's been done down by the black people! +Endless +Oh no, John's +pakistanis, he can't bear them! +he's had a a couple of bad experiences of +Two! +Two! +and so I suppose it puts you off, but there you are. +Took all our profit they did, the bastards! +Yes. +God forgive me for swearing! +I like him +Oh! +he used to be in it was power to the people +I he's unbelievable! +Is that +Yes +the one? +that's right. +And and then +The power +then he was +and er +in that serial about last year. +He done Me and My Yes. +About liverpool. +Erm +That's him isn't it? +Oh er B H er, B G H! +That's his play he's in now is it? +G B H, grievous bodily harm. +Oh yes, yes I I read the, yeah +Now he's in Me and My Girl now with the +er, with his wife, I was I didn't think he was married to her. +She's with the girl who's in that series but it's like the American one with she's got a male housekeeper and she it's duri , it's ju it's only a comedy in the afternoon. +Oh, I wouldn't of seen that, I don't know! +Or evening, early evening +I don't I don't English actress is she or +Yeah, yeah, blonde. +Oh I don't know her. +Lovely she is! +Perhaps I know the face but +Oh you will +you know. +if you see the series, remember +Yes. +the series Honor Blackman was in it. +It's only just gone off. +Oh that, oh I know yes! +And she had +It's gone. +this lady er, in the house, it's American, is that the one? +No? +With Honour Blackman. +Honour Blackman was the mother a grandmother +I saw one one episode +I think it was her daughter had a +Saw one. +and then there was erm the feller who was the housekeeper. +Yes. +I think I saw a bit of one. +And it, well it was her that he was married to but i he was he couldn't get over it, it was such a shock to him! +Mm. +You know, it was really you could see +I like him. +he was so surprised! +He'd +Wha +come a long way that man! +Oh yeah! yes, he's a +Cos it was +a classical actor isn't he,? +Oh he is! +Well they're busy doing King Lear and they went on stage. +That's right, yes. +That's right! +We've got the tape of him +He couldn't believe it ! +in King Lear. +Yes. +With Laurence Olivier. +Couldn't believe it! +Mm. +Oh yeah! +And this feller who's +Well if they've got that grounding +was +they can diversify. +Yeah, he's very +They got that +he very versatile that man. +I mean, I saw him when he first started as a schoolboy in erm oh a series with erm the army series what's it called? +Erm +Oh, that's right yes! +Yes, you're right +oh dear! +he was in that, yeah! +Yes he was. +curly, a slight curly headed feller used to be in erm a series at the +Tony Selby. +That's right! +Then he said to +Get Get Some In. +he said I've, that's right! +Get Some In. +Then he said I fink +The RAF. +I fink so he said +how many F's in fink +So he's got his nose to him like that and he says two so Robert Lindsay says to him free! +Did you see the other one that was interviewed on Terry Wogan? +No I didn't see +Is it Ni is it er, Lyndhurst is it? +Oh yeah! +Yes! +First time I've ever heard him +Yes. +very quiet. +Now John I said to +Very quiet. +John, he was in Prince and Pauper in his young days. +And of course he really sounds so well spoken. +Yeah. +Oh, he's, he's lovely! +And erm he was in Prince and Pauper and John could remember him, he was the +Was he? +Prince in Prince and the Pauper, as a schoolboy! +What the film you mean? +No, no, on the television! +Ah! +I never saw +Yeah he was. +that +Prince and the Pauper, oh God donkey's years he wouldn't have +Said he was a child then, did he? +I do , I can't ever remember it. +He, he mus be thir +All I can remember Butterflies. +He's over thirty now. +Oh +Yeah. +yes. +He's in Butterflies. +No, it's long before that. +And he was like that wasn't he? +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah. +But, he's a sa , he's a lovely person! +But he isn't thick he's great! +He likes his family you know, he's a +Yeah , I think he's lovely! +won't have anything to do with the the press, you know he +No. +seems to keep them +well away, yeah house. +Yeah, that's right. +I don't blame him! +Wonderful trees, there's one that that used to be something called +Yeah. +a Tobby and they do this body camping, they have to do it early in the morning or late at night when it's cool and it produces this liquid which verbella it's already fermenting and at this +Oh yeah. +rate you have to add at first, you can drink it while it's fermenting, it's quite a refreshing drink a bit tart to my taste but when it ferments out it becomes er a liquor called Arak which is their version of . +Oh I've heard of that. +Where do you say, Sri Lanka? +Oh dear! +I've been there. +So have I. +Just last week. +This is this +Ah +week were you? +Yes. +My +Well +daughter lives there. +Oh that's nice! +I used to go through once a month. +Did you really? +It's not a laxative is it Pat? +It's like a piece of wood from Sri Lanka. +Thank you very much Pat. +So it should be . +Actually this week this week I sent a a telegram from the Gall Place Hotel to Gwyneth on our wedding anniversary. +What, you were there this week? +No, this week many years ago. +Oh really? +Yes my daughter went, went to Gall Place Hotel swimming pool a lot. +Yes. +We went to erm we went . +It's very nice sitting on the ver veranda looking out to sea. +Has it all gone? +Thank you Pat. +Under the palm trees, you know. +I know we've been to er Colombo, near the we went there camping. +Did you? +Yes. +It's a beautiful place! +But not everyone you know wants of the old times. +Yeah. +I used to land at Migombo property er Matmalamo originally and then they changed it over and we used to land at Migombo But it was a funny spread! +It was er cut out of palm trees and it got palm trees on hundred feet high,both sides of the runway. +Good grief! +One mistake and er +Yeah, well that's and you used to get some +Coconuts in the cockpit! +you could get some pretty he hefty winds down there you know, the old monsoon used to blow +Oh yes. +I've had some . +Yes that tropical weather you see. +Erm he would of made a good singer, yes. +Of course, he used to +Well it makes a nice change +get in these didn't he? +in amongst all that rubbish! +Ooh yes! +Oh gosh, absolutely, yeah! +I used to love his films, I did! +But erm he wa , he was not an opera singer you know, he couldn't erm +No, but if I'd said that +couldn't sustain a role for two or three hours. +Oh yes! +Yes. +He was only thirty thirty +What? +thirty six when he died you know! +Was he? +Oh oh yeah. +like that . +Oh I was reading about the twenty three stone! +Just killed himself with over indulgence you know, in drink an an er eating. +And meals +A shame isn't it? +Most probably if he hadn't gone to Hollywood that would never have happened. +Well it was er it was transparent in the water you could see the fish in the water and and er, you could see the turtles and the +And the otters. +otters and, and +Beautiful! +everything. +ah dear! +But, she was as nervous as a kitten because we were, we were in a one of these Canadian type er +Oh the dugout, sort of canoe, yes, the curved and +type canoe,India , Indian canoe type thing you see and the blo but he was a an old mariner, he was seventy seven and he volunteered to take us on the river. +And +He said that. +he said, he was, very nice chap! +He was like Bing Crosby you know +Oh blue eyes! +to hear and look at him. +Oh! +And he said erm now I don't want to alarm you he said but er, have you any been on a canoe before and er I said no ! +And er +I'll cross my fingers! +Yeah. +And he said er no, he said er I hope you can swim er, he said because they're rather unstable and er and he said, now erm if we er bump into anything like erm a he he hesitated in his speech and he said like a log or a er er or alligator he said freeze! +Freeze! +Don't move! +He said I'll make the decisions! +And still I've made it through! +And she's sitting there petrified! +And do you know, you've heard it +Don't frighten the alligators! +Yeah +Yeah. +don't fri you know when you sit on your bottom in a canoe and that, you've not probably been in a canoe +I have actually been in a +but you can see all movement +Oh I know it's a funny thing! +and and but, you know like they say you +You know at the slightest wobble +If, you feel as though it's gonna go sideways or something! +Yeah, yeah. +But he said i , don't ju freeze because he said, otherwise we'll all be the bath! +And the, for the first half +With the, with alligators ! +for the first half hour I sat didn't dare put my +bit difficult +on. +to take photographs, I got my movie cam , my video camera you see and I I didn't +Oh yeah. +dare move! +And I was +We were like this. +I was just doing like this you see, I didn't dare swing round. +Just a scratch . +What for fo for what? +It it's for +Oh +Sa that's safe way of . +That's +So the er wha beyond the John er +Oh I see ! +He keeps filming us! +You get a surprise. +Where's it gone ? +It's very good he the video's just as safe as if children that needs character what do you think? +Well I don't know whether you can sort of, tape in advance can you? +We, we can't, no +I don't understand it! +I don't mess with the thing. +I just let +No. +them do it. +Son told us how to do it once, so he got the book out and he said, oh, then he gave up in the end! +Because er we tried it and we got the wrong ruddy film! +Ya. +You know yo , it's all these buttons isn't it, you've gotta you've really got to be into it. +You know you know my three year old grandson he knows how to do it +Oh I know! +his nana ! +Yeah. +Try and look nana, that one and that +Experts +one. +aren't they kids, though! +Brought up quick you see. +I don't envy them though, I don't +Oh no I don't. +I'm old fashioned and that's it! +I don't know. +No. +Too old to change aren't we ? +But i I must say I like it is a marvellous thing to be able to do that! +Oh yeah. +Just sit down and watch a ruddy tape you know and +Yeah. +pre , put it in and +Mm. +I mean to say er used to see people years ago and they got these cine cameras and and all, we could never have one of those you know and a record of the kids when they were young. +Yeah. +And I mean +Well look at me stupid +You only got a few minutes didn't you? +this stupid thing is is going and taping rugby matches all the time ! +Oh yes! +But, +Well of course he would! +you kno +That's what he wants to see. +I know. +Yes, but he doesn't stop and think you know, what else can we do?to get this tape in. +That's it. +Kids! +What can you do? +She has been in the business for about a year yeah. +Dressmaking mainly, but you know, anything at all, yeah, she's been at it that long! +But, but people when people when they come to your house and want things done they're tight you know! +Oh yeah, they're not +Terrible! +Yeah. +They say it won't take you long! +A a skirt, how much is a skirt? +Well five pounds an well I only ee, you know +Mm. +I could do it myself. +Yep. +And I sa and I said well why why don't you? +Yeah. +She's given up now, she just does it for friends now the you +Mm. +know, that, who pay but obviously +Yes. +they're getting it done cheaply. +But some people are grateful. +Well Beryl has a cousin who's er tremendous degree of spasticity in the legs even worse than +God bless her! +poor er Brian you know +Yeah. +she can only go round with two sticks and she gets er while Beryl's here in house but erm the brave little kid she er did a degree in erm art and costume design, you know, dress design with a erm and she's set up a good business at home. +And well sh she's built up a goo er steady little clientele. +Clientele , yeah. +She does a lot of er work erm but she's doing work there's a place in Chester,Harrison you know,Godford Lane +Oh yes, I've Yes. +Yes. +I know, yeah, yeah oh my wife knows +Erm +it quite well anyway. +Well they they get her to do or even erm they got one cutting girl who came in er got a photograph from Vogue erm Michael Caine's daughter +Oh! +and her wedding dress and she wanted a dress like that. +Oh yes! +Sent they send it to Elizabeth. +Er so as it happened this girl had got the material erm a wild silk cream and er Elizabeth made up this dress for her of course er Michael Caine's daughter i is quite a busty girl, you know +Oh I see, yeah. +and this bride wasn't +so it didn't qui , look quite the same, you know! +Had to make +So +a few drastic alterations! +So when it was made +she decided she didn't like it! +Ooh! +Erm so Elizabeth got on to Aristocrats so what, what happened? +Oh do don't worry! +Don't worry at all we've contracted with you to do this dress +Oh, that's right. +we'll just take it into stock. +Yeah. +Yeah. +No problem whatsoever! +Erm but she's got er girls this one is, lady's six foot three! +And she found it terribly difficult to get dresses! +Absolutely! +Erm oh her husband +now is absolutely delighted with all she does! +She's goes along to some illustration out of book and er +She does design or something. +something she's seen in a magazine or +Oh I see, yeah. +Oh she +She +can design as well? +No. +Choose the design +Ah that's +on a dress. +that is very talented, yes! +And and she's got a couple of lady solicitors who come to her! +Yes, I think, and also it depends on the area that you live, do you think John? +I don't know. +Oh she's +You know perhaps you're in +Erm the older part of Whitby and , just a little semi erm +Mm. +you know, she, she lived in . +I think if she went in to live in the back woods, you know, way beyond +Yeah. +sort of er +Yeah. +as I say, you get good people that are quite willing to pay, but others who +Mm. +are they do +Oh I know! +they want it done cheaply because you're working at home! +Yeah, they think you're a . +The attitude , which is wrong +Yeah. +really! +You know I sa , told Margaret, I said look don't er I'm very sorry but we can't do it! +I've known people also raise bedding plants at home erm +Yeah. +but er it's just the same, the they +Yes. +go to a nursery and pay six or seven times as much and +They want it for nothing or or +next to nothing! +Yeah, I know. +They don't want it half price +They don't realise! +they want it for a +You still got the +fifth! +same overheads +Heating. +heating costs and +, yes. +compost and all of that. +And the work is tremendous +Yeah. +doing that sort of thing, I'd, something I would never take but there you are that's people for you! +What? +Like this game to some extent isn't it? +The furniture they want it somebody'll want it done for no +I've broken many the dowel or tenon or something like that! +Oh! +In just +Erm +watering? +Well, I mean, say it's like that where you just polishing with a cloth or something +Yeah. +but he has a an actual syringe er, mortaring tenon you know. +Ya. +Say that was a tenon there the underneath part of the chair you're not gonna see drills a hole in there +Mm. +and then jegs and after a few five minutes +Yeah. +doesn't get you know, it breaks down the glue inside. +and that hasn't broke. +No, no, you've been lucky there but +Yeah. +it's a good tip that you know, isn't it? +I've never heard of it before. +Michael? +Michael the erm the up , the furniture restorer that's erm he's coming here. +He's not here. +Three hours every Tuesdays for the second years +Oh yeah. +and giving us tuition on real antique furniture, he doesn't do anything in his shop erm after eighteen forty or it's all more or less Georgian, very Georgian actually. +And whereabouts is he? +In er Heswell I, I've never been there, he's got a workshop in Heswell +What and you go on a you go on a course there? +No he co , he comes here. +Oh does he? +When is +He +that? +wants +He comes here on Tuesday? +On on a Tuesday, he wants to go and teach you see, I think he's got arthritis in his one leg. +Is he er the man with a beard? +Yes. +Mike, he's called? +Michael . +. +He's written a book. +We've all got the book. +Oh yes! +Yes. +He's a lovely chap +Ahhh +honestly! +Very, very interesting! +Yeah. +And and yo +I +you do it his course here on erm +Well he he sort of came and asked us, you know do you mind +Yeah. +he he's gotta do this thirty hours I think it is to +I see! +to get this +Teaching? +other exam. +Yeah. +As I say, they he qualifies you see. +Yeah. +Er so it's mainly erm what I've just been telling you about cleaning all +Mm. +screws, how to identify furniture and mainly ol and his methods are totally different to what we've learnt +here, especially with polishing +Mm, mm +and that. +Mm. +Uses hardly any polish it's nearly all waxing though. +Is it? +Oh! +Stripping and everything's a different technique. +Oh very good! +But he +And that's part of your three days is it? +You do three don't you? +Yeah, ah that's right, yeah. +Well er, the Tuesday is supposed to be furniture restoration, that's what it's been +And yo , that's +but then he started doi you know, a few weeks ago it wa , well it'll be the fourth week I should think! +Mm. +And +Fourth. +who do you do the er for? +Furniture restoration. +Well that's the the three day, you know, George i he's +George, Bill and +No, Bill doesn't go in! +No, +He doesn't ? +This is just woodwork. +Oh I see. +Ah well we do a bit of copying. +Now that's, is is that in this class here? +In this room? +The first years come in here for upholstery. +Mm. +We go in there to the woodwork +And that's on Tuesday mornings? +Tuesdays. +Yeah, yeah +Oh I see! +It's a fiver each that is. +Some +I wouldn't mind doing that. +Well, I I liked it, you know it's it's so interesting and er he is very good! +Trouble is, some of them have made the mistake I think, of saying well it's not good for us because we don't do really old furniture you know. +Nobody's gonna come to us for the lease of erm William the fourth or anything like this! +No. +Or William and Mary and say er can you do, they're gonna go to an expert like him. +But then if they got tips +You never know, you might have to do a top of an +Yeah. +old, really old +Yeah. +table. +And not just go on and strip the +Yeah. +which +Yeah. +he's still really tha that's a +Yeah, you ca +of him that is. +No. +Don't, never use that stuff! +Makes his own wax! +Does he? +Showing us how to +Yeah. +we're gonna do some between us. +So if he's got to he's ga got to re re-buy something then he just clips it down with sandpaper does he? +Oh no! +No, just cli , and yesterday he'd got this marvellous cleaner he uses. +Just wipes it. +It just cleans. +Cleaner and then er wire wool at at the last +Mm. +resort +Mm. +but oh he he, he does do stripping obviously but the +Yeah. +the stuff he uses is ve isn't as caustic as the stuff we +No. +use. +No. +It just takes the surface off. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And then th , the object in the, is to build up a pattern +Yeah. +there you see, so it still looks old. +And he +Yeah. +does a lot of patching, somebody's got a cigarette hole you, you've gotta match that up. +Yeah. +Very interesting! +Yeah. +But it would +pricey If I wanted to come you see, I'd have to pay again! +Oh well , yes, yeah, oh well I wouldn't be coming. +I'd have , I'd have to pay for it. +I have to +That's right. +pay for everything I do, you know. +It's part of my second year, so yeah I know. +Yeah. +So I'll be in the same boat as you next year. +Will you? +Well yeah, I've had a come for one day, pay for a day and hope I can sneak in on the two day. +That's what +Ya. +you can do. +Mm. +Yeah well we could +I mean, Joan said well ma , you know make the numbers up, once you're here come in on the second. +Well we can still be away for about four lessons at four thirty so er +Well that makes up +and he'd been away for three months so that you know I mean +Well you see Eric was offered two months. +Little Eric, the one that's always +Yeah. +in there. +So the let him come in the day, two days he was off two months, Christmas time, +How is he? +with his bad back. +Tha , well he went to Spain for a month to sort of recuperate. +Yes. +And and come in on the, he came on the Tuesday and he's been three days a couple of weeks so +Eric will be pleased at that. +Between friends I think +I haven't got a bad back, she had me +Wings on you would wouldn't you? +Ooh yes! +Yes. +The wings go on last don't +Last +they? +yeah. +Yeah, yeah. +Ray, can I ask you ? +Sorry Pat, what? +Have you got glue from the +No. +Yes. +Kept this space +There? +specially for you Pat. +Oh that's very sweet! +With you in mind. +Well erm Mary's +here so she can budge up a bit. +Yes. +A gem you are! +There's usually another guy here today so he hasn't showed up, so there you are so we got bags of room. +From what I've heard she'd got no chance that lady! +Well yes. +As long as you're alright. +Bit shocked really I suppose. +Yes, well it is! +Yo you sort of er if you ran into someone you know, you do something silly it's it's it's it's automatic to say oh I'm sorry we will you know how much +Yeah. +? +Yeah. +But today, especially these youngsters the attitude is I'm +Yeah. +not saying anything! +Course it is, you say anything +Now it's sticking out a mile, but the time home that make up another ruddy story to give +Yeah. +to their insurance I mean +Oh yeah. +it's awful. +But +Oh she blamed me, she said I was coming round the corner at high speed! +And I, we weren't anywhere near the corner! +We were this end sorry, we were this end, you know . +Yo you were stationery were you? +I was stationery. +She got no chance! +You ran into a , I mean if she's reversing +She reversed +She's not looking, she couldn't of been looking! +She's she's looked then she's taken her eyes off the back. +Yeah. +Must of! +Well, she probably didn't look at all! +Could be. +I mean I I +I said, I hooted her as well. +Mm. +And er +That's fatal! +But I I was always taught, probably like yourself that you must look through that, turn round and look through that rear +Yes. +mirror. +Cos if you take your eye off for a second, bang somebody's there! +Oh yes. +So I don't think she's got much hope now you know. +Have you got +witnesses anyway? +Yeah . +Oh! +I hope sa er , see of course it's all question of getting it sorted out as quickly as you can. +There's the insurances and the tale that she tells them but tha , I think they'll have that weighed up you know. +Ha! +Well I hope so. +Cos I had an awful experience about ooh, four years ago, I had this old Moggy Morris Minor coming along very slowly north of Hull it was and this chap and his about finished work you know, so I going past this cri , there's a cricket match going on and he was looking like, I could see and his girlfriend! +And the car just went like this into the middle of the road slowly towards me I swerved onto the grass +Yeah. +verge and he caught my back bumper an an ripped it off you see! +Got out the car, said good God lad what were you doing? +And he never said anything and he said something like, I'm not saying anything. +I said you ran into me, look at the position of the cars! +Ooh no, he said we'll swop insurances that's all he'd say! +It was his dad's car. +Yeah. +His dad was on holiday. +Anyway, I, I should of got the police there and then and had +Yeah. +him breathalysed although it wasn't +Yeah. +drink or anything but +Yeah. +police said to me afterwards you should of we can't fight your claim you +Yeah. +should of had him there and then and measured up the road a bit +Yeah. +we could see how +Yeah. +you're too late to have ended up knock for knock. +It's as though +Yeah. +it were partially my blame you know. +They paid half of erm +Yeah. +totally his fault you know! +But these youngsters today they could kill +Yeah. +someone they wouldn't er +Yep. +they wouldn't be compassionate about it you know. +Well I proved I was stationery this morning there's no way she's right. +Oh no, I think you got a pretty good case there. +It's nasty though isn't it? +It leaves a nasty taste in your mouth. +Where are you, North Wales, Chester? +Yeah. +I thought, ooh by that +Yeah. +you know. +Anyway, one lady came came to the house whilst I was here and she said oh it's not quite what I want. +last week getting married. +Just a . +Put a deposit down will you, oh can't +Yeah. +pick it up till the weekend. +Yeah. +But I'd come down to er, one two five you see in the local paper. +Oh! +So anyway, it's gone. +As I say, it didn't cost +Yeah. +me much. +Didn't cost me +No. +anything to to buy that one +Oh well. +so er but it's stuck there for er weeks on end, you know +we've been finished it +Yeah. +bit of a . +And the ? +Oh yeah,tha , that was Lorraine you know Lorraine that was here. +Yeah, but then I suppose +But then she's you know, otherwise hers . +Where does sh where's her shop? +in Wallasey +Oh, in Wallasey again? +Ah. +I see, yeah. +Oh well I could go there and have a look, anyway one day +Yeah. +because is she the only one there is she or +She might be interested I don't +Yeah. +I don't know whether the other girls go round with her but erm what's the other girls name that was here? +Wah I didn't know that very well. +I knew +Oh! +Lorraine because I, you know +She ru she, she does her own work she starts being +Oh yes, there was another girl, yeah. +Yes. +A friend of my daughter's went in the other week and bought a little erm table off her erm and, you know, it's quite , I mean it's all, that's it. +Wanted some new furniture. +Trouble is she only wants to buy it off you cheaply you see, for +If you can, it's how she does it, she might erm +Sometimes they sell things for you don't they? +And charge you for it. +That's what I was gonna say, I she liked that new erm in there. +I know +Yeah. +she did do that, what they get for it erm +Usually they're pushed for space as well, you see, that could +Yeah. +be the other thing, you know. +It's been there er, for sale for a few months and sold it by February at a +That's right. +loss. +To save on . +She had the Monday market didn't she?like all things, you know, though people do tend to go in and look and then say ooh yes, very nice! +Yeah. +We'll think about it and say ooh oh you have this don't you? +Especially at lunch with the they come up and spend +Ooh yes. +little bit on , they're still buying. +Ooh yes! +Because they're going they go by the band road down south. +And sell it much dearer there obviously so er you know +They, they still buy it no, okay I can charge where in this economic situation and we think . +Oh no, no! +No I no, there is erm +We bought , we bought stuff ourselves you know, to people and we've spent on it, so +Yeah. +It's my last weekend but it was such a scramble! +I was, wanting to get home I, I couldn't +Mm. +be bothered but erm +Yeah. +Well you know the erm Handbridge ? +Yes. +Yes +Well you +Yes. +but I think there's only one shop there, The Pearl Antiques just over the bridge on the right hand side +Over the bri , oh I know yes! +A +anyway +that they call Vineholts Vineholts is a cake shop right opposite there. +Oh yes , that's right yes. +Well I hadn't been there for ages! +Have you got a a row of shops on your left by the pub +Yes, and then on the right +then er er a park on your right and +right. +then a couple of the shops, and she's about on the corner this +Oh, well I haven't been that way yet. +Just a couple of ladies erm well it's one lady, I think er the lady just helps her. +We've been in a couple of times and I said that I wanted a chaise you see ooh I got this erm one for Victorian one it's very nice, and lovely warm you know, the legs anyway it was one one thousand three hundred you see, so I thought, oh I said well I didn't wanna +I beg your pardon? +Well that's what you can spend now for a good one. +But this is ready to take home but I said oh, can I have it out? +She said, yes. +That's finished is it then? +Oh yes, yes! +Had to be. +Oh, yes, yes, yes! +Only one seat then? +Oh yes yeah. +I said to her have you got one that's in bits? +But er for three hundred, you know er but er er +But +the back was loose! +And I said, and she said oh well she said you know well it's that's how you've gotta take it stripped, for me to take that to get that done up by a restorer you'd have to take all the upholstery off, or quite a bit off +Well I was gonna say +and then if it'd go up to about one seven she said, and I couldn't sell it here she said, I'm not Chester prices I'm just that bit cheaper. +Which, a lovely lady! +But +But +I thought, I was surprised to see it was loose, you know. +Well that's it, I mean the joints +You've gotta take it home like that. +the joints have got to be done haven't they? +The joints have gone and this wanted doing but it would of been extortionate she said, you know, to get it done +Yeah. +and then try and sell it you know, take +Well that's alright. +all that into account. +I think it's terrible really! +That's bad! +And I've seen chairs like that, I've seen I don't know whether it's there but a couple of places, bedroom chairs, gorgeous things, you know! +And the backs! +You know, you can do this with the back! +I mean, you don't like saying to the people +No. +you know, because +No. +their faces drop when you +They do. +you're not supposed to say +You'll be marked man when you get in there. +You're supposed be glad that it's old and don't sit in there, you know th but er it's bad, but though isn't it? +It is. +Well you know, you turn things out here and you go in you might see that little +Yeah, put it in +and magnified in your mind aren't they? +That's right, like my my . +That's alright. +I like it. +Top of the class Gwyneth! +Get the stuff done well er terrible, and he said yes it, why not! +Mm. +Might go and ask him about that ammonia. +Yes you're ammonia is heated downstairs. +Right erm eight eighty ammonia. +How much d'you want? +Well I mean, whatever you say in the well no +I think it'll you a hundred CC or a a of +Yeah. +Yonks +Fair enough. +Right. +The only thing, other thing is we've been you know debating about the er stuff to make up the wax which we'll have to go to Morrells by all, and get it sent here +Well listen +anybody. +Anyone +that wax that we made up there with the antique wax hasn't turned out as well it did with Mansion polish so when you make it up +Mansion? +Mm get some Mansion wax. +Oh! +I think they cut it too. +I wouldn't believe it made that much difference do you? +Gone all solid. +I never tried it actually . +Oh I see! +So you want the old fashioned +Mansion polish +Mansion. +with it. +There's only a small amount in it anyway. +Mm. +Show yo , show you a wax polish you haven't seen before. +Ooh fair enough,. +He's gonna bring some er for us. +Oh is he? +So we need because you've gotta have the right stuff. +It's no good messing +Yeah. +about with the the normal household stuff. +Yeah so said we can get. +Yeah, I wish now I didn't think, I that I'd ask , he was busy and +Mm. +had he got a great big bottle? +It was only forty pence! +Mm. +You kno , you know I said it's I had the er the recipe +Yeah. +there, so it's two ounces, so it's a . +Yeah. +But I suppose I should of got a couple of quid of +Yeah. +but not for all these, you know +Yeah. +but I think I'll cheat. +So er +So +Anyway, we'll see you on Tuesday won't we Mike? +Yeah. +All being well. +Yes. +And maybe I'll start on the chair. +Wha what do we need to to be a ? +Egg cups as well? +More legs. +Hey,we can have an egg race! +An egg race. +Egg and spoon race! +Er no when you erm you know that I was telling you keep your bit of used up erm sandpaper fly paper +Yes. +you make that into a little cornet and mi put it in +Oh! +Right! +Yo it's it's a cornet like that. +Oh yes we do that, yeah. +You need to, you need to stand it in something. +In the +Yeah. +egg box +Well we've oh, it's easy! +What for doing your er pigments and that, is it mixing +Yeah. +those up? +Oh I see +We erm +ah yes, yes, I see now yes! +We use a bit of the top of the jar normally and er +Hey one thing I was gonna query you on Mike the erm sanding sealer you know you say you must leave that for at least a week? +Well, you can bi what I tend to is is get a coat on er, first thing in the morning, another coat in the afternoon and then leave it for a week. +Cos it really does, it still goes on settling into the +Oh yeah! +grain , have you got it here? +I don't know, I, I, I took it home +with me. +No, I took it home, I I was sort of leaving that to you you know, as you say, as you've just mentioned now that, but no, I thought when you first of you said haven't got the time to put these all the layers of on, you know and +That's why! +and you you gotta wa +Yo +Yes, I suppose +You should come in the breaks. +I was purely killing myself! +Initially you you're doing that then saying right, forget that one, get on with something else and that's there for a week or whatever till that thoroughly hardens and then . +, look at that and then and then you can straight onto it. +Right, I'll leave that till Tuesday. +So if I bring it again on Tuesday +Yeah. +in the state that I've you know +Have you put one coat on already? +Yes. +Er what's it look like? +Seems quite thick you know. +Don't forget I'm go , we're going on top of polish here. +We'll try it. +We'll try it and see what it looks like. +It'll you know +If you need to, just have to put another one on. +Yes. +have you got sute and carbide here? +Well +Got ? +I don't know what you call it here. +The grey paper. +Grey, yes, oh yes! +B twenty. +That's it, yes! +Yeah. +So that's what I'll I'll use on right! +Okay, well see you Tuesday anyway. +Right. +Cheerio! +Bye! +Bye bye! +You off home? +from actually Pat,i Romford is it? +What do you say? +No! +West London. +No! +I was born in the City of London actually. +Oh that's right yes! +And then +Actually within the sound of Bow bells, I was! +Were you? +I thought so! +Yes! +Yes! +Every now and again you slips +talk like that if I want to. +She says free! +Free o 'clock! +No, she doesn't, no! +But then you lived most of yo +Oh yes. +In the war we went to . +By the sea? +Good old +And started off by the sea but that wasn't a good idea really was it? +No ! +! +No, that was bad planning that was ! +, no! +So we just stayed anywhere and if you hadn't got anywhere to go +That's right. +go in anywhere. +Mm, mm. +We ended up not by the sea. +And look where you've ended up, this dump! +Yeah. +Oh I think so. +That'll be alright. +I forgot, don't know the +yes! +What about Buckley North Wales, now there's a bit of class up there you know, in those hills! +Oh no!yeah. +No, I've er, I used to have a bungalow in Wales. +Not a lot! +Showens in between erm +Oh it's +Just get +under water now! +Your bungalow! +Yeah. +No! +Terrible! +Oh no it's er I'm afraid. +And so he decided he could get about three caravans on the the price that my bungalow was occupying. +It was only summer timber thing, you know. +Yes, that's right.. +It had to go because he could make more money having erm the three caravans on the site that this occupying. +The old story! +So I enjoyed it. +So you haven't got your fierre de tie now? +Or you've +The children +got another one? +the children loved it! +Used to go . +Happy da +I'm a teapot Ray! +It's a, I'm not lying to you, you know! +I put four teabags in there fill it up with boiling water right? +And then put it on the stove and stew it! +Mm mm. +Oh no! +right, and that I do all day is put a little top up in there. +I couldn't drink that now! +No, I, I +I have done years ago. +That was the Irish way that. +well that's the way I've +Used to say +I've always +do you want a cup of tea that's been stewing for three days? +Just go and get it when you are when you want more of this. +Ah, but it's goes too +dark doesn't +the er +it? +strongest you know, about his all night, you know it really does. +But you must have a go , a fantastic coating on your insides don't you ! +Yeah. +Like the inside of +a teapot, like. +! +He hasn't finished yet with his are they on or a finger? +I'll just move some +Alright, my old son God bless! +That'll do me now. +In er, in that sense I agree +I I +that waxing's taken half an hour! +Yeah, it's just this waiting for this sanding sealer you see to dry. +But then you're not spending hours +No. +putting you know the button on the while you are here. +If you do it the way Bill says. +Everybody +Will you be wanting it? +already made up . +Cos I need +It's a +it's a grey area isn't it? +Well it's been on +No, I mean +for so long, I mean I can't +I mean yo , you don't get waxing off Bill do you? +No. +Yeah we, he showed me. +Was it two times that's what I do and then and then let it harden off and then +Mm. +put the wax on. +That's why . +I think the some of the we've turned out isn't so important is it? +Oh no. +You know, you get something that's only twenty five years old +it's not so important to get it perfect. +I say, it's like a +You know, as the stuff he's doing because +Oh yeah! +That's right. +And he's very good! +Very good top quality you see so he's gotta have it right. +That stuff. +It's handy to know the right way to do it innit? +Yes, I suppose it is. +And I mean the way he did that table +I suppose cos he +It's nice that table anyway! +That old one's gone, you know. +So I'm looking forward to seeing what he does with that. +It's a nice approach I think. +Mm. +And he makes it interesting. +Mm. +Whereas Bill +Bill +tends to be a bit I don't know se dictorial +doesn't he? +This is how it's done get on with it I'm going now! +You know, and then if you ask him again he says, I've told you once! +But he does get funny! +He's a funny man! +What do you want, a chair? +Yeah. +Er, there's one over here look! +There's one left. +He's got that huge nice house! +Yes, I know! +I know what that means. +Do want a pouffe? +These Coxes are nice! +One of my +favourite apples is erm er, a russet. +Yeah. +We left that really. +But the last, really seem to be tiny now and +Yeah! +I +They're not nice when they're full of that's a horrible colour that one! +Yeah , and just a, as an old old taste about them! +I get my favourite apple . +Oh! +Some of them are a bit tasteless I find. +Mm. +Absolutely no taste at all! +What like a peach? +Yeah. +You soon get fed up eating it don't you? +But you'll soon find that it only needs one . +I am. +Do you want my core Margaret? +It's +Used to say that in Liverpool ! +I thought . +Can I have your core? +Ooh God ! +A And then again have chair, you know,pe , people are reticent of it, they're frightened if it goes +Yeah. +I'd be hopeless! +I wouldn't be able to do it, keep up +Yes. +with cos +Well when we had the open day and we had a lot of people round here! +Yes. +It's really interesting! +Yeah. +Yeah, I notice Joan tapping at the saying, ooh ooh ooh ooh! +Yeah she's sewing them all up for Friday! +Has she? +Yeah. +Oh, didn't know. +What do you mean vell +Well no, a whole of vell he's going to go get some give me some +For, for September? +Bit early yet isn't it? +Well, it could have been +Won't have the roll and foam. +well then put it. +Well, I wouldn't of thought +Won't be +so they wouldn't be allowed to join +won't be hardly +would they er +hardly anything left now. +No. +And I don't know how many dropped out so +twenty two. +I'd +well I suppose they could do couldn't they? +Mm. +And it's not gonna cost anything so the +I mean Pat started late with us, you know. +She she missed about two months, I think, Pat. +But she soon caught up, you know it didn't make any difference to her but +There's John next door, he di , he just started a couple of weeks ago. +About five +The young chap? +Short chap? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And he's doing brilliantly! +He's , he's marvellous on the upholstery. +On the upholstery, yeah! +Well +He's only twenty! +to go +Yeah. +into somewhere +Erm you know the the the table that he's doing now he's doing the varnishing the table, you know and he really in! +You know +I always it's terrible! +Some people seem to drop in don't +Yes. +they? +Others have a bit of a tough time especially I think with ladies +Well I found it easy. +they're join , doing joints and that, you know, er I mean,tha tha Sheila, she said oh I'm not interested at all in doing mortars and tenons or +Yeah. +you know ! +Yeah. +But then if you want to do the restoration yo +I've have a go I'll have a go at them they were they didn't look very good but, I mean, at least I did them, you know +Yeah. +I +Oh, I think they're and maybe you you you you improve with testing them. +Yeah. +Got to! +Both got +Oh! +The that +Yeah. +realise actually +You get too busy you know, for what you've got to do to +Of course! +Yeah! +I mean, look at +now +look at me or the guys with the sewing machines I mean +Yeah. +Ya. +The +The +these hands weren't meant for sewi but I mean yo you do get better. +Oh yes! +It's surprising! +Especially when you you know, just like a . +She really has got . +Mind you she looks a bit tired now, asleep isn't she? +But er well this is no good! +Well I +The whistle's gone. +Come on Shirley, I, you're +Oh! +usually first up for that! +We're always rushing ! +Yeah . +No you're not. +I'm going Mrs . +Again? +I don't thi I don't think Miss +They don't call her part-time Shirley for nothing you know! +Mind you, when she's here it's worth it! +Ah! +I see. +Now,i are we interested in going to the +Yes. +It's on the sixth of July and it'll cost forty pounds. +Forty! +And then +you said twenty five quid! +I've been told that on Tuesday. +It's gonna be forty +Mind you, for that, girl +pounds. +it's worth, it's worth it! +Forty pounds, right I'll get a bit of paper. +He, He went into hospital and they said erm that it's the muscles of his heart that were affected they couldn't do anything more for him! +Just sa , you know, so he said right well I might as well go home. +So he went home and he out about two weeks got fed up, you know, like that man you know, doing nothing so he had a scooter that needed repairing he died as he repaired the scooter! +She went out his wife, shopping left him tinkering with this scooter came back, couldn't get in then she did get in and he was dead on the floor! +Good grief! +What a terrible for the wife! +Sixty, sixty! +You don't know, I mean he could of gone if he'd been lying in a chair wa watching the +Oh yeah. +telly you just +Mm mm. +don't know! +I mean at least he was doing something that +Yeah +he liked. +stretched out on the floor! +But of course, I mean, we know little about it they do say if you have had a heart attack it's no good you know, as soon you get up and you start eating going for five mile walks +Oh no, that'd +it's gotta be a very +different. +gradual thing. +Yeah. +I mean +But yo you must exercise but +Yeah. +obviously using a bit of sense +Yeah. +as well. +Perhaps he's, perhaps him something or +Yeah. +strained. +Well standing or you know +God I dunno! +He probably was told to go home and take it easy, you know, and +Mm. +He's like me you get well like most +You can't +men they get fed up, that's like +I know +most women do the same. +oh yeah bu you see, er er, you're not supposed to life anything for if one of my grandsons falls over, the first thing you do is pick him up you know! +And then er +It's so constricting! +Yo yo you, you been used to working hard and if they say don't do this +Yeah. +You don't do it. +I I'd go mad I would, honestly! +Mm mm. +Mm. +But I I er remember Margaret, my wife when she had the er the last one which is a a gap of about ten years between the third you know, and the fourth child +Yeah. +so of course she had to in hospital so, have this on my pregnancy, you know +Yeah. +and we'd lost one. +Mm mm. +Mm. +Oh didn't wanna leave home, but anyway she went in and somebody said, oh it'll be about a week you know my fifth one really. +Mm mm. +What? +Anyway, this somebody must of given her the idea, I think it was our local doctor oh you'll be alright you know, you have to have to have them in forty eight hours you see so +Mhm mm. +she was in this hospita , the, the City Hospital in Chester which is not used now for that. +Mm. +And er I do don't know which day it was but she was sitting there fed up second day I'm thinking she said well I, I'm going home tomorrow, so I said no you're staying in for the week! +We +Yeah. +well that was it then,urgh ! +Yeah +Anyway she was that bad, anyone sa who she saw plus the doctor, you know oh he said, oh no! +So I think they let her out the day after. +Yeah. +The proviso that she +Took it easy , mm. +I had to go there and er I could go back with her in the ambulance. +Mm. +And then of course, as you say strictly +Yeah. +no work, well +No. +Don't take any notice! +You know what women are like, they ha +Yeah. +they got kids to look after, the first thing you do it's, it is silly really you know but I mean +Oh I know but you're especially +For working people, unless you got a maid or something, which you know wha +Especially where there's children involved, I mean +Yeah. +you just don't think, you've, you've lifted +Kids don't understand. +them before you think about you shouldn't be doing that. +You know, if they fall over and their +But then again +knees are bleeding or whatever ! +You say +That's right! +you pick them up, if they fall +I was back at work which +you think er +No they have +No. +Ooh my doctor told me er these guys aren't they, if their wife has a baby. +Oh yeah! +Mm mm. +That were ! +They used to call them in in in on th , when I was collecting her +Mm. +you know, and they'd say the wife ha had a baby +Mm. +she'd be doing the work and th +And he'd be sitting watching the +That the wa , leaving the +television! +Cos they have the time +Yeah! +off to look after the +Yeah, yeah. +wife ! +yeah ! +Ah, God ! +Oh me! +The er the minstrel boy. +Oh yes. +You don't , you don't wanna hear it! +I've seen it, he's been now. +And I could +Oh! +just see the hall and an +Yeah. +and the lovely voices voices well I say lovely! +And then we wa +ha Was that in +I'll just ask +Wales? +Well they have got good voices in Wales haven't they? +No, no this is in Liverpool where I +Oh was it? +Mm +mainly brought up in +mm, no. +you know. +Yeah but erm ooh I can, I can remember that some good old ones +Yeah. +you know, you don't +Which school did you go to? +Oh, and er Lons Road in Weybridgeley when the war started we left Weybridgeley and went to er and then erm Twig Lane was it? +And then,Highton Modern Secondary +You might +School, the Secondary Modern School +Yeah. +with co , with co-eds +Yeah. +you know. +And that was it then till I left but erm +It was a different world though then wasn't it? +You know? +The nineteen sixties. +Tell you what, when the wa , when the war was over we came came to erm Dissert +Oh yeah. +when the bomb was about, in Weybridgeley +Yeah. +you see for, I don't know, so many months. +My mum couldn't stand it in the end she sa let's get back to bomb there! +Yeah, +curtains used to go +Mm. +foreigners, yeah! +Yeah. +But er the school, I think it was Rudling I, I've often tried to find it but I I'm not sure which one i , you know, for +Yeah. +little tots i , that's sa where they were. +Probably some assembly rooms, that's what they put us in. +Think this an actual churchy-type school +Oh a school was it? +Yeah. +But they had a +li , I remember this little room now with a fire going +Yeah. +you see. +Mm. +And erm one day a chap came with a donkey in the classroom and it was a, an educated donkey they were and he was what's three and three? +And he'd go once +Counting, they do like the horses do in +What +the circus! +what are the, what are these doing? +I said, I don't know I need to think. +Oh God, it was magic it was ! +Yeah. +And I look back on that and you know, nineteen +Yeah. +forty one, or whatever it was, forty, forty one +Yeah, through the evacuation. +Yeah. +and it was er and then we came to er near er par Prenton +Yeah. +in the caravan +Mm. +mum and dad came to +Yeah. +stay in this caravan and these posh houses were ! +We went there one day and my sister and I,mu , mum was in Liverpool and the sign went sister was elder sister, he was terrified, our John! +And we ran to this house I said +Aha! +I said lady can you take +my sister cos she's frightened of the bombs ! +Really! +Where are you from she said? +In that field down there ! +God, she must of thought we were gypsies! +Yeah. +Well, she said you'd better come in. +Always remember the be at the door where there was beads curtain, you know as you went through and you've never seen anything like before you know! +No ! +Sat there, this cup of tea, terrified! +More terrified than the ruddy planes coming over ! +But my mum had to go +Oh. +over every week for the groceries you see, had to stick to your own grocer didn't you? +There's your rations. +, your ration +Yeah. +books, and you couldn't sort of swop the +Oh no! +No, they had to round. +go over. +And mum always used to say that's what gave you that hernia that walking all the way for food! +Yeah! +Dragging it all +backwards and forwards, yeah! +Oh God! +Well +But I loved it you know! +Mm. +I loved it! +Perversely! +But, to me +Mm. +it was er er er exciting +Terrifying, yeah of course it was! +It was +And my +different, yeah. +my sister didn't, she was frightened +No. +you know the +Is she a bit older than you? +A couple of years older than me +Mm. +but she's a nervous type you know. +Yeah. +They'd go collecting shrapnel in the street, you know and +Yeah, my brother would go out and do that, yeah! +Sometimes it was warm! +Yeah. +Oh boy! +If it happened now I'd be I'd be terrified for the kids you know! +So you're +It's in it's incredible isn't +You +it? +Birkenhead lady are you? +Yo ah I I was born in Liverpool and I mother, sort of a very old family a but erm +In what part of Liverpool? +Do you +Er I was born in the it's off erm I don't suppose it's there any more erm +What's the road? +what is the road that comes down erm joins erm you know where the Hippodrome er, used to be? +No, not at all. +No, erm +It's not West Derby Road, round there is it? +Yes! +It's at well i +See when you said the Hippodrome +it no, and it, no +this this road comes , well there's the Hippodrome there or was, I don't suppose it's there now and you go, at this road here so it's this way on the West Derby Road comes this way +I seem to remember the pub +Erm +called The Grapes round there, is there? +The Breacon Well there was one called the +Breacon Well on that road +That's right! +Lo , and this is, you go rou is is near to Lodge Lane +and you went up +round that way, it is? +No, no. +Erm +Edge Lane? +No. +Prescott Road. +No, Edge Lane is over that way. +Got West Derby Road and Prescott Road. +No, no, you're going the other way! +Oh! +Erm +When you're coming +You know, going, as if you were going to erm do you know where the erm the, the funny thing was and the Brow , Everton Brow , there was a +Well I know Everton, yeah. +cafe place erm what's that +I use +thing? +Where they used to ma , yes. +What wa , what is it ? +But they used to make it. +Yes. +The +I dunno I +the old ladies we used make the erm Everton coffee. +Coffee , yes. +Erm there was like a water tower thing in erm +I don't know +and a piece of a green railing rai , you know, if it was railed all round. +Oh I see! +Erm well this road went up to erm Breckfield Road +Oh yes, I remember that! +Well Breckfield Road North +Breckfield Road +and then ran +I know the name. +between +Beside the Cabbage Hall was it? +No. +Pictures? +No. +I don't think so. +Yeah it's nineteen fifty when I left, you know, it's a long time ago! +And we wha well what if +that was Highton you know, not Liverpool +Yeah. +itself, that was a +and then we moved from there to er +Going out to Skelmey is it? +Skelmersdale, or has tha that's gone? +No, somewhere round er Queen's Drive, +Oh Queen's Drive! +that wo , you know at the end of erm +That's nice,. +Yes, it was very nice! mum liked +Ooh! +it, but pop didn't. +Lot of doctors there and +Because he printed the Echo and er when he was working late he couldn't get out there. +Mm. +And he missed his +Mm. +erm drinking partners I think. +So he +Oh yeah! +decided that we're moving back further in you know. +Mm mm +back further in. +Which is a pity and then of course they started throwing bombs around and we, we were, we were evacuated +I see. +to erm a place called Bridgenorth in between Bridgenorth and Kidderminster. +I know I've se you know,Bridgenorth I've seen the signs there, I've never been there and er +But the first time we went +carpets, isn't that there? +Where did we go first time? +Lot of carpets. +We we , we went twice on tha , we were evacuated twice. +We went to Welsh Hanson first erm my mum went as a volunteer, er a voluntary helper to eight children in charge of eight children. +We used to troop behind her wherever she went. +We went sort of walk behind her like brown cow, you know ! +Mm. +And one day we were coming along and these local ladies were coming towards us said oh we love going down the country roads and you know, oh look at all these poor refugees! +Mm. +Well it's just my mother, you know +. +Ooh!hor hor +Refugees! +My dear ladies these children are in their own country! +They're not refugees +And well looked after! +they're evacuees! +What a thing to say! +Probably thought, ooh the poor devils, you know they +Ya. +Ya. +Well it's no wonder, we used to all troop behind her in ones and twos, you know like +Like a load of ducklings! +Hang about! +Doing the erm +Oh erm Theresa! +The Bedford chair +The one that's gone home? +Yeah. +Theresa? +She left me her lemonade. +Oh yes! +I didn't know, she'd done three years she said! +Pardon? +Done three years, er here. +Has she? +That's what she said. +I've never seen her before this year! +She probably comes on another day. +Must do! +Well I'm not supposed to be telling you it anyway!. +What are you on er +Already +May? +You're on three days are you, or what? +No one day. +Oh just the one day? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Today? +Yeah. +But you can come in tomorrow if you want? +If I wanted to, yes. +That's fair enough. +That's what Pat and I gonna do next year. +Yeah , that's what we're gonna do. +Yeah. +Sauce for the goose! +Got that fixed. +I've never been in on a Friday afternoon because erm +Friday +It's good! +is wonderful! +Nice and quiet. +If I was desperate to finish something then I prefer to come on a Friday. +Oh it's lo , it's lovely on a Friday isn't it Pat? +Yeah. +No aggro. +It's the best day! +Well it always was Friday! +sort of erm nobody seems to be in a flap and it +Yeah. +and you just ge . +Do what you want come in here, go in the other room and +Yeah. +go and have a sleep! +It's the day to get things done isn't it? +It is +I think +yeah! +It is! +And you got a bit more room . +Yeah. +You gotta be careful ! +We drove up, my grandson go goes to nursery you see and I like to give Gwen a hand with the girls, I gotta be up with now well it's driving everybody round the bend! +Sometimes it loosens up with a +Aha! +bit of methylated. +Yeah? +Two and half, and three and a half. +Good old Joan! +Into everything ! +Well our daughter said that erm she keeps trying to get a job you know, she's got these three kids, she's on her own so +Oh is she?well how old's +and er +the youngest? +er five I think +Mm. +and the eldest only +five, eight, eight's the eldest. +Five, they've got the girls , they're going to school now aren't +Yes. +they? +But, you know it but erm well, she said the other week +Bet it's hard you know! +the job that could be going is at, this erm and they do these tapes or something in Flint +Oh yeah. +Er Saturday and Sunday. +Cos well if you could have the kids you know ! +No, not two days running Ray! +Oh oh! +You need one day to recuperate! +What? +You get a bit passed it you know! +Yeah. +No, I, oh I ca , I can manage them, you know, two or three days when they were babies when they were younger! +I know, but it's all +but now they can si , run so fast +I know! +you know! +I know! +And she lives right on the , they get out of the gate . +You got no chance of catching you +Oh Lord, no chance! +When you think though, it's history isn't it, repeating itself? +Well it is my case. +Oh yes,. +You know I took himself off to the Park the other day, the the tiny one you know!and fortunately I wasn't in charge, his father was in charge of them. +Gone up to their their room to pick up some their toys I wouldn't know how to, but the older one can open the gate! +And the er she was running down the hill on but a lorry found them in Vale Park! +Playing ! +It's awful today, isn't it? +They're not safe leaving their ruddy gate are they? +Cos David told me shocked be quite funny ! +But he says to he phoned him the other day on my down this morning ha so just to say, you know, that was crime of the century ! +Mind you, I er, I didn't know. +Well when you think I was only saying +this last week to friends,i , we, you used to live live on the street and we were just playing you know. +You know, not +Makes a difference. +very few cars,e even in the city yo the side streets +Right. +so I feel safe to play. +But I mean today +There's so many weirdos around the, Ray now, yeah. +Well this is the other thing +Especially in in parks and things, yeah. +So without their parents lot of kids spend their time watching the telly don't they? +And videos and er and the these kids of our Carrie's they know how to work all these +Oh yeah! +machines. +Thing there with these fellers going along this thing. +He tells me to how put +But but but +the video games in now! +There's one now you press to ,twe , you press twelve and you I don't know ! +Wish she'd come and tell me how to set ours for a film that's on about +Yeah ! +three o 'clock in the morning that I want to see because we're +Oh! +ha you know it'd be handy that wouldn't it, if you could knew how to +Yeah. +set it? +Do you know how to do it Pat, do you? +No, I don't ! +No, +We tried it once and we got the wrong ruddy film we did! +So I dunno! +We , what make have you got Ray? +What make is it? +Er +Sony? +Yeah, it is, yes, I think it's a Sony, yeah. +Mm. +But I mean, they're all the same aren't they, basically? +I'll ask Brett to draw you a diagram cos she's knows how to do it. +But all I want is a knob to say right film tonight +Yeah. +Yeah, it's on timer. +three o'clock. +That's all I want. +Yeah. +Yeah,ye that's not that simple is it? +You've gotta go through a sequence you see. +Have +Oh have you? +Oh yes! +Oh I haven't a clue! +I really +I was +haven't got a clue! +Sam explained it to us once, in the end he said oh I'm go , I'm going home, he said You know, he he started asking us questions ! +We flunk! +Didn't give you a written tape a ho +Oh! +Oh, he said, it's easy look! +You do it with this bub bub bub bub bub +Yeah. +And the light started going. +Yes, well that's all very well when they know ho , well it's like those erm computer things isn't it? +You know, they +Well Paul's got one of these at home it does +and tha one of my son-in-laws, he said +it does everything! +now look, it's easy, you do this, this, this! +I know, yes! +first! +I know, yes. +But you can't, you know +Yeah. +you're not taking in what he's doing. +I know. +I got no interest at all me! +blow down. +You know, show me a . +All I want is easy knobs to turn with +Mm. +big letters on the oh dear me! +He says, for a start get your glasses on first! +Yes! +That's right! +That's a foot down a straight away isn't it, yeah ! +You can't really see. +Oh dear me! +Mind you, they come to us sometimes for advice on jobs and that don't they? +Oh yeah. +Mm. +Works in both ways. +We may be the wrinklies but we +grow upwards. +we know a bit! +Oh no +it was supposed to be here. +Mind you, gotta clean it all out and +Take it out you got, I see, because you +drawing it +can pull it too tight I suppose and then er +it's gonna be right at the front. +But I felt I should of worn it out of the material. +Oh I see yes, that's good! +Good! +Good! +Good! +look like. +In keeping with a a camber as well, are you, on that? +Is that part of the +Sorry? +you're taking the camber as well on this +Yeah. +part are you? +Yeah. +Getting the hold right, yes. +It's a lovely chair though isn't it? +It's worth +Lovely! +spending a bit of time isn't it? +Oh, you've got to! +No, you tend to rush a job like that and then goof you wouldn't be happy. +Mm, it is yours is it, or +No , it's mine! +Yeah, no, I bought it +Oh it's yours! +I bought in think I'd get it +Lovely! +How much? +I paid forty five for it. +Well done! +And in fact, it's been a that's why you needed quite a bit doing to it. +That's old isn't it? +Yes it's a twin. +Victorian . +Oh well, I told you saw one +at The Cabe i in pa antiques in Chester erm well, it's a nursing chair it wa , it was an armchair. +Oh yeah. +I forget whether it had wings on it or not. +Er, I don't even know The Cabe it's quite fancy isn't it, the stuff they've got? +I've, I've never been to The Cabe actually. +It's lo it is worth a look. +But they had this +Is it near Melody Antiques? +Go no further, I'm going towards Sainsburys +Oh I know! +Oh yes! +On the fifty one is it? +The Cristleton Road. +I know, yes, yes, yes! +And it's right opposite or near the well, not opposite the Billets it was the auction rooms before +Yes. +you get to there. +Yes. +But they had one in the corner you see and I could see the back leg was gone said to Margaret an said I might as well do something of that, you know, to do up it's the only one that they had there that wanted really wanted repairing, so the feller said ooh I don't know he said hang on, I'll look in the book. +Very, very lucky! +Victorian walnut. +A hundred and forty. +The state it was in ! +Oh that's crazy! +I said oh, I said, I'm very sorry but I don't kno , don't know what you'd have to charge to justify that you know, to buy it and then do it up, I don't know! +Yeah. +You'd have to get two hundred and fifty at least, wouldn't you? +So I thought that was a bit greedy so, that's not bad at all that! +That would go for a lot more in Mold +Would it? +Oh yes! +Oh yeah! +Definitely! +Which one do you get it from? +I got this in +Tell me. +is it Philips? +Philips in Chester. +Oh that's the one you're oh! +But what it wanted to +Monday, isn't it? +The go +Mm. +on a Monday? +But it is a, it wasn't a, it wasn't in ordinary auction what is was, somebody had died in Nantwich and they were doing selling the contents the of her house +Oh I see, clearing. +and it it was on a, on another day, I can't remember what day it was, but there wa +Oh I see! +but she said there weren't many people there actually and I got that but the proceeds +He is Welsh. +were all going to the R S P C A. +Ah! +Special sale! +Ooh I'll have make a not of that! +I saw erm we saw a campaign chair near Mold week before last it was I asked the guy how much put down on it, you know, he said thirty pounds so I sa , I said I saw it for forty. +Didn't stay! +When you can get choice of them, if they're going for forty over a piece! +Mm. +Forty five, fifty, something like that. +And all it was, was a tiny thing, like a ruddy camp stool! +And the leg so he said, well half a leg was missing. +So I thought well I'm in with a chance, you know, one's wanted a and this leg repairing so compare it with that no +No +comparison really! +Very, very reasonable! +Mm. +You got a chair that's worth another couple of hundred there so well, not yet. +Get this bit right on the back! +Oh! +God! +Ah! +Don't you get critical when you've been here a bit? +John, I've got to get the car on the ramps. +Feel my back breaking! +Is there any way to stop those ramps +Yes. +shooting away. +That's why,. +I used to get two four by fours from the wall in the house. +Well I mean, that's an idea +No I can't do it I haven't got these ! +And but they seem to shoot away though. +Bit of carpet. +Carpet on on what? +On that. +On the ramps? +Well on, no o on the floor. +No, you know the actual ramp itself +Yes. +It's in, it's in rungs is it, yes? +Yes. +The bottom rung bit of carpet round that line and wrap round the bottom rung. +So, but if a tyre runs on that you won't end up +Oh I see! +The car . +It won't fall back. +It's like double. +Yeah. +Hey! +Of course, that's right it's cos it's got it on the . +Yeah, so you're alright dad, just go on. +Ah, you don't +You could you could make loads I can make loads of them! +Yeah, but the good thing, you know +It's a good ramp innit, you see? +Yeah. +But I, you know, I told you the front brakes they er snapped the middle and all this. +Yeah ! +But this week, because the handbrake is a, wanted tightening up, you know, but I'll do that get it's M O T in another weeks time. +Yeah. +So er took off the shoes one side had gone! +Oh oh Christ! +You know cylinders! +Cylinders all round, haven't you dad? +Have you got the +No, it's only one side. +Oh right. +So you get rubbers for it? +No, I'll get a new one, I thought I'd co +Only + +time when I first came to . +And how old were you then? +I should say about six or seven. +What year would that be? +Tt Let's see, I'm sixty one now, so sixty one that's er twenty one isn't it? +Twenty one. +Yeah. +Twenty one ye Nineteen twenty one when I first came to . +But it had been just just a wee little village then. +We had we had the two schools, the School and the what we call the Boys School, that was the other one on on the green and it the girl's school, near this school, you started there as an infant between five and seven. +And then the girls stayed on till they were fourteen. +But when the boys became seven they they went on to this school on the green. +Now the village green in those days was all ashes, completely all ashes. +N not as it is today, beautiful green grass and we used to play er cricket, football, marbles er pitch card, ring tor, er duckie stone, and all that of course the village in those days was divided into two parts and if you lived over 's Hill you was a downtowner. +And if you lived this end of the village you was an uptowner, see? +And we used to arrange football teams, cricket teams, during the before you went into school, playtime and very often when you came out of school. +But if you went over the hill, after school time, then you were in for a fairly rough time the other end, you were challenged and all sorts of things. +And of course there were no houses down where the village ha past the village hall in those days. +I think Row was about the last row in and of course you'd got all the fields, Gardens and what have you. +And there was nothing till you got to the Grange, absolutely nothing. +And there was just, well Road, other than er the Estate was pretty well the same as it is today, very little improved. +And the w the road might have been widened but the houses are the same and er the er of course with a lot of The old factories have been pulled down, Mills was pulled down, that was a v very prosperous f factory at one time, when I was a boy, but er I'm afraid that went according to you know the lack of trade. +It was er The village centre is about the same as it was when I was a boy, more busier of course, all the private houses that were on the front, you know, Street? +That's all been altered,i they've all been made into shops and spoilt the you know, the and there used to be old 's, the shoe shop and Mr. 's watch shop and Mrs 's pastry shop. +Mr , the bar local barber, who's son lives next door, for years, he used to start at nine o'clock in the morning and finish at nine o'clock at night. +Still cutting hair at nine o'clock at night and shaving people, penny and tuppence a time. +Old Mr , the old er, our only, as I could remember,centurian , died when he was a hundred and two. +He was going to have his hair cut w in every and a shave Mr er 's barber shop right up until practically the morning he died. +And he did his own gardening, right up, when he was a hundred, he was fit as a fiddle when he was a hundred, doing his own gardening. +Where about did your family live? +The first house they lived in +? +The first house that I can remember was on Road. +That's just by where your friend lives. +lived in that house there and it was three shillings a week, I think it was, two up and two down. +One biggish living room and a little back kitchen with no water and no sanitation and if you wanted to dispose of your water you'd have to take it out on the roadside and chuck it down the main drain. +And you used to have to fetch your water from the pump's head, just round the corner, outside toilets, we used to have to go about fifty yards to use the toilet. +And then you'd share it with somebody else on the same row. +Yeah. +And it was a fight for the f towards the end of the week it was a fight to sort of say, Well,Shan't be able to move it,use it until t the man comes. +But although in that house there was eight of us +That was your? +Mum and Dad and six kids, there was four in one bedroom, me sister, me and her my Me two sisters in the slept in in a double bed in me Mam's bedroom and we four lads slept in the back bedroom w w whi which was just just big enough to get a double bed in, as you can see, and there was two that slept at the top, and two slept at the bottom. +And you can guess what that was like with four four of us in bed,Hey Wi move your feet. +And and of course y you didn't have extra blankets in those days, you had to fetch your Dad's topcoat up and put on if you're cold. +That's sort of business. +What did your Dad do for a living? +Well Dad, he worked in the ammu in the munitions at Coventry, down Lane for the Humber people, during the war. +That's how he g He's native is here, he's a native of , there was a very big sam family of them, about seventeen brothers. +And they always formed the Village Church Choir,, see? +But he was tt er a twist hand in the hosiery trade, making socks, and he worked in the last mobile, not mobile, er mechanical stocking manufacturers, owned by my uncle, Mr Frank , in Street and th what we used to called Street. +It was never known as Street in those days, it was called the Street. +And they had a big tt gas engine there with a great big flywheel and you can see these machines today, they didn't make them round, they used to make them flat. +See? +And i the bobbins an and that used to run across like that, the shuttle always used to run across like that +From side to side ? +Aye. +And er great big pulleys with three inch leather belts, if they'd have done it in, er do it in these days and the factory inspector would have cut him to pieces. +And I can see the o old father when he used to have s want to make the mo the machine immobile, while he did something particular to it, so like you switching the electricity off, well,h he used to have to take the belts off. +He used to get this brush handle and shove it in between the belts, like that, and twist it off like that. +Then when he wanted it to go again he used to get the th the belt, the leather belt, and er sort of hook it on to the lower end of the cast iron pulley and follow it round until it went on. +.And that's how they used to start the o and the old gas engine it used to pop pop pop, pop pop pop, pop pop pop pop. +.A y That was the last one of the mechanized o Well, it was the only mo er mechanized stocking stockinger's shop in the village. +The rest was all hand operated, which was , was infested by stockinger's shops in those days. +That was the framework? +The framework +knitters? +Yeah. +And you can You can see the n the buildings And there are one or two of them pulled down now. +I don't remember all I The last man I can remember working one was Mr , Joe , and he was down he The last one I can remember, as I say, was being operated in in the yard just down Street. +Opposite to Mr where Mr Fred used to live, at the back of his house. +That was the last one I can remember being worked there, but I do remember Frank , where me Dad worked. +Then of course, me Dad, when that closed down, it was like everything else, it's as bad as it is today, for jobs. +They couldn't get work and my poor old Dad went miles round these outside villages, on a a old lady's push-bike, trying to find work. +And the work they'd go for They were building their house, they'd v volunteer to take the footings out, or dig trenches to, or find out which farmer would have the threshing engine to do the, you know, to help them with the threshing, which was arduous work in those days. +Fetching coal and water for this poor old steam engine , taking the chaff away, which was a filthy, horrible job. +. Carrying sacks of beans and s oats, up into the storage block in sixteen stone bags and twelve stone bags. +And how they used to They used to put them on like a You know what these two-wheeled barrows like they put the sacks on, don't you? +Well, it was a similar thing to that, only bigger. +tt They'd got two handles which was b made it mobile, two wheels, and used it Have four sacks at the end of this threshing engine, hanging on little hooks, and and a bloke there seeing that it got filled alright and it when it was full, they used to run this thing underneath a sack, crank it up by hand, like that, till they got it to the required height, then nestle it on their shoulders, you see there was a There's a there's an art in carrying c In carrying coal and there's an art in carrying corn and there's an art in carrying beef. +There's an art in carrying everything, which makes it easy, if you know how. +But if you don't know how, it'll kill you. +Same as all farm work, see, farm work They don't know as they're born these days, these youngsters don't, when they come to talking about farming. +used to have to w run the old b back the old horse and cart into the co crew yard which had been standing all year with about umpteen beasts on it, trampling it down, more straw, trample it down, more straw, trample it down. +Then in back end they used to empty this crew yard and you used to have to handle all that with forks, muck forks, they used to call them, and that was big biggest fork and by God, they used to pull your heart out. +You can guess what it was like, straw and everything, being trampled down all winter, sodden with with water and everything. +And then when that was done you used to have to take it to the field,and put it in we we used to put it in big heaps and then come back, fill it up, and then go out and spread it. +And +So +the o the old farmer used to go along with his one furrow plough, and a pair of good horses, and it was no mean feat. +I mean it th th they were called farm labourers in those days, but they weren't labourers, they were clever men, clever men, make no mistake about that. +I mean today, you've got to be an educated man to know how to even, they've got er tractors and everything, but in those days you'd got to set your plough furrow out so as you you could run your plough down your first one, and then as you as you ploughed your first furrow out you'd got to plough your next one into it. +Ten inch furrow. +And keep old Dobbin in his in his furrow. +One in the furrow and one on the stubble, see? +And you used to do that at a ten inch blade all day, up and down that field. +Day in and day out, today they can Same with old mowing machines, they used to go out To open a field up in those days, they used to have to go round with a scythe. +Go right round a f these the field and cut your first swathe out and tie it up with a a load of the straw that you'd cut and bind it up, bundle it up and shove that in the hedge bottom. +Then the old old binder used to come in with two two year old stalwarts, horses, and he used to go round this field and it used to take him days. +And then after the first seven or eight s cuttings, then they used to come along stooking. +You used to get two shears underneath your arm like that, and they used to drop them down like that, across your knees and top them like that, see? +And you used to put eight to a stook, that was so it would dry out, you see? +And er and when that was been in the field whatever days, depending on the weather, if you'd got a good dry summer well you'd perhaps take it in in after a week, you see? +And then we used to and they used to come along with the old cart and start leading. +And when they'd finished milking at, they'd usually start milking about half past four in the morning, some of them used to go delivering milk and then they used to go leading. +What we call leading, that was picking your corn up. +And they'd knock off for a bit of dinner, come back, and do the second milking. +Wash your cans up erm and er and then they'd go and finish off in the corn fields. +And I used to go down you used to see all the mams and kids going down the moors here, taking their dad's tea, down in the fields, so they could have a bit of something and then finish as got dark. +And then they'd wind their way home with the old port and everything. +And hay harvesting was a different kettle of fish altogether. +Admitting you went in the fields, but you didn't open the field up in th erm with a hay harvesting, you used to go in with your cutter, straight away. +Take , you didn't bother about the headlands, you'd do your headlands after you'd mown all your and then of course then that was left to dry, after two or three days, depending on the weather again. +You used to go in the fields and turn it and when it had been turned they used to start leading. +And i if the man in the field had got a grudge against a bloke who was stacking i or taking off in the stack yard he could make life hell. +Cos there's a way of putting hay on the cart and you used to have to start one lot in the corner, one lot in the other corner, another lot at the back, another lot at the back at the other side and then you'd fill in your centre. +See? +And when you'd got your centre filled in, you used to start again,, one in the corner, one the other corner, one between the eyes, one in the middle and back again. +Now if you'd got grudge against the bloke who was taking it off in the shop, in the farmyard, after when you got back home, of course you had to come I mean they didn't stick it in the field, like they do now. +You used to have to bring the stuff to the farmyard to store it, you see? +And if the old boy in the field had got a grudge against the bloke taking it off he used to shove it anywhere so he'd have to pull it off, instead of following the the seam round, you see? +By God it was hard, it was hard work in those days. +And see the same with mangle tagging,dunnet tagging, sugar beet pulling. +Sugar beeting in those days, you used to stick the old plough in, plough them up and then we had to go along knocking them, to knock all the soil off, then chop the tops off, put them in heaps, go along with the old horse and cart. +Load them up and then t take them to the heap and ready for off again to the market. +did it, it was all road transported in them days. +M sh you see that I was saying, to be a farm labourer in those days you'd got to be a clever man, you'd got to know how much wheat to shove to an acre, no waste, you see? +You couldn't afford the waste. +Even though it was cheap in those days the farm farmer couldn't afford to waste it. +Oh no. +And then of course your sugar beet went direct to Colwick and it used to go by horse and cart in those days. +And er but your y mangles and your potatoes, they went in pits, in the field. +And of course you your mangles was for your a and your turnips for your Winter fodder. +And that was another d another task. +You used to have a special chopper for your mangles and it was like a big mincing machine, with a great big wheel on, and you used to fill it full of er mangles, or turnips and it used to come out like chips. +And then you used to mix it up with bran and oats and cake and that sort of stuff, for the horses. +An and then we used to have to and there was no no such a thing as bales in those days, duckie. +No such a thing as bales of straw, it was loose hay stacked, and you used to cut it with a big hay knife. +Oh, great big hefty thing it was, it was an art to cut hay, with these big knives. +And then we used When it g we used to fetch it off then like, cut it and then fetch it off in sheaths, like h , you know, like a big slice of bread. +And my God, again it was hard work, we used to put it in this hay chopper, pile it in and chop and it used to come out like chaff. +And that was for your horses, you see? +An and they had to be fed. +The horse man used to have to go before anybody else, to feed the horses so that, and groom them, currycomb them, water them and do everything, before any of the farmers dare take them out on the fields. +Yeah. +So were these temporary jobs your father had on the farm? +They'd do anything, my duck. +Did you used to go and help on the farm as well? +Oh aye, of course you do, you had to do, you used to go tater- picking, my duckie, for one and sixpence a day. +And if you were lucky, and you got a good farmer, he'd let you take one o what we call roasters, home. +So you your Mam could shove them in the oven and roast them for you, take your own bucket. +You'd be, oh perhaps twenty or thirty of us, in these fields and you used to do so A length, what you call a length. +You'd perhaps have three of you picking up er the potatoes and then another length, another wat another lot of kids, another three used to do another length. +And then when the old spinney used to come up again,if you were lucky, he'd probably He had a probably a little wait before you'd finished the other, you see? +Keglet pulling. +Stone-picking. +Oh, singling, mangles, turnips, anything like that. +One and sixpence a day, but Mr was the best paid, was two bob a day. +And we always u Everybody used to try and get to 's. +This was while you were still at school ? +This was while we were still at scho Well, you used to have a week off of school, my darling, for tater-picking, only. +When I was kids. +Did you do any other jobs, part-time +Paper +jobs while you were still at school ? +Paper boy. +Taking it out and all these what's name, half a crown a week. +On Lane, walking it. +Come rain, come shine. +And you had to put it in the letter box, you daren't leave it in the in the . +Milk round, with the old ladle and jug. +And you'd be surprised what you had to put your milk in in those days. +Anything. +And we used to do that twice a day, my darling, not once a day, twice a day. +And then come and then wash your own cans out, and you used to carry them all through all round the village. +Then I got a bike, and I was alright then, I could put two milk churns on. +But you couldn't fill th the milk churns then, you used to have the half pint and pint measures, hanging inside your milk. +And it was milk, full of cream. +When you've got up next morni And then we I can tell you another thing, and very few people know about it, especially I bet you don't know wha what they called beastlings, do you? +Well in those days beastlings was a lux it wasn't a luxury because you could get it for nothing. +They used The farmers used to give them to you. +And it was milk, after they'd milked the cow first time, after she'd had a calf, well the first milking, they usually got blood in the milk, you see? +But the second milking, and so forth on, perhaps the thir second or third milking they used to get milk, what they called beastlings and it was very often too much for the calves to take, so she got a full bag. +So they had to draw it off, you see? +And if anybody had got a cow and it calved, we used to go to him and say could we have the beastlings, please. +Then your Mam used to make p pastry and put these beastlings in and make a beastling custard. +. And it was beautiful. +You didn't need you didn't need eggs in that, so forth and fifth, in that stuff. +Full of all the vitamins and everything. +You used to And then you could also go to the local farmer's and take away a quart jug, for two penn'orth of skimmed milk. +And that sort of thing. +Did your Mum do any sort of work at all? +Mum, she'd got to do, darling. +Six kids, Dad on a few shillings a week, when he was out of work, Mam had to go out scrubbing, washing. +My poor mother had got corns on across her her knuckles, right to the very day she died, from scrubbing for different people, and skivvying, up there. +these skivvies, in, what we called skivvies in those days, at these big houses up round a about the village. +Y you got about twelve and sixpence a w a year. +And w half a day a w a week and had to be in by nine o'clock. +My mother was was servant to , at the croft up there,about fifteen bob a week and she didn't know when she used to come home. +Eight o'clock in the morning till eight nine o'clock at night. +Cooking dinner, and if she got a what's-a-name,if they'd got parties on, she used to stop there had to stop there till two. +What happened to you kids while she was out working ? +we had to look after ourselves. +And if me Dad wasn't home at work,a out at work, he used to have to do it. +My father, six kids on a Friday night, we used to put a bucket of water on the hot sink, on the old gas stove and my father used to bath us six kids in front of the fire. +Friday night. +And never once on a Sunday morning did that man fail to get up and cook our breakfast and polish our shoes, so that we'd go smart and good to Sunday School. +Never once. +Yeah. +My poor old mother, and me sister finished at the same big house, servant there for them. +Same Oh. +And the mothers had to do it in those days, half a crown to do all the washing for this woman. +And you used to get up and light the copper fire, fill this old copper, which held about ten gallons, and then put plenty of stack o slack on it. +And it was there was no what's-a-name in there. +I can remember me first Mother's, what she called, automatic washer. +By God, I can remember that as if it was yesterday. +And it was a little square thing, about two foot square, with a er and about eight inches deep, tt and you used to put the clothes in, with warm water and your your powder, close the top and you used to have a handle, and Like that there, and you used to be backwards and forwards, like that,, with this paddle going backwards and forwards inside it. +And that's what they called the first automatic washer. +Aye. +And of course they'd never They very rarely thought of washing clothes in tap water those days, it was all rainwater. +Every house had got it's own it's own rainwater tub. +And by God, it were a luxury if w you washed out holding hot water first thing in the morning. +You used to go out in the in the wash-house and wash yourselves, under the cold water tap. +Up to the eyes in snow, up to the toilet which was about twenty yards away, that was where lived then, in the house where Building Society is now, lived there for thirty four year. +Where's that? +On Street. +Can you remember things that your mother used to do to make the money go further when +I can. +when you were short? +Oh, yes, well I mean I o obviously I When she worked She used to get up I'll tell you another thing that she used to do. +She used to get up in the morning, every Tuesday and Friday and catch the half past seven bus, from to Nottingham and another bus down to Boulevard, to Miss 's, do a day's skivvying and come back again, and then do her ironing and so forth, at night-time. +And my God, they weren't such facilities as er what's-a-name, if it was er wet weather. +You Every house had got lines across the the kitchen, you used to put hang the washing in the kitchen, to get it dry. +On the fireguard, above the fireplace,i there wasn't many houses that hadn't got a line across the fireplace, like that. +And you'd put handkerchiefs and collars and that, and you used to have to starch the collars in those days. +Robin's Starch, Beckett's Blue, and all this and that. +And then of course they used to iron them. +And it was hell's own job with sitting in the kitchen at night-time, a little kitchen, with washing hanging above your head, so the poor bugger could get it dry. +This was other people's washing that she took in ? +Aye. +And her own. +And we didn't We hadn't got a wash-house of our own, we used to have to go to Miss 's, down the road, to do our washing. +Borrow Miss 's. +Why was that? +You hadn't got We hadn't got a washing we hadn't got a wash-house. +Oh, you were lucky if you'd got a wash-house attached to your house, in those days. +You had to go to go to Miss 's and have it do it there, borrow her copper, and wringer. +Blimey, no, it was a luxury if you'd got a washer then. +And i and of course when she worked When Mum used to work in Nottingham you could er be assured that you'd have some bacon on a Saturday, and Sunday, because she used to call at T. N. 's in Street, and buy sixpenny worth of bits of bacon. +Which was, say, when they'd started the the roll of bacon, there always used to be some little bits before they got the full rashers, well, you couldn't sell those, you couldn't s I mean even though things were tight in those days, you couldn't sell any sort of bacon, you either sold best back, or you sold belly bacon. +And the bits that you got off, well, we poorer families used to have it then. +Had to have that. +Eggs were twenty four a shilling, little little eggs, looked like bullet eggs, came from Egypt. +You still had to ask your Dad for a top off the egg if you were if you were a poor family. +So only your Dad got an egg? +On occasions, yes. +When he was in work, and then sh we used to go to the local butcher's shop on a Saturday night, with the old bag, six o'clock Saturday night to Mr 's. +That's where 's is now on on the hill. +And my Dad used to say Go to Mr 's, and tell him you've come for your Dad's meat. +Half a crown and that's what you got. +Now half a crown in those days was a lot of money, you had to a full day's work for half a crown, make no mistake on that. +Half a crown And you used to come away with a big piece of flat brisket and if he's got any sausage left, or bits a of pork pies, he used to shove a bit of that in. +And Mr , me Dad wants to know if you've got a ham bone? +He says one day, me lad,if you don't come back quick, he said, I shall sell it, threepence, and there was a lot of ham of it, in those days. +Bones. +From the butchers. +Potherbs. +What? +Can you explain what potherbs is ? +Well, I told you what potherbs was, potherbs is what you buy, you go and you perhaps get a couple of sticks of c celery, that was taken off the side, you know? +The trimmings. +Carrots. +Parsnips. +Turnips. +Onion. +And they used to make two penny worth up and that's what they called potherbs, in those days. +Why they were called potherbs, don't ask me, but it was always known as potherbs. +Two penny worth of bones from the butchers, and two penny worth of potherbs. +Now that used to go in the old stew pot and they used to boil the bones till the meat dropped off, and the vegetables And that was your most of your meal for the rest of the week. +And in the morning you used to have soaky very few pe very few lads had breakfast, bacon and eggs, in those days. +It was soaky or porridge. +What's soaky +Porridge? +Soaky? +Soaky was a basin full of bread, with sugar and milk and er a basin full of tea, with sugar and milk, and bread soaked in it. +And you used to have that, that was your breakfast. +And we Nestle's milk. +Nestle's milk conjures up a lot of memories for me. +. We had it in all ways, shapes and forms. +Spread on your bread, eat it by the spoonful, great big chunks of thick bread with Ho e home made jam,y your Mam didn't buy those jams in those days, me darling. +She made her own, did she ? +She made her own chutney, and made her own pickles, even though she was at work. +She used to make all the And er home-made wine. +And always in my attic, in our bedroom, as kids, you could always see dried dock leaves and dried stinking nanny, for poultices, for abscesses and boils. +Always. +And tea. +You always had a bush, that was horrible! +Detestable stuff, but my Dad always insisted that we had an egg cup full, once a week. +What was if for? +To keep your blood clear. +Mm. +And always on a Sunday morning, when you got up, Sunday morning, epsom salts. +A little, enough to cover a silver threepenny bit, in a saucer and some tea on it, and you just had to take it, drink it. +To keep your bowels right. +And as I was saying about all this, you're saying What did my Mother do to eke it out? +Eke the food out? +She used to go to the butchers and get breast of lamb, scrag-end, sheep's head, pig's head. +And if she got half a pig's head she used to cut the pig's head in half and used to use the top half, and that was where the ears was, and everything, boil it until all all the meat dropped off and then she used to put in er a big basin, scrumple it up in her fingers, put some of the juice in, and put a seven pound weight on it, and a saucer, and make brawn. +Now the bottom half,th it's j jaw, you used to boil that and make chap of it, pig's chap, and that was a luxury. +Beautiful. +You don't s see it today, but's it's beautiful. +What is it? +Pig's chap, it's a pig's pig's jaw, the bottom jaw. +Th this part here. +Cheek? +Y yeah. +Mm. +Pig's cheek. +But it's called pig's chap,in those days . +. And on a S Monday, it were always killing day at the Co-op, always killing day. +Then on a Tuesday, they used to make the black puddings, the plonney the scratchings, the potted meat, and they used to come on sale. +You used to see all the scratchings and all stu steaming hot, with the black puddings and the plonney shining like silver sixpences. +And the pork dripping, beef dripping. +Oh yes, it was marvellous, that's how they used to make it, in those days. +Then they You dropped the old er breasts of lamb in the old stew pot, chop it up, and then if there was any left, me Mam used to take it out, so we could eat it cold. +Beautiful s er breast of lamb is, if you've never tried it, my duck. +Get a breast of lamb. +Get your butcher to bone it, make a nice stuffing, roll it up, wrap it in a nice bit of tinfoil, stick it in the oven and you've got a beautiful meal, me darling. +Or the old roast brisket. +Brisket. +You used to do the old brisket, in the saucepans, along with the potherbs and so forth. +Pearl barley, you don't hear pearl barley now. +By God, it was a must in those days, pearl barley. +Y +What was it used for? +With cooking, like rice. +And we used to put it in stews. +You put it in stews, my duck. +Oh yes, and er of course mostly, in these outlying districts, you mostly grew your own vegetables. +And it was always a ritual for the gardeners to have new potatoes and peas ready for Wake Sunday. +When's that? +That was the last Saturday in July, the nearest Saturday to St Peter's. +And we always have used to have that on a Wake Sunday. +New potatoes, home grown new potatoes. +And s i if you were lucky, some ham. +Then on a Sunday night, the village, what they call wakes, they call them wakes in those days, not the village fair, it was the wakes. +Mr used to open up his dragons and start his steam engine and driving the organ, and he used to give an organ recital every wakes' Sunday night for the cot fund. +Cos we used to have support so many cots in the children's hospital, and we used to run concerts. +Mr Len , well known man. +was running all this for the Ruddington cot funds. +.was the fire brigade chief, was a newspaper man , and this was how we ran in this village. +We ran all sorts of little things, see? +And it was a very friendly little village. +My mother, apart from being a skivvying, she used to go out with along with Mrs , doing the hatched, matched and dispatched department. +Now, do you know what that is? +Well, that's the births, marriages and deaths. +And if anybody was sick, in those days, and they were nearly dying, we used to sit up with them, night after night. +And if they died, we us I helping my moni my Mother many at time, to wash them down, before they put them in the coffins. +Put the false teeth in, and the pennies in the eyes, and and that sort of thing. +Did she get paid for doing that ? +Aye. +And then you'd send for Mr , the undertaker, or Mr , and he'd come along and measure and then make your coffin. +I've got my Mother's bill here, I'll show it you. +That was what, that was nineteen twenty eight, when I started work and I worked for and M. +,House, Road. +And er I used to get se seven and sixpence a week, seven and sixpence a week. +And of course I wa I was due to learn the trade, I wasn't an apprentice. +I was due to learn the trade from start to finish with the with the idea of getting myself up to getting on the road. +So I started as an errand boy and half a crown a week was my bus fare, which give me, entitled me two journeys, a return journey each day. +From to Nottingham ? +From , it was fourpence, return. +Or if you wanted to go home for your dinner and go back again in the afternoon, well, that was four and sixpence, which entitled you to do a Saturday journey. +And you used to have a little ticket, with the days on, and they used to punch it with the old, you remember the old punching machines, don't you? +Well they used to punch your ticket, with a little hole in, so that they'd know you'd had your journey. +Now as I say, I started at that price and I used to have to help in the warehouse, in the packing and so forth, and then if there was any parcels to go into Nottingham I used to have to deliver them, by hand. +And carry them, either carry them, or push them on a two-wheeled trolley, all through the round the lace market to 's, and various other And if I were lucky, and the 's van was going round the lace market, and I'd got three or four parcels, I used to go with little Tommy and his horse and van, round the lace market, and he was delivering dress goods then. +And then he used to pick the undress goods up to go to G and W 's, still down Road. +See? +And er of course, as years went by I got to a to be on the invoicing side, after that. +So you? +That was an office job was it ? +Yeah. +That was making the invoices out for the parcel. +Oh, and then I went u started as a packer after that, packing, which was an art, in those days. +H we had to pack hampers, and so forth, see? +And big parcels. +And then I went on invoicing. +And then from invoicing, I went into the factory, of course, to learn how the goods were made, which was very interesting. +You see the i it was er we used to make curtains then for Littlewoods, Littlewoods as it is now, they're still, you know, the they were about the forerunners of the er tt this er catalogue business, and if they gave us an order that would last us a long time, and that usually the eight points, which was meant to say there were eight threads to an inch. +That's how you measured curtains in the quality of the curtains was so many points to an inch. +The more points to an inch, the finer the goods were, you see? +If it was just a six point, or a seven point, then it was a real coarse one, cheap, for American markets. +But we used to Littlewoods used to give us an order, for one machine, or two machines, and you could keep your machine on this one particular set of curtains, without changing your jacks, without changing your beams, without changing your bodies, you could work straight on and on and on. +Well, they used to do them at fourpence ha'penny a pair, and each one must be put in a big envelope, so as it could go out on this catalogue business. +And that sort of stuff used to go to America, because in er we had quite a big American market in those days because they didn't wash curtains in America, they used to put them up until they dar until they dropped down and then put new curtains up, you see? +And er we er tt we er we made er a lot of blackout stuff during the war, we had they called the Federation of British Industries, which was an annual fair at Birmingham, and my firm used to s used to exhibit there. +Bu and er of course, most of your work was done from these Federation stores, stalls, Birmingham and London. +And I recall at the beginning of the war,they got a an almost light-proof black out curtaining, and I can re see it today, The Queen bought some, they were on exhibition. +Buckingham Palace I should say, not the Queen, but Buckingham Palace bought some. +And I can remember tenneyex telex coming through and we did our own er er signs in those days, you know, er advertising placards, it was red hot on the press. +Blackout curtaining, as bought by Buckingham Palace. +And of course, you couldn't keep pace with it, because Buckingham Palace had bought it you see, and it was good. +What were these blackout curtains made of, then? +Well it was er, a dense, thick, curtain, so dense that it was hardly visible, because in those days, during the first world war, during the thirty nine forty five war, blackout was essential. +You can't remember the blackout, can you? +You see the idea, was if you had lights in your house and there was just a kink, or chink, they used to call them in those days, they could be spotted from the air, so th You either had wooden shutters at your window, or blackout curtaining. +You weren't allowed to show any lights. +Even the, what few bits of lorries were on the road, they had a special mask on with er a shield over the top, so that the light wasn't visible up above. +Cos, probably you don't realize that, even a cigarette light,if you drew a cigarette, like that, and er and made it glow, it's visible for quite a few hundred yards in the darkness. +And consequently we was all subject, and you were fined very heavily if you were, if you tore these what's- a-names, blackouts, that's the name. +And then of course, we we also made the, at my firm, made the er Battle of Britain curtain, which was very famous, in those days, and I think they're still I used to have one but I don't know where the devil it went to. +Cos it, most of the things got lost during the war, you know? +Dra +That was the + +the participants for H Two will have already discovered, we are still tackling part of H One from yesterday, but, and I apologize that you will have to sit through the outstanding items of discussion. +On the other hand, you will have gathered already that we are going to talk about Greater York, so I think there may be some distinct benefit and merit in you being he here to listen to that, er particular part of the topic, now the, I hope in fact that we can deal with the remainder of H One, because it it does lead quite logically into the next issue which we want to talk about, which is the new settlement in the Greater York area, er and I hope that we can get through this item by our morning break, that but whenever we do conclude on H One we will have to have a slightly longer break just to enable the seating arrangements to be sorted out properly for all participants who are involved in the discussion on the new settlement. +Now can I er also suggest to you that in discussing this one outstanding item of the housing land allocations, we pursue virtually the same sort of approach that we did yesterday, er and in fact if you look at what is set down under matter One D for discussion, it says is the provision proposed for the Greater York area including the new settlement appropriate etcetera, and in fact when you look at the first item for discussion under the Greater York new settlement issue, we come straight into, does Greater York new settlement represent an appropriate and justified policy response, etcetera. +So what I'm going to ask effectively that when we are talking about the Greater York element of the housing land allocation we concentrate on the question of is the level of provision enough? +And we know there are various er responses to that question, and I would be looking to the districts to say whether or not they could cope with the various levels of provision that have been identified for Greater York, and it's the view of whether they can cope within their own districts, I haven't said how you can cope, I said whether you can cope, you might I will I will leave you free to make the odd comment, but I want to focus on that part of the issue, and then the natural corollary to that is, will it be necessary, or is it considered necessary in the context of this alteration to provide specific guidance within H One policy for the distribution of that er development to er at sub, what I would call sub-district level, in other words do you want a specific entry for say Ryedale or Hambledon? +Has anyone got any questions on that approach? +Is it clear how I'd like to play it? +Er so with no more ado I will ask Mr Davis for North Yorkshire to present his opening statement, and then I'd like Mr Curtis, your moment has come Mr Curtis, er to to follow on from Mr Davis. +Thank you. +Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, erm I'd just like to make five brief points in response to the issues that have been raised erm on One D. +The first of those points is the principle of a Greater York dimension to the structure plan, erm we'll all probably be aware that in the original structure plan the Secretary of State wasn't prepared to accept a Greater York dimension in the structure plan, but did accept with the support of the district councils on the first alteration, the inclusion of a Greater York dimension. +Having that Greater York dimension has certainly allowed progress to be achieved dramatically in Greater York, erm, it's led to progress towards progress towards green belt definition, and more importantly it's led towards resolution of future strategy for Greater York. +Er we at the County Council think that to delete that Greater York erm dimension would take us back to the realms of uncertainty, past uncertainty, in the Greater York area, we're therefore proceeding with a Greater York dimension in policy H One at none thousand seven hundred dwellings, which equates to hundred percent migration. +The second point I want to raise is the issue erm of the green belt, er which is er a constraint in Greater York erm we've made significant progress in moving towards the statutory definition of the green belt, the green belt local plan has now completed erm its public enquiry, and a lot of the deliberations in Greater York have centred around the effect on of the green belt on development potential in Greater York, so that is a main issue, I think, in response to issues, the discussion of issues in Greater York. +The third point which has come out in a number erm of comments, certainly from the C P R E is the issue of overshoots in the approved structure plan in respect to Greater York, and as we made clear in paragraph eight of our er erm position statement, we accept that there has been in numeric terms in the period eighty one to ninety two something like fifteen percent overshoot in terms of completions er in that period. +We would wish to stress again, with the district council's support I suspect, that that overshoot really it's to sites within the urban area, as in windfall sites in general planning terms we have seen to be acceptable er in planning terms, but we would wish to stress that part part of that approach has been a continuing resistance to development on greenfield sites on the edge of the the urban area. +The fourth point, Chairman, er is the new settlement issue, and while that's due for discussion on policy H Two, that issue does shall I suggest invade policy H One, because an appropriate form of words has to be agreed in policy H One to reflect the new settlement issue and as you'll be aware the County Council is about a step by step approach towards the finalization of the new settlement erm strategy for Greater York, and then finally, a specific issue that you mentioned is the distribution of developments between the Greater York districts er within Greater York, now as you'll be aware Chairman, that has been done informally, following the original structure plan in nineteen eighty the County and the Districts got together and agreed the distribution of housing and employment land in Greater York. +Following the first alteration, when the Secretary of State approved the Greater York dimension, that matter was resolved amicably between the County and the Districts erm through the er Greater York study, so the issue therefore is there a need for more guidance for the structure plan, to break down the Greater York figure to individual Greater York districts, and our view quite clearly er is the answer that the answer to that is no. +Certainly it would be very difficult to introduce any statistical rational erm to the desegregation of Greater York to its district components, bearing in mind the small populations er in some of the Greater York er districts, we think that the general level of detail erm in the structure plan is appropriate, and we think to go down to any finer detail would be an inappropriate to a structure plan, and thirdly I think on that issue, er we would think that it would prejudice erm the work that District Council would want to do erm in their er local plans. +So those, Chairman, are the five points er that I wanted to raise on Greater York, and obviously we will be interested to hear the response round the table today. +Can I ask Mr can I ask Mr Davis to give us a bit more explanation, please, as to his rationale behind continuing resistance to the development of greenfield sites on the edge of York. +Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, erm I think the clear answer to that is that districts, erm and county, erm were very aware of the greenbelt constraints on greenbelt sites +But +erm adjacent to the urban area. +Are you saying that greenfield development on the edge of York would be in the greenbelt as you have defined it in the deposited local plan. +I'm talking about the the overshoot, and my comments about greenfield sites were related to period eighty one to ninety two, and it became quite clear during the eighties that the sketch plan green belt or development was at that time, through the eighties, was by and large abutting onto the urban area, that er through the eighties what everybody understood to the sketch plan green belt was tight up against er the urban area, so in resisting urban greenfield sites erm on the urban edge through the eighties the County Council were recognizing the greenbelt constraints. +That isn't quite the question I asked. +Unless you are telling me that the sketch greenbelt local plan is the same as the deposited greenbelt local plan +Well +is there land between the current edge of development in York and the inner edge of the greenbelt which is as yet undeveloped? +Yes, and then that approach was taken on through the Greater York study, and in the greenbelt local plan, and the Greater York study identified a number of sites. +Part A goes ninety one to ninety six, part B ninety six to two thousand and six, sites adjacent to the urban area in the Greater York study er which were acceptable for development because corporately the districts and the county did not think that those sites discharged a greenbelt function as the greenbelt local plan was progressed those sites were excluded from the greenbelt erm and yes, we did identify a number of sites which did not conflict with greenbelt objectives erm on the urban edge. +Are those sites within the City of York administrative area or other districts? +The the bulk of them erm I think almost without exception are erm in adjoining districts, around York, the significant contribution from York that we identified in the Greater York study, erm largely comes from from windfill windfall sites, by and large. +Which districts, please. +Erm the the bulk of the erm erm commitment erm or the or the sites that we identified, er would be in would be in Ryedale district, in South Ryedale . +Thank you, thank you. +Mr Curtis. +Thank you Chair. +David Curtis, York City Council. +I think some of my er introductory comments might now be inspector, er understand the er sort of urban situation, erm we heard yesterday about er discussion about the similarities between different districts in North Yorkshire and the possible differences. +I think everyone around the table would accept that in this situation York is unique. +York's a historic city of some hundred and four thousand people, covering some two thousand nine hundred hectares, but that city itself is only part of the settlement that I think we would all regard as as York itself, that covers a larger population of some a hundred and thirty five thousand people, er contained er within the York outer ring road, and referenced to the the map submitted with my H One submission, and also the greenbelt plan which we've we've just put up on the board there, er will show you the the broader extent of the urban area. +Clearly in that situation the city of York is highly constrained, it's a modern industrial city with a very tight medieval core, a historic core which is is world renowned, but a historic core which actually only covers four percent of the built area of the city itself, when we look at that wider area erm the central historic core together with the eight other conservation areas in the city and conservation areas in the remainder of the urban settlement comes to some thirteen percent of the urban area. +Furthermore we have a series of major landscape features, er which are been referred to in the greenbelt local plan and elsewhere as wedges, which you'll see from the map enter into the very heart of the city itself. +Some six hundred hectares of that land is actually designated as greenbelt, but in addition within that a number of those areas are er prevented from development in perpetuity we'd argue because a large part of that area has got a historic status as stray land, which is a form of common land, which means it's actually not not available for any form of development, similarly the flood planes of the river Ouse in particular is for physical development reasons er prevented from development in many areas, and those of you who were here this weekend will have no noticed the reason why, it was a flooding that took that took place on the Ouse valley, in addition to those constraints, open space within the city is at a premium erm the city falls below the Emperface standard, erm by er something like erm half a hectare per thousand population, so compared with the Emperface standard of two point four per thousand, the city reaches a quite a generous erm categorization of the recreational space we have available, only a total of two hectares per thousand, therefore, and this is very relevant to the Greater York debate, erm, really the only land for development within the city is recycled land, there are limited number of er sites which have not been developed in recent years erm which can be identified for development, and are being identified for development in our draft local plan. +But the majority of of any development land in the city would be recycled, either from housing uses or industrial uses. +The draft of the city wide local plan will be going to the city council in December, and prove of the consultation, but the figures some of you've seen in our evidence have been a agreed by the the local plan steering group, who sit in council members er across party, committee which has agreed the basic numbers, so the draft allocations which are in our submission, and which we have seen in the schedules yesterday, are accepted as a basis for consultation by the city council but are clearly subject to review. +Turn turning then to just touch on the issues that I've, we didn't cover yesterday for York, erm you'll notice from our H One submission we have a slight difference of opinion with the County Council on the technical side of the er the calculation, we believe that the calculation, we believe that the calculation for York's need rather than three three should be a four thousand figure, taking into account the the issue of concealed households and involuntary sharing. +However, that doesn't have an effect on our er ability to agree a figure of three three for the city itself, in the structure plan, because the work we've done on the local plan taking into account commitments and suitable allowances for small sites, does indicate to us that a figure of three three is achievable, but would be extremely difficult to exceed, the difference here between the four thousand and the three three does, however, have an impact on our neighbours clearly, and as was mentioned yesterday the City Council does own some some twenty nine hectares of land outside its current boundary, er located in the Ryedale District Council area, that land, some of that land has planning consent, the remainder is allocated in the draft Southern Ryedale local plan and was excluded from the greenbelt, that land it is the City Council's intention to use to meet its er requirements for affordable housing, could accommodate some seven hundred dwellings, I think it is very important for me to emphasize that that is a very clear commitment of the City Council, and therefore that land in Ryedale would not er in the majority of its case be available for open market use, we would be seeking to use it to meet er affordable housing requirements. +Er the other point I would make about the the figures under H One, really is that erm the twelve thirty figures that you've seen in the tables is our best estimate at the present time, based on the site survey we've carried out. +That is a very comprehensive survey, erm I wouldn't envisage any additional sites being recommended by the City Council, er at the present time, although clearly some of the sites may be suggested by by a private developers and landowners during the consultation process. +It is quite possible clearly that that number could be reduced, during the consultation process on the on the local plan, I think that's an important point because of the issue of windfall that was mentioned by Mr Davis, and was raised yesterday, reference to historic trends in the city of York do show that erm we have exceeded structure plan targets by substantial amounts, I think the figure is is forty percent or or more, er the County Council could confirm that, slightly difficult calculation to do because I'm sure you'll be aware that to our eternal shame, the City Council has not to date adopted a formal local plan, with reference erm to your question on day one er as to whether or not we might calculate contribution of windfalls in the past, we have looked at the nineteen eighty seven residential land availability er study, which was agreed with the house builders, adjacent districts, and of course the County, and in the five year period of that study, by comparison with the sites that we agreed in the study, an additional four hundred and thirty dwellings came forward and were completed on sites that had not been identified in the study, now I'd I would say very clearly that that level of windfalls erm would not continue in the future and it could not be a reliable basis for erm looking at windfall contributions in the city in the future, clearly the supply of development land in the city is a is a finite resource, er given given the constraints that are current holding, and although some additional windfalls to the two hundred I'd suggested in my H One may come forward, on the other hand I suspect some of the sites suggested in the draft local plan could fall out of the equation. +Just turning briefly to the issue of affordable housing, you'll see from my H One submissions the City Council has a target, er which is in the the York area housing strategy, which is currently with the D O E for its consideration, of something like a hundred and fifty dwellings a year, giving over the fifteen year period a two thousand two hundred target, how we will go about achieving that is primarily, where it's possible using land we already own, or is in ownership of housing associations, and taking into account the the seven dwellings outside the current city boundary, we believe in total they will contribute some fifteen hundred dwellings towards that two thousand two hundred target, this will leave clearly a significant shortfall, and it will therefore be necessary to to seek to negotiate, if I can use the terms of P B G 3 erm with house builders as sites come forward in in the local during the local plan period. +Turning now very briefly to the H One D the Greater York issue, clearly the comments I've made about the calculations for York have a knock on effect for our position on Greater York, the Greater York figures as I understand it from the County Council are based on a one hundred percent migration assumption, if the technical difference between us er we are right then we believe clearly the Greater York figure should be increased by an appropriate amount, and the we've suggested the increased cut should be seven hundred er relating to the city itself I can't calculate with any great accuracy what the figure for the surrounding parts of Greater York might be, but it would be we suspect only another one to two hundred more on top of that, therefore that underst explains the reason why the City Council suggests that the Greater York should be increased to the ten four figure from the nine seven. +The other concern in the City Council's evidence on H One er is this issue of distribution, I note Mr Davis's comments about the difficulties of subdividing the Greater York allocation between different districts, and I I do acknowledge the difficulty in relation to Harrogate, and particularly Hambledon which obviously has a very small proportion of Greater York, on the other hand both Ryedale and Selby do contain a substantial proportion of the Greater York population, er based on my calculations of their er proportion of the population of Greater York which admittedly is a somewhat crude way of of doing estimates, but in the absence of of any other projections that was really the only way to do it, my estimate is that the er compared with the nine seven target of County Council would take in the could potentially be seen to be taking a share of four thousand two hundred in Ryedale and seventeen hundred for Selby, if you base it on their existing population distribution on er part outside the city, now I'm not saying necessarily that's how the way you would do it, but I I think it's an indication that the scale of development in those two districts is quite significant in Greater York, our concern is that the policy as it currently stands does not give any real guidance as to the way in which distribution of development outside the city, but in Greater York, erm can be er should be di divided up, and I think the problem really occurs from the introduction of the new settlement into H One, erm I don't want to stray into the H Two debate Chair, but I think it's the fact that H One does include a figure for the new settlement, that the new settlement is not located within any particular district, but that all the district totals do include in effect a figure which is undetermined at this stage, that that would be absorbed by the new settlement, as I understand the policy at the moment, and I think that really does introduce a problem, erm because clearly all of the emerging districts wide local plans could be in conformity with the structure plan and not include the new settlement, I think it's er interesting to note that the the D O E's recently published a good practice guide, on development plans, did particularly highlight the situation in Greater York, as a problem, as a shortcoming of the existing plan, and if I can just quote it, it does say this, on page forty three, it would seem appropriate for broad locations of new development to be established by means of an alteration to the structure plan. +So we have suggested, erm, you will see in our evidence that policy H One should be amended and their are clearly a number of ways in which that amended amendment could take place, but we would particularly suggest that erm an indication should be given as to what the proportion of each district's allocation is assumed to be going to the new settlement, if the new settlement is is agreed under the H Two discussion, thank you. +Thank you very much, Mr Curtis. +I mean effectively what you're saying is that York has got a capacity for about another three thousand three hundred dwellings? +Yes. +Over a whole range of sites. +After +Yes. +that you're really straining, almost to get a gallon into a pint pot, never mind a quart, aren't you? +David Curtis, York City Council. +Yes, that is correct, sir. +Does that include all land within the city boundary not included in the greenbelt? +Yes. +David Curtis, York City Council. +Yes it does, the there is as you will see from the greenbelt plan,a apart from the issue of the fact that the the city boundary is in many areas er sort of hard up against further urban development so there's no space between the city and the parts in adjacent districts, the greenbelt boundary, as currently proposed by the County Council, erm which as you'll see from our evidence is not a boundary supported in its entirety by the City Council, means there is no further development land between the city boundary and the greenbelt. +Thank you. +Thank you. +I think I'll ask Mr Smith from Ryedale to tell us a little more about Ryedale's problems or efforts +Thank you. +to cope with the pressures from York city itself, and the Greater York area. +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +Erm Ryedale District, as can be seen from the table supplied by Greater York, has taken the largest proportion of the Greater York housing element over the past ten years, as regards the proposed level of future housing growth suggested for the Greater York area, the District Council supports the figure in the structure plan, the Greater York study identified a number of sites around the Greater York area which could accommodate further development without compromising greenbelt objectives or adversely affecting the character of the settlements surrounding York, and within that part of Southern Ryedale within the Greater York area the identified sites were, by and large, incorporated into the Southern Ryedale local plan, which has recently been through the public enquiry, the District Council does not believe that a larger amount of land could be identified within Southern Ryedale, without compromising greenbelt objectives. +As regards the distribution of lands between the districts, erm if I can refer to Mr Curtis's comments first, the Greater York study never anticipated that the distribution of housing around the Greater York the districts would be based around the percentage of population within those districts, but purely on capacity of sites within those districts to accommodate future housing growth without compromising greenbelt objectives, Ryedale, as I've said before, has taken the largest proportion of recent housing in the Greater York area, and has identified a substantial amount of new land for housing within its Southern Ryedale local plan, what the District Council is concerned about is that within the local, Southern Ryedale local plans, this is taking a large proportion of its district wide total plans, yet the District Council from the structure plan figure given is unable to calculate the remainder of housing that should be allocated in the remainder of its district. +What Ryedale is seeking is not a figure for its sector within the Greater York area, and the same with the other districts, but rather a figure for the Greater York area as a whole, and then a figure for the remainder of those parts of the districts outside the Greater York area, so you don't get a situation with my colleagues on the left where you are in the structure plan dictating the number of houses that should be allocated in, for example, two parishes. +I follow the I follow the er the point, but the thing that puzzles me is that your South Ryedale local plan allocations have arisen out of the discussions on the Greater York study, yes? +That is correct, yes. +Where do you go post two thousand and six, for example, in obtaining a strategic view about the distribution of growth around York, and in the Greater York area. +I mean, how is that going to be provided? +How are you going to be given, and I'm making an assumption, of course that the present two tier planning system is still prevailing? +Stick with that scenario, how, how would you anticipate, or how would you expect that strategic guidance to be given as to where development should be appropriately located to serve the needs of Greater York, what mechanism is there in place for being +I it's +given that guidance? +Ian Smith, Ryedale District Council. +Erm beyond two thousand and six, I would have thought the strategic guidance would be in locations other than peripheral expansion around the Greater York area, which I would have suggested would would more than likely be to new settlements. +Can I pursue erm any fact no more without compromising greenbelt objectives, no more than that, er you said a couple of times. +I th I'm not challenging that, I simply wish to be clear what you mean by it. +Two questions. +Does that mean no more without development in the deposited greenbelt, as in the greenbelt as defined in the deposited greenbelt local plan, or does it mean no more unless it is hard up against that greenbelt? +And secondly, to which greenbelt objectives did you refer? +Ian Smith, Ryedale District Council. +Er to answer the first answer the first of your two questions, erm, the greenbelt as defined in the greenbelt local plan is hard up, in many respects, against the edge of the built up area, excluding allocated sites, allocations above that within the Southern Ryedale area would in fact require redrawing green in a green belt boundaries. +But there is allocated land, allocated undeveloped land, between the existing urban edge and the inner edge of the greenbelt? +Yes, where, sorry, Ian Smith, Ryedale District, yes, er where it was considered those allocated sites could be developed without extending development into the greenbelt. +Thank you. +Mr Davis, and then Mr . +I'm sorry there was a second question . +Oh sorry, yes. +Erm the greenbelt objectives which we identify with or could be compromised by significant peripheral expansion, or the expansion of a settlement within the greenbelt, were primarily the effecting the setting of the historic city, which we and the County considered and refer to more than just the green wedges, and but involve the whole countryside, and the setting of the settlements within the greenbelt around the Greater York area, expansion of lar large urban areas into the countryside, possible coalescence of settlements. +Not the historic city itself? +Yes er it the first, yes, setting of the historic city . +How would you describe the setting of the historic core of York. +Erm, it's a city,this takes me back a few months, since the Southern Ryedale local plan enquiry, the character, special character of a city, is derives from a number of elements, there's the green wedges which centre on the strays which penetrate into the heart of the built up area, there is the encircling belt of open countryside which links those areas together, there are the numerous settlements within the greenbelt and their relationship to one another, and to the city of York. +There are a number of viewpoints of the city from the ring road +Yes. +erm, in some of which the Minster is clearly visible, +Mhm. +in a setting of suburban, industrial, residential development, and some of those viewpoints on the ring road all one can see is the suburban, industrial, and residential development. +Ian Smith,Ry +That's what were aiming to preserve, is it? +Well, Ian Smith Ryedale, I think in the majority of views across from the ring road you have a belt of open countryside before that suburban housing. +What you yo were trying to achieve is the expansion of the built up area towards the ring road, and thereby having built development hard up er as it is at the moment the ring road goes through for the most part open countryside on either side of it. +Yes. +Thank you. +Mr Davis. +Very briefly, Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council, you raised the issue of procedures looking at the er post two thousand and six scenario within the light of er a statutory greenbelt er at that time, and I would envisage that the County Council and the Districts, if indeed we're all er in business at er er in in in the next century, would probably want to run a similar sort of exercise that they would be ran through the end of the eighties, and that is to sit down together, er and look at all the options, er that are available for Greater York, in the same way that they did it in ninety eighty nine, one additional factor at that time would be that er the greenbelt would be statutory, and it would be statutory if the County Council and ninety five percent of the district support on sites would be a tight greenbelt so the options would be looked at erm er in that context, on the comments that er Miss Whittaker, erm questions that Miss Whittaker raised, there is a paper that the County Council produced for the greenbelt local plan enquiry that I remember well as N Y Two, which set out in detail the various components, erm of the York greenbelt in addition to the historic title that the that the focus of the green belt comes across a variety of of of of matters, and if it if it is helpful to this panel that document was acceptable by and large, supported by the District, we can certainly put that in, and can circulate it round. +Yes, yes please, if you would. +Thank you, sir. +Mr Grigson. +Steven Grigson from Barton Willmore. +Sir, I would want to come back I susp +Can you? +I will want to come back, I suspect later on. +Am I on? +Thank you. +I want to make a limited point at this juncture, I reserve the right to come back later on, and it's become three points as a result of the discussion we've already had, my view on the contribution of the of the greenbelt to the York issue isn't just the setting of the city, it's the character of the city, and that would include the central city and the historic city, and the need to limit the physical expansion and size of the urban area because of the implications inside the historic city, and that would certainly apply to other cities with greenbelts that I'm familiar with like York, like er Oxford, which the character suffers from expansion, possibly excessive, Norwich, that considered a greenbelt, and London, if you like that didn't get its greenbelt until we had the character rather drastically altered, so I think it isn't just the setting and how you see the city from the ring road, it's actually what happens inside the core, the second point I want to make is really for clarification perhaps, er and it relates to the question of allocations between the built up area and the inner edge of the greenbelt, as I understand it all those allocations are already er included in the Ryedale local plan, and are already therefore included in the commitments that we looked at in Ryedale, I don't think there is a further reserve of spare opportunities that might be used either before or after two thousand and six, that's certainly my understanding and if anybody was was taking a different view I think that should be clear, and now I come to the one point that I was actually going to raise, erm I think it's important that in this discussion of the relations between York city and Greater York, that we get a, early on, a clear view of what the requirements are in York, not just its capacity which we've discussed so far, and a figure of three thousand three hundred seems to be a fairly common currency, but its requirements, and I want to address a particular question to the County Council, which is in my proof, so they've had as it were four weeks notice of it. +And that is that in the projections of housing requirements for the City of York, not Greater York but the City of York, the County Council have a figure of four thousand four hundred households extra, but propose a provision of only three thousand three hundred dwellings extra, that's purely within York, and the question really therefore for the County Council is I had thought that their dwelling requirements, that their, sorry their their policy H One figure for York was what they thought the requirements were, but maybe it's what they think the limited capacity is, and they are foreseeing an overspill of thousand odd from the city of York into Greater York. +Mr Spittle. +Malcolm Spittle the figures in policy H One are quite clearly referred to as provision that will be made in particular settlements, they are not stated as the the requirement for dwellings generated by that particular settlement, erm, that is quite clearly set out in policy H One, that is the wording of the policy. +If the city cannot provide mo , physically more than three thousand three hundred it would not be wise to include a figure of four thousand, five thousand, six thousand, dwellings within the city, that would be misleading and would not provide clear guidance to any local authority in the preparation of their local plan. +I don't think that was the point Mr Grigson was making. +Well the +for clarity is that the actual projected requirements, as a series of projections produced by County Council are for four thousand three hundred households, and a projected requirement for three thousand three hundred dwellings, well quite clearly if the City of York itself cannot accommodate the requirement generated from in that city, then it must be looked at in relation to the whole of the Greater York area, and the projections of the Greater York area do take into account the er the figures generated from within the City of York, therefore, yes, they are included within the Greater York figure. +Do you accept, Mr Spittle, as Mr Grigson says, the projected on a tr on a trend statistical projection, the figure of households for York city is four thousand four hundred? +The figure I think that we, yes I wonder if Mrs Long could re to that particular question ? +Yes. +Mrs Long, North Yorkshire County Council. +Wait a minute, pull the microphone towards you. +Mrs Long, North Yorkshire County Council. +I did the demographic projections, erm, I think the difference that, er, Mr Grigson is talking about between dwellings and households comes about within the ability of the Chelmer model to input, erm, tt, calculated dwelling requirements. +Now I did it in one method and Mr Grigson did it in er in a second method, and the ability to do that changes the number of households that it would project to the er the dwellings, and cancels out, this makes judgements erm on the actual population projections based, which are estimates that have come out, I don't necessarily believe the best measured estimates have come out for York, and have adjusted some of the figures in accordance with that. +Now I'd like to emphasize this as because within York area it saw a difference between the census counts to the actual base population of a growth of five point seven two percent. +This is more than the change that inner London received, and I think it's quite unbelievable that York's population, base population is actually starting of from the figure of er a hundred and three, a hundred and four thousand, and I think York City Council will agree with that in any case, erm, the new major estimates for nineteen ninety two would already suggest that that population's declined by a further thousand, which I think emphasizes that these major estimates are estimates, and because of the differ the difficulties within the census for nineteen ninety one, with under enumeration, some problems may have occurred. +Erm, so I'll agree with Mr Grigson that we do suggest there are more households changing their own dwellings, but it's simply because we're trying to iron out of the problems that we feel have occurred within the major estimates. +What's your projection for the city? +In terms of additional households, ninety one, two thousand and six, please. +Erm, just one moment please four thousand two hundred. +Four? +Four thousand two hundred. +Thank you. +Mr Grigson, is that moving in the direction which you wished to get an answer to your question? +Well it, it, it, it's moving a bit in that direction, I mean I knew what their prediction was cos they kindly supplied it to me, which is why I made the point, but I mean as as you know from our proof we have a higher view of the demographic requirements in York even than that, for reasons that were amply discussed in general on on day one, to do with vacant dwellings, mortality, and I think still probably a difference in migration between us on York, which is statistical rather than environmental, but I think it is important to to have that established early on that that even in the County Council's view, and with their, as it were, doubts about the statistics which they themselves use, that er there is more need generated in York, however much it is, than York itself can accommodate, and that is of course without York city's seven hundred addition for reducing concealed and sharing households which is not in the County Council's figures. +Yes, er I see from the supplementary proof which you have put in the other day, I mean your calculations of York's requirements is six thousand six hundred. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +No doubt we will return to that. +Mr Donson. +Thank you. +Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. +I'd like to take up some points as they've occurred this morning. +Erm, the first point relates to erm affordable housing targets in York, and the consequences that that has in relation not only to York but other areas, on the on the assumption that that there is, there has to be an overspill to to adjou adjacent areas. +Erm, I heard Mr Curtis say that the shortfall of affordable houses was seven hundred, he had a target of two thousand two hundred and felt they could find fifteen hundred somewhere already, so another shortfall of of seven hundred that actually contrasts with para' four one one of the one eleven should I say, four one eleven, of the York housing strategy, which has been submitted, and appendix four of the York evidence which actually says that, yes there's a two thousand two hundred target, but there would still be a shortfall of about one thousand one hundred dwellings if this land, they're talking about land that they own outside of York, is developed for affordable housing. +Well there seems to be a slight mismatch there, and perhaps some of this mismatch is also a part of, with the confusion I have of the various shifting policy of York, in term in terms of their requirement, there has been in the in the not too recent recent past York were saying they had an additional requirement beyond need which they termed their concealed requirement, although it might not be a concealed dwellings, as we might otherwise describe them, of one thousand six hundred, and that has progressively come down to seven hundred as presented at this enquiry. +Now it seemed to me that one thousand six hundred was initially as a result of survey work or shall we say investigation into the housing waiting list carried out by the York housing department, and I have to say that I have a certain respect for the York housing department, and they have a certain reasonable and good reputation within the region as a housing department, and so there seems to me that there is a gr a there is a potential to underestimate er the the affordable requirement that's been put to you, another point erm I'd just like perhaps to seek a little clarification from Mr Curtis, was was unfortunately I was looking something else up or my attention was diverted when he gave some figures for Ryedale and Selby, I think he said, and I'll happily stand corrected on this, that if you take away the York requirement figure from his ten thousand four hundred for Greater York, then the remainder he would apportion to Selby and Ryedale, so that Selby got four thousand two hundred, sorry, so that Ryedale got four thousand two hundred and Selby got one thousand seven hundred, erm that doesn't add up to ten thousand four hundred and I I I in total, and I I wondered where the rest was coming from, if I the point correctly. +My note indicates that what Mr Curtis said was that on a pro rata to their existing +Yes. +population levels i in the area of Greater York, an allocation would suggest that, he wasn't advocating that, it was just a pro rata ball park estimate, and he didn't purport to make it add up to the residual requirement okay ? +It's it's still one thousand two hundred dwellings short, and I don't know where there going to go. +Mr Curtis. +Thank you Chair. +David Curtis, York City Council. +There's a few issues I'd like to cover from a number of comments, I'll I'll +I'm sorry. +You hadn't finished? +No I hadn't. +Alright, +hold your horses then Mr Curtis. +to two points +You can pick that +Do you want those picked up? +No? +Yes, my other points about Ryedale anyway. +Er yes Chair, first of all the the last point first as it were, the erm Senior Inspector is quite correct what I was doing was allocating the nine seven figure that the County had proposed in H One, er that's why it doesn't add up add up to ten four, clearly I haven't done the calculations for ten four, but on the basis that erm there are seven hundred extra dwellings going into Ryedale, I think Mr Donson can work that one out. +Erm in connection with erm with reference to the York area housing strategy, again, there is a simple explanation, in that that that document was prepared before the current work on the City of York draft local plan, had progressed to a stage at which members had considered housing sites, and a number of sites in City Council ownership erm within the city, covering some four hundred dwellings have now been agreed by the City Council members as coming forward over the planned period for affordable housing, and in the case of two of those sites it actually requires sites to be taken out of use as public car parks, to bring them forward for development, and that is why the eleven hundred figure is actually reduced now to to a seven hundred. +Thank you. +Mr Donson, do you want to continue now? +Er yes, thank you very much. +Sorry, my my my other point is about about Ryedale, and and and its its and its its unde its relationship to Southern Ryedale, and erm Mr Smith said that erm as far as Ryedale Council are concerned they can't identify any more land within Southern Ryedale, well of course they would say that because was there position at the Southern Ryedale plan, but the fact of the matter is that there was a great dispute at the York greenbelt Southern Ryedale plan enquiry,revol resolving around the issue of what were the bits of the greenbelt which made up the historic character and thereby what were you left with that potentially could be developed, albeit it might be reserved as white land in the first place, but could potentially be developed, and a great deal of this land on the disputed side lay in Southern Ryedale, that in that in fact there was a view around the table not only sh not only shared by by the developers side, but erm that large parts of Osbaldwick and Huntingdon didn't fall within the definition of greenbelt as as set out by by the County Council in their N Y Two Two document, now that matter clearly has got to be something left to the Inspector and the Greenbelt Inquiry, but I think it's fair to point out that there is actually a difference of view, so it's not an absolute position, that you can't identify more land within within Southern Ryedale, and indeed, erm, not that I want to raise the Local Government Commission's head again, but of course the Local Government Commission is proposing that York be a unitary authority expanded, and once Yor , if York does become a unitary authority expanded then some of these areas will fall within their area, and they may have a different view than er the Ryedale current Ryedale district council does, and therefore I think it is a little unsafe to take just at pure se pure face value, that there is no more land within Southern Ryedale that could be developed. +I think we live with the local authority set up as we have it. +Mr Smith, erm, obviously you want to respond to that, but at the same time could I just press you towards your view and it's really relevant to the districts surrounding York, that we know you can live with the figures of provision as set out by the County Council in the alteration, how ar are you aware of the figures which are being proposed by other participants in the discussion for Greater York? +Yes. +You are? +Could you comment on whether you could live with an expanded requirement, er in South Ryedale? +And if you could, how would you see it being met? +I suspect you've already made that answered that that question. +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +Erm yea,i I'll come back on that a couple of points, erm regarding Mr Donson erm and the Southern Ryedale and York greenbelt local plan inquiry. +The site that was identified or potentially identified by by the house builders in York was a site which both the County Council and the District Council considered performed a number of greenbelt functions, I think that it would be accepted that in any development plan land should only be allocated if there were some degree of certainty that it would come forward for development within the plan period, the site that was identified, there had been no objections made to the Southern Ryedale local plan so therefore there were no indications that it would have come forward for development within that plan period anyway, had it been identified, had it been allocated. +Erm regarding the question of erm additional sites for housing, I erm if I can turn to erm Barton Willmore's G One Ten erm in paragraph +Can I, can I just pause you there? +Have you had a copy of, dare I say it, the tabulation which was produced by the panel, which summarized the various er submissions, and if I just read them to you. +The H B F figure for Greater York was twelve thousand three hundred, the Barton Willmore figure was twelve thousand seven hundred, but they did break it down on a district basis, and they gave five six five o to Ryedale, and then Michael Courcier, represented by Mr Sedgewick, a much more modest figure of ten thousand six hundred, for Greater York. +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +Erm, as I've said before, I have reservations about whether a much increased figure about above the County Council's er proposal could be accommodated within Ryedale District Council, and I if the figure above that is proposed I would suggest that the extra is accommodated within the new settlement, which I presume the ar argue answer you would have expected from Ryedale, erm Barton Willmore's figure is based on an assumption that they believe that within Ryedale there is a capacity to increase past building rates, I would refute that, erm the building rates in Southern Ryedale I would suggest were abnormally high, because of the development of Clifton Moor airfield, the North Western part of the Southern Ryedale district, sorry South Western part. +The land there is now nearly exhausted, and I would suggest that building rates in future years are in fact likely to decrease from what were abnormally high figures in the in the past ten year period. +Yep, er er yes. +L coming back to your other point I mean your saying you could not physically, or you would not wish to accommodate, let me put it that way, you would not wish to accommodate anything more than is now you're you're making provision for within the South Ryedale local plan +Ian Smith +can I just just pursue that you said said so the if you embarked on another scenario, and you said that the only way in which extra over, that beyond the figure proposed by the County Council, would be by way of a new settlement, I'm sort of transgressing my own ground rules here, I know that Ryedale has expressed support for the principle of a new settlement, are you saying that you would be looking for a new settlement, possibly in Ryedale? +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +We would be looking for a new settlement in the best location around Greater York. +I thought you'd say that. +Was that meaning yes or no? +Yes we support the principle, but the question about whether or not it should be in Ryedale district has not been erm answered by our members, and indeed it it we consider it should have wait, I mean this is answering something that'll be discussed at later within this issue, something that should not be er assessed until after the er +Well, let's put it on the shelf for the time being. +But I, we're going to have to discuss when we get to H Two just how you're going through the process of actually finding a site. +If, you know, finding a site for a new settlement is an acceptable way forward, but I, let's leave it on the shelf for now. +Mr Curtis. +Thank you, Chair. +Er David Curtis, York City Council. +I'd just like to comment on two or three issues that were raised earlier. +Clearly we do not wish to go through the same debate that we had at the greenbelt inquiry, erm but it is very relevant erm you'll see from our submissions to the panel that er quite clearly the City Council did not agree entirely with the proposed boundary of the greenbelt, the City Council did take the view that there were certain areas of land proposed to be included in the greenbelt er which did not fulfil a greenbelt function in the Council's view, and that was clearly was discussed at the greenbelt inquiry, it was not just one site, er we clearly were not not in our er responsibility to identify a specific site outside our district, but there were a number of areas er subject to those objections, not just from ourselves, but as Mr erm Donson has said er from various objectors. +The greenbelt boundary as I mentioned earlier as proposed by the County Council is very tightly drawn, excluding the sites which have been mentioned which our allocated, there is no land between the edge of the urban area and the proposed greenbelt boundary and that does seem to us, continues to seem to us er not an appropriate way forward. +In terms of the +I'm sorry David, I thought +In terms of the definition of er what is historic York I think again an issue we went over for some length of time at the greenbelt inquiry, I would draw your attention back to my earlier comments that York is basically a modern industrial city with a very precious historic core, that historic core er represents no more than actually five percent of the built up area, that something like eighty five percent of the city was built after eighteen hundred, the view that was expressed by the County in N Y Two, in terms of the definition of the greenbelt, the Greater York greenbelt and its purposes was not accepted by the City Council, we do not accept that all of the func elements of the York greenbelt contribute towards preserving the character of the historic city, we rely on the the fact that the two comments the Senior Inspector made at this, the the green wedges and historic core itself that establish the historic character of the city, there are many parts of the edge of York which could repli be replicated in many cities, historic or otherwise around the country and finally just coming back to the issue of scale of development erm the point I should have made earlier about the house builders figures for the city of York is that the house builders did suggest a figure of four thousand for the city, erm, I'm not aware on what basis that was made, but clearly my evidence would quite clearly indicate that I believe that could not be accommodated, certainly on any known sites within the cit current city boundary, thank you Chair. +Mr Sedgewick, can I just ask Mr Sedgewick to . +Sedgewick, Michael Courcier, and partners. +As you know from our submission, sir,n we've taken a more modest requirement for the Greater York area, and that's based to some extent upon what we think is is achievable there, we're not saying that erm the figure should not be higher, we're not saying that the H B F figure for instance should nu not be er put in there, but what we're saying is if that higher figure does go in because of the clear constraints on the provision of additional land the the higher figure may well mean that there's a need for two new settlements ra rather than just one. +The approach we've taken which is set set out in our our submission in section seven, we've we believe that maybe some nine hundred additional sites could be found, this is in addition to the existing allocations, er some nine hundred additional sites could be found within Greater York, by making changes to the boundary of the greenbelt, we you do it the greenbelt is too extensive in some parts, it can be rolled back without affecting the the purpose, erm Mr Donson's already already identified those areas, if that's the case, on our figures a settlement of fourteen hundred plus nine hundred on other sites is is is quite achievable. +In the longer term, if there i is a need for a for addi additional supply that can be be done by increasing the size of the segment or or using some of this additional land. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Davis. +This is very brief and solely for the record, Chairman, at the York greenbelt local plan inquiry the City Council made one objection, and one objection only, in respect of sites, and that was a site that straddled the York Selby boundary, that was there only expressed concern on sites specific objection, one site in the entire plan. +That's a matter of record. +Thank you. +Well I think, probably ought to make it clear of course that we won't have available to us the greenbelt local plan enquiry, so +Well certainly not in the period during which we're going to be discussing the various submissions, er un un at the E I P, now Mr Heselton, erm in a way your comments yesterday would probably be taken that Selby could cope, or would be prepared to cope, even with additional development, now you better sa tell me whether that's true or false, and I'm thinking particularly of that element of Greater Sel , of Selby which is in Greater York. +Er, yes that's that's true to a degree, Chairman. +Er Terry Heselton, Selby District. +Erm well in in the context of what I did say yesterday it'll come as no great surprise to anyone that like Ryedale we also accept the North Yorkshire County County figures, erm which in short we we find are based on reasonable assumptions and and and an appropriate methodology, compared to some of the more extreme interpretations and projections that have that have been put forward, if I can illustrate that point by reference to er potential building rates, that the highest figure that's been suggested is the one put forward by Mr Grigson, of Barton Willmore, I'm talking for the moment about Greater York generally, and I'll come onto the Selby aspect in a minute. +That's a suggested figure of twelve thousand seven hundred, which imply a building rate of eight hundred and forty six a year, in comparison with the adopted re er rate in the in the adopted plan of six o six and an actual building rate of seven o one, er my re calculation shows that that would be a thirty nine percent increase, over the adopted plan rate, and a twenty one percent increase over the actual rate. +In comparison the er the the smallest projection put forward by Mr Thomas, would actually result in a twenty one percent decrease in building rates over that approved in the adopted adopted plan, and a thirty two percent increase over the actual rate experienced since nineteen eighty one. +So I don't find either of those those two alternatives acc acceptable largely on the basis of of the arguments put put forward yesterday. +Mhm, yes. +So coming back more specifically to Selby, and taking er Mr Curtis's ball-park figure of of seventeen hundred, erm now already we've we've got approximately eight hundred and fifty committed in terms of a hundred and eighty con er completions, five hundred and sixty permissions including conversions, and a hundred and ten dwellings identified on a site at Elvington in in the Greater York study, and there's really not a great deal more flexibility, erm, because of the greenbelt constraint. +We fully support and endorse the deposit greenbelt boundaries, then I think it's inescapable that at at some point that is going to lead us to leapfrogging over the greenbelt boundary, at some stage during the the the plan period, there may well be sufficient erm commitment and identified sites to to mop up in in the short term, but by the end of of the plan period it's it's my belief that there will be a need to address this issue by bringing forward proposals for a new settlement, er which obviously Selby district er full fully supports. +And you would see that as an inevitable er way forward if you want to meet the housing provision in strategic terms in Greater York. +That's that's right, I mean I I I would suggest that we've arrived at that point now, and we're increasingly likely to do so, because as we've already heard York is very constrained, it's it's it's a relatively small, compact, historic city, the greenbelt boundaries are drawn fairly tightly, correctly in so in in my opinion, and there's really not much room for manoeuvre within with er in a existing settlements within the greenbelt. +Thank you. +Mr Donson. +Er Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation. +I just wanted to take up the point that's been raised again, and it keeps popping its its little head up from time to time, this issue of building rates. +I would say to you that the history of North Yorkshire County is that the house house builders have built, more or less the building rate of planning policy, whatever that has been, and that is a matter of fact, and if and if and if we are in a situation where the market is being fettered, as is the policy, and it's not a policy which we are seeking to go away from specifically, and it is inevitable that the house builders will build to whatever the policy building rate is, and comparisons of one building rate with another are simply telling you what's happened in the past, not what needs to happen in the future er in terms of meeting the housing requirement, and quite clearly in any area where you are introducing a new settlement, if indeed that's the conclusion we come to, er late later on, erm and I hope we do, but if we are introducing a new settlement you are bound to skew the building rates, and the more and more you reduce the area in which you consider what the building rate effect is the more and more that it actually gets skewed, er and erm you know, quite frankly, when the developers built a new estate at the end of my particular street the building rate went up alarmingly in my area, er and er you know, we can go on forever like that, I just think it's very misleading to just deal with the judgement of building rates. +Mr Thomas. +Thank you. +I had thought that builders built houses when they thought they thought they could sell them, I didn't realize it was part of some altruistic policy of complying with planning policy, still we learn everything every day, don't we? +Erm, sir, I want to address the point, if it's the right time about the level of housing provision the Greater York area in particular, erm that we've seen round the table here that we have special circumstances applying to York, and to its surrounding area. +Erm I won't dwell on York city centre and its historic core because you're all clearly aware of that, but it its setting was accepted at the greenbelt enquiry as being sufficiently important to warrant protection wider than just its physical, existing physical limits, erm the special protection was accorded also to the the special character rather was accorded also to the surrounding countryside, much of which is very attractive, and many of the typical Yorkshire small villages and hamlets that surround the area as well, er and we're clearly in a position in Greater York which is different from the position that arises in many other counties and many other districts within this county, we're in a position of grave shortage of suitable, developable land, we're in a position of high quality er character, and landscape, we're in a position where York, in particular , has extremely good transportation links, to the Leeds Bradford conurbation, where we discuss at length over the last two days there are policies for urban regeneration, subject to regional planning guidance in that area erm and we're in a position where quite clearly York is under pressure, a great deal of pressure from migrants, er because it's a it's an attractive location to live. +When you put all these factors together it concerns me that nobody has been advancing the case that as with other districts, some other districts in York, it would be appropriate, even more appropriate in my view, that the migration assumption should be discounted, there are in my view special reasons why this should be the case, special reasons over and above tho those that have been applied, to the other districts, this in my view would be that the Greater York housing provision for all those reasons I've just highlighted, should be reduced, should be reduced to the seventy five percent level, in other words that would be reducing it by between a thousand and twelve hundred and fifty houses, now I won't get on to the reason that the fact that that's one reason why there's no need for a new settlement, erm but it is a reason in its own right just to protect the character and the capacity requirements and the environmental sensitivities of the Greater York area. +A second factor which I'd like to raise, and please stop me, sir, if I'm not playing your ground rules here, is to get back to the original point made by Mr Davis, as to how this figure is going to be split between the districts, I think it's absolutely essential that this figure is split between the districts, and it may well be, if you decide, sir, to recommend in favour of the new settlement that you may have to leave that as a floating figure to go around the districts, at the moment it is not. +I would like to have more information from the County, or anyone else from the table for that matter, how this figure's going to be split, clearly P P G requires it to be split between district, and I'd like to see it split on that basis. +Thank you, sir. +Thank you, Mr Thomas. +Erm I I get the impression from what you're saying is that there is a distinct strategic view which should be taken about York and its role, which in a way would tend to limit the amount of housing development you should be putting in and around York. +Indeed, er and +And that's the way the authorities should be moving forward with their planning for the county. +I think that is the case, doubly so considering the discussion yesterday where we saw, that whether some of the districts liked it or not there is going to be development in excess of the projected figures in their relevant districts over the plan period. +There is slack elsewhere to effect a redistribution to the benefit of York and its Greater York area. +Probably an el well certainly an element which ought to be considered within the umbrella of the R P G but lets +Indeed. +wait and see what comes out of that. +Er I'm glad you raised the point about the distribution between the districts, and apart from your comment er I know Mr Davis is opposed to the idea, I haven't discerned a view either way from anyone else, whether they would like them or would not like them. +Well it seems to me, sir, that er the new settlement is becoming a bit of a dustbin which people are throwing their unspent allocations in, and then passing it around from district to district +Mhm. +and Selby are the people who are prepared to take it +I have +it maybe it maybe, sir, you should allocate all the housing to Selby, and we can all go home. +I'm I'm about to apologize to Mr Grigson, because I see from his submission he actually did distribute it by district within the er Greater York area, er yea, planning by Selby is not I think the right approach, but. +Mr Cunnane, sorry, Mr Grigson, you want to come in? +Well i I'm happy, I mean I was just going to make that point, sir, but I do have other points, but I'll wait . +Can we have Mr Cunnane, then Mr Sedgewick, and then we will have a coffee break. +Chairman. +Joe Cunnane. +My point is a very short one, I I simply need to put it on the record that it is erm our position that the panel should distribute the er ove York overspill, if I can call it that, as well, that the panel should address the issue of distribution, because our fear is th is th is is is the Selby problem, that Selby are embarked upon a clear strategy of er substantial growth, and we do not want to see er the Greater York overspill being unduly er dir funnelled channelled in that direction. +Thank you. +Mr Sedgewick. +Sedgewick, Michael Courcier and partners. +Our position in in the submission was that if there is not the the need to distribute York's own population around Greater York, then the argument for a separate Greater York figure disappears. +The the original purpose was to to deal with problems arising within the city of York. +If you feel from the discussion around the table that the u requirements of York have not been properly reflected in the the published H One figure er and that there is a need to distribute that population, and therefore there is going to be a Greater York figure. +The overlap with the districts needs to be eradicated, it's a black hole at the moment, every district can pass a its surplus on to another district, and indeed it would be the last district to prepare a district wide local plan that has to meet the residue of the Greater York requirement, it may maybe a good stimulus for the districts to get on with their local plans, but that's not an planning way. +What we would advocate, as indeed Mr Smith did earlier, is that there should be a a global figure for Greater York, and a reduction, in an appropriate reduction in the requirement for each district, and I believe that anticipating you might ask me what that is what that reduction should be, erm I I can say it must be related to the ca capacity, of that district within Greater York. +That proposition presupposes that if you make a reduction in the district figures, then you must have an idea what the district contribution towards the Greater York figure is, er and I find it difficult to see that you can have, if you have a new settlement, if you have a new settlement the C provision for the new settlement floating in this table, erm but can I just say before we adjourn for coffee, that I really would like to have some very firm answers to the questions which are posed under issue two, er and particularly about two D and that is specific guidance on the location of the new settlement. +Assuming you end up with a new settlement. +Can we break for coffee? +Yes. +Sir announced the the end of debate one, I certainly wasn't under the impression that it had finished. +Well, I've got, if you you just bear with me a moment, I still have one foot dragging in H one, but I thought we'd got to the stage where in order to try and clarify thinking on the matter we ought to progress onto H two, erm, that just let me reveal the thinking, erm that, before I do that can I just say in terms of mechanics those of you who have just joined us for the first time, could you turn your name boards round so I can see them, thank you, and when you want to come in the normal practice is to put your name board on end, so it will attract our attention. +But just let me come back to the the point I want to make, it is it evident to us from what was said yesterday collectively by the District Councils, that they could live with the figure of forty one thousand two hundred, as proposed by the County Council, without a new settlement. +There's a corollary to th that was is our impression, from the various views that were sp s spelt out around the table. +You'll have a chance to come back on whether we have got the wrong impression on that, I mean I recall Mr Heselton's quite clearly, but let me pursue that at a stage further if if we take that as our impression of what you have said collectively, and you are asked to make provision for nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, again collectively in the Greater York area, and I'm addressing this question to the districts, what provision would you make in your districts of your district figure in the Greater York area? +Mr Davis, you want to make a comment? +Well I was I've looked, Peter Davis, North Yorkshire, I've just glanced down the table at certainly at the er my Greater York district colleagues, and er certainly we er are rather surprised that er you have the impression that you have the impression that er erm we could do without the erm the new settlement, quite clearly erm erm certainly Harrogate, Selby, er and Ryedale, and the County Council, believe the the new settlement is absolutely essential, erm and I think that's erm erm certainly a matter of agreement between er us and those three districts, it's absolutely essential. +I think the point, I think the point we're making is that none of the districts yesterday told us that to meet their figure in H one they would need to have a new settlement, for example, I well remember Selby saying to us if we go above our H one figure we would need a new settlement, but they did not say to meet our H one figure we would need a new settlement. +Mr Heselton. +It's in that +Sorry. +context that we are ask now want to get clarification from the District Councils as to what proportion of there H one figure would be in the Greater York area. +Er may may I reply, please? +Mr Heselton first, yes. +Thank you. +Terry Heselton, Selby District. +Er it yes it it's true to tell, gone on record on several occasions saying in terms of environmental capacity there's the potential within Selby district to accommodate eleven and a half thousand dwellings, however I did later qualify those comments with reference to the emerging local plan, which is the main vehicle we've we've got for identifying potential development sites and the the qualification was that was that land is not necessarily available in in the right places, to enable us to make a a reasonable distribution for development in accordance with P P G advice, so that the question of a new settlement remains an extremely attractive option for Selby District, and as I mentioned this morning, in terms of whi we would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwelli whi we would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwellings short, in any case, erm +How much are you saying would be in the Greater York area in your district? +Well I haven't suggested a a figure, I made reference and I also referred to the fact that when you then discounted completions, identified sites, and existing measurements, you would be approximately eight hundred and fifty dwellings short. +Short of Mr short of Mr Curtis's figure ? +If if if I be yes, Mr Curtis's ball-park figure. +Mhm, so we'll we'll credit you with minus eight fifty, shall we? +This probably being the best +Er as as a basic starting point yes. +Yes. +Mr Allanby. +Er David Allanby, Harrogate Borough Council. +Erm first of all Chairman I would confirm that it is our view that with a provision of six thousand five hundred for Harrogate district, we don't think we'd be looking at a new settlement to serve our needs, erm, having said that, we support the Greater York strategy, and we we certainly the level of provision erm for Greater York as proposed by the County Council, er but leaving aside for one moment the issue of a new settlement, it is our view that we'll be able to accommodate the level of growth that I think is anticipated in our district, erm, within the figures, and I'm referring specifically to N Y one, and the table on the last page where there's an indication there of the sort of of er housing numbers that would would have to be accommodated within Harrogate district, and and our part of Greater York is essentially a rural character consisting of a a number of small villages, so there there we have er a total figure of two hundred dwellings to be provided within our part of Greater York, that basically represents erm existing commitments and a a yield from small sites in the future, perhaps conversions, and we'r we're quite happy with that. +I think our view is that if that provision was to be any greater, then we would have significant difficulty in accommodating that provision within our part of Greater York, primarily for for greenbelt considerations, not reasons, erm any additional provision would require a rolling back of the greenbelt, er significant provision would have two implications, erm either it would mean peripheral expansion er of York into the greenbelt around York and into our district, we feel that would adversely affect the special character of York, lead to outward sprawl of the York urban area, encroachment into open countryside, and coalescence of the urban area with the villages in our district, er and we we wouldn't want to support that. +The other option would be expanding the villages themselves, and we find that that would be equally harmful, so we'd be opposed to any significant additional development in our district over and above that that's that's been assumed in that table. +Mhm. +If I if m I summarize that, I know Harrogate have supported the principle of a new settlement within the Greater York figure, but you hadn't anticipated that it would bite on your district, if I can use that word. +We er haven't er certainly been through or down the road of looking at whether there are sites within our district that that could accommodate that, that exercise is still to be done. +But if I put it another way, you could meet your anticipated contribution to the Greater York figure as spelt out in the structure plan? +That's right, sir. +Ninety seven hundred. +Thank you. +Mr Jewitt. +Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District. +Michael Jewitt, Hambledon District Council. +Erm, before we leave item one D, sir, there are two things that Hambledon would like to say both on the q questions that the Chairman asked, capacity, and also on the principal of breaking down the Greater York figure i into the constituent districts, erm, the first point, on capacity, erm, we feel that we have a very limited capacity, er to accommodate development needs advising in Greater York, you'll see from our statement that we have just two settlements an , sorry three settlements in two parishes er within the defined Greater York area, Shipton, Beningborough, and Overton. +Two of these settlements have just ten and eleven dwellings respectively, erm Shipton is the only settlement of any consequence erm being two hundred and er twenty dwellings. +Now, within that overall context it it really would be meaningless to identify a contribution for Hambledon in terms of Greater York, as this erm figures are so are so small. +The second point being that erm if a figure was to be identified for Greater York, we'd feel that this would er unduly interfere with our duties and responsibilities as a District Council to allocate land in our district, cos in effect what it would do is direct us to making a housing allocation in one particular settlement, Shipton, we feel that's our responsibility not the County Council. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Isn't +Go on, go on. +Isn't there an argument, and perhaps I am st getting now onto two, matter two, that says from Hambledon's point of view, what has just been said is compelling, is a compelling argument in favour of identifying where the new settlement should go, because that will, at the same time, identify where it should not go? +Ah erm well, Chairman, I I think that this is something that's going to cut, as far as Hambledon's got concerns, is going to come up in the erm in the next debate, certainly, erm, the erm, the issue of erm whether policy should be expressed in terms of principle and criteria, or erm area and a district as being a dilemma erm to Hambledon, erm, it feels it's erm erm not being able to support the policy as defined, because ultimately the Council would object to a new settlement in Hambledon. +Erm, and therefore it feels it would be disingenuous of it to support the principle at this stage, it may well lead to a situation where were encouraging the County to go down a particular route, but only to get to the very end of it for us to pull the rug from beneath the County's feet. +Mm. +Yes, erm we are aware of the the view that the District Council have expressed, about the new settlement, that's perfectly clear. +But if I just turn your attention to the figures that are postulated in the County Council's N Y one, the tabulation in paragraph twenty on the last page, it's attributed forty dwellings due in Hambledon, more or less. +My understanding of the situation in Hambledon is that there are, we're talking only small figures I realize, there are twenty commitments currently, within that area, erm clearly there are going to be some unidentified sites come forward erm, I don't wish to er critical of that figure, I would accept the figure. +Sorry? +I would accept that figure and +Thank you. +Yes. +Mr Smith, Ryedale. +Chairman. +Ian Smith Ryedale District. +I've already said this morning that the District Council does not consider that it can accommodate any further dwellings within the Southern Ryedale area without adversely affecting the character of the settlements that are already there, or compromising greenbelt objectives, erm, so therefore to meet the Greater York total, the District Council considers it essential that there is a new settlement to take that amount of housing that cannot be accommodated within the Southern Ryedale area. +What figure can you accommodate in South Ryedale? +Part of. +Sorry, in Rye in the Ryedale part of the Greater York. +If you look at table, at the County Council's M +Yes. +Y one, erm +Is that the one you can live with? +We could live with that figure, and indeed our local plan is based on on that sort of a figure, being accommodated within that area. +And the York figure we take as three thousand three hundred, Mr Curtis. +Dave Curtis, York City Council. +Yes, sir. +And ou and going back to Mr Heselton, he has said i , I've got a negative factor for him at the moment in terms of minus eight fifty, but let let me let me take the figure which is actually quoted in the County Council's table of nine fifty dwellings. +Is it nine fifty, or is it something slightly higher, or something less? +Er, Terry Heselton, Selby District. +Erm, I believe the figure of nine fifty also includes a an allowance for windfalls windfalls. +Mr Heselton, I understood you said when we started this debate that you were eight hundred and fifty short, or thereabouts, of Mr Curtis's pro-rata figure, which was four thousand two hundred. +Did I misunderstand ? +No, er Mr Curtis's er hypothetical figure +Yes. +of seventeen hundred. +Mm. +I beg your pardon? +Yes. +Which takes you back to nine fifty. +Sorry, eight fifty. +Eight fifty, more +Yes. +or less. +Yes. +Hypothetical. +So in progressing through there, and I'm sorry we haven't done it this way, we end up in terms of the County Council figure of nine seven hundred for Greater York, possible er provision from, collectively from the districts of about fourteen hundred, fifteen hundred short. +Is my arithmetic correct? +Yes. +Thank you. +Mr Grantham. +Erm +And then Mr Thompson. +Er I just want wanted to to pick up on your your opening remarks, sir, after coffee, that that the impression you had was that the the the districts, erm, could live with a that the County Council figures. +Erm with without a new settlement erm that that was indeed the the impression that erm I was left with as well, and what what we've sought to do in in the evidence that we've we've put before you is to take the nine seven, nine thousand seven hundred figure in Greater York, and and er s based on the data supplied by the County Council to to demonstrate that that actually when one looks at outstanding commitments erm with planning permission, identified the sites er without planning permission, those those that are allocated in local plans, making suitable allowances for small sites erm windfall sites and conversion, erm the the residual figure that is left in Greater York, which I calculate to be eight thousand six hundred and thirty seven, once one has taken away completions, which I think is an agreed figure between nineteen ninety one and nineteen ninety three of one thousand and sixty three, that erm, those existing commitments, and the sites likely to come forward,ma virtually match the figure for the outstanding housing requirement, so so one is left with a view that erm from from the data that's put in front of us that there isn't a residue of that size to to accommodate, although I accept that there may well be a residue of some sort, erm and it seems to me that the established Greater York erm framework, er is is the process by which that is distributed around the counties along the lines that the discussion's proceeded this morning. +In that context I think it would be helpful to us erm if we could have submitted to us a version of the table originally submitted by the H B F relating to commitments. +Relating solely to the Greater York area. +If you remember at the end of yesterday, Mr Donson will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong, he fige finished up, we started the day with a total guaranteed minimum of about thirty three and a half thousand, we got that up by arithmetic to thirty four point nine thousand, and I think we finished up at around thirty six thousand at the end of the day. +I think it would be very helpful to the panel to know what proportion of that thirty six thousand is within the district, within the Greater York area, don't ask for that to be done now, because it may well involve some difficult arithmetic, perhaps it's tonight's homework. +Is that possible Mr Donson? +Roy Donson, House Builders' Federation, it's not possible by me, no, but +Right. +I'll I'll leave it to the +Your sources your sources of supply are on the other side of the room. +Indeed they are, yes. +Thank you. +Mr Thomas. +Yes, thank you, sir. +I think that the districts there possibly given the exception of Selby have taken a rather cautious approach as to what they anticipate being built in their areas within the Greater York area itself er over the next thirteen years. +Er a similar cautious approach which none of them took yesterday when on examination it was found that there was more potential there than before, erm so to help with the figures I have found very helpful erm appendix eight to the er York City Council erm statement, I think it appears in both of their statements appendix eight Greater York housing provision sorry, could could I also direct you at the same time to the County Council's N Y five appendix three now the, the two make interesting comparisons because they both start of with the same H one proposal of nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, and I'll remind you there, sir, that only five thousand seven hundred of those are required by the existing population, four thousand of those are for migrants, and the two schedules go of in slightly different directions under the heading of completions, and the reason for that, sir, is that the the Greater York, the er County Council's figures, as you can see were computed in October nineteen ninety two when only seven hundred dwellings had been completed, yet six months later, under item C for the Greater York er housing provision figure, York Ci York City Council figures, the completions were one thousand and sixty three. +Erm, I'll not go through the whole of this table sir, but I do want you to look at the next column, outstanding planning permissions. +In October nineteen ninety two the outstanding planning permissions were three thousand three hundred and fifty, in April nineteen ninety three, there were three thousand four hundred and seventy three. +In fact sir, the County Council's figures produced in another appendix, can't lay my hands on it at the moment, had put this figure in as three thousand six hundred and fifty, but the nub of those two things are, that over that six month period, we're not only seeing more houses built but we have more consented, and that hasn't affected the residue that appears in the rest of these schedules. +Now the County Councils and the City Council's assessment of the capacity of the Greater York study sites are roughly the same, you can see, sir, that as things have moved forward in only a six month period, the City Council calculate there's a residual requirement of nine hundred and forty seven dwellings, only twenty five percent of the migration assumption, none hundred and forty seven dwellings left, compared to the County Council's outdated information which suggested it's one thousand three hundred and thirty five. +Both of those figures, sir, exclude any windfalls whatsoever over the next thirteen years, now if that is a justification for a new settlement, I'm a disbeliever. +It clearly is not the case, that, we have heard from the city this morning, and in the city alone windfalls have been progressing at the rate of eighty per annum, if it was only half that rate over the next thirteen years we would see five hundred more houses, and that excludes windfalls from the rest of the Greater York area, excluding the city of York. +It is quite clear, sir, that on the existing allocations, thirteen years to go, that the figure of nine thousand seven hundred dwellings, if you want to stick by that figure, my view it should be lower because it has too much an assumption for migration in a constrained area, if you want to stick by that figure, the nine thousand seven hundred will be reached without a new settlement, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. +Now, a new settlement option is a last ditch option, we're far from being the last ditch here, we're hardly the first ditch. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Grigson. +Thank you, sir. +Steven Grigson, Barton Willmore. +I will want to come back on the same point that's just been made, but if before I get to that there are some other points that I think I should make in explanation of the lead we have given, if I may call it that, in putting forward the distribution of the Greater York total. +I think it's necessary to to set the scene for that to say that in fact as between the County Council and Barton Willmore there's very little difference in what we see are the requirements for the ring around the city, we both have a figure of of six thousand and something quite small. +The difference between our figures for Greater York and the County Council's figures for Greater York arise almost entirely within York City, and bi I think been established earlier this morning that some overspill, albeit the size maybe in dispute, is necessary from the city into the ring. +Erm I think it's also now pretty much common ground that the capacity of York city is around three thousand three hundred, but I think in in in taking an view on that, and in taking any view o on future windfalls, it is necessary for the panel to keep in mind that historically in the nineteen eighties windfalls were coming through at a time when it was not a adopted local plan for the city of York, so to some extent anything by definition of a substantial size was likely to be a windfall, erm, but also more to the point than that definitional point, I would expect to see, and I think what Mr Curtis has said earlier on that the local plan is likely to tighten up on criteria for release of sites, both small and large, he referred to the shortage of open space, and I would expect to see a policy change in short, a policy climate change, within the city of York that would constrain past historical rates of windfall release. +So that I think the situation affecting the Greater York area is that there wis there is a requirement to accommodate within the ring part of the needs of the city, and on our best estimate that er I apologize for the word overspill, but it it is descriptive, is of the order of three thousand three hundred dwellings to be accommodated in the ring which after the needs of York. +I don't intend to discuss the housing, whether seven hundred acres, sorry seven l land for seven hundred houses is owned by the City of York, that's not part of our case one way or the other, but we have offered you a distribution of the Greater York provision figure between the districts, because from Barton Willmore's very extensive experience of participation in local plan work up and down the country, I think we share the view that er City of York have, that Ryedale have, my colleagues to the left and right on this side of the table have, that there does need to be a distribution, otherwise there will be at best confusion as to whether local plans comply with the structure plan, and at worst a game of of pass the parcel and everybody will be conforming, but nobody will actually be possibly meeting the figures, and that is the situation that I don't think anybody would wish to see as a result of er the outcome of of alteration number three, I mean I don't know how the County Council would would really be able to to say whether they thought a local plan conformed to the structure plan, without knowing what that distribution was, perhaps in some bottom draw manner which is not now the approved way of going about these things, so that I think there does need to be a distribution for the proper planning of York, and before coming on to our to explain our figures a little bit, I should also say, perhaps in in response to remarks Mr Thomas made earlier on about the general character of the York area and the need to to protect that, that that course is precisely what the greenbelt is for, and what it does, it isn't necessary to extend that concept across the whole of the vale of York, and therefore to seek to er discount migration outside the greenbelt. +That is what the greenbelt is actually there for, and if you have it there for that purpose, as I said yesterday, the necessary corollary is that you have additional provision beyond it, and I can't resist to offer Mr Wincup some support, I'm sure one piece of evidence that he gave you about the letter from the Parish Council, he's probably already replied to that Parish Council saying, as you're in the York greenbelt have no fear, all the Selby needs will pass straight across your heads and land somewhere else. +The erm point about are distribution within Greater York is that we have attempted to look at this in what I think is a a rational and realistic manner, we have looked, and you'll see this from our supplementary paper, I apologize for its lateness, but I think it's benefited from the additional thought that could be given to it, we have looked both backwards, at the present day, and forwards, we've looked backwards at past build rates, we've looked at the present day position in the sense of the population shares within Greater York, and we've looked forwards in terms of the commitment figures that are given in the N Y one paper that we've just been looking at, and taking all those things into account, and adding in what we see as the right location for a new settlement, namely Selby district, we come to the figures that are in our supplementary paper, and there is clearly a great deal of common ground between the evidence you get from looking either at past building rates or population shares, as now, or future commitments which all point towards a broadly similar distribution, we say, with the addition of a new feature namely the new settlement, so that I commend those figures to you as somebody who's actually dared to put their toe, or maybe their whole body into the water, and given you not only some numbers, but also a basis by which if you should er have a different Greater York figure in mind, a basis on which that could be rationally er approached, I would not certainly defend to the last ditch the need to put a figure of fifty dwellings into the structure plan for the Hambledon part of Greater York, there may be a cut off point beyond which you don't go, but certainly for Ryedale and Selby, with very substantial numbers there is a need to indicate what the appropriate division should be, and you could not for instance indicate what the er Ryedale non Greater York figure was, without someone telling us the, as the Chairman rightly said, having an idea of what the Ryedale Greater York figure should be, so it isn't really I think feasible to have district figures for non Greater York, and one Greater York figure, that doesn't er get away from the issue, and nor does it solve the potential for confusion. +My final point, is that, and we have had it raised this morning, erm from er I think it was consultants on behalf of the C P R E that there was sufficient capacity within Greater York, and they referred to a table in their and their submission. +I had a close look at that table, obviously a matter of some interest and that's the reason I return to this, as I read the table, there is a very substantial amount of double counting within it, for this reason, that all outstanding er planning permissions are included once, and there are then separate categories of allowance for all types of sites, namely large windfalls, conversions, small sites, and allocated sites, those are all put in, er or most of them are put in at thirteen years worth, that being the remainder of the plan period to two thousand and six, it will not have escaped you that if you include thirteen years worth all the existing commissions are part of that thirteen years, and so simplest approach to correct that table would simply to discount the outstanding commitments, because they're all counted again as part of the thirteen years, I do have a secondary point that the allowance for conversions is very much higher than what seems to be happening, and in what is in the tables that er Mr Thomas drew it to your attention from the York City er appendix eight, so that er on on two counts, but mainly the double counting one there is a great deal of er erm optimism, if I can call it that, in that table. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Curtis. +Thank you Chair. +David Curtis, York City Council. +Er I merely want to comment on the erm apparent misunderstanding on my comments on windfalls earlier on, erm it has been suggested that we we're tightening down on windfalls, was the quote actually used, erm, there is no intention in the local plan to er ignore the er windfalls, to actually deal with them in a different way than had happened in the past, clearly if sites come forward which are windfalls which are suitable in environmental terms then the City Council will give, as P B G one requires, the appropriate consideration to those applications, what I was merely saying this morning was the the likelihood of such windfalls coming forward, and the scale was clearly going to be substantially less than had occurred in the past, and the the figure of eighty a eighty a year, which was for a five year period, which was quoted to me, erm clearly would not be representative of my expectation of the future. +Thank you. +Er Mr Spittle. +Malcolm Spittle, County Council. +Erm I was going to pick up on a number of points that have been raised by previous speakers, but erm Mr Grigson and Mr Curtis seem to have er dealt with a few of those, erm just with regard to the the table put in by C P R E, with their figures, I would just agree with Mr Cur er Mr Grigson that there is a very substantial degree of double counting in those figures, there is also a very substantial degree of over provision in the allowance for for conversions, er past conversion rates in Greater York have averaged something like twenty nine dwellings per year, over a fifteen year period your talking about four hundred and thirty five dwellings, which is the figure that both York City Council and ourselves have have made allowance for for conversions, that compares with a figure of a thousand dwellings referred to by the C P R E and I see no foundation for that figure, erm, as I say Mr Curtis already picked up on the point about windfalls rates by Mr Thomas, erm just turning to the difference between the tables er submitted by the County Council and York City Council on the the residue within the er Greater York area, I would accept the figure, the figures put in the tables by Mr er by Mr Curtis, I think that they have picked up the the more recent planning permissions and the completions information, and they also take on board there more recent work on erm development within the city, and I I accept that table. +Thank you. +Mr Smith. +Ian Smith, Ryedale District. +I'd like to comment on Mr Grigson's table, in particular the figure proposed for Ryedale, er his figure is based on the assumption that because Selby gets the new settlement it therefore gets a corresponding reduction in house building elsewhere in the Greater York portion of Selby. +The development strategy adopted in the Greater York study never envisaged that the settlement, or the district that got the new settlement would therefore get a corresponding reduction in the amount of land it had to provide to meet the needs of the Greater York area, the strategy we use to identify sites within the Greater York area that could be developed without compromising greenbelt objectives, and that the new settlement would be added on outside that area without a reduction in that that figure. +Mhm. +Mr Cunnane. +Er Joe Cunnane,Sa representing Sam Smith's Brewery Tadcaster. +Just like to make a comment on Mr Grigson's submission erm points on erm the Greater York figure. +First of all I should point out that the Nor the County Council er figure of none thousand seven hundred is actually a figure for local needs plus one hundred percent migration, and if you follow Mr Thomas's figures that leaves a residual requirement of nine hundred and forty seven dwellings without any windfalls over the next thirteen years, which is quite inconceivable, so in order to establish his point on the need for the new settlement on tha on on his figures, the Bar Mr Grigson of Barton Willmore has to up the figure for Greater York to twelve thousand seven hundred, as set out in his erm paper. +The s the point I would make is that first of all I don't accept that twelve thousand seven hundred is er a tenable figure but that, probably the more important point is that there has to be a policy response, and a policy response to this issue demands that there is at least some response to the mi to the level of migration er you know my my my view has been put forward very clearly about that, but I would simply make make the point for the record that even accepting one hundred percent migration, there is no statistical case for a new settlement. +Thank you. +Mr Sedgewick. +Sedgewick, Michael Courcier and Partners. +The may maybe I just comment on that that last that last point, which as I understand it it the the justification for a new settlement is brought about solely by increasing the requirement for Greater York to twelve thousand seven hundred, going through those figures there seems to me, for instance, for both Ryedale and Selby to be more provision than could be met in a single settlement, I I think the the figures put forward by Barton Willmore are more than can be met in existing allocations and a single new settlement of a reasonable size. +So I I think the new settlement remains justified even with the significantly lower figure for Greater York. +Mhm. +Thank you. +I noted the point, erm I think to some extent we probably can now move forward to H two, in in a proper sense, but I'll ask Mr Davis er A if he wishes to give some reaction to the last few comments er and then your lead in to H two. +Mr Grigson said he really . +I assume Mr Grigson, as he hasn't raised his board has said all he wants to say at this stage on the points that have been made. +In relation to factor . +Do you want anything else on matter one, Mr Grigson. +Mr Grigson, for Barton Willmore. +I don't feel any need to respond on on Ryedale o or to Michael Courcier. +There was one little bit of leftover, as you've given me an opportunity before I depart, and that was that erm we did discuss earlier today, under this heading the possibilities of erm their being sites on the inner edge or between the built up area, or there might become sites between the built up area and the inner edge of the greenbelt, I think the implication was they may be in Ryedale. +My understanding is that A those don't exist at present within the deposit plan, but if they did at some future date, for any reason, that their function would be to be used after two thousand and six to sustain the permanence of the greenbelt. +Thank you very much. +Mr Davis. +Yes. +I think just two points. +Er erm we think the nine thousand seven hundred dwellings based on one hundred percent migration for the Greater York area is the appropriate strategic approach erm for the Greater York area, the County Council does not see the need for any policy intervention in terms of migration, in respect of Greater York in the way it feels is necessary in respect of er of four other districts. +Erm on a general point about the ability to find extra land, erm in and around the urban area erm of York, particularly erm on the inner edge er of the greenbelt. +Having been through the six months of the greenbelt local plan enquiry, I can say quite clearly to this er examination in public, that I doubt whether there is the land available erm er around the inner edge erm erm to increase the level of of housing development in and around the city without seriously prejudicing greenbelt objectives. +Thank you. +Now, before you make your opening statement in the context of H two we have some extra papers to distribute. +Er, Mr Donson leaving us? +Yes. +Mr Grigson leaving us. +They both are . +It would be appropriate to say something +Yes. +to them. +Is Donson coming back? +Is Grigson coming back? +Grigson? +I do I don't know. +I don't have handy +Don Donson isn't yet. +Erm. +Just a minute. +Mr Grigson, are you retiring altogether from the fray? +Yes I am, yes, sir. +Thank you very much for your contribution. +Thank you. +Ah, Mr Brighton. +Mhm. +No, Mr Mr Donson's with us all this week. +We've put the slightly put the cat among the pigeons. +Pardon? +Haven't we put the cat among the pigeons? +Yes, indeed. +It was all that capacity elsewhere. +I know.. +I mean that's more capacity than we need to . +Tosh. +. +Do your +. +do your black do your white dots drop into the black hole? +. +. +we have a . +Right. +It's very difficult to roll A and B together. +. +Mhm? +I wouldn't have said. +No? +Alright. +I know what you . +Well what's one new settlement to +No, two is two is a very important. +Yes, I know that. +a copy, a copy of these yet, Which we've nearly . +Alright. +Thank you. +Ah. +Are you ready to go tell me tell me when. +Alright okay. +. +No. +Alright. +Thanks. +So can we now move in the formal sense to looking at the next issue for discussion, which covers policy H two, the Greater York new settlement, and the first part of the issue which we shall address is, does the proposed Greater York new settlement represent an appropriate and justified policy response to the assessed development land requirements of the Greater York area, and I'll ask Mr Davis to make his introductory statement. +Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council. +Thank you Chairman. +I'll go straight into er item two A I think the first thing the County Council would would wish to say this erm examination is that er today we are really seeing the culmination of I suspect er ten year work erm in Greater York by the Greater York authority and a particularly intensive period of work over the last five years, er by the Greater York authorities, the paper that I put round N Y five the matter two A really addresses the history and why we reached the conclusions corporately that we have and as all as we've already indicated erm progress was able to be made when the Secretary of State included a Greater York er dimension erm into the er into the structure plan in a the first alteration, erm and that enabled a body of work to be undertaken by the Greater York authority, and I think I ought to say at this point that the Greater York authority comprises of the County Council er and five District Councils, and there you have six different councils, all with an interest in the future of Greater York, sitting down together, trying to sort out the way in which the future of Greater York erm ought ought to be developed, and the means they did it did that of course was through the Greater York study, which began in nineteen eighty eight and started off immediately with a study of forty, fifty development, potential development sites, erm in and around er er Greater York which produced a report, as I said in on page three of the of N Y five, around about April nineteen eighty nine, the conclusions of which were quite clearly unacceptable to erm members of the Greater York authority, because they saw quite clearly, and they were supported by the public in this, that to continue peripheral development, which had been the pattern of development in the Greater York area, erm certainly through the sixties and seventies er was unacceptable in terms of its impact on settlements, and particularly er its impact erm on erm erm the York greenbelt which still at that stage erm had yet to be made statutory, and that was again one of the main stimuli to making progress, the need to s formally define er the York greenbelt. +The Greater York authorities therefore looked for a widening of the options available, er, in Greater York, and those that have seen the Greater York study, and it is a document that we've put in to the examination will see that there was a fundamental full scale wide ranging er assessment er of all the options er open er within the er Greater York er area and they are er set out erm in pages three er and four of N Y five. +The public consultation exercise that was part of that erm Greater York study, and quite clearly the Greater York study was not a statutory plan, it was an informal plan, but it was the only way really that progress could be made in the absence erm of adopted local plans in Greater York, it was essential that that document was pursued to give a framework for the preparation of district local plans er and the greenbelt local plan, and the resolution that followed the consultation and the long body of work, and I'll read it out, was that the development strategy for Greater York from ninety six to two thousand and six should be based on agreed sites within and on the periphery of the built up area, and that the residual requirement be met for the development of a new settlement or settlements located beyond the outer boundary erm of the greenbelt, a quite clearly there's a major policy implication there that a new settlement was not acceptable within the greenbelt but would have to be er outside the outer boundary of the greenbelt, and the public consultation on that er study er attracted widespread support for a new settlement strategy in Greater York, all six authorities agreed that that was the direction er that had to be taken, it also had another benefit in that it enabled work on the York greenbelt local plan erm to proceed and that has now been taken forward to the stage where the enquiry terminated in May, it's a joint enquiry in the greenbelt local plan enquiry, with a Southern Ryedale local plan enquiry in April ninety three, and we would hope that the inspectors report on that six month enquiry, when he considered all the objections to the er greenbelt proposals of the County Council, largely supported by the er District Council will be available er in the near future. +The County Council also accepted as part of this oral approach that there was a need for an alteration to the structure plan, because the approved structure plan did not make provision for a new settlement as an element of approved North Yorkshire strategic policy, and we've progressed that erm alteration through to the examination er in public er today. +So the current position is that there's been substantial progress er in Greater York, and I think its testimony to the willingness of the Greater York authorities to work together there that there's been such a level of agreement I think probably er never before achieved in the Greater York area as to the direction that Greater York erm er should take. +We think that on balance we have er the majority of the support of the public at large within Greater York, that this is the strategic er approach that is necessary for Greater York, it's necessary to protect the greenbelt and it's necessary to protect communities and villages er in and around erm Greater York. +Could I also say one thing finally, and that is the fact that we've tried to run together the alteration and the greenbelt local plan as concurrently er as possible, er it would appear that the timing erm is coming together reasonably satisfactorily erm in that we hope that the report from the greenbelt local plan enquiry, is not to er far distant, erm and we would expect, sir, that you will be reporting on the proceedings at this examination in public er in the not to distant future, well I think I did give an undertaking at the greenbelt local plan enquiry that the County Council, because the two are er interrelated to a degree, that I would expect the County Council would not wish to pursue either report er until er the other er is available, and that seems to the County Council to be entirely sensible, that the two reports, the structure plan alteration and the greenbelt local plan enquiry, erm should be looked at together. +There we are, sir, that's erm er er a very brief history erm of erm er of the new settlement strategy, erm it's one clear that the County Council thinks is the appropriate way erm er for the Greater York area er to proceed. +Thank you. +Thank you. +I noted, and we've already had the flavour of it, in to some respect today, that initially you had almost unanimity of support from the District Councils er York City have changed their view erm and equally Hambledon are very luke warm, if I put it no more than that, er on the idea of a new settlement in the sense that they probably support the principle of the new settlement, but not in Hambledon. +But could you comment, and no doubt Mr Curtis will also want to amplify why York er seem to have cooled on the idea. +There is a there is reference in your paper to that. +Yes. +Peter Davis, North Yorkshire County Council. +I mean York City Council will obviously er Mr Curtis will obviously give his views on the situation, erm the particular issue that seems to have changed the mind of York City Council is the reference in P P G thirteen, transport to sizes of new settlement not being erm er desirable in in in transport terms, small scale resettlements. +Now there is no definition of what's small erm erm is erm in er P P G er thirteen and perhaps Mr Curtis could help us in due course erm on an assumption that the new settlement was somewhat larger that th what the County Council is proposing, whether that would erm change the view of York City Council, I I think there is another factor again I could be corrected on this by Mr Curtis and this tended to come out in the greenbelt local plan enquiry, er and that York City Council seem progressively to place more importance on peripheral development than on the new settlement strategy +Mhm. +erm that is my general feeling for erm erm erm the position, York's emerging views erm at the greenbelt local plan enquiry erm weren't shared by the districts er which surround the city, or by the County Council. +Strictly on P P G two terms er because of the effect er on the greenbelt, but I wouldn't want to go any further than that, that's my impression, Mr Curtis will undoubtably correct me if I'm wrong. +Yes, I mean I noticed from the draft P P G thirteen that they do not define small. +How small is small? +Mr Curtis, do you want to +Yes, thank you, Chair. +come back on that? +David Curtis, York City Council. +Erm, clearly their is a a long history of cooperation between the authorities on Greater York, and er I think it is important to explain the development of thinking on that, and the reasons why the City Council has, I would say progressively, er reduced its er the warmth of its enthusiasm to such a state that it's actually become extremely cold now. +The original dispersed development strategy ended up with a shortfall, something like two thousand dwellings, compared to the sites which had been agreed between the various authorities at the time, it's also worth noting that that was based on a dwelling target of nine thousand one hundred for Greater York, I think that's correct, over the period since actual sites which have been agreed between the authorities since then have clearly increased, so as you've seen in my appendix eight the residual requirement has now been reduced to a a level of nine hundred and forty seven. +The eighty nine strategy was actually supported by four of the authorities including the County Council, but clearly, and I fully appreciate why that decision was made two districts particularly, Ryedale and Selby, felt unable to support the strategy. +The City Council, faced with the view that er there was two thousand shortfall in dwellings, that clearly two of our most important neighbours in terms of their land area were unhappy with that proposal, agreed to er proceed to pursue the issue of the new settlement. +In that interim period of that work the draft P P G three came out, and made it quite clear that the new settlement would have to lie without beyond the outer edge of the greenbelt, and that was a fur a further consideration. +Since that time clearly we've also had a series of further er indications development government guidance on the issue, new P P G one, three, and twelve all produced in March ninety two, which made it quite clear the environmental considerations were to be given greater attention in development plans. +P P G three, the revised P P G three when it came out clearly, in my opinion changes the emphasis from the draft P P G three from the draft P P G three, paragraphs thirty two and thirty three which I would emphasize should to be read together, clearly indicates that new settlements are as someone said this morning, sorry, earlier in the discussion today, an issue of last resort. +This has further emphasized to ourselves with, I accept our reading of the draft of P P G thirteen, and also more work we've been doing on land in the city, and on the potential traffic implications in particular of further growth outside the ring road. +All of those factors lead the City Council to the view that the current level of residual given emerging government advice, the City Council could no longer support the idea of a new settlement of something like fourteen hundred dwellings set in the countryside beyond the outer edge of the York greenbelt. +It's interesting to note that actually now we've since made that decision the residual has as I've said come down to nine four seven, so if we do have a new settlement of fourteen hundred we're already ending up with a a higher level of proposed development for Greater York now, the nine seven would obviously be exceeded if we had a fourteen hundred new settlement within Greater York. +The further out from York the new settlement goes the less self contained it will be, the more the tendency will be for travel into the city, which is the main service centre to be car based. +The belief of the City Council is that, notwithstanding there are clearly difficult traffic problems in the city, there is more opportunity to encourage people to use other more environmentally friendly modes of travel by locating development in and on the edge of the main urban area, a view that's supported by P P G thirteen and the research document onto planning, transport and planning emis planning and transport emissions on which it was based. +It's for those reasons, sir, that the City Council feels that it can no longer support the proposed proposals for new settlement, just to come to your question about the issue of scale, I am not able to define what er small is in P P G three, it's obviously been left deliberately vague, but I would draw your attention to the Ucwetec T P A study I've just referred to which makes it quite clear in their terms that to be self contained in transport terms the nearest any settlement ne really needs to be in excess of twenty thousand people. +Now I could not countenance, and I'm sure none of the authorities around us could countenance a new settlement that scale in Greater York. +If you compare a fourteen hundred new settlement, three thousand people with the new settlements around York, as you've seen in our papers, and some of the papers circulating, it's very similar in size to many of the expanded villages around York, which are all, virtually without exception, commuter settlements for the urban area, so the inevitable consequence of that size of new settlement, in my opinion, be it fourteen hundred, be it two thousand five hundred dwellings, it will be primarily a large housing estate set in the open countryside. +On that basis the City Council is doesn't feel able to support to support that proposal. +Thank you. +Can we have the County Council's response to that? +Mr Davis, do you want to make any comment on that? +Er yes I do, erm +Before I return to other people. +I really don't want to hog the debate because I know there are other +No it's alright, alright . +But certainly one, three things I'd like to respond to erm erm mm Mr Curtis. +First of all erm he justified his view on environmental considerations as as considered by the City Council, I think we would say, the County Council, that one of the main considerations that has brought us to the conclusion that we have are environmental considerations, the environment of York and its immeding immediate surroundings, the protection er of the York greenbelt, environmental considerations have been er at the most er in our minds. +But if I may interrupt, how do you cope with the argument that Mr Curtis was making that if your settlement is, say, less than two and a half thousand it is no more than a large housing estate which relies on the centre of York for its functions, of service, shopping, entertainment, and therefore that the difference between that the difference between a new settlement beyond the greenbelt and peripheral development, in those terms, is no different. +Well Mr Curtis of course is erm is what I would describe as using inflammatory descriptions to try and do down what's going to happen with a a new settlement, erm he seems to be convinced that what we're going to end up with er in Greater York is a development of the sort of er er character that he has described, it would be the clear intention of the local authorities to ensure that an appropriate self contained community erm er is developed, now erm there is no re +Is that really feasible at that level? +Can, sorry, can I I don't want to stray into item matter B . +Mm, mm. +if we can at this stage +I just want to get the concept of +Yes, yes. +of the thing clear. +Is it really feasible that at the sort of level that's being talked about, be it your level or the level being put forward by some of the objectors to the structure plan, the new settlement could actually hope to provide a good level of comparison shopping, for example? +Well can we make it absolutely clear that no settlement, anywhere, er in North Yorkshire, or in York and Humberside probably is self contained. +If you want to en try and ensure that you're going to have a self sustained community, one hundred percent, you make sure that presumably you've got a show case cinema with fifteen screens there, er a B and Q, erm a whole range of of facilities that nobody ever needs leave, erm erm erm er that new settlement, the reality of the real world of course is that all settlements to a greater or lesser degree, er have a relationship with other er larger scale settlements, now then let's look at the new settlement, fourteen hundred dwellings, we estimate that that is going to be of the order of around three thousand three hundred people, now that is sizeable, it is not small, it is larger than a number of the small market towns er in North Yorkshire, like Boroughbridge, Settle, it is a significant development erm erm and within it erm there will be a requirement er be a requirement for a a a primary school, it justifies that. +Certainly we cannot provide a fully one hundred percent sustainable community, you'd be talking about some vast city to move towards that, erm the re the real world is that the the hierarchy of settlements, erm all settlements, have greater or lesser degree of facilities depending on their size, and there'll be no difference er to the new settlement, and I think to to run an argument on the basis of Mr Curtis er has run it is unfair to the concept of the new settlement. +Thank you Mr Davis, I, I +Well there were two other points Chairman. +Yes go on. +Erm, the the reference of last resort was Mr Thomas's reference erm it it is not a reference which I think you find anywhere er in government guidance, and I think what P P G thre three says is the opportunity to to pursue them will be relatively rare, we think this is a relatively rare circumstance, er in North Yorkshire, it's unique, er and it's entirely driven er by justifiable er reasons to protect the the wider environment of Greater York. +The third thing, and I gu would have to say it's a bit of a red herring thrown out by Mr Curtis is the issue of traffic growth con concern on traffic growth. +Could I say to you that in terms of Greater York the County Council is the highway authority, the County Surveyor advises the County Council on traffic implications as a concept, the County Councillors highway authority is satisfied with the merits er of a new settlement. +I won't go any further, because I know there are other flags up rou round the room, Chairman. +Ca can I say, I'm attempting to stick with two A er, I think I'll take Mr Grantham, and then we'll adjourn for lunch. +But would you gentlemen who have flagged that you want to speak leave those flags up? +Alright? +Mr Grantham. +Er, er, John Grantham, C P R E. +Er, sir, at the risk of straying slightly into into two B, you, do forgive me in advance, but you raised the specific point about size, and and erm there was er one or two statements that there isn't a a clear view on size in P P G three, I think it's important to to bear in mind the interrelationship between all P P G s and as Mr Curtis said, the research that that backs them up, and I I I point you to three quotes in the statement that C P R E have put in, erm i i i paragraph four point one seven,an and s the quote that attaches to that is taken from the research that erm er backs up draft revised P P G thirteen, transport, and erm I shall quote from that on this question of size,i it is also evident that smaller settlements, those with populations of less than fifty thousand, but particularly very small settlements are characteristically less transport emissions efficient than larger settlements, I think the the erm essence of of that particular piece of research is not as Mr Davis was implying to achieve totally self contained settlements, I don't believe such a concept exists, it's actually erm a planning land use in the long term to reduce C O two emi emissions something that is essential now to government policy, I think perhaps more instructive though is is the quote that I've in included in paragraph four point one nine and that's taken from er er this book here which I perhaps should submit the whole chapter in evidence to to the panel, I've only just included one quote, it's it's I suggest one of the more interesting reads that you may have as a result of this panel, it's by Colin Ward, and it's called New Town, Home Town, it's undertaken by er, sorry includes some of the work that's been undertaken by the University of Reading, erm and er David Lock Associates, on erm er new town research, and this this is due to be published by H M S O shortly, it's unfortunate that it wasn't available in time for this E I P, but I think erm, if you'll bear with me, I will read out the quote that I put in four point one nine, because I feel that it is useful on this question of of size, we concluded that if you are interested in environmental impact, energy conser consumption, and sustainability, new settlements have to reach a certain size to be worthwhile, it's parallel to the old arguments that used to take place around self containment in new towns, we found that new settlements of much less than five thousand houses, that's about fourteen thousand people are not really worthwhile because if they are smaller than that you are simply putting a housing estate in the countryside, a phrase that that has already been put round this morning, it appears that the best minimum for a new settlement, the best minimum, is about ten thousand houses, that's that's twenty five thousand people, which as it happens is about the size of the original garden cities. +Starting from the logic of sustainability, we end up with a very similar size for a new community to the one that Howard was writing about a hundred years ago. +I erm think that that is quite useful research that has been undertaken for government, and it it has been carried through, er as I'm sure everybody is aware, into the U K strategy for sustainable development, the consultation period of which is just concluding, erm I won't take you any more of the panel's time to read that quote as it's written in my in my statement. +Yes, I I we have read it, we have read it. +Er obviously, I mean the new towns movement as conceived immediately after the war was geared to meeting London housing needs, you know, we're not comparing like with like, but I think, I take the point that you are making in terms of er sustainability. +Mr Spittle +Mr Spittle. +to say something. +Malcolm Spittle, County Councillor. +I was very interested to read this quote from David Lock, erm of David Lock associates, and I just wonder how it squares from the fact that er Mr Lock associates submitted an objection to H two on the grounds they wanted a settlement of eighteen hundred dwellings to the North of York. +Erm, it does seem to be something of a contradiction in terms there, and in fact Mr Lock isn't here today because his clients have subsequently withdrawn from the er E I P but er it would have been interesting to have asked him the question. +On that note, I think you should you should go and refresh yourselves. +Can we, can we reconvene at two o'clock, please. + +Ah there we are,. +Right abdominal wound, she's a wee bit confused. +She didn't bother to tell me that she'd only got to call you, right? +Erm she wasn't in her nightdress but she only dressed herself, she said +And you +She said she went to buy something herself, she phoned the clinic and the clinic . +She's here and says she should be fortnightly . +So I don't know whether you want to go and see her rather than, I could get a doctor to go and see her and phone,. +it's just that I'm never gonna get to up to. +? +Yeah. +Okay. +Yeah. +erm, first twelve weeks pregnant so should I mark at the bottom when she types . +Erm this one. + +Right Mr Gordon I think the room is now as full as it can get so we'll kick off today's proceedings er could you start by introducing your team for the record. +Yes of course it will be a pleasure. +I'm Jack Gordon, I'm Director General of aircraft one with the Ministry of Defence. +I'm the Project Manager for the United Kingdom er for the Eurofighter two thousand project at the international level I also chair the N E F M O board of directors. +On my left is Mr William Perry who's the Director of Finance and Secretariat, air one in the procurement executive. +On my right is Mr er Nick Evans who's the Head of Resources and Programmes Air and on my extreme right Group Captain Granville White who's Deputy Director, Operational Requirements air four. +Right thank you very much Mr Gordon. +Er can I just say at the outset that some of the material we'll be covering this morning may well be classified. +Yes. +Er when you feel that you can't answer our questions in open session, if you could indicate that then we will go into closed session at the end of the morning and cover that ground in that way. +Understood. +Looking first of all then at the operational performance of the aircraft, you have told us already in written answers that in the light of the changed security situation you have relaxed the Eurofighter requirement. +Can you tell us an indication of how much the changes reduce operational capability in percentage terms? +Erm well perhaps before I answer that question Mr Chairman, I could just briefly skim across the programme and bring you up to date as to where we are and then we'll go directly on to that point. +Very briefly would . +Yes, very brief . +Er well the committee will recall that shortly after it published its report in Spring ninety two, the new German Minister of Defence questioned whether the project was still required at that degree of sophistication. +For our part we had no doubt about the continuing need for an aircraft of Eurofighter two thousand's broad capabilities. +This view was subsequently confirmed by a thorough review of the operation requirement which was carried out under the direction of the four chiefs of defence staff. +The review of the requirement and the options for meeting it er culminated in an agreement between the four ministers of defence in December ninety two to re-orientate er the project. +We provided a note to the committee in January ninety three about this. +Well, re-orientation of the project has involved a line by line review of the European staff requirement, the E S R D to see whether it might be relaxed in the light of the changed international security situation. +It also involves rescheduling the whole programme so that decisions on commitments to production can be deferred until nineteen ninety five, with first deliveries to United Kingdom and Italy occurring in the year two thousand and to er Spain and Germany in two thousand and two. +Work by the staffs in the four ministries of defence and by the NATO agency N A F M A to re-orientate the project in line with the minister's directions is now at an advance stage. +The revised European staff requirement document has been signed now by the four chiefs of air staff, this was done last month. +A revised schedule for the development programme has now been agreed with industry and this will be taken into the contract. +The four governments are also resolved to cap their financial liabilities for this programme. +So negotiations are in progress on revised prices for the development phase. +These have taken somewhat longer than we anticipated but we are at last making good progress towards agreeing prices for the Eurojet contract and we are expecting to receive more acceptable price quotations from Eurofighter very shortly for their part of the work. +The changes to the programme also require a new memorandum understanding with our partners. +The draft for this is almost complete but it can't be finalised until the costs of the revised programme have been agreed for each of the participating nations. +All being well this new M O U will be ready for submission to ministers by the middle of this year. +Turning now to the development work itself in general, the development work is going well. +There have been no fundamental technical problems. +There has been a very considerable delay to the first flight but this is now scheduled for April this year. +The delay has been due mainly to the need to be absolutely certain about the integrity of the flight control system software before the aircraft takes to the air. +While the delay to the start of the flying programme has been much longer than anyone would wish, much more progress has been made in the ground and rig testing than at the comparable stage of any previous project I have been associated with and we are very satisfied indeed with the results that have been obtained so far. +There is assessment in the wind tunnels, for example, is complete and the results are good. +The structural test programme is also making extremely good progress and the results from the engine test programme are ex very encouraging indeed. +The performance of the engine, on the bench, already meets its full specification for thrust and fuel efficiency and even it exceeds it slightly in some respects. +So overall we remain very confident that the Eurofighter two thousand will meet the full operational requirement. +So now turning to the point which er I think you asked us to address. +Can we quantify, or explain, the areas in which we have made some relaxation and I'll ask Group Captain Granville White to answer that. +Well the specific question I asked is whether you've quantified in percentage terms erm perhaps Group Captain you could give us an indication of how it has affected it? +Yes certainly, yes. +The point about er relaxations and what impact it would have on its combat capability. +I think the important point I'd like to make at the outset is that when the review of the requirement was carried out it was carried out both nationally and on a four nation basis, the ministers, once that was complete, the ministers decided that and stated publicly in December ninety two, that we will continue with the existing airframe and engine combination and that each nation er based on a family of aircraft concept could decide from a menu which equipments it would fit according to their individual requirements and their budget and we looked individually at each of the items to see what impact it would have on the operational capability if we were to remove them and what erm was decided in the end and the requirement reflects this, was signed last month by the Chief Surveyor's staff, is that some nations have decided to remove certain items of equipment but for the U K we felt that it was necessary to keep all the major items and therefore as far as the U K is erm impact on the operational requirement is concerned, there is no significant alteration in its operational capability and therefore in overall percentage terms there is no decrease in the capability at all. +Now individual nations who've decided to do without a particular item of equipment, clearly that will be developed into the aircraft and therefore they have the option to if they wish to d decide later on to fit it in. +Thank you. +I'll I think at least four particular areas where the United Kingdom has decided not to, as it were, take the full specification. +Er, can we have a look at those or or at least, has accepted specific changes to those specifications. +Can we have a look at those four and if you could, I'd be grateful if you can tell me what change in the security situation, as envisaged by the government, has led to our acceptance of those changes. +Now the first one, which was mentioned by the minister in the R A F debate, er is the reduced requirement to operate on damaged runways. +What change of perception in the security situation has led to our accepting that diminution of capability. +Yes the there are two aspects really to that, one is the length of runway operating er and the other is the surface, erm, if I could take the first one. +When the requirement was originally written erm and agreed in nineteen eighty seven all of the nations decided that erm we required a short take off and landing capability and that was based on the sort of the then cold war situation where the prospects of runways and airfields being very severely damaged in a sort of central European type of scenario, and therefore the possibility that there might be only very small operating strips available from those runways and that was the basis for the particular length that was decided at the time. +Because of the changed security situation and that type of er conflict not being envisaged in the same way now, what we felt was important was to be able to operate er apart from main operating bases, but also from sort of general purpose erm strips, flying clubs and those type of smaller airfields and therefore rather than looking at the damaged runway situation, we looked at the smaller strips and took a length that we could sensibly operate from erm and took that as the yardstick but clearly notwithstanding that, there is the prospect of damaged runways and therefore the slight relaxation would also apply to damaged runways but perhaps damaged to a lesser extent. +I think perhaps if I just add a point to that er although we have as four nations agreed on the revised requirement there, I believe it's true to say that development has progressed to such an extent that probably we will have the original requirement in practice, even though we've no longer specified it. +That's very encouraging. +For no extra charge. +Can we then look at the reduced engine thrust erm this presumably would have a significant impact on combat performance, er why is there any change in the security situation that would warrant such a a relaxation? +Yes the particular item that was deleted was known as the combat override facility which erm was really a trade off erm to provide extra thrust against the reduced life of the engine and clearly if one operates at the top end of the engine spectrum in er hotter conditions and higher er R P M then clearly the life of the engine will be reduced. +Now we had originally had this extra facility available er so that we could trade off life against the extra thrust in an emergency but there was clearly the possibility erm that that might be used er when it really wasn't necessary and we would end up with extra costs, extra life cycle costs, shorter engine life and it was felt on balance that with a reduced threat overall that it was sensible to take out that facility and to accept a longer engine life, but not, there's no reduction in the total normal thrust but its merely its override combat facility. +I it doesn't speak very highly if I may say so Group Captain, for R A F discipline if what you're telling me and telling the committee that you think that pilots should be using this facility, would be using this facility when they're ordered not to. +No I wasn't suggesting that Mr Chairman. +Well why would it be used in circumstances when it was not needed otherwise? +I was only thinking really of erm particularly extreme situations erm and I would expect it to be used for example in normal training or anything like that and er certainly all the studies show that the normal thrust, full thrust that was available was sufficient to meet the threat and this extra capability really was a a sort of an extra that was added in early on and really wasn't felt on any of the combat modelling to be necessary. +I think I would actually like to pursue that point Group Captain but I I think I'd rather pursue it in in the closed session than an open session. +Now can we move on to the reduced quantities of role equipment. +Can you tell us what role equipment items have been deleted. +Yes, it was not so much a deletion as er a reduction in the numbers because we were very mindful erm in going through the requirement erm and not making significant changes as far as the U K was concerned and we needed to make some savings in cost if at all possible and therefore we carried out a very comprehensive review of all the items of role equipment such as drop tanks er pylons, explosive release units and those type of things which had been provisionally earmarked for a very high intensive and fairly long running conflict and it was felt that if we were to make some savings then it was a sensible balance to reduce those numbers on the basis that we could save some money in the programme but at the same time many of these items could be bought later on at relatively short notice, clearly not within a conflict but in the years to come. +on that point. +Erm as far as the drop tanks are concerned, does that have any impact on the range or are you just talking about the numbers that you will have spare? +They're purely on on the numbers, the same er stand, the different sizes would still be available, there would merely be fewer of them in total stocks. +But would you envisage that the numbers er of aircraft actually kitted out with these things have been reduced or are you talking about having spares in case they get lost or damaged? +No the the very name, as the name implies, in many cases we would er jettison the drop tanks before entering combat and er therefore there is an agreed rate at which we would expect to use them so that they are a a usable stock in operations . +and in training presumably do you drop them in training or do you not? +No, not normally, no. +So it's only operational. +Yes. +And can you give an indication of how quickly these things could be ordered in an emergency? +Perhaps I can take that one er Group Captain. +Once the erm drop tanks have been developed and have entered production in most of the lead time one associates with providing a capability has er has actually been avoided so we could re-order probably within a year. +Very reassuring Mr Gordon, I, we're not necessarily gonna have a year's warning that that we're going to need these aircraft in the event of war. +Well, that of course er may be true but er as the Group Captain has has said here in the reduced er spec position which we now face and judgement was taken as to how much we should invest in stocks of reserve drop tanks at this point and the option exists to order more. +Can I ask it's absolutely meaningless to me, do you mean a month, three months, nine months, eleven months, eleven and a half months, what do you mean? +No what I mean is that er once the item is in production if you wish to order another hundred drop tanks or another thousand drop tanks if you make that order then approximately one year later you would receive deliveries of those tanks against that order. +Now that would be the normal peacetime lead time if we could accelerate that in industry and find some way of doing it then it may well be possible to do in quicker time than that. +So in approximately one year you might be fourteen months or fifteen months? +I I'm er quoting a hypothetical situation here that we have entered production with er production line for drop tanks maybe producing two, three thousand tanks against a projected usage for the next ten years and sometime during that period we decide you want to order an additional thousand tanks two thousand tanks then you could adjust the rate at which the deliveries occur, you could adjust the the the total quantity and with about a years notice industry can get in the materials and produce the goods for you. +Does that answer your question? +If er there was a crisis and there was a need for a rush order er one would be talking of weeks for something that is predesigned to start coming off the production line. +experience during the Falklands war and during Gulf war indicated that once an item was in production tremendous acceleration is possible in the real war situation. +Yes. +I was discussing a year for a normal peacetime lead time. +Presumably drop tanks aren't lost very often in peace time, it's operations that you've actually jettisoned, is that right? +That is absolutely right, correct. +Bruce George. +Thank you,i do you feel a little uneasy at changing operational requirements based on er an assessment of a threat in nineteen ninety two, ninety three, which I presume would have to remain valid until two thousand and twenty. +So how confident are you that potential adversaries will not have the capability in two thousand and twenty to make a mess of our runways as the Soviets would have done during the er the cold war? +Erm I'm asking this question to e satisfy myself that these changes and reduction in costs are not the result of political expediency as opposed to er a genuine assessment of what the risk in the change environment is likely to be. +fine. +That is precisely the background to the study which was conducted by the four chiefs of defence staff, they were asking that kind of question and I'll now ask the Group Captain to respond. +Yes er I think perhaps the point I'd like to emphasis is that the increase er in runway length is really quite a modest one er and therefore it hasn't had an enormous impact. +Well the answer is yes but of course landing and taking off on a road is one thing, being able to operate is another one because clearly one needs er fuel, weapons, ground crew and the like but landing on a road in itself is is not difficult. +Peter +My I move to er questions about the er comparison between the erm Eurofighter and other fighters it might find itself in combat with. +Well Peter I'm sorry but the notice only said once,Winston is meant to lead us into that I'm sorry. +Right I'm sorry . +Winston Churchill. +When you updated er the combat analysis using the latest data on Eurofighter did you again compare er Eurofighter with alternatives such as an updated F sixteen or F fifteen er previous combat modelling showed that an alternative aircraft er apart from the F twenty two, did not approach the capability of Eurofighter. +Did the latest modelling confirm this and what is the next best alternative in terms of capability. +Right, Group Captain Granville White. +Yes wh when they reported to the committee two years ago erm I explained that there was combat modelling going on at at the time and indeed that was completed by the end of nineteen ninety two and it showed that er of all the alternatives available then Eurofighter two thousand was the most cost effective solution to the R A F's requirements and yet it would it would not be able to meet up er to the F twenty two but other than that it was superior to all other aircraft. +At the moment erm because of the extra time we've got available because production investment has been delayed because of ministerial decisions, we've set in train three further studies and they will look collectively at alternatives, comparison in combat modelling and also in the numbers and if I could describe those three very briefly because I think they're the they're relevant to what we're talking about. +The the two, initially there are two studies which will look into numbers, one of those is a top downs study which is based on scenarios and will look at erm a variety of different situations around the world from an analytical point of view. +The second one is erm a bottom up study which is based on today's commitments but projecting them forward into the timescale in which we will have the aircraft and looking in that way to see how many and and in what way we would need them. +The third one focusing in specifically on the combat modelling is what is known as a C O E I A which is a combined operational effectiveness and investment appraisal and this work is being carried out at Farnborough and we're comparing in single roles and multi-role Eurofighter two thousand against different aircraft. +So for example, in the specialist air defence er side we're looking at alternatives would be the F twenty two erm the current tornado F three and also an upgraded variant of the F three. +In the ground attack side we're comparing it to the jaguar that it'll replace, the harrier G R seven and also the tornado G R four and then in the multi-role arena for air defence, air superiority and attack we're comparing our aircraft against the French Raphall the American F eighteen E which is the the future variant of the F eighteen, the F fifteen E, the multi-role but primarily air to surface machine and also the F sixteen C. Those are the ones we're currently looking at. +As the cost of Eurofighter increases does there come a point where like the F twenty two i it becomes unaffordable and by how much would the performance of Eurofighter have to be degraded before it becomes equivalent to the nearest alternative? +I wonder if I could answer that in a in a different way because clearly rather there's the option, rather than reduction the operational capability which was really the er initiative that had begun in nineteen ninety two, there is the option of course of er adjusting the total numbers and that would er have an overall bearing on the total programme cost but cert because certainly the judgement of the er the chiefs of staff was that er as far as the U K was concerned then we we should retain the operational capability as I explained earlier an n and not decrease it in any significant extent because if we did that then we could end up er with an inferior capability against a potential threat. +During the last year erm when we were working on the requirement, we carried out a number of erm comparisons descoping or aircraft in various respects. +For example taking out the forward looking infra-red, infra-red search and track, taking out the the M I D S, the multiple information distribution system and certain aspects of the er defensive aids, to see what impact that would have and we found that if we removed any one of those erm then we would either come down to parity against potential threat or possibly er inferiority and that was really the supporting evidence to retain the full capability. +But Group Captain are you saying that as er a platform it has not been degraded at all, there's basically no change in thrust, in turn rate or in airframe G loading? +Yes, that's correct. +Thank you. +Peter was your question answered or not? +No in the air superiority role I didn't hear a comparison with the S U thirty five or the Fulcrum M E twenty nine S er are there any other aircraft of er perhaps comparable capacity with which you did not compare Eurofighter? +What we've done,won one of the points I think that is worth er making perhaps is that on er over the last few years we've seen a complete change in world export philosophy where not only are the Russians exporting all over the place but clearly er there are a number of western aircraft in different parts of the world and therefore what we have also done is to, in comparing er our aircraft against other western ones, we've also looked at them as potential threats because it's possible that er erm western aircraft in certain hands could end up being used against us so we have also compared those. +But the question that young pilots would want to know the answer to is this, erm are there aircraft anywhere in the world with which you have not made a comparison in terms of air superiority? +No, there are none. +So you have compared with the +And the S U? +Yes we've compared with everything and specifically the ones you've mentioned, the S U thirty five and the which is an upgraded S U twenty seven and the M I G twenty nine S, yes we've specifically compared against those two. +And you've been reassured by the responses? +Yes. +Thank you Chairman. +Thank you, Michael Colgan +Yes Mr Chairman I'm not clear erm about something that Mr Gordon said in his opening remarks that I'd like clarified and that is that he gave the committee the impression that there were er certain of the of the partners that were accepting erm a lower specification in other words, omitting from the what is the British best if you like, erm certain items of of equipment in order to reduce cost of the aircraft, both in development stage and at the production stage, final cost of the aircraft, unit cost. +Erm we asked the question about the aircraft's reduced operational capabilities as far as Britain is concerned, we were told that there was no reduction, erm there was no percentage figure that could be produced but w now what about the other countries, I mean, which countries are asking for what to be omitted and by how much is the percentage, in percentage terms er is the performance of the aircraft reduced in those cases and further on from that, picking up something that that Wing Com er Group Captain Granville White has just mentioned which i is the question of sales. +Yes. +Erm it does obviously have a bearing on sales to the third countries when the er aircraft is in production. +Do I get the impression that we're basically building a a basic aircraft with optional extras, or are we building an aircraft which can be, to some degree, sanitised because obviously there are some parts of the specification of the aircraft we may not wish third cra countries to have. +It's a well known fact that aircraft are sold all around the world, this can have a bearing on the capability and also a bearing on their cost and therefore saleability. +Perhaps, from those remarks, it's hardly a question but perhaps you could just clarify +Yes. +my er thinking on on the on what you said in opening remarks which don't make it clear to me whether we've got a basic aircraft with optional extras or a fully specified aircraft from which we can dat deleted certain items of equipment. +Erm, well I think I can reassure that it is the latter. +The development programme for the aircraft will provide the broad range of capabilities which was asked for by all four nations originally and er the fact that one or more nations may have deleted its requirement for a particular facility doesn't remove the need for us to complete the development work er because we still have at least one or two customers for that facility. +So it's definitely the latter, we are developing a fully capable Eurofighter two thousand aircraft and if erm any of our four participating nations do not want a particular facility then we will make provision for them to leave that out in production and if an export customer does not require the full range of capabilities we can also remove them for that export customer. +But by how much could we degrade the aircraft and still be capable of erm competing with erm other aircraft in in the market? +Well I I I would prefer to perhaps follow this one up in the closed session later but erm. +we we'll pursue that er in private. +Neville Trotter. +going to go into service in the next century, it's going to be around till well into the next century. +Very briefly what would it do that the present generation of aircraft won't, how is it a quantum leap ahead? +Fine, I will again invite the the Group Captain to answer that. +Perhaps I could er answer that in er I think there are probably four points that er come out to my mind erm the first one in the airframe engine combination, a very high degree of agility. +The ability to be able to pull nine G which is er generally accepted to be the physiological limit for pilots, which is more than any of our aircraft can . +What can we do now by contrast? +Er, none of our aircraft can pull more than seven G, normal aircraft. +There's also a close correlation by not just the erm the size of the number for G, but how long can it go on pulling that G given the thrust and the aerodynamic capabilities of the machine and we are essentially building this aircraft so that it can sustain nine G and we are providing the pilot with the sort of equipment he requires to be able to survive in that kind of environment. +Is this for a dog fight? +Yes, yes. +. +Th it has er a considerable negative G capability as well. +Would it be able, er pulling that erm G to compete with the with the harrier using the technique? +Erm Group Captain Granville White. +The simple answer is yes. +Er so I think the first of my four points is the is the airframe agility, clearly the the ability to m manoeuvre. +The second erm is is and perhaps is related in a way er in the air to air weapons where erm in older missiles have had what is known as sort of bore sight capability where they go in the direction of the aircraft. +Clearly to have the combination of an off bore sight capability for a a missile such as A S R A A M, the er advance short range air to air missile, the combination of the agility of the weapon and the flat platform together has been shown to be really needed, you can't have one without the other and that somebody who has only agility in the aircraft or agility in the in the weapon, will lose against somebody who has it in both. +So I think that's the probably the sort of related point. +Moving on into the sort of sensors and the electronics side, erm for survivability erm the defensive aid sub- system will be er very complex, very sophisticated but also integrated so that it has a complete system of protection for the aircraft, erm an and finally moving on on the sort of electronics side then clearly with different sensors such as the radar, the forward looking infra-red, infra-red search and track the er multiple information distribution system and also certain aspects of the er electronic warfare suite then by having sensor fusion which enables the best information at any one time to be correlated into the system as a whole then that will provide a very good capability and far in excess of anything that we have at the moment. +Thank you very much. +I'll ask Campbell to take us on into the question of the role of this aircraft. +We understand that some new weapons, not previously in the specification, are to be included. +Are you able to tell us in open session what sort of weapons are envisaged? +Erm perhaps I can invite my colleague from the office of management and budgets to speak to that one. +Erm chairman yes we hope to to erm, excuse me, to erm that E four will be capable of er sorry E F two thousand will be capable of handling all our erm planned weapons er which are already in our programme the er conventional er, the C A S O M, the conventionally armed, stand-off missile, the er anti- armour missile er twelve thirty eight and the future medium range air-to-air missile er whatever that happens to be er as a result of er competition. +What about the low level laser guided bomb, is that also included in this? +Yes it is. +Erm does the fact of erm using the aircraft to er provide a platform for these systems, er tell us something about a change in view about the role or operating concept of the aircraft? +Erm Group Captain Granville White . +thank you Erm not not change erm with envisagement . +Widen +Wi certainly broaden, we've we've envisaged from the outset that the aircraft would be both will be multi- role capable and that erm all that the primary design driver will be the air-to-air air superiority role but the air-to-surface role would be almost an equal, clearly one has to have a a prioritisation and those particular weapons in the air-to-surface side, the conventional armed stand off missile along the low level er low level laser guided bomb and the future anti armour weapon, they clearly erm really take the weaponeering side into the next century. +We will still have the ability to carry today's weapons such as the the L seven five five cluster bomb unit, the thousand pound bomb erm and the C R V seven rocket and things like that but clearly as we move forward into the century it's important that as the platform progresses then so does the aircraft. +Are the any weapons er which the aircraft er would not be able to , for example the J P two three three closely associated with the tornado, er is that a system which you would anticipate Eurofighter two thousand to be able to carry? +No, it it's too large and too heavy and really that is a different role that's more the role for the tornado G L one, G L four. +And I think you mentioned thousand pounds bombs. +Yes. +Is that the, is that the limit could anything heavier than that +It's , no it's not the limit er the limit of weight, it can carry er heavier ones. +You may not wish to say in open session . +I think probably as you . +in closed session. +Yes, it's probably more appropriate. +Erm I was rather interested by the comparisons which you explained a little earlier in the evidence erm if you've got an aircraft which is er going to replace, as I understand it the Jaguar and the Phantom which has already been retired,er against which you've been comparing the F three er and the G R four of the tornados and the harriers, then er that gives rise in my mind to the possibility that this is an aircraft which might replace all of these, in which case will that have consequences for the still er publicly declared intention to order two hundred and fifty, might we order more for example? +Mr Evans. +Erm as you say Mr Campbell er the plan at the moment is that the F two thousand will replace jaguar and the tornado A D V F three aircraft and the scope er of replacing other aircraft er remains under consideration, er provisional off take of two fifty er was declared at the d the start of the development phase and of course our work share in development is based on that number. +Before we seek authorisation for the production phase, it will be necessary for each nation to restate or modify it's planned off take and that will be done very firmly on the basis of the studies which er Group Captain Granville White has already d described which will factor in er against our military tasks, which is,y you know we define now fairly clearly, er exactly what aircraft are needed to undertake those tasks in what scenarios and in the future er as you say, there may well be scope for er adding additional aircraft types to that. +Well I think I understand that answer to be an affirmative, that if this aircraft is capable of replacing, if you like, the suite of aircraft we've been discussing, then er that may well result in orders for more than two hundred fifty. +It could do because obviously there are a number of other considerations, not least affordability er within the defence programme which erm from my point of view is a very important consideration. +But of course if one wants to continue to have the capability into the next century, which the present er range of aircraft provides, er then Eurofighter two thousand may be the only available platform for those purposes. +Indeed and I think the er the point about Eurofighter is that it's a very flexible er aircraft, it's a multi-role aircraft, it's a cost effective aircraft and therefore it er, as you say, may well be able to cover quite a large spectrum. +Can I ask you about er the medium range surface to air missile because er, you won't be surprised to learn, that er the committee's received a number of submissions on this matter er which suggest that er er t to proceed with Eurofighter two thousand without the medium range surface to air missile er I mean to be put rather bluntly to us, that it makes little sense to proceed with the aircraft without a replacement for blood hound. +What's your response to that? +Well I think perhaps I can start that and the Group Captain may want to come in. +Er I think our position is that we provide as you know, air defence through a layered system er of air defence aircraft and missiles and the simple truth is that in the light of the changes in the strategic er setting, particularly er as it affects U K air defence, we have decided that the provision of a medium defensive layer, that is the M sound system to which you refer, is not a high priority at the moment and the programme is therefore being postponed and I have to emphasise it's not been abandoned. +Well erm if I were then to ask you when what was your best estimate to when the programme was likely to be commenced. +I fancy you would not be able to give me any more precise an answer than one you've just given, isn't that right? +Well programmers tend not to be precise in this, in this kind of er context er Mr Campbell. +But certainly we er as I said, the essential point is that we are looking, looking at the capability across the board and taking into account the strategic requirement as we see it in terms of the direct threat to the U K in particular, which is obviously dramatically declined as a result of the collapse of the Warsaw pact. +We believe that certainly for the time being, the combination of the fighter aircraft and rapier will provide an acceptable level er of air defence with a much reduced air threat to the U K er which now exists. +We will continue to look at er the future programme er we will also as you know, look at ballistic missile defence which is another element to this and that must need to be fact facted in as well but I think clearly we are not talking about in the medium term er and longer term, we are talking about er a fairly late stage of the programme. +I mean how do you protect Eurofighter two thousand in the absence of the medium range surface to air missile on the, I think you you told us about er the aircraft themselves as it were providing their own protection but what else? +Well as I've said we we have as you say y y yourself, you have the aircraft itself, you have the er the existing er air defence aircraft, you have rapier and in in our view, er in certainly in terms of the U K's threat er that is er an acceptable er er suite of preventative measures in the light of the threat which we now have. +I think I have to make the point to you that we are planning to roughly double the size of the er airforce equipment programme er between now and the end of the century, a very substantial chunk of that is E F two thousand and its er associated weapon systems and, you know, one has to frankly, take er a view on priorities er in the light of the strategic requirement and given the er extent of the threat as we see it, the possibility of using er of taking part in out of area operations in coalitions, that kind of thing, that was the judgement we took er the medium term priorities were such that we couldn't afford the first er stage of A M S A M. +W was that decision to any extent er influenced by, if I can put it rather er ineptly, the state of blood hound when it was taken out of service. +Well as you know I think the committee looked at this erm in nineteen ninety one and er I think it is fairly true to say that by the time it was taken out of service blood hound did not represent a very high level of capability erm and the gap, there is a gap obviously between blood hound it'll it'll now be a rather longer gap between that and any A M S A M replacement, er but blood hound itself was judged to be frankly not worth having. +I remember Mr Alan Clarke who was then minister of responsibility saying rather elliptically in the house of commons that the removal of blood hound did nothing to degrade Britain's air defence. +I would not wish to disagree with Mr Clarke. +Well I wouldn't offer that as a general er proposition. +Neither would I actually, in this particular case . +perhaps we should confine it to the specifics we're talking. +One last matter please erm, so far as I understand that you've not yet drafted the separate staff requirement for reconnaissance, I beg you pardon, reconnaissance equipment for Eurofighter two thousand. +Are you able to tell us what the timescale of that is? +Perhaps I can ask Group Captain? +Yes. +of the four nations in the programme, the U K is the only one that has a requirement for reconnaissance. +Erm, and at the moment we are carrying out some studies which er are nearing completion, to decided exactly what the R A F's future requirements are for tactical reconnaissance. +As that work comes to er fruition, the staff target will be drafted and in fact work is already begun on that, erm but because the reconnaissance capability won't be required until fairly late in the replacement programme then there is no particular hurry to get on with the work. +What we hope to be able to do is to complete the requirement the staff target this year and set in train some industrial studies to see what the various options are and then once we enter the production investment phase then that would be the time that we would er look to doing the development work. +Are these costs included in the overall estimates which have been given to us f for the reconnaissance. +reconnaissance. +Er, yes indeed they are. +They are many thanks, thank you. +Neville Trotter. +from what you've told us, it would be possible for this aircraft to be so multi mission it could replace the whole of the front line er R A F fast jet strain, could that be true? +Group Captain. +I I think the the the point I would I wish to make is that in whilst er its multi role capability would have enabled it to replace a number of roles and possibly a number of er aircraft and er as Mr Evans said earlier, that's still being looked at. +The one role that it won't be able to carry out is, as we were talking earlier, about the er J P two three three, runway denial weapon and also er nuclear. +So that that,those two roles er clearly cannot be covered by it. +I I was also thinking o of Veestol and and er the weapons going on and the mistakes anyway on on the developing a harrier replacement, is the R A F still interested in that as a feature a short take-off vertical take-off? +I think the R A F would would clearly be interested in in keeping in touch with what's going on there, of course the states themselves er the picture is not entirely clear er about er what kind of types are going to emerge in the longer term but we would certainly wish to keep a a close view on what was going on and of course there is a Navy dimension to to the harrier replacement as well. +Coming back to what you said about the load carrier, we are supposed to no longer be in the nuclear game in the airforce, isn't that right coming out of the nuclear role? +So that would no longer be a consideration. +I think I think erm it's a question, Mr Trotter, it's the long range penetrator I think which erm is is the distinction, it's the ability to get through low level, longer range and carrying greater level of ordnance than either . +Wh what about er runway lengths, obviously depends on what it's carrying but er how how does it compare with existing aircraft for that? +Erm, it's very much shorter because as we were saying earlier on the the short take off and landing capability, erm with er I'd prefer to talk about distances perhaps in the closed session but the er the simple answer is very much . +Only one crew member with all the technology in the world, some of us still think that it's a comfort to have somebody in the back watching the systems. +Well that particular subject of course is er er still a matter which is discussed with great heat er in the crew rooms all over the Royal Air Force. +Especially the navigators. +Exactly and er we are buying er a two seat version of this aeroplane er our two seat version is aimed primarily at operational training but er we have examined er time and again whether we believe the er the integration of the avionics which is possible in this aeroplane and which is planned for this aeroplane er is going to be able to reduce the pilot work load to such an extent that one man can comfortably do the job and we have arrived at the conclusion that he most certainly can. +The er work which has preceded at er British Aerospace in the the cockpit, to bring together all the information, displays and controls erm has been tested on er a team of eighteen pilots from, drawn from the four nations, to see whether they believe they can cope with that sort of pilot work load in in simulated operations and they're content that this kind of cockpit is ideally suited for the task and they can cope. +So we are convinced that it is er a cheap one. +What about spare aircraft. +Do you set out the sum, er you must set out some calculation of how many you are likely to to lose over the life of the aircraft, is there a percentage figure you could give us for that? +Erm, Mr Evans er will reply to that, obviously we we do plan for certain levels. +Yes I think it's fair to say at the moment that, that, that is being looked at Mr Trotter, together with er the broader range of issues on the er the operating concept er for E F two thousand but it is of course standard practice to buy not just the number you need for the front line but to buy sufficient aircraft to keep that front line in field for about twenty five, thirty years, whatever the life of the aircraft happens to be, taking account of er attrition, taking account of training requirements and engineering needs and support needs and all that kind of thing and all that work er is, has been done, is being done at the moment and er final figures will be put to that in in due course. +Thank you, Mr Colgan. +Mr erm bearing in mind it its multi role capability and the fact that the U K is likely to be engaged in more and more out of air operations in support of U N er has any consideration been given to a maritime variant. +Would that be er a practical thing to do or would you have to start redesigning a new aircraft? +Er by maritime variant do you . +I mean from air, to fly from aircraft carriers. +The short answer is no. +Not at this stage. +Is that because of technical difficulties, or for some other reason. +Erm er it's basically that there is no stated requirement at present from any of the four nations, for this aircraft to operate on ships er back in the early days of the programme when the the French were involved er we looked at the possibility of designing an aircraft er to provide the whole spectrum of capabilities from air defence er ground attack and also maritime operations off ships and er we we certainly experienced some difficulties in reconciling all those things in one design, which was adequately capable in each of the areas. +Thank you Campbell. +There's an ambiguity I suspect it it's a in my mind rather than yours about the nuclear role, did I understand you to say that Eurofighter two thousand would not have the capability of carrying for instance the W E one seven seven, we know that the is not going to be er taken any further according to recent announcement but will Eurofighter two thousand have the capacity to carry W E one seven seven? +No that demonstrated the point I was making, it will not. +So it, in the absence of the Tasm and in the absence of the capability then it's not gonna have a nuclear role. +No. +Thank you very much. +Winston Churchill. +Would there not be merits er at least putting in the requisite wiring in case at a future date, that a C A S O M for instance, became dual capable? +Er, perhaps I could make er one comment, maybe Mr Gordon will ma wish to make a a technical comment on it, but certainly when we began the programme and we discussed with the other nations in the early stages of of the collaboration. +erm It was really one of the guidelines, it was the, if we considered doing that then I don't think we would have had a four nation programme or certainly a five nation programme at the start, I don't think we would've er stayed together, it was really one of the basic requirements not to have that capability. +But is it not an add on capability er to a large degree if the basic wiring is there? +I think we'd find Mr Churchill that it it's rather more complex than that and and the requirements for delivering a nuclear weapon and you refer to the possibility of C A S O M being nuclear capable, one has to be fairly careful quite a, there's a degree of difference between a missile needed to do the two jobs and I think it would be rather more than wiring which would be er at issue here, there's the payload and all the rest of it which I suspect would cause very severe problems with that. +Er well we always start from what does the operator of this aircraft want to use it for. +This E S R D really is the bible and we have specified the aircraft to meet that E S R D and not anything extra, er obviously if one of the four nations wants to build a nuclear role into the aircraft that becomes a very big political question first and foremost and we have just not considered it at the technical level at all because it's er it's not in the requirement. +Is it a big technical problem or is it very straight forward. +Er I don't think I'd wish to speculate in in open forum. +It doesn't require a great bite of imagination to see that the Germans for example would have been extremely reluctant to have been involved in a four nation project with a nuclear capability available as part of it. +Well I I I wouldn't er pin point the German attitude on this one, I mean after all we did collaborate with Germany very successfully on the tornado which has a nuclear role but the the four governments must first of all decide if that is what we want to build into this aeroplane and they decided that they did not at that stage. +I stand corrected. +Fine. +If I just er end this this particular item in two brief questions. +From what you said about reconnaissance equipment it rather sounds to me as if the tornado D R one A is likely to be replaced by in this reconnaissance role. +Is that right? +I think as a Group Captain er explained y'know the the operational staff have really got to complete their study into what kind of tactical reconnaissance capability they want in the next century. +The D R one A is currently an excellent er tactical reconnaissance aircraft, all weather, at night etcetera and er it will go on well into the next century so there's no great hurry to to make a decision er one of the first points has gotta be decided is whether we carry the reconnaissance equipment in a pod under the aircraft replacing some of the other weapons or whether we try to build it in and er but taking first things first we have to get the requirement sorted out. +Thank you and as far as the jaguar's concerned I noted that the jaguar is not being phased out now until two thousand and four, that being a three year further delay. +Is that related to the delay in production dates? +Erm, Mr Evans. +Er no I don't think it is Mr Chairman. +And do we know what the reasoning behind it is . +Well we do or we'd, it had already been envisaged that er the jaguars would run out at er roughly that time. +I think it was three years earlier though wasn't it? +Well er the I mean there has been a slight complexity with the replacement er programme of course because er er E F two thousand was originally envisaged that it would replace the phantoms er as as as as well as the jaguars and now that er has altered with the decision in options to er get rid of er the phantom squadrons, we've er been able to adjust the replacement programme such that er the aircraft E F two thousand will replace er the erm er the jaguar and some of the F threes er and the programme will be adjusted such that we get er the most cost effective er mixture of replacement of those two types and there is no problem with keeping the jaguar going until that stage and it may well be it is, is being judged to be cheaper that we should er do some F three replacement at the same time, again partly for cost reasons because it's gonna be more cost effective to do it that way. +like the jaguar really be able to go on that long given er that er there's an awful lot of errors in the Gulf apart from anything else. +Well obviously that factor er was considered carefully by the Ministry of Defence before our Secretary of State agreed that we could safely defer the in service date for Eurofighter two thousand and adjust the the er replacement plan er back in December ninety two, so we have looked at what is the current rate of consumption of airframe life on the jaguar er what can be done economically and sensibly to keep it flying safely and effectively into the next century and er we have come to the conclusion that we have a viable plan here which can tie up with the planned rate of delivery to service of Eurofighter two thousand. +So are you gonna have to restrict training in er operational flights jaguar at a stretch just to stretch out the hours? +We understand that that is not necessary but erm my colleague may wish to. +No . +But it does sound from what you're telling us now that it is actually directly related and to recall my original question, was it related to programme to which I had the answer no, erm what you said . +Well I I apologise we're not trying to mislead you er Mr Chairman in any way. +Clearly there is a connection, if Eurofighter two thousand was available earlier then they the plan for replacing er some of the aircraft in the R A F's front line er could be adjusted accordingly erm but it's not a sort of direct one for one er if the part of the programme slips a year the jaguar must go on an extra year because within the R A F's overall plans for its er fleet replacement there is a certain degree of flexibility an and precisely which point the jaguars get replaced is er a judgement between them and their three. +I think I know what you mean anyway, thank you. +Neville Trotter +Two er requirements for the future that er seem to be er er desirable are stealth and what could be stealthier than the present generation of aircraft and secondly to prevent you having to go over your target you're likely to be shot down so that you need a stand up weapon capability, er if the payload is somewhat limited can it still carry stand off weapons that are effective? +Er, Group Captain. +those yes, yes. +Erm perhaps I could would it, I wonder if you could just expand on stealth exactly what the er +Have actually already covered them another time and I don't want to get deeper in the stealth now than that, there's a limit on the time now available this morning. +Can we deal with the weapon question, the stand off weapons. +I can answer that very briefly Mr Chairman er yes, there will be the capability to carry stand off weapons the conventionally armed stand off missile for example will have a good stand off range. +That will be carried by . +That will be carried and er with a shorter range but the advanced anti armour weapon, that will also have a stand off capability and that will also be carried. +go on into the development timescale and costs. +Yes it's now going to take two years longer I think than was originally er contended, to what extent is this due to technical difficulties and to what extent is it due to one of our partners and Germany one's thinking of in particular, wishing to slow the programme down for fiscal reasons? +Well erm it's a combination of both those factors er as I've mentioned at the outset the development programme has moved ahead a little more slowly than we would wish, the main reasons for this were associated firstly with the delay in selecting equipment er and that took longer than our contractor ha had imagined. +Secondly the deliveries of the equipment from the equipment suppliers who had been selected er generally fell behind the promises which they had made, so the main reason for the technical delays has been lack of equipment of the correct standard to proceed with the integration programme erm the erm the problems which beset the programme in nineteen ninety two after the German minister started questioning its future clearly had a direct bearing on that because many of the equipment suppliers, particularly those in Germany, suddenly began to think hey this programme is not going anywhere, why should we invest a lot of effort and and money into it and they slowed down so that has had a knock on effect in in terms of delaying the total programme and erm the result of all of that has been that the current development programme schedule which we have supplied to the committee is probably about as fast as the programme is capable of running. +First flight still going to be in April? +We are confident it will be in April, yes. +And will that aircraft be less capable in its first flight than you'd originally hoped? +Erm it has always been planned that the this er release of the flight control system, will be phased through five steps and the capabilities at first flight are more or less what we had been planning er right from the outset. +The cost is going to be some three thousand four hundred million I think to er to the U K. That's er gone up by about thirteen percent, four hundred million roughly, er over the original estimates, half of that is due to programme re-orientation because of the extension of the programme by two years as I understand it. +Can you spell out what those costs are and are we having to pay more because Germany wants to slow the programme down? +Perhaps I can ask Mr Perry to er fill in the details on costs? +Yes. +Erm Mr Trotter er that er apportionment of the four hundred and fifty million between er the effect of programme re-orientation and other factors. +Can I just say that I had figured four hundred million, it is in fact four fifty. +Four fifty million sorry. +Four fifty million, erm between programme re-orientation and other factors was an apportionment we made back in the er first half of nineteen ninety three and in the light of later information I think we would revise that now erm we are still negotiating with the contractors on the revised contract price and we do not have definitive costs yet but in fact the cost increase as a result of the rescheduling of the programme directly should be quite modest. +There are some unavoidable costs er on that count, particularly on the engine programme where delays to the aircraft programme which results in extra costs on the engine side are the customer's liability. +Erm, but the main increase in cost is actually in the equipment area and results I think from the fact that the equipment prices turned out to be higher than was originally estimated at the start of the programme and also the fact that U K industry won a higher work share on equipment than we had originally been entitled to and budgeted for and lastly the point you mentioned that Germany has withdrawn from some parts of the requirement and that made certain equipments non common and we have had to take a larger share of the cost of those equipments than originally planned. +Okay, can you spell out how our share of the cost has increased because our share of the work has increase. +I thought that presumably the bill was still divided proportionately between the countries. +No the, the bills are met by er on the territorial funding basis so basically we pay for the work done in the U K. +From which we will get the benefit presumably when production starts. +In in in in er general terms, whether the production work sharing is. + +It is carried. +those in favour. +Aye. +Those against. +No. +The ayes have it. +Item six to report social services committee Mr +Then you turn your attention away in a minute and the rotten devils do +Chairman, I I move that the report of the social services committee regarding the future of the county council's old persons homes be noted. +I hope Chairman that er David will listen to the arguments on this because like other members of his group he throws out closure of elderly persons homes, y'know we've gotta do it, we've gotta do it something about which he knows absolutely nothing and about which he's completely wrong. +erm I've always believed that consistency is an overrated virtue so I'm not gonna criticise the Conservatives for changing their minds but you have to ask yourself why is this recorded on the agenda today when the sub-committee, planning sub- committee has already met and discussed these matters and things have moved on a little further Well we we really have to look at how the resolution in this paragraph came about in the first place. +erm At the beginning of the social services committee meeting Mr moved a resolution which he previously moved at the social services planning sub-committee which listed most of the things which are presently in the the resolution but it started the social services accept the implication of the director of social services report on the future of the department's elderly person's homes erm, after some minutes of debate the er Democrats asked if the Tories would remove that phrase from the resolution and then tha the Democrats, the Liberal Democrats would vote for it the Tories of course er looking gift horses in the mouth as usual, said no and the the that resolution was lost. +We then voted on a lengthy Liberal resolution er, it was amended by Labour we voted on all of the separate points in the resolution, all were agreed and then Professor decided that he wanted to move a further amendment which after some consultation, some discussion with the legal people about it's validity, he did which wiped out all of the things that we'd just agreed and we turned to the original Conservative motion minus the beginning phrase and with a couple of things stuck on at the end and we thought well that's it the Conservatives will vote for that, but no although it was their own motion in all but name, the Conservatives wouldn't vote for that unless Mr was allowed to move it. +So he did. +So he did and it was voted on and it was agreed. +We spent Chairman, two and a half hours discussing this matter at that point and we had come full circle back to point 1. +To get back to that beginning phrase the social services committee accepts the implications of the director of social services report on the future of the departments E P H's. +That report predicted a rise from five hundred to nine hundred er in the vacancies in in homes by nineteen ninety six. +Since then at the planning sub-committee Mr has produced a whole load of new made-up figures which pretend that the situation is far worse than that. +Figures designed to get headlines not make headway. +The figures actually which I got from the director yesterday are that the department is counting four hundred and ten vacancies of those four hundred and ten, two hundred and thirty four are out of commission, they're in homes being refurbished seventy two are in blocked places, that is double rooms being lived in by a widow or widower where er they'd previously shared it with the spouse or er disability reasons, health reasons, behaviour reasons of a resident er in a previously shared room. +Purposes like that er which take out seventy two places. +In fact as of the first of this month, the number of real vacancies was a hundred and four now today I've received another list of er so called vacancies from the Leicestershire South area. +As of the thirteenth of the ninth ninety three I'll just read through one or two of these. +Curtis Weston, no vacancies, one short stay vacancy. +Demontfort, no vacancies. +Endaby, two double rooms being used at single occupancy for Lental House residents, one shared female bed available. +So on and so on in Leicestershire South ten vacancies, seven short stay vacancies. +So you can see Chairman the facts and figures simply do not support either the report which came to the social services committee originally or Mr inflated figures. +The true vacancies are a hundred and four across thirty eight homes, we're talking about two or three real vacancies per home. +So Mr talked in the debate about internal reorganisation about continuing to provide services for which there is an over provision and it berated me and the Labour group for that. +Well the figures show that assessments of the over provision are incorrect but even had they been correct if circumstances were an over provision comes about not because of an increase in our provision of services, but because of expansion in the private sector. +Are we supposed simply to abdicate our responsibility and for every new place that's started in the private sector, we close down a place in our er organisation. +Is that what this is about, that places can continue to spring up in the private sector and we must close our homes in order to meet that demand not from elderly people for places but from the private sector for profits. +Placements, April to August a hundred and fifty nine in nursing homes, two hundred and eight in residential homes in all sectors. +But, we know that April was a low figure, we also know that July and August are low a figure which comes out from this graph and was given to me by the director yesterday, is a genuine average which is turning out to be between a hundred and a hundred and ten placements per month twelve hundred to fourteen hundred placements per year a thr over a three year average residency period three thousand six hundred to four thousand two hundred placements in residential care, where then is the real problem. +The problem is with the fact that seventy five to eighty percent of people are being directed towards the private sector and only twenty to twenty five percent towards the public sector, yet still the private sectors squeal. +I've got here a copy of a letter by Peter spokesperson for care, a more misnamed organisation you couldn't wish to come across, a combined association of residential establishments. +A letter to G P s. +Dear doctor,we have noticed that as a result of a press article, copy enclosed, that there's been concern stressed by a number of general practitioners with regards the slowness of the social services controlled community care programme as an association on behalf of our residential and nursing home members we have been stating the same fact to social services who have basically denied the existence of any problem, although we hope that in the long term the social services will be able refine their system to be more efficient, as an interim measure we are offering you a direct line service. +If you wish to effect a placement in a residential or nursing home we hope for the time being it will help resolve your problem. +This is an attempt to circumvent the assessment process. +They cannot of course do that, this letter described by the director of social services as a disgrace. +No, people sitting across in the other benches saying of course they can are wrong. +Of course they can't. +People may put themselves into residential care if they wish they will pay the whole of the bill. +If they wish to be assessed as needing residential care and using public money then they have to go through the assessment process and be assessed as needing residential care. +So this letter which refers to our processes in this county council, it's talking about people who want to go into residential care and to use public money. +All of that being said and Mr will talk a bit more about the figures when he comes to speak. +People will no doubt be relieved to hear what has finally been included in the planning sub-committee resolutions. +That homes already furbished or in the process of being refurbished or identified for refurbishment shall not be closed and will re-open as county council E P H s. +That reassurance is essential to residents, staff and to the community. +That's what they desperately want to hear. +We have also decided that we will look again at the costs of refurbishment. +That we will seek to refurbish the homes which will cost least to refurbish, first. +That way we will achieve more in the period and for the money that is available. +That will leave us, presumably at the end of this process with some of the worst homes, which we will then have to decide what to do about. +So although the Labour group will be moving a reference back of this matter as an amendment. +I have to say that our input into what is going on is still very strong. +We are still attempting to persuade people that the figures they have been given or have invented are wrong and if we operate on the real figures there is no reason for mass closures of elderly persons homes and we are still attempting to make the refurbishment programme work as best we can to achieve the most we can in the shortest period and for the least money. +Chairman I move formally. +Seconder. +Sec +Right we have an amendment to be moved by Mr . +I thought you would Chairman, take it later I see a lot of hands up on the other side. +erm The reason why we moved the amendment on this is er Jim been and that has, we started to query the figures I didn't get involved in the all this week and th people like Jim , David loads of my attention and the whole er exercise was a fraud they're all bum figures and when I checked, the figures I have checked here are done by a senior officer when I showed 'im what stuff was being wrong. +apartments and I couldn't believe how they they there there could work up such a system and I'm serious, I I really mean this Mr Chairman, it is serious. +Now what you were doing was, you got the top figure of available beds and you this time, I'm only going for the this paper that is shown to me a an an an and produced some place in in your apartments and it says here, partly vacancies weekend in the first of August. +I was surprised when I found out who the officer, a very capable officers what's done the figures. +But then I was reminded how I thought of a an accountant who was at work what figure was five and five and he said what figures did you have in mind. +So what has happened here I believe, that there was someone told, I don't know who it was was told this is the figure, now you you you're . +I will say that because as, we haven't heard the end by a long way for, of this one. +Jim pointed out that and when I looked at, in the report here, page fifteen, two of your paper and there it says in little letters B, little little two appendix B a during the year, a three year period from June ninety three to October ninety six, the level of occupancy the department's afford. +Vacancies who arise from five seventeen,had a figure of five seventeen, when I looked at this now, how could y , where did they get the figures from this . +Didn't that someone to do the the the homework for them. +So you did, right at the top one as I said two thousand four three four and then the closure of Coulson House in it. +Well I hope there's nobody in Coulson House because it's boarded up and I cannot see how you get a vacant bed in Coulson House and this is this exercise. +So we take that away and then you got the refurbishment programme and now taken away from the refurbishment programme something like two hundred, now where is the if you're refurbishing four homes where is the vacancies when you close the home, you have made the staff the redundant, they go up the road or out wherever they're going to redundancy persons. +You have made 'em red, you have made 'em redundant and you in, in you have and I hope you've had nobody redundant because I've I'd be pleased to go out to those homes and say them come back and I would be pleased to go up to and say you've got your figures wrong because you're saying that nobody's made redundant ooh well I I'm so pleased. +I hope I've been given I hope I be the temporary staff but,those homes are being refurbished, there are no vacant beds in those homes because they are being refurbished. +You are carrying that number forward. +Now if you have a rolling programme and you wanna say we refurbish four at a time, roughly I would say fifty beds in these two hundred, give or take some money because they vary. +That's taken out, must be taken out of the calculation because they're not vacant, you can't get anybody in there, the criteria I say, should be beds available for permanent occupation. +Now you count on that but the next vote then comes in and they're still not available beds are not available in it, and the next four and the next four so you'll have, for years you'll have those out of operation would you like to call it that way and out of production. +Now to weight that and the next one is respite an short stay beds as you mentioned. +Now if you any system you got to have beds for short stay etcetera, you don't count them into whether the those are vacant, because you have to keep some of those vacant in emergencies etcetera so you can't count them. +Well, this is how you got the figures and then you have the temporary absence as Jim pointed out and advance bookings. +I got a higher figure than Jim because I was I can't believe, believe this either th th the officer that, that, that, done this say to the, the, that's the figures that have produced then they're completely wrong and I can tell +Time time time +Time, right, I am moving the amendment the reference back and I'm handing those papers to the Chief Executive and I'm gonna ask the Chief Executive to get someone independent to do this because you can't get away from the numbers that the numbers I've get someone independent I'll ask for that. +You can't get away with a with a fraud like this. +You can't away with er some bum figures like this one, it's not good enough for the members to give, be given wrong information and I and I can tell you this we'll be coming back again and then we would know and where they were getting where they were getting the seventeen homes +Time +Closed right down no is a load of bloody bunkum the whole I move +Have we a seconder? +Have Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman. +For Mr information the vacancies are the difference between the number of beds we maintain and the number of residence we have. +Every bed in that difference has to be paid for with wasted money but in addition the loss of income from that bed has to be found from cuts elsewhere in social services. +I frankly can't deal in the time allowed with what Mr said, I have never heard so many inaccuracies and misconceptions in a speech, it was the most comprehensive political suicide speech I've heard yet in this council. +The truth is Mr Chairman that community care had as it's major objective extending choice, give the chance to stay at home to many people for as long as possible, to eliminated the unwanted percentage of residential placements. +What it's revealed, totally unexpectedly is the vast extent to which inappropriate placements have taken place for many years. +Totally unexpected because frankly no government, no civil service would have given us as much money for residential places as they did if they'd known. +The knumdrum where the people have gone has now been answered because the amount of domiciliary care needed to keep them out of residential places to meet their needs and wishes turns out to be very much less than we expected, on average less than seven hours a week. +This report Mr Chairman is already history which is as Mr has said not to say it doesn't represent progress, it addresses for the first time the historical issues, it starts to address the lessons of the first quarter. +We now know the outcome of the second quarter ignoring today and tomorrow which can bring, can make no major change in the scale of what we face. +Leaving the rest of community care aside, the admissions to our part three E P H s were thirteen in July, twelve in August and in the first twenty eight days of September, just four. +That's less than one placement for every ten homes over the quarter, an average of less than ten in total per month. +We must now fear with good reason that it was the first three months which were not typical. +Late last year I was accused of scaremongering, dismissive speakers rubbished the remarks of the district auditor, not interested in what he was saying. +The only thing I could be safely accused of was understating the problem. +I still commend this report to council as the first real stride along the road we have to take, there's no choice about that. +This stride and those that have followed last week, as recently as last week as Mr said are already miles back along that road. +The s the revolution of social services called for a rolling programme and a rolling review and the amendment Mr is utterly meaningless because the matter will be constantly referred back and further considered by social services whatever the amendment says that's what the original resolution said. +It contains a rolling review precisely so that it should remain a valid basis for whatever tomorrow may bring. +In truth the rolling review has become a running review circumstances are changing with no respect for the committee cycle. +Indeed some of us think we now know what bankers in the republic felt like, if you stand up to make a speech the matter has moved on before you sit down again but I must tell you of the next major problem. +Flowing from that that which social service must face urgently and that is this. +From the low admission rate, the nine hundred thousand in our revenue budget which was shown this year as savings, seven hundred thousand of which was met by fudging community care money in June is now short by three hundred thousand so at the end of this year there will be an overspend or rather a loss of income of three hundred thousand which will show up as a deficit on social services budget for this year. +Next year the full year effect of the revenue budget one point five five million, already two hundred thousand short, the estimated loss of income from reduced placements will now put another eight hundred thousand on that er, so there will be a million next year, so I have to tell you there is a gap of one point three million pounds in the social services budget which we have not yet faced. +Mr Chairman the social services committee and it's sub- committees face many more agonizing d decisions. +Nobody wants to close any bed that is offering a good quality service, that is wanted and being used. +No one can afford to keep open beds that are not being used, not just losing savings but soaking up resources that can only come from cuts in other vital social services. +The social service of this council. +You're on time. +Are controlled and driven by events not by any one party or any parties. +For the sake of our service and their users we must ensure we are not overrun by those events. +Thank you Mr +The support of the whole council now would recognise +Thank you Mr +and gratefully aid that work. +Mr please. +Chairman, I must confess to being erm, to being somewhat pessimistic about this whole er this this whole problem of of the need to refurbish and the need to tackle numbers in our elderly persons homes. +I I listened to Mr speech with some incredulity I must say, but I did listen to what he said and if what he said is true then I I find some of the things disturbing and and er I'd like to see his figures and I I w I I that there have certainly been er two messages coming to the social services committee in in in that case. +I'm pessimistic because I believe that if the council is to tackle what I still believe to be a big problem of the local authority then it cannot really do so without the support of the largest party on this authority and if we have heard erm an honest assessment of their perception of of the case, I I really I really do despair that this council will will get to the bottom of the problem. +Er, we were told by Mr that there is no problem with numbers, remember there are two, there are two things we've got to tackle, one is numbers, two is conditions in our home. +I mean, one's, one's entitled to ask I think if there is no problem, if we only have vacancies of two or three in our elderly persons homes throughout the county wh erm why on earth did the director of the social serv , did the director of social services and his deputy at the meeting on the twenty fifth of August of the social services committee, say that this was the greatest problem which was facing this council. +Why on earth eighteen months ago did the district auditor issue a letter saying that unless the council did something about the situation of numbers and of finance within its elderly persons homes then it would come in and it would require the council to take action. +Why on earth on the twenty fifth of August at the social services committee meeting did Labour put an amendment which accepted that there was a vacancy problem I quote from the Labourer, from from Labour amendment that er we don't agree to closures, fair enough, that's your position. +But that that we ask for an exploration of the feasibility of widening the use of homes into nursing care, very sheltered accommodation, apartment style accommodation etcetera. +Now if there is no problem why on earth do we have to put that sort of that sort of work by officers erm, in, in to action erm, so between the, if I understand Labour's position now Chairman, between the twenty fifth of August and the twenty eighth of September, we have now gone from accepting the problem and seeing how we can solve a number problem to saying that there is no no number problem and that everyone is cooking the books. +I find that quite incredible, if it's true erm if it's true then it's a very serious allegation which Labour is making against the officers in social services department and I imagine that if er, that if those numbers are proven then er I I shall be looking I shall be looking for scalps because I have been, I would have been, so would the Liberal party and so would the Labour party, have been wrongly informed. +I don't believe we have been wrongly informed but that's the logic of the charge which has been made. +I I simply, I simply want er er a direct message from from the programme which is going on Chairman incidentally I I note that Nottinghamshire County Council erm has found a a and the Labour group there has found it necessary to tackle just the same problems erm in elderly persons homes and that I understand that they have a a closure list of seven, now presumably that has been drawn up from a long list of a lot more than seven, say fourteen or fifteen from which they've made their final choice. +I think we're entitled to ask if Nottinghamshire faces those problems, what is peculiar about Leicestershire that it did face those problems but all of a sudden it doesn't face those problems. +I I don't think myself and I still have an open mind and I don't think that the Labour case erm adds up to be perfectly honest. +I simply wanna say two things and that is this that within a month if this scheme is to work I believe that the council or the social services committee must draw up a long list of homes which it proposes to close and that long list will be in teams and that must be done not behind closed doors so that people know what is being proposed, we level with people who live in those institutions and they are fully acquainted with our, with our intentions and secondly I think it's necessary to understand from this programme that it is not just refurbishment programme, it is a refurbishment and closure programme the simple equation being that the money that comes from closures from capital receipts and some revenue savings, actually goes into the rest to refurbish them. +That is the scheme er as as I see it and unless, unless I I thi , unless that is progressed quickly then as I say I am extremely pessimistic and let me just say Chairman the dangers of not going along that line the dangers of the present scheme which was at the last planning committee meeting or or or was it one of the social services committee anyway, where four were chosen or or it was said choose a small number. +That I think is half a programme and while that might erm while that might appeal to er members of the Liberal party, half a cake's better than none. +What I think the danger is there, from a Conservative political perspective, is that having, having, Liberals having with us if you like, got the principle through, Liberals may then go with the Labour party and say right we've got the principle through, we've identified four homes, let's have a refurbishment programme, a bit of airport money here, a bit of slippage there and we'll get this through and then we'll tackle the problem of closures and if closures is proving difficult let's ignore it for a year, let's do these four and let's go on. +I would not recommend to this side that they have any truck with that particular perspective. +Here, here. +Erm, that is why I I b , that is why I'm against the amendment, I believe that decisions have been made. +I still n , I still think that we need to make er quick pro progress Chairman but er unless we do make quick progress and unless we do understand what's going on and call a spade a spade then I think this programme is doomed. +Thank you. +Mrs +Thank you Chair. +Mr asked why we should close our homes and let private homes profit erm, if people choose either to go into the private sector or to stay into their own homes, what are we supposed to do tell them they've got no choice but to keep our substandard homes going? +That's quite ridiculous. +He says seventy to seventy five percent are being directed towards the private sector so why. +I thought our social services people did that if they run that why should they direct people away from their own livelihoods. +That's quite ludicrous, why should they shoot themselves in the foot and is Mr seriously suggesting the same thing? +I mean apart from a monstrous attack on our own officers who can't answer for themselves in this place. +Why should they be prejudicing the the jobs of the their colleagues, I, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. +Now I think the tables speak for themselves and they're born out by paragraph sixteen B of the report on page fifty nine. +I just wonder when Mr asks for other figures from the independent sector what would have happened if the figures that you've got before you today had actually come from the private sector. +I suspect he would have been making exactly the same speech but saying that the figures were suspect because they had been come from somewhere else. +Thank you. +Mrs +Thank you Chairman. +I re do regret that this has come to full council yet again because I thought we'd already had the debate. +At the social services planning committee we stated that we were anxious to make a fresh start in addressing the problems of our elderly persons homes. +In the end Chairman,we did reach consensus and I find no difficulty with that. +But our original vision had almost been lost in the unclean political battles which have taken place. +I re-read the speech that I gave in this full council chamber on November the twentieth nineteen ninety one nothing has changed except possibly it has got worse. +What has changed though is the refurbishment programme and I'm not quite sure what Mr was on about about er er the refurbishment programme. +The officers advised us that we could deal with four homes a year. +So that's why we said well let's get on and decide which of the next four homes to be refurbished. +So as that we could have the rolling programme. +No one should ever underestimate the trauma of change on res on residents their relatives and the staff involved, either in the refurbishment programme or in future closers and we have never denied that there will not be closures, we have consistently proposed that there should be. +It's unfortunate that yet again the Mercury got it wrong they stated that we had made a decision to close four homes +unnamed that is not true and I do agree with Mr that when we make a decision to close some homes that they should be named to avoid the terrible indecision which exists at the moment. +I'm sorry Mr has referred to closures in their teens cos this again throws residents and staff into total confusion we're too early in the programme of community care to know how many homes are going to close. +We do know that two or three or four may have to in the foreseeable future. +But without rationalisation Chairman we will not be able to extend those services that we all know that we want to assist people to stay in their own homes. +We've argued for years about meals on wheel service that there should be seven day a week service throughout this authority, we've only got it in the City, we want it throughout the authority. +We will not be able to supply an adequate home care service without the release of the resources that are tied up in our elderly persons homes. +We shall not be able to produce ethnically appropriate services without the necessary finance and nor will we be able to develop new services which are innovative to assist people to stay in their own homes and I'm just going to take one moment to mention one or two Chairman. +Why can't you have a flying warden service if you stay in your own home like in warden assisted accommodation. +I'd love to see a service where somebody could come and knock on your door in the morning and say are you alright and call again in the evening, just as if you were in warden assisted accommodation. +If we have a night sitting service, an elderly person may not have to go in hospital if they are temporarily gone off their legs as sometimes happens. +After tiny U-turns Chairman two by the Tories and one by the Labour group, I do hope that finally we're going to make progress tonight. +Thank you. +Professor . +I was only going to say Chairman I wish people wouldn't band the figures around the council chamber which nobody has seen before therefore can't assess. +The issue here is quite simple, Labour have consistently turned their back on any closures, that's fair enough, so you wouldn't expect them then to produce figures which demonstrate that they're right. +The Conservatives have now the Conservatives have now decided that home closure is the thing and you'd expect them to produce figures to say we've got to have thirteen or whatever number closed. +What the, I believe committees have never had and least of all Mr papers produced on behalf of Mr have never had a serious rigorous objective assessment of the vacancy situation of the future which first of all starts from issue a rolling programme of refurbishments that we haven't really seen sight of the of the implications of that on the number of vacancies. +This has never had it so this as far as I'm concerned really, the only thing that is needs to be made clear, is that we must accept of principle that's all we need to reason. +Mr . +Chairman I think this is probably the first time in this council chamber in twenty years that er I will probably have spoken on er social services issues er and I speak from an entirely private capacity and any information that er that comes my way is from what I might call informed members of the public erm, people who I come into contact with and from my own experiences as a ward councillor and from as we all do from time to time, my own family experience, my own domestic experiences and I do know something about the problems which are associated with the the care of elderly people er although I don't have that problem now erm things have taken their course. +Er, Professor is right erm there may always be a possibility that at some time er you have to you have to recognise that there may be excess capacity in the system and I I don't believe that the Labour party is not prepared to recognise that there may well be excess capacity in the system at some time. +S what in fact er Mrs said is too early in the process of community care to know how many homes you have to close she really is approaching it from the wrong way, it's equally too early in the process of community care to know how many homes you need to have open, keep open or open and that is one of the problems which I believe this council and other councils will will face. +Now from my observations of these debates I've not heard anybody on this council saying council debates that there is no role for this local authority or any other local authority there is no role for them in the provision of residential care or any extension of residential care because some of our residential care is getting very, very close to providing a degree of nursing care. +Nobody stands up and says that we shouldn't be in the business at all, we should get rid of all of them, so all the argument about how many. +Every group in this council and I believe every member who speaks, agrees that we have a need to refurbish homes. +So those are the positive things about which we we all agree. +Now I would urge this council that it really is too early in the process for you to start making up your minds about what you're gonna in future. +You simply do not have enough data. +There is a perception amongst informed people in the community that there may well be a shortage of long stay beds in Leicestershire and you do need to bear in mind that the National Health Service is increasingly going down the road of not keeping people in hospitals longer than they have to because hospitals are perceived as being very, a very expensive way of providing beds and you have to take that into account because that's a fairly clear national policy and you are likely to see an acceleration in that process from what I read in the national press. +There's also a general view in the community that community care itself is not necessarily really working very well, there's some fears about it, some uncertainties and a member did mention, it may have been Jim you know or somebody mentioned about the seven hours domiciliary, from my experience as a councillor I am not sure that simply because that figure exists that that means that that is satisfying the need of those people and in any case the sort of people who need to go into residential care, who can no longer be maintained in their home, with whatever help we give them or with whatever help their family have to give them they're not necessarily the sort of people who we're talking about need to go in a home. +You must always remember that it's been a fairly small percentage of the frail elderly people who've actually ever had to go into homes. +Most of the people in some way or other, have been looked after by somebody else and that's the experience which I I've certainly gone through and if in fact you start making up your mind too early about which homes you're going to +Near time +close, I can assure you Chairman recognise the time, I can assure you Chairman that our social workers when doing assessments will not, because I've had this from them, at grass roots level in a branch local party meeting,that our social workers will not indicate to those people who they've assessed that there are vacancies in those homes. +They steer people away from any home which they believe is likely to be closed and once you start doing this, you will in fact be sealing the fate of those homes and you it's a very, very dangerous game, you've gotta be, you've gotta play it very, very carefully indeed and I hope Chairman that there can be a degree of common sense and rationality introduced into discussions between the members of the various groups who have to deal with these very difficult issues. +Thank you. +Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman. +Well I believe that the report that er is before us that has been moved erm actually sets out a framework which the social service committee is able to work to and to monitor and I see no point whatsoever in referring this back to social services erm to delay further what is the inevitable. +The figures that have been mentioned er and the danger with figures that are mentioned is that they can't be everything to everybody. +Now eighteen months ago we had three hundred and, it was April, the report in April nineteen ninety two there were three hundred and sixty five I think it was places that were vacant in our homes and this is before we started the refurbishment. +Now if Jim is telling us that there are four hundred and ten vacancies now and he's explained where those four hundred and ten vacancies are we've picked up another fifty p places within that eighteen months. +So we do have a problem to address but the I I like Mr would certainly want some explanation from the director of social services if erm the report that we have before us at the planning sub-committee is incorrect because I deal with it said it it be noted that the capacity now exists to arrange for the transfer of residents from four homes to other res residential units as part of the rationalisation programme. +Not part of the refurbishment programme, not the difference. +So we do have a problem and and we need to grasp that the a conclusion talking about rolling programme we are concerned about resources we're, we're, we're concerned about using them to the best advantage. +We set up to be able to look at the refurbishment of our homes. +Now if we are going to say that this rolling programme, we we don't mean this rolling programme because it it's all going back to committees again to be to be looked at then we are putting our at a disadvantage they will disband and the cost to us for refurbishment will increase. +It's essential that in the terms of the er report from the social service committee that we work, we work to the framework within that report. +We have the ability to monitor it and I think that the discussions will have to take place as the director brings forward his proposals. +There is a great deal within that framework er, it's not just about closing elderly persons homes, it's not just about refurbishment it's about resources and it's resources that we're very short of, to implement the sort of care programme that this council should be addressing. +Thank you. +Er, Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman. +As I, as I said earlier the new boy, the rather elderly new boy but I can assure the Professor if I were a hundred years old I'd still be younger than 'im. +That's how I look at life. +Now I +I wondered whether you'd ever get it or not, come on quick quick. +Now what we'll be Mr Chairman is this. +This has been hanging about for a long, long time while I've been on this and these people and they're very special people I've got this sword of hanging over my head. +Now these, why do I call these special people, for the first thing we're just coming out of a recession they s +With three million unemployed +These people suffered the depression and if you saw deprivation that was deprivation. +There were no giros in them days. +I beg your pardon. +Now they went into war, they came out of this war the weren't, there was no tip of the glory for them. +There was fourteen feet of snow floods but the main thing about these people, they took their jackets off and got stuck in and they became special people because they laid the foundation of the welfare state that everybody else in this room g gained out of. +They got the jackets off, they did the job, they laid it out for us. +Now surely we owe these people something better than this surely there's got the wickedness out or the intelligence to get this thing off the ground. +If we've got to close homes, let's close them but make sure the homes that's left are warm welcoming and give these people the dignity and the independence to which they are entitled to which they've earned and which they thoroughly deserve. +Here, here. +Thank you. +Mr do you want to speak or reserve your remark. +Yeah, I think some of the new members should wait to speak Chair. +Chair, sorry right, I I've I I've don't very often. +It's gone, it's gone I don't very often agree with Professor erm I very often don't agree with David either but I've got to admit that I agree with both of them today, we've got to make haste slowly on this one. +It's alright us starting to go along the road of closures, but some of us have been here through it a lot, little bit longer than others and I think we have got to watch what we're doing. +We don't know what the capacity is gonna be needed in the future. +If the government gets its way and starts slapping seventeen and a half percent, twenty percent V A T on fuel, we might need some more residential places you don't know. +If the figures that we've been given the recent figures, cos w I've been working on figures for August up to August but now we've got even better figures. +If these figures are right that we've been given by the department and I'm not saying them whether they're right or whether they're wrong but well we have to r rely on what we're getting this is why Mr is sending this lot to the Chief Executive for him to do some work I think it's very important that it is done independently, not by the independent sector but by done independently. +If those figures are right of four hundred and ten now you don't need to be a real big mathematician, even at this time of night,but you, if you have the two hundred and thirty four out of commission and you've got to have those cos that's gotta be a rolling programme each four years. +You're gonna have that two hundred odd there rolling over, it's gotta happen until the end of the programme and that is likely to take six, seven, eight years. +You're way about half a century. +That might be the simplest way and if you add that to the seventy two that are out of commission short term beds, holiday beds, which you've got to keep empty anyway. +You've got your three hundred and six. +Now we've been told by, in reports that we've got five, six hundred up to ni , we're gonna have nine hundred vacancies this is Mr +at committee I said that +unclear +Can we, can we come through the Chair +I think it's, it's very interesting that erm the these figures are there. +Now if we're gonna have those sort of figures we're talking about. +What are we basing them on? +I want to see, I'm I mean I saw Mr and erm Mr nodding when Martin said he wanted to give these figures to the Chief Exec and ask him to er get it sorted out. +I think that's right so, we we mustn't even start even thinking about closing beds at the moment. +If we've only got two or three in each home empty, where are the people going to? +I've checked with Demontfort House today. +Ear early before I came over here and they've got no vacancies none none at Demontfort House at all. +We're told, we're told though in the report for Au for August that we've got so many vacancies here, if we look at Nuffield House in the August report there was fourteen, but we're only just refilling it again after closing it. +We're only just refilling it. +Now I don't know where Mr has got some of his figures from but I think we ought to check both our figures and his figures before we start jumping to +Not my figures please . +Erm Mr Chairman on a point of information, the figures he has obtained on my figures are figures in a report issued by the director of social services and I think on a point of information he should acknowledge that they are the figures given by the officers. +Thank you. +They were not supplied +And orders from you, yep. +Now we must keep we must keep be I know people and I'm sure every member in this council chamber knows people that need respite care. +If you don't you're not wal you're walking around with your eyes closed. +I certainly do in my patch. +There are people that we are redirecting, we were re redirecting from Demontfort House at one time, it was denied denied by by officers that it was happening. +Denied by Mrs she had a letter. +But you ask the people that work there, you ask social workers . +That place was gradually being run down like a lot of the other are. +David, near time. +As far as the Nottinghamshire erm thing the reason Notts are having to close it is because the they've been capped haven't they and they've gotta save money. +Now I think this is what's behind all this actually. +Not to do with looking after people at all. +It's to start saving money and give some and give some of this money to their private sector friends. +Once again this is what's happened. +Thank you David, thank you. +So Chair, I will second these resolut , the the amendment. +Mr +Yes, thank you Chair, erm A lot of this debate circles around what we do about community care, I have to tell this council as far as I'm concerned, community care's dead in the water. +Without massive input from central government and local government there is no community care there are people out there not receiving the services they deserve +With no prospect of receiving the services they deserve. +Let's not pretend that we can escape from our responsibility to these old people by pretending that the community will take care of them, that's not the way it's gonna be. +er Mr talked about the figures, I'm convinced that the figures that, that I was given still include Perzon House I'm convinced that those figures were not, have not been taken out erm I don't know who should audit the figures, perhaps the internal audit should audit the figures. +Yes, Yes, here, here. +Mr was completely wrong about the Labour amendment erm in fact he read out the wrong amendment altogether. +The Labour amendment was to explore ways in which resources can be provided to fund and enhance refurbishment programme without closures and that for the next two years the additional necessary funding be sourced from housing benefit income and income from the sale of East Midlands Airport and from other capital receipts. +Now if the Labour group had moved a widening of erm the sort of provision in our elderly persons homes, I could have understood that, because we didn't have real figures, we could not get hold of real figures, every time I went back to a local party meeting, to the Labour group, to any other member they said, do you realise this home has this number of vacancies and your report says that number. +Do you realise that the figures are out that everybody knows that the figures are out. +Is Mr and is er capacity for understatement. +His desire to devastate our residential sector and close seventeen homes will be thwarted somebody over there, it may have been Mr it may not have been, said that there hadn't been any redundancies. +Arbour House twenty four staff, twelve redundancies, twelve redeployed. +Huntingdon Court twenty nine staff, ten redundancies, seventeen redeployed, two still in temporary posts. +The Limes,provisional figures twenty nine ninety three, closing during October, thirty four staff, sixteen redundancies, fifteen redeployed, two ill health retirements, one retirement. +Bythorpe Hall twenty one redundancies, six lay off agreements, two redeployed, one temporary for a year, one on trial period two to three months. +Kurzon House twenty eight staff, seventeen redundancies of which two re since redeployed ten redeployed, one ill health retirement, of course there are no redundancies. +We've not made anyone redundant, no one at all. +That Labour amendment I read out mentioned the airport money. +I'm aware as everybody else is, that we could do the sort of sweepstake that we carry out on th , what time the meeting's gonna close and everybody can just put down how +many times the the airport money had been spent. +But the real fact is if this council regards elderly persons homes as the priority it pretends then it has to be the first priority for that money. +It doesn't have to stand in line behind anything else. +About er refurbishment and closure programme Mr talked about, a a refurbishment and closure programme is a Tory programme, not a Labour programme and of course this is all verified by Mrs coming along to the committee and saying please don't close Barleythorpe Hall, please tell the people that you're going to re-open Barleythorpe Hall, please do not allow them to think that it's going to close. +Has anyone seen Barleythorpe Hall? +Does anyone know what needs to be done there, what the work is and how much it is gonna cost, I'm sure Mrs seen it. +So why are social workers directed people into the private sector, they are under the same constant pressure of letters from the private sector, the wingeing, the groaning, the moaning, the threats of legal action, the threats of judicial review as the rest of us. +Hardly surprising that they over compensate is it put people into the private sector. +I didn't understand her questions was it the figures had come from the private sector I'm not sure if she understood it herself either erm we've talked in the social services planning cuts committee about a list of homes for refurbishment and Mr wanted a very long list er a list which would blight every home not on the list. +Mrs talked about four, we've actually agreed that there should be more homes on the list than four er for prospective refurbishment and Mr has stood up and protested that he did not produce the figures, but Professor still says you will produce figures for this and you will produce figures for that, none of us do that we all get our figures from the same place but we all get inconsistent figures. +erm, Mr knows when he talked about getting rid of all the a ho , our homes that of course, we're not allowed to get rid of all of our homes, if we were the Tories would have moved it years ago. +But what does happen is that people are directed away from blighted homes we know that that happens, it happens all the time, as soon as a home's name is mentioned social workers, quite honourably believe that there's no sense in putting down people's names, no no sense in sending people there and you would expect nothing different from them so it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. +The point to Mr , the point of the reference back is simply to allow us to say that we do not accept the figures that we're being presented with. +We will not accept those figures because they are not correct. +Everybody agrees now that the figures before us are not correct as everybody produces a different set er, it's alright for Mr to sit there and Mr like Heckyl and Jeckyl saying no we don't, no we don't, but he comes forward with different figures, worst figures +than we're presented with in the reports, he does it all the time Chairman. +As for Mr we're out of recession are we?well if that's an excuse for saying let's close homes well, I think that's a a terrible shame, all he, the certainty that he wants to offer to our elderly people is the certainty that their home will close and they'll be thrown out of it. +People really do have to understand the trauma we are talking about with moving people out of homes, the trauma that moving them out for refurbishment is bad enough. +But telling them that they will not move back is even worse. +We really do have to put a human face onto these figures and these financial arguments, until we do that, we will not carry any decision in this council chamber which is worth a light to any single elderly person in any of our homes or outside of our homes Chairman. +I recommend to you the amendment. +Right, we now put the amendment. +Those in favour please show. +Right, we're just going to count. +right, those against the amendment is lost, thirty six forty, er those in favour of the substantive motion please say aye. +Aye. +Those against. +No. +The ayes have it. +We will now have a fifteen minute recess. +Six D the report of public protection committee. +Yes, I've just counted them, Robert counts as two, Bob +that's important you see right . +That's promotion in the Labour rank would you like to move the motion please Mr . +Would you prepare to move the motion please. +Yes, sorry Mr Chairman erm I move, what'm I doing? +I move in the er public protection report that er Mr Chairman, the bell's still going do you want me to hang on a minute or what? +No carry on, I, the first bell there they should have been in. +Carry on. +But people are gonna miss my blooming speech they'll miss it. +I know you spent hours, I know you spent hours preparing this speech. +I haven't actually. +The important ones are here, proceed please. +I've prepared the amendment in the in in removing the port er Mr Chairman I think it's erm important to note the reason why the public protection committee have asked the report to be put onto the council agenda. +Not simply because we also want to put our bid in straightaway for the airport money which is er contrary to opinion +had been noted. +but to highlight to members of the council the importance of having the proper funding er er for the southern fire station. +The reasons for the southern fire station are clearly outlined on page seventy and seventy one which is an extract from her Majesty's fire service inspectorate. +In particular item eleven point three of that where the H M I said sufficient capital should be provided to enable the provision of the southern fire station to go ahead. +There is a large area of new build around where the southern fire station will be and I do say will be because it will be. +That sounded, that sounded er, sounded quite good +A promise and er one of the im important things er is that the Chief Fire Officer is currently away in Glasgow at the Fire Service conference, as you're well aware. +But I spoke with Mr about half an hour ago on the telephone, told him not to worry at all, that +that's confidence. +This evening Bob will be changing his amendment to read the funds will be provided rather than consideration. +And the Chief said that doesn't compare he said that does not concur with a visit I had last night in Glasgow whilst asleep when he awoke to a gleaming light at his bedroom and he said who are you and this figure said I am God and the Chief Fire Officer said well God, all I want to know is one thing, will I get my southern fire station? +And God said not in my lifetime. +Cos I've since spoke to God Mr Chairman. +and he is, as you do, as you do, and he assures me that er we will get the fire station. +I don't wish to underestimate it the, our attendance times around the Meridian Park area, the large new build area Mr Chairman erm, our attendance times there are shocking to say the least. +No fault of our brigade at all, there's a desperate need for the southern fire station to go ahead without any doubt whatsoever, lives are at risk and the longer we leave this the more the costs will keep increasing and er I I believe that the airport money should be used to build +Another one now, it's all gone now +Owen, it's not spent yet. +Trust me. +Trust me I said not truss me, trust me. +We have one of the best fire services and the best brigades in this country Mr Chairman and you none the least Mr Chairman on some of you recent visits and meeting some of our fire personnel are more than aware we are the the best equipped, the cheapest brigade and our chaps and girls in Leicestershire, the morale is very high, regardless of what's going on around the pay dispute at the moment and I think that we need to show our support to those fire personnel and provide the adequate funding for the southern fire station. +I'm assured by Tommy that after I open the Saw Valley Way er traffic jam on November the third, you you'll get a slight better erm, slightly better chance traffic through, er. +Have we a seconder? +Have you reserved any remarks, you want er Mrs do you wish to speak? +I sorry, sorry. +We'll have the amendment first shall we? +Yes, let's have the amendment. +We have an amendment by Mr . +I only did that just to test to see if you were awake. +I think er in an effort to accommodate Mr Chairman, the members here this evening, it's been quite a long day, the the Conservative amendment is very close to the amendment that both er myself and Mr have put in and yes we would be willing to accept that, I think we've got the point across which the only thing missing from the Conservative amendment is the thing about the airport money. +I think I've made that point +Will you accept this subject in the raffle? +Chairman all I've heard so far is music to my ears er thank you. +I'd like to er say one or two words before er moving the amendment and I, I'm very pleased to to hear that the two are to be incorporated as it were into this one. +Members of the public protection committee take due note of the contents of Her Majesty's Inspector's current report, but in particular we take note of his concerns that the standard of fire cover in an area to the South West of the city is inadequate. +He's repeated his concern to us regularly for eight years eight years. +I've no difficulty in seeing why he's concerned er because I've seen the figures and examine the situation in in great detail. +But even without the figures it takes very little imagination to see why this council must not put off any longer the construction and commissioning of the southern fire station. +Imagine with me Chairman if you will the thoughts of someone trapped by some misfortune in the midst of the wreckage of a road traffic accident on the M 1 motorway Southbound between junctions twenty one and twenty that's at Nutterworth or Northbound between twenty one and twenty two or Westbound on the M 69 they'll be thinking the fire brigade'll be here in a minute or two. +Certainly the first appliance will arrive but on the opposite carriageway because it's coming from Nutterworth or Hinkley or Colvill severely hampering what that appliance crew can do speedily. +It's unlikely that they will imagine that the most helpful appliance is most likely to be one of three, battling to get through the traffic from new parts of Leicester, Lancaster Place Leicester and Wigstone. +Three because the Chief Fire Officer cannot guarantee any longer er that if he only despatched the one which is necessary, it would actually get through the traffic. +Similarly in the vast residential and commercial areas of Enderby, Norborough, Homkirk, Cosby, Watchton Croft, parts of Broadstone and Meridian itself the delays have become unacceptable. +This area is the furthest such populated area from a fire station in the county. +I have witnessed myself the effects of the delays on a number of occasions. +Within the past year a small fire in a large Victorian house only fifty yards from my workplace watching helplessly while the building became engulfed before the brigade arrived from Leicester and Wigstone, five and six miles distance distant. +Minutes matter, we all know this because of regular news reports, videos and demonstrations to the committee. +I know because many years ago I happened to be in the right place, in the ambulance I was driving at the right time and was able to e effect a rescue of an old woman from her smoke filled house at Burstill Ten minutes later I could not have done it because of the smoke. +The fire brigade arriving five minutes later might have done it, ten minutes, definitely not. +The Chief Fire Officer advises us that the attendance times to the areas I have mentioned are regularly over the response times allowed by the standards of fire cover. +He tells me that attendances between three and five minutes, over the ten minutes allowed are common. +Five, six, seven, eight minutes are understandable and acceptable lives are regularly saved in that time. +More than the ten minutes allowed is no longer acceptable to the inspector or to the many thousands of people who live and work in a large and congested area of Leicestershire. +Southern fire station will not only direct cover directly cover these areas but also provide essential back up cover to a much larger area including Glaby, Wigstone, Nutterworth, Hinkley and parts of the City. +It is pleasing that there is a large degree of support for the Southern fire station as I said it was music to my ears. +This has been expressed by the acquisition of land by this council at Meridian and by placing the scheme in the capital programme as a high priority. +At our last meeting the council noted during question time that Mr and I agree that the saving of life from fire is an overriding priority for this council. +I therefore urge members to agree on by whatever mechanism the financial experts deem proper, I'll say no more than that, er to place Southern fire station firmly in the capital programme for next year and ensure revenue monies are available to enable its swift and essential opening. +With all sincerity er Mr Chairman on behalf of the people who live and work in that area I move the amendment. +Mrs +Mr . +Yes, thank you Chairman. +I find this +Just a minute, can you hold just a moment er just a minute +Can I just make it clear Chairman on the amendment. +As I understand the position Mr and Mrs and the council have accepted that amendment so you've now got that as your motion with your debate. +I am pleased to hear that Sir. +Chairman it makes the whole thing far simpler I think because there isn't really no disagreement about this whatsoever. +I've read about Mr help line, I didn't realise he had a direct connection to the almighty but he's obviously got his instructions and erm we are very pleased that he's going along the right lines. +Now this really is one of the most important things on the agenda today. +It is far more important in my view than a token ban on fox hunting on which we spent hours earlier on in the afternoon. +This is the kind of thing that we really ought to be addressing because this actually addresses the safety of people in this county, not only the safety of people, this addresses the safety of property as well and there's no disagreement about the fact that this enormous development that's happened over the last few years in an area where you've got a regular traffic snarl-ups mean that you have got a potential disaster there on your hands and we're jolly lucky we haven't any more serious incidents than we've had already and so I can see no reason why these two mo these two amendments shouldn't both happily be accepted though I'm very cynical about the number of times we've spent the airport money already and sooner or later we've obviously got to actually seriously address that but the important thing is that we do all take it seriously and it seems that we all do now take it seriously. +That what the inspector's been telling us year after year, that we are in serious danger of not coming up to the protection safety standards, is something that we can't push into the background any longer and I'm very glad it's come to the full council so that the whole council can take it seriously the public protection committee has taken it seriously for a very long time. +Mr . +Mr Chairman, I I welcome this opportunity er of of saying just a very brief word about fire service because as a new member I think one of the services that this county has er er is top in is the fire service. +It has impressed but it has to have the right tools if it is going to provide the safety that councillor referred to and the saving of life which was referred to by councillor . +I welcome too that the Labour party have accepted the amendment. +We now have a a piece of land which we can't use for fox hunting, so let's use it for the purpose it was bought for, use it for the fire station. +But why I am pleased that this has been, that the amendment has been accepted is because of the words and that projection's been made of the eventual revenue requirements to enable proper future provision to be budgeted for. +It is very important this is done, we can join the raffle for the East Midlands airport and I'll tell you this I will help you pick out the winning ticket er but we cannot use the East Midlands airport money for revenue to run the stations. +To often we have heard of buildings that have been put under capital expenditure and then the revenue has not been available for their use. +I think we must make it a positive step forward that this council not only goes forwards to build but it goes forward to use that building and give the firemen of this county the right tools, or firewoman, the firemen and the firewoman of this county the right tools to work with. +Thank you. +Mr +I suppose I'm the er ghost at the feast. +First of all I that at no time have the Labour, the Liberal and the Conservative not been totally in favour of this fire station. +They were last year, they gave an undertaking to do it as soon as possible, it is a case of where the money comes from er Mr of course is relatively new er we don't bother about as a rule about what he casts as new costs in new staff. +We just passed the revenue, the capital, the revenue then goes on the base budget, is called the revenue consequence of capital expenditure and all the fire officers ask for is enough to build a fire station and the cost of running it is automatically going onto your bill. +Now somewhere we've gotta sort this out, because this is part of last year. +Figures may be updated I seem to remember the fire station somewhere in the region of a million plus and the cost of running it was three hundred thousand a year. +Now both of these costs were fine, if this is your priority it's alright. +I hope you'll pick out what's got to come from the East Midlands National airport, can I remind you that a list of that has already been made and passed by this council when there was not a Conservative majority and that had on it about seventy traffic calming schemes bottlenecks'll be done all over this county which in themselves save accidents and save lives. +Now er there are some areas based in my area where you wouldn't get the fire station, the fire engine through the bottleneck in ten minutes erm, all this has got to be put in its relative priority. +Now as long as this is council budget if this is what you prefer rather than Dovelands school that's alright, this is the problem that the financial committee will be faced with this year. +Urgent demand for which I totally agree for millions more than the money is available er, as long as all the council says this is our priority of course you can have it. +As long as you're answerable for the other priorities that can't be met. +I'm totally in support of this, I'm support of a lot,want to be done. +As long as we accept that there is a limit to what can be done and that in no way's detracted from fire station. +I'm delighted fire station's run at a low cost. +Members here sometimes were almost ashamed of the fact. +There's also want more money to cheapest in the country and I say good and I hope we can fit it in this budget time and I hope we all support this, for this. +I hope when the financial sub-committee suggests the capital expenditure one isn't there. +You will carry back to your electorate and tell them why it wasn't there. +Do you want Dovelands put back?cos Dovelands didn't come on this year either and this is a a dilemma that will face us all. +I'm delighted it it's a Conservative erm er resol er erm amendment that I think is agreed by all the council. +That all agree this is a very high priority. +Next February will you still live with that priority. +Well we will, you might not. +Thank you for putting some life in the proceedings Jim. +Mr . +In short all I hope that er this unanimous er feeling for the fire service stays in this next pending dispute. +I hope you still support firemen through their troubled times in the next few months. +Thank you Chair. +Right Mr you want to reply like to reply. +Thank you very much Mr Chairman. +Very quickly erm er the Mrs said that er yes I do have a direct er line to God and one of the messages he did give me was that I should start to write Focus. +Perhaps we could er +I thought God was writing that +Very constructive er Mr . +Mr erm er we've actually got the land for the er the fire station, I think you you were there with us. +Well it can't be used for fox hunting now. +That's true. +erm, it's actually sitting there on the Meridian er Business Park, it's been sitting there for three years er overgrown with er grass and what have you and it's there. +Mr just very quickly erm I disagree with your analogy about the ghost but probably the rest of it, I'm not too sure erm the figures for the running of the fire station have been updated. +It's no longer three hundred thousand pounds, the Chief Fire Officer and the Deputy Chief Fire Officer along with the er, the finance wizard David, have worked very very hard on er producing revised figures, scrimping and scraping equipment from other stations and the the actual figure is about a hundred and sixty four thousand pounds now. +We brought the figure down having at le , and waited two years and that's th , I think that proves the lad's foundation to the argument of how desperate the fire service need, need this station and it has absolutely nothing to do with Dovelands school er er whatsoever as far as I'm concerned, I'm the spokesperson for public protection not education and that's it and er I'm surprised er er that I know erm er er that Mr is is a very, very good supporter of the er southern fire station and supported us in the er in the er question we asked at the last council er meeting and er I'm surprised he hasn't spoke or even Mr who er, who likes to s , who likes to speak in the chamber but I've hasn't supported the fire station. +Thank you very much. +Would those in favour of the amendment I'm very sorry but er it's not an automatic right, sorry, I'd like to have called him but er we've summed up, what do we do now? +We have re, technically reached the end of the debate I'm very sorry Mr I'm sorry you'll have to wave a little I'm very sorry er, those in favour of the ame amendment. +It's an amended motion +The amended motion please show. +So that's subject to Robert getting confirmation on Sunday then. +Er I wish to move that the er motion which is on the green order paper. +I do draw member's er an an in particular Mr attention to paragraphs seven and eight of the report. +Paragraph seven making it clear put that an initial assessment has already established er it has already passed the preliminary assessment stage er and that er the director is undertaking the data collection procedure so that the site can be properly assessed and I do drawn er Mr attention er to that I erm have taken the opportunity during the last adjournment Chairman to to speak to Mr about the appropriateness of the wording of his er er amendment and I believe that he he may wish to er move something which is slightly different er which will certainly er we'll deal with that er if he does move that but er it clearly is the intention of this report and of the committee that when the work has been completed on the assessment of traffic calming measure in Shalford and its priority established, that we would then bring er another report er to the highways and transportation committee in response to this petition er as as indeed is set out in paragraph ten B and if Mr wished that to be brought forward through to council then that will be done but I leave to him if he wish to move an amendment to make it quite clear, since er I must say this motion is rather bland. +Mr +Seconded Chair, reserve my remarks. +Can I, I would like to change the wording of the er amendment and I'm grateful to Mr for the advice he gave because I think by erm a slightly shorter and er er brisker wording I can achieve the objectives that I set out to achieve. +If if if we if I withdraw the amendment in in terms that's on the order paper and substitute after the, after the erm, wording where it goes traffic calming measures on the B forty one at Charnford and add on and that a further report be presented on traffic calming measures in response to the petition. +If that could be added that would achieve my objectives and we can all get on to the debate about V A T on. +Is that acceptable? +. +Thank you. +Agenda item seven. +Confirmation of minutes of committees and sub committees. +I move that the minutes of meetings of committees and sub-committees in sofar as they require confirmation be confirmed by the council, Except with regard to any matters still under consideration. +For upon which a committee proposes hereafter to report to the council. +All agreed. +Agreed. +Appointment, agenda item eight, appointments in accordance no appointments, all agreed. +Agenda item number nine, notice of motion, notice of motion by Mr , Mr . +Thank you Mr Chairman. +As you know it, this is the last I'm sure everyone's aware it's the last item on your agenda when I was looking at the agenda this item was before the fox hunting motion I thought well it'd be nice to have a debate before the fox hunting motion because we would have er a full house of people who I'm sure would be very interested to hear the discussion on V A T. As matter of fact I'm sure they would w w would welcome the opportunity to have a de , a discussion, but it seems they have gone and I got, I got it wrong Chairman when you by taking the the the fox hunting motion it should really have, have held on till this time in the evening. +Er I and the council will recall the last time we had a motion on V A T when we asked. +the last council. +The last council yes and why not and this council and we haven't heard the end of it yet, well I'll be coming to that bit don't rush, don't rush me We did ask the Secretary of State not to impose V A T on fuel and light because of the hardship it would impose on the people and in particular elderly pensioners, sick and invalids. +We wrote to the Secretary of State after you passed that motion so it appears from the correspondence we have back from the Secretary of State that they are bloody minded on this one and they're going to, he's going to support, press on with the imposition of V A T and since that time we we see he's well supported by the cabinet. +Now the the motion's expressing concern over the government's intention. +when we got the letters back from the Secretary of State one of his excuses if you like, for imposing such a savage tax was that it was save fuel and help the environment. +Now there's no mention of the human unhappiness by the imposition of the V A T and what this w w would, the concern no concern whatsoever about this savage tax. +Now when the Chancellor in the budget said that he would help the poor he stopped short, there were no copper bottomed no copper bottom guarantee and then later on we had Michael Portillo got in on the act. +Now Michael Portillo is one of the Tory high flyers, for anyone that don't know who he is, he's a Tory high flyer who finds it very difficult to look down, very difficult to look down on those but he should look down before he makes a such statements. +Michael said there would be no special compensation so you can imagine why we're concerned and why we have this back on the as a motion again. +A motion to monitor the effects it will have on people that we are responsible for. +So really it's only right that this council should follow up on such a motion. +Because things are looking fairly bleak for pensions, disable etcetera. +Looking at the report and using the present criteria for increase in pensions and these are the figures that I didn't produce but er they look pretty bleak as I said because what the pensions can expect next year will be eighty four P for single pensioners and one twenty eight in that area for a couple and then we had look at we have some concern of what happened yesterday in a statement by the Chancellor of the Exchequer who said he is going to extend V A T and also it has now been that instead of putting on half of it in nineteen ninety four he put the full pile at seventeen and a half percent in nineteen ninety four because what was being saved is that if he's leave the other half to nineteen ninety five it'll be round near the elections and er there could be some difficulty. +I was hoping there would and I will still hope because there's not for the political reas , I would hope that that the minister would not a U-turn, the Chancellor would do a U-turn on this one. +Because I can, I'm surprised that the Tory party's . +It'll haunt the Tory party for years. +It'll be a bigger bone than a bigger bone than ever the poll tax was. +Now you say well why do a U-turn I see no reason why because they done a few U-turns on the child benefit they done a U-turn, they picked it up and then blocked it. +Charging pensioners and children for medical prescriptions picked that one up and dropped it like a hot potato and charging for hospital treatment and why so why not do a U-turn on on this one? +We must think Jim of those people as I said that we are responsible for. +Our they'll want to forget that the Tories programme and policies, they lied about taxes they promised not to extend V A T they lied about protecting the value of pensions well I hope the people who get the eight four P and the one twenty, the one's that the old dears will remember that because that's what they will be getting. +That's what they will be getting because I can tell this to the Tories, let's be quite honest that with the throw up the the people put their trust in the Tories and I don't think they'll ever do it again. +I hope that we will, I will debate even in this late hour, it's not too late to debate this very important issue and let the people out there know that we are thinking of them, not just about the things that happened early on today but least that we are responsible enough to dis to discuss this motion and to press and press and press again so the government, hoping the government will do a U- turn, if you don't you'll be gone forever. +Thank you Chairman, I move. +Have a seconder. +Seconded seconded Mr Chairman, reserve me remarks thank you. +The serious item of news situ at the moment one day. +Mr . +Mr Chairman er when we discussed this last time er I expressed the view that in fact er the county council had better things to do I've not changed my mind erm since but I have been reminded that er when er the Roman Emperors er found ascension in the ranks when Roman Emperors found ascension in the ranks they provided bread and circuses and I have to say that I regard the two notices of motion which were placed in Mr notably fox hunting and this debate on V A T as bread and circuses. +It could be that er he wishes to distract attention between the interesting arguments going on about one man one vote which I'm pleased to hear that Mr has won. +Well it is remarkable that it's taken until nineteen ninety two for the Labour party to discover that democracy consists in one man one vote rather than somebody holding up holding up a card +saying one and a half million votes. +And and it is also perhaps distracted er attention from the interesting disagreements also taking place at the Labour party conference this week between the one more pushes, if I might describe them and the hard liners who believe you've got to be radical. +Just wait for it. +So having said that I thought that there were more important issues for the council to discuss, I don't think it'd be fair to let this second debate on the subject pass without actually making a few er er a very short erm a few short remarks cos I think we need to be clear about the issues. +There is a need to fund the deficit in public expenditure. +Even that nice Mr Gordon Brown doesn't pretend that a deficit on the public borrowing requirement greater than fifty million is sensible. +Indeed that nice it's interesting to note that that nice Mr Gordon Brown has just rec +Has just recently withdrawn Labour's promise to link pensions with average earnings. +He recognises that there is a funding problem for public expenditure even if Labour members in this chamber don't er and in case the erm er Liberal group is feeling sanctimonious. +They should be aware that Mr beat Mr Brown to the punch and did exactly the same thing a few months ago. +There is a serious question as to how reasonably you should fund the deficit and it is all very well to criticise this suggestion as to how the a gap should filled without making any sensible suggestions of your own and Mr Brown, nice Mr Brown so far +has been singularly silent on the matter. +The second fact issued before us and it's one that I referred to er when we did it, debated this last time is that if members do take seriously the whole question of +Near time +of reduction of er emissions then in fact you have got to reduce the consumption of erm hydrocarbons er as interesting as the Liberal party has said for years but now er pretends it had nothing to do with erm, er V A T on fuel. +One final quick note Chairman, there is no point complaining that there has not been a cop copper bottomed guarantee. +You're on time at the copper bottom. +Mr will find out whether or not there is a copper bottomed guarantee when the budget is announced and until then +Time please +until then +Please Mr please. +his criticisms are entirely er er surplus to requirements. +Mr . +I didn't mind waiting. +Alright, well the rest did. +We have nine speeches including yourself. +On a much more parochial level and I er I have an interest and I am one of these old age pensions that Mr is determined to look after. +Now the system at the moment seems to be er suggested by the government that V A T should go up and those that really need the money will be if not wholly, mainly compensated, they will of course get another rise if the cost of living goes up because their pensions will go up. +Mr is very different we must all be protected, I've worked out my bill as the same as this year because no way shall I spend seventeen and a half percent more money I shall be as careful as I can and I shan't starve and I shan't get cold now I've worked out that the V A T on my fuel bill is eight hundred and eighty five pounds, I'd delighted if Mr could perform the trick and I needn't pay it, on behalf of the Duke of Westminster, the Duke of Rutland, I think I can also thank him. +This is not er protecting that, no old age pensioner should pay these taxes they should pay the taxes unless they're in need and be adequately taken care of. +I must remind you that in Europe that marvellous place with the social contract, hasn't prevented everyone paying tax on on fuel. +I think in Denmark it's twenty percent. +Somehow we are different. +I don't know why we're different except that someone wants to makes some trouble. +If we come into line with Europe,le Europe will soon be putting pressure on us by having a common policy and the policy to save fossil er burning of fossil fuels is international. +The Liberals said it must be done and done quickly the Liberals said it must be done and done quickly, get extra tax on the fossil fuels for the sake of the environment. +If you remember you did say that. +Er it's perf altered a little now because it's not very popular but that's what you've said. +And I'm sure you've had a bit of thought about it, I'm glad you're see it there er and the whole lot is a blessed mismatch, it's nothing to do with us though I do thank you Mr for the help you wish to give me, the Duke of Westminster and the Duke of Rutland if this goes through as I said this today because without a doubt the government will listen to what you have to say and I've no doubt it will be effect. +Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman. +There is a sense of er deja vu about all of this isn't there. +One seems to have heard it all and I'm sure you've heard before that I've, I've to say. +Er, I wondered about this erm this Tory high flyer, about whom er, my friend over there speaks with such admiration and envy, he must have a tremendous influence because I wonder, had he been the mover behind the fact that this V A T on fuel is is there in every other country in Europe including Ireland where it's about eleven percent. +So this Tory high flyer must be a very high flyer indeed. +The truth of the matter is this of course, that Mr might just as well put here any indirect tax, because that's what it's about. +In one sense all indirect taxation is hardly equitable because it falls on the rich and the poor, like the old saying the rain, it raineth every day upon the rich and just and unjust fellow. +But more upon the just because the unjust have the just's umbrella but er this happens all the time. +So there's no budget in picking out the f fuel for it. +You might just as well pick out anything but having done it and taking up, er what Mr mentioned, this question I think it was Mr , about the deficit. +There is a way of course, a classic way in which deficits trad can be absorbed. +You do it by having very high inflation. +That's all is easy, it swallows up an inflation and in fact all those many years ago when there was a a socialist government seems a long since, like a bad dream now doesn't it, but when there was a socialist government, they did just this. +They have high inflation, I might add to you that it had a far far more damaging effect on poor old pensioners, like myself and I'm a war pensioner as well, poor old pensioners t to be serious, old people and people of limited means who are affected far more by the cure, the other cure that the Labour party tried that that was high inflation, mind you I'm sure that they tried it, I think it just happened. +It does with Labour parties +Thank you +Thank you very much, er I can't carry along because you want to stop me, but if I were capable of telling, I'd say my attitude is still the same as it was before. +I'm glad you didn't mention the bank manager's umbrella. +Mr Mr +Than thank you Chair. +Very quickly in, what, what can I say, I mean it's an appalling situation where you have a political party that believes that it can solve all the ills of these the country that it has created in the last twelve years, I hope on the explicit though I tend to think renunciations are fairly clear here, but erm I hope you'll listen. +That, that they have create these ills in the last decade through this, this increase in indirect taxation. +Be bec , the appalling thing is that they're quite, they're quite happy to spread this pain on those who are in the least position to burden it and they believe quite rightly and this, this is the I think, that exists between socialism and and and the Conservatism in that sense that whereas erm, you know opinion surveys bear out the fact that people are quite happy, those who can afford it to pay a little bit extra in terms of direct taxation for those service provisions, which are absolutely vital and these surveys have been conducted in public and they have been made quite er er open to the press, er, just before the last election particularly for the health authority and so forth. +But I mean these, these surveys have indicated that the general public is quite prepared to give that little bit extra through direct t , through direct taxation, well listen, you you guys can't speak much after all there's only thirty one of you and there's thirty seven of us here let's face it. +Er, but the interesting, the interesting thing is that they are prepared to pay and yet this obsession this obsession with this ideology that the only way you can get you can go forward in in terms of er placing this this country in any economic status in the way it may have been and er is is to privatisation of V A T. Chairman I look forward to the day when when the very air and this has been said for that we breathe will either be privatised or more important they'll stick a bloody V A T on it. +But it, isn't it an awful situation when you, when you, when you look at it that evidence indicates that the erm the number of people that are either now elderly infirm or sick and and clearly that they all will have to face this, this, this terrible burden and I cannot understand because there is, this, there is, there is er a total disarray within the Conservative party, that all their er er back bench er MP s are making representations to their erm their leader who possibly may not be a leader tomorrow but as long as he's the leader today, John Major that he should do a rethink and here they are er you know, members of the same party, continuing to support something which is so idiosyncratic that you know it's really beyond belief, er Chairman. +Not idiosyncratic. +I think, well, clearly those people those people who have er those who have some notion of decency and particularly even taking into account the mixed economy that we need to work in will support er the notion that those people who cannot burden this kind of tax should not have to er er should not have to partake. +In actual fact it was mentioned earlier that V A T er could be imposed on fossil fuel but I think any administration . +could clearly make some kind of differentiation between a conglomerate paying V A T or some such tax whereas er the exception could be made to those people who are not clearly in a position to make er er to say that. +Ch Chairman I hope that the motion will get full support. +Thank you. +Er is there a in the house? +I, here he is. +Mr Chairman ladies and gentlemen, how's that. +I wanted to say a word, I know you don't want me to. +. +Thank you, yes they should be but stand up and I'm only trying to help in the situation. +Mr you'll spoi you'll spoil us when I saw this tonight I thought we I gotta say something because Martin is coming up with the er same motion as it was last time, it was not much different so probably with the same reply's gotta be made and that is that the Labour party is not the caring party, everyone here, I'm sure the Liberals as well as the Conservatives care we are a caring party as much as you are and we are concerned, we are concerned about, we are concerned about +the old people and the people that are, are living on low incomes. +I am an old age pensioner, you wouldn't believe that would you? +I've struggled +I know what it's like to struggle to pay . +here, here. +Thank you. +You may think I'm joking I don't go abroad for my holidays, I go to Norfolk. +I can't afford to go on foreign holidays. +Anyway, the point is this that I am going to say as far as I'm concerned I'm gonna put all my maximum ability in making sure that this government stands by its obligation which it gave me when I wrote to the Prime Minister because I was very very concerned that I did not want to see the old people and pensioners who was having difficulty in making ends meet, suffer further and therefore I am with you when it comes to concerning yourself in relation to the O A P's or the pensioners or any one who is suffering because of the s seventeen and o half percent, the maximum is put on. +So, I am looking after their interests. +I don't need the Chief Executive to tell me what's happening because I'm going to be involved in seeing what's happening and as far as the Labour people talking about the cost it's going to create. +You never said that when you were creating the cost, the cost of living which was inflation was soaring up to thirty percent, twice as much as what this bloody V A T will introduce. +You were condemned of people then you couldn't care a damn about it cos you couldn't do anything about it because your methods of running a country was a waste of time. +Er, so as far as I'm concerned and I'm sure as far as you're concerned, we are battling this together. +We maybe on different sides, but we want to make sure that the O A P s and the people that do have to er er present th pay these bills, I mean if you consider if you think of Calor, Calor Gas, Calor Gas, the way that I actually heat my I pay V A T on that, Calor Gas is is is V A T ed +Now, as far as Conservatives are concerned, I speak myself and I'm sure everyone here would offer the same sympathy as the the government has promised that they will do something about this. +I promise that I will look into it and can I, can report back to you if you wish me to when it comes out. +Doctor +Thank you very much Mr Chairman. +It's qu , it's quite. +Can we just quieten down a bit please. +Thank you. +It's quite interesting that er two members of the Conservative party have referred to these very high rates of inflation er that happened under a Labour government er because they, the, the reason they occurred primarily, if you remember is because in nineteen seventy two oil, oil was three dollars a barrel. +In nineteen seventy three it went up to fifteen dollars a barrel and in nineteen seventy nine it went up to thirty dollars a barrel. +Now that was. + +And what happened to him after that? +Er well he was unemployed for a quite some time er and he got odd casual jobs er and then finally doing er as late as the second world war he got er he got employment on the railway. +Now did he have any er political or trade union affiliations? +He had er some er trades union er some trades union experience. +Er er he did attend his er the union branches,q er quite regularly. +But he didn't have er he didn't have any official er position within the union branch. +And was he politically active or anything? +Er not really, no, not really that er er political activity was left er to my mother. +Yeah. +She was er she was politically acti active, er for the Labour Party . +Could you tell me a bit about that? +Yeah. +Yeah. +And erm what kind of things was she involved in then? +Well she was er very prominent in the er Labour Party War Organization, +Mm. +that old day they had a fairly er strong er War Organizations locally, and she was er she was fairly active in there. +And do you remember any experiences of your mother at election time or anything like that? +Er well yes. +Er,er the main means of propaganda of course in those days was er leaflet and er street meetings. +Er and I well remember er even as early as nineteen nineteen the election which took place immediately after world war one, I remember being er sort of dragged round the streets,you know, er I think it was enjoyable, I don't know er by my mother, er attending these street meetings,er I I I very well remember it because I had a a a new coat, a new coat for for er for this particular venture,and er the two things you know are fairly deep in my memory. +Now,how did your family cope with your mother being sort of politically active, what did you how did you manage? +Well, fairly well, fairly well. +Er erm, my older brothers er they took an active part, immediately i in the early twenties. +So it didn't seem to be of any hardship to to anybody for for the mother to be involved in er political activity. +Mm. +Did your father play er a role in ? +Er no no, he er er he did er become an individual member of the Labour party at that stage, but he er he he didn't he didn't take er er an active er or organized part in it.. +Now could you tell us a little bit about your brothers and sisters? +How many did you have,? +Well, I had my older brother,, er he won some sort of a scholarship I remember, he became er er part-time attendant at the er part-time attendant at the er university. +Er . +It didn't do him a lot of good in the early er in the early days, but er it did stand him in good stead later of course because he became er er a full-time official o of the er Notts area N U M. +This was wasn't it ? +He was indeed. +He he was one them, but who was er victimized in ninet after nineteen twenty six. +He spent all his working life up until nineteen twenty six er at the local Hucknall Colliery, but after twe er er twenty six, er he was victimized, he was dismissed, and was unable to get employment in the er in the industry, until er the latter thirties, middle thirties. +After which he became a branch official and er and er subsequently became a er a full-time area official. +Er another brother in the in twenty six, he he took another course of action, he he he cleared off and er he went to he went to live in Australia. +Er another brother he er subsequently became a er er a Labour county councillor, but that er that was after the second world war, er after he had er after he had er done war service. +But I'm quite sure his earlier associations within the family, er you know helped him in er in his endeavour to become a county councillor after the er after the second world war. +Er well that leaves me. +I also er I did have a sister +Yes. +and subsequently she was much younger. +She she she went to Australia. +And your elder brother you talked about at some length was Les, was it?? +That's right, yeah. +Er, and what about erm political affiliations? +They're all you mentioned one was a county councillor, what about Les what w he was involved with . +Ah,L L Leslie, yes, he he he did a tremendous amount of work for the er er for the L Labour party. +Er, he was indeed for some time the er secretary of the er er divisional Labour party. +Er, among other things. +But er he did a fair amount of educational work, organizing er educational classes and so on. +Er, so much so he was er able to er organize local weekend schools to which er people like Hugh Gaitskell, er would come and er give a couple of lectures, er Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon. +Er, John , another one. +Er he was also closely associated with the National Council of Labour Colleges, who did indeed +Mm. +help in the organization of er of these weekend schools. +But er immediately prior to the second world war, he did er he did er join the communist party. +Now, so he was a p a n a political influence on you was he, er at some time ? +Er, well it was all mixed up, it was all mixed up, the funny thing is, er whilst he was many years my senior,er I joined the communist party before he did. +So er er th th there were some er quite substantial er discussions and debates which er which er which went on in the family over the years of course. +Now erm, tt could you just talk a little bit just about your you know y your background as a child? +What what school did you go to? +I went to a local er er council school. +What was that called? +That was er er Boys' School. +And do you remember much about that? +pardon? +Do you remember much about that school?? +Er well, not a lot. +I remember there was er er about forty eight of us in the classes, that er that went on. +There was a very very strict er a very very strict discipline. +Er looking at it from today's standards, there was little er little recreation. +You know er little physical recreation.. +And what do y what sort of examples can you give about discipline then,harsh discipline? +What what what sort of things went on? +Er well er I d I remember the er in the infants, er in the infants section it was necessary for to er for to touch y touch your hat, touch your little cap, er when the er when the headmistress when the headmistress er went by. +Er and I think that somewhat sums it up. +You more or less stood to attention.. +Now erm did you stay in the same school or? +More or less, yes. +Yeah. +Er, the school had its infants department, and er intermediate and so on you see. +And you went on and left school at what age? +Fourteen. +And what did you come to do then, when you erm +Er, well +left school ? +of course, jobs were at a premium then. +Er, I got a job er in the butchery trade. +Er, which er I suppose I was there for for six years. +But, many of these, er many of these jobs of course as far as the young people were concerned were dead end jobs. +You got, nineteen twenty, twenty one, and that was it, they didn't want er they didn't want adults. +Er you know they they only wanted er re really junior people. +Now before we talk a little bit about that, I'll j can I just take you back erm a couple of years and ask you er what your memories are of the general strike? +What do you remember about that ? +About the general strike? +Yeah. +Er,one was er one was food. +Er,at midday, at midday,w we er er we reported to one of the local chapels. +Er the majority of the local chapels were were w were responsible for er organizing soup kitchens for the kids, er S it didn't apply Sundays, it didn't apply Sundays. +We got er a meal, mostly soup and a piece of bread,er at midday. +Er the chapel I attended was er the Baptist chapel on er on Road. +Er as I say, it the majority of it was soup, but on one occasion during the week, we always had er er some sort of mincemeat, er potted meat sandwiches and tea. +And er I can taste the tea now. +Er, it it had a peculiar taste with it. +I don't know exactly what it was, but er er it was potted meat sandwiches er and tea. +Now the other one, the other +Were you at school normally? +During the strike? +Oh yes, we were at school. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Er the other one was towards the latter end of the strike and er this particular area, the Notts area,er had what was called broken away from the er from the main body er of the strike. +There were some er some er miners in Notts who were persuaded er to go back to work. +Er, as against the decision of the er of the union. +And of course this created this created a a tr a tremendous problem, because er these few people that went to the er odd pits were in need of er a very strong police escort. +And there were hundreds of police who were drafted into the into the town,er billeted on the er local pubs, er and so on. +And d it was the duty of these police to protect these er er these people, these scabs as they were called,er and escort them from their homes to the pit, and see them back. +See them back home. +Er and I remember er er a a very vivid occasion of being on Road, which is close by the er Hucknall Colliery about three o'clock time, when er a couple of these er er people were being escorted back towards the centre of the town, after they'd done er a day's work and there were lots and lots of er er er people about, men and women, who were shouting and jeering, at er at er at these at these people, who had been er who had er er violated the union decision and gone to work. +And there were quite a large collection of police who stood in reserve up one of the side streets. +And er anyway, the situation was getting out of hand, and er the man in charge, the the the the superintendent, whoever he was, he gave the signal that these that these reserves should er should clear the street to make way for the to make way for the scabs. +And er they drew their truncheons, that I'd never seen before, policemen with truncheons, er and they started to run and everybody else started to run, and I forgot there was a puppy dog, this puppy dog it it chased it chased towards the er p policemen, and started er barking and d and carrying on, and one of the policemen did no more than thump it straight across the top of the head with a with a truncheon, and er and that was the end of the puppy. +Well everybody everybody really er began to scamper. +Er, people would try front doors to see if they could get in front doors, but no,and they dived down er er er entrances between the between the houses and so on. +Er, and all in all, it was quite er it's quite it was quite an experience, er er to have seen er this this er this police er er baton charge,er and er we were fortunate enough in in being able to to to get out of the way. +Those are the two e are the two experiences the the question of food and the f er the s the soup kitchens, and the er er police protection for those who er er went to violate the decisions er of the union. +Now about these these people, these blacklegs, what were they, were they local people, or were +Oh yeah. +they people drafted in? +They were local people then? +They were local people, yes. +And what was the attitude over and above, other than obviously coming in and out of work, what was the attitude of the local neighbours and whatnot towards them ? +Well er th er this is one of the misfortunes er is it not, you see, this bad feeling. +This bad feeling er lived on into old age. +Lived on into old age. +Er +What were the kind of conditions of the people who w who went back in, did they go in bec because of they had, erm say large families or something like that and they had difficulty trying to make ends meet? +Er I don't know whether that I don't know whether that was a factor, er er er looking back er er I wouldn't know. +But there was a a I know there was a a system in Notts you see whereby er the coal was dug on the basis of contracts between the management and er a man or two men +Mm. +and these two men would employ half a dozen other men, you see, and whether w whether it was for to to to to get a foothold in the future for to be one of these contractors or not, I j I just don't know. +You see. +Now what about your own family, how did you manage, how did you make ends meet with the er four children ? +Well we were fortunate, we were fortunate. +Er, in so far that my father had been dismissed from the er from the coal mining industry, er before just before nineteen twenty six,and he was officially unemployed. +So the family, we as a family were better off than the majority of er of families er in so far that er er whilst we were a a fair sized family, we did have at least some income, in the form of unemployment pay er that my father received. +Mm. +Er,my brothers brothers er older than me who were indeed er boys working in the pit, they didn't get, they didn't get any relief, or er any income. +Did they did +Except +they or you have to get any c casual work, I mean y sort of part-time little jobs? +Er +? +Yeah, well, er they did a little bit of er pea-picking. +They went to Spalding area, pea-picking. +And one or two er little odd jobs like this er for er for the summer period, but er obviously these harvest jobs er didn't last very long. +But there was a movement, there was a movement, because these single men had no income whatever,and there was a demonstration of er of these er single men, they marched to the workhouse, er in Baseford. +Er,the city, not the city, the the Baseford Hospital. +Er they they they marched, you see they'd no income, they'd nothing. +They they marched to the er to the workhouse, demanding that they should be taken in, you see. +Er, on the basis that er that er that er they were destitute. +But they were not allowed in because. +A they couldn't er they couldn't get er th they couldn't provide accommodation for all the hundreds that they were, you see. +And B of course er the political set up was such that they were not interested er in helping er the miners over this er over this particula particularly difficult er period. +And why do you think was that? +They di they didn't want to feed those on strike, they wanted to try and get them back to work did they? +Er, yeah, well, one one can appreciate in er in in circumstances of real hard struggle, +Yeah. +the likes of which the twenty six strike was, you see, there there was no er there was no holds barred. +.Y your political affiliation was either one way or the other, and er er er you didn't er you didn't m mince words about it, did you not, I mean you . +You didn't show you didn't show any er er either any enthusiasm or sympathy for the other side. +Now what about other members of the of your family? +Were they active in in organizing in, in participating in the picketing and this kind of thing,? +Yes, oh yes, they were er they were involved. +So much so of course that er that er the the elder brother, he was er he was er a branch official by this time, twenty six, at the er Hucknall Colliery, the local colliery, and of course when the strike er was over, er that was the end of he as far as working in the in the coal mining industry in this particular area, that was the end of it. +They er they just had their blacklists and er and er that was it, you you you were out, and you weren't going do er, you know, you were not allowed to have another job. +Now I don't know if you remember anything about the nine days of the General Strike, as opposed to the s sort of the whole miners' strike in that year. +Yeah. +Do you remember anything special about +Yeah. +those nine days? +Yeah. +In comparison to ? +Yeah, well er yeah, there was there was er one er er course er er we kids w looked upon er er these activities w with some with some interest you know? +Er for example it was better than going to school. +And th the local there was a local brewery, now I I can't quite remember which brewery it was, during the er during the General Strike,they er they decided to er to send out barrels of beer. +Er . +Obviously to the to one of their pubs. +And the vehicle got as far as Hucknall Marketplace,er and that was it. +The it was halted there,and er all the barrels of ale were were were were rolled off,we were rolled off the vehicle. +And er they were just they were just in the in the act of of of tapping of tapping a couple of these barrels, and er i it was unfortunate that the that the police showed up. +So consequently,th there was no er ,the there was no free beer. +But I ve I ve I very well remember that one. +Er I remember too er there was some attempt made to stop a train, which er which was run er on what was then known as the Great Central Line, that runs through, that runs through Hucknall. +Er I know that there was quite a business about this, but er I wasn't an eyewitness, er and I didn't er I'm never so sure that er I I didn't get the I didn't get the details right. +Er it seems it seems that there were a lot of students, from one of the bigger un er er top class universities which were handling this train,er but er there were quite a few er things done, some of them I would think dangerous. +But er apparently, er this train whilst it was halted, it was halted locally, but after a while it er it er it did get away, and it proceeded towards er towards er Sheffield. +What happened above er above Hucknall er I just don't know. +Now if we er if we can just move on move on back to your tt starting your working life, +Yeah. +Erm, and y you er said that you that you started work in a butcher 's. +W did you have a proper apprenticeship? +Not re No. +No. +No proper training? +Oh no, no. +And what were y What were the kind of jobs that you were expected to do then? +Well, er there was er er keeping the place cleaned, er there was er doing deliveries work, there was er the making up of er certain items, sausage, er etcetera, er and you were also ex expected to help in the er in the slaughterhouse. +Er and you sort of er er a general labourer actually, but you picked up some knowledge, some knowledge of the of the er business. +What er what sort of wages were you getting for that? +Well the wages then was er w started at er ten shillings, ten shillings a week, that's fifty P a week, you see. +And wh how did that compare with other lads of your age? +Was that good or bad? +Oh er now th that was that was that was pretty poor, er probably employed in the co-op in those days, would would have attracted er er er a fourteen shillings, er nearly half as much again. +Er, perhaps in the mining industry, you would have got er thirteen shillings, something like this. +And what sort of hours did you have to work then? +Shop work, is that a long, how long a day would you have? +Oh hours, it was er it was er six er six full days a week,seven in the morning to six at night that is. +Er. +Now, er if we could come on a little bit, erm, tt when was it that you became sort of officially politically active, when you actually joined er joined the party? +Oh well that would be the er I was a member of the er I was a member of the trades union whilst I was in this private distribution. +There weren't many others, er perhaps only four more er in the in the town, but we were associated with the with the er branch which looked after the interests of the co-op employees. +Er but er political affiliations,er serious political affiliation, that that would start about nineteen thirty one, or perhaps nineteen thirty two. +And and what did you join? +Well I joined the I joined the Young Communist League at that stage. +And er if we could just go into a little bit about, this was in Hucknall? +This was in Hucknall, yeah . +. +What what erm what sort of activities did you organize then, what sort of thi events did you ? +Well we did er we did a fair amount of er er leaflet er distribution. +Er,there were one or two of us, not many we helped the er Communist Party branch proper, in their campaigns for er council elections, er sales of the er of the Daily Worker, as as as it was known er in those days. +Er,we had a fair amount of activity supporting the s marchers of the er unemployed. +Er, I would think we made ourselves generally useful. +Probably too much so on the political side,in so far that er er looking back, it seems that w w we were isolated from other young people, in so far that we were associated with straight political er activity and er straight political movement . +Mm. +Well why w would why would you say that, what what s what s was your sort of membership, where from what groups of people did you draw your members from? +Well, they were much the same, local workers. +Er, a couple of lads who were who were unemployed, er we were never able to break in the mining industry, at this particular stage. +We were never able to er we were never able to get young miners er in these in the very early days immediately after nineteen twenty six onwards, to er to er to be associated with the er Young Communist League. +And why do you think that was? +Was it was it or would you say it was ? +Well er this wa this was this was this was very clear, this was very clear you see. +When you look back, when you look back you see, erm, understand that after nineteen twenty six, at the local pits,if you if you took a watch, if you took a watch to work with you,so that you're in a position to know the time, and tell the other people what the time was, you see, you were running the serious risk of losing your job. +Now this, this may this may appear , this may this may may be a this may appear to be a a a something farfetched, might this. +This is exactly what the situation was. +Because they developed a system of mining, whereby once once it was the the the task had begun to clear the coal face of a certain er a certain area of coal,it didn't matter what what happened during that particular period of time, whether all the machinery broke down, etcetera, etcetera,you had to stop u until that amount of coal had been cleared off, you see. +And they were not having anybody in the mine, with a watch, who could let people know exactly what the time was, and in other words, create a situation where the men might go home before they'd completed this particular task. +But that that indeed er was the situation. +Er so much so, you see that er er er people who did have employment in the industry would not, would not be seen talking to left-wing Labour party people, or members of the Communist party, because they readily understood, you know, that here was a risk that they were running, whereby they may indeed lo er er lose their employment. +Er and so the therefore you see, these are some of the reasons why w we were unable to get close to the er er er younger members, who were or or or the younger people who were employed in the coal industry. +Now, +However, the situation was changed later on. +Er what was your relationship with people, as you say, on the left in the La in the Labour party? +With the Labour party generally? +Or w or and with the youth in the I L P and the Labour +. +party with their youth sections, what was your relationship with them? +Well the funny thing was that er the local Labour party n didn't have didn't have a youth er a youth section. +It were shame, it were shame that those who would er have been the youth section in in the Labour party locally were we people, who were who were in the Youth Communist League, you see. +Er but the relationship with the er with the Labour party, and particularly the left in the Labour party, was not er was not too bad at all. +Was not too bad at all, because er d d d everybody was inv involved in some sort of endeavour, either er er through the unions, or through the er demonstrations against unemployment, you see, so there there was indeed er a a certain coming together. +Er when the election, local elections were on of course, er er er i we were n not quite so friendly to each other , because er each had got candidates er contesting for the er for the same er for the one er particular seat. +How wh what sort of how how did that feel, then er er one minute you were fighting together on er an unemployed +Mm. +demonstration, and the next minute you were fighting against +Mm. +one another, what er wh did that cause any personal antagonism? +Er, only in very very odd cases. +Only in very odd cases. +Er I don't think er the L on the left it didn't much matter, on the left it didn't much matter, er er er er the right-wing types were probably not so er not so very happy about the situation. +Now, you've you've talked about these activities, erm,. +And wi and parliamentary-wise, you see, +Yes. +there was a er a fairly good er fairly good er M P, a fellow named Seymour Cox. +Er, he was not a brilliant orator, er but er by and large he was er he was er he he he was he he was a pretty good and well respected er member of parliament. +Erm,if we can just talk a bit about the the the activities, the question of the demonstrations against unemployment, what did you actually do to to aid those demonstrations? +Were these the national marches as well as local ones? +Oh yes. +The national marches er the the er the Yorkshire the Yorkshire contingent er would come through here. +Er and when the Yorkshire contingent didn't come through here, you'd get the er er er Notts er contingent, which er would join up with the Derbyshire contingent, er a wee bit a wee bit lower down, wee bit lower down the er er down the country, so er in every er in every er activity against er unemployment, they'd the locals who were who were obviously involved. +And what sort of things did you actually do to help the national hunger marchers then? +What practical support did you give them? +Er well we'd er er distribute the leaflets, we'd er do what was known as the whitewashing, in other words, er er er whitewash slogans, whitewash times of meetings,whitewash the announcement of er er times of arrival, er and things of this character. +And what about their accommodation and things like that, did you or or the food, did you do anything like that ? +Er invariably the co accommodation was er was provided in the in the local halls, there were two local halls in those days, but er primarily the public hall,wi that was the local council hall. +Er, this er provided the er this provided the accommodation. +They all slept there, you know, they s th they they they slept rough. +But it was warm, er and er meals were provided for them. +And do you have any specific memories of er the hunger marches? +Because it must be thirty two and thirty six, mainly you'd be talking about wouldn't it? +Yeah. +Early thirties, yes. +The two main ones. +And what Do you have any sort of memories that you can describe of of the marches in coming to ? +Er I remember one I remember one demonstration, we were able to er we were e employed you see, er we we didn't we didn't participate in the er in a national march, but what we were able to do on one occasion was er to raise enough money for one or two of us, for to er go to London by the train, and er be in Hyde Park when er the er the various contingents from e er from various areas er of London, marched er marched into er marched into Hyde Park. +And er it was quite er it was quite something you see to see these er thousands of er of er and they were well-disciplined, er in demonstration, with banners, with their elected leaders at the front, march into er march into er er Hyde Park, er they had bands playing, they had er er perhaps er fifteen or sixteen platforms, you know from which the er various working class leaders er er spoke, to I don't know how many people,wh who er who who would be in H Hyde Park on on on on er on this particular day. +But er as much as anything, that in itself was er er one of the ai you know one of the er high points that the er I remember of this particular period. +Hyde Park erm was it to see the arrival of the hunger marchers, can you remember what year that was? +I can't no, I can't. +And er +Er it could have been thirty two er er er. +Now can you remember any of the local initiatives, or any of the local activities that took place against unemployment? +What what sort of things that went on. +Erm well there was er there was the local organization for the unemployed, the national union, the er national unemployed workers' movement. +They they had a very strong well-organized er well-organized branch locally. +Er and these people er understood what could be got f er what little bits could be got out of the er various unemployment er acts, and er this knowledge, er plus the pressures and feelings that were able to be brought to bear, I'm quite sure did er did benefit many er many people who who were unemployed. +Er, for example, er whilst people w were getting what er the unemployment act said they should have, er this pressure was er I'm quite sure, able to get some additional er benefits even if it was er only in kind, er from the from the local authorities. +Now wh erm can you remember any of the sort of i initiatives, I mean did anything take place in Hucknall? +Er not beyond not beyond the er the marketplace the er marketplace meetings. +Er, summertime, good weather,the these meetings were a feature of er the you know the political lie, er in the wintertime, similar meetings and activities were undertaken er in the public hall, er in in in the local hall. +But er er exact er victories if you in that respect, it's hard to it's hard to say whether they were any. +And er how how many people did you get at at these street meetings in the marketplace ? +In the public i in the marketplace? +Yeah. +Ooh, round about er three hundred. +Yeah. +Oh yes, it was, you could get a meeting there, you could get a meeting there. +And there was interest, there was heckling, there was er er er etcetera etcetera, you see? +And it had been known that er the Tories that the Tories through the medium of er the economic league, you know, their their propaganda organization, the economic league, which was er which was substantially supported by the by the coal owners +. +Yeah. +obviously, er they th they'd been known they'd been known to come, er and try and have a meeting. +They they usually didn't finish it, but er they started,so er there was a fair amount of er of er of er interest in the marketplace. +Now you you told me er er before about this er the unemployed used to gather weekly in in in the in the public hall, what +Yeah. +was this? +What what took place at these meetings? +Well, they would have a er they would have a singsong, they would have er their own er er local artists, you know, er +What would that be, not just sort of Play School songs, it would be anything would it?. +Anything, anything, anything. +Oh yes, yes. +Anything. +Er instrumentalists, local instrumentalists but er overall of course it er i i i i it was the er er unemployed workers' organization. +And was there any sort of political activities organized then? +Erm, meetings or classes or anything like that? +Yes, there was er a fair amount of er straight political er er education. +Er, for example classes were, my mother organized some classes, other people organized classes. +Er for example, I remember in , a couple of miles down the road, in the er Hall,there was er there was weekly classes on er among other things on Marxian economics, you see. +We had no money in our pockets, but er we're talking about er er er economics, and Marxian economics at that , er and funnily enough the chap the chap who did that, er Bert , he was unemployed, he was he was one of the fellows from Derbyshire who was victimized in Derbyshire. +Er, he was a lecturer, and er er a couple of fags and he was a couple of cigarettes and he was he wa he wa he was er quite well quite well er r rewarded. +But he, he became he became the area secretary, of the Derbyshire miners er Derbyshire miners organization. +Er, and you've got er you've got er political er educational classes, similar to this, both in Hucknall, er and in the and in the surrounding area. +And did you, even though you were employed, did you actually participate ? +Oh yes, yes yes. +Er,of a Friday evening, of a Friday evening, er I would attend er er a national council of labour colleges lecture, a fellow named u u us us used to run this one. +Er,and then er I also attended er er political discussions and lectures which were laid on er by the communist party as well. +And this went on for years this? +Oh yes, over a long period. +Over a long period. +Now, what about your your life outside of work, and outside of political activity, did you have much leisure activities? +Er not really. +I er I was a keen cyclist. +Er, mind many people, many people relied on the cycle er for to get about you see. +Er if we attended if if we were due to attend a meeting for example in in in Derby, er er twenty mile away? +Er, well, you went on a bike, you see. +Er er if if you er er if you attended were to attend er a meeting in Nottingham, you went on your bike, or Mansfield you see. +Er and apart from them, I was er I was er I was a fairly er keen er cyclist, and did er did a little bit of camping too. +But er +Right. +Where did you used to go? +Why what did you used to do? +Er well we had a camp, the Youth Communist League had a camp down at er a place called Lamley Dumbles,that was er that was not far er not far from Colliery. +Er quite a successful camp that, quite a successful camp. +Er what sort +fifty or sixty er er of a weekend, you know who who would attend, who would attend that. +And what sort of things did you get up to? +Er well we had er er a very fine er er wind-up gramophone, and we had some marvellous records. +Some er some very good erm records I should say decent music. +Er +What do you mean by that, decent music? +Pardon? +What do you mean by decent music? +Well, er you'd get er light opera, and er er and er you know Gilbert and Sullivan and and and and and +Yeah. +and this sort of thing. +Er which was er which was always er which was always enjoyable. +Mm. +Er apart from, you'd get a ramble, you know y y you'd go along for for for for a ramble, er my most most of the time was er made up er by er cooking your grub, you know ? +Mm. +Messing about with the wi wi with the er food. +Now, what about other things? +I mean did you ever have time for dances, and going to the pictures and that kind of thing, I mean you must have found some time ? +Er, well that that kind of thing, that +As a young man. +that was always a question of money, +Yeah. +you know, and er you just didn't er you just didn't have er er y you may get a cinema once a week, or perhaps a dance once a week, but that er that wa that was the limit, you know. +But you ma you managed to fit in some other sort of +Oh yes. +social life over and above it, as a sort of relax , you know, +Yeah, yeah. +yeah? +That was what I was trying to get at. +And then you know so l try and bring that on,y you erm you got married in the thirties, +That's right. +and how did you get round to to meet your wife then? +Well she was er er she was involved with er er the cooperative youth organization, known as the er Co-op Comrades Circle. +Er, and all all of these organizations, you see, one way or another, their paths crossed and er erm people met people this way. +And can you remember how exactly you met your wife? +Er I don't know, er I don't know I'm not er I do er I had this brother, I had this brother, and he was er he was a lecturer you see, and he was supposed to g go to West Bridgford to talk to this Co-op Comrades Circle on the problems of the Saar. +Er I I don't know whether you know about the Saar? +That that the area in Germany you mean? +That's right. +Yeah. +Between France and Germany you see. +And he sent me to tell them he couldn't come, you see. +. Er and i something like this. +And so you met your wife there? +, aye. +Erm, and how long was it before you got married? +I don't know really, I married in er early thirty six, er er er +Now, your your wife wasn't a member of the communist party? +She was by this time. +Yeah? +Er +Wha what did she think by er she was a member before she got, before she married then? +Yeah. +Yeah, yeah, yeah. +Er so she was she wasn't bothered at all about your er +Oh no no no, no no . +your activities when you first started. +So how did you er manage when you first got married then? +Did your wife work at all? +Yes, well she she er she did a bit of work and er we lived +What what job did she do? +in a comparatively comparatively cheap er cheap little flat, with er some other party members you see. +So we were +Whereabouts Hucknall? +this was in ba the exact centre of Hucknall. +Er near the marketplace, overlooking the marketplace. +But of course er that's gone now, that that's all gone now, and by one means or another we were able to er to er live comfortably, anyway. +And your wife was from West Bridgford originally, was she? +Yeah, yeah . +Yeah. +Well she lived down there, but she originates from Derbyshire,. +And w er did sh you said she got some work, what what job did she do then to help? +Erm, mostly of a domestic nature. +And you were still working in the butchers' at this time? +That's right. +That's right. +Now, er if we could come on now, it was in nineteen thirty six that you went to Spain? +Well, it was thirty seven. +Thirty seven was it ? +Yeah. +Erm,now can you tell me about how you how you decided to actually, you know why you decided to actually go to Spain in the first place? +Well er you see, the b the the the political background, er played a very important part,er and the fa and the struggle against fascism in this er early thirty period, was er was really something. +Er it's difficult for people to appreciate today er the amount of political activity that took place during this early thirty period, and it's pe difficult for people to appreciate the political understanding that did exist over this period. +And not only political understanding, but political determination to do something about it. +And the er the er struggle of the Spanish people r really captured the imagination of er huge sections of the er of the majority of the people er er in Britain. +And you'd got you'd got a tremendous buildup you know of er of enthusiasm, of determination you see, er and obviously er people wanted to give er expression to their support to the maximum. +Er people quite a f few people went to er er went to Spain. +Bef before I went, er I er quite a few of my friends went. +You see, and it's er it er it's this j this background you see which er er er convinced people that er they ought to you know help the Spanish people in a real, serious, and er and personal capacity. +Because they'd got a tremendous struggle on, they'd got a tremendous struggle on, they were struggling against tremendous odds,they were struggling against er er all sorts of er er of er of trickery, that er was being conducted by quite a quite a few of the er quite a few of the major powers. +And it was this background you see that er that er th th that gave me at least the need for to to play some some part in +Mm. +helping along the struggle against er er against fascism. +Now did you go with friends? +Did you go with you know your friends and comrades at the time? +Well, I er er I picked up I picked up er I picked up people in London, but , locally locally er I went er individually. +I went on my own. +How did you know people had gone before you though?. +Well we got letters back, we +Yeah. +Your +. +your friends had gone, though, you had gone . +Oh yes yes yes. +Er in fact in fact, a a c a couple of them are o er b were killed there. +Er er one from Mansfield, er one from Nottingham. +Now can you tell me a bit about you your your journey down there? +Er we were well it it it was fairly well-organized, it was fairly well-organized it was er. +Well how, you you got to London did you? +And then ? +Yeah, you're in need of er you're in need of er getting to London. +Er, and to get to London, probably the local people would help raise the er would help raise the fare, but having er er having got to London, er you contacted the organization, er you would then took a er weekend ticket, took a weekend ticket to er to Paris. +This was a, you know, a return er a return ticket. +Cost about one pounds twenty five, or the equivalent of one pounds twenty five P. +But er you got to Paris, you got an address in Paris, they gave you a bed,couple of meals +Now who who ga who supplied the money? +Were you given the money or did you have to pay for that yourself? +Oh no, you er they er provided the ticket, you see, they provided the ticket. +Mm. +Oh there was no such thing if they gave you the money, you might nip off.. +. +No, they they provid they gave you the tickets you see. +Mm. +How we got there, er you you you got er you got some food, ad you got a bed for er for a couple of days. +Er, you then had got another ticket, and er train ticket, and you went to the south of France by train,and er you got a bed and a couple of meals there er then you had a bus ride. +They provided a bus, you had a bus ride and you picked up a couple of guides er, who during the night would take you over the er take you over the er Pyrenees, er over the mountains er, the Pyrenees, you see becau er you're in need of a guide because the er the frontier posts etcetera etcetera were shut, were closed. +Er, and they were also guarded. +And er you were in need of er er finding a way over the Pyrenees which er gave you a chance of er getting to the other side, so hence er you needed er you needed French er er French guides. +And they were guarded by Franco's troops? +Pardon? +They were guard guarded by Franco's troops? +Ah well you didn't go over, you didn't go over er where Franco's troops were, but +Mm. +they were guarded by French troops, you see . +I see. +Yeah. +Er there was not a lot of enthusiasm for this er th this guarding which went on you see, because everybody was in sympathy er with the cause of the republican government, the S the Spanish republican government. +Now, +So it was er only half-hearted as far as er as far as the er the er activities of the guards on the frontiers from the French side were concerned. +Now, where did you go to once you were in Spain? +Well, we went to a place called Figueres +That's just inside er that's just inside, er just inside Spain, what +. +they have it's a it's an old an old fort, from the grander days of the er history of Spain yeah. +And er from there, from there we we er we were er we were obviously then enrolled there, and we then went to er a training base of Albusate +Now how +more or less in the er almost in the middle of Spain. +Tt how long had the erm journey took you then from from from Nottingham down to Albusate +From here to to er republican territory? +Yeah. +Perhaps six days. +And it was quite short then? +The er . +Oh yeah yeah, it was quite short, yeah. +Yeah. +Now what happened when you got to er Albusate the me ? +This was what was there, it was the international brigade ? +Well that was the that was the er base headquarters of the international brigade,Albusate And then from there,w you were farmed out to the village, which was er er sort of the base, who are responsible for your er particular national battalion, you see er, the the the French people, they they er w they would be in one village, the English and the Canadians er er Americans would be er in this place that we were at, called Tarrazona Er and the Germans w , the German anti-fascists would be er in another. +Er like wh when I was with the It er the Italian anti-fascists, you see. +And what er How many different nationalities were there then?? +Well, you you you name the nationality and they were there, you see. +They were a everybody was there. +And not just Europeans? +Oh no, no. +Who who from outside of Europe ? +No, there were there were Indonesian, there were there we the the there were Chinese, there was er the there were Mexicans, there were er Ce people from er Central America, South America, from everywhere. +Now, given the different nationalities,wa wasn't there a communication problem? +Language problem? +Well, er er there there al there always is, isn't there? +There is a there is but er er but er er the medium er er as best it could be used was was Spanish you see. +See? +And it's surprising the number of people er who do speak Spanish. +You see, because everybody everybody from Mexico, right down to the er to the tip of South America, for example,er speak one dialect or another of er of er of of of of Spain, of the Spanish language, and large areas of er of er the Indes you see, er and Italian is not a long way from it, you see, so er er er it it on the surface it may seem to have have been difficult, but the er you know there we we we did get by. +Did you manage by pick did you pick up a few words yourself? +Ah, yes, just a few. +Everybody managed by +Yeah. +doing that did they? +Yeah, yeah. +And er what what was the point, it was like a training camp as well was it? +That's right, yeah. +Now what what kind of er training did you get? +Well er we got we got the use of er er of rifles, you know, there weren't many, because they were wanted er they were wanted at the er front. +There were one or two rifles they were er, you know, +. +so we did indeed get some basic er basic military training. +We fired rifles, and and and and and this and this sort of thing. +Er, we did er you know practise military formations as they were as they were practised in er in those days and so on. +So we did er we did indeed get some er basic military training. +Erm what about your standard of living? +What what kind of food did you get, and where were you living at the time? +Er,well there was always a problem er food-wise, because there was a scarcity, there was a sc an overall scarcity er of food. +Er er and the Spanish coast, you see, was blockaded. +You see it was er whilst it was er er a democratically, legally elected government, you see there were such people as er er as Mussolini, from Italy, fascist Italy,and er er er Hitlerite Germany you see, who had got units, naval units, air units etcetera, blockaded. +Blockaded the er er the ports of er of republican Spain. +And consequently, er the blockade did have er did have serious er serious consequences for the imports in relation to food etcetera, that er that were required by the er by the republican government. +So what sort of +I remember there was one fellow, er an Englishman, he was known as Potato Jones. +He used to he used to run his own ship, er a little coastal a little coastal er er vessel. +Er, and he he used to run he used to run food to er the in er in this in this boat, a fellow named Potato Jones, I don't know why he was known as Potato Jones, +Er was was he politically inclined, was he +Er this I don't know, this I don't know, but er +or was it a bit of opportunist entrepreneur ? +Yeah. +He was an he he was an he was a hero you see, er er er +You don't know whether he did it from an entrepreneur's point of view, or from er +No. +Exactly why, he must have had some sympathy, mustn't he ? +. +Er now, +And and and the food, on +Yeah. +the question of food +Yeah, yeah. +you see it was er er er it could have been er it could have been er better done, but er, we got by, we got by. +What what exactly kind of meals did you have? +What were they? +Most of it most of it is most +Rice is it? +of it was soup. +Most of it , +Was it? +most of it was soup. +I was ever so sure that er that that there was a goodly number of er er er well there was a qu quite a substantial fall in the in the in the donkey population, er +. +er in Spain, because we reckoned it was only donkey that went in that went into the er burro as they call it , went into the went into the soup, you know with the beans and er er er various types of lentils and so on. +And er the bread. +The bread wasn't bad, the bread wasn't bad. +Did you ever get any let up from that though? +Did you ever have a decent meal ? +Er n not really, you you may talk your way into some peasant's house, and er er he'd give you a scrambled egg or or something like this, and er that was something, if you got a scrambled egg. +And what about oth other other supplies, I mean clothing, and cigarettes and that kind of thing, was that ? +? +. Well, you had what you went in you see, er you may get a you may have got a a trench-coat, or a poncho, you know, er er sort of a big cloak, er but er uniform in the in the accepted military sense, er, no.. +Mm. +And what about cigarettes? +Pardon? +How about did you manage for them? +Cigarettes? +Well, er er a similar, er when you got a letter, when you got a letter,so you you'd probably get you'd probably get four or five Woodbines, you see, er things like this, and there was an issue from time to time, and they were chiefly American cigarettes, chiefly American cigarettes. +Now, +Perhaps once a week you'd get twenty of those, but er there there was a local tobacco, you know. +But er, you'd got to be a man and a half to be able just to to smoke to smoke the local stuff.. +Now how long were you were you at this er camp before you ? +Oh er perhaps a couple of months. +No longer. +Now how how was the army itself organized, did you was it in the in the normal normal sense of the army +Oh yes. +or was it +Yes, it was organized and it and er yes. +There were companies, er and there'd be probably three companies to a battalion, something like this, depends on the arms, er and then er you'd get three or four battalions to er to a brigade, you see. +But you had political commissars ? +And we had political commissars, oh yes, yes . +And what what sort of a role did they play, then? +What did they do? +Er, well,they had a difficult job, they had a difficult job you see, because they'd got to keep explaining to you why you hadn't got a rifle. +And er and when you're fighting a war, you see and er and and and er and you haven't got a rifle, I mean it's a serious problem. +So the political commissar has got to convince you, you see, as to who was responsible for you not having a rifle. +Er in other words in other words,their task was one of er of holding, maintaining, you know,er a political enthusiasm,you know and er and er a political discipline, see? +So when things aren't going very well, you see, the the the f these these are the chaps that's got to do, they've got to do the explaining. +But er did they have er any other sort of job to do though? +I mean did they you know deliver political speeches to try and . +Oh yes, yes, yes. +. This was their role, this was their role, you see. +Erm and how did that go down well, did it er did it work in practice ? +Well it more or less, it more or less it was accepted. +. Because he's talking,he's he's talking to er er a fairly high er political level of understanding +Mm. +you see. +Mm. +And wh what happened then? +Wh where did you go to anyway when you when you were sent to the front ? +Oh well er I joined the er I joined the er British battalion, er er up the front, not far from a place called er . +interesting, you said the British battalion,th y , in your own battalions you kept your own nationality. +Oh yes, aha. +So that language +Yeah. +Although for a time for a time, I was er I was with er er er an hotchpotch, mixed up outfit,wh which included er Americans, Canadians,er and British. +But mainly but English speaking? +Oh aye, yes, they were all English speaking , +. +oh yes, yeah. +But anyway when y you were first sent with the British battalion to , was that?. +Well then I went to the British battalion, +Mm. +not far . +Erm did you have all your equipment by this time, then you did get a rifle ? +More or less, more or less. +Er, you'd never got er you'd never got enough er if you'd got a rifle, er you didn't have many rounds of ammunition, and things like this, you see. +So there was never er there was never an an abundance of anything, as far as that went. +Now were you involved in many battles? +Not many. +No. +Er I was involved in the in the this battle that resulted in the breakthrough by the er by the er by Franco's fascists, at , er +What what sort of things went on, erm was it close fighting or did you never see +Yeah, it +it got fairly close. +Er it ought not to have done in so far that er we were we were we were we were moving, we were going forward to take up positions on er on the river, er and this was being done on the understanding that er a certain bridge had been destroyed,er and it hadn't been destroyed er and they were and they were they were already across you see. +They were already our side, +This is the nationalist army, yeah? +and er they did indeed even have tanks across this side. +Er and when you ain't got any tanks,, and he's got some tanks, your your your situation isn't it's it's not very it's not very healthy. +They not only had tanks, they had er they had aircraft. +In fact, in fact,tt it was a regular army division er from Italy that was doing this job. +And so you as a sort of er volunteer army didn't have a lot of +Well we you didn't have a lot of chance in these circumstances, in these circumstances when they when they possessed every every piece of modern equipment,or equipment that w was modern in those er in th in those er in those days, and you're not er +Was there much ? +you're not er er er more heavily armed than er than rifle, and the odd light machine gun. +And er he's already he's already got you at a disadvantage,by er er you're on the move and he's waiting for you. +Now,d was there much of a battle, or did you realize ? +Yes, this went on, it went on for about er three days, it went on for three days. +Er but er in the end er in the end they won. +Obviously. +They +Mm. +er the air force, the German air force, aye, they had a go as well, they they they they they they they were providing all sorts of er er strafing and bombing, er comma. +And it's my contention, it's my contention that them people that were er strafing and bombing me, er outside , er in republican Spain, was the same was the same crowd was the same crowd that were bombing and strafing several years later, in the in in the second world war, in in in France er and Holland. +Now, what happened to you then? +Well, I was captured, +And if we can just er just go back just for for one minute, just to draw a bit of before you were captured, er and whatnot, could you tell us just a little bit about the living conditions that you had when you were actually at the front. +Well er aye. +Well you j you just live rough, you li you live rough. +Er and this particular time of the year, it was summer of course, you we you you weren't overly worried about not having a shelter, you see. +You had reached the stage where you could er you could sleep out er and you didn't er er you didn't have a soft bed if er you were you were living rough. +And of course er er i i I think it says something it says some thing for the morale, you see, that er and political understanding you see, that you can accept all these things, see, er er and still er and still carry on determined. +Now what about your supplies, how did you manage with them? +Er most of the supplies, food, was picked up er was picked up locally. +Er er it seems we had a very good er er quartermaster, he seemed to always turn up er he seemed to always turn up with something. +Er it seems it seems that the English are p pretty good at this sort of thing. +And did you ever meet up with your friends from Nottingham at that time? +Er, yes. +Er Gregory, yes, I saw him. +But Gregory, he came down to the er to the base, and then I went out, you see and er er he he was back at the base whil whil whilst this was going on. +Although, although I would think that er Waldo Gregory has got the longest er time served in active service than probably er any other individual that went to Spain. +he was in at the beginning and he was er he was there at the end, sort of thing . +Mm. +Er he suffered a couple of wounds as a ma as a matter of fact. +Now er what happened once you'd been captured then? +Where were you taken? +Tt er well we had like I I say, we w we were i we were in the hands we were in the hands of the er Italian army, the er regular army from Italy, we were in their hands er for quite some time. +Er there was some relief I should think about this, er er a bit of relief. +But after a while, after a while we were handed over to the er Spanish fascist authorities, proper. +Er er there was just the one meal a day and a piece of bread and that was your lot. +But er after a while, +Erm er th they so they treated you quite badly then? +Pardon? +They they didn't treat you very well? +Not r no, not really. +No. +And di did they +They they weren't against laying about you with sticks and stones and rifle butts for no reason at all. +And did they pick on any individuals? +Er oh yeah, they they would +. +pick on individuals. +There was a a bloke named , er he w he he was er er an Irishman, who who had er a fairly high standing in the Irish er republican movement. +Er they were they picked they picked er they picked on him. +And as a matter of fact, as a matter of fact, the Germans th th th had thought that he would be of value to them at a later stage,because he was er he was shipped to Germany, and er er I understand that he died in Germany er at the latter end of er of of er of the of the war, the Second World War. +Y er er th they they kept him there, they they I think they were hopeful, they were hopeful that he being a republican from Ireland, that er he he c he c he could have been used, you know by the Nazis in er in their general propaganda, directed to Britain er with a Irish er slant on the situation, but er it's quite clear that er that they were never able to use . +er er er wouldn't be used, because er he was never heard he was never he was heard,he was never heard, erm similar to this Lord Haw-Haw, you know that used to do the broadcasting er from from Nazi Germany to er to to to Britain, particularly to England. +But anyway, he he died almost as a prisoner at er at towards the end of er o er er of the Second World War. +Er and they did indeed, they picked er they picked on him. +Er but this er that was a that was a er decision of the er er of the German command, of the German army that was in Spain. +But after the war,w we went back er under the er under the control of the Italian army. + +Okay so last week we looked at the participatory model of democracy which in essence of Russo's Theory in three ways. +First of all, it allows much more room for debate, discussion, dissension, even disobedience in Russo's Theory. +a consequence of giving up the assumption that there's at least an easily recognizable general will. +So either you say there's no general will or there is something like a general will, but it is not easily recognizable and for either reason you would want to be much more tolerant of the role minorities, either as a way of getting to the truth, or erm as a way of as it were making up the truth as you're going along. +So that's the first difference between participatory model and Russo's model there's much more room for debate and consequent toleration of minority. +Secondly, it gives up the distinction between sovereign and the executive in the sense that the people are not restricted only to making laws, but they can also get involved in decisions about particular acts of will. +So for example, er on Russo's model we saw the people are not consultive on the issue of whether the State should go to war or not, because that's a particular act and must be left to the executive. +In the participatory democracy the people would certainly decide that . +The third difference was that the participatory model and it is perhaps the most distinctive about it, extends democracy to other institutions of civil society, including the family, the workplace, local governments and so on. +Now I discussed three objections to the participatory model last week. +The first one is John Stuart Mill's objection which is that we can't leave everything to the people. +At some point individuals must administer, you can't have a committee carrying out the +committee. +You must need some individual point by that committee and the same is true for governments. +So it is not possible, not practically possible to leave everything to the people. +We'll come back to that objection. +The second objection was the problem of agenda setting in a participatory democracy. +How is it that the people come to be discussing certain issues +rather than other issues? +How do those issues get decided and I thought there's no sensible answer. +Thirdly there's the old objection of participatory democracy that it simply takes up too much time and this is not a trivial objection, because the thought is not that it's simply time-consuming, but because it's so +time-consuming, it's destructive of other things we value so that we value er artistic creation, enjoyment, conversation and so on. +These things, there would simply be no time left for +erm in political decision making. +Okay, so much for last week. +This week I want to start by reconsidering that first objection but we can't leave everything to the people. +At some point we need administrators to carry out the will of the people. +Now the defenders of participatory democracy would consider this as a very weak objection. +What they would say is that we have to, perhaps we do have to leave things to the individual, but we should leave as little possible to individuals, as little as practically possible so that we should the people involved in making all the important decisions, particularly the carrying out of them that we have to leave to particular appointed individuals. +So erm we can cast this in a different context. +We've got really two things in play here, one is the role of individuals who administer and the other is the role of the people, so we have a question of what is the proper role of the people and what is the proper role of the individual administrators. +We've seen the answers from participatory democracy as little as possible to the individuals as much as possible to the people. +At the other extreme we have something like Plato's system, where the people are given no role at all and everything is left to individual experts, individual administrators, so Plato's system is at one everything is left to the individuals, participatory democracy +as little as possible is left to individuals. +Somewhere in the middle we have Russo's system where the people make laws but no do nothing else everything else is left to appointed individuals. +There's a fourth possibility that we haven't looked at yet and this is a possibility of representative government where the people simply elect lawmakers, the people don't make laws they elect the people to make laws. +So in this case the people who carry out the will of the people make the laws on behalf of the people. +So representative government gives some role to the will of the people, some role to the individual to individuals, but erm in a way less role +to the will of the people than participatory democracy or Russo All the individuals do is elect their governors, so this is the idea that Russo called not democracy but that to of aristocracy. +We vote in a group of people who then in this view, Mill's view take laws on our behalf. +They also appoint administrators to carry out those laws. +So this is a much more familiar model of democracy to us than any of the others that we've seen so far +and for Mill, representative democracy was the only way democracy could survive in the modern world. +He particularly was concerned about problems of scale as a practical problem, that is it may well be in a small town you could have a direct democracy, a face-to-face community where people can talk to each other and argue with each other and meet on a regular basis, but as soon as you get cities, countries, nations,direct democracy of any sort is erm absurd +Well and we have seen one response for people now making Mill that is that his objections are not being finessed by computer technology, they don't want to get back into that type of argument, because this is really not the most important argument against direct democracy. +To understand Mill's view or at least to see why Mill makes the argument he does make, er I E not just the argument but other arguments which represent democracy. +We have to understand first of all what Mill thinks the proper function of government +and in his view governments have two roles. +There are two things that governments ought to be doing. +Firstly they ought to improve the citizens, both morally and intellectually, so it's the role of the government to make better citizens. +Secondly they have to manage the affairs of government well, or rather erm, so they have to manage the affairs of the state. +What does this second claim come to what is its state of the affairs of the state well, well we should assume that Mill ultimately utilitarian standard so that erm to manage the state's affairs well is to maximize general happiness. +However, it's surprising that in on representative government utilitarianism barely surfaces and that almost no mention at all is made of utility apart from in a very general way. +However erm so two things to say about that, I think we can assume +will ultimately apply utilitarian standard, but he doesn't make much of it here and he relies on a much more intuitive idea of what manage things well and he assumes that different branches of government will have different standards of success and that we will be able to tell pretty much whether they're doing well or badly. +Now this is rather a banal claim I suppose that erm the proper function of government is to manage things well, I mean who would have doubted that, but the other claim that governments, one of the roles of governments is to improve the citizens is more surprising, particularly for a liberal view and there's a more standard liberal position now would be that the moral well-being citizens is not a proper matter of governmental concern. +Or they should, the citizens should be er stopped from er attacking each other and so on, but whether the citizens turn out to be morally good or morally bad in other ways in private matters, whether they're morally improving or not, is simply not the business of governments. +It is surprising to hear that Mill doesn't hold this view that he thinks that erm the moral health of the citizens is of concern to the government and it actually gives, although he doesn't seem to recognize this, this gives a hostage to fortune to his conservative critics because of course they can say, did say that liberalism was very damaging of er morality of the public and so we need a far more restrictive type of regime than Mill allows us. +And anyway I'm going to leave that on one side now because it's more erm a problem to reconciling Mill's views about liberty with his views about a proper government rather than directly about governments, so I'm just going to note that and move on now. +Okay well suppose that erm Mill is right that these are the two proper functions of government. +Given that he thinks he can demonstrate, easily demonstrate the advantages of representative governments to show why +is far better than any alternative. +First of all he contrasts representative democracy with what he calls enlightened despotism which is really something like places guardianship. +Now Mill concedes that the guardian, the despots might manage the affairs of the state tolerably well that there's no reason of principle why a very enlightened despot couldn't do fairly well, although Mill claims that no despot could do as well as a good democracy. +I found it hard to find Mill's arguments for this, although he seems to be, he seems to be arguing the point over several pages, but erm we get pretty much rhetorical claims and evidence and so he wants us to consider those states which have been ruled by despots with those contemporary states which have been democracies England versus Spain say and he thinks it's obvious which type of system we ought to prefer. +But he's got no, as far as I can see he's got no convincing argument that democracy will do better, but that doesn't matter because he thinks that the decisive criticism of enlightened despotism is that it won't improve the moral or intellectual well-being of the citizens, but if people are excluded from political decision making, they will have no incentive to educate themselves or morally improve themselves, or he thinks if they do, if a despot does allow for the moral improvement of the citizens, then citizens will no longer accept despotism so that despotism is in a way self-defeating here and if it one of the proper functions of government it can't survive. +No morally and intellectually well educated people will be prepared to tolerate despotism rather than democracy. +So that's Mill's argument against enlightened despotism. +More interesting is his implicit comparison with direct democracy. +Now he doesn't actually make the concession I think it's consistent of what he says, that he ought to concede that direct democracy might be better at improving the citizens, because after all the citizens have much more to do on in service of the state but his view is that direct democracy has the opposite failure to guardianship, that while it might be better at improving citizens it's absolutely hopeless in managing the affairs of the state and his reasons for that is that we need experts with experience in order to carry out the affairs of government and although these people ought ultimately to be held responsible to the people, people shouldn't sit in judgment them in every one of their decisions. +So here he has erm quite a long discussion in the fact that if you have inexperienced people, they will often make the make a quick initial assessment of a situation which is being and rejected by a more experienced person. +So the experienced person will always be able to take the inexperienced person, it's not as simple as that, but if you make the administrators responsible to the people in all their decisions, then you have as Mill says inexperience sitting in judgment on experience, ignorance sitting in judgment on knowledge. +So you have to insulate the, the administrators from direct control of the people if you, if the administrators are going to make good decisions. +The people just have to trust the administrators at a certain point, rather than trying to er second guess all of their decisions. +So a direct democracy will lead to a very inefficient running of the state. +Therefore representative democracy presents itself as the best compromise. +It can manage the affairs of the state very well and it can improve the citizens. +Well how does it do that? +Why does representative democracy improve the citizens? +Because after all critics will say if representative democracy isn't the best practical realization of democracy but simply a sham, after all remember Russo's comments on England, the people of England think they're free but they're mistaken, they're free once every five years when they elect their rulers. +Now Russo then representative democracy isn't a refinement of democracy to make it appropriate for the modern world, but a way of giving away all the merits of democracy. +Now Mill accepts that representative democracy can be as bad as Russo supposes it is, but there are aspects of Mill's views which make him sound very much like Russo as well. +For Mill it's very important that citizens are educated for their role and although participation on a na national level has to be something that can be restricted only to the few, Mill nevertheless wants active participation of the citizens in other aspects. +So for example he's Mill is very keen on the idea of local participation, that everyone should at some point in their lives play a role in local government in some level. +Also he speaks very much in favour of jury service that he thinks that everyone is liable to jury service has a number of advantages. +One is that it makes people er it gives people experience of participation which is itself an improving matter. +It makes people consider issues from an impartial moral point of view. +Also it helps one in practice for voting. +So jury service he thinks is a terrific way of improving the jurors. +He doesn't defend it as the best way of getting the correct decision, he doesn't defend it, or he doesn't solely defend it that way he doesn't defend it either on the idea that people have right to be tried by their peers for example which is the most likely defence now, but he defends jury service on the grounds of the effect it has on the jurors which is quite a novel erm . +In fact there's been some discussion of this lately, John Elston has argued that if jurors knew that that's why they were chosen to go on the jury, it would destabilize the princi the practice of it because if you knew you were going on jury just for self-education rather than to get the right results out the other end, then this wouldn't give you any way of motivating yourself properly for the jury. +Well, I'm not sure that's correct, but anyway Mill thinks that these ideas local participation of jury service are ways of getting people involved at the highest practical level of participation. +So in other words, Mill accepts the arguments of Russo the arguments of the participatory er theorists that participation in government, participation in public affairs is a good thing, people should be encouraged to participate and it has an improving effect. +The worry is, is if we allow participation above a certain level, this will lead to gross inefficiencies in a governmental process. +So there's a maximum level of participation +societies like ours. +He thinks this is an question but in small societies may be a much higher level of democratic erm intervention at all levels would be possible, but it's only in modern societies that participation on a very extensive scale becomes absolutely impossible. +Okay so this is a rough sketch of the basic outlines, now let's try and fill in a bit more details. +One question that we raised a number of times is +when people vote in this democracy, what should they be doing? +Should they be voting in their own interests, or should be they be voting out of their view of what is right, what is the good? +It's normally thought that within the utilitarian tradition people should be required to vote on their interests. +Because after all the right decision is to find in terms of general happiness and so you would have thought that voting was the best way of finding out where their general happiness lies. +So there'd be something rather odd about people voting out of moral motivation for a utilitarian because they would be voting their estimate of where the general happiness lies, rather than putting their input into the sum from which someone else can calculate where the general happiness lies. +So it's normally thought that within the utilitarian tradition, voters are required to vote their interests and then the democratic procedure tells us where the general happiness lies roughly speaking. +But Mill doesn't argue this way, Mill argues that erm allowing people to vote their interests is corrupting of them. +If people are voting in their interests, why not then sell their votes to the highest bidder? +They have no obligation to use it responsibly if their, if they can use their vote selfishly. +Rather he thinks that people ought to vote on the basis of what they think is right so he uses an with the jury service at this point. +He thinks that justice jurors should put their personal interest to one side. +So should voters, it would be rather absurd I think, well Mill thinks, that if jurors were expected to come to a decision on the basis of what they would prefer, would you prefer this person to be sent down or would you prefer them to get off. +That's not the question, the question is is it right for this person to be found guilty, is it right for this person to be found innocent? +Mill thinks that voting is to be ideally modelled on this er jury service idea so that's another reason why jury service is so important for all citizens. +All citizens need a highly concentrated er episode in their lives where all they do is think about what is right in the circumstances and this will give them good practice, good training to being an enlightened voter. +Again I'll come back to this point about motivation because it's very important later on. +So erm this is Mill's counter-motivation. +He also realizes that there are certain threats or problems with democracy. +Some of these we've considered before but I'll tell you how Mill feels on them. +One of them, this is not the first in the but one of them is that democracy may well throw up unworthy rulers. +This is the point erm, well Plato made the point that the people we most want to rule us are probably the ones that are the least likely to want to take on that duty and Ben Williams made the same point the other way round that the people who rise to the top in politics are likely to be the ones that we would least like to have governing us. +So I think I made this point before that the people who are right at the top of politics are the ones who are very good at flattery, duplicity, manipulation and so on and these, are these really the qualities we want in our government? +So, Mill thinks we need erm +Thanks. +Mill thinks we need certain safeguards to make sure that unworthy rulers don't present themselves. +One thing he says which is erm a current topic is that we should limit the election expenses of any candidate. +His thought is that how can we trust anyone who's prepared to pay their own money to get elected? +If someone is going to put off a lot of their own money in order to get into parliament, we can, then we can hardly trust them to look to the general interests once they're there, they'll want a return on their investment of some sorts. +So anyone who's putting up a lot of their own money is untrustworthy and there should be limitation on how much people can stand, erm Mill actually goes into some figures at this point and rather quaintly says erm either fifty pounds or a hundred pounds ought to be adequate and I don't know what that translates to now. +Erm, so there should be a limitation of election expenses. +In fact makes the claim that election expenses ought to be met from the public purse rather than the private purse of the candidates +tax revenues and I should think Mill would be happy with that idea. +Although erm his second idea second way of limiting the possibilities on is rather more difficult to accept now and his claim is that we shouldn't pay members of parliament, that people who go to parliament ought to be doing it out of duty and not out of er interest. +What he says is that erm you know when he was writing of six hundred and fifty eight seats in parliament, I don't know how many there are now, but he says if we allowed for people to be paid, then we have as it were six hundred and fifty eight prizes to people's six hundred and fifty eight jobs for people and he says and this is rather astonishing to hear, to read this is that it will attract adventurism of low class to er parliament if we pay members of parliament. +Well what about those people who are morally worthy, I take it when he says low class, he doesn't mean low moral class, but mean low social class as well he probably means both things actually. +What about those people of a low social class who are of a high moral class, what about them? +Well he gives the example of a contemporary member of parliament, Mister Andrew Marvel who apparently was erm, because members of parliament were not paid at this time, he was sponsored by his constituents, so they subscribed to a he was so good they managed to subscribe to and he thinks that this is the ideal solution, if someone is really worthwhile, then their constituents would be happy to pay their salary directly, rather than, than have salaried jobs. +Okay so this strikes us as a rather eccentric claim er he does qualify it, he says that there may be cases where there aren't enough people of independent means in a country to present themselves, he doesn't mean England here he means some of the dependent territories and then members of parliament should be paid compensation rather than a salary. +So in other words they should be paid the salaries they would have been got getting in whatever their other line of work would have been, rather than special rates of the job of an M P. +I mean it may well be that we have in this country we have erm pretty much Mill's system because MPs get paid relatively little bearing in mind what most of them could be getting elsewhere, so maybe we've got something like Mill's system but it strikes us as rather a bizarre suggestion that MPs shouldn't be paid to prevent adventurous and lower classes becoming MPs. +Okay so we have safeguards against unworthy rulers, much more important though Mill is worried about people voting on the wrong motives. +So I've said before that erm Mill wants people to vote just in the same way that people cast their votes in a jury on the basis of what's right. +He realizes that they can't, people can't be guaranteed to do this and he points out there are four different motivations that people might have that conflict with the er moral motivations. +First of all there's personal interest, secondly there's class interest thirdly there's rather amusingly some mean feeling in his own mind, so he has the idea that people might just be rather grumpy or something when they're going to cast their, their vote and go to some rather destructive policy. +I suppose you might think in a case now you might think that er er certain people aren't entitled to welfare benefits or something that +and vote for the parties that excludes them, but that mean the sort of thing he he doesn't make much of that. +Fourthly erm there's the problem of coercion that is some people might be forced to cast their vote one way or another or feel they're forced to cast a vote one way or another erm which is something we are less erm familiar with. +The reason why we're less familiar with that is that we have a secret ballot and so there is no way of knowing how someone has cast their vote, and so there's no way of effectively forcing someone to cast their vote one way or another. +However, Mill was against a secret ballot, Mill thought votes ought to be cast publicly and the reason for this is that he thought people ought to be voting on their view of what is right and so therefore they ought to be publicly accountable. +People are much less likely to vote in their own interests, much less likely to vote in their class interests if other people know how they're voting. +Mill also thinks this is a very good way of introducing female suffrage at this point which he is very much in favour of, if you had a, if you had a vote on it should if you vote if er there was a vote among the male electors about whether women should be given the vote and there was a public ballot, then it's very unlikely they would vote against the extension of franchise because their wives and daughters would be able to see what they've done, so he thinks that erm the only reason for having a secret ballot is that you're rather ashamed of what you're doing and that if you have a public ballot people will vote much more responsibly. +Now Mill realizes that the objection to this is the last problem coercion, that if people's votes are known, then some people might be able to put pressure on others to vote one way rather than another and as I said why the secret ballot was brought in in the first place. +For Mill's view is that coercion is now less of a worry than people voting on their class interest or their personal interest. +Er here erm you can form your own views about whether Mill's right or wrong, I mean that the situation of a secret ballot was brought in to erm overcome as one where the local industrist industrialist who employed half the member of the town was also standing for parliament. +Now erm in this case would your job be safe if your vote was known and you didn't vote for your boss? +I mean it seems to me in those cases a secret ballot is highly desirable and coercion would be more of a danger than people voting er from the mo wrong moral motivation. +But it might just be that we can't have both and we can't ensure that people vote from the right from moral motivation rather than personal interest and we can't ensure vote +on coercion +erm at the same time so perhaps other remedies are necessary. +Now the other remedies have is one which is rather distinct of Mill +that he thinks that erm of all of these forced motivations class interest is the most damaging and he argues there's a remedy for this, we'll see why it's a remedy in a minute, that certain people ought to be given more than one vote so that although everyone should have some votes, not everyone should have the same number of votes. +In particular he thinks the educated should have at least two votes, he doesn't say how many erm that's a matter determined case-by-case I take it, erm erratically it could be a thousand votes I mean he doesn't rule that out, he doesn't say it has to be more than one er two, but erm his view is that the educated to a specially privileged in a specially privileged position because they are erm more able to use their vote sensibly or to be given more than one vote, so we need now there's going to be a question erm how do you know who the educated people are to make such suggestions, anyone with a university degree will be pleased to hear gets more than one vote on Mill's system. +Anyone who enters the liberal profession so accountancy, medical and so on erm he made some other suggestions which we'll look at shortly. +But there is something of a tension in Mill's view, because he thinks that erm it's very important that if there is plural voting then the people who only have one vote should be prepared to accept the situation, so that the reasons why these people are given extra votes should be reasoned that the public, the uneducated accept past critics have pointed out if that's going to be the case, why is it necessary to give these people extra votes, give the educated actual votes, because if the uneducated accept that the decisions of the educated are worth more than their own decisions, the opinions of the educated are worth more than the opinions of the uneducated, if they really do accept that, what's to stop them just following the decisions of the educated in their own vote? +Why not simply take advice? +So there's no reason why these people should be given more votes rather their superior status can be recognized by giving them more informal influence. +I was actually astonished to find Mill making exactly this argument against another proposal in erm a later chapter because he considers a possibility and some people have put forward the view apparently, I haven't heard of this, erm in the version that Mill discusses, that the two stage action where we vote for people who then go to vote for the members of parliament so the individual people don't vote directly for members of parliament but they vote for people who then have elections an election among themselves. +This is rather like the American system of presidential elections except that in the American system, the people who are voted for are tied to a particular candidate, so it's really just erm a convoluted way of having a direct system rather than a genuinely indirect system here. +But Mill considers what, what reasons could there possibly be for having this two stage process. +The arguments given in favour is that we vote for the wise and then the wise go on to make a proper final decision about who's best. +Mill says exactly what I just said in response of him that is if the people are prepared to accept these why what's to stop them consulting and asking for advice about how they should cast their vote and so Mill later on gives a response to his own suggestion about plural voting in effect without realizing that what he's done. +Anyway that's not important, the important thing is that he makes this, this idea that the educated should be erm given plural votes, in order to protect democracy being distorted by class interest. +Now the most important threat to democracy and the way in which class interest may establish itself is Mill thinks through stupidity and this is the most er challenging threat to democracy. +The, the, the numerical majority he says may just not have the intelligence to make the right decisions and what he's particularly concerned about is that the uneducated poor who he calls the numerical majority will vote to equalize property. +Now his argument against this is not that actual right to property, but it's actually against the interests of the uneducated poor to equalize property +if property is equalized then the economy will so he uses some sort of incentive argument here and maybe some sort of undertones here that inequalities are necessary to make the worse off better off than they would have been without them, but he thinks the uneducated poor may well be too stupid +to understand this so they may go to their immediate selfish interest rather than their long-term interest. +There's a further point that the effects of the policy may not strike in the first generation anyway, it may be long-term before er equalization of property has the effect and other things so these people might, might vote in their own class interest against the interest of future generations. +Now Mill seems to be very unsure what to do about this because he doesn't want to say that the poor should be disenfranchised, because after all everyone is entitled to their say in government, but he does seem to be worried that if the poor are given an equal say or the uned uneducated poor are given an equal say, then they will make a very bad decision, a decision which is against their own interests and this is one reason why he favours plural voting because he recognizes that the numerical majority might make a erm wrong decision, so we should make sure that the numerical majority don't have sway in a democratic process by giving another client more weight in it so he seems to between wanting to disenfranchise them altogether which he seems to consider and just emasculating their vote by giving other people more votes. +In fact one thing he says er which might make you doubt his motives somewhat is that the reason for giving people more than one vote is that they're more educated, but in general there is also a rough correlation between property ownership and education and so there's a good reason to give the property owners more than one vote, people who own a lot of property more than one vote. +Now he says that someone who doesn't hold much property can prove that they're educated they should get the extra votes too, but you don't seem, you don't have to prove that you're er educated if you're rich you just get the votes anyway because that's a good . +Now actually Mill did put the his erm this proposal forward, he was a member of parliament for a few years and he was trying to get this discussed in parliament. +No one seemed very interested in it. +Well what this springs up is the issue, one of the issues we started with which is democracy in the tyranny of the majority is what Mill recognizes is is that a maj well he claims to be concerned that the majority will make a decision which is against the interests of everyone, but he's equally concerned about the issue that the majority might make a decision which is against the interests just of a picked-on minority, people with unpopular views, people who hold er members of a different religion and so on. +So erm Mill wants to protect minority from within the democratic procedure, that is he wants to set up erm a system of democracy which is as it were proof against majority corruption. +One way in which he does that he thinks is by plural voting, that you give the educated more than one vote, he says we have to make sure the educated don't form their own class with their own class interests, but, but giving the educated a bigger say will lead us to make better decisions he thinks. +But he also endorses a very elaborate system of proportional representation with a single-transferable vote erm this is in the chapter called voting erm it seems to me actually his system is incoherent, but he doesn't think that, I mean he argues very strongly in favour of it and various it. +His idea is that you can vote if if the voter in your constit if a person you vote for in your own constituency loses, you can then switch your vote to anyone else in the country and erm you can have a list of maybe ten or twenty people and erm you will so you'll hand in your ballot paper with all these names on, signed ballot paper because it has to be public you can hand in your signed ballot paper with all these names on and if your own candidate loses, then er your vote goes to your second person and if that person loses it goes to the third and so on. +The incoherence I think is that you can't ever say that anyone has lost because you don't know what's happening in the second and third and fourth erm batch, so I can't see how this system is meant to work, Mill seems to be fairly confident that it will. +So he has an interesting idea that we can set up democratic procedures to protect the minority within those procedures so that tyranny of the majority is something that afflicts only certain types of democracies, but if we have other types of democracies then we can protect the minority and the idea for proportional representation is often claimed in this light, but actually it doesn't work as an idea, because although it allows a minority to be represented,represented is a different from being protected and so even if there's a member of parliament with the one member of parliament with your unpopular views, that doesn't mean that your unpopular views won't be made illegal say, because the fact that there's one member of parliament won't mean that +so his procedure doesn't work. +There are other ways people have tried to protect the minority, one is by saying that the, that you can generate a certain set of rights from within the democratic procedure in a different way, that is if democracies flourish people need certain liberties, people need to express their own opinions, people need to be able to do what erm assemble where they need to and so on but more common is the view that democracy should be limited by constitutional would present the minority and this is a view that Mill doesn't really defend in representative government although it seems to be very close to his view and on liberty, that is we limit the spear that this government has control over so we can't, so in this view erm democracy is given a very limited role. +It's very interesting to note that in contemporary political philosophy there is almost no room left for democratic decision making because in most theories that we're given, more or less everything is already decided at a constitutional level I mean think of theory of justice, it's the theory of justice that decides the basic nature of a constitution so the role of members of a government is simply to interpret and apply the constitution so they can make the most efficient tax policies given the basic constitution, but no individual has the authority to challenge that constitution and change it by democratic means. +To it's even worse I mean there, there doesn't even seem to be a government in the there's just a police force and an army and no one making political decisions, so it's a peculiarity of recent political philosophy there seems to be no room left for the democratic process to do much apart from administer, so the democracy is given a very minor role. +Okay so I think that erm some of Mill's system he has given us and accounted them a type of theory of democracy but seems to me deeply by between two ideas, one is that everyone will have a say in government and the other is they shouldn't be allowed decisive say if they are going to say the wrong thing so that on the one hand we have democratic equality of a source, on the other hand we have an independent theory of the good and a democratic process should be allowed to disrupt the good of the nation and Mill just doesn't seem to be able to put these two elements in erm proper coherent fashion. +So what should we conclude about our own system on the well we do have a representative democracy here, it's very unlike Mill's recommended scheme. +We have no idea what people are meant are meant to be doing when they're voting, this was a problem I raised are people meant to be expressing their interest, are people meant to be voting like members of a jury? +We're not told and it doesn't say on your ballot paper please be sure to remember you're voting on what you think is right rather than what is in your personal interest, you were just asked to vote. +So how can we defend the system that we've got? +Well, it seems that none of the arguments that have been used so far would come close to defending the type of system that we've got. +Now critics of contemporary systems say so much for the worse for contemporary system, we have to move to one of the other models, maybe suitably amended and only then will we be truly free and equal. +The best I think we can say about our scheme is something that Brian Barry argues. +It's in a paper I didn't put on the reading list because most of it is not relevant, it's called Is Democracy Special? and this in his collective papers. +What Barry says is simply this that suppose we accept the point that authority structures are now necessary, that we couldn't have anarchy we have to have +people in control. +Well in a modern world we've lost the faith that certain people are appointed by God to do this for us, or especially naturally fitted to do it, so how are we going to accept the rule of some people rather than others? +Well he thinks the only way that modern will accept the rule of one person rather than another is if they think they're somehow there as a result of their own action, so we'll only accept the rule of erm our leaders if we think we put them there and we take them back again, we put them there and can recall them and this for Barry is the only merit that contemporary democratic policy democratic erm systems that it allows us to think of our rulers as having some legitimate claim to rule. +Without democracy we wouldn't be able to say who should rule, with democracy we can we can say these people because we voted for them and that's it, we can't say these people interests we can't say that these people act in common good although if they do very badly we'll try and recall them, all we can say is they're there we need, what we need is authority structures, we need the structures more than the people occupying the roles, someone's got to occupy the roles and this is the only way we've got of appointing them. +So on that very depressing note, er I'll leave we've got a few minutes for questions or objections if anyone wants to, we've got some head shaking. +Right. +Er. +Right, I'm not sure how +Anyone else? +Based on? +Well everyone has, everyone is entitled to vote and he also thinks that if the time is right when unmarried women were property and he thought it wouldn't be long before married women to hold property too, so he was also he wanted to reform the Married Women's Property Act. +What's your own view in a nutshell the way forward to democracy? +Don't have one, sorry. +Er I was, I was hoping to find one but er er yep +Right so there's a thought that somehow democracy ought to be self-justifying erm the well I mean quite a long way actually two types of justification of democracy, instrumental and erm Mill is defending democracy surely instrumentally and we might want to say democracy has its justification of freedom and equality. +But we still need to know how, I mean maybe in a participatory democracy we can defend freedom and equality to the system not in it seems absurd to say that democracy we have now is a way of embodied freedom I mean maybe weak notion of equality, but nothing +No this is the last lecture. +Right, well that seems to be it. +Thanks very much. + +listen in to everything which is +Oh right. +said. +If I can get you to scrawl your signature and today's date which is the twenty fifth on there. +Right, is your signature readable? +Ah could you print your name +it's just that she needs your name, the fact that you're male,th an approximate age within five years. +that information. +Erm basically +Oh right er twenty five plus. +I don't know why people are a bit +touchy about their ages to be perfectly honest. +You know. +erm what is your job basically? +You're a +Well I suppose I'm a a blind salesman. +Salesman +Blind salesman, that sounds good doesn't it. +And fitter. +I fit it as well. +And fitter. +Right. +So I have to make sure it's measured right. +You can't blame anybody else for anything can you . +Okay that's lovely thanks very much. +Right. +Right,it's not gonna +fall down on your plants. +If you get the middle about the middle of it. +Dead in the middle, yeah. +Or alive in the middle as they say. +You want that supported . +Right. +That is right thank you. +with the lights fading, it's gonna be five o'clock in half an hour's time, feed the dogs just before five and then see you you see. +I was a bit quicker in Newark than I thought. +It's a good place to be quicker in. +delicate measurements. +Yeah well we don't want it brushing on your +The trouble is I'm quite sure that the plasterers never did that. +They they just slop it up don't they. +Yeah. +There is a bit of difference actually. +Yeah. +Yes there is quite a bit of difference +Well we realized that when we had the windows changed. +Yes I +Mm. +I haven't quite finished wallpapering, I don't think that's gonna make a lot of difference is it to the . +Right, I've got a range of prices. +Erm +Essentially we need to know what what you can do and what you can't do and +Right. +What's av We've never ever bought a blind. +Right. +Now what kind of colour were you looking for? +White. +White. +It must be white. +I don't think anything else is going to . +Er that's our reduced one. +That would be sixty nine pounds. +Mhm. +What are they made of? +Erm well they're usually +Or doesn't that matter. +Well i a they're all polyester or +Yeah. +erm some are fibreglass. +. +Yeah. +. These are the washable ones. +Mm. +These are the most expensive. +Mhm. +These have just come in in the last year. +Bu I mean I'd only advise those if you have like er you know, children with grubby hands and +Or smokers. +Or sm whatever yeah, where it's gonna get really dirty . +And we don't have children with grubby hands . +No it's just you. +Well you see with those you can stick them in the washing machine. +Mm. +And your dryer and you can iron them. +Right, these are your whites. +Erm I'll tell you how we price them. +Erm the higher up it goes, the more expensive it is. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Mhm. +With anything. +That's a C you see, that would one +Mhm. +Erm that's an A, that would be ninety eight ad so on. +Aha right. +Yeah. +have a look +I quite like that sort of texture actually, that's you know that's quite +Oh yes yes that's quite nice that is. +Which is a D. +Yeah. +Mm. +See it's quite nice but +We've got just a bit of sun. +. +I can't see the difference between that one and the one that was . +Oh yes there is, this is slightly closer weave. +Mm. +It just depends how difficult they are to weave and that that usually makes them you know, more expensive. +And if it's a difficult pattern. +Well we wanted something that you know, wasn't just completely plain white, that had got either +Yeah. +a bit of texture or a pit of pattern in it when the light's shining through it. +We've got some beiges as well that a few are quite sort of close to white. +Yeah. +I mean if you're interested in one I'll take one out because +Well +if you hold them up to the light then you see them +Yes and then you see through That one's got a +You'll have to hold it up to +Yeah. +in front of that light then +Mm. +you can see it +Mm. +Yes this is probably see them at night time. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yes. +I quite quite like that that one. +Which I think is the same. +Well on theirs I'm allowed to give you a discount, I bring that down to a B. The higher up you're going. +Yeah. +I mean I can get a bit more off you see. +Right. +So I can give you a B a B price for that one. +It's difficult to say well I mean suppose with all of these, the the light the sunlight is going to +Mm. +is gonna be diffused enough isn't it. +Mm. +Yeah yeah. +Cos you can see +Yes it's +see quite a bit through. +Mm. +that one. +Well that would make +Yes you can yes. +But it's it it would still +denser. +it would still you know erm stop stop the sunlight from you know, +Mm. +spoiling your T V programs or something. +Yeah. +Or stopping it from rotting the furniture. +Yeah my main er our main problem is the +Oh right yeah. +carpet because this this stuff does fade rather. +You're probably better off with something with a bit more texture to it then. +Mm. +A bit denser. +more open weave isn't it. +thicker +I mean they will they will protect your furniture it's just that they'll take all the battering then from the sun. +Mm. +Mm. +I know white will probably d discolour a bit won't it. +Over +It's erm +a long period of time, I mean we give a guarantee of two years on material. +Mm. +And a ten year guarantee on the headrail. +So +Mm +If in the future you wanted just to change your louvres, +Yeah. +you know, you can do that. +You can do it that way and it works out a lot cheaper. +H how much do the louvres cost as a proportion +of the +Erm I think it's about half. +Yeah. +It's about half yeah. +So you could you could replace the blind if you redecorated and changed the colour +Oh yeah. +scheme or something like that for about half the price. +Yeah. +It doesn't look like +Yeah they don't call them other than beige and white and . +I'm assuming that the that when they're actually made, when they're cut, they are actually cut absolutely dead straight on the the grain of the erm the weave. +Yeah. +or otherwise you you know +No no they're gonna be dead straight. +Er well it would be absolutely wouldn't they ? +Yes yes. +It's just that some of these of course, the ones that have got like a square textured, +No you wouldn't get any sort +They'd look a bit funny if they were sort of +They would they would look weird if they weren't exactly. +Mm. +Oh no they'd they'd be cut like you see them there . +Perfect yeah. +If I got something and it wasn't +The price includes VAT, +Yeah. +includes the fitting. +What's the waiting time? +The weighting? +Wh +How long to wait? +Oh the waiting time. +Sorry I thought you were talking about the weights on the +Oh no no no. +Erm it's two to three weeks +Yeah. +maximum. +Erm if it's if you're desperate for them we can rush it in +Yeah. +a bit bit quicker. +Mm. +That one is not bad . +It's slightly it's slightly I don't know I I still like that one actually I mean w +There probably isn't no. +That's liable to catch the dust a bit more than that I suppose. +Mm. +Well you've got to brush on the +When they Yeah +As long as you do them fairly regularly, you're not going to have any problems as far as erm +That's acrylic and the other one you were looking at was fibreglass. +Mm. +Yes it yes it +No I still like that one actually. +Yeah. +Well it's you know, it's up to you you can look at whatever. +I'd give you the discount on that as well. +The lakes one was an E +No it was a it was an E I think. +Oh an E. +I think it was an E +That would be a hundred and fifty two,two hundred and thirty eight. +I'm not so keen on that much of a St I still prefer that. +It's difficult isn't it when you've got a +Well too much choice +bit of choice. +is is is fatal isn't it ? +We've got Spice and we've got Snowdrop and the expense what was the expensive one? +Dune. +. +You like that? +Yeah. +Dune. +It's just got some . +Yeah it wouldn't wouldn't matter if it was cut slightly off square either would it. +Well it's not quite +and you get the dunes effect when you've +Mm. +when you've got them all up . +Yeah. +Oh they th +Well of course you will won't you because you're gonna go right the way across. +Always assuming they match together. +Well no they wouldn't match together but that doesn't matter. +Erm might might be a problem for you. +No it wouldn't be a problem might be a problem for a my mother +Er your mother yes. +Mm. +Mm. +So what would that +Well I'll drop that down to a C, that'd be a hundred and fourteen. +A hundred and fourteen. +Mm. +Cos that looks quite a nice one. +Mm. +I want something really that's not absolutely completely dead plain. +Mm. +Well +Because it's quite a bit window. +Yeah. +I think mind you the rest of the walls, everything else is white so +Want something that's a bit interesting in your living room don't you. +Yeah. +You know, depending on what kind of decor you have. +But you've got white walls +Yes. +Well I I don't think we can go on any other sort of colour. +Mm. +Cos I think a big expanse of something that matched this would be awful really. +Well I was just I was just thinking, if you had a patterned paper and then you had you're pattern in your +Yeah. +your blind as well +Well yes, I think we'll have to stick to white . +I think that's . +The background . +Mm. +well we've got some sort of sorting out and thinking to do haven't we? +Yeah, what about the erm oh what do you call the top bit of the rail? +Oh the the rail +The erm. +Yes erm. +Wh which side do do do they go to the side? +They actually go, you can have them at either side, +Yeah. +erm you can have your controls at either side, the bunch going to either side. +And you can +Can you have it going from the middle? +You can have the bunch splitting. +Cos it being a big window I think +Yeah. +it's better. +I'll just tell you about if you have it splitting. +Mhm. +Erm the two middle louvres that come together will overlap slightly more than the others. +Yeah. +Right. +So the shadow w when the sun's shining +You can see a slightly thicker one. +becomes sl er slightly larger. +Mm. +That's the only er difference with those. +But if er if it all going to one side I think it's going to be take up half the window won't it . +I think it could be very heavy here wouldn't it. +Mm. +look better going. +It wouldn't quite take up it wouldn't take up half the window . +Wouldn't it? +No. +But a fair amount. +It also depends if you have your windows open and you've got them each side and a bit of a wind, they'll be flapping . +Yeah. +Mm. +think about that as well. +Mm I I I still think the middle. +You want it to open from the middle? +Yeah. +It's this sense of proportion isn't it? +No it's not really what I prefer. +Yes. +Right. +And what about the bottoms? +Presumably they're chained . +They're they're they're all chained together +Mm. +with weights. +And they they go a hundred and eighty +Yeah. +degrees? +That's right yeah. +Cos obviously that's quite necessary . +Mm yeah. +The way the sun comes. +Which end do you want to have the controls? +Well it would have to be this end. +You want the controls this end? +No no sorry same end as the other one, same end yes the same end . +Yeah it's a bit more difficult to get in there isn't it. +Do you want to order now or do you want a quote? +Could you quote ? +Probably the best is a quote . +And then we'll +Cos we've got one more person to talk to +Right. +yet. +Okey-doke. +. +if you can give us the the two alternatives for the the Dunes one and the Spice +Oh I'd better just er . +So it's the Dunes is the +That one. +that one. +The dunes is the preferred one. +Is the preferred one. +And then there's the Spice. +Mm. +And was it the Snowdrop? +No. +just those two? +Just those two. +I like the texture of that other one . +Which one? +That well the . +The Spice one. +Spice one but er +Yeah. +You like the pattern of the Dunes one. +Well no it's not that I just think it's the I don't know you can see through it more. +Yeah. +I +Is it Mr ? +yeah. +As in the flower. +And the address again please. +. +And your phone number? +is . +Why am I saying all these . +With the er white headrail or chocolate brown? +White. +White? +White . +That doesn't make any difference to price does it? +No. +What width are the are the vanes of the the louvres. +Er they're five inch. +Yeah. +These are three and a half so they'd be slightly longer. +Yeah yeah. +Slightly wider. +Mhm. +Well I hope they will be slightly longer. +. +Yeah. +Right . +You want it split? +Yeah. +And you want it er controls on the +Left. +And the other one was Spice White. +Right I'll write this out again and if you decide to go ahead, +Yeah. +then just cross the one out you don't want. +Okay. +Mhm. +Yeah. +Otherwise you get two. +Yeah. +Which could be quite fun. +Well you you'd have no problem with sun penetration then would you. +No you're right dear. +No. +That would be +We already have a roller blind on the outside +I see +which is useful for taking the heat off the window itself in the Summer. +Yeah. +But it doesn't have any effect +It doesn't take the light off. +. +I mean that's got a very open weave texture. +Mm. +Ten Right, I'll let you fill that in when you're +Okay yeah. +It's a Newark phone number, yeah? +Right. +There's a little bit more for you. +competition on the toes. +Right I'll give you these. +Right. +Erm if you want to go ahead with it, pull the top one off, +Yeah. +pop it into one of these prepaid envelopes +Right. +with the deposit in. +And it'll be twenty pound deposit. +Twenty pounds . +Mm. +Yeah. +And then as soon as our office gets that it'll be two to three weeks. +Right. +That says plus thirty, that's that's inclusive . +No Well I'll just put it on. +Thought thought I'd better ask. +Yes yes . +Thank you. +and that'll be attached and when we come to fit it, if you keep hold of the one you keep +Yeah. +you needn't sign that now +It looks a bit complicated but +No no. +No not really. +got the idea. +Well that's marvellous thank you. +I've been thinking about these blinds for such a long time. +Yeah. +Really just I mean a roller blind's just too the window's too wide for a roller blind. +And then at least you can see through while you're shading the sun from that direction and then +That's right yeah. +the other direction. +seemed to be the answer. +Well thank you very much. +Yes, you've got your measure. +I've got my measure yeah. +Yeah. +I've just well and truly broken mine, you know I chipped the end of the +Yeah. +tape on the it went and did it again on me now and it's well and truly gone I'll have to buy another one. +It was a nice idea. +put this back. +Oh don't worry it's very very it's very easy. +There you go. +They're all on rollers these days. +Oh right. +Right thank you very much indeed. +Hello there goes the phone . +I'll answer it dear +Right okay. + +Come in, come in, come in. +nice to see you. +Well what can we do for you today? +Oh, I've a infection in my gum Dr . +In your gum? +Up here. +Yeah. +tablets and noticed that, I don't know,. +Let's have a look and see what they've done to you. +Aye, the Sofradex not doing very much for that is it? +No, I've never taken them, I've just, I stopped taking them. +Aye, I don't think they're doing very much, do you. +You see I've had it here, I take it quite often, I take +Right. +sores, Dr gave me these to clear them, and it does clear them up. +Eventually. +Eventually, +Right . +but I was getting bacteria and germ, you know, +Mhm. +and I'd rather so I so I put a description in, asked for a description yesterday, +Right. +cos that would give the rest of my +Right. +my things. +So she said it wouldn't be done till tomorrow morning, but I need something, +Right. +And I've been up till, I've been paining me all night Doctor , +Aye. +I'm just wondering if it's my teeth or that it's just my blood that's doing it . +I think I think it might be s the the teeth, it'd be worth getting the er dentist to have a wee look at your your plate, +Mhm. +because there might be a wee rough +It seems to be catching up here. +Aye, might be a wee rough bit in +It was all rubbing, and really painful all night Dr . +And will I take these Sofradex? +Yes, yes, keep on with those just now. +And +I was going to take them, I was going to take them, and I said, Oh I'd better, I'd better see Dr first . +Aye, get Daktarin erm gel and put that on +Mhm. +three times a day between meals. +Do I just spread it on my plate, you know? +Aye, just a wee drop on your +A wee drop, on +on your finger +and just cotton bud it and rub it ? +and and rub it round top of your plate, just put straight from +Awfully painful. +Oh aye because you're right into the flesh. +It is. +Right into the flesh. +Do I take these as they're prescribed here Doctor ? +Yes, aye, two fou one or two four times a day. +Yes, one four times a day. +Fine, yeah, aye . +Just take, just take, I was gonna take them, I says,I couldn't stand the pain any longer, +Yeah. +it really was, put me off food and everything Dr . +Aye, oh yes, when you can't, when you can't eat it's not much fun. +Here we are now. +And how's, how's young Dr doing, is he? +Dr , is he doing alright ? +haven't seen him, it's Dr I think that's attended me the last time. +Aye. +I haven't seen him, I think I've doc seen Dr once. +It was a wee, it's it was last year when you saw him I think, Dr +No. +, was it not? +No because I got my gallbladder out in January. +Aye. +It's it was before +So +that that you'd seen him. +Aye. +Seen that much +That looks like Dr . +Ah I seen . +That's right. +Aye, it was November, +November. +the last time you saw Dr +Oh it was +Aye, well I seen him, He came up to see me when I was in , +Mhm. +when I was in getting my gall bladder removed. +It's turned you into a human being yet? +Oh +No. +Will I just pout the gel on or +Yes. +can I? +Just just put the gel, don't don't wash your mouth out with anything. +No, I was using some, I was washing with a mouthwash in the morning. +No, +Oraldene. +no. +No? +No. +Leave it, leave it alone, +Leave it? +leave it alone. +Use your +Yes, aye, just use your gel and your your er Sofradex tablets, yeah +sofradex tablets, just take what's in the +just take what's . +I seen Dr , Monday, he was a clinic for before I went beck, a week on Friday for injections. +Again? +Again. +Absolutely. +In the bin. +That's the best place for it. +took him two reactions, +Aha. +to get platelet, to get platelets, two reactions . +I must have screamed. +Away and yourself. +Right +Thanks very much Doctor, thank you. +Bye Mrs , cheerio now. + +Right, erm, eighteenth of January, er, Department of Finance and Administration Cascade Meeting. +Er, Great North House, Northern Development Company. +O K Marion, would you care to kick off? +Yes, O K, erm, I brought what I thought would be a help from last week. +Did your report back?we didn't have a meeting the first week, did we? +Marion? and I wasn't in the last week so I doubt whether +Do you want one on last week?, +It's all there I assume, +O K, right, O K, yes +Erm, the quarterly report went out towards the end of that first week, erm, with the annual finance statements, erm, we're ple , quite encouraging because of the erm, S and E enquiries, were actually done on his proportion for once. +Only just, but, because er, a hundred and eleven, if the enquiry's a hundred and six or constitutions, which is quite good, and obviously December was really quiet but then that's standard anyway, because , quite possibly not because it was sort of erm, he's shown with an which didn't +So it's something folded back on one side yes,? +I mean it's not that vital to me, but I hadn't +Yes +Yes. +, but I'm not surprised, so, erm, in our previous visit they did give us +Then was down in Middlesbrough for a couple of days that week, and er, I think amused everybody by calling it miserable all the time, I dread to think what . +I told you how he was on the phone that day, I mean, he hadn't the foggiest idea of what, what he was doing or where he was going, I don't know. +I think he got on er, quite well down there, because he'd spent a few days up here he had a better idea of what he wanted to ask, and what he wanted to talk about and so on, but erm, only because his deadline's and +do you want to ring? +Ah, right, I don't, I think it's now been called regional Christmas Day +Makes a lot more sense, O K +At Mercury, he clocked the sponsorship erm, late last year. +Right, I must get some literature actually from Barry because as you know, it, it, we can't get it all out of the now, +Right, oh and Phil went to the Stoke conference on that Thursday and Friday. +He got bored silly and considered it a complete waste of time. +Which I did try to tell +Erm, I seem to remember that's the day that East Anglia kind of just disappeared in +Mm, yes, yes. +That's right, +I was supposed to have a meeting on with erm, a couple of guys from the British Coal Enterprise down in Middlesbrough with , but unfortunately again the weather caught all of them out and they decided not to come, but didn't occur to them to say they wouldn't come, so I sat down there for an hour, and eventually managed to find a phone number and get in contact and the guy was still there, and he said oh no I'm not coming up. +This was like quarter to twelve, he should have been there at eleven o'clock. +No he got stuck in London the night before because of the bad weather, and he started saying oh I'm sorry I don't think I'm going to be able to make it. +Well I said, I was a bit concerned, I said it would be nice if you could let us know and +Especially since you travel er, er, twenty or thirty to get there. +Yes, that's right, yes, I mean until you get there. +I mean he knew that because he'd contacted me up here and I said well, to make it easier for you we could meet in Middlesbrough, save you coming up from er, Mansfield. +I said well, it cuts the, it cuts the journey in half then. +I wasn't too happy about that but never mind. +Erm, what else, last week I had a meeting with Mike and Yvonne from D T I and Phil. +I was looking forward to talk a bit about er, what they're doing er, in the way of seminars and so on this year and how we can tie in with it, and how we're going to erm, actually take over the forum plan for Eurofile. +It's typical, they just accepted it all, so it didn't really achieve a great deal, but Mike told me quite a lot of things that I don't really have any idea, or I didn't know about, +What achievement of financial business will four year plan, will it make anything else? +I can't see that they can afford to be a high profile company? +They're going to erm, they're going to give the money towards running a forum, but not a great deal, and then it doesn't even cost that much, it just really a question of erm, mailshots and twice yearly events or whatever. +You don't think it'll be once they put the money +Yes, so it's, you know, it's like two mailshots up once a quarter or whatever,minutes, and I'm paying for a lunch. +you're thinking of direct costs, but erm, Phil was going to ask Jeff if he would chair it, and also if he'd be willing, to be sort of editor in chief, of Eurofile, so that was yesterday, and I haven't seen Phil since, don't know what happened with that and went to him that it was a briefing meeting. +yes +This individual just about won, in fact it was over by ten past two. +Yes, Oh I, yes, I can see here, yes, that's only two +It's more than I saw of him. +Mhm, +Why I'm not sure +Walkies +But erm, yes, so I still don't know what's happening with that yet, and I'm waiting also for them to confirm a date for this first sort of Do Business in France seminar, that we're going to help them with, which was originally going to be February, and is now going to be March. +We think it was going to be the seventh and the eighth and the ninth, and they've told Newcastle City it's the ninth, but she was meant to confirmed last Wednesday, and she's still not. +So erm, I've had a word +Are export involved in this, I mean it seems quite if they're not? +Mm, yes, but the trouble is they're not going to be interested in Europe, so they're not, Western Europe . +They don't know how useful it would be but anyway, they said there, there's, it's a slightly odd event because it's actually going to be just in the Civic Centre, and er, and kind of tacking on some workshops and things, so I'm going to help her with workshops and have a display stand and so on but other than that, we've not really got any direct input into it, because it is very much, sort of, you know, this is how you do business in France, these are the financial problems, type of thing. +It's just a good workshop,yes +Which I was for shying off anyway, because I don't think it's any of our, our business. +I'm mean they've got export people that know about that, and E C people one of those things. +Yes, that's right, so I said you know, it's on a general level, I said yes, fine. +But, er, other people start bringing up sort of problems with the French tax situation on such and such a structure of company or whatever, which is not anything we want to get involved with. +So I had a meeting with Dailey to talk about the workshops and so on, so we've bashed out the format and er, and what we think we'd like to do, but it's partly dependent on D T I, because it is their event, and we want to be seen to hijack it. +Erm, I had a meeting with Ian and erm,Do , Dorothy. +Mhm, and told them that you wouldn't be your present arrangement +Erm, yes, quite +They took it remarkably well really, but er, I think there needs to be soft There must be have contingency, because Anne'd go up the wall over that. +You know, I don't know it was sort of well, have a little bit of a boss at Bill then, as a restraining influence +in the past +I'm no help either, I did sort of wonder what she'd say but she's. +They've been sort of so falsely jolly in the past, it sickens me. + +Get into Microfit, when you're in the data input menu I'd like you to call up the file Q M four FIT +Q M four FIT file file . +If you just look at the er the sheet, that we've handed out, they loaded from er from the computer it's that data that's in front of you, right, we've got three, three series, right, it's times data, right, from nineteen twenty three to nineteen forty five, right and the three variables are, textile consumption,United States er real, sorry is benevolence of the U S, so it's textile consumption,capita, real income er per capita income to be adjusted through inflation, so constant money terms and what the relative price of textiles P erm the price of textiles relative to the general level er the general price level. +Okay what we're going to be doing is estimating a demand function so we can specify the textile consumption as a function of real incomes per capita and also relative prices, alright. +A priori, what sign would we expect on those two variables? +Say the income, what sign would you expect to observe? +Yeah positive providing textiles are a normal good, you should observe positive er income consumption response okay. +How about prices?what code, what sign do we expect on the er the price variable there? +Yeah negative, right, textiles rise faster, the price of textiles rises faster than the general price level, the real increase in textile prices, therefore, we'd expect providing the first law of demand holds, that we get a negative response consumption, right. +So that's what we expect a priori a positive coefficient, a negative, coefficient, positive on income, negative on prices. +What we are actually going to do today is to look using this data, is to look at structural stability, right, we're going to ask ourselves are the parameters that we estimate over the entire sample, are they constant over time. +There's no point in estimating a model if in reality those coefficients are not fixed, they're jumping all over the place. +Right with those parameters, so if you just look at the er coefficional income, if we estimate the coefficional income to be nought point five right, over the entire sample, the then subsequently find out if that coefficient varies from year to year from minus six plus ten, right, having a one point estimate, right, er oh that coefficient is not going to be particularly useful to us, we want to know er whether our coefficients remain reasonably constant throughout our sample period, particularly if we're using this er equation to make out of sample predictions, right. +The first thing we must er be sure of is that the coefficients within the sample are reasonably, er reasonably constant, right. +If they are not reasonably constant, then not only is the model er a poor one, right, within sample but it can't really be used for out of sample predictions, because although on average er our coefficient that we estimate it might be nought point five, then the out of sample could well be minus six or something like that. +Right, so you need to know that our model is characterized by constant parameters over the sample. +Now the data that we've got here has been artificially generated. +the last six observations of it has, right, the first six observations, sorry the er the first twenty odd observations are real, right, that they haven't been made up but the last six observations have been made up, right, to er to illustrate structural change. +We will assume that we don't know that there is structural change in this data, although a priori, we might expect it. +Why, why might we expect structural change to occur in this example? +Anything in particular? +Okay, yeah, that's right, this s this series a particularly volatile period of economic history in the nineteen thirties, the Great Depression, in addition what's at the end of the series? +Yeah the Second World War, right, so er I can tell you now that in actual fact there's no structural change during the thirties here but there is structural change during the war. +Textile consumption, or the parameters that we estimate during peacetime no longer er explain textile consumption during wartime. +Right, I'm going to go through methods of how we can detect structural change by the non constant parameters. +The first thing we'll do is look at the data, alright, so if you go from the action menu into option one, right, we're going to plot er go through to the transform edit +option, go into the data processing environment, right, where your three variables are listed T C I P. +Right, if you just give the command Plot T C Plot space T C then press the return key +right, that's textile consumption over our sample. +Now it's not immediately obvious from that time series that there's a structural break, right, textile consumption hasn't fallen dramatically, right, or risen dramatically over the post war period, oh sorry du during the er the war period. +Nevertheless we can show that there is significant structural change er in the model that we'll +estimate. +Right, so by looking at the graph, I am just trying to impress upon you that structural change cannot always be spotted simply by looking at the data right, anyway, let's now move on to estimate our first model. +What we are going to be doing is trying to explain that series, right that er consumption series. +So if you press the escape key we'll go back to the data processing environment, right. +What we're going to do is to log all our variables, right, so if you let L N T C equal open brackets T C close brackets, right, we going to define a new variable L N T C. +That's going to be the natural logarithm, right, of our original series T C textile consumption. +If you now plot L N T C right, if you plot L N T C you should have a very similar graph to the one that you had before. +Alright, logging the data doesn't change the nature of the data, what it does do is that it re-scales the data, okay so the only thing that's, that's, that's changed by logging, right, is the scale of the cr is the vertical scale on the graph, right, but essentially we are still trying to model the same series and N T C is essentially the same series as T C. +Okay, so if you press the escape key, once you've had a look at the data, er if you log all the other variables er if you let L N I equal log open brackets I close brackets let L N P equal log open brackets P close brackets, press the return key. +Okay has everyone created those three variables in logs? +Okay, right what we are going to er do now is create a constant, we'll need a constant for our regressions so if you type the letter Q to come out of the data processing environment right type the letter Q right and then go into the er constant creation menu, which is option one of the data processing menu right,you'll, you'll be asked for a name for if you like call it C or constant or Fred Bloggs, just supply a name to your constant term. +By the way has everybody changed erm the password or their password, have you changed it to your date of birth, have you all done that because if you haven't, you've only got six grace log-ins on erm where your password is your user name. +If you don't change +your password within six er times of logging in then you will be excluded from the network. +So you won't be able to log on to Microfit? +Right,okay, so has everybody created a constant right, what we are going to do now is to er estimate the first model right equation one on the sheets that you've been given, alright, you've created a constant, we've got our variables L N T C L N I L N P +right so if press the letter Q to quit from the data processing environment and press the return key, head towards the action menu, right, when you are in the action menu, go to option two, which is the estimate option, right, and you should then be given a dialog box. +If you then specify your equation, so it's L N T C your dependent variable space, whatever the name you called your constant then L N I space L N P. +Now just specify the variables that you want in this regression, right, your dependent variable first okay when you've specified the equation, sorry once you specify the equation press the end key which is between the alphabetic and the numeric key pads, that will then submit that request, right. +If you then er, it will then ask you over what period do you want to right so if you press the end key that will submit the job erm it asks for the sample period, we're going to use the whole of the sample, so if you just press the return key, that's the default for the whole of the sample, right, it then asks you what procedure you want to use to estimate the model, we're going to use O L S option one, just press the return key O L S then the computer has estimated the model, right. +Before we move on, let's just have a look at those numerical estimates, can we look at the coefficients on income, notice that in this model because we've logged both dependent and the independent variables, right, the coefficients that we estimate are elasticities, right, so we can read those coefficients off directly as elasticities and that's the case for any model in which all the variables are logged right, in er, if we didn't log the data, in order to calculate the elasticity we have to multiply a coefficient the computer gives us by a erm price quantity ratio, price less, less part of the income constant ratio to obtain the income elasticities. +Alright but in any double logged mode, right, the coefficients you estimate are elasticities, so we look at the incoming elasticity, we get a measure, or we get an estimate point six eight, right, that's a positive as we would expect suggesting that er erm textiles are a normal good, right. +Notice that an incoming elasticity is less than unity, and that's less than one, as a result textiles, textile industry in the Netherlands is going to be a declining sector in the economy, right, as incomes er per capita G D P rises, the textile sector will benefit, alright, because, because human demand for textiles either they're demanding proportionately less of any increases in incomes. +Right, then so as a result the textiles would be a and relative decline to the rest of the economy. +Is that a T ratio on that incoming elasticity? +Is that coefficient statistically significant, is it significantly different from zero? +Our estimate incoming elasticity, just the T ratio would you say. +T ratio of one point four nine. +Typically we use the rule of thumb to statistical significance so if we have a T ratio that's less than two +we can infer that that coefficient to which the T ratio is attached is not significantly zero. +In actual fact our incoming elasticity there with er nought point six is statistically significant zero, eighty five percent confidence level. +Confidence right the figure in the square brackets next to the T ratio gives you the significance level of the coefficient, right. +We normally use the five percent significance level or the ten percent significance level which corresponds er ninety five percent confidence or ninety percent confidence right. +So this T ratio on income elasticity is for the bit right and if we were using the five percent or ten percent as our sort of cut off point, we'd actually discard income from our consumption, from our demand function. +Now as economists we should have strong prides about income in this model, we would all, we would expect income to be very important in explaining textile consumption although the model is telling us at the moment, income doesn't seem to be significantly explained in textile consumption so that's something to worry about, we're getting some, er sort of peculiar results here. +We now look at the er price unity as a T ratio minus ten, right, so it's highly significant, right and the er figure in square brackets, the probability value next to the T ratio tells you that we get least ninety nine point nine percent confidence coefficiency price elasticity demand significantly different from zero right, now is everybody happy interpreting the coefficient right and the T ratio? +If not say now and we can go through it. +It is vitally important that you know +how to distinguish a statistically significant coefficient, right, rule of thumb is that the T ratio has to be greater than two with absolute value right and the figures in square brackets next to the T ratios tell us the exact level of significance, right, er of that coefficient, right, so the incoming elasticity of demand is statistically significant from zero only at the eighty five percent level, a correspondence of fifteen percent significance that incoming the price elasticity demand, highly significant, right, significance level as given by the probabil by the probability er unit in square brackets, the timing level therefore we could be very highly confident about that coefficient okay. +So we've got this model, right, we've estimated the model, let's now have a look at the plot of actual and predicted. +So if you press the return key right, we just get a whole list of diagnostic test statistics that we won't look at at the moment, press the return key again, come to the post regression menu, you go into option three which is a list plot option. +Now the plot actual and fitted, right, so we try to explain the actual block of textile consumption as the blue line and to do that we are using our model with those fixed estimates, the incoming elasticity and the price elasticity. +As you can see there, the model is breaking down during the latter period of our sample. +The notice that appears to track the data quite well up until about nineteen thirty, right and then after nineteen thirty it seems to get progressively worse. +Now we may suggest that that's the effect of the Second World War biasing alright biasing the estimates that we've just produced from the whole sample. +Now because I'll leave that for a moment right, so one way we may test the structural change, right, is to construct what's called a dummy variable and a dummy variables in a wide variety of applications they can be used to er get rid of er outlying observations, very very high or very very low observations. +They can also be used for tests for structural change, right, what we're going to do is to say during peacetime right, we'll estimate our model, we'll then estimate our model during wartime and we're going to assume that the coefficients or the income and price elasticity mark, don't change during between peace and wartime, all that happens is as they intercept this model shifts, right, now you may thinks that's not particularly er attractive, you might expect the price of income elasticities to change between two periods and we could actually use dummy variables to see whether that is the case, right, however, we'll get very similar results, right, if you just use a slope dummy so it'd intercept dummy, right, and all that's going to do is to say, well the model runs like this in peacetime, right, and then wartime it suddenly shifts up or down depending on the effect of er of the war on textile consumption. +Right, so what we're going to do is create a dummy variable to test that hypothesis, right, so if you press the escape key, right, and work your way back towards erm the data processing sort of environment, so go back to the post regression menu through the backtracking menu erm, when you're in the backtracking menu, go to option six, which is the process plot edit option right, now press the return key in the data processing menu, right, and that will get you to the data processing environment when we can start messing about with our variables. +Right, what we are going to do now is create a dummy variable, right, let's call it D one right so if you type D one equals zero and press the return key what you created there, right, is a new variable called D one and it assumes the value of zero, right, what I want you to do now is to edit this variable, so type edit space D one press the return key right, if you type on edit space D one you'll then get a sheet that has all the observations for our variable D one. +Using the cursor key move down to nineteen, the observation for nineteen forty right when you've done that type the letter one and then press the return key, right, and you'll see that the observation is changed, right, from zero to one. +Move the cursor to nineteen forty one, right, and then press one again, press return key. +Just go through the remainder of the, of the observations, so that you should have zeros up until nineteen forty and then at nineteen forty through to nineteen forty five, right, you have ones. +When you've finished doing that, press the end key. +Right the end key will save the edit that you've just made okay. +Right, what we're now going to do is incorporate that dummy variable as the regressor in our model as an explanatory variable, so what's going to happen is that that dummy variable is turned off, alright in the first part of the sample right up until the war that dummy variable's going to be off, right so it has a value of zero, right, then in nineteen forty through to nineteen forty five it's switched on and what it's going to do is to pick up any differential effects, right, in the intercept between wartime and peacetime right, we'll talk a little bit more, more about that in a second, we're going to add it in as a regressor, right, because it only comes on during the wartime it will pick up any shift in the intercept, right, that occurs due to the war if there is one, of course there may not be but it's quite likely that there, there may well be, so if you type Q to come out of the data processing environment, go back to the action menu and test estimate forecast okay at the dialog box just add D one to your list of explanatory variables, alright then press the end key, right, yeah we're gonna use the full sample right, we gonna use O L S, right you have now estimated the model with this dummy variable now just to see what's happened to those coefficients the er incoming elasticity was at nought point six is now doubled right to one point one four more importantly, right, its T ratio has jumped from one point eight five right to six point eight, as a result, we now say that the incoming elasticity, the income coefficients, right, the significant zero, it's important to explain the textiles as such the er, we are now getting a very different estimate for our +our estimate for price elasticity is four and one to nought point eight minus one is one point eight, notice though that its ratio has jumped considerably or has doubled and the dummy variable itself is very significant the T ratio ten the coefficient on that dummy variable tells us the effect of the war on textile consumption, right so on average textile consumption rose by point two er see what the units of measurement are we don't actually have units of er ah so we'll +elasticity whatever it's multiplied by +That's right if you er so this point two quantifies the effect of the war on our equation, and where is the so the intercept, well what you're saying is in peacetime the intercept is equation three point one seven, however, in war time the intercept shifts up and is now three point one seven plus point two, +You could draw it like that you could say that this is the the war which cuts in this time of year line shifts up, +Yes. +so if you wanted it back, you would actually get a new value for the intercept which increases by nought point two three point +Three point one okay so this is where the model, in effect what we've done which is a very crude way, right, of erm incorporating exogamous influences, right, we haven't said tha that the war is going to affect the income or price elasticity what we did do, right, all that we're doing is that we're allowing the intercept of our model to change, right, now as a result, we've got, we can prove the st the statistical significance of all the variables in our model, right, the co the actual coefficients that we've estimated have changed quite significant, particularly in the er the incoming elasticity, right, the incoming elasticity was less than one, right, and insignificance before was now greater than one and height of R squared has also increased dramatically our measure of explanatory power. +Now if you just press the return key a couple of times right, and have a lot of actual and fitted, if you go into option three in the data post depression menu you will notice that the fit of our model is very very different right, so we are now getting a very very good correspondence between actual and fitted, notice that in our original model the thing started to break down at about nineteen thirty, right, just by allowing the intercept to vary, right, over the wartime we've now got a much better fit throughout the whole period why is that the case? +Why are we now getting a much better fit throughout the entire period simply by incorporating the dummy variable to the war period? +Any suggestions? +Well what's happening is it the, during the war, right, we're constraining the computer to estimate, like a single coefficient that is applicable to both war and peacetime er isn't the case, right,th there is a structural change, right, so when th when we constrain the computer to estimate the coefficients throughout the whole period, right, the coefficients are biased but if they don't apply either to the post er pre war peacetime sample neither do they er fit very well to the data during the wartime, right, if we allow the intercept to change but we're getting much better estimates both wartime and peacetime er parameter's okay because we haven't got rid of, we've got rid of that bias, right, in constraining the parameters to fit both wartime and peacetime er time periods. +Okay, erm on this sheet, I don't think, well we won't go through it now because we've run out of time. +On this sheet, on page two, we've er, we've performed equation two, right, on the sheet and the second page and it says that there's, there are two alternative ways of testing for structural change using dummy variables. +One is to include corporate dummy variable of the intercept and see whether it's T ratio or significantly different, is, sorry it's greater than two right or we can use an F test, right, now that F test that's given me that formula in the middle of the page is a very important test which was developed by a chap called Chow and as a result it become known as the Chow test and it's a, it's a test for parameter constancy, er do we have constant parameters in our model now it tells you how to compute this Chow test, in this particular case we're only dummying the intercept, the Chow test gives exactly the same results of T tests, right, erm we won't bother going through it, if you want to go through this er sheet in your own time calculate that, that Chow test and essentially what it involves is splitting with the s the whole sample now into two sub-samples, right, the first sub-sample, right, is peacetime, the second sub-sample wartime, right, and you just compare the residual sum of the squares on the unaccounted for variation, right, between actual and fitted values, just compare the residual sum of squares between these two sub periods, right and if you use the formula that's given there that will come out with exactly the same result, well in actual fact you can square, if you square the F statistic you get calculating one formula you will get T value, got from er the computer right, the er, the sheet goes on to say how we can er use dummy variables in slightly more complicated ways, right, we could see actually see whether the income or price elasticities of demand changed. +Right, instead of letting the intercept change we could just let er our elasticities change. +Anyway that's preferable because that's actually what's, what's happening, right, the war is likely to affect the elasticities of demand rather than this er bizarre concept intercept erm and the, the sheet on page three tells you how, how to do that okay. +But essentially all these tests do the same thing because they're seeing whether the parameters that we estimate over the entire sample are robust over all sub-samples, right, we can't, we wouldn't bother testing over all sub-samples though we can do, it's just if we have good reason to believe that behaviour in one sub-sample different for behaviour in another E G use er Chow test or equivalently a dummy variable on the intercept to see whether there was any change. +Right, okay we'll leave it there, if you just press the escape key and then work your way out of Microfit towards the action menu, exit from Microfit and don't forget to log out of the network. +Okay, feel free to come down here at any time with this sheet and er going through the, the examples in greater detail Q M four FIT was the data file, you'll always be able to access, right when you've logged out of the network feel free to go and a merry Christmas, see you next year. + +It wouldn't be any bother to me, if you +Mm. +Wanted me to. +Well we'll do that, I see what see says any rate on Monday. +But I don't think we should give her too long, cos she's got herself into . +Mm . +Yes . +Yes . +Keep putting up, we've had her for about two years haven't we? +Yes, she did say last time one of her friends would like the job. +Oh god. +Oh no, no. +She's told them how easy it is. +She's told them what to do, birds of a feather. +Yeah,. +Rose would you consider a man, I've got an idea there might still be a possibility of Mr +Well I don't see why not, if he, if he did . +Some men are very good . +Mm. +Some men are very good, we've got a good one at the church hall +pub next door, I mean. +Mm. +Toilets and things there. +That's right. +Yes, I mean that would be very good . +I think . +I'll have words with Sharon on Monday and er, oh I can't, yes I can on Monday I'm having my hair cut later, but I can come up about nine o'clock and see if she's here. +I bet she won't be. +No, I bet. +She'll be in the penny farthing then. +Well, I will then have to ring her won't I? +Mm. +So will you all get round to your limerick's please ladies. +. +Thank you all very much. +Thank you. +Elsie, oh. + +All right sit please. +I've checked your books and I have to say that I'm very pleased. +Worked very well most of you erm Rachael you weren't here last week were you? +What five S, this is five S five you were over there. +Er +. +Oh well it doesn't matter. +We've got . +. +Yeah . +I'll explain later. +So this this is five S? +Yes. +Right. +Mrs . +Okay . +Right if I can give Ken those to give out. +Erm and while Ken's giving them out let's try and remind ourselves what we talked about last week. +The rule is I ask and you put your hand up. +What did we talk about last week? +Chris. +The universe. +The universe. +What is the universe? +Louise. +Er the universe is er planets. +Is it? +Is that all it is? +No hand up. +Jennifer. +The universe is everything. +Everything absolutely everything. +How big is the universe? +Phillip. +No one knows. +Nobody knows. +What's that word, who was that put that word up that was it you Phillip? +Er what was that word you you used last week? +Infinitive. +Infinitive. +The universe is infinite we don't know. +When we look out of the window at night what do we see? +Jody. +Stars. +Stars. +What are those stars? +Suns. +Suns. +Not all of them most of them are. +Some of them are? +Alan. +Planets. +Planets. +How many stars are there? +Come on everybody's hand should be up, how many stars are there? +It's that word again isn't it? +Infinitive. +We can't count them because if we could count all the ones that we could see there's still plenty beyond those. +What's the nearest star to us. +What's the nearest one? +Louise. +Is it the sun? +The sun. +The sun. +Our sun. +Well why can't we see stars during the day. +If we look out at the sky why can't we see stars during the day? +Steven. +It's too light. +It's too light and where's that light coming from? +The sun. +The sun. +Our star is too bright for us to see stars from further away. +Do you know why we can see them at night and not at day time. +Why is the sun bright during the day time? +Does it switch off at night? +That's what we've got to go on to. +I'm just wondering how much you know already. +Kieran. +The earth turn round . +The earth turns round so we're in a shadow. +Host stars will have what going round them? +The moon. +Not the moon no. +Phillip. +. +Try. +You're doing really well. +Planets. +Planets. +How many planets has our sun got that we know about because there might be some we don't know. +Lee. +Nine. +Nine. +Nine that we know about. +Which one are we? +What's the name of our planet? +Katrina. +Earth. +Earth. +How where do we come in the order of nine? +Are we furthest away, nearest, in the middle?. +Third. +Third. +And you wouldn't remember just how far away we are would you? +You, come on. +One hundred and fifty million kilometres. +A hundred and fifty million kilo kilometres. +I think you deserve a house point there. +What house are you in? +. +. +Oh go on then. +Hundred and fifty million kilometres from the sun. +And what does the sun do for us? +Er gives us energy. +Gives us energy. +What sort of energy? +Sun light and . +Light. +Katrina. +Warmth. +And warmth and without those we can't live. +Light and warmth. +Without the light plants couldn't live and without plants we couldn't live. +Do you think we could live on another of the planets then? +What's the one nearest the sun can anyone remember? +Stacey. +Mercury. +Mercury. +What would it mean being nearer the sun? +What would it mean about that planet compared with earth? +We wouldn't be able to live. +Why? +It would be too hot. +Oh lovely and warm a nice sun tan. +No? +. +Er it's, what are you saying? +I mean are we talking it's a lot hotter, too hot. +What would happen to us? +We could die. +We . +All right so we can't go that way it's too hot. +What's the next one to Mercury? +Venus. +Venus. +Venus. +That's about the same size as earth you know. +Mercury's very small but Venus is is roughly like us. +How about that one then. +Could we live on Venus? +Do you think? +No. +No, why not? +Because we're we're in the exact spot where we've got enough warmth and +Exactly. +That's a good point. +We're here because we're suited to being here. +If we sh wanted other conditions we'd live on a different planet or we would have developed on a different plant. +We have to be exactly where we are. +Earth's just the right place. +Let's just see how smart you really are then. +You've done Mercury which is nearest before. +You've done Venus, what comes next? +Er there are some hands that aren't up. +Come on what comes next, what's number three? +Number three in charts for the last million million years Michael. +Mars. +You've missed one out. +Oh sit down. +You're life doesn't depend on being asked to answer this question because you know the answer. +Oh I'm going to ask somebody who hasn't got their hand up. +Kendal. +Earth. +Earth exactly. +Right Mercury, what comes next I've forgotten? +Erm mars. +Steven. +Venus. +Venus. +This is? +Come on Jenny. +Earth. +Earth. +Now Michael. +Mars. +Mars and we don't know any moons do we? +Yes. +Er d'ya mind, I'm the teacher. +If I say you don't know you don't know. +You don't know, Lee. +You don't know what comes next, you don't. +What is it? +Jupiter. +Is it? +Yeah. +We wrote it down in our book last week. +All right. +Erm what comes after Jupiter then? +Look at them all looking through their books for goodness sake. +Lee. +Saturn. +Saturn. +What comes after Saturn. +Uranus. +Uranus. +Neptune. +Neptune. +Pluto. +Pluto . +That's fairly straight forward then. +Yes Mr . +Yes Mr . +Kieran says we're on earth we belong here this is the perfect place for us. +Jennifer how far are we from the sun? +One hundred and fifty million kimome +Kimometres. +Kimometres Kilometres. +Yes and I'm gonna give you this sheet which it's to save time for drawing it. +This is where you now need to concentrate. +What we've done so far is dead easy. +Because it's not as simple as it looks on this sheet. +What's at the centre of our universe? +Not our universe our solar system sorry. +Kieran. +The sun. +The sun. +Our sun our star. +Is there somebody sit there going ? +Think, does it? +No. +No it doesn't. +What does the sun do? +Gives us light and . +It does but that's because it's like a huge atom bomb flowing hydrogen all the time. +It moves around in space, it's moving all the time. +All those stars are moving. +Not quickly as far as we can see. +Don't get upset you're not going to disappear one night. +All right concentrate. +The sun is moving, it's also turning, spinning, like a ball spinning on your finger. +What are the planets doing? +Revolving . +They are spin not all of them. +Not all of them. +Now that's a little thing you might want to check if you've got an atlas at home. +Some of them don't revolve don't spin in their axis. +Earth does. +What else are they doing, apart from those that spin? +Yes. +Moving. +Moving. +And they're moving around the sun. +What do we call the path that they follow? +When something's going round something else, do you know the word? +Oh no. +Try it. +Solar. +No that's that's to do with the sun. +That's what we talked about last time yes. +But if you know it. +What about space craft? +Space craft goes up and when it gets to a certain height above the earth it just goes round and round and round. +What do we say it's doing, what what is it in? +Come on star trek, when he parks his star ship what does he say? +We're in? +Space. +Well yes you're in space. +Pardon? +Well hardly ever our watch. +Orbit. +Orbit. +They're in orbit. +Orbit means you go round and round and round and round and round. +Because you're held there by all these planets and stars pulling at you. +And that's what holds these planets. +The sun has its own gravity. +Do you remember me mentioning that? +And it's trying to pull the planets in, Lee, but other stars are pulling them and stopping them falling into the sun. +All different distances away from the sun and there's Jennifer's a hundred and fifty million millimetres. +All going round in, what's the word again? +Orbit. +Orbit. +In fact this a this isn't quite accurate. +Because the orbit isn't round isn't a circle, it's an ellipse, it's more like that. +All right? +And while you've got the planet orbiting the sun there are things that orbit the plant. +What d'ya call something that goes round and round a planet? +Think you've all seen them. +At least one regularly. +When you look at night you see? +Lee. +Stars. +But they're not ones that are orbiting the planet. +Katrina. +Moon. +Moon. +Moon orbit the planet. +Here it tells you how many moons each planet's got. +Earth has one you know that. +Jupiter which is a huge planet, if you look carefully here this is a this is to scale, this shows you the size of the planet. +So this size of Jupiter compared with earth. +You see, there's Venus which is about the same size, Mercury's a small one, Saturn is huge, Uranus, Neptune they're big ones and Pluto's another one about the same size as earth. +So that's not quite accurate either. +This is just to give you the order and the distance. +And Jupiter has twelve moons. +Some of the moons of Jupiter are enormous. +These are all orbiting Jupiter as Jupiter orbits the sun. +Right. +Would you give one of those out. +We we won't do anything with it yet. +We need now to open our books. +Rule off from where you were before I want you to get some information down about our solar system. +More or less what we've just talked about. +Because it's still only the second week with me I think get the information down and we'll do what we did last week. +Do you remember what we did last week? +We did it all together. +And by the way I'm very pleased to see that some of you actually wrote it completely in your own words didn't you. +Either that or I can't read your writing properly. +That's very good. +As you get the facts right. +We finished off with giving a list of the planets haven't we? +We've talked about the sun a little bit, we just have done. +We started to talk about the solar system. +How far have we got on the solar system Josephine? +Naming the planets? +Mm. +We need to do a bit about the sun spinning and moving through space don't we? +We've not got that down have we. +So put today's date. +What happened to the one that you had did you give it back in? +Have you got a ruler? +So can somebody give me a sentence that explains what we talked about the sun isn't staying still it's, all right Kieran. +The sun's in the middle of the galaxy that +Well it's you can't say in the middle of the galaxy, it's only in the middle of the galaxy as we look at it. +Er let's be absolutely scientific. +Erm all we need to say is the sun isn't still, what can we say. +Go on Louise. +Is it moving? +The sun moves through space yes. +And while it's moving through space what is it doing, what did we say. +Steven. +Is erm it spins. +Spins good. +What shall we say spins or rotates. +I think spins is best. +Quick the sun. +So what did we say. +Louise said you said that you said? +It's moving. +The sun moves through space and Steven we decided on spins. +Spins. +Just to make sure that erm just to make sure that we don't think it's just spinning wherever it feels like spinning, it's spinning on its axis isn't it. +D'ya know what the axis is? +Erm imaginary line that goes down through the middle of a ball, yes, through there Jupiter. +No apostrophe on its. +No this is an apostrophe free zone for now. +Next er thing we need to describe is that planets move round the sun don't we? +How can we say that? +Go on then. +The planets all nine planets all move round +Well let's not say all nine planets for all we know they'll discover a new one tomorrow. +Have to say the planets and don't forget we've got to think about other solar systems as well so we're not let's not limit us to to the number, the planets why not. +Yes. +Go on. +The planets orbit around the sun. +Everybody happy with the word orbit? +Do you understand that? +Kieran suggest we say, instead of saying the planets move round in orbit we should say the planets orbit the sun. +Yes? +Suits me. +Saves chore. +It's essential that we we understand this orbiting bit because that makes it makes the seasons which we're going to go on to do. +But I'm sure you know all about them anyway. +Right. +What else did we talk about and we need to know, we haven't got down yet. +We talked about the sun moving, we've got that, spins, planets orbit the sun. +What else might might there be out there in space? +Think about what you've seen. +Jupiter's got twelve sun moons. +Twelve moons. +The moons that's what we need. +Need something else first. +Said the sun spins, do all the planets spin? +Er no. +No. +Can we check that? +I'm thinking of one in particular that wants checking. +There's one that's very hot one side and extremely cold the other. +So some of the planets spin. +Is there anybody that can look into that for us for next week? +Oh Jamie's not here is he? +Then we've got Louise's point about moons. +The moons orbit what? +erm the planets. +The planet. +Do all the planets have moons? +No. +No. +So that's some planets haven't why not? +That's a surprise Jeremy. +Some planets have moons. +And that's on that sheet that you've got. +There are quite a lot of other bits and bobs floating about, asteroids, meteors, little bits of chunks flying all over the place. +Now can we think of a famous thing that sometimes appears in space? +Halley's comet. +Halley's comet which is er a big lump of rock that flies around in its own orbit. +It's not part of our solar system it just is it every sev how many years is it every seventy six or something? +It's not that long with Halley's comet because you don't see it very very well sometimes. +I think it's . +I can't remember that's something else you need to check. +Erm it's quite regular I know, but some years you just can't see it very well. +Erm and there are loads of other ones some only come every few hundred years. +And they just travel through the the galaxy on a huge orbit, yes? +Is the thing what happens in America where ? +Mud? +Like something to do with mud like comes from America. +What to do with space? +Yes. +You're not thinking of er like er a meteorite are you ? +Yeah. +A meteor yes, yes I know what he means now. +A meteor is is something rock floating through space. +When it comes into our atmosphere it's called a meteorite and most of them burn off as they come through the atmosphere. +Some of them and yet you get huge damage. +Like there's all +That's it everything knocked down and +And everyone there's like dead deep and deep +Cany er crater. +Crater. +Everyone drowns. +Yes all right, let's not worry about that. +Okay. +Let's go on to talk about I assume you know this. +I shall talk through it and if you can get something written I'll leave you to do a diagram and you may want to staple this into your book staple's easier than gluing this. +Glue your pages together then. +Erm if you wanted to get time to look at the chart to colour the planets the right colour that's up to you. +Day and night. +What do you mean by day and night? +Is it what happens? +It it usually does yes. +Can you explain what is happening? +How long is there of day and night? +Twenty four hours. +Yes it's actually a day, what we call a day. +Twenty four hours. +What happens in that twenty four hour period? +switches from day to night. +Why, why twenty four hours, what's happening in twenty four hours, Stacey . +Sit there looking puzzled. +Have to . +You either know this or you don't and when when you hear what the answer is you're think, oh yes. +There's the sun going down. +The sun doesn't go, er he, think about what you're saying, explain it exactly. +We turn round. +We do? +Yes so we orbit +You turn round every once every twenty four hour. +What do you mean by we? +Earth. +The planet turns round once every twenty four hours. +And when you talk about earth as a planet it has a what at the beginning of the name because it's a proper noun. +Always Now it doesn't mean to say every twenty four hours it has to quickly spin round. +It takes it twenty four hours to turn round. +Part of the time our side our half of the sphere is facing the sun. +And the rest of the time when we're facing away from Hello Mrs Lawrence. +Hello how are you? +Can I borrow some books? +Books? +And some . +Those blue ones that are down there on your . +Oh yes of course. +Of course yes feel free. +Thank you. +Oh thank you. +I knew they were there. +Yes of course you did. +When we are facing away from the sun what? +When we are facing away from the sun? +It becomes night. +Well, it's science, think what's it exactly what you're saying. +Once it becomes night what happens?what happens when it's night? +Go on. +The sun goes to the other side. +The sun doesn't move.. +Erm it doesn't erm +Come on Kieran it's got to be exact. +the moon. +No not necessarily. +Er Kieran I want some action please, please. +Can I borrow this? +Is it er when you don't +We've got more anyway. +when you don't the sun it's in like a +What's the word? +a black shadow. +Brilliant, that's fine. +When we're facing away from the sun you are in? +All together one two three +Shadow. +And Kieran we call that shadow? +Night. +Night. +Well try and explain it. +Who's nearly finished writing off? +Katrina and Kieran out here please. +Right, have you here Katrina. +Katrina is the sun right? +Stand forward a bit otherwise I'm in the way. +It's all gone dark, there's an enormous teacher in between and the sun. +Kieran is the earth. +Kieran is facing, sorry back now. +Kieran is facing the sun. +Kieran is in light right? +Now turn slowly, still day time for Kieran, still day time, still day time, now what's happened? +Afternoon. +What's happened? +Stand still now Kieran. +Steven? +It's going round so it's turning to night. +He's in night, this side of him is in day. +Keep turning. +Keep turning. +Long night. +. +Wakey wakey Kieran daytime. +All right don't don't build your parcel. +Now of course all the time +Ah +Ooh what you, you and me, one of these days, one of us is going to crack up. +It's not going to be is it Jennifer? +Of course all the time Katrina's spinning round as well. +But it doesn't matter as far as we're concerned because one side of Katrina is just as bright as the other side. +Yes? +All right. +At the same time Kieran is moving as he's spinning he's moving round. +Now if we had we could do this with all nine planets. +All right. +You've passed the audition. +We need to do a diagram for that. +Does everybody understand that? +Say so if you don't. +Because it starts to get a bit more complicated now. +Right thank you you two sit down. +And how might we draw that? +Right. +We need a planet first. +No they're third. +No that third actually. +Is that Jupiter? +Look at it. +I just drew those on purpose because you small children don't understand. +You always said, you always said Mark but you do don't you? +Because it's not scientific, you don't want that on there do you? +Well it looks like an arrow's gone through it so I don't think it would work. +All right let him do it. +All right all right I can take cri I can take criticism. +I won't get upset . +Doesn't matter. +All right don't don't criticize me for this not being an accurate map. +I haven't got time to draw the world out properly. +That for you information is sea. +Er shh, we'll do it with cos there's more sea over there and I'm going to have to draw some plans. +Now there's a bit of America, whoops. +This is a nasty earthquake on the west coast of America east coast of America. +Right, bit of land in the middle, doesn't really matter. +Could be any planet, right. +And the sun +Yes it's not scientific. +Shh. +It's not scientific but I felt like it. +That's the sun. +The sun rays are shooting off into space you know that light travels in straight lines, yes? +Take my words for it. +Here, I'll have to draw that line on again anyway, is daylight. +It's important to understand that the earth is actually tilted slightly. +Right? +That's all right with you ? +Oh fine. +Let's right? +That shh,waste of time. +The sun's shining Katrina it's shining. +The light is travelling at, it's hitting the earth. +is it in day or night? +Day. +Day. +Why day or night? +Night. +Just just just a minute this is a frightening new concept. +Is that part in sunlight or not? +Yes. +Z day or night? +Josephine. +Day. +Day. +A is it day or night? +Luke. +Night. +It's night because it's shaded. +It's on the shaded side. +Right. +Have you all finished that board? +Yes. +Now we said that the earth rotates once in how many hours? +Twenty four. +Twenty four. +So in twenty four hours it will be exactly as it is now having gone all the way round, yes? +Can anybody tell me how long it will be until A is on this side and is on that side? +No. +It will be exactly the same place, it will have gone all the way round, right? +Lewis. +It will be twelve hours. +Twelve hours good lad, house point. +Oh you're in Sherwood aren't you? +Yeah. +What a good idea. +Erm in twelve hours it will be half way round, so the position will be reversed. +I feel a diagram coming on. +Oh my class makes a groan when I say that. +Right. +diagram. +The tilt's still the same way. +If it's rotating round like you want me to draw. +It's like it's like one of those old films isn't it. +Twelve hours later. +Is that the north pole and the south pole sticking out of the earth? +You counting on surviving this lesson? +Kieran, a word of advice. +Just because I'm critic doesn't mean to say I'm . +. +Any more from you madam and you're out here drawing X Y Z. +Right concentrate now. +Shh. +Nearly had yellow sea then. +There's the water again. +There's a bit of land. +Right. +Now Where will A be? +Someone come and point to it. +On the other side of the magpie. +Direct me. +Straight line down. +Down. +This way. +Which way? +Towards you or me? +This way, up a bit, across a bit this way, down, that's it. +Here, A. +Good. +Shh. +X Y Z. +Stacey direct me. +Quietly. +Help me here, this way or that way, right or left? +Louise? +Left. +Right. +Down. +Down. +There. +X Y Z. +Right. +The sun's still over here. +Honestly think, it's rotated it's face is on the other side. +It looks like it +Shh. +Now is A in daylight or night, Phillip? +Day. +Day. +What about X Y and Z? +Night. +Night. +I want you to do a diagram like this. +Mm . +And then we've got twelve hours later, half a day, turned round half way. +Right can I ask you to pay attention to a couple of things when you do this diagram. +Firstly, I'm sure we've got the earth on a tilt. +Won't particularly matter with what we're doing now but it will do when we go on to seasons. +Very important that the pole is pointing top and bottom. +You don't have to do it perfectly round because the earth isn't perfectly round. +You don't have to draw the continent and oceans exactly as they are because it's a diagram. +What you do have to be is neat, your labelling is in pen, your drawing is in ? +Pencil. +Pencil. +You have about twenty minutes, listen, to do this in your own way. +I should get, how many of you are there today? +Twenty four? +Only Jenny away? +Laura. +Oh Laura's away and Paul yes. +I should get twenty two different diagrams. +When you've done that I want you to look at this. +If you want to colour the planets, don't all go and stand round that picture, go and have a look come back and colour them. +You need crayons, there are some crayons in there, cupboard. +If you were away last week can you please leave space to catch up with the writing which you will do in your own time. +All right. +Does anybody have a problem with what they've got to do before we start put your hand up if you don't know what to do. +Luke a problem? +I hope you're not talking to me like that. +Please may I borrow a rubber sir. +Already? +Why don't you ask for a rubber when you make a mistake. +You haven't made a mistake yet? +You'll be writing in pen though. +You haven't been told to start yet, see you in a minute all right? +Yes? +Everyone know what to do? +Yes sir. +I don't mind you talking to the person next to you but keep the noise down please. +I want this work this week to be as good if not better than the work you did for me last week. +Which I'm very pleased with, very impressed. +Yes James? +Yes they're erm don't forget your title, the title for your diagrams as well, day and night the same title will do, in pen underlined. +Come on then Luke. +You want a rubber don't you? +Can I just erm, carry on working but just look this way a minute please. +Have you seen have you seen this? +Beautiful work. +Well done. +I've not graded your work I will give you A Bs and Cs next time. +Yes keep working while I just explain that if you've not had it before. +Erm Luke put your hand up and wait to be asked to speak please. +Yes Luke? +Yes you have to to explain what's happening. +If you want to do some writing with it to explain earth rotates half way in twelve hours that's up to you. +Yes. +Yes we've just said. +When you draw can you put that up? +Of course you can. +Yes. +There's a tin full of counters you can use. + +Well good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen. +Before we start the presentation I'd mention there will be hard copies of the slides available, the video is for internal use only and there should be plenty of time for questions at the end. +Six months ago we reported interim results,fifty eight percent down on the previous year but held out hope for a stronger performance in the second half, in the event our os optimism was justified. +And in the second half when we always make the bulk of our profits, we fought back and our second pre-tax er, er performance, exceeded by some five million er, that of nineteen ninety. +This wasn't sufficient to make up the ground lost in the first half and the outcome for the year as a whole, you now see. +I'd like to draw your attention to a couple of points on this slide. +First, the high earnings per share after extraordinary items, which is increasingly relevant to the proposed new accounting standards and secondly,that we're recommending a maintained dividend which we can prudently do, bearing in mind our reasonable dividend cover and low net debt. +We now come to the breakdown of trading profit by sector. +Profits er, from oil services were well and educational publishing in the U S er, put in a very strong performance. +Frank will be going into more detail on these and our other businesses, which are all facing an uphill struggle, particularly in the U K and North America, both in deep recession and which you can see continue to make up the bulk of our markets. +I'd add that at the moment we do not see any upturn in any of our major markets. +Before handing over to Frank, I'd like to emphasise some of the key points of nineteen ninety one. +Yes, we did have a strong profits recovery in the second half, greatly helped by oil services and U S educational publishing. +We had a strong improvement in operating cash generation and that and the sale of brought net debt down to a low level. +B Sky B is now profitable of trading level, we increased our stake in it during the year from eleven percent to sixteen percent. +Frank became the new chairman and we believe that in due course, it's gonna generate substantial profits. +Finally, I'd like to mention that we shall be recommending for shareholders a one for one scrip issue. +This isn't intended as any particular message, but we are now one of the weightiest shares in the F T S E index and be we believe that it should improve the market liquidity of the shares. +Now, Frank. +Good morning everyone. +I think when we talked to you er, when we presented the interims er, we talked about the action we would be taking given the difficult circumstances and er, if I could just remind you. +We said we'd be going for cost space reductions. +Well, we've done that, as we said we would and of course, in a business such as Pearson, which is a people business er, although we regularly monitor employment statistics, such as total employ total number of employees er, revenue per employee, cost per employee, profit per employee, there are times when we have to take er, difficult decisions and er, so we've gone in for a lot of redundancy, which we'll see in, in er during the next slide or two. +But not just redundancy, we've taken initiatives in lots of other areas, we'll show you those as well. +On capital spending we tended to concentrate on that spending which would show a return on the investment and if we could we've postponed er, maintenance spending erm, renewal of cars and that kind of thing. +All of our Chief Executives accept er, cash generation targets erm, either cash generation or ratio of working capital to er, to sales and that kind of thing and erm, as well as er, profit to turn over issues and that's er, stood us in good stead this year. +And we've been saying to Chief Executives, if you can't get the profit or you can't get the sales, well at least concentrate on trying to, trying to get the cash, get the debtors in, that kind of thing. +And we think that's er, er, gone well too. +And of course, we've tried to reinforce our market positions and I think we've succeeded in er, in virtually all of our businesses. +Er, now if we look at the er, staff reduction by sector. +Again, when I spoke to you during the interims, I was expecting redundancies during the year of, of er, about a thousand. +In the event we've achieved fourteen hundred, nearly fourteen hundred, and that follows on the six hundred redundancies we had last year. +Er, and as well as the erm, staff reduction initiatives er, staff reduction initiatives that this showed you the savings er, in the year. +Most of the savings of course coming next year, a small saving this year. +As well as that, we managed to restrict the pay round for the whole of Pearson in the U K to four percent. +Going to other cost saving initiatives erm, in the newspapers we've, we made lots of savings in newsprint. +This was usually negotiating better discounts, in some of our production centres reducing the web width, which of course saves newsprint and in many areas er, in the regional newspapers reducing the distribution of our freeze in areas where we thought it er, it wouldn't affect, it wouldn't have affected the performance of the title. +Er, on the book side we've managed er, considerable reductions in freight costs, warehousing and printing. +In entertainment I'd think the reduc cost reductions there were pretty well, er restricted to good housekeeping, but from fine china er, we managed to transfer the, the er, work in the Minton factory to the Knowle Street factory and that allowed us to close the Minton factory and quite apart from the redundancies that entailed, we saved something like two hundred and fifty thousand er, non staff related overhead. +Er, group wide, in the U S A, the er, New York headquarters staff under David 's direction achieved a very worthwhile er, reduction in telecoms, two million a year and this was by er, aggregating our telecoms erm, business and negotiating an er, one contract. +And they've just about completed a second one on freight which will save two million dollars a year. +And we're looking to, to do similar transactions in the U K, but of course with the lack of, or the reduced competition in the U K we, we may not do quite as well. +Er, on capital ex expenditure er, most of the capital you see there was erm, investment which will show a return er, on investment. +Er, the big items were Brighton where we're spending ten, eleven millions er, with the new press and the new building, which is pretty well completed er, it very shortly will be on-stream. +Erm, the oil company continue to invest in capital expenditure, as it should do and er, most of that is spent between services, drilling and, and radar and at, Tussauds we continue to invest er, Alton Towers has got er, the Ghost House opening today and the Runaway Train and we were finishing off the Marylebone Road project, which is a very big, big project involving er,re the complete refurbishment er, new shops and a view right there in the basement. +And so the er, the reward for our firm grip on costs and the concentration on cash is a favourable swing of, of forty seven er, million pounds in the full year and there should be more to come because now we're at the end of our er, capital spend on newspapers er, the newspapers will of course, become very substantial cash generators. +We look at the er, profit of the newspapers individually. +Of course it was a very, very difficult year for the Financial Times. +Ad sales were down fourteen percent er, but we er, we increased our market share and in fact our market share was the best since nineteen eighty six er, when the F T was the market leader. +Circulation was down four percent, but overseas we increased our circulation by five percent and again in the U K in, in newspaper sales we held our market share. +Er, Profile did very well, increasing sales by twelve percent last year and following the deal with Texline er, sales moving well ahead again this year. +Er, Les Echo had problems on the medical side, partly government regulation, partly the market and we've reorganized er, two medical divisions into one and that should give us er, give us some cost saving there. +The newspaper circulation was up three percent to a new record at one hundred and twelve thousand, seven hundred and that was a very good performance. +Ad volume was down erm, but not as much as in the U K. +The economists had a tremendous year erm, really bucking the trend and contributing about five million pounds to er, F T's er, associates profits. +The circulation was a new record and four hundred and eighty five thousand, nine hundred by year end and it just seems to go from strength to strength. +Er, we swopped our sharing expense on the er,Sp Spanish financial daily er, with cash for a twenty five percent stake in the Group and er, one of the things this er, does is to give us a stake in, in Marca, which is the second biggest newspaper in Spain and incidentally has the same social and economic profile as El , The Times of Spain er, and it's a sport paper which sells seven days a week, two hundred and thirty four thousand circulation and its nearer, nearest competitor sells one fifty thousand. +It's a very big cash generator for the very high cover price and that should benefit from this year's Olympics. +Expansion itself went up erm, circulation by twenty three er, percent last year and ad sales were up fourteen percent. +Westminster Press had a very difficult year. +Ad volume was down er, three point four percent overall. +Nearly all of that was in classifieds where erm, the volume was down about er, eleven point eight, nearly twelve percent and er, revenue down by eight point three percent. +Situations vacant in particular showed a very, a very big drop and erm, and in fact we, the yield was lower than the year before, but we've er, continued with our pac press rationalization programme and er, I think as I mentioned at the interims, the Basildon Evening Echo is now printed on the F T's presses, which incidentally has got the contract to and is printing er,. +Erm, but W P continued to er, hang on to its market leadership in virtually every centre and erm, despite the difficult year managed to launch er, several new titles. +Er, if we turn to the revenue split I think this underscores the recession er, and you'll notice that there's a much lesher lesser proportion of revenue coming from advertising. +Er, they're overall figures, but for instance the F T, which er, the year before seventy five percent of its revenue came from advertising and er in, in ninety one it was down to seventy percent. +If we go on to books erm, I think that Longman performance is exceptionally good erm, of course for book business it's very much first half, second half, most of the profit coming in second half, but er, erm, Longman only dropping seven percent on the year before seems to me a particularly good performance given the environment and in fact it generated more operating cash flow than the year before. +It did very well with English Language Teaching sales er, in Europe and Asia as planned and its medical and professional sponsored adver erm, business in, in Japan grew much quicker than we expected. +But education in the U K and Canada was very, very tough indeed. +Pitman, which is the U K leading er, business book publisher increased sales by sixteen percent and Alhambra after the er, reorganization is doing rather well and the first book we've published on the new Spanish educational curriculum is forty percent ahead of er, budget. +Ali Addison Wesley was er, one of our stars this year. +Er, a fourth year of record profits, record er, sales, record margin, with the schools business thirty seven percent ahead of the previous year with our successful maths programme, aided and abetted by er, the business that produces the manipulatives to go with the maths programme. +The college market in the U S A was the weakest for decades, but our college sales were up ten percent. +Internationally we're up thirteen percent and in the Europe and, Europe and Pacific twenty percent. +And on the er, general book front, the erm, Iron John was on the New York Times best sellers list for fifty one weeks and twelve of those at number one. +I'll deal with Penguin separately. +Federal and Capital we er, is, is a small business er, but highly profitable and er, it's a subscription business so that the cash comes in advance and er, the er, the only criticism I have of Federal and Capital is that it's, it, it, it, it would be nice if it was five times bigger than it is. +But we're working on that. +Looking at Penguin er, it was a very difficult year but the profit you see was erm, is after providing for the losses up to the date we disposed of Smith Mark and also making further provision on, on er, leases when we moved out of the other buildings, centralized the editorial and er, administrative functions into one office and, and but for that you would see that the er, the Penguin profit would have moved ahead from the year before. +Erm, some of you are very critical of, of, of the Penguin operation when you were in the U S A but I have to tell you, they did achieve record sales there last year and increased market share and in fact the children's er, book publishing was twenty percent ahead of the year before. +In the U K the improvement plans we've been working on for the last two years have been very successfully implemented but they've been overtaken by the U K recession. +In the U S A we've appointed John President and so we've got the structure that we wanted, with Peter as, as Chairman at the top and concentrating on er, on publishing as he ought to, one of the great publishers of the world, dealing with the authors, dealing with the agents and dealing with the editorial staff. +With a Managing Director in U K, Trevor and a Managing Director, President in the U S A, John and er, John had a very good start and we're sure this will be an improved er, stretcher from our business. +Turning to, turning to entertainment and media investments er, it was a very tough year for the Tussaud group and starting with the er, Gulf War er, and erm, the only Tussaud business that, that does a lot of business in the first quarter is erm, Marylebone Road and you may remember that the Gulf War caused foreign tourists to stop coming to London and er, also erm, British tourists stopped coming to London and during that time attendances were actually twenty five percent down, so the recovery from there is, has been very good. +Our highlight was the opening of Scenerama, our Dutch exhibition which opened in mid year and that's well ahead of budget and by year end we'd had six hundred thousand admissions through the turnstiles. +Alton er, did well er, to restrict attendances to a five percent drop. +I should remind you, of course, that we have the usual three million black hole Alton this year, the first quarter. +At Chessington attendances pretty well stood still, again a very good performance in my view and er, justification for the capital spending that's gone on in recent years to bring that er, to bring Chessington to where we want it to be. +Warwick too had a very good performance and er, and maintained its er, attendances. +Er, turning to the media investments, well we all tend to think that the er, the bids tended to be on the high side but er, at least Yorkshire got the licence for the next ten years and they have the option in ninety eight to go for a further ten years and I can tell you er, because I've had er, lots of conversations with Clive that they're really working on, on making the best improving their returns from that franchise and I'm quite sure they'll succeed. +Pickwick as you know we sold er, during the year, or sorry when the year ended, this year. +Turning to er, Camco, our old services campaign, again that er, I think that was a very, very good performance er, sales were ahead of last year, trading profit ahead of last year and they even proved, improved the margin very, very slightly and that's our second star of the year. +Erm, Products and Services did very well internationally, in fact the entire business did well internationally, generally, particularly in Venezuela, Nigeria and by year end the er, joint venture in Russia was er, was complete and ready to start. +We also did a very important er, technology transfer to Czechoslovakia, which er, unsubmersible pump neck technology and that's tended to, to erm, hide a slight delcl er decline in the last quarter of the year, normally in oil most of the profit or more of the profit comes in the second half than the first, but with the Gulf War last year oil prices were pretty firm and er, so we've made er, quite reasonable profits in the, in the er, first half and so too in the second half, but in the last quarter they've been showed up by that technology er, transfer and the er, U S oil price is er, is, is er stag the U K's is stagnant, the U S is stagnant in oil and the gas prices are very, very far down, they're well down. +Turning to investment banking and I should just remind you that er, we take fifty percent of Brothers' profits and ten percent of New York and Paris and given the conditions, given the environment last year, I don't think need be ashamed of the performance er, although in London the only business to really come in, come in with impressive returns was er, asset trading money, broking and banking. +There was erm, a great reduction in corporate activity but corporate finance kept very busy er, with their value services and money raising and er, we were responsible for the National Power flotation and the disposal of Gratton. +In Paris er,were top of the M & A league but the volume was well down on the record nineteen ninety. +New York too did well, advising on thirty seven acquisitions er, thirty seven transactions, including acquisition of Tonka and acquisition of the Max Factor division of Revlon. +On fine china erm, although profits were down, Royal Doulton did manage a margin of eight point five percent and here again improved the cash flow on nineteen ninety. +And they continued to develop their distribution and retail network and now over half of our sales are overseas and er, we developed our direct mail and our chain store business er, even though demand was down. +In fact we made most of our profits or a lot of our profits last year by erm, sheer volume and, and, and a decline in yield. +Erm, a bigger sale of the smaller price it of the lesser priced items. +I mentioned earlier that we closed the erm, Royal Minton factory and four other factories are on short time, but we continued to invest in operation efficiency to improve our competitive position and er, now over to er, to James . +James. +Good morning everyone. +Well as you can see from what Frank said, the six main sectors overall didn't fare too badly, sixteen percent drop in aggregate at the trading level and in fact er, our other interest less expenses were actually ended on eleven percent because we had a million pounds more profit from Lakeside when we sold the Tesco's site. +However, the damage was done at the discontinued line which simply reflects the fact that we had er, Elserver in for two and a half months in nineteen ninety one, as opposed to twelve months the year before. +So trading profits down twenty four percent and although the interest charge was down er, quite sharply, largely, of course, as a reduction in net depth through the Elserver sale, profits before tax ended up as you heard before, twenty three percent lower. +If we go from that to the earnings, there's another erm, er, slide to take us through that. +I think the most interesting point here is the tax charge which is two percentage points down on the year before and that really is prior year adjustments, there are other pluses and minuses but that's a significant reason. +Extraordinary profits, you may be surprised to see are only twelve point nine million after the Elserver sale but that is a function of the write back of good will on the disposal of Elserver which you will see explained in the preliminary statement, thus reducing the er, profit from two hundred and twenty nine million, which was the estimate at the interim, to thirty five million for the year as a whole. +We did that in the with the erm, urgent issues task force new standard on good will. +We had to do it cos I'm a member of the task force. +I mean I'd be sacked otherwise. +So, earnings after extraordinaries up fifty four percent er, even so. +Now, the profits, the profits you've seen where the profits came down, let's look at it another way and that is really to see er, the impact per the year before. +Fifty three million down in profits overall. +Foreign exchange worked to our advantage this year, the dollar was at one seventy two on average. +Er, we had, obviously, no help from acquisitions because of the Elserver effect less interest. +Our exceptional items were rather heavier in nineteen ninety one, you won't be surprised after what you heard from Frank about the er, number reductions. +We had redundancy cost, we had lease provision and one or two other items. +So, the underlying performance, in fact, accounted for only forty million out of the fifty three million reduction in profits. +Now, again, we need to distribute the underlying performance because it wasn't equally distributed between the various sectors. +Now, clearly the two major er, baddies there were the newspapers and investment banking and that reflects their operational gearing and the sharp decline in revenue you are well aware of. +The two pluses are books, thanks largely to Addison Wesley, thankfully decisively so and the oil services business and the only other item worth reflecting, I think worth er, remarking on, is in fact that if you take out the black hole effect er, the entertainment fall was only two million and I think that is a creditable performance. +So, if we now leave profits and go to cash. +Er, the cash flow is slightly crowded and to we've split it into two slides. +You can see er, at the top, of course the profits were down but nonetheless er, I think quite encouragingly, we have higher operational cash flow and I'll go into a little detail of that later. +Er, a sharp fall in the interest, tax and dividends line led to the forty five million turnround at what we regard the crucial measure, net funds from operation. +This tells you whether you're generating money for shareholders or where they consume you. +If we look at the next slide, you'll then see er, the change from net funds from operations, plus eighteen million, down to the various large reduction in borrowings, you're already aware of and, of course, the erm, disposals less acquisitions as it should read for ninety one er, stands out there. +We spent only really modest amounts, apart from there was a small further investment in B Sky B, nothing else worth recording. +So, turnround in a net debt of three hundred and twenty million and I think we will look again now at the net funds from operation and look at the analysis a little further. +Trading profit less potential was only down twenty five million because, of course, a good slice of the reduction in trading profits came from er, associates, mainly Elserver which is rather niggly in distributions. +The working capital outflow was controlled and was only er, sixteen million more working capital, which is considerably better than the year before and then finally you had the er, improvement in the capital expenditure. +Capital expenditure less depreciation is eighteen million better, that's of course a function of two er, elements. +The reduction in the and the persistent rise the depreciation charge, which is going over the last four years as we maintain a high level of capital spending. +Improvement in operating cash flow was then compounded by er, the financing line and that really is overwhelmingly er, a reduction in tax paid, function of the lower profits than previous years and of course, the impact of consortium relief in B Sky B. +Net change, forty five million pounds and that we regard as one of the most satisfying outcomes for the year. +Now Elserver also impacted, of course, materially on the balance sheet as the next slide will show us. +Curiously, net trading assets are virtually unchanged between the two years. +This is obviously a coincidence, since it's a function of so many different things including exchange effects. +However, the balance between debt and equity is remarkably changed. +You'll have the sharp improvement in shareholders' funds resulting from the write back of good will on the Elserver disposal and the consequent reduction in net borrowings, from four hundred and five to a hundred and eighteen million. +Now, net debt of the hundred and eighteen million is of course, er, a balance of two items. +We have our debt itself, the gross debt, which came down about a hundred and twenty million and that is all set by a substantially increased cash balance. +The cash is overwhelmingly held in sterling. +We need a hundred million of it to er, pay back Coupon Bond that matures in May and by the same reason, the final column shows that the balance of our debt between fixed and floating er, will change, other things being equal on the pro-forma basis. +At the moment or at the year end of our variable debt, commercial paper in the United States, a very cheap form of debt, formed the overwhelming proportion. +Our fixed debt is accounted for by our quoted sterling bonds and er, the balance of a medium tone note programme which we have outstanding in the United States. +On the pro-forma basis, our hopes, which of course not yet been born out, that interest rates will be declining er, will give us some advantage by the year end, as a number of caps and swabs which we put in place during nineteen ninety one, unwind. +Now, balance sheet with the lower debt and promising cash flow, of course, impacts on financial ratios and I think that this is the best measure of how we come through nineteen ninety one rather than the profits. +The dividend cover is not wonderful but it's perfectly adequaly adequate as Michael said at the beginning. +Interest cover was already strong and is now at nearly ten times patently er, a very healthy level and whether or not you add back the good will on other er, acquisitions, I dare say the ratio is at a very low level indeed. +Clearly, we have plenty of powder and it's dry. +Thank you. +Er, we are going to be joined er, for questions by David , who is er, the Chairman of Camco and the u the Pearson Executive Director, resident in the U S. +Michael , who is er, C E O group and Hugh who is C E O of Westminster press er, financial newspapers. +When you er, ask a question first time could you, could you say your name and the organization that you represent. +Could I have the first question please? +It's Mark from the Daily Telegraph. +Can I just ask you if your position on the Daily Mirror is still that you're not at all interested in it, or is there a prospect that you may change your mind when you've seen the figures from the Mirror? +Er, we had a good look at, at the figures, although they weren't totally finalized we had a pretty good understanding of the situation and I think it is highly unlikely that we would er, seek to re-open any negotiations. +Er, Jason from the Independent. +Just a supplementary on that. +This er, your comment that you had a good look at the figures, severely confused the merchant bankers who are advising the Mirror group as they, they didn't feel that they'd finalized the figures themselves. +So, did you have a, a mole inside the Mirror Group? +Er, James would you like to answer that question? +Well, I'm not a mole. +No, I think that we had a fairly clear idea, certainly on the pension fund, we've not obviously got accurate numbers, a clear idea of the broad er, shape of, of the problems and erm, that allowed us, without having to wait for very accurate figures, to draw the conclusions about the scale of the problem, the amount of investment we'd like to, we need to make and thus erm, whether or not it was of interest to pursue. +You didn't need to have a, a long form report in front of you I think, to draw the conclusion. +Er, Richard from the Scotsman. +Can I just ask you to be slightly more specific on your first answer. +Does that mean you're not actually interested in any parts of the Mirror Group? +I refer particularly also to the, the Daily Record and the Sunday Mail in Scotland. +Er, I'll be more, I'll be clearer. +Er, we are not interested in any parts of the Mirror Group. +Er, Raymond , Financial Times. +Companies with as strong a balance sheet as yours have been known to seek acquisitions er, in the midst of a very deep recession. +Why have you not done so? +Er, there are a couple of factors there. +One is that we do make acquisitions, we on, on the whole er, prefer er, organic growth because it is normally more profitable and the prices you have to pay for acquisitions er, tend to put significant premiums on the companies you buy which you may er, in the longer run eventually erm, er, turn into shareholder value. +But er, any acquisition has to fit extremely well strategically and it has to be at a price that we consider to be a, a, a good price. +Now, so far er, the acquisitions that have come onto the market haven't really reflected er, the trading conditions in which all companies in this country have been operating for the last eighteen months. +In oth other words, there haven't been particularly good value acquisitions that are strategically suitable for us. +It doesn't mean to say that we are not on the, alert and on the look out and er, I think those opportunities erm, er, will still occur and that er, we will be involved. +Now, there's one other element that's worth mentioning. +Erm, it is perhaps only in the last er, six months or so that the erm, turnaround in the fortunes of erm, er, B Sky B have been acknowledged and er, I think there has been an element in our thinking that we wanted to keep our dry er, until such time as er, B Sky B which we have great belief and faith in and our, as you know we increased our investment during the year erm, sees its way through to profitability and I'm happy to say that that's happening now at a reab reasonable rate and that that means that it is highly unlikely that the hundred and thirty million of guarantees that we still have outstanding to B Sky B are likely to be called. +So, we're in a pretty strong position to make acquisitions if they appear at the right price and they fit our strategic framework. +Sorry, that was rather a long answer. +Yes Sir? +William , Daily Mail. +Erm, you, a lot of people now talk as though it's erm, plain sailing or flying for B Sky B and it's gonna be er, hunky-dory, whereas Anglia Television have just written their stake down to a prenominal amount because they don't think it's gonna make, stand a chance of making a profit before the turn of the millennium. +Do you think they're being too gloomy and do you think certain other people are being too euphoric? +I think that the reasons people have written down their erm, er, holdings in B, B Sky B have varied. +Er, sometimes it's for tax reasons, sometimes it's for er, for, for, for erm, er, reasons such as last year when er, we wrote down our, our stake by some seventy one million erm, it was because at that point the financing for B Sky B was not yet er, at all clear because the shareholders had been unable to agree at that point erm, that they would guarantee the two hundred or so million that er, needed to go in before the er, project became successful and so there was a genuine doubt on the financing. +Er, I don't know if James again, you might like to comment. +We'll keep Frank in reserve, he's a Chairman at B Sky B. +Er, I think er, Frank will correct me if we're closer to the, to the sharp edge than Anglia, who have got a very small stake and only in the equity of B S B H, are coming very low in the pecking order to get their money, whereas er, where there is a whole complex er, schedule of who will participate in the er, substantial cash flow that we expect to emanate from B Sky B in due course, but I think that's the main reason why Anglia, I haven't talked to David . +Frank, do you talk? +Well, I mean it's, it's definitely tax driven. +I mean erm, Anglia talked er, talked to me anyway as Chairman of B Sky B erm, before they, before they did the write off and it's, it's just tax driven. +So you're right at the head of the pecking order? +Pardon? +You're right at the head of the pecking order, when the cash generation starts you'll be first in line? +Er, we will, but the pecking order er, the pecking order is the subject of agreement and it's public. +Er, but I mean clearly the, the debt and the guarantees are paid down first and so for the reason we are high up in the pecking order, because we provided the er, the loans and the guarantees. +Yes? +Following that up when, when can your long suffering shareholders er, expect to see any return on the B Sky B stake and a follow up on that? +Now, you've got sixteen percent and you're the Chairman when shouldn't you equity account it? +Well, I'm not certain our shareholders are long suffering. +Erm, in fact I think the turnaround has er, has been remarkably quick and remember, we saved our shareholders from having to write the lot off. +So I wouldn't accept your description justified. +Mick. +Mm. +Take issue beyond that. +Sorry, what was the second part of the question? +Well, the first part of the question was when, when will they start seeing a return back on that money and secondly, when shouldn't you equity account it? +Well, er, equity accounting, James is better placed to answer that question than me. +Erm, I'd be very surprised if, if cash, if, if B Sky B doesn't start to trade at a profit overall in erm, in the second half of ninety three. +And, and thereafter cash can flow out because the first thing that flows out are loans and guarantees. +So we're, we're quite close to getting cash back from B Sky B. +Sorry, can I get it absolutely clear. +I didn't fully understand that. +Are you actually saying er, money will actually be raised in addition to the financing charges in the second half of ninety three? +No, no, I'm talking about profit from the, from the business. +Money from the business. +Just to clear another point up. +Last autumn it was stated in a document that there would have to be further subscriptions of finance before er, the project became profitable. +Are you now saying that's no longer necessary? +That is the two hundred million that I was referring to er, earlier, wasn't in place at the time that we made our write there. +So, that was all the remark applied to? +Well yes, but that, remember we provided for up to two hundred million which we thought would see us through to the end of ninety two. +Now it looks as if not all of that will be called, but we can't be sure at this stage. +But it looks as if it may not all be called. +Should I just comment on the assessing the equity accounting point. +Er, the present situation is that there's complex erm, arrangements for the exercise of votes, basically unanimity is required and in those circumstances we as a shareholder cannot exercise material influence which is a necessary pre-condition for equity accounting. +Ourselves. +Roger from the Guardian. +Erm, can we, er, two separate questions. +One is going back to the issue of acquisitions erm, where are you most interested, both geographically and er, as far as your operation is concerned, where are you most interested in making acquisitions? +Er, and a completely separate question now, entertainment er, could you just tell us a bit more about what's happening at Alton Towers and also how you think it's gonna be affected by EuroDisney? +Yes er, well I think we might, I'll answer the second question but we'll, we'll, we'll answer the first question but we'll ask Michael, who's right here to, to comment on entertainment. +In fact today, this afternoon we're launching a whole new area at Alton Towers which is additional to anything before erm, Frank referred to it briefly, there's a Runaway, so called Runaway Train ride, there's a Ghost House and that's all part of a new complex, which we've got longer term plans to expand further. +Er, that's costing something up to ten million pounds approximately. +So, we have erm, underlying confidence in the long term future of Alton Towers, I think that's very important to state. +As far as EuroDisney is concerned, I personally welcome its establishment in France. +I think that it is going to have a good effect on improving trading for the better parks and attractions in this country and as you know I think, Alton Towers is the leading er, park of its kind in this country, Chessington which we also own is the second er, leading park, one and a half million visitors a year, Alton Towers approximately two million visitors a year in this country. +Both offering excellent value for money. +The point I think that has to be understood about EuroDisney, which perhaps hasn't been properly perceived yet by the public is that it is very much a destination for the British public. +It is not a place you can just go to for the day and therefore you need to spend at least a couple of days getting there overnight, coming back again and er, for a family of four I calculate that even taking one's own car across the Channel, the average cost for a family of four, is of the order of five or six hundred pounds. +I don't see how you can do it cheaper for that. +Don't forget to get into Disney is twenty five pounds, which is more than double what we're charging at Alton Towers for example. +Er, the comparable cost for a family of four in this country to go to somewhere like Alton Towers or to Chessington in your own car including the cost of petrol of getting there is of the order of fifty or sixty pounds at the outside. +In other words, only ten percent of the total costs of going to Disney. +Therefore, the one is a destination which you'll probably find you'd prefer to go to for a long weekend or perhaps a, part of your annual holiday etcetera, our parks are places you go to for a day out and I think therefore there is a very er, strong difference between the sort of visit and because I feel that EuroDisney which will undoubtedly will be good, it's a proven formula er, it's run well er, it appeals to a lot of people and therefore it will be I think er, successful, exactly how successful I obviously can't say, but it will be successful, it will certainly attract British visitors, but they'll come back, looking er, with certain higher expectation, a value for money, quality etcetera, etcetera. +And we believe we already offer that, I think the figures indicate that and therefore in the medium and the longer term I believe that our attractions will undoubtedly benefit and I would finally say that if you er, go back and look at the history of Disney in America, after the establishment of Disney Parks in America there was a big improvement in extension of the amusement parks in the rest of America which er, the traditional theme parks, so called, in America grew in the period after the establishment of Disney Land in California and I think a similar sort of thing is going to happen, not perhaps just in this country er, but also in Europe generally. +In certain locations there are clearly planning problems, environmental problems that sort of thing, in establishing parks but I believe er, and I know a lot other people in the leisure business believe that there will be a growth. +But the ones that'll gain will be the quality ones offering the best value for money and as you know, Pearson believes in quality and certainly value for money and therefore I believe we will benefit from that. +Thank you Michael. +On, on acquisitions, well running through the group, the best of banking er, er strategies to remain non capital intensive and strongly cash generative er, know, you know we've had a twenty million investment erm, A & A er, a Swiss er, house, we're extending our networks. +We're not, er we're not the best thing about money and I wouldn't see that happening in the future. +On fine china, we're already the largest fine china, fine bone china manufacturer in the world. +We might make the odd selective acquisition but not vast amounts of money going on acquisitions there either. +In oil services, in the future there could be further major acquisitions but er, over the past three years we've er, undertaken a whole series of acquisitions and er, and for the moment I wouldn't see anything er, in the, in the major line there, although you never know if some, even sometimes opportunities you aren't capable of creating erm, er, because the er, situation is not right er, do occur and I wouldn't rule it out but erm, er, we haven't erm any major acquisition er, on, on, on the carpet there at the moment. +Erm, on entertainment, we're spending a lot of money on organic growth and have done over the past two or three years and er, it's very well spent but again, we're growing our businesses, erm, er, rather than acquiring them. +Alton Towers clearly is an exception but again, you have to pay a lot of money for it and it takes quite some time to get the return er, back and, and I would say that erm, many of Michael's erm, er, organic erm, er, expenditure will, will erm, provide er, a really good return rather quicker but in the long run we think Alton is good. +Erm, now that leaves us with er, really the er, the publishing, the educational publishing er, the newspapers, magazines, electronic publishing, in all those areas we're active and on the lookout. +We certainly, if you look at the breakdown of our sales er, we only sell about a hundred and fifty er, million pounds worth er, of goods and services in Asia, Pacific erm, we would certainly like to make acquisitions in that area just as we did in North America er, in the seventies and eighties and we have now small Pearson er, office, for instance in Tokyo, it's quite slow,erm, er, in that area but certainly we're on the lookout for acquisitions in, in Asia, Pacific. +In all of those publishing areas that you've mentioned, newspapers, books, electronic +Yes? +Karen from News Australia. +Would that include taking a stake in the er, the Fairfax float when erm, that takes place later this year? +Erm, we, we, we really er, like to be in a position of control in any of the acquisitions er, that we make er, where we are associates rather than, than having a hundred percent or a least erm, over fifty. +It is because for strategic reasons we've very want to make the investment, there's no other way of doing it. +Erm, to cut a long story short, if a attractive Fairfax erm, individual enterprise came up, we would be far more interested than taking a stake that was a, just an investment. +Er, the chances of it coming up seem to me highly unlikely. +Clearly, if it did we'd be interested. +Is your cost er, programme effectively complete er, or are we gonna be seeing more substantial redundancies this year? +Well, we've got our cost reductions as an ongoing process er, so it's never complete, you're always looking for ways to, to become more efficient or effective but I don't anticipate any redundancies er, any further redundancies but obviously if, if, if systems become available which improve our efficiency and effectiveness we, we have to take account of it. +What effect would a Labour government have on, in the U K, on Pearson's businesses? +Well, there's been quite a lot of, of, of chat recently that, that erm, because of cross-media ownership erm, companies that are involved in cross-media ownership would have, have problems. +I think that it is difficult to see under any clear complexion of government that our present holdings er, in newspapers, which are mainly the Financial Times which has a small erm, comparatively small circulation for a national newspaper and less than twenty percent in a television company would, would be affected by, by any government. +Er, whether they, a different government would legislate erm, against people having more than a twenty percent stake in er, B Sky B for instance remains to be seen. +It must be quite possible, which might mean that there will be some more shares er, available there but er, that is complete speculation. +Erm, I don't think that er, in structural terms therefore a, a change of government would er, make a great deal, a difference, then you come to er, the general effect of a, a change of government er, I think at the moment we're living in a situation of uncertainty and er, a clear majority erm, for any party would probably from a business point of view erm, remove the uncertain short term. +I think the view you take of the longer term, erm, er, becomes individual and speculative er, as once again you've got to erm, er, come to conclusions about inflation, about encouragement to the economy and er, you can read in many a good newspaper erm, their views on that. +Thanks er, did the provision for er, properties like Penguin and four and a half million for the year, did all of that come in the second half, because it's noticeable that Penguin is ahead something like what, thirty two percent, second half on second half. +So if that four and a half million was all incurred in the second half its underlying growth rate was something like sixty percent. +Er, were there any sort of distortions there in the second half period? +Well, Penguin always makes er, er, most of its profits in the second half but, but James would you like to answer. +It's more in the second half. +My colleague Mr who is closer to the ground reminds me that I think there was a small provision in the first half. +But we then took a view about, about future years because in a sense we've always been, obviously had to provide for the er, year impression. +Discretion now taking a much more realistic view about the New York property market which is, office market which is as lousy if not lousier than erm, than London and say that we ain't gonna relet these, we're not gonna sub-let these properties, let's take, let's take a hit, let's clean it out now. +And that was, that element was in the second half. +Sorry, would there be any exceptional stock provisions that were released, made in the first half, released into the second half for example? +So you talked about +Penguin? +Yes, cos you talked about +No, don't make no, no, no. +That wouldn't be the case, no. +Are you er, going to have an extraordinary profit from the sale of the stake in Pickwick? +Small loss. +Small loss. +Er, Hugh, would you, you haven't had a chance to say anything. +Would you like to er, make any comments on er, how a change of government might effect the Westminster Press? +Well, I think it erm, very, I mean I think as you said Chairman, if erm, there's a clear majority for one party it'll unblock a whole lot of delay and decision making which I think is going on and I think that that should be helpful. +I suppose the only problem is if there's er, gonna be another general election shortly after the one we're about to have, that'll just er, create a bit more uncertainty for a bit longer I'm afraid. +Er right. +Robert of Robert Fleming. +I noticed one of the, the Sunday papers had a little bit of a dig on you on strategy over the weekend. +Perhaps er, you'd just like to remind us erm, what your strategy is and no doubt how unfair you felt that comment was? +Well, our strategy is to be a concentrated conglomerate. +In other words, sticking to those sectors that we know and understand and which we chose for the nineties because we believe they had good growth prospects. +Er, we built on those sectors, during the er, past year with the initial uncertainty on the B Sky B situation er, we have been managing erm, our way through the recession, you've heard from Frank er, about the er, immediate short term measures we've taken. +Er, but in the long run we're on the lookout to continue to build both organically and by acquisition where appropriate er, on, on the main sectors. +And you've all heard the theme of quality which, which runs throughout our strategic picking. +Sorry, Eric er, there was something put up there, beyond your at first. +Yes,, James . +Erm, James put a slide up about accept included a figure of erm, eight million for exceptionals. +I wonder if you could just explain the consistent parts of that figure? +The eight million on exceptionals, James would you? +That, that is the, the change in exceptionals compared with nineteen ninety. +It isn't the total charge. +And it comprises er, redundancy provisions er, costs on abortive er, acquisitions or erm, consulting projects er, lease provisions in Penguin and other odds and sods bluntly. +I think we're talking at cross purposes. +I think the slide that Frank was referring to was the total charge for the year. +The eight million is the difference in the exceptional charge for ninety one compared with nineteen ninety. +That was a various analysis. +Er, Eric. +Can I . +You indicated that there's no sign of any er, improvement in your main markets er, but looking for er, optimistic er, calculations could you give us any indications of the er, the benefits of the er, non recurrence of the Gulf War in the first half? +Well, the non recurrence of Gulf War in the first half is pretty well balanced by the recession that is taking place at the moment and is er, showing as we all know, little signs of lifting. +I think a change in the political, direct and when say it, I don't mean a change, I mean a, erm, the outcome of the solution erm, to, to, to the present uncertainty, I think er, will be greatly helpful er, once the election is over in the U K. +Er, but it is, it's very, it's very early days er, as we all know. +You showed us a slide with net savings for nineteen ninety two of twenty million. +Can you actually just take us through those er on one of you slides you had a thing, net savings +Er the net savings on redundancies of twenty million pounds? +Are they only redundancies or is it just a net saving? +Oh, the net savings altogether. +Frank will now take us through the, the net savings of twenty million on redundancies. +You've done it once. +Yeah. +Well, the twenty million obviously just comes er, in prop well not in proportion because the salary levels differ but in proportion to the numbers er, made redundant in the individual companies. +It's quite difficult to, to get at erm, the other, all the other costs because they're a myriad of tiny things. +I mean the big ones erm, obviously are the erm, savings of the U S A on telecommunications and freight er, but then there's lots and lots of things, for instance, the one I mentioned at Minton, two hundred and fifty thousand and so in all of our businesses, you know those, many, many small items. +Is this a combination of the impact of the redundancies plus all these other , not just redundancies? +Yes. +Can I pick up on your comment, you do not see any upturn in any of your major markets. +Advertising revenue seems to be, there seems to be sometimes that there is some slight pick up, the advertising associations predicting a pick up there, one or two companies who have been reporting, have been talking about a little upturn in the first quarter of this year. +Did, you don't see any. +Does that mean that they are wrong, or you're losing market share? +Er, it doesn't mean that we're wrong, there are some categories of advertising er, that are showing slight signs and others that are not. +Er, Frank would you like to comment? +I'd, actually I think the problem is that you get the odd week er, and even the odd month, where things look better erm, but, but overall, then it slips again and er, overall erm, the end of February, there's no sign that, that volume is increasing from the previous year. +Erm, and that's in the F T and that's in W P and the odd category will move. +And, I talked to other publishers erm, including a very large one which will be nameless and they have a pretty good spread and their experience was the same as ours. +So erm, I don't think there's any signs of advertising here. +And on the, on the, on the television front again erm, there isn't a great deal on the television front and there's quite a bit of manipulation going on but erm, there isn't a great deal, deal of upturn. +B Sky B is ahead of last year but I mean that's a growing business, you would expect it to be. +No, no, advertising is, is still down. +It's still, it's been, in the first two months it's been going down on last year in volume terms. +We have Hugh here er, Hugh, any sign of us losing market share? +No sign of our newspapers losing market share, no. +I think the, I mean the, the huge drop that we had in situations vacant advertising in ninety, nineteen ninety one, when we fell from, I mean our job advertising was about twenty million pounds in nineteen ninety and was down to about eleven million in ninety one. +But erm, the position at the moment is that, I mean, the situation doesn't seem to be getting any worse. +Erm, and there are, there are some signs of erm, odd categories of advertising being slightly up but they are need to be counter balanced by others which are down too. +It's really very hard to detect any trend. +Your share price seemed to take a bit of a knock the other day when Roy made some comments about referring media conglomerates to the Monopolies and Mergers Commission. +Firstly, would you see any problem with that under a led government directly and secondly if Rupert were forced to sell off either some of his stake in B Sky B or some of his newspaper interests er, what would be your attitude to er, buying? +Er, I don't think that er, we would be likely to have a, a problem in selling down. +We only have sixteen percent of B Sky B and we have one national newspaper, the Financial Times, which, although influential, is relatively small circulation. +I don't see erm, a government of any complexion being likely to insist er, on our going down er, below twenty percent er, in television. +So, I don't, I don't personally see that as a direct threat at all and I think that also our, our er, our newspapers don't have any particular political bias of any sort, I think they treat each issue on its merits. +So, I don't see from Pearson's point of view that, that a government of any complexion will alter what we can and er, or can't do in relation to our current er, holdings. +Er, if any shareholder in B Sky B er, was selling shares, we would obviously consider er, whether we went up from our present sixteen percent er, to twenty percent but it would depend on the circumstances at the time. +Derek . +Could you comment briefly on Addison Wesley and the pattern of the, the major programmes in that business and er, what the outlook is for the current year. +The pattern of trading at Addison Wesley and, and the prospects for the current year er, Frank. +Well, the prospects for the er, current year are still good. +Erm, I mean I really can't, I don't expect them to surge ahead as they did last year but all the signs are that, that, they're doing very well and er, it's a very well managed business erm, great cost control er, I don't know whether you noticed recently that Meryl des described the erm, the management of erm, of A W as the er, I think it was the creme de la creme of the +Class act of the industry. +class act of the industry. +So it's a very well managed business. +The pattern is very much first half er, erm, loss or small profit, second half all the profit and in fact you should watch out for the bigger, the bigger Addison Wesley gets, the more the loss in the second half will be because we're investing for that sale +In the first half. +in the first half. +They're investing in the first half in that second half. +So, the chances are it will exaggerate more than anything else. +Er, and we have a very strong college front list er, which we would hope would er, would make a contribution again this year, more of a contribution. +Er, David , resident in America. +Would you like to make any general comments on the U S? +On the U S as a whole or on +Well, in relation perhaps to, to Addison Wesley. +Well, I think that the erm, the, as Frank has said, they, they have a strong college list for this year, the school business should be they can't repeat the maths programme success of last year although there is follow up business in other states. +So, there's strong underpinnings with what they've got and they are in the right areas of the market. +Erm, could I ask er, a little about er, Longman and er, and er, Penguin in nineteen ninety two and particularly in the case of Longman, is the momentum of profits improvement in the second half carrying, carrying through into nineteen ninety two? +Longman and Penguin in, in ninety two. +Er, what, what do we say about that? +Longman have made a very good start to the year and erm, and so they've progressed from day one, making last year I expect to continue. +Erm, and Penguin U S again have er, made a good start and the one area, David can talk about this better than I, but the one area that er, where there is an upturning in business activity and mo promise have come into the U S A. +So, you know, we expect erm, Penguin and A W er, Penguin U S certainly to go on and Longman to carry on as they are, improving. +David, do you want to say anything about the U S? +No, I think erm, in the, certainly in the consumer area which affects both Penguin and to some extent Royal Doulton, there are definite signs now of the U S economy turning around and that is likely to continue as, as the year goes on. +And certainly, trade book publishing did not do at all badly in nineteen ninety one in a recessionary environment and erm, there are, as Frank has mentioned particularly within Penguin, quite a lot of internal restructuring has gone on and one would hope that margins would improve over the next few years as a result of that. +While we're on the U S, could you say on the oil services er, how much of the er, good performances do you pumps turning round and again what are the prospects of that division for the current year? +Well erm, can everybody hear the questions or is it bet helpful to repeat? +It is helpful to repeat. +Er,to what extent er, was the er, was the performance of, of Camco erm, er dependent on a good performance from ? +Well, I'd like to qualify your question if I may put words into your mouth. +I think in fact er, had been doing quite well and the specific point that Frank was referring to was erm, the technology transfer that they did with a mar large chip manufacturer, which probably made a contribution in the second half, a net contribution of about five million dollars and that offset some of the weakness in, in other parts of Camco's business in the last quarter of the year. +And that er, technology transfer covers submersible pump technology which will be the standard pump line and the Czechs will have a non exclusive erm,li er licence to sell it in the Soviet Union which is a prime market er, and in other areas behind the old iron curtain. +And that's an arrangement which will be carrying on over the next few years. +Could you tell us please, how much we spent on Ghost House and Runaway Train and what you expect it to bring in, in rewards this year? +How much we spent on Ghost House and Runaway Train er, and how much er, profit we'll bring in this year. +Er, Michael . +The erm, total figure will end up, it isn't all completely spent yet, but it'll end up er, something between eight and ten million pounds. +It's impossible to judge exactly how many people will come in as a result of that and er, how much expenditure will be incurred because as you know we're in a recessionary period and as you've already heard there is concern about current trading, but I would hope that it would bring in er, something like a hundred and fifty thousand extra people, certainly in a good year I'd expect more than that but really that's about as much as I'm prepared to say with some additional spending which will be incurred at Alton Towers. +But obviously in a recessionary period, which we are certainly not out of yet, you have to remember that Alton Towers has a per cap of something like fourteen pounds a head at the moment, er, average of all people. +And therefore in a recessionary period when pressure is on people spending er, that sort of figure is under tremendous pressure. +Erm, a comment on B Sky B and contribution. +I mean, will there be any contribution by way of guar loan guarantees over the forecast, over the next two forecast years or, I mean my understanding was that there was a guarantee fee that, that erm, was still owed this year. +B Sky B and its contribution erm, to Pearson. +Frank. +Well, I mean, we don't, we don't intend to equity account B Sky B for the present time anyway. +Er, obviously the guarantee fees are a contractual obligation of B Sky B and er, so we er, we, Pearson are entitled to those and I mean, obviously as, as B Sky B becomes cash generative and erm, then cash will flow into Pearson and I th you know the schedule erm, and in that, in that way. +James, would you +James just said that we haven't taken any guarantee fees into this year's profit er, nor any interest on, on loan stocks. +That's something that we obviously would consider next, this time next year in the light of, of the performance and prospects and clearly on advice from, from those on the board. +But, but as the business continues to do, do better, as they're already doing rather well er, that becomes an issue. +Two completely different questions. +Can you just tell us what you've done to your entrance pricing for your various entertainment centres and also can you tell us why the Canadian profit's almost doubled in the year? +I couldn't hear the second question myself. +Your erm, on your allocation of geographical profits er, Canada's profits have almost doubled in the year. +Two totally separate questions, the first relating to entrance pricing at our entertainment businesses and we'll deal with that first. +Michael. +The erm, entrance price increases generally have been in line or slightly above inflation. +We normally aim and have achieved very successfully in recent years real price increases above inflation. +Last year, you'll remember, we had to absorb, in fact in the Tussauds group, about three quarters of a million er, pounds on the increase in V A T and that was a blow to us at the beginning of the season, you remember it was the budget more or less this time last year. +Er, this year hopefully er, with pressure, again as I said earlier but nevertheless we are hoping and having er, put in our new price increases for the season which is more or less beginning now. +I hope everybody understands er, Alton Towers is launching its new things today, Chessington opened this weekend, so we haven't been trading until this weekend in effect in our parks business. +London, of course, and our Amsterdam exhibition has been trading since the beginning of the year and the price increase is generally coming at the beginning of the season, which is more or less now for the parks, earlier for the exhibitions. +And the separate question related to trading profits erm, in Canada. +Why have they gone from eight million to fifteen million. +Er, James. +The er, combination of things. +First of all, during the course of the year our holding in the Canadian Financial Post reduced, therefore we took in less losses from that business. +Secondly, Penguin Canada returned the profits. +Thirdly, both Camco and Addison Wesley had very good years in that territory. +Further questions? +Sorry, can I ask another one? +Er, on your erm, West Thurrock er, receipt and profits, I think this is the last er, the last year erm, can you give us an indication of er, thought that you might have of filling the hole er, in nineteen ninety three when you cease to ? +Er, the major contribution from one transaction in relation to West Thurrock er, which will be coming to an end er, James would you like to comment on that? +Well, you're absolutely right, Eric, it does come to an end. +Er, to what extent the rift er, filled, I don't think it can be wholly filled as a function of the recovery in er, the market for land. +You know we have a considerable holding of er, land immediately adjacent to the reasonable shopping centre there and erm, if and when things become buoyant again and I went down there a couple of weeks and I was rather impressed by, by the look of the area, then clearly land prices go up and we have the capacity to, to generate more profit. +But, I think it would be illusory to think that we can maintain our profits from land in ninety three at the same level as it had been for ninety one and two. +That was the final question. +Well, yes we have a final question. +Tony from . +You say if, if all your loans to B Sky B were performing and you consolidated them erm, what your income would be? +If we consolidated? +If you, if all your loans to B Sky B were performing and you took credit for them what, what would the contribution be? +Ah. +Er, James. +You mean, if we took the interest from Guarantee fees? +Yeah. +You got an answer for that? +A useful few million. +An exciting shot. +It's like all good things to come, I don't like to count my chickens, so I'd rather not, not the little memorandums say, oh you've got another X million, if only we could take them in this year. +Any of my colleagues have a number in their mind? +. +Fifteen. +Thanks Charles. +Er, we have another question. +What criteria, I mean, will you use to determine whether or not you actually erm, take those into account in determining nineteen ninety two's figures? +Whether and when they're gonna be paid. +String that to whether, James. +When James, not whether. +Well, I regard the answer to whether as academic. +So, on happy, on that happy note could we go next door and have some coffee. + +Erm John +and Jonathan sit down but when I +I want you to read your essay about your home. +Simon I want you to read about your home as well +and as Martin is still giving out +I think I'll have you Christopher please to read yours about monster, so I'll have the two monster ones first and then the two home ones. +Right, just sit down for a minute and let's, Michael read his first. +The monster from the marsh. +I saw the monster arrive from the marsh he looked at the when I saw him I ran +The monster from the marsh. +When I was walking past the marsh one, one night, when I was on my way back from school I heard a rus rustling noise behind a bu bush, when I went up the, went up first to the bush a big dragon-like thing jumped out from behind the bush, it gave me such a fright I nearly fainted. +I started to run up, straight up the hill, erm lucky the monster was running straight at me and sticking out of the crowd and he tripped over and after the end +My home. +My home is near the trees and I live there in, in my house there is +I have lots of places in my +and I have one one pigeon and a dog. +My home is made of wood, +and the roof is made of tin and the colour of it is grey. +It has two doors, one, four windows, I, I don't have the garden or, oh, in my house there are six rooms and one of them is er, one, one of them is my, is my room and a picture and a +my my, and +room and er +My home. +I live in a tree so does my mum tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and dad live there. +Our house is made of wood and is dark green. +We have four windows and four doors, we have got a there is a big hill in front of it and it is good, but if it, if the tree house because we find the, the trees and then and then we were, we play in the tree house sometimes with the dog. +Inside our home we have a lot of furniture, we have four rooms, one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in the lounge and one in the kitchen +Right then. +I like erm, Christopher and Simon +yes I know, take your books and show +right, erm, Jonathan here +right John has written a story about his home right it's a good descriptive story on how people live +until one day they couldn't think of any way that you could may improve it. +My home. +I live in a tree house, my mum and my dad and my brother and my dog and my sister. +Our house is made of wood and is dark green, we have a four windows and four doors. +It has got wooden roof. +There is a big hill in front of it and it is good but erm because we climb the, the tree and climb it and we play in the tree house today with the dog. +Inside our home we have a lot of furniture we have four rooms and one in the bathroom, one in the bedroom and one in and one in the lounge and one in the kitchen here +Okay, right +So if we cut out the one +they might +it might flow a bit more easily might it. +That's good, it was alright apart from that you describe where John and +are living well +Yeah, I didn't see which sort of +No, did he describe the house though? +Yeah +Yeah, I think his description of where he was living in the tree house was very clear +I think he could improve it just a bit Jonathan +and then it might flow a bit more evenly, might it then, right Michael bring yours out now please. +Just a minute John, right Michael I want you to read yours through once more for me please. +Do it about the monster +Monster from the marsh. +When I saw the monster from the marsh, one night, I was, I was, I was frightened, I, I, I, I was he looked liked a when I saw him I ran back to camp and I felt frightened, I hid under my sleeping bag the end +Right, see Michael was describing that how he felt +Yeah +How did feel then? +Frightened +You think that he came out quite +What Christine has said then do you think? +Well you said he went under a sleeping bag +Aha +and just, I hid under my sleeping bag, er, then, I thought er the mon what would happen to the monster and so he might of stayed there on, you know, all, all night +John +Well he did say that the monster was rather large, he looked like a bird +with some feathers plucked out +What else could you bring in his bag? +Anything else he could of put in the hat Liam? +He vaguely saw the monster and then he ran back to the camp where he was camping, but he didn't describe +Where, where +Yeah, where +So he could of put a little bit in about how he ran back +Yeah +and what he went through in, in +that couldn't he? +Yeah +Right, the people who have not read an essay out yet, I want you to sit, just a minute Michael, next to somebody and I want you to read your essay to them and see what they think about it and how you could maybe improve it and I want Michael and John to go and show Steve your books as well now please, right boys do that now then, yes, could you take yours to show +please +Do we have to show both? +Not sure it's still working. +It's still working +The thingy +Is it recording us? +Is it recording? +Yeah +My dad's got all this +Sorry Steve, erm, +that you're not going to read your essay and +and that isn't +essay, either work your book or, and get it +er, yes, well it has to be up +and when you've finished it you can then do a picture about your + +at the meeting of the accounts and the reports o an of the directors and auditors for the year ended thirty first December eighty nine and the final dividend for nineteen eighty nine. +Secondly, the re-election of directors retiring er, and thirdly the appointment of the audit auditors and their remuneration. +The A G M will be followed, er, directly after this meeting, er, by an extraordinary general meeting erm to propose, er, an increase in the authorized share capital to seek authority to create new preference share capital to renew the board's power to allot shares to seek authority to purchase our own shares to reduce share capital by repaying existing preference shares to make some amendments to the employee share schemes to increase the aggregate amount available for directors' fees and to enable the company to issue summary financial statements. +I'll now call upon David of Coopers and Lybrand to read the report of the auditors to the members. +Thank you David. +Erm next, er I shall be proposing a resolution to receive the report and accounts and to declare a dividend. +Then before putting the resolution to the vote I shall say a few words and ask whether, ah, there are any questions. +The report and accounts have been in your hands for the statutory period er, and you've had the chance to read my statement. +I therefore propose that the report of the directors and the audited accounts for the year ended thirty first December nineteen eighty nine now submitted to this meeting be and are hereby er, received and that the final dividend of twelve point five pence, er, net per share, recommended by the directors be and is hereby declared payable on first June nineteen ninety, to holders of ordinary shares of the company on the register, three P M on fourth of May nineteen ninety. +We are entering the nineteen nineties as a well-defined well-balanced company both in the spread of our businesses and the geographical spread of our markets. +We now generate sixty five percent of our sales outside the United Kingdom. +We had another excellent year in nineteen eighty nine with a twenty percent increase in earnings per share and a nineteen percent increase in dividends per share. +Since eighty two er, when we merged the two Pearson public companies we have increased Pearson's earnings per share and dividends four-fold. +We have achieved this by selling top quality products and services expertly and aggressively in the international marketplace by acquiring businesses which complement and support our four chosen areas of operation and by disposing of businesses which had no obvious place in those areas. +I explained in my statement in the annual report about the management reorganisation which occurred at the end of nineteen eighty nine. +Although Frank has been a director of Pearson since nineteen eighty six and those of you been to this meeting in the last few years will have seen him before I'd like to introduce, ah, Frank to you in his new capacity Managing Director and Chief Operating Officer at Pearson. +Frank, will you take a bow. +Erm, many of you will also have seen Jean-Claude at previous meetings which he attended in the capacity as to Michel . +I'd like to welcome Jean-Claude to this his first A G M as a full member of the board. +Er, now to move on to events that have happened since the, er, annual report was printed many of you will no doubt have seen in the press that the same time as we announced our results at the end of March that we agreed to buy, er, the Alton Towers theme park er, in Staffordshire, from John , for sixty million pounds er, the purchase has now been completed. +Erm, Alton Towers is a really marvellous addition to the Group er, which intends to develop the business further both by attracting more visitors er, with new and exciting rides and also, er, by, through their unique knack of increasing visitor spending levels. +Er, we also announced at the same time as the Alton, er, Towers acquisition that Longman had acquired Rank Training for eleven and a half million pounds. +Er, this company has a leading position, er, in the fast expanding field of video training products for the corporate market and that's an area which Longman has identified, er, as a new area for expansion. +Longman is already one of the U K's leading providers of business education materials and will use this base to develop and expand the Rank Training business. +If the early nineteen nineties are as testing a time for U S and U K markets as many people predict I'm nonetheless confident that Pearson is better placed than most companies to withstand this. +In the first quarter of this year we've seen more moderate growth in those geographical areas but in nineteen eighty nine nearly forty percent of Pearson's trading ca profit came from economies outside the U K and North America and we expect our activities in these other areas to continue to grow at a satisfactory rate. +Well, I think that concludes, er, the, er er, remarks that I'd like to, er, make. +I've already put the, er, resolution to the shareholders but, erm er, before voting on it I'd be pleased to answer any questions. +And could you, could you say your name and +My name is Mr , I am an ordinary shareholder of some years' standing. +I welcome your speech because you have a quite a good habit of optimistic outlook future which is contrary to what a lot of other chairmen are saying. +it does, it does the company very very no chance in the following year share prices have dropped enormously. +I noted you that the company bought Alton Towers. +Now I'm not I'm asking is whether its shareholders could write in to apply for a concessionary ticket to Alton Towers and get a reduced price if they so wish. +Thank you very much. +Thank you, Mr . +Er er, I've, er I just I'm just saying that, er, that, that last year er, when I made a few remarks that they were misquoted by Reuters and we did leave the meeting and the share price dropped by er, several P and we had to send out a correcting statement so this year we've taken the precaution of issuing a press release er, at the same time as er, er, I'm making these remarks so I hope at least they won't be misinterpreted. +Erm as to I think I heard you say er, ask about concessionary prices to Alton Towers, was that correct? +Ya. +Well er we, we've taken a, a, a policy view over the years because the group has a number of er very attractive er products and, and, and, and shareholders have frequently asked if was possible erm, to have concessions in all sorts of areas and the view we've taken is that it involves a, a, a, a, a great deal of administration and that our real job is to er increase the profits of the business er,a as well as we can and then to pay dividends to the shareholders erm who will er, er, then use that money er, hopefully to buy a good number of our products. +Yes sir. +Good morning. +My name is and, er it appears to me, sir that you like to make life difficult for the managers to negotiate wage settlements with the employees of the company I note that your salary has increased by more than fifty percent in one year. +That I don't think will please John Major or Mrs Thatcher for being, er seeing you fuelling and other directors and all the directors of our public companies fuelling inflation with their inflationary wage rises doesn't seem reasonable whatsoever and I think that er one should consider this in a different light. +Thank you for er, question. +There's been quite a lot of comment in the press erm, on high levels of, of salary of, of remu remuneration for directors and I think it might be helpful er, if I was were t were, were to make some general remarks on the background er, of how we er, approach directors' remuneration. +On the question of my own er er, er, position I think I would ask, er, in a minute to have Sir Simon to say something because er, er, er, I don't, I I, you know, I don't set my own remuneration. +Er, and in general we have a, er, panel of the non-executive directors who set the directors' salary in relation to the other directors I am also on that panel er, but obviously not in relation to my own salary. +Erm we have, er, access to the advice of professional advisers, namely and Co our policy is to keep base salaries at the mid-point of market competitive range erm, and provide bonus opportunities that can lift total take home pay into the upper quartile. +Erm the bonus element of the Pearson scheme is highly leveraged we are very keen to achieve above-average performance for our shareholders and let me give you an example, if in nineteen ninety erm Pearsons as a company achieved say five percent growth in earnings per share erm the directors' remuneration, and by the way that's not a forecast so I want to make that absolutely clear, it's just an illustration if earnings per share increase by five percent and you could say, er, therefore we would expect directors' remuneration to be perhaps increased by five percent that wouldn't be the case at all our directors' salaries would actually halve erm, Ill say that again, directors' total take home pay would halve because the salary element wouldn't, wouldn't alter. +Erm so er i i i er, I think that erm, er er er y you'll see that erm th th the the situation isn't, erm, er, perhaps quite as simple a a as you might, erm as you might think erm and, er, next year if that happened er, perhaps there'd be headlines saying Pearson directors er, half their remuneration. +Erm and the reason we set this is that we are erm er the er, er we believe that this above average er growth in the in the, erm, er, earnings per share of the company is what shareh increases in shareholder value really depend on and er again to give an example erm, if you take the, the, the, the, the, the F T S E a hundred companies erm, and you do analyses of their er, growth rates and earnings per share you will find that the average growth rate was eleven and a half percent and ours er, was er, twenty, twenty percent so it's above average remuneration erm, er, er, for above av for above average performance. +And I don't think I can say much more than that but perhaps Simon +I hardly feel, sir, that erm erm you don't have some influence on your salaries and the other directors' salaries, I've heard a lot of directors and chairmen say that they have no influence on their own salaries. +This doesn't cut any ice with me because I believe that none of these directors would be in on the board if they weren't invited there by yourself. +So erm +Erm well, I, I, I beg to correct you. +Er these directors are the bosses of international, erm, companies themselves. +They have no, they have no personal, erm, relationship with me er, I'll give you the example of one of our, erm er, er er erm, er most recent directors who's, who's just joined the board, Mr Ruben , who's the head of Colgate Palmo Palmolive, and I just described to him to you how we, erm how we, er er er er er selected him. +We went to, er, we felt that we needed, er, a U S director because much of our business is in the U S with wide marketing experience we went to, erm, headhunters er, in America who drew up er, a list of sixty people, culled from their own research erm we narrowed that down as an executive to twelve. +We presented these twelve names, er, to the board of Pearsons erm, the board selected three er, we kept one in reserve and I was sent out to America by the board to see, er, the two, er, leading candidates. +Erm, I met Mr for the first time in the airport lounge at, erm er, er, Kennedy Airport erm, we discussed at great length and had a very interesting discussion erm, er, Pearsons erm, he accepted er, the job and h I, he has no obligation to me whatsoever and he is one of the er, members of the er, remuneration committee, and I actually take offence at what you're saying. +Simon +I'm very sorry you take offence, sir. +no offence meant and I I really hope that you do not take offence in that way. +Erm +This may be out of order but, er, personal experience is that the, er, non-executive directors who were involved in the compensation made a recommendation that, er Michael 's salary be higher erm, than he in fact a agreed with, he requested that we lower it and in fact that was what was done. +Well, I do hope that our public companies take into consideration inflation in the future. +Er, thank you very much. +I'm very +Ladies +sorry, sir, that if you took offence at anything I said. +There was no offence meant. +Thank you. +La ladies and gentlemen +Lord has asked me to say a few words about erm er, directors' salaries and particularly about his own. +Now I don't stand here in any sense of defending these salaries, in fact I think our policy is entirely right and it is not inflationary. +Ergo, we have to look, I think, at the record of this company over the last few years and as the chairman said in his introductory remarks the growth in the company, the growth in the earnings per share, has been very remarkable. +The, er, credit to that goes to the chairman and chief executive and the executive directors and they are responsible for the business and it is right, in my view, that they should be rewarded for it and encouraged to take risks to work very hard on our behalf to ensure that that growth continues er, er, that benefits the, er, company, it benefits the country it benefits the er ergo, people who are working for it, it is not inflationary because we are looking at productivity and the productivity in the company has increased significantly. +Now, as the chairman said we base the salaries of directors on two elements an element of base salary which looks at market levels and we ergo, have a fair base which reflects a sort of medium to upper level of companies of this size we then leverage, very carefully, a bonus scheme related to performance and I believe that is the right thing to do and I believe and so do my fellow directors who sit on that committee believe that it is one of the reasons that we've seen the great growth in this company over the last five years which you've achieved and which actually the Chancellor of the Exchequer would very glad about because it is increasing the wealth and the benefit of this country, particularly as a lot of those earnings are coming from overseas and will in, in time be repatriated in Britain. +So I believe we're doing the right thing, I think it's for the good of the country I think it's for the good of the company and the shareholders. +I'd just like to add er, that I didn't take offence at the question, I think it was a perfectly qu fair question, it was the, the inference of, of rigging salaries. +Er right, could we go on to perhaps a less emotive issue. +Er, my name's John . +Could I make a constructive suggestion in this context of board salaries or remunerations or compensation packages or bonuses I'm saying that in a slightly tongue in cheek way because I believe that the majority of shareholders don't understand the differences between these concepts, as you gentlemen evidently do. +Most ordinary shareholders have never had a total remuneration package and have never been part of a performance-related bonus scheme. +Would you be prepared, er chairman and gentlemen to consider Pearson giving a lead in spelling out, in the next annual report the precise relationship between the bonus element and some parameter which I gather from your earlier remarks is probably earnings per share. +I think this might help to defuse the whole situation which is getting a little bit hot, I've been +to a lot of A G Ms recently and this topic is coming up at most and one feels that it almost may become an issue at the next general election. +W would you be prepared to consider this at another, at, at a future board meeting? +I think that's a very constructive suggestion and we'll certainly er, consider it er, in drawing up the er, annual report and accounts next year. +Yes, lady at the back. +Erm er, my name's , an ordinary shareholder for long-standing erm, it would be very interesting, I don't know whether this is possible now or maybe following on from what the speaker has said, if we had some idea of the American system which is er, I only know very little about it er I, just how that works because we have presidents and vice presidents and, er I think it work rather differently. +So it would be rather interesting if we could have some sort of comparison. +Would one of our American directors like to +I would have to confess that by American standards the er er the, er, directors of Pearson, the executive directors of Pearson and er, the chairman of Pearson and I think that the directors of most English companies are significantly underpaid by U S standards that's not to say it's right but, er, that seems to be the, er ha the current trend. +Actually, I, I didn't mean that, er regarding the actual amounts because I'm fully aware of the fact that the American ones are very much higher, it's merely the method by which they are erm +My own feeling is that there is a great similarity and that there is a a base salary normally which is set on a competitive level with a target as in this case perhaps at the mid-point, perhaps at the sixty percent level or whatever it would be and that a significant uplift in compensation can be obtained by a bonus scheme, if the performance of the company as measured in earnings per share, return on capital, return on equity or any m other measure if those objectives are met. +So I think that th the scheme that erm Pearson uses is er, not at all dissimilar to what would be a fairly standard practice in the United States. +and people like that, but er, I believe that the, the way it's actually organized is different. +It, again I have to, I have to say +that talk about the company of which I'm chairman is that there is a personnel and compensation committee which in the absence of a chief executive sets the chief executive's remuneration and with the presence of the chief executive, although he's not, I'm not a member of that committee we work on the other senior executives of the company, it's quite similar to the process used here in your company. +Yes sir. +My name is I have been a shareholder and other members of my family for many years much has already been said about directors' and your particular erm, fees in particular. +But er it, it, it er it appears to have been overlooked that, erm some of the directors who were in the bracket in nineteen eighty eight of two hundred and thirty thousand to two ninety five thousand have been increased from three hundred and fifty five thousand this year to a top of four hundred thousand. +Er, you have also erm mentioned about the bonus er, can I take it from what you have said that this is profit-related? +If not I suggest it should be and, er, therefore if unfortunately the profits of the company did go down in the foreseeable future the salaries of yourself and your directors would be reduced. +As regards the salaries of the U S A we've read and seen about so many companies that pay sky-high for v various salaries and other schemes, we don't want that in this country but we do want a degree of evenness and I would repeat as somebody has already said, that your salary has gone up fifty six percent which is very, very high. +Now there was one other thing if you would care to take it is that you said that it would involve a great deal of organization for concessionary tickets for Alton Towers or Tussauds or any others. +Erm Ready Mix have a theme park in Th Thorpe Park and there's no problem there of issuing tickets to shareholders for erm, entertainment of their, their families. +They d don't make so much fuss about it they distribute it and it gets on very satisfactory and people er, are very happy to receive these tickets. +I think the question of turning it down, that a lot of work is er, forgive my bluntness nonsense. +Er one other thing is the the share capital is sixty five billion pounds. +It's true that we had a issue erm nineteen eighty five but the reserves are now six hundred and fifty million. +Whether you have given this the same consideration of the increase in, er, directors' salaries I don't know, but I think y it's worthy of, er, a further consideration. +Er one last thing er, do we need so many as eight non-executive directors which also to be paid? +You've got five executive directors I should think that's adequate with one or two outside directors to bring outside knowledge or experience but, er thirteen is too many I suggest. +Er well there are a number of, of points there and I'll, I'll try and cover them all. +The first you asked again about, er, directors' salaries er, or directors' er er remuneration erm, and I would only say that all the directors are er bonuses are linked to earnings per share. +Er, I hoped I'd made clear that if the profits of Pearsons erm er not only if they went down but even if er, there was only a small erm, increase in earnings per share er next year that the the directors' salaries would be very considerably reduced and I thought I'd already made that erm, er, directors' erm remuneration total take home pay would be considerably reduced thought I'd already made that point. +Erm on er, Alton Towers which you brought up again er the question is where do you stop? +Er, it isn't just Alton Towers, it's whether you should get discounts on Penguin Books it was whether you got, er, bottles of Chateau le Tour erm it, it requests for many different things and, er,you know, alright er, it we could, we could, if Alton Towers seemed to be what, er, all shareholders wanted er, perhaps we, we could consider that but, but, but we do have a number of a attractive products. +Erm er your third point was about the balance sheet and I think I'd ask the finance director +Yes we, we will give consideration to that of course erm +Sorry, can I +Apologies. +Erm we will, course we will give consideration to erm a further issue which I think is what you were asking us to do. +All that does, in effect, as you know is i i is reduce the unit price share price, it has no other effect erm a and I think it's purely cosmetic myself and nowadays I think a share price of around seven hundred P which is, er where the shares are currently hovering, is not e enormously disproportionate but of course we'll keep it under consideration. +Erm and your last point was about, erm, er the number of directors and particularly er, outside directors, non-executive directors. +Well all I can say is that, erm Sir Simon was being extremely modest when he said that the development of this company er, has been due er, entirely to the executive directors. +That that isn't actually the case erm the non-executive directors have been enormously helpful in, er, the field of strategy in giving the executive advice er they play a very full er, role in the develop er m development of the company and erm they also er, keep the er executives, er, in order. +Who would sack me? +Ch chairman, I wonder if I may just add to that +I'm sure you know that the Bank of England the Bank of England have made a very strong point that on balance there should be more non-executive directors than executive directors in the company and, er it is felt very strongly that to get a good mix of non-executive directors really does protect the shareholders' interests and, er I think we're very much following the lead, er, of the Bank of, of England, erm, in this particular respect. +And I think that we are very lucky in the very high calibre of non-executive directors we've been able to attract. +Name, sir. +On Saturday afternoon last +What? +Your name! +Oh sorry. +, same as jam! +Er, it's very difficult, yes you all laughed when I asked a question last year from over there to get a capital P in Pearson because you all laughed it took twenty weeks to get it in The Times, do you remember? +Right. +Now we've got a company secretary he is er, an F C I S Chartered Institute Secretaries that's much better than a chartered accountant, they're no damn good as secretaries, right! +And the +L L B people really they're not up to much, are they? +Now this chap is supposed to have constructive commonsense forensic ability, what do we mean,the police? +Affability to laugh off his twenty week delay in getting my capital P! +Right. +Now can we look at his pay cos you all been busy on the directors' pay and this chartered secretary is really important and so that he could be available on a Saturday afternoon if he was wanted. +Well now, the problem you say it's emotional shall I say it was blasphemous, it was Rushdie. +Now, erm, the situation there was that my vicar came to see me and, erm, what happened was that we've got three churches well luckily, one of them only has about twelve in it another has eighty and another sixty and he said well what did he do about Rushdie? +And so well I didn't like what he was doing but at any rate it happened on Sunday morning er, somebody read the lesson and it was Saint, Saint John and there were chapters and of course it was skipping about the verses all over the place, you just got fed up with verses. +Right he then went to the pulpit and he said that he was gonna preach about Lazarus actually but he's a quiet fellow and he shouted at the top of his voice I'm speaking about satanic bondage! +Er, Mr +Yes, is +er +that blasphemous? +er,n what, what, er, er, I think you need to do is ask your question because er +Oh right +to have a narratable speech is not in order +I'm so sorry. +yes, yes right. +Is erm do we know anything about Rushdie or anything? +Another point is, up in Hull in October er, somebody wrote a book about Mahatma Ghandi and he got death threats so the vice chancellor of Hull University he's in Fenners he's a director of J H Fenners in industrial. +So I suggest the secretary rings up the secretary of Fenners don't say you're listed in newspapers cos industrial people don't like that but have a word with Fenners and they'll tell you what's gone on. +So, what is your question? +The question is can a small shareholder do anything for Rushdie, am I doing damage for Pearson? +I'm trying +Mm. +to help Pearson +Mm. +not pick it to bits over its directors' salaries. +Er, well thank you for your offer of help it is, er i i i i it's er er clearly a very difficult issue, there are erm, there are important issues of principle er, in, er conflicting directions it is not an easy one and erm er er er I don't er, really know that there is anything er that, er any shareholder of Pearsons is able to do about it. +Thank you. +Are there any further questions? +Thank you. +Well I will now put the resolution to the meeting those in favour would they raise their hands thank you those against there is nobody so I can declare it carried unanimously. +Thank you very much. +Erm the next matter is the re-election of the retiring directors and a separate resolution is required for each one er I've asked Mr to propose the first resolution. +I propose that Mr J H , a director, retiring by rotation be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. +Right. +Thank you Mr . +I put the resolution to the meeting. +Those in favour any against? +Thank you. +I declare the resolution carried. +Mr to propose Sir Simon . +I propose that Sir Simon , a director retiring by rotation be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. +Put the resolution to the meeting. +Those in favour any against thank you. +I declare the resolution carried. +Er Mr +I propose that Mr , a director retiring by rotation be and if hereby re-elected a director of the company. +I put the resolution to the meeting. +Those in favour any against I declare the resolution carried. +Mr . +Er, I'd like to propose that Mr J C , a director retiring in accordance with article eighty of the company's Articles of Association be and is hereby re-elected a director of the company. +I put the resolution to the meeting. +Those in favour any against thank you. +I declare the resolution carried. +Erm we now come to the appointment of the auditors and the question of their remuneration. +Under the provisions of the Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five their appointment er, requires the annual approval of the shareholders. +I therefore propose that Coopers and Lybrand be and are hereby appointed auditors to the company, to hold office from the conclusion of this meeting until the conclusion of the next meeting er, of the company at which accounts are laid for the company in accordance with section two four one Companies Act Nineteen Eighty Five and that their remuneration for this period be fixed by the directors. +I put the resolution to the meeting. +Those in favour any against? +Thank you. +I declare the resolution carried. +Well, that concludes the business of the A G M and, er it's now twelve forty and er we can move straight on to deal with the business of the extraordinary general meeting. +Erm you already had, er, the opportunity to read my letter of the eighteenth of April er, circulated with the report and accounts, which fully explains the proposals being put forward and which are for firstly increasing the authorized share capital of the company creating two new classes of preference share er, renewing the board's authority to allot shares renewing the board's power to modify preemption rights authorizing the company to purchase its own er, ordinary shares reducing the company's share capital by repaying the existing preference shares er, making certain amendments to the company's employee share schemes increasing the aggregate sum available for directors' fees and authorizing the company to issue summary financial statements. +Erm I hope that the, er, circular er pretty fully explains er, these proposals but, er if there are er, questions er, I would be very pleased to answer them. +Well, if there aren't any questions er, I would return to the resolutions, er, separately and I would propose the first one which is an ordinary resolution namely it's resolution one, set out in the notice of meeting to increase the authorized share capital of the company. +I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against? +I declare the resolution carried, it's an ordinary resolution. +Erm secondly I propose a special resolution, resolution two, set out in the notice of the meeting to create and allot fifty thousand preference shares of U S dollars, a hundred er, each and a hundred billion er, preference shares of one pound each er, I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against? +I declare the er, er special resolution er, carried. +Erm I propose that ordinary resolution, resolution three set out in the notice of the meeting to grant authority to the board to exercise the powers of the company to allot ordinary shares er, this is an annual er, event I put the resolution to the meeting, those in favour any against? +I declare the, er, resolution carried as an ordinary resolution. +Erm next I propose as a, er, resolution four which is a special resolution and s set out in the notice of the meeting and is to modify to a limited extent, the obligations relating to the allotment of shares for cash contained in section eighty nine of the Companies Act. +Er I put the resolution to the meeting, those in favour any against? +I declare the resolution carried as a special resolution. +Next resolution five which is an ordinary resolution er, set ou set out in the notice of the meeting which is to authorize the company to make market purchases of the ordinary shares of the company. +This again is an annual. +I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against I declare the resolution, er, carried er,as an ordinary resolution. +Er resolution six is a special resolution set out in the notice of the meeting and is to reduce the company's share capital by repaying the five erm hundred and one thousand, three and a half percent cumulative preference shares of one pound, er, each at par. +I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour +S I well I asked for questions before, Mr , but erm what is your question? +Why is there a need, sir, to repay the five hundred and one thousand pounds of the three and a half percent cumulative pref shares it's quite a low interest involved. +What a low interest share? +Well this gives us the ability er, for a tidying up operation but the finance director will give more details. +Thank you very much. +It's helpful in the context of the dollar preference shares we want to issue because one of the factors of this very small, and as you say cheap er, historic issue of preference shares is that, er no preference shares other than those can be repaid prior to that and the dollar shares we wish to issue which are permanent shares, can be er, can be erm repaid at our option and we do want to keep that flexibility in the context of either if interest rates get very high or if the tax treaty between the U S and the U K changes to make them more onerous on the company and in those circumstances we would be inhibited by the existence of this small historic issue of preference shares and therefore it is on balance, although you're quite right there, a cheap er, source of capital in themselves it is helpful to the company in the wider sense I believe if they are repaid. +I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against declare the resolution er, carried as a special resolution. +Er, next is resolution seven which is an ordinary resolution set out in the notice of the meeting, and it is to authorize the directors to amend the company's employee share schemes in the manner set out in the circular dated eighteenth of April nineteen ninety to members of the company. +I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against I declare the resolution carried as an ordinary resolution. +Erm resolution eight er, set out in the notice of the meeting to increase the aggregate annual sum available for directors' fees to two hundred and fifty thousand pounds I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against I declare the resolution carried as an ordinary re resolution. +Erm finally, resolution nine which is a special resolution set out in the notice of the meeting er, and it's to alter the company's articles to enable the company to issue summary financial statements. +I put the resolution to the meeting those in favour any against thank you very much, I declare the resolution carried as a special reso resolution. +Erm, that concludes the business of the extraordinary general meeting erm, thank you very much for attending and making it a lively meeting and, erm, my colleagues and I will be pleased to, erm meet you in the foyer er, where refreshments are being served. +Thank you very much. + +long summer break. +I just want you to remember the video, someone you don't know is a? +Stranger. +Right. +You don't take sweets you to don't don't take drinks, presents money or +Don't take anything. +That's right, don't take anything. +You don't get in someone's car cos someone you don't know is a? +Stranger. +What can one say? +They know it already Miss. +You've been here lots of times too haven't you. +You told us before. +I know I have, yes I know I have. +been here loads of times. +And we've watched, and we've watched the video before. +Shh shh shh. +And we've watched the video before, yes, and we keep learning and we keep coming to tell you don't we? +Because it keeps happening, boys and girls in their summer holiday keep get getting taken away by people they don't know and nasty things done to them. +So all we want you to do is remember the video remember Pippin yeah? +And play safely till you come back to school next term. +Play safe and never go with strangers. +Strangers. +Like James did. +never. +Like that James did, yes that little boy of three, James did didn't he? +Two. +Two or three whatever, I've just been +Two +corrected. +Alright. +Two. +Who's James? +Thank you Miss. +Thank you. +Will you do one thing before you go though class? +Will you promise me when you go home tonight you be the teachers and your mum and dad be the children and you tell them all about Stranger Danger and you tell them you're never gonna go with strangers and see what your mum and dad says to you. +Yeah, will you do that for me? +Yeah. +Well done. +They don't live with me. +Oh +I always tell him that. +Good man. +Thank you very much indeed, thanks for your time. +See you later class. + +Okay,le let's get started! +We're, we're going to conclude now the discussion of the various ways in which, bacteria, in particular er lead to the production of infective disease and really to centre round, centres round the discussion of the pathogenesis, that is the mechanism by which the disease is produced and lunanspach. +And I hope to run through today, basically, a set of examples of specific infective positions which show particular virulence factors er manifest themselves in terms of clinical disease. +We start with er er a fine and exciting topic for Monday morning the topic of boils and in their finalist form they're shown here as starike. +But, the sa the very same organisms responsible for that relatively moderate appearance can also produce blocked er region of Prince Charles, the carbuncle with which in it's most er florid form can break down and produce the series, but really effectively interconnecting . +If we sample one of these cavities in which the process is er which produce boils er are going on, almost inevitably we find this organism staphylococcusorius and offspotulates have been clearly fulfilled with organism and this disease most notably by a bunch of of medical students who are subjected to all sorts of tortures by their professor of microbiology back in the nineteen fifties. +And over the years it's been possible to identify a number of factors produced by these bacteria that seem to make sense in terms of the pathology and the conditions. +Now the pathology is by a chief information and i in fact, the chief information could be provoked merely by the presence of organisms. +You will, you will recognise from your immunology that the presence is certainly foreign antigenic materials can lead immediately to, to the acute alternatives. +But, notable inside er the material that characterises the boils and abscesses, there is a cell death, both of bacteria and of the both the defending cells and the structural cells. +And, to a very large extent tri cell death can be related to the ability of staph orius to produce elicit toxins, toxins which actually leave the cell death and . +But the characteristic of this puss forming organism is that the legions it produces are wooled off, that is they're relatively localized. +And although the er, the causal relationship is not completely established, it is a very helpful way of remembering that one of the principle distinguishing features of this organism which separates it from other members of the genus staphylococcus it pr it produces this enzyme to coagulate things on and the effects of this enzyme are illustrated here as against the control preparation, you see a clot form due to the action of this enzyme on clotting practice which has been put into this test tube serum. +So this is almost certain a virulence factor but is also very useful in differentiating pathogenic species of staphylococci from non-pathogenic species. +And, as as you'll be hearing in later er stages of the course there are many non-pathogenic species of staphylococci. +It's worth also mentioning, since you saw it in the practical class, that staphylococci in general produce this enzyme catalase all of these er lo thi this is the enzyme which breaks down hydrogen peroxide and detoxifies it. +All of these factors together lead us an to recognise as it a puss forming organism which is often recognised by the term hyogenic organism, ability to produce puss in er the form of reactions it initiates. +Now I want at least, to intro introduce the possibility in the series of diagrams I'm going to show you in this lecture that we can relate it to the four stages of pathogenesis that we, we outline briefly er, in the last lecture. +The first stage being the establishment, the next stage being penetration, the third stage being damage, what actually produces the damage in the disease, and the fourth stage is, if the disease is going to last for any period of time the ability of the organism to persist. +I'm going to introduce this abbreviated momentictiture here in the hope that during the course of the lecture I'll be able to add comments about which of these factors lead to which of these results. +Er, but if we run out of time and I find we haven't we we we can't fit it all in I'd like you all to attempt to do this for yourselves after er, the lecture is over. +Okay? +So, establishment for staphylococcusorius is often not an important feature because in the majority of infections we're talking about an endogenous infection, the organism was there in the first place. +Penetration in many instances is not related to a property of the organism itself, in most instances it's re related to some form of injury in which the organism is moved from it's normal skin location to a deep tissue location. +So we won't mention these factors here, although in in some instances er, these properties are important to talk about for staph orius. +The damage, is fairly obvious to see is produced by these two and it's worth pointing out that persistence can be related to this catalase enzyme. +Staphylococci have some degree of resistance to killing by phagocytes and yo you should recall that phagocytes er, one of the mechanisms by which phagocytes kill intercellular organisms is the production of reactive oxygen intermediates and catalase is one of the ways that these can detoxified and th there's fairly good evidence that the catalase enzyme enables er,staph orius to persist. +Okay. +So, that's, that's the first example of a very common condition. +Let's move on now to consider a very important type of infection such as meningitis. +You recognise by particularly common in children not recognised by the particular posture that they adopt and extended neck, rigid neck due to the inflammation of le , lymphees which I will resist being a reflection of the neck, completely rigidly. +It's a disease which, if it a , they're fortunate enough to re , recover from the disease, if it's been severe enough the inflammation may have involved er, some of the cranial nerves, and here we can see a third nerve palsy er as a result of er, the process. +If you take a sample er, of ce the cera cereblis fluid during the course of acute bacteria meningitis you will find it's drowning, drowning, not due the fact that it's an organism, but present, being due to the presence of puss cells. +This is another biogenical fluid and, in about a third of the cases you will find this, very faintly with them +Mm mm. +which you can just about see here a in conjunction with the puss cells with which it is busily +the life and death, life and death tackle. +This organism is the fastidious grand negative rod you saw in the erm practical class innocuous influenzi. +And it is a a very important pathogen responsible for about a third of the cases of meningitis in in this country almost exclusively in children. +Now, the process we recognise in the pa pathogenesis of meningitis due to this organism is as follows, first of all and then it is able, by, mechanisms not completely described but we could probably involve this transpschycosis er phenomenon that er, I I briefly mentioned last time. +First of all, penetrates from the into the bloodstream and then into the cerebral spinal fluid. +Now the basis for the pathogenesis is not well enough established for us to expect you to understand the details of how it achieves these processes, but one thing which is remarkably clear is that the organism is a capsule producing organism and that once it gets into the er cerebral spinal fluid that predominately is an acute inflammatory . +We do recognise establishment factors, that is adhesions in this part of the process and it is very clear that the capsule is one of the factors which allows the organism to pe , persist because it helps the organism to resist phagocytosis. +You'll notice that the damage in this instance is actually the result of the acute inflammatory response, not particularly some form of direct noxious effect of the organism, so the contribution of the host is absolutely critical. +Now, the reason we we focus on the capsule as illustrated on the right here is that hymophylus have many different capsular types, but but only one type appears to be associated with meningitis. +This type B capsule refers to a particular pulse +and has it's so important in the pathogenesis of the capsule that antibodies to it can be used er,ca , er can actually completely prevent the disease and we end up with a capsule vaccine based on the type B pulse . +Plus, referencing with the other two organisms which produce meningitis in, in humans it is very prominent that both of these, licea meninigitipitus and staphylococcus are also very prominent capsule mechanisms. +Hello! +That's like the type. +H I for hymopholus influenzi. +And that's, that H I is actually the th th H, H I B is the acronym for the vaccine. +There's a new vaccine introduced last October which is being er, used for the first time in this country to prevent meningitis in children. +Is that just the name of the vaccine? +H, well H I B is a, an abbreviation for the strain of hymopholus that produces the infection, but the name of the vaccine the H I B vaccine, yeah. +Okay? +I should say that a, a lot of this information will be covered again during this course, what I'm trying to do now is to bring together the the themes in a pathogenesis of infection that I introduced last week into the practical context of clinical infections. +And to to, to try and illustrate to you why we focus on particular virulence factors for particular organisms. +Move on now to to look at an area that's er not frequently er doesn't impinge a great deal on life in this country but it certainly does for travellers and for many people in the developing world. +This is the topic of secretory diarrhoea produced by infective agents. +This is a dramatic disorder of the small intestine which produces a massive outflow of water electrolytes that can be fatal within a matter of hours after the onset of disease! +We recognise two agents which are er, responsible in bacterial causes of this process,th there are many others but these are certainly the most important. +choleri, the cholera vacilus and er, an acronym here, ETEC, I wouldn't worry about taking down the full er, er , it actually stands for e entrotoxigenic ecolytes, it's a strain or a group of ecolars that are able to produce this effect. +These diseases are common in areas er where an out pouring of water from the individual is squared up with a ou , out pouring of people into the water, then you can appreciate that that transmission is very er, readily promoted under those circumstances. +The effects on the, the individual are very dramatic! +Dehydration, er can produce death within a matter of fe , er a few hours and and an understanding of the mechanism by which this dehydration leads us into one of the most effective forms of heat treatment er, ever produced. +A prominent feature of secretory diarrhoea is that effective and normal bowel in,yo you ca , you can ignore this sign are almost indistinguishable, so despite this dramatic change in the physiology of the small bowel, borthalogically it actually looks quite normal. +And you have a normal meconium. +Now, the organisms that produce this effect haven't, have this target which is around zero for the choleri , the villi of a small intestine and the both of these organisms have pro prominent adhesion mechanisms. +Let's just show you something with that. +In an affected small bowel you will see the grey background with these tiny little curved rods present the whole area of the er, the villi is covered by the organisms which are er stuck down effectively by the processes which you ca , you can't really see them in the transmission micrograph, but they are attached to specific receptors on the surface of the entrocite membrane. +Once they've got there, the organism really goes no further. +Both the cholera organism and the ETEC organism secrete toxins referred to here as C T for cholera toxin and LT for the le Lethane toxin. +It is very striking that these toxins are actually almost exactly the same molecule! +So that although these are er fairly different relatives in terms of bacteria it's striking that the ETEC organism has been able to acquire in some way almost exactly the same gene that's present in choleri. +And, this toxin when released from these tightly organisms disorders the er the physiological activity of the lining cells, the empha cells. +The molecular oh we've lost a slide! +The molecular basis for this is very well understood and forms one of the important themes in er the effects of e , exotoxin in human cells. +This toxin is composed of two components er, of binding components and active component. +Binding component binds to specific receptors on the emphacyte and the active component penetrates into the cell and inactivates the controlling mechanism on the production of . +And this is the cell that er, is possessed by several other toxins that affect, not just the gut but other parts of the body as well. +I should point out that in one of the features of adhesions is that it takes two to tango, so to speak! +Where specific adhesions are involved the the , the structures that are, are most commonly associated with a , require a specific receptor for the adhesion reaction to take place and that if the potential host doesn't have specific receptor they're not susceptible to that particular strain of organisms. +Okay. +Let's move on to look at another fairly dramatic infection which is a case of diphtheria. +That, which is er a infection ca characterized by this profuse athema of th the base of the neck, referred to as bull neck if you look inside this child's er pharynx you see this very messy inflammatory process at the back and the whole of the respiratory mucosa is beginning to detach in what's referred to as a pseudo-membrane. +In, fatal cases this pseudo- membrane can extend right from the top of the respiratory track here down into bronchi, and you can get these enormous casts of mucrotic material er, starting in the pharynx and working their way right down in the bronchi. +It's been known for a very long time that from these cases you can isolate this organism C diphtheria bacterium which you saw in the practical classes and has this distinctive stayed property where er certain granules can be stayed up and also the arrangement of the cells is rather reminiscent of what called Chinese lettering. +The picture, the acute picture which you've just seen is virtually exclusively due to the production of a toxin and that toxin produces really a necrotic pharyngitis inflammation of the pharynx associated with necrosis and detachment of what we call the pseudo-membrane. +In very severe cases the toxin gets into the blood stream and their paralytic effects toxin i i is to some extent a neuro-toxin, and also there are effects of the heart. +So although for the majority of cases that a fatal as a result of diphtheria the fact that , due actually to the pharyngitis and the pseudo- membrane obstructing the respiratory passage. +In later stages, the minority of cases may go on to produce these results. +Well this is a disease due to another exotoxin which, in practical terms is of importance to you because it's the basis for a test for identifying the . +The toxin may or may not be present in strains of er C diphtheria and this is just an immunological test so I wo won't explain it in detail but what you can see is a a strip of er, filter paper which has been bathed in anti-toxin and growth of various different strains of the organism erm which, some of which do produce the toxin you can see lines of precipitation here and some of which don't produce the toxin. +And that test has to be applied to es each eyslate because this toxin is not part of the genome of Cherani bacteria diphtheria, it's actually a farged mediated toxin, it's actually encoded for by a bacteria farged. +So when +What's paresis then? +Paresis, paralysis. +Oh! +I thought you were doing neuro-sciences course? +The as I said this, this is required for identification for the organism, but the to the toxin has been recognised for a very, very long time and right from er, the early days the possibility of inactivating the biological properties of a toxin while retaining their immunological properties has been attractive to people seeking to prevent these diseases. +And, if you treat this toxin with something like formaldehyde or ethanol, you end up by inactivating it's toxic properties and you end up with what, what we call a toxoid, something that retains immunological properties, it's able to stimulate specific immunity to the toxin but it doesn't have any of the toxic effects and we end up with this toxoid vaccine against diphtheria. +And all of you, I would expect, have received the toxoid vaccine against diphtheria. +Curiously it has led effectively to the irradification of Cherani bacterium diphtheria from the circulating respiratory flora in this country and the reasons for that are are quite obscure! +Another im prominent toxoid vaccine which you should all have received and be regularly receiving boosters for is the tetanus vaccine, and really, a very similar situation pertains here, that the toxin is so important in the pathogenesis of disease, tetanus, that simply immunity to that one factor can lead to immunity er to the disease as a whole. +So, I've gone through a series of examples of exotoxins I want to just er, as far as is possible summarize the general properties of exotoxins. +First thing to be said about them is that they're all proteins covering a very wide range of molecular weights between three and three hundred kilobocals three thousand to three hundred thousand bocals. +And they have very specific impacts because they all result their effective result on an interaction with a specific receptor and er an activity I would express on that receptor or as a result of the er erm the uptake of the toxins. +Consequently,. +As I've indicated before you can divide them into patha and physiological effects and membrane damage more specifically than what I said before membrane damage is the i i is a particularly important thing. +Your patha and physiological toxins are often sub-unital structure and they make the most, the momegictiture most widely used is an A plus B sub-unit structure. +The B is a receptor and A is often, although by no means always, an enzyme and in the case the cholera toxin rotusis toxin and several other erm pseudo-membrane toxins and several others, diphtheria toxin they have the specific A viral I think they put the group onto a target molecule and disorder itself . +The membrane doesn't use toxins like the lytic toxins that staphylococcusorius expressed er they're often detected by their immunelytic properties, see the in the er, in the bacterial passage. +I'm sure you've experienced in many instances here, the effect of lytic toxins in er a boil or some some other unpleasant minor lesion! +Gonna go on now to talk about a severe condition which may start out that with a minor skin rash like this, this is called a petechial skin rash they later progress to rather more generalised rash and in it's most severe form it's mucrotic +effects on the skin and er, obviously a lethal outcome! +This type of picture is almost exclusively related to the isolation of grand negative organisms from the blood, these may be phacili or cocci, doesn't really make any er, any difference. +It's the grand nega negative cell wall structure that seems to matter. +And we now know that these ghastly effects are the results of what we referred to in the last lecture endotoxins. +You will hear in considerable detail in a later lecture about how septic shock and endotoxin work. +At this stage it's worth remarking that wa there are perhaps three prominent features of endotoxin effects first of all, they promote physcocine release and th the the two pro , prominent phsycocines affected are I O one, Interlooping one and TMF, tumourmacrosis factor which I hope you heard about in the immunology course. +I O one is the molecule most closely associated with the mi , the effects of lodose endotoxin and that is fever I O one er, when released into the blood sys bloodstream affects the hypothalamus and th i one of the principle reasons why infective conditions lead to fever. +In more severe situations there's uncontrolled continent acto activation and uncontrolled clotting factor, activation and it's really that last feature that's particularly responsible for the er er ghastly skin disease you saw i in the last sla , in the previous slide! +Now the eff the endotoxin as I've is almost exclusively associated with the grand negative cell wall. +And again in abbreviated form that, I just want to take you through the molecular basis for endotoxin action. +Here is the positive wall with it's large er expansive petroglycan grand negative with an inner and an outer membrane, and the petroglycan sandwiched in between. +Here we have a diagram of a grand negative organism with it's inner membrane and outer membrane illustrated here. +Very easy to reproduce endotoxic shock in in experimental animals and er, it was found fairly early on that the effects, er the endotoxic effects were almost exclusively associated with the outer membrane. +And detailed chemical strains of the outer membrane show that it has a slightly different structure from normal unit membranes. +Expand that up, you'll end up with a normal inner leaflet to the membrane, a phospholipids but the outer the , er the outer layer is almost exclusively composed of this stuff, lycropolysacrulite I mentioned this in an earlier lecture but we need to go into in a little bit more detail . +This lycropolysacrulite is can then be broken up into three different sections the internal membrane section is referred as lipid A. +Lipids in general are not very antigenic erm er it's interesting to note that lipid A, when it's purified from the other components is almost totally responsible for the toxic amount of any property. +The polysacurised component of composed of a four region to which the lipids are attached, and that outer region is er, it extends out into the environment . +Now, the importance here is that both of these polysacrulite components are based in general the outer region is highly variable, that's to say that very, er that most of organisms possess a unique outer region to that polysacrulite . +And by contrast, the poor region, certainly amongst the grand negative bacilli is very similar across a wide range of different species and this provides a very important opportunity to produce immunity to endotoxin directed against the core and this possibility has recently been exploited by a production of the molecule antibody directed against the core polysacride of the erm er er, of ecoli. +So, this has been shown to be effective in moderating the toxic events which occur in grand negative shock. +Building on this approach and something which I think you'll see certainly during the course of your your medical studies antibodies directed against tumourler proce , tumourler process factor are now being used to try and interrupt the chain of events at a slightly later stage. +So that's that's the endotoxin story. +I want now just to summarise and er some of these the features I'm going to point out I've I've already stated so you may may just want to sit back and just take this in. +If we compare endo and exotoxins endotoxins are only associated with grand negative organisms whereas exotoxins maybe produced by either grand negative or grand positive. +Endotoxins are exclusively cell associated in their production. +Exotoxins may also be cell associated, they've, they may not be a sa , they're not a structural component, but, particularly in grand negatives exotoxins er, are released first into the peraplasmic space, the space between the two membranes, and the the actual release into the medium er, may require cell . +So,tha they are both cell associated and cell free. +Endotoxin from different organisms although it may be of of different potency has essentially the same biological effects. +So, a wide variety of different organisms can produce endotoxic shock. +But exotoxins from different organisms produce really very different biological effects. +Even, even though they may be er,the they may work as a result of different o of the same enzyme activity in some cases the target for that enzyme activity and the receptors that have put it into the specific cells that are targeted lead to really very different biological effects. +In general terms endotoxins are a very low potency about point O one of a gram is lethal to one person some exotoxins are incredibly potent, and they're being the, the subject of er a certain amount of er weapons research. +The same goes for O one of a gram for example,toxin and it gives you a hundred thousand er as as I've indicated here, there's a, a wide range for the potency. +Endotoxins are heat stable, and this is very important when we try to produce materials that are safe for intravenous injection. +Whereas, for the most part exotoxins are destroyed by heat into a hundred degrees centigrade. +And finally treatment with er formaldehyde or ethanol has no effects on endotoxins but in a number of instances formaldehyde or ethanol will lead to er, the production of toxoid. +So, I think you should now have a very clear basis for discriminating between the two sorts of two sorts of toxin. +And we can move safely on to another another, and the final really, final topic about the patterns of pathogenesis. +Let's move on now, briefly, to consider this disease, tuberculosis. +This is a, a normal test x- ray the commonest manifestation of tuberculosis is the disease of des destructive regions in the upper poles of the lungs and pathologically the very nasty destructive lesions er, are appearing in in the area. +And in a mi , in a minority of cases you may get a sort of forminant region, this is er small scale, it's perhaps a centimetre apart, across a series of lung lesions containing these little necrotic due to the er the presence of tubercle cila. +Although this was this organism, microbacterium tuberculosis, named tuberculosis was discovered back in eighteen eighty we we really understand the pathogenesis of the disease very poorly! +What we know for sure is is really outlined here. +The organism is in i is inspired into the alveolar spaces and it's taken up by alveolar , the standard er abbreviation for macrophage and, the organism i in contrast to many others which we've sort of er die fairly rapidly after being taken up by these phagocytic cells, says Goodee! +That was exactly what I wanted to happen! +And it grows very rapidly, within macrophages and after er a period of time is actually disseminated into the circulation. +Now, this happens in nearly all er cases o of tuberculosis but, interesting, the vast majority of infections microbacterium tuberculosis are asymptomatic and the reason for that is that after a period of growth and dissemination does not lead to clinical symptoms, cell mediated immunity, C M I, comes into comes into play and you end up with a balance between the macrophages, and fi and M T B, where there's a constant turnover of macrophages dying, and M T B winning out. +Excuse me! +Hello! +Yep? +What's the M T B? +Microbacterium tuberculosis. +Okay. +Thank you. +You have a balance between the effects of macrophages which have been activated by cell mediator immunity and the lethal effects of microbacterium tuberculosis. +In individuals in whom some mediated immunity is not well developed the growth and defemination,de defemination phase may take over altogether. +If the C M I doesn't lead to this kind of balance then it can have this sort of effect and get rapidly fatal tuberculosis occurring at the time of the primary infection. +But it's believed that the majority of cases of tuberculosis, that we actually see, are so called post-primary tuberculosis where all of this process is taking place asymptomatically and the host is in this state of balance but something else comes along and stresses cell mediated immunity and the control breaks down so that th the organism M T B wins out very dramatically over the, over the macrophages and you end up with this post-primary pattern of tuberculosis. +An example of th , of the stress might be the administration of steroids or the occurrence of another disease, most notably, in this day and age of course, aids, would lead to T B coming out in this way. +Is this a type of miliary ? +Miliary er i it it refers, well you've heard of millet seed and it's it refers to a seeding of many different lesions er, around the body it means the disseminated form of of tuberculosis where the lesions occur all over the place. +Mm. +You'll hear, you'll hear these things repeated many times again, both in the pathology, and in the microbiology course. +So, that's er, really a very different pattern of infections where the virulence factors are not clearly identified. +Let me just finish off now by illustrating what leads to the outcome and how a a of a particular infectious condition and the combination of the factors that we think lead to these outcomes. +I think, the best analogy I can produce for you is that a a balance in which various factors act on the side of the host and various factors act on the side of the organism, and the outcome is disease and death if the organism wins out and outcome is resistance or recovery if the the host wins out. +And we could really, add in for each organism in different weights the significance of each of the factors on each side. +So, for example, if we took diphtheria we could say that the toxin was by far the most important and weighty factor, and that if we knock the toxin out then the disease can't occur. +And, similarly on the the host side, we could say that antibody was the most important feature. +In another example in tuberculosis we could say that the ability of the organism to persist inside macrophages was the most important feature and that effective cell mediated immunity was the most important feature on the host side. +So, I hope I've introduced to you the very different styles by which microbes produce disease and indicated the balance of factors involved. + +Shall we start from the beginning? +Yes +Right, mm, completely fresh start? +Yes please. +I was born in Wapping in the year nineteen hundred and six, my father was a docker, one of my earliest recollections is of the dock strike of nineteen hundred and eleven, in which I played a part lining up at the soup kitchens to get soup for the family. +My father died when I was quite young and at ten years of age I went into a poor old orphanage where I stayed four years. +I came out of the orphanage to go and live with my mother and I found myself one of the family of six living in one room, the house was a four roomed house plus a scullery. +Each room was occupied by a separate family, there was one cold water tap for the whole of the four families and one outside toilet. +Conditions such as those were quite common to many thousands of people and I think it was those conditions which helped to formulate and develop my political thinking. +When I was eighteen I came in contact with the Catholic Crusade which was a rather left wing Christian Socialist Organization and I found that their attitude to problems contained the answers for which I had been searching for a good many years tell me when you want me to raise something. +Yeah, I'd like you to tell me about erm, what the house was that you left before you came to Harlow and why you came to Harlow? +Yes,if we skip all the intermediate years with, after the war I came back from the army to find we'd been bombed out and were living in requisition accommodation, after a time, the, we were moved into a new flat over some shops. +My wife was working for Cossors the electronic company and they moved to Harlow and er, it, in order for her to retain her job, we had to move to Harlow as well. +This proved very difficult because, between the time of the decision being taken to move Cossors to Harlow and the time that my wife, my wife's department actually went, the Development Corporation had changed their policy and would not have married women as tenants. +This resulted in a great deal of correspondence between myself and the Development Corporation and at the end of it I told my wife the best thing to do was to hand her notice in as there was no chance of us ever getting a house in Harlow, fortunately her services were much more seriously in demand then we imagined and the company nominated us for one, a house which is allocated to one of their executives, the house that we're living in now and have lived in ever since nineteen sixty three. +The vast difference between Stroud Green Road, Islington and Harlow. +For one thing Harlow is the sort of town which I'd been agitating for both before and after the war whenever I was speaking on behalf of the Labour Party both at street corners and at public meetings on the type of life we vis envisaged for a normal person in the land. +To leave Islington, to leave Stroud Green Road, to leave a flat which was over a shop overlooking a main shopping centre, overlooking a completely noisy main through road to come to Harlow was a difference between chalk and cheese. +The accommodation differed in, in one respect and that, that was that in the flat we were on one floor, we had one bedroom, we moved into a house with two toilets separate bathroom and three bedrooms, which enabled us to spread our furniture around, enabled us to have visitors to receive members of the family. +I think this is one of the essentials in Harlow and something that people should not forget, that is that, although there is a great deal of criticism possibly of the standard of building that went on over the years of the Development Corporation, compared with what most people came from, there was a very great elevation both in quality and in ideas. +Perhaps today the general public take too much for granted, the, as a local Councillor I have to interview many people who come to me with housing problems, to be as patient as one can is essential as a politician, but after the complainant has gone, one is very conscious of the fact that their problem is so minute it is hardly worth mentioning. +But nevertheless that's human nature and perhaps it's also a reason why life should not stand still, whatever progress we make both in housing and in quality of housing and the quality of life, once people are used to that, to that they expect more and this is what progress, what forward thinking is all about. +Could you tell me about the house, of which you were bombed out? +Was it, were you married at the time? +Yes I think that over the course of our married life we had a number of moves for various reasons, generally to improve the accommodation, erm as standard of life increased so the desire to have a better house to live in or rather in those days a house was out of the question, we generally had rooms in a house, erm, they, the flat for instance that we were bombed out from was a basement flat, erm according to the estate agents it was a garden flat, erm and it meant that you had access to the front garden and the back garden, but as for being a garden flat it was below the level of the garden in the front and at the back it was on the level with the erm green grass at the back of the house, it was also along side of the trolley bus depot, so there it was considerably noisy, nevertheless it was a self contained flat, the first one we'd had, no the second one we'd had and we were perfectly happy there although of course it did have minor difficulties, the fact that you used the front door with people who had flats on the other remaining three floors, but nevertheless it did involve you in a certain amount of community living, you were aware of your neighbours, you had to be very conscious of them and they were very conscious of you. +That I think perhaps is one of the striking differences between that and living in a house in Harlow, where you may or may not know your immediate neighbours. +Perhaps you know them over the garden wall to speak to you, you might even know their children by name and you know their christian name, but beyond that I think it's true to say, even making allowance of generation gaps that you don't know your neighbours in the same way that you knew your neighbours in London. +Whereabouts was the basement flat, was it in Islington +No , that was in Islington but it was in the district called Holloway +Oh yes I know it well +Mm +Penventon Gardens +Penventon Gardens, is the hou oh of course it's not there +It's not there, mm, yeah +if it was bombed out yes +You were in the army weren't you? +Oh I was yes, I was +Army +I was enjoying life in the army while my wife was enjoying the bombing. +She was actually in the house when the bomb dropped on the other side of the road and she was flung down two flights of stairs and the piano on the other side of the room here bears the scars of the bombing. +And that curtain went from the window right across the room and pinned itself into the piano, pinned the curtains into the piano. +And it also managed to chip some of the woodwork, curious to think that I was offered as war damage compensation five pounds to re-case the piano, you couldn't of had it repolished for five pounds, but thinking was working class people shouldn't have pianos, I'm certain that was at the back of, of the gentleman whose job it was to evaluate war damage, he certainly raised his eyebrows every time we told him, what either a piece of furniture or crockery or cutlery which had been destroyed had cost and he was so foolish after er the house had been almost flattened as de demand bills as proof of evidence that your figures were correct +Mm, so when you left your, when you came back you said that you went into a requisition property +Yes, erm, we found ourselves in, rather to go back. +After the bombing my wife was housed with an with another family +Who had been bombed +in the top flat, they, they were rehoused in a flat in a block of mansion flats and when I came out of the army this was the accommodation I found available, er for me and I objected strongly and after a great deal of fuss erm the Islington Borough Council's Housing Department found us rooms on the first floor in a Victoria Victorian villa in Penventon Gardens, which erm, were comfortable +Not Penventon Gardens +Er not erm +was that +Sunnyside Road +Sunnyside Road +Sunnyside Road +Sunnyside Road, and erm, it were it was good accommodation we had our own bathroom and toilet er but again accommodation was cramped, we had no spare room +And we weren't proud, there was people came +and er the people in the flat above us had to pass our door to get to them in the same way that we had to pass the people, tenants below doors to get to their accommodation. +Erm from there we went into this purpose built flat above a grocers shop, it was meant for the manager of the grocers shop, but he had better sense and so the flat became available for letting to the Borough Council who at the insistence of the owners of the house we were in, erm, were anxious to get their property back and so we found ourselves in a brand new flat, the first tenants, although this was not very highly to be recommended, you approached your flat up er stone staircase, er from the outside so you exposed to the elements er you then walked across the roof, flat roof over the shops until you came to your flat door, erm, Islington at that time was just beginning the, to see the influx of immigrants from the colonies as they were in those days and er, they in turn created much heavier demand on what little vacant property there was, so that the district rapidly deteriorated and for many people who were not in the fortunate position that we were found it necessary or desirable to leave because they were sharing rooms or sharing houses with people whose ways of life were different from theirs and this is something I think that housing authorities learnt to appreciate over the years that the differences between people's ways of life are one of the major causes of social distress. +What year was that when you moved into erm Sunnyside Road? +We moved into Sunnyside Road in nineteen forty five and we moved into erm Stroud Green Road +Fifty three +somewhere about nineteen fifty three, yes +in our town house +and we left Sunnyside Road in sixty three to come to Harlow. +So you've only been in Harlow since nineteen sixty three? +Twenty years yes +Yes +it'll be twenty years next March +Mhm. +Could you explain to me a little bit more when you said that erm a married woman couldn't be a tenant. +Yes, erm, when Harlow was designed, it was appreciated that its, the, its purpose was to house workers in the factories and the offices and also to act as an overspill from London, and in nineteen sixty when Cossors were bringing their workers by the hundreds +Fifty eight +Fifty eight was it? +When, in nineteen fifty eight when Co Cossors were bringing, started bringing their workers here the Development Corporation were very anxious to let houses and, so that it, it didn't matter whether the worker was male or female, he or she was accepted as a tenant, by the time we came to move in Harlow in nineteen sixty three the Development Corporation reneged on its promise to house my wife. +At that time erm, I was a commercial traveller and Harlow was part of my district and they reluctantly accepted the fact that because I was a commercial traveller working in Harlow that I actually did work in Harlow which was stretching a point, but I really think that the Development Corporation's officials were getting a little tired of my being able to talk their own language and to write letters in the same vein as they could write, they weren't used to this, and, at any rate, as I said earlier we got here. +We were offered some awful things though, in the first place +Erm, I've always been interested in housing and it did appear to me that however delightful Harlow may be, when the architects were designing properties, they designed a property without any consideration for the people who were to live in them. +We were offered a flat, which would of mea if we'd of accepted it would of meant we would have to of sold every stick of furniture because the rooms were not large enough +Can you tell me the name of the block of flats or the address of it? +That was er a flat in Plumtree, we were offered a flat on the first floor and when we examined the kitchen it was extremely obvious to me that our gas cooker wouldn't fit in the, the place where it was designed to fit, when I asked where do we put the washing machine I was informed that most tenants kept the washing machine on the balcony, when I said well where do we put the refrigerator, well most people keep the refrigerator either in the hall or, or rather not a hall it was a passageway, in the passageway or in the living room, now it does seem to me with hindsight that if that's planning I, to use an old fashion London phrase, I'm a Dutchman. +Was the living room a com a com combined sitting and dining room? +Combined everything except bedroom, there was one separate bedroom +Only one bedroom? +Yes erm, it was very obvious from the word go that they didn't want us. +It was for a single person really wasn't it there? +Well I would of thought so, although today it must be admitted that single people, don't get offered one bedroom flats, but then in those days there wasn't the shortage of accommodation that there is today +Next question +Erm, could you tell me erm something about how you felt about the change of coming to this house, you know whether you enjoyed it? +Well I suppose at the, one of the best things, best examples of the difference was that my wife when she saw this house, knew that it was a house in which she could be happy, in which her tastes and, could spread themselves, erm rather than her tastes having to be curtailed by lack of space and lack of accommodation, erm, the fact that I had a garage which was essential er next to my house instead of some er quarter or twenty minutes' walk away from where I lived as happened in London also made a terrific difference to comfort, erm the fact that there was a garden instead of a few windowboxes and a couple of tubs, all these things I think made one appreciate the fact that you'd come, not only into a new town, but into a new way of life probably the fact that we had a staircase inside the house, which was the first time that we'd had a staircase between our bedrooms and our living rooms +Mm +so in all purp in, in always, the fact that you'd come into this house made one realize that there'd been a distinct change in one's circumstances. +And did you feel that it affected your lifestyle? +That you could do, you mention that you could now entertain +Erm +your friends +well we always had entertained friends but we'd never been in a position to put them up so that erm most of our friendly visits were from people who didn't live very far from us, it meant that families, nieces, nephews etcetera were difficult to accommodate because they had to sleep on a couch or a settee in the living room with all its diff difficulties, especially when it meant in the morning for breakfast you had to get them up and dressed before you could start thinking about breakfast, and I think that those sort of things are things that er people ought to take into consideration when thinking about new housing. +One of the beefs I have about accommodation for elderly people is the fact that by, that the purpose built, very excellent, bungalows and flats for elderly citizens are restricted to one bedroom which, to which but is by government decree to keep the cost down, but it does seem to me to be very heartless because elderly people's children are unable to come and stay with them except to the great deal of discomfort and perhaps as society grows a little more considerate for the fact that the percentage of elderly people will get even greater as the years go on, then they should make allowance and provide them for the facilities to enable them to be visited by their children and grandchildren. +Did you erm leave family behind when you came away from London? +No we never had a family so we were entirely foot free and foot loose. +But apart from children I meant sisters or brothers +Oh yes +or parents or +yes, erm my wife came from the Midlands, from Coventry and her family roots were in Coventry at the Midlands, in fact there she still has numerous nieces and nephews and great nephews and great nieces there to this day, my with the exception of a sister who moved, who, to Basildon, erm I have two brothers and er they still live in London, still live in East Ham, er the distance is not too great erm and, but obviously as we get older the amount of visiting we do will be constricted by the difficulties of getting from Harlow to East Ham especially when one is compelled to stop driving a motor car +Did you bring furniture with you when like when you moved into Harlow? +Oh yes, yes, we, the we had an extremely large rooms, I don't know went, what, what, what went wrong the architect but we had two enormous rooms which could of been quite easily divided into three, but we could of had two bedrooms instead of one and the conse +Er, sorry to interrupt you are you speaking about this house? +No, the flat +The flat, right +the flat in, in London, the flat we came from and so we had accumulated a little more furniture than one would usually have in two rooms and the kitchen and we got here and were allowed to spread ourselves, if there's one criticism that one could say about this house, is that the size of the rooms confines you to what you put in them, they're square, that the, the division between the living room and the dining room is through a pair of glass doors, where perhaps that could of been arranged with either sliding doors or some other feature so as not to separate it yet again into two square boxes and erm +Are you in favour of open plan? +er, it depends on one's own tastes, I personally don't like the open planned that I've seen in very modern houses where, erm I, I don't quite know how to express it but it does seem to me odd to be on one floor level and then two feet up you're on another level and er, that's one aspect of the open plan that doesn't appeal to me and I don't quite understand why it's necessary to have everything that's going on in one room with pieces of furniture designed to act as barriers between the different functions or purposes for which you give parts of the room. +So how do you how do you see the ideal way of arranging a room? +The ideal way, way of arranging a room as I see it would be that you could have your separate rooms but have sliding doors, after all there's nothing new in sliding doors, er, but doors opening and closing erm are restrictive, that's only my own personal view, my wife doesn't necessarily, necessarily share that view ideally if I was planning a house, the main room the main living room would be much larger than the one we live in, it would certainly be a different shape, erm when we had our golden wedding erm our visitors were so numerous that they were standing shoulder to shoulder in these two rooms and the kitchen whereas if it had been a reasonably designed house maybe we could of spread them around a little more, but they're minor, minor defects that are not really serious. +I think today that if someone was designing a house one would incorporate all the modern additions which have suddenly become fashionable such as double porches, doubleglazing and er patio windows, I think that these things are perhaps a development from, in the same way as this house is a development from the rooms and the flats we lived in in London so that the modern conceptions of the things I've mentioned could be incorporated as normal in the house certainly would be cheaper to incorporate them when building the house than adding them on. +When was this house built? +Well I don't know the exact date but I believe this house is some thirty years old, so it was built about nineteen fifty three, fifty two, fifty three +Does it have central heating? +Does it have central heating? +No it has central heating now, but it didn't when we moved in. +Did you own the house? +No +Erm, did the Council put the central heating in? +Council put the central heating in when we got advanced in years and when it became necessary in the doctor's opinion for me to have central heating because I had a heart complaint. +So it's, the, the Council doesn't install central heating as a matter of course only if it's a special case? +The Council has a policy now of bringing all its properties up to date, but priority because they're, bringing the houses up to date will take some eight years, priority is given to elderly citizens and people with medical needs. +Do you like the orientation of the house? +Do you feel that it's pointing the right way, bringing the sun in through the right windows at the right time of day? +That's a little difficult to answer, if you're watching television, the sun can be a nuisance +Yes of course +when it comes in, pours in those, the house faces west er consequently although it's very pleasant in the afternoon and evenings when you're not watching television erm, it has its drawbacks on the other hand the garden is most unfortunately orientated alright? +I think that's a minor problem but perhaps architects now pay a little more attention to and that is that, in the afternoon when you like to sit in the evening when you like to sit in the garden in the sunshine you are sitting in the shadow because the house er is between the sun and the garden +I can't think of any more questions for the moment +Alright +So do you think I could ask you something about what you please tell +No we're alright +please tell me when you want me to go because +Yeah +if I over st don't let me over stay +No, no, no, no. +Er I liked to ask you erm about if you, if you think that Harlow lives up to the ideal of the New Town? +It could be asked what is disappointing about Harlow, and I suppose that the first thing that strikes one is the design fault so far is the road work, the road network is concerned and er, and the inadequacy of the road, for roads for modern traffic. +Very obviously when this town was designed and laid out and nobody foresaw the growth of the private motor car, er today private motor car is accepted, but in a town which was built perhaps the idea that one in twenty would own a motor car and we're now faced with the probably one in three have a motor car, we're now faced with a problem which can only detract from life in the town, also the fact that huge lorries are passing through what were envisaged as quiet residential neighbourhoods with a consequent breaking of curbs and of paving stones where the lorries are compelled to mount the pavings in order to get round parked cars and things of that nature it detracts from the life in Harlow I do, I think a considerable extent, erm, the other factor is that there's become a lack of pride in the town by the people who live in it, this is seen from the amount of rubbish, and refuse that is dropped from the minor vandalism that goes on the graffiti, er particularly in underpasses where people are walking to the town centre and that, those are the things where the town has lost its way, when we first came here you never saw bits of paper and packages from sweets and cigarettes and things, perhaps maybe because the package industry has developed over the years and that er whereas whenever we had responsibility for taking a small child out, if it had sweets it was encouraged to put the wrappings in its pocket until it got home, now of course it's encouraged to drop it just where it wants to and er this not only applies to children, some of the worst culprits are the adults who leave the, leave the public houses with a can of beer to drink on the way home and drop it just when they've finished the last drop of beer or the fish and chip paper's just dropped. +I think this is detracting, I think it's inconsiderate, it certainly shows a lack of respect for one's neighbours or indeed for the town one lives in and yet very often I'm fully aware of the fact that the people who do the dropping are the first to complain that the Council doesn't keep the town clean. +What, do you think that there's any connection between what you mentioned before about when you claimed for er bomb damage erm that working class people about being, supposed to have a piano, do you think there's a connection between that sort of idea and the idea of people that lived in Harlow in Council houses shouldn't have cars? +No, I don't think that had a great deal to do with it, erm it was question that when the town was designed the, there hadn't been this sudden burst in living standards. +If you compare when we first came to Harlow, which is only twenty years ago, the possession of a television set, erm was only just becoming the normal thing +Mm +the possession of the motor car was just becoming the norm, but the town had been designed fifteen years earlier +And what do you think of the idea of ways that the, that the way the house types were graded, the fact that some of them were in fact meant to be executive or managerial classes and others were meant to be for people with less income, do you think that this is again recreating this sort of class system within the planning of the town? +I think that what we've got is the acceptance by the designers and the planners of the class system that they knew +Mm +they had no vision of a classless society, erm, personally while I've no desire to see uniformity, I see no earthly reason why some people because they have a lower income should be compelled to live in inferior and perhaps crowded conditions, whereas the man with five or six or seven times their income can choose a larger house in a much more delightful district and I think it is things like that that make the difference between what I as a young socialist agitator was advocating and what we find today. +I find too that circumstances compel a socialist Council like Harlow to be constrained and constricted when building, there are too many laws and regulations which are based on the fact that, for instance, today's government thinks that people who rent houses are second class citizens. +Can you give an example when you say that the law is designed? +Yes, erm, let us take one little factor, this question of the agitating the media and the, today, and that is the reduction in interest charges. +Now when interest charges fall, the person who is buying the house benefits from the reduction in interest charges, but the person who is renting a house in local authority and then in this case nobody, nobody else in Harlow to rent it from, is faced with, not with a decreased monthly rental, but with an ever increasing one because as more and more Council houses are sold the cost of maintaining that there, the superstructure of the town, the cost of maintaining Council houses goes on increasing and so the burden is laid on the tenants and the tenant can find, will find himself that pound for pound increasing his rent while the house owner is decreasing his mortgage charges and at the end of the day the tenant is paying increased rent, increased rate and with nothing to show for it, erm, I've always been in favour of a sale, of, of property er owner occupiers, but not at the expense of the people who cannot afford to be owner occupiers, ah, to my mind, the present housing system is designed to maintain the existing class structure because even with the large discounts that one gets and nobody's ever yet convinced me that why you should get a discount because you buy a Council house, but if you buy one privately owned you can't get a discount and it, there's, this, this is so utter nonsense, but it is throwing a much heavier burden every time a house is sold on the remaining houses which are for rent, and so you that, although the idea is to make it a classless this society with more and more people owning their own properties the mo the mere fact that the majority of people in the town cannot afford to buy even the reduced priced Council house, is an example that the, the system, the class system a division by income still exists. +Yeah may I ask Mrs some more questions? +Would you mind answering some questions? +Well she's a bit shy, but I'll help her. +I wanted to ask you about the furniture. +Can you hold it, if you just hold it about, like that, yes. +Erm, do you mind answering some questions about your furniture? +Oh, well, what do you want to know? +Erm, you seem to like modern furniture +Yes, yes +Why did you choose modern furniture? +Well + +Come in, come in, come in Jon. +Morning. +Good morning. +Is it? +Oh aye. +I was laying a heavy carpet yesterday, and my +Oh right. +my chest's full of st +It's er +gunge. +. +Was it a s this time of the month already? +Aye.. +Good? +I dunno er are you taking blood cos I've Doctor to see this afternoon. +Er it's immaterial to me I mean I'm, I'm, I'm totally unprejudiced. +I mean if maybe it'd be better if he does it Jon because he +Oh I was +Aye. +I was thinki no I'm no being facetious. +No no no no no no no +It's just +I'm just thinking. +He'll, cos he'll see the results then, +Aye. +and there's less chance of them getting lost because if we send it over to Monkland and it comes back here, it goes to Doctor , you know how he's all over the place, +and he's doing it all day, seeing +clinic. +as he's got Strathclyde, and he's got er +Aye. +Stonehouse as well. +May be better if he does it this afternoon pal +Well that's +for, you know for, for the sake of getting the, the, the stuff all in the right place at the right +Aye +time. +Aye aye. +But urine test, absolutely fine, no problem there at all young Jon. +That's smashing. +Got a wee bit of reaction to the Sulfasalazine and the penicillin, mind. +Oh right, aye. +Er normally thirst. +Right. +I'm drinking water and and tea +That's okay. +That's alright. +Anything. +Coffee. +Anything at all. +But that's about the most I had. +I started off at the s at the start I was er I was getting mouth ulcers, and then well I didn't get them to the severity that I got them with the sulfasalazine +That's +Er +funny, cos sulfasala I've been s I've certainly been using it for years and years and years with different folk fo er for something completely different. +Aha. +I mean it didn't come for, come out for arthritis. +Arthritis , no. +It came out for something else. +And I've used it oh, for about thirty odd years. +I never found anybody with any trouble ever having any trouble with it. +And yet when folk got it for their arthritis, okay? +Yeah +There's no trouble with er with the Sulfasalazine +Aye. +So there should be no problem. +Yeah, that's right. +Renal problems and er I was having bowel problems ulcers in my mouth. +Mhm. +That's right. +And I was quite amazed. +Eh? +Oh aye. +I was quite amazed. +But er if you . +said you know? +Aye. +But er I was away for a week there, I only came back on Saturday. +Good, good +Er +did you get to? +I was away up er Nunkton Kildray it's between Invergordon and Paine +It's not my part of the world at all, +It's beautiful +don't know it , I don't know it , is it? +Oh. +Oh, right. +Right aye. +Oh +So my w Jessie and I had a wee break. +Peace and quiet? +Aye,we we've been having a lot of trouble with the people next door, and er +Mhm. +it, it's really quite amazing. +Oh . +I can believe it. +Erm trouble with neighbours is +Well it's +not unusual in . +I hardly think that I'm able to run about banging doors at four o'clock in the morning. +It's I'm up a +I haven't seen you too often . +I'm up against the six footer, and a five foot ten wife +Aha. +er and you know. +having a that's what it's . +That's right, that's right. +Thanks . +Okay. +, Jon. +Right. +Bye. + +We need you in a semicircle and the best way to do that is to push your chairs roughly around that grey line +There's a nice swivelly one +Erm you pass those round in either direction, from now on it's, it's bandage time. +Denise is going to do bandaging and I'm going to do bandaging and so are you, so you have these packs and these packs, if you'd like to take one pack each, I don't know if there's a pin in them, you might find a pin in there +please look after them and bring them back each day, you'll find a bandage and a roll of bandage in there and so their your own properties +In your text book you've got quite a lot of information in there about reinforcing, what we're going to do in the practical session and it's always a help I think when you have a lot of the, thrown at you to know that you can just put it up and there it is if you get a bit confusing or can't remember what's what, so on page one six nine it starts telling you all about nursing and bandages and general hygiene which we've already talked quite a lot about but it's very useful for you to know, you can go there and look, and if you just go through the pages from there on one seventy, one seven one, one seven two, one seven three and then on one seven four it's got the general rules for applying bandages apply bandages when the casualty is sitting or lying down, you always sit your casualty down and you work from the front of, I say why do you work from the front of the thing? +So you can keep +So you can see how they're looking, see if they're going pale a bit or if they're going to fall off their chair and talk and reassure them. +That's right, erm always make sure that the injured parts are well supported bandages should be firm enough to do the job and large enough to cover the wound all of this is the sort of thing which you need to be referring back to if you're in any doubt. +On page one seven five you've got how to check the circulation, after you've put the bandage on to make sure it's not too tight, it's not stopping all the blood supply, press a fingernail if there's only a finger nail and the, it should go white of course if you press it, then the blood should go back and it goes back pink again or an area of er skin, always check your circulation after you've put your bandage on. +Now when you've actually opened your pack you'll find, what you got your triangular bandage here. +Now I'm going to show you now how you going to put it away again, fold it, afterwards, opening it up +alright, everyone open their bandage up? +Now when it's opened it's useful as a sling, two sorts of slings we're going to do, high sling and the low sling but also if you fold it, it's very useful as a bandage too, if you put it across your knee, then you bring the point up towards you like that and then again, fold it the base up to the top again . +and again face up to the top and there you've got a bandage, okay? +One stage before that you've got a very broad bandage which is helpful for supporting things, we'll learn about how to use that later. +When you've got it to the final fold there you've got your ordinary +fold bandage and if you want, pack it away like that, you bring the end in the centre, there, so and again the ends in to the centre, just so that they meet like this, like this the centre, just so that they meet there, again, start like this, ends just to meet in the centre don't overlap them too much and again bend into the centre and you've got a nice little pad, if you ever need a pad for plonking on a wound quickly, there you've got a pad, or putting against an ear or anything you want it for and you open it up quickly and you've got a bandage, two of those and you've got a +but it's a very handy way to keep. +When you've got your bandage in your pack, I've explained to you before, you open it up in the first aid kit it's sterile, yeah, you open it up by the +one hand goes one way, one hand goes the other, break it open, put the cardboard away and you need to be ready to try before you pull the next bit off don't you because as soon as you've opened that it's not sterilized any more, so you open that up and you find, unwrap it +unwrap it as I showed you before with the first aid kit, +comes out first and then you see how the padding because this wadding is stitched onto the back, and the front is the bit you put against the wound and you put it straight against the would without +or touching it and that pad should be big enough to cover the wound, so you should something, overlaps, alright, and then if you find, if you unwrap the roll a little bit further, you don't want to unroll it completely, your see that if while you're using it in practice you need to roll it up again backwards towards the back of the bandage like so, we'll roll it up again, backwards and when you get to the bandage you just fold the bandage up around the long end and wind the short end round it firmly and there it's ready for use again in practice, you wouldn't of course do that for real would you? +Put away, use another one. +So that's how you look after your bandages and all these things that we're going to show you you'll find in those little sections in your first aid book so if you get confused or why you've only got to look up in the book. +Let's do the sling first. +I thought we'd do the sling first, high sling because it's very important to get it high and not pull it, everyone, anyone gets asked to do the high sling in their exam and if you can put a good high sling on you're halfway to passing +Mm +and from that it can't be bad can it? +So I'll be the casualty and at the moment we won't worry about all the various things you use a high sling for, we just want to make sure that you can actually do it, okay? +Can you just come back a little further and then they'll be able to see, better if all round the side +Okay? +Right, now then, be like this I'll pretend that I've done something that needs to be, a high sling to support me in this fashion. +And I, I'm going to be working from behind Denise because you all need to see, but you would be working from the front as I've already talked about, so you need your triangular bandage, alright, and there's your long edge, and there's your point as we call it, a sort of elbow shaped, think of that as elbow shaped because it always goes towards the injured elbow. +Now, that when you arrange your sling in the first place, it's crucial to the success and ease of which you finalize the bit round the elbow. +You arrange it so that this long side is vertically up and down the body, right, in that direction. +Don't let it come across like that, the temptation is to think that you've got to have all this bit up here, now you don't want this up here because it's very difficult to cope with once you've tied it round to get it round the elbow, you want the least amount that you can get, just cover the arm and then it makes it much easier to deal with at the end. +The amount at the top that you need is just enough to tie a reef knot oh I've forgot to show you a reef knot didn't I? +Tie a reef knot. +We all use a reef knot in erm first aid and again it is in the book a very good illustration in the book +reef knot and then nobody knows how to do it, I will show you in a bit, but that's enough to do a knot, the knot comes on just above the fingers, in the hollow of the neck, okay? +So that's how you arrange it like that, the first thing you then do is to tuck the spare bit under the hand, cos the hand then there anchors it for you +Okay? +and the hand doesn't sneak out afterwards and starts popping out and then it's useless, then the rest of all this stuff you just get it out of the way under the arm, it's all gone, right, this bit comes up between the two shoulder blades, don't make the mistake of bringing it across there, a lot of people do that, that won't do, you have to come round the back and between these two shoulder blades to get maximum support, you've got to hold this elbow up and then you tie it near the hand, now I recommend that you tie it and talk to your casualty, half tie it and say is that supporting you enough? +It feels okay thanks, yeah +Cos then you can draw it up a little tighter if it's too loose, if it's like that and, most people do it too loose, is that tight enough? +No it isn't. +Right I'll just draw it up a little bit tighter, is that tighter for you? +Better, better +And now I'll do the other half of my reef knot, right, and tuck the ends in immediately, they don't like seeing ends because they're considered dangerous in first aid so don't forget to do it, do the knot, tuck it in all in one movement and then it's done, okay, how does that feel? +That's fine +Of course you're reassuring all the time as you do this +Mm, mm +Got a bit that's fall down +Hello we haven't finished yet, haven't finished. +Now you're gonna want a pin, these are rather small pins, I recommend that peop people who have got large hands try and fit their first aid kit out with large pins, they're much easier to handle, but firstly they do not put pins in their mouths for obvious reasons, either, either have it on the table open ready or just pop it in the front of shirt while you do this bit, okay? +So you're going to fold this around the elbow to give support to the arm and in this one you're gonna fold first of all forward and then back, can you see that little neat envelope? +A neat little envelope that's supporting quite firm, that's supporting the elbow, now pin it, again, now you can see how important it is not to have lots and lots of bandage up here, cos what will you do with it then? +It's too much, if you ever have too much you can just fold a bit down, if you have a big bandage you can fold either of those edges down first if you've got too much and then you fold it forward and back, now your pin sticks in, but all the material and out of all the material and it goes in a straight upward direction, again it must go in that direction so that if per chance it comes undone it falls out and drops on the floor, whereas if it was sideways or downwards it would open and stick in your casualty, so that's why we have it done that way. +Would you like to see that again or do you think you could manage it now? +See it again +See it again, right, I'll just do it this time without talking it through, and you can just watch +Yeah +and I tell you what we shall do we shall change arms +We'll change arms as well +you'll need to practise on both arms. +And there's no use getting in the exam on Thursday and say ah well I'm afraid I've not done it on that arm so erm lost +Okay, so there you are you see, you're, you're a first aider and you come up to the person and you hold it the way you did last time and you think ah, now that's the wrong way round of course, there's my elbow point, there's my injured elbow, so I have to be that way round, mm, so you turn it round the other way, right, your elbow shape goes to the injured elbow and your long line goes straight up and down the line of the body, you arrange it so that you only just covering the forearm there, with just enough above the hand to tie your reef knot that would be too little and that would be too much just enough above the hands to tie your reef knot, the first thing you do is to tuck nice, big bit of material right under the hand and anchor it into position, just keep that resting there and all the rest of this goes under the arm up between the shoulder blades there and you tie your first half of the reef knot just above the fingers in the hollow of the neck here, now that's important because round the back here if you press on that bit of muscle there, there's a big band of muscle, if you've got a knot on that it gives a great deal of discomfort very quickly so you want to get the knots round in the hollow here that doesn't hurt your casualty, there, draw it up half the knot, is that tight enough? +It feels fine +Yeah +that feels fine +and then do your other half of knot, reef knot and tuck it in straight away, you get your pin ready, have it on, either on the table or ready like that, now if you've got too much material ever you just fold that down, there, if that's too much, which isn't too much with Denise because it's the right size sling, sometimes you have to improvise and then you fold if forward and back, firmly, take the pin and put it, put your two fingers down between the casualty so that your fingers are apart and there's a space between your fingers so you can stick the pin in and out again without any danger, if you put the fingers apart like that, if you do stick the pin in yourself and draw blood would you please throw the pin away, as a matter of automatic hygiene, it mustn't be used again once it's been stuck into somebody +Or in your casualty +or in your casualty, it must be thrown away +Do it up, discard it +Alright +get another one from the box +would you please make sure that all through these practices that you deal with different people all the time cos in the exam and for real afterwards you'll have to bandage all different shape people and if you just get, work in pairs you don't get that sort of practice, by all means start of with somebody next door to you but each time you do one go across the room and find somebody you haven't done before. +And if the gentleman having to put bandages on a lady and you want to put your hand underneath there just excuse me a moment, alright, because in the exam one row of you will certainly going to have a lady bandage okay, put slings on and to bandage so it's just as well not to get to you know used to bandaging up great big chaps and then you'll find you've got some little tiny five foot two or five foot nothing lady bandaging in exam, alright, so swap around, so get yourselves so you've got a partner and use your bandages and let's just see you do the high sling to start. +All got safety pins by the way? +Yeah they had them in the little packs, okay? +Right +How many people know how to do a reef knot for sure? +No +Right, so I'm not wasting my time +a reef knot then? +If, if you look in your books page one seven seven, you'll see a beautifully illustrated instruction on how to do it, which you can refer to yourself this evening or later on in the course if you forget but I'm now gonna show you how to do one as well, you, if you want to know it's there for you to look up you take the bandage and fold it into your narrow fold band and put it round your leg, you've got something to tie a reef knot round, okay?if you know how to do a reef knot already fine, just do it, if you don't, follow instructions. +Narrow fold bandage you've done it correctly then. +The +doing it the same way each time and a reef knot is the opposite way each time, alright, undo it, once again, just once again to make sure you know are you ready? +Once again, now it doesn't matter which way round you start, you can start left over right or right over left, but the second time you do it opposite to the first time, so the first time I put the left one over first and the right one over that and then tuck it through, just like tying a shoe lace really, okay? +And the next, pick the ends up, I put the right one down first and the left one across it and then put that one through and then that's a reef knot no that's a granny over there anyone not sure? +That, that's the one you have to remember which one you put on which, that was the left on top of the right, now the right on top of the left yes, come on +which one did you do first? +That's the right on top of the left okay, right on top of the left, now you've crossed over again left on top of the right, put that through there okay yeah +All okay I think +mm, yes all okay now, right. +I bang my head, I cut my scalp, yeah, everybody, I bang my head, I cut my scalp, not massive bleeding none of the bandages we're doing this morning are to do with massive bleeding, they're all to do with what we call minor wounds, right so small cut, but it needs attention, okay, so I cut my scalp +Cor +okay so I've got my pad +it's a bit tender +alright, so I'm going to ask my casualty to hold my nice clean sterile pad that I've got folded ready over the wound, there, gently, okay? +Yep +Then I'm going to take another triangular bandage and I'm going to open it up and make just a little fold, this is going to go on her forehead and that little fold just helps with keeping it firm and stopping the bandage slip, now, just put it around the forehead like that, okay? +Cross it over, round the back, and back up to the front again, do a reef knot here and tuck your ends in straight away of course like so and then this little bit can just be tucked up where you've crossed the two ends and make it look neater with no ends hanging out, no that, all that does is keep the dressing secure, keep infection out, okay? +The difficult part about this one is that people all have odd shaped heads, now and you find that if you put them on too high they squidge off like that, and you've got to think of bandaging an egg basically, if you had an egg with a little hole in one end and you've got to put a bandage round you'd have to put it very carefully round the widest bit wouldn't you for it to stay firm and that's the secret, everyone's heads different and as you put it round you've got to see where you can get it, where, sometimes it's over the ears, sometimes it's above the ears according to the peoples' shaped, different shaped heads everyone's different, anything else? +Okay, have a go at it and we'll come round and correct what you're doing as you're doing it, alright, so you want to pad over the wound to keep infection out and then try to get your bandage on top of that to keep the dressing in place. +Right, well we want to make sure that you can get out to lunch sort of by, that's running a bit fast that clock, we'd like to get you out to lunch by about half past twelve otherwise you'll end up being late don't you with all the other people +right +Right, okay, what now, erm roller bandages so you can put those triangular ones away for a minute can't you +Let's do the elbow +and we'll do the elbow and knee okay elbow and knee then using the roller bandage +And again here it is two pages further on in your book, if you forget how to do it, just look up, okay? +Roller bandages +Well I fell over, slipped over in the car park out there, all gravelly and gritty out there and I scraped my elbow and I've got a nasty graze all on the elbow and it's all full of grit and muck, help +Come and sit down here my dear +help +let's give us a little +now if we've got a tap handy probably the best thing would be to run it under the cold tap and that hopefully would take away any dirt and extra bits and pieces that are stuck around it. +If there's anything embedded in it like gravel or something and it doesn't come away easily you mustn't, it comes under the categories of what you call foreign bodies, which first aider is not at liberty to poke about, you must leave foreign bodies that don't come away easily where they are and bandage them round and send them off to hospital or a doctor, but assuming it's just a little clean graze, if I haven't got a tap to put it under, then I must use little bits of gauze to wash, put in a bowl of water and just wipe, yeah, and you always wipe obviously from the centre of a wound towards the outside, otherwise if you start to wipe across the whole thing you take dirt from one side of the wound across and drop it off in the middle somewhere, so you wipe from the centre out and throw that piece away and you take another piece and wipe from the centre out and so on until you feel happy, quite happy. +I mean, well if you haven't got gauze in your first aid box, but you could have something like a Mediwipe or you might be able to use, open up your bandage and you can use, you know, several pieces of this, just keep going down the bandage and then you know clean it and get rid of that bit, okay, another clean bit okay, so you can adapt with whatever you've got in your first aid box, yes, and you won't necessarily have scissors to hand so you'll have to do whatever you've got and the little Mediwipes are very useful for that, but don't use one Mediwipe for seventy five grazes, okay, one Mediwipe for one wipe and then discard, okay? +Okay, so I'm going to open up my sterile dressing now +So I actually put my arm out straight for you now? +Do you think it'd be better if you had it bent cos it'll be easier for you after I've bandaged it +It's better bent is it? +Yes +Okay, alright +it would be better if you can manage +alright +to bend if it's not too uncomfortable +so I can bend it, I can bend it like that then? +Right, you can only bend, you can only put the arm in the position that your casualty will let you of course, but it is more comfortable to have it bandaged in that position, than having it like that. +So you open it up and you find which is your sterile bit and you put that over the point of the elbow and you can bring that once around and you can ask her to hold it for you, if you like +It goes in there +right +yes +and then you take your long end and you wind above covering the edge and overlapping and then the low, then covering the edge and overlapping, there and again you keep working your way up and down, a figure of eight until you get to the end of your bandage then tie away from the body in your reef knot, either you tuck your ends in or if that's awkward you can just put a sticking plaster over the ends to get them out of the way like that, so just tuck the ends in and I don't think your casualty's going to need a sling for a little graze like that +Right, and so that she can still move +and as the same thing applies to the knee exactly the same thing, wound there you keep the knee bent a little bit and you can do exactly the same bandage like a figure of eight, okay? +So one person will do the bandage on the elbow and the other person with the good looking knees, you'll be the casualty for where you've got to put the knee bandage on, cos you won't, if you don't roll your trousers up a bit you're not going to have much bandage to do much bandaging with on the knee, okay, so decide amongst yourselves who's got the good looking knee +Everybody okay now? +Yeah +Yeah? +Excuse me I've got a circulation problem +Now +All okay then? +Yeah? +A couple more to show you then you can practise these when you have a bit more practice time so we can get you out to lunch on time. +If you have to bandage a hand for example, okay? +Somebody's slipped over and they've got all the grit in their knuckles in the part of their knuckles and you want to bandage the hand or there's a cut on the hand, even on the palm, we can do that one later when it's really, when it's really a gash, gushing blood we can do this afternoon, I repeat again none of these which you've done this morning will control severe bleeding, get it into your heads this is just to cover to keep infection out, alright, these are not to control severe bleeding just covering a minor wound or a graze, right? +So she's got her knuckles grazed, you've cleansed it, put it into a drop of water,ra or else we've used the Mediwipes or the end of the bandage okay, now we just cover it, okay, so it goes over, can you just straighten out your hand for me, it goes over the wound, okay and you can take this one that she can hold it for you just up there, right, now the rest of this just winds round, the only thing you really need to do is to just make sure that you leave the thumb out, cover up the bottom right and then come up towards the wrist, cover up the top of the pad, come back down again, leave the thumb out all the time, got the idea? +Right, cover up again, come up towards the wrist, if you've got any more bandage, go round perhaps one more time okay and just make sure at the end of the day that you don't tie too tightly round the wrist, why not? +Stop circulation +Absolutely, so really we want to tie away from this pulse point here towards the back of the hand, good enough +Yeah +right, tie it off in a reef knot, if you've got bits that are left dangling they're too long and you can't go round again because it's gonna make it too tight, you can either tuck them in or else you can fold them down, a nice clean plaster and put it right over the top, okay? +Now that would do, that would do whether the, whether the knuckles were hurt or it was just a minor cut in the palm of the hand there, that would do and you can use the same type of bandage on the foot alright, so that's if the hand was damaged, now supposing we didn't have the hand damaged, but we had instead a cut up here, okay, again clean it and if you clean it with lots of water always remember to dry off around the wound because bugs love a moist skin to grow in, dry the wound before you apply the dressing okay if you can, dry it off the best you can and then you're going to place that over the cut, remember you want the pad to be long enough, big enough, okay, now she can hold this for you again, she can hold it above where the wound is and now when you bandage this one you always bandage from the narrow part to the fat part of the limb, you always bandage from the narrow to the fat, so you take the bandage down +Why? +Because that way it stays on if you do it the other way it'll drop off it's as simple as that, okay, cover the pad and as you spiral up the arm all you need to do is to cover about two thirds of what you've just done before, just like a spiral, you find the bandages, the more you use those roller bandages of yours the worse they get to control because they lose their, you know, nice and stretchiness, so you just do, cover up the pad at the top, tie always on the top of the arm never underneath here. +Check with your casualty that it's comfortable, yes? +and does it feel quite firm for you? +Not too tight though? +No +And those bits again, either tuck them in out of the way or better still fold them over and put a big plaster over the top to get them right out the way so no ends are left dangling, remember for most people you're doing this for they'll probably be returning to their place of work, okay, so they need to be safe to return to work, everybody okay on that lot? +So let's just recap on the ones you've done this morning, you've done a high sling yes +Mm +you've used a triangular bandage to cover a wound in the scalp, it's not a chopping block wound right, it's not the chopper in its wound right, it's just a minor wound in the scalp, yes, and that came round and tied at the front, tucked at the back, you used these roller bandages to cover a graze or a wound on the end of an elbow or a knee or the hand, foot and then a straight one up the arm okay, so a lot of your bandaging is using these little roller bandages with the lint pad and don't forget when you get into the exam do it, don't do it the wrong way round, remember that you look at your bandage and you put the lint onto the wound, not the other way round right, yeah, you put the lint face down onto the wound, okay? +Any questions of anything we've done? +All alright on that, yes? +We get time to practise these again before the exam? +Oh yes , now if by any chanc chance you do have a question in the exam where you're asked you know instead of the wound being on top of the scalp, some clever so and so decides that you're good at improvising and you've got a wound over the top of the eyebrow, the eyebrow's split, okay, so there wouldn't be much good of me going a minute, pull that there, trying like this round there +right, okay, it's not really in the best interest of the casualty is it, right, now what dressing would you apply to that do you think? +A plaster +Plaster +An eye plaster, an eye pad +A an eye pad won't really sop up blood will it? +A roller plaster +One of them, of course you will, you use a roller bandage won't you again? +In this instance you can put it across the eyebrow, right, across the eyebrow, ask them to hold it and if you're doing a bandage like this the way to keep it on is to have one part of the bandage going above the ear and the next time you go round go below the ear right, go above the ear and the next time you go round go below the ear okay and then finally just tie it off, get the idea? +Okay, so they may ask you to use something which you haven't necessarily had to do before so that they're really all that the examiner's testing is that you've got a little bit of nous, a little bit of savvy and with what you've got available you can improvise a dressing or use the dressing in a sensible manner so that your casualty's comfortable and you're doing the best you can for them, okay? +Lovely. +Anything else to add Audrey? +No that's fine +Everyone alright then, okay, it's time for grub isn't it? +Yes it is, quarter past one please +Quarter past one back here, okay? +Anyone want coffee? +Anyone staying here and want a cup of coffee? +Yes please +Yeah we'll do one in a minute for you then +So you have the heart of the centre of it, two pumps back to back yes, the major pump or the stronger pump on the left hand side, why? +That's where the blood leads by, okay, on that side of the heart the left hand side of the heart it's being pumped and therefore the muscle is a bigger muscle, that's doing the contracting, the blood push out and it relaxes back again and that allows the blood to be sucked back down into the heart, okay, and the next time it's shh, that goes out and then it relaxes down again and the blood sucks back down into the heart, okay so that's what it does, all the muscle can do is that, muscle can only retract and then it relaxes, contract and then it relaxes, that's what the heart's doing all the time, how many beats a minute? +Sixty to eighty +Sixty to eighty you can feel it at pulse point, can't you, here, here, we'll show you so more in a minute, okay? +So you know how to check whether the circulatory system is working because if it's working you'll be able to find a pulse pounding away, yes, that's how you check it, you know the respiratory system's working because if you want to check it what do you want to look for? +Rise and fall +Rise and fall of chest breath on your hand or your cheek, circulatory system working, pulse, okay? +And that's what you're checking, the other side of the heart, the right hand side of the heart with a smaller pump, where's that pumping? +Blood out +The lungs +Back up to the lungs, okay, now in that little system there, there's just one thing that's interesting to note, when you spoke about circulatory system this morning or yesterday rather with Audrey, you spoke about the blood being always leaving the heart, yes, via the arteries, yes +Yes +and always coming back to the heart +By the veins +by the veins , there's always an exception to every rule and the exception to that rule in the case of the heart and the lung connection is the pulmonary artery and the pulmonary vein, you may not get asked anything about this, but just in case you do it's as well to know, in that instance the flow is reversed, in other words the pulmonary vein takes blood away from the heart and up to the lungs, and the pulmonary artery brings the oxygenated blood back down to the heart from the lungs, if you want to have a look at the diagrams for that and look at it yourself later on, there's no need for you to get concerned or confused about this at all, there's no need. +You'll find the little diagram showing you where the pulmonary vein and the pulmonary artery are on page eleven, page eleven if you want to refer to it right, if you want to look at it in a closer detail tonight that's fine and if you want to see what I'm saying now in a diagrammatic form look on page thirteen now if you look at that you'll see some, the blue vein blood vessels it's coming out of the right hand side of the heart and if you look at the direction of the arrows, okay, they're going away from the heart, do you agree with me? +They come out of the heart and branch like a wishbone, one to each lung, do you see that, now the arrow direction is away from the heart and that's a vein and you'd expect that to be coming back to the heart wouldn't you? +And that's the only time you're going to find it when you're linking the heart and the lungs, now look at those two areas where you've got blood coming back down into the heart, can you see those two wishbones there coming back down into the heart, do you see where I mean, yes? +Now those are arteries, that's the pulmonary artery but it's coming back to the heart okay, that's the only time you're going to find the rule reversed, arteries leave the heart, veins come back to the heart, and the only time that rule is reversed is when you're linking the heart and the lungs through the pulmonary vein and the pulmonary artery, however, they are still carrying, the arteries are still carrying oxygen charged blood, yes, because it's come fresh from the lungs so it's still carrying nice red lovely oxygenated blood, yes, even though it's coming back into the heart, that is because it's come fresh from the lungs and the vein although it's going in the opposite direction the way you normally expect it, is still carrying the old rotten, you know, used up blood, because it's going back to the lungs to be recharged, do you understand it alright? +That's the only time it'll be reversed +Can you just say that bit about the pulmonary in the vein and the pulmonary in the wee artery again please +The pulmonary artery comes back into the heart, the pulmonary vein goes away from the heart +Vein goes home +back up to the lungs, they are linking the heart and the lungs +Yeah, I've written that down +alright and if you look at the diagram on page thirteen and you look at the little arrow diagram you'll see that it gives it quite nice and clearly there is that alright? +Just wanted to clarify that little point, so you know the organs that make up the circulatory system, you know how to check it, you know the one slight difference than what you normally expect veins and arteries to be doing okay? +Now we need to talk a little bit about what happens when the veins or the arteries or the capillaries for that matter, the veins, the arteries or the capillaries have a leak in them, they become broken, now you already know that the circulatory system is a closed system and that the blood can only do its job if it's being transported within that system, once the blood comes outside of that system then it's lost the circulation and it cannot perform its proper function any more, in other words the body's losing its blood, okay, what condition do we call it when the circulatory system stops working properly? +Shock +Shock, do you understand the difference between the loss of pressure and loss of volume, volume would be when liquid was leaking out, coming out of the blood vessels, okay, pressure would be when the heart itself, the pump itself had failed or was not working properly, failed completely or was not working properly, do you understand the difference? +Obviously eventually if people keep on leaking blood their pressure will fall but you could have a situation where there's not a single drop of blood yet lost to the system and yet the person's in shock because the blood's not being circulated properly off the heart, not a drop of blood lost to the system, but insufficient pressure, so shock can be caused by either of those two things, failure of the circulatory system because the pressure of the volume drops dangerously low, okay, you did a lot of work on what the person looks like, yes you as the casu you as the first aider will see this person in front of you, what will they be like? +What will their face look like? +.And perhaps the the neighbours leave the dog with Mandy how ever it is. +The dog stays in the house on his own. +Every day they go to work! +Mm? +Christine goes to work! +The dog stays on his own! +Well, Christine takes him up there if they come here for the weekend. +Oh yeah. +Or he, he goes and opens the door to let him out. +Well there you, you see! +Perhaps, perhaps they've arranged to go somewhere on Saturday. +They might tomorrow night, I don't know! +It's a great events coming here isn't it? +When they're all and ! +Well she doesn't go with Violet, does it? +If they're , I bet she's got her nose in everything! +No, I don't think she would. +But if she wants . +If they ask her to do something! +She, she will. +And if she wants a new pair of shoes she's gotta go to a new town and pay for them. +everywhere to buy them! +Got her a paper of shoes today for . +Yeah but I haven't er decided right, I don't know her yet! +Mm? +I haven't decided, but I don't know her yet! +.Can't wait till Margaret's gone! +Mm. +I'll go down then. +Hoping that's gonna , ready like. +Apart from everything, we know something about Margaret coming, see! +And they're al , alright. +Yeah. +Shouldn't that be? +Mhm. +They will know nothing! +Nothing wrong with her! +No. +No. +Yeah er Prime Minister, John Major John Major's anxious wife, Norma has a job keeping her cool as she faces the anger of a town blighted by unemployment. +The couple were both shoved and jostled as around one hundred demonstrators greeted them with jeers and shouts in Bolton, Lancashire. +Police helmets went flying as officers formed a protective cordon around the Majors. +Bricklayer, Tony one of the town's twelve thousand jobless said I came along to show my contempt with his government policies! +Mr Major abandoned the plan of twenty minutes full campaign walk about after just five minutes ! +Mm. +We don't want them, you see! +No. +It looks better all the time don't it? +Well i , if, it would be like that all over the country! +But in one place ! +Well it is like that all over the country though innit? +No. +Well I think the sky is brightening up! +I do hope so! +I mean, you can see that red bush in the corner quite clear now! +Can you? +Mm. +And I would see it a lot clearer if my glasses were clean! +Well I saw something here! +I don't know what it was, but only a little tiny wee bit and it was real funny! +I think . +I can't find it now! +It's always the way! +No! +Well I got some of . +I can't remember where it is. +Mm mm mm mmmm mm mm mm Oh ho, off to work we go da da da dum dum da da . +What about ? +James and Stuart a couple of and when he was preg erm that's Douglas Hurd. +Oh yeah Dougie! +He, when he was Foreign Secretary. +What is he now? +Foreign Secretary, you know? +Mhm. +He's so public, him. +Oh God! +Who would imagine! +Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd is on the telly all the time telling us he can't put his eye on a labour government to be firm with Gadaffi of Libya or sa or Saddam Hussein of Iraq. +So here I publish a picture of him ten years ago when he was Junior Minister he is enjoying a marvellous a party at London's Intercontinental Hotel. +He's forced the Libyan government a cause for celebration the tenth anniversary of the coming to power of their president Colonel Gadaffi. +Mhm. +Previous year Mr Hurd on behalf of the Foreign office was celebrating in the . +The great event, an anniversary +of the coming of power of the the dictatorship. +And who was top man in that dictat in that dictatorship to which Iron Man Hurd raised his glass! +Saddam Hussein ! +Mm. +didn't it? +Mm. +Mhm, and now they're trying to fight to get him from there! +Well now they are fighting! +I mean the , they've done it once a , and didn't do it! +That's all creating him back up now isn't it? +He was given a, a week +Ah, ah, ah, ah ! +or a fortnight or something to do something with their lot. +It isn't raining is it? +No, I don't think. +A bit foggy! +Dunno. +Well, let's hope this weather picks up for when Margaret gets here. +Or she'll be looking a bear skin! +And her super warm coat! +Oh yes ! +Well i ah, I dunno. +Well she won't think it's cold because I mean, it's sunny every day is it? +Well she couldn't of had it colder than when dad was in hospital! +And by hell it was cold! +Bitter cold! +And wet! +And blowing! +You couldn't had it worst! +The only you could of had was the snow! +Ooh, but that was! +Well she shivered! +And she shivered! +Yeah ! +Yeah, and what, new clothing +and she said as, well what she used to say about it was nobody's business! +And I mean, if they get a we , a wet day isn't it just rainy in there, it's lovely and warm! +In there, well , but it isn't warm . +But it is to us who is used to this sodding weather! +We had lovely weather then! +And, and we only had a rain on one day I think it was. +Er, you know, like a shower, one big shower. +Well normal shower. +And it must have been cold bloody flat! +Mm. +Must of been, cos they'd been out all day. +No fire, no nothing on! +And then to go home, tired and cold in an empty place, and cold and must of been terrible! +Oh I dunno if yo you get into bed and the blanket was on,yo you know, you know? +She said she wasn't expecting to go out, out all day ! +Well she erm she can't remember exactly! +But I mean er she knew +But Rowan and her went on Boxing Day. +When did David and Pam go? +I've no idea. +Cos she didn't sleep here. +So they all must have gone out for the dinner. +So they must of stayed until erm Boxing Day, Christmas Day rather. +Oh they're coming here for Christmas. +Wish they was. +.And they went on Boxing Day dinner. +They had their dinner and went! +I've no idea! +Not the foggiest! +Didn't they stay at the flat? +Somebody did! +Yeah, David and Pam and Margaret all slept at the flat! +And they must of come over for Christmas dinner. +Yes, because David tucked into his er Christmas pudding! +He loved it! +And Pam was shouting about the bloody cholesterol! +And then they had Boxing Day dinner. +And David and Pam must have gone as well, cos Margaret went with Rowan. +Up Newtown way, they were going up to Ruth. +And +Wonder where she got ? +I shall bloody quiz her about that! +And er David and Pam must of gone the other way you know, they'd gone their way home, and had gone her way home. +But er and then Astra was here and she was going bloody North! +She goes ey and it's colder up there ! +Well she found it cold here and she . +Oh it was hysterical because it was blowing a gale! +Violet and me were over cleaning your flat. +That was the day you was taken into hospital and she was in the bed, cos they were on their way down so we were changing the bloody beds! +And you come down through the alley way and you could not keep your feet on the floor! +You could move! +And we'd got these bags,, I said just bang all the sheets into bin bags, we can wash them next week if you think I'm starting! +But make sure, you know, you well you take over the house, so we know what's in them in case they get thrown out with the bloody rubbish! +So we put them all into bin bags and we was trying to carry these bin bags so the wind was taking them like balloons ! +And you were hanging on and trying to keep your feet on the floor! +God, I laughed! +And then er they came. +I can't remember what time or anything about it. +I think they must have come to the flat. +They'd been for a meal and they came to the flat and they rung us to say they were there. +Something like that, I can't remember. +And then, the next day they came over. +I think they came that night. +The next day they came over. +And this gale was still blowing! +And it was blowing! +You just couldn't +Well I dare say they went back to the hospital! +No, they didn't! +No they didn't get, be there till eight! +Just eight-ish something like that. +Cos they'd been for a meal on the way as well! +Cos I've said come over for supper. +No, they didn't want supper. +Cos they'd had this meal. +And erm then the next day they came over and David was laughing, he said, do you, do you know the alley way down between he said, well it blew it her up right against that bloody wall he said! +Well Aunty couldn't move he said! +He I and I said, and you laughed at her? +Course I did he said ! +And I said, did you help her? +No, I didn't. +Let her battle it out he said! +Well they came over here then and they'd been up and they come back with Gillian and all that and they stayed. +And they went from here about nine-ish I suppose? +They'd had supper anyway. +Then they were going over and they were gonna go to bed. +They'd been to the hospital, and they'd been over the flat so I said to them well pop the blankets on and come over here then and have your supper and go back. +And the beds will be nice and warm for you to get into. +But anyway, they left here about nine o'clock. +Well she'd gone out through the door and the wind took her down the bloody street! +I said to though, he said she was going there another way! +And David was there +was laughing ! +And it was just she was running with it! +There's just her battling against it ! +They have mid-winter days just like our high summer! +It was lovely! +Oh and we laughed about it! +And I said, better go and collect her! +But David said look at shifting ! +Yeah but er you see on Christmas Day children were going about in bikinis and and shorts , or no socks or so +Mm. +I couldn't, you know,i ,i , it's difficult to put it in your head, like when I was there! +Oh, it's Christmas Day you know? +Mm. +Christmas Day! +And I get us up in the morning now and, she said she said the temperature rises to sometimes a hundred and twenty in the summer! +And if it's a very hot day you try to stay in. +Yeah, but it isn't summer yet! +Mm? +It isn't summer yet! +No! +But if, if it'll do that at mid-summer i , it +It's about ninety there now! +Eighties. +Yes. +Eighty to ninety, sure to be! +And that's one of our terribly hot days! +Of course, everywhere i ,i , it's all air conditioned and and it's, obviously. +Definitely mustn't open a window! +Then the, daren't open the window! +Cos the flies will come in. +Well she'll have bloody shock if she was here in the summer then! +Yes, I think. +Of course, I don't know, perhaps they +Couldn't live in the winter! +Perhaps their flies are different to ours. +They are, they're the, the same. +Th They're mosquitoes. +Now then, she mosquitoes so they, they bite . +Anyway you get a mosquito bite . +Yeah but, she said they don't da ,the they bite you and it's got poison if you're not careful! +I could never live with the window shut! +Of course, the room is air conditioned all the time. +They have the batteries going and all. +Yeah cos they have it keep pushing! +Same here! +One place to another! +Yeah, but it , it's circulating i , isn't it? +Yeah , but it's all the same. +not too nice. +It isn't fresh! +I was saying Danny the other day do you remember the time he came and got out his in there? +I would get a piece of erm well I got a piece in the greenhouse it wouldn't worthy of it then, but it doesn't matter! +Piece of board and fix in the doorway and fix it open. +Put it high enough so that the cats wouldn't come, but leave it then. +It's just a big window open. +Cos then yo , once you have the doors closed as low as that cos no air gets in! +No, actually cos it's not air +We opened the +conditioned here! +They are there! +You open the top and then let the cats in at the bottom! +Yeah, that's it! +And, and circulate air, you see. +So I put a board across there. +They've got double windows. +Like, they got the window and then they've got erm a, a sliding +Sliding window inside. +Yeah. +Like a, a, a net to keep the flies out. +You can open the outside window. +What do they call them? +Yeah. +Erm +Mosquito thing. +Well we used to have them in Middle House. +Erm, but ours was a piece of frame work and a grating on it, and you stuck that in the window, when you opened the window you push that in so the air could come in and mosquitoes couldn't. +You used to mo , mosquitoes dreadful at Middle House when the lake was there. +It's the damp warm and damp. +No, the lake was mouldy you see! +Yeah, oh! +Stale, dirty water! +Was a breeding place. +And we'd be out in the middle of that! +Buzzzz All in your face! +Mind you, you do everywhere! +Yes, but that was a breeding centre there. +It was they were back and forward there by the thousands! +Oh I knew , I shall have to go and er put my bits back together again! +I got the clock all on the floor now! +Well, yes. +Anyone put their bloody foot on it! +Oh well, the sky is looking a lot brighter. +Isn't it? +Well it's still got a lot to do. +Er, oh well it's er +That's if we've got it back! +It's about somewhere! +It's poking through somewhere. +Oh God! +I shall be satisfied that er er these things are shooting up . +I, I in, in the night. +Good God, that one is going now! +Don't know where the hell it's going! +That one's going right up! +It's nearly up on the fence! +When it was a . +What? +The clematis. +From erm Wales. +It's sort of pale innit? +Which one? +Which one? +And the daffs are still looking nice! +Tomorrow is it,coming here? +No. +Oh. +No, Violet was It'll be Easter won't it? +Next week, the week after or something? +Well I thought, she's coming down with Martin and Uncle Marvin and all that, and she's going to be here for dinner, now she isn't! +Oh. +going up the step. +They look a lot better than they did last year! +Well they've spread it now. +What about this poor thing in the corner? +Come in +ruddy cat! +You come in. +It's a late one. +Two week. +Oh is it? +Oh! +Come in ! +Here, you alright now? +You got a white one. +What? +There's a lot of white ones! +There the ones you brought in er +Are they? +white. +Undo it all. +There's an animal up there. +Oh! +Oh yeah, they were a mix! +She did get a few out of one bag and a few out of another. +, but I said I didn't want er Narcite +Aren't those funny? +Those two that you had in , you'd of thought they'd have bloomed quicker, but there's they're like that! +Oh yeah ! +What happened to them? +Growth perhaps? +See them go, well they have now! +Well, they've been up there long enough now to +To spread. +Yeah I know. +Tried the again? +Mm. +Mm mm, +I think the cat's are trying to ruin it! +This is a miserable old lot here! +That one's quite pretty, it's this bloody cable here! +Oh I like that one! +Well I think he's quite pretty! +Poor old cactus! +First it's erm it's erm they're too small! +They're not ! +No, well you want to put it in that front lawn . +There's enough in that bloody front lawn, I don't know where ca about it! +Know what to think about. +I didn't know what to suggest about it. +Well there is not because that doesn't seem to right +I think they're guarding their van! +Oh, there's plenty in there now. +Ah, but this is the better of the two. +A flaming lorry load of stuff! +Ah but they, I don't know i ,i , if +I dunno. +I can't answer! +Moving the or something. +Put the bloody paraffin on it and burn the lot off! +by the roots you see. +It's the roots that you've gotta get them by the top. +Leave for three years. +Oh good! +No, take the paper. +Oh no! +Yes that's right. +Yeah, that's it. +Here you are then! +Nothing on the telly is there? +Go and collect my bits out there. +Oh no look at that! +Right then ! +Go and collect all my bits. +Well have you finished . +And they were forty what? +Forty two. +Let's have a look. +La la la la, la la ah la la la la la +mm mm mmm mm mm mm mm mm mm +Fisherman's friend . +Which friend are they talking about then? +I said do you go to ? +Oh! +.It's for a . +Are you coping then? +Ay +retire soon. +Oh, so they're retired? +Mm. +They still don't they? +. +don't do anything! +Tomorrow go and do the lawn. +Christmas I think was the last time. +What is the date today? +Twentieth. +Twentieth. +Tomorrow is the first day of spring. +Mhm. +Hopefully! +You eating some more potato? +They just swapped another . +Labour did? +He made his press speech this morning saying that she couldn't even cos he thought that go down the hospital. +And he saw many patients. +Well that's what Norman Tebbit's telling him isn't it? +Open the book. +No and +It isn't! +It was about +the same. +He's already made the statement this time. +And he was telling the opposite! +And . +Oh dear! +gonna get the push first! +Mm? +Well I seems like every bank's lending! +Just let me have the today. +They should know after their +Mm? +game. +Ha! +went to Bolton yesterday. +Ey he said. +In his +He had a rollocking there! +He said that the they, him and Linda pack up. +Yeah. +And then him and Nora is. +Norma. +Norma. +And police protection, get out of the town! +He's gonna find a lot of that! +Well when he gets in the right places he's only been doing schools and you know? +Hazel knows nothing about it. +That's the first time he said yesterday he says will you do something to +Yeah and then you know he knows that er the su ,ones. +But he hadn't been out in the +That's why +world yet! +Mind you, that had always . +Mm. +That wasn't her earlier. +No, but she was always out there. +Never slept through! +Oh yeah. +And I don't think his wife is that type of woman. +She can't stand that bit of pressure! +Well +Wait till the eggs start flying! +painful You!which is strong +I agree. +strong conservative +Very well! +strong! +Have you +Oh! +maybe she does deal with +Ooh! +with the conservatives. +Five, six er +Mm. +Do you wanna watch it before I tape over it? +Cos it's really worth watching! +Is it? +That is bound to get some stick! +Ooh! +What's that? +I'm not gonna ! +Cos like they say yesterday er . +It's their down the road. +I was really amazed at the people every time going round spoke the chair +Mm! +they're so staunch conservative! +They have five seats in Bedfordshire they're all taken with conservatives! +Good Lord! +Only one side of them is crisp. +work for her before they go. +I'm fighting working harder they can't clear what they said what's happening without the other group coming. +They're fighting with their lives aren't they? +Yeah. +Probably have to work harder! +But they're not, they're not going to get anywhere are they? +What is Major's job when he isn't Prime Minister? +I'll tell you which his job is,. +Not at all? +Dunno. +He used to work +You mean the cabinet? +He used to work in the dock's offices. +Yeah. +As a clerk. +No, I know he was that. +The next Prime Minister will get him a job, see. +Won't he? +Anything. +Well he'll have a nice lot of money when he finished being Prime Minister. +. +Mm mm. +Yeah,. +Oh! +And I can't +There's too much of that P D R and Z Y X business! +Ey +And what's it mean? +representation. +What it is anyway proposal representation are being sent out if anybody down here you'll go into England if I voted conservative you know, just say for example it wouldn't be the one past the post it'll be the one with the most votes +That'll get the job. +that'll get the job for the county. +Mm. +And that's what it is. +No. +Anyway he says it will be decided upon cos it's the half an hour to go at it, you watch in the end . +He said if there's one thing I always carry quite close to my heart and if you'll just give me a minute I'll take out. +And he read this this P R and he said this is from a junior minister, Conservative minister in nineteen eighty four wro wrote these words in a book and he says that up and coming Conservative young minister was none other than +than Chris Patten. +And he was sat right next to him. +He didn't know anything about this and he had to admit, he did say this! +This . +But now, he says, it'll change his mind. +Mm To change his mind. +You should of heard the people in the audience! +Well you can change your mind if you want to! +Yes but he wrote a book called this because he thought that er the conservatives were losing . +And they thought they were . +Yeah. +And all he could say to them was ! +Nineteen eighty three. +Well what's gonna come in to save them this time? +They're hoping fall all back down again that they're gonna fall back. +Fa +You reckon? +go back again. +And they think other people will change their minds. +To keep the same Prime Minister now. +You're wrong! +I like + +gentleman. +Boos, jeers and some tense moments as the Queen receives the keys of Nicosia. +And acquitted, the doctor who prescribed cannabis to save her daughter from death of serious bodily harm. +A judge at the Old Bailey has jailed an Irish terrorist for twenty five years for plotting a massive I R A bomb attack in Central London. +Patrick Kelly who's forty one was also found guilty of attempting to murder one of the police officers who foiled the plot. +P C Raymond Hall was shot last November in North London when he tried to arrest Kelly and an accomplice who were in a lorry which was found to be packed with more than three tonnes of explosives. +The intuition of two unarmed policemen thwarted the I R A's attempt to plant the biggest ever bomb in the capital. +On patrol in North London in the early hours of the morning, they became suspicious about a seven tonne lorry. +Part of the number plate was obscured and it had been badly resprayed. +It was hardly surprising the two occupants made such a quick getaway when stopped. +Three and a half tonnes of home made explosives were inside, needing only seconds to prime. +The device was three times the size of the Baltic Exchange bomb and would have devastated buildings within three hundred yards. +Giving chase down a side road, one of the policemen challenged two men. +One of them pulled out a revolver aiming it inches away from P C Ray Hall's nose. +He ducked instinctively and the bullet grazed his head. +He felt a second shot hit him in the back and knock him off his feet. +He survived to tell an Old Bailey court of his miraculous escape. +P C Hall, a former Royal Engineer, who served in the Falklands war before joining the police, said he was convinced he was going to die. +Police believe Patrick Kelly was the driver of the lorry in North London rather than the gunman. +He had an unlikely background for a terrorist. +With convictions in England for gross indecency and importuning. +Although he was found guilty in Dublin of kidnapping, he was not a known I R A man. +But he and the suspect who escaped, were intent on repeating the mayhem of the City of London explosion eight months earlier. +Passing sentence, Mr Justice Leonard told Kelly, the public needed protection from him. +His bomb would have caused enormous damage and more importantly, could have killed anyone in the area. +The judge said P C Hall's bravery in preventing the attack deserved the highest commendation. +Er I joined the police five years ago with the intention of helping and serving the public and I think er last year I done it. +And today the public have er returned their gesture in honour of me in the returning of the guilty verdict. +What I done on that night was no more than any other police officer does or would do in the same situation. +As he spoke, Patrick Kelly was driven away to begin his twenty five year sentence. +Neil Bennet, B B C News, at the Old Bailey. +A twenty one year old student has been cleared at the Old Bailey of raping another student after a drunken Christmas party. +Austin Donnellan went on trial at his own insistence because he said he was unhappy with the way the disciplinary committee at London University's King's College was dealing with the case. +Cleared of rape, Austin Donnellan stepped out of the Old Bailey and stepped into an angry scum of photographers and reporters fighting to get close to him. +His case, involving an allegation that he raped another student after going out with her, has attracted wide media attention. +Almost inaudible in the crush, he thanked everyone who'd helped him in the case. +I'm especially grateful to my friends who supported me by giving evidence. +Mr Donnellan who's twenty one and the woman were students at King's College in London. +The court heard how last Christmas they both went to a dance, the woman got very drunk and they ended up back at her room. +The court was told she'd alleged she was unconscious when he had sex with her. +But he told the court it was quite the opposite. +She was not a dead piece of meat, he said, but very energetic in bed. +She encouraged sex. +Donnellan said that if at any time she'd wanted him to stop, he would have done. +The court heard the police became involved in the case at Mr Donnellan's insistence. +The woman student and King's College wanted the matter dealt with by the University's disciplinary committee. +But Mr Donnellan claimed they wanted him to admit a lesser charge to get him out of the college quietly. +He said he refused to accept this because he was not guilty of anything. +The college were going to try the issue before a pr private almost secret little disciplinary committee containing academics and students. +And he didn't want that. +He wanted it tried out in the open and for his name to be cleared. +Decisively and that's happened now. +Mr Donnellan's tutor said the case was important because it dealt with such a sensitive issue. +The key point to me was as soon as he said n as she said, No, he stopped. +In my book that's not rape. +And it seems not in the jury's book either and I'm very glad of it. +Moved by the verdict, Mr Donnellan's mother said she was proud he'd taken the case to the police in order to clear himself. +The family are now celebrating at a secret location. +Triona Holden, B B C News, the Old Bailey. +Women's groups have responded angrily to the jury's decision to clear Austin Donnellan of rape. +And the case has again raised the question of what constitutes consent to sex. +Scenes like this leading to brief encounters between couples who may scarcely know each other, can some say, cause confusion about sexual etiquette. +Is it reasonable for a woman to invite a man to her bedroom, even to undress and get into bed, and still reserve the right to refuse penetrative sex? +It shouldn't be, Okay, we're in bed together, we're gonna have sex whether you want to or not. +If someone changes their mind, they have that prerogative. +Er and if someone isn someone might be getting into bed and and not intending to have sex then that's fine as well. +However others of an older generation say women should know the risks they take once they take their clothes off. +The male sex drive being what it is, the chances of his being able to stop are less perhaps than she realizes. +There is a point for many men which they regard as the point of no return. +And as I say, if they are perfect men, maybe they can take a deep breath and stop just like that. +But some men can't. +Students at London University were almost unanimous today in saying a couple going to bed together didn't necessarily mean the woman consents to sex. +If the woman has asked him to stop, if she has changed her mind and doesn't want to go through with with the action o of intercourse or whatever, then the man should stop. +Everybody's very confused by it. +Most sex is probably nearer to rape, particularly in one's early years. +And we might like to give credit for And I think it's really hard to learn to read the signs. +Both parties, the man and the woman should always be in control of the situation and if for some reason they want things to stop, should have the authority and the power to do that. +But some were less sure. +I think if a girl got into bed with you er no clothes, I think the intention to have sex is very clear. +I'm against rape but definitely if a woman er goes to a man's bed then it's quite er er sensible that if a man expects to have sex with that woman. +Simple as that. +However, social historians say couples having non-penetrative sex goes back a long way. +A practice called bundling was quite common in the past. +With an unmarried couple in a bed with a bolster down the middle. +They'd just be in their underwear and er it's er there's certain evidence that they engaged in what we would call heavy petting nowadays. +Some women say the old idea that a man is uncontrollable past a certain point is absurd. +Consent from a woman needs to be gained at every stage during sex, even once a couple are in bed. +But others say that this definition of rape will undermine the progress made so far in getting the courts to take rape seriously. +It was only two years ago that rape by husbands became illegal. +Polly Toynbee. +The Prime Minister has again made it clear he has no intention of scrapping plans to put V A T on fuel and power. +During Prime Minister's questions. +the Labour leader John Smith urged the government to abandon what he called these foolish proposals. +But Mr Major said extension of V A T was a vital part of policies to reduce public borrowing, earlier the Prime Minister presided over a cabinet discussion of the options for next month's budget. +The cabinet's discussion was hampered by deep uncertainty about the strength of the recovery. +Views differed on how much any increase in taxes could threaten the move out of recession. +The most cheerful remarks seemed to have been made about the health of Michael Heseltine, who was making his first appearance at the cabinet since his heart attack. +The Prime Minister led the welcome, there were cries of, hear hear and a ritual banging of the cabinet table. +The chancellor kept his cards very close to his chest. +He intends to wait until the last moment before making the vital decision on taxes. +Mr Major told the commons that the recovery does seem to have taken root. +And he made clear that despite the government's small majority, they would be prepared to take difficult decisions about how to reduce the enormous government deficit. +The reality is that we need to cope with the fiscal deficit and we have the courage to do so. +The labour leader opened up an Autumn offensive against the extension of V A T. +Does the Prime Minister have the remotest appreciation of the overwhelming hostility throughout this nation to imposing V A T on domestic fuel. +In addition to its obvious unfairness, is there not now evidence that the governments tax increases impel consumer confidence and any hope of a recovery. +In these circumstances will the Prime Minister now abandon these foolish proposals. +Well I think the er right honourable gentleman knows for both I and my right honourable friend the chancellor have made the position quite clear, that the extra value added tax is a vital part of our policies to get public borrowing down but that we will be offering help to people who are vulnerable. +If the tax Madam speaker, is as obnoxious as the right honourable gentleman claims, then why did the Labour conference vote and I quote, For a general shift in taxation towards energy resource use? +What is that other than VAT? +The unpopularity of the V A T increase was a key factor in the Liberal Democrats victory in the Christchurch by-election. +The government's majority is now down to seventeen. +Getting a tough budget through the commons won't be easy. +John Sergeant, B B C News, Westminster. +The chancellor's team of independent economic advisors, the so- called seven wise men, have urged him not to do anything in his budget next month to damage the recovery. +They've called for the gradual introduction of tax increases balanced by a reduction in interest rates. +The chancellor's plans are always the subject of intense speculation as budget day approaches. +At the conference of town planners today, he expressed the treasury's customary disdain for most of it. +Strong rumours that I'm about to tax everything that moves and doesn't move. +And this has er been an experience of every chancellor before. +Er most of the accounts of what I'm discussing er are pretty well near fiction. +Er a and er they will certainly remain secret until I produce my budget. +But the rumours reflect merely what everyone knows, events are conspiring to make this budget a particularly difficult one. +The chancellor's major budget headache is that the government is fifty billion pounds in the red. +To reduce that borrowing figure, he could cut spending. +But the overall expenditure total for next year has already been agreed and it's unlikely that much more could be pared from it. +That leaves Mr Clarke with the option of raising taxes. +But higher taxes mean that consumers and businesses have less money to spend. +And that could damage the prospects for recovery. +In their thrice yearly report, the treasury's panel of independent advisors express concern about the economies fragility. +They're against large tax increases next month. +Instead they want to see a more gradual approach backed by a cut in interest rates. +We do think that there is a need to increase tax receipts further over the medium term from nineteen ninety five onwards by about one percentage point of G D P, about seven billion pounds. +But we do not think the chancellor should raise taxes much next year because the recovery is too weak to accept that. +Figures out today suggested those fears about recovery are well founded. +Consumer spending appears to be slowing. +The panel believe lower interest rates are needed to boost flagging demand. +But they think the chancellor will have no choice but to increase taxes in the longer term as the economic climate improves. +The message to the chancellor is a clear one, don't tax now, tax later. +But he knows that later means closer to the next election. +And while it may be economically desirable to raise taxes then, it might prove politically impossible. +Gerry Baker, B B C News, as the treasury. +About a hundred Greek Cypriot demonstrators booed and jeered the Queen today as she was handed the keys of Nicosia. +The divided capital of Cyprus. +The demonstrators want Britain to apologize for the executions of nine men who fought for the island's independence in the fifties. +Here's our Middle Eastern correspondent Michael Macmillan. +In Nicosia's old city, a couple of hundred right wing Eoka supporters chanted, The Queen is a traitor, we don't want you here. +Inside the walls at Famagusta Gate, the shouting could still be heard as the Queen was presented with the key to the city by the Mayor of Nicosia. +Those opposed to the Queen's visit had demanded that she be refused the honour both here and in Limassol. +It was an uncomfortable affair, the Mayor used it as an occasion to condemn what he called the Turkish occupation of the North of the island and Douglas Hurd looked on clearly anxious that the whole thing be wound up as soon as possible. +The chaos continued as they reversed the Queen's Rolls Royce for a quick departure. +Her press secretary looked worried. +As did her driver. +And Mr Hurd who's angered the Greek Cypriots by his plans to meet the Turkish Cypriot leader, declined to comment. +He was booed as well. +The Queen emerged to more protests but finally forced a smile before she was driven away. +Elsewhere in Nicosia there were several arrests and in one incident police fired tear gas to disperse a crowd. +It was a day in which the Queen was anxious to leave the past behind and to the end she made a point of meeting Argentinian soldiers who form part of the U N contingent here. +It has been a difficult day for the Queen and tonight she's been snubbed following the decision by the municipality of Limassol not to present her with the keys to the town. +The palace is playing it all down but clearly this visit is not going according to plan. +Michael Macmillan, B B C News, Nicosia, Cyprus. +The time is six sixteen and still to come, big supermarket chains line up to try to stop American style shopping in Britain. +The supermarkets say warehouse club shopping should be subject to the same planning laws as they are. +And Benazir Bhutto is back as Pakistan's Prime Minister for the second time. +A doctor who gave cannabis to her sick daughter has been cleared of criminal charges at Liverpool Crown Court. +Dr Anne denied supplying cannabis. +She said she gave it to her daughter because she believed it was the only drug which could help alleviate her condition. +She said she'd been following a higher moral law. +The trial lasted a week. +Dr always insisting that she wasn't campaigning for the legalization of cannabis. +For ten years, Anne who ran a G P practice from her home at Wallasey, tried to obstruct her daughter taking cannabis because she thought it would do her harm. +The court heard that Lucy who is thirty three has suffered a serious and intractable illness for thirteen years. +Eventually her mother became convinced cannabis could help after reading evidence from doctors in the United States. +The s' family priest says the conflict between medicine and law put a tremendous strain on the doctor. +As a doctor she would be i in the dilemma of of trying to give her daughter something which er is not allowed, and yet as a as a doctor she could prescribe other things for other people and here she is as a mother with her own child in her own house, unable to to do anything very much for her. +It took the jury less than an hour to clear Dr . +What she did she did clearly for the benefit of her daughter who was unwell, as any normal natural mother would in the circumstances. +What what are you going to do now? +I want to go and have a gin and tonic. +A double gin. +Dr 's defence had been legally unusual, that of necessity. +She believed that supplying cannabis to her daughter was morally right in the medical circumstances. +John Thorne, B B C News, Liverpool. +Two men who ran Britain's biggest ecstasy smuggling gang have each been jailed for twenty four years at Maidstone Crown Court. +The men, Ronald Maine and Ronald Johnson, headed an international operation, smuggling drugs worth and estimated fifty eight million pounds. +Two accomplices were also jailed for their part in the operation. +The supermarket chains, Sainsbury, Tesco and Safeway have applied to the high court to try to stop the opening in this country of an American style warehouse club. +Costco is due to open a club at Thurrock in Essex next month and is able to cut prices by keeping overheads low. +It's classified as a wholesaler but the supermarkets say Costco should be subject to the same planning rules as retailers. +This is the development that's upsetting Britain's supermarket giants. +A huge warehouse that's nearing completion at Thurrock in Essex, and which offers the kind of discounts already enjoyed by millions of Americans. +Like this Boston store, warehouse clubs are open to members only and though they're pitched at businesses, individuals can join too if they can show they've a steady income and pay their thirty dollar subscription. +For that they get access to anything from food to car tyres. +Mostly well known brands at up to fifty percent less than they'd pay elsewhere. +I need to have three of four hundred dollars because before you even get through the store, you just buy. +I believe that the large supermarkets have had it too good for too long. +They've had tremendous power in the market place with no competition. +American supermarkets have hit back by cutting many of their prices and printing more money off coupons. +They save this woman over twenty pounds a trip. +Like our own superstores, they stock a much wider range of goods than the warehouses, but experts say supermarkets in Britain should be worried if the clubs do take off here. +Unless they dramatically change the way they do business, they're going to have problems, they won't go away certainly. +I mean people are always going to want to want the convenience of er driving to a nearby established supermarket, but their profit margins will decline. +But the big three supermarket chains deny their high court action is to kill off Costco. +They say they simply want clubs to be subject to the same planning restrictions they face. +They're promoting themselves to a very significant extent on the basis that they're selling at cheaper prices to the public. +That means in my book that they're er doing retailing. +Er if they're retailers then they should er comply with retail regulations as does any other retailer in the United Kingdom. +Costco has already put in a second application to answer some of the criticisms. +But supermarkets have hinted that they may challenge that in the courts as well. +John Andrew, B B C News. +Benazir Bhutto has been sworn in as Prime Minister of Pakistan for the second time after a decisive victory in the country's parliament over her greatest rival, the Muslim League leader, Nawa Shariff. +But her Pakistan people's party must wait until tomorrow to find out if it has the power that comes with control of the key state of Punjab. +After days of coalition building, Benazir Bhutto could only wait to see if it had paid off. +Nawa Shariff lost the election and he's lost the battle for the independence and members of minority parties who hold the balance of power. +The count was a hundred and twenty one for Benazir Bhutto, seventy two for Nawa Shariff. +And from the Prime Minister's chair, a word for the loser. +Pakistani voters watched the drama unfold. +. a short drive from the capital, is one of the Punjab cities where Nawa Shariff is strongest. +His control of the Punjab Assembly neutralized Benazir Bhutto's last administration. +The former military dictator General Zir-El-Haaq is still revered here. +His son sits in the National Assembly for Nawa Shariff's party. +We have all come out with er with the worst er scenario ever er in the er democratic history of Pakistan. +And any government which is going to be formed in the centre I don't think it is going to last for too long. +Benazir Bhutto says that after the summer of turmoil in Pakistan, this could be the last chance for parliamentary democracy. +Everyone knows that if this time round, there is political instability, it may be a long time before Pakistan gets yet another chance at election. +But for now the army is prepared to watch and wait. +As Benazir Bhutto was sworn in the news came in that her choice for speaker had been elected in Punjab. +The first indication that tomorrow she could take the state. +Benazir Bhutto looks to be strong but it's a coalition of convenience not conviction, in a country where politics follows the rules of war, opposition means nothing, winning is everything. +Tonight Benazir Bhutto is winning. +David Loin, B B C News, Islamabad. +The Welsh Secretary, John Redwood, told the House of Commons today that the Welsh Development Agency had tightened up its procedures in the wake of a highly critical report. +In July the Commons public accounts committee attacked the W D A for its management practices and for making unauthorized redundancy payments worth more than a million pounds. +The Agency's chief executive has since resigned, another director left today and two other directors have been disciplined. +Our industry correspondent Stephen Evans reports. +Why have forty five Japanese companies chose Wales as their European launch pad? +The Agency has painted the brightest picture of Wales around the world. +Spending a hundred and seventy one million pounds a year to draw countless foreign firms. +But the image was tarnished by the public accounts committee report. +Neil Smith, guilty of fraud, became marketing director and interviewed models in a hotel. +Redundancy pay of one point four million pounds was said to be excessive. +The Agency's chief executive resigned yesterday. +One other official has gone, two demoted or reprimanded. +Procedures are to be tightened. +The independent panel that I appointed in July as you are aware, reported yesterday. +Its recommendations are severe. +However they are comprehensive. +And it has given the board opportunity to take the necessary action. +In Parliament this afternoon the debate was over where responsibility lies. +It is clear from the report that my predecessors were not to blame and that the primary responsibility lay at exept executive level in the W D A and I suggest honourable members opposite read the report . +Is it any wonder given such casual leadership from the Welsh Office, that standards in the Agency itself fell to such unacceptable levels. +This man's done a fabulous job. +The Welsh Development Agency, fabulous job. +But the Prime Minister of the time's favourite W D A head Dr Gwynne Jones has now gone. +As Wales seeks growth, the dilemma for the Agency is how to get a commercial go-getting mentality on public money with public control. +The government wants devolved decision making. +But then tight audits. +Labour fears privatization. +Stephen Evans, B B C News. +A bill to grant posthumous pardons to all three hundred and seven British soldiers who were executed in the first world war, has gained a formal first reading in the house of commons. +The MP who introduced the bill said many of the men who were shot for cowardice were in fact suffering from shell shock. +A village churchyard across the muddy fields from the Somme bears testimony to the British soldiers found to have failed their country. +Condemned as cowards, deserters, they were shot by their own side in a war which wiped out much of a generation. +In the first terrible hours of battle, twenty thousand died as they advanced into the German's heavy artillery and machine guns. +One suicidal attack followed another every soldier wavered between courage and fear. +In a regiment which had two men shot for cowardice, Reg Glen, now a hundred, says those executed didn't deserve dishonour or death. +It was shell shock. +There was a er no doubt it was a disease. +And it could attack anybody. +And er more likely to be people of a nervous disposition. +Those men who finally couldn't face going over the top from these trenches on the Somme, met with summary justice. +They had little chance to defend themselves at their court marshal, they weren't properly represented and there was very little right of appeal. +The firing squads met at dawn. +Just behind these front lines. +Corporal Harry Farr was shot for cowardice in October nineteen sixteen. +At the Somme memorial to those with no known grave, his granddaughter wants a posthumous pardon, to finally purge the shame her family had sought to hide for three generations. +My mother didn't know until she was in her mid forties. +And she only learnt from somebody else that her father had been executed. +It was a dreadful stigma. +MP Andrew McKinley says records at the Imperial war museum clearly show the brutality of battlefield justice. +His bill now goes forward for a second reading but stands a slim chance of becoming law. +Executed May nineteen sixteen. +Dear oh dear. +The families of those shot at dawn, still hope that Ministers who say they won't rewrite history, may yet change their minds and give every victim of the great war, the same respect. +Mike Donkin, B B C News, The Somme. +And tonight's main news again, an Irish terrorist Patrick Kelly, has been sent to prison for twenty five years for plotting a bomb attack in Central London and attempting to murder a policeman who stopped the lorry packed with explosives. +A London University graduate has been cleared of raping a student after a party. +And Greek Cypriot demonstrators jeered the Queen as she received the keys of Nicosia. +The next national news is the Nine O'clock News but from Anna Ford and from me good evening. +Good evening. + +Present off your aunt and it's er like a, a little baby and you don't like it and you've got to write a thank you letter to her, but you can't tell her that you don't like it, and you can't lie. +Where is it? +It's there love. +Well what's it for then? +I mean, did you invent this story yourself then? +Go on tell dad. +And then you can watch an er erm +Got my Walkman there? +Well not it isn't, it's my own personal one! +Did you invent this story yourself? +Yeah. +But we and there was erm, and there was another one and you'd got to do about erm some, someone gets kidnapped and erm you have to do it, and they ha some somebody finds out and they erm rescue the +Oh! +How are yo , are you listening to that now? +I'd have a job! +I've got nothing in my ears! +Well, what are you la like that for? +Leave that please! +Don't touch it thank you! +This is my own personal stereo Walkman. +Well let me have a go of it! +Well, I don't really, but there you are. +Anyway, put the te erm, television on and go and get your hands washed, you can help me dish the dinner up, and then er , dad's going to the doctors. +Mum, tell me, how does it work? +Well I've got all these tapes, I've got to fill them all, I've got these you see, and it's all to do for market research on how people speak. +See? +On how people speak? +Yes. +On English language. +So is it turned on now? +It is turned on now. +And it is taping every word that I say? +Yes ! +Oh God! +That's just charming! +Well, are you gonna help me dish the dinner up then first? +Tell you what, I'll read you my story. +How's that? +Well I hope they, don't suppose they want to hear your story. +Right. +This is, I've got my from school, it says,I was shopping in town looking at some clothes when, suddenly I got pulled back from one of the, the changing room. +I felt something horrible pressed against my head, talk girly and you're history! +Immediately I knew I was being kidnapped. +The man told me to daughter so that they I was being kidnapped. +I did what he said and walked out the shop with him. +He took me to his flat which was quite high up. +He took my in a room with a table and a pile of paper. +In the +That's , you don't spell daughter like that! +It's D A U G H T E R. +I thought it was a bit short. +the room with a table and pile of paper and a pen. +Also, there was a loaf and a bread a, a loaf of bread and a sink with a glass. +You eat bread, drink water, play with paper ! +And you clean your teeth! +Go and clean your teeth! +Are you sure it is, taping every word you say. +Emma! +You can listen to it later. +I have got +And is it sent is it gonna be sent to you though? +I'll read it to you later. +Go and get, move this! +Have you just bought that? +No. +A lady has. +Why, she gave it to you? +Yes, she comes and collects it in a week's time. +Will you move that! +Mm. +Come and help me dish this dinner up. +Right. +And tell your dad to get ready to go to the doctors please. +I'm going to put this away. +And I'm going to wash my hands. +And er help you do dish dinner up. +Right. +Is dad having his dinner? +No, I shouldn't think he'll have time. +Right. +Dad! +Got to go to the doctors.? +Erm +Quarter to six. +Quarter to six I've gotta go. +Oh sorry! +I thought it was twenty to. +Just get some knife and forks out for me. +Alright then. +You know my essay? +You can, you can win something and then they'll it's something about going to see the Queen! +Oh! +Could, the thing yesterday? +No. +Yes. +Mother's Day. +And Mr I mean Mr says erm if you win it you can get a chance to go and see the Queen and smile at her home and wave. +Mm! +Would you like that? +Yes, it's not bad. +Erm +Rose would like it. +I suppose she would. +Can you stir the gravy up as well please? +Okay. +While I just put these few beans on for dad that we don't like in the microwave. +Is it baked beans? +Mm. +Can't stand them! +Hate them! +Mum! +Mum! +It's recording are you just speaking . +No, I'm speaking normal. +You mustn't. +What's all that? +No, get the er, like wait a minute. +I'll turn the tape you do that. +I'll leave dad's until he comes home from the doctors! +Right, that's mine. +What's the matter with him? +Why's he got to go to the doctors? +For his blood pressure. +Well I think they're ready now. +Not quite. +Will they listen to us saying this then? +Couldn't tell you. +I'll read it to you later and tell you exactly what's happening. +Excuse me please! +Oh sorry! +We'll get the turkey out of the oven. +Turkey? +Well it's it's er what's his name? +Bernard Matthews' turkey roast. +Oh it's looks horrible! +Oh shut up! +I don't know what you do want! +I know what I want. +Be a nice dinner, this will. +I wish you'd never bought this hair band. +You don't like, you, I want you to go and look at your bedroom. +Why have you tidied it? +Yes. +When you've, that gravy's got thick just go and have a look please. +It feels thick. +Right, turn it down to number one. +Better make sure though hadn't I? +Yeah it does, it feels thick. +Let's have a feel? +Right, now turn down to number one. +Go and have a look, quick. +And don't put them all on there! +What's that glue doing on there duck? +This? +Mum, Neighbours is on! +Right! +You can watch Neighbours then. +It's my turn to watch the so that's +Right. +on at seven thirty. +It's for erm lick o the sol the kissing dolls. +Oh! +Do you want it put back in here? +Yeah. +They're ever +so old! +I knocked it off. +I mean, I've had them since Linda was fifteen. +This tastes lovely! +Want a taste? +Go on then. +Beautiful! +Beautings!as Martin would say. +? +Th on the side of the telephone. +They're not. +They're not. +I've just come in, come in with them. +What's the matter? +Mum! +Dad's car keys. +I just come, I thought Where are they? +They've got to be down somewhere duck. +I come in +I'll take the little one. +Take the little one. +They're in, Chris. +When it, just let me grab this cat. +And you can go out in a moment. +Emma. +Just look for dad's car keys, I've put them down somewhere. +Right. +Have you? +Or ha , or did you just leave them here? +No , they're here look. +So he wasn't just saying it. +No! +I've put them down on there. +It's alright. +He's gone. +Well how can well how can go without his keys? +He's got a spare one. +You want to go out for a wee wee puss? +I thought he might have been blaming you like he does, er blame you for moving all his letters when you haven't even touched them! +Emma! +We'll play this back later you know. +Not to dad. +To everybody. +Right! +Le lis +Can we have a listen? +Let the cat out. +Me and you will hear it. +Puss! +Go on. +Oi! +You can go out now. +She doesn't want to go. +Leave her, shut that door. +When she wants to go you don't want to let her but when, when you want to let her in she'll +Well he didn't want her to go +want to go. +while dad was er driving, reversing the car. +Which one, which is mine? +Mm! +Looks alright. +A bit cold but +Well it won't be when you've got your gravy on it. +Gravy warms it up doesn't it? +Course it does. +Please don't get it on your school uniform! +Yes alright. +Yeah, well don't! +Erm have you got the knife and +This meat's horrible! +forks? +Don't talk stupid! +It's salty! +Eat it! +There's no salt on it. +I haven't put any salt on it. +It tastes salty though. +I've got something stuck in my throat. +You alright? +Yeah. +You sure? +But it's not just a cough? +No, it's something stuck in my throat. +Like what? +I don't know. +Oh that's beautiful! +Eat it up Emma. +Is there no more erm that sewing club that you go to on a Wednesday, is it finished? +No. +It was on last night. +Did you forget? +No. +You just didn't want to go? +Mm. +Didn't sh +She wanted to make a finished that bit that I'm on. +They've done and they're on their second thing. +Oh! +So what do you do now then? +Then we go to that every week like sort of like, say erm forgotten it. +So you're not going again? +Try not to. +So that's not fair really when people have put theirselves out. +No, I've said that before. +Yes. +I've told you that. +It's only like eating chicken. +Yes he must be. +What you been doing at Adele's house then? +Writing an essay. +Oh! +What's her story about then? +Same thing as mine. +Pardon? +Same as mine, about a kidnapping. +Only hers is different? +Mm. +It's got to be. +Mm. +We've, we've just been told to write it about either kidnapping or erm about the thing that I told you +Mm. +or about how er +Oh! +Well she sho supposed to be a vegeta vegetarian? +What? +Did Claire come round? +No. +Why not? +No. +It was . +Anyway, I told Adele that what happened was, about what you said to me when I go about sort it out. +I told Jessica not to bother phoning me . +Again? +Again? +I told her not to bother phoning me up. +Why? +Told Jessica not to bother phoning me up. +Oh! +And er, I told Adele that, and I said that erm my mum erm said that I was better off sticking with you, playing with you cos Jessica erm is just between the two like like me. +Right. +And erm she like, just she won't play with me but she doesn't. +And she says she'll try and phone me up, but I reckon she doesn't even er I sa ask her mum. +No. +Is she friends with Gemma then? +Mm. +Like today, er she moved back to erm to er, sitting next to Diana, yesterday she was sitting next to me. +You shouldn't +I hadn't said a word to her and and she she was she didn't talk to me. +Oh. +Where's the erm the tie-backs for the curtains in your bedroom? +Mm? +The tie-backs for the curtains in your bedroom? +Hanging on, erm a hook on the side of my cupboard. +You know, cos I've brought this to stick it on with. +When did you get wet through anyway, at school, was it lunchtime? +I'll show you what, I tell you what's happened when things. +Okay. +I don't really like it anyway. +I like what's on in a bit. +What's that? +Taggart. +What would you like to eat tomorrow night? +Don't know. +Why? +Well I don't know what to do,wha wha what, what have we had this week? +Well I don't know. +I'd like some chicken. +We've had turkey tonight. +We had chicken +That doesn't taste anything like chicken! +It's horrible! +We've got to eat a lot more chicken now the doctor's said that he's got +Have I got a ? +Yeah. +Now the doctor's said he's got to try and lose some weight. +So, chicken's alright? +Plenty of white meat. +Fish, veal, chicken, turkey. +What's your favourite meat? +Chicken. +My favourite white meat is chicken. +And what's your favourite red meat? +Would you say beef? +Don't know. +Lamb. +I don't like lamb a lot. +It's too greasy. +Well he's in a mess! +What's the matter with his face? +I don't know when he, when he was looking for that old chap, I think one of the girls threw something at him hit him in the eye. +Are you eating all that chocolate tonight then? +Just me?today because in because it was in your place I came back from she's got a big scratch book mum and she glued it on and came that close to me it's about there and he threw it at me and there. +Can you see it? +Mm. +What did you say yourself? +Told Mrs , and she goes oh yes, I know and she just walked off! +Who's class is he in? +He's in our class. +Mm. +Do you like Mrs ? +Not really. +What is it that you don't like about her? +She just ignores people! +And she just ignore me. +She perhaps doesn't like people that tell tales. +But why are they tales? +But he did hurt me didn't he? +Yes he did. +It's, it's a bit silly is could have done some damage to your eye. +I know, he could have knocked me in the eye instead of just at the side and it hurts now. +So +You're off I think, February the seventh? +Did you give that piece of paper in today? +All that worry, worrying this morning. +Quick! +Sign that you said! +Have you got the cat? +I'm getting him now. +Have you cleaned your teeth? +Your school bag's in my car you know. +Want that. +Can you take that up then and your school uniform, and go and put that away somewhere. +Are you gonna come and put me to bed or aren't you? +Yes! +I am! +Try and get in the bed like I told you, there's a good girl. +And there's a sock here look. +And there's another one in the lounge. +No. +Yes I will. +Course you will. +Good puss! +Don't worry puss, I'll get it in a minute. +Puss! +Puss! +Have you got your plug in? +What plug? +Where's your +Is it this low? +Have I had it on before? +Yes, you've had that on before. +Mm. +Have you got that +No, your light , where's your light flo oh it's here! +Okay? +I'll do it for you babes. +You got it switched off. +You little monkey! +I know. +Get in. +Get on there. +Sorry! +Ah ah! +I'm sorry! +It's my nails. +You alright? +Let's kiss it better. +Come on. +Lie down. +Now keep it tu tucked in +like that. +Alright? +They're thermal lined, plus a lining you've got +Get changed +on as well. +Let's tuck this in. +Where's my arm? +Tt. +That's my arm you're standing on! +Ni-night! +Night! +God bless. +God bless. +See you in the morning. +See you in the morning. +Does it? +Yeah. +Too early, I think it shuts +I don't know. +Could be something like that +Oh ! +what she's had. +that's washed. +See you love. +Bye. +It's only turned on dad! +Give us a kiss then. +Bye bye! +See you tonight. +Yeah. +Bye bye! +Bye! +Bye bye! +Come on then, let's go then. +At least I haven't got school tomorrow, I'll have a lie in tomorrow so . +Bye! +Bye! +Off again. +There you are. +Emma bring the cat in please. +Right. +Come on then puss! +Ah ya! +Where's that puss? +Have you got your watch on? +No not yet. +Do you know where it is? +Oh it's on there. +Over there, it's there. +Right. +Come on then puss. +Don't forget to take those cheques with you. +Might have them +Dad. +Emma, don't forget these things! +What, my essay? +Yeah. +Right. +Carol. +What do you want dad? +Where's mummy? +Mm? +Mummy? +What do you want her for? +Just want to ask her something. +Go, ask her if those scales have come? +Right. +Mum! +Mum! +Mum! +Mum ! +Mum? +What? +Dad wants to know if those scales have come. +No, tell him. +Right. +If they'd come we'd have had them in the bathroom. +Right. +No, mum said if they'd have come erm, she'd have put them in the bathroom. +Oh. +Alright. +Where have you got to go today? +Just to the office. +Is that all? +You haven't got to go nowhere like Manchester or something? +No, I don't think so. +To Manchester next week. +Oh your hair! +Have fun! +Bye! +Bye. +Coat. +Co co coat, coat, coat, coat, coat, coat, coat. +Coat coat coat, coat coat coat, coat, coat coat, coat, coat, coat, coat! +Turn it off! +Come on! +Well I'm outside waiting for you. +You really ought to have had some gloves you know. +Is that turned on? +Yes it is. +Oh God! +Wish it wasn't. +Right. +Er, have you got a o another glove like that? +In your bag? +No. +Mm! +Well you know if it's going to continue being is that door shut? +Going to continue being cold you sort some gloves out. +Have you got your watch on? +Yeah. +What time is it with your watch? +Erm . +Should be alright then. +Five minutes. +Should just do it in time. +tomorrow. +What? +A lie in? +You that tired? +You've got to do You really ought to put some tights on as well. +Oh. +You know when it all the tights, they're all . +Well I have to wear them don't I? +I don't like them. +It doesn't look like it's going to rain today does it? +It's not going to what? +No it's not going to rain, it's going to be very cold. +What sort of cold ? +Just a cold dry day. +Oh! +You alright microphone? +Got to clip that to something. +Come on. +Make haste. +We've got to get to school. +Don't muck about ! +Oh dear! +Oh look at them! +Come on then, quick! +Get out now love. +What is it today? +You don't know do you? +Got to get you that erm leotard today, I must do that. +Cheek of it! +On a bus like that . +Mrs . +Mrs who? +. +No, I don't know who it was Emma. +What did she do? +She wasn't coming out, she like going, she wears and wears them on her back and then she's just knackered and knackered . +No. +Even in the morning you know just talks about it all the while and then we never get the work actually started or finished. +Cos she he spent nearly all time +Nattering. +talking about it. +I don't like being there do you? +what? +Look. +It's only flashing. +It's just that +It's only flashing. +but it does matter a bit though doesn't it? +Oh yeah. +Right by the pond. +one return. +Thank you. +Well thank you Ian. +How are you, alright? +Yes thanks. +Are you? +Oh not too bad. +I'm gonna see been on nights, I'm tired and +Ah! +Never mind. +When do you finish? +I start, er, finish, well start tonight. +Half five tonight. +So er hope to see the morning through probably stop for a . +And finish. +I finish about ten to one. +It's a long time to be at work. +It's extra money. +Been doing it all week so I might as well get it over all in one week, like. +Mm. +I don't know. +Oh dear ! +I got the tonight I've er I've got erm the baby seat done today sort of like a baby seat in the back so I wait until I get really lumbered like, you know, cos er, if you have the then you can take it back after it's born and er, get a refund on it get all the money back. +Yeah. +Then they were coming back with all the bloody spot checks . +Why? +I think it just has to . +Hello. +How comes your mummy's picking us up? +Why? +How come what? +You're always picking us up. +Well what would you +rather do, catch the bus? +Would you rather go on bus? +Yeah. +What and spend your own money all the time? +You got me +Well it's your money really in't it, to start off with? +Well it's hers really. +You don't have to walk with me, you know, you can walk twenty yards in front if you want then well I'll get the car's right up there, right up top end. +Yeah, but she's only waiting then in't she, outside? +Aye. +She wants me when they've got a club night and +Oh aye. +and she wants money! +This one's alright. +Hello. +You alright? +Eh? +In't there? +No. +They should do it up. +Yeah, they should. +It's a what? +Cos I haven't shaved. +Come on then. +See you Carol. +See you. +Bye! +Hello! +I saw you this morning on erm Churchill Drive, I were working, and you were. +Churchill Drive. +Mm. +Ruddington. +Yeah, I'm opening a shop round Ruddington. +Oh are you? +What is it? +Yeah. +Erm hairdressers. +Oh is it? +What's it called? +Well it isn't at the moment. +It's called the Clothes Peg. +Clothes Peg on the main road? +The ma on the main road. +Yes. +But he's now closing down? +Yeah. +Mm. +Shop's been a smashing shop, you know that has! +I know. +Really lovely! +That's what everybody says. +It's a shame. +Mm. +I've bought some smashing things from them! +It'll be in city whe er th to there is a hairdre all there is is one further down on the corner of Parkin Street. +There is, but they're old fashioned you know. +Where's your er, information then, for us to look at? +I know! +No, I haven't got a ! +Well I want one. +Yeah. +I'll give some. +Yeah. +Will you? +Yeah, definitely. +Yeah. +Erm, no Julie's working with me as well you see, she's coming from London and we're gonna work together. +So +Mm. +Good! +That's if I +Well I've given some, I've not gone all the way round. +I spent about an hour and a half this morning, I thought well it's time to stop. +It's very time consuming though innit? +Yeah. +Cos I'm doing some mobile, well I'm hoping to get some mobile around Ruddington before it opens and so people can see me a bit before. +Yes. +Yeah. +Before. +So Lisa, it's it's going round at the moment with a mobile one, but after that it'll be from the shop . +Mm! +So +Oh good! +Well I hope it all works out alright. +Oh I hope so. +Ha! +Such +Oh! +a lot of bother and trouble and trouble and +Oh I know! +worry isn't it? +Definitely. +Yeah. +As long as everything goes through okay, and tha I don't see why I should have any problems. +No. +Of course, but +Mm. +the bank said yes, and the most important thing +That's it! +That's right. +It's just red tape in't it? +And, and then having it done. +And getting the custom afterwards. +I know! +Oh God! +I hope you do ! +I'll see you anyway. +Okay. +See +Bye! +you. +It's not doing anything. +Is it the right way round? +The light's not on. +Oh, the light +It is! +is on. +Wait a minute then. +Tell me in a bit Emma. +And tell me what else you've been doing at school? +No I can't remember. +Can't remember? +You've been there all day and can't remember! +I know. +Oh, we erm, a graph. +Or . +Ooh! +Tonight, dad's +Mhm. +got to go to the hospital, he's going to see a friend that's had operation and er so he wants to be out at half past six so +Are we going with him? +No. +Right. +It's you're having rice and chicken supreme tonight. +Will you enjoy that? +Do I like it? +Mm. +Have I had it before? +Yes. +And did I like it? +You did. +Think this might need some new batt oh no! +No. +And I've also +I've got batteries in my pocket. +Have you? +All those to , yeah well I told you to put in this morning. +Those two batteries I told you put in your pocket in case the batteries went flat this morning. +Mm. +Did you clean your teeth this morning? +Yes! +I cleaned them with you remember? +Oh yes, I've Have you enjoyed yourself at school? +Yes thank you. +Can't wait till ma erm to sleep in tomorrow. +Ha ! +I think it's this weekend that we go to the fire station. +This Sunday. +A visit around a fire station. +I'll enjoy that! +Mm. +Yeah. +There's a lot of people living in those new houses. +They reckon there's three luxury detached bungalows left, I didn't think they were detached. +They must be further down. +Oh yes, right at the bottom look. +Ah, da da da, da da . +I didn't get out till half past one! +And I had to go to Boots and get these batteries the erm what's it called? +Smoke detector's batteries must be going down cos it's making a funny noise. +Must be flat. +When? +Just save us coming out so I phoned your dad up and I said what batteries do you need? +Do you want any chewing gum? +Have you had it on all day? +No. +So have you been to ? +While I've been to er while I've been shopping I haven't had it on at all. +While you've been at work? +Mm. +While you've been at +It's difficult. +? +Na no. +It's dif it's difficult when you're working because +Cos you're walking around and +Mm. +you think it's going to fall off don't you? +Yeah. +So difficult out of this ruddy road in evening! +Thank you! +How many have you had? +One. +Why? +Just wondered. +Did you go out and play at lunchtime? +Mm? +No jobs then, for anybody? +Oh I see! +I went and tidied Mr 's bookshelf. +Creep! +Me? +Mm. +Well it was that or the cold. +Did they ask you then? +Or did you go and ask, did you say do you want any jobs doing? +Mm. +I started from Mrs says no thank you Emma, Miss , no thank you Emma Miss , no thank you Emma. +And then I +They know your name then do they? +Mm. +Even though you weren't in their class at school? +Mm! +Mm. +I went round all the classes +And Mr said? +Yes? +Tidy my bookshelf for me. +So oo who stopped in with you then? +No one. +Oh! +So you haven't actually played with anybody then? +Well I did when I came out, I played with erm Jackie and Kelly. +But, they had to do monitor today. +And erm Joseph was going to do it today. +Ah! +I mean he's alright but he's rude to the little ones and after you have to take the plates away and scrape all the food off in the bins. +Not very nice +It's horrible! +is it? +No. +But you didn't do it today anyway, so +Yeah. +And you know, I li I like sharing the dinners out, but +It's just the afterwards. +Yeah. +Don't think I'd like that much. +The mess clearing. +Mm. +All the slop and and scrape it all into this bucket with lots of it's like tray you know like that tray that you've got i next to your sink? +Your who bought that there? +The, it's like that. +No ac in actual fact , I'll tell you what that is +Mm. +that's a salad bath. +You wash your salad in there. +It's not, it's not meant to have knife and forks in it. +Oh. +That, round, white plastic thing's +Mm. +for that. +What, and you say put it in and +You know the no th you know when I bought the drainer and the bowl? +Mm. +And there's a like a white plastic thing that a yo the knife and forks and are in there, now. +Oh that? +Mm. +That round thing? +Yes. +You're supposed to put salad in that? +No. +Your salad goes in the other square thing that belongs to the sink. +That's not meant to have knife and forks in. +Now do you understand? +I think so. +Good! +And it's like that apart from it hasn't got holes in bottom. +Mm. +And you scrape it all up. +Mm. +And it's, even worse with the pudding when it's got custard! +You have to pour the custard on, and the they ask for more custard so you pour more custard on and you could just leave it. +Adele's house! +Please. +Oh! +Oh! +Now stop here and you're going to have to cross the road. +Alright. +Go on. +And I'll watch you. +Half past five. +Watch the +I know. +door. +Bye bye! +Okay. +See you in a bit. +I'll see if they're in first. +Alright then. +Bye bye! +Bye! +Got to go, yeah? +There she is look! +Oh yes. +Can, can she come round to our house, because +No! +Because your dad's gotta ge ready to go out. +But I want to watch Witches as well. +And if I don't +Alright. +watch it now. +Just going round to your house. +Erm have you just got here? +Mm yes. +Let me move this car because they want to get in. +What you doing? +Coming round to my house? +Or stopping there? +Come to my house and want to watch +Come on! +Cos they want to get in. +Shut the door please! +Shut the door! +Shut the door! +And do it for . +Yeah, right. +I would prefer it if you did and because I'd be very pleased erm if she did. +Mm. +That's why I said to get ma ba , get you back then. +Cos only I'd stop because of you. +Why? +Mm. +So I can get of you. +And get you! +Disgusting ! +Otherwise it's a slip switch so if you put it in, if I put it in my bag and it switches on and someone else so the the batteries will waste. +Er. +Turn it on then. +No. +Is it over? +I've gotta get you on . +Don't pull my belt or my badge! +Actually I better take this up. +Right! +Hang on! +Hang on! +Hang on! +Okay then. +No, get off! +Get off a minute. +I wanna take my badge because otherwise if you pull it it'll rip my jeans. +Ooh! +Ah! +It sounds like to get me downstairs! +Right, only got me down cos I was tired, I told you. +Ah! +Well you found me! +Ya ! +You're my horsey! +Horsey ! +Ow! +Lie down. +Chuck a chuck a chuck chuck! +Ee ee! +Go on then. +No cos I will help you. +Oh well it's my turn on you now. +Okay. +Aha. +Yes, I'll climb on top of you, I'm on top of you! +And you're not allowed to kick! +Ah! +Horsey! +Horsey! +Horsey! +Ya! +Don't work with me. +Doesn't it? +Ee! +No. +What do you do? +Just that? +Ah! +No cos that'll work. +Tha all you can do is put your belly up and I'll go flying! +Yeah! +Go on then, put your belly up! +Gung! +Ah ah ah! +Don't that hurts. +Wom! +Um! +Tickle tickle! +Shh! +Adele get up! +Cracking up! +Emma! +Get dressed now, there's a good girl. +Ah! +Come on, cos I've to go out. +Emma! +Emma! +Hang on. +Go on then please, now! +Stop screaming! +Er +Go and get dressed! +And put that Home and Away game a away +Mm. +please. +Tick tick tick tick tick tick tick! +And give me . +No! +No ! +Go on then, go and get dressed. +Ha! +Ha! +Delly welly! +Yeah? +Get that shifted! +No way! +Mum ! +Hey! +Now stop that! +Go +That's silly! +Go and get +go and get dressed! +Thank you! +Did you like your ride on the thing? +Yes I did. +Did you? +I wish they'd have gone a bit faster. +Is that how fast they goes? +Mm. +They don't go any faster than that. +So are you sitting in the front or at the back? +Erm, sit in the back. +Right, I'll sit in the front then. +Ooh! +I'll lock these gates as well. +I know! +Ah ! +Right are we all ready then? +It's not shut. +Oh! +You see the thing is you can record and listen to yourself speaking at the same time? +Did you lock the back door? +Yes I did. +Chris? +Yes? +Do you know that? +Yeah. +What, as it's recording it comes through here? +Yeah. +Is it on now? +Yeah. +What you on? +Recording. +Well wha well isn't somebody going to say anything other than me? +I'm having a conversation with myself. +What do you want me to say? +Well discuss what we did this morning? +What did you think about it then Emma? +Why? +Fire station. +Fire station! +A bit boring . +Oh oh! +Ha! +That's one way . +I like, the things tha the thing that I liked best was the ride in the fire brigade thingie. +Fire,fire engine . +Fire engine. +The what? +Fire brigade thingie! +That's a fire engine, that thing. +Ooh it's lovely warm sort of here. +Sure you don't need it? +Yes. +She's conked out hasn't she? +They're just changing places. +At the +Aha. +traffic lights . +Well that's different +It's different +anyway. +Eh? +Different! +Silly isn't it? +What was your views on the fire station? +I enjoyed it! +I did. +It was smashing!really two of them, I'm glad that we all went. +Are you warm now? +Where are we flying from when we go to Lanzarote ? +Birmingham. +Birmingham ! +Birmingham ! +Are you feeling a lot better today, just there? +You do don't you? +Yeah. +Good! +Mm. +How long has er Co-op's never been in erm +It was there last time I went through there. +Well it must have been in the evening cos it was shut. +Yeah it was. +I says to you it was shut. +You told me , I remember now. +how to be ta er the wheels on that fire engine it had got the registration , had you noticed? +No. +? +No. +No. +We'll see. +Don't worry. +I'll try and get the best for you babes. +Well, we're having a nice proper dinner. +Oh, see what . +Not so cold, is it today? +No. +It's a bit cold travelling about to +Well it's on that +the station. +stone floor you see. +That didn't help. +I must remember to tape that er wa Waller Birds is it? +Yes, I want to see that . +I taped it mainly for you. +it says a mini-series. +No. +Be on twice I should imagine. +It's what they mean by a mini- series. +You mean it's, two episodes is it? +Two episodes. +Wha did you see it? +No? +I thought to myself when it was erm, advertised on television, I thought I'll tape that I bet I know well you'll be interested in that. +No, I thought it was a bit boring at first. +Slow. +But it was good. +Some I taped of that. +More interesting when you've been there as well int it? +We oh well yes! +Realizing that. +And you don't think about it. +No you don't. +What have you told him? +Ah? +to protect him! +So they don't bother having scarecrows this time of year cos they don't see in don't put anything in the ground! +But I thought it was just wo you know, just been left somewhere. +Perhaps what we heard then int it? +Oh ! +Accident here. +Always on this bit of road. +It's only just happened. +Yeah, I'd say, remember when we got out the car I said, I can hear that, dee da, dee da's! +That erm,am er fire brigade, that was the station that we went to this morning, they are called fire and rescue. +Did you, did you hear? +I know. +Did you tie them properly? +Just tie them how I did it Emma. +Two, tt, is that all? +Each! +Yeah. +and he's through there. +Ah? +They shouldn't do it on er, visibility's not very good either is it? +They got there didn't they? +Yes. +Somebody must have been overtaking . +It's put the other way, I don't like that. +It were that white car by the looks of i the way they're positioned in the road. +Yeah. +Because the other one was +It's on the right side of the road +On the right side of the road. +are out look. +That white car was overtaking wasn't he? +Oh is it the one? +Yeah. +Can you imagine what speed they were going at? +So we've got the, I mean it was concertinaed through the bonnet. +I don't know about that anyway. +It's just best driving at I can see it now. +Oh we're back up again! +The place is lovely int it! +Ooh er! +Ooh! +Erm they said Radcliffe didn't they? +Said hundred mile radius. +They did say Radcliffe if you remember. +Well keep an open. +Hundred mile sa square mile radius she said. +Not a square mile no, but +Well it said here, it said Clifton and Radcliffe and er er, what did you say? +Zouch +Yeah. +That's what she said. +Which is up here. +Yeah. +So would he come up here at all? +This was . +Yeah, they've they've come to this road once +Mm. +This is . +Er +What was his name that bloke who you were mates with? +Richard . +Oh said Dick. +Yeah, that's what they call him, Dick don't they? +Yes. +Take some back. +How did you know his name was Richard ? +Cos he told me. +And I've remembered his name cos I kept thinking of Charles . +You know who Charles is don't you? +I don't think +He's an actor. +Oh! +Where did you say that went? +Where was I? +Was I taking Emma's photograph? +What's that? +When I was on about my dad being at +Yeah , when you went down and took Emma's photo. +You didn't see him did you Dad? +I did. +How? +When he was holding that boat. +When you got your shoes. +Yeah but did that man ? +Yes. +As well. +From your front though. +I didn't want to get in the way. +Oh! +See, so he said wouldn't like one taken, taken from +Did he take it with you on it as well? +No. +I wasn't really bothered. +Just glad I've got one taken fire engine. +For Dennis. +It was good of them for them all to come out and do all them drills. +I didn't expect that did you? +Probably have to do the them drills anyway. +Yeah but it's +They do that anyway Carol. +wait for us to get there. +Yeah. +Everybody watched the other two, I ask him you know he went into the bus? +Yeah. +And some of us some of us +Yes he was. +I said to him, how often do you do these drills? +He says, you're meant to drill on every watch. +Every watch that comes on has to do a drill. +Yeah, cos then I didn't actually meet him that's in charge of it all. +You know like that dark haired er, man on, him that's the er +Yeah , I know Ah? +Yeah. +Him that sort the er in, in the green +Who was that other fella, was he the deputy someone or something? +Yes. +I know. +Him that's up on er in the office on his own. +Station officer. +Station officer, that was it. +Couldn't think of the word! +I wondered why the never steamed up. +Yeah. +But what makes made me laugh so much was the fact that they cos their clothes they've got are always the biggest, mind you, it'd fit anybody, it's alright +Yes. +you got to think that way haven't you? +Anyway, that's public. +That's right he was the newest one. +It is. +And that's why that's why he was woke up ! +I know. +No. +You got your lights on? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Cos I've started my descent. +Try to er Dad went to the Donnington Thistle Hotel! +At th you know at the side of the airport where you said ooh and they've even got a swimming pool! +It's ever so nice in there Emma! +I went there, I had to go there this week for work. +You know when you go in the car park you have to get a token to get out. +Do you? +So when I parked my car I said to them I forgot how much it was in there, twenty pounds in the hotel as you're not a guest they give them in reception. +I said well it's alright cos I went to this er presentation there. +What to stay? +And she said yeah. +Anyway, when I went to go I had to go to the desk give you a token, this token lifts the barrier up. +I suppose for people who put the +Put and cars in there, I mean cars in there ain't there? +Yeah. +Look at them ! +Why? +I should think they in case you wouldn't have been there would they? +I don't know. +I mean yesterday morning or every day. +Mm. +Plants, er the shrubs in there for . +Yeah. +What's the matter? +Doesn't like the laces in those trainers. +What's wrong with them? +They're far too long ! +What's wrong with them? +I think ought to cut them out. +Erm I know you brought it with you Chris, so it must +Something +is it in the back? +Paper? +Paper? +It helps to read it. +Did I put down Emma, in the back? +No, it's there. +It's alright. +That's okay. +It's alright. +I've got it. +Put it down and put my belt and it's er but er, load of fog coming down there. +Pardon? +The fog's coming down. +Th it will be more so round here though because it's all open. +Can you turn the heating down? +Turn the heating down a bit? +Ah. +Only a minute ago you were cold! +What's wrong? +Yeah, I like it when my legs burn! +It's boiling! +I put it up cos you said you was cold. +Are your feet nice and warm now? +Yeah, just a little bit. +We are now approaching East Midlands airport. +Weather outside is rather cloudy. +Rather. +It's very low there. +It's only six degrees centigrade. +Minus one! +Flipping heck! +We must get the far better weather . +Mm. +No I don't think I'd ever want to go back to Tunisia again would you? +I do +But +but you didn't like it much did you? +No. +Hey? +No. +But +If I went back I'd go to er, I probably go to Sousse or somewhere like that. +Pardon Emma? +Didn't you like it in Tunisia? +Er +I felt a bit intimidating and +Very much so. +I don't like the people's attitude Emma. +I know they can't help it, it's their way of living but +Their culture. +er, unfortunately er they made me feel very uncomfortable. +And it's not just me that +That's Donnington Thistle Emma. +There. +You didn't go in the pool though did you dad? +No. +they're all up today. +Mm. +Did you stop the night there? +No! +Ha! +Tt! +Need a nightie surely! +Carry on mum. +I don't know. +That car's always here. +Must be a person that works on the +On the gates. +gate. +That's Joan innit? +Thank you. +Is it one where you have to keep it with you? +No. +You pay it when you get back out there. +Er no , but one of them collected these ones. +No, it's at ta Birmingham that is. +I know there's one where you used to have to keep it. +It's +Watch it! +There's a car coming! +Over the bridge, what's this? +She's got something stuck up her bo bottom. +Yeah. +She's got somebody stuck up her bottom. +What's the matter? +You know what. +We +Four add four and then +Four add four equals eight. +Two times four equals eight, right? +Yeah, like that. +And then two +And two times four is eight. +Erm I didn't write it like that then. +Right. +Share the total of fives +Yeah, I done, yeah I done +Er +Five, five, five is fifteen. +Five add five add five +Erm is fifteen. +and then erm . +Right. +Is fifteen. +And then +And sixes +Sixes six +si +add six add six +add six +add six +is thirty six. +Right. +Six times six is thirty +I've done that one. +sixes. +That's it. +Okay? +Erm this. +I'll leave that out. +Leave that out. +Add them up. +Mm. +That much closer can use those pictures. +Take a look. +Are they near the box? +Yeah. +Is that right? +Four +Four is twenty! +So it's four so +Four times five is +Twenty! +Four times five equal twenty. +Er two times six equals twelve. +Er four times three equal twelve. +Er, two additions left. +Alright. +Those two add? +So it's like one, two, one, two and one there and but put like erm seven add seven add seven is . +Is twenty one. +Yeah. +Seven add seven add seven is twenty one +One. +And three times seven +Right. +is twenty one and do it that way, five and fives. +Okay? +Two addition questions. +Hang on. +Two ad yeah but you've got right two multiple and two addition equations. +Not equations! +You told us this! +But i thi , like these, these are equations. +So two addition equations er three times se seven plus seven plus seven is twenty one. +Right? +Oh! +A so, but you can also go +Yeah. +Yeah add three. +Three plus three plus three plus three plus three plus three is twenty one. +Do it that way on. +Do you follow +Yeah. +me? +Yes I do. +Right. +Two multiplication +Yeah. +and two addition. +Two addition. +Right. +So you, like, you . +Yes, that's right. +Then, it's like erm +One. +seven times three, and three times seven. +And three times seven. +That's right. +And you do the same there. +Same on the adds. +And then, this we do like +Right, she wants currency in two divisions in each, right? +So it's one, two, three, four,fi +That multiplication is a +yeah well divisions, okay, so it's twenty one shared by say, if that's one, two, three, four, five, six int it? +Oh I know what I've got! +Six times three is eighteen or three times six is eighteen. +I know what I've done. +I've put the, I thought it was er okay. +Six. +And division is shared by. +So you got to do eighteen shared by six is three and eighteen +Have you got +shared by three is six. +So like, you go one, two, three, four, five, six six times you swap +Three. +six times three +times three is eighteen +is three times six. +Six. +Yeah, and and you got +Six times three and three times six. +A and division is eighteen shared by three is six, and eighteen shared by six is three! +Yeah? +Got it? +I cannot read . +Three sixes are eighteen! +You got it? +And you do the same there? +Hang on! +I haven't finished thirty three +one yet. +That's what I don't get. +Why do multiplication equation for this similar line I don't a get how you do that? +Is it, would you like us to put +It's fours int it? +It's fours +No two, four, six, eight, ten, twelve +Yeah. +It +That's twos. +No, but it's going to fours look. +It's going to fours. +Alright. +Going into fours. +What would I put? +Er one four is four, two fours are eight, and thre three fours is twelve. +As this is been shared by lines int it? +Yeah and it's on that one. +You do it like that do you? +Yeah, cos it's being shared by +Oh! +So it's, I would say that is er nine times four equals thirty six. +And on that one is er, sixty three shared by nine six time sixty three divided by nine +four. +No! +Sixty three divided by nine is six! +Write six through it. +Ten six innit? +No, it's ten sixes. +No, no wait a minute. +Nines. +What should nine times ten Emma? +One nine is nine, two nines are eighteen, three nines are +Twenty seven. +Four nines are thirty six, five nines are forty five, six nines fifty four, seven nine are sixty three. +Oh thank you. +Right. +Yeah, seven nines are sixty three. +Hang on a minute! +Six nines are +seven nines are sixty three. +Hang on a minute! +Seven +Seven nines are sixty three! +Sixty three. +Yeah. +You work them out like that look. +Yeah. +Well seven nines, well ee er, it takes you so long +Look one , one nine is nine +Yeah. +Two nines are eighteen. +So that one there is sixes into si thirty six. +I know! +But I still don't get what you have to write! +Well multiplication equation for this number line I would say is er I've already told you that. +No, but I don't know what I have to, I have to write! +Eight times four equals thirty six. +Don't get it. +Because it's one, two, three, four, five, six, seven eight, no sorry, nine times four is thirty six. +Nine times four equals thirty six. +Like this look! +Write it out on a piece of paper and you'll and I'll write them down. +No! +You do it yourself! +I've told you what to do. +You do it like that. +I don't get it though! +I'll tell you if it's right. +I'm just writing the answers out for you! +I told you what to do. +That's lazy! +Int it? +You crafty cow! +If I give you a bit of paper and the lot, yeah well you know what to do and go to school and fill them in! +Couldn't it ? +No! +Hey? +Right. +Your dinner's ready now. +She says to me I've explained to her how to do it and she says yo I'll give you a bit of paper you just write down the answers ! +I know. +You know what she's gonna do go to school and put them down! +Crafty little sod she is ! +I'll only with them. +Is he getting up? +Yeah. +I asked you to move this lot, and you didn't! +I wish we were on ! +Get there. +Went I'm caught in the moment. +I've got . +Look mind baby Leigh! +Just leave him a minute! +There's no real trouble. +I think our mm? +Look just watch her, she's going to tell you how to record and you can see. +Can't see yet. +Ooh! +Cor! +I was in deep sleep! +Right, triangle times nine over for thirty six. +Thirty six. +Shared by nine is have to work out what it is. +Go on then. +I don't know if they're right though. +Where is it darling? +I've got to put a film in. +This? +Yeah. +Cor! +Four nines are thirty six. +There you are look. +But you see there's enough! +Oh yes I know. +It's a as I say, it's all part of a times table. +That's +all you've got to remember. +Well I am trying. +Right four is forty, eighty six. +And thirty six shared by nine is four. +Emma. +And I've asked you to do something and you've done neither! +This is more important than anything! +Move that! +And move those bits in! +It means that I have to do it! +We can do it. +And eat that breakfast before it gets cold! +And I'm going to do my shoes on and with that cos this carpet's still damp. +That'll do. +I want some lipstick. +Where's my I'm putting my lipstick on while I'm waiting for that to take. +Where's he gone? +You're alright for time aren't you? +I suppose so. +And I forgot to put my earrings on! +It's ju it's melting my more than it is yours. +What? +I know. +Expect you to sulk. +It's just up there on top of this. +Haven't got the key to go round there once so, I'll put that on and I've got a nightie. +The tapes. +It's on there. +All you can ever hear, at home on weekends is television ! +Turn that light out for me please? +I'll just finish what I'm doing. +I want you to brush your hair +When +and then go and find the library books. +I'll move these. +Are you going to brush your hair? +I will do now . +Oh aye. +Can you take these bobble in please? +Oh yeah. +They'll only get lost in mine. +Look, if you put it somewhere sensible like on the side of the mirror. +You'll never guess what stupid thing she did today? +She sat in +Go on then +front of me and she burnt, she's burnt her toe you know on that fire! +That's her affair. +All crusty! +Silly little cat! +On her tail. +Did she? +Yeah, she burnt it! +On there! +? +Yeah. +Wha well what? +You know like on the carpet there there is +Er a letter from er that deaf society asking whether to join up . +So that's er,. +Well I shan't get it in there. +Right here where it's gone +Stop touching! +black. +Yes. +Okay, that's her fault. +Silly little cat! +I know. +That's all +have got fifty two and a half here! +Yeah. +You checked them for me didn't you? +Perhaps we'll end up paying out in it. +Well there you, that stuff! +Oh I see. +Mm. +Oh I'll +Are you going to do my hair before you leave? +Yes, one minute Emma! +Well you can go up and ask them? +I will do now, so . +I used to love doing this. +I know dear! +I thought they might have a check before you go. +Have you got to take anybody with you Chris? +Like, you know +Me. +Except dad if he'll come. +What's it for? +Gay people. +Oh God! +Pardon. +Gay people it is. +Right! +Come along, let's look at you then! +Right, what I want you to do, I want you put it up like that +Yes. +with that in the clip and I want you to get it curly. +Curly with that mousse. +I can't help being curly. +First of all you want it straight, then you want it curly! +I know. +You'll never know ! +Turn round. +Just got some sandwiches to do. +I want to try and get out a bit earlier today. +Mm. +I'm sorry, but it's damp. +Got mousse on it haven't you? +Yeah. +It won't go curly? +It's so difficult to get the brush through without hurting I think. +Sick of this cough! +It's ? +No. +Do you think this'll hold? +Yes! +Which way round does it go? +Tt. +Is this mine? +Stop tutting! +Tt! +Keep still. +It doesn't look very nice straight held together like that. +Doesn't it? +If you have it curly like +Right, go and get the mousse then. +Makes a change to actually pick +Oh I love them! +tomatoes. +Mm. +I mean it's not fattening any of them. +No. +Dad can you get me some? +Turn round to me. +Turn round to me. +Have you got your mouse? +Have they? +Yeah. +What is it, mousse? +Mousse. +Mouse? +The cat's alright this morning though. +Yeah. +I couldn't believe it! +Like a different person. +She's been flying round! +She wasn't well was she? +No. +No you can tell because she sits there and +She's back in the +She just lies flat, when she's not well. +Sprawled and going to sleep. +She does that anyway! +Yeah, but not in front of fire. +No. +She wants to observe when she's fit. +Come here. +Turn round. +When she's not well it's +She wants to slop back . +Yeah. +Is that what everybody else says? +She's a slob. +When she's not well +Well +she's laid down in front of that fire with her tummy warming through. +Poser you! +Who? +What? +Everywhere it moves. +You alright? +Mm! +Go on then. +Go and have a look. +Do you want a hair grip? +Couldn't get up this morning. +Do you want +Mm. +a hair grip? +You're not the only one. +Yes please. +Does that mean you're going back then? +Yeah. +It looks alright. +It's not all that curly. +Not how I want it! +It won't get any curlier. +Sorry! +It looks bad! +It doesn't, it looks per +It does! +It looks bad! +Chris! +on top! +Listen to me! +Listen! +No! +I don't like it! +What's the matter with her hair? +I don't like it! +Go up in your bedroom +Eh! +Now listen! +You know if you make me late Emma, I'm gonna smack your bottom! +I'm sick of it every morning! +Go and do your biscuits! +Starting again! +Oh bloody hell! +But she always ! +There's nothing the matter with your hair! +Urgh ! +Where's your lunch box Chris? +It's left in the boot. +Oh well I'll have to give you another one. +You get it out if you want. +No, I haven't got time. +I I meant yesterday but you see, cos you gave me a bag yesterday and I've meant to bring it today, I forgot it. +Cos I was busting to poo! +Don't you remember? +I know! +Leave it on. +We're finished. +Right, I'll go and do my hair. +You going to take these with you? +Do you need the information available for that number on Wednesdays +Yes I know dear. +and we, you're not gonna have any Tuesday. +No. +Emma! +What? +Can you open your curtains,at the windows. +Right. +Well that's this week's int it? +Beg your pardon? +Beg your pardon? +It's for reference, he's not put any reference on this side has he? +Your keeping reference, should be on. +I know. +Tt. +But it's not on. +The only other one. +Yeah. +So got the other one? +I don't know. +I haven't got time to look. +I'll have to have a look at it later. +Don't ring up off this one. +Ab +No. +And have you washed your face and cleaned your teeth? +Yes I have. +Right, the bathroom is all yours dear. +Ah dear ! +What a rush in the morning! +Oh dear ! +I'll put these on here and this, and I've described it fully. +Oh dear! +I can't believe it's Thursday again! +Gone that quick! +Don't you think so? +No. +You don't put everything in the bowl. +Gonna put the chicken in there, still wrapped like in cold water. +Want it to thaw out properly for tonight. +And just pop that in the sink. +Will you? +Aye. +Alright then! +Give me a kiss then! +Can't do it now really. +I'm not asking you to. +What's up? +Tell her, tell her to come on now! +Come on there! +Getting my bag out. +Right, what do you want for your dinner? +Well, I've got to look. +What do you suggest? +I don't know. +Tt. +Well shall we do that form first? +Yeah. +Got a pen? +Oh yeah! +Come on then. +Then we'll sort out the +Here, sit here. +Sit here! +It's chocolate . +He's got no knickers on! +I'll get it off and sent Carol. +Yes, that's right. +We've got +Get it out the way. +a second class up there. +Yeah I know there is. +I'll post it tonight. +Once it's on it's way it's done. +Yeah, I've got to go out tonight. +Again! +How does it go? +Yeah, you ought to watch it when you go hadn't you? +Well I can try and work something comes, they all bash into me. +Hey! +Right you've got you ne , I won't touch anything cos you know I've been . +That's, that's, that's that is +And stop! +flying in. +It's great you know! +Look! +Mm. +Look! +That's yesterday's takings. +Right. +Tell me what to put then. +Er put the other side first. +This side first? +Oh no that's +No, it's that side first then. +Over there, it says about reference. +Please quote our reference whenever you contact us. +I imagine that must be the reference there. +Won't it? +Yes. +That one. +One six? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yes, here. +One six, stroke +P F +P F +three nine five +three nine five +five eight, stroke nine one. +stroke nine one. +Aha. +And today's date is the seventeen of the first, ninety two. +That's alright. +Right that's it for you, they did one six stroke P F three nine five five eight stroke nine one. +Yes. +Insured policy number. +So it's H +P +P +Baked beans! +one six seven O four O eight nine. +Name of insured is you. +First. +Do you have to put that? +Mm. +Oh! +I that's in case you've got one then is it? +It's nothing to do with work? +Well no. +Don't need that then. +Just leave that. +Say +The addresses were as above. +Just put as above? +Yeah. +Oh! +Aha. +When one do you reckon? +a I don't know, what do you think? +First notice it? +Er +When did they have it done? +They've had it done about O October time cos I asked him just before we went away. +Can't we put, cos it didn't come up straight away Chris. +Yeah , I know. +They had it done Se +Yeah. +in October did we? +Yes. +Before we went away where? +To, Tunisia. +Ah! +Was it? +Yeah. +So can we put +Well we didn't, we come back well yo we didn't come back till December! +No, we went away we'd had before we went? +Yes we did. +And I mentioned it to you. +Went on the seventeenth of November. +Yeah. +So, shall we put about the fifth er fifteenth? +Don't really matter does it? +Put +Yeah. +Well, the fifteenth of the eleventh or something like that. +No? +Er, fifteenth of the eleventh, ninety one? +Here? +Yeah. +Fifteenth of the eleventh ninety one. +For the +public one. +About sort of A double P and R L X in brackets. +Cause of +Aha. +loss or damage for all the details to be given in a er, immediately . +Er mind you, we had the house decorated. +We had +The house or +Hang on. +the house decorated. +Mhm. +It's enough? +Had the house decorated, and all over the wall. +Mm. +Cor! +Not like that! +You wanna oh, well well not what no any +You got that oh any! +Not so bad in there. +Right! +Couple of walls black ash showing through. +Shown through? +S H +I know! +I'm just thinking. +to be a it's H O . +Yes. +I know, but I wondered if that standed for that. +Showing through the vinyl paper. +That's it. +Tha V I N Y L? +Yeah. +Er are there are any other persons interested in the property? +Got nothing to do with that really. +Yes. +Yes. +You've got to put that! +Have you? +Yes. +Er,ta what do you put? +Yes. +Oh yes! +Cos it's the building society. +Right. +Britannia. +Britannia. +B R I think this is how you spell Britannia. +Just look, look. +B R I T +A double N, I A. +I've missed the I out. +B R I T A double N, I A. +Alright? +Do you want building +Yeah. +society there? +You better put that, yeah. +And the what did you say? +So I cross +No, no, just leave it! +No! +E G, you write it, yes, but after it's . +G A G E. +Right. +State the interest of the insurer E G Ian ! +I know. +What a funny name. +It is int it? +Mortgage. +Are there erm, insurances in force covering the property, say if it caught fire, etcetera? +Any other insurances? +Yeah. +Not on that. +Oh that's alright. +Yeah, Britannia building card. +Card? +Guard? +I can't do everything properly you know! +Name and address of other insurers? +Bit skew-whiff there though innit? +Should have put yes there. +To what? +Where you put that. +Where have I put +Yes. +Instead of saying yes, but then you put the name and address underneath. +Here? +Yeah. +Does it matter? +Put +Well +it there then. +Making a good job of this! +You're alright. +What's that say on here? +Building. +Er just put our, this address there. +Yes, that's what I thought. +Head office. +Head office. +I'll put it underneath. +House. +At Leek +Staffs. +And just let me put the postcode in, what is it? +Right? +There. +Say yes to that. +Er, on here? +Yes. +Say yes to that. +Alright? +Mm. +Any indadit additional information? +There isn't. +No. +Just put down er, I've claimed. +How much is it? +The total. +Just here? +Yeah. +One, two, three? +Yeah. +Yeah. +That is it then? +Flipping heck! +You listen to that. +I know. +That's it int it? +That's it. +So who si you sign it. +No you can sign it, right. +Here you are! +Take this off down the road. +Do you want me to get you one? +I'll get one from up there. +So you can put that lot away. +Give me a couple of second. +Just write in here Carol, this bit, er one minute! +There,so I'll save this. +Which one look? +This one. +Mm. +Er six rolls of paper. +I think that would be it wouldn't it. +Yep. +Got the envelope there. +Now I'll go and sort out what we want. +Get this away. +Just put it away ? +Yes, definitely put it away. +You done my envelope? +No, because I didn't know what the +Oh! +address was you see +Aye. +didn't really want to get it wrong. +Street. +Right, lean on the paper again. +Right. +Where's the where's the claim form what's going in? +Erm +It has . +So it, it reads, that, that +and that. +Don't bother putting trees and fruit trees. +Oh no! +Are you going to put that away now? +I'll put it away when you done with that. +Alright then. +Cos I want something else +Is that all on one line? +I just put it underneath. +That's what I thought. +Whoops! +It's a long address isn't it? +Here we are. +Sit down please. +I'll sort this out. +What? +Oh! +Have you called your work today? +No. +I just popped up, Terry was there. +Oh! +So it must be missing it bad then? +Yeah, I'm taking them things, they always +They always help you don't they? +Yeah. +It's fluid. +I know. +It's like mine. +I'll be glad when that Ottoman comes so I can get rid of all that stuff. +Chris? +Yeah? +What? +I've got to out tonight, as I said. +So what do you want I'll go and have a look see what we've got. +You got a stamp love? +Yes! +There we are. +Put it there, stick us on a stamp. +Oh I bet it's it's we all have and trying to look , not worth have it done is it ? +popular again. +Yeah. +I'll turn this off now and get on with the dinner. + +It's running. +And I've placed it in a strategic position. +Where it can pick up everybody's conversation. +Yeah. +Right? +But er +You're not supposed to s +What? +This is when you go dumb. +No, you don't have to worry about that. +We +No, I say you don't, you do. +You go dumb when you er when they switch on a +I think it ought to be made clear that the the voices that you can hear, or will be hearing in the next half an hour or so will be that of the television. +Yeah well that's a fact of life. +She she has to make out a form, with erm what was happening at the time and everything. +The duration and all that type of . +But so far she's managed to record five minutes of conversation between me and her. +So and she's got twenty tapes C nineties to do . +What was this tape? +It wasn't bedroom er ? +No no this was just +just some conversation we had during the day. +Oh. +But if I can leave it running and it runs out it will suit me down to the ground. +There you go Dennis. +Eyes down for a full house. +Cocked that up properly. +That's Loretta Swit. +Have to get your eye in won't you, on this? +Yeah. +that one. +Well I couldn't go to the bottom of the table because of the Eeeuk! +Bit like pot black really isn't it? +Clink +Yeah. +clink clink. conversation off this. +Oh dear +Ooh, +Oh I'm sorry. +I didn't realize you . +Erm, I broke so you . +Yeeuk. +That's all they'll get isn't it? +That's all they're gonna here, eeeuk. +Oh well, that's broken the duck anyway. +There was too much power on that one. +I definitely haven't got the action . +Definitely erm what I was trying to do was not do what I've been doing which is to jerk . +Yeah. +What are you making? +Thing is I had some wool and I had the thing. +And I tried to do a pattern but it sent all my eyes crazy counting these +Yeah. +holes. +So I'm just erm +mixing up the colours that will go. +? +Yeah. +Choice Almost. +Not good enough though. +Put it up then. +Oh yeah. +Yeeeuk. +Pink. +Mark it. +Mm +Probably happy with that Dennis. +You got one didn't you? +Don't think they're getting their value for money off this tape. +What do you reckon? +Do you want a tea or a coffee? +Sorry? +Do you want a tea or a coffee? +Cup of tea please. +I've just been filling in my books and reading all about it. +I rang mum up. +Mm? +And said to her about erm putting the kids to bed. +Mm. +And said we'll try and get something sorted out before you babysit on the nineteenth. +I said we didn't do too bad. +I said Ben was wet but I didn't, his bed wasn't, so god knows +Is it a marketing exercise for the Sony Walkman really? +Sorry? +Is it a marketing exercise for this? +I don't know. +Oh I've just been listening to your conversation with Dennis and Iris. +Yeah? +Was it any good? +Mm clank, click pheew clank click . +I couldn't understand what you you were saying to Iris though. +Couldn't you? +No. +Oh well +Well you, all I heard was something about her sorting out some wool and +She was doing a tapestry thing. +I'm a little bit erm concerned with our Darrell. +Yeah oh I think he's just peed off with his father. +or +Yeah but it just st strikes me he's losing perspective of who's doing what for who. +I appreciate that the long term we gain as far as that property, yeah? +Yeah. +But the short term, he is not making us rich is he? +Not by doing it the speed he's doing it. +If he'd have taken his time and he'd have got himself some more work yeah? +Yeah. +Well I think he, it's just Friday night and he's coming up here tomorrow morning. +Is he, why? +Oh, I just said do we see you over the weekend +Mm. +and he says he's coming up tomorrow morning and erm but he's got places to go and people, you know how he says it, places to go people to see tomorrow afternoon and Sunday. +I asked him if he was going on his boat and he said no. +No, he's put it in his winter mooring hasn't he? +No idea. +Fair weather sailor Jim. +Despite all the rum bum baccy stuff. +I think it's just Friday night and he's yeah, basically. +I don't think Billy's telling him enough to be honest. +Why? +I just don't. +What, he knows something's happened . +But he doesn't know what it is. +He doesn't seem to be involved in that many discussions about the company does he? +Or what's happening. +I mean he was moaning about erm or those trade accounts weren't he? +Mm. +well it's not for me to say. +I don't know anything more about this business than he does. +Oh no. +go as far as to say we probably know less about what's going on than he does. +Do we? +Oh. +Such is life. +I had a word with Steph on the phone. +Oh? +She's getting fat. +Yeah. +She goes to hospital on Thursday. +Eighteen week appointment. +She's had another scan. +Got to work on Sunday. +They're gonna work from nine thirty till four thirty this Sunday. +Mm. +And then every Sunday up to Christmas. +And if the trading's good enough they're gonna carry it on. +So how that will go with the Sun Sunday laws I don't know. +I'm waiting for Tesco's to foreclose on what they said they were gonna do. +And what's that then? +Well they're supposed to be opening on Sundays but didn't Texas and all those get fined last year? +Mhm. +For opening on Sundays? +Yeah but because there's a European Court ruling outstanding local authorities aren't gonna take them to court. +Oh. +Because the shop can just put an injunction on them, stopping them taking it any further. +Or they can sue them for loss of income. +Uhuh. +Yeah? +Are you having this bath? +Yeah. +Are you happy about this car situation? +Yeah. +You sure? +Yeah. +It's work I'm concerned with. +Why? +enough done. +You've got Monday haven't you? +You've got Monday haven't you? +Sorry? +You've got all day Monday. +Yeah but I need to do some typing. +I'm trying to think how the fuck I'm gonna conduct this meeting with half the company round the table. +Yeah. +How I'm gonna run it. +Well how many's gonna be at this meeting? +About twelve I think. +Including Jeff? +Jeff, Fred. +Brian who's their manager of operations. +Jo? +No. +Oh! +She's not getting a look in? +Sorry? +She's not getting a look in? +Not so far. +Ha ha, I bet she winkles her way in if there's a free lunch going. +There isn't a free lunch on it, it's company internal software. +Oh. +Do you want mum to come to Argos with me tomorrow morning? +Why? +Well she isn't, I don't think she's doing anything tomorrow morning. +Are you asking me? +Why are you asking me? +Cos you said you'd come to Argos with me. +I said I'd stay here with the kids. +Oh is that what's the plan of action? +Yeah. +Sorry. +Right. +Okay. +Erm, I said I'd try and get over and see Steph one day next week. +Sorry? +I said I'd try and see Steph one day next week and take her some maternity clothes and erm I'll wash some of these baby things. +If not I've only got to put them up in the attic and bring them down in three month's time. +So I might as well take them over there and get rid of them. +She said she don't mind having the stuff in the house. +Those new twenty pound notes frighten me. +Everyone's . +Sorry I asked. +You have ain't you? +Twice. +Yeah I was lucky. +I some meat and christmas pudding and brandy butter. +I said I've got some boring people coming on Sunday for lunch. +So, oh they're vegetarians oh one, no the wife is vegetarian, she's a real mare . +I mean I don't mi the husband's alright the husband's alright. +But she's really pathetic. +And erm I got the vegetarian cookbook out this morning so Rob said what you looking at that for? +So I said well Janet's a vegetarian I said, I can't give us lot roast lamb and give her you know. +Said I've gotta do her something a bit decent. +Said I know what to give her he said ever so excited. +So I said ooh I said, what's that? +He said Birds Eye frozen dinners. +He said you can I said you can't do that. +But she she ate, the only meat she eats is chicken. +She's vegetarian but she eats chicken. +see what I I might +She isn't a proper vegetarian then is she? +do something with that tomorrow and freeze it and then reheat it, give it on Sunday for her. +She isn't a proper vegetarian then? +Oh no! +Too pathetic to do anything properly. +Yeah that's her. +I remember her now +Well I'm not gonna laugh when she comes up here am I? +No. +No +Well no it was the way you said the jumper. +No I said jumper. +Oh I see. +. +Oh that's nice. +Will that be okay? +Yeah. +Something like that? +I want it quite +Yeah do, do you want in chocolate and vanilla? +Yes please. +Right. +Well I do, I do them all, try and do them all a bit different but it'll be something on that line. +It's nice innit?next one? +No there's enough . +No, it's just literally sponge and buttercream. +It's all yours. +Thank you. +Oh it's it it's on a it's on erm it's on a plate so you er I don't mind I'm, you know I don't mind not getting it back for the next month. +Well you won't get it back till next week. +I'm not I I I +You don't want me to take all this now? +No, I I'm not no, I've got enough plates to keep me going. +just have to wash an extra one out. +Yeah well she +Sure you'll have enough for Sunday? +Yeah well she might have a paper one. +Not really, no. +I've just got a bag of crisps. +I'll go. +Go on! +No! +I +Come on then! +She's a worrier. +Why, what's the matter with her? +She +Why? +I don't know. +Is she like that at home? +She's obviously scared. +I thought I thought if you spend time my kids. +. I put the two of them are sleeping together in the same room and the other one's in, we've put her back in with us. +When if one wakes up then we've got three up there I said to Robert no way. +if one of the eldest wakes up got to go back to bed. +Er Robert said Charlotte who's two and a half she's always been pretty but erm Robert said right, mother's babysitting on the nineteenth so organize I I've been getting them into bed and then I've gave them a little bit of milk or whatever they want and then they've had toast with jam on. +When they've had that I say right you're going to bed now . +Well we had to drag them down the hall . +The first night I took them to bed at quarter past seven. +Literally quarter past eight when the I mean oh god knows how many times I went in there. +But I didn't lose my rag, I was in the right mood to deal with it . +So at quarter past eight I said right I said go to bed said gonna turn that light out . +Saturday night I put them to bed erm they went to bed at half seven Saturday night. +But I actually got . +So then Sunday night erm we was there for twenty minutes for ten minutes. +Oh no. +So I better now. +Mind you last Monday when I got home they was all up. +They was all in bed it was only Joseph who was up when I come out but he was nearly gone up. +Rob said within twenty minutes of you gone, he said they was all up. +Oh dear. +It's quite a good idea though. +Cos I say that, that makes the money for the christmas party. +the raffles I want they've got some prizes . +Yeah. +Your Barry's in here. +Oh right. +Cos I said I think I should have +Oh my god. +. +I said Gillian you see. +she said, has she them? +I said +Who was that? +Mrs , the funny, oh no I think that was Mrs erm not Mrs , what's the other one? +Can't remember . +Mrs . +! +Short hair. +Grey hair. +Straight, straight short hair. +Always +Quite tall . +Never wears anything jazzy. +Very plainly dressed. +Rather tall and she's very +Mind you she's French she's taught French +Yeah. +tell me what they were singing? +Who? +Wheels on the bus. +Oh wheels on the bus that was. +on the bus goes swish swish swish. +yeah Charlotte sings that bit. +Pete's starting to sing kind of mumbling the first two lines and all of a sudden she goes on christmas day . +I dread to think what Ben's gonna be like on chr christmas. +Why? +Well he's so hyped up now. +I know, all the shops have got father christmas. +Tommy goes shop father christmas father christmas +Well this is it. +Yeah. +is he coming tonight? +No! +He's so hyped up it's unbelievable. +Three twenty then she started shooting off +number one eight six. +Green one eight six. +I've got it the other way round look. +all day long something +Yeah. +beep beep all day long . +Dark blue nine seven o. +Nine seven o on the blue. +Eleven. +Ben's already tried to get one of his christmas presents, to get it out the box. +Which one? +Well I mean I'd bought stuff they'd all share. +And this is a sort of erm a car station. +On the yellow number two eight two. +What? +A sort of a car station thing. +You go up on it and it's Mr Chuff So I got him that. +I got Charlotte the Mr Loops Yellow Bus. +It's got all little people inside it. +What, the toy bus? +Yeah, that one. +Is it any good? +Well I ain't got it out the box yet. +I ain't had ch I mean I haven't had the opportunity to erm have a look at it yet. +And Joseph I got a couple of toys for as well. +Yeah. +Well I might be going out, going to Pet +On the red number two eight six. +going to Peterborough to erm +Two eight six on the red. +get myself something to wear if I don't hurry up and if I don't hurry up and get something. +Yeah. +So erm I might have to go to Peterborough yet on that day and get myself kitted out. +Well I've looked round Wisbech and I've looked round Lynn. +There's absolutely nothing. +Evening dress . +I mean either that or they're right up to your backside, you know, and I mean +pink number four five five . +He just kicked the bucket. +Do you reckon that'll ? +No that's that's well sellotaped up look. +Yeah. +Blue nine four five. +Nine four five on the blue. +Did you see anything for dad, for ? +That's what I say. +Was that jumper alright? +He ain't tried it on yet. +Come in, we had tea then he went out again. +Well what else is it ? +Tea and biscuits or tea and sugar +Back on blue number eight six seven. +Blue eight six seven. +I wouldn't have it, she's supposed to be spending it tonight. +Well I think I could make twenty quid go further than that. +Well look better should I say. +Look better. +his cake. +Pink four three three. +Four double three on pink. +Well what's in that flat box? +Has anyone discovered yet? +Well whatever it is no-one don't seem to want it. +On the yellow number three five six. +Three five six on yellow. +I honked up this morning . +Pardon? +I honked up this morning . +Rob made me a cup of coffee and erm I forgot it had been standing there and er I went to take a mouthful course I got a mouth full of skin didn't I? +Ugh. +I thought now what do I do? +Do I swallow it or do I, and I stood there debating over that was it, I went wheeuuu. +I thought well that's made up my mind for me . +Oh god it was gross. +I said to Rob I said well I'm a couple of pounds lighter. +He said why, cos I've just honked up. +He said you're not are you? +I said no I had that bloody cup of coffee you made . +On the white now six two two. +Six double two on white. +Well that black that black . +Well how much are those tin of Cadbury fingers? +Well I ain't seen nothing like that on there have you? +That's it. +Ten ten pound box of Quality Street +Yeah. +at least that's something worth having. +Precisely. +Right it's on the white number six two three. +Six two three on the white. +Oh god well it can't be anything that exciting then can it? +Yeah. +The last one on the green number eight four o. +Eight four o on the green. +No nothing folks. +Right, let me turn the cake round. +Think it's used to you in that I don't know what , I don't tell Ron, well he knows how I felt cos I said course I'm , god he said, is that a performance, he said I haven't sat on your knee for ages, I said no I just feel like it , before we went out and er, I said well I don't think there's anything the matter do you, I said with him back there saying make sure Mr Hudson has the notes, and he said no, he said, he said he wouldn't leave it seven months he said +No +if he thought there was something up he would of sent you for an x-ray, or +Mm . +a blood test he said I should think what's happened, that guy who's seen you, has, I, cos I said it was his understudy, yeah, cos he said Wendy had seen Mr Hudson so obviously the notes weren't in there were they? +No +You see, and, I, I now I've handled it a little bit better, but I couldn't focus much at all this morning. +Huh, I think I had such a good night,you know what you've bloody well done he said you've got up he said before you was ready he said, you knew you wanted to get on he said, and you've got up he said with the intentions he said, you had them bloody cakes he said before you had breakfast, well I had to with her coming +But did you know that erm, you was having Emma? +No she went, +Well next time she does that to you, you're out to meet somebody +I would have thought if she would have sat in the chair, I mean well she couldn't go the week aha I don't young enough yeah,about a month ago she just peed of somewhere and some , I don't know, she's alright, I said yes she'll be alright, I said I'm going to start cooking so she said I got to take these Heather, I said well they'll travel better in there, your father said you know Jane he said if you'd given her a hand +Yeah +yeah, she ain't got a minute has she? +I said I want them back today and I said erm this morning cos I said er I want them to put my cakes in, oh she said, oh, well are you going anywhere? +So I said no, so I'd better get on with my cooking, so she said oh she said done it on pur colour co-ordinated, I'm a bit more colour co-ordinated than that I was yesterday I had a +You're doing very well +I had a red jumper, but this was a, to be a honest this was a bit grubby down the front so it meant today +meeting last night +I ain't got a jacket with me, cold innit? +I think it's I think it's +cold innit? +I've Ron's well chuffed with this car +Yeah. +went down to Horsham yesterday and erm went down there and came back filled it up with petrol, and it worked out to five quid +No +said we would get a mile B M W +Oh well +Small world then, life's I mean erm, child seat, there was one child seat in that was strapped to the and erm there was erm the, the other car seats in the front of the not strapped in I had to hurry up and put them in the back, cos I was running a bit late I was running a bit late anyway. +I was six , I could have got another four little ones, I'd used like and I thought well er I perhaps get us you see and you +Think about that. +Raffle tickets Gilly, have you planned your conservative raffle tickets? +Yes, I've got them in my bag. +I've said to Jay I don't know whether she don't want me to help her, I don't know, I, this is the second time I've said to her, and she said oh I don't know where they are, and I ain't gonna ask her no more, if they get there they get there and if they don't +No, I've put mine , put mine in the envelope so will you hand them in on Saturday? +I'll tell Ang push them through the door so they can get +I thought you might stand a better chance of winning if there weren't enough votes. +I won last year +Yeah +even if it was just +So er, but I thought, Gemma's got if you can come er Joseph in front +I bought, I bought his pushchair in. +Oh, then I can just go up to Co-Op +I thought , oh +I thought I'd go into erm I'd go to the bank on my way to this afternoon. +Alright. +How about that for an idea? +Yeah. +There's more than five minutes left. +So which, which car park would you want to go in, the Rainbow on the roundabout going +Why? +well they don't have do they? +Oh so it's the yeah +and you +No. +and then if you two let er with Charlotte +Caroline, yeah. +Caroline. +Oh, it's, it's Westgate. +Yeah but you see it says Co-Op you see. +Oh I'm thinking of Rainbow why am I thinking of Rainbow, is that Co-Op as well? +Yeah. +Oh well, that's where I'm getting right confused. +at the top +yeah well as long as we get to school for half past, I mean but she'd got a nice little cauliflower and, I think she'd got a carton some sort of . +George Benson +Yeah I did notice +well at least we've got a keep an eye on . +That's what I thought, I'd bring the pushchair in, so we don't there . +A lot to fiddle with, but you know we'll use. +poor Derek, I mean I don't know whether Derek's away,didn't bother to come up on, if if he didn't bother to come Friday well he's still laying on the bench, but if it's Jack you see, the other day she well give did you ask him, I said no I don't mention it till Friday to him and then when I get the next one I'll say well is it this week's or last week's? +Yeah. +I don't want him to say well she didn't come round, she didn't ask me for the money, I mean I haven't ask him for the money and, he'd like to on a Friday, when one come up, when the next one comes you can you? +I thought going out tomorrow, so I said to Bob, +Well you know what a great big appreciate your trip tomorrow won't you? +No wonder you +That's right, it's just that I worked, I think, yesterday I couldn't get into erm, I just couldn't get into and yesterday I must admit I felt really rough and erm, I thought at three o'clock I was going to have to ring Iris, cos I knew you were still out you see and at three o'clock I thought I was going to have to ring Iris er just to come in cos I can't like your head was my stomach was churning over, it wasn't till, soon as I get some food in front of me oh I get , you see I didn't feel too cracking in the morning and I thought well there's lots of stomach bugs going about and I thought well I'm having one of them, and I didn't know what I fancied for lunch and I cooked the kiddies theirs, they had fish and what have you, and erm, I thought well what can I have,I thought I what, I thought I got a little tin of salmon there, so I thought right I'll have a salmon sandwich and I had that and believe me I felt, by three o'clock I could see myself picking me up off the floor, I only got spots before my eyes as such, but, I just had, I had four, five cups of water, I didn't drink any tea, and I wish then, well I don't know whether I could have felt any worse when I had the sandwich or not to be honest. +Your father said er David was poor yesterday, Monday, he kept coming over sick. +But, I felt, I know, at one point I really thought I was going to have to ring Iris to come and just sit with the kiddies, but I thought well if I drop down what the hell, devil this house gonna look like in, with three of them let loose in. +But do you feel better today? +Yeah I feel one hundred per cent better +Are you +No, I was, I was, came over all, I didn't feel right when I got up in the morning, I'll try and park outside Westgate, I didn't feel right when I got up in the morning, Kelly get round, yes I can go and oh find Robert erm, yeah I didn't feel right in the morning, but as soon as the day went on as soon as I had this salmon salad, sandwich, and Rob said to me well you sure it wasn't that, cos he said sometimes that salmon could make people feel a bit, nothing wrong with that, it's just a tin of salmon, you know. +Yeah, but I mean if you were like that in the morning well its worse +Anyway it's doing feel hundred per cent worse you know but erm I got the, I had quite and when you come I was, I was playing peepo with my jumper weren't I? +When you came to door I was pulling, pulling the head +Well I was coming didn't I? +Yeah, yeah well what time was that? +Ooh, +Fourish? +Just after that. +Erm well just as you come, that's the best I felt all afternoon and I, all I was doing was playing peepo with them through me jumper, cos I games +Where's he there going? +No he's chin wagging to someone well I'll drop you off here, well that's not a lot of good is it? +Cos you won't know where I've parked. +But no, but I can have a +Meet me outside Frank's, alright, I'll drive round and park outside Frank's +Mm, mm. +If I'm not parked out, if there's, there's anyone going about I won't park out, erm if I haven't parked where that silver car is +Mm. +just can you nip in and get me a pound and a half of liver? +Yes. +And can you have a look at the price of Mr or someone or other circus, it's Mr Toots or Mr Loots or +Right +turtles or, leave, leave her in here nan +You sure? +yeah, yeah +She can come +No leave her in here. +ok +Hello +Is +hello +hello, you ooh, oh she's gone. +hello +Yeah nanny's gone look. +hello, hello +Yeah we'll go with nanny in a moment lovely. +Nanny's not going without you, we're just going to get in another car park, right but nanny's got to nip in that shop quickly cos look, we're late picking Ben up, we've only got ten minutes and we've got to be at, be at the nursery, alright, and nanny's gone into that shop and we're now gonna drive round the other side of that, that square and then erm, nanny will be back, alright? +Right lets turn of this machine for five minutes. +But it's still, it's still cheaper in Argos yeah? +It's cheaper at twenty six ninety nine, I had to ask about that cos I couldn't see it +It's Mr something is it flying circus or +I don't know I said a circus one you see and er +Yeah +Hello, hello, hello +I know, she's eating a +She thinks she's going +No, Charlotte +Oh erm let me slow down this bit, erm no it's twen , oh it is twenty six ninety nine anywhere else, I've seen it but in Argos,Wi , well William looked in the catalogue on Tuesday for me, but he said it was nineteen ninety nine in Argos +Yeah. +but erm, had a little with the children's Christmas presents +Who? +Was it Monday, no it was yesterday, I was in the loo and I could hear this paper being ripped and I thought oh they've got one of my club catalogues, I didn't think any more of it and then I could hear Joseph going weee,I thought what the devil's he got, so went out, Joseph has got the flying circus bus that was meant for Charlotte and him and, Brenda and Charlotte was sharing the, the, garage thing that I've brought so I thought well now it's out, well they're not going to keep all that till I said to him whatever is Father Christmas going to say, I said he's supposed to be taking these away to bring I said er, what's Father Christmas gonna say?, no Ben forget, so I thought while they're out I could see Joseph's playing a lot, way with this bus thing, he was having a whale of a time, he thought that was great, so I said to Charlotte I said do you like that bus? +Cos that was meant for her you see, she said no, I want the house, she meant the garage, so I said don't you like the bus then Charlotte, no, bus for Joseph, bus for the baby, so I thought well that's decided it then now I, she, she better have Mr Toot and +Don't make a lot of difference really does it? +You see all +when it's +all the figures all erm sit er all the same +yeah +things you see, so erm, I thought right well that's it Ben can have the garage, I'll go and buy her the flying circus, Joseph can have the bus and call it a day. +Mm. +You know, I mean they've still got a couple of books each and I've bought three +Swing +the swing and I've bought them a couple of wooden puzzles where you pick the bits up so, I thought well then I'll call it a day there, and that'll be that +Well this is this is it Gilly cos I mean +Oh you can keep going though totally over the top I thought well Joseph's was twelve ninety nine and Ben's was fourteen nineteen ninety nine and that's just tough that I've got you know, I can't get Charlotte's any cheaper than that, but, I mean they're not gonna know how much I've, they're not gonna say well you've got five pound more than what I have cos they're not of that age so, that's how I've left it, that's what I'm gonna do, I'll get her the circus and then they can swap them over and Joseph will be happy that he got something on wheels +Yeah +I said to Robert +He has got something on wheels from us +yeah, I said to Rob you can't keep buying them learning toys, they've gotta +Yeah +play as well haven't they? +well that helps them as much really don't it? +Yeah , so erm cos then I had the argument about putting them back in the box. +Tell you what I've got, I keep getting, I, I shall think I'll have another one tonight, is a great big egg box +Mm, well you see, these, these are big boxes on their own there, putting them in another one +Yes, but I should you'd get one of those boxes in the end +Do you think so? +Well, those size of those boxes +Yeah, yeah +I've, I've got three of them now +well I could do with, I could actually do with one cos little bits and pieces, but erm, course then when I've them in +I do rather use the one, like me I'd like two, cos I've got one full of bits and pieces and the odds, odds and ends I keep +Oh I've got, the one that I've emptied this morning . +I think I found just the tiny +Yeah +So this +I come up to that cow upstairs alright,alright +Mm. +you know er, I think I've got to get me eyes tested, cos this can make +Well you said that months ago +this, well this can make you feel, can't it? +Mm, mm, I mean, its probably got to the st +Sometimes I look +its probably got to the stage where you want glasses all the time now, just you know erm +Yeah +I mean that doesn't help as well, I know Sainsbury's or Tesco's and you have to keep taking them off and putting them on +Yes. +that doesn't help cos your eyes are not having time to adjust erm without the glasses before you put them back on again . +And I can't cope walking around in my reading glasses but I've got to +Mm. +when I want to look at prices. +Pair of bi-focals or something. +Oh my god. +No, I meant the ones with the half moons in +Yeah. +or where they change half way down, so you haven't got to keep taking your glasses on and off +Yeah, they are got +Are they? +I think bi-focals with the half brim bits +So erm Which I thought well where's that all about the cake, other day, that three pound one, and then two of us went +Oh god +there must be a reason you know, they, they went well so I've got sixty of them, they take them with me tonight and they said would there be any cakes available for Saturday and I, I think and I nearly said to erm, well last year you reckon you couldn't sell cakes, but anyway I helped her +Nan, nan, nan +so, and er I said do you sell butterfly ones, and she said I was going to have a go at making them, but she said I can't make them like you, +Aha +I thought well I ain't +It involves , it involves too much work, that's why she can't do them like you. +Christmas fillers you see, so I, she, cos I've, I'm going to make a couple of fruit cakes, I said well I was going to bring in a couple of fruit cakes and said if you need them not, if not I said I'll take them back I thought no way is Sue gonna eat them, eat cakes like she did last year, or year before +Yeah. +she only had the bloody cheek to charge us last year for a turkey wrong, but I mean I did get that sorted out afterwards. +So are you helping with the catering side or are you running a cake stall? +I can't run a cake stall Gilly cos when I got a book a someone erm wants to +Oh yeah +That's right, oh +say ya, nay, or and er, so I +Well as you said last year they really wanted something for nothing, for it +Yeah , so what I'm doing, I'll these, gonna make about a hundred or one bit or a couple of bits and some butterfly cakes and the cakes and plates and cling film, charge them a quid, eight for a pound +Mm +and that, that would be +You're not telling me this Council driver can't go any quicker cos he'll try to get back to before, before twelve o'clock +I can't twelve o'clock dinner. +No we had a reasonably good dinner and, and we didn't want no tea when we come home, this could have been some of it cos all I had then when we did about seven o'clock when we decided we'd have a bowl of soup, erm,we stuffed ourselves, we had toast and breakfast erm, we had one or two sweets in the hospital, er while we were waiting and then er, we went to Asda and then we got er +er pie, chips and peas, hot actually, bread roll and butter, for one ninety nine, I wasn't half pleased, well that just suit us cos it, we would have gone somewhere else and had coffee and a cake it would of cost you, one fifty each +Oh yeah +so erm, we decided that we'd have this fish and chips before we got going,cos it we didn't eat, you know, an awful lot yesterday +so, erm, last night when we came home I looked at this Argos ticket which I couldn't find and I've, in that I've found what erm a Weight Watcher er menu, so I picked that out, so I've had erm don't know what you'll call it today, boiled egg and toast, eh bread and butter +Get down +Yeah, alright my love, just a minute. +You'll have to come out this way because there's lots of cars on the road Oh, one, two, three be careful and walk +Oh it's very pretty +Yes, just a, yeah go on then off you go in the house in the gate. +I don't know whether Wills is here or not. +See if your little boyfriend is here hi up the stairs, hello Charlotte, love his nursery, hello Joseph +Hello Kelly, what you got? +He got +Yeah, +He's got his +A bit of peace and quiet. +Oh that's golly, on the shelf,here, you've got on your hair +I'll make myself at home . +Which is mine, which is mine? +Over there. +O K. +clean your hair for you now? +Yeah, he's got mousse on him +Yeah I had to come to erm so I thought erm, I tried to ring you yesterday, your phone was out of order. +Well, she's having a new one put on. +Why we was paying the bill actually we paid to Sunday us connect us the following Friday +Why? +so I had it disconnected, had it disconnected and so I've asked for it to be re-connected, they can't do it until twenty seventh December +Oh no +and he's got to pay forty five quid to have it done. +What did you have it cut off for? +I didn't have it cut off, he did +No, why, why did you have it cut off? +I didn't want to talk to +Oh, so it's alright with one but not with the other? +Yeah. +What's this? +This is yours. +Oh yes, I can see what you've done, I tried to ring you and it said erm out of order, cos I was ringing to say I'm coming to the bank this morning so I'll pop in for coffee. +I thought god is it , +three times up the +A mask, want to put it on, want to put one on? +No. +Oh Chrissy, I use that where's your eyes oh , ooh, show mum, Gilly put one on? +No, no, no +You got a black eye? +No, no they're all fighting fit and in the best of health, eh, +Mum, I'm bored +Where's your little gun?watching Play Bus and Hannah's asleep and +A gun , a gun +Pardon? +Do you want to put this one on? +I had Jehovah Witnesses round this morning. +Oh that was nice for you, oh so you've had three visitors then that's lovely +Yes, the end the end of that one +It's a on the er +Bloody hell he didn't stop to take +You mean a black one? +Yes, with all his gold and rings and is that real gold, he went berserk +he didn't start mate, they, they tried to get on him. +having him on +Sure, bloody Goldilocks,everywhere +So I haven't got to pick them up from nursery today, Jayne's picking them up. +Oh that's all right +So erm, I thought right +yeah +go and have a coffee. +I rang up Mandy yesterday +Oh yeah, how is she? +who was rather sarcastic, sarcastic, I said to her erm, oh you're still alive then, as if to say you haven't rang me rang you . +What she say? +Yes she said we're going out to a dinner party tonight, I thought golly +Here we go +She's fallen I think straight on the face. +Come on let's have a look. +There we go, +There we are all done, all done. +how did you get on with +Erm, he was, on the first and second day, he was second in class and sixty fifth over all and then he was, the next day he was sec still second in class and fifty fifth over all and then once the prop shaft or something's broken, yeah I've got a spare one, but the car came back in one bit so erm, he's got an interview with T V S next week I think or the week after because erm when Rob lent him something that erm, did his, did a lot of it's nothing to do with erm, they sponsored him two thousand pounds +Oh good +See you later +so er , mind how you go +bye, so erm, he's got an interview with erm T V S and these two guys that erm sponsored him for it +Brilliant +and er, in a,and then Top Gear they want to do an interview with him for er, erm racing for the disabled. +Do they? +Yes, so he's really +bully for him. +getting into it. +Cos I've watch it,recor record it a couple of times, but I didn't realize they each had different days. +Yeah. +there look, it's my fork, stop biting my nails. +Pardon? +Stop biting my nails. +You have? +Yeah, yeah,. +Will see +What, where you going to go? +Well I +You on your own or with +No, me and Derek +Oh +I think he's great as that, I think he +He's really quiet actually +after his wife, I said to Ron when erm +before we come I said, erm, I said you realize I said that you gonna be under pressure really cos +Why? +alright he's met you for five minutes but he's come here I said this gang of children, I said the poor bugger's not going to know what hit him I said alright if it's just for Sally's three I said he's gonna be, he's not gonna be relaxed I said I know that for a fact I said I know what it was like when I used to go and visit your people when I was +Yeah, yeah . +so I know he's not gonna be relaxed but, but after you went erm when Rob come home he said well he said what time did the party break up? +I said oh just when it got dark really I said we're having it down the house, I said erm drank more port I said every time we went to the loo they filled up my glass +he said eh, what do you think Gill? +I said I thought he was a right in fact I've never seen Sally like it before I said I felt quite really +No, but he seemed to be great, he said, he said well he said to, to me he said she's with the real thing and she wants to go for it +But he said all he did was people he'd met quite a few times now, they say that you know like cos he's very funny, he comes out with me, god Sally what's the matter with you, you've been drinking or something, I said no, that's how he is he's not +Yeah +himself. +No, I think he's, I said to Robert I've got quite a good streak cos I've never seen Sally +We are competitive I know that +more with someone than it should be like +I know what it should be like but I +I know we have people round here for actual . +Everywhere I go like he follows me know what I mean, I'm sitting up there at one stage and he, he'd spend a day sort of curls, curls up and cuddles me. +That's what it should be like Sally +He goes to bed sometimes at eight o'clock +I don't wish to know that. +No, no, he lays there talking to his wine and stuff you know, it's really +That's what, that's what is missing out of Colin and I, Colin and I +Mm +was conversation, we just didn't talk at all +Talk about it +that's right I mean when, when you ask which position you want, you know, +you think god, you know, and after five years of marriage you think well have we tried everything, yeah +five years of marriage and three children you know, +it gets better every day. +Mm oh I'm pleased about that, I'm just waiting for the wedding bells, I said to Robert I said if they can't get any one to witness it, I said we'll be there,, he said, well you I said what do you mean? +He said you're the one who kept saying go for it +Go for it yeah +he said but don't wait he said I've only got you to blame and he did +What you doing on Saturday night? +Oh we've got, I don't think we've got anything on Saturday night, erm, Sunday that we got, Graham, Graham and Janet and for lunch, mum says why do you +why do you invite them, I says well, I said well you know +Obliged to. +it's that sort of time of the year when you have all sorts of people there, but I mean she's such, so pathetic, words gonna come over for lunch, I mean we have them over every year sort of Christmas time +Yeah +although we never get invited back +darling +we never get invited back you know, I think erm, +We will have you round here, we're thinking of having a party, erm, like an evening party. +Can't, erm Rob's do, erm you know what we've got to get to this year? +Erm +Well I'll tell you, Christmas party you know it's really +I think we will have one. +We toyed with the idea of having one on the twenty first of this month, but if we did, but now that we've got someone interested in the house +Yeah +erm, I don't think we will, I think we'll wait erm +wait for New Year, when everyone's finished partying. +Yeah +Make it an engagement party Sally. +Oh +Come on, I'm getting right excited about this +yeah,. +No we've got them coming over on Sunday and she said oh don't do anything special just do sandwiches , oh you invite them over for Sunday lunch, cos she's a vegetarian, except she eats chicken and vegetarian that eats a chicken +Oh no not a vegetarian +I think it's, I said to Robert it's just an excuse to have chicken every Sunday for lunch so that they can save some money, you know, +Yeah, more than likely +so I've decided I'm going to do erm something called Sunshine Chicken, which is just chicken e , chicken casserole, a bit different, she doesn't drink alcohol so I can't do anything in wine, erm so I'm doing that, I'm doing four portions of chicken of that cos the daughter eats chicken, erm +take that off +and I'm doing +What you got for Christmas Day? +sausage meat loaf with bacon and bits and pieces +Cor lovely +jacket potato +What instead of just doing +yeah, erm, what else am I doing? +Oh cruel dude +Erm, veg, vegetable curry I'm doing, there's something else in the savoury line, there is four things in the savoury +Something +that went with salad what was that? +We're going to a party on Saturday night it's my friends birthday party, see if I can get you an invite +Erm, yeah just let me make sure I can get a baby sitter, it just depends what mum and dad are up to, I know they should have been out on Friday night +Is your mum Mrs E ? +No B +Oh, cos there was a little leaflet +over there. +I won a bottle of wine on that yesterday +Did you? +Yes +Good for you. +Children had erm er craft erm stall and a cake stall to raise money for the Christmas party Father Christmas so it doesn't come out of +Yeah +and erm, Jayne presented me with a bottle of wine this morning when she took er a bottle of sherry +Bottle of sherry +yeah, yeah Croft as well you know, oh,we're away here . +I've got quite into port though, I'd finished that bottle of port by Tuesday night +Cor we drink port and brandy +well I, I drink +I'd gone off of it until we opened that one on Sunday when you came over and I'd finished it by Tuesday, I was getting quite hooked on it +Yeah we usually +and thought this is no good well we came up today +Yeah +yeah, who was on it today? +What's today Thursday? +Was it the bird? +It was today was it? +Was it, was it +Speak properly, pancake +She's going through a stage talk about cakey, cakey goes to it's all sort of pathetic, oh yes hello Joseph, and erm she says pardon,pardon, she said daddy. +is that a pinafore? +No it's shorts, culottes +Is it? +Yeah, +Ooh, ooh, ooh. +Hannah got to go to Victoria hospital on twenty second of January. +Oh how's she getting on? +Erm alright, she you're alright, aren't you now? +I can see that this one's still not on his feet you obviously noticed, he'll walk about when you hold his hands +Yeah +he just won't go he just takes a, but he's fine +heavy +, yes I'll talk about you +You know I am as well don't you? +You've got a big tummy , you got a big tummy. +Give it back to Charlotte, well let her play with it then. +Why? +Oh that clock's right I hope is it? +Yes +Oh that's alright +it's twenty five to eleven +as long as I've gone by, or I'm leaving here by eleven give me a half hour to get home. +I go to Tesco's this afternoon I +It's like old mother hubbard today, old mother hubbardy +Oh Oh Chris goes on this weekend? +Does he? +Yeah. +My god. +there on Friday have one of these,should be on on Friday +so there putting they +was really impressed by that. +I don't think it's that big and Dick came over the other day and erm he wait +He wait till you get in there? +yeah, and he went up the plot and he come back and he said cor you can have plenty old erm cold sheds that he could have got, I said what do you really think, I played a free hand, you mean mum and dad's hand +Is it? +made to look so small. +Yeah it does actually. +So if it was me walking his dog as he goes by he said we'll see what, he said we're rebuilding a new bungalow on the insurance claim . +Why does their house, their house shakes +Yeah and they've got some cracks in there +Yeah, they're not on a are they? +They own nothing, I mean, it's over a hundred years old, so it's just, it's like built on the soil +Think about where probably out that way somewhere. +Oh hope so, it'll be really good. +Mm. +Yeah move out that way +Well . +and what we doing now is London, London yesterday and you, you should have been at home today but he had to go back to London again so I didn't keep him very much, given up is it? +No it's not +Given up smoking? +who Rob, why? +He gave up yesterday no you have to laugh +he Monday, he hasn't had one since Monday night. +I've got +and he made me feel right guilty yesterday I, I had to buy a packet about three o'clock, so I didn't have any until three o'clock and then talk to the cat and I thought no it's no good, Margaret I'll have to hide this packet up +ooh does the cat understand you my love? +me and my mother have erm arranged it all, she's invited us down there +Oh god. +Let them get on with it Sally. +Yeah, I couldn't even fight the thought that she'd asked him at no what I mean. +It really upset me, erm, but then +Well it'll be nice for you and Greg to have Christmas on your own +I know it'll be quiet, but +We won't stay here +true, that is what I mean you, you'll be able to go away +Yeah +I think that's the trouble with Christmas, I said to Rob, in a way, I said I hope when I get to mum and dad's age I won't expect my children to think oh god you got to go there for you know I said that I'd love to just once take the kids away and go somewhere +Yeah +for Christmas, but I mean erm, it's expected I mean they all come to ours anyway so, but erm +I mean our, the more I think about it I think the main, we might even go to Germany to see my sister,so it might be next year, but I can't get Tony to talk at the moment, I don't know erm, +Oh thank you +sister's on Christmas Eve, she lives somewhere they've got this brilliant pub down there called the , Christmas Eve and then over to his mum and dad for Christmas Day, but I , I wouldn't want to stay here +Oh they organized Christmas let them get on with it cor this is the first bit of peace and quiet +Mm +amazing what a sweet will do. +Yeah. +Yeah,you cheeky little monkey, oh what you mean here he's got a black eye? +Mm +Yeah, he dropped, he was playing kitchen table he dropped it, luckily it just caught the bottom of his eye +I've been offered a job Gill +Who by? +You probably won't believe it +Not Bernard, oh no, did they ever come back to you? +No, Ian +Mm, I thought they were on the way here, I saw loads of for sale signs but I didn't see any new ones +This part of the conversation has been wiped off, it'll continue in a few minutes. +You'll have to come out this way because there's lots of cars on the road Oh, one, two, three be careful and walk +Oh it's very pretty +Yes, just a, yeah go on then off you go in the house in the gate. +I don't know whether Wills is here or not. +See if your little boyfriend is here hi up the stairs, hello Charlotte, love his nursery, hello Joseph +Hello Kelly, what you got? +He got +Mind you I can't talk, I looked in the mirror a couple of weeks ago and my eyes are, I mean are really they're having a rough time indeed +Oh my eyes are really +and my eyes under here were black and I +Mine are most of the time +and I thought god I've got to do something, I've looked in the mirror and I though Gill this is disgusting, you know, it really is +It's horrible isn't it sometimes? +So erm, I went out and I had my hair, oh I've had me hair permed again but you can't tell unless you put a brush through it though +Got to get mine done again +and erm, I went up to mum's and she's got a load of Unique make-up, and she said if there's anything in that bag you want it, you'd better have it, so I said +I went through, and we did +destroyed all mine and put it all in the , I mean lipsticks ten quid a time or whatever, seven quid a time, so I went through and Mary had a she got this moisture , oh I thought what does this mean, she said it's for removing lines, I thought right we'll have a sample this +Yes +so we put it under there and round here and everywhere and I went over to on Saturday and erm crumbs she said you look, you look really good,I thought +What's it called? +yeah it's erm,moisture sturgeon it's by Clinique +Oh it's +oh I don't know, this is just a sample pot, but er, it was one that she, if you buy, sometimes you're buying make up you get a freebie gift, thing, and it was, it was in one of those +Alright, don't panic, here you are, quick, quick, quick, need some of that +and er, she said my eyes really sparkled she said first time I've seen them sparkle for a long while so I was right chuffed about that. +Mum. +Hello, oh that's pretty Charlotte and Benjamin found their Christmas presents the other day. +Did they? +Yep +I was, I was in the loo and erm they were, they went into the office and I could hear this rummaging of paper and I thought they've got a club book, I didn't think any more of it, and when I came out they got, both of them out of the boxes. +Ben had got erm a Mr garage thing and I +Does he as well? +and I bought her but when I came out the loo he is playing with the bus going wheeee, he was having a great time with that, I looked at him and I said got to give that to Charlotte, no, no, I don't like it I want the house, meaning the garage, so I've gone out now and bought her a circus +cos when I went, when Ben went to nursery school erm he wanted a box out of the break out of the office, I said no you're not, I said Father Christmas is going to come and collect that, I said he's gonna wrap them and I said he's gonna come and deliver it +Oh dear +no, no, no, I thought oh god I'm gonna have to get them out of the house +Well we've had all this trauma about you know, cos I do you, where do you want the he said well don't see much of daddy or nan and granddad and nana and granddad said they moved in on Christmas Day stay here and Rachael and Steven wouldn't come up,stay here on Christmas Day, it's quite likely, quite likely to go with daddy he said but, in many ways I he said I know what we can do is when we send up the chimney we could put nanny's address, nanny's address on it, shall we? +I said yeah ok. +Well that's alright . +We had a new battery put on the Jenny +I did, I to it disconnected +It's not on, I mean he is, it's as much to his advantage as yours, what if he was taken ill? +I know, that's what I said, that's what got it +And you need an emergency you, you gotta well, +He's only recently started to take notice of Hannah like take her swimming and that on and since he found out that she's got a heart murmur and that's what it's like, cos he for tea on the way back, and then he bathed the children and put them to bed, and last night no, what he put them all in the bath again, put that down again +No, it's +, he er,he, erm, +Charlotte can you get any more in your hand? +You know, I mean, what you've come to stay the night? +He put the boys +in the bath last night, +I think Sam accidentally kicked Hannah, or kicked Hannah I don't know I wasn't there, but he came flying down, really got to curb that child he said, I said I beg your pardon, he said you've got to curb that child kicking Hannah, I said if I'd seen him kick her , he said that well I'm not sure that he actually kicked her it might have been an accident +Oh +but you've got to curb him of that, I said make matters I said Dan get yourself down here now I said did either of you kick Danny? +He said no, so I said don't lie to me yes you did, I said you just said you didn't know if he kicked her or not, and this argument went on, Danny ended up in tears and I ended up really angry so I said well I'll go down then, leaving all the kids screaming fuming, but he actually knocks on the door now . +Oh Sunday it was really bad cos he had these people turn up for lunch and erm, said it's Sam arranged to come and collect him quarter to six and then we went up to Fore Gate for lunch and then we came back here and had erm we were all standing in the kitchen here, knock on the door, a walked in, I'd completely forgotten about it +Oh no +was standing near the washing machine,, Simon gave him a filthy look, I said look I apologize for I'd completely forgot that you were coming to collect he said I know I can see that, he hadn't really what with the kids all running around and, so quickly got them and er, I thought he got, did you bring your cheque round? +He said no I've forgot about it sorry, no I completely forgot about it sorry I'll bring it round later and give it, he posted it +And he's the one who sent it. +What he's, I bet what he doesn't like about it is that you're not running back to him saying look Simon come back to me I need you and it +Oh +Wynne my supposed friend fixed him up and . +Oh +Looking at them next stage, distribution centre then are we? +Yeah +Mind you this is getting quite frightening at his age lark +Age? +Yeah +I mean Rob was saying he +watched a documentary on it the other night and he said even by kicking someone now, if you don't haven't, isn't an accident it's like kissing someone you +Ooh +Now it, now it, he says it's getting quite serious now, cos apparently came up with erm these four cases where erm the people have lived an absolutely normal pure life +Yeah +and the only thing that they've done is if you kiss somebody, kissing someone whatever you know, erm or someone's dirty and that is the only thing they can put it down to +Oh my god +its quite frightening when it gets to +yeah it is +things like that +Mum +What my love? +No you don't want that, oh you're making a lovely train here well we're going to stay at a hotel on the nineteenth this Sunday +Are you, ah +Yeah +second honeymoon +No we're going to erm Horsham for the Christmas party, the works Christmas party and erm, the hotel where Rob stopped at last time when he was down in Horsham, that's where they're doing Christmas party this year, so we obviously we staying in a double room +Oh lovely +for the night, so, cos the woman at the hotel said er, oh she said want a double room this time not a single +Oh yeah +so he said I did say I'm bringing my wife, she said oh yeah how many times have I heard that before +, it could be really embarrassing +, so what we'll do we'll stop over the night and erm come home Friday morning, and mother's +going to stay the night. +Stay the night at your home? +Yeah, yeah, get the kids organized and that's +Oh that'll be lovely. +So, well I haven't got anything to wear yet, +It's my bodyguard , so where's he having that? +Oh I don't know +Where, is it his office? +yeah +a lunch do or +I finished at lunch time today, +Oh I wouldn't go for anything like that, he knows that as well +Laugh if you said I'm coming and you didn't turn up +Yeah. +I'll suggest that I thought is fucking crazy, you know +, I don't think you've got anything to worry about, have you seen that advert for Babycham no erm the advert with Babycham, erm, er running on about true romantics and he goes through all the differences his and this woman marrying this guy and she must be and she must be fifty five, and he's about twenty three, twenty four and Rob turns round the other day and said,she's got +I haven't though, cos, I mean when he gets to those he's not a normal twenty two year old, he's way beyond oh yeah, twenty two, but +Does he want to go out? +Yeah at the same time I'm aware of the fact +Mum where's that cat going? +that he's maybe on a learning curve, do you know what I mean? +I mean his little friend that came around on Sunday, Mat +Mum what's that called? +and he's he's six feet seven tall , he's twenty and you'd think he was thirty five +Oh, I might come round in that case , that +Hold on, go and get Charlotte +What do you want? +Bread +Yeah with what? +the bread +Where's +He's got +He's gone to the +Oh yeah +What do you want on it? +Erm, erm butter +Get down then, so I can do it +yeah +through a snow a couple of weeks ago +Do you want some bread and butter with jam Charlotte? +Yeah +Please +please +yeah, bring that one here then +paper +Paper, yes, +Oh, that's +paper, +about eleven o'clock +oh god, +Why you got to go out then? +cos erm, Val will be home at half past eleven and +Oh +Yes, Sally says we'll do it, we'll change it in the car alright, just as I was saying we had erm,we had roast dinner, Charlotte don't aggravate him, we had roast lamb, erm and I'd washed up by two o'clock +mum +and you know the first time since we've been married I've been able to actually cook a roast dinner and washed up by two o'clock on +When was that, last Monday? +yeah +Well this Sunday we left all the washing up +Mum +gone and left us, half past eight, we were in bed by quarter to nine and +mum , don't want some on mine +You don't want jam on yours? +I like it +You do want jam or not? +No, I just want butter +You just want butter? +Yes mum +There's yours then sit up +That's +So you gotta say so by and David, you've got to travel down there on the Saturday. +Well I've got to get to King's Lynn on Saturday +Oh King's Lynn, oh that's not too bad +I want some more jam mum. +Ah I knew this, I get this every tea time. +Alright, alright let's see if you like it +I'm going through a stage where erm, I'm cooking them lunch and they just have a +I've got on here mum +is he alright like that or? +Yeah, put it there he'll feed it, he'll have it, hurry up, that's it hurry up and eat it cos we've got to go erm, and they'll have sandwiches or something for tea and er if you point something they say no I don't want it and then when the other one can I have it, oh you're digging your finger in it +Yeah +Erm Graham and Janet little boys have got them at +And what have they said about that? +They're not doing anything about it +No, they probably won't back down +I mean when tests and god knows what else +Oh, oh no +What are these? +what's that called? +Charlotte, she's a girl, +she's like a tiger +She's like a tiger is she? +Is she pretty? +Is she pretty? +What? +Tell Gill where you'd go this afternoon?tell her +Mm +you little slug +he is, I call him a slug +Look Charlotte can't do anything without being messy, look, the other, the other erm morning I went to school to pick Ben up, er and I put her in the car seat, she's lovely and clean, and I give her a biscuit, by the time we got +Oh no +by the time we got there, it was all, I mean it was only a plain biscuit but it dry all way round here +That was like yesterday, right, it was all over his clothes, all over his jumper and all round his face and all in his hair, you're a slob,a slob, shall I go and get yeah +I can't sit on seat. +That's right you sit on there and I'll get the kiddies together +no Joseph +right, you gonna hurry up and eat that, because we've got to go sweetheart +Oh +if the baby right, let me go and put Joseph in the car +Why? +you sit here, you sit still for a minute and eat, eat your sandwich and I'll just put Joseph in the car oh what +hands +yeah, eat it up then +just let me go and put the baby in the car and I'll be back for you in a minute, alright? +Yeah, if you sit there and eat that +What? +There's none there. +, yeah in there +don't want fork, +baby +baby +baby , it's baby +that's Charlotte, that's his hattie +hattie +hattie +look +there you go +, mm, +oh my mummy said hat just smack my head +No she doesn't want to smack your head there you are +get off her, there she is +I'm back, hello my lovey +she's looking at Charlotte +Cor, +no gently with her would you? +Let her go, let her go +Where's that gone? +Pardon? +That's alright Gill leave them +Are you sure? +Yeah, after the devastation we left you in the other day +Oh god, don't matter about that right then have you finished eating? +Yeah, eating +Right let's just quick, can I use, have you got a cloth, I can just wipe her hands with? +Oh yeah there's a you'll have to use +I've gone to work +I know I've got baby fresh wipes. +I wonder what you was +Yeah alright, well I think you've eaten what you're going to eat you don't eat crust anyway, right that's it put it down +Got +don't you leave anything will you? +Put the cards back up please +got +You've got some, oh, +you can't pick up, yeah +oh +Oh, come on Charlotte cos erm +Come on darling you've got to go, we see you another day, should we? +No. +Yeah, we'll come and play another day +no +when we've got a bit more time +shall I find out cos I think I'll see Maria tonight, I'm sure she won't mind if you come, to the party on Saturday +Oh it's Maria is it? +You know Maria do you? +Your baby sitter, she's the plumpish one +Yeah, yeah she's the big one I was being polite. +I think she's got about eighty people going so it should be quite good and we got a +Hang on, just wait +I'll have a word then I'll give you a ring tomorrow +yeah +Friday, yeah +mm, yeah I shall be there, I shall definitely be there in the afternoon anyway +Yeah, ok +as far as I know, when, when is it her party? +Saturday +Saturday night? +yeah +Oh, in the meantime I'll just see if mum's available, she can baby sit +, +yeah, +I haven't met, yeah, erm, where's he live? +Up the road, big +No, I haven't met him yet +and Mat and are coming as well. +I mean I'll wait, we wait there and , but I think she just wants as many people as she possibly can, do you know what I mean? +How old is she? +She'll be twenty three +And she's just had a party party +Yes, her mum and dad just gone off on a cruise for er, I don't know +Oh god , booze up time +Ok, well give us a ring then +I'll ring you tomorrow afternoon then +erm, I shall be there as far as I know and in the meantime have a word with mum and dad if they're free +right bye, bye then sweetheart +wave bye, wave bye, bye +bye, bye darling +bye. +So woke up and Will's now gonna show off for you, right we'll see you soon +Lovely to see you +yes, I thought I'd just nip in, let you know I'm still alive +thank you, bye +talk to you later +bye. +let's just do the door right off we go look where you're going +step +that's right, now we've got to hurry up and get home, we're late say what's new mummy +So you had a good day yesterday? +Yes dear, very, very nice +I thought about you, about what time was it, about ten o'clock and I thought well it's no good gasping for air, she'll soon be able to have some yeah . +but as I was saying erm, it was erm when you think I sort of tend to worry if I see like Neville you know +Mm +towards or anywhere, but then you see it can be your weight as well +yeah +to climb the stairs, and I think then you tend to panic a bit, I and I felt most of the time I felt fine, and then you see getting up at five o'clock yesterday morning, by the time I got off, it was your father that fell asleep on that last drinking session, but I mean, as I said we ain't used to drinking in the day like that +I mean some of them at the going in at dinner time and have a couple, three pints it don't hit them does it? +No +And erm I they had to have a couple of I mean I think +yeah? +and er, well what they were saying on bus cos he had a sleep just in front of us last night, somebody said we're Park Row and they said oh he's asleep in front there, well that was him you see, so I reckon he comes from there, see I mean, the rest must have just come in here or King's Lynn, well if they fell out +Yeah +they could get ready for half past where with rather doing the +oh +we had our alarm ooh after five, William called us just in case we laid late, so we was on the move ten, ten past five, so I mean we've been on the go perhaps two hours more than anybody else and eh, and then cos when, it was just like that, but it was down here now I thought to went to that down on his and a little +yeah +bit here and I thought god that so I thought right I'm gonna change places in that seat but your father's sitting on,alright, I said go in that back seat, just behind us there were there or I said or I'm just coming to sit where you are, I said I can't do four hours sitting like this, I mean I'd have been boss eyed before I got, well I was I, I, all say look at that cloud +mm +I would have been boss eyed before I got out of Lynn, I could feel it you know, squint through +yeah +and I thought there was no good putting up with it just by not saying +yeah +perhaps he's been forewarned and just swapped over sides with , but I mean we had a full wind and light through then, well sort of +yeah +and er so that was ok and, you know, but they I didn't know quite what to do with myself when I got home then I watched, see the news, see about this Sharon er, no Sharon +yeah +er I was listening to +well, I mean all erm was erm +erm Wednesday night was a, an, an engineer +yeah +well it's the next door neighbour and they said it's alive and I asked Jayne cos I said what the,hospital, yeah cos like it, it's that neighbour, well it's a neighbour +yes, but +neighbour either side, +yeah +but, I reckon it's the guy when they went down to Aunty Queenie, to that stream that day +yeah +because they, she said that has this hay and straw,so so all in all +so er will go on another trip? +Oh yeah I mean they were good company to go out with and I said to you at dinner time and then since they've joined us, so we was all the same +yeah +time, I sort of thing, bit like and Barbara did, but they were +What? +where you looking this is the combine here look +but I mean they weren't you know and I mean someone we didn't even know at all, so er you know all erm but I mean Lionel sat with the guy that organized it and the bus driver so he didn't feel out of it, you know, +Mm +so you know all in all erm +When could you go on one of these +, but when they asked us to go, you know, I mean they two seats to spare and old Bert wouldn't speak and came and said would you two like to go, he's on the committee, you see so he went and mentioned it to Lionel and Lionel got them out and said would you like to go and right I'll put your name down so +How much did it cost? +nothing. +Huh, you can't complain at that can you? +Erm,gone in that museum it was eight ninety five to go +and the meal would have cost, I should have think, well Dan said the Christmas meal was being advertised, it was gonna be served any time, erm +I mean you can't , you can't go any, I mean you can't even go to the Bridge for er, erm, a meal under a fiver so +I eight or nine pounds +yeah +I think it was, was it six fifty for one lot of meal and eight for another? +, it's got the +Just got erm , I mean was out in the stick I like to just half a dozen little flight of stairs perhaps with a dozen steps +Don't know, well what have you done with it? +Alright, well look, dear I can scrub that and I'll, I'll get it for you so all in all er can you see the boat, you look and see them in a minute +behind this one +erm, oh +I came along here the other day and I thought oh heck, if you were living in actually +Yeah. +Mum, there's a boat +Pardon? +boat +I don't know what you're saying we're going to go to the shops +shops +That's right, we'll change the subject , so er erm oh, forgot whatever I was going to say to you oh are you doing anything Saturday night? +No +Oh you got your market all day haven't you? +No, I ain't promised I'll be there all day Gilly because I could +well,noth nothing's happened as yet, but Sally's erm been invited to a party, her, her baby sitter's party +mm +and there's only going to be a couple of people there she knows and she was gonna ring Marie and see if Rob and I could go, you know, really as a, to keep, make up a foursome sort of thing +yeah +and she said it's on Saturday night so I'm sor , you know, I'm sorry it's short notice and erm she said I'll ring Marie and find out, I said well you know ring her but I said I can't make any promises I said, I know mum should have been out Friday night and I don't know what else she's got on +Oh it's only a +so erm it might not come +Mum +Yes Charlotte +Pardon? +I said I would make them a hundred butterfly cakes, and they either they'll eat them or they'll sell them, and I'll hav I'll try and have them ready for when rings up at half past one and if they sell them and she brings me any I wouldn't mind knocking a few more up for tomorrow, but I'm not gonna give them all +Oh no +You know, I shall say look, er, a I'm a +So, what's the plan of action then, is dad going all day or +I don't quite know Gilly, what tomorrow? +Yeah. +I don't quite know, er morning always seems that much busier as regards food, so Ivan's going up in the morning erm, you know why? +Well is only, only asking +Father's gotta be up there as tomorrow night to take to bring his stuff +Mm. +when they shut at three you know four +Well I mean his erm, his father's up there and, I mean if you want to go up later on I'll run you through +yes, oh +if you decide you want to go sort of four, fourish or threeish +oh it closes at three +oh well +so I mean I should want to sort of come home sort of then you know, er +Mum you should be alright for a lift home with someone shouldn't you? +Mm. +I mean if you decide you want to go +But I don't want to go from eight o'clock +no +or nine o'clock till three +no cor look at this tractor and trailer look, can you see it Aysh? +Yeah +it's not got a number plate on it +tractor +and a trailer +No, er, we were sort of saying to Jayne everything was so pricey in that museum +Mm +you know, erm, I said well we'll take them a little something home. +Well, that's how a lot of these places make the money isn't it? +Yeah +Tell you where I wouldn't mind going to have a look erm,Crystal +What's +Well, there, if the things open today, cos erm I haven't got anything for Jayne +mm, mm. +if they have got Aunty Jayne's present +Yeah +have a, cos I bought her that umbrella +yeah,skirt +yeah +and earrings +mm you couldn't wait could you? +I don't see the point in going mad cos you're not going to get there any quicker +Then you get some clown like her +mm +or him +god, they're half asleep today +with no +perhaps if we can quickly, I mean I don't want a lot out of Tesco's, it will just save turning out, I don't mind turning out this afternoon but, if the traffic +It'll do more good at home can't you? +Well it don't seem a lot of point in wasting petrol to come +Cos I don't, I don't +hoover my house but I mean father's now put irons and toasters on side the bed and oh Gilly +Oh, get this Christmas bingo out the way +So I got I've, I've have a +you'll be alright +I'd rather have a couple hours +me +a couple of hours tonight wrapping up presents and rest and you know +mm +rather be up there with them they sanctioned to go up there on a Friday night and they said that, that lot of them do er you know, what you call it, there you go up and everyone's in the mood to sell you something, they let you, you know +mm +and course with that Ron on the , of course you know, he tells jokes and some of them are a little bit crude, but, they take all in good part, you know, I said to dad I said you don't always, he's that dry +mm +I mean he went to school, he went to oh school, but he lived at Enfield and erm, you'd have never thought then that he had got it in him and, so dry I said to dad I said he never ought to be a bus driver, cos the things he comes out with, he'd have to be a comedian, I mean he's, I mean as er, what, they used to call the comedians didn't they, three or four of them on the telly, and I mean +Mum +they're all animals, +, I know, I think he wanted a pair of binoculars. +er, so, with that er he never ought to be on the buses, I mean he old Bernard Manning and Charlie what was that, his name, Charlie what? +Williams? +They called it the old comedians +Yeah, yeah , yeah, er well he was a half cast,wh +yeah +oh god you definitely said they're out today, oh where's he going? +Oh ah, and they talk about women drivers, ain't got a patch on him +Where's he gone? +Oh, oh, well he's still reversing, he's waving his arm about for everyone to overtake him but, he still sits in the same position oh dear +So I come there at this morning with cramp in my leg and I said I've hardly had that, +Oh there's that little old man mum +oh yeah, she came the other week with somebody, I reckon he ill treated her +I, he looks a bit weird don't he? +Yeah +Oh come on, stop having a chinwag I see if I can park round by the post office first do you know what you want out of Argos or, oh you've written all the numbers down haven't you? +Yes I did. +That's what I call super efficient +There's the Argos ticket I don't know whether it's in +What's the matter? +Alright, can, can I just park up then I'll get it for you +Yeah, where, look see where this light is up here, look, as soon as I've parked I'll get it for you but at the moment I can't reach it +alright? +In a minute I'll get it that's a school like Ben's, look Charlotte +Can you see it? +That's a nursery like Ben's +What's the problem Joseph? +Well there are then drink it. +There look there's the serviette. +isn't it? +oh what is the matter with everyone today? +I think you might have to have a look Gilly, just to double check cos I've got two numbers on here. +Oh, what was it you wanted? +The police one +Oh the police Lego, erm, Duplo? +yeah +Look at the digger Charlotte +Oh where the hell have I put that now? +Digger +look here well I, I know which one it is cos they're on a separate page in the Argos book +Oh no , no +yeah, so I know what you're talking about well didn't you say you got the police one the other day? +No, no, I couldn't get it +Oh I thought you got, what did you get from As Asda? +father got another set of lights +No from Asda you bought two Duplo things, well +No I bought one +one +that farm yard set +ah +the farm yard set for Katie but then, cos I haven't got her so much, so I thought we, she, I don't think she'd be into police, I thought if I bought police and that was dearer and the amount that I bought for Ben and Charlotte +mm +they'd better share the police and if it comes to the crunch I can get a farm yard for the birthday +you know what I mean? +Oh look at this, for a handy spot +Well I don't know where I put the Argos ticket at all now, got the one you want, in given you that one because er +Mummy +Yes +mummy +Charlotte +mummy,mummy +pardon? +Try? +Try? +yeah +Try for what my love? +try +Try +There's my thirteen pound and your +Oh you've got a speak problem today, the brain's not quite functioning with the mouth, is that right? +don't want big one. +Now is there anything else you want in town? +Don't think so Gilly. +Right, if we erm, nip off to Tesco's now, what's the time, half past ten are we going to go into Tesco's now Charlotte and have a ride in the trolley? +Trolley +Trolley +Are you gonna be a good girl in Tesco's? +I ain't got the reins with me, going to have a ride in the trolley, no +trolley +yeah you can ride in nanny's trolley, won't that be nice? +In the front oh come on Argos has now open, open on erm Sunday +Sunday , yeah it was in the paper +won't be any different to any other day of the week then will it? +Rainbow, +Ah? +what I've seen in the paper today, we're both gonna join today, er this week, er Council erm, er are looking forward to it, they approve of it bet you bloody County Council will +So we're gonna catch every traffic light on red now there was something I wanted to go into Wisbech for but I can't think for the life of me what it was, I must get stuck into this Christmas shopping again, really must so much to do and such little time to do it in oh he's, he's put that car down five hundred pounds, that price of that car was, that he got for sale on it seven, seven, nine, five, +What,yeah +then it went down to seven, fifty, now it's six fifty it looking good a nick in, he'd be lucky to get five I would have thought is there anyone you want a bit of crystal for? +Crystal +No +mind you it's perhaps not a good idea to go and have a look not with this +no +No, perhaps go one day +I think there's only one I actually need to +No, but give me a chance just to have a +oh with the women, it's men I haven't got organized. +What colour cords does Rob want? +Erm black. +You got the men sorted out? +Who William and Dad? +Yeah +No +Well do you want that Littlewood's shirt that I've got,still says that we're going, I get up on Sunday and go to and , no we've got to go to with that coat, take that coat over +Oh yeah +so if you wanted to go see if you change William's thing to the colour I want and if they had, he said he thought the shirt that the guy got with it matched it better than the smaller check, so do you wanna give him that check shirt that I bought him? +Yes, how much is that? +Nine ninety nine. +Mm +It was just a thought that I +mm, alright +can take it back +that it was a nice one , it was a brushed one. +No, that'll be al , I, I just haven't got a clue what to what to get him, I, I mean I'm still stuck for father women I, I seem to be getting on quite well for the women it's just finding some +What col , what col +come on granddad move your bottom. +what colour did you say? +what colour +cords? +Black why? +Well I don't know. +Oh I see, either black or navy, but erm, he's got more jum , more jumpers to go with black. +I've erm, I've got him a sagey coloured pair now you're gonna be a good girl today aren't yeah? +So is he alright for sweaters? +Erm +You know, I've got to work it out +Mum +what I've, +what William's will come to and +Well he's alright, he's got a navy sweater and a grey multi sweater +He'd, would he be into one of these? +One of these what? +Waistcoats? +Yes, for his cars +Well actually I've, I've, I'm toying with the idea, I haven't quite made my mind up, erm I've seen some wax waistcoats +Oh +wax jackets but they're a waistcoat and I've, I've ordered one really just to see what it's, it's like, because erm at the moment I can, I just try and get a bit closer to the door, I think we'll go round again, erm cos in the, in my club book at the moment, I, I can get twenty percent off and which brings it down to, it's twe well say thirty pound so twenty per cent off it brings me down to erm brings it down to twenty four pounds and then erm with my commission off that brings it down to just under twenty one pound +mm +so I'm toying, that's what I'm toying with at the moment, is this erm wax jacket +Oh. +well it's not a jacket, it's a sort, as I say it's a waistcoat. +Oh there's one right in front of us, look, blind as a bloody bat Gill. +Dad's just got in +Oh gawld, move forward a bit, so that's what I was going to get, but erm in BeWise they've got erm checked shirts and they're five ninety nine this brushed cotton thing, so I thought if I get him that waistcoat and a pair of cords, erm and get him one of these brushed cotton shirts that'll be that sort of colour +How much are the cords then? +What in the club book? +No +Cords in general? +eh? +Erm +Mummy +yes, we're now going sweetheart, erm +mummy, +I think they're about fifteen something like that, fifteen, sixteen, really depends whether you buy needlecord or erm this thickish cord +Well what do you want? +Well I'm, I'm easy, I mean the thickish cord erm, washes ni , they wear better I think the thickish cord but I mean erm and they're a bit warmer, but if you shop about usually you can get them erm the same price as the needlecord I'll leave that with you, right. +If we've got to go to Boston at some point, for the bras you see, so erm +Mm, oh, oh I'll leave that with you anyway +I'm a bit concerned you know, about this, just this one week's wages you know because I would have thought once Jack got his time sheet out he would perhaps realised that +Just ring Derek up +no but on the other hand I've got a certificate till then, so if the, if the money has run out for what he pays me +mm +and he claims back, I'm still entitled to er, +oh yeah +sick pay from somewhere aren't I? +yeah,you're allowed +and I, +you're allowed twenty six, er twenty six weeks off +I thought I was. +I'm sure it's twenty six weeks off on full pay and then you go on +Mm +whatever, whatever +yeah +they call it this week, it changes names every week +yeah +so you +it says +I wouldn't know that +statutory sick pay +yeah, but I'm sure the, the first one's for twenty six weeks. +Yeah, but I'm su , you know I did debate whether it was twenty +No, no, I'm sure it was twenty six +I thought it was six, twenty six +if Derek and he went away last weekend he perhaps stuffed it in here but then he drops it in when he finds it +mm +but Jack is so temperamental these days, I mean the other day he went by he said oh +I nearly forgot you, I mean one week he rang me and had it pinched out of his car +Yeah +and then he found it, stuffed down the bottom, so he don't know what he does with it +Oh so he found that? +Yeah it was in his car +He reckoned it was pinched outside the post office +yeah he said oh Margaret wages have been took out me car he said I ge , I'll get it at some point for you Margaret he said when I go at the bank but he said, yours was taken out Jack's car +What? +he said yeah and then +then he found it +and then er, I whether Jack or Derek came up with it he said it was found in the car. +Well I think you ought to ring Well's +Oh I will after this weekend, you know, because if +yeah, but +if they just bring one, I shall say well I've got choice then to say well is this this week's or last week's, now I don't want to give them that opportunity to say well she's worrying about one week's wages, I mean Jan could love that and that's given him chance to bring er, whereas if it pops through the door, or he comes +mm +I shall say to him, what's happened is this this week's or last week's? +mm, and if he says well I've already got last week's here. +Oh well then I'll say well that ain't. +Right come on then off we go. +Hello there right, and what do you want, some mushrooms which mushrooms shall we have my love? +Two lots of these two lots of mushrooms +oh, right a cucumber you're being a very good boy today, +yes, +no +you're not right, peppers I've got green peppers at home so they'll be alright, better have a few tomatoes, +right will you just sit there for a minute while mummy gets to pick the tomatoes oh, oh don't panic, no-one's going to run off with you +Oh sorry darling I'm not running off with you. +right tomatoes +Oh right, oh what cauliflower of course, yes can mummy just try and clip this on her cardigan cos it keeps coming off? +That's right, let's just hope we meet someone we know and have a decent conversation with them shall we? +Yes. +Right let's quickly catch nanny up, do I do cheese board for tomorrow? +No +Oh why not +green +we'll see if nanny can get us a celery tomorrow, I think cos that is really green +Mum, mum, mum +right go nan, nan, nan, nan, nan +nan, nan, nan, nan, nan, let's see if we can find her, shall we? +Daddy wants his chocolate +nan +oh I think we'll take him a bar of this +oh let's have a carton of custard, seventy nine right, we've got one of those, right I want pasteurized milk four pints one oh five, oh that's not, no great saving is it? +If I buy eight pints, right this will do +Oh +Oh, right let's just have a look and see what's here +no cream cakes today we're on a diet mm +no, eat by the seventh so what's today's date the sixth, tomorrow's the seventh there's no hold on sixth today seventh eighth is Sunday, no it must be the ninth, oh god I'm totally out of date I don't even know what date it is let's have one of these that'll make a change +apple and raspberry, apple and rhubarb, no I think we'll have apple and raspberry, well that's one less dessert I've got to make right were alright for coffee we're alright for tea, +Mum +Charlotte, now what's nanny picked up? +I can't remember +Oh I see can you oh,here +mum +Charlotte +Christmas +Christmas, yes my love +Christmas +Christmas again, well, goodness me, can you, also see if you can get me a stick of celery tomorrow? +Cos they're sixty nine here, but they're green, you know +What's that? +Oh what is it my love? +Erm, yes they did, er yeah you can pass me one actually, how much are they here? +Forty five, ooh +ooh +ooh +mum +His face is black, whatever do you get up to in the car? +Mum +Charlotte +mum +right we'll have another ground black pepper erm see if Charlotte can tip that one down the sink. +Where's the +Well I should think they'll be with them the +when we get in the car buy one get one free oh might have, have we had it? +Oh here, might as well, I wonder if nanny saw it oh it's one of these where you've got to send away for it +mum +well in that case then I might as well have a tested one and be stingy with it, erm oh where's sage and onion, oh here we are, sage and onion Right quickly go and find nanny again cos we seem to have lost +Mum +yes, we need one of these to make, clean out the deep fat fryer oh I want a french stick What's the problem? +Mm +You getting a bit excited? +Yeah +Mum +Charlotte +Yes when we get in the car anything else +I don't know where nanny is, here, here she comes I think this is a waste of time. +Thank you, I mean, we'll turn this off put that on when we get to near the check out shall we? +Perhaps have a conversation with someone up that end erm well I, I, I can't see anything +Oh they seem to stick in my mouth. +I don't hate them or anything I think they're really quite vile, oh +Well you can just wait, you want you can go in mine , erm do we could do with and that would be it for the interview +What +he was out moaning again yesterday, so I just thought it was getting a bit long round where the old septic tank used to be oh shan't and we've done Tesco's so that clock's right isn't it? +That's that out of the way +She +Want to go back via erm South , want, see what he's got, I keep, every time I come have a look +Always go for fish and chips +That's right , that's what he had the other day when they came in There you are, good girl er, what's the plan of action this afternoon? +I'm gonna make a fruit cake +Mm +Oh did I give you my library ticket? +No. +Bet it's due now see if I can win any of the luxury cars , I don't think it's possible to get that there was the,, you, you, you realise make an insurance claim for it, oh, now, now what's he doing? +Got his hazard lights on but he's moving +but he's moving +he'll have more problems if he carries on moving don't panic, all is under control I think there's one driving round the bend perhaps talk about it all, where's really first year he gonna know +No, +what it's all about oh pork chop, no it isn't proper pork +No. +all what erm +, what you thinking about mother? +You look deep in thought. +I, I I should have gone about eight o'clock tonight +Mm, mm. +you know so I, I you know you know it's just a peculiar +You know where all this stems from do you? +What? +Well from when you first had the operation and you was frightened keep bumping into you, and it's, I mean that's taken an awful lot of confidence away and you still got +Oh dear I feel worn out +Pardon? +Push it down then +Joseph's a good boy today +Yeah, very good. +Is daddy at home today? +Yep,he came, he came home from comes about +he comes in about late +Yes, cos you just walked in didn't you? +Yes, it was eight, half past and erm pardon +that's enough you two. +Excuse me +what's that over there? +Is that a train? +Is it a car? +Is it superman? +No +No, mm, mm, oh dear it's again, god. +wafting over +and erm Health and Environment people you know +and erm, it can't be good for your health +er +Oh it shouldn't be what do you say? +They're clean +a right cold old weekend. +I don't know one for you, good girl, there's a school there look like what Ben goes to, but that's a bigger school , god I've got to get myself organised yet for next year haven't I? +Oh god . +I says I'd rather can get Ben to next September, Joseph, Charlotte starts on September and Joseph will be the next one. +Which September could she go now or +She can't go till Sept September coming +Oh +ninety two , Ben er start, erm prim primary infants September ninety two, Charlotte will go at half days primary in September ninety three and Joseph's go at half days erm September ninety four. +Oh they start when they're four ? +Yeah , yeah and then they'll be able to stay Joseph and Charlotte will be full time in January they're allowed to, I think what it is, is, they're allowed to start when they're small part time but they're not allowed to go full time until the term they're gonna be five in and you see Charlotte will be five in March and because I think that comes before the Easter of the Bank Holiday, erm she'll be able to start January full time, where you're supposed to, you know, three years they'll all be +Why do you this three hours did you see it on telly the other night? +They were interviewing grown ups in the street and ask them er, so many figures and add that on, she said +Oh god +I don't really know, you don't know, well the answer was the whole education wants +yeah +to bring it back, said she didn't know, she said I don't know, and they asked another one, it was about what's a hundred and thirty one and thirty eight and something, not, +she tell you it was a, the answer should have been a hundred and twenty nine and they've got a thirty one in it yeah +Oh it's lovely +Eighty eight, forty one, something, something of that effect. +And he's got to add them together? +I think add them together, well there was an old woman of about fifty, sixty, she said a hundred and twenty eight, well he said you're one out madam, a hundred and twenty nine, well they were amazed themselves, the girl said well a hundred and twenty eight +Oh no +a hundred and twenty eight +What do you say? +Please you gonna get another dent in the back if you carry on driving like that +I was gonna say do you want +I don't know if I agree with this, giving seven year old, three hours tests, erm, I don't, see the child is, I mean can you just see sit Benjamin sitting down for three hours doing a test? +And they reckon what, what it, that's all it's going to be a three hour test I don't agree with putting a child of that age through a test I mean there's none of this nursery pick out who is slow on what, where, why and when, who's good at something who's, who's not so good at it, erm apparently and er, put a seven year old through this exam, find out what they're good at and what they're not, well the teachers obviously aren't doing their jobs very well. +Mm there was Ben's +He's quite good, but you know he, he, where, where he had that bash on his head +Oh god it stands out a mile, quite a good photo, it looks as though he just about +Yeah. +It is quite good, quite of Katie +Yeah she's Katie she bought what were her chances of re-ordering it you know +Well there was, but I can't remember what prices they want +Now, you've had two of me ain't you? +Yeah +and I owe you seven, is that right? +then what about the shopping? +I haven't sorted that out yet, I'll sort that out this afternoon. +why do you owe me seven? +Oh no, I paid you three, didn't I? +I don't know +I gave you three for the bird box, you gotta deliver me a bird box +Oh, right yes, yeah +I want Barry to find that, oh I see you owe me a fiver don't you? +Yeah +Yes cos I gave father the money for whatever it was, so, yeah, I gave him five pounds worth of change +and then there's erm, that shopping, bit of shopping you got for me +last week +I knew I owed you five +oh dear +You've got Christmas raffle tickets, get them all together, I've got you pounds worth on shelf the other week,and then I got your two pounds worth, I, two pounds worth on +Oh put it on the shopping list +No, I'll treat you to them, I make my lot to the nearest bottle with Unicare if I can, how many you've got? +Erm, I've no idea, not +Well I sent three +But I mean if I think, if I think erm, if I remember rightly you were, you were buying erm couple or three weeks that's my first lot, oh dear excuse me +Now what are they doing? +One's pushing it over and the other one's pulling it back, oh there isn't enough of them around as it is he's late isn't he? +He was late yesterday, got a brand new vehicle and, yet I mean if, if was getting here at one and yesterday he got to ours at half past eleven, so erm, it was half past eleven that's right, it was dead on, so erm,erm whatever's he going to be like when it gets near to Christmas? +Oh my goodness, they are out today. +Whatever is it going to be like nearer Christmas? +I mean he can go it's the bus that can't. +Yeah +Is this grass that you bring being delivered tomorrow morning? +Mum +Yeah, don't they come and +No that was the erm oh whatever was that called, it's the piece of wood that runs along the brick work +Oh +that the rafters sit on, on the +gates +Oh bum I ain't paid the mortgage, oh only in the I'll pay it probably tomorrow Charles had his money +I'll try and nip up there tomorrow , if not I'll have to go on Monday I don't think any, I don't think run away, what will Monday's date be, the ninth?oh well There are those new Chronicles that have got to come out +I don't think any are coming up now. +Oh I thought erm, they said they chartered them cheap +No, I thought they're all up there watching and +Dear me I think Daryll was hoping the roof things the best they can do was Saturday morning. +No, you're not getting out today, nanny's got a lot of work to do, and she's got loads of cakes to make and all sorts. +No, I'm sorry darling, come up later, we've got to go. +Let me get myself sorted out and +Nanny, nanny will probably have you up later when Ben helps Gramps to feed the dogs, and he won't do that either will he,feed him +Cake, cake, cake +Nanny hasn't got any cakes at the moment cos you've got to cook them, say bye, bye +No +yes, come on +Bye, bye +say bye, bye. + +Hey up, I got some +Some what? +we had five pounds worth +Did ya? +went into +saw a mate of mine +Oh alright +he says how many do you want? +I says two or three so he give us three +Oh +how much +this is like confession you know save you going to church on a Sunday +This is true +Is that where you got to now? +Don't look at me I didn't order them +What is it? +I'm not complaining mister, yeah he double +mm +Spoke to +las yesterday, yesterday evening +Yeah +Got some more here +Got more? +Yeah +Did you gather +all spelt differently +These +Oh got two the same +these are on the +just trying to contract me down +Yeah I expect to drive him +Yeah +got to go back and sort out any more problems we've got, that's where I'm going now erm +Why have you got more problems? +get a complete list of complaints of them +I thought that you got that already +Well I got +Rhys says I've got to do it proper and then into Chelmsford do, do +wasting his time, thank you, ta, he's wasting his time +He was, got smacked and told him +I believe it they've got, they've got so many local companies +Yeah +you know board, even Daleys in Leicester +Yeah +and they go and drag somebody up in +Yeah +and he says to them, the thing is when it goes wrong +You're stuck +well you've got a three hour drive to go and put it right +Yes +you know you just +that's it, another thing is +I don't think to ask, cos you hear from the way they were talking they were buying it +I don't know, but er +they've got themselves stuck on the nine o'clock appointment +Who's that? +Ropers, they don't know, well they know I'm coming in some time today, but they don't know when +Yeah +so it's +Crazy absolutely crazy +Yeah +well I +If this is where I +you know what I've been trying to get hold of a couple of one of these you know the phones, the phones that Donald's got +Oh not the, I thought you meant +yeah +Yeah +what for yourself? +Yeah +I don't like it +Don't you? +I don't, no +Certainly faster than the +I've got +I dunno erm, no I don't like them at all it's in fact I'm not even impressed with it I mean you look at the people with G six hundred and you look at the fifty six +and they're not a +Fifty six hundred? +No oh you think well that's not an executive phone that's just er a phone with a couple of buttons on it +Yeah +well you know what the six hundreds are don't ya? +No +That's the white one with the, with the green L E D display it's got the calculator on it +no, that's the fifty six hundred, the same model as O S D T +Yeah +the erm, the six hundred has got a separate power supply little black eighteen volt car +looks like a mark two executive station, instead of being L C D it's L E D display, green L E D +Rider's got one, you know as you walk in +Oh yeah, the +on the right +Oh that thing +Yeah, did you like them? +They're one of the best we've ever done, I tell you what +You know there's quite a few about, I've seen them, you know +Mm +must of taken about ten years to make +Eh? +its external goes in the back far superb +Yeah well, I put the paperwork in there and I +well I always keep it in the box so I don't get mixed up then, I don't start calling the mark three key board +I wonder why it doesn't work +Bruising quite well innit? +Yes your neighbours could do with a lesson in parking +Oh this one or that one? +Well I think it's Gary I mean he's left a gap there's room for just about a car either side of him +Yeah, oh I know I've said time and time again to them if you park up a bit, you know that house +his driveway that he put up and er he just about misses where the tree was, but he's chopped all the tree down so he can have his grass, I dunno, well even if it meant just supporting the piece of something above his car so he don't get any sap on it or ought +Yeah well that's a point yeah there's something +I didn't thought of that +It gets me how people drive a car sometimes with a +to look through +oh yeah +Well, well see how it goes, but erm I don't, the thing is you see they can teach you so much about laying different bonds and making patterns and doing portholes and things like that, that'll be handy to know, but obviously you're not gonna learn that until much later on +Mm, what about arches with a keystone? +Yeah they'll probably teach you that, yeah more than likely, yeah, you'd of touch the chimney flue, part of it, but the trouble is the qualifications have fall beyond of what I want to do anyway and considering it's gonna cost a couple of grand to get it +Yeah +it's not worth it because I'm not gonna sort of get myself into a position where I'm only likely, where in other words get a job as a bricklayer +Yeah +so it's really not worth getting qualifications on reflection so I want to do a bit of work you see, build myself a reputation that sort of thing +Yeah +and then do the odd wall, that's fine +yeah, I'm tempted to go around now looking at brickwork now +Mm +getting ideas +Mm +and probably incorporate one or two, can't do that on the garage though cos it won't, it's gonna be out of character +Mm, yeah, but er +the, Russ' erm, done, well he's already got a wall, just make it a bit bigger, an existing wall just taking it around the back so gonna do that in the summer I'll erm, well in the spring, yeah gives er a bit, a bit of a practice +Mm what's Russell like any good? +Yeah, he's quicker than I am, but he don't seem to be as accurate +Yeah +you know, by the time I've got about three bricks down, he's two +he's not as accurate as I am, no, but what I do I, I point mine up as well +Yeah +cos that way it gives me a bit more incentive, it gives me an idea of how it's looking +Yeah +whereas Russ just throws it together and don't bother pointing it, and to me that is incentive, I mean you don't do it when you build it I know you don't, when you're earning, it's a bit of er, a mark, a guide to how you do it. +And er, certainly take advantage of the half price +Yeah +thing , for twenty four quid for a hundred and eight weeks, you've got, you've got to take that, think it's coming on and learning, got the thing in there, start to progress it might get you, it's gonna get to the point where he says right, you know you've got them just about to sort of labour it's, you know, accurately with a fair amount of speed now we'll start sort of now being a bit adventurous, gonna get a lot more interesting. +You sees like cutting, you know you see these walls that are like that and they sort of go down like that and join a pillar and do the same again, just, instead of doing that you lay the soldiers across the top and you, you've got to sort of cut the bricks in between ain't ya? +Mm +Cutting bricks is another fault of Russ, it's all commonsense actually if you think about it, I mean actually we've drove round at night looking at people's walls and things like that and some were absolutely appalling, they've obviously paid money to have that done,so you, you, you can see it don't have to be absolutely perfect +Mm +although I'm, that'll only do for me +Yeah, these floors are impossible to +yeah, he's had his drive took across his back you know that there +mm +They do it individual +don't they? +Mm +yeah, there's one good there but, erm what they do, is they do it in concrete you know, but they can make it look like bricks +Yeah +they colour the concrete +Oh dear +and they, they put the concrete down, then they get this thing to put on it and it, it sort of moulds it +Yeah +it just textures it like +Mm +looks like bricks, another one they can make it look like welsh slate and things like that +Christ +Yeah yeah it's quite er What are those +audio monitors? +Monitor audio yeah +Monitor audi +Yeah it's sort of an L in shape of a O we've got +Oh yeah +oh +did ya? +Yeah, what I like about, what I liked about them was that they were dead flat like, you know if you, imagine it a sweet the weight for a sweet were from say ten ounces to twenty kilos +Yeah +you have some speakers if you, if you do a run like that you'll hit a pitch were it resonate with the speaker +Yeah +I mean most speakers have got resonate point, some, most of them are quite low +Yeah +but these, there are nothing, you know, there is no intonation at all +Yeah +it was just everything that you heard was +As it should be +Yeah like crisp you know +Yeah +Yeah, I mean I don't know how powerful they were that, I mean he weren't, he weren't belting on those but there was, he was playing loud enough to appreciate with its own you know +Yeah +oh it went really well, how much does it cost? +He was on about something about +apparently monitors for some reason the most monitor cost, monitor class speakers +Yeah +but they're infinite in there er +Yeah I've heard that +Yeah +Yeah +that's what he was saying as long as you don't what was he saying? +Some it you have to do +I think one rule that you have to follow and as long as you follow that particular rule then they can handle infinite amount of power, don't make sense to me +No +cos there are some +direct drive aren't they, you know a lot of them passed a couple don't they there's a +Mm +an output stage +Mm +and a really big +I think it goes through that way, but, I think these are direct drive, but it's actually a straight piece in +you know +Is it? +Yeah, straight into the back of the speaker so you can actually make the speaker do what you want like +Yeah +to within reason like +Yeah, so the amp has to be match, match it then? +Or do you have to, have som +You might, yeah , the trouble is it's gotta match down to be exact or +Mm, is his amp like that? +Yeah, his amp's got, yeah his amp was built for this particular type of er, I can't remember what bloody amp he's got now there were no, no particularly flash like, you know, er, er, they were saying something to do with clipping, I think it's to do with clipping they saying the power up, the power point's alright as long as you don't clip, because what happens is if the wave forms doing that +Yeah +you gain er an R M S +with power +Yeah +but if you, if you actually clipping +Yeah +the speaker's actually being pushed by the amp and staying out +Mm +you're practically burning the coil out so it's just a dri , a straight forward plattening +Mm +it can't handle any more so you got a, a +playing into the coil and it's not doing anything so it's just, just +in you know +Yeah +I think that's the point what he's making and that's what actually you know does the lamp damage that mm +Do you speak good for what they are? +Yeah they are +To say erm +that's what bothers me about it you ain't +You just ain't got the power though +Well the thing is to buy summat +like it you know, you, you can spend a lot of bloody money just to try and improve +That's right +them, you know +that's right, well the thing is these are, I was looking at the power today I, er not read it properly in the past, there only four rounds, these have got to be A, if you want both A and B on +Yeah +you've got to have A tons +Yeah +if you have, cos what, what happens is if you put A and B it erm it parallels them off, so if you've got two sets of four amps it's in two rows +Oh yeah +so it's no good cos it's four to A zones, you can run four providing you only have that channel +Can't say that +I suppose you could, but it's got A and B outputs you see +Yeah +but it says here nominal input twenty five watts R M S here it says maximum what forty watts +yeah, but that's a hundred I mean you can tell, I've tried it, it is, I, I ain't even had it half way and it's, you can tell it's overdriving them +Yeah +is that a four to eight, O drive as well, does it say four to eight games? +It does, it's hundred watts, yeah it says you can use anything between four and eight Os +Yeah +but if you want them both, if you want both A and B on you've got to have a +Yeah +but er it's measure hundred, hundred watts R M S into eight Os +So it's +Does he want fruit juice? +No he won't +yeah +What do you think to the board game on the back? +Oh, I thought it quite witty actually, yeah +Miracle Squares I think there's a lot of thought gone into it you know, it can't be easy to re er to, to just dream up a game erm, I like the one about you go to the last supper and the waiter spills soup on your trousers, the waiter, ha tell you else about the Marx brothers an'all, the waiter is er the king of Snowdonia and it's Groucho Marx, the, they've got this massive hall, and er these big steps leading down into it you know and as, as they're coming in there's somebody at the top and Ann says who's, who's walking in and they walk down the stairs you know and Mr and Mrs and the king has you know and he says oh the king Snowdonia is about to arrive, he should be here any minute now, he should be here dead on this time you know, he gets these big fanfare trumpets up da, da, da, da, the king of Snowdonia, and there's nothing and all of a sudden it flashes to Groucho Marx and then he's in bed with +and, and they do it about four or five times, you know, the king of Snowdonia, welcome to see and all the bugles going you know all of a sudden he appears in the middle of the picture he says oh I've come through the back door +Yeah don't know how many films they made do you? +No, they used to have a very good thing didn't they at weekends for +Did they? +Yeah a few years ago +They usually have them at erm Christmas time don't they, usually have a couple of Marx Brothers' films on +Yeah +Say you can buy them films if you want +Yeah I, I, looking what it says in erm, rather than take the load +Yeah +cos they're not, they're not, get round to it otherwise erm, I'm hoping they +do you know how long it lasts? +A couple of hours +Does it? +Mm Dave Allen's on that as well the only bit, I think I've set it for the Beast Master ain't I? +Yeah +Yeah well when right at the beginning of the tape is Dave Allen, but that's adult +Yeah +so, don't let the kids watch that. +Yeah +Do you like him? +Sometimes yeah +Mm +Only now and again though +Mm +Oh dear +What's the time then? +Still got the timesheets to do yet +I've got a load of paperwork to do tomorrow +Have ya? +what actually paper or the +Bills er, customer bills +Oh +sort out which bits are +you know +Mm, I've only got one charge me this week, you don't seem to get many now +Oh +I just have one connect, connect to +programme, programme one, ha only +get all these programmes for some reason, somebody allowed for it when they put the system in, mind you still have to check it I suppose but checked through it, tested it, took me about five minutes, still a minimum charge of an hour +try and include the customers into +as much as possible +Mm +I'm giving er a reduced rate for a while, so if anything goes wrong we foot the bill +Oh yeah +say like we're moving some equipment from one place to another +Yeah +we do all the disconnect cable and +yeah +check it out for them and they want a quote, say it takes two blokes an hour each +Yeah +quote them a couple of hours, we drop the normal rate, you know by say thirty percent to start +Yeah +and wrap it up into a package and say you know if anything goes wrong and it takes four hours then you +the same, yeah, cos if, didn't the Co-Op move or something? +Oh yeah they did er +And they fell flat on their face didn't they? +Yeah, they did a move like +Yeah +it cost them a bomb that did +Well we went to a solicitor's office, what was it Friday morning? +Thursday morning? +Friday morning? +And erm they'd moved the kit, got the electricians to do it and it took, it took three fuses when they did it, I mean the extensions fused on that particular system, the data pairs fused +Mm +and er they had to call us in, well Dick went out and er I think it was actually two separate visits so they must of, cos they're refurbishing the place you see so they must of moved into one office and thought oh you know this don't work, move into another office the day after, well this don't work either and he, he actually did two separate visits, whether they'll actually bill them for it I don't know , but I mean it's a minimum of an hour in both cases so +Mm +you know two calls, two hours +Mm I dunno what we get asked to do you know, I mean in some cases we can handle everything like pulling out bloody cables after other receive in that kind of thing +Yeah +Oh I had one bloody customer see if I can quote him to a complete relocate, it was only a bloody er systems, probably no taller than that speaker +Yeah +but it's like a P C a bit +Yeah +like a flat P C but a power system one +Oh them sitting on the desk? +Yeah +Mm +be like, be a bit lonely you know something like that, that kind of line +Mm +that width +wanted it relocated with all the cabling and that, you know er to the terminals +Yeah +in the same building? +No to another site +Mm +this is why it's +you know +Yeah +I says if we do it for you it'll cost you a fortune, he said +yeah +cos a lot of it's bloody play by ear you know the contract's +Yeah +put together +Yeah +if, they can't, they've got this system when they can key it in you know and comes up with a price, but it's that bloody strip +Yeah +you're better off just putting a bloody +mm +mm +Now is the time for the engineering man that is it yeah +So you, it, he got you to move it in the end? +Yeah I didn't do it in myself like, but we did, we did end, end up with +yeah. +I went to some er, what was it, estate agents erm Alan Orwood on King Street, I says to them er, what was it, want an extra extension put in who do you go to? +I says well where did you get the system from? +Communications, I said well you can either go to them or you can got to, we'll do it for ya, so it's really up to you, he says well who's the cheapest? +I says well I don't know to be honest, I says I don't deal with them, but we were talking about Mercury these cross-routing got one of these systems here +Mm +and then I said have you got, are these cross-routing it? +He says no, he says we've thought about it, I says well you really ought to have it I says if you're dial dialling a lot of erm, cos they dial a lot of these insurance companies and er mortgage lenders, the head offices, they're always out in Ottingham, I said the Mercury pin number only cost you seven pound fifty a year, I says you think you can save that in a week so er ha so erm he was on about it, he says who's the cheapest for that? +I says well we, we put erm a mailshot out for four hundred and ninety nine pound, cos the software and all the re-programming involved, I says Ford Communications followed it up, you know, they put a mailshot out for two hundred and ninety nine pound all in, oh he says I think I'd rather prefer G P T to them +Mm +which is erm now I'm dealing all the same company, maintenance and everything +Mm +so er we've got to hang on to it +Mm surprising how, especially the, the bigger companies as well they tend to want to do things +Yeah, it's only a small estate agent +Yeah it's, it's surprising how many companies want to like leave that side of things to un +Yeah +one company may handle the lot from +that's it, yeah, yeah +There's a lot of money to be made in that if you want little bits of, put things here and there that you can different +mm yeah I +even if he puts the cable in, did replace put the cable in then? +No we subcontract it +Oh yeah +we've got two subcontractors that we get in touch with, they just do it and then bill owes and then we uplift it +Yeah but effectively the customers are only dealing with plastic of +Mm +Yeah for their own in installation like +Yeah that's right yeah +Yeah +probably as we don't add any real value when we did little jobs like the cabling you know +Yeah +they come to us and all we've done is uplifting and gone bloody subcontracting +Yeah +whereas other bigger sites we do all the planning and everything you know +Mm +so we actually add some value to it +Well we do that, we do that, we, we know +Yeah +exactly what we've got, erm +Yeah +how many clients we've got, you know for updating, what the capacities are and plus er we don't know erm what sort of cable we've got in so they might have only a ten P a cable when they already have nine pairs in use +Yeah +and they want two extra extensions you see in a certain area, we obviously don't know that +Mm +only the contractors do and even they only know when they go on site so, but we, we sort of say you do this, you do that and then we contract to who can do it, there's some of them by er +usually +mm +I think for er even for upgrades we er the contracts do it sometimes which to me's wrong cos they aren't engineers +Mm +But what er what what needles me a bit, but you can't blame them cos I, if I was er a small communications firm I'd do the same myself, but, you see we won't sell now small systems through a sell +we do it through a dealership, like if you want a Cortin if you want a Sierra you've got to go to Cowlers or something you can't go to Ford +Mm +for it, they won't sell it ya, it's the same as us, we won't sell direct +Mm +so these businesses they buy from you know erm communications company, a local company or Nottingham Telephones or something like that +Mm +and, erm what they tend to do once it's gone in they'll say if there's anything you need, if you get any problems on the system or there's anything you want he says get in touch with us, he says and if necessary we'll get in touch with +and we'll sort it out ourselves and what they do, if a customer says oh there's a phone that's broke, or it's not working or something like that, they'll say oh okay we'll get in touch with the maintenance for you, you see, cos he's making nowt out of it, if you say we dropped the phone and broke it, well we'll send a and then they send an engin one of their blokes out with a replacement phone and charge him for a new one, once they say wants some re-programming doing, oh yeah were sending an engineer round and they get, the dealer then gets the money for it so all we get is the flack end of it you know so we, a service contract it's priced because, low because you know you're gonna make a bit on moves and changes +Mm +and that sort of thing, you know re-programming and upgrade, but we don't get that now because the er, the dealers are filtering all that sort of work off +Mm +which it can't be right cos, I suppose in a way it's none of our business but it is I mean if it gets to it, it puts our company in financial difficulties it means it's jobs on the line int it that sort of thing +Mm +that's why we've got to start cutting back there's no money for wage rises and that sort of thing so +what they are doing you see, an authorized dealer, well even a non-authorized dealer get hold of a piece of kit and then somebody say want this system, right okay, and they just have a big load of forms for maintenance agreements and all they do the dealer'll go along and put this kit in, B T'll come along and say yeah that conforms to regulations, sign here, the customer er sign here, the dealer send the maintenance agreement to us, we signed it, send it back, we've never even seen it, then we turn up and find that the main control unit's high up in the attic or in a damp cellar, in a cupboard where you can't see it, there's no light and stuff like that and we're taking jobs on like that and it you know, it's just impossible to work on them +Mm +you see, but B T are not interested in that, all they're interested in is that the wiring's, you know that the boards are +Mm +the series that they should be, but we do pre-maintenance inspections now +Mm +and, cos I said to the dealers for a long time you know don't put them under stairs, don't put them in store rooms, they get locked, locked up with vacuum cleaners and you can't get to the gear when you go to them, don't put them high up on the wall we can't reach them and they just laugh, but er, I think the last laugh's on us now cos er if I see one high up on the wall, I say well that, I say we're not accepting that, you have to move it +Mm +what you doing you daft cat? +What a life +Eh? +What a life eh? +I know, woke up this morning she was, she was obviously cold, cat was right under the covers, snuggled right up to me and got her, her chin on me arm like that, I was asleep Justifying Nation, did you like that? +Good innit? +Mm, mm like that one +that's quite good +What's that? +A new one where he got up a +Roger's got Transmission Vamp erm Velveting +Yeah, yeah +that's good +Yes +C D +Where? +Erm West Park Leisure Centre +Oh +It's a bit in the Midlands sort of +What Wendy James was she? +Mm, she stop the bloody ha, stop the traffic when she used to walk in you know +Yeah +Everybody but you was looking at her out the window, incredible she really was +Yeah, very short int she though Wendy James +Is she? +Oh I dunno +Oh yeah, she's only about four foot ten +Oh I didn't know, didn't know that +Mm right midget +Oh +Yeah +Oh she's quite bright though ain't she? +Yeah +Really +She's no thicko is she? +I like them, I like erm Transmission Vamp +Yeah +Crashers one of my favourites too your the only one as well +Yeah +Rich er Russ played that yesterday, I played it through that on his C D, put it through his Leek speakers, brilliant +Mm +I used to like a lot of that stuff you know the New Wave the erm +Yeah +The Stranglers er something +Do you want some more fruit juice? +No +Did you read that proper that bit? +Yeah most of it like, yeah you see if there's any +what +Young Bailey +Yeah critics did you see that? +Eh? +The critics? +Not under that one no +where they didn't like the Christmas, not the modern parents where they, they wouldn't let them have a Christmas tree, the erm the critics is was erm oh what was that about? +We saw it on telly and the er what was it Crispen or er Crispen something typical vegetarian names and she was criticizing the television Top Of The Pops and how they could do better you know and they got an art +Oh I remember you saying yeah +it'd cost you about a hundred thousand quid and by the time they've done it, it's exactly the same as what the other one was . +They're not tending to play Bohemian Rhapsody on the er radio so much are they as er +No +The Days Of Our Lives, they tend to play that a bit more +Yeah they need to +I've never heard that you know until, until it was, this round, since it last come out must be out of touch in me old age +Probably, perhaps you don't notice it so much do you, but something, something like that breaks the tension on it don't it I suppose +Yeah if you don't , if you don't like it you probably just put it to the back of your mind then +Yeah +dismiss it something +Yeah , yeah, what's the other one? +It uncle Vern, big Vern something? +yeah, he's all, all erm he's on the front cover ain't he, I'm not spending my Christmas in joking +he's, he's thinking the law's after him all the time +He's always wanting to top himself as well isn't he? +Yeah +eh? +Completely useless isn't he? +Which one's that? +It's the spook of Brassnick isn't it out of Dandy is it? +Was it the Dandy? +Sparky was it? +That bloody one +No the +cos Brassnick was the one with the square head and the cap weren't he? +Yeah, I didn't think there was a children's one +I think cos we used to have them on a trolley, yeah mm, I wonder if that +is the same that I, I think next time I get a Whizz I'll erm, I'll look cos there's a Zit comic as well +Yeah +I'll have a look and see if it's the same publishers, cos it looks the same kind of format, but then again it probably would be cos it's aimed at the same market +Yeah +so they're probably trying to muscle into the er that niche you see, but er brown bottle you find the critics? +No I ain't read this +Ain't ya? +no I've not read that +Take it until you've read it +No you're alright, it's +Keep the cheapskates parade they've got inflatable sheep and all sorts for set up here oh it's still number one then +Yeah +What you looking at there? +No it's er pair of tits on the front on the tree +On the tree house yeah, yeah, what's that one called? +Leafy Woods, The House in Leafy Woods +That's it, yeah what was the one er, the out of date Christmas puddings, did you read that one as well? +It's about four pages long that one +where at the end, you don't, you know, you expect it's haunted to be a real you know, she says oh no screw that we've got the market by the bollocks +the vicar Adolf Hitler +they've been playing loads of, out of date Christmas puddings +I don't know but the artwork's very good ain't it? +Yeah +You know the ideas there I think +The men's best buy in Leafy Woods when Frank taught the children many of natures wonderful secrets +Ha +what about these done, is it safe to eat these? +No Jack, cos you see these are rocks +Oh dear +A modern parent sitting there with a polo neck jumper on +loads of big teeth +Play all the record after er Queen aren't they? +What's that? +This is funny number one, probably Queen's not number one any more then +I don't know +put the radio on and find out +Something about Kwiksave not being in these supermarkets +Yeah +Yeah +I've always said Kwiksave are the best +Well, bloody hell only nineteen pence cheaper out of a bo basketful +Eh? +Only nineteen pence cheaper out of a basketful, everybody else is only pennies over +Oh yeah +It's still cheaper +we notice the joints of beef in Tesco gone up by a few quid +Is what? +gone up by a few quid from six pound odd to eight pound odd +Oh, it says here the basic necessities the things you buy have er have actually gone up, or they've hardly moved at all. +that amp's good +Is it? +Mm yeah I like that So when they picking his car up then? +Tonight I think +Yeah? +I was going to ring him up tonight gonna ring him up after the +So which one's having it? +Well the first one's already had the first chance +Mm +I'm gonna tell him there'll be no fetch it'll go to the tomorrow night the other one +Mm mm, you've done well then to get that one +I'm bloody sure I wouldn't of paid it no way, er, thing is though you see when you first look at it, it don't look a bad car, but when you start studying it closely you start to see just exactly what problems it's got with it did you point out the faults on it then? +Think he told him +that's why it won't +did he tell him about the hole in the wing then? +And the head gasket that had gone? +Said it, the bloke at the garage said they've changed the oil and that now he said it ain't bloody leaking +You don't get all that water from nowhere who choose the oil? +The bloke at the garage? +Terry did it +I know Terry changed it, yeah +but it's not +well it ain't run far enough has it? +Really I reckon there's something wrong, convinced of it, oh it runs alright once it's moving it's just such an awkward driver that's all I was glad to get out of the thing I was did knock the bloody er whatsit down, buses knock the er +gate way down to the embankment, were jogging down there tonight, I'll have a look at it mm on about it +Flogged it +No, none of them +yeah +the lad with the Porsche offered three thousand with four brand new tyres on it and a year's M O T, that's what he offered when the +when it was done +Yeah +and the other one never got back, he said he'd ring up to eleven o'clock last night, half past ten +Ain't you rang him? +Oh no, cos it er +you'll took that three grand +Pardon? +You ought to have took that three grand +Yeah, but that three grand the bloke changed his mind +I thought you said the three grand as it stood without the M O T and anything +The lad rang and offered Terry three thousand pounds +Yeah +and his dad came with him +Yeah +and said he wanted an M O T on it, so his dad offered but he scrubbed his did, he wouldn't let him do it +Oh +he wanted an M O T, so Terry M O, he +get four brand new tyres on +Yeah and then say I don't want it +Yeah, they, it was them who got us to M O T it +What you ought to do was to said to him give me a deposit +Mm +give me a deposit on it, I get it M O T'd if you change your bloody mind too bad +That's right +you can pay for the M O T +Yeah, that was like in good faith really weren't it, it's M O T +So what's happened now then has he changed his mind then? +Has he told you he don't want it? +Well I quoted the three thousand as it stood, and, but Wayne won't, Wayne won't take that, in fact Wayne says on the phone didn't he tell him to +thought he wanted an M O T and +Yeah +three thousand, the thing is it's got four brand new tyres +Yeah +twelve months' M O T just to what to pay what the lad had offered it +Yeah +for it +that's how you get Porsches innit? +Yeah +no ta +But the other one didn't get back to me +Apparently said +said he was gonna ring me last night and he's had plenty of time to ring tonight +Mm +so he's not bothered either +No +That surprised me cos they both were keen when +Yeah +they were looking over it +We see if anything happens really +The thing is +Cool down +the thing is, he saw it without an M O T and that lad wanted it, as soon as you've got it M O T'd he don't want it +Yeah +but he wanted it as well +they do waste your bloody time they're +I'm going to put +I tell you what that's the worse thing about cars, getting rid of them +erm I'm going to put in the paper again Friday, Saturday and then Wayne's gonna have to borrow it, it's his problem it's not mine, he's gonna have to sort it out +Mm +if he's gonna borrow the money and get it +The only good thing are at least his tyres +Yeah +if it's +or something like that +that's right +then I can, I wanted +he wanted four tyres? +Four, every one, mind you I knew there was +Borderline +I mean each one was borderline yeah +Oh +yeah I mean one point six millimetres something like +Oh that's right +A hundred and ninety three quid for four tyres +It is, yeah +I know they're all some +How much? +A hundred and ninety three quid +Mm +It'll pay, it'll pay Wayne to keep it now until he comes back and +Yeah probably so yeah, and at this time of year they're fetching so ridiculous in low money anyway, probably better off in the summer when the lads want to go out, out and about, well they're not bothered now nobody wants to go anywhere do they? +So erm +He might go and get a loan +put it in the bloody garage and forget it ain't he? +Yeah it's er I take the car back half term, if, you know, I don't mind driving it down there, but the thing is how am I gonna get back if I drive it down, it's gonna cost me forty pound fifty +Well wait until he's gonna come one weekend and you go down there and then come back together, oh why then again you're wasting your bloody, ha +He's going away next week +Is he? +Oh dear +that's why he's selling it, he's going away for seven +why? +Why not sell it? +No, but said it +oh +and then our dad lent you that three thousand when you moved in +he didn't lend me three thousand quid, he cut it off the will +It don't matter to me, I'm not bothered, it's just, it's just me and you should have this, look, it's his money, I'm not bothered, I've not +well you know if I, I said is it gonna cause any problems when he did it, cos it was er, it was er, to me +Not with you +No +not with you +No, but it was a loan to me and I said to my dad he was loaning it me and I said to him erm I pay you back and then when I went to pick the cheque up er he says er well me mum says he giving you that you know he says what we're gonna do is when, when they write the will out you'll get that much less than the others, I says well as long as it ain't gonna cause any problems +Not with me I'm sure it's not you know +and he says no I, I reckon I had a word with our Margaret she said no it don't matter, but if that's gonna be the case I'd rather give it to him back, I mean I've got it +Mm she +she says it should be you three, me three and +well I don't believe that, well +and +I'll give it to him back then +Oh don't say anything +I've got the money in the bank, I might as well +not after all +give it to him +not after all this time, he's probably calmed down now, but er if, if our mum and dad give me anything she takes the hump, but mum and dad can give Margaret anything and it does not bother me +Funny, a bit like that +I couldn't, I couldn't care less honestly +Well she always used to say, why you don't say anything, but she always used to say to, she'd never come down to the house, I mean I don't think she's been to my house, house five times +She don't +it does my house, in fact it come the other day when Kerry had to pick a battery up and I walked out the front with Kerry and he sat in the car and didn't even look at me +Yeah +yet when you go round to the house he's sociable enough +She bought me at my +didn't come in, I cannot be doing with that +I don't think she's been five times to my house in all the time I've lived there, now in the early days er she said that when it, hang on, she said she'd never come down cos she didn't like er +Mm +I thought well that's fair comment cos there's people's houses I'd stay away from cos I don't like the wives, so I mean, you know, that's, I don't go round, but the thing is she's been gone about what three year now, four year or something or however long it is why don't she come now? +Perhaps our Marg she's just that way +oh it don't bloody matter to me +A apart from that +she can stay away she can come, come round +apart from that +she can take her choice +that would upset me mum and dad, I don't want, they're too old to be upset +What? +you know +perhaps she's mellowed now, I mean the last time she went on with it, about it, was probably over a year ago, but she's still going on about it definitely a year ago not just +What to mum and dad or to you? +er she's on, I think she said something earlier, well she told me she said something to mum and dad earlier on +But she hadn't? +I don't know if she'd not +Liar +but she said I want, no, Keith had three thousand we ought to have it and erm, I said it's mum and dad's money it's got nothing to do with you, you've got kids, we've had that money +and erm, you know, they spend it on the six of them pocket money for sixteen years it all of them have left school now +Yeah +that's just how Margaret, she's just that way, it used to hurt me at one time, but I, I don't hurt easily +You know roughly +I'm, I'm, I'm +myself so much, that erm nothing bothers me, everything just rides straight across me back +I used to, there's one of the women I work with used is a shout and she used to upset me and +mm +Not that she saw me teased, but even now I can give her back you know +Mm +and I don't stand any nonsense from anybody, but erm +Mm +as far as me mum and dad are concerned I'm, I try and protect them +Mm +I, just erm, I'm +on now this year to have me mum and dad cos she never had them at Christmas and I thought it's not fair, you know, she's the +Right +me mum and dad'll feel it +Yeah oh don't, I reckon it was June who got +up there +Do you? +Yeah, I've never been the same since I was there you know +Are you? +No, no it's hard +I erm I always vowed I'd never let erm, never let anything get to me like that again +Mm +you know, cos I was in desperation then, but, nobody, I mean I just, I just don't bother, I don't let things bother me it's as simple as that +It's not good building +no that's right, yeah, I mean, I, I've said it, I don't care, but er I've said in the past that er, I think some of the reason me and Ann split up was, I mean she always used to say I never treated her right and all things like that, I did you know, and I do care for her, but a lot of the things was I never showed it because erm if anything bothered me I never know it showed and it didn't bloody bother me because I'd resolved myself after Julie that I'd never let anything bother me again +Mm well you have to put your defences down, but not all women are like that +Oh I know they're not +like them two, erm +No, well I've meet quite a few since and they're alright, they come and they go, but, I don't know +That Ann probably be alright now, but that's how she should ever so +yeah +Used to let them at me mum leave er my kids that she made of hers, yet she, me mum never treated them all the same +if that, if anybody would see that it'd be somebody in neutral position, like me, and as far as I'm concerned treat them all the same +Mm, mm +and they treat us all the same an'all +but she's, she's terrible, she's got a good point you see you got to let them stop, but it's just, she's got an extremely jealous nature +Yeah +and, er I always say that I am so grateful I am not, because I've seen what it's done and our Marg with Val her sister, we've both got sisters who are extremely jealous you've seen them, you've seen jealously eat away at them +Yeah +and I say that I am so grateful that +Yeah +that I'm not jealous yet and both of them +Yeah I'm the same +have got more than me +Yeah well that's it +I know I've got a detached house and Marg's got a semi, but Marg lives in much more erm +Con financial comfort +appreciate their lives that +Yeah +you know we've erm, we've chosen to have the erm +Material side +property +Yeah +Well not really material just got better taste than me +Why is she +what's better about her house than yours? +Well it always looks beautiful anyway +Well that's only cos, why is it? +So you think +Yeah, but so is this +Fucking all secondhand +ah, but the only bloody reason it's secondhand is cos it's the, that's the style you want +Mm +that's why +I'm happy with this style +it's the style you want +Yeah I'm happy with it +you can't get new stuff, you can't go out and get something new like that, to that quality +Mm, I'm happy with it +Mm +not +I well I'm on about doing some stuff I am cos I can't get, can't find what I want, build my own yeah +We've had, we've had the video repaired and +up to date, one hour's work +Yeah +no, no parts thirty quid +You're joking +I'm gonna ring up to that tomorrow +Is it got service +actually it was thirty five but five of it was +one hour, thirty pounds and I took it to them +You took it to them? +Yeah +Wonder if they've charged ya for er +Well we charge fifty pound an hour you know +Oh do you? +Is service +I don't know er +well probably gone to the best place maybe it's right +Well that's right, yes +Well Terry said it was because, we took this, we took that, we took, taken a place on Pranting Street and it still don't work +Yeah, it +yeah, so we said next time we have anything we'll take it to across the +So what was wrong with it then? +The cassette kept getting stuck +It's only the belt usually +It says on +wind it up +Wind it up have they? +re-line cam gear and flat gears on cassette housing, red, idol and cleaned up +I think the speed up +Such delicate things +Oh they are, much +you can't bloody see what's happening can you? +Oh it's a +no +I say thirty, we've had that either eight or nine years I can't re I can't remember which, that's cost us thirty five quid in eight or nine years +Can't grumble +No +I said if we had a maintenance on it, maintenance was thirty odd quid a year, over eight years it would of cost us two hundred and forty pound +Oh yeah these maintenance contracts are the lowest, I mean I took one out on my mum's C D player because they'd, they'd had trouble with it, er multi play, turns out it was the stack one they had trouble with not that one, but it was only thirty quid for four years I mean +Well that +Yeah, well I bought, I got the C D cheap enough, you know when I bought them that mini unit, that went just after a year, that bloody thing when it packed up, do you remember it was playing in night, in the middle of the night and my dad got up and said what pratt's playing music, it's his own ha +That was lightning weren't it then? +Well I do it probably was actually but it was the switch that had gone, maybe lightning had hopped across the switch, yeah, but erm, that's all it was it was the switch, but er, I mean the thing is it went wrong and they had to pay for it, okay it's only a tenner to have it done, but it, if a C D player, I mean if the carriage goes, you know, sixty, seventy quid, you know I'm buying these electrical things, it's, because it's a burg lock, I can buy them, get them a warranty with it an'all, then it's took the burden off them. +My dad's pleased with the compact disc, erm, my dad appreciates a good sound don't he? +Yeah +Really pleased +appreciates a good sound and puts that bloody crap on, ha +What's he put on? +Oh I don't know that stuff with, er I dunno, Acker Bilke or +Mm +When I first got it in the I was a bit, well it don't sound too hard, bit down hard, but then again they were in a rush, I said there's your present and I gave it to them, and they unwrapped it and me mum says oh come on we'll be late for the club, cos they were getting free drinks at the pub, oh she, she didn't even want to look at it, I said oh, and she looked at it +To see +and er me dad says ooh it's a video recorder and he, I says no it isn't, he says it is, it's a video recorder, I says it isn't dad, I said Christ I bloody bought it +I says have another look, he says what is it? +I said it's a compact disc player, mum says oh that's nice, she says what do they do? +And I said, I said pour us a tea, oh she says we'll be late for the pub, I thought oh sodding hell +Yeah +so I says alright put it down +She don't think and as you get, you get older they get worse +Mm +erm, don't, they just don't think cos our kids you know they'll have money erm, say they had money and bought them presents +Mm +and I think the lads they used to get them some chocolates or something, she says oh more chocolates I've got loads of them +I know I bought +Do you know it's +and it what not since she's been owed +They, they still remember that +Oh aye +and they, that was when they were kids and they still remember it +It's not cos she's it, cos she's like that you know I bought her summat, when ours were not, not very old, I didn't know what to get her and I bought her an ornament, she says oh I wish people'd stop buying me ornaments I've got too many, has to dust round them I thought you'll get sod all next year +I've had that, yeah and that +you'll get bugger all +yeah, I think our Julie bought her some talc, she said everybody's bought me talc and that, and our Julie said this year she don't know what to get grandma cos whatever I get her she says she don't want it +She moans about it I know +and that's, that's just it really she don't think does she? +No, she bloody ought to after the first couple of dozen times, but anyway, when they come back and we got back at night and we started playing them and putting things on er you know they got to like it +Yeah, that's it, my dad said it's a lovely, well it is +That's right +I wish I could get another one, it, I can't get one of them +Oh +same, the same as that, cos the idea was get two the same and I've got one contract, ha +Mm +I've thought guaran two machines you're guaranteed for four years then, cos they didn't write the serial number down, so if I got two machines and it goes faulty I just send it back and say this machine's faulty, they don't know how many I've got +Mm. +Morning young man +Morning +How are you? +Alright, have you got it? +how long? +Five minutes +Yeah, we've been to +oh you've found it +You say sometimes it comes on on line three? +Line three, yeah no, not on this one +So you've got +yeah +goes onto there +Aha +yeah +The first thing to do is change the erm change the +cos that, well I tell you what I think the first thing to do is do a system reset if that doesn't change the display decoder +I think +if that, yeah, if that don't work escalate it, because it's a loan problem, you've done everything you can then +What about C P U? +Change the C P U? +Bloody hell, mm, well I'd escalate it because it's a known problem, they might come, turn back and say change the C P U. +Well you know what you can do +They're not they're not gonna do anything about it +They're gonna ask if you've changed it +Yeah they will yeah, well you can have a word with them first, you've got to have a word with them before you escalate any way +Yeah +but I, I think that's the erm +but I mean +that's the answer +I, shouldn't I, that decoder's got to er +It's got to be told something before it does it yeah +Yeah , you'll, you'll hear that actually come in, if you disconnect one of those legs, if you disconnect that blue wire on there and then cease the intercom and put it back down again you know the relay clicking you'll hear it come in and go back out again, there you go +So the twenty four volts is here permanent +Oh yeah yeah yeah I say reset the system, do a system reset and then see how it goes, it's all, it, it er it's the main problem them, and there's no cure for it. +We've spent months of shelving and then in the end he just says oh sod it, just took it out for an eight one six then. +There is one other cure +What's that take the bell off? +What can you, I don't know if you ever, ever came across any of these er the mark two that want an extension and I think it would project a +producing stuff +Mm +and it was er +Oh acoustics +Yeah, that would cure the bastard, cos it would only ring when this rang +It would also ring if you pull a page out. +What was it an amplifier with a speak on it? +It's a little acoustic er coupler type +What does it do sense a sound and then ring +Yeah +ring a bell or does it actually pour out of a speaker what comes out of a speaker? +No it rings a bell +Does it? +Yeah +So if I call a paging call out and a paging call comes out it's gonna ring the bloody bell +Not necessarily +I don't particularly want to get involved in anything like that +Yeah +but I tell you what you know the mark two, have you ever displayed a coder and it rings, rings the bell when the intercom rings, rings the bell if the trunk's designed to ring and all that, you know when you get the, you put a call on hold and it comes back and it goes brr, brr, brr, the bell starts going ding, ding, ding, a right noise and apparently that's standard in the system I think that was a bit of an oversight to be honest with you +So the, it's not worth changing the data and the +Not data to the +no I mean change the data +to the phone +No I tell you it's wasting my time it's a known problem +Say is there something on the data +well whenever I've had this +Clear this rubbish up +Well you know the one at erm the environmental +Mm +the erm the displayed decoded it's actually mounted next to the kit and all we'll do is take twenty four volts out, volts out, they'll take the, take the data off the kit itself and then just bring twenty four volts out +Yeah +you know, maybe cos the signal's stronger now I don't know, but that's the way to do it there, well you've got to bring twenty four volts out anyway +Oh yeah I'll get +you can take it here or you can take it there, it's just that the, the displayed decoder is safer +Mm, but what I can't weigh up is there's nothing wrong together in the first place +found the twenty four volts +Where is that? +Across there through that gap +The very, the very strays are where the wire goes, if you look at the drawing there a bit er, it actually comes in and out you know, one, one of them is actually the same, it actually just comes in and loops in and goes out again and you may +find that you're actually on the same potential there, could be low potential and difference between the two that's all you need +Something there there there it's them two, it looks like it could be them, with them round together +Yeah, that's right +So weird +Oh very weird, yeah, I +preferred I mean there must be some more, how many more lines are there, look, hang on then +Well +there you are +end of the bloody wires are causing that then is there? +Why? +They say +Say, say that is the bell +Yeah mm +and they're your data +mm +they're not paralleled off +Oh +they're not paralleled off +It's a weird way of doing things, it's extremely, it's, it's weird, if you look at the drawing +I don't even need to look at the drawing for this +it's only six +well to have to see take the bloody thing off +Oh shut up moaning we've got, aha I'm going down to er Wellingborough in the next +Wellingborough? +Why what you gonna say? +Your going to Wellingborough that's a bloody turn up for the books isn't it? +I upset George the other day +Why? +He says well I, we were on about sort of and he says bring it up at the next meeting, I says +I says what meeting's that? +He says, the next regional meeting it's being held in Neesden he says you can go to that one can't ya? +I says no I can't, he says it's not very far, I said it's not the distance that bothers me it's the fact that you want us to sit there till eleven o'clock at night and not get paid for it, he says yeah but if you want to say something, I says I'd say something if I thought we'd be backed on it, but we're not, oh I'm not going anywhere to be if I'm not being paid +I'm not getting involved +I didn't know Dick was er Bob, moving, er Dick 's +is it? +Yeah, cos he covers Derby, he lives in Calverton, he comes through Nottingham to get to Derby, I live in Nottingham and I just do Nottingham, I'm nearer to Derby than what he is, near as door bell, I think it's the way they've laid it out though +Well they're trying to send +it is +they're trying to send me on +on that what? +well why don't you go? +That's not on my patch like +It's my patch, suit me here +Well I did make +do what +company here +never heard of it +yeah well it did didn't it when the weather's like that +There we are +if you're gonna do that, I'll tell ya if you switch it off and switch it back on again if, if it's the problem I think it is it'll cure it, if it's which I don't think it is, it's the other one that's incurable +Incurable +It's incurable the reason I say it's incurable the system's too +Eh? +The reason I say it's, it's, the system's too old to go back to the Japs and say get this sorted out, rewrite the software because they're just gonna say not likely we haven't made it for ten years, or whatever seven or eight years or whatever it is, it's out of date, they're not gonna start working on the system that's that old all they'll want to do is to sell you a new one +Yeah +that's what we'll do +are they overhead them cables? +They're not are the oh they are, the end there +bloody hell +no I don't think it's in there, it's just description stuff, sizes and what have you maybe on the right section there, it's the one where you might wire the L J Us up as well, that's +section, ah I think it is, that's it the one with the M B F to +what's that? +Station socket +Right +box +extension belt there it is next page there you go hear that mate, it just goes in there look, and that, oh hang on a minute no it don't that goes to the bell, through the bell, back out again and then er +Come out through the bell, back through the bell on to there and back to there +That's right through this big +that's right, so you'll probably only just seeing +Yeah +circuitry there and then there's your, your data +which you, you do parallel off +Yeah +like a yellow and that just says ring, ring, ring that brings the lane and it just does that, that's that belt, all it's doing is taking it through them relay contacts +Yeah mm I see +which is why you don't see a voltage at the same leg really +Yeah fucking weird though innit why it should suddenly start pulling like that +That's the way they are, have, have you any extension, extensions put in? +Tell you what it could be, ah hang on a minute, I ordered an extension for a bloody for a phone for that office, it could be the phone that's doing it in that office there I know, I know it could be corrupting, you know on the mark one the big one, the old generation mark one +It's been going on for months +Has it? +Two or three months +Oh two or three months +Yeah, but it's got worse and worse +Oh right, yeah +and he said it's got worse since he got the new switchboard operator, which makes you think +She's probably putting calls, she ain't cos we've tried it over there, you pressed intercom, put it down, it, it does that +Shouldn't do that should it? +No, I tell ya, there's about four in the company started doing it altogether, oh this is about the fourth one I think why that's what third +told me I was talking to Brian day before yesterday, second line, he says there's loads of them doing it and it can't be cured +Well all we can do then is reset innit? +Yeah, let's do a system reset and +you sure you put everything back together that end first +Very careful, we'll do that when we get over there, ha +Let me get me glasses +it looks more like the Selby's one than the erm, than the environmental +Oh, I mean +cos the main environmental was er, it did it on its own, with a completely empty switchboard, no calls on five o'clock at night, everybody had gone home and the bloody thing would just sit ringing, ringing, ringing, ringing and erm +I know this is only when the switchboard's busy +Yeah, well you know this, this Selby's one that was the same, when the switchboard was busy it would er, if you, if you sees line three and played it down, well if anybody sees line three and played it down it used to do that or if you sees the intercom that did it, says it's more like the Selby's one than the new one +Well I +and that was incurable +well that was only there +If you see line three on +You got the key? +You've got it +I ain't got the key I ain't got the key you had it +You put it in your pocket +I didn't you've got it +Right then, what you got there for? +better tell them first +You tell them can we just switch the phones off for a couple of minutes, no, no calls on are they? +Cheers, okay Dave give it a good thirty second +bet you've got a screwdriver over there ain't ya? +Got to put this one back together while we're waiting +Oh +What you got after this then, d'ya know? +Dunno +mm +That one of Selby's you know it was fine until they put an extension in just er a key station as soon as they did that this one started acting up, so he said it's only since we did that, he said it happened the day after we put that in, I said okay, disconnected it, still did it, disconnected it at the, end here, still did it, erased it from the program so it didn't even know it existed, still did it +yeah, I, er +wait for the light to come back up +have you connected it? +Yeah, even connected it on the end here, the, the station and set this display decoder up and it even did it there so it was nothing to do with the live lamp wire, the way they routed it we thought that perhaps rerouted it to the cable or something like that +Yeah +nothing went round and unplugged every phone out, wedged every one out cos we thought it might of been a station that's going down, cos er I'm saying about the mark one, the old +two sixty, if you've got a bad phone it used to drag the paging down for all others, where if you've got paint in the socket +Yeah +or a bit of mould in one of the sockets it used to click all the phones when anybody made a call and er, all, all sorts of things that, I would of thought ah there's a faulty phone somewhere and it's degenerating and er we went round and waste every single one out, every single one, went to this extension pressed line three, play it down and the phone rang, I thought right it's not a phone, I changed the cabinet, I changed all the cards and the cards in one big one, I had one three +so it weren't interacting between the two, everything had changed and it still did it, were a new kit, got a cabinet of setting line, changed it and it still did it. +Well it st I mean it's something stupid innit? +Because the simple reason +I even went in at seven in the morning when they've got no compressors going in case it was the compressors dragging the whatsit down +because to me it's, it's something like that everything, it's gotta be the C P U innit? +It's gotta be something telling that bell to ring +That's right +and you would think if you change every bloody thing out +That's right +whenever it was telling it to ring +That's right +to stop +Yeah, well I got a kit there and I wir I wired, just put it on the floor and it +light on the wall, had it all connected bang, bang, pull them erm, er wired them all up and still did it, that mine? +Or yours? +Yours +Is it? +Yours +Yours +Call one please ring Brian before ten thirty, it's ten twenty nine now so, oh bloody car phone +It's like Selby must be decoder number right round here +No find it next to the unit, next to the +That's what I like you co , you depend on someone helping me out and +Don't +out on you +Well I, I wonder if it does occur again, happen again +Yeah +do decode it it's hell of a run you know innit? +I did that at Selby's, I had the decoder, the new cabinet, everything, I had the decoder there hanging on the floor like that, I wired it up and I pressed extension sixteen and away it went, it said four there and the display decoder was there about ten extensions +And it was about ten, sixteen that was doing it +I think it was sixteen yeah, fifteen or sixteen, I'm sure it was sixteen +Aye you said, like you say it could be se +but third lines +that is something that'd happened all of a sudden, of about four throughout the cou , well three at the time throughout the country have suddenly gone like it within about a month or so of each other , and they've never had any trouble before, but I was talking to Brian and he said that's a load of cobblers, he says it's been doing it for a long time and there's loads of them doing it. +Unless we +and see what's been used +Yeah well if, if I get called backed to +it, or I'll change that display decoder first, I mean that's been reset now, forget that, er +Aye +yeah, well if you can get out o, f of that though +You can +Can you, what on eight three one? +Oh dear +I mean I figured it's gotta be something date, dated I feel +Oh aye, yes +cause it to do it +Well I thought that, but er +you know, that was my +to do it, but then again that was in it all the time, you know, it just don't make sense +funny how they're both garages weren't it? +Mm in fact, eh I tell you what +Over head +all, yeah they're not, round the corner, all three garages is this is Selby's and there's erm, Selby's is Volkswagen repairer and er, oh no, yeah Lee invite +it was in their garage where the lorry was. +Of all the systems we've got three garages it's happened to, radio station +I think that wants putting back together there +Eh? +If you want to ring Brian +Cancel that will clear it up +Put this one back together +I thought you'd on we'll do a reset and see how it goes, and just leave it if it, if it clears it erm that's fine +And if not I think the next thing actually is to move the decoder or change the decoder +Change it, wow, bloody step +That's three times you try to fall that, if you have an industrial injury +Three steps to heaven that's what it is, kill myself next time +Somebody said did you see the accident, no +I ask did I have my eyes shut when I kicked him, er +Free line now +Yeah I just clear it er I don't like the idea of doing that actually +Why? +What using it for er +without asking, it comes up on the er have er, I'll ask her first hello it's the G P G engineer love, yeah, er my pager's just gone off, is it okay to use my telephone just to answer it please? +It is okay is it? +Alright, thank you, ta +O'Connors again +O'Connors? +Yeah +Where's that? +Yeah +What's happened there? +I haven't been there for over a, a year or more I think last time I was there +On a tray there's service +Is there? +I had to put the phone down because of you +Oh I do apologize profusely, profoundly whatever it is, no, no I was there when you bought it +I know, I've gotta get a frame +You've got a get another a picture, it's crap +That's not a bad picture that +Yeah, it's two-toned as well, it's green and blue +Blue and green +or is it just I can prove it's green and green because it's a quester two tone exterior with a +so that roof's supposed to be green then +and that on the top of the boiler is definitely not blue, even though they use blue ink for it +That's definitely green cos it's got green on it +right +Brill news +What? +got a disco on March twenty eighth yeah +it's not that I don't wanna do it, it's +Not the people that book with you +Yeah +Yeah +it's relatives +Yeah and you feel obliged to them to have it for next to nothing +I feel obliged to do it er for more +No +No, I've been saying they booked me about two months ago and I've been saying that they have a deposit +mm +Well tonight +Mm +one of the lads at work come up says there's a disco on March twenty eight and before I said I'm already booked, I said yeah, he says er how much do you charge, I told him and I says well if you let me have confirmation as soon as you can and a deposit of ten or fifteen pounds as soon as you can +Yeah +as soon as you know for definite +That rides over the, the relatives +it overrides them +Yeah +I'm gonna pass them on to one of the other bods at work +Why does somebody else at work do a disco? +One of the girls at work, her brother does them, er so it's got me out of it +Yeah +never get out of it +Well I don't want to keep a date open for no reason at all and I mean say +That's it, yeah the general yeah, if you tell them to say you don't want it you've had it ain't ya? +Yeah +You know our Wayne don't ya? +We're back on line +Testing +right that one.. +I've got +excuse me I tell you what I like them, them +Two boxes of +chicken +Yeah I know, a terrible oversight there, I've got erm you know them chicken nuggets that I get, have you seen them? +Them cheapo ones from Wallis? +Or they might be turkey ones, I go to Kwiksave +you get thirty in a bag for about well just erm for a couple of quid I think, or you get twenty four in a bag, oh I don't know, you get something like that anyway yeah +I think I'm gonna have to start eating some stuffing +I thought the erm, I should, I should get it +so erm +tell you what I was in a bath this morning +yeah +You know what I mean +Yeah +no you didn't you said you were gonna leave it +Oh yeah, that was it, yeah, yeah, muttered it under my breath as I walked out, yeah, I'll have to get in touch with that to say if got that erm +yeah, yeah +I say that amplifier was absolutely useless +ha +He says need another wire +Who says a what, a chap at work? +Yeah +Well we can get an extension lead, mind you it's alright you +it's not the same is it? +You may find that's a moulded plug and it, no that end trigger, is it a variable speed trigger? +No +Oh I was gonna say I bought a variable speed trigger for mine cos its back up it erm +But sometimes when you're using it it don't quite work +Yeah, mine, like that +Ha, see what he means it's a switch +Is it? +told him it might need a new switch +Yeah, well that's why a switch, a switch on mine, so oh no the cable didn't come +I says to him be prepared for a bill said I don't mind paying for one, but +My last one was eight pound summat but mine's a variable speed reversible and all that +About four quid +there's no slow start on the reverse I got it while I was working in Leicestershire so I couldn't really take it back it'll cost me more in petrol +mm +what, I didn't, did you call +special on Sunday? +Why? +Well Les says er when we got out the car and you went he says bloody hell that uses some juice don't it? +I said well he reckons it does, he says when he filled up at the garage it were full, he says we hadn't got back and it was between the half and three quarters, I said oh I never looked at it +Yeah +Is it really that thirsty? +Does about twenty, twenty three to the gallon +What on a motor like that, no surely not must +Right +do more +at the speed I was doing it keeps it to that, if I'd of kept it to fifty it would of been a lot more +You what, well come on we were only doing fifty on the way back +Yeah, weren't on the way there though +I know +seventy minimum on the way there +Do you think it's worth it though for what you get out of it, well I mean you obviously do, you like the car don't you? +I like it, er pulls the looks, it don't pull the birds but it +yeah, yeah, soon I'll call you logo he went running +yeah +what is it? +A bit of a funnel +saucepan? +oh you're deep frying them are you? +Deep frying is a lot actually is a lot better than shallow frying +Mm +cos it seals the food as soon as you put it in +Does it? +Yeah +So you don't get so much fat in it, yeah I'll have to get a deep fat frying pan then, for all the fat +Oh it's true +for all the fried foods I'm not +no that's what I mean yeah, I've, I mean I ain't got +for all the u fatty foods I eat I fry pasta, deep fat one, deep pan, oh I don't know, you know what I mean +yeah +switch that's gone, it's proving it cos it's a bastard +Well you, if it's intermittent an'all put +This +the toggle fish on to use for a week if it cures the +no +I'll get a longer lead as well for it +Mm +about five metres of wire, is that long enough? +What powers the drill? +is it? +Oh I, I had one of them oh would blow off wouldn't it? +What is it? +yeah, it's says low on it oh number, three thousand and under, one point eight amp, four hundred watts +Yeah +expect it to be that thick then +Yeah,thing is getting them wires out +Oh screws from under the side +Fuck off +What, what you on about? +Oh brilliant +Don't you know how to do them? +Mine, mine was mine was erm if you've got screw contacts on it, mine have well to say that these er these switches are so unreliable you'd expect it to be erm +these be a bit user friendly, cor blimey, just cut it about all things down and put a chocolate strip in, plenty of room in the handle +Oh really +You really want that one off though don't ya? +Did he say he wants a +as well? +Yeah +It's a bit of a pain int it? +Seven or eight years +Oh I tried it for her +That's alright then +er, I'll put a new switch on and wire, it ain't the wire at all it's the switch +Mm +have to double that, cos when you wiggle the wires here what it is when you wiggling the wire you're moving the thing contact, I said if you wiggle the wire it's alright it's sort of coincidental +Mm +it might actually just be breaking the wire there +Maybe, just remake it +I can't get them out, you can see it's struggling +Usually is the wire +Not on them it isn't, it's usually the switch +Eh? +It's usually the switch +What on these? +Yeah +I dunno I think my jig saw went, that was the wire, I just cut it off and made it off again and it was alright it's short enough so it don't go through the window when you throw it +Break the window to get the bloody wires through +it's what? +Where to get the ideas for the lamps and that +Just +what it is, it's these modern new +they're not that bloody brilliant +Mm, I can still remember Ann's face now, oh this bloody thing, got it and threw it, no, no +Yes +it just stopped short of the window, well no it was quite short you know, you could just see it aiming for the window, luckily it was plugged in +It stopped it dead +it stopped it dead in its track, yeah, couldn't get to rewire it after it though it snapped it a little bit. +Yeah, just rewire it up, just try it for er, you know, I mean it failed straight away, if it don't fail within half an hour then your er you know what it is, save yourself getting a switch. +Yeah, scrub the switch up that'll do for a change, paint it black inside the hose thing. +cos if it's not the wiring, the switch is alright +won't be able to what? +Won't be able to get the +why? +a brand new blade, if working on something and +working away not minding my own business +Mm +working away +Yeah +Oh did I laugh me just about done with these +Oh and I thought there were a couple of speakers +Oh, don't know where they're from +no not really, not proper stand over here +no I'm gonna turn the fan on, oh Jesus Christ +mm +and it always has the same thing +Yeah must be want what they swallowed it and they're swimming round +Oh shit +Zoom, zoom, zoom +What time is it? +Half past seven, what d'ya reckon then +do ya? +have you +teletext? +Yeah +Oh I don't know how you work that +Just press a button +go on and says you wouldn't mind my telly +just happened to mention in the night says I'd like a white telly you know, go a bit more with, with the decor +a cream, yeah, a cream telly you know, oh I'll have that one he says when you sell it, oh Christ almighty, I thought I was, excuse me perhaps I, I would like a teletext one, just get, you know I don't want, I'm not sort I don't like the colour, I'd rather see a white one in the corner +Mm +get a white telly with teletext, you know I suppose I could put that one in the bedroom +yeah, yeah +oh dear +eh? +Oh that's sunken there innit, yeah don't think there's yet an empty seat +They've got people standing on top an'all +Yeah look at that right down to the water line though innit? +Yeah +Them on the bottom they're bound to get their feet wet aren't they? +Mm These countries are amazing aren't they, they're so +in the cities and yet +Mm +out in the wild +Mm, oh, aye look at that oh can you imagine waking up to that, well probably wake up blind +Yeah +tossed over a few times in the night, burnt me eyes out +yeah, yeah I'd like to visit somewhere like that you know +Do what? +I dunno, as you say to see the culture things like that but it's a bit difficult to put niggers down in their own country well what's that then, is that, is that just the ferry between an island or something +Look for this boat it doesn't even stop, blimey +Amazing int it you get something like that and it'll go forever +Mm +Blimey is that the +a bit wicked innit? +Did you hear that? +Yeah +Can you imagine if they got cholera on that what was that boat that got cholera on it, it wiped them out, not the Mary Celeste was it? +no +mm I reckon pirates had a go at that you know +Makes you wonder don't it? +Mm +What's he travelling all that way for that, he could of gone to Doddington market, get the same effect couldn't ya? +Same thing +both selling rubbish +Eh? +Get out you're not getting on that boat, look at it +Oh god Oh no wonder you say there's us like eating cockles I suppose as the French eating snails int it? +Mm +Same sort of thing +Hello there man, of course I'm awake, I'm eating my tea, ha you're wrong, Russell's organizing his night so that he's gonna pick you up half eight quarter to nine okay well I, I ain't had a shower or anything yet, I mean er everything's organized I organized it all for picking you up eight quarter to nine, bless you, what's your number? +Oh what I'll do when I'm ready I'll give you a bell which means it'll be what ten, fifteen minutes from then to picking you up Oh that's it Alright, see you bell in a bit, ciao +I thought that was floating then, but it's an island, the way their camera was moving it looked like the old grass was moving, oh that's a nice boat +yeah +They have to pay as well? +Oh they +talking to one of these receptionists today and she says erm she's been trying to get a bit of erm, she's split up with her husband, trying to get, a bit of extra money together, you know, to be, she's got her own house like, buying her own house and all this and that she's fell into a bloody modelling job and saying get yourself a passport and er on about sending her off to either the South of France or Kenya +Yeah +Yeah so she's er instead of just earning herself a bit of money she ain't done bad has she? +Mind she's dead smart dead smart +Well there's a thing going round a few years ago weren't there with these models, just pay for them to go out there +Yeah +and just keep them on meagre wages and then they'd have to subsidize themselves or +Oh, no oh no it's not like that, it's a proper model agency in er, in Nottingham, it, it sounds above board, well I've heard of the, the lass that's running it actually, she's an ex page three girl, she's er very good, you know, from what I've heard it's erm, it's a reputable agency and er, yeah the ones of the sharks doing that, but er, she ain't one of them thing is she doe she +Everybody wants to +yeah, yeah, including English women er, what's he doing with that bird, he still, what's he doing?oh I don't believe it, he's got an AIDS problem and he's shaving a, oh god +yeah, that's true it does show ya that it can grow though don't it, not the hair I mean AI AIDS you know if you shave somebody head and got AIDS and you shave his head, he cuts them both, that's it, two people's got AIDS just like that. +That was an antelope with his arse weren't it? +Which one? +That was were they just got all aboard +Yeah +You can't get many of them out of sea surely +I thought they're trading people that's coming up as well +Oh that one isn't dead yet is he? +That one is good god the size of that one that must be still alive oh look at that look +yeah er I could tell that was still alive that pig +Mm +I can't stand to see people being cruel to animals it absolutely appals me, it does really, I feel like to take an axe to them +Mm +I feel like I'd, I could take an axe to them oh look at that look oh dear, probably seen his mother butchered ah see that big fat body just then a pair of feet I thought it was his, did you see that? +Mm +I thought cor blimey it's a wonder he can walk look at that you wouldn't believe that today would you nineteen ninety two oh no wonder they all come over here, is so really, can't blame them if that's the sort of quality of life they've got +Sorry we should never of let them in first +Well there'd ought to of been more control but apparently now, you know how the Indians come over here, all the time don't they? +Yeah +You try and get to India, not that you'd want to go mind you, you try and live in India, won't let you in +Mm +No, you cannot get to India from what I've heard, you cannot get in +Well I see this thing in the paper +Well the only reason you want to get out of here is to get out of the way of Indians +Yeah full of white man over there +Yeah that's it cos they're all over here +See if you can find a tickatape reading machine for a +a tickatape reading, what er, er a telex type thing? +Yeah +Yeah +I've got +have ya? +Really love it, it is racist +I'm not racist +You, I tell you you'll love it +Me? +Yeah +I can't stand bigots, racist bigots, especially black'uns no +I tell ya if you can, if you know anywhere that's got one +Mm +it'll look +yeah, er that's not many of them these days is there? +Aren't there? +I tell you what the biggest racist are the black, black, not so much the blacks, are the Asians +Yeah +They're terrible, they really are, not all of them +Oh I know but them who are, are really bad +Yeah oh when I went to that +You know a lot of people erm, you're not, they +to acc accept them to what they are +I'm the same, I'm, I won't prejudge +But when they start coming +Yeah that's right +and start calling you behind your back cos you'll find out +Yeah mm a bit like I say when I went to that dentist surgery at er Leicester +Mm +last year I couldn't believe my welcome, they're coming out and apologizing are you alright to wait, you know, he's, he's got dentist in the surgery and oh it was amazing +I know, I was I went up for some chips at the top +Yeah +and er +and I says to him that's one thing you never get at that, that one at Top Shop +What's that? +well she says like, I won't be a minute +I could see what she was doing, I won't be a minute, I think she knows what I go in for +Yeah +it ain't very often I go in for something other than chips and not have chips as well you know +Chips and chips? +Well you know like fish and nothing else +Yeah , yeah +says oh I'll not be a minute yeah so he starts, you don't get that sort of thing that one, the Big Shops +Yeah you, you're there and they just ignore you +Yeah +Mm +and she were telling me the guy that runs it won't let them talk to the customers, said that was pig ignorant surely +owns it? +I thought he owns them all +No don't own that one at Top Shop +Don't he? +No +Oh I thought he did, are you sure? +I reckon he does you know +But when you go go into this one yeah they're nice and friendly aren't they? +Yeah +You walk in and just like er, they're always talking to you +And he won't let them talk to the customers? +At that one at the Big Shops, the guy that ru okay it might be the guy that runs it not the one that owns it +Yeah I'm sure owns it +won't let them talk +Yeah +he won't let them talk, it's disgusting, I tell ya, you know, no end of times I've been in there and it's obvious we're waiting for chips +Yeah +to cook and they won't say +Anyone who don't want chips +Something like that +Yeah +on top of as well, we've just put them in they'll be about five minutes or whatever +Yeah +I mean what does it cost, no, no end of times I've just +Yeah +walked out with it's unreal +Do you know the bloke , do bloke, do you know the bloke who owns it then? +Have you seen him? +No, it's, when I was talking to these +Yeah +this other chappie +Yeah +you know the top one out the two +Yeah, you don't know if he's Greek then? +He's some foreigner thing, but they were saying they don't allow them to talk to the customers that's it, you don't talk false stop, no hows, whys or whatever, you don't talk +Tell him cobblers +Yeah I don't go though +I won't, I wo I won't erm +I won't go in the shop even with +where there's ignorance +I've even considered reporting it to the health people +Why is it bad? +It can be +Can it? +Oh he don't look very pleased with something does he? +Want to nail him to the fence you should think he's not +yeah, yeah he had them all panicking +Their captain's making it difficult for them on the blower +Yeah +Did you see that?he nearly shot himself in the butt that time didn't he? +He's in a rush to get somewhere ain't he? +Yeah he's had a big +is that what it is? +Oh it's a definite to the side, oh that's his canoe there +Oh I don't know why he just doesn't turn the boat so the current was too much for the +it is innit? +Yeah +yeah did you not know that? +I learnt something about it in the past yeah +You know when you're fishing +Yeah +boil ham +Yeah +throw it down as ground bait +Yeah +sends the fish high +Does it? +Yeah +oh I've heard of them, yeah, but I know this +Pre-boil it +Yeah +rinse the stuff out, and just throw it in and you're away +Oh +I wonder if you grind it up and smoke it in a pipe with tobacco, would it have the same effect? +I don't know +I bet it would eh? +I used to use them when I was fishing +Yeah didn't boil it though did you? +Mm, mm +can't remember, I di didn't go for long +yeah, we was talking about them today actually as a mat as a as a coincidence we er, we own that creepy crawlies and dragonflies +Oh it didn't look like it was making a hundred miles an hour anyway +No +What happens if that engine blows up? +Yeah, well it goes downstream then don't it? +Goes back to the fisherman and they just er done the dirty on +Yeah got one job all day today, oh yeah +Got a good day then? +Good day, yeah well I was in Beeston all morning preparing it, there's a programme on +well I used er technical supports, workshop, went in there grab my +and dashed out and fitted it, complete waste of bloody time mind you cos er we've got the own software back in now, well actually the latest releases of it, we were going back a release because er we were having trouble, but it turns out it's not our problem external problem so, put three dot seven back in. +I can see it, blimey where's that from? +Did it? +What for? +What +really? +Yeah +You could use that couldn't you? +You, you, you have two don't you for a sub base or just, you just have one do ya? +One yeah +Cos it's not, it's non-directional ain't it base? +What, what it is on that one you've got this speaker right and it goes down to really low frequencies especially +right, oh you've got to have a special sub base speaker then? +Well it ain't gotta, it ain't got to be a sub base one, it's a base speaker +Mm, bigger then +You know , you know that padding that you put on the car you know that stuff on the doors inside? +Mm, yeah +You put two squares of that and stick on to the cone +You're joking +and it slows you down, and it goes in out and like that +Blimey well you could have them on your A speakers and then have yours, just play your surrounds couldn't ya if you wanted to do it that way if you want really +Yeah but you'll lose, you'll lose +oh of course you are yeah, yeah oh +just like that and hi-fi speakers and hi squire, hi-fi speakers +Hi squire be hi squire speakers +Anyway +something beginning with S +Yeah, all sorts like that +Yeah +and there's one it's supposed to be erm a pretty good unit +Yeah +and it only had one over all the speaker +Oval? +Electrical? +Was it? +Yeah on a four amp speaker that's it +well we're not talking +again, sub base +No, no these are speakers on +Really, new ones? +Well not new ones out all +sort of catalogue in them +Mm computer, yeah +yeah I thought about, about that amp you know +Did you get it? +Oh, eh +Have you tried it out? +Oh yeah +Do you make a hundred and fifty watt speaker? +Ha, was it? +Sixteen hundred +Well the ones I'm running are twenty five watts +What's the, what's +forty, twenty five watts or less, forty watts nominal the ones I'm running not through a hundred watt channel, er +Now we went, we went to er to +No it's just after the +just before Christmas +Right, okay then Angela, about six o'clock then +Ain't you got the ones? +Yeah +Okay then +Yeah +see ya, ta-ta +he says he says +yeah +about a hundred and forty quid the pair +The pair? +The pair +Yeah +and they erm say a hundred and forty watt +Handling +yeah there's, yeah, yeah that's not bad then, you said they sounded alright didn't you? +Sounds +did they? +And when he sat in here like they've got like two glass doors +Yeah +yeah +He's got two of them that go in to his next room +Yeah +and then he got it up the back that far +You can hear it +and he got it turned up a bit and sounds bloody from the other room +Yeah +and then we get in the doors +well you know what I've done with mine erm, just temporarily, I'm trying to find out to speaker position, eh? +Put big resisters on it +Big resisters yeah, I just don't turn it up very far, it's, it's, it's lovely, it really is, it's well worth the money +Yeah +and er I've put er, you know how my room's, the fire's there and I, I had erm sort of either side of the fireplace didn't I, but one +Yes +was in the back room cos of the size of the fireplace and one in that corner but they're in the way, that was only temporary while the house is upside down and I've put two +yeah, yeah, put them upside down and the house will be the right way round, I've put one either side of the patio door and sort of based them slightly inwards on the floor to get the maximum bass response, I understand in that room it's brilliant, it's absolutely su boom, boom +Yeah but what happens when you come down the other end? +As soon as you walk through the archway, I mean you'd expect it to be an open +You'll lose it +You lose it +Yeah +Well you'd lose it +Could you get, you know when I said it, you know when I said about +It must hit the wall and bounce off +did I, did I ask you about that erm when Dave +lighting on the ceiling, he's got four speakers and I said look what, what's happening is the, the sound from that particular sound from that +mm +It does work that does cos I've, I've read about it in one of the books +Oh yeah, it's like wiring your speakers back to front as well +Mm +erm, getting the +wrong, your, your, your bass response just goes it cancels out cos one's pushing and pulling, the other's pulling and pushing, vicious +Yeah, I've got a design for a set of speakers upstairs and do, I think it's three way like that +Yeah +and it's, it's got the box the design of the box will interfere +yeah +I tell you what there's been about four or five different types of that +is there? +Yeah, you've got one where you get bass reflex +Yeah +right and then you've got an infinite backing where you got speakers there like that and then you got a board behind that and then one behind that and behind that +That's right yeah, yeah +you know, there's another one, another, another type of back is +This is all for bass is it? +No it's all for speaker's cabinets +Mm, mm +it's easily when +the computer program +is it +and all the generator the sills +mm +an amplifier, a multimeter +Yeah +you know, and you stick it on, you know, like it shows in the circuit, and then whatever reading you get that's +yeah +whatever that is, I dunno +yeah +work out and you can put all the information in to the computer +Yeah +bloody hell, yeah, my box in, I think my speaker boxes are glued together, you can't get at erm +Are they vacuum sealed though? +It wouldn't surprise me +Because it, it, it turns to the, you don't lose so much bass in the back +Yeah, if it's vacuum sealed yeah +Yeah cos in, well I don't suppose it could be vacuum sealed it would rip all your +wouldn't it? +Yeah I suppose it would wouldn't it, if it tries to come forward yeah, yeah +But you don't get any +as your bass come out your +yeah, yeah, you don't get the sort of, when your speaker's on loud you get a lot of sound coming out the back +Yeah, but it's very, it's well, can, I don't suppose it can be, I might of had one of the speakers out but I know there in the back of the speakers, you had this loft insulation it's full of that +Yeah it's like white stuff +No it's yellow, it's yellow +Wadding +Yeah like wadding yeah +yeah there's a lot of different designs you can't move the back of these +Can't ya? +you've got to take the speakers out the front +Mm +to get, you know, to get inside +I can't get in my back or front +Oh can't you get your speakers out? +I can't remember now, I know I've had a go to have a look at them to see how, to see exactly how, cos what I thought, what I thought I was gonna do was, I didn't like the furniture of the, of the speakers and when I was keeping that system I was gonna remount the speakers in the box a bit more you know decorative +but erm, you know, I remember as coming across one or two obstacles and I couldn't get in to it I thought if I'd tried a bit harder, I didn't want to start you know so +I've been thinking about convert these speakers this time +Mm +because you only sort of need to buy one set of speakers +Mm +move the cabinets and if they're no good just cut them up and throw them away +Yeah +you know, but, one of them it shows you inside the side view of the cabinet +Yeah +right, and you've got your speaker there, and you've got your +coming down like that, but in the corner you've got a piece of concrete +Concrete? +and ceramic tiles set on it +You're joking +Eh? +All in the, all in the book +Oh +ceramic tiles set in it like that +Yeah +Well that's the sound lock +Oh +yeah, but +perspex in the speakers so you can see through them +But the +of perspex is not the right material for the, for the box is it? +Not really because +mm, wouldn't sound right though, you wouldn't get the cor correct type of resonance out of it +mm, I don't know I think a lot of the sound travels through the wood, I think that's all part of it, you know, I don't think you'd have very good erm quality out of to be honest with you +You know them, you know them little tubes that you put in +mm, I've seen them on the front that's all yeah, mm +things like that, they've a plastic tube in them, I +is it? +Yeah +really +but it's the right size +This is it you see, I mean a, a company like or have gone to a lot of trouble to get that length right, er and to tune the box and all this that and the other and get the right, I don't know maybe er just think oh you know you just build this, put this massive speaker in and call it a sub based woofer +Mm +you know, you don't know what the qualities gonna be like, it's alright getting one for fifty quid +Yeah +if it's decent, but if you've got a decent system and you've got a crap +you're really wasting your time having one +Yeah I know +Yeah cos I've seen a sub based +they're over three hundred pounds and there must be a difference +is it? +Yeah +Well, rather pay a bit more and get one that's good +Yeah, I mean that Kenwood's got, he +he says it looks nice as well +yeah +You can't actually see the speakers +Mm +he's got Kenwood words written on it and a great big diamond on the, at the end +Mm, yeah,ma maybe with a W +Yeah with a W +That's right yeah that it's made out, yeah +does it? +Yeah +Yeah and that's, that's what two hundred quid? +That's two hundred quid +Yeah, but I tell you what about then I says to him I went to him and says erm about the stamp thirty one hundred, he says erm +Well I wouldn't do it, I'm not stupid enough +Oh he says I can get you one, I said I want to hear it first +Oh aye +he said oh it's not rigged up, there's no plug on it, there's no speakers attached to the back, I says well when can you get rigged up? +He says I'm coming New Year's Day, alright, he went down and he shut it, cos I went in the shop and I says er hang on I thought you was open New Year's Day? +I were, ah I says I came here at quarter past two, place was all shut up +what time did you go, I can deal with the manager and she was the manageress, he's the assistant, er, er, er, I says oh dear have I dropped you in it? +I paid you till four o'clock, I thought oh no er and he says do you want one? +I says I want to listen to it, you know, I said I've heard it with C D going through it with about four sets of speakers, but I want to listen to it through eight sets of speakers with cassette, a cassette that I like to make sure, to my type, he says I guarantee you now you will like it, he says you will like he says, he says we do a ten day er return thing, he says you buy something, he says you bring it back within ten days undamaged we'll give you money back if you don't like the quality of the sound, for whatever reason we'll give you your money back. +yeah, yeah +when, when I went in to work the other day, Pete says I don't know about that, that Kenwood stuff +Oh too hot +says er they do C D player +Yeah +and amp and a set of speakers it's about three hundred and odd quid and it's er Samsung and it's supposed to be one +Mm +of the best you can, the best sound you can get +Really? +three hundred pound +Mm +I thought well +no +be a bargain for somebody +Yeah +this one, look at the back, I think the reason it's so big is to go in on the sockets at the back, put, you can put two tapes on it +Yeah +C D, two video recorders through it, why you would want to put er the video recorders through an amp I don't know, but you can +have that +Moving out +Oh I wouldn't let them drive me out +Eh? +I wouldn't let them drive me out would you? +I don't +you can, you can probably get better ones than, than white labels +Yeah +Yeah +they keep themselves to themselves +That's right, they're always personable you know, they'll always speak to you +Aye +Aye +Even they're not always a problem though +lived on his own +Well I mean look at mine I've got white neighbours and you don't get noisier than them +pleasant enough, you know, but it's just everything you've done, you know +Sat here and +oh god I've had enough of this, so I went round, knocked on the front door,win curtain went back like that, she went +What? +so I went round the back +Oh dear +knocked on the door Jim said er +Jim fancy her does he? +he was, he was sportsman happy, he was out on +well that'd be +going round the block wouldn't it? +used to go, used to go for runs didn't he? +Well , well you do anyway when you see them on telly and they're all hanging round the, you know, the, the A N C meetings they all go up and down like this +I think they do that in their sleep, I don't think there's a +get used to it +yeah +Yeah poor thing knocked on the door +I said eh can you turn this music down, my kid's asleep, oh right, oh and he went and turned it down +Yeah +went in then +Well that's it +and then we waited till next morning when they were all fast asleep you know and +mm +didn't go to bed about five in the morning +yeah +then you start drilling and sawing +hammering and banging one night +especially, especially trying to do a bit of +up against the wall +Yeah +Yeah +we had, we had hammer drilled the blunt bit +Well they were knocking one night well gone twelve, about twenty to one I think it was, still banging and hammering, and I'm sure if I rang him and said look you know pack it up this, he'd, he'd say oh I'm sorry yeah and he will, but you shouldn't have to do that +No they should have +that's right +I've always ain't I when I've done summat, if I've been sawing or banging, making a noise I've always stopped at ten +Yeah that's, I think that's a reasonable time +He didn't only did that cos you lost your temper +did you hear us last night? +I said did you hear us, she said +mm +but when I did this, I did this +Cor blimey that goes in one ear +when I did this there were no there were nobody next door +Yeah +were there that side +Yeah +then I bothered? +No +I mean sometimes you could sit here and +their music on +Mm +Or you'd be +The thing, the thing I like about it is with, with blackies and things like that when they turn it up all they do is boom, boom +Yeah +when you've got white people next door at least you can hear the music +You can hear the er +I don't mind that I +Yeah +like, I'd turn the telly off and listen to their music sometimes +Mm +I don't mind the Beatles +Don't like the Beatles, though I like the blackies between, between two slices of bread +How's your telly? is it alright? +Oh brilliant, yeah brilliant no problem +Have you tried them both together? +Yeah both work yeah +Great +Wicked, watch Ian, Ian Botham first time in my life +Er you watched that er Jack Nicholson thing? +Yeah +What The Shining? +No +Oh really +got this program upstairs, I didn't tell you about it did I? +Mick come down on Saturday, you know Mick +Mick? +Big Mick +Big Mick +Mick and Ricky? +No just Mick +Not Mick and Ricky? +No it's just Mick now +Right +Ricky has left, she went off with a bloke ten years younger than her +Really? +Yeah +You're joking +Not +she was more like a bloke +I like +I can get on with him +you could get on with Ricky she's a good listener +oh really, yeah +Anyway he come down and he got this box with disks in +I thought he was gonna say he's got a belly +computer, computer disks +Computer disks yeah +and he just come in and he just sort of put them down like that, put the books next to them like that and never said nothing, so I never said nothing to them about them anyway +computers and that and er he left it and he just carried on talking about this that and the other, and he says right I'm going and he went and he left the game, he'd brought it down for the kids, he didn't say, you know +had their computer nicked +yeah, yeah +it's Nick and Eddy's +He's goodhearted that way +he gave it them and never said owt, you know what I mean he just says oh there's a Ninja in there and Batman and this that and the other and left them +Yeah +there's, there's a program in there it's called Auto Ring you put +Oh yeah yeah +put, put put them in +seen that we use that +put this program in and you swap it for this er map disk, then it comes up, you tell it where you are, where you going to and it works your route out +Yeah it gives you about three or four erm individual routes, don't it? +It gives you the fastest route +Shortest by road +Shortest route +Yeah +and an intermediate route +Yeah +or in some cases you get two intermediate routes +Mm +and it tells you how far away it is, how long it should take you to get there +to get there, yeah, you can put the time of day in as well can't ya? +You can tell it what time you wanna set out +Yeah +you can also tell it what you +I think it also works out the, the traffic load +Yeah +you can also, you can also +Amazing +work out if you want to avoid a place, you can put, say, say you're going from +Mm or you can go by +say from here here to Corby or something like that +Mm +where you go, you go through Leicester more or less wouldn't you? +Yeah +And you can just put down Nottingham to Corby avoiding Leicester +Yeah +and it says break and you can put out all your stops going in +Mm +you know you stop for twenty minutes, put twenty minutes, and you, you just press return and it throws a map up, a map of part of England +Mm +where you are +That's it +goes +like that and puts all the numbers in +Mm +and then you can zoom in on it closer +Yeah that's it you can move the arrow around can't ya, the arrow moves +Yes +and you can move the arrow and the cursor, that's it an arrow and a mouse you just hit it and it expands that bit +Yeah you can zoom into it, you can zoom out from it, then you can put more detail in it, put more little places in around it and you can +That's it, yeah +where, where you are and that +I think Gordon's got one, we use one at work though, yeah it's, yeah yes it's very good +and then you just print it out and what you do +instead of, instead of in the map with a, with a drawing like that +Mm +you, you get to the text one as well? +Yeah +Where it tells you you're at +Yeah that's it +Nottingham and +That's it +you have to walk so and so for three miles +Yeah that's it +Yeah +Often my +that's it, yeah, yeah, you can give it to the driver then can't you? +Yeah +Mm +I was just wondering how on earth your supposed to get to the M one heading towards er Bramford I mean +no Cockbrave, everywhere you go from here is towards Cockbrave +Is it? +Yeah +I like, I like that, I like the idea of it telling you how far it is +Yeah +Lovely +Yeah +you know it's +if you put twenty minute break in then does it tell you which is the best cafe to stop at and how much egg and chips cost you? +and what you can do is if you've got a +yeah +you can go and say er Nottingham, Grantham, Grantham to Lincoln, Lincoln to Newark and it'll tell you the, the route between each town +Yeah +like that you see, if you get to Lincoln you've done that one +Yeah +go down here, down here, down here +you see it +Mm, very good, yeah, I was spellbound when I first saw that, saw that about, I think the first time about three years ago +how, how long did it take Mick to sort it out? +Sorry? +How long did it take Mick to sort a route out? +Erm, it all depends, it looks erm +On that one it sort of leaves a disk, it's got like a bar underneath +Mm +and as it's checking the list for the roads in the town +That is I think that is +it, it cuts down like that, then it goes off then it starts again, then it goes off and then goes +that's it yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm vaguely recalling it now because it was six months ago since I saw Mick's but er, yeah that sounds about right +Mm +I can remember something about that +eight hundred and forty eight miles +Really? +fourteen hours and something +Good lord +that's without a break +Yeah, well he's, when he first says to me he says right he says er, this was when I first got an inkling that he was gonna check the mileage you know like for the future, and it says erm, where do you wanna go to? +I says er when was it, he says where do you wanna go from? +I says Scotland, he says where? +To Nottingham, where do you wanna go by? +I says Dublin he says I can't it's gotta be in Geordie then he says erm he says well where do you wanna go through? +I says well Blackpool then, did all the routes you know, tell you all the routes that you can take for you know, and that took what fifteen seconds, twenty seconds or something to work that out, maybe there's not a lot to er alternatives +Usually has a C C +that's it er yeah but the thing is learners can't use motorways, er they want something to, wish to avoid motorways +I think there might be yeah +Yeah +I ain't had a proper look I just put it on and said, work a few routes out you know where it +Yeah +where you're going, I mean I did Nottingham to Peterborough, how long did it take Nottingham to Peterborough? +Hour fifteen under +An hour and eleven +Yeah +one hour and eleven minutes it said on there +that's from door to door +Yeah will do, yeah +It'll take me fifty minutes +Did it? +Yeah, but I mean I think this is sticking to us +I tell you another option, tell you another option you've got in it, you can put down your G T I as well you can go in a G T I +What's that? +I don't know the difference that makes but it's got an option, something like erm +Well it's for time int it, obviously +normal normal car +Yeah +you know van, lorries and stuff like that +but, but the thing is if, if the traffic's gonna be heavy, if it thinks we're gonna get stuck in traffic, if you've got a G T I you're that type of driver you've got that type of power, you can sort of pass and save a bit of time +Yeah +so maybe it's, yeah, it's a good idea though yeah +Yeah have you seen those things like, like these +it's like an L C D screen between +the one with the, with the, with the map spins on the side of the road? +The one +It's a screen about this big right and you put it on your dashboard and plug it in to your cigarette lighter and er it's like a control centre and if there's been a crash +Mm +on the roads and if there's road works or summat, the section on, it's got all the major roads +Mm +and this section on your L C D flashes and you can like and you can zoom in and it'll say blah, blah, blah, road works at such and such avoid, or something like that +Mm +I know they did +you had it, you had it on your dashboard like that, you know like a map +Yeah +and what happen was you had like a, a receiver in your car and all the information was transmitted from, transmitted from like on lamp post +Yeah +and if you was, it says like he, you +going to Oxford, if you went to Oxford and you come to such and such a way and you're going out towards Ipswich and the big roundabout there was +Mm +you know solid or there's been an accident it tells you there's an accident at, at this point +Mm +and this is your alternative route and gives you an alternative way to go round to get passed it +Yeah +I'd seen an accident the other day in town I'd seen two and did you notice +they knocked the bridge down +What bridge? +Er not the bridge the er the gates to the Embankment have you seen that? +Yeah I have +Yeah +seen the state +Did you? +What, what was the thing about that? +What happened? +I dunno I just, I was coming in at dinner time and there was a, a double decker bus with all its front smashed in, the wall fell over +Mm, apparently the guy that was driving it had overalls on, so he may have been a mechanic delivering it to somewhere or test driving it over there +yeah +Yeah +then I went, I went into town a bit later on, come down Manstral Road and there was like a load of traffic there and I got to where the traffic lights are just before you get to the big turning at Manstral Road +Mm +do you know where I mean? +Mm +And there was a single decker bus then, right, stopped in the middle of the road and there was an Escort and he'd gone under the back right up to his windscreen like that the back +Really? +the back of the bus was right at his windscreen like that +Aye, cos they're quite high aren't they at the back, them Fords ain't they? +Yeah, and it was right up to his windscreen +Good god +just look, the windscreen weren't broke +Yeah +but the back of the bus was level with it like that +Yeah, you know these short dump trucks, the little stubby things, I saw one of them once erm, at the junction of Avenue Street and erm, well outside Lynn's there +Mm +and there was this dump truck sort of about two foot out, he'd obviously changed his mind and sort of had er stopped, had a Reliant Regal, you know a Reliant Regal it was right up to the windscreen and there was a pile of glass in, you know everywhere it was +Tell you what +and that was that was done right underneath this lorry +on the, on the way to work one morning when I was, I was at +I went, I used to go into town, past that grey garden up, up Forest Road +Yeah +and then turn left and you're down towards Icing Green, do you know where I mean? +And you come out near that new +No, you went from +it's called Mount Eaton Road +Mount Eaton Road I know yeah +Yeah that's when you, when you come up that +yes +to the lights +Yes yeah oh I was +instead of turning round +coming the wrong way on the wrong road, yeah +if you go up +and going straight on up the hill +You come along Ladford Road +Boulevard, that's with the bed shop on the corner +Yeah +Straight up there +straight on, past Camby and Sand +Yeah +up to the lights +Yeah +and then you come up and turn left at the florists +Yeah, the +right +go straight up +go straight up the hill +Salvage Street +Salvage Street is it? +Yeah +are the one +I was coming down there, right +Yeah +and I just got through the traffic lights first thing in the morning and there was two light +I couldn't believe it both of them and they'd smashed into each other +Really? +and there were bits of fibreglass all over the street +Oh +and two halves of car like laying on the side. +Yeah +Incredible, I, I could never believe that, two +They +into each other, cos they do don't they? +Eh yeah Rick's er, Rick's car broke down you know and, and van broke down and somebody he, he, he lived in Clifton and worked at Radcliff on Trend and somebody says to him oh you can borrow our car it was a Reliant Regal, eh he said oh god, you know, I'll have to park it round the corner, and he got out, didn't go into work, you know go to work every day where erm +yeah, no problem, and he says when you're driving along he says people flashing me, he says you see a head a pair of headlights flashing you think, it's not, it's another Reliant Regal some other bloke with a cap on you know +you know, one enthusiast club +We had a bit of fun er not last Saturday the Saturday before didn't we? +We went bowling, he, come across he says +Oh I, yeah, yeah haven't a car +he says oh can we go in your car tonight he says mine's er, the alternator's gone +Yeah +and you have to push it to start it like, I says yes alright then, I knew the timing was out on mine so I thought I'd do that this afternoon +Mm +before we go, so I'm out there just set the timing +then all of a sudden it went, but you know like +kids give it a shove, pushed it on the street +so turned it round and come back, this bloke pulls up in this er well three, three litre +super job was it? +Yeah +Yeah +J reg weren't it, jumped out, wanna push? +Yeah alright then, got down about ten yards it started again +Yeah +got it home and what it is, is the timing on the car probably cos it's so old +Yeah +is a lot further up er what it says in the book, no way near them +Yeah you can't set it by the book +so I just, you know +Till it sounded right +Mm that's it +That's it, I do till it peaks without pinking +Yeah +that's it, it's done +Yeah +so it er, it were running alright then, and er I took it for a spin I went round the block, up Robin Hood Way +Which one's that? +Yeah, yeah +Yeah, up to Wickes +Mm, mm +straight up the erm by the custom bridge, right up to the next island round there, round the island and back down again +yeah +Yeah +I give it some you know +Yeah +back over the flyover, back down here, comes up stop, turns it straight back on again +oh no +Yeah +thought right, spanner took it out the starter motor +What's that? +Well it wasn't it was the solenoid +Yeah, is it for a gauge? +A ring +Is the solenoid on the starter? +Yeah, yeah, what it, what it was on them ones +when you turn your key it suddenly clicks and it clicks the thingy forward +Yeah +and then when it does that when the solenoid comes back +Mm +it comes back through the starter motor and so I thought oh right strip it all down see what's up, see if it's bent inside +Yeah +strips it all down, gets the book out, do this, no, that don't work, put the book away +Aha +ripped it to pieces +Yeah just use your commonsense +took it all to pieces, cleaned it up all inside it's great, I thought right I'll take it outside and I'll try it now +Mm +just outside +held your foot on it so it didn't fly all over the place, yeah +yeah +where's all this gone +Yeah +I thought I'll get one down the scrap yard +Well the +yeah so you can get the solenoid off +Eh? +don't you? +No, the one, the one I worked on it was inter +you had to get a, take, replace the lot +The cella solenoid on the top like that +Yeah +and all, all it's got is now +Keith? +No ta +yeah +this +Don't put it on the floor +this solenoid is under +It look like ribbon and there's more to come +Yeah +What do you mean I made it like a brick? +A bit slow on that one weren't ya? +there's this solenoid on the top +Yeah +and it's got like a, a metal thing that comes from it and it's on a pivot +Mm +like, so you've got a solenoid that holding the top on the pivot and the bit at the bottom just like a +like that +Yeah like selector like a J selector? +Yeah +Yeah +and when it clicks back it just goes like that, it pushes and pulls +Yeah +and all you do is you take that pin out and pull it out +Oh, eh +oh, eh, does it? +yeah go on +So I went round the scrap yard +to er, what's it called? +yeah +Ken's +Ah +No, not +anyway went in, have you got one? +Well there's one there, there's one there and there's one round the back, so I looked in that one +it's a different engine +Yeah +cos in, when you +and it shows you the, the engine +I went round the back and they'd got +yours a two litre? +I thought it was a sixteen hundred, yeah +yeah +looked in it they're the same, I thought +tried to pull it out, it won't come out, there's a bracket on it, on the back +Was it? +Yeah, and it was getting a bit dark and I couldn't see +Oh +and I couldn't see underneath like er +is it done? +I said no not yet, he says we're going in a minute, quarter to +dip stick +Yeah +pulled it out the way, fiddle me car +yeah +and then I go some, put it in +It's alright +cleaned it all first +Yeah my nephew's selling an X R Two you know, grant it in the paper's three thousand +whatever it is, deflate, and er guy come round, no problems, no problems with it, well I mean the head gasket's gone and there's a hole near the wing and bald tyre on it but mechanically it's, this guy comes round to look at it, I mean he's been driving it from Plymouth, he's in the navy, up and down here, bloke comes round, yeah no problem, come on round mate, come and have a look at it, look round it, says yeah I like this can I just take it for a drive? +Yeah, goes click, click, click, the starter motor, wouldn't believe it would ya? +Eh? +Would of finished up +and now the van's got the red light heat coming on, on the battery, took it into the garage and checked it, it's charging the battery alright, its alternator's okay, but we don't know what it is but when you turn it on, when you turn the key on in the morning +Yeah +you know where the indicator's on it's a dead flash int it? +Yeah +It sounds like that, but in the dashboard +on the back of the er alternator +Is it? +Yeah +Your instrument voltage regulator +That's what I think it is +Yeah +it's not cutting out for the for the thingy +That's right is your +no +Oh +What, what else is happening, you know you know your brake warning lights? +Yeah +When your brakes are going +Yeah +erm that then don't come on either, but when it clicks like that they flash together and they both light up, and then when you start it up they go up and then they come back on again +You got an +problem? +I don't think so he, he says it's charging alright so +sounds like you've got a +to me +This is it, if it's a +yeah +If the, if the battery was, like if you want it +the battery, when you turn it on that +that's true, yeah +Yeah, so you can leave it and +but this, this er starter motor is the one I bought from the +is better than the one that's in it +Yeah +it's got four good +instead of two +Has it? +Yeah +yeah, well is it? +you've got more chance of it firing +Yeah, cos if one set go you still got +right I went to G T Cars +Yeah, will they do it? +to ask about the +yeah +To buy one +I bet they'll sell you one wouldn't they? +Yeah they would, yeah +Did they? +Yeah and +starter motor before +Yeah +I says er how much are they? +how much? +Well I'd say to price it, I know they're not quite so expensive on carpet but I'd say I'd say about seventeen pounds, but I bet it was about twenty seven or thirty one +It was about fifty seven +You're joking, just for a solenoid? +I said alright, how much is it for the starter motor with the solenoid built onto it like? +Oh probably about sixty two +Eighty quid +Yeah, that's it +Twenty quid for a starting motor +Yeah +I'll have one of them +well he says we've had so many of them +I thought I'm not surprised +I've got er, I've got a database +Yeah +on a database because it'll soon be +what I've done is I've put like erm the year, the year and the make of the month, right +the month anyway, so I've put something like one, ten, eighty seven right as the month and after that I've put down what magazine it is +Yeah +every +yeah +and then I've put project what it's called and then I've put what kind of project it is what type +Oh right +and then I've put like audio +Yeah +and photographic +Yeah +so that in the end when I sell it again I can put the type in alphabetical ascending order +Mm +so it'll be like erm amplifier, bass amplifier +Yeah +you know +Oh yeah +things like that +Yeah +It, it's all that and then you can just look through the amplifier +and it takes about eighty records at a time because it's using forty five letters with the +right +cos some of them are dead wrong +Yeah +erm so many for the dates and for so many for the +and so on like that and er, I thought okay +I don't like the bow on it +load it, sort it out and print it, right? +Mm +It starts off happily printing away, gets to page full +Yeah +starts to wind fan fold paper and wind it and wind it and wind it +Bet they're all printed +it's coming right through +I thought what the bloody hell's all this +Yeah +switched it off, fanned it all back, right and I thought start again, I must be doing something wrong, so I +the switches in the back +Yeah +so er I thought I'd try it on one piece one piece of paper +Yeah +one with perforation on +Yeah +try it on that, put the paper in +did pass the paper and er the paper light comes on +Right, yeah, and he's carried on printing while the +paper like +Really? +Yeah, gets +page, winds that piece of paper out, withdraw the package like that +Yeah +and then it winds another piece of paper in and starts printing again +yeah, aha +You're supposed to be using that, so it's printing the sheet and throwing it out and +printing on that one and then throwing that out and making another one +Yeah +that's why the, that's why they're running backwards and then forwards again +Mm +to make sure it ain't falling in, you know +What printer is it? +Epsom +They're good +very good, yeah, I say you could borrow my printer again, but that's, that packed up you know +Did it? +that printer of mine, yeah about +about, no, no it's only about a fortnight ago, I was on site doing a job and I come out and as far as you know what you call courtesy dial in a card, so that you don't cut anybody off, you can dial it and everybody says oh what's going off, you know, you can courtesy dial it, when we've finished it shuts that channel down +Mm +yeah +oh can't get it, and that's what we do and it comes up three channels you can use and somebody else cleared out two channels are used and if them channel +everybody on that call, instead of sixteen channels on a card and there's five people using it, it comes up five channels in use and blocks out number eleven so that nobody else can use it +Ah right +you see? +as they as they share the line it switches them off +Blocks them off as well yeah, and it comes up one channel in use when they cleared out card down, it clears the card so you can take it out I don't, they come down three channels in use, two channels in use, one channel in use. + +I'll just let it run on. +Something I maybe should ask you about before you start +Yes. +were you you born? +I was born at Odness. +At the back of Odness the houses were called the Westness . +The Westness. +Mhm. +Yeah yeah. +Born in nineteen twenty. +Mhm. +And that's a farm was it that you were born in? +Well er my father worked at the farm Odness. +Mhm. +That was where he worked. +And did you move around when +No. +No no no no no no. +And he did the fishing too. +the fishing and worked on the farm and +Mhm. +at nights they the lobster fishing +And haddock. +White fish. +Was it always at night they went? +at night after they were finished with their work on the farm in the daytime. +Mm. +And we're going to hear this . +Yes just start any time +Will I will I just go ahead and Aye. +And is my voice is that will that be +Aha. +Yeah that's I'll just have a look on that check the label. +that's fine. +Looking back to nineteen thirty five brings back memories to us older generation of the splendid summers when the herring fishing was booming in Stronsay. +No lovelier sight was ever seen than the herring drifters coming in with their catch of herring on a calm sea in the mornings. +The the horse-drawn lorries going to the different curing stations where the gutter girls stood at the far end dressed in their oilskin aprons ready to start the day's work. +No grumblers there believe me and to walk past them would be to hear them singing while you work. +Their gutting knives flashing in time to the music. +When I was about ten years old, a trip to the village from the South end was a bigger thrill than a trip to a big city would be to a present day child, later working in the village as a teenager, the dances every Saturday and Monday night was enjoyment never to be forgot. +Two of the Fiddler family from Rose cottage provided music with piano and violin. +No amplifiers in those days, but the old cinema rang from end to end with everyone in festive mood. +There were three ice cream shops and a chip shop doing brisk trade all the time. +Most of us oldies remember Mr , going his rounds with his ice cream barrel, proclaiming his wares to be the best in the world and no Summer was complete without him. +On Sunday night, a visit to Sister 's rest hut to join in the hymn singing was the highlight of the week. +With a small harmonium providing the lead it really was magnificent harmony. +Sister will always be remembered for her words, You must be cruel to be kind. +This was when she had held a poisoned finger in a bowl of very hot water but she always got good results. +At the close of the fishing season, the fishing folks always sang as the boat left the Stronsay pier and to hear the song, We're no away to bide a while, always brings back memories. +Stronsay fish mart in the fishing time was really a busy place with the salesmen busy selling the herring to the curing stations. +This is only looking back close on fifty years. +To look to look back further to the sailing boats, no doubt would be to recall an even busier village. +Mhm. +It would have been, +Yes. +The cinema was at the back of the present hotel. +it was built first to show pictures, then turned into a dance hall. +Musicians in nineteen thirty five was Mrs , North Cliff, the piano, and her brother Karl on violin. +M C was late Danny ,. +The small water boats ran between Papay and Stronsay ferrying people across. +I have seen them leaving Stronsay after a dance and you would still have heard them singing when they reached Papay. +Duneva was a Church of Scotland rest hut and there was a English church beside Glenfield. +That church blew down in the nineteen thirty two hurricane. +That right? +Mhm. +That's right. +There was also a gut factory where the herring guts was made into fish meal. +That was in the field as you turn at the Ayre of the Myres. +The cement founds are still in Hunton Field. +usually through the Summer, we got a visit from the Kirkwall City Pipe Band and they marched up and down the village playing, usually followed by a crowd of Bairns. +Twice I can remember the Kirkwall Brass Brand pray playing in the cinema and twice I remember a circus visiting. +But that was further back in nineteen twenty seven and twenty eight. +I did. +Mhm. +No wild animals, just ponies, monkeys and dogs, but it was great thrill seeing a girl in green tights and a frilly skirt, standing on a pony's back while it galloped round the ring. +I tried that later myself but fell off. +Yeah green tights. +That was something that stuck in my mind mm . +That stuck in your mind +I can remember at least six of the Stronsay women gutting the herring at that time and they stood on Moars beach. +There were three in a crew, two to gut and one to pack the herring in the barrels. +The drifters came in to both piers and on a Saturday night, the village was a busy place. +The coal boats lay out where the old barge is now and the drifters went alongside them to get coal. +The coal boats were manned by locals and the late J ,, used to work there every Summer. +Needless to say there was plenty tricks played on each other and once when the summer was finished, Jimmy couldn't get his trunk to move. +Some joker had it nailed to the floor. +Usually Hunton and Whitehall supplied the four wheel lorries but lots of farmers from up the highlands supplied carts. +Mhm. +Big stock boats came from Russia and Germany for the salted Herring and it was a busy time when they were loading. +It was dangerous on the roads for bairns as usually the horses with running with the carts. +Stronsay hotel was a lovely house with nine bedrooms, a big public bar and a smaller lounge bar. +There was a large hole hall at the back with a bar. +All this was required on a Saturday night. +I have seen the dyke before the village entirely filled up with men sitting there discussing the week's fishing. +on a Saturdays afternoon, they all set out and walked up past Sandybank and along to the Mill Road and the back to the village along the sand. +They were all dressed in Black knitted jerseys and dark trousers. +Mhm. +The jerseys were usually done in intricate patterns. +The hotel was burnt to the ground in August nineteen thirty nine. +And what the other bit of information you got any odd snippets of information you've got written down there. +When +Mhm just just +When you were speaking of the the hulks Nana, there were five hulks there. +Mhm. +There was David , erm from Stramness, Jimmy from Stramness, Duncan , a cement barge and there a fifth one but I'm not right sure of that. +For me my husband John Miller, was on that hulk the whole time. +And they had three cargoes of coal in the Summertime, every week. +They had three cargoes of coal. +Between two and three hundred tonnes every time. +Mm. +And they start on a Monday and they had it finished by Tuesday and then they start on Wednesday and Thursday and and then they went on Friday and Saturday. +And that was the finish. +It was most of them was local men but a lot of the Westray men and used to come too and help out. +And the Stramness men on 's boat. +Was there a lot of people who came to to work here in the fishing town. +Yes they came for the other islands. +the West coast and that but there were folk +Oh yes they came from Holm and the Kirkwall and +And then the came from Westray +And they came from Westray and Sanday and Edie and all that places to help out. +work on the coal boats and just different things like that. +They were on on the boats too. +And there's the the the last cooper cooper see they'd got coopers. +There were six there was eighteen crews on Moars with three in each crew. +And the the last copper died two weeks ago. +Eric . +And he was the last cooper. +That Stronsay that was left on that worked on Moars. +Eric . +And he gave me that information that there were eighteen crews. +Just in the one curing station? +On that this curing station here . +Mhm. +So that gives you an idea there was seventeen stations in Stronsay five in Papay. well you see +and that was . +And then there was all the coopers. +How many is that. +curing stations. +is that the names of the different curing stations. +That's the names of them +Well Camels was the lower no the bot the one of the bottom of the station was Bert and he married a Stronsay woman. +A +Was he a Stronsay man? +No. +He was from er East coast and he married er Isa from . +. He married her and they had the one down at the lifeboat slip. +And then there was Camels one there. +You see that house down there? +Yes +Well that was that was my house. +oh. +That white house. +That's the only fishing hut that's standing in it's original position. +And that was Camel's fishing hut. +Camel's house. +And it's Glen it was we renamed it to Glenmanor. +And it's the only house now well I left it I left it five year ago but it still belongs to my son. +. And there was that was Camel's and then there was 's right behind it. +'s was right behind Camel's. +And then at this side there was erm 's and then there was Bruce's. +That's it. +'s up here. +And then 's in this corner here was 's. +'s. +And then +And that was 's +Aye, 's and 's is where the new house . +And then they went up to the village and it the first one would been 's, 's and and 's. +and 's and 's, Dan 's and 's . +Up there. +'s was down here and 's was down here. +And then +They were below here you see. +And then Papa . +And then Papa . +Er 's was the first one and then it was er 's, and 's, and then 's and then 's and then 's. +That was the five in Papa . +And there was in Papa too. +Yes I know. +Yes. +Well +No no it was a Westray man that was in it. +It was that was in it when first then Jimmy Jim of Whitehall had it. +Well it was that shop . +Yes. +That shop was taken to Kirkwall and it's now Boondatoon in Old Scapa Road. +Mhm. +When the first well Aye one night we were speaking about this. +How many would there have been, there were between five or six thousand people in Stronsay in the height of the fishing year. +Yes that would be right. +You see there was eighteen three times eighteen is fifty four. +Fifty sixty three times eighteen. +Fifteen four women on 's. +Maybe there were not that quantity in every one but there would have been twelve or fourteen crews on every station. +Then there was all the coopers. +There'd have been ten, maybe ten coopers. +Then +And the coppers were they Stronsay folk that worked up at +Some of them and they made them Leslie and Eric and James, Jimmy and Andrew and Jim and Georgie and Jim and them, they worked in the Wintertime you see and made the barrels. +And Johnny . +Made the barrels in the Wintertime, to have them ready for the Summer. +Yes. +Tell me about the coopers. +told me names of the curing stations can you mind any of the cooperages that were in the village? +Well the cooper the cooperage they would have been one at ,co 's cooperage and then there were one at 's. +And that's where the men worked and they just made the barrels in there. +So there was just the two +Mhm. +That I can +Mhm. +remember here well that was certainly true for the Wintertime. +Yes. +But they must have taken an awful lot of barrels away. +Oh yes, the stock boats came just like great stacks see them coming along round . +Great huge height of all the barrels built up on them. +Stock boats came on the first day, they start coming away in May. +Yes. +And June. +And then the Stevedores, there were a lot of Stevedores here belonging to Stronsay. +There was Sammy and Davie and and er from Comely Bank, Willie and Jim they were all Stevedores and Andrew and They were stevedores you see a lot of . +They worked at that just unloading on the boats. +And then when the herring went away they had to load them again. +Yeah. +And er you were speaking about the gut factory. +In the Wintertime they had a boat they called the Redloch and she went to Stramness and took sillocks from Stramness and took to the gut factory here in the Wintertime. +And my my husband John and Peter and J their father John . +Well he was old John . +And Peter and Sandy and they went back and forth all the Winter with that boat. +And took took the sillocks and +to the factory to keep the factory going for the factory you see was up in Hunton's field and there were a lot of Stronsay men in it. +Working in it. +And that was something that went on all year +It went on the whole year Yes with the sillocks and things. +You could fairly smell it for far enough. +Yes. +And then the the hotel +Nana was mentioning the hotel it's burnt down. +Well there was in the summertime well there was a cook and a wait a waitress and a maid. +And then there was a a young girl that would wash dishes and do bits of jobs. +Yes. +That's Nana did you see. +She was just twelve when +Yes twelve and thirteen. +Twelve and thirteen and I was cook for four years there. +And then we had shooters that came, and we'd millionaires among them. +Really? +Yes. +And did they shoot +Came in came to shoot the ducks on the island. +They had their valets with them and they were here they would been maybe I saw them at the time. +And my father used to take them out in the boat. +Mhm. +And around you know, and they would shoot out of the boat and Jock used to take them out +Yes. +and Johnny in their boat. +And er Then there was travellers coming every week. +For the they were to begin with in Stronsay. +Yes. +And there were travellers coming you see every week for that for that . +And then that big h hall at the back of the hotel was a showroom for the travellers to show off their all their stuff. +What happened in the Wintertime to the shops then when there wasn't so many folk here? +Did they +Well they just struggle on in the Wintertime +Struggled on. +there they are, the shops, that was the shops . +Oh there was 's shop and they were a baker and grocer. +Whereabouts was that? +Well that's Hillside now. +have have that house now. +it's it's a private house now. +And there was W P that was right alongside them. +he was a grocer shop. +And then there was at Bayview and he was a butcher and grocer. +And +was a grocer. +And Maggie , Shamrock was a grocer and haberdashery. +And J at Minerva was a butcher was grocer. +And T D , shop at the head of the pier there, was he was a butcher, a grocer and a baker. +And J was a baker. +And Lizzie was a grocer. +And in the summer of course as I said before there was three ice cream shops and a chip shop and then up the island there was ,, and that was all +up the island. +Mhm. +So there was a lot of +First one I mind was the first was the 's Bakery. +Peter . +Yes well that was +Aye. +. +baker's there when in nineteen thirty five. +Aye changed us all like. +Mm January there was what they call the Jo what we always call the Joanna Thor Thorden gale. +That was January nineteen thirty seven. +The wind blew from the South East for about two weeks and the Joanna Thorden, a Norwegian boat, was lost off Stronsay. +That was the worst sea I ever saw. +As the high water mark was half up to to what we call the outer bogs at Houseby. +And the driftwood was lying away up the field. +Also barrels of apples and tobacco and many other useful items that had been part of the boat's cargo were strewn all along the beach. +The dyke at Gripness was laid flat by the sea but the smaller boats had been pulled up afore that . +Aye. +Hadn't they before the . +That was just I c Were the men lost off it? +Well there were a boat lost yes and there were women in it mind and that and bairns. +Yes. +Awful +Mhm. +Mhm. +Did the Stro was the Stronsay lifeboat on the go +No no no, the Stronsay lifeboat came in er nineteen fifty two was it not, the lifeboat then? +I should ken for me man was one of the crew and I was in the +Was he? +Yes and I was on the committee of the lifeboat. +I was secretary for seven year eh. +Aye he was one of the first of the crew. +Mhm. +I think it was nineteen fifty two it came. +His father was on the first lifeboat. +First lifeboat was here you see in nineteen nine. +Yes it was the John Raeburn. +And she was taken away then in when the war the first world war began +And then +And then it didn't start up till then till the second one came the Joseph Jo er The second one was John it was christened. +just go to the kitchen +While erm Nana's away tell me what you remember about old weddings. +You were telling me that you remember them . +Well I remember this wedding it was my auntie and she was she was married at Stronsay to a territorial. +He was a Sanday man, Jim . +And I can just er m remember it you ken it just sticks out in me mind. +First of all when you come in the everybody got a drink of whisky. +the mem men got whisky, that was the done thing. +And where was this at? +At Odness. +At Odness . +I was we were born at Odness you see. +I was born at Odness in nineteen twelve. +And it was there were two there was what they called the barn, the lofts they called it. +There were two lofts and the wedding was in the one and then the home brew and the stuff was kept in the other and the food. +And I just can mind standing getting married. +And of course they danced on till morning. +And they had home brew going the whole time. +and hens cooked and cooked and potatoes and well +can you mind what she wore. +I can tell you what happened. +She was going to have her husband was in khaki as a territorial and her and her bridesmaid was going to have khaki frocks to be some of them great velvet frocks. +And in that time you see, the steamer didn't come so often. +And a drifter would have come out with any soldiers that was coming home on leave and that. +Well this frocks never arrived and she just had to put on an ordinary er white blouse you see and a skirt and the frocks arrived the next day and she put them back. +She never kept them. +She and she was just furious. +Was she? +Yes. +Mm. +But I can remember the er a big tub in the floor and everybody sitting and er paring peeling potatoes you know for this. +potatoes and then they were boiled in a big boiler. +Mhm. +Huge old fashioned boiler with a coal fire underneath. +And the hens was cooked and all just a royal feed. +Then they danced on till morning, I can mind that . +That was my auntie and that was the l the woman who gave me that tea set I were telling you about. +Aye. +And what year was this she got married? +Oh +I don't mind Maggie +In the wart it was in the wartime you see. +Well I would nineteen maybe nineteen eighteen be near the finish of the war. +yes it'd been about well on for the end of the war she got married. +You were born in nineteen twenty. +Aye it would been about maybe nineteen seventeen or nineteen eighteen. +Mhm. +And what when when you say she got married,service take place ? +In the b in that barn. +The minister married her in the barn. +Yes. +And was the barn decorated up or anything? +Oh yes, just oh well just the ordinary . +I cannae mind much about the Cleaned and scrubbed +It would have been clean but there would have been no decorating I don't think. +No. +up a stone stair. +it was just home brew you see was . +Did they get wedding presents in that time +Oh yes they gave wedding presents, a lot of it was money. +Five shillings you see, twenty five pence was a big wedding present in that days. +Yes. +And did they go anything like a wedding walk that you remember? +No. +Never in Stronsay. +No. +I never remember a wedding walk in Stronsay. +Never. +I never remember a wedding walk in Stronsay . +No. +No. +No. +No, they did it in Shetland and that but not in Stronsay if ever I can remember. +And I'm seventy three now so. +And you'd have heard it spoken about +Yes I'd have heard it spoken about yes. +There weren't many church weddings then you see. +You just got married in the barn. +Mhm. +Mhm. +But I always remember they got this snap of whisky, the men got a nip of whisky and the women got a glass of wine when they come in. +Mhm. +That was the done thing. +Mhm. +And tell me you were saying about harvest homes . +Well they were just just held in the barns too. +All held The big farmers had them in the barn. +There was a muckle supper +A muckle supper they called it. +And and the always had maybe sh er sheaves of oats you know but I don't they were decorated and things like that. +It was just similar and then they had the little hall then and the farmers women all did it, the big farmers but the women did it. +No. +Just in +And they just had plates of hen and pork and beef and +They always had a very very good meal at the here. +Very good. +potatoes and turnips and just all that yeah, just a big royal feed. +When did that change then muckle suppers, when do you remember it changing to being in the Hall while the farmers wife ? +When did that change? +Well when I was It would have changed when I was well maybe my teens it would have changed I think. +Around to that. +But it always was in the the barns to begin with. +When I mind first . +Muckle suppers. +who would have been invited to the muckle suppers then everybody wouldn't have been asked . +Oh just just well it would just been all the ones from around that district kind of way. +See there were different districts and and the +Yes the workers you see, and that. +So you wouldn't have gone to say er a muckle supper at the +No the village ones didn't come so much to the muckle suppers. +Just very few +the and that . +Within the village, them that was been working ion the fishing time, they would have been at what they then on the firms maybe +Mhm. +so something like that. +And they would have been at that muckle supper. +And then they would come from North Ronaldsay and that to the different to working the harvest again. +It was a yes it was a big farming community. +And everybody Oh I can remember there were forty between forty and fifty j what we called servant girls at the at the different in the island. +And then there was men too and they had the bothies you see . +Good nights in the bothies, dances and sing-songs . +When me mo me mother in law, she worked when well she was at Houseby and they were she was in the bothy there. +There was, that's where they stay. +And I mind her saying that they had nine men once from North Ronaldsay. +Mhm. +And she baked every thing that they ate. +Oatcakes and and and it was porridge or they got at dinner time. +And then at tea time they had what their dinner was at tea time you see and it was always fish and . +Mhm. +At tea time. +Or f or soup or whatever +Or hen or hen. +The main meal was at night. +Mhm. +And she said she baked everything for that men. +Would that've been a full time then or would she have done other +Oh that was a she had four or five +She wouldn't have been employed then look after the men in the bothy. +She was just the the aye, she just fed them . +She cooked and fed them. +And kept them. +Mhm. +And there was the beds that was there there was beds were still in that bothy and there was there were three of them must have been in the bed you see, and then there was a a board that they slipped in half up the bed and there was a a mattress or whatever on that and another three on that. +There would have been six in a in a bed. +Aye. +So they wouldn't have been cold. +Well it's s it's like the fishing girls here. +There were three in each bed. +In ea in each bed? +Yes. +Single beds? +Yeah just a just a wooden bit of wood at the front and a a wooden bottom and then they had erm bed what did they call bed-sacks they call them +Yes. +and they got chaff from the farms you see, they were sent down before the fishing and they filled that and they lay on that. +And then dumped it when they went away. +And I'll tell you what they what they each curing station used to have what they call foy before they went away. +Yeah, yeah. +Like what we would call a part, but they called them foys +Yes and they used to have dances there.. +Was it just kind of like a dance? +Just like a dance and they sung and they had just in each station you could hear them in Papa Stronsay we could hear them singing and dancing. +Just er we lived down at the bottom of the village there. +Tell me you were saying about the tell me what happened at the muckle suppers. +What happened in when you came in with the har what was the +Well it was just the They had the tables set you see in the hall. +Just tables set and you just sat er in the Hall Do you mean in the Hall here? +No I mean before the hall Odness . +Oh that well it Well it was just like sitting in in the barn and this well it was a laugh. +The +Mhm. +The band was down below and then a loft, a long wooden just like a dance hall up above and they just did that and they just they had tables set and then they removed them for the dances. +Yes and they would maybe been one melo one melodeon playing for the whole evening or one fiddle. +Mm. +And that would fill the whole hall and everybody dancing like mad it was good. +And as Nana said, amplifiers and everything. +Same here. +Till we got bands up and it was just a a fiddle +Yes. +and a m and a melodeon. +Yes, nineteen thirties before they start getting a band. +Yes. +Yes they just had one maybe one melodeon or one fiddle, but played for the whole dance and you could hear it from end to end of the hall. +Then they had dances in the schools in the South school and the Central school and school and d and the North school. +There would have been dances in them. +Through the Winter. +Mhm. +was it always the same food there? +It was always well there was always hens and beef and mutton and +pork and dumplings I suppose be dumplings and +Just a Yes Mhm. +All that different things +Yes just all your plate was just and then turnips and potatoes and dishes of that boiling hot set on the table. +Not so much er trifle and that till lately . +No. +No. +Trifle and the cold kind of sweets start later on. +But it would been hot stuff you see to begin with. +Mhm. +And they didn't have just one s black stove in the hall to begin with. +Yes. +They didn't have any fancy things to cook on. +It was all taken up from home you see. +Hot ready to put on the table. +Oh it was a hard working night for all the women and the dances went on t four o'clock in the morning and a wedding nearly went on all night. +It started eight o'clock sharp. +And everybody was there at eight o'clock. +They weren't coming dragging in twelve ad ten, eleven or twelve like what they are now. +They st the dance started eight o'clock. +And that was the dancing? +Yes, mm. +And then they'd a fancy dress at Christmas, at Hogmanay. +Yes. +Always a fancy dress, it was always and sausages. +Generally that night. +When was that when was that started? +Well that was when we was before fifty five sixty year ago it was you see. +Mhm. +Mhm. +But well I'd have been in my teens then. +Mhm. +And is was that over in +No no it was in the drill hall. +They called it the drill hall then it's now the community centre but it's the drill hall. +And then the bought the drill hall and turned it into the public hall and presented it to the island. +Mhm. +Mhm. +I was one of the ones that bought for it. +Aye it was bought it and presented it to the island. +Yes. +And it was the public hall supplied cups and everything. +Mm. +Public hall . +And that's +No that's it that's the same hall done up. +It's been done up you see, it's been altered and it's now the community centre they call it is it not Nana? +Aye it's the community centre. +Aye. +But it was the public hall. +It was g gifted to the island by the W I. +Mhm. +W I started in nineteen twenty four. +What was that like when it started? +Well it was just something similar to what it is now. +Mhm. +Yes. +Just something similar trip to Kirkwall in the Summertime eh. +In June, June trip to Kirkwall on with a boat and +What were your meetings like to start with, can you remember the first meetings ? +Yes grand me well I +She'll mind it because she was one of the first +I'm I'm not a founder member. +No. +I I joined in twe nineteen twenty seven. +In nineteen twenty four. +But I was a member then and it there were a big crowd in it and we just did. +Just grand meeting you know and we had dances and it was good really good. +Aye the W I sitting and it's kept going in Stronsay. +We were up there last night and she won a prize. +Yes you won a prize, special prize last night. +It was for the programme, making up a programme, the syllabus for the whole year. +Mhm. +I've been a member for er fifty eight year, the W I and I'm a member in Kirkwall now . +mhm. +What did the men think of the W I when it first started meeting. +I'll give you a poem to read. +She made up a poem for the diamond diamond jubilee. +Oh I see. +Here. +And er . +Yeah, she'll read it to you. +It's good. +Oh they had good nights and there were always a crowd of boys there and they used to come in and pinch the . +write it out like that and then my grandson erm +Framed +framed it for me. +Last for last Christmas. +Oh sorry. +What did the the men think when it started up? +Oh the men you see, er the men were invited certain times like for whist drives and that and the dances and they oh they all +When the +The called it the Silly Women Running Idle, but that was just for fun. +Mm. +But they were all erm delighted with it I would say. +and the whist drives was always +Yes they they amalgamated then this parties and that and they had the you see. +And then the North end . +The club +Aye clubs yes, clubs. +Mhm and they played darts and whist and all that kinds of things. +That's very good. +My goodness +that's just +very good. +That was what I I wrote and I well I read that out to them at the at that night. +That night +Very good. +Yes. +that was last year. +Yes that was the diamond jubilee. +Yes. +just last year you see cos nineteen twenty four it start and Stronsay was well on the first to have to start the W I. +Yeah. +Cos Mrs the l what they called the laird it was his wife that was the president first. +She she . +Aye. +Yeah. +And that was Stronsay there were about the first to have a diamond jubilee. +Yeah. +There's some just having it now and some not even still had it you see. +Mhm. +But you were one of the first to start. +I wasn't a founder member. +I was in nineteen twenty seven. +So I'm about er well the one that's kept it up Mrs Cooper always going too. +Yes. +Has kept it up all along. +And w and been a member for the whole time. +And and went to it every time. +Still going, there are a lot of members like oh erm Ruby from Mount Pleasant, she's a founder member. +Yes. +But she doesn't I don't think she goes now. +No. +But she was I think she was secretary and Cissy Miller of Hunton was treasurer. +The one was secretary, the other was treasurer. +When it start. +And you were telling me the other clubs men men had +They had +what were they? +They had Well they had a club at the South school. +And they had one down here +And they had one here at the Y what they call the Y M. at a hut down here. +Y M C A . +Well they did er they'd dance and whist and did different things like that. +Just did games . +And they had competitions then and they had competitions with the South End you see. +North End against the South End. +Same as they had the football teams. +They had the South End football and football team and the North end football team and the football team. +I never remember the football team. +to the matches like but I remember the North End and the South End. +Willie would mind the . +Yes he would mind it he would been he was in it. +Aye. +And then they went to the different islands and I remember this for when we were at the hotel me brother and me went across, well me was on it too we were all young then. +And we went across in small boats to Sanday and what a night. +What a bad night. +It was just really terrible I mean the first I was just scared stiff that I never couldn't enjoy the dance on Sanday I was that scared of the thought coming back . +It was terrible, about twenty of us in that boat. +you know it was small boats. +Did you do that a lot then, back and forth ? +Yes and and then when the lifeboat came, the Eday and and Sanday and them a lot of them came across for the dances, the lifeboat dances, it was really I would say the best time +Yes. +you know, for the people amalgamated. +We had grand times. +Beauti lovely dances. +Robbie and then they had a boat and they went across. +Jim told me they went he went and fore sixteen times one night. +putting folk there and come back, and putting them and coming back and he then he did, that was four loads he would have had you see and then had to take them all back home again. +It was it was good gr grand times I would say. +There wouldn't have been many on the island then was there? +No. +No. +No. +No. +Well if you start thinking,everyone that's in the island's nearly . +For my father came from Westray well he was an incomer from Westray. +When I say incomers I mean folk +Yes +No No. +I mean, +I know +. +Mhm. +Well mother belong to Stronsay. +Yes. +Father came from Westray. +Did she tell you anything about what life was like when she was young? +Yes she used to tell us and my me gran used to tell us and +She used to tell us about the you see they weren't allowed to make er malt and that. +You know bre for brewing. +They brewed ale you see. +Ale ale was one of the things that they ate they they drank they put ale on their porridge. +Yes. +Because they would have likely made their butter unsalted butter. +Yes. +And they put ale like home-brew ale on their porridge. +My gran used to always used to do that . +And she used to tell us like and and things like that. +And she said about the she said about this er when they made this malt. +There were a man that used to come and they called him the gauger well we would likely call him the customs officer now. +Yes. +The excise man. +Mhm. +And he used to come and they could see him coming for he had to come in a cart. +And they used to dig a hole and bury it. +And she used to tell me about her burying it with her father you see, the sacks of malt so that he didn't find it. +Oh yes. +And was it a Stronsay man that was the gauger or +No no he came from he would have come from Kirkwall. +Mm. +Mhm. +And then you see there were no telephones and things then. +No telephones, nothing like that. +Just telegrams to begin mainly. +And when the Orcadian came to Stronsay, the paper, the a man used to read he used to get the Orcadian and read the news on the pier. +They tell me that yes. +Oh yes. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Everybody didn't have Orcadian like what they have now. +Mhm. + +It was just a very low part, there was a little shopping area just round there at the time er, a butcher's shop and a greengrocer's shop and a Post Office, Street was the Post Office on the corner, and then Street and Road which lead down into , Lane and just round oh just round there you see, but I was born at the last house in the Street almost at the bottom of Street. +Now then what else do you want to know? +What sort of house was it? +Oh just an ordinary house, nothing er nothing pretentious. +A terraced house? +A terraced house yes, yeah. +And how many rooms downstairs? +Three up three down. +And where did you move from there? +We went into Street for a few years and then we came up here in nineteen twenty eight. +Erm why did they move to Street, your family? +Oh it was a bigger house, better house altogether ah that was a very nice house, a very nice garden as well. +Was that sort of house typical of the area? +Well it was a question in those days whether you got a bay window or a flat window I mean erm the houses down Street are better quality I suppose really er all property around there is rented, I mean no one bought the houses at all not even up , I mean they were all rented houses. +Er and I remember, I remember Street West, when the right hand side of Street west going from Road, every house was empty before the First World War and they gave somebody er somebody who lives in the end one and they were rent free if they keep all the rest clean, and always you see house to let where wherever it was in every street there was houses to let, and the price of the house in Street must be about eight shillings a week in those days, and then if you went up to I mean you'd get in the twelve and sixpenny bracket and down in, those houses down in the that they were ten and six or something like that er +So would you say that that was the smart side of ? +Oh yes yes, yes you'd say that was the smart side of Caldmore, but er +What ways did the families differ then that lived in those sort of houses to the families that lived in the terraced houses ? +Oh I I think, think that they differed in as far as they were a tiny little bit more ambitious and wanted a sort of erm a a little bit better life, but everybody even in the terraced houses they were all very respectable people, very respectable people I mean er I +Were any of the families considered rough? +No, no I can, I can honestly say that I don't think there was any, any what you can call rough families as I can remember. +Now you take all those, take Street and Street, they were all very respectable people and er I don't think you could say there were any slums about at all as far as I can remember. +Now you go to Road and Street and round there, probably that wasn't quite as er as nice but Street and Street they were very nice people, very respectable. +So some streets were considered better than others? +Oh yes yes er I should say that er Street er Street then you get into Palfrey now you see Palfrey was a little bit less due to the fact that there were a hell of a lot of railway men at work down there, I mean really all belonging to some department on the railway, you get er drivers and all the men and the permanent way of being in Street I mean a lot of people from Palfrey lived down lived in Palfrey was working in the permanent way in Street, so it was a really, Palfrey you could say was a railway community. +Now if you come to Caldmore, you'll find out then that the majority of the married ladies had worked in I mean I should say that erm I know my mother was very snooty she'd been an apprentice to some dressmakers in Street and work for one year for nothing she always used to tell me, and she was quite er toffee- nosed about these girls that used that er that used to go, well they were very respectable people, and when I was a kid when I growing up in my teens a lot of the girls I used to know were in the offices at er it they employed about fifteen hundred people at in those days you know I mean coming out of at night it was fighting your way against the crowd if you were going towards it, and the same thing going through the square for people who have worked in when they left that's why all those shops in the square used to do reasonably well, it was the people walking through to go up the other side of Walsall, but there was a crowd of people I can, I can always remember as a kid a crowd of people and then there'd be well you can tell it was along Street in those days I can remember fruiters' carts where the girls used to go and buy apples, and that all sort of going along there you know people used to wait for them coming out, these are my impressions as a kid I mean I can remember the, the er and the men of course were cutters and various people and a quite a lot of my father's friends were, were er had er skilled jobs at as cutters and managers of the cutters' department and that sort of thing. +Then, then of course there weren't no traffic signs in the middle of the road, it was a sort of er certain people from went and started that up and er they were all wor all worked in Caldmore it was almost as though the tailoring Caldmore was full of tailors in a way then there were people starting up on their own making clothes, but er there was quite a lot of tailors around er I know there was he'd got a shop on Caldmore, he was a tailor and er shall we go through all the shops? +Yes. +Well we'll start off at the top of Road and on the one side there was the furniture people they used to make furniture. +Did they make it on the premises? +Oh yes they made it Miss has just died erm then coming down there was the Post Office with old Pa and the, then the Miss , they used to keep the Post Office, then there was er well there was a gents outfitters and then there was a beautiful shop I always used to think, it was called, another , but it was confectioners, but it was all most delightful old oldy-worldy sort of shop and my mother often used to go in there then you'd +Tell me a bit more about that shop then. +About that shop. +There was a Victorian air about it somehow there were, there were quite ladies who'd kept it, almost the same sort of thing as you'd find out in the country, country Ye Olde Elizabethan Coffee Shop type of thing you know, they they'd be the er there was that atmosphere about it and you'd buy lovely cakes and things like that. +Then coming on to the end of Street next door was a milliners, now that nobody knows what they are today Miss the name was and then coming across Street to the other side was which was a drapers, and next coming down was Smiths the butcher's shop, and next to that was the grocers, following on down there was the ironmonger, then there was the newspaper, and you come down to the White Hart erm then we come to the White Hart +Do you remember anything about that? +Oh yes er I think somebody kept it around father's day, a chap named , but it was a beautiful old place and he always, because my father always used to erm start off about seven o'clock in the morning to walk down to Walkers and er call in at the White Hart because they were open at six o'clock in the morning, for a rum and coffee for about tuppence or thruppence, then he always used to er go to his mother's for his breakfast and er he used to go down and see all the men start off and then, then slip over to his mother's, she lived on the Road and er she, for years and years this went on that he had his break he never had his breakfast at home he'd start off going down there and come back to his mother's, but he always stopped at the White Hart for his rum and coffee +Did many people go in ? +Oh yes yes oh well yes for a rum and coffee yeah, and I'm afraid it was very acceptable on a winter's morning, but erm now we come, we've come on that side of Road, we'll now start at the top of Road again and come along as far as er what I call Street I believe it's now where St Michael's church is, and you come to Sammy the butchers. +Now Sammy was a character in himself he was a bachelor and his wi his sister was Fanny the elocutionist er and, and er there the women used to, to go into old Sammy's shop on a Friday night simply to be entertained by all the wisecracks and nonsense that used to go on in there, and somebody would say I suppose you're off this weekend and he'd say yes I'm off to my little widow in Wales, he hadn't got a little widow in Wales at all now but it would the start of the conversation going. +My mother's been up there and she didn't come back for two hours and she came back we kept well he'd sold a lot of meat in the meantime. +The next three shops was which was a er he become I think in the finish but it was a toy shop and then you came to er the fruiters, on the other side of Street, and you came down to er little pawnshop. +I, I shall be seeing the you know in a few weeks time the daughter she's a, she's er Rene that was erm Eddie , who were very big pals of mine and we go to the anniversary lunch together so we're all over eighty but erm you couldn't the bread shop, was another confectioner's shop, and then turning round the corner you come to another shop, up two steps, which was and that was another type of confectionery and shop, then you get as far as the corn and seed people er they used to have a shop in Street as well, and then before the First World War there was the butchers and they sold foreign meat. +Fourpence ha'penny a pound this New Zealand lamb was I remember. +Mother wouldn't have anything to do with it whatsoever, don't you bring anything, any of that stuff into our house, I mean of course it be this New Zealand lamb had just arrived on the scene before the First Word War, I mean nobody was, anybody dare have it I mean they'd be standing on the pavement at eleven o'clock at night almost giving it away on Saturday night, but anyway that's all changed now, we all eat it. +Then you got to er the picture house er that happened just before the First World War that was put up as far as I can remember, I know I used to go there and see erm the Broken Coin which was a serial picture and it was you know er where somebody was up to their neck in water one week and it would say that the continuation of this picture would be shown in this theatre one week from today and you . +what was it like inside? +Pardon? +What was it like inside? +Nice, very nice, you went up a long hall toward, as soon as you got er through the doors it was very nice really, quite, quite something for Caldmore anyway. +Then on the corner of Street and Green was the tobacconist shop. +Then coming along Street you come to the picture frame people and then the Conservative Club, then there was the big house further on towards the top of Street and that was owned by somebody named Winnie , was my second wife's she went to school with her they used but her father lived there, and on the other side of the road you got the toy shop and er the draper's shop on the corner of er Road then there was the newsagents and one or two people kept that, but that takes you from the top of Street straight the way up to Caldmore. +Now on Green, now we go, we've come along from the top of Street right along Road, the toy shop then you get to the Kings Arms and on the other side of the road there was another pub and I can't remember the name of it, then there was the fish shop and then the Liberal Club then the pork butchers you'd think they were all full of meat. +There were a lot of butchers. +Butchers and er then there was the butchers and that was on the corner of and er and and then cross over there towards Street you've got the stores, then you come the, the er drapers, then er Tommy the butcher who was my first wife's uncle and then you come to a shop which was owned by one or two people, which was a sort of er general store and then my mother-in-law's shop a cook's which was +What sort of shop was that? +Which was a bakers and confectioners, they used to er bake at the, they got the er the bakehouse at the back and they used to make confectionery and high class bread. +And what sort of shop was it itself was it a large shop? +Oh quite a nice shop, yes very nice shop. +Would they display the bread? +Oh yes, yes in the, in the window yes I think and many and many a ticket I got when I first got married to my first wife I used to do my mother-in-law's little tickets for all the various custards, and, and Eccles cakes and four for thruppence ha'penny it doesn't of course I could print right you see she said, being a draughtsman I always could print right so I used to do the four for thruppence ha'penny. +How much are they today? +Well I bought, I bought three custards the other day and I think they were about fifty three pence. +Have you got any special memories about any of these shops at all for any reason? +Any that you used to go in a lot that you can tell me about? +Perhaps for instance. +Oh yes I used to go and fetch the er erm I used to go into every week, oh there was the maypole next to as well. +I used to go and fetch the, the butter from don't bring margarine my father used to say we put better stuff on our machines so er I used to go to for my father kept foul, I used to fetch a peck of, bushel of this and a bushel of, you know all the various things that, bran and stuff for the foul yes, yes and I believe a lady, she has, she's only recently died and but she kept it for a long long while Elsie her name was. +And what was it like inside were ? +Oh yes, sacks of other and they used to have a proper corner seedman's shop, which you don't see about today the er Garden Centre has knocked all that on the nut hasn't it really? +What about chemist. +Whereabouts was that? +That was er coming down from Street you come to then you come to the grocers and was next- door there +that's the only link with Caldmore as it used to be and Caldmore as it is now +Maybe +because it's still there. +Yes probably yes. +And what sort of shop was it in your day when you were young Michael? +Oh quite a nice shop. +I used to know, I used to play at tennis with Bay , the daughter and er the eldest daughter she married another chemist and he ran the place afterwards I think, then there was Jack but er I, I used to know, I used to know quite a lot of the er people on the, who kept these shops. +Was it the sort of chemist that erm was it the sort of chemist that you'd go in if you'd got something the matter with you and rather than go to the doctor, they would sort of dole out something for you? +Well I've never had the experience and I don't think my family have, I er no I shouldn't think it was really, they might, I suppose somebody, they used to have a reputation at one time these chemists was doing minor, giving you something for some minor ailment, but I wouldn't care to sort of er, I'd never think of it, no there were quite a lot of doctors about you know, there was er Doctor at the top of Road and there was Doctor , Doctor oh there was a lot of doctors about. +Were you sent to Sunday School when you ? +Oh yes rather. +Which one did you used to go to? +Well my mother was one of the pillars of the Palfrey church and er she er oh I went, my father never used to go, but she used to go and of course I, I used to be an altar server down there when I got a bit older I did for a week or two to the erm do you know anything about an Anglo-Catholic Church I mean where they swing the incense and there is this little boy with the boat? +I was that for about, I soon got fed up with that job. +How old were you when you did that? +Oh about eight, seven or eight, but when we first went there the honourable S G W was the vicar, fourth son of the Earl of and er, oh you he was there then afterwards er Father came, and I used to do altar serving oh I was never interested in it you know I was forced into it. +Who forced you into it? +My mother I remember there was a sale of work going on at Palfrey church once and bef I had just been made apprentice at Wolverhampton and of course I got amongst the, they, when they came the, the Derby day they were all having a bet on it so I, I said to the give them half a crown, so he said you can't have half a crown and he said what do you want it for so I said they're putting it on a horse was on this horse it won, so of course this sale of work was in great progress when I gets off the train at station and thought well I couldn't understand in er Palfrey Church Hall, so she was there in all her finery and I said we've won, we've won she said shut up, shut up she said but erm no I think the biggest character in Caldmore was Father . +What do you remember about him? +Oh I don't, I just, I remember that er if you walked down er Road at night you'd see him with his mortar board on and his curate by his side coming down to to post the letters, and then when all these ladies were in Sammy shop one night being entertained by Sammy erm Father and his curate went by, and old Sammy turned round to the audience and said well if dressing up will get him anywhere they'll be on the first row in heaven. +I was there that night I was, sometimes when I was a little boy I used to go with my mother you know to, for the ent I didn't know whether, yells of laughter used to come out of his shop. +I'm trying to explain to you that there was a different atmosphere about it, the whole situation, I know they were hard times, I know that some people had some really rough times but it didn't show very much, and when I come to think of all my parents' friends I don't remember anybody having a wife bashing episode or they all seemed to be very contented with their lot somehow except one, and that was a little bit dicey when I was a little kid, but the man died and the Observer the next week the er obituary notice was put in the paper and underneath they'd got, with Christ which is far better and my father said and they she couldn't have said anything better words +Do you remember anything more about Father ? +Yes oh I ee I, I'm led to understand that he, he built that church and I'm led to understand that at the same time he started, he came as a curate to St Matthew's and then he came to Street into a house and he had a little, he started a little church down there in a private house and then he built the church. +He very wealthy, but oh dear dear he was a, he was a, tyrannical I should call him, I know for a fact that he used to before the choir walked in at night he'd have his watch out in his hand and they'd start at exactly the same time. +I remember when he always used to read out during the service before the sermon the previous week's collection and it used to consist of the collection last Sunday consisted of one pensioning note, twenty ha'penny half crown pieces, forty florins and he'd go all through the coinage down to the last ha'penny but erm oh I believe he was, he was er very aristocratic, very aristocratic, but er Father , cos he used to come over our house quite a lot when my mother was on the parochial church council, and er he had a curate that was quite leftish and he got himself on the old Board of Guardians and of course he used to sort of er go into the Labour Club and was quite of er father, he said to old Father one night he said erm he's a funny chap your curate he said well he , he's the son of a farm labourer he says and I'm the son of a country squire and that's the difference. +So that was the attitude hey, but erm they'll have me up for libel here. +Tell me about some of these other characters around, can you recall anyone? +Well old was, was er absolute er you'd never think anybody'd would buy anything out of his shop, er my father went in for something once and he, and he said you can see them hanging up can't you, I mean er salesmanship was on unheard of as far as he was concerned they were there, why ask him if he'd got any, but erm course you must remember I was only a little boy I mean I can remember all this, I took it all in but I wouldn't say that I knew them er I knew Miss , from the grocer's shop she was a Sunday School teacher, and er the Sunday School used to be at Road School we used to have a Sunday School there and a Mr used to take this. +He was another character er there was er I remember they used to have a lot of socials and things at the church you know, it was very well attended I suppose in those days. +Don't know what it's like now. +What about the Conservative Club and the Liberal Club did they, were they more social clubs? +Oh yes, er yes they were, they were er of course there was a great divide there I mean between the Liberals I mean they were the only two parties in those days. +The Conservative Club was there before the, the Liberal Club. +I think if the Liberal Club was only like First World War it wasn't there it hasn't always been there but the Conservative Club was there as long as I can remember. +Do you recall any of the activities that were associated with either of them? +Did what? +Do you recall any of the activities that were associated? +Well I was in the tennis club when I was a er they used to have a tennis court at the back. +Which club was that? +Conservative Club, and my wife she wa we were both members there oh and there was a, I tell you another shop that probably I haven't mentioned, just before you get to the White Hart there was Thompsons the butcher's shop with er they got three or four er daughters I remember. +Why do you think there were so many butcher's shops? +there was a lot of meat I suppose really I mean erm +answer. +I mean were there sort of different quality meats being sold +all the rest were +No difference +No of course one or two of them had slaughter houses at the back of them you know. +I see +I mean er +Which were those? +Well Tommy used to slaughter all his cattle and er you see my father-in-law's bakehouse and his slaughter house were next to one another an open yard at the back of the shops and er +How did the cattle arrive? +Oh driven up from the station from the, from the goods yard oh yes. +Was that in Street Walsall or ? +Yes a long street or somewhere around there, and yes I mean many oh many a time I've, you'd see ca every Wednesday night you'd see the cattle being driven up. +Always the same night was it? +Yeah, and one got stuck in the, there was an entry between my father-in-law's shop and the next one and one of these cattle ran down the entry and got stuck in the entry, you know it was only narrow and the they had to shoot it, but er oh yes it was a, that was a thing you never hear of today and you never hear of people putting tannin down when people are ill do you? +You see Walsall being a leather town there was a lot of this er bark tannin as went and when anyone who was ill so they wouldn't hear the noises of the horse driven vehicles going by they used to, for about fifty yards each side of the house they used to put this stuff in the road to deaden the sound. +Do you recall this being done? +Oh yes. +And what, where did this happen that you remember? +Oh I've known it happen all over Caldmore. +So it was a regular happening? +Oh yes they put this, this tannin down it was like a bark I don't know what it was cos I'm not in the leather trade, I, I don't know much about it except that it was some by-product from the of the er tanning process, and they used to put this stuff down when people were ill. +So with you mentioning leather then it leads me onto another question erm was there much done in the way of leather work in the Caldmore area? +Oh rather yes, out-work, people used during the First World War there were no end of people were sort of er especially if they'd had a bit of experience in the leather industry like harness and saddlery and that sort of thing, especially the harness and er other work attached to leather cavalry and er revolver holsters and that sort of thing, they'd do them at home you know oh yes there was er now Walsall's divided isn't it? +It's got leather and, and iron and steel, now you come onto the Road and you wouldn't think there a leather factory about would you? +Because from top to bottom it was all connected with iron and steel the whole lot all the way down. +You go from er Hopeworths, Mason and Burnhams, John , Gill and Russells, Walker Brothers it was er a terribly industrial, well you could fi Road used to be all granite sets in the road, there wasn't the, because there was so much traffic went up and down er it was all made of granite sets when I, when I was a kid, but my, shall I tell you what I used to do when I was a kid for my Saturday morning? +Well first of all I'd go down Street and up Street West and up to the top of Street and there was some puddling furnaces, the new side iron works and I'd watch those men they'd produce wrought iron and during the process the metal boils up and I'd have to get a big rubbling bar and rubble they'd call rubble into a ball, there's a little wagon put underneath the put under the wagon and off he goes to the steam hammer, now I used to be fascinated with this and Saturday after Saturday I used to go up there and watch one of the heats and as soon as they'd finished doing they used to go into the Forge and Hammer for a drink, I mean it was such hard work so they'd do a heat go up the Forge and Iron and come back and then do another heat when I'd +How long would it take to do a heat? +Oh I should think it would be the best part of an hour and er then I'd go along Street down into Walker Brothers call in my father's office. +Can I go in the rolling mills? +I used to go into the rolling mills and watch them rolling steel sheets and over about half an hour there, this was Saturday after Saturday after Saturday I used to do this. +I'd come along Road and up Lane into Street to a shop that had got rabbits in the window. +I used to walk along there to see these rabbits I think the name was and they, it was a barber's shop that had got these sold all sorts of pet things and that I used to, then I used to come home that was my Saturday morning, but I always used to go in up to the news line. +Now the funny thing about it, when I took metallurgy I got, I, I got all this process I knew all about it you know, and er I had it the theory explained to me then, but er I was in the Bell one day about twenty years ago and an old boy came in and I started talking to him and he says, I bet you don't know what I am? +I said no I don't, he said well what I was anyway he said I'm retired now. +He says you'll never guess. +I said well what was it? +He says I was a puddler. +I said, were you? +He said you don't know what that was, that is do you? +I said I do a bit, so er he said, well do you know anything about it? +I said a bit, and I never let him know, I thought I'll wait a little bit until he go so he says to me, he says I bet you don't know why they put the damper in just before they'd put the, bring the ball out do you? +I said yes I do, he says you know? +I said course I know I said to put some of the carbons from the smoke back into the, into the er wrought iron, he says how did you find that out? +And I told him that er all about it, but I said do they make, do they do this puddling these days, he says yes at West Bromwich they still do it, but er they used to do it up on +Do you recall what they used to wear? +Moleskin trousers. +Were there any protective gear of any kind? +No no just the used to wear like a, a pork pie hat. +Did he wear anything in par +No no no no not that I know of. +Did you see them load the furnace? +Oh yes they used to put pig sc iron and scrap in it. +Pig iron you know er pig iron was what they had I've seen them pouring furnaces pouring it onto the pig beds, and you know when I was a kid when we lived in Caldmore from about half past nine at night all across West Bromwich, Wednesbury all over that area, you'd see the sky light up and it was due to the pouring of er pouring the pig iron. +They open up the these blast furnaces and the, we'd all be in the open air and the reflection there used to be quite a reflection in the sky all round there. +Did, getting back to Caldmore. +Erm were there any small workshops around doing odd things you may recall, sort of small set-ups? +No I don't think there were, there might have been one or two, yes I do know one that used to make some form of er something for the saddlery trade and you know those houses opposite the alms houses in Road, there are some alms houses on the one side, then there's some houses that lie up steps on the other side of the road if they're still there. +The back of there there used to be one or two people who used to have little outhouses where they used to sort of make things, and my grandfather up the Pleck, he was a good locksmith and he had his shop at the back of the house and he cou he could watch the Walsall races going on, which is now where the Road is, from his workshop before Street was put and any of those and he could stand in his workshop and watch the races. +And when would that be? +Oh oh in the eighteen nineties I should think eighteen eighties, eighteen nineties. +And did he have any men working for him or did he work on his own? +Yes he er he had a nephew for part time but he was a now he was a Wolverhampton Grammar School boy. +His two brothers both died with smallpox cos one was, they all three went to Wolverhampton Grammar School and they were a Wednesbury family and they died with the smallpox but I thought they were putting the youngest which was my grandfather for the best trai one was going in for law and the other was going in for medicine, and the youngest was go which was the same as engineering is today I suppose, and he went into the gun trade, and I can remember him, he was a grand old chap and er he used to come and bring the springs that he'd made and to temper them he used to throw them in the kitchen fire, and they'd die out and get them all out of the ashes in the morning, and he used to take his week's work in his waistcoat pockets and his day out was to get on the tram at the Brown Lion, and go straight through Wednesbury and right through West Bromwich up to the Constitutional in Birmingham to Greeners or Wembley and Scotts and he'd got these gun locks as he'd made during the week in his waistcoat pockets. +They were very small then? +Yeah. +That's interesting. +Yes and er my mother was frightened to death of guns because, oh he was a bit of a boy at heart I mean you can just imagine everybody used to bring the sporting guns to be repaired and there was guns floating about all over the place, and my mother was scared stiff of guns right till the time she died er, and he got mixed up with all these sporting connections you know like go off to shoots and various things and I think he did a bit of cock fighting in his day as well, but I've, I've got the exercise books that his two brothers. +Do you want to see them? +You can show me? +I can show you afterwards aye you can have a look at them and see what you think about them. +Erm yes aye that's the Pleck that's not Caldmore you know. +Yes yes but very interesting all the same. +Yeah oh yes he oh and he was erm being better educated than the majority of people in the Pleck he used to stand outside the Brown Lion to read the newspaper out to them cos they couldn't read, and he attended all the weddings, all the funerals and er made the wills out and he almost was the father confessor for the Pleck, and when the old steam tram came off the lines down in the Pleck, when there was a steam train coming through there, he was the man who put it on the rails again. +What was his name? +John . +Tell me about transport through Caldmore when you were a young man. +Do you mean public transport? +Well both sorts. +Non-existent until about I shouldn't think there was an a bus did come to the bottom of Road, I can't remember what was, it must have been about nineteen twenty I suppose something like that, it used to go to the bottom of Road and turn round there, but I never er my mother always used to say you'd ruin the trade, the trade down well I don't believe it did really er now I think the lack of transport now you've hit something there, lack of transport there encouraged people to shop in Green rather to go down the town cos you could get anything off Green you know, you just think you'd ju you, you smiled about the er butcher's shops, the grocer's shops, the cake shops, you could get the gents , you could get anything on Green the ironmonger shop, you needn't go anywhere else but, when they started transport er yes I think the buses had quite a bit gradually cos things that, you don't think get things happening in this country overnight I mean, they grow on you don't they? +I mean you get a bus coming as far as Road and back I don't suppose it has half a dozen folks on what's this thing coming up here, nobody I'd er I've walked into Walsall all my life and but gradually the whole thing changes doesn't it, and then the thing gets off as far as West Bromwich, and in, then, then there's through traffic and then how far and the Green's not big enough to take the turn around up Road then they change the direction, and it's all done on bit by bit by bit and so Green's got eroded it's er +So they took bits of Green away then? +Oh yes they did for, for the increase in traffic I mean that er that er went on over the years gradually creep, creep, creep on until the whole atmosphere of the place was er I don't know improved should you say or not I don't know whether it's er well it certainly hasn't improved but erm it changed, it was such a lovely little place really, and of course you could run across the road whenever you liked I mean we used to play in Street of picking out in a sweet shop window er a name be Cadbury's or chocolate or something you'd be standing across the road and you'd be running backwards and forwards backwards and forwards, there was no sign of anyone getting run over cos there was nothing about, and when I was a kid going to the Bluecoat School I'd run across that bridge every morning without looking right or left, because if anything had hit me, well nothing used to be coming you could see a tram coming but oh there was nothing else at that time in the morning oh no it was, wouldn't like to run across today. +What about private transport in Caldmore about this time, how was, what was that? +Do you mean somebody who owned a er some kind of vehicle, tradesmen some of the tradesmen did but not many that I can remember, no I don't think there was too many of them. +Would private individuals have their own transport? +No no no no there was nobody, now er probably up at the top of Gallway there though one or two would have er stables I should think, one or two of those houses, but by and large no I shouldn't think so. +Now there is another, another part it's very nice and that is round Lane and er Road and all round there used to be very nice at one time. +Do you know it? +Er +I can't er +Were there any open rural areas? +Oh yes. +Yes my playground. +Go up Road, and from there turn down Follyhouse Lane the continuation of it and you'd come right to the Dales and nothing at all from there to West Bromwich, and you could see, if you go over one stile from one field then onto another and then brook that now runs through the Road there, that used to be a little country brook that run across the golf course and there was a little stile over it, a little bridge and a stile, then you go straight up to Dells common and not a house in sight. +Was it open farmland? +No , cut straight across it. +I mean that's what cut straight the way across that it was, it was all and my aunt she used to live by All Saints West Bromwich, we never used, we never went to see them we used to walk it down the road past the Boars Head onto the Navigation Inn, and up by the Sandlow and she used to live opposite er All Saints Church in West Bromwich, and erm coming back we should come back round midnight you know and er have you ever heard of the Whirly Gang? +Yes. +Has that come up in your er in your well we were coming back there one night from my aunt's and er there were quite a lot of policemen about and I was only a little boy, it was before the First World War and my father said to one of these policemen, what's happening so, oh we had a tip-off he says that er there's these Whirly Gang folks and in the morning we saw somebody'd been maimed or killed, but er that was another bit of interesting news around, and I remember down in Caldmore one day there used to be some ladies who used to come from, well they used to be, one of them used to call them the salt ladies, they used to come with blocks of salt on a, on a I think they used to come from and I saw a horse there as a kid and I, it had got a long gash right across its body and I said to this lady I said, what's happened to this, she said oh the Whirly Gang and er I was in Paris in nineteen twenty two and er we got to this hotel and there was another Englishman on this trip and he said to me he said where do you come from? +I said Walsall he said oh the Whirly Gang +You just mentioned these salt ladies coming round. +Yeah. +Erm tell me a bit about that. +Well all the way from, they used to come from and they used to have some sunbonnets on, I always remember they used to have the, I'm not a dressmaker but you know a la they don't like frills down the back that used to hang down the back and the I remember them coming round selling blocks of salt. +Horse and cart? +Horse and cart and of course milk was never delivered by, in bottles in those days. +I mean that was always a milkman used, there used to be er James was one of the milkmen down Palfrey, he used to come . +they used to pour it out of a can you know, it's a wonder we didn't all die of tuberculosis but we didn't. +Did anyone else come round the streets selling things? +Oh yes the watercress man on a Sunday afternoon and er all the various things were s fruiters, fishmongers, all used to bring their stuff round. +How did you know they were in the street, did they have a call? +Shout, they'd shout something but er well since we've been living up here, my mother used to give, the man used to come for the order for the grocery, the baker used to come round, the milk used to come round, they all used to come round at she'd ha she didn't have go out for heavy loads of stuff to bring in it was all delivered, but when they started some new technique of er of ordering by computer, it's going to come back to square one again you know, they'll be delivering stuff in the same jolly old way hey. +Could be yes. +Yes don't you think? +Could be yes, yes. +Give it fifty years and I'll bet you that the baker and all the rest of the folks, it'll be coming from a supermarket, but they'll be delivering stuff that you've put on your computer. +That's right that would be interesting. +Hey er well, during, just after the war they started these concerts in the Temperance Hall. +Now the Temperance Hall was a very very nice hall er balcony all the way around, it held five or six hundred people er candelabras and all the rest of it, a lovely stage and these travelling concert parties used to come round on a Saturday night, and I should imagine they'd be doing the seasides during the summer and then they came back in the Walsall and various areas during the er winter months, and we used to get concert parties like The Roosters and The Bonbons and all those sort of people come along and they were real and of course fellas my age, I mean eighteen and nine we used to take our girls there I mean it was full of young people er you'd perhaps have been to the pictures one night and it's another way of entertaining really and it was really a first class entertainment. +Well my pal and myself we took these two girls and we sat in the middle of the Temperance Hall and he said come on let's sit over on the balcony he says and put up my clothes by the radiator he says it's been raining he says and it will dry them, so we moved, and exactly from were we moved was where the women got killed, just candelabra dropped on her and er when it happened the fella on the stage the comedian was singing, a hundred years from now you won't be here, and I won't be here and from the corner of my eye I could see something gradually dropping like one of these candelabras and I thought hello that's part of the act you know, it was just gradually coming down and all of a sudden, whooosh and the roof came straight in oh and I don't know sure I'd I, everything went dark of course I mean it was all in blacked-out all the chairs were loose, so as the folks wended their way towards the exit doors they took the chairs with them, so they politely threw them back in the crowd that stood in the hall so you were dodging chairs as well as trying to get out, where we were, where we were seated the firemen were hacking at the windows thinking that it was a fire because all the dust had gone up in the air and the reflection of the light from the market I suppose and that would give the appearance of smoke, and he was, I said to this fireman I said there's no fire, he says, he says there is I said there's no fire in here, anyway we eventually got out but I took these girls back home to and I really, it was, properly unnerved us both and as we came on that old tram we were, we thought you know everything seemed to sort of upset us and when I got far more upset on the Sunday morning when I went to have a look at it, the whole roof had come right in, but there were fifty people got injured you know and about, oh there was one lady killed. +I knew one of the girls and er she never got right properly again. +She got injured in her back somewhere, but er it was national news, I mean it was in The Mirror and all the papers and it became a, for a day or two it was er it was in everywhere, and the theory is that er it was this erm very very dry summer and a very very wet autumn and a bit of dry rot in the timbers somewhere, but it was it was another +How long did it actually take you to get out of there? +Oh, half an hour. +Quite a time really? +Yeah, yeah, oh yes of course a lot of the people were, that were in the we were in under the balcony but they were up to their knees in plaster and goodness knows what that had come out of the roof they couldn't move it all dropped round them. +So they had to wait to be dug out did they? +Yes I've +Good gracious, was anyone trying to organize the ? +Well you can't in the dark can you really? +You can't really, you see we came out into a side door into the old square. +I don't know what happened to the front entrance, but there was a basement underneath there and my first wife was dancing in Harvey Martin's dance hall underneath, her pal and herself she, they'd gone to this dance it was a dancing lesson on a Saturday night it was famous in those days Harvey Martin's dance class er yes I +Was, was there any damage down ? +No no no. +In the basement, it was just on the +Just on the top yeah +on the top of it +That's about all I can tell you about that, but er it makes you wonder whether I hadn't better keep out of Street, doesn't it? + +Ken, welcome back. +Could you introduce er the people, your team, particularly as I think one of them has a different name to the label in front of them. +Yes, I'm afraid Mike Kirkham has been delayed in Prague for today, so Nigel Spackman, who's a member of our Committee and is a deferred pensioner is taking his place and Les Taylor is the Secretary of our Maxwell Pension Action Group. +And you are Ken Trench? +I am Ken Trench, I am the Chairman of the Group. +Ken, we've you've given us er er er a document in re response to er the Good Committee and your views and so on. +We've got a number of questions we want to ask you, because er though you're pivotal to all of our erm activities in this enquiry, we are also looking to a report which is hopefully going to be influenced the Bill the Government brings forward. +So we will er if we may er not ask you to introduce your document we we'd like to get on with the questioning. +If at the end you feel there are points we haven't covered and I forget to invite you, would you say you would like to make a concluding statement. +Yes, by all means. +Very good. +Jimmy? +Well Ken, obviously everybody was abhorred regarding this national scandal of the the Maxwell er pension fraud that er the Committee who were making enquiries obviously were implementing the fact that we should have a report and Goodey was set up and the recommendations that have been laid down as far as Goodey is concerned in order to strengthen the pension scheme so that these frauds can happen again, now have you read the report? +Yeah, I've read I don't think I've read every thousand pages of it, but I've, I've I've done quite a lot of of it yes. +Mm, having read the report and possibly being on the end of the complaints from the pensioners in the Maxwell fraud er what was your view regarding the proposals that are being made? +Well, we feel that there's it's obviously quite a lot of points that are, are very good in the report, but we really feel that it's concentrated very much on the administration of pension schemes, rather than security and I think that whilst if everything that, everyone of his recommendations had been law, I think it would have made it more difficult for Maxwell, but I don't think it would have made in impossible for Maxwell and I think that what th what we see the problem is, is that in many ways the, the Maxwell problem was brought about by two major, major factors I think. +One was the failure of the self- regulatory body I M R O and the second one was really the fact that he was able to change his financial year end from April ninety-one to December ninety-one and during that period he was able to do things with those erm those funds in his accounts and er and really there was, there was no check on that, and I don't see that the that was in er Good would have changed much of that situation at that end. +It would have made it more difficult, but the way that Maxwell used to involve himself in bulk transfers, you know and move, move two hundred pensioners from there to there and er no money followed and this sort of thing, I think that er that he could of quite frankly done exactly the same thing and we really feel that the, that the role of the pension regulator and the and the opposing role with I M R O that, that you really if we're not careful, we're going to put in another layer of bureaucracy and have a pension regulator who's got the task of of checking a, a hundred and twenty eight thousand pension funds, when really there's probably out of those a hundred and twenty eight thousand, ninety-nine point five per cent of probably being very well well run and, and quite safe and what, what we can't really see in the report is a is a method of identifying the determined fraudster at a at a very early stage, you know and we're just terribly disappointed that er that Good has just thrown the whole of, of the matter back at I M R O who we feel have proved to tha that I don't think they're up to the task, I think that the that the whole question of er of the power of a self regulatory body which to us works on blowing the whistle, you know the whole the whole effect of a self regulatory body is that it's members that it, it's really like a club isn't it, you know and we're all members of this club and if one of us er is gonna do something wrong, then the rest of us are gonna have to pay for it. +Well, in the in the question of I M R O as far as it's erm occupational pension scheme members are concerned, er there's no there's no compensation responsibility and I think that that means that you get no, no whistle blowing and in I mean there's, we've got, I mean one of the points that we, we heard of just last evening was that one of the of the banks involved ended up er in its arrangements with Maxwell of asking for a hundred and sixty per cent of shares for every hundred per cent of loans that it made to Maxwell. +Now to me that means that that, that city organisation must have been very doubtful about the whole future of the Maxwell organisation when it was getting to that stage, and if one looks through the, through the Writs, you know which now, now number about the same number of pages as the as the Good Report, you know you will get an er a feeling of what Maxwell was doing and how that was all all being happened and with leaving all of that with I M R O we just don't think it's going to er er we don't think it would have saved the position. +Ken? +Well I think if I M R O I think if I M R O members had had a compen a compensation responsibility or er then I feel that the members would have would have would have allowed certain things to happen. +I mean when one starts to, to scratch the surface, let me just give one example I mean we feel er I M R O fails on on its membership I mean the fact that you had Bishopsgate Investment Management which was the beneficial owner was an organisation in Liechtenstein. +Now I M R O asked er we understand for the be the management of that organisation to give accounts for that for the c for the senior company to I M R O prior to its membership about a I think was about eight working days before I M R O approved that membership. +We we've asked I M R O if they actually got those accounts and what they learnt from the er from the Liechtenstein company and they've told us they can't, they can't tell us it's er it's private correspondence. +Can we actually pause there cos you've done a good bit of digging on that one. +Er David Shaw on this very I come back to you +Ken erm y you've asked some questions, I've actually seen the I M R O letter and can I say that there are two questions in the I M R O letter to Mr Maxwell and Bishopsgate, which quite categorically asked for accounts and also details of the ownership structure coming out of Liechtenstein. +I haven't seen the re final reply that went from er the Maxwell organisation to er I M R O but I did see a draft reply. +The draft reply contained one threat to report I M R O to the Securities and Investment Board for excessive enquiries er and for an unreasonable attitude and the other er bit of the reply was effectively a form of covering up presenting full financial information and disclosure to I M R O. Those replies were drafted by people inside the Maxwell organisation and you may want to comment on er the position, although I should stress at this stage that I like you have not seen the final version of any reply and I do not know whether I M R O persisted. +What we do know is that I M R O asked for this information in June nineteen eighty-eight and not long afterwards I M R O granted recognition to B I M and other Maxwell Companies, all the more surprising perhaps having raised the questions whether the question must come about, did they continue with their investigation, or did they let the matter drop and perhaps you might to comment in that context. +Well I think we can all, I mean I think just the fact that they were asking those questions I think literally days before they gave the approval worries me. +Ken, but asking the question is rather good, isn't it? +Oh, asking the questions is fine. +Cos they were actually on to something important. +Yes, but I would have thought that you know I M R O sh should of then I asked, I write and asked them the question, I r really would have expected a reply to come back, yes, we found this and so and so, but we then scraped a little bit further and erm. +Can I just ask on that Ken? +Yes. +Do you not think that almost regardless of the reply and whatever that reply contained, with what we now know with the benefit of hindsight about Liechtenstein, which was actually known by I M R O there's not for the benefit of hindsight that wasn't known at that time, shouldn't I M R O have refused immediately to license any organisation that was controlled out of Liechtenstein in those circumstances? +Absolutely, absolutely, I think you know, I I mean I just feel there should be a total ban on anywhere where where you can't get the information that you require, you know. +So let's leave it there and you, but you were saying Ken, you've scratched +Oh, I think the story goes on from there, because I don't think though and this is a personal opinion and I I'd love the Committee to I don't know tha that er I M R O ever did get accounts out of Liechtenstein because a year later B I M the m the ownership of it was transferred from Liechtenstein back to England but guess who the the, the owner was transfer to a charitable trust, so we've got erm a company that is handling the investment management of seven hundred million pounds worth of pension funds which is owned by a charity and the and the accounts that were given to I M R O and these accounts were given to I M R O a year later, were charity commission er type accounts, which evidently showed something like five hundred thousand pounds in that charitable fund and er and no transactions you know, so and that company that was running that was the beneficial owner of our investment company where all the errors took place. +Can I, can I just put some other bit of information in front of you as well. +You mentioned the accounts of the Maxwell Charitable Trust as having five hundred thousand of assets, I saw those accounts for the first time the other day and I found that they had five hundred and one thousand of assets of which er five hundred thousand consisted of a a purely hypothetical transfer of an asset from a Liechtenstein trust to the U K trust and that asset had no valuation done on it as far as I can make out a and no reference to any valuation appeared in the accounts, so we actually had B I M apparently owned by a charitable trust on the face of it with figures of five hundred and one thousand of assets, but in practical accounting terms and valuation terms, no evidence that those five hundred and one thousand pounds er of assets had any valuation approaching that figure. +Can now, can we actually move on a bit because, that has been very valuable what you said, but in fairness to Mr Maxwell it also has to be said doesn't it that up until he stole these assets er this process of throwing organisations, peoples monies into a spin dryer and pulling them out of different sort of sequences was something he regularly did and we've had witnesses to say how well he did manage the funds and how they grew, whether when they should sell stock and when they shouldn't sell stock and so on. +So we're actually concentrating on the actual business of that in the final analysis, despite how he behaved, large amounts of funds were stolen and you b you've kicked us off to a very valuable start about whether that would be harder to do faced with a Maxwell-type character if all of Good was implemented. +So w we're grateful for that. +We'd also for those new pieces of the puzzle you've given us today over erm Liechtenstein. +But can I take the questions back to Jimmy please and continue. +Well obviously the sad reality of the thing doesn't come home to, to our countrymen and a man comes up last week and tells me that he's been paid off by the Daily Record he's been working for them for thirty five years and he asked what how much pension will he have and says that he's getting four years pension. +Now that's a s er sad reality of this er national fraud that er Maxwell committed. +Now what I'm saying to you is that there's a big question mark as far as Goodey er report is concerned and they can talk about er the surpluses, they can talk about the trustees, but there's no majority as far as the employees are concerned and this was the question mark that we we were saying that one of the reasons why they were saying you know that the employee should be in the minority because in the end paragraph of the summing up of the Goodey report that states quite clearly that all the responsibility and all the but the employer, now you yourself has said that er as far as the schemes and we're talking of something in the region of a hundred and twenty eight thousand. +Now say for instance that because of the minimum solvency er agreement the employers have got to pay whatever their loss is, and if and I asked this question of the T U C that if there was a situation of where the employees were in the majority and forget the pension regulator, because there was a regulator anyway, so you can add whatever name that y you liked to have, but the fraud still went on, but say the employees were in the majority as far as the trustees is concerned and they were in full control and the control was taken away from the employers and there was a a federation of the hundred and twenty eight thousand with a central fund paying off heavy loss of any minimum solvencies, then surely that would be the ideal situation in order to safeguard, because when I asked Goodey himself when he submitted his report, he said they could not give any categ categorical assurance that nobody could defraud in any scheme under the proposals he's made. +As far as I'm concerned personally, I think it's very, very weak,take it back and re-draft it and allow the employees to be in the control of their own destiny, because after a national fraud and a scandal that's taken place that we could never trust any employer to carry out a scheme. +If I can please er I think our comments on that er perhaps Mr Ray is being er using the grob global flays when he refers to employees. +In the pension scheme there are typically three groups of members, the existing pensioners er those people who are still working for the company, the employees and the third group of er members who work for the companies generally referred to as deferred members. +They all have interest in the scheme so that we would believe the thing to do would be to have at least an equal number of employer appointed trustees and employee appointed trustees and the employee in this, I'm using it globally, so it does cover all three groups and we also believe it would be advisable because er inevitably the e er members er probably wouldn't know a lot about pensions themselves to have an independent trustee from an independent company who specialises in pensions and pensions laws and could a advise them on exactly what the law says and what they they're legal duties etcetera are. +Yeah, but you know that the Goodey report makes it quite clear that the employer is responsible for starting the scheme, winding up the scheme and increasing or decreasing the contributions. +Good d Good does in fact do what you said and his recommendation er for final salary schemes is er a third of the trustees should be or have the right to be er from the, the members and er er we've in our er comments to you have er looked at a global point of view and said no not are these proposals worthy in themselves, but using a different criteria that if they had been law as Ken said earlier, would they have stopped Maxwell and a situation where a third of the trustees were er were they members er would have made no difference er cos typically in our cases there were originally about four trustees er and unfortunately for us, three of them were named Maxwell. +little further. +Peter? +Well, yes, just to look at the wh the question of balance of power between the employer on the one hand and the members on the other hand and then between the different categories of members the active payers-in, the pensioners and the deferred pensioners. +How do you see the proposals in the er Good Report and what what exact proposals do you have yourselves? +Well the proposals in the Good Report as I said for final salary schemes is that a third of the trustees should be elected from he actually says from the active members er we know and comments that in great length a about the difficulties that it would be to er actually er elect er er members who are pensioners or from the deferreds Er I find that er somewhat simplistic view point in that er er the pensioners at least get communications from the administrators of the scheme every month, they get a monthly cheque, so it sh shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to be able to er be able to contact the pensioners and organise pensioner meetings but pensioner trustees to be elected. +postal balance easily enough. +In fact I think oddly enough I think the way that the Daily Mirror Trustees are now organised with postal balance and representatives classes, I think you know is almost a model now of how a set of trustees should run, you know, they but they have got a very good scheme of how they do actually elect their trustees from various groups of of members. +But do you envisage the employers should be in a position of the minority on the scheme? +Well I think the whole problem is erm is really we should some someone's got to ask the question are are final, final salary schemes going to last well into the next century. +You know because if you are going to ask an employer to enter into a contract between the between an individual employee, then really you've got to give him some advantages to do that and I think that er I don't know what the figures are or the number of final salary pension schemes that have been launched in the last couple of years, but I should think it be, be quite few and I think that there is a difficulty that if we go too far in taking power away from the er from the employer, erm then I, I can see the demise of final salary pension schemes, so I think one's got to keep a balance there of erm you know that i that you mustn't turn the employee off completely from this type of scheme. +That's very clear, thank you. +David Shaw. +Ken, if we could er look at what's actually happening out there to pensioners at the moment, I think of which we're all very concerned, but there has been a small item of good news to balance against the concerns we have for those pensioners that are still suffering from uncertainty and that is some money has started to come in as a result of legal actions and settlements out of court. +Can you tell me what the current position is as you understand it +Yeah. +and what your views are on some of these settlements that have been made? +Yes well, erm I think I mean I I did check with the various trustees last week and the current position is erm there was basically a four hundred and sixty million that er that was the original missing figure, to which now goes back over two years er recoveries have come to into over a hundred thousand now with the +Hundred million +Hundred million, sorry er I got th I I missed off the nought on the end erm +It's +erm and yeah, er but that was his speciality er so it's so of that four hundred and sixty million er a hundred million odd er just over a hundred million has been recovered, but unfortunately we still have three hundred and eighty million of liabilities erm that is due in part to the fact that with low interest rates really the liability value has increased. +So you know there the recoveries are very good, very welcomed by us, but basically we're two years now since this happened erm pensioners have been suffering extreme mental turmoil for that period, quite frankly they're, they're utterly confused, they don't understand what's happening and to ask those sort of people to rely and put their s their, their whole future security on the outcomings of out of court settlements where claims are made for two hundred million and there's a thirty two million you know they're getting totally confused and I think that that they just do not know what's happening, they, they want long-term security, we're now getting an increasing number of people who've retired since the schemes were wound up and are therefore getting a hundred per cent of their, their money from the company fund, which we're told is going to run out in two-and-a-half years time. +So we've got this group of people who are and just retired, they're sixty-five and have just retired, and they're looking forward to their pension le lo losing completely in two-and-a-half years time unless something's done about it. +I think that's a near suicidal situation. +Can I just make one point Ken, cos you were saying they're getting thirty odd million of er of a request of two hundred million. +It was actually thirty million wasn't it of a claim for fifty million, of which there was also a secondary claim which was dropped. +Yes, yes I think +So that so that actual that particular settlement was rather a good one, because it was thirty odd million plus eight wasn't it? +Oh yes, yes, no, I think I think that er and I think that you know that particularly the the Mirror Group Newspapers Trustees doing a doing an excellent job you know, but we haven't really got into the into the stock lending er arrangements, but the, the cases those I think are particularly you know important to us you see, because there is a there's another hundred and fifty nine or a hundred and fifty three million I think of, of writs out at the moment and those I think are the ones where we're going to really see whether the, the banks dig their heels in or not, you know, I think we've, we're rea very early stage, but basically I mean we've still got eighty, getting on for eighty per cent of the missing monies still missing and we're into our third, third year. +Ken, would you say though that erm one or two recent announcements connected with these judgments, I think including the er the judge in a recent M C C case which actually went I think against the administrators,b on shares but actually the judge said if the argument had been made that er these assets were held er on a trustee basis, then I might have made a different decision. +Er would you not say that this has shifted the onus of responsibility very much on to the financial institutions, the banks and others who had dealings with Mr Maxwell, and isn't the judge in effect saying in your interpretation er of that, that these institutions er really have got to show they were whiter than white in their dealings and actually went in and investigated him thoroughly? +Well I think I, I mean I do agree and I think that the that er that pressure is now getting on to these, these city institutions, but erm, but I still come back to the basic thing that, that really, you know what appears to me is happening is we've we're having literally millions of pounds taken out in, in issuing these massive massive writs you know, a hundred and seventy eight page writs are sort of being and really the money for those is coming out of the remaining money in our pension funds and really I feel that what wou what is happening is this, as far as I'm concerned, is all due to the self-regulatory body being set under the Financial Services Act, and in a way I feel that you know we're being made to pay for sorting out a mess that somebody else is making. +I mean and I think it is the lack of the regulate the er the regulatory control of city actions, I mean one of the points that we've been recently been advised on is that one of the city institutions which has already been er fined, er from its London office on a technicality is in effect the New York and London offices are deemed to be one entity and I think that er what we've been advised is that erm I forget the phrase, I wrote it down here somewhere, that what we would be advised to do is to take action against that particular city institution in New York, because that er it is deemed that the London and New York actions are in fact one and that the that er what in fact the er and I think the f yes, there it is, that, that in a way though what we've been advised is that the basis of that action would be that the organisations London and New York operations are essentially the same operation and bound by a strict know your customer rule as mandated by U S Securities Law, you know. +Now I can see the sense of that, you know, we could probably go to a New York lawyer on a no no win, no pay basis and take action agai an and argue that case, but you know is this what, what really people who've paid pensions for thirty or forty years should be dealing with, you know. +It was, can I just bring you back to that point +Yes. +that particular organisation I presume is, is the one that is known as the most profitable investment bank partnership in the world or in history and presumably the reason why you've been advised is because the advisor or the director to Robert Maxwell who was instrumental in dealing with Robert Maxwell business wherever he was in the world and I mean I've seen er faxes and cables to France where er that particular director, I believe Mr Shineberg was, I've seen faxes about Jersey business to Mr Shineberg er presumably er you're being advised to take that action because in effect it was operating as one operation with transactions routed through New York, routed through London as seemed to suit the circumstances, but not necessarily with any rational basis other than er to avoid perhaps regulation. +Er Ken, you don't have to answer that the David sitting behind you a number of er representatives of legal firms representing interest and David's making sure it's worthwhile coming today. +Chairman, I can't imagine how you could possibly contemplate that. +No, I think, I think +The interesting point is that, that I feel is, that this is, this, this, this all has a very heavy bearing on the regulatory system, because I think that really we're now being financial services is a global village and you know whether somebody picks up a phone and di I think in fact didn't you have somebody gave evidence here and said that they could not investigate one of Maxwell's transactions, because it had gone through the New York office. +Now if we're going to try and eliminate the prob the sort of problems, then really we've got to think of on an international regulatory basis, rather than just in the U K. +David? +Can I bring you erm back to the U K and what we can do in the U K, although I agree with you, we need to be looking with certain organisations at regulation on a Trans-Atlantic basis, but from a U K point of view, erm the Good Committee Report has suggested that a pensions regulator should er be brought into being. +Do you think that if we had a pensions regulator, er it might deal with some of the exploitations by Robert Maxwell er and some of the er aspects of where he breached the law and managed to take over pension funds. +I suppose in asking that question I've got to ask you to rule out er all transactions er which have sort of transacted through New York and London at the same, or, or at different times, because quite clearly the Good Committee would er all their suggestions would fail on that behalf You've just destroyed the question I was going to ask you really before I got to the question. +No I don't think so, no I don't think so. +I mean th there's one little phrase that I picked out of Good which o regarding the, the pension regulator and he actually used the word that he envisages the pension regulator and I now quote will be less pro-active than the F S A regulators. +How you can be less pro-active than I M R O I can't understand or I M R O at that particular time, but what it appears to be me is that erm that if we're not careful, we're gon th the pension regulator's just gonna be a rubber stamp factory. +You know, it's got a hundred and twenty eight thousand pension schemes, papers are gonna flood through the door and annual reports and that sort of thing and it seems to me that all of Goods th the way that this, this pension regulator is deemed to act is that he's expecting the auditors and the actuaries to whistle blow and +Well, well I think I would, I would rath it I mean i it they've got the responsibility to whistle blow now, you know, professional they've got, er you know, they're they these are professionals and they should, they should whistle blow and I mean Maxwell is a perfect example of how nobody, nobody blew the whistle and if you read through the writs, those lots of these people knew what were what was happening an and the whistle should have been blown and I see no reason why the why the pension regulator is going to get any different, different response and also I mean really these people are being in many cases given by th given information by their clients, you know, and I think it's a very difficult situation to turn round to, to somebody like Mr Maxwell and say well look I'm terribly sorry Mr Maxwell, we're going to report you to the pensions regulator, you know and I think that, that er you will just find that that I just don't feel that the pension regulator in, in that respect, I mean I, I think that I might like to if Peter suggested a pension fraud squad that, that had a open telephone line and the same sort of er powers as the Serious Fraud Office you know, so that if er anybody in a pension fund could, could ring a number and er and people absolutely descended th that, I mean they ge they say somewhere in the report that the pension regulator is going to have er powers and monies to do spot checks. +Well how on earth do you start spot checking on a hundred and twenty eight thousand companies you know, the first nine hundred and ninety five that you do may be the ones that are running perfectly. +Can I just put to you there that the pensions regulator may be able to handle aspects like audit reports and established well established documentation and procedures, but are you not really suggesting erm that in the circumstances of Maxwell where the Committee saw for example a transaction that actually had thirty different transactions and therefore unless one looked at the overview of those thirty transactions, one couldn't realise that the bank effectively was involved in a fraud. +They're a very well known bank, but nevertheless effectively involved in a fraud. +Now how is a pensions regulator going to look at those thirty transactions, therefore are you not effectively saying that the pensions regulator may work in areas where pensions regulation actually works now. +The problem is the pensions regulator won't work in the areas where regulation isn't working now. +Absolutely. +Yeah. +I think that's +I understand the point you're making about er self regulation and er I think it's brought a lot of the problems upon us and enabled the frauds to take place er and that's what de-regulation and self regulation leads to. +What would be your proposals for controlling pension funds? +Well I think if er if what had ha if er I mean before what he had before self regulation was the D T I issued erm certificates to investment management organising, you know, and I think that if er if power had remained on that basis with the D T I, I don't I'd be sitting here now. +I don't think the I don't think the D T I would have issued a investment management certificate to Robert Maxwell you know because he'd done naughty things in the past, so he just wouldn't have got the certificate. +I mean it was what, what and if you go through all the papers you can see that, that Robert Maxwell really saw that self regulation erm legislation being that he could finally get control through an investment management company of his pension funds. +Were the D T I open to erm pressure, suggestions, information from members of pension funds +I don't know, but I er, no I think I don't know I'm not you know, my experience of pension funds is it's, it's you know is only in the last two years really, I'm er. +You're an expert, expert over that bit maybe +The other thing that might contribute to er er improving matters would be if the compensation arrangements er were such that the er fund managers were involved in having to provide some of the compensa compensation if there were any to be paid, then there's obviously a very good incentive for them to police themselves more thoroughly. +Under the present compensation er proposals put forward by Good, it would all be provided by the pension funds themselves and there's no pain for the fund managers er no requirement really for them to blow the whistle. +Clifford? +No the erm none of your papers to the committee concentrated on the the compensation er proposals from the Good report, and as you know it's a scheme er which is proposed to be restric restricted to losses ari arising from fraud, theft and intentional misappropriation of assets and is just up to a limit of ninety per cent. +How do you consider that the proposals for that scheme offer adequate cover er to members of pension schemes? +No we don't, erm we in principle obviously we are in favour of er there being some form of compensation scheme and that has to be regarded as erm a step forward, er it would be better if er whatever compensation scheme is gonna be introduced was introduced now and the committee recommended and not in nineteen ninety-six or whenever it may be that the legislation is enacted. +Er but in in terms of the proposals they actually make erm we find them somewhat contradictory in that erm it says earlier on in the in the committees report that erm accrued rights must be protected erm, it doesn't say accrued rights which have to be lost through misappropriation of assets must be protected. +Whereas the proposals that they're making is only those rights which may be lost because of misappropriation of assets er would be compensated by the compensation fund. +We feel it should be extended to all assets er all, all accrued rights that are not able to be provided. +Erm we believe that er where in cases of erm misappropriated or fraud, the compensation fund should be for a hundred per cent of what has gone. +In cases where it's due to er under performance in the case of insolvency for example or other situations, we can see the argument for having a smaller proportion, but it should cover both. +Does the compensation scheme cover that? +No, not at present and we believe that it should. +Er you think you think it should be wider then, a wider scheme. +Yes absolutely wide, yes. +In order to cover any er any rights which are lost and secondly er it's inevitably the case that we are particularly disappointed er that the proposals are not retrospective. +After all if it wasn't for the Maxwell fraud, the Good Committee would never have been set up. +Erm we feel that er in that circumstance the proposals should be retrospective erm and we find the Good Committees er comment on this singularly unhelpful, in that all they say is we do not accept that retrospective implementation of the compensation scheme is appropriate full stop. +Why not? +We think that it should be. +Er if for no other reason than er if the compensation scheme was to be made retrospective to include the victims of the Maxwell fraud, it would at least erm restore some public confidence in the in the pensions industry. +Er and after all, if all the efforts that have been made that we have discussed just at, just now, er towards getting the money back are successful, well then the compensation that had been paid would be repaid. +So those are our main concerns about the compensation. +Well I'm very interested in what you say er could you, could I ask you a couple of questions. +How do you think the retrospective scheme compensation scheme would actually work and if I could give you an example erm should it apply to all schemes which have been affected in the past er perhaps after a certain date or if you were going to make that decision, where would the cut-off date be, how far back would you go and what schemes would you look at Er if it's gonna be retrospective? +only look at er er it's a scheme that really raised the whole problem that the erm er +Ken commented earlier that er er prior to the Financial Services Act coming into force which I think was some time in nineteen eighty-eight, the er D T I was responsible and there come back to the D T I if these sort of things had applied and er compensation effectively by the D T I for mal-administration or whatever so that er say we don't pretend to be pension experts, so any retrospection that I would suggest might well be appropriate as at the date of the Financial Services Act becoming into force. +After all it was suggested er by er Michael Howard in who was Corporate Affairs Minister in nineteen eighty-six in, in the House of Commons he said that the Government believe that members of a pension scheme are in effect investors in that scheme and that that they deserve the protection of the Bill will extend to investors and it never did. +So it would not seem unreasonable that you know, from the date of the Financial Services Act it might come in there. +Would be a wide ranging scheme covering all the aspects of the +We believe it should be. +Could, could erm, I ask you then how you think it should be funded? +Well the proposals that are made in the in the Committees er report for funding erm seem to us acceptable with the exception of the comment we have already made erm i acceptable in the sense that they would be borne by erm all pension funds in proportion to their the size of their assets and in relation to the size of the er compensation has to be paid. +We believe that it would be more sensible if a proportion of the compensation would be met by people like pension fund managers if for no other reason that it would encourage them to er keep their own house in order erm and you know it's not a bad er principle to operate in these areas. +Now you know,wi with lots of experts in this field and so we 're we only simply put that forward as a, a general suggestion whether it should be one-third from them and two- thirds from the pension funds, you know, I don't think is a matter of great importance to us, but we do think that the should perhaps be a bit spread, spread a bit more widely than just into the pension funds. +It's probably not to yourselves providing the compensation was paid and that's fine, but it would be a matter of great importance to those for whom that it would have to provide the money. +Sure. +And how would you envisage that er was operated. +H how would you balance that out back to the date that you're talking about? +Well +W w w we can see, you can visualise from now if we start it now, you'd say well, everyone now knows that if anything goes wrong, this is what they will have to pay, but how are you going to take it back? +Well actually, no,I I I would disagree with you at the moment. +If something goes wrong, they don't know what they are going to have to pay because if I'm a pension fund manager now, I don't know what is likely to happen in the next year which is going call on me for compensation. +All I know is that probably during the course of the year something will happen and I might have to chip in you know, a thousand pounds or a million pounds or whatever, but I don't know how much it's going to be. +In this case, at least it is possible to calculate the total er total amount that is missing and that could be divided up between your pension funds and it would of course be a a one-off hit on those funds. +Tha that would mean that all pensioners who are drawing the pension from pension funds would be penalised back to the date that you're talking about. +No, it's the employers ultimately who will be penalised because the employers are required to make up any shortfall in the assets of the funds not the pensioners. +So the pen employers pay +Ultimately yes. +And that but al as we said, a proportion of it we believe should be met not from the pension funds, but from the er from, from managers. +But if you've got er four hundred and eighty million pounds missing and you're saying that pension fund managers should er pay a third of it and this is a pay as you go scheme rather than a funded scheme of compensation, how many pension fund managers do you think would be able to cough up their third? +I don't have at the tip of my fingers the total level of funds managed, but +Once again there is n not necessarily er anybody to write out a cheque for one million pounds o or whatever. +Most of these liabilities er inevitably aren't necessarily for pensions payments they're back to the active members, some of whom won't make any actual claim on this possibly for thirty years time, so there could well be a er a a scheme which is arrived at which is a pay as you go, which isn't any great liability o on, on any one pension scheme at any particular moment in time. +I thought you were trying to actually pin responsibility not to organisations, but to people that here was Mrs Thatchers philosophy really working and market was gonna discipline pay out their own pockets. +Now if I'm the fund manager and you've gotta deferred member, nobody's gonna waste thirty years for me to pay up their pension, I won't be here probably in thirty years time er so they want the money up front. +They don't want me paying d you know like their pension deferred, so if you're serious about the fu pension fund managers paying, we're talking y you know earlier you said four hundred and eighty million whatever it is lost, they're paying a third, pension fund managers have got to come up with that sort of sum. +Now I just don't think that's rea realistic, that's different from saying you may have a bail system, cos that's what I thought you were suggesting and for people to b come into the ring as pension fund managers, they would have to perhaps to put up securities of a million pounds each to o operate in this area and that if they behave badly, if funds went missing, if it was proved they were negligent, they would lose their million pounds bail, just as people lose bail when they don't turn up to court. +Now that seems to me, that might induce er slightly might do, but I could I I think that,wha I what I thought you were saying was different from what you ended up saying and I'm not sure which +I think the thing that sort of has really bugged me righ right from the start of this thing was that when this when the Financial Services Act was put before Parliament, everybody was told the Gower Report and everything said pensions are the same as assets, all your assets and must be protected as such. +Th th the House was told that and that was what the situation. +It then went into the City to set up their own self-regulatory and we in fact went to see Mr Redwood and he was quite he was very quite blunt about it, he said well, they considered it when they were sid considering the investors compensation scheme, but the sum involved in pensions are so great, that they could not afford to underwrite a pension er a compensation fund for pensions, so therefore there's a pension fund for for private investment, but not a pension fund er compensation fund for, for occupation. +Now how how you work it on your scheme or whatever scheme comes up, it just seems to me that if you are going to have self-regulatory body, there's got to be responsibility for it and how you impose that responsibility, could I'm sure be in all sorts of different ways. +We've got to find, we're taking up all very well, er Jane? +Er it's really is to follow on from this debate that we're having about what should happen if a shortfall occurs, erm and we've heard, I've been listening carefully to your views about er the way in which you agree with the Good Committee that a shortfall is an employers debt, the employers responsibility to meet that shortfall and we've been talking about that shortfall should be met, but the Good Committee also concluded that er pensioners should not be regarded as preferential creditors erm and you also agreed with that. +Could you explain for the record what your reasons were for arriving at that conclusion? +Could you take that +I think that the I think the question of that really, I'm trying to, I can't quite frankly, I think that's Mike Kirkham in this who particularly investigated that one, but I think that basically what we were really saying was on what I was saying earlier on is that if you make it too difficult for the employers, you're going to take away the incentive to run a final salary scheme, you know that you know I think basically final salary pension schemes are good for the employee, you know, I think that was what our fundamental thinking of on that was. +Do you think this er really goes back to the fundamental issue which the Good Committee didn't really address which was the issue of ownership of the pension funds and assets and that whilst pensioners and to an extent employers these days regard the pension fund as deferred pay and pensions payments as deferred pay, the ownership of those funds is still left erm neither still er an argument about wh wh who owns the funds and er a lot of this follows on from that. +Yes, well I think that's why you that's why I keep on trying to come back to the regulatory system, because what you really in fundamental form a pension is a contract between an employer and an individual, you know you pay me so much money and when you get to a certain age I will pay you. +That's the fundamental as far as I see it of a pension fund. +The problem I think comes when you go when you become insolvent, you know, and I think that's and so therefore unless we're going to come up with some system where we do insure our pensions as we do our home, then you, you, you're still back to the basic contract between a company and an individual. +I think that's the the real sort of problem of trying to say the assets belong to the for the pensioner, you know I think there, there are great difficulties unless you're gonna rule out final salary pension schemes. +Great. +Ken I calculated you've actually given us nine major points in your submission. +Now are there from our questions, issues which we've missed that you just want to touch on before we conclude? +Well I think er well we've gotta er I think we've gotta few points, there's, there's one on stock lending which we think needs to be looked at. +Do you wanna make a couple of comments +Yes. +You make some comments +Er Good er concludes that er stock lending is er no different from other aspects of er the market in general er as I understand it, stock lending as far as pension funds concerned, usually works with pension fund has this collection of stocks and shares. +Er financial institution is sure to meet its position, it comes to the pension fund says can you loan me th this stock in the return of which I will er pay you the equivalent sum of money plus some interest. +That sounds all very well and good, the way as my reading of the at least one of the writs is concerned is that er Maxwell operated this in entirely the reverse. +He er wasn't the lender, he was the borrower, he went to the bank, says can I borrow this collection of treasury bonds, which he has to put pension fund assets to stock, so he's immediately er going against his duty as a trustee cos it's costing the pension fund money this er er excess of five to ten per cent. +Secondly he owes bonds were immediately sold to another part of the same part of the organisation again at a discount, so that cost the pension funds even more money, and to the final injury the payment of that cash for the er treasury bonds went to accounts which were not the property of the pension funds at all. +Hence we are four hundred and eighty million and whatever is out of pocket. +Er we would say that as, that as far as pension funds are concerned, stock lending in that way should be prohibited and the puerilely ca carrying on that er is that er it should be any account for a pension fund should carry the names of pension funds and any transactions involved with pension fund money whether it should be a duty of financial institutions to make sure that any account they were paying money into was a pension fund account. +if I may say so is a key point isn't it that a lot of the transactions you've discussed were off-market transactions, they were unusual transactions and the financial institutions that were carrying out those transactions whether they were acting as banker or acting as broker, they would have had knowledge that those transactions were not normal market transactions. +So if the law was clear that in those circumstances they should have been on notice and should have therefore watched where the money was going, there wouldn't have been a problem and are we not saying that legitimate stock lending, which I think is what Good is abou is suggesting, if carried on properly on market, would be all right, but if it immediately goes off market into the back doors and back rooms and people can't see what's going on and the financial institutions take part in that, then they are doing something that un undoubtedly is probably going to cause loss to pension funds and shouldn't there be a clear law which makes them liable in those circumstances. +you were saying it was wrong anyway weren't you? +Oh, I'd say it is w wrong anyway in that er I say it's the it's early er on it in the report Good defines what he determines a trustees duty and as I said to a sort of effectively ought enter into a tr transaction which immediately cost effecting kind of money rather than making money for the pension fund then it is against that duty in the first place, but it's to it should however be ma made explicit that it is against that duty saying stock lending may be okay for a pension fund, but not stock lending where the er pension fund is acting as the borrower rather than the lender. +Right, Ken any other points? +Er can I I started to comment on about the er, er bank accounts which are you know er my the reaction that I saw was all round the table and I think we would go further that er any company handling pension funds should carry pensions somewhere in their names and all on all their paperwork etcetera so that everybody's totally clear that they are dealing with pension funds and er to agree with a comment that you made in one of your earlier reports that er designation of ownership of shares of pension funds should be clearly er marked on those shares er that also would of er at least alerted these financial institutions, as once again that they were handling stocks belonging to pension fund and they still have ignored it in the case that er they did, but er er they would ha not had the excuse that er apparently some of them have made that er they were not aware that these were pension funds assets. +I think still claiming well it's not that I didn't know, but anyway er Ken +Er well we did, we were gonna raise a point on that, the clash of the regulatory rules and the duty of under Trust Law, you know, and I, I think there, there was a comment tha that I picked up with Professor Gower you know in his report which I think, where he said the Government obviously have greater confidence than I in reliance on pristine Trust Law in relation to modern commercial developments such as unit trusts and occupational pension schemes, which its founding fathers never contemplated. +Now there was nothing in Good really that I think addressed this mismatch between those two types of law. +Now I think that, that Good did say oh well, there is a Law Commission Report expected, but I think that you know that Good should address somewhere tha that problem of Trust Law and regulationship and then I did in fact on going through the report and er you know and also your own reports erm there's the one about designation of assets you know, which I think was a very good recommendation of yours. +I think the actuarial responsibilities and the wider role of actuaries was important. +I think the inde independent corroboration for actuaries was another important factor, custody confirmation by the auditors, veto of transfer of assets, independent auditors for pension funds, independent custodian arrangements, in-house investment management, you made some comments, co-ordination or the various regulators, co-ordination of the professional advisors, establishment of a pension tribunal, you know, now as far as I was concerned or on my sort of looking through it, those were all recommendations that, that you've made over your two years and I couldn't really find any response to those in Good and I think that's a you know we, we personally found that disappointing. +Also I mean, we take your point and we've made it before Ken that there's a real danger of asking for a report from someone like Professor Gower and then cherry picking it, instead of actually taking the whole, because it does actually add together in some sort of coherence erm and had Professor Gower's report been accepted in its entirety, we may not have been had the pleasure of having you back again today, but thank you very much er all three of you for coming. +Thank you very much. +I would suggest is the timescale between these things happening and it getting to the regulator and being digested. +In the present +didn't understand for two years I mean told the regulator +Yes, yes er whereas if there were independent trustees responsible to the regulator and they were properly trained, they would I suggest be able to smell out very quickly an malpractice and would have a group straight to the regulator, if only to call a stop for someone to have a look at it. +nothing recommended to Goodey in that particular cause is of any good. +I don't think so. +Erm er Imperial? +I M P A Cs belief is that er if you get the trustee balance right, that's the first place where the decision ought to be made, but there should be a fall back position which Good has given, which they they trustees could go to the regulator in the case of er not being able to solve things, but our feeling very much on surplus is that the money is there first for to pay pensions and until pensions are paid up to Inland Revenue levels whatever they are, then no money should go back to the company. +The question of taking pension holidays in between out of surplus is a sort of mid midway position, but er very definitely we feel strongly that money should not go back to the company. +We have suffered from the same thing as the other two er Abalance have said today of money being used from our surplus to provide for redundancy and erm it's been exacerbated by money being available from the people who were made, made redundant going to the company and swelling their balance sheets while all the cost side of it comes out of the pension fund and that has caused a lot of ill-feeling particularly from the older pensioners who have seen years of inflation, when their pensions were not made up to the same extent. +In the old days when there was a possibility of of erm ad hoc payments made er that sort of thing was taken care of, since the takeover of the company that hasn't happened to the same extent, so there's a very strong feeling with the older pay er pensioners that they paid money into a pension scheme which now shows a surplus, but other people are benefiting from it. +We need we've got lots more questions to ask you. +Peter? +Erm Mrs Appleby you mentioned briefly earlier the role of the regulator. +How do you see the regulator doing his job with a hundred and twenty-eight thousand schemes to, to monitor? +Great difficulty I would imagine. +erm er well we welcome the erm er the proposal that there should be a regulator. +Somebody er to whom the erm er matters could be referred to er whom er could remove trustees er who are er not acting in er the best interests er of the fund er to whom er I understand that the erm beneficiaries could er appeal if they felt that their fund was being erm used i in the wrong way, which is something that we haven't got at the moment. +Erm I mean just going very, very briefly back to the question that you asked erm about this how would you stop what's happen happening is by having, we would have thought a pensioner trustee, because even the question has been asked how did it get through the union trustees, and the answer that most of them are employed and they are looking over their shoulder because jobs are going, redundancies are being made, you've got a pensioner employee er a pensioner trustee on there, and they're not looking over their shoulder for their job, they are going to do the job of a trustee and watch the fund and they would then be able to go to the regulator if they saw something that was amiss, but if somebody is employed by the firm might be very worried about doing because they're more bothered about keeping their job. +Though, the case you're putting that the, the pensioner trustee er ship is more powerful than you originally put, cos up to now you've been put it in grounds that it's the trust should be repr representative of it +Yes +Now you're saying er rather well, that in fact that person or persons could be more independent +Yes. +because they're actually not worried about being sacked +Yes. +either erm because redundancies are coming or as Imperial Trustees found, they were just got ridden of as a way of moving them off the trust. +Yeah, very good. +large carrots being dangled in front of them. +I mean we ought to say in our case approved our the proposals of the company, they raise no objections in which only the who raised objections, the employees didn't and in the High Court case we've just said, how can an employee be independent, when he depends upon his employer for his future work. +So really what you're saying is that if we're looking at trip wires to stop things happening, there's a power a really powerful case for a pensioner trustee, but you're looking for whistle blowers. +Yes. +There's also a powerful case for having pensioner trustees that they will so there's far less chance of erm people twisting their arm, although they could have the carrot dangled in front of them. +that's +But that's the problem we all face isn't it. +And we're also saying that if you have a new pensions act, the work of the regulator will be much easier. +Why? +You won't keep have to be going off to court to find out what is the law at that moment of time. +Touche. +Could I, could I turn to one of the major contributors of erm of pension fund surpluses er and that is the plight of the deferred pensioner. +The person who leaves the company's employment er could I ask you, each of you in turn briefly for some comments about how you feel deferred pension rights can best be preserved, if they can be preserved at all er adequately. +I suppose in one way as a pensioner I shall say what happens about you know I'm not worried about if you're a pensioner because every time one someone becomes a deferred pensioner, our surplus goes up +Yes. +because the liability is extinguished. +Yes. +I cannot see why the actuary having a liability for an employee, if that employee becomes a deferred pensioner that the actuary having a liability for the fund +But don't +Yes they are +Can I, you the example you did before to other people was that if you worked you know your normal scheme forty years and if you worked for ten of those forty years you become deferred. +Do you have a quarter of the right you would expect if you done the forty years. +Is that the sort of way one should underwrite the position as a deferred pensioner +Yes Yes +What I think my colleague is saying is that when the actuary is assessing the commitments of the funds, he is looking at the anticipated increased earnings until the person retires and I think when the calculation is made for somebody who is er a deferred pensioner of leaving er a pension fund to take his money elsewhere a similar calculation or the same calculation should be used, the one that the actuary last used in, in looking forward and saying what the commitments are. +That way the fi the surpluses left behind would be less, but the person transferring and we're going to see more and more of this today er takes a fair amount of money with him. +But of course if salaries go up evenly throughout a forty year lifespan and the Chairman is given a forty year lifespan which is quite or pension lifespan which is quite a suitable one, if salaries go up and someone leaves their company every ten years, then the first three departures are obviously going to be at much lower salary levels and it's not going to be satisfactory the first three departures are just index linked to inflation, there is the problem of how does one index link them towards the final salary. +Otherwise that person having worked for four different employers during the forty years will not retire on two-thirds of final salary, but will retire on two-thirds er only perhaps the last employer for the last ten years. +It isn't a question Chairman but it's easy to ask as it seems,we you said a ten year, but what about a thirty service of deferred pension, that could be an entirely different situation, because that is inflation put under the Post Office and B T ones it's inflation proofed every year, so for the ten years, if he's if he's got another ten years before he draws his pension at sixty, he would have that er deferred pension inflation proofed every year. +So a thirty year old service might be entirely different than a person with ten years service deferring his pension. +Yes, the reason why we picked a forty year lifespan of work or working life er with four tens was because Professor Good himself told us that er on their research the common employment pattern today is in fact four employers over the working life and of course that is very different from the experience of many pensioners who are drawing today from their pension funds, because many of them were long-term, long-service employees throughout their lives with one employer. +But you were saying weren't you you described this world which lots of us now have lost and somebody leaving school starting a job and retiring from that job, so the que the question David's asked you is more important isn't it because deferred pensions are probably gonna become more, not less common. +They are becoming a lot more common, yes when you look in the report and accounts there are far, far more of these deferred pensioners there than er than ever used to exist and it's something which I must admit we haven't given a lot of thought to yet, but it's something because it's growing that we will have to address erm in our federation, we will have to address that problem. +And the danger presumably is that the surpluses we were having our discussion and debate about earlier on, those surpluses that and I do understand why you feel the pensioners should benefit from their surplus, but it the reality is that the employers and possibly the pensioners are currently arguing amongst themselves for the benefit of those surpluses, but in fact one of the significant contributors is often the deferred pensioners +Yes. +and the deferred pensioners are not actually getting in on the debate, they're not often represented on the trustees in fact. +No, they're n they're not represented, erm but I think we would b you know, I mean I think they, they should get be considered certainly erm dependent upon the length of service which they have put in it's certainly something for the future. +I was gonna make a point about the one you raised the practicalities of the situation. +I don't know enough actuarial work to be able to and what settlements they should receive, but our own experience is that it's hard enough to round up pensioners to form an association and we embody deferred pensioners and they're even harder. +We just don't seem to be able to track them down or attract them in quite the same way, so there is a massive practical problem if you want them to have a voice in how things are done, there's no doubt about that. +We have that same problem, but er it can be solved quite easily, the employer knows the addresses of pensioners, there's nothing to stop pensioner association being formed. +We are unable to get addresses of our so it's word of mouth how we, how we er include, but why should not the employer send to all pensioners and deferred pensioners notices about the associations. +Could I ask you very quickly on that note, do you think the answer is to try and set up a voting mechanism amongst the deferred pensioners, or is the answer that one should actually appoint a professional independent trustee, specifically with the duties of looking after the deferred pensioners in the debates that you have identified often take place? +We were told that that is impossible to take a vote because with big organisations like B T and the Post Office one example was to sell off a Girobank there are eight thousand people, but they were just told you can either defer your pension, leave it with the Post Office Pension Fund, transfer it to the Leicester and Alliance who bought Girobank, or take your money out and take up a personal pension scheme. +They were given no votes or erm opportunities and of course the same thing will happen if and when the Parcelforce is sold off from the Post Office er there's twenty thousand people there. +I doubt very much whether they'll be given any opportunity to voice what happens to them when they're transferred or what happens to the fund. +They'll be given the same three options I should imagine. +So you would feel probably the best mechanism would be the appointment of somebody who is given that responsibility and solely that responsibility of reporting and looking after the interest of the deferred pensioners. +Yes. +You would agree with that? +Yes I would agree, would favour that because I think it would force another issue, if, if the independent rule too often against the deferred pensioners I suspect they'd organise themselves. +You see in British Steel we we have seventy thousand deferred pensioners and er it is a group of people that I feel extremely sorry for, because er in nineteen eighty-six British Steel introduced into their pension scheme while it was still in the public sector, retirement at sixty where with a pension credit spaced on length of service, so if you had thirty-five years service in, you could retire at sixty as if you were sixty-five and there was nothing done at all for deferred pensioners and in certainly our submission to British Steel for seeking improvements, we we asked that they er they look at deferred pensioner with a view to paying their pensions at sixty, recognising that it was a very high-class plane that might have to be er achieved in stages. +We also recognise that there is a tremendous problem for deferred pensioners in achieving reasonable transfer values er er er it's a massive problem for them, even where they could find perhaps something to do with that money and a scheme that would do them better, not always, because there, there are people that give bad advice, but there are some that go into it very thoroughly and when it comes down to the bit the transfer value they receive makes it im practically impossible for them to do it. +But we've got +So we would like er to support what you're saying. +We've got six more minutes, David? +Er shall I combine my two found questions which the Committee would like to put to you please and, and that is there are two points that really do come out of Maxwell very much, but I think you've had some experience. +One is bulk transfers and the second is safeguarding of assets. +Er in the context of bulk transfers would you like to comment on the Good Committees conclusions on the bulk transfers of members between schemes and how they operate, and do you think that er there is widespread abuse or do you think er on balance your experience has been that where bulk transfers have taken place, they have taken place responsibly, but I would in that context ask you to comment whether there has been an unreasonable time delay where you have experienced bank bulk transfers between the transfer actually taking place in terms of employees being transferred from an undertaking to another undertaking and the actual transfer of their pension funds. +What happened in Maxwell's case was that enormous delays took place between the employees being transferred and the actual transfer of their pension. +Er and could you also comment perhaps on the safeguarding of assets and any er points you would like to make in relation to the present five per cent limit on self investment. +The er issue of stock lending if you heard the Maxwell pensions earlier on comment on stock lending, whether you think pension funds should do that er in the case of Maxwell as you're probably aware a lot of the stock lending was off market rather than on the market and perhaps you could also comment on the use of independent custodians in terms of the custody of investment. +Er I'm sorry to throw all those at you very quickly, but they are er obviously five minutes left and +B T th the question about bulk transfers. +Sorry no not, British Steel, apologies. +Well, I, I'd say one thing by illustration from our own situation er we were transferring bulk and I felt that was singularly unfair because the members were given a choice. +The existing members were told you can either join the new scheme with its improved benefits, reduced contributions, with certain rules that were operating in favour of the employer that were against them, but it was a balancing act, or if you don't want that you can stay with the old scheme and continue with exactly the same terms. +The third choice was the obvious one you can take your money and get out. +Er now we, the pensioners, had no choice, we were picked up and put into the new scheme having paid our contributions appropriately to the old scheme rules which were the higher contributions, but only to pick up the new scheme rules that were against our interest. +Now I can see no good reason for that being allowable, I'm not quite sure how you stop it, but I think it it's, it's a basic problem with bulk transfer, the individuals do not have a say. +Very good. +B T? +Well I've already said about the bulk transfer Giro, I quite honestly don't know whether any other option can be given to people, they've given the option to defer their pension with the Post or their present scheme, transferred it new company scheme or take out er the money and take out a personal pension fund er I suppose there might be a possibility of offering people after a certain number past a certain number of years the opportunity to remain within the fund they're in but er the contribution and who, who makes a contribution may be a problem, but that's the only other option I can see. +We don't believe that pensioners ought to be forcibly transferred, they should be given the choice. +And if that was in the Statute, there would could stop the +Indeed, yes. +Can we then go back to the other one on safeguarding. +Very difficult indeed er hearing the Maxwell people talking earlier I think er again and made that point very clear. +I think we can point to some of the things that can happen that worry us. +Er if you stand back from our situation and see it that er the contribution rate for employees was reduced from sixty five per cent for er a company i it became a balance of cost and that works out now at five per cent, so the total inputs of the scheme is ten per cent of earnings and that was down from eighteen per cent . +Er without being an actuary I say to myself that's a pretty magical thing you've done and then it causes you to start looking at the monetary background of all of that an and again I I'm, I'm speaking here largely on what actuarial advice we are beginning to receive. +I think the conclusion coming out of that is that as a result of what I've described and a few other things as well, not least the fact that the company has now capped its contribution rate to no more than ten per cent . +When it gets to ten, the members stay at five when the company gets to ten, the damage is picked up by either reducing members benefits or restricted index linking. +Now with a hundred and eighty thousand of pensioners and forty thousand scheme members and all of the trustees currently made up of employees and scheme members, it's pretty obvious where any correction of loss of funding is gonna come from isn't it. +There can only be one target, it's the pensioners. +So er when schemes by the good service of actuaries can be re-written in such extreme terms I begin to worry about it and I think it needs an input for more than one direction on the actuarial fund in our case the trustees saw fit not to use actuaries to get away +But on actual safeguarding of assets, erm do you for instance with separate custodians, do you have any views about the custody of your schemes assets? +Not, no, I, I've really not given thought to that subject. +B T, anything? +Well I was impressed by the erm the Maxwell erm peoples comments that the funds should be clearly marked pension fund accounts and and that er there would be regulations that this money couldn't be transferred without some the regulator again or somebody making er agreeing to the transaction, but I erm fully understand that would be erm very time-consuming, but er that's the only way I can see that, that the fund should be clearly marked that they're pension fund and shouldn't be transferred without some some authority agreeing to it. +We have separate custodians, the Bank of Scotland are doing this and er I think er having a separate organisation outside is er an important first step, but you've then got to tie up who gives them instructions and that obviously needs careful thought, needs to be done through the trustees. +just one question that I wasn't able to put on the Committee's behalf, but I think it is something that we would be very grateful for a short written comment and that is the information that your members, that the members of the pension funds actually er rather than your annual members as well in that context actually receive annually and whether you feel that is satisfactory. +We can send you that. +Yes, I think also how you feel it could be improved would be very relevant and how you would feel in the context of a pensioners meeting, an annual meeting like shareholders have in companies and how you if you have any views on how such a meeting might be managed in relation to the deferred pensioners interests, the existing pensioners interests, the employees interest and obviously the company's interest being adequately reflected at such a meeting but I think we would welcome that aspect. +And also efforts you've made to organise yourself as groups and whether you've been encouraged or not encouraged by the owners of the scheme. +Thank you. +That would be very helpful. +Can I thank you for coming today,th th the media often has lots of comments from the chattering classes, saying unhealthy, British democracies, cos they only concentrate on this place. +I, I'm not gonna comment whether I think that's right or not, but anyone viewing your contribution today would know that outside there in the big institutions of our society democracy is very healthy. +Thank you very much for coming. +Thank you. +Thank you. +We thank you. + +Clearly one of the issues we've got though, is t we're looking at something like million pound overspend in C I S for the calendar year ninety three which we've gotta try and pull back, at least some of that. +We worked out yesterday that probably the overspend in er client services could be between a hundred and eighty two thousand and half a million, not four hundred depending on which scenario you take. +Erm the worst scenario takes into account things like erm whacking in another two people in claims, another four in E W S erm +i if you go along with the the current situation on volume increases erm and er the simple choice on those is you either pay pay to cover the service levels or you let the service level deteriorate. +Mm. +Erm but I mean that's forecast for erm more or less now if the volumes stay as they are, so that's an issue. +Erm we've also got an issue with erm the post cock-up and that's a technical term you're laughing at are you? +Erm +cock-up +two people to go to John , erm because erm, apart from anything else it was agreed John 's arm was twisted yesterday to take two people and g and the work but the issue is is that the K doesn't, the issue is is that there is no budget anywhere for it either here or down in John's area. +And the reason being is that somebody thought that John was taking the work without having to take people, which he can't do. +So John's now taking it on the basis that he takes budget with it so +So they are going? +Yes they will be going. +Ah I mean right +Mary'll take them all now +Yeah, unfortunately erm +Does that mean Richard as well from upstairs or Russell, whatever his name is? +Russell +Russell +Ah I don't know if Russell's going, I mean that's something for them to sort out upstairs. +Yeah th they were the two people, it's our two part-timers plus Russell. +Oh well that's what it is then, yeah. +Yeah okay. +But you'll need to sort that out with Mary when she's back, she's not back till after Easter anyway. +So when's that happening? +Well I'll leave that problem for Mary to sort out. +But it, we don't save any money from doing that now anyway. +In fact we lose money either way. +Erm so that's,tha that that's now been done. +Erm now potentially, if you totted up, and there's also the data integrity the other reports, which is the sixty K overspend we talked about, now the question is do we spend that, do we spend that this year, what do we do? +Now +Sorry what reports are they? +Well Phil knows what they are. +Well we've we're gonna spend it now anyway. +No I mean I've started giving reports out to the sections already +Yeah I, I know but +Is that units? +Units reports? +Yeah +Yeah. +on the data correction exercise. +Yeah. +Oh +But the, the question is until you've fixed them they'll stay in in exclusion right? +Yeah. +Right, so you fix them just as quickly as you can fix them, but if that takes nine months it takes nine months, that's one of the views you can take on it. +Yeah. +Erm the issue is is that potentially you could be goi we could've been going for four point three extra people and we probably won't do that. +But the ne the ne the other issue is that erm on the Jason front, the overspend on the salary, we might well be able to adjust that down in terms of the overall salary review absorb it within that in July. +Five grand across the whole we'll, we'll lose it somewhere. +Oh what, the k the difference between him being an A and, and the budget being a C? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Okay? +Erm on the other side there are some definite overspends which we've got to do some more work on. +Erm there's the P W P five year thing which, which we've got to erm cover for which we've covered as two F T E for the six months and then we'll need to review that after that. +Erm we've got the same sort of issue with excess relief. +And then there's the, the data integrity on units which is the fourteen we've already made some er nominal provision for which is +Mhm +quote ten quotes people moving across. +Erm, in addition to that there's the erm there's the U A three stuff in the first half of this year which is fourteen people for four months, eight people for two months effectively. +Erm then there's billing and collection pensions conversion, regionalization all coming in late. +Erm now the impact of those is twofold, one is that we've got the overspend on the data integrity and the U A three, cos it wasn't in the budget at all. +And secondly the fact that it wasn't in the budget erm and the fact that they're late means that we're not also realizing the productivity in other areas that we had anticipated so we're gonna be some six months late coming in. +Now the potential overspend on the definite ones, the ones I just read out, is two hundred and eighteen thousand. +But we reckon that in actual fact if you erm don't do the we just dis discount the billing and collection and the pensions conversions and so on that we will actually get some benefits from the, the, the things that we've already put in place this year, we reckon we can reduce that overspend on that side of it down to about a hundred and eighty two thousand erm because it's, it's nominal paper er transactions in a way. +Erm so really the issue is we haven't made any decisions yet, these are the things we've gotta try and make decisions on, but we will need to be starting to think them before we get to June. +One of the major problems we've got is that erm the w I did some figures yesterday that, that tended to suggest that in fact our productivity performance overall is about two point seven at the moment even without having had in and without having units in and so on, so we have increased our productivity, marginally, despite the fact we've got temps in and we've got those new business people. +Erm +Wasn't it in the budget the two point seven for the first two months? +Yeah but it's now gone up to two point +And increases +eight. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Erm but the reality is that erm we would therefore need our budget to, in fact for the first half of this year, to have, well for the whole year, to have reflected the late delivery of the systems which would've, if we'd had that in the budget and we'd been projecting the whole budget at say two point six, our budget figure would've been somewhere in the region of another eighty to ninety thousand higher than it currently is for this first quarter. +Erm so in actual fact we'd've been there or thereabouts had we not made the budget assumptions that we did. +Now one of the major issues that we're concerned about of course is the overtime erm which is, if you review the last three months of the overtime which we did the other day, erm we obviously, we spent the annual budget erm allowance. +One of the things that we need to, to work out, and Mark 's gonna do some work on that and, and Maureen pro primarily to identify that erm we're spending about thirty five, thirty six K a month over at the moment. +Erm now there's two questions really, one is is that partly to offset the erm lack of productivity that we had anticipated in the budget. +So in other words is our F T E consistent with where we actually are rather than where we thought we'd be erm or have we got erm you know er the Parkinson's law, been operating with the, the overtime, people are used to doing it and therefore they keep doing it and so on. +One of the other impacts we need to work out in fact is the er effect of the overtime as being worked in quotes, by all the quotes people not just the temps, because that's gonna be a significant chunk. +If those, all of those contract temps are regarded as full time people it looks like full time people are working overtime, which is why I asked you the question yesterday erm what's the overtime bill for quotes alone. +Cos we've got a hundred percent hundred percent increase in volume +Yeah +in quotes. +And th th the contract people, if they are working overtime, are, are paid the, the premium rates +Oh right yeah +Yeah. +So it's, it's costing us +Yes it is costing us, yeah. +time and a half. +But the point is is that for everybody else there was, there is some assumption that we'd be working off of post driven erm response, okay? +So if you got more post in, or your productivity in the servicing sections is down, from two point seven it's down actually at two point six is what we're achieving, we're marginally out. +But the, every hour of overtime worked in quotes is in fact an hour actually on our budget, it isn't just a pr proportion of it on our budget which is what you've got everywhere else. +So +No it's not entirely true cos we did have a budget for overtime +Yeah but i if you're gonna go over by a hundred percent and you've got people there working overtime +Yeah. +significantly every hour that they do on that is gonna be signific is, is not budgeted for cos you've got fourteen people there who weren't budgeted for at all. +Yeah. +So when you get ten of them working overtime, and that, those ten people weren't budgeted to do any overtime. +Yeah. +So we need to identify to what extent the o the quotes problem erm is cau is, is skewing the figures primarily to be able to get a forecast view of, okay what's the overtime likely to do over the year? +I mean as long as it, as long as the graph is reshaped rather than the massive overspend cos at this rate, we're gonna be spending out er three hundred thousand pounds over just on overtime er which we obviously can't afford to do. +Erm but that's if you just progr project forward where we are cos we used up in, in three months what we should have done for the whole year so you've only gotta do that, so we've done a hundred thousand pounds this first quarter and if you've four more, three more quarters there's another three hundred thousand pounds over budget. +The point is, one of my points is that two things are, are likely to happen. +One is that the, the impact of quotes and the other improvements coming through in the second half of the year will reduce some of that impact anyway and also that that hundred thousand pounds overspend is sig is over-skewed because the proportion of quotes work in there is actually making a, making a difference too. +But we need to know by how much. +So what we're trying to do is get a picture of, okay, what's our, our best guess scenario, what the whole year's gonna look like. +We should have that in a few minutes on the, the quotes side, Mark's gonna bring them in to me. +Yeah okay, fine. +Erm so I think we've gotta look at that right across the board though, we've gotta know that in actual fact we're covering it temporarily, erm or aren't we covering it temporarily. +I think all the work that we did indicates that there the productivity is one issue, that unless you're doing the two point eight or whatever's in the budget, you know, we're not gonna get near it. +But the other thing is the work that we did on, all the hours that er aren't available on the team +Yeah. +and that isn't gonna go away unless we +No it isn't, it isn't gonna away but when you go back to these figures we've actually been working, if you wo if you accept that there's been, there's no change in our situation apart from auto-offs and units +Mm +primarily +As from now? +As from now. +Well th since +Right yeah +since December +Yeah. +we should be able to maintain the performance that we've done prior to December cos everything else should be equal. +Right? +With +Yeah +or without the T As and, and all, with all the other bits and pieces. +So what we need to be able to identify is that,al although we will gain the worst scenario ought to be that whatever we lose in terms of auto-off reports and units reports to some extent we should be gaining by the improved productivity overall. +So let's just say it breaks even. +So our performance, in terms of F T Es per thousand pound, per thousand item, should be running more or less along at the November December level. +Right? +Now what we've got here, if you look at the F T for ten thousand in force policies, we've got a significant jump in January and February at a time when our budget posting was down below budget. +Now that's fair enough because we've actually bunged more in in terms of testing, we're covered in testing, and we've got temps who are less productive, so to an extent we, we, we, we ou our budget did expect that bump. +What we should expect though is that it comes back down to around the three point five mark for the year. +Now if that is true then we ought to be able to re- forecast a year getting a reasonable assessment, okay, on what's that going to do. +So what I'm saying is that although there will be an overspend, it shouldn't be massive cos the overspend would effectively be the hump right at the beginning of the year. +I don't think it's as simple as that because at the time that we were doing the budget, we were doing it really in September, and most of those other cate categories of work, apart from like auto-offs reports and things, weren't having an impact. +And all, all the other things we've listed out that have taken up time of the team weren't being done in September. +We were doing other things last year. +We were doing other things. +Loads of other things. +I don't think I don't think simply by looking at auto- offs reports or E D S R work is going to solve our problems in time do you? +But I don't I don't s +No +I haven't seen anything that, that actually says, suggests to me that you've got another, any other special cause between now and last autumn. +Othe the only other thing that could be in there would be an increase in post, fundamentally. +Which we haven't had. +Which we haven't had. +No. +Well we might be having in, in March if eastern region's anything to go by, cos it's had a twenty four percent increase, then it might be a, a double blip, a blip under and a blip over, which would therefore f it would therefore follow that your erm your workload level is gonna be consistent. +What we don't know is whether March is a start of a new trend upwards above budget, that's a different scenario cos then you can say okay, just like we talked about with claims and E W S. +But if you take the, the servicing sections overall, what we should be able to say is that look okay we're gonna have a delayed kick in of improved productiv because it, productivity cos of new systems that are helping us, whether it moves us from two point six to two point seven to two point eight is arguable, and we won't know that for sure until we get there, but we shouldn't have is deterioration. +I don't e I don't see any reason why we should have deterioration. +Cos the work that the T As are doing now are just different projects to the one they were doing before. +I mean you've had Sue, Sue for example tied up on and all those sort of issues, Bob 's been dealing with pr pension conversions and stuff like that for, for months on end, so we've been dealing with other projects, all that's happened is the work has been redirected onto a different type of project. +Now we've lost a lot of resource erm in the clerical area, in this first quarter,t t to release people to go and do testing work we've taken on temps. +Now the temps an and the two new business people for example have definitely had an impact on our ability to be as productive as you normally expect to be. +That's why I would expect to see and we planned to some extent, we may have under-planned an increase in costs. +But I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ever get back to where, to the last quarter, if you're excluding December, of ninety two. +That should actually be our benchmark, I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to achieve that. +Now the very simple thing is if we just stop doing this other project and get the T As back down on to, if, if we need to do that. +But I don't see any reason why our that we shouldn't have the ability, as a man to making management decisions, that makes the productivity and cost profile achievable of at least what it was before Christmas. +Now that's all I'm saying. +Unless of course we have a significantly increased level of erm of post and then that changes the scenario quite again. +Now we're planning to do a, we don't wanna do another budget, re-budget forecast until June July, we, cos it, we don't need to do one for this bu any budget year starting July, we're gonna work on the calendar year. +Erm but one of the things that we, that we will need to do is actually to review the overtime for the last three months to say okay, what's it actually been spent on so that we can start to er make sure we've identified the reasons for it. +If the reasons for it are accommodating the release of people to, like Pam, Lewis and Ron and people like that whom we've released, erm and the experienced temps then you can at least say when they come back then that position should revert back to the norm. +So +Some of that's been done though hasn't it? +From what erm we did for yesterday. +Mm. +Some of it, things like the fax service +I think +which we certainly weren't doing, were we, in the last last year er review and the mechanics of the fax service we already thought that took up a lot of hours you know just putting, faxing them through, receiving them +But then you, that outweighs +No that ma that's saving us time +the, the time wasted on phone calls doesn't it? +Yeah. +I mean at least when you're getting the faxes and it's being recorded as working there's an enquiry +Mm we weren't convinced. +When we worked it out as an average that the sheer monitoring and chasing quotes or following up quotes erm and just preparing the documentation, we weren't convinced that was the case at all. +You'd expect the productivity to fall wouldn't you, if you were actually operating a fax service because you'd save, you'd take more time to monitor it +Er yeah +whereas the exact opposite's happened in west, the productivity on the section with the +It can't. +fax service has shot up, whereas the other one +I think it should shoot up. +operating a +I do. +normal service has gone down, so +Mm. +I don't see any reason why it, why it shouldn't do. +Why it shouldn't improve it. +Because A you're not wasting the time, you're not worrying about the post sort, you're getting the stuff quicker, you've got the thing logged in and logged out erm so to, to a great extent, I mean er we should be ab I personally think that we should actually s be trying s we should be expecting to see an advantage but let's just take that as as, as, as neutral so that you haven't got a er a worsening situation and you haven't taken adva taken advantage of any +Mm +er have any advantage in that. +We're also running erm without, we must be running without or we've got a significantly reduced level of chase-ups because our turn- rounds are, in most areas, are significantly better than they were. +And th and we've sustained that now for several months erm much more so than we did when we did the thing at the end of ninety one. +Erm now okay I accept that erm what you're getting now or starting to get through in some areas is a higher degree of expectation, but if we're not achieving that then I think it's something to do with what we're, the way in which we're, we're operating rather than the fact that it isn't achievable. +Mm. +Okay? +So all I'm saying is, if we're not achieving that we need to go back and look at the way in which we're operating the fax service, have a chat with erm Phil's people or Jackie's peo see if there's any differences that we can take advantage of. +Are we er are we, you know, gilding the lily? +If, cos if we are, we can't afford to. +Yeah. +It's as simple as that. +Erm so I all we're trying to do now at the moment though is, is to, to operate from the point of view of saying look, if you actually take all these things into account, we shouldn't be worse than we were ultimately, once these systems have bedded in, we're doing more checking on letters for example th than, than we w we won't have to once we've checked through the first two months of auto-offs, and we're getting used to the new reports and so on and that sort of stuff, so we expect there to be a blip, but you would expect a learning curve in anyway. +That's what I'm saying. +So once we're through that we need to be able to say okay, if there is a significant shift in the mix of work, then we need to be able to quantify exactly what that is. +Yeah. +Okay? +But I'd've thought that, that generally speaking, we should have been able to at least hold the line. +Cos if we haven't then all of our assumptions into why we're doing things like auto-offs and it improves the outgoing costs and then we've got better reta better information and better screens and all that sort of stuff, I mean it blows every single assumption we've made in a way. +You know that you've got, the fact that you can get current statements at the press of a button from July onwards, we should be able to say that means that on the teams that haven't gotta control the work going round to quotes and back again, having it typed and back again, +Mm. +there should be improvements in those areas. +That, that should surely improve turnaround times. +Which +yeah +which are already going down anyway +It won't, it won't improve turnaround times generally speaking on the quotes area cos that's kept separate. +Doesn't that affect teams? +It will it will im +Yeah cos +improve the overall +yeah. +It will have an improvement but I, I think we get that almost for free. +But it, well what it will do is it will actually mean that you haven't, shouldn't have to worry so much about keeping logs of what you've sent round and, and so on. +Mm. +So all I'm saying is that that's what we should expect to see. +Now the r the truth is, what we've gotta now check out, is actually is that reality, is the reality wildly out. +Cos if it is, how much are we gonna have to pay for it, and why and what can we do to try and bring it back in. +And that's what we've gotta try and do in the next, next few weeks really. +And monitor it very closely. +Erm one interesting point about overtime and temps er generally is that temps apparently unl are costing us around about fourteen K with overheads which is a lot more than I believed to be the case. +Er and Mark was saying to me yesterday +Erm Mark was saying yesterday that, unless you're erm going to be getting overtime done erm by supervisors, in which case temps are cheaper, you're better off using overtime er clerical staff than you are getting temps in. +So it's, if you're overtime is at the grade C level, or the workload is at the grade C level, then you're bet it's cheaper to get overtime done than it is to get temps. +That's the agency temps I presume? +All temps according to Mark. +There will be the very few exceptions. +Should we not also still go for the, if we can, the one and a half times they work Saturdays? +That'll make it even cheaper, instead of double time. +No well what we said is we're gon gonna scrap Saturdays unless we s consider it to be critical and unavoidable on the basis that, if they, they can work Saturdays if they'd rather work Saturdays than in the week, but that's their choice not ours +But then +they get pa they do it get paid for time and a half. +Yeah +Right. +Is, that's the decision from now on is it? +Well we, we're saying that now are we? +Yeah, I think we should say that, well really, unless we've got anything scheduled in the next week or two, let's get them out the way +Does that apply to E W S as well? +We've got, we've got two in er +April +April. +Well then let's fill in April, then I think we should actually make sure that we're comfortable that is essential and th that there is overtime being worked there that couldn't have be worked in the week. +You know I mean okay talking vast +I mean there's the argument I know people vary with their opinions but is it more productive on a Saturday? +I think +Yeah that's the way mine tend to think it's more productive on a Saturday. +I think so. +Mine are exactly split. +Some think it's a waste of space and others think, you know, it's er +Well in er I think you've gotta weigh up the p the productivity element against the cost, cost of it. +cost effectiveness +I think it must be easy to plan mustn't it if you know you've got that top number of hours from looking at what you've got +What essentially what you need to do how to do is if you wanna be able to work Saturdays we need to be able to prove that in fact pound per, per item of post on a Saturday is cheaper than because the productivity in the week will be lower therefore and even at time and a half, the cost of doing an hour's overtime for the work you get out in the week is, is less productive than doing double time with what you get out on a Saturday. +If that can be proved then we've got a case. +If it isn't then what we should then be saying is no week time over no week time work and just all work Saturdays if you see what I'm getting at. +If we can actually demonstrate that, but you've gotta see a significant improvement in your productivity on a Saturday to make it worth your while. +But I think it does doesn't it? +By the volumes +Yeah +Prove it. +they produce. +Yeah. +Well we've got plans, Mark you know produced plans with productivity for Saturdays alone. +In which case then we should be able to say that Saturday working costs X X pounds per item, and in the week it costs Y pounds per item. +If X is cheaper than Y then you've got your case. +Then you ban the weekday overtime. +Is there certain work there that has to be done during the week and can't wait till the weekend? +It will just come down to organization really won't it? +Between the teams. +Well I think it's an important issue, we need to sq we need to squeeze every, every pound out that we can if we're not to if we're not to affect our service level. +But the o the one thing I wanna say is that erm we need to do all we can to keep the c the over-run down to as low a figure as possible, and that's our job. +Bob's already indicated that he doesn't, he wants to do everything he possibly can to avoid us having to affect service levels okay, and obviously the overtime is the one thing that really is, stands out as being the issue anything else cos I mean our salary costs are there, there or thereabouts erm with the temps in it, erm we know we've got erm some temps. +One of the issues is we're not quite sure whether we've got a change in our planned spend, which is what makes the, the comparison against budget look as bad as it currently does, or whether in fact we genuinely are gonna over-run significantly. +So what does that mean with us doing with overtime at the moment then? +Sorry? +Cos we're, we're averaging what, two hundred hours per team per month? +Mm. +Well I think you, you, you've got, well you've got, if you're gonna work overtime, you've got to make sure that your productivity justifies it. +That it isn't just to catch up with unproductive people. +Yeah I'll ask supervisors to do everything by batch as opposed to allowing X number of hours, but then on top of that, saying alright you've got thirty hours this week +Mm sure. +allocate it how you want. +Yeah. +I think it does mean though that issues like erm long term sickness erm the issue that you've got with the two people in your patch, one of whom might go to the help desk, you need to get that resolved P D Q so you can say well I've reduced my h the temp over budget by one. +Okay? +So that then we can actually get somebody in there that can do the job properly. +And then we'll have to deal with that other one and er and, and resolve that one way or the other and make, make sure we've done that reasonably reasonably quickly, either g sending her back to new business or er trying to find another position for her if she can't actually cope with that. +Mm. +Erm the J C one we'll have to try and deal with that again as a separate issue but I don't, I mean the amount of time we're losing from high levels of sickness we talked about a c couple of meetings or so ago, about the absence levels with some people, we've just gotta make sure we crack that on the head, we're just haemorrhaging money, the fact that it is not just hours it's money. +We should be getting another one out soon shouldn't we, end of March? +Yeah there's no reason why you can't ask Trudy for an update now, you don't have to wait for Tr for Trudy's report. +If you want updates on those key individuals then let's get some. +But let's make sure we, we can make, make a k key point of that. +Did you do anything with the erm names we gave you for nil absence? +For nil absence? +No I haven't done anything with that yet. +Erm we, we can do. +Is that over ninety two? +Well over the the +Since the last +calendar year from +It was last year wasn't it? +during ninety two. +Yeah. +So what are we doing on the overtime then, Saturdays, at the moment? +I +Are we gonna go away and work out how much it is? +Yeah I think, I think what wh er you do need to have worked out in, in your own minds and justified it what your plans are in terms of u realizing the extra resource whether it be by temp or by overtime. +But the w clearly, in, in budget terms, we haven't got any left for the rest of this year now clearly then we that means we're gonna overspend. +The question is by how much. +Now +But we have to keep in mind that we're not gonna let service levels deteriorate so +We don't wanna l no. +But I think, but I do think it does mean that the first thing we say is that the work is more important than some of, maybe some of the, the nicer to have three year projects at the moment. +And that's gonna have to be some of the things that suffer. +If for example you've got a problem with productivity in your patch, erm because of the, the reasons we've talked about, it does mean that perhaps you need to say to whoever has been, is off and doing other projects that they'll have to stop doing that until you've got the productivity up till you can release them back again. +I think they'll have to recognize that it's gonna be roll your sleeves up and we're go we aren't gonna be able to do all of the things we wanted to do, and that's the price we're gonna have to pay. +Will that extend to things like the team reports, branch reports? +I think we just make sure we deal, make those as effective as possible. +And if, if, if that major issue then bring it back here and we'll make the decision okay we won't do any more till we're +I think those, those were some of the things weren't they s I don't know I mean we asked Geoff about the end of month reports, you know? +And they, I don't know what you'll think, but they reckon they spend at least two to three days average in the first week of the new month purely doing new reports. +sounds excessive +No +Fax reports, C F R reports +C F R reports +you know by the time you add all that time up it's high. +Well I did say to, to Nicholas that we would start to be looking at whether they're successful or not. +Mm. +Before you stop doing a C F R report you've got to prove they're a waste of time. +Mm. +In much the same way as we've got we've just gotta go away and do some questioning ourselves erm get amongst it an say okay can we do some of these things more effectively? +If the fax is taking a l a longer time then there are some issues we need to pick up with that. +But clearly we've got the charter commitments and we need to make sure we fulfil those. +Erm one of the issues is going to be is whether or not we can afford to improve the level of the commitments apart from adding things as we go through. +If we can't we can't, it's as simple as that. +But erm I mean th th the debate yesterday was, was as, as budget issues always are I mean when you're talking about budget no matter, even in boom years you're always still talking oh we haven't got enough money erm but it was positive in the sense that it was A we're coming off the back of some good performance, and that's important to remember, and all I'm saying is there's no reason why we shouldn't be able to maintain our performance, even if we can't improve it in the next two or three months erm from, to where we actually think we should have been given that the systems come in last year. +Er so what I'm looking for is to try and see that we do all we can to make sure that the second half of ninety three we take full advantage of everything that we've got so that we do actually rapidly increase our productivity in the second half of the year. +And our job's gotta be to tr I, I suppose really to try and move anything that gets in the way of achieving that. +If you can release a temp, then let's do that. +What about the situation on claims then? +You mentioned at the beginning about +Well that's potentially, er no decision's been made as yet to review that budgeting exercise and I think erm that's likely to be the position for the next month or two erm so I would expect them to, to be doing their overtime levels as, as they currently are. +Erm the one issue on E W S Ian is erm, there's two issues really I happened to see your draft note to me out there +Oh you've seem it? +Yeah. +Erm you wouldn't have you wouldn't be releasing Michelle back and losing losing her to testing. +Cos that's something which Jane seems to think will happen. +She says she badly needs +Oh you see if they want her back to testing they've gotta pay for the resource to er for us to, to, to recruit somebody else in the meantime. +And whether it's Michelle we release back is another issue. +I didn't name names in the thing in case anybody saw it in case you +No it's up to us to, to decide how the best way to handle that is. +But there is budget in the testing resource budget to be able to accommodate for cover we would then decide how best to handle that. +Okay. +I've got Lyn who's due to go back for a month erm end of May for most of er June, upstairs +Then you should get the temp and the budget to cover it. +Right. +Okay? +That's what their and you make sure you get it. +Yeah. +Okay? +Erm the, the issue is to make sure that you've got people that we, that are up there and, and temps like Lawrence and so on, that we don't lose that we can actually utilize. +Do we know when Michelle might be available to join E W S? +I asked erm Ian yesterday to try and give me the dates so I, I'm, I expect him to come back to me today with some idea on that. +It should be before Tracey goes. +And what about overtime on Sa I mean at the moment some of them are working during the week and Saturdays and they need that to maintain the sort of service level that we're doing at the moment. +W well the only issue for you is whether or not you can, you're in good enough control there to be able to say can you we need to be within the four to six banding, okay? +Erm I think I am at the moment aren't I? +Yeah +Mm. +you're down un down as four according to the la the last one I got. +So I could let it slip slightly? +Well you, you can actually cut down some of the overtime maybe, and you need to review that and that's, you need to make that decision. +I've put a lid on it anyway +Yeah +they're not allowed to do more than ten hours each. +So I then, I don't stipulate whether that's during the week though or whether that's at the weekend because I, I agree with what's been said about they're, they're more productive during the weekend cos they don't get the interruptions +Mm. +Mm. +so but I agree, I mean you could start trying to look at it and cost it +Well they don't get the interruptions in the evenings, or shouldn't do. +No, I think they're more tired and it's I think it tends, tends, things tend +I think you're right, they're just +from the day do tend to drag on don't they? +Mm. +Weekends they're fresh, they're more likely to +Whereas on, on Saturdays it's easier for supervisors to say okay well this day we're gonna be doing +This is wha , yeah +arguments +In which case there's more to be said for actually not, for doing less, less in, in the week +During the week yeah. +even at double time so we need to check that out. +If that figure's justified though then I'll bat on that basis. +Cos the important thing is is not so much the number of hours as the, the, the affecting on, the effect on the cost. +So what happened about time and a half? +Are we still going for that? +Well I told my lot to whatever they do on a Saturday, put it down on Monday and that way it'll automatically get paid at time and a half. +So yours are already only being paid time and a half? +Well for this Saturday onwards, yeah. +done that. +Well I sort of gave them a choice, do they want to nominate who does overtime or do they want to have a cat or do they want to pay, get paid less and they said they'll get paid less. +I gave them a choice. +We all need to be consistent I think don't you? +Mm +Yeah. +Yeah +I think you need to check out those figures first, before you make a decision on it. +Cos it might be that it's more productive. +But the question that mi will be raised, depending on, is why aren't we that m that productive ordinarily? +Is it just because there are no interruptions? +Erm that's what we need to find out I suppose. +I just got these, the quotes figures here we, first three months of the year we were budgeted for six hundred and eight hours overtime and we a actually did sixteen hundred. +A thousand hours? +A thousand hours er i i i hundred and sixty seven hundred and seventy percent increase. +Any idea what cost that is? +Well it's equivalent to an another two and a half people. +But that's on overtime rates so, no I don't know I haven't, well I can probably work it roughly +Two and a half that's about that should be about seven or eight thousand won't it? +At least. +Is that, there,tha that's, that's e so that's just the extra amount? +Thousand hours extra, yeah +Yeah. +over three months. +So so that's thr that's almost three times what you were expecting ? +It's er yeah two and a half hundred and sixty percent higher than, than I would expect. +Yeah. +That's the, that's for every month? +No +Ju ju just +That's over the three months. +One quarter of the year. +That's over the three months. +Well it, the difference, I can tell you what the difference is ten grand. +That's how, that's how much my budget is overspent er ov overtime is overspent. +Right. +So our variance is seventy three so take that out that's sixty three from our variance overall the rest of the patch is sixty three. +But again we also need to work out how much has been spent on claims and E W S on on work which is er higher than budgets but we can say okay, that's not a direct result of deteriorating productivity, that's a direct result of, of problems we've got with temps and so on, that's a problem we've got with increased, increased work levels. +So I need to be able to get down to actu that's when you, supposing that comes down by another ten K say, so then we're talking about fifty K, thereabouts, overspend in the main area, in which case to work out what's caused that, is that directly attributable to the the inputting of the systems. +If it is then we should be able to say okay, as we come clear of the systems, we should actually be, that should be just a one off, special cause for that period. +Anyway Maureen'll be trying to work out some, some of the, some of the issues so you expect that. +How were things on Friday then? +I mean did you see her after Friday's meeting? +Yeah +And were they were they that wildly out or? +Well this is erm as I say we, we, we could've been somewhere in the region of two hundred and fifty thousand just on the I T issues alone. +But it doesn't actually account for all of the overtime that we've spent not directly anyway. +A part of that obviously I think is going to be that there was an expected higher level of productivity than we've actually achieved, cos you know in January I think in, in Christine's area for example, to start off with I mean er er er productivity plummeted erm and it's now, and she changed the system and, and one or two other things. +And you've seen for example in central, Sheila, that their, their productivity level has improved +Mm +almost week by week. +So what we actually are possibly seeing is ourselves coming out of the trough so therefore part of it's a training curve, but we do need to see that training curve start to come down and get back on to a level but we don't know where the level is, that's what worries us at this stage. +And that's what we want to make sure we are in control of. +Okay. +It's important but I, I wouldn't I don't want to er get carried away with the fact that we're not performing well because we are performing well. +Okay erm do you have any questions on that? +No? +No. +Okay erm just move on to erm some items from the breakfast meeting this morning. +Firstly, tomorrow you will see, I'm told, a man in a rai raincoat walking around the offices erm +a guy called Mr maybe he's wearing a trilby as well with a tape measure. +He'll be measuring things around the office. +It's partly to do with the rent review. +Erm the, the instructions I've got is be courteous but we're not here to answer questions. +So if he asks you questions about the building or whatever then dunno +Ignore him +refer him refer him back to Office Services. +Erm right, some other good news as well some good news coming out this morning, all these green shoots everywhere. +Just give you some information on, on the fo sales forecast and sales r sales results erm on the sales forecasting front erm there's been a, a quite significant growth in head count in March, particularly. +Erm most have, in fact most of which is er b er seventy four additional heads were put on in March, so we've gone from seventeen twenty three to seventeen ninety seven erm and Mick accounted for most of those with forty four. +Erm and that means that we're thirty four heads up on budget at the end of March erm which is g very good news. +Now one of the interesting things about this is that they've worked out, in order to erm achieve our sales forecast, erm the impact of recruitment for each branch is that we need a net growth in branch of one plus one for every er on every month. +So each month they've gotta put, each branch have gotta put on plus nine between now and December and that should translate itself if the theory works erm to the figures that we want. +And it's also not an unachievable figure, plus one a month net. +Is that one over their existing forecast? +Oh just one over their existing number? +Yeah, take the current number, add one +Oh +so where you've got ten now, you end up with eleven at the end of the month, next +Right +month you end up with twelve and so on. +Erm now Alton for example started off at the beginning of the year with four and they're now at thirty three very s very impressive how much they, them will succeed I don't know but some other good news on that front is that erm the average age of our consultants overall is now thirty one, whereas three years ago it was twe below twenty one. +So +Below twenty one the average? +Yeah, the average age three over three years ago, it's now above thirty one. +Thirty one-ish. +The average age of our new recruits is now twenty nine. +Sorry it's the other figure, the average age of our new recruits was under twenty one three years ago, right? +The average age was about twenty three I think. +So the average of the new recruits is twenty? +Twenty nine. +Just +Go on. +What's the total consultant count now? +Seventeen ninety something? +Seventeen +Yeah it's just yeah it's almost eighteen hundred. +Er which is a above budget. +The other issue is that erm the production for March erm was a, was a gross brokerage of three point three mill and erm, which is plus six percent on the budgeted figure +That's good. +but I ought to explain what I mean by budgeted fi figure. +That's the, that's, that's the planned figure, the forecast figure. +Now one of the things you might've seen from the corporate briefings is you've got the budget figure and a forecast figure. +The budget figure is what's been agreed with and it's a straightforward month by month, seasonally adjusted erm budget which comes to the end result figure that we're aiming for for this year. +Erm the forecast figure is our plan of getting to the end result, which is not the same thing, which is in a way it's a bit like our overtime hours and some of the areas we said that we would spend X amount of hours in, in two months, we've had to then change the shape of that and said we'd have half of X over five months, so our forecast i is being done differently, cos they've worked out the, the branch forecast quite significantly differently erm Jeremy went through, through most of th briefly most of the means of doing that this morning and it sounds a lot more sensible than what they've done in the past. +So when you see the forecast figures and, and, in, in the, the , that's what our plan is. +If we hit our forecasts, even though it's below budget, we will actually hit our end of year targets. +Erm it's g there now obviously the end of year it builds up over the end of the year partly because it relies on the extra recruitment and the increasing sales per er per capita erm or per capita sales I should say. +Erm but it, it certainly is achievable. +It isn't sort of oh well, just go for it, you know. +It is certainly achievable and it has been done in er at varying levels by region and branch. +And the worst branches have been given the, the, the stiffer targets to get them up to scratch. +In other words the people who are performing well already will find it harder to make erm a significant inroad into that. +So there's some good news there. +Erm in March the top branch was erm Hugh erm interestingly enough erm in the south erm Nicholas erm was well down on recruitment, he was down minus twenty seven on his fore on his target, but was significantly up on his bus business that he brought in because they've been focusing on er in on that. +But erm the conversations I've had yesterday indicate that they are doing a major push on recruitment. +So er and they're very bullish I have to say, very bullish about the way things are going. +So that's looking pretty good on that. +I don't think I've got anything more from this morning so, only a bit about policy fees which I believe are now scheduled go up in first of August. +There'll be an announcement about that and there's a team being put together to do the implementation. +Are they gonna actually an announce it to erm the general public? +Yes. +Cos they were gonna just put it in generally speaking, you know +Yeah but they're, but they're not they're gonna do it in some time in June I think that's the target. +But I haven't got any more details of that yet. +They're working on what they're gonna say and when they're gonna do it at the moment. +Is that John ?sponsor +Erm I think, well I think 's sponsoring it, erm with John . +And Valerie and erm Roger will still be helping to put together the communication stuff. +Do you know we're actually, on some cases we're actually stealing their thunder. +Erm we've got some stand alone term insurances which are currently paying one pound ninety, so the moment they increase the policy fee they'll attempt to lapse so we're writing to all those people now to tell them to increase. +What we telling them to increase to? +That I've said erm if you take into account inflation at five percent which they, they, although they're not, haven't put it in concrete, they reckon they're gonna link it to inflation, erm that should be, in thirty years time, about five pounds. +So I said erm if we say increase to five pounds now, they don't have to, but it means that they'll probably have a significant unit holding, you know, to compensate them. +So five pounds will be absolutely safe but anything less than that won't be. +But which, which type of policy is it? +It's +what? +That I mean there, there won't actually be any impact on the system will there? +It won't actually lapse them off but it'll, you know, give them a negative unit situation. +Well th if it's only, if it's only term assurance there's no units involved anyway. +No but the one pound, the O one record +We'd never get our money would we? +the O one record +The O one will be going further into than the +That's right. +Yeah. +Is that, presumably that's what's happening at the moment, it just goes one pound ninety in deficit each month +Yeah. +in the O one? +And you see the problem with erm depending on the unit, the bid off the spread etcetera, sometimes they're paying us one pound ninety and it actually ends up in a nu mi minus unit situation +Aha +cos of the five percent bid off the spread. +So +And what happens in those cases then? +On those cases it, it usually evens itself out er it usually says oh due to roundings I'll ignore that erm cos I've actu erm I've gained through the unit statement on, cos I've had one of these stand alone policies, and not wishing to pay the one pound ninety I've actually knocked it on the head now and incorporated it with another policy, but erm when we looked at it all, overall I've got a nil unit situation but in some months I actually had negative units, some months I had a, a sort of like point zero one of a unit positive. +So there you go. +Okay erm I've got, I just thought I'd, might just let you know that the, the end result figure that, that, on the recruitment front, they reckon they'll be at twenty three hundred by the end of the year. +Good news. +Okay, Jackie first of April recall problem. +control contacted me yesterday to say that erm due to loss of system last week, and the fact that the Easter weekend erm is looming up on us, it means that they've, they've got insufficient time to run all the jobs that they needed to erm in the space that they, they would like to run them in. +They gave me two options, basically one was to take the system down for twenty four hours and er while they got, they caught up with the jobs which I, I, I've knocked on the head. +The other one was that they would be th the direct debit re-present on the first of April would be running one day late erm which, as a consequence, means that the recall re-presents would come back one day late. +The recall re-presents come back in two phases erm one tape will come back on the fifteenth of April, the second tape will come back on the sixteenth of April which means that those policies, when status report runs on the fifteenth of April it will only assess those policies erm that have had +yeah it'll, it'll assess them up until the fourteenth and fifteenth of April and it won't take into consideration there's been a recall after that date. +So it won't, they won't get picked up for arrears processing. +I think there's only about, well on average there's only between thirty and forty cases erm and which they are happy to identify for us erm so we can go in and update the diary or, or do whatever. +Shouldn't +Er but I don't believe it's worthwhile doing manual on the cases, they will get picked up in the next data support run which runs two weeks afterwards, that'll be erm beginning of May. +So it will just mean that on those cases, on approximately forty, their arrears letter will be going out a couple of weeks late. +When does the er status report run? +Is it on the fifteenth? +No it, I think it actually runs on the sixteenth but it only looks at premiums up to the fifteenth, think that's built into the, the, the parameters on it. +That's okay, if the premium was due on the first even though, if, if we'd done the erm the recall before the status report runs it will show that as being in arrears? +Yeah but if we'd then gone in to re-present +Yeah +it shows it as back in force and the, and the re-present will have gone +But if that comes back on the sixteenth, is that, is that what you're saying, yeah? +Yeah. +It comes +And if the status report runs after we run that recall tape +No it's because it'll only look at the +No it can't. +It will only look at the premium status up to the fifteenth of the month, it won't take into consideration when so recall's gone through on the sixteenth of the month. +That's why it used to say please ignore this letter if you've paid in the last few days. +Mm. +Mm. +I didn't think that was the way it worked. +Well Terry confirmed that to me yesterday cos I asked the question could we not just run it +Later +later and erm it doesn't +T Terry ? +Yeah. +Would he know? +Well he's checked +It might be worth checking with, with erm Paul. +I, I think this business of up to the fourteenth is premiums due up to the fourteenth. +If you don't run the status report until the twentieth and you make, you, you do reversals between the fifteenth and the twentieth the status report will take those into account if they're affecting premiums that were due before the fifteenth. +Oh, okay I'll check that with +Jim would know. +I don't know if Paul knows. +Paul . +Or Paul, yeah. +Jim did a lot of work in the programming of it. +Okay, I'll let you know. +Either way it seems like we, even if it is a problem it's Paul +anyway, yeah. +Okay. +data integrity. +Right. +The team our team started erm this week and they're now in the process of writing procedures and er putting the training package together. +They're also looking at some of the data integrity erm issues one of which is potentially quite a major problem and the new system will for any qualifying plans, once the new system is in, if a policy's in arrears it will try and collect the arrears and it will collect up to a maximum of two premiums each month until the policy's in force and up to date. +A lot of erm group one plans are, there are about ten thousand plans that are showing an arrears status at the moment, and premium has been missed some time ago, it's not a, not a current premium, which means on the fifteenth of June or the first of July we will automatically go in and pick up two premiums, we'll t we'll try and collect the arrears without having notified the client of it in any way at all. +So we're l , we're l , we're looking at a couple of the options to see, you know, how much will it cost to actually put the money on the policy rather than going to the effort of writing it out, and it's gonna cost about two hundred thousand pounds just to do that, erm and that, we need, we need to weigh that up with the cost of actually dealing with ten thousand letters to clients, ten thousand enquiries erm I just wondered what your thoughts were on how we should proceed. +the overtime budget +So we, we will have actually written to them won't we? +A long time ago, yeah. +At some time ago to say you're in arrears +Mm. +and never written again. +Mm. +This is on the conversion is it? +Going from ? +Yes, that first month. +Mm. +Yeah. +These are the ones where we've pulled, the capsule ones? +Same sort of scenario but there's a lot more of them on this is it? +Well the capsule was always worked in the same, in the way +No the capsule, yeah, it was always collected +Yeah, always collected +No er sorry that you're always sending them duplicate letters aren't you? +Are they not gonna get any letters at all? +No. +No. +No no no +You're just gonna go in and collect the money. +We're just gonna go in and collect the money without having told the client. +You couldn't credit the money and then take it off later? +No sense in that. +it's an ongoing thing. +Th th those plans are designed such that all the premiums have to be paid. +Mm. +Can't we trigger another arrears letter? +Just before we go in? +Well if we know what the policies are +Mm +which we do, we can set a letter up on the system and we just +On the system? +Yeah the stand alone letter system, just get everybody to go in and request that letter. +It'll be a very, could be a very vague letter just say you remember we wrote to you some time ago that your plan was in arrears, we've never had this money and we're now notifying you that we're gonna collect the arrears on your ne c payment. +We won't be able to tell them what that amount is. +We'll be able to tell them the date though won't we? +Mm not necessarily. +Not, not on the stand alone system? +No. +It will be one of two days. +It'll be one of two days, it'll be the fifteenth of June or the first of July. +It's ten thousand you're talking about? +Mm. +But they could be in arrears by more than one payment couldn't they? +Yeah. +So you could not just be talking about the first premium. +Well m most +Ah +most of them will be in, in arrears by one premium +if they're two they should be lapped shouldn't they? +Yeah. +Yeah and we can er, they're actually discounted those ones so yes they are one +Good. +one in arrears, mm. +I don't think I've got an answer +No use looking at me I haven't got any answers for it +er +Well you're answer must be twenty two hundred thousand +about a thousand. +No it won't won't be. +Yeah and that's the other issue, they've gotta be done, whatever we do it's gotta be done quickly now we're talking about implementation just two months away. +Does the erm does the report show the date that they, they pay their premiums? +No. +D d yes it does show the date, it doesn't you dates missed. +It does show the date, month. +First +I is it possible to identify these cases? +Yeah we have identified them. +Then isn't it possible for us to take a download of those cases, names an and addresses, and do a one-off special letter, as Bob suggests? +And start doing that now. +And just say that in, in, in July, during July, this will be collected in July. +Don't know. +You're giving them three months then aren't you? +Yes +It'll cost us won't it? +I mean it's a further development. +Yeah if we could download it on to a P C +a P C +and get the people downstairs to do it it would be about ten grand all in. +Which people? +Erm the, not sure, the computer +Information centre you talking about? +yeah the information centre. +We've got, we've gotta pay, we've gotta pay to draw the, the, the lists off ini initially +Well we've gotta do that anyway. +We've got that +and once you've got that on a disk then +to do the download. +Yeah, get it downloaded on disk and then put it on a P C downstairs. +I don't want spending all the money on +Why can't we could, as I suggest it would be slightly vague and, and the fact that the, the report shows the collection date, we could say the date it's going to be collected cos you'd get them to go through all +Yeah +and do all the fifteenth first +Mm. +and then we change the letter on the stand alone system and do all the firsts. +Yes, yeah we could do that. +But you just won't say the amount that's all. +Erm the arrears letter at the moment don't give an amount. +They w o on the arrears letter we write and we say you're in arrears, please send us a cheque for the usual amount. +Which c which type of policy you talking about? +All group one policies, so it's benefits on pensions plus all the erm qualifying policies +on pensions +Pensions would have, yeah. +would be slightly different because they, we'd only be collecting a part of the premium we wouldn't be collecting their investment part if that's in arrears. +I think we have to do a note, a letter, of some sort. +Yeah. +If there, if there was a +So you are in arrears, we've told you before +Mm +we're gonna, just letting you know we're gonna try and we're, we'll attempt to collect this +Presumably if they wanna know how much they ring up anyway don't they? +Yeah. +Yeah we don't want ten thousand enquiries +Well this is the th +No well we can phase it though couldn't we? +They're, are they all gonna be the same, same date? +Yeah, all gonna be on the fifteenth +Well some will be the fifteenth of June, some will be the first of July. +No I mean the, the arrears aren't at the same date are they? +No. +No. +How's the report been produced? +Just policy number order? +Erm +Team. +team order I believe, yeah. +So each team knows their own cases. +Does the report tell you how much against each policy? +Mm +Oh it says how much they're in arrears? +Mm. +Do we know wh when it was from? +We don't I suppose +When the arrears is from no. +We've done a comparison between those that were in arrears before the beginning of ninety two and ones that have been in arrears after ninety two, and it's erm approximately eighty percent before ninety two erm twenty percent after. +Before nineteen ninety two? +It's a long time isn't it? +Mm yeah. +So it's nineteen ninety one arrears? +And before. +And a lot of them are before that. +Can't we just do a premium holiday on them? +Not on +You can't have a premium holiday on a qualifying plan. +These are all qualifying are they? +Mm. +So you're gonna have enquiries, aren't we, about +Why +how d you know yeah, you're telling me now that I missed something in eighty seven. +No we will have already told them then. +And that'll be in the diary won't it? +Yeah taken you two years to collect it. +Mm. +Well it could be more than that, it could be eighty +Well eighty four, eighty five. +Yeah over six years innit? +Well is there like financial correction? +Didn't we do it on ano on another situation where we're basically saying it's a system problem more than a plan problem. +Are you talking about the, the winding forward of bill two pay two? +Worth a try. +So we just write it up but we don't actually +Well all we +Yeah money paid does it? +I know, yeah. +It's just a correcting +Yeah +system +But it works it works by money doesn't it? +Yeah. +It doesn't work by winding anything on, +No the, the amount due has to equal the amount paid +the system can't +otherwise the system can't cope with it. +Can't we do a manual ? +Mm. +No, the only manual would +No I mean, that's right, a computer I mean +Yeah. +Yeah do a things. +We can't do ten thousand D F Us, no, no way it's +Why what a er what about doing taking it out of er I mean the only way is taking out +Mm. +but putting a note on the diary that when that policy comes to erm +Mature +No you've still gotta +to mature +thousand pounds +you pay the money back in to . +You take that money +Yeah it's like a loan isn't it? +Yeah that is a debt against the policy but it would be so hard to administer +Yeah, oh we won't keep that up will we? +I mean we'll end up sending out +Fifteen diary screens later +you know telling what the value is and +Yeah yeah yeah +I, I mean if, we know how much is outstanding on each one, we know when it's due to be paid, we know it's gonna be about eight hundred policies a section, is it, ten thousand? +Ten thousand. +I think we ought to bite the bullet and write to them now and say if you don't pay us a cheque for this amount cos it's qualifying we'll collect on next date. +And we'll just +Yeah we're giving them three months notice, if we can do that quickly +And each team'll have to do a hundred +Well each team, that means we're gonna, we've got overtime then for +It's a hundred a week they'll have to do, per team. +No wh what I'm saying is why can't we produce the letters off the box let's, can we find out exactly what it would, what, how er if we can find a way of getting this information downloaded onto a disk and then run it off on a straightforward standard letter basis. +Yeah it's gonna be the overtime won't it? +Mm. +How do I find that out then? +Erm well the first person to ask probably would be Paul , if he'd download it onto a tape, how difficult would that be and he'll give you +And he'll be going ee! +kick him in the goolies, I mean +Scrub that bit +Erm Louise did a similar thing for me, managed to get some one-off letters run off the system. +Erm Maxine was involved and they didn't get involved. +Louise first. +Okay. +I we could still use the stand alone system which I think'll be the quickest. +Use the stand alone system so it gets the date that we're going to collect it, it can say all the things that we've said, it's, you know, we wrote to you some time ago and, and er we, we didn't get the money if you don't, as you said, if you don't send us this money we're gonna sounds like a threat doesn't it, if you don't send this money within the next three months we'll automatically collect it together with your regular premium due on the date +To ensure the qualifying status is maintained +yeah +Mm +And then we can say the actual amount that we're gonna collect is and just hand write it. +Could do. +Leave a space and they just hand write it straight off the report. +Doesn't look very professional but I suppose it's better than not telling them +Well it's better than spending a lot of money +but it's an option. +Get them pre-printed +Mm +rather than typed. +You've got all the name and address then +No cos it pulls up the name and address. +If you do it through the system +Yeah +Oh right yeah +through, through the system, but what that can't do is to pull off the arrears amount. +But you, you've got them on the report, we could just write the arrears amount +Yeah, I think you're right that's, that's +That sounds like a reasonable idea. +And they are our longer lasting customers so I don't think we're gonna get up their noses too much. +So I don't need to speak to Paul then? +We just need to get a letter set up on the stand alone system. +Well on that way, yeah. +Two letters, one for the first one for the fifteenth. +Mm. +Well let's try and go for that then. +And you've got the amounts on the report anyway. +check check it out that it will, we think it'll work but +Now whose name shall these go, letters go in ? +I, I, I, I should say they need to go off no they need, they need to go off, off, off team +Mm. +because if anybody's got a query, well like well when was it paid somebody's gonna have to look up and scroll back and +Yeah mm. +In that case we need a space for them to write their team number on. +Why not just put it in the reference? +But isn't that the sort of thing ? +No you can't, you, you only have, you can only hand write . +If you do that through the cheapest method which is the stand alone system it won't pull that off. +No that's what I mean, hand write it +Hand write, yeah, and the team telephone number. +If you've got any queries +You don't want enquiry desk number? +No I don't think so, you need to spread the load. +If you've got any queries on this please call me on and they write in blah blah and they sign their name so that it's legible. +Isn't the enquiry desk capable of looking out when that arrears +Well th they're al they're already snowed under with calls, if you've got another ten thousand cases and, and e the teams will have all the information, they'll have the reports you see. +I don't think the arrears, when they, when it occurred is on the report +The arrears isn't, no, they'd, you'd have to go in and +No no not when it occurred but what it is and when it's gonna be collected is. +Well let we'll draft a letter up and see s s s +Okay yeah. +but we need to get that out probably during April. +Yeah. +Okay. +Anything else on that then? +No. +Erm on the stuff we've already talked about, sickness, erm er and Michelle, the transfers from S I S, one of the issues from the budget was that erm B S G B S G? +Mm. +Yeah +Yeah is currently running about six vacancies light. +Now it may well be that some people will transfer from S I S into B S G, I don't know yet, erm +Where've they managed to get all these vacancies from? +Yeah! +Cos they're supposed to have, their budget's for twenty and they've only got fourteen. +The other issue +They've budgeted for er twelve senior managers +Well one or two have left of course. +Erm +Is that a new budget then? +Or is that from last year? +No it's from the, it's from the other old budget, I mean it's the cos it's b all been rejigged but the overall impact is that Ma Mark has got six vacancies. +Now the debate we're having is whether or not we fill those and transfer, not go and recruit extra people but we'd reduce the S I S, cos one of the issues is that erm the overspend on Marvin is seven figures. +What do you mean on Marvin? +On ? +Yeah. +Potentially. +Pu pulled Bob out of his coffee yesterday So one of the issues is if we don't do certainly er the timing, all of the issues that are on there that we'd like to do erm that means we've got less testing, if you're gonna do less testing then so it might be that they er re-utilize the resource that way. +But I mean that's just what we're exploring at the moment. +So it might well be that we don't get the S I S people that we previously thought we might do. +In some ways that might be good news, some ways it isn't. +Erm but again I don't suspect that there's gonna be any any impact on that for the, for at least two months. +There wouldn't be too many of the S I S people that would be suitable would there? +Well no, but then that hasn't stopped has it? +If you see what I mean. +So in some +Right. +ways I'm not unhappy. +No no, oh no. +erm if that does come about but it's, it's an issue. +It's like the same issue we talked about the three year plan projects if necessary we'll have to slow down on some of the projects, certainly to get through this budget year intact. +Obviously if business goes really swimmingly then it may be easier to , I'm not sure. +Phil, units update, +Right erm we have run two now er unit data correction runs and it looks like we're correcting about seventy six percent, on average, of the policy base erm the other twenty four percent being cases which are being sliced erm multiple events, you know, er and all the rest of it, all real horror stories. +Erm it does mean that we've got, so far we've gone through twenty two thousand policies, we're still in December erm anniversary dates erm so there's twenty thousand waiting to be printed two thousand were printed last night and they're going straight out the door,today. +Erm we did an initial pilot run of nine hundred and seven, er and we had them redirected here which was quite fortunate cos we did find some er previously unthought of errors, erm there were two categories, these are ones where, since the renewal date, they've had er a decrease erm sorry an increase which meant that erm we're now quoting on their benefit statement as at last renewal, they've got today's er premium which of course is wrong, so we've had those redirected in future, inside here. +And there's also some cases where er the plans have actually partially lapsed since last renewal and in which case it's quoting the premium they're paying now which is a lot less than the premium they were paying at renewal. +So who's gonna be doing those? +Those are gonna be redirected in here erm as well but it turns out that erm those two types roughly equate to forty out of two thousand which is half a, half a percent? +Yeah. +It's +So +only for matter of a week, ten days by which time it'll be fixed. +Yeah we +So there's we just won't be sending statements out? +Er no th th for anything that they run this week, they'll be redirected in in-house, so we should be getting er about forty of those statements in tomorrow and forty the next day. +And then they'll be reproduced? +And then what we'll have to do,th the unit statement's perfectly okay, the benefit statement all you've got to do is get the benefit statement retyped but with a different premium in at renewal date. +So the teams have got to do that have they? +Yeah. +This problem is only because you're doing them retrospectively, if you were up to date you wouldn't have a problem at all would you? +Yes no problem, no. +I mean it'll, this +But we can't wait until Ju July for, to be complete. +So you'd rather go ahead and just make numbers involved. +Yeah. +Well cos, for the sake of ten days there er er er erm Martin was gonna fix the problem, erm within ten days but we don't wanna have to go back and reprint everything cos the unit statement's perfectly valid. +Yeah. +Most of the i issues on the ben for most benefit statements they're also valid, it's just for these small number of cases where they're, they're not. +Erm and it's really a question of retype the, the benefit +Is it set up on the system, word processing? +No it's not yet. +I've got the first batch came back this morning, so now I, I've actually got the examples I can do it, it's not, no problem. +Erm we've got, because we decided er decided that er redirect the whole first batch in-house we've got nine hundred and odd statements +You could of course not send the benefit statement. +Well the letter says +Mm. +change the letter. +So if you're gonna retype you might as well +Yeah and it's nice on the benefit statement to at least they've got something to reconcile against the units so that you've paid a total of ten +Yeah, yeah you're right, yeah I was +How ma how many do you reckon there'll be? +Yeah yeah I know, yeah . +How many do you reckon there'll be? +Forty a day. +Forty a day. +So it's not an awful hassle +Forty over ten days? +No forty over er er +Er forty a day over ten days. +it'll only be until I should think erm next Tuesday will be the last batch, cos we've got these bank holidays fortunately in the, in the way where I T still work but we don't and so they're gonna fix, they'll carry on fixing it over the weekend. +Erm there's nine hundred statements coming back in today but the units team that you all kindly lent me, we're all gonna sort through those and stuff them in envelopes and get them out the door. +Okay. +So the other ones, the ones that need correcting, we've gotta do a procedure or something for the team? +Yeah. +How do you pick up the ones that need correcting? +The, they did an easy-trieve which runs every, every time they do a run they, they run and before they do a run they do an easy-trieve er identify those cases and then there's a marker you can put on poll M to redirect, it doesn't change the address but it redirects the unit statement in-house. +Ooh magic. +Yeah. +Super. +I had to use it for one of Andy +That's worth knowing isn't it, in case +yeah one of Andy's cases this morning I had to do it where it had growth old cash on it, which it shouldn't have had so it was quite handy. +Mm. +And there you have it. +So we're up and running now. +Okay statement. +Okay I suggest we take a five minute break before we go on and just talk about regionalization and get a coffee or whatever. +Back here at five to? +Mm +on the faxes, just erm one item that came up really from yesterday which I've already passed on to, to Sheila from the south cos it was raised at the south meeting but I think it's relevant to everybody. +When we're using the fax facility and we get a series of policy numbers and a problem coming through to us erm that's not so bad cos that's being amalgamated by the branch secretaries, when it's going back, and we do it on the same one single fax going back, they're sitting there snipping up individual replies, you know putting individual replies into consultants' baskets unless they photocopy the whole sheet in which case they've got a confidentiality problem. +Do you think you could look into trying to, when we're going back on the information, sending an individual fax for each case? +We had this with Malcolm didn't we? +From before. +I . +Yeah and we talked about doing it by consultant, rather than by client +Well by consultant, yeah. +it was an idea. +But some of the branches apparently just like pinned it up, been quite happy to pin up the returned fax and then each consultant just gone and read his own bit. +Yeah I know but, but mm okay +I mean rather than do all the photocopying or whatever. +If you ha if you haven't had it rai if you haven't got a problem then fair enough but if you do get it raised as a problem, the confidentiality bit, then fair enough. +But I told Malcolm yesterday that I thought that, that we operated on the basis that they trusted everybody. +There's a cost implication there of doing a separate fax for each consultant. +Yeah. +And time. +Cos on ours, we just return the same thing that they send +That's right. +What we get +Yeah, yeah that's right. +Well perhaps I'll just do it for Malcolm's patch. +I'll speak to Tim, what did Tim think? +I think it was they wanted a complete reply for each consultant file, or case file didn't they? +Mm. +Which +Unlike Malcolm to complain though isn't it? +Mm. +Validly? +No you're right. +With a valid er +Right, okay. +Erm the other thing was that the people at senior level need to be reminded, if they do have a major problem erm that's David and Malcolm, erm where, if they've got a rather difficult case and it's urgent and they want a, they don't wanna have to put it on a, on a fax, they want, they need it there and then erm, and they don't like the telephone call facility, I said well, well that's primarily for consultants. +Erm +Sorry to interrupt you but there's nobody around at all and I've, yeah if I can just +No and Sue's just gone off sick, yeah. +leave that with Phil rather than keep running up and down +Yeah sure. +the stairs. +Ta, ta. +Erm Ian left that with me and I was to speak to Bob before Bob gave it to because it wasn't very good. +Oh right. +Wha what wasn't very good about it ? +when you've checked it. +Oh the value isn't very good? +Well that's what I assume he meant. +Yeah we know that, I've already told Bob that. +Ah! +It's even worse . +Oh no! +He's made seven and a half +P? +Thank you very much. +Oh dear oh dear oh dear. +Yep. +Okay so where were we? +Talking about the faxes weren't we? +Erm the point I made to them, that everybody round that table, if they did have a problem that they thought was urgent, they should get on the phone to the, you know, Steve and +Mm +They do. +Sheila. +I mean they do do it. +Yeah +I know they do but I mean I +I'm not gonna sit there calling Malcolm a I could have done but er +What I don't like is that we went back didn't we, I don't know if you saw my thing to David where we report back on a fax, report every month +Yeah. +who is phoning. +Nicholas wanted to know who uses the phone +That's right. +so we report back. +David didn't like it because he was on there and so we went through saying that I have only the most important +It's not an issue for everybody else round the table +That's right. +except for those two. +Yeah. +But it's just worth bearing in mind that erm, as long as the senior people are quite comfortable they can get through to, to us if they need to, that they're not bound by the normal fax routine or whatever. +But they should know that anyway, or I made that point yesterday, so er th the point they quoted was that erm erm rang up the team and got told no you've gotta put it on a fax,find it hard to believe that that was if that was the manager on the phone but it's just important that the people on the team know who the senior managers are. +Mm. +That's all. +So it's worth reiterating, making sure each member of the team knows who the senior people are and the branches they're s they're operating. +And if necessary get the things typed up and pinned up, key senior personnel at the branches. +Put a branch organizations chart up. +Okay er Phil I'll need to see you about erm organizing the unit party. +We haven't done unit regionalization by the way, you skipped that. +You haven't done +Oh I know that, I know but I'm +Oh right. +waiting until after Kevin 's been in and gone erm cos, cos it'll, I don't wanna stop half way through. +Oh right. +Erm +What's he coming in for? +That's what I thought, it's not on the +Talking about introducers, right. +That's the participants that I've got, do you wanna have a check of it, see if there's anybody that's been missed off. +I thought th yeah I thought this was a fair old crowd anyway. +Yeah well hopefully there won't be anybody that missed off but +Have I've got a com er s sort of complaint +Take it away +I er +I thought it was the way you were sitting Bob +from erm Andy there's a party and a units party but he doesn't know anything about a units party. +the wrong team hasn't he? +So I said, so I said it's not fully delivered yet. +But are we gonna do something? +No listen we don't, I need to speak to Chris about it but erm is Andy on that list? +Andy wouldn't be from +There's a couple of 's people on there. +There's a lot of people here who have left as well but er +Well once they've got the valuations in and switches and it's not till June +No well we might well it might be that we say we want a combined party, I don't know, +what the hell does he have to do with it? +write the veto +Oh right. +We'll blackball him for a start +playing so, it'll be a bit like, it'll be like the party sort of Erm, talking about erm parties and things, erm we ought to have a social event for client services I think, certainly sooner rather than later, particularly with regionalization looming. +Just wondered if we could get something organized, don't know what to do. +But I thought that erm barn dance or something like that would be favourite cos it's not too expensive and it's something that everybody can muck in on. +Any other good ideas? +Get it done quite cheaply in, in Harlow. +Presumably we, are we charging staff for this? +Are we charging staff for it? +We won't have to pay for it will we? +Or are we getting it out of our own budget? +No I think we'll have to charge something. +Well I +Well in that case +I can probably get something towards it but but not +Well in that case I think the cheapest cheapest alternative yeah is erm, if you're gonna do er something like that, would be a barn dance in the hall down Edinburgh Way er which you get quite cheap +Oh +it's about hundred and fifty quid. +no the football team organized a disco there. +I I know a barn dance caller who's recently offered his services. +Oh right, is that from Surrey? +Yeah but I don't know what what he'd charge for coming up. +Yeah, okay. +Can we +But I could ring +can we explore that? +Mm. +And see if we get something set up, probably I think May would be favourite wouldn't it? +It's not too far away and it's not too close to the, the changes and some of the announcements will be out by then. +Kevin's just arrived so I'll go and get Kevin in, erm copy of what was broadly speaking agreed of which Phil's already got a copy anyway. +So's everybody else I think. +Yeah oh have you? +Oh right, oh sorry about that. +Has it changed at all? +Sorry? +No. +Hasn't changed at all? +No. +Yeah Wednesday the twenty first we're it's Tuesday evening +Yeah. +Right now well all I, I ex I knew that you were having meetings about it so really all, all I need you to do is actually get this validated by your group and if there were any change significant changes you wanted to make then to come back to me and David with that those suggestions but erm it struck me that th the thing hangs together quite well. +Erm so, in principle we've agreed that schedule, er I'm waiting for erm Bob to sort V I out and the name erm as you may be aware erm Bob wants to call it client servicing and our view was that by and large it wasn't a question of having to have loads more different screens we just needed them in different areas and they could, they'd go to Louise to get where people were going to be and it's mostly about the R S six thousand for commission erm on which there are only about twenty of those anyway, twenty seven so I didn't really see that as being a major issue. +The only thing I said was about T S G and David said that + +Good idea really. +Yeah. +Even though you can't tell any difference after they've finished. +Yeah. +I see well it's convenient that it comes at the end of a week's holiday isn't it? +Pardon? +It means they all get an extra couple of days off on their holiday doesn't it? +No we do don't +You do. +Do you think they're all there then or are they all in at school? +Pardon? +Do you think they're all in at school? +No +No. +They're skiving. +They're all skiving are they they're all wagging off Lesley. +Well enjoy your tomorrow when you go back. +Where do we need for a Kids' County where are we after? +Pardon? +Where are we after the Kids' County you know what you rang up for in the first place? +Sorry talking to me and I'm totally Dennis McCarthy. +No it's not. +Who who's there heckling Lesley? +Er Philip and Andy. +Philip which one's your boyfriend then? +. +Philip? +Social injustice is brought on by an economic policy perpetuated by the Tories and their . +It is our duty the G M B to stop the decline in social injustice and its damage to the U K. +There have been many attacks on our society the trade used by taking our finances and yet, by their economic mistakes and profitization , we, the ordinary working people, pick up the bill. +They may have sacked the Chancellor but they're still committed to capitalism and economic policy which is diametrically opposed to any form of such a justice. +So as hey, the need for our welfare state, good health service, education, social housing and all the rest. +The labour trade union movement to meet the needs and that's of our people. +Congress, pick up your rulebooks and look at page seven,Clause nine Rule two. +It's all there to promote or support legislation especially in connection with the legal rights of trade unions, industrial, health, safety and welfare and social economic and social welfare. +Congress,need for this motion. +This is already happening. +it's for our people. +I second. +Motion two seven nine London Region to move. +Mr President. +Brian, before you start, no laughing this time, I couldn't stand it again. +Honestly. +I've been on tablets all night. +Alright, alright. +Brian , London Region moving motion two seven nine. +Mr President, other honoured guests. +This motion condemns rise in unemployment caused by the incompetent handling of the Tory government's economic policies and I ask for support of the T U C campaigns for the unemployed, but I would beg really that when we do campaign, the T U C gives us more than two days to notify us of rallies and meetings. +Like other unions we suffer from the severe loss of members due to unemployment and we are appalled at the devastation of family life when the breadwinner's been sha cast on the scrap heap and the behaviour of the government it throws whole communities into depravity without a chance of any hope for the future and their children. +Mining communities, the dock areas, Liverpool, all these people the only crime, the only crime they've ever committed is to stand up for their rights. +The unemployed are having their links with hope destroyed with the closure of some C A Bs due to government and local government cuts. +Unemployed centres are underfunded and closed, so the only hope left is us, the trade union movement. +I know some regions send messages out to their members who've just lost their jobs, expressing hope that they desire please stay with us, we can help ya. +This we must do, we've gotta help our unemployed members because some of those who are unemployed have been some of our best fighters and they're still in there fighting despite the fact they haven't their jobs. +We've gotta support these colleagues. +We must contact these people, we must build back the confidence to the unemployed, we've given these people who are unemployed our good training, we need their expertise to come back and fight again if we're gonna have any hope for the future. +Hopefully, we can if we can retain some membership, then obviously hopefully we can put some money to return to these unemployed centres and give the government what it needs, a good kick up the arse. +Do I get me tankard now? +I move. +Brian, have a cuppa tea. +Two seven nine formally seconded? +Thanks very much indeed. +Composite motion ten Unemployment and Work for Lancashire Region to move. +Yeah, no, if you, if you're supporting it colleague, we've not been taking support in all, all week and indeed I know how important it is and we'll, pardon? +No if it's thirty seconds for you, it's thirty seconds off somebody else colleague. +I'm sorry. +The only exception was yesterday in the debate on the Toxic Syndrome, that was the only exception I do apologize. +Mandy? +Amanda , Lancashire Region, proposing motion Unemployment and Benefits it's been composited. +Congress, president, this motion is calling for an economic policy that combats mass unemployment. +That is probably an impossible dream as far as this present government is concerned. +This evil and sadistic Tory government are responsible for destroying millions of jobs as a conscious policy and continue to pursue the toll with further deliberating tactics like V A T on fuel. +The government policy for creating jobs is to re-introduce slavery, working for benefits no-pay Britain. +This policy is back in the desk drawer at the moment, but it is clearly going to be placed back on the table, since the government is even considering charging thirty pound a night for N H S beds. +Workfare is about doing away with jobs, employers will want to substitute workfare for real jobs, reducing still further the number of people in work, increasing still further the poverty and misery suffered by millions in Britain today. +The government does not encourage investment in industry, even in training the workforce or providing a long-term investment bank. +The government fails to support industries that are of strategic importance to the economy like mining and ship building, no support for laying , yet when it comes to the Arthur Daleys, the unscrupulous employers, the get rich quick merchants, it coughs up the cash. +It proposes to provide these gangsters with subsidies in the form of free labour. +How long will, how low will this corrupt government stoop? +I move. +Thanks Mandy. +formally seconded? +Thanks very much. +Motion two eight three Workfare, London Region to move. +President, congress, Roy , moving motion two eight three Workfare. +The word workfare is a term we have imported from America, the America, where if you are unemployed, homeless, you're a scrounger, a drop-out a no-good, something less than human. +Therefore, if they, the unemployed, want help from the State they must pay back from that State with some form of work, because you can't have something for nothing, not in a capitalist market economy. +It will undermine the work ethic. +I say that philosophy is rubbish or to use the language of the shop floor, it's a load of bull. +Unemployment is not the fault of the individual worker, he she is the victim not the blame. +In Britain in nineteen ninety three we are hanging on to the remains of our welfare state by our fingertips. +It is being attacked daily by that real group of parasites, the Tory Party, the Tories will no doubt bring in workfare just as soon as they've softened up the wider public with their slavish friends in the media. +The tabloid press will publish stories of dole scroungers laying in bed all day, living the life of Riley on the dole, blaming the unemployed and making them feel guilty for a desperate plight. +Colleagues, the types of work that will be offered in an ac to the unemployed will be community work clearing rubbish from sites, cleaning public buildings and open spaces. +Jobs which should be done by full-time workers paid at proper rates of pay, real jobs to put back dignity into the lives of such, so many of the unemployed. +If you really want a market economy to work, then you pay workers decent rates of pay for their labours. +Yet we find our leading members of the Labour Party accepting the argument for some form of workfare. +There is a strong moral argument within the labour movement, that rejoke rejects workfare and other half-baked schemes which do not give a fair day's work for a real fair day's pay. +We want real jobs for real money. +This union along with the Labour Party should have no with the philosophy of workfare, it once and once and for all reject this philosophy and send it back to the bad old days of workhouses, parish guardians, the real Victorian values. +Colleagues, reject the ideas of workfare, make sure the ideas are not adopted by the Labour Party +Two eight three formally seconded? +Thanks very much. +Emergency motion number two Midland and East Coast Region. +Linda , Midlands and East Coast Region. +Emergency motion number two, Pit Review on Closures. +President, congress, I first pay tribute to the Women Against Pit Closure Group for their cour cour determination and yes, sheer bravery. +They stood up to be counted, to save their men's jobs, their community and their families' futures and I salute their courage and wish them well in their pit vigil. +Congress, this call review was a whitewash, the Tories underestimated the strength of public feeling against the pit closure programme. +In fact, the proposed mass redundancy in and around the mining industry was probably the straw that broke the camel's back for the British people. +I've never seen the President of the D T I look so harassed and frightened for his own future. +Did he perhaps realize maybe he's been set up as well? +The was once described this country as a lump of coal surrounded by fish which highlighted our two great natural assets, to which oil and natural gas has been added. +We have an energy-rich country and a massive trading balance, so why the hell are we importing electricity from France which I believe attracts the nuclear and importing coal from dubious sources and I have been told that some of that coal has been extracted by women and children, often in horrendously unsafe conditions. +We are now going ahead in burning of our finite natural gas resources like there is no tomorrow. +Congress, I'm not an economist, but none of this makes sense to me, relying on heavily subsidized coal imports leaves us wide open to be exploited. +When we shut our pits, the price of these coal imports will go up, a pit closure brings massive hardship in the surrounding communities. +Redundancy payments go towards paying off house mortgages, but these miners can't then sell up and move. +Little industrial units employing a handful of people working for peanuts is not the answer to mass redundancies anywhere. +There is a personal concern in all this for me, I ain't a miner, but I do work and represent G M B and Apex members working directly for British Coal. +We manufacture the conveyer belts that carry the lads to the face and bring the coal out. +Between six and ten years ago, there was a hundred and eighty pits in this country, yes a hundred and eighty pits, now we have a handful left and it has been leaked that all thirty one pits will still be closed within twelve months, done quietly and by the back door ignoring procedures and over the years this is what has been done. +Arthur Scargill, love him or loathe him, has been telling us but nobody listens. +Well we know that in our company by the jobs lost, we know that in the Midland region because it could be a loss of up to ten percent of our membership, six thousand members. +I took over a hundred members to the rally in Hyde Park, erm two thirds of my workforce, and it was magnificent to see all the trade unionists there, especially the G M B banners. +Some of my members were overwhelmed by the sheer numbers there and it brought a lump to my throat, but that's what it's all about, solidarity. +Now take note members of the press, when the Tory's paymasters, the big industrialists and the C B I start squealing, there's panic on the Tory benches. +The coal review did nowt for them either. +Sadly, mass closures and redundancies have become commonplace, it's no longer hitting the headlines, just a few small columns in the paper, so I ask you delegates, go back to your branches, raise the issue not just about coal but about all unemployment, chase up the media, write to your M P, especially the Tories, support the rallies and maybe a petition from this conference could be organized, but I say raise hell, give them no peace, one job loss is one too many and we ain't gonna accept redundancy in any of our sections without a bloody good fight. +So let's take the gloves off now, please support. +Well done Linda. +Is emergency motion two formally seconded? +Thank you very much. +I'll ask the General Secretary to reply to the Debate. +John General Secretary replying to the debate on jobs and recovery. +As you may have noticed other debates have attracted rather more publicity this week, but the theme of our congress is jobs and recovery because jobs and recovery is the most important issue for our members and for Britain. +Sometimes the comparisons between the performance of this country and the performance of other countries amazes me. +We're often told, including by government ministers, that we should follow the lead of Japan, to emulate their manufacturing methods and copy their working practices. +So how did Japan respond to the recession? +The Japanese government announced two spending packages amounting to over a hundred and ten billion pounds. +Public works programmes, new transport investment, house building investment and industry. +Japan's economic package reads like a resolution to a trade union conference. +So does Kenneth Clarke copy this example? +Does he hell! +He says the most important problem in the British economy is public borrowing and that Britain will make cuts in public spending. +The analysis is crazy, the reason why we have a public deficit is because three million people and more are out of work and paying no tax. +The best way to cut public borrowing is not to cut public investment, but to cut unemployment. +I trust that that will be the simple and single point which will be pressed very hard by the Labour Party in the economic debate in Parliament this afternoon. +The one certain thing is that workfare has no place in the economic policy of a civilized country. +That's why we urge you to support composite ten and motion two eight three. +Although I have to say that the implication in two eight three that Labour is flirting with workfare is misplaced, we've said some harsh things about the Party this week, but there is no possibility that I know of of the Labour Party supporting any form of workfare whatsoever. +Motion two seven nine makes very sensible proposals about how we might support unemployed members. +We would like to examine those ideas in more detail, and I hope that London will agree to refer so that the examination can take place. +So support composite eight, composite ten, motion two seven eight and motion two eight three with that qualification, emergency motion number two and let's campaign for any effective policy for jobs and recovery and not this nonsense that is served up every week from this silly government. +That's my response on behalf of the C E C. +Thanks very much indeed John, I propose to take the vote. +Composite eight has been accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Motion two seven eight has been accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Motion two seven nine as the General Secretary has indicated is asking for reference. +Does London agree? +Thanks very much Brian. +Composite number ten is being accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Motion two eight three has been accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +And the emergency motion number two is being accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Conference, Linda in moving emergency motion number two referred to pit closures as a disaster, but there are certainly even greater disasters of pit closures and in nineteen fifty one, forty two years ago, there was a disaster at Easington Colliery where eighty one pit men lost their lives. +More recently local trade unionists and many of the members of our organization in Easington decided that to commemorate the, the occasion, they would work to get a new trade union banner for the Easington Trade Union Council and that's the example and that's the reward of their particular work a magnificent tribute to those pit men that died eighty one years ago, er forty two years ago. +To mark the occasion Doctor David Jenkins, the Very Reverend Bishop of Durham, blessed the banner. +The Church and radicalism and radical thought don't always go hand-in-hand. +David as some colleagues will know is a member of the House of Lords and there isn't much radical thought in the House of Lords. +During this particular week, we've had a number of speakers, guest speakers at the rostrum and there'll be others that will follow the Reverend Jenkins to the rostrum but the working people of Durham and trade unionists and the miners in particular have very good cause to thank the Reverend David Jenkins. +During the miners strike you will recall he was tremendously supportive and outspoken and is still outspoken against this government's attack on working people. +The people of Durham as I say are very fortunate indeed. +Amongst all the speakers we've had here this week, I don't think that there's any of them more supportive to the trade union movement than the Very Reverend David Jenkins. +He's certainly amongst friends this morning, we're his friends and we ask him to address conference. +Thank you very much David. +Thank you very much Mr President and as you've been friendly enough to invite me and given me such a friendly welcome, I, I thought I ought to risk speaking to you as candidly as I can about what is going on in our country and our communities at the moment and whether by the end of the thing I continue your friend is another matter. +In my part of the world, which is north east England and especially County Durham, nobody much really believes all this talk about an industrial and economic recovery which will be so strong and so widespread that most people will be back in the sort of jobs they used to have, providing they get the necessary training. +In our part of the world we keep up the brave talk for the sake of the image of the region, so that there may be at least some inward investment and so that those industrialists, small business, training centres, local enterprises and cooperatives which are struggling so hard to make a go of it, will not be discouraged from at least having a go, but there isn't much hope and conviction really. +For one thing, the region is faced with a demoralizing example of great in er investments of human resources, skill and modern technology being simply thrown aside, as at Swan Hunter and in our coal mines. +For another thing, the region is one of the edge of things if I may so put it and that's why I'm down here I mean as, as I know when we're up there we're at the centre of things, but lots of people don't +it's all these odd ideas that go around in the barbaric south that's the trouble! +But there it is, and outside and foreign firms will put money in, especially if subsidized by temporary government measures, for as you know, public investment in private industry is judged to be ideologically correct, while public investment for public and community concerns is judged ideologically to be harmful, but the firms are interested in making money out of the region if I may so put it, not in sustaining world promotion and healthy living in the region. +One shift in the market and investment is withdrawn, firms close, production is transferred so it's dicy. +For another thing the most profitable processes today simply do not need large amounts of labour and is it seriously expected by the government that as long as we avoid being tied down by the social chapter, we shall become such a reservoir of cheap labour, that we shall become cheaper and more exploitable than the labour force in the Third World? +Is that the way we are to become competitive again? +So I have to ask has anyone, and I underline anyone, who talks about economic policies, recessions, recoveries and jobs, yet begun to face up to the way everything depends on growth as before and even more growth than before. +Yet we are in a very contradictory situation with regard to growth. +A small example of this, which we are perpetually living within the north east is the following. +When our locals assessed success story, the Nissan Plant, sells less cars, it's an economic threat and could become an economic disaster, when the plant sells more cars, it adds to the increase in number of cars on the roads which represents a pollution threat and contributes to a pollution disaster, let alone traffic problems of course. +It's as well to laugh and I'm, I'm especially able to encourage you because I being a Christian know you know that sin won't have dominion over you so that you needn't be solemn about it +but it is serious +and you see this contradiction is there, despite the fact that the factory and the company are actively concerned in restraining pollution. +They are responsible about their productive processes and they are responsible about the design of car engines and we are told that the market will find ways to deal with this, but surely it cannot, for after all the market is mindless, so it cannot take into account either the future or the needs and wishes of people other than those who have the purchasing power for immediate consumption. +So, well before we get on to any issues to do with the structural poverty of the Third World, maintained by the wealth extracting efforts and arrangements of our Western world, we can surely see why quite a few people do not really believe in recovery through economic growth and consumption and we need to ask whether we ought to want it anyway, but people in the Tory Party and in the Labour Party in the City with a capital C and the trade unions with a Capital T and a U go on talking as if our goal must be jobs and recovery in the same old way, technologized, computerized and skillerlized of course with strong dashes of management insights and so on +but in no way basically changed. +Are we never going to use our various collective skills, institutions and organizations, as well as our particular imaginations, insights and inventiveness to face up to this false prospectus, false prospectus we are trying to live by? +Now, I put it to you that it is obvious that we all know and suspect it is a false prospectus and that the sort of recovery it implies is just not on. +Our behaviour shows it, although our talk, discussion and our political agendas and conference agendas do not. +Look, I'm afraid, for example at yourselves, there we go +all you are contributing to the political debate in this country at the present moment is a quarrel about the trade union block vote in the affairs of the Labour Party. +The press therefore has a field day, the Labour Party is diverted and distracted and all the politicians have joined a family squabble on an alleged matter of vital principle, but it is all to do with power within the Party, so we are entirely diverted from the questions we ought to face but cannot face up to. +These are questions about what sort of growth in what sort of industry and commerce would actually be sharable in sustaining ways, not only in our own country, but across the world, but it is just too much of a challenge to face up to the question of how you get power to influence that. +So we stick to arguing about power within I say a party, and we do not get on about policies and programmes. +Mind you, you in the trade unions and in the Labour Party are no worse than anyone else. +That's where Christianity comes in again actually solidarity +we go on hoping and fighting and imagining, despite whatever goes wrong with anybody but the Tory Party is diverting itself with internal feuds and in focusing attention on whether Mr Major will remain Prime Minister or not and this is presumably so that they may ignore the real issues of how to the get the country onto some shared basis of consensus, trust and pragmatic politics which would give our society a chance of facing up to questions of economics, politics, pollution and living together in community in the sort of world we've actually got. +Now just in case you think I'm sinking into the role of a self-righteous preacher, who enjoys telling other people off about their sins, so that he doesn't have to bother about his own, +and I should warn you that once I was asked to go to a, a series of lectures in a certain cathedral on the seven deadly sins, because the Canon who invited me said he wanted a married man who was good on lust! +Against it that is +I must add in all honesty and so we must face up to things that the churches at any rate in their public and visible life are in just the same state. +In my own turfs we are quarrelling among ourselves with intense energy about whether women can be ordained priests, about who is more Catholic than their neighbour and about a whole host of internal issues, because we apparently have neither the grace nor the guts to face up to the real issues which are the business of the Church in the current world. +You know issues such as the credibility of God, the resources available for neighbourliness of hope and the help that is available from religious sources to overcome misery in our society, prime in our neighbourhood and apathy and indifference all round. +In our various parties, organizations and institutions therefore we urgently need to recognize that most of our programmes, not least the programmes of our conferences and synods if I may leave you together in sin brothers and sisters +are most of the programmes are really to do I would say with displacement activities rather than replacement activities. +That is to say we are, we all need renewal and new ideas, but we stick to old quarrels and re-run old battles because we don't know how to face up to the real problems at the present, nor to find ways of working together for a worthwhile future. +Of course, we cannot just get out of the routines and struggles and problems we are already engaged in. +It's important for instance to guard safety at work. +You have to try and improve trading skills and efficiency and it is vital to maintain organized groups of women and men who are committed to fighting locally and at all levels for ordinary decent decency and simple justice in the way people are treated of course, but we have got also to find ways of getting together to face those problems no one knows how to solve. +Our future requires that we focus our images on finding ways forward to a possible, tolerable and sharable society instead of wasting our time quarrelling with our allies and colleagues. +If we cannot even face the present, of course we cannot build the future. +Let me therefore suggest three things I am clear we ought to bother about. +Pragmatic coalitions, collaborative democracy and local communities. +That sounds splendid I'm sure when translated into management jargon, but let, but let me repeat it. +Pragmatic coalitions, collaborative democracy and local communities. +My rule is when skating on thin ice move fast, so I shall get +Pragmatic coalitions. +Our present party system and the way it works in elections has passed from being nearly useless to being pretty dangerous. +It is obvious that the government doesn't know how to respond to the messes it has partly created and partly suffers from. +Yet no one stops it or persuades it to change its mind. +We have already had reference this morning to the outcry against the handling of, of the mine closures and it was immense, the case was made by the Parliamentary Success er Select Committee for some serious thinking about energy policy for the future, yet the government did not think again, the political debate was at the level of whether Mr Heseltine would remain in power and nothing was changed. +There was in other words an immense amount of political activity with absolutely no result and the details of that already has been referred to in moving energy both erm in emergency number two, so I can make, need make no reference, more reference to it, but we have left ourselves surely, totally dependent in a short future from outside the country on our energy. +Where shall we go then? +What is that to do with investing in enterprise? +Again, whatever the problems about education they are clearly great. +How can you develop schools for children and curricula for developing intellectual, social and personal schools skills, in collaboration with parents, teachers and pupils if those in power neither consult nor trust, nor show any signs of respecting the opinions of those persons most intimately involved. +Yet the plans go ahead relentlessly and so on. +There seems no readiness in our government to listen and learn for argument, no capacity for trust and no ability to face the facts which include the vital issues morale and motivation, ways of running things which you simply can't put down to cost accountants, but which is absolutely essential to do with solidarity and caring and so on to make things actually work, and as for economics, whenever econor economy from the Germans, upwards or downwards so to speak, is in trouble the future is clearly frightening isn't it? +But the political paralysis continues, the Labour Party and the unions quarrel and the notion of coalition is constantly repudiated. +Now, I would say how stupid can we get? +Have we become so depressed about any real prospect of newness that we've decided to enjoy our chains, masochistically dwelling on our miseries and inadequacies? +Is it beyond the wit, guts and grace of ordinary men and women to re-assemble in fresher alliances on the basis of fresh thinking? +Across parties, across ideologies and fixed ideas, to collaborate for a real change which surely must come. +The task for collaborative coalitions is clear, firstly get rid of the Tory government. +I think they would be relieved. +They obviously need a rest +and further, and this is not meant to be a joke, in my own experience, if they get time to think quietly and realistically, I believe a whole lot of decent Conservatives who used to think pragmatically, organically and with respect for local communities, would emerge to contribute to a coalition for the future over against the ideological block that seems to think we use people to make money, instead of making money to serve people and their communities. +Now coalition which changed the face of party politics would stimulate fresh approaches to our problems. +It is surely obvious that we cannot go on as we are as we pollute the world and as poverty increases, along with violence, vandalism and random destruction, more of it at Gateshead last night apparently. +We have immense technological and communication resources. +If we had to think and had to think together we would surely find ways forward. +We could be aiming our political energies towards facing the real issues. +We could stop pretending that some of us have solutions which are vastly and obviously superior to others, when we all know really that our solutions are not good enough, and in this way you would come together in creative activity instead of fragmenting into ever more divisive and destructive activities which are technically called displacement from one another +A lot to learn from animals including the fact that animals can't actually be bestial! +That wasn't in the text of course. +So, seeking pragmatic coalitions needs to be combined with a new commitment to collaborative democracy. +Centralized government, Whitehall as the founder of all regulation and one party in perpetual power is an obvious recipe for incompetence, even more than it is for tyranny, although bureaucratic tyranny and arrogant assumptions of having no need to listen do produce threats of tyranny. +We need to restore a whole range of intermediate institutions, unions come in here as do professional organizations, healthy, local democratic government and voluntary and charitable bodies, not to mention the churches. +Such bodies are needed to break up centralized power to encourage participation and restore morale to ordinary people by convincing them that they do count, that they are listened to and that they can participate. +In short, restoring ordinary people as part of the we who run things, rather than the them for obstacles to be regulated, managed, I fear even duped and certainly simply left out, and the chief place to focus our search for pragmatic coalitions and cooperative democracy must be in our local communities. +That is where people live and that is where we must support one another in enduring the present, while we imagine better things, fight for better things and gradually achieve better things. +I am personally impressed and encouraged by what is going on in some of the hardest hit areas in my part of the world and by a series of what you might call chance accident, we've actually got a sign on it on the platform here. +Were you to turn over that banner which is I think magnificently designed, you would find the other side is entirely about international connections between workers and various groups and so on, so it's got the international, the wider version and I'm delighted to to know that you have here, you I understand that the G M B is perhaps the only body which has the nearest thing to a formal alliance with the trade union in Germany I mean this is tremendous. +This is where the future lies however you have to deal with the particular problems of Maastricht and all the rest and on this side, and it really was very moving that, in a way by chance, but you know again I believe I think sometimes God is in you better of course +When I went to what was in effect not merely the memorial of the fifty aft after fifty two years of the people, but of course really the funeral service of the pit and when I went to that here was the chance to dedicate that also, we did it actually at the Memorial Garden where all the pit people are buried and that is right you see, picking up out of the past not sticking in the past, and arranging it as you might say as in that banner to move on into the future. +So I, I was very moved to find that this has arrived and I don't think it's romantic nonsense, I think it is related to the business of getting people together locally. +People are realizing that you just cannot expect much of them and that one way of improving local lives is to get together in local communities and groups and participating wider area networks and in such coalitions of people,th th they manage to keep some sort of community spirit and activity going. +They find new ways of sharing what resources there are, whether collaborating in local policing or working with health authorities or whatever it is and I think they form the base for renewal of politics because we have to recreate politics for localities upwards and here, just finally chancing my arm, I must just frankly say that I am not clear that over-large amalgamations of unions will be much more helpful than over-centralized government bureaucracies. +One of the advantages of not knowing too much about things is that you can keep sacred cows in the without noticing. +Of course we have the additional complication that the over- large government bureaucracy's at present run by a political party which seems to have given up thinking about anything much other than staying in power and I know and hope that you will be part of thinking about much more than that, but still even with a large union, you could regulate concentrate on stimulating the grass roots and then on building upwards. +Anyway, I was asked by the organizers to contribute to the debate on jobs, recovery and communities. +I have done my best. +I hope it does not encourage you to do your worst! +But rather to join in the search for new ways forward for the common future of our society and I suggest you might do worse than try a few committees and working groups on pragmatic coalitions, collaborative democracy and local community. +Thank you. +Thank you very much indeed. +You did say er, Bishop that you were going to be frank and you certainly turned a few corners there for us to think about. +Thanks very much indeed. +Er colleagues rule forty five Workplace Representatives motion eighty three to be moved by the Northern Region. +President, congress, Tom Northern Region, moving motion eighty three. +Colleagues, workers' unity is the only force which protects working people against exploitation by unscrupulous employers. +Yet in almost every workplace in Britain we all know there are people who are willing to receive all the benefits of working in a trade union workplace, but too unknown to their colleagues, refuse to pay the costs. +Such people colleagues are usually the first to voice their concerns, first to criticize union officials, yet secretly at the end of each week, their pay packet shows no deductions for trade union fees. +If trade union solidarity is to mean anything, it must mean that each and every worker sharing equally in the benefit of members and paid equally for the service. +Freeloading in our society is common place, however in the G M B organization built upon the principles of justice, it is a duty to cut out all such freeloading. +Congress, this motion would make the rulebook obligation for all shop stewards to honour that duty and to freeload members not just from the exploitation of employers, but also the exploitation of freeloading. +Colleagues, I move. +Thanks very much. +Is that formally seconded? +Formally seconded? +Thanks very much. +I now call Colin with the C E C are seeking reference. +Colin to put C E C point of view. +Pardon? +Yes. +Yes, we're doing eighty three at the moment Colin. +Just eighty three. +on motion eighty three the C E C agreed that membership +Yeah. +That membership consolidation is important, but with check-off and other payment methods and the issue of computer printed cards valid for two years, we feel that there are alternatives and better methods to investigate. +in order to allow us to do that examination, I make a recommendation on such erm checking. +Thank you. +Thanks Colin. +Does the Northern Region accept reference? +Yes, Conference agree? +Thanks very much. +report Mick . + +I know but erm if I don't see I'm gonna crack. +Ah. +Right. +organize you for doing that scan. +Mhm. +See what's going on. +That's the results about ten minutes ago, an hour ago. +Yeah. +And that's clear as well. +So +There's obviously something not right, Doctor . +Aye there's something wrong. +working right. +Where will I go for the scan? +Er I don't know. +I need to phone down, see if they've got a time for you today. +Mhm.. +You still ? +Aye.. +Do your loft up. +We can, it's alright up there. +I've got an auntie that lives up there. +and she hates it. +She wants to go back to . +I don't to be quite honest I don't think there's anything left of . +She doesn't like it in that new place . +No no. +And she's getting the nurses up. +Is she giving them a hard time? +Giving them a hard time down there. +Is she? +Aha. +Who's that? +My Aunty Peggy . +My dad's sister. +I was in there once but +She just went after he daughter. +Her daughter died of cancer and then a year later her +Oh right. +husband died of cancer and she just . +Now even if I'm only weeks pregnant this'll show? +Aye? +If you're weeks pregnant, that would have shown. +It would have shown? +Aye. +Oh aye. +So I'm definitely not pregnant? +Definitely not pregnant. +My body's just dying. +. +You mean I'm not heading for the end of me. +four weeks, would have shown up on that. +Was it May you changed my pill wasn't it? +Mhm. +Aye I mean it +might be that there could be something as simple as that that's +Mhm. +doing it. +Could be something as simple as that. +sixty two. +Right. +Now it was Marvelon and I put you on to +No it wasn't Marvelon it was that Trin +Trin +Aye. +Trinordiol. +Mhm. +Trinordiol. +And now it's Norimin. +So it could It might just be that that's causing the problem. +But we'll get you checked out. +Now see if we get whether I can get us fitted in. +Mm right. +Might manage it today. +Mm. +Margaret, they couldn't give me on just now. +Mhm. +Can we phone you this afternoon +Aye. +as long as we've got your phone number. +Mhm. +Should I take that with me? +brought this back. +You hold on to that. +Right. +Right. +Er and we've got your new phone number. +Aye. +Got that. +And we'll give you a phone as soon as they get back to us. +And if they can do it this afternoon or tomorrow morning, +Aye. +we'll let you know right away. +It shouldn't be too long? +It should Oh no it shouldn't be Hopefully within +. +I know. +Yeah. +Right thanks. +Right cheerio now. + +My first memories of Walsall Airport were when Walsall Flying Club was in being before World War Two. +If you look from towards , which was a large house in a clump of trees, at the far side was a pavilion which was the clubhouse, they used to hold air displays and pleasure flights, also they had commercial flights. +I've seen them towing across the sky with Beecham's Pills written on them er it was a familiar sight in Walsall at the time, and also sometimes they had a plane sky-writing and they used to write Rinso in smoke in the sky. +The club's planes were usually Tiger Moths in the main, and as I remember the main airport building adjacent to the main road, pre war, were building Swallow side-cars for motorbikes. +Soon after the war started Helliwells Aircrafters, it was known, started an operation for the repair and rebuilding of aircraft for the RAF. +The types which were Boston Fighter Bombers and Harvard Trainers, both were American planes. +Peter was the test pilot used to be testing the Harvards over Walsall, and the engines used to make noises like angry wasps which was Walsall people became to know very well. +I left school in 1942 and got a job at the airport, which at the times we were living in always something exciting seemed to be happening. +Well I remember an Oxford aircraft over-flying the airfield and crashing in blocking the lane and going into the hedge on the other side, into Gingers Yard. +Billingham Woolwork we used to get entertainment nearly every lunchtime in the canteen, sometimes it was a film or live acts, comics and singers and one of the workers named Haydon , formed a small band which he call Butch Blood and the Boston Bashers. +Who did this entertainment, was it the workers themselves or did they ? +No they used to have organized ENSA concerts and er such like and er, when the Americans started arriving in England in large numbers ready for D Day, the temporary placement depot at Lichfield was a dispersal unit for soldiers sent there. +They sent their big band for a show and it was a really memorable sound as they had fellas on the way over to join Glen in Europe. +An American army sergeant arrived at the airport one day who befriended me and he was in charge of an artillery spotting plane called the Piper Cub which they gave a small corner of the airfield to. +He came in one afternoon and started painting black and white stripes round the fuselage and wings, when asked the reason for this he said it was a new allied marking. +The next day both he and his plane were gone and with hundreds of planes going over, the next morning D Day had begun. +Later in the year, two U S A Thunderbolt Fighters landed after a daylight sortie over France, they were painted in the usual drab green camouflage colour and both had a pink and red glamour girl on the side about twenty feet long, typical of the Yanks. +One afternoon a flying fortress which had come off worse on the mission over Germany tried to land at Walsall, which was much too small to take an aircraft of this size, and the girl in the control box had to find, fire a warning vary light and radio to send him off to Castle Bromwich which was much bigger in those days er it was an airport to take an aircraft the size of the Flying Fortress that's about it up until here I've written +Oh right. +What was your job? +What did you do? +I was only a lad, I was er a messenger boy on the loading deck and I used to have to go down to at Beskett and fetch parts for the planes and er plates, aluminium plates, to be normalized which was a treatment when they put them into the vats and I had to fetch the films as well, from the house that used to be a warehouse for films over in er in by the beacon, great bar! +Films what were those for, what ? +They were for the entertainment of the workers in their lunch break er, it wasn't really much of a job but er, I kept applying to go onto the floor to actually work on the aircraft but they, they wouldn't sort of er, I was needed too much in the receiving departments so in the end I left. +How would these damaged planes used to arrive at the airport? +Did they come by road or ? +Well some of them came by road and RAF trucks, the fuselages, and then there were all they started at the top of the airfield in the old flying club pavilion, and then they were er stripped down and stuff was taken off them, checked out, for airworthiness to see whether it was ready to go back on the planes, and then they came down to the back of the top hanger which was then they were all down to the skeleton of the aircraft and they started rebuilding them again like, there were engine shops and the place at the bottom hanger where they used to make the Swallow side-cars was the spraying and where they completed the aircraft. +Can you tell me about the buildings that were around the airport? +Yes +Tell me what fronted the main road first. +Yes the they were much the same as they are now but er, of course the one nearest was the er spraying hanger, that's where they used to build the Swallow side-cars, the main office building there's a large hanger with large sliding doors at the back of there which used to house the erm experimental department for the Harvard Aircraft and erm they used to operate the flight gang from there getting the planes ready to go up to be actually tested, and then the next hanger up was very much er starting from scratch and finishing the aircraft structurally you know. +They had an in, an in and out shop of where they used to recondition the engines er and er I that's about all er. +What sort of runway was it? +There were, there was, there wasn't any runway it was just a grass airfield as there was a lot of them in those days erm this, this is why they, they couldn't get any aircraft of any size in there you see, this is why some of them used to overshoot if they got twin engines before the war erm +About how many people were employed there would you say at this time? +Oh hundreds I would think, all of three hundred people. +Were men and women involved in this ? +Oh yes oh yes working on the aircraft as well. +Mm was that all they actually did during those war years there just repairing the aircraft +That's right yes yes cos +and putting them back into service? +motorcycle side-cars were very much a luxury trade you see. +It was totally devoted to war work. +Erm they er as airfields had to be protected they build some pillboxes, country pillboxes for the Home Guard at strategic points +I was going to ask you about security +and also the Home Guard or the army were in the house at the far side of the airport which was called Aldridge Lodge they were very much in there the erm +Where there ever any breaches of security? +Oh no no, it was really a happy-go-lucky time you, you had to be alive in those days to appreciate it, it, people sort of got together and it, it's a different attitude to life today er much more friendly people there and they, we all worked together we all pulled together to defeat Hitler this, this was the thing in those days. +Were women involved in the work there as well? +Yes, yes, yes and +What sort of things would they have done? +Well they, they were er helping the electricians and er but they were er they weren't so technically involved as perhaps they would be today. +They were very much sort of in an assistance capi capacity if you can understand. +Erm how types of craftsmen were employed there to do things? +Well there were electricians there were carpenters, the carpenters were into directly involved with building aircraft but they used to create the engines and make engine stands such things and do maintenance work around. +There were engine fitters, electricians, riggers and er course there were sheet metal workers as well working in aluminium and pop rivets er there was er also a government inspection department and a works inspection department and er things and da the Air Ministry had to be very up to scratch you know erm +Did they work through the night as well, was it shiftwork there? +Not as I remember no funnily enough but they used to have people who, who went out to work at different airports after the planes had gone out they used to have gangs that went out to Perton and er we used to draw equipment from er the maintenance un RAF maintenance unit at Stafford things used to come from there. +What did these gangs go out to Perton for, what was that all about? +Well after the, the aircraft had actually er left the airport to go, be handed back to the RAF they said sometimes had to be serviced or final adjustments made and that's what they used to go out there for but erm Helliwells was ver it was still, all through the war it was Helliwells aircraft they used to have their own lorries and everything and they used to erm, be under the auspices of the Air Ministry but it was very much a private company. +You mention test flights er +Yes yes +was there just one test pilot or +Yeah well there was one main test pilot that's right and other people like, who used to be an instrument gang as well, well I do know this fella Cyril he was a dental mechanic in Walsall before the war and he came in there and he was an instrument mechanic and he used, he used to go up with the test pilot to actually test the instruments in the other compartments in the plane or cockpits just to see how they were reacting under operational conditions. +He subsequently er went to work at the Berlick in latter years and, and this man was just sweeping-up at the Berlick and I couldn't believe it cos he was so high up in the technology in the war and he'd be a dental mechanic and he'd come down to just being a sweeper-up, and he used to show me the pay packets he'd got in the war and you know it was fantastic money even, even by today's standards this is going back fifteen years +What did he used to earn and how did it compare with ? +Well he showed me packets thirty five and forty pounds a week which then those days was utterly fantastic money. +And what would an ordinary person have been earning at Helliwells? +Well in the war five pounds a week was extraordinary money, cos they used to say a fella had got a good job if he was getting five pounds a week in those days, so that when I started work first I, I was getting fifteen shillings a week, so you can understand that seventy five pence today, at fourteen. +I went to the Bluecoat School in Walsall and they erm they used to run a A T C wing in there which later to belonged to and they they brought this Hawker Demon in, which was a plane into the playground for the instruction of the A T C fellas and the kids all ripped the canvas off it for souvenirs and it was down to a skeleton in no time +You mentioned that you used to have to go to Helliwells down at Beskett +Beskett yeah yeah +erm what was the set-up there? +They, they used to build wings for the, they had er all pop riveters and they used to b build wings for the planes that finally came up to the airport down there and erm it was very much a structural set-up as I say I used to have to take plates down there from the airport to be normalized, it was er a sort of softening treatment for aluminium and made them easier to shape and rivet them onto the main fuselage, but they, they used to make Harvard wings and cowls, engine cowls, for the Bostons and Havocs they weren't the one type of Boston was a fighter bomber and another one it had the front navigator's position cut out and they used to have a search light put in there which they used to call +Turbin lights and they were for use of coastal command of the RAF first searchlighting for submarines, looking for submarines, the er the Harvards were very much trained as some of them came in from the Navy they were used for training landing of pilots on aircraft carriers, and they had hooks underneath you know the er they were a very good trainer they were still used today, but when we used to go and see films at the pictures they used to use them a lot as Japanese aircraft because they looked alike, and they used to use them as zeros in the American films these Harvard trainers, er and but like as I said they had a experimental department at Helliwells and they used to try out various things to see if they could improve on the structure or the instrumentation things like that +Were there any parts of er of the complex that were out of bounds sort of top secret work going on or anything like that? +Well no not really because erm it, it was a private company as you can understand er, I can I can't really explain it everyone seemed to be pulling together you know that was the last thing you thought of, fifth columnists, things like that although it was they used to er, every now and again they used to send government national service officers round to look at the personnel and the structure of the working and if they thought anybody was superfluous to requirements they'd get the papers soon after to go into the army or the services yeah, yeah, that is true and that happened, used to happen in factories all round the area, it was called the Essential Works Order. +Was there erm a canteen there or facilities for you? +Yes, yes that's where they used to have the shows in the lunchtime they had very good er food arrangements and facilities. +We used to go up there for our breaks as well morning and afternoon and they used to have dances sometimes in the evening. +What was the food like? +Cos it was sort of rationing at that time. +That's right yes oh we used to get sausages with bread in it and potatoes mainly you know, greens and things like that were the staple diet but they, they used to get rations apart from people's personal rations being on war work if you can understand. +So you were well looked after. +Oh yes yes very much so. +You mentioned er you had a friend that worked at the, the bomb dump at Lindley. +That's right +Can you tell me anything about that? +It, well nothing really in depth but there was erm something else I was going to tell you. +As I had to go to Beskett this young woman had not long been married and she always used to ask me to call at her house in Palfrey, cos I used to go on a bike not in a van, on a carrier bike, she used to ask me to call at her house in Palfrey to see if there were any mail from her husband and he was, there sometimes was sometimes there wasn't nothing you know that he'd written and er one day I'd got back and er she was all in tears and er he, he had been killed in France and I was glad I didn't have to be the harbinger of the times you know she still lives in Palfrey now Mrs yeah. +This, this bomb dump it was a RAF place was it? +Yes, yes, yeah, but they did have civilians working there but I don't know where they used to ferry the bombs out to but I do believe they used to carry detonators and everything down there you know. +They were just stored in the caverns +That's right yeah, yeah, yeah but er cos I remember the caverns from before the war when I was in the Cubs. +I was in the central Cubs and we used to go up there to lime pits and round Lingley Woods you know on days out tracking and all that sort of thing. +Did you ever go down the caverns? +No, no I've never been down and er they've always been full of water whenever I've been up around there. +Did they have problems with keeping the water out during the time they were storing the +Well as I understand they must have had pumps down there or something to or something to keep them dry because er +Were you in any sort of A R P unit or anything like that during the war years? +Er I, I was a messenger for a time for the er, we lived in Lane and I was a messenger for a time with the erm A R P headquarters in Drive, now when my uncle got married and he had two children and I'd, they were issuing gas masks and I had to go down and fetch a gas mask for his daughter and they were great big ones that used to envelope the whole babies with a bellows on the side that the mothers used to have to pump when they were in them, thank goodness we never had to use them and erm +What sort of a set-up was it in Lane the A R P? +Oh Drive +Drive, sorry. +Well it was a large double-fronted house and it was sand-bagged all round and there were tables and to er, administer, you know, wardens in the unevent of air raids which they used to do and they used to patrol the streets looking for lights to see if pe my nan actually got fined once cos she, she event inadvertently went into a room and put the light on and forgot she'd left the curtains open and an air raid warden happened to be around she, she got hauled into court and fined five pounds for that, er she er I, I once I was just thinking the other day just telling a friend of mine, they had an actual practice air raid once and in some old buildings in the Burchells and we as kids had to go and lie in there and wait till we'd got a tag on and what would happen to us a label and they took us to the first aid post in, an ambulance came and picked us up on a stretcher and took us to the first aid post in Road. +We used to have dress rehearsal, some, I think I got mustard gas burns as well I was supposed to have on my arm er +Did this er, going back to Helliwells again, repairing of the aircraft, did that cease when the war finished or did it continue for a time afterwards? +It, it, it just went on for a lit a short time afterwards but er, but when the war ended course things, some things changed pretty rapidly as you can appreciate but, but by this time I, I was working for Ellwells then on long distance transport and we used to have to go and fetch tractors or bulldozers that had got armour plating on from Dagenham docks and bring them up here and start selling them to civic contractors and the, the Americans were selling a lot of equipment as well at end of the war, and I saw money made overnight like, people were buying the lorries and putting them on the road you know for work and transport firms and all that and they were getting some of them for next to nothing +So Helliwells were involved in this? +Not really no, I was working for another firm by this time. +We, I used to move around a lot on those days as you could do really speaking because I wasn't old enough to be under the Essential Works Order you see, and er I was by the time I went into the army it was 1946 so er the war was over. +Yeah tell me the sequence of your jobs then, you started off you were a messenger at Helliwells and then what did you do? +Helliwells yeah +Yes then what did you do after that? +Well I went to, erm they wouldn't let me go to work on the aircraft so I left and I went to work and the Walsall Electric Company, it was within Walsall and I was there when V E day happened and er a pal of mine said he knew where I could get this job and oh it was travelling about which I enjoyed and er I, I went then to work for Elwells I was there until I went in the army, but they were very much heavy transport and in those days the opencast mining started happening as well and we were taking diggers about bulldozers and tractors, scrapers for the opencast mining and I remember, in the bad winter of forty-seven, they, they took up a big part of Park, trees and everything and they never found a bit of coal and yet when started levelling off at Darleston, for Bentley Garden Village as it was then called, er they were getting coal out and people were going up with prams, barrows and everything and fetching it all out it was only being levelled for building work, and fetching coal, natural coal off Bentley Common the erm I've wandering off away from the airport a bit haven't I? +Tell me about V E day. +Yes, I was working at Walsall airport er Walsall electrics, sorry, at the time and er I've been out to the pictures I, with a couple of friends and er I got home this particular evening and I put the late night dance music on on the radio and they, they interrupted the programme to tell us that er Germany had accepted unconditional surrender and the war was over. +Well, my gran had told me that she'd gone down to see her friends who'd get the Brown Lion after them by this time and er I decided to go down and tell them as I could see if they hadn't got the radio on they wouldn't have known so as I walked from Burchells down Road I could see doors throwing open lights were coming on, people were coming out in the street and dancing and I got round down to the Brown Lion and it was all in darkness, and I rang the bell on the side door and I heard a few bumps and bangs and Mr who'd kept it then came to the door, and I said do you know the war's over and er he said oh no come on in that's w now his son was a prisoner of war and they had been, he'd continually tried to escape so much that he had his photograph taken in the Sunday paper, the, the Germans had had kept chaining him to the wall and other prisoners, other soldiers had got these photographs of him and smuggled them out and got them back to England, to the nearest papers, and er he he'd said to my nan cos he knew she'd always worked behind the bar, he said will you serve if I open the pub now, which was about eleven o'clock at night and she said yes of course, and the they opened the Brown Lion at about eleven o'clock at night in next to no time the place was full of people drinking, celebrating and of course the next day was really it. +I remember going down to the bridge in Walsall and a sailor climbed the old clock and tied his collar around it and a soldier got up and put his hat on and an airman got up and put his tie with a red, white and blue rosette on it, around the arms of the old clock and people were loving and kissing everywhere, and oh it was really you had to be alive to appreciate it. +After, after the years of hardship and loss and then ev everything came as a relief, course we were still at war with the Japanese and people were still in Burma, our soldiers were still in Burma fighting the Japanese, but having said that the main issue was over and it wasn't long after the Americans dropped the atomic bomb and of course, I always thought they had to really or else the Japanese would still be fighting now the er they had special dances in the Town Hall for the V E Day and the Americans who did a a jitterbug contest and er I always remember my friend and his sister, who was English, they actually won it against the Yanks he er +Did the Americans have a lot to do with Walsall ? +Oh yes, yes, they even had like they used to have savings' weeks er salute the soldier week, they used to have promotions for National Savings you see and we used to get so much money or where they had a bid thermometer on the car park in Street which is now the extension of the Gala Baths and they used to show how much savings had been put in they used to have targets for people, to put the National Savings in, they used to have an Anglo-American friendship week. +What was that exactly? +Well they used to ask you to invite the e actually invite the American soldiers into your homes and my friend in Chuckery a couple of years ago, I was visiting him one Sunday lunch and a knock came to his door and he went and it was a guy who came over to see, his mum is now dead, but he, he come over he remembered him from the war. +He was stationed in an old chapel in Chuckery because the Americans once they'd started they were putting them everywhere or anywhere they could just get to be with them before V Day they were even in little chapels, churches, outhouses anywhere they could possibly and there were guns and bits of trucks on every spot of land where they could get them the er, I'm getting out of context I was just thinking about a tank, a First World War tank that they used to have those as well in the field gun in the er arboretum which were disappeared soon after the war they went for scrap and they came and they used, people used to have a lot of wrought iron railings as well they took those as well they came along with burners and went off to the war effort, but er like I say the Americans and of course as kids they were very generous with kids and we absolutely loved them. +They used to give us gum and sweets everything and the, they sometimes, the military police they used to come down town and they'd be after deserters from Lichfield and +Is that where the Americans were stationed? +That's right the tenth replacement depot in Lichfield and they used to come round to Walsall looking for absentees and deserters and they there was actually a shooting match in Street the MPs started firing the guns at these fellas who'd gone absent without leave, and, but as I understand I remember at the time there was a lot of racism in America then and they, they picked these coloured fellas up and apparently the C O at Lichfield was very much a southern colonel and he was a racist and they used to chain these coloured guys up behind the trucks and make them walk all the way back to Lichfield behind the trucks driving the trucks at walking pace and I understand there was a, a salver, a commemorative salver in the Town Hall to be presented to him, and some an MP in the Council he were looking for this colonel, but as I understand he was court-martialled after the war for racism and so I don't think he'd be wanting, wanted to be connected with Walsall any more, so but this was +What was his name do you remember it? +Colonel with a K the this band, they used to, that they had from the tenth replacement depot used to come down and play at the Town Hall, and they they like I said before they were fellas on the way to join Glen the absolute ultimate musicians of America and it was why I'm still today erm I've got a big collection of jazz records and have always been interested in the big band sound. +It must have been quite exciting to hear them. +Oh yes it was, very much so. +They were brilliant times to live in he then me uncle Ed come on leave, from France, yeah I had a look at his rifle he used to bring all his equipment cos they didn't know if the units had moved when they got back and if they used to be lucky enough to get a leave, they used to have to bring all their equipment with them you see and he used to bring his rifle, everything on leave, and I, I always remember asking him why he hadn't, if he'd killed any Germans, why he hadn't got any notches on his rifle he erm +Do you rec turning back to Helliwells again jumping about a bit +Yes +erm when did they stop doing work on aircraft there, do you recall about what year that would be? +I can't, I can't remember precisely even so I think it, it, it's Walsall's loss that they haven't got an airport any more, it, it's purely but erm they, they did have a lot of s divided up into a lot of sports fields at one time didn't they but the people who've, is it the M E B who control those buildings now? +I don't know it was TI wasn't it at one time. +That that's right yes it was yeah and the airfield was divided up into football pitches and such like but er +Did it continue as a sort of civilian airfield after the war? +Oh no, no, no, not at all af after the war work it, it just seemed to er no one ever seemed to get any be interested in flying as they were pre-war then, or they probably that they had cars and they could get about more you know to other outlying places like Pentiford in Wolverhampton +So that flying club that you mentioned earlier on just finished ? +Oh yes when the war started yes, you, you see the people would have been called up into the forces anyway people young enough to fly, who, who had an interest, because er one of the air displays I remember very much a tomboy as she was she they used to give pleasure flights and she had defied this pilot to take her up and make her sick, and he was took her up there looping rolling and everything and er +Do you recall the incident when Henry crashed there? +No, not precisely I, I was a bit too young then, I, I remember all the songs about her Amy wonderful Amy and all those and oh and when she married Jim I was very much in but I couldn't actually say I remembered her crashing at Walsall The erm you could, yeah, when I came home from work one Monday afternoon my nan said this eighty eight had gone over very low, and we, we heard that they'd dropped this landmine this same aircraft had dropped this landmine that had gone under the gas holder at the gas works, in Road and the, they had some rescue workers from the A R P to get it out they never even bothered calling for the Royal Engineers, but the situation was that landmines used to come down on parachutes, and they used to slide into places which were inaccessible but anyway, they relied on the local Walsall A R P to get them out. +The other time I remember was when William the chromium platers in Street ye got bombed, with a high explosive bomb, but there was, there was no one hurt that I remember, and then the Halleys the tent people had an incendiary bombs and got burnt out, at the same night that they dropped some incendiary bombs on the bus depot in Road, they, they were a lot of work for the fire brigade, but comparatively speaking with, with Birmingham I think Walsall got off very lightly as regards the bombing, as there was no heavy industry around here. +I do believe there were, there was a high explosive bomb but I think it was just jettisoned to as you wanted to get back home the German pilot he, he landed somewhere up Bluebell Wood but it just exploded and no one was hurt. +Where was that Bluebell Wood? +At, at the back of the Three Crowns where that is now, I don't know whether if it was a bomb meant for the airport, I can't think that it was though it was a bit far away for that. +Did they have any erm raids that were that you'd think were directed towards the airport at all, were there any incidents of this kind? +No, no it was very much a green field area, and I think if they'd have wanted to get bomb anywhere they'd have been directed at Castle Bromwich, which were very much they were building Lancasters and Sterlings and they were very much the heart of the British bomber industry. +We were only small fry really at Walsall airport. +About how many erm planes would they have in during the week to repair, what was the, the turnover? +Oh it, it wasn't there seemed to be a long time you know before they turned one out to make, because it was a very long process rebuilding an aircraft,es especially as the situation was at Walsall. +I, I think it was only a drop in the ocean really towards the national effort, but, but I remember erm at Darlaston, they used to build tanks over there and they, they used to pay us visits in sometimes they'd send some of their men over in the tanks to give us a pep talk about the war effort and all that but er, they used to do things like that then to gee you up erm +How many aircraft were they capable of working on at the same time? +Oh they, they used to have several going through the hangers at one time they erm they probably had about six Harvards, and about nine Bostons which were, they were bigger than +Blenning Bombers, er were these Bostons and Harvards they er quite a twin engine quite a wide wingspan and quite heavy for what they were, but as they were stripped down in, in the top hanger, and like I say a lot of stuff was salvaged from them, which was still good as they went out reconditioned at the other end. +There were sometimes they, they came, if they'd been in action and er, the people had actually found blood and parts of the uniforms in the air gunner's compartment at the back, and the, the fella, the navigator u and bomb aimer used to be in the nose, they hadn't got much of a chance if they came down in there because they were right cut off from the rest of the aircraft so, but it was virtually a suicide position in the nose of the Bostons. +They yeah we used to call in Tex and he, he couldn't believe that there were old people living in Walsall at the time in this country the size of England, and people living in Walsall that had never seen the sea in their lives, and this guy coming from America couldn't believe this. +He, he was a real friendly guy and like I say he never said cheerio before he went, but one day he just painted his aircraft up with the D-day landing signs which we didn't know at the time and the next day he was gone of course it was very much top secret that was but the town just emptied of all Americans it was like a ghost town after them but it had been previously. +It was like walking into Chicago at times in Walsall and the snowdrops as they used to call their military police with the white steel helmets on they used to ride around in jeeps. +I first started to go when they were getting promotion to the second division the last few matches in the third division. +When was that about, what year would that be? +That would be about sixty, sixty one as I see, and er they were the last match of the season virtually was that they gained promotion on was Shrewsbury, which was at the game meadow and Arthur , the player manager who was a prolific goal scorer in his day, was playing at the time and er nobody expected Walsall to win but they ran out two-one winners and all down the A five that night all the pubs were full coming back with everyone celebrating, so erm, after then they had a civic dinner at the Town Hall for the players and they did a big flower display in the arboretum all set out in flowers the club badge and congratulation lads on winning promotion, and this when they kicked off the following season, in the second division, prior to that they played a friendly match against Leicester and Gordon was in goal and I took my boy with me Tim, who was only a toddler at the time, and he, I stood him on the old archway where the players used to run out, but the first league match was against Sunderland and Brian , actually played for Sunderland as centre forward and er Walsall ran out four-three winners in the end Tony , who was Walsall inside left got a hat trick and I believe Tommy , got the other goal and Brian scored for Sunderland, then the er we went on to the, the first away match which was at Derby County, and Walsall won that three-one. +I think it was the impetus of them getting promoted and the enthusiasm the er then the next home match was against Newcastle which Walsall played to a packed house. +There were twenty five thousand, I, I wouldn't like to see twenty five thousand on that ground again, because I, I used to smoke at the time and we were packed that tight in the ground I couldn't even get my hands down to my pockets to get a cigarette out, so the erm after the first few games they started to draw at home and then they seemed to lose the impetus and that they still held a good position in the league, but the following season Liverpool were in the second division at the time, and I, I went to that match and Walsall scored first through Colin and er, they went on to beat us six-one in the end. +Can't tell you how long a journey it was back in the fog from Liverpool that day, and then when we were relegated back again to the third division it was on the last match of the season against Charlton, and the heavens opened and a big thunder storm and it just flooded the pitch and the referee just called the match off and they had to play it again the following Friday and Charlton ran out two-one winners and Walsall finished with nine fit men and still that's the football I suppose. +Can you tell me something about the crowd itself, erm did particular age groups tend to stand together around the ground or were the young +Oh oh oh not really, but it was when this chanting came in that the young fellas seemed to like gangs in the crowd and this when all the trouble started +When would that have been about this were they in the second division then or +Oh no no it would be ten fifteen years ago I think. +The erm, yes these and it started to be like warfare more than a game you know at that stage but hopefully now we're getting back to some sort of sanity with the membership cards you know, because we, the crowd is segregated from the away supporters now and that's cos if Walsall go into the second division again they'll have to spend so much I believe on the ground to cage the away supporters in which they don't have to do in the third division. +I was just discussing this last night, but they used to be more friendly atmospheres, even with the away supporters years ago you know it was but things go full circle in the end and hopefully like I say we're getting back to some sort of sanity now. +Have you ever felt personally unsafe in the crowd? +O only that night against Newcastle when they were, they were packed tight you know. +It was just I, I went down they played Liverpool in the cup about that era, and the, the wall was pushed down at the Street end but erm the people just spilled on the pitch and I don't think anyone was really hurt, this happened when they played er Liverpool in the cup a couple of years ago the wall was pushed down at the other end on that occasion, but er there was just one, one person hurt but there wasn't anybody very seriously injured as I understand +Were there any, were there any special chants or songs that the Walsall crowd used to put across +Well, well they did try to get a song going once sponsored by the club, it was sung by St Matthews' choir would you believe, but it, it didn't seem to take off, the football supporters seemed to take very much to their own sort of songs, and they, they'd pick up songs and chants from other grounds now like the Liverpool song You'll Never Walk Alone, and they used to sing Away the Lads they used to pick that up from the Newcastle supporters and and +Was there anything that was specifically Walsall chants +Not that I can recall no the erm +Were there any players that the crowds used to pick on especially in any way? +No but +Urging them on or putting them down. +Well Tony , was who manager at the associated now, er he was very a very popular player, he was a goal scorer on one occasion, they played an away match at Swindon and he scored a goal and the goalkeeper got sent off a John so Tony went in goal and he saved a penalty later in the match, but he was a very popular player he was a a good goal scorer then there was Colin he, he had one of the hardest shots in the league you know, I've, I've seen the goalkeeper shrug his shoulders at, at defenders and say well how do you stop those, they used to call him Cannonball at one time, and er there was Tommy he had his collarbone broken and he never played again after, but he was a great centre forward he used to make a lot of space for the other forwards you know. +Course when Walsall were promoted, they hadn't got into the European systems then it was very much the old five forwards three halfbacks two fullbacks and a goalkeeper in those days, the, the laundry was there, in those days when they were in the second division. +That was laundry? +That's right yes and they used to say that the stack was full of footballs been put up there by p opposing defenders. +When the, the laundry was knocked down it seemed to be the end of an era that er, it didn't seem to be like park much longer. +When did they knock that down? +Oh, it was, that would be the late sixties I would think when they were in the erm third division. +And how did they use that extra area, what did they do with the ? +Well that that is now accommodation for away supporters down at there is no cover over it as yet, there were plans to make a covered stand of it but er they haven't it has been covered over and that's where the away supporters still stand to this day and a little bit around the corner at the bottom end, at the railway end as they call it now, not the laundry end. +What about the Hilary Street end is that still open ? +That, that's open to the general public but where I stand you have to have a membership card to go in there now, and er you pay two pound before the season started and er local traders give you a discount and things erm it's just one way of er segregating the supporters if you like, but there doesn't seem to be so much trouble since they've done this, but at the same time there doesn't seem to be as much atmosphere +How do you mean +in there. +atmosphere, what's gone? +Well all the support comes from one side of the ground, I mean when they score all the shouting comes from one side of the ground now and when Walsall scored all the shouting seems to come from the Street end and the erm +So before it was erm all the way around the pitch, the response. +That's right, yes, yes. +What about away matches? +Do they get much following from their supporters? +Oh yes quite so and if they're doing well they really, local people really get behind them, but they, they've prom in previous seasons they they've promised so much and then fell away at the end that people have got a bit disillusioned and discontented so that, but like last year when they were doing well in the cup they erm at Watford I mean loads of people went to see them. +My son and daughter-in-law went down. +They made a four all draw and I think they've still got the video now on television of the match. +How do most people go to away matches? +Do they make their own way ? +Their own transport and they do, do run coaches and er there are rail British Rail run the service as well as a rule. +I don't think they've had a lot of trouble really speaking with Walsall supporters over the years because they seem to be er go to support the club not to fight and er +What about home erm away teams coming to Walsall I mean is there ever any trouble as they arrive in the town? +Well not any more. +The last trouble I remember was when they played Birmingham City in the Cup last season. +They reckon arrests were made down but they were down at Beskett Station and they made a couple inside the ground, but I think they were just people running on the pitch you know, they were over enthusiastic. +Has there ever been any trouble down in the Pleck itself on match days? +Well I, I +As in pubs +I have seen away supporters being chased up the road into Pleck Park and but erm I think basically a lot of the trouble used to be caused by drink and now they don't have any drink in the ground they er they, they seem to have cracked that one. +Were there any teams that used to come and play at Walsall that were notorious in any way? +Oh oh yes very much so they were Millwall and erm there were notably Millwall. +Why, I mean what was the problem with them? +Well they were noted even when cos Jim went down there a few, few times he used to have chaps running around the ground with chains and knives and all that sort of thing, but it's in the Dockland area of London Millwall. +They used to be a real rough lot as I believe they are still now they've still got a name today they +What about Port Vale I've heard people say they used to be a hard team to play. +Yes but they never seem to have got a lot down at Walsall. +To Tony was telling me that er he was asked that Walsall needed the money so he was asked to be transferred to Port Vale, which he did but er I think he was past his best and he, he'd came down back here and played a couple of times with Port Vale, and er but erm like I say he was past his best. +He was a, got a record number of goals for Walsall in the season, it's never been broken to this day erm. +Colin broke, I think he equalled a record for a leftwinger as well scoring goals we had er later on we had Bob came from Coventry, Coventry City. +He played in goal for several years for Walsall. +Where did people park their cars and all that when they go to the matches ? +Round in Crescent and er the people make allowances often they make announcements in the ground of they're blocking somebody's entrance and will they go and move the cars out and +I recall many years ago a lot of people used to go on bicycles and they used to leave them in the front of those houses that are just in . +That, that's right yeah . +The, the people used to charge them so much haven't they for parking the cycles yes. +I, I used to walk it there when I went there,e even from Lane I never used to get on the bus I, I used to walk it down there cos we used to go down by the side of, of the old Street cemetery you know over by the gas works and up Street the erm +What about the directors and managers? +Oh oh yes Henry who was the chairman of the day then. +When was that? +In now I was reading about him pretty recently +Never mind. +Oh I, I can't put the year +Just approximately was this in the nineteen sixties? +Yeah, yeah, yeah and then erm the family took over. +The ? +The took over yes then and they would +And what influence did they have on the Walsall Football Club? +Well they, they seemed to be putting some finance in, but er it went through a bit of a flat spot and then the sold out I, I'm sorry I'm stuttering and all this but I haven't done my research you know and it, it's, it's tough going. +Er . +What sort of influence did the directors and managers have with choosing the team? +Well the Bill was, who was the manager in those days was very much the manager, and there was one of the directors used to play for the Villa, and he used to more or less look after the playing side which the rest of the directors never seemed to interfere with, they, they left the management up to the manager the selection of the team, Bill and the trainer when they were in the second division was Arthur who's manager of Derby County now, he had the, I believe he had a sad time when he was at Walsall he, he lost his wife in a car accident and +What about the ground itself? +Was it a good ground to play on? +Well they, they had to do the, it hadn't used to have very good drainage and far more of a slope, it, it's far more level today than it used to be, it used to have a great slope towards the long end which was considered an advantage to Walsall and the water used to gather, but I believe the improved the drainage and had pipes put under which it, it doesn't seem to gather water so much now down at the railway end. +The since Terry took over the ground everything's been refurbished and new crush rails put up you know, and he seems to have made it a good ground. +Quite, quite frankly I, I can't see Walsall moving, because it seems to have been money wasted if they've made Fellas Park good and then they move somewhere else. +So I wouldn't like to see any property developers take it, the club on because I think they'd be purely after the ground, I, I'd feel much better if the consortium with Ray at the head took it over because they are genuinely interested in Walsall and the Walsall people. +You said earlier that you go to reserve matches as well. +I, I did do years gone by yes and they, they did move into the football combination at one time, because it was considered that the Midland Intermediate League was too big a jump for young men into the first team and the difference was so vast in the type of football that Walsall second team they u only playing young fellas, and they used to win seven and eight goal margins every week you know, but then they moved up into combination that was a better standard of football, but latter years economy drives and everything they came back out of the combination reverted to the Midland Intermediate again which I believe there are two phases of that no one for s older players and the other one strictly for youth players +I was going to ask you if they'd got a youth team? +Yes, yes, they're out of the youth cup now as I understand. +I, I can't remember who knocked them out but erm they are out of that competition. +Is the ground ever used for anything else apart from? +No, no, it, it got oh er erm for other some local teams if have a final it's sometimes played down there. +What sort of teams? +In, in the days +would they be? +Of the er regime I saw erm Moscow, Moscow Dynamo came over and played Walsall in a friendly match yes erm +Was there a good crowd for that one? +Oh yes very good. +There was about ten to fifteen thousand, which the limit on the, the ground limit today is about seventeen to eighteen as I can understand. +And is it the same size ground as the match when there was twenty five thousand in you say you were a bit bothered about it in fact? +Virtually but the laundry was there then there, there wasn't so much room then you see. +Because of all those extra people in there? +Because there was no one at the bottom end, but they've, they've got all those extra people in it, it was really frightening when I look back, but the, the reason there could have been, there were er nineteen thousand at the Sunderland match but it was an all ticket game so they restricted the crowds somewhat. +Have Walsall always played in the same colours as long as you've been supporting them? +Yeah they, they've played in red and white, red, white, red shirts white shorts, but they, they used to play in claret and blue I can remember seeing them in claret and blue when I was a small boy but erm +What used to go to the matches when you were a lad? +Whenever I could afford it you know, but erm, there wasn't so much money in those days I can't remember exactly how much we, we used to get in for coppers you know. +Did your wife go to the matches with you? +She has been a couple of times but er when we were bringing up the family course she couldn't reasonably go with me every week and er, but she had used to be er a good supporter when she was a girl, she used to go with her father in those days my son's been with me, cos I took him las well he took me last night with his wife I went in their car . +Are there a lot of women supporters? +Yes, yes, quite a good few I would think. +Do they make themselves heard in the crowd as well? +Oh yes, yes, if er they don't like the referee they'll let him know it some of the decisions +Do you think the town supports the club enough? +Well, not really but they have been disillusioned over the years they've promised so much and then they've never seemed seemed to get anywhere but I think, I honestly think they would, people would get behind them, if they could see they were going somewhere I mean like this season they seem to have fallen away yet again. +Why do you think the reason for this is? +Well they've wanted a mid-field player and a good striker, now people well write letters to local press informing them of this, but they don't seem to be prepared to do this, they, the managers want to do their own thing as far as I can see they think the people on the terraces don't know anything, but Jim and I were saying last night they wanted a mid-field player for ages now all this season, a ball winner, they haven't had one since Willie used to play and +Is it lack of funds? +Can they afford to buy a good player? +Well, well they've just sold a player to Leicester for eighty five thousand and they, they bought a fella from Port Vale on a free transfer, well he's a Richard they've bought him back again, only with a, all due respect but er now he's got he's playing very well with Leicester now, and he's, he's scored two goals and made one the other Saturday, and, and everyone, every match since he's been there every time he's played. +So I can't see that it's justified you keep letting your best players go people do get illusioned and people aren't fools, they're gonna stop away aren't they if they thinking they're not doing anything to get going anywhere. +Is it a dedicated core of supporters that go ? +Oh yes very much so very much so there always has been, yeah they used to call them the faithful four thousand at one time. +They erm and, and some of the characters they in days gone by they used to dress up in costume if they were doing well in the Cup and have er a pole with a model of the F A Cup on Walsall's colours and they used to dress up in red and white suits claret and blue suits when they played in those colours yeah. +But did they used to walk round the ground like that? +Yeah and they used to have a man dressed up as Charlie Chaplin and he used to do his antics on the pitch before the players came out yeah. +Who was he, was he local? +Erm my nan remembers him, was it somebody called , no no he was another character I think he sold newspapers, but erm I do, I do remember him er They've always erm tried to get some entertainment on the pitch though prior to the matches to try and make it a family thing you know, I, I think Watford are the best club for that you know, because they, the supporters seem to take all the family along, as my son said when they went down there to the Cup replay they are very much a family sort, they don't get a lot of trouble at Watford either. +Are there a lot of families that follow Walsall in the same way? +Well I, I think after this er people haven't appreciated yet that they've, the grounds have become a bit safer than they were the hooligan element seemed to be taking over, they have er closed circuit television now, at Walsall, so they can get to the hot spot of any trouble and er they erm the ground +So a lot of people have been put off have they do you think +Y oh yes very much so +their families down? +Cos when I, I used to take Tim, it used to be very safe then, the only danger we seemed to be in in those days was catching cold. +I took Tim to the match one Easter Monday they played Luton in league match, and Ted played, the old Ipswich player, and we go absolutely, it rained, hailed, blew, and we got home soaked to the skin you know, and er it seems to make you feel better if they win you know, but if you sort of put up with those sort of things and they, they lose it's makes you feel right down in the dumps, but when they get promoted like they did last time it's remarkable, it's been remarked about this aspect, that people in local industry seem to work harder, and it seems to be a boost in general local traders make shop window displays and it seems to be a boost to the town in general and give a lift to the town if you like +What about other crowd noises are the people who take rattles and +No they've been banned from taking them in in case they clobbered anyone with them you see oh they were banned some time ago, as were flags they used to carry flags at one time and rattles, but er they don't let you take anything in. +As, as a matter of fact, my son you know those di things you have like you have for the television like a switch box? +Oh a remote control +Re remote control yes, well my son has one of those he has an electric garage door on his house, and a copper frisked him before he went in last season cos he, he's a younger bloke and er he said what's this and he pulled it out of his pocket, he said it's to open my garage door with he said what do you think it is a death ray or something yeah. +Are there any refreshments available at the ground? +Yeah well they don't sell er drink any more, not alcoholic drink but there are, there are tea, pies and those sort of things available. +Who runs that? +Is it part of the supporters club? +Yeah it is now, yeah they used to have private caterers at one time but I believe it's, it's part of the club now and the profit making concern. +Do they sell scarves and that sort of thing? +Oh yes yeah outside yes and old programmes they sell at away matches, badges, season tickets as you might understand,but they, they are going to have a good day in April on the centenary day because they have it getting all the old players Tony says he, he's been invited to attend as well and Gilbert I believe will be going and erm +It should be a good day. +Yeah yeah a good Da Dave manages Doncaster now he's an ex manager of Walsall as well We lived at the Brown Lion at the time and er, I, I was out the front on the Saturday evening and I er manager's just been to fetch his Sunday joint from the local butchers and he shouted across the road to his pal how have they got on, cos there was no radio in those days, and er he says they've won two nil and the man dropped his meat in front of him and dribbled it all the way down the road, it was such excitement it was of course all people over the moon. +That's what the country was it was always to be remembered feat a giant killing match of all time. +People still talk about when they beat the Arsenal as though it was only last season almost don't they? +Yes, yes. +I don't think it will ever be forgotten. +No no no well it's always it was then like a team of pygmies beating Liverpool today that's what it ranks with. +Were there much celebrating that night? +Oh yes yes er all the pubs were full and +And what about the team when they came back? +Well it was at Walsall. +Oh it was at Walsall. +Yes and it was at Walsall. +They, they'd beat Arsenal in more recent years in erm in the Milk Cup at Arsenal, that was very exciting a few years ago. +Did you go to that match? +No my son went but I didn't go. + +ask a silly question . +I was born on central Island as I said. +What's the name of the of the +The house Er the house was Greenspot. +It was down near the centre of the island down past er mill dam. +Ah. +Mhm. +And was that ? +Aye. +Mhm. +What size was it? +About seven and a half acres. +Oh that's not very big. +No. +Were there many in your family +Two. +That size of croft would never be enough to keep you living. +Keep the family. +Well it kept us and er when we were the school holidays my brother and me used to to gather whelks and and that. +The Summer holidays and even even in the Christmas holidays we were . +. +Well er ten or twelve year old. +Yeah. +When were you born? +Nineteen twenty two. +So what what kind of livestock did you have on that size of croft? +Oh +Can you remember. +Oh two ca and four calves and a horse. +One horse. +One horse? +Aye and joined with the next-door neighbour er for cultivating the land. +Mm. +Did you have anything at that time? +No I never at Greenspot let me say. +I don't believe So that must have died generation. +Oh there were there were a lot of houses but ere we didn't have any. +We used to some of us other boys we'd go down to the banks and the Winter time. +Oh aye . +Where you involved in it? +Aye, the gathering . +Used to take a a basket with your bottle with tea and that in it to my father when we was . +What was it like . +Oh it was great month of June. +See we Summer days then compared with what we get nowadays. +Everybody says that so it must be true. +When you went to the kelp, how long do you remember that ? +Oh I don't know really what time the really started. +I think it started school. +And what age were you when you left +Fourteen. +Ready to walk land when I were fifteen. +But like, when you were a young boy growing up would the kelp workers could they make as much money . +Er not really, the main source of income on the croft er when I was was er we keeping hens. +Aye. +Tell me about that. +Oh I couldn't rightly tell you what the number of hens would be that er maybe within maybe er thirty dozen eggs in the week or so. +Mhm. +And that was that's just your your croft. +Mm mhm mhm. +Aye with used just the grain that was grown on the croft and brought in a lot of the feed. +We used to wheel it home then on the push-bike. +The feed for the shop and we the box of eggs on the push-bike. +And that brought in th that was your main source on income ? +Aye. +Mhm. +When did that start? +Was that on the go when you were growing up o did it start +Aye just when I was growing up it started aye, maybe when or maybe when I was about er ten year old or something. +. +Oh quite a lot. +Well like all the the ground was all cultivated and you had the had like all the Summertime you had to fence the the hens off the the cultivated land. +What kind of hens did you have? +It was usually wine dots, some leghorns, Rhode Island Reds. +Oh Aye and there was the +all the the tatties boiled tatties and chopped it up for the hens. +That was my mother sometimes er mix it up with er with the bought hen feed and gathering nettles and er boiling nettles and that to mix it up with. +Oh. +Mhm. +And gathering chickweed out of the neep the chickens and that for green feed when they needed and they were confined in a small small space where there was no green grass to feed them on. +Oh I see. +You used to go up with a with a sack or something and gather the chickweed er out of the tattie and neep . +So you reared your own . +Mhm. +Oh yeah, flock of hens. +Sit on maybe thirteen or fourteen eggs. +Mhm. +Was that hens . +Oh no hens. +And they used to and they if you had er good er breeding stock and that the the neighbours would come to you for a sitting on eggs. +Coze eggs a dozen eggs or . +Would this erm croft specialize in that? +Did you w did you specialize more than most folk or were you just average ? +Oh no no, just average. +All the peedie crofts throughout did that. +More the peedie crofts +Aye +And was it much did you get for you know +Oh I just I just couldn't tell you really what +Usually. +Aye usually +Mhm. +Well there was you would er buy your errands and they was marked down in a book at the shop. +You put up your eggs and marked it down and then they was er cleared then at the end of the year. +And some years you'd probably maybe get a few pounds back and sometimes you would er maybe have to pay a few pounds. +And your Aye. +But Aye. +Mm . +I see but you didn't actually get the money for them. +No actually no. +Mhm. +But us there was there was mainly was also er living was er the eggs paid for what you bought for the shop. +And for their own er feed. +Aye. +Mhm. +You bought that for the shop did you +Mhm. +Aye aye. +And you didn't have to +No you just marked it down and cleared it up at the end of the year. +What kind of accommodation and and equipment and that did you need for the hen did you just big henhouse +Just the the usual size for a henhouse, er six by eight feet. +Er +And how many hens would that hold? +Oh you'd maybe hold er thirty in it. +Mhm. +Thirty hens in the six by eight house. +Aye over those aye. +about the same size. +And roof with er like st flag stone roofs. +Where they easy to keep hens? +Mm. +Were they did they need a lot of attention ? +Well they needed a lot but they especially if they were in a confined space. +But what we found was that the heavier breeds, the wine dots and the Rhode Island Reds, they didn't need such a high fence as what the leghorns or any of the lighter breeds needed. +Used to if the wire and that you'd try and get a hold of them and clip their wings to stop the flying out. +Did they all follow or not? +Oh they tried to aye. +That must have been an awful lot of hens then . +Oh aye. +And now, where did they go then? +The usually go to the the egg packing station . +I think most of the of the crofters here I think maybe had a better . +But nobody much into the the egg packing station. +Mhm. +And when did that all fold up? +Oh it folded up after the war. +Mm. +Something I've heard it said before, I don't know if this is true in North Ronaldsay that that gale in nineteen thirty two had something to do with it . +Mhm aye it had something to do with it lot of lot of henhouses and that blown away. +And aye certainly i think it did er start to go down after that. +And +Do you remember that night? +Oh aye I did. +Tell me what you remember of it. +I remember me getting up about three o'clock in the morning I heard the wind and I got up to look at the stack yard and start to put er bits of pit props and that into the nets and and and the wind was getting that strong the pit props was going flying over me head and I gave it up and made for and it's certainly not a very high door at Greenspot but or a very big door but it took me all my time to get the door closed. +Mm. +Mm. +Was it the worst wind you've seen? +Oh aye. +It was more wind than what was the hurricane after to the North East. +Aye. +Was that the next year? +Aye. +Mhm. +Aye mhm, there were more damage done on North Ronaldsay with the nineteen fifty two. +What direction wind was it? +South West. +Is that your worst +. +Mhm. +Aye. +And what damage did the wind do to your croft? +Well er it blew down er two of the henhouses and er I was working at Cruisbruk then. +And they got reckon they were They had a lot of henhouses then they were working a lot hens and there were five or six henhouses all blown to bits and the hens scattered about everywhere. +All the stacks blown down. +Were there hens all dead? +Aye a lot of them. +Aye. +. +There were quite a lot of loss right enough. +I was just gonna say +There were a there were a bit of fund for it I think. +Aye. +There were some there were +one or two on the island here who got a bit for the that er damage with the storm. +Storm damage. +Mhm but there wasn't very many. +Were they the ones that really bad? +Mhm. +Aye. +What's erm what what's most affected . +Oh I think we were one of the worst hit was Cruisbruk was aye. +It was up on a height suppose. +Aye. +But it was during the night you see, the the nineteen fifty three one was started wayward nine or ten o'clock. +It was more in the daytime. +And did that do damage +Aye it did a lot of damage the dykes and that. +But not so much I think er with a lot of henhouses and that they were better battened down I think after the first year. +But the hens eased off here for the the start of the the cultivate ley the land. +They were growing ley and corn. +More hay and that. +So they didn't have much er of their of their feed for the hens. +And they buy it all in, there was no pay in it. +And then there was not much gro cereals grown here and then the mill stopped. +Nobody working in the mill for they'd not much to do in the mill. +Aye. +And did the money . +Well er the money was not you had to buy the and the there were nothing in it unless you went into choosing a a big system like the battery system. +Aye. +But there was a lot of them they used to work with er the oil lamps and that out in the henhouses. the hens eggs, they feed at night. +Oh right . +Aye. +Mhm. +But they light the lanterns henhouse might be about four or five o'clock and you maybe leave it in the henhouse maybe till nine or ten at night. +Hens got extra feed and you got more eggs. +And that worked? +Mhm. +Oh it certainly worked. +But there would have been a lot of work for you boys +Oh aye. +hens who were once the oats were so were sown they had to they were closed down and that. +And when we had a down near the banks dyke and it was fenced round and we used to carry the hens down there at night in a sack on your back. +Oh. +Mhm. +Or maybe a a lot in a sack wheel them down on a wheelbarrow or something. +And what what was the reason for this? +We shift them down to the so they couldn't get onto the cultivated land. +And then they left the then for the the younger birds . +Give them a better chance. +If you'd the old hens closed in with them they the young birds would have no chance. +The old hens would eat all the feed. +Mhm. +Aye. +Catch them with a dog and clip their wings. +So you were what what were you doing at . +Were you growing a lot of crops ? +Well er grown in just in rotation you know working the land every five or six year rotation er and er you had not very much hay. +And er then you see the then and . +Oh aye, did all the cutting with scythes. +Really. +Mhm. +Aye. +We never had a we never had a reaper on on Greenspot. +It it was all cut with a scythe until er well I started I go to Holland to work when I was fourteen and my brother Charlie he got away and my father and mother was left they were home. +And they they failed then you see with cutting the crop with a scythe and they hired then a tractor and binder to cut the crop. +Did did it take a while to cut crop this size? +Oh it took a while. +You would er it would all depend. +you see if it was a fine stand crop you could cut quite a bit but if it was all raffled it took a while. +Well they they were all no well you could maybe aye they help aye but er usually they had as much as they could do themselves you see. +Cos any spare the men or that they were usually away for a har taking up a harvest. +Earning a few pounds. +work when I was fifteen, and I was away then for a while and then after the war when I come back I was working at at Cruisbruk. +And then er working with them the tractor and binder did the cutting and that and we did the cutting and the leading . +And Sydney at Antabruk. +What was it like when you went into service at at . +What were the conditions like? +The conditions was not great. +You got er twelve pound for six months work. +Did you get your board and +You got your Aye. +Mhm. +You just had the twelve pound for pocket money. +You got your board and lodgings you see. +And what did that +Well er you at Holland I usually stayed home at night. +I got Aye. +Mhm . +Aye but er some of the other boys that were there they used to stay at. +They you see. +And and er the the wages get up two years every half a year. +Fourteen pound for the firs er twelve pound for the first half and fourteen for the second. +And what did a day consist of roughly then? +What time were you up in the mornings? +Well er when I started then I was usually up about seven. +And we worked from eight o'clock in the morning till eight at night. +. +With break for We'd start we'd do the cattle feed the cattle in the morning and then we were in for breakfast and then er be out then and er dinner then was usually about half past twelve and you started again on at two. +And then in for your tea at six and then after you had your tea cattle. +Aye. +You finished about eight o'clock at night, you had about twelve hours so you're working more or less except for the wasn't very long.. +Were you responsible for the horse or were you a cattle man? +Well er I was a cattleman to start with and then it was the horse. +Was that a progression up then. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Why was that the case? +Well I don't know, he usually usually had the one horse man and er a chap in the working . +And er if it suited then if you a young chap when they first started for a year or so you'd be working with the cattle and himself, the boss, would be working the horse with a horseman. +And then you get getting neeps and getting and onto the ploughing and than. +And then er himself then would er be doing the cattle. +Mhm. +. +No no he was just the tenant the firm were Holland. +Ran Jimmy 's the name. +He belonged to the mainland of Orkney. +No he . +Aye. +From Evay, I think his brother was in Walkerhouse in Evay. +Oh. +Aye. +And then when he left er Holland in nineteen thirty nine, he went to the Glebe in Birsay. +What size ? +Oh it was about three hundred acres. +Glebe at Birsay then was about sixty acres. +Mm. +And what kind of food did you get? +Oh the growth of the ground as they said. +What was it your breakfast consisted of? +Well er sometimes it might be porridge but it was usually just er the and maybe er boiled eggs and er oatcakes and and your dinner'd probably be tatties and pork or something of that kind. +Mush the same at teatime. +But you were well enough fed? +Oh aye, well enough fed. +Was there a difference in the conditions at different firms in +Oh aye certainly there was. +Right enough. +You were better fed at some firms or others. +And . +They were fairly good. +Aye. +Mhm. +And what kind of holidays did you get then you worked at Holland for how long? +Two and a half year. +Mhm. +One +holidays +One week in the year. +And you worked every Saturday and every second Sunday. +There were no half days on Saturday or day off on Saturday. +And you worked every second Sunday as a cattle look after the cattle every second Sunday. +In the Summertime you didn't have so much to do on a Sunday. +horse to water and things of that kind. +But you couldn't really do very much . +And the funny thing was even if it should be a rainy day. +and we were maybe hanging around at Holland and not doing very much, the boss never thought of doing the threshing till after we for tea. +Then we go out and thresh after tea time. +And what did that consist of what did you used to thresh with? +We'd thresh with a mill and engine. +one chap feeding the mill and one the other chap then giving him the and the other chap was working below taking away the straw and looking after the grain. +Was that a hand mill at that time. +No at Holland there was a hand-mill Greenspot. +Just a small er Tiny metal mill and a handle on every side you turned. +maybe before I was ten year old, turning the handle of the wap mill as they called it. +And there was the like for the corn and that we used to what we called hammling it was done with a flail. +Ah . +Did you you used the flail? +Mhm. +Mhm. +Oh aye, we used the flail. +. +Oh it wa +I've never seen one I've never seen it being used. +No. +It look can't imagine . +It was alright, I didn't mind working the flail and the two could work the flail together. +one standing opposite other one. +And one was striking one time and the other one the other. +Mhm. +Oh right. +Aye. +Mhm. +Was it efficient, does it work fine? +Oh aye it worked fine. +And I've seen when getting corn er just right er dressed for the mill, I've seen us er doing with a spade and that and a tub. +Cup a bag or corn into the tub a big wooden tub and get a sharp spade and keep chobbing with a spade in the tub. +That's what they call chapping corn. +You just made the corn . +In fact you made it too for seed if you did. +The corn was too for seed it didn't go down. +Er there come any rain, it just all come to the top. +What sort of mill did you use the mill for did you put grain through the mill +Mhm for for oats for oatmeal. +And and lot of the oats and the corn they was roughly ground for the . +That was feeding the pigs or the . +But w as I said we did because we didn't have a pig. +But we used to put the oats to the mill and the and the corn for getting it bruised for feeding the horse and the cattle. +Was it quite a sophisticated mill +Mhm. +Mhm. +Aye. +They got a new engine in the mill er the start of the war I think. +Cos an oil engine was in it for a while and then they put a new diesel engine in I think it would be nineteen thirty nine or something. +. +It was Mr that was the laird there. +Mr oh yes I remember him and the wife died but I didn't mind er +Willie aye, well i didn't mind him. +And Mrs she was the laird for quite a while a while after the war. +She was laird. +Did she stay here at that time? +No she only stayed for a few weeks in Summer +So who was the factor here? +It was er a James in Kirkwall. +But he didn't live here? +No no he just came up to collect the rent. +And +Oh it was alright. +Was it quite fair . +Oh aye he was fair you see the the rents on Ronaldsay was never very high, in fact the the rents in North Ronaldsay they're before nineteen hundred I don't think. +No them's just the on the if there'd not been any change to the croft and that there'd still the old rent. +No they seemed to be fairer than some of the lairds was. +When I heard the stories about quite a tyrant +Oh the s, aye well they they were more the bailiffs and that. +Aye they were Aye. +It was when the when the laird was out in India and that and the factor was stationed on the island. +Yeah. +Aye. +No no well I don't think so. +it was that was there at Howar there were a man . +Yes. +Mm. +Who was at Howar in your time? +s that came from Westray. +Oh . +No no there's nobody in it now. +Mhm. +Was Howar one of the big +It was the it was the biggest next to to Holland. +Thank goodness, aye. +And then the next biggest then well Howar would've been somewhere about sixty acre and Kilbest was roughly about the same I think. +And the next biggest then I think was about thirty six acres or so. +There were a few of the houses about thirty six or forty acres. +And a lot of the others then may thirteen or fourteen acres. +Some of them down to six and seven. +So Holland was by far the biggest. +Mhm. +Was it quite a good going farm? +Oh aye. +Mhm. +Good land and that? +Oh aye, a lot of good land on it. +Gets a bit of sea-gusting somewhat but a lot of good land on Holland. +And was it m mixed farming or what kind of farming +Oh aye, mixed mixed farming, aye. +Mhm. +They worked at Holland worked with the hens and pigs, when I was there and the cattle. +Usually just store cattle. +Howar they used to work a lot with finishing the cattle sell them for . +Take them out . +Do you remember things like the wild white clover. +Can you remember was that before +Aye that was started afore I mind much about it. +But er I mean it always er gained there was just a few working with it and they saw the improvement it was making and then everybody for the wild white clover. +And did you was that . +Aye, oh aye. +Did it make a big difference. +Mhm. +It certainly made a big difference. +What do you mean just in the the quality of the cattle or in the +Well the aye, the quality of the cattle cos it gave you a better grass, better feeding before that you see they bought some clover. +But it wasn't like the long white er the wild white clover but it did only did maybe a year or two. +It was only a a grass seed and they used to grow their own grass seed and just bought the clover seed. +And there was not a great lot of the clover seeded about until they started with this wild white clover. +A lot of them worked with er coltsfoot it stayed in, it didn't go out with the sea-gusting.. +Well what . +Oh it was shorthorn and Aberdeen Angus mainly . +And that's what you had at Holland? +Aye mhm. +Aye well there were some of the no there were no there were no at er Holland. +Er there were at Howar when I was there. +But it was just the shorthorn and the Aberdeen Angus that was at Holland. +And do you remember You must remember sort of changes in the chemicals that were you know, that was used on the land in the in the time that you were . +Oh aye. +When you started, what kind of fertilizers did you use? +There weren't used much first I started just seaweed and dung. +And very little artificial manure. +If they were short of ware or something they'd maybe put on sulphur or ammonia and super phosphate and potash and then they started then with slag. +slag on it maybe er five or six years you get a heavy dose of slag. +And that certainly helped land. +And it made better grass. +And who did you buy that . +They usually some of them would just order it through the vil the merchants, through the shops here. +And some of them would take it maybe themselves just or in Kirkwall. +Did they come up sometimes selling +Aye there some as come up travelling for seeds and for manure. +And did it make a big difference? +Oh aye it you see but er if you did put artificial manure on you see . +Oh it worked all right, there was very little manure used when I was a boy you used ware. +And you used to when you got home from school follow the plough and furring the the ware into the into the furrow. +And it was +Putting it right in and +Aye, and if it was very dry you had to tramp it down with your feet. +Some er furred at the front of the plough and some furred er behind the plough. +It spread the ware . +Was the ware better than dung? +Oh dung was was best I think but er ware . +Oh aye, mhm. +Always something to do. +And if you'd nothing to do then +Eh? +Oh aye, we'd have had in the process mind. +You maybe deserved it. +Aye. +the sheep ? +I think it was twenty I think. +Well er the sheep they were usually only the ewes, when they the lamb so they were usually on tethers just on bits of grass . +Then you had to flitt them every day when the wool started to get loose on them you had to the tether would get in a and you had to clear their tethers. +Did you do anything with the wool at that time? +Oh it was just sold we were getting as much for the wool then as for . +Aye she used to +Did she? +Aye she used to aye she used to . +What did she use it for +For socks mainly and jerseys. +Oh she used to make a lot of the clothes. +And she used to I mean her making the jackets and that for us. +Buy the dungaree and make a dungaree jacket. +Took a pattern off an old dungaree coat or something like that. +Was that . +Aye that's common with some of them aye. +They used to make the their own oilskins. +Did they? +Aye brought the cotton and my mother used to make oilskins they were I think it was . +When I was a boy. +But er afore she married she used to make oilskin coats and then er +They painted them with er raw linseed oil. +She used to they were made of cotton,cotton aye. +And sewed on the sewing machine and then painted them all with raw linseed oil but raw linseed oil took a long while to dry but they soft. +And if they were in a hurry they would maybe paint them all with what they called paint oil which was the boiled linseed oil. +It certainly dried quicker but the oilskin got very hard and it was no time till it when you were walking. +And did +Aye aye. +Mhm. +all that material and stuff did they bought that or send for it or +Oh they sent for the cotton or whatever to make the oilskins. +The shop didn't sell that then? +Aye the shop Aye. +But they sent the wool away to Jedburgh for blankets. +Aye. +Mhm. +Aye if you wanted like wool away and you got . +And they used I think they used to do that with blankets. +For blankets they would send so much wool away and you got blankets. +Mhm. +Oh aye. +Mhm. +Oh yeah. +Mhm. +It was where the last weaving loom was until well he was there at Upperbreck . +And then er he got er well the land up at Holland . +And he tramped back and forth to the loom. +built a house there and got a house there. +The laird I think er they did the work and the laird provided the roof and the all the woodwork I think. +And he wove? +Aye. +He had the weaving loom I think at the whether he ever had it set up at the I couldn't say. +But he certainly had it at the at the I think, it probably maybe still there, I couldn't say. +What kind of cloth did he make? +Blankets mainly I think. +Well I just couldn't really say. +Mainly blankets but they were awful heavy and blankets. +There's some of them blankets I think'll be here on North Ronaldsay yet I think. +Is it that wouldn't have been North Ronaldsay . +Aye. +It was I think it was . +Mhm. +Mhm. +No. +It was stopped a while afore I mind. +Mm. +I tell you something I wanted to ask you,Horseman's Society, was that . +Never in my time but I've heard it spoken about here. +Aye had the Horseman's word some of the older heard the Horseman's word but that was afore me time. +No. +No. +What about farmers unions, did you ever have that conditions that you were working in . +Oh no there were +there were no unions no. +Oh no. +No never any any union at all. +You were taken on as a boy and er you got a boy's wages but you were expected to do as much work as a man. +You couldn't maybe do the ploughing and that but if you were out spreading dung you or neeps you'd to just the same as the men and the the man may man might be getting maybe about twenty pound in the half a year and the boys maybe only getting twelve or something like that. +You +How long did it take you to work up to getting a full man's wage? +Well it'd be about two pound every half a year. +So you had to wait +Aye. +Mhm mhm. +Where did you go after Holland? +Well I was er twice in Birsay at 's well after he left Holland. +And then I was at Crantit. +And then I was back at Holland for another four and a half year. +And then I was four and a half year in Sanday. +And then I was back here then and I worked er at Antabruk for a year and then I work at Cruisbruk and Sydney was at Antabruk then . +What was it like at Holland when you came things changed a lot? +Well er it was only I'd been a wee while at er Birsay and a wee while at Crantit till I were back at Holland but it was a different farm I was in then it was a bit different. +. +I was in er Holland. +No no. +No no. +Same name but no connection but the same name. +Originally aye. +Mhm. +And had changed a lot in that time then? +It changed a lot basically the with the food and everything. +different? +Well the the idea of farming was much the same but he certainly was not very much of a farmer. +Mm and was his treatment any different. +Slightly but then him and me didn't get on. +He never wanted me there in the first place. +Oh. +Well that's . +Aye. +Mhm. +That must have gone on a lot +Oh aye. +Aye and then he'd leave. +In fact he and then Craigie from Rowsay was in it for a while. +And he away to Dale in and then the the s took it on and they've been in it since. +And it's changed they out-winter the beasts there now, it used to be that the beasts was in all the time in Winter. +when I was a boy of fifteen you were expected to to half acre of neeps in the day. +Did what to do expect you to get on with and +They expect you to get on They tell you what to do and you had to make the best. +It must have been a long day for a boy of that age. +It was long day you know. +Oh maybe +Aye. +And what what was school like when you you were going to school ? +It wasn't so bad er Greenspot was not very far from the school. +. And it wasn't so bad. +Firstly we had Robbie for a teacher and he certainly was awkward. +Was he ? +Aye. +Did he . +Aye. +Who was the first teacher ? +When I started it was with Ivy , and she were married in North Ronaldsay with the brother of Sydney, Roy . +And she was the first teacher and there was Mi Mr who was the head teacher. +And er Ivy got married and she stopped the teaching and died just that same year and then there was the a change for the both teachers. +Robbie come as the head teacher and er there was a Miss that was er the pupil teacher. +Aye. +I never had , he was never my teacher for I was I was with a pupil teacher. +Until he died and then I was just . +And was it two teachers in the school. +Aye, mhm. +. +There were thirty. +so maybe but usually thirty. +And what sort of things did you do in the in the . +What do you remember. +Oh I couldn't tell you very much about it. +I can't mind . +playing. +Mhm. +Played and and things of that kind. +Tell me what is? +Well they were usually a line of kids standing along the wall or something and one set out in the middle of the field and then you had to touch them and then you'd be back to the wall and they had to do it. +You changed places one of them catch them . +Aye. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Aye and mind the lasses they used to play a lot with instead of marbles they were working with . +The boys didn't play with +No +That's funny isn't it +The boys was trying to play football or something of that kind. +Or if the ground was kind of wet we used to er make slide then and skate along on it and if the ground got dry we would get a old bucket or something and run round to the tap at the tank at the back of the school and get a a lot of water wet till you could slip on it. +And that +Tell me about Rob Robbie this this teacher Was it Robbie ? +It was Robbie Aye. +What sort of teaching did he give then? +Well he just well he gave us er algebra and geome geometry and maths and that we were no use. +and he certainly had not much patience and we had never seen this afore. +If you made mistakes you got the strap you didn't even get the strap just for mischief, you got it for for mistakes and that. +Aye. +Oh every day nearly. +Depending on the mood he was in. +Ah he was here for what twenty two from thirty two to thirty nine. +Mhm. +He'd away just at the start of the war. +I was left school afore he left. +I was when he left. +I to the school after I was fourteen just for a wee while. +Aye. +And I wouldn't let him give me the strap then. +What were you +Eh? +I wou I wouldn't hold out my hand I was fourteen. +Really? +Mm. +If he gave me a shagging I tried my best to get me heel of my boot down on the stair, something of that kind . +When you when you were a young boy I was gonna ask get off the island manage to get +I was never away off the island until er I started to work at Holland. +The first the first half a year that I was Holland I I don't think I was away for a holiday, but then the the next Summer then I was away . +Just for er a few days. +For the plane was started here then you see. +What did you think to it? +It was alright we were got a flip on the when the plane first was just started here, well all the schoolboys and that was er called out on Saturdays to gather the loose stones . +Gather them in buckets or baskets and cup then in . +And we all got a flip on Ronaldsay for our trouble. +Was that +Mhm. +What was it like? +Oh it was fine yeah. +What was the plane like? +Oh we enjoyed it. +Was it were there many seats? +Aye just was five or six I think. +It was the we used er to go into Kirkwall with mainly. +The old repeat planes. +Oh but he was alright as a pilot. +he did some of the flying himself but he had other pilots. +I forget, was one of them and I forget the names now.. +And what did you think plane someone who'd never been away from +Aye. +You weren't frightened? +Oh no. +No. +Well was there mus much going back and fore in the boat . +Not really that many there were maybe the the holiday trip to Kirkwall maybe just for the day into Kirkwall. +My father was maybe in once or twice when I was a boy and he was maybe buying a horse and that but he was very seldom out of the island that I mind. +And I don't think I can't mind my mother away at all. +i don't think she was ever away for a holiday. +Never away . +Well she was in her younger days but after she married Aye after I was born I can't mind her being away. +You know. +My father was not often, maybe once or twice would for buying a horse or change a horse or something of that kind. +He went into Kirkwall. +Mhm. +Mhm. +What happened when you were . +Did did you +Sometimes aye, some of the drovers come out you see and . +Mhm. +Aye. +Steamers were only used once a fortnight, if there was weather. +Sometimes you'd maybe not get a steamer for maybe maybe six weeks if the wind was to the South East. +getting er low on sugar and stuff er landed here with a plane.. +It must have been a big difference when the plane was . +Mhm. +Do you remember that as being a Oh aye, aye well you see they had they had the mail service here before the war. +To North Ronaldsay. +And then er it was stop + +Well, what worked well? +Er, giving people specific jobs, like, combining one . +Right, how did you do yours? +Your group? +Well we decided, decided what we w , what the object was, and then, we got into a position that certain cards so, the cards were split between u , the two of us, so we aimed it in different directions. +So you divided into two teams? +Yes, and then we decided to pick them up, played back . +Right, okay, anybody else can add anything that they felt worked well? +We decided to dip into , and pick one each. +yes, the same, the same thing there. +What went badly? +I got one from Mars I think. +Then I went back in and did it again. +What you made, made a mistake. +In er,, you know, we only reversed when we got to the bottom of that last machine, and why had the guy back, erm, went over it, and go through it again, luckily it was only three high. +So you had , would anybody of, if they were going to do it again, do it differently? +No, oh yes, nick all the cards and played myself on the tune +Yes, +When we did all work together, all the different pieces worked together, and you could just have a card each and you could have just done it that way. +But when you've got forty three , they'll just taking ground anywhere. +Could you be fighting basically to see what was what. +If you can relate back to branches, everybody was just running around, everybody's had a specific task to do, you were just running round like a , +We could have just collected all the cards up, put them in the middle of the car park and all just stood over them . +It worked quite well, +Speak for yourself, +I know I have to look at it, I +I noticed, er, I felt three of the groups had somebody centrally who, who was being fed information all the time. +I mean, er, in terms of planning what, what did you say at the beginning? +What did you, what did your group talk about at the very beginning? +Whether all the cards were running off. +The changes, we split up so +Yes we did, we sort of divided the team up +Good idea +So what, what did he ? +, three cards each, right so we chose three to look at. +Yes, so you divided it up like that +And what, what was your idea Jane for your team? +Because the, there's two different ones to do, so we split it and two did one, and the other two did the other. +So you wasn't like four, five year old in a bed, trying to work it out. +It just seemed pointless to do, do what all the, the way down the morning and then after do all the way down the other end . +Mm, did anybody do one and then do the next one? +We did +Yes, did you find that hindered you at all? +No I can't say we was hindered through the , +We came, we came first, excuse me +That why our team did the same as you. +Ou , Ou, Our system worked okay for us. +We were finished about five minutes before +We didn't bother about it much, we've had one member as being two or three of the latest. +Right. +To share our information. +So it was kind of energy conservation, yes +It's space more than anything. +Alright, well thank you very much for doing that. +I hope that got us through the little post-lunch siesta period, erm, we're going to do another er, time management game now which will take about half an hour, and I need to split you up once again into groups, erm, okay. +Into three groups of six, so if we have, one, two three, one, two, three, one, two three, one, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three. +So we're going to do this exercise within this room and we'll need to rearrange the tables, so I suggest that each group as having one table or two tables, put it in a square to work around. +So if you could now get together with your people, all the ones together, all the twos together and all the threes together and rearrange the tables in an area of the room where you'd like to work. +, +Ones? +Twos? +Twos? +Twos? +Threes? +Any more threes? +Threes? +What are you? +Three. +Right, +What you're in your group, if within each group you could elect between you one, a manager and two, an observer. +Thank you class, have you all decided on your managers and observers. +Yes +If I could have all the managers and all the observers, please. +If you could come out, and out of the room with me. +, +The erm, shapes, did you ever have to do that with the thingy in the middle? +Erm. +You've got er, a sh , a T, we knew it was a T, but it could turn to different shapes, +No I didn't do that one +And then you have to explain it to the person opposite you, or a long distance phone call, and say how you,, and this, because there was a colour done what I've said, he said my colour's completely different, and you've propose all those colour bits, but +They're all different. +The object of that was don't assume that people have got a sign for , you know. +The beauty of having to describe a shape. +, +And as they're describing it, you had to draw it. +So you had to draw it as they describe it. +You're not supposed to be reading the news. +,, +Do you know if the answers are in there. +Did anybody meet that famous , last night about the, how you find out about people ? +I think I told Lisa again. +It's one of these assertion things +Aye, which thing's that? +What, what is the name of that? +Which one then? +It was body language wasn't it? +Aye, it wasn't particular clear though. +No +What's that? +, +What did Pete say? +It's supposed to be a session. +So what, what's that supposed to do, if you brush hair it'll indicate to the, the male kind er, that you're interested and that you wouldn't mind getting in touch with them. +It's not that you haven't got , or a black skirt or something. +, it's a love story , or something. +If all he wants is to hitchhikers doesn't he? +I know he does. +In fact, this +Because apparently we've all got to avoid eye contact either that right, or facial expression. +I'm going to use it the night before, if you've a minute +And all +, don't believe it. +Yes +That's two there isn't it? +Yes +I've got, they're reading about I. +The manager, what's the manager going to do, do you think? +Give directions. +And the observer's just going to watch the group as a whole because she's not anybody to, to . +How much longer do you think? +. +How about sitting here Deena? +Unsure, don't know. +Do you think we're going somewhere this week? +Nip up then because she probably . +Perhaps they're doing pass the parcel like . +You know that Piper Alpha thing? +No +, late at night,, they've got the boat, and the tape, they're both out on tape and video, and basically you have to go back, as soon as the boat comes through docks the next person picks it up and goes, so you've got very little time to pick up information , and all the time you can't go in, and the clock's going , and the clock's going and you switch , and they said it was , next to you, they said it such a +Can you buy that then? +Yes, it's about twenty pounds but it's X rated. +Are we going to prepared to start that then, I'll say we started, I make it, I make it dead on twenty five to now, but if we go by that clock, and if everybody goes by that one it's probably easier, because that's between twenty five to, so if we make it about eighteen minutes past. +No but if it's like, not been part of +Alright, so do you want to start now. +Right as you know I'm the head of a major advertising company. +We've been approached by er, the local county who wish to er, make up some radio from the er agency. +, surprise, surprise. +Okay. +What, in order to decide whether they're going to give us the contract what they have asked us to do is prepare a thirty minute radio, sorry thirty second radio presentation and we will re , record for them and they will hear, which we want to emphasise based on how good that was whether they want to take the contract out with us. +Okay, is everybody clear on that? +Here's the , to go on. +It can be anything real or imaginary. +The only precondition we've got on that , is that it's got to be thirty seconds long, we can use whatever sound effects we like, we really, to begin with, we have got to have scripts, everybody here takes part in it has got to have a script first, +Yes, now what I'm saying is I mean there's going to be, there's four of us, they're five of us here, taking part in the exercise, yes? +So if four of us were to work on it as a group , +Two of yous do the script together +Right so are we, are we going to, do the script, is one person going to read it all out, or are we going to go round and? +Let the manager decide. +Fair enough, I shall read out the script . +Yes, yes, maybe. +So if we three start into that . +National Children's Homes,, yes, founded in eighteen sixty nine, C H, children's health, and associated with children's charities, we work with, among others children with disabilities, sexually abused children, homeless young people,. +Throughout England there are projects nationwide, they need practical support, counselling, and specialist treatment, but above all there are sixteen thousand children a year that hope for a better future. +That's a better +right, what I would suggest, is somebody take , what I was going to say is if you time me reading this, okay we get an idea of how long exactly we need to make . +Founded in eighteen sixty nine, N C H , is Britain's second largest children's charity. +We work with among others, children with disabilities, sexually abused children, homeless young people, and . +Through our two hundred projects nationwide we give practical support, counselling, and specialist treatment, but above all we give sixteen thousand children a year the hope for a better future. +Please support us in our year, N C H, a charity for children . +What, what ideas are need getting across, how, what, what the charity does, how the er, how the charity does it, and how we can help. +That's three priorities in that order. +So I think first of all we need to, need to introduce what the charity is and who, who they're going to be benefitting. +I think we'll along with a . +Well we don't have an idea on this. +No. +What does it say in the advert? +You said it +Who we worked for, so that you introduce the charity, who we work for erm, +Right, well what did that, question one what charity d , what the charity does right. +Yes, okay, anything like that, caring, caring for children, helping children +Not really no,so what we're doing now, we don't want to get too carried away with one, one title, we've got to try and find things to say how we're going to achieve it. +We, we've got the how you can help section here, but we've got nothing at all about what the charity does and how it does it, yes we need some appropriate words for getting the idea that they're helping children. +yes, then there's the , yes, what that says, at the top, so you can announce what the aim of the campaign is. +Can we get help , for the best possible start, we want , something like that, so we're saying, help us to do this, that's how we're getting across the idea they're erm, how they're going about it. +Erm, you could say worse, I suppose you could cheat, but erm, +Okay I want,, research, help us, erm, help erm, help us give something like that, help us give a best possible start to them, help us give them, to help us, to them, +Okay time is up. +You can stop now please. +Okay then, +, +, and all the jokes and chuck all your scraps away first. +Where's the bin? +Are you alright there? +Right so what we'll do first of all is get you to your results, and then as each end , we'll get the observers to make their comments. +So who wants to go first? +I think we'll go first if you like. +Yes,, you may as well stay there if you like or you can come down or +, +Set time. +I am +I am Julias Denton for homes for the children's charity. +Our aim is to build one hundred new homes for our homeless children. +Children are all our responsibilities, please support the children's, +The kids, +, home,. +Right, very good, thank you. +Phil, you're next. +Okay. +Go on then. +End of Side One. +, +Shall I bring it down here then, bring it over to there and +Yesterday, ten thousand children were killed. +Richard Branson saved us over the boredom. +Just to survive we need your cash today. +Our trip is vital for charity. +Please support us on the hot-line , in hope. +Mm, thank you, it's very nice. +Oh, I'm not too sure, +We're the National Children's Home, Action for Children. +There is way you can help improve research, we need to give the best possible start to kids. +If you care to help rescue children with disabilities and teenagers who suffer abuse we want you to say yes, and to help get eight hundred million pounds +Phone now on , with your credit card or visa, or contact your nearest National Westminster Bank. +Very good. +yes, thank you very much. +, +They were all very good. +Okay then, which observer wants to observe or come out with +I don't mind. +Okay then, Hannah, what, what happened in your group? +Right, do you want me to go through every point? +Well erm, +Erm, we had a , +A couple of tears and so on +Yes, go through the first five minutes, there were all different tasks, erm, at first, the girls were making up a basic jingle that would be about thirty seconds, and everyone else was looking through to see what words they should use. +And Tracy had already, no, they'd all decided what charity it'd be, Tracy asked what they suggested, so she's democratic. +Erm, they all suggested that it should be something like famine. +And then they started looking for words that might be relevant so that's quite good. +Erm,they put the bit of paper in the middle with the suggestion type of thing that they were , and then they all looked for words, erm,then Ian and Deborah arranged the words on the paper to start ar , rearranging the jingle so that the words that they had, they used their resources like that, and anything else. +Tracy was keeping an eye on the time all the time, they didn't rehearse it , none at all. +Was that because of lack of time? +Yes. +At first they were very calm and at the end, at the end there was a big panic that they was, they were all talking over each other, there was no control, you know, it was a bit rushed at the end, but, that wasn't because it was bad planning, it was just they were panicked at the end. +It was more difficult than we thought. +They should have had more definite targets, because it was a bit, everyone, at one point everyone was doing the same thing,, through the words which +Why was that? +Pardon? +Why was that, was that because it ? +Because it, it's terrifying looking at a blank piece of paper when we needed ways to start the comment. +yes +So we had to get some ways to try and get something down. +They all had an input, and Tracy kept them a lot. +Erm, as I say, she's like, she's very democratic, and she's always asking them what they felt how, how they felt they should tackle it, I mean They hadn't decided what the message should be +Overall, if you had to comment, how do you think it went? +It was good, apart from the end. +And then there was panic because there was no time in the end. +Thank you very much that group. +Next group,, okay, +Erm, I came down and explained what the nature was, what you wanted to be done, you didn't really explain why and how important that our was, which I felt , that he said what he needing doing, he said what resources he had, and he said that, he didn't really set tasks erm, but he did ask them what they thought they should do you know. +Erm, +That's good. +Sorry? +That's what I was going to say. +Yes, you set tasks, but by erm, Dave, not by Ian. +Erm, at the start it was a bit higgledy-piggly, they didn't really know what they was doing, I felt anyway. +And they didn't really decide on what the message was going to be, erm, they just decided to start checking lines, getting words out on what the charity was going to be, they split that up quite well. +Erm, I felt that that Tony was getting a bit frustrated +It was +There was no +Yes, I stopped, like. +There was no teamwork really to start with. +He was getting a bit frustrated, they didn't really know what they were supposed to be doing. +Towards the end it got better though, and they got the time right, we timed it towards the end and the wording was right, so it got better towards the end. +Okay +Erm,yes, and that was it really, at first the , and then it went through, and it was alright at the end. +So it was +Yes, it was quite bad to start with, quite poor teamwork, and there was no +That's what, that's how I felt was happening. +We were given tasks, but then the tasks had been given to certain people like yourself, starting to want to do the other things, that other people were doing, and then everybody wanted to do instead of doing the tasks that they were set. +Yes, that's what I mean. +There was quite a lot pressure and half the team weren't listening to what Ian was saying at that so +Alright so, there was a bit of competition between +Nobody , at the end +When we asked for a script from that side from the beginning, it didn't come. +Well no because we hadn't , us, given us any ideas, towards the end it got better, and they were. +Towards the end it got better and they worked, it was a bad start, but it got better towards the end. +And we actually got all the words out. +We got the words up there and timed it right and everything and then a rehearsal was done. +Okay, okay, thank you very much. +It was very confusing,key words, when we started using key words and when we asked because something wasn't there, and we consulted the script, we were still cutting words out, but, at, the script was definite, but sort of like, two of them well they had doubts, and like we started cutting words out, and then like, the words that were out . +Ian started on the script +, there were some use of that to begin with, the key words a lot, maybe got stuck on the piece of paper because +Maybe not according to, +We're all pulling together. +What about your team Terry? +I think you, you're +Er, right, everybody seemed , and getting it follow it by, erm, the first stage of the planning, erm, did the manager clearly understand the nature of the situation? +Erm, I feel that she'd read the brief but hadn't studied it, because she, she went back to half way through, and er, looked at the objectives. +Erm, she established the objective, not autocratically, but democratically, erm, there were all sorts, the resources available,what we have, yes, that's not a problem, but the, at the same time, the rest of the group went to establishing the objective, and there was a lot of over-talking by people, and I feel that she didn't control it and say, look this is what we're going to do now. +Then we didn't achieve, we're didn't produce a work plan or organiser, we went straight in, people were hacking out bits of papers, you know, it ended up as a big pile of words you know. +So,, he took on the task of er, writing the script off his own bat, he wasn't appointed to it, er, but he stuck with that throughout, and erm, he stuck to his objective. +Erm, he organised the coordinating, after a while she did actually stop them after five minutes and explain the time situation, er, the final objective were the constraints. +There was no really interaction on that on anybody's part. +Er, nobody looked at the time which, which did cause a problem. +yes, we did +You were looking at the time, but it didn't come up, I mean. +We did yes, we mentioned it, I mentioned. +Yes, you mentioned it a couple of times, put there was no-one really keeping a watch on the clock. +Not, not that I saw. +Can I? +, +, there's eleven minutes to go, and literally everyone starts panicking. +You know everyone's like , +, +It says it really doesn't it? +, +Alright then, moving on, moving totally on. +Yes, er. +Alternate feedback. +Yes, but not on an on-going basis. +It happened a couple of times,, the exercise. +If puzzled. +Okay, well I did try to motivate them, motivate them to make the most of each person's individual skills. +Er, people chose what they wanted to do. +Erm, +I cheated. +Shit, look Joe, you speak to her, you sit and talking across her,, she's talking to Sharon, you know that, that's all the way through it +Come on,, alright, alright. +I love you too. +Erm, +Come on Gary. +Erm, good point, she did er, give them letters and she told other people to contribute, she erm, she at one stage ask everybody what they, what the record was. +Er, the main problem was the time constraint. +There was five minutes to go, +Right. +And we're still, you know, fighting about changing the script and what have you. +But they, they did come up with the work on the results, and then they, they did get time to plan it. +Right. +And they rehearsed it as well. +Er, although Shirley, she took over the ro , erm, she took the role half way through of down on the floor splitting things up things over, er, the rest of them were cutting out words and what have you, and writing out the script the way they wanted it, and she just stuck them on the floor,, and they changed the script, so in that respect she was +They changed the script once +Yes, no, I mean +It depends how you , +, ah no, but you, but you weren't aware of that because you were on the floor, as I was saying five minutes ago. +, I don't want all that over here. +Erm, I mean, all in all they did, they did get the final result, the scene came together right from the last eleven minutes to achieve the result, but it was just there was a lot of confusion at the beginning of the start. +Right, okay, well thanks very much, if you'd like to get tables back +, +Is there a pair of scissors anywhere? +A pair of scissors? +yes. +Well quite an interesting exercise I think? +, I hope you're not , well several interesting things have come out of there, it just shows the sort of thing about working under pressure, and the limited amount of time, erm, the limited amount of planning time for the managers certainly. +Erm, if the man , who were the managers? +Ian, you were one,, and Tracy, if you could just say a few words. +What did you find were the difficulties and how did it go really? +Erm, I thought mine, when I came back and I briefed everybody so that they all knew what was going on +Yes +Erm, then I think it probably had us confused for a while, whilst we were just trying to decide who should do writing and who should do what, but then I decided I'd chose two people, and then we started cutting things out so then that, that went okay then. +Erm, then we all just worked at getting pieces out on paper, all that was going fine, and then I assigned two more people to stick all the pieces together and trying to create sentences from it, and I think the only time that I, we lost it was like, right at the end we were like looking for a few words to make our sentences make sense. +And so we were panicking a bit, because we were just trying to get there, but apart from that, I think it went okay. +Like we, we didn't have any arguments amongst the group, I mean I was, everybody was quite willing to do everything, everybody was helpful, came up with suggestions. +So it was okay. +Okay, what about you Ian? +No, no go on. +What did you think, we actually got on very well, I mean I thought we worked quite well together as a team. +We did, yes. +yes +We erm, given that you have to do, okay, I didn't brief them as fully as I could of, and half way through I looked at it again just to make sure I hadn't missed the bottom line that said, you know stand on your head instead in the park, so I just had a little read. +And we made within two minutes to sort out what we were going to, or we decided what charity first, then we decided two would decide on the script while the others cut out relevant pieces that we thought might be useful words. +And then when the sc , we had a look at the script and we changed it a little bit, and then we all went, they were cutting out words, so we were doing, the first few all three ways, and we'd look and say, okay, so it was a scrambled mess as we all looked through for three words and ended up with , and I got down on the floor, so we knew where we were. +And then we changed things like the name because we found somebody's name in all these words, somebody , and we just sellotaped it down, and at the end when we were running out of time, and we did about three times have a look at the time, we did change the script slightly to fit the words that we'd found so we had responsibilities instead of, I don't know what it was, but instead of another words, just because we'd found it. +And we just changed it again. +But once I think we were, we were going in a mad rush er, each saw his responsibilities for that word, and that'll do, and then we'd say yes, and stuck it here. +In terms of managing the time, did you feel it worked quite well? +yes, I mean we got the end result, +Yes +Okay we changed a few words just to fit the words we could find, but yes, we, we had about a minute at the end, we read it through, and yes, it was fine. +I thought we worked alright together. +Okay. +Sorry, can I just make one small comment on that? +Pardon? +Can I just +, +You, you did actually, again it's the time thing, yes. +Originally you weren't really looking at it, five of you all fell into the same trap, you know, they, they get half way through, and they did have something to do and they did sort of start rushing. +, +Okay then, let's leave that there, and then talked about that at tea, and you can have a talk about it then. +Come on Ian. +Well I have to admit, with our group, the first ten minutes or was a little bit disorganised because I felt we, I came in, we set down the objects, I felt we did that well, and we were clear of the timescale from the very beginning. +We decided quite soon which charity we were going to go for, and we divided up. +I mean, I had Tony to go through and find key words that we knew we were going to need, you know, simple words like the, of, with, a, that sort of thing, that we knew that okay, we wouldn't use immediately, but we'd look, ah there that goes there, and use it straight away. +Erm, we set tasks that erm, two people were supposed to be working on the script while two people looked through the paper. +Now I think what te , what happened there was we er, we drifted away from setting down sc , er, er, scripts to finding good useful key words and phrases out of the paper that we could then fit into the script, and as it had gone that way, I realised it was working, and didn't see any point in trying to get it back to the way it was originally going, because it was going fine. +Erm, we had an example advert early on that we actually read through, for the simple reason of finding how long it was going to take, so we had a target as to how long we needed the advert to be very early on and we could work to that. +Erm, we carried on, er, it got better as it went on. +Tony wasn't impressed a little bit, but a little, a little gee up and we were away again. +Erm, I felt that er, we had plenty of time at the end, I mean we, we tried only three times to get it right, and it was okay, and I felt we worked well as a team in that amount of time. +Alright well, generally then I think from hearing what you're saying, erm, some good points, some perhaps things that you'd do differently next time, and then what it obviously says about you is that, you're all managers and you all have different styles, and you possibly do things in different ways. +And you've been in a scenario where there's one manager and there's a few people who aren't in a managing role, but you are actually managers , maybe they'd like a little reversal, I mean, I think some good things have come out of that, and possibly things that you'd do better next time. +We all achieved the target +Yes, you all did really well . +Yes, thank you Stephen. +Yes, perhaps you'd +We all achieved the end result. +Everyone's just trying the same situation. +And they thought +Yes, patches of chaos, possibly in the disorganisation, but you got there in the end. +Erm, I think what we'll do now is have a quick cup of tea, a nice friendly, smiley , cup of tea, +And then I want you to meet, I want you to be back here by quarter to four. +It's called time , it gives you a little space at the top so you can fill in what you feel to be your role, and if you can fill below, all the tasks in respective order that you do in a typical day. +Right, so a complete brainstorm, and we'll start again, and we'll come back to those in a little while. +We're going to spend the rest of the session on time management. +We're going to talk about three methods of managing your time. +The first of those is delegation, a much talked about subject. +Erm, how many of you delegate? +Yes +Yes, the vast majority? +How do you go about that, and what sort of things do you delegate? +I look at all the jobs that's got, that have to be done in the day, right, and look at which ones I should do, and then all the other jobs I just share out between the relevant people. +Right, is there any kind of pattern to that, or is it on a daily basis that you do that? +No, certain things, certain specific jobs are set to certain people. +Such as? +That are on-going. +One of my, my senior section manager does till results, anything to do with till results, my section manager does scheduling. +Another section manager does something else, and they do that every week. +Okay, does that, and you find that that works well? +Mm, very well. +Er, what kind of checks to do have, do you have to keep on that? +About once every week I'll check that everything's been done. +Well, with the scheduling obviously it's checked every day, but erm, things like till results, I check every week to make sure it's been, if she's been, but she's really good so, so I just have to check up. +What they did at a branch on our district erm, again it was just like set up, people were given specific tasks, but at the end of the three month cycle, they'd change some people, er, those people's tasks so that they, so they wouldn't get stagnant, and plus, if one person was off, if you happened to be on holiday, you've got somebody else that can do the job at the standard and not let the standard fall. +So you're not just reliant on one person, and if that person's away you're stuck. +Anybody else delegate? +Delegates? +I think everybody does throughout the course of the day without even realising anyway, do they? +Certainly, the only go , the only way I run a shift , the way she runs checkouts, is erm, by going, you, it's the same thing every day, you've got to run through everything on the same point order, because you know, you've been doing it, it's got to be done at the same time, like bread the last lot's got to be on by four. +Erm, so you, it's one of the second, third things to look at when I, I start at three fifteen, it's the third thing I do. +The first thing I do is check the stocks, followed by date returns and er, you know, erm, get that done,out of the way, and start looking at the , of the night , and what have you, setting that up, and maybe the late night process, hand over from the branch manager, walk round doing any detail he wants me to do, and hand over from late nights. +Department managers, new checkouts, do all the bits and pieces on , and wanted me to do, while I wait for the shift to come in, and they start at seven. +Er, keep an eye on them, I'll have a bit of replenishment here and then, erm, so he's, until eight o'clock, and then you get everything pulled out. +Erm, replenishment until ten o'clock, er, get the warehouse , get the clear-out underway. +So where do you actually delegate within that? +To the er, because there's no other management in the place, you just delegate to another member of staff. +And is that er, do you have one person that you allocate specific tasks or do you go on a daily basis. +Er, it's like, it's like the foreman on the shopfloor for some reason, there's a er, in the systems or whatever, er, the warehouseman er, the night porter er, when he takes over, he knows what he's doing, he knows what I want, because I've spoken to him about it, erm, he knows what items I want to leave for stock people, erm, and Sue, the checkout manager, she'll know if I want extra people on the shopfloor because we're quiet, or I expect it to be quiet, erm, she knows where they've got to be, and I'll come back and review it with her. +Okay, anybody else delegate? +Yes, well how do you do it Teddy? +Well it's, you go in in the morning, and it's the same jobs every day really basically. +Erm, the , I first tell people what to do because they all know their roles, and when you go in in the morning, and you're just basically going round checking that they've already done it all. +Okay +Erm, if there's something needs doing extra you just ask the person who's best for the job to sort it out and to do it for you. +So your role is more a checking and writing one, similar to what Helen. +Yes, well with the staff I've got, yes, they're all there. +At night-times I've got my jobs to get stuck into on the shopfloor as well, just hope that everybody works as a strong team basically. +Yes, does anybody here not delegate? +I did delegate, but I won't do it now, I do literally +Say that again, I missed that. +Er, I sorry,, just clearing my throat, er, I did, I did delegate if somebody put it on the end of somebody's assignment, then I to it, but I tend to find I underestimate what people can do for me all the time, and don't identify just how much those people can give me back, and I did, or I do have a tendency at times to give people like before, to hold on too much, try and do too much myself, and er, you can't do it that way in case. +But once you've, you've got to know your people better, develop your people better. +Right. +It's something I've got to work on. +To decide for yourself what they're capable of. +Why, does anybody else find difficulty with delegating. +No, I was just going to say that if, if you try it once, you know, you know if they can do it, they'll be . +Oh, yes. +I was going to say, I like to set somebody task as they're down for, and I look for it, and nine times out of ten you'll find out if they can achieve that very shortly, very fast. +And if they cannae cope with it, they'll come to, or the majority will come and say look I cannae do it. +If it's something silly, that they haven't been trained for, but most jobs you can delegate and they'll do it just as well as you. +It's just a matter of having confidence in them to do that. +Since, since Norwich, you just can't delegate like erm, you just ha , you don't have any other management there, only section managers, and you delegate that job to er, supervisors, erm, it's a very on-hands management situation. +You can delegate to anybody can't you. +You can delegate your staff as well. +Yes, yes, fair enough, but erm, +Depending on the task, it depends what the job is. +Yes, I mean, like I mean making late payments, I'm delegating people to fill up those late payment. +Okay, it's delegation, but it's not erm, the sort of like, a responsible job if you see what I mean, it's a job that they're employed to do anyway, but it's not a separate sort of task. +Yes, okay. +What's the difference between delegating and abdicating? +Delegate erm, you can delegate the job, but you can't delegate the responsibility. +Right, so when you delegate, what are you delegating? +Specific tasks, the physical +But when you delegate that task is there anything that you retain? +The responsibility that it's being done right. +Right, and who is ultimately accountable? +Yourself. +Yes, right, okay. +When we're talking about delegating tasks, I think tasks can be almost categorised into two clear sections. +Has anybody heard about how tasks can be categoried? +I think they mentioned it on the video. +Urgent and important. +Right, then there's that which we're going to come onto in a minute +It's active, isn't it, instead of reactive +Reactive, yes. +Can you erm, explain what a reactive task is, Tracy? +It's something you haven't got planned into your day, isn't it, it's something that comes up, and you, you have to respond to it, so you have to have time between the day, to be able to do those things. +Okay, can you give an example? +Erm, it's like to keep my day planned out but, like the district manager might walk in or people might go off sick, and then you have to fill somebody in to that position. +Things that you just don't think are going to happen +So you act +Especially management goes down ill or something. +Okay, so they're unexpected can you thing of any, er, another kind of way of erm, other tasks that possibly could be described as reactive tasks? +I've got customer experience. +Pardon? +Customer experience. +So you've got customer query, or something like that. +yes +The bakery , and you're expecting a delivery, especially like on produce, and then you have to go off , or something like that, get people stacking right up. +Okay, what about erm, if the opposite, I mean if we've got reactive tasks, what's the opposite of that? +Proactive +Proactive, or possibly just active. +And how would you describe an active task? +Something you do every day anyway. +Right so they're regular, +Regular, yes. +What do they do for your department? +I mean that, can you think of examples of active tasks? +cleaning, checks +Till checks, right, interesting that you should say that. +Erm, just filling up shelves. +yes, interesting you should say that, because the definition I had was something quite the reverse. +Many of these are planned for, isn't it, you might do it every day, but you've planned for it, +Right, +So you, you'll be able to do it every Monday, but you've planned for it on Monday, you know who's going to do it, and they, you know, it's set up. +Okay, so it's something right. +The way I would possibly define active and reactive, I would see active as things that actually take your department forward a step. +They are things that you do which actually improve your department both in the short and in the long-term. +The long-term specifically. +Things like okay, ordering possibly could be reactive and active, because yes, it's something that has to be done every day, but if your order in spot on, that is an active task, it would improve and benefit to your, you would say that that,. +Whereas reactive, I think one typical task that's a reactive task which is yes, it's unexpected or whatever, is cardboard collecting, because it's the type of thing that happens regularly, but it doesn't actually get your department, it doesn't +It doesn't achieve anything. +No, in a day you do now, then later you've got to do it again. +It's one of those mundane tasks. +yes I mean, can you think of any, I mean, putting that kind of interpretation on it, can you think of anything else other than cardboard collecting. +Tidying the cabinets, dressing them down . +solids. +Do you often find yourself doing these tasks? +All day long. +All day long, right. +And most of the night. +One, I think one of the tasks that you find branch managers doing on a fairly regular basis is collecting cardboard. +What? +Some of them do. +My branch manager does it all the time. +Yes, my branch manager does it all the time, yes, it's his regular way out. +It's escapism. +Escapism, exactly, you've hit the nail on the head there Dee, escapism. +It's a comfort blanket, that's what it is, when you see your branch manager collecting cardboard, it's usually because he's feeling a bit stressed out. +No, it's just because he's lazy. +It could be just because he's lazy. +Alright, what about, when you mentioned as well, we've got reactive and we've got active tasks. +What about, you said something about, somebody mentioned important and urgent tasks? +Who said that? +I did. +Yes, what do you see as those being? +Well urgent tasks would be tasks that are done at that time, to complete them. +So urgent equals time +Equals time limit. +limit and I mean, urgent is now isn't it, +Yes +It's to be done A S A P. +What about important? +Important, it has to be done, but it's not as, it's not as important as the urgent. +Is that, is that right, what do the rest of think? +No, it needs to be done but it's something that +It needs to be done but do you know what I mean, if you don't your important things on time they become urgent +yes, yes. +No, because things come up unexpectedly, so things will become urgent that maybe you didn't think were important, but have just suddenly emerged. +Do you know what I mean? +Unexpected things that emerging you have to do there and then, like +The whole day's important isn't it? +The whole day's important. +Yes, everything, a lot of things are important, and what you're saying is true Alex, that if you do the important things when you should do them, they won't become urgent, but equally what Tracy says is that, is true is that you will get unexpected things cropping up where you have to drop everything. +I tell what is urgent is a message coming down to you, you've had a delivery team, they're going to destroy cases of whatever, so that's urgent, that has to be done there and then because it's a danger to the public or whatever. +So that's important. +And then you've got emergencies. +How long, I mean, how, in terms of, in terms of time that you spend on urgent or important tasks, how long do you think an urgent task may take? +Not long, not very long. +So it's relatively short? +And what about important? +You might take your time on that, more time. +So it could be something that's rather time consuming? +Can things be both urgent and important. +What can you think of that possibly is? +Well your could be important first thing in the morning today, as you're sidetracked into doing other things, then it becomes urgent doesn't it, if you've had to reposition your , and whatever. +Right. +What I'd like you to do, is to have a look at your time , one, and first of all see notes down on it, make a note beside each task that you've got on there, whether it's active or reactive. +Bearing in mind that active are things that take your time forward, in the long-term, reactive are things like scale checks, you know you're daily, fairly monotonous tasks like that. +Aren't some, some of them both? +Sorry? +Aren't some of them both? +Er, that's a possibility yes? +You know you could say these scale checks, they're , but they're still urgent to be done. +The, they're still, they're, they're not active in that they don't actually progress your department do they? +If your scales are wrong you're not progressing are you? +No, but we're not, we're not arguing that they're not working. +Just classify them as being reactive and active, by them. +Totally monotonous +It tends to be the case that when a task is identified as being reactive you can usually delegate it down, because it's very, it's a monotonous, everyday task, it doesn't actually move the department forward. +It's not strictly a managerial task. +Has anybody got any reactive tasks on their lists? +Yes +Yes +Well shout out a few. +Not, not as many as active though, because you could say that stock checks and checks are reactive because you're doing it every day but, stock checks move the department forward on your stock reports. +Right. +But you could delegate it down couldn't you. +I mean, I would say the overseeing of that, and trying to improve your stock results erm, as a key result area, is the active part of it, but the actual everyday doing those checks, you can delegate that down. +So reactive, you delegate down +I would have said in the, in the large part. +Why have you got any down there? +Butchering's a tasty part of , if I wanted to do anything I'd take a leaf out of, I would say is that, but I delegate down through the butchers. +Cutting meat? +Do you like it? +Yes. +Would you say that cutting meat and getting it on the shelf every day, takes your department forward? +Yes, yes. +It's just an everyday task. +I would agree with you yes, +An everyday task is something that you have to do every day, so +No, no I'd agree with you, because to me pricing is, is active or whatever it is +You couldn't wait, +That's priority, that's got to be. +No it isn't because it's a day to day activity. +Yes but it's all based down on cutting more. +What you've done is there, you've, you've, you've done your cutting programme, and then you delegate, yes, but the actual cutting, give that to the butchers. +Yes. +So the programme's the bit that you do, and then to them basically just cutting it, while it's still down, you were still , the awkward thing is +both +Which bit are you doing Kenny, you do the actual, you plan the, what did you call it? +The? +The cutting programme. +The cutting programme, and you cut the meat. +I cut the meat, yes. +But do you cut meat? +Yes, Friday and Saturday I do. +But why? +Delegate to someone else? +Because we haven't got the staff to do it. +Right. +It's the same for the provisions manager, they have the same kind of thing isn't it. +But it could be delegated. +Cut meat brings my department forward, and if I don't cut that meat, and don't build up slowly upwards, therefore my department's going to stand still isn't it? +What do the rest of you think? +I agree with him, I agree. +I mean do you think that the actual cutting of the meat should be a managerial task? +No +No, I don't, but who else is going to do it, if I don't do it? +Yes, I agreed. +Okay, we've got two issues here. +If you've got a situation where you're the only person around well yes, obviously you're going to have to do it, and you can't, you're not in a position where you're able to delegate. +But I would have said that something like cutting meat, if you've got butchers around, it's not something that you would be, you should be spending your time doing. +That is normal, it happens all the time. +You, if you had something more to do, you wouldn't be cutting meat though? +I'd rather be, on Sundays, cutting meat, wrapping meat, packing meat,and doing the same for everybody else. +Yes there's a situation where you get +There's nobody else there. +Yes, but we, we're talking about the days when you do have other people available, what would you spend your time doing? +Cutting meat. +That excuses my question, like you're going down your priorities, you take , and in the low branches, we still have the same old jobs to do, there's the stocktaking, X thousands of pounds. +Yes, oh no, I agree with that, but when you're cutting the meat, what are your butchers doing? +My butchers are not there. +No but we're talking about the days when your butchers are there. +What am I doing then, I'm filling the shelves. +What does the rest of you think? +Think they like, cutting meat isn't taking his department forward, it's an everyday activity. +If he took more staff on and they were say filling up provisions, putting the pies out every day is taking the department forward, it's an everyday task. +Order it correctly in the first place. +Right. +If the manager's department. +If you order it correctly, then your staff can function on a daily basis. +It's when you don't order it correctly, it's when you go wrong. +If you get your books right, it'll all happen on the shopfloor. +Say that again? +If you get your books right, it'll all happen out on the shopfloor, all the manager has to do. +Because that's what you're expecting them to do. +Yes, but that's not, not what a regional manager's supposed to do. +A regional manager spends more time , you know, okay, it's a little bit longer, I deal with more lines than you, the pressure is far , you know, every branch manager I know, the guy's got to believe that they'll get staff from somewhere, it's just as long as they get the order in and the availability right. +Does anybody else have reactive tasks on their list? +I've had during the week which are shopfloors, bullets, that sort of thing. +Which tasks do you have Donna? +Thing like checking recipes through the post, and things like that. +So a lot of mine are reactive because I just haven't got any staff. +No, but if you had the staff, I mean we're talking about a hypothetical situation, would you still try doing that? +No, I'd give that up any day. +Okay, does anybody find themselves doing reactive tasks when possibly they do have the staff? +yes +There are certain things like active, that I actually do throughout the branch as well. +I mean I could quite easily delegate it out, but I can't because it's a management function, so , I've got to be the one that's got to walk round the branch for half an hour, taking twelve blocks off, checking all the sealed . +So that's actually within procedure that you have to do that. +Yes it is. +Okay, so that's obviously you're then able to delegate. +I think you're, you're often asked to do reactive tasks when I've done all my tasks, you know I've got all my staff doing this, and then I've got to help down on the shopfloor, and it's not that I'm doing something that I'm, you know, I should be doing as a manager, it's that I've done all of mine, and I'm going out to give them a hand. +If I had, if I had more pressing tasks personally, I wouldn't be doing it. +yes. +I think erm, shifts differ slightly through other departments, in the sense that it is only there for one day. +The only thing that you can really do to take yourself forwards in a shift situation is your scheduling for the following week. +You know, er, right look at previous weeks, with, you know, er, branch to mind the er, the account for the kind of day is er, the account is probably pretty much the same as it was the previous week. +There's very little chance of it catching unawares. +Er, but I mean, everything you do is, is designed to set yourself up in the best possible position for when the staff come in and, and throughout the shift leaving it as best you can for the branch manager the next day. +It, it's all reactive to that day, in that there's very, very little in carrying you forward. +Yes, some of the departments, some department managers I think have more erm, their goals tend to be more short-term possibly than longer term. +Yes, the same thing is like erm, if I do , the rest of the shop for the rest of the d , that day, but I do goods the next night, erm, that shop's okay for the next day, and it's, it's only like on a one day basis. +Mm, yes, okay. +So active is a job that gets done on a daily basis every day? +No +No, not necessarily , no, an active task is something that takes your department forward, actively improves the way your department runs, which could be something like. + +interest rates, will Britain do the same? +And twentieth Century technology rebuilds the glory that was Rome. +police have launched a murder enquiry following the killing of a community policeman and another man in South London last night. +P C Patrick Dunn had been called to a minor disturbance at a house in Clapham. +In what police say was a tragic coincidence, gunfire was heard from a house across the street. +He went to investigate and was murdered. +His killers are said to have run off laughing. +The other man was found dead nearby, he too had been shot in what may have been a drugs related killing. +Police are tonight questioning three men. +Home beat police constable Patrick Dunn didn't have to deal with the reported disturbance last night, at twenty eight Cato Road Clapham, but knowing the area, he said he'd go, on his bicycle as ever. +While there he heard shots from across the road at number thirty one, stepped out to investigate and by what the Metropolitan police Commissioner called a tragic coincidence of events, was shot dead almost immediately by one of three men. +Another man, apparently the victim of a drugs dispute, had been shot dead inside thirty one. +A police surveillance operation had been taking place at the house, though not last night. +Patrick Dunn was unmarried, forty four and came to the police late after a teaching career. +As floral tributes built up, it became evident how much he was held in affection and esteem by local people. +He was loved so much, it's unbelievable that it's happened. +It really is. +He helped everybody in the local community. +You know, in my opinion it's like I've lost one of my own family. +P C Dunn's boss, the Metropolitan police Commissioner, paid this tribute to the dead constable. +He was a good, honest, kind, gentle local bobby. +Er doing what the Met does best, doing what British policing does best, working with his local community. +He was a total gentleman. +There's just there's just no other words to describe them. +A man who cared about what he did. +A very well liked man in the community, a very well liked man at the station and erm I I can't speak highly enough of the man. +This afternoon, P C Dunn's brother Ivan described Patrick's qualities. +He could deal with people, erm he could communicate with people, he was always there to help with our problems and I'm sure he felt that he could help erm you know the community and and the beat that on which he was a home beat officer. +In his earlier career, Patrick Dunn taught maths and was responsible for the welfare of fifth formers at this school in Bolton. +A former colleague explained why he left for the police. +He noticed as we'd all noticed that in in respect of law and order that things were really going from bad to worse, were deteriorating. +And it concerned him an awful lot and it it it irritated him and frustrated him and I think he set his sights on trying to do something about it in his his way. +This afternoon in Stockwell near the murder scene, three men were spotted in a Nissan car by a police foot patrol following a tip off. +They were stopped and arrested in a brief operation involving thirty police. +The vehicle was taken away for forensic tests. +This evening the men arrested are being questioned and police have appealed for witnesses who may have seen three men running from the area of the shooting last night. +Laurie Margolis, B B C News, Clapham, South London. +Police say a battle for territory between crack cocaine dealers has been behind a series of recent shootings in South London. +There have been four drugs related killings in the area this year. +P C Dunn's murder has again raised the question of whether more police should carry firearms. +Although Cato Road in Clapham is not a known haunt of crack dealers, police suspect it's the violence associated with this drug in particular, which has now claimed two more lives including that of a policeman. +The officer leading the murder hunt, used to head a special ongoing operation in South London, against so called yardie gangs from Jamaica. +Over the past three years, raids have been carried out as police target crack dealers who've been behind many shootings and violent assaults. +There have already been four drug related murders in South London this year, and more than seventy incidents involving firearms. +Experience in the capital and Manchester has shown, the level of violence linked to crack, make it very different from other drug trafficking. +What we've had in parts of London are so called turf wars between crack crack dealers, crack sellers, fighting for territory. +And we believe that several murders have been as a result of that sort of tension. +The police response to the increasing number of criminals prepared to use guns, has been to train firearms specialists and make sure they're available all the time at short notice. +In that sense, Britain already has an armed police force. +But drugs related crime is posing an ever bigger challenge. +Individual chief constables may in the light of particular circumstances, consider that their drugs officers should in fact be armed and that is for the decision for as I say the individual chief officer. +So there could be cases where officers on particularly dangerous assignments, need to be armed and in which case, they will be armed. +Few would favour police officers being armed as a matter of routine, but work at the sharp end is undoubtedly becoming sharper. +It reminds us of the deadly risks which our police officers run on on our behalf, day and night. +Er and I would want to express my deepest sympathy to police constable Dunn's family. +Er I'm sure that er the Metropolitan Police will be doing everything possible to track down those who are responsible for this evil act and bring them to justice. +Many police officers will want to remind the Home Secretary as he prepares his response to the Sheahy report that they take special risks and deserve special treatment. +Neil Bennet, B B C News. +Another man was shot dead in London this afternoon, it happened outside Shepherd's Bush underground station. +The victim, who's not been identified, was hit in the chest and died shortly afterwards. +His attacker ran off. +The area has been sealed off and police marksmen have surrounded a local shop. +No motive has been established for the attack. +The chief inspector of prisons, Judge Stephen Tumim, has published a damning report into the causes of the riot at Wymott prison in Lancashire last month. +He said the prison was close to anarchy and it was widely known that there was a strong risk of violence. +It's estimated that the riot at the low security jail caused damage costing twenty million pounds. +The Wymott disturbances lasted eight hours. +Four hundred prisoners were involved in the worst prison rioting since Strangeways. +Fortunately no-one was seriously hurt and no inmate escaped but the risk of trouble had been spotted and little done to stop it. +That night, just seven prison officers were coping with seven hundred and fifty inmates, many violent street gang criminals, involved with drugs and too dangerous for a low security jail. +There'd been incidents of violence between gangland type er warfare between inmates. +Manchester, Liverpool don't get on very well and there was a drugs problem, a very bad drugs problem er which had been brought in from their normal way of life outside. +The rioters wrecked accommodation blocks, workshops, and classrooms. +it will cost up to twenty million pounds to repair the destruction. +Judge Tumim went to inspect the jail next day, and he said his overwhelming impression was of the powerlessness of Wymott staff in the face of organized criminal activity. +In his report, Judge Tumim said the prison had been very close to anarchy in the months before the riot. +He said his original inspection had found a world of drugs, drug dealing and bullying. +And he described Wymott as, No more than an open prison with a fence around it. +Tonight the prison service reacted to Judge Tumim's report. +Of his forty seven recommendations for action at Wymott, thirty five were already being put into effect. +No further building will be commissioned without cellular accommodation. +So in other words, all new accommodation will be of a cellular type. +But it's the it's the present estate if you like, that will take us time. +Government figures released today show that like Wymott at the time of the riot, nearly a third of prisons in England and Wales are overcrowded, several housing seventy percent more prisoners than they were designed for. +But the prison service sees the underlying problem of drugs in the jails like Wymott, as a priority and action has already been initiated. +John Thorne, B B C News, Wymott Prison. +Business leaders here have welcomed an unexpected cut in Germany's main interest rate. +The Bundesbank reduced its discount rate by a half of one percent to five point seven five percent. +The move should help stimulate economies on the continent where recession has been weakening the market for British exports. +Germany's rate is now below Britain's and that's adding to pressure for a cut in rates here. +The news boosted shared prices to a new record. +The Bundesbank has never been an institution to bow to public pressure. +It's been slow to cut interest rates, believing Germany's four percent inflation is too high. +But with inflation there on its way down and the economy bumping along the bottom of a recession, the Bundesbank Council decided it could tolerate another downward step. +The city welcomed the move, believing the rate cut'll be followed throughout Europe, particularly on the continent where German decisions still dominate economic policy making. +Despite pressure from its European partners, Germany has only reduce its rates very slowly. +While Britain was in the E R M until September last year, our interest rates could never knowingly undercut those of Germany. +But when we left, our rates fell and they fell quickly. +Today's move means though that he German discount rate is below our base rate for the first time in a year. +So will Britain now follow the Germans down? +This latest cut does shift the balance of arguments in favour of reducing U K rates but there are other factors that the Chancellor will need to take into account. +If the recovery is faltering he'll clearly want to be more keen to cut interest rates, and also he'll want to take into account the effect of any tax increases he may introduce in his budget. +A rate cut would not be an easy decision. +The Bank of England which has less influence than its German counterpart has been reluctant to advise rate cuts over here. +The Bank is worried about inflation which has been edging up recently. +On the other hand, industry wants rates cut. +Car production and trade figures released today, highlight the difficulties that British manufacturers are having in selling their products overseas. +Lower interest rates would keep the pound down and keep exports competitive. +Most of the advice Kenneth Clarke's receiving is to cut rates, his job now is to decide whether Britain's economy is more in danger of boiling over or going off the boil completely. +Evan Davies, B B C News. +British U N Soldiers at a base in Central Bosnia have been forced to move out under heavy mortar fire. +More than two thirds of the troops at have withdrawn from the town leaving around seventy soldiers there. +The attack was launched by Croat soldiers on Muslim positions in which is on the front line between the opposing sides. +The main British base is thirty miles away Vitez. +From the area, our correspondent Alan Little reports. +It began with seven mortar rounds in quick succession, then shelling, often at the rate of one a minute for five hours with no let-up. +Take a look at the cook house, one British truck driver said, It's history. +An artillery shell struck here at breakfast time, but by now the base was on red alert, its soldiers under cover. +No-one was hurt. +Shortly after seven o'clock this morning the Bosnian Croats launched and attack on one of the suburbs of er and there was some intense fighting er in and around the Unprofor base. +We've evacuated er two thirds of the base er to a more secure area. +We'll just sit out the present fighting and see what happens. +Others were less sanguine. +These civilian truck drivers were among more than a hundred evacuated to safer positions. +They were glad to be out. +The Bosnian army were being pounded, they said. +soldiers down in a a wheelbarrow. +All the dead soldiers. +I've never seen anything like it in my life. +I don't want to see it again really. +A hundred and twenty eight soldiers and civilian staff were moved out on the order of the base commander, some showing the signs of their ordeal. +It is not the first time the British have found themselves in the path of an offensive, it is the first time they've evacuated, in such numbers and with such urgency. +lies on the most important aid route into Central Bosnia, which is why the British are here. +But while the battle goes on, the aid does not get through, and in Central Bosnia, a million and a half people depend upon it. +Alan Little, B B C News, near . +A woman who was in danger of losing her home after she mortgaged it as security for her husband's business debts, has won the right to keep it following a victory in the House of Lords. +Five Law Lords said, Banks must warn wives and partners of the risks they're taking before granting loans. +Bridget O'Brien's been fighting attempts by Barclay's Bank to repossess her home for five years and her legal victory was welcomed by others with similar problems. +The Law Lords found that she should have been fully informed by the bank that she was risking her whole house by guaranteeing a loan to her husband's business, not the limited amount she believed at the time. +And if some of you can do well out of it and it will help you keep your homes, because at the end of the day, without our home, where are we? +This is what it's all about. +Mrs O'Brien here at her home in Slough, was told by her husband that the loan back in nineteen eighty seven was only for sixty thousand pounds, the bank didn't correct this or give her independent advice. +The debt rose to a hundred and fifty thousand pounds and the bank obtained a repossession order. +Today's judgement means that banks in future must make sure a spouse or partner is directly informed of risks. +The judgement could help others whose homes are under threat for similar reasons. +It's affected my health, it's affected my family and erm everyday it's there. +You don't know whether y you just don't know what the future holds. +Banks now urge customers to seek independent legal advice before signing guarantees. +Banks haven't been pulling the wool over people's eyes by not telling them. +In fact for many years, the banks have been telling people to seek legal independent advice er since March nineteen ninety two, this has been a requirement of all loans. +Today's Law Lords judgement should keep Bridget O'Brien in her house, it will also mean that in future, a wife or partner only agrees to mortgage their home as security for a loan after being fully informed of the possible consequences. +Wesley Kerr, B B C News, at the House of Lords. +And the time is six sixteen and still to come, parents and teachers protest over plans to cut help for pupils whose first language isn't English. +And farm workers complain that sheep dips are damaging their health. +Hundreds of parents and teachers have lobbied Parliament to protest about the government's plan to cut help for pupils whose first language isn't English. +Campaigners say, four thousand specialist teaching jobs could go if the government reduces the grant for teaching English as a foreign language. +This is going to be your drum, now what about another drumstick? +Have you got +Anne Redding is a section eleven teacher, funded by a Home office scheme to promote racial equality, introduced by section eleven of the local government act. +She works alongside the class teacher, helping pupils who don't speak English as their first language. +Almost all the children in this school in Newham, East London, need help with their English. +Children here don't lack any sort of ability it's because th they English isn't their first language so they need support in learning English to help them with the everyday necessities of the national curriculum. +The government meets three quarters of the costs of section eleven projects, but that's being cut to half over the next two years. +in Newham, that could mean shedding over a quarter of its section eleven teachers. +Educationalists say that'll damage all pupils since, without support, class teachers won't be able to teach the rest of the class so effectively. +The effect on a school would be devastating erm the school has already lost one teacher, the s the actual demand is increasing erm if we were to lose yet another teacher then what would we would be denying is education to the children, the best possible education. +Which is what we're trying to provide. +Today, lobbyists gathered at Westminster warning thousands of section eleven jobs are threatened nationally, but the Home Office says painful decisions are necessary in the current public spending round. +At a time of heightened racial tension, cuts in English language support teaching are particularly sensitive. +many ear that when the Home office cuts its grant from next April, local authorities won't be able to make up the shortfall. +Mike Baker, B B C News, East London. +Joh Commonwealth leaders have been attending the first day of their summit in Cyprus and protests by Greek Cypriots. +Thousands of women formed a human chain along the route to Nicocea, where the opening ceremony was held, to protest against the Turkish occupation against the North of the island. +The summit will spend the next four days discussing issues ranging from the division of Cyprus to the war in Bosnia. +The Greek Cypriot hosts have hijacked the conference agenda. +Government heads driving to the Nicocea opening found the fifty mile route lined with women, hands linked in protest at the world's and especially Britain's failure to reverse the nineteen seventy four invasion which has left thirty seven percent of the island in Turkish hands. +Inside the conference hall, delegates were greeted with a highly unusual presentation mixing potent T V images of Hitler and the Holocaust, with flashbacks to that Turkish invasion. +Some resented President Clarides' propaganda coup, but other delegation heads were immediately swayed. +Why can't the same methods that were used by the Commonwealth yesterday vis a vis Rhodesia, vis a vis Namibia and vis a vis South Africa, not be applied in respect of the colonial and settlerist situation here. +Elsewhere, with many teachers engaged in the fifty mile protest, hundreds of youngsters used their day out to protest at the green line barrier separating Greek and Turkish communities. +Penetrating no man's land in a fracas which left three British U N peace keeping soldiers injured, before tear gas from the Greek police dispersed them. +Later John Major urged Commonwealth heads to drive on world trade talks and pledged a crusade to ease poor countries debts. +Apartheid arguments over, the Commonwealth's now seeking a new role spreading democracy, but the assembly lacks stars and so far the Cypriots have stolen the show. +Robin Oakley, B B C News, Cyprus. +John Prescot has been given one of the key posts in the new shadow cabinet. +He moves from transport to employment, swapping jobs with Frank Dobson. +But Harriet Harman stays as shadow Chief Secretary to the Treasury, despite being voted off the shadow cabinet by her fellow M Ps. +Our political correspondent John Sople, reports from Westminster. +For John Prescot today, not a discrete silence while waiting for the leader's call, he was making it clear that he wanted a swap to one of the top economic jobs. +And having saved John Smith's skin at the Labour party Conference, with his rumbustious performance in the one member, one vote debate, Mr Prescot knew he was in a position to call in his debts. +But tonight the new employment spokesman is putting a rather more modest gloss on it. +Well I didn't demand job, nobody demands of John Smith. +But I wanted to do employment, I want to get on with this kind of job, it's going to be a major political issue, and by God I'm gonna put it right up front. +The prediction had been that these elections would result in more women and fewer Scots around the shadow cabinet table as a result of the voting system. +But with the loss of one woman and the election at last of George Robertson, the reverse has happened. +But John Smith has kept faith with some of those who've been most harshly criticized. +Anne Taylor, the education spokesman, keeps her job and there's a big promotion for Clare Short who was sacked because of her opposition to the Gulf War. +While Harriet Harman who lost her seat on the shadow cabinet and has been strongly criticized for he commons performances over the past year, keeps hers. +I know I do have the confidence of the backbenchers to carry on with this particular job as well as the confidence of the leader and the shadow Chancellor. +John Smith's always made clear that he wanted to make the minimum number of changes to his shadow cabinet and with the exception of John Prescot's move, he's shown his determination to do that by making the minimum number of changes. +But some are also saying, it's been a missed opportunity to make a more radical shake up to a shadow cabinet where some members performances have been notable lack lustre. +John Sople, B B C News, Westminster. +Toxic chemicals contained in sheep dip may be banned after complaints from some farmers who say their health has been damaged by the dip. +A government advisory committee is meeting to decide whether organo-phosphates or O Ps as the chemicals are known, are safe for continued use. +Manufacturers of sheep dip say there's no evidence to link the pesticides with ill-health. +Dipping sheep in a bath of pesticide is an annual chore for farmers. +The work is hot, tiring and very messy. +But far more alarming is mounting evidence that the chemicals which poison sheep parasites may be poisoning farmers as well. +At the weekly sheepmart, farmers come to compare prices, but they also compare experiences of sheep dipping. +On the way back from moving the sheep, I felt as if I'd had a night in the pub, started feeling very wheezy and, Oh this is good. +Anyway I finally got back, washed the lorry out and I just couldn't finish washing the wagon out. +I started to feel sick, was vomiting, I had very bad diarrhoea and I sort of stayed in bed for like a couple of days, very very poorly. +At twenty nine Somerset farmer Julian Westcot fears his working life may be over. +He was hospitalized this Summer after shearing sheep which had been dipped in O Ps. +I was laid up for five weeks, couldn't do any work whatsoever and just sleep, cuss the family, be generally grumpy, tired and achy. +When I took him in he was at such a stage he had to go in in a wheelchair. +Erm he couldn't walk at all. +He was I think he'd passed out in the car. +The mobile dip Julian worked on now lies abandoned. +The man with the power to ban O P dips is Professor James Armor, Vice Principal of Glasgow University and chairman of the government's veterinary products committee. +It's whether they will be withdrawn or not. +I Obviously I can't preempt a discussion, but if we think on the evidence we see in in October that er that that is the course to take, we would do so. +But if we do not think that, er or we think there are possibly problems in in relation to to using protective clothing, we will also do that. +The Agriculture Minister Gillian Shephard will make the final decision and it's expected she'll do so within a month. +Affected farmers will learn then if O Ps have been reprieved or banned. +Only then can the battle for compensation begin. +Adrian Pitches, B B C News. +Scientists in France have found a new way to bring the past back to life. +They're using computers and virtual reality technology to interpret historical records. +And as our science correspondent David Whitehouse reports, it means we can now see what cities and building looked like hundreds of years ago. +Today they're just ruins in a Paris suburb, it's hard to imagine what these roman baths looked like when they were new. +But thanks to virtual reality, we can come as close as is possible. +Using historical records computer scientists have reconstructed the building, fifteen hundred years after it was ruined. +Inside these roman baths, the marriage of archaeology and computer science is complete. +British scientists are exited by this new way of bringing ancient buildings back to life. +I can stand in front of the screen, I can look at the simulations, I can stop them whenever I want to stop them and look at them, it gives me ideas about how the buildings might have looked at that time and it gives me a whole range of variations as to as to what can be done in terms of their reconstructions. +Recreating ancient buildings involves a lot of painstaking work translating archaeological records into computer code. +I B M U K are at the forefront of the new science of virtual archaeology. +First you make a fairly detailed ground plan, and then you essentially turn that ground plan into a three dimensional plan inside the computer. +And that's quite a time consuming step. +I believe in the case of these baths it took about one man year to do that transformation. +But then once the computer's got that, you just have to say, pretend I'm standing here, and the computer's capable of saying, This is what you would see. +But the most ambitious example of virtual reality, is Clanne Abbey, also in France. +Built in the year nine O nine, for six hundred years it was the largest enclosed building in the world. +Torn down during the French revolution, little remains. +But scientists have reconstructed it showing what it would have looked like. +using almost three thousand hours of work on a major computer, the result is a stunning walk through the abbey as it would have appeared in the eleventh century. +Scientists are excited by this computer approach to archaeology and they've plans to reconstruct other great buildings of the past bringing them to life once again. +David Whitehouse, B B C News. +And the main news again, there've been renewed calls tonight for the police to be armed after a community policeman was murdered. +P C Patrick Dunn was described as an honest gentle local bobby. +Judge Tumim's report into the riot at Wymott prison in Lancashire says the jail was close to anarchy. +John Prescot has won a key post in the new shadow cabinet, moving from transport to employment. +The next national news is the Nine O'clock news, from Jenny and + +What do you get the headphones for as well? +I don't know. +He didn't seem to know what they were in there for. +Oh. +Well you can listen to what you've taped with the headphones. +What? +You can listen to what you've taped. +Oh +You can play it back yeah, if you want to. +Oh. +I notice if you put the the headphones in it would erm you'd maybe be listening to it as it's taping? +I don't think you can do that. +Did you have to sign for something to say that you've had it? +To say I've had it, yeah. +Yeah. +When's he coming back? +Next Friday. +Next Friday, oh right. +And is that the microphone? +Yes. +And are you supposed to wear that? +Er stick it in your t wherever, yeah. +In your +Stick it where you like. +, you what? +Stick it where you like. +But d does it need to be uncovered? +No. +It's got erm it's own recording level. +Yeah. +And even if it and are you supposed to tell people that you're recording what they're saying or just record it +Erm +and then tell them afterwards? +I suppose you should tell them that you're going to tape the conversation maybe, yeah. +Yes. +I don't suppose that matters really. +But I mean, if you erm if you put your headphones on you see, they might just think erm you're listening to a Walkman. +And er they would come up with some bad language towards you. +Then especially if you told them you were recording what they said . +Could be dangerous. +I've asked Brian to take the dog out as well, when he comes back. +I won't have time now. +No. +And I'm going to Chester tomorrow. +Are you? +Yeah. +Ah! +Didn't I tell you about that? +There's no petrol in the car. +You mean every time I have that car I have to put petrol in. +No I put it in the last two times. +Twenty quid's worth. +So you'll have you watch my little car. +Watch it or wash it? +Watch it. +Be careful. +I'll be very careful with your little car John. +Well it's not far to Chester. +It's not as far to Chester as it is to Swansea is it? +I don't suppose it is. +Mm? +No. +Go the motorways though, if you can. +Oh. +You'll have to watch for, for the roadworks. +I mean the roadworks on the M 6 are diabolical now. +Mm. +I it took us three and a half hours coming back from Swansea. +But we stopped off for half an hour as well. +And I think it's longer coming back that way. +Over the bridge. +No it isn't. +It isn't. +You sure? +I'd be positive. +Shorter. +Cos th I remember the first time I went down that way over the bridge. +It was about a hundred and eighty miles I clocked up. +Er but coming back I only clocked up about a hundred and twenty. +What was the mileage when we got there? +A hundred and eleven? +Something like that, yeah. +So it was three hundred coming back or total three hundred. +I can't remember now exactly. +I I think it does make a difference, going over the bridge. +I I found it when I was driving the last time. +But I couldn't remember where the turn off was to come up the scenic route. +Cos I was reading, and you'd passed it. +Yeah well you could erm go up, go down the M 50 into Ross and then go from there. +Yeah but th there was a turn off and I didn't know whether the turn off was at Cardiff and we went past it. +Yeah, there is a oh to go back that way? +Yeah. +Yeah. +You could turn off for Abergavenny again. +Abergavenny yeah, but that was, that was going straight up +So, where's she gone now? +Who, Patricia? +Well, she was going to Birmingham and then she was going to in a careers office. +They close at about four o'clock don't they? +Yeah, very probably. +And she was hoping that they would have sent her for an interview down there. +In the afternoon. +Think she's probably staying in Birmingham. +Well, Birmingham's on the cards cos Steve, Stevey-boy works there doesn't he? +Pardon me? +What? +Food. +Come on Brian and get in the shopping. +Food food food food food food +How's Brian? +food food. +Glorious food. +no doubt. +Oy. +Your dinner's on top of the cooker. +Plate might be hot. +Eh! +Who's got a Walkman? +Me. +How come? +A bloke give me one. +Told you we should have let him in. +Oh it's got a microphone as well. +Yeah. +It's on at the moment. +Recording? +Oh I see. +Why's that? +Oh some experiment? +Right. +Some market research just to see how many times you swear at me. +Really? +Yeah. +Oh that's good. +So there will be er +plenty on it. +We should win any competitions then. +Hands down I think. +I can't eat any more of that. +Macaroni cheese? +Mm. +Hey. +It tastes alright for a few mouthfuls and then it like gets a bit monotonous. +I've just been up to Tesco's. +Mm? +Who were you talking to? +I was talking to er Simon and Dave and all the rest of the lads +Yeah. +Bragging about your bike. +And er, no actually. +Dave goes have you got your bike yet? +I goes yeah, just been to pick it up. +He goes oh and I suppose you loved every minute of it? +What's that grey thing John? +Has it fallen off the roof? +Ooh. +What's what? +That grey thing on the ground. +Oh yeah. +It's off the erm +Flue? +No, it's off +Vent? +It's off the toilet erm +The vent. +the vent. +Oh I'll pop back out there. +I'll put it in the garage. +We won't lose it then. +It just slides on. +But the wind licked it off I suppose. +I'm definitely not putting it back on today, but I will put it back on . +Well +Do you know that chap two doors down with the B M W? +Mm. +The wind set his alarm off. +Really? +Mm. +On his car? +Shook it? +Yeah. +Mm, must be very sensitive. +Upstairs, on the bed, vaseline on your nose. +Now. +Move it. +How much did my shopping come? +Go on. +Eight pound seventy. +Go upstairs. +Oh that was good. +Hurry up. +What? +He's going as well. +He's gone. +He goes upstairs, on the bed, vaseline on your nose go on. +And he's gone up. +I think he's getting hooked on the taste of vaseline, that dog. +Yeah. +So it's I'm gonna pop round to Matt's tonight. +Who's Matt? +Matt . +Where's he live? +Bromsgrove. +Mm. +He the one with the bike? +Yeah. +The one that dropped out of college? +Work. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well I'll ring him up. +See if he's in. +You mean you're not going to show off to John ? +Oh yeah. +I'm gonna call for him on the way. +Does he know Matt? +No. +I seen Andy in town today walking round with his erm headphones in. +Oh yeah. +Mm. +That tasty? +It is actually. +It's a bit big though. +Well John demolished my little omelette pan. +Oh I see. +Mm. +So I had to use his frying pan. +Rick. +Let's have a look at your face. +Oh nice. +Did you get vaseline on? +Mm. +Oh, yeah I've got some now. +Did you get your vaseline on Rick?good boy. +I wonder if these people that have to listen to these tapes can understand doggy language as well? +No. +No? +What do you think Rick? +Did John tell you anybody that takes part will get erm a Marks and Spencers' voucher? +Oh? +Mm. +Wonder if we'll get any, any vouchers for the dog? +In the pet food shop. +He makes enough noise doesn't he? +Yeah, yeah. +It was also noted today at these er presentations that I was the one with the least Brummie accent. +Oh. +Which made me feel good. +Well except for Andy. +Mm we oh yeah Andy's Nigerian. +The Nigerian. +Mm. +Yeah. +Except for him of course, but Cos I was getting a bit upset that my voice was going a bit Brummie. +Oh right. +I've given her her hairdryer back on trial, I've told her. +If she leaves it plugged in and switched on again she won't get it back. +Yeah. +She's definitely unplugged the hairdryer and she's unplugged her radio as well. +Because it ain't on. +I ain't having the house burnt down. +Bloody hairdryers. +Well want to know if Rick joins in the conversation will we get any vouchers for doggy food? +Yeah, we do don't we? +Yeah we do. +You are cheeky. +What about her food? +Tell Mary. +Tell Mary all about it. +I don't want to know about it Rick. +Well who, who noticed that you had the least Brummie accent? +The instructors +Oh. +and all the other lads. +Oh right. +Did they record it or that, no? +Which is a good job. +Mm. +Cos most of us were petrified anyway. +And that's a bit like that erm the teaching skills that I had to do that time when I was on the course. +Mm? +Erm and I had to think up something that I do as a hobby er to teach other people. +I, I did those little flowers you see and took them in. +And er it is quite nervewracking really to sit there. +Specially when the instructors come over and they're sort of sitting watching as well. +Well the bad thing was, as soon as I picked my cards up I dropped them all you know? +Mm. +All your flash cards? +Good morning yeah. +Good morning ladies and gentlemen pshoow and they, they went all over the place. +So I had to pick them back up mm sorry. +Bit of nerves. +Be back to front now, this morning yeah? +John wants me to er sew his trousers for him. +Oh. +I'm waiting on him picking up the machine. +It tickles me the way they call it portable and you can hardly lift it. +we took Patricia in to, we give her a lift as far as Longbridge today. +She was going back to get her coat changed. +And then she was going to the careers office. +And erm they were going to send her for an interview straight away. +I told her to be home reasonably early but she's not home yet. +Well +not far +I know. +Don't let it beat you. +I dunno mum. +Only a little omelette. +Yeah but it was bigger than the plate. +You had to fold it in half to get it on. +That's what I said to John I said you've got your dinner in between an omelette. +Yeah. +That's right. +I thought I could call it erm a Spanish omelette. +What I tried to do was one of those +Did you have +ploughman's things. +did you have a surplus of eggs or something? +Pardon me. +Well erm, I knew you wouldn't eat sort of sliced ham on its own with erm vegetables. +So I knew you would eat it like that in an omelette. +Mm. +I mean, if it had of been smaller. +Well, I'll have a go but I may not eat all this but if it was smaller it's really tasty as well. +Mm. +But you liked those erm were they countryman's or ploughman's in a packet and you just throw them into the pan and cook it for about fifteen minutes? +And that was just potatoes and eggs wasn't it? +And some cheese. +And bacon. +Don't remember. +Oh. +What I want to do, I want to cut the shopping down as much as I possibly can. +Well I think eight pounds is a good start. +But when I go to the shops and I spend seventy pound for a week. +We have to keep making trips back to the shop because we need bread or milk or something else that we've forgotten. +So so just make little trips. +So we're just making little trips as we run out of stuff. +Mm. +Good idea. +And see how, if that will work out any better. +Yeah. +Well the good news for the environmentalists is the bike runs on unleaded. +Mhm. +Which is good news. +Cos like that's not so expensive. +So, I shall have to take it to the petrol station in a minute. +Yeah. +Does, and does it need erm oil or anything like that? +No. +He showed me where the little oil level was. +So you don't have a dipstick, there's a little little ho glass hole +Mhm. +where you look in. +Oh right. +With a a maximum and a minimum. +Mhm. +Like on your dipstick. +And you just look at it. +Mm. +Mm. +Well, just be careful when you go out. +Yeah. +Cos I mean it's it's not the bikers it's the other vehicle that's on the road. +Alright? +Not more than two minutes. +John will verify this. +Do you remember John? +We came out of the shop, turned left turned left there, and then turned right. +We're going down this road and John was in front of me and just as John went past this wagon it pulled out and there was a car coming the other way. +Eeeeh hit my horn. +Ha I could have shouted louder. +And he stopped and luckily there was just enough room for me to slow down and just go between them. +I mean that guy just pulled out in front of me. +Mm. +Huge, huge lorry. +Oh he he didn't see you or just didn't ? +Didn't care. +Oh. +He saw me alright cos like John said I had the headlights on. +Yeah. +Well that's it. +Don't expect anybody else to obey the highway code. +Yeah. +Right? +Did you see them two dirty great big no right turn signs? +What no right turn signs ? +You what? +I said to the bloke I said how do you get out that junction? +He said you don't, there's no right turn. +I looked up the road and there was two great big signs, no right turn. +I'd already gone that way twice. +Yeah. +And turned right. +Yeah. +Cos it's a very awkward junction. +Mm. +Thank you mum. +Dog's looking at you. +What do you want Ricksy? +Come on then. +What is it Ricky? +Come on then.. +dog. +I don't see any I don't I don't see any bacon in there. +You're not having bacon till Monday. +Are you gonna buy it tomorrow? +No. +Oh. +You're working, so you don't need bacon. +I'm not working Monday. +Well you can go and get it. +Saturday Sunday. +Let's have some wh when? +Monday. +I'll be up then. +I won't need it. +Well I might get it Sunday for you. +Okay. +But we talk about this and we said we're cutting the shopping down, I'm not going shopping. +And the first thing you do is demand that we have butter in the house. +So we had to go and do shopping just to get your butter. +No you didn't. +You bought dog food. +You bought milk. +Yeah I didn't I didn't actually need to go shopping or I didn't want to go shopping. +You did. +You needed butter. +No. +You needed butter. +There's margarine. +Alright. +Don't you eat it. +Don't you touch that butter. +Right. +I won't. +Nor anybody else. +If you're saying you're buying the butter solely for me, then I just want me solely to eat it. +Cos I'm not carrying the can. +I needed butter as well. +Brian, you're not to eat it. +What! +Not even on my toast at night? +No. +She says you had to go out and buy butter solely because I wanted it. +And I've +Oh +I've had the bollocking cos we've had to buy butter. +Well I wanted it as well so that's two against one. +And if you see her, see her eating our butter there will be a row. +Cos +you've said that. +I won't have Flora on the toast. +I think that's horrible. +It goes all watery. +Look I'm not amused at all. +Well neither am I. +na na na na na +He said he wants butter. +Yeah. +Well why couldn't you put up with margarine for one day? +Oh we could have. +But I didn't mind going shopping. +Yeah well sh I wouldn't have minded just for today. +I I didn't mind going +I didn't s I I didn't say +Now you say that +I didn't say I'd got to have it today. +Cos I don't. +Yes you did. +No I did not. +You s your suggestion was send Brian to the shops. +Not mine. +Now that was the +Well can you empty one of those and put it and put it in that bucket. +Will you turn that tape recorder off so I can thump him. +Thumping me probably won't come out on the tape. +I came out with the awful truth today to the lads. +So you dropped it. +They loved it. +So you told them you fell off your bike? +You said you're not gonna believe this. +He goes why aren't you on your bike Brian? +I goes I went to the end I goes look I'll tell you all together get it over with I lost my balance and I dropped it. +Alright? +There you go. +Er thank you. +Bye. +Whoa come here, come here. +Tell us all about it. +He goes what you done? +I goes ah just broken the indicator lens and a few other little bitties. +He'll eat that. +One of yours. +Did you like that John? +I'm not finished yet. +There's another two plays on tomorrow. +Tomorrow? +Okay. +I'll sort them out. +Oh you've been up to Joe 's have you mum? +Mm? +Have you been up to Joe 's? +Got more in . +Mm?special? +I think you were a bit. +Shut up Rick. +He's crying his eyes out in there. +Three hundred and ninety pounds insurance. +Not too bad. +I've gotta get that down a bit. +Mm. +ten pound for the cover note. +You know just for +Really? +three or four days. +Yeah. +You know while +while the changeover has been done. +Got my registration number today. +Mhm. +J +One O two. +Is it TOV or? +Anybody want any more chips? +One O two two. +My new number. +Oh. +W Y C or something. +No thanks. +No thanks Mary. +W Y C I think it is. +So all the ones you see T O C and +Yeah they've got O in them. +Or V. +Yeah. +T O V or whatever. +Go and lie down. +At one time the V was only for, for commercial vehicles. +Mm? +You know light vans and commercials but it's used for anything now. +You know our car's D V P. +Yeah. +Oh and I can't eat that bread and butter now. +I'm chockered. +Yeah one of the, one of the lads there Alan, he goes er I'm surprised you haven't committed suicide yet after dropping your pride and joy. +Well it does hurt your pride. +Oh yeah. +Specially when you do it in front of all the neighbours. +Can't show my face again. +I'm afraid we cannot have any of this. +Too . +Hope it's dry tomorrow. +I won't feel so bad about going to work on it then. +If it's wet just take your time. +Yeah. +Keep it upright. +I can't understand how I did it you know. +Well you didn't realize it was going over did you? +No. +It catches you by surprise. +I think I must have had my weight to the front of the bike, you know, coming up on the braking. +Er this tap's dripping. +When does the insurance run out? +Eh? +When does the insurance run out? +Where does? +The insurance run out. +It's run out. +Wednesday. +Oh Wednesday. +Quick, ring up. +Shouldn't be dripping. +Pressure's not high. +Pressure was down again this morning. +We must keep an eye on that. +Yeah. +Cos between one and two bar on the, on the erm boiler. +What was it on? +Eh? +It means, means the system wasn't pressurized. +Yeah. +But it could be very dangerous. +It's not right. +Will it give a constant read out through the day? +Even when it's switched off? +Yeah. +It shouldn't move. +Oh. +The pressure's okay Mary. +Cos I didn't notice it this morning. +I didn't notice it this morning. +Probably be alright to use the hot water system but not the heating. +Oh right. +Because it's a pressurized system. +So if you have a look and you can't see that needle. +Yeah. +The, the water is the water pressure's definitely changed. +Well it's changed now cos it's up now. +I in the shower in the shower for one. +It's up now. +I it's weak in the shower. +Er well it would have been. +There was no pressure on it. +No, it's always weak. +It's always weak in the shower now. +Mm? +It's never as strong as it used to be. +It shouldn't be. +It should be okay. +And it's cold as well. +Have you noticed? +Yeah I was I had a shower, well, perhaps the water's been turned down a bit. +I I keep turning it up again but it it's cold every time I use it. +You know I pull it out and turn it up hot. +No I mean here. +Oh there. +On the boiler. +That water. +Rick. +It's only one and a half. +It should be higher than that. +I'll put it up to two and a half and it should be warm enough there. +Right. +Lovely. +Is just? +Well we'll have to watch that boiler. +Yeah. +They're fatal if we, if it. +You just opened the door on the dog's mouth. +Opened the fridge door and hit him right on the +Yeah. +right in the mouth didn't you Rick? +Poor Rick. +My poor baby. +Aah! +Come, what did she do to you? +What have I got for you? +Hang on, hang on. +How much do you love me? +That much? +Okay. +You're only having little bits. +You're not having any bones or anything like that. +We'll have to keep it out, and use it. +Is there a time limit? +Forty five minutes a side so it's erm +I mean no. +When he wants it all done by. +Yeah, Saturday. +Saturday? +All those tapes? +Well as many as possible. +That's what I mean. +We'll have to keep it out. +Somebody's put it away you see. +Mother. +Yeah. +Oh I don't doubt it. +There's only one person that commits the mortal sins. +That's it. +Yeah. +And her name is mother. +Well I'm certain it begins with M. +Rick. +You're not having any rice. +No. +Where's all this paperwork? +That's all mine. +What you looking for? +Paperwork belongs to this. +Mary. +Ooh! +That hurt. +Mary. +I didn't want him to have that. +Mary. +Mary where's the paperwork belonging to that? +I dunno John. +Oh that's some of it. +Have a, get it all out then Brian. +There's a book in there I've gotta fill in. +That's it. +That's it. +There doesn't happen to be a pen in there does there? +Oh I see one. +That my erm cover note? +I've no idea. +Friday the thirteenth. +What a day to buy a motorbike. +See the value of the bike came down, the value of the insurance came down cos I put the value at twelve hundred pounds. +See erm there was a ten percent discount if you had it erm under twelve hundred and fifty pounds. +Yeah. +So in some ways it's cheaper insurance but in others it's erm a bit of a sting. +Have you done? +Come on. +Oy. +See that machine there? +What does it do? +It hides behind mother so that Brian can't get at it. +No. +This plates go in this way. +Well I'm not allowed to use this machine so er +Knives and forks should go in that way. +Right? +Why that way? +There are glass plates somewhere. +Have you made any tea Mary? +No. +No. +Do you want some tea? +I want to get into the habit of finishing and getting the dishwasher on and ge cleaning the kitchen completely. +I told him to ring I told him ring Apex up in case they were recruiting. +Because there are jobs up on the notice board. +But he said Apex didn't know anything about it at the moment. +So I mean, if Apex don't know anything about it I don't know why they don't . +Now you know I don't get on with plastic. +Oh I got it first time. +I got it first time. +Oh god. +Tell her there will be half a pie for her tea otherwise she don't get none. +I mean this is ridiculous. +Yeah. +Turn that on for me will you? +Just +It's making work for everybody. +And one thing we don't want is extra work. +I mean if we get finished now and clean the ki cooker and and clean everything and say right, we're out of the kitchen then, nothing more tonight. +That's it. +If they want something they can get it themselves. +Yeah. +Yeah but tell them to clean up after them. +Mm. +Don't leave it for you all the time. +Yeah. +Lynn doesn't cook any meals for any of them. +No. +Well I mean that's different to the way we live though isn't it? +Mm.? +Mm? +Packet of instant mash. +Tin of peas and a tin of spam. +Mm, could you imagine me +Lovely. +And throws it all in puts it all on the plate cold and puts it in the microwave. +No wonder he sits in the chair and does nothing. +Because they do it at home. +Eat that food now. +I've had enough of you. +You're being perfectly silly. +Erm, I can't think what you do tomorrow when you go with Steve . +I mean that will be three hours continuous. +Yeah. +I remind me in the morning. +Yeah. +I'll stick a note on the thing. +Yeah. +Eh? +you forget about it +Yeah. +Don't put it away then Mary. +Pardon? +Don't put it away, you'll have to leave it out for the week. +Seventeenth tomorrow isn't it Mary? +Mm? +Seventeenth tomorrow? +Yeah. +I'll have to, I shan't +Yeah. +Mm. +I've put a list up erm for the things that I want for my birthday. +For the things that I would like for my birthday. +Are you interested? +Yeah. +John, how much do I owe you for the erm the lens? +Phaw one twenty five. +Can I this? +Yeah. +Yeah so I'll keep it in the garage. +Keep it in your pocket. +Right. +It's no good in the garage. +Oh oh. +There you go. +I'm reduced to pennies again. +Okay. +Well I've got no change. +That's alright. +Right, keep that in me pocket. +? +Alright, yeah. +Are you having some cake? +Er no thanks. +No cake +I I'll have some tonight. +no yogurt. +Right. +Don't bank on it. +New kitchen rules. +New kitchen rules. +New kitchen rules mum. +Yes, yes. +Come on then. +After supper. +Yet again. +After supper. +After supper and it's mum +Dishwasher +that cleans the kitchen. +Mum is staying out of the kitchen. +Oh yes! +Right? +So, if you want anything make it yourself. +I do anyway. +Mm? +I do anyway. +Supper. +Mhm. +Well you can sit there and I'll read this list out to you. +And I will cringe. +For mummy's birthday mummy would like one a gold locket with a strong chain. +Two, an eternity ring. +Three, a hundred pounds worth of premium bonds. +Four +an epilator. +Do you know what one of them is? +Not an escalator? +Oh, for taking the hairs off your legs? +That's it. +Not a razor. +I've got a razor upstairs. +Number five, a weekend away at a health farm. +Oh forget it, you can scrub that out straight away. +Number six a large bright dried flower arrangement. +Number seven, a large colourful brooch. +Not gold. +Number eight, fountain pen. +Not a cartridge pen and not a set. +Just a fountain pen on its own. +Number nine is gold earrings. +Stud type not drop type, studs. +Number ten's perfumes talcs and books. +Number eleven is an ornament from the jewellers. +Number twelve, nightdress and negligee set. +Number thirteen, no chocolates please. +And that's it. +Okay. +Pin that up on the board. +Yeah. +And what you will have to do, you will have to tell each other what you would like to buy or what you would think of. +Because, if you scrub them off then I'll know that you're gonna buy them. +Cross off the health farm. +You can buy me er the locket, the eternity ring, the premium bonds and the weekend away at the health farm. +You'd be lucky to get one. +Good. +I think you're getting as bad as me. +Oh I got it from you. +Coming out with your list of what you want for your birthdays. +I thought well I'll try it. +Where's the nearest loan company? +Mm? +Where's the nearest loan company? +Brian. +Me. +I know. +So +When are you gonna cross my palm with silver? +She +I forgot about that. +Yeah. +When are you going to +That will wipe the smile off your face. +I do you want me to get it tomorrow for you? +Mm. +Cos I can call in at the bank and get it to +No, don't get it till I want it to buy her present. +Erm I only owe eighty pounds don't I? +Cos of the twenty that I borrowed +Mm. +at the start of the month. +Mm. +Yeah . +Stupid dog. +He ignored that. +Good boy. +He didn't even look . +I went to the doctors today. +Oh yes? +Yeah. +He said don't buy any more new clothes. +He said what? +Don't buy any more new clothes. +She said I was +A hypochondriac? +terribly overweight. +What made her say that I wonder. +And she would like me to go to the well women's clinic every Wednesday it's run. +And she would like me to go, book in for an appointment. +And she would discuss my diet amongst other things. +Oh dear. +Mhm. +Which diet? +Your chocolate diet? +Your crisp diet or your food diet? +Hm! +Er +Or the the meals in between diet. +If if I'm on a diet you lot will be on diets. on diets +We know all about it. +but there will be no more cake. +We know. +I think I'm gonna have to change us all to Flora. +Just buy me butter. +I get no help and encouragement do I? +I shan't encourage you to eat my butter. +Hey you, I buttered that bread for you and you didn't eat it. +I can't mum, I'm full. +nice cup of tea. +These people that have to listen to these tapes you know, they must get terribly bored mustn't they? +I dunno. +I suppose it can be quite entertaining. +Yeah I should think so, yeah. +Mm? +I suppose it can be quite entertaining sometimes. +Mm. +Wait till Trish gets in. +Then it will liven up. +It's sure to. +Er I I suppose it's to see how people use the English language. +What words we use, what words aren't used. +What slang we use. +We use all the words of the English language don't we? +We use the yellow ones, the blue ones, the black ones. +I wonder how they'd get on with somebody with foreign? +George is, George is gonna get me some lights for on here, did you know? +Who? +George. +He's gonna get me glass? +No, lights. +Oh lights. +George ? +Yeah. +Mm. +He makes them. +Well Lynwood do them. +Oh? +So the next time he goes he's gonna get some for me. +Oh does George work for the Lynwood? +What do you th what do you think +He does he does ma a lot of manufacture for Lynwoods. +Oh. +What do you think of having in here artexed or airtexed or whatever it's called, artex. +Yeah, good idea. +But we're not spending any money. +Yeah. +I think Jean said, well she watched the others do it. +They only did like erm a square foot every time. +Erm you have to do, put it on and then design it. +And then move over to the next square. +Put it on, design it she said because it dries very quickly. +Mm. +It's only like a plaster of paris stuff isn't it? +It does go off quick. +Mm that's right. +Quick. +She said it's er about ten pound a tub but I don't know how far a tub would go? +Not very far. +Mm. +And then she said there was stuff called textured paint that has, it's like paint with lumps in it. +I think it's just lumpy paint gone wrong and then and they sell it. +But then she said you get erm you put it on and you get a brush and er not a brush, a roller. +And the roller has a design, a line on it. +Different designs. +That's right yeah. +And then you just roll it on. +Mm. +Yeah. +Mm. +Said Debbie's used that in her house. +It could definitely do with something. +But we'll leave it for now. +Mm. +When, when he was in I saw he I saw Mark look at that corner. +Mm. +And he copped off. +That one there? +Yeah. +It's skew-wiff. +What does it come out does it? +Goes in. +Ah so I see, yes. +Goes in about an inch. +Mm. +Mm. +He was saying to me it was very difficult to do. +Well I can't understand why. +I mean really what he should have done if it, if it was that difficult he should have gone back another half a brick and the j bricked it up all the way +Mm. +level, instead of putting bits and pieces in. +Surely +Yeah. +he could have half bricked it all the way up? +Mm. +Instead of saying how difficult it was putting bits and pieces in. +I would have thought that's what I would have done. +You know, just come straight up with a row of bricks. +Logical thing to do. +Yeah. +That's what I thought. +I mean it didn't have to be spot on. +As long as it came back out to where it is now. +Ah. +Good boy. +The dog was lying there last night and Patricia said something to him, I don't know what she said to him but the look on his face. +You could tell it really upset him, whatever she said to him. +Yeah. +She she wouldn't tell us what she'd said to him either, so it must have been bad. +But did you fart? +He probably farted. +Oh yeah well. +Rick. +You cheeky. +Good boy boys. +Cos we're talking about you. +Go to sleep now. +Good boy. +Close your eyes. +That's it. +Close your eyes and go to sleep. +Go on go on. +Go on. +You soft animal. +He won't close his eyes in case you do something to him. +Yeah. +In case he see in case he misses something. +What are you going out now? +Yeah. +I was gonna wash the car. +I'll do it tomorrow. +I've never +Hey mum +seen it so dirty. +just think this time next week you'll have me new car for me. +Yeah it's my birthday present. +Eh? +Top of me list. +It's not on it's not on the list. +You're not having it. +. +Number one A +Forget it. +You're too late now, you've made the list. +Oh! +You are slow. +Mm. +Do do do do +How many tapes do they expect you to fill up John? +I don't know. +As many as are full up. +Whether it be one, two ten fifteen, it doesn't matter. +And what why do you have to fill in the form? +Erm every time you use a tape you fill in this is tape side B tape one side B tape two side A tape two side B. +Oh. +So we're still on side one? +No we're on one side B. +We've done side A. +Is it full? +Yeah. +When, what was the date we started recording on the tape? +Was it Saturday? +What date was last Saturday? +Dunno John. +Fourteen fifte fourteenth? +That bloke didn't come on Saturday, he come on Friday didn't he? +No, well +What, why have you put down that you have your regional accent and I have an Irish accent? +I haven't. +Well, you can't tell that I'm Irish but I can tell you're Irish. +Oh. +How can you do that? +I I . +You're you're a frigging idiot you are. +How do you know that people can't tell you're Irish? +Nobody can. +Nobody can tell that I'm Irish. +Only when I swear. +And you know I don't swear very often. +No. +Erm +kids anyway. +But that could change when Patricia comes in. +And what does erm why does Brian and Patricia not have a regional accent? +Well I don't think they have. +Think a brummie accent. +They haven't got a brummie accent, no. +No. +And th th they haven't got a twang as far as I know anyway so +Mm. +I'm only putting the truth down as I see it. +Yeah. +You know? +I mean I could be wrong. +I can only put down what I know to be the truth as far as I can tell. +Mhm. +There doesn't seem to be a regional accent in this area does there? +If you start going further towards Worcester, Worcestershire. +Into Worcester +The black country. +That area. +that that area. +Well, into Hailsowen +Wales. +Mhm. +places like that, then you would get an accent. +I suppose it's too much of a mixture up here isn't it? +Mhm. +But I don't look at Birmingham people +Who? +The girl next door. +when Brian ? +Thought he'd be but he wasn't. kids . +Out. +You'd better eat that food. +I've seen you know the, the coat she brought home first of all? +I've seen a lot of people up town wearing that coat, but they were all much older. +I would have said they were in their forties. +Yeah. +You know, mutton dressed as lamb. +Yeah. +Wearing that type of coat. +But +Yeah. +that one that she brought home does look decent. +Right I'll move the car then, out of his way. +Well switch your tape off. +Oh you've been to see him? +Yeah. +Who's that? +And er he he suddenly looked up and went it's Brian! +Like this and the and the pliers dropped out of his hand. +Ah! +Like this he was. +It was really funny. +And did Janet come out? +Janet came out and went hello, ooh. +Got in her car and drove off. +Off to the chinese. +the chinese. +And er +She hasn't changed. +And Greg, Greg goes oh let me sit on it! +Oh! +So, Greg was impressed. +What car's he got? +A Chevette. +A Chevette. +What year? +T, same as mine. +How much did he pay for his? +Four fifty. +No. +No it was three seven five. +Three seven five he paid for it. +Yeah. +I thought Janet's own car, I thought they gave it to Greg's brother? +The Escort? +They did. +No, it wasn't an Escort he had out there the other day was it? +That old beat up thing. +That was several years ago. +That was er an Ital he had out there. +Oh. +And what's and Janet driving now? +Sierra. +Sierra. +Yeah. +Sierra. +And Jan's got a a new Mini. +Oh. +H reg Mini. +Mm. +Which +She must be doing well now. +which er which Emma's allowed to drive. +Oh right, yes. +But not Greg? +But er Greg's got his own car. +Is she still in Dixons? +Think so. +Mm. +Oh she work in a Dixons? +Mm. +What full time? +Yeah. +Yeah, the estate agents I think. +Oh the estate agents. +Yeah she she left school and went straight into Dixons. +Oh I see. +And Janet wasn't impressed at all. +No. +Janet had high hopes for . +Yeah. +But er I think +You can do well in that job though. +You can be er kidnapped and all sorts. +Eh? +You can do well in that job. +You can be kidnapped and all sorts. +Yeah. +And then we could always send Brian out to be the motorbike dispatch rider couldn't we? +Yeah, so I mean I haven't really done that where, where did I ride to? +Where else did you go? +I went down to Greg's and I went round to Rob's to see how his interview went. +And what was his interview for? +For Rover. +Oh. +He's coming to Rover this year. +Robert . +He's just finished, well he's taking his exams in twelve weeks. +Mm. +A levels are in twelve weeks time. +And will he just go in as an apprentice the same as yourself? +He will go in the same as myself. +But he'll be a year behind you? +He'll be a year behind me, and he'll be on the same money as me. +Oh right. +Because he's done his A levels, oh. +So he doesn't lose out there. +His dad is also a manager down at erm Cowley I think . +Mm. +His dad does a lot of travelling. +And erm +Mm it must be at Cowley cos Connolly's virtually closed now. +Yeah. +And er +What department's he in? +I've no idea. +Dunno. +I know he's got a it's er it's one of the craft sections cos he's got craft apprentices under him. +Oh. +And how, how did his interview go? +A lot of them have you know. +He hasn't had it yet. +He's had the test. +Mm. +But he's got the interview next week he thinks. +Oh yeah is that did you tell him about the test? +No, he'd already had it. +Oh. +Because er it come as a bit of a shock to you didn't it? +Er +Yeah. +He he goes I'd no idea it was so hard. +He said it was so difficult. +Think it was a real shock for him. +Yeah. +And erm we er I gave him a few tips on what to revise on +Yeah. +for the interview. +You know the cos they +always ask you the maths rules. +Th they will pick on something +that you're good at. +You know. +And say if you do have a bit of knowledge on it. +No I just told him to revise the er the cycle of the engine. +Oh. +And who erm +Suck squeeze bang blow. +who else did you go and see? +Then I went down to see Andy. +You know the one with the ginger hair? +Ah yeah. +And he come out with the same expression on his face. +Oh yeah. +Er! +Oh motorbike! +Yeah. +He goes I don't believe it. +He goes I now hate you. +He hasn't been round for a while, Andy, has he? +No well, you see Andy's got himself a +A girl? +a an older woman. +Well older she +Is that the one that rung Patricia? +She's a year older. +No. +Which one was that? +Simon. +Oh. +He's alright. +Mm. +I think, is in the er garage? +Think so yeah. +And then I, then I popped down to see James. +Oh James has a bike doesn't he? +No, that's Simon. +That's Simon well, he's got rid of it. +He's got a Mini now. +a Mini. +And James like your bike then? +He went whoa! +Big! +Oh right. +So you've done the rounds tonight then Brian? +I've done the rounds tonight, yeah. +Have you much petrol left? +Loads. +Loads. +I filled it I put six pound on, put six pounds in on Friday and I've got loads left. +And I've been all round the place. +You'll have to go round +Did you go for your gauge then? +No. +No. +You'll have to go round visit your Aunt Bridie. +Er +Put her in an early grave? +Yeah. +Oh I couldn't do that to her. +Tell her you've come to take her to the ol the pensioners' club on her, on your bike. +Yeah. +Come on, jump on. +She might get on it as well. +I've been ever so tired. +Yeah. +I tell you what did wake me up though John. +Coming down the er the old church highway towards the house from town er the white arrows in the road +You've gotta keep off them. +I found that out. +You what? +You know the white arrows in the road? +The white the white lines +Mhm. +and manhole covers. +You've gotta find out where they are. +What about them? +Yeah. +I've gotta memorize where they are from now on. +Why? +The white lines and the arrows in the middle of the lane. +Why? +They make you change your line. +Because I went over it +Mm and skidded? +doing about sixty and I felt a twitch in the wheel and I thought shit! +I'm not going over one of them again. +Mm. +Well you have to sometimes. +You'll get used to it and it doesn't affect you +I suppose it a bit? +after a bit. +But you've got to watch them when they're, when you're in the wet. +I was I was, I was slightly banked at the time. +Mm. +Just very slightly. +You w if your d wheel does move it won't move far. +You get used to that, the wheel moving over a bit. +I suppose er it's a trick not to over correct? +It will stop itself. +It will, it just might slide a bit but it will stop sliding when it comes off it. +Yeah. +Cos by the time you you've felt it you've passed it maybe? +Well you you've travelled another hundred yards. +Yeah. +I er I suppose you have to be very careful er and find out what is on the road? +But like tomorrow when I go to work +Keep away from the kerbs. +That's the most important thing. +Yeah. +I ride in the middle of the lane. +Tomorrow when I go to work on it, I'm going through er I'm not gonna go through Bowgreen I don't wanna go that way. +go that way . +Well you can go straight up to Longridge Lane. +I'll go straight through Longridge Lane. +That way. +Yeah. +There's a lot, there's +Up to Gr Gravelly Corner +Yeah it's up +Are you going over to Droitwich on it or will you go in your car? +I'll go to Droitwich on it, yeah. +Mm. +And then coming back here to get changed or what? +I've I've booked the whole morning off. +Well I I p I personally think +When you gotta go Droitwich? +you would you would need +Tomorrow morning. +Oh tomorrow. +I personally think you would need +Well the weather forecast is dry anyway. +more experience dri riding on the bike as it is, without erm having your rucksack and things on. +Get used to carrying it. +Mm? +Get used to carrying it. +It it didn't bother me at all. +I'm not kidding you, it did I didn't feel it. +I could feel a slight pressure on me shoulders, but it didn't restrict my movements in any way. +When? +When I was c coming back with the boots in them. +In it. +On Saturday. +Mm. +Well, just be very careful. +And don't get over cocky. +And keep away from big lorries. +Yes mum. +I fully intend to keep away from them anyway. +I mean a bit of fear is a good thing. +Erm, I'm still scared every time I pull away. +You know,ji little jitterbugs. +Yeah. +And I went up Iver Road as well. +On a bike? +O o on the way back from Andrew's, yeah. +I always found that awkward at the top. +Yeah. +Specially if there was cars on the hill and I had to pull up behind them. +Cos you you run out of you know, what things to do. +Cos you've gotta have one foot on the ground and you've gotta have one o ha foot, one on the brake +Yeah. +one on the clutch, one on the throttle +Yeah. +and the other one on, and your gear change. +You're one missing. +Yeah . +Yeah you +I'd just get off and push it . +On Iver Road? +Whoa! +Down he goes. +But luckily there was only a c only one car stopped at the top. +So I just stopped dead and did a hill start. +Stopped at the top and did another hill start. +Plymouth Road's another awkward one. +The first, the first down bit when you're going down Plymouth Road. +Oh yeah, I bet. +When you come to the right, the bend. +Cos it's actually quite s , quite sharp bend. +And it gets wet down there as well. +It gets a bit slippy on there. +And there's manhole covers as you come out the bend. +And don't go don't go speeding Brian. +You don't have the same control over a bike when you're speeding. +You don't have the same control over a car +It +or a bike when you're speeding. +It feels better, going slow. +Cos it's more comfortable. +Yeah. +Your 's +Yeah. +better. +When I say un slow, under fifty. +You know when you, when you think that police rider +Go at a speed you can enjoy it. +Mm? +Go at a speed that you can enjoy riding it at. +Yeah. +That's it. +I mean the police riders look as if they're enjoying it. +And and where people can recognize me. +Mm? +Where people can recognize me. +That's it. +Hey look there's Bri. +Look at him go. +Brrr +And it will last you longer, you know? +Yeah. +Your bike, the engine, the oil. +You reduce it's life. +It's ever so good at the er cruising though. +It's really nice. +It should cruise along at about fifty at, you know, quarter throttle. +Fifty it does about er three and a half, four thousand R P M. +Yeah. +It's about right for a four hundred. +Mine would be doing about five grand at that. +Four and a half, five. +Mm. +Mine went up with, you know let's face it if I was doing sixty mile an hour it would be doing just over six grand. +Yeah. +Anything over that, you know mine is going up towards the seven into the red. +The red on that's about ten. +Yeah. +And mine did and mine's only a, mine was only a sm you know one eight five . +Yeah. +I haven't had it above er above about eight grand I think. +That was when I wound it up on a carriageway. +Don't, just keep your revs down. +Hello Rick. +You poor tired little boy. +Cos erm Greg came down the other night. +Did I tell you? +When you were in Wales? +He came +No. +he came down. +To sh show me his car. +Oh. +How long has he had his car? +Er he had a he had a Polonaise +Oh right. +before that. +Ooh! +I mean that's the pits. +Bet he, he didn't wanna show that to anybody. +No. +He didn't that. +But er and he got this little Chevette. +Apparently he blew the Polonaise up. +Everybody does, don't they? +Yeah. +Er he's bought his little Chevette and er it's a nice little car. +Mm. +Bit noisy but it's alright. +Is it yellow or green? +Red. +Oh a red one! +Oh yeah. +Quite decent. +He loves it. +He's got all these plans for it. +Bore it out to a fourteen eighty and +Load of rubbish. +Right. +Thank you Brian. +And make it last about six months. +Or six thousand miles +Do you want one? +whichever comes first. +No. +No. +Just give me a fiver. +Haven't got a fiver. +I'll go and er bring me bike in. +Get me stuff ready for tomorrow. +Hello. +And, do you want a wee? +Rick. +Do you want a wee? +Tell me what you want? +Come here. +Do you want a wee wee? +Don't you cheek +Don't eat the microphone Rick. +You cheeky . +T that's it, walk all over me. +You cheek +The gloves are good. +Yeah? +Gloves are, gloves are really good. +They, not as like warm as yours but er they're certainly nice and warm. +Yeah. +You need good gloves +Yeah. +cos see once your hands get cold you've gotta give up. +And now, now I'm wearing the scarf the er the cold doesn't go down. +My er my adam's apple gets cold but that's about it. +Do you want me to put the sound on? +Yeah. +I haven't seen him yet. +Oh you haven't seen him. +But she said to me, she goes er last Friday night she was ten pounds down. +Yeah? +And she's been working there eight years. +Yeah. +So it does happen. +Oh yeah it happens, yeah. +It's very hard to balance a till. +Yeah. +She says you get new ten pound notes, they stick together and you count them as one. +She says that is the most common one. +Yeah. +It could have been there all the time. +Yeah. +And you missed it you see? +And as for being six pound up, she says I must have short-changed someone . +Yeah. +Come on, you're losing your touch now. +Come on, give me a kiss. +Go on. +Quick, quick quick quick. +Good boy +Go on. +Get it Rick. +Go on. +Hey! +Kiss. +And me. +Give me one. +Give me a kiss. +Kiss. +Give me a kiss. +Give me a kiss. +If you don't kiss, kiss +Rick Rick Rick Rick Hey. +Oh thanks Rick. +You put it on there? +Yeah. +Well I've left you three tapes out to take with you. +When? +Now. +Oh this morning? +Yeah. +I mean it's a good opportunity. +You might as well get it used up. +See it's having a pocket +What are you looking for? +It's having a pocket to put it in to. +Does it have a clip on the back? +Yeah. +It can clip on to your trousers. +Yeah. +everybody? +Where is everybody? +Oh we're first by the look of it. +Oh dear. +Well almost first anyway. +Haven't you? +Oh Mary was late up. +There was a right panic in our house. +How come? +Well I, I got up late and Brian was in the bathroom. +Had to rush downstairs, do my breakfast. +Had some Weetabix quick and a cup of tea. +Rush rushed into the bathroom. +Went in there and went and got dressed so Mary was up then so when I got back downstairs the er breakfast, my breakfast was on the table. +Again. +So all in all, it's quite exciting. +You all looking forward to this? +Yeah. +Yes I am. +I said to Sue I said I can't ring and tell him I ain't going I says, I'll upset him too much. +I think I'd have if you was to say that. +feelings. +I would have been upset. +I would, I'd have gone to . +I thought I'm, I'm going this morning. +Did you go yesterday? +No. +No . +Didn't have time really. +no, we'll leave this on. +I thought we'd be too bollocksed by the time we get up there anyway. +Er yeah. +You don't John? +Yeah, should have somewhere. +In case it's er again. +Otherwise we folding things up. +Do you know them three mirrors I had? +I had three mirrors, I can't find the bleeding things. +Can't you? +No. +I don't know what I've done with them. +I've got I've got seven I think balls. +But I've got all seven good ones. +But, it looks grotty, it is a good one. +Yeah. +Have I got everything? +Yeah. +No, yesterday me flaming back was killing me. +Really? +And I thought oh,. +Niggling this morning but I daresay walking round here might do it +It will get rid of it yeah. +I took some yesterday, I was and I took some last night before I went to bed and I took two this morning. +Cos my hips were killing me. +You what? +My hips were killing me, you know? +Well I think that's cos I lie on me right in bed. +I have to t I go and lie on me left but if I lie +Yeah. +on my right side it's er +Yeah. +you've gotta knife in your side. +Yeah. +I, mind you I today. +Ooh. +Oh you ca I'll let you. +If we ever get up this hill. +Morning. +Morning. +Morning. +Yeah. +She was the one that was giving a bollocking to . +Yeah. +He's conscientious anyway isn't he? +He's doing his best. +Oh yeah. +Don't look up. +Phew Oh dear. +Nearly there. +I find if I don't look up it's not so bad. +You ought to be able to drive up here didn't you? +I really wouldn't mind selling all my camera gear. +Su and er it's su such a waste. +I never use it. +It is isn't it? +You, you've had no pleasure really out of it. +No. +I mean if I sold it cheap. +Eh? +Even if I only sold it, you know for a couple of hundred pounds. +Well you could buy yourself some golf stuff for a hundred couldn't you? +Or +Well it's worth more than a hundred. +Well +I couldn't sell it +you c you could maybe I dunno +that cheap. +What do you want Rick? +If you're not gonna help, clear off. +Rick being the dog. +You wanna keep that don't you? +Oh yeah that, that will be handy. +Yeah. +And the there's your writing set as well. +Yeah. +I'll I'll keep the writing set. +I think yeah. +I mean that's lovely. +Take that downstairs. +You can write to Mark. +Then you've got yours and I've got mine then. +Yeah. +Right yeah. +I myself. +Okay. +Well it I always think it's terrible you know, when people buy you things and you don't use them. +These windows aren't that dirty Mary. +Aren't they? +They're not that dirty, it isn't long since I cleaned these you know. +I'm only doing this as a big favour. +Eh. +I'm gonna tell Norman I got five thousand for the car. +So don't, don't say nothing. +No. +He'll be as sick as a pig. +What about these glasses? +Whose are they? +Mine? +. +Ours. +Your oh ours? +Are they the ones that er +Davina brought them. +Is that the one that's, one's broken? +One's broken, yeah. +It's got a crack in it. +Oh. +Well get rid of it then. +Mm. +I think we've got enough haven't we? +Yeah. +Yeah sell it. +He's not, he's not doing these sills like he said he would. +Like I asked him to. +Who isn't? +The, the window cleaner. +Oh no. +That's a monstrosity isn't it? +Aha. +We'll keep that one. +Wh who bought us that? +Alice and Marie . +Yeah. +And that he he knows that that flat's let. +Er +What? +Let to +Oh. +the brothers from work. +Oh yeah. +Oh that's expensive though, isn't it? +Mm. +It's a cake plate? +Yeah. +Yeah. +That was a few pounds. +It matches that bowl downstairs. +Yes I know. +Yeah. +Mm. +We've, I mean we've lost a hundred pound on the car. +Why? +Cos it er the tax er there's twelve month's tax on it. +Oh well. +That's neither here nor there. +Oh no and it's gone now. +I mean you, the other one's gonna be taxed for +Twelve months, yeah. +twelve months so it's as long as it's broad John. +I suppose I suppose we could get rid of the erm all these pay slips now couldn't we? +Yeah. +I think so. +I'll go and get er a black bag for rubbish. +Oh my god! +Hey well why don't you sell them at the car boot sale? +Well I mean they're only part sets. +They aren't actually worth a lot of money. +Are they? +No but I mean you'd gi maybe give somebody a bit of pleasure sorting them out. +Yeah. +and write on it er car boot sale. +We're gonna burn all these? +This is rubbish. +These want burning don't they? +Do they? +Yeah. +I'll burn them. +Wh why do they want burning? +Well I don't like things like this flying around. +The old pay slips and things. +So I I'll burn them. +I'll burn all this. +Where will we burn them? +I'll burn them in the garden. +On the top patio. +Have a little fire going. +I wouldn't bother so much John. +Yeah, I I would. +That rubbish? +Rubbish. +That's it. +That's the rubbish on the . +No, these are all foreign coins. +You can't get rid of these. +Will they go to the boot sale? +No. +No I'll keep them. +What's that? +Rubbish. +Well what's the difference between throwing this one out and throwing them out and burning them? +We'll keep the coins. +What did you say? +I'll keep the coins. +Oh right. +This box is going back into the cupboard with the things that you want to keep. +Oh, right. +Okay? +Well all this, all this is good. +I want to keep. +Everything in there's gonna be kept. +Right. +Is this your adaptor? +I found it in here. +Yeah I know I fou seen it the other day Mary. +Car boot? +No. +That's I want, don't don't chuck old and ancient things away that might be worth a lot of money later on. +I mean that's a rare thing. +What's that? +That one? +Is that yours? +Yeah. +For car boot sale. +Eh? +Car boot sale that one. +On the tray. +Yeah. +What's that? +That's a screwdriver set. +It's erm it's a carving set. +Car boot sale. +Car boot? +It cost us a fortune in . +Yeah. +Car boot. +Fifteen fifty? +What are you doing with my my curler pins? +Now there's a genuine . +Betacom +Acom Yeah. +What's in this? +Playing cards. +That's a good keyring really. +Yeah. +I, I think I might have that, okay? +Well you can have that and don't, don't want it chucked away. +That's a pen. +That's a pen. +Car boot sale. +That's a good tiepin. +No that's it's a Rover tiepin. +What's this one? +That is buy a helicopter, buy a life you know isn't it ? +Oh is it? +Yeah. +Hang on. +Put them in there. +I bought you that. +Yeah. +There's your other allen key. +Now what's it ? +You! +I find things two years later. +That's for turning on and off radiators. +Oh! +The one you've been looking for for ages? +Yeah. +So +That's broke innit? +Mm. +What you doing John? +You taping? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Everybody? +Yeah. +Just talk normal. +You know +just behave normal as if it, as if you don't know it's there. +Why? +I have to use the tapes up in normal conversation. +What for? +I'm doing a survey. +Oh. +How many people talk? +Yeah. +I I think er er it's +That's right, yeah. +it's just to erm something to do with the English language really. +Mm. +Mm. +They want to know what type of conversations people have. +I really want it on all the time now. +Well, well as people are talking in the house cos I'm getting behind with the tapes. +I've gotta use ten tapes up before what? +Saturday. +So we have to leave it on. +Oh John you had hair there look. +Should be another one of these. +Somewhere. +You looked a bit like that when I first met you you know and I thought oh he's terri he's terribly fat there. +Le let's have a look. +Quite slim really. +With them big long sideboards coming down. +Yeah. +There's a lovely photograph of you and me. +Yeah. +Mm. +Do you remember that? +Yeah I remember that night, yeah. +That was at er Millionaires. +Yes. +Ha! +Er where do you put the keys? +These are the keys out of the case. +They should be kept in the in there. +Hey John, do you know that bell? +Yeah. +You could put a bit of string round it and put it round mum's neck so you know where she is. +No, I want heavier string than that. +Hm. +Put these things in the black bag +That's car boot. +behind you on the floor. +That's for the car boot sale. +Will you get some sellotape Trish and stick that on to that bag. +Have you got all the suits and things in there? +Have you got them out of here as well? +No. +I haven't done that cupboard yet. +I've only just done this one. +Right. +In the car boot? +No I'm gonna keep that. +That's my jockstrap. +That's my good jockstrap. +Well do you want your, your box thing? +Yeah where's the box? +In there. +Oh I wanna keep that. +Jockstrap. +It's a good one this is. +The one with the box. +I'm not throwing that away. +Right, put it in the box. +And lift me the box up there. +Right. +Did something fall out?put it in then. +I want you to the box. +It's not easy. +Here. +Er it won't fit in. +It won't come in! +Take the white one out and +Er it won't fit. +I can't get it in. +Never heard such rubbish. +Should have seen me and mum in the loft then. +Oh we must remember we've got christmas paper up there. +Give us your box then and I'll put it . +Totally bald. +You look nice. +I'm not. +Don't think they've got any smell in them any more. +No. +No, they're a few years old them are. +Put my weight training gloves up there. +You should soak them in some stuff. +That's right. +John. +Hey? +You should soak them in some stuff. +Is that ? +You must have bought me that and I dropped it. +Bought it you? +Happy birthday Mary. +Mm? +Happy birthday. +No I'm ever so thirsty. +I don't know what the hell's the matter with me. +I've been thirsty the past couple of days. +I've gotta go and get a drink. +Are they warm? +Yeah. +Right, lift the chair over the for me. +You're not putting them in the car boot sale mum. +Mm? +Don't put them in the car boot sale. +Do they still fit you mum? +Mm? +Do they still fit you? +Put the kettle on? +Mm? +No I haven't, no. +D what somebody s ask me to? +No. +Well what do you ask me if I put the kettle on for? +Just thought you might have done. +No I had a drink of erm squash. +What about hey! +Johnnie. +We're looking through that Mary. +They good quality? +Mm. +Yeah. +or something. +Yeah. +They're a nice pattern. +Nice pattern on them. +That's about twenty years old. +Yeah, nice ones. +The lady that lived opposite me mum brought them down. +Yeah. +What wee Mary? +Solid stainless steel. +What does it say? +Solid stainless steel, yeah. +If it had said solid silver I'd have been down the h down the s down the high street . +What's this anyway? +Mm? +What's that? +It's an armband that you wear when somebody dies. +To show that you're in mourning. +You gonna save this purple wool? +No, don't don't even know +Yeah. +what it is. +Cos it's not elastic. +purple wool. +Soak them wooden balls. +What for? +Get the smell back. +Soak them in some perfume and stuff. +Oh perfume? +Yeah. +But does any erm +What's that Mary? +Just an empty box John but I'm probably keeping it for erm +Scrap. +Was it, did I buy you them? +The dust that's in there. +I won't get rid of this ski stuff, the goggles and things, no? +No keep the goggles and that, yeah. +Keep the ski stuff, yeah. +Oh. +I mean this ought to go in the paper really. +What? +Your camera? +Put it down there on the floor please. +This ought to go in the paper Mary, not boot not the car boot. +Car boot, no way. +Well you won't get a decent price for it at a car boot sale John. +No. +Where do you want these? +Cupboard please. +Your best bet is to put that in The Advertiser. +Yeah, it's too late er what day is it today? +It's too late +Tuesday. +for this week. +We'll keep the fish knives and forks? +Yeah, yeah. +It'll have to go in The Advertiser. +It's too late now isn't it? +Er Brian could have had that . +Mm. +It had the right colour in it as well. +Round his neck. +It would have gone with his colours wouldn't it? +Yeah, it's the right colour as well. +Keep it out in case he wants it. +Probably tell me what to do with it. +That camera, the camera equipment ought to go in The er Advertiser not the car boot sale. +of Y The Y magazine. +Where's the Y? +Have y have you chucked the Y out? +Mm? +Have you chucked it out? +What? +The Y. +Yeah. +I've got no money anyway. +Have we still got that? +What is it? +Let's drink it. +Mm? +What is it mum? +Let's drink it. +What's that? +What is it? +Oh champagne? +Mm. +It's time we drunk it. +It's for the first christening. +Oh it'll be vintage then. +Yeah. +What christening? +That's what I'd like, that's what I said to her, it'll be vintage. +to drink it. +Y what are you doing with them? +I don't know. +I thought we were chucking them all away? +Should do Pair, pair of trousers for it. +Yeah. +Ge get rid of them. +Eh? +I want a pair of trousers for it. +See her. +You were lending them to this one here. +Will I never go back. +No. +I might. +You can buy your own. +Right. +You should have a pair. +Yeah. +In your room. +No. +If there's some missing. +I haven't got any in my room. +You took them to Coventry and left them there then. +No. +No I don't think so cos I've never took that with me. +Is that two jackets? +Mm? +Is one of those mine? +I don't know John. +How can I tell the difference between yours and mine. +Sizes. +By the size. +Beside mine were split. +Yeah. +That's mine. +Mine were split. +Car boot sale. +Anything else up there? +Come on. +Mm, I don't know whose them are. +They're probably the ones I used to . +We need another bag. +Yeah +Oh I shouldn't let them go for any less than five pound a pair. +Yeah. +Mary. +Bible. +Bible. +Keep it. +Yeah keep that Mary. +Never chuck a holy book away. +Why? +Bad luck? +It's what? +Never throw the holy book away. +You can take it to church er next time we go . +It is isn't it? +It's gone yellow with age. +Mm. +The word of the lord. +Matthew Mark Luke and John. +Bless the bed that I lay on. +You can see mum carrying that to church. +Under her arm. +Well that should be downstairs and read every night. +One page. +That should be downstairs and either one or two pages read every night. +Why? +By one person. +To learn something about it. +Why? +Because it's important. +Cos it's what? +Important. +Is that, is that it's not a catholic bible is it? +No. +It's a muslim bible. +It's just any bible isn't it? +A christian bible. +Mm the , the mass. +And the priest, and the . +Might be a catholic bible. +Holy orders and a priest. +Mm. +Well not everything's gonna fit in that black bag is it? +Where you going? +To get the phone. +Well why don't you answer it up here? +downstairs. +Isn't it funny? +Look, look at how it's erm I mean it's never out of the box. +No. +It's worn. +Yeah. +No matter how careful I am with this lead it gets a knot in it. +How much were these Mary? +Can you remember? +They were at least ten pound a pair. +Were they? +Yeah, at least. +Think they were about ten fifty. +Eh? +Well, if we make fifty quid it'll pay the fifty quid for the transporter costs won't it? +Well I was hoping we'd get a bit more. +To go towards +Well it depends what we've got. +the poll tax. +Depends what we've got, yeah. +Yeah. +He's in and out of there looking thin and sorry for himself. +How are we doing? +Er you chucking them away? +with that jumper and a pair of jeans that don't fit any more. +Anything else in here? +We took those out of there and put them in your little box. +They will do up there. +You'll need to put those out. +They will be out of date now. +Right. +Is the Y did you chuck the Y out? +Chuck what out ? +The Y. +Look in the bin. +Under the stairs. +Under the +Is it? +Oh +My teeth. +I'm cleaning the plaque off my teeth. +Well what are you doing with the those unicorn things? +Yeah, they should be with the camera. +They put them in there for now. +Oh there's some envelopes. +Yeah. +get some stamps. +I've run out of stamps. +Trisha . +I have to list +Mm? +I will have to list, when I put the camera in the paper I'll have to list everything that's in there, in the bag. +And put it on a piece of paper and put it on the notice board so that if anybody rings up you can say well this is what it is. +Mm. +And just reel off what's written down. +Yeah. +Sh right, she's done my doors. +Where's she gone? +For a fag I suppose. +Having a fag. +Stevey-boy . +Today? +Don't say anything just yet but +Yeah. +Because she shouldn't be here. +Mm. +That's . +That's gotta go downstairs. +This can go back in the cupboard. +Did you like my card I sent you? +Which one? +Car boot. +Have you seen that? +Dunno. +Yeah I think so Mary. +Well what do you want to do with them? +I don't know. +Well it's only christmas erm it's only a christmas thing. +Is it, is it, is it a special collection? +No no, it isn't. +Mm? +I don't think it is. +It's just a christmas christmas gift. +Suppose it might go, souvenir. +Mm. +I don't, I don't know how much you, you you could ask for it? +I don't know. +Tommy bought it over for my mother. +Mm. +It's erm it's Disney isn't it? +Is it? +Disney? +Yeah. +Well you'd have to ask at least five wouldn't you? +Mm something like that yeah. +Five or between five and ten. +Do you wanna get rid of it? +Yeah. +See I think it's is it too late for the er the Y this week? +I I dunno, I think it's Tuesday isn't it? +Is it? +I'll go and have a look. +Is that it in this room, more or less? +I think so. +I'll take this downstairs. +And take the rubbish down. +What are you doing with this water? +Mm? +What are you doing with the water? +Oh well try and finish your doors. +Rick you smell. +We're never short of mugs? +They must be in the in the washer. +They must be in the dishwasher. +Yeah. +Still working. +Do yo want to run me up Mary? +What John? +Do you want to run me up? +Ring you up? +Run me up. +Do I want to run you up? +Why can't you run yourself up? +Well there's never any place to park. +Or I'll run you up while you run in to shop and I'll go and turn round. +Being as you've got the money. +Wants, it wants to go now. +Er the Sunday market's back at Elmchurch Redditch This Sunday and every Sunday Elmchurch Redditch Sunday market and car boot sale. +Situated between Elmchurch and Redditch on the main A four four one Birmingham to Redditch road. +Opposite . +Well which car +which car boot sale do you want to go to? +That's why I'm just now er I've just read out. +There's that one. +Well what one did you want to go to? +I don't know where they are Mary. +I thought you knew all about it. +Well the car boot sale. +Have I never took you down there? +Yeah, but I thought you had one in your mind. +Because you've been badgering me for weeks to go to a car boot sale. +Yeah well there was an advert in the paper about a car boot sale under covers in the Redditch market area. +You know where they park, that the traders park their vans? +Yeah. +In there. +But I haven't seen it since. +Probably nobody went to it. +But there's the advert for the Sunday market. +And it's got a phone number. +If you wanted to phone to see what time you should be there. +Well any time really. +They're rolling up at about half past seven. +Half seven? +Mm. +The the dealers are, yeah. +Cos I've see them, seen them going in on Sunday. +But there's no point in going early. +Cos there'll be nobody there. +Mm can you pay for this advert Mary? +Oh there it is. +Giant undercover car boot sale every Sunday, nine till two, car park number two, Kingfisher centre. +Which is car park number two? +Erm +by the town hall. +Oh that big one? +Mm. +Well I mean we could go and have a look. +If you go and have a look and see how many people are in there. +Mm. +Does it say how much? +Five pound +Is it? +You know I don't like paying out. +Mary +Yeah I know you don't like par +Paying out. +paying out, mm. +I'll come with you. +Yeah. +You drop it in and I'll I'll I'll turn the car round. +Have you got bring some money with you cos I haven't got any. +Come on it'll only take us, we'll only be five minutes. +I'm coming. +I keep walking in this rubbish you've swept in the +Is that hand cleaner? +Er no. +Think it's oil. +Yeah it's oil. +You're a terrible bugger for putting things things. +Well I put things in cupboards. +Oh I see. +That's the same, that's like Geoff you know? +Yeah, it's +I don't know. +Don't you want it? +You used to bring one home . +It's probably this one. +No. +them? +Yeah. +Did you hear what I said? +Yeah. +Is he gonna pack it up? +Otherwise you'll, you'll not speak to him at all cos I shall just pick the phone up and say +He'd get you into trouble. +and say you're not in. +Well I I'll tell him when you're on nights and not to phone John and I'll go and phone him like yesterday. +I'll go and phone him, put ten P in the phone and he rings me at the phone box. +Well that's alright. +I don't mind how many times he rings you at the phone box. +Now what is this? +It's oil. +What's it say on that label? +Heavy duty hand cleaner. +. +Sling it. +Throw it out. +Throw it out? +Yeah. +Where? +Down the drain? +In the +In, in that bag. +Anyone want some hand cleaner? +I'll sling that tonic water thing up on the next shelf. +Ah be careful. +Erm just check. +Be careful he tells me. +It's thinners. +I wanna label on it really. +Where are the labels? +one that lid on. +Yeah it's a +Yeah. +It's a glass cleaner. +What's that one? +Yeah, put put your tins in there and put thing over there where +Ooh that stinks. +Is it empty? +No. +it might be leaking. +Mm. +No it's not empty. +No it's not leaking. +Don't know what was in there. +If it leaks it'll blow the house up anyway. +There's my +It's always been in there. +bugger. +Life what a bugger bugger bugger. +Oh what a bugger bugger. +And a bugger bugger bugger. +that up there? +Oh that's it. +And your paintbrushes . +I know. +What's that? +What's that? +Paint. +Paint? +Spray paint I think. +De-icer. +What's that one? +That's off the car T-cut. +Matt black. +That's the piece off the light outside. +Mm. +What's that one? +Oh we don't want that. +That's empty. +That's empty as well. +Ah Rick! +Look what I've found! +Oh Rick look what I've found. +Oh Rick look what I've found. +I'll tell on you. +What is it? +Throw it out. +It's glue. +Solvent. +Shall I strike a match? +No it's all gone. +Yeah it's gone. +I I've had it for years. +Now I think this is that's brake fluid. +I've put them up there. +What's this? +Bloody rubbish. +Where was that? +In there. +I'll bollock him for sticking his rubbish in my cu cupboards. +What's that? +Tha I want that, yeah. +That's a special. +Who, who's had all the nails out of them? +Look. +They're expensive to buy. +You shouldn't vandalize them. +Is that alive or dead? +Dead. +Shift all that junk in one cupboard. +I'm just putting it all in one place, yeah. +I'm trying to get an empty one. +So that I can put this sort of stuff somewhere frigging else. +Are they off his bike, or what? +Well they're off a pushbike, yeah. +So they wanna go to the car boot sale? +Well I dunno I, they're not mine, they're Brian's. +Mm. +So I can't really speak +What this bit? +That's that's important as well. +That's for doing . +It's a petrol bomb. +Eh? +Yeah it is a bomb. +It's a potential bomb. +Oh my god! +Look at all this stuff. +I'm pissed off with that thing stuck up me nose. +Ah . +I'll take them to work. +I need them. +Are there any more in there? +Yeah +That's Malcom's. +That's Brian's. +I could take these back. +Take these back to the boys. +Cos I don't need them. +They're they're the sort of things that you could never get hold of, you know, that we always kept ourselves. +So I brought them home with me so I could, I could take in actual fact I could take them back. +Cos they're no good to me. +And I don't suppose they can get them now. +I'll take them back tomorrow. +Ta take all them back for those at work. +Cos I don't want them. +Better keep them. +These could go to the car boot sale. +That one's brand new. +What's that? +Mm? +Rubbish? +No. +Not really, no. +Isn't it? +None of that's rubbish Mary actually. +We'll keep it. +Whatever's keep everything in there Mary. +Oh, see if I can find something to er +Oh, bring the next one down. +They +Yeah. +might fit into the next one. +I thought they went in. +There's a pair of overalls. +They should be in the car. +Then if you had a puncture and it was raining or something. +They're paper overalls. +Just put them on and throw them away when you've finished. +Er do one at a time. +car boot sale. +Have to be careful. +Won't stay in there. +Yeah, car boot sale. +Yeah, car boot sale. +Car boot sale. +That's yours. +Rubbish. +Was that in there? +And another one. +And another one. +Well this is brand new actually. +It's a brand new torch that is. +Just wants a battery. +bought you that ? +Yeah. +So, what do you want, a medal? +Torch. +Have you told Norman you're getting a car? +No I haven't seen him yet. +I I must try and cop him tomorrow. +And give him the good news. +I'll s I've gotta say to him I've taken your advice Normal I'm I'm having the two one six G T I. +I'll say to him I'm taking your advice, I'm having the two one six G T I model. +Yeah I'll take that to work. +To the boys at work. +Well that's it. +That's virtually empty now. +So what about these? +There's nothing in here I can chuck away. +I've checked them . +Checked them. +Everything we need. +There's, I mean there's stuff in here we need. +No place else to put it. +What's them leggings? +They're my leggings. +They want washing. +Can you wash them? +Being as you want them out. +So you shouldn't try +Yeah but if I wash them where are you going to put them? +Well dunno. +I don't think they do want washing. +I think I did wash them and they wouldn't come any cleaner. +Did you? +Oh. +Put them back in here. +Conned again. +Tools. +Okay? +We may get rid of that stuff. +I'll bring home a few big boxes tomorrow to put +Can you? +Yeah. +this stuff in. +Okay. +Well we'll leave this, leave this in here. +I can take the erm that's it. +As long as it isn't over the vice. +Cos the vice has been going rusty. +The vice has been going rusty cos of the dryer. +Oh here's some more here. +There's another one here. +we don't want them now. +See we can tape all these again. +Look, I'm fed up of this. +Right. +That's it's home from now on. +Oh. +I found your chamois. +That's Brian's. +Brian bought a new one. +But mine has disappeared. +I mean it doesn't matter, I can use that one. +It's all the same to me. +These are mine. +I bought these with my own money. +What's all this black pudding? +I need that Mary. +I need them. +It's er fuel pipe. +Well that's the scout socket off the T V and that's fuel pipe. +Put it back up there. +Put it in here. +Well don't you need to go through it? +That that, no. +I I know what's there. +There's nothing there to get rid of. +Except this. +I can get rid of these cos er it's packed up now. +Being as the car's going on Monday I don't actually need the gemini er alarm. +Might as well get rid of it. +Treat it as junk and throw it away although it cost me more than fifty four. +It's no good if it don't work. +No, car boot sale. +Can we tape that all together? +Yeah. +Might as well get rid of it eh? +There's about four or five of them in there now. +There's what? +There's about four or five of them in there now. +Then somebody next week and pay a pound for one. +Oh that's right. +It does happen. +I want all that. +Stick it up on the top shelf then. +over there. +Stick it up where? +Er What's all them? +Do you want these? +Oh yeah, I want them. +Where do you want them? +Mm. +Might find a job for him some time you see. +We don't really want it. +It's car boot sale. +There's another up there. +Think it was hanging up there look. +Yeah. +Keep it. +By the . +Shall I? +Leave it up there for now. +Catch it. +Keep it. +I might want to cut your head off. +Oh look what I found. +Oh that was a kit. +Mary. +That was the kit. +Right, leave them in there Mary. +Well that's it for that cupboard. +That's it. +Er did you clean my ? +Yeah +It's useless is it? +Yeah. +Crap. +A thing like a a brillo pad does the same. +Give us that out. +I mean that's going rusty. +If that goes rusty it's no bloody good. +dry it doesn't matter . +Do you want the last link in, link in the chain? +Keep that Mary yeah. +It's handy. +Well, it's handy for me. +What about that? +Er, chuck it away. +I don't really want the bits. +That's for the washing machine. +What's in that? +Oh that's . +It's cleaning fluid. +Special. +Special cleaning fluid. +Somebody went to a lot of trouble to get me that. +Well I mean that's it. +We, we've been all the way round now. +Mm? +We've been all the way round now. +I've made tea. +I'll go and pour it out and then I'll . +Er are you having, are you putting any dinner on today? +Well you told me you didn't want any. +No. +Well I'll just have a I'll just have a couple of erm lamb sandwiches. +Er what did you say? +It was in the drawer. +Somebody had put it in the drawer. +There's a nice pink colour Rick. +I don't know what they've got in this one. +What's that? +It looks pink, the dog food. +Oh. +It's probably . +I don't know what it is. +They put all sorts of animal bits in these. +Yeah. +If you live in Australia it's kangaroo meat. +Mm. +I couldn't believe it about Jean's nephew though John. +Yeah it's funny. +He always did look a funny sort of chap though didn't he? +But I liked him, cos he was so funny. +It +He he's an alright lad he is. +He's really funny. +I thought he the way he acted and I I thought he was er a real comedian. +Here you are. +Go on eat it up. +Hurry up. +Hurry up and then we go out for a walk. +Go on. +pink skirt and a blouse. +It's over there. +Go and frigging eat it. +Come on you. +What's the matter? +Got you! +Ricky. +Go on. +Hurry up. +You won't go out. +You won't go out if you don't eat it. +I'm telling you. +Rick, your mum's there Rick. +Walking all over the grass that I haven't cut yet. +We need bread out the freezer. +Will you go and sit down and have your supper now? +I'm gonna do myself a sandwich. +For your supper? +Yeah. +And no more to eat? +No. +Well, I might have a sandwich later. +If I'm starving. +But I don't want a dinner. +I know. +And look at how long it lasted as well. +Could have bought that this morning. +Er and I had every intention of +Mm? +I had every intention of doing it this morning. +I ran after you this morning +Oh. +as you went out. +I never saw you. +Yeah. +And er I said to Brian has John gone? +He said he's just revving up the car engine. +And I and I run to the door and you'd just drove off. +You! +It's no good coming over and looking at me like that Rick. +You cheeky dog. +You cheeky. +the cheekiest dog in England. +Ah! +This isn't yours Rick. +This is mine. +I'm going to enjoy this Rick. +If I can cut it without cutting me hand off. +Oh I'll tell you what I will have. +What? +Yeah. +Some of them. +Some what? +Ugh. +Some of what? +What's that? +Oh yeah? +Supposed to be able to . +One for you. +One for me. +Don't know what can I have with it? +Mm? +What can I have with it? +Erm vegetables? +Or just eat them on their own? +I'll have some raw vegetables. +Some raw carrots and stuff. +Raw carrots and stuff? +You'll be lucky. +There's none here anyway. +Is this my tea Mary? +Yeah. +Yeah. +You sure? +Ooh! +Tinned tomatoes. +The dog's gonna +Rick go and eat your own food. +Rick go and eat your food. +I don't want them just yet. +I'm not that hungry. +I'm going out for a minute anyway,. +Where are you off to? +I'm going to see . +Well I want to know if he loves you that much when's he gonna take you away from all this? +Don't know. +Well ask him. +Tell him your mummy wants to know. +If he loves you so much, when is he gonna take you away from all this? +All what? +Everything. +This way of life and living and when's he gonna take you to live with him and everything? +Mm? +Tell him I wanna know. +You're joking. +He's got more sense. +There are certain things you can do with a sixteen year old. +Mm? +There are certain things you can do with a sixteen year old. +But living with them isn't one of them. +I mean you just kept breaking your promises +What's that Mary? +playing golf Monday and Tuesday. +And you you sat down, you worked and then you said chase him up and we'll play golf. +All day that Monday and all day that Tuesday. +And then you just come home and you say oh with my best friend. +What do you do yesterday as well? +Yesterday didn't do anything. +I didn't. +I got up and took you up town. +Bought you lunch. +You bought me lunch? +Where? +What do you buy me? +What did you eat? +Had an iced bun. +That's right. +And I bought it. +Mm. +Same difference. +So how ? +Have we used it all? +Mm. +Well . +I'll have a word with Roger. +See if he can get some more. +Oh don't bother. +Oh yeah I want to buy some Jeyes Jeyes fluid. +Fluid the garden. +Mm. +Ricky. +Go and eat your food and stop dribbling. +Where is he? +Oh it's alright. +Well see if it comes up a bit. +I mean it could be that there's air in it somewhere. +I don't know why it would suddenly start losing pressure. +If you can get rid of that rubbish tomorrow and that +Yeah. +there, and the doors and that'll be a good a job really. +Yeah. +That up there. +I want it to kind of and of course I ended up buying more stuff! +So I'll let Where'd I put it? +In the back,if you take this cupboard it doesn't matter. +Actually, I can eat that tomorrow. +Well you've got them spare ribs here,. +Yeah, I'll eat them tomorrow as well. +Uncanny! +Move that! +I was talking to the gannet! +The gun? +The gannet! +Oh the gannet! +I'm trying to eat . +No. +I think he, must have and it sat on the floor again! +Did it? +Mm. +Aha. +Yeah. +From where you're standing. +I wonder where he's put it then? +Oops, and there's cats everywhere you're walking! +Did I tell you what we had in our cup this morning didn't I? +This corner is . +Yeah it has. +Ha! +What about the then? +Better keep a label on them or else! +That have to give it to Ded, she's got a car. +Oh right. +It's the for us car tax. +Oh is it? +Yeah, that's what that is, D L V Swansea. +Oh right. +as a reminder. +So you're tax will be up soon then? +Can't say that . +Oh, it has come then? +Yester erm in the last couple of hours. +I'm feeling as if there's a +Yeah. +I hate that! +Puts you right off eating! +We can't have a new car an , and go to frigging Amsterdam can we! +Course you can! +Oh no! +You're not doing the same as up there are you? +Yeah. +Taping people's conversation, +Yeah. +and come for +I am. +You get twenty pounds worth of book tokens. +Yeah. +! +What? +! +Why not? +I know. +Well, we'll put the dog on it,if you've got twenty five involved! +He's coming round to feed you,see which one he does quick ! +The girl up on the end of the road was walking round with one.. +Oh erm +I don't know what her name is, Dot I think her name is. +Dot, Dotty. +Oh I think, I don't . +They go off today, but I don't if it recorded anything. +recorded it today. +Had my earphones on, and we all sat down at the table. +Mm. +We quickly put it on and we erm tried to have a conversation and then we'd walk off and I'd ! +Yeah, cos they wouldn't take me to bloody Amsterdam! +Yeah. +I never told you told you, about the lot that said hello to me today and waved. +Who? +Val. +Oh! +No, she's going mad! +Is it Sarah. +She's going senile, I tell you! +She said to John, have you ever been to Tenerife? +Don't go to and left my kids at home. +She hasn't brought us nothing back! +Did she? +She usually brings me a box of and and that. +Oh. +Urgh +Before she goes. +I wonder why she didn't? +Oh. +cos she's left the kids with you? +I've gotta go anyway. +Where you gonna go? +around today. +Was he? +Has he been to . +No. +No. +I dunno. +Look what I've, I've stuffed down the hole! +Says he eat +No, he's coming . +the last lot! +Really? +And then he's coming back on Friday again. +Oh! +I didn't know he'd even been out the first time. +Yeah, he come round. +He, he phoned you you mus , you mustn't have been in. +We're never in! +Oh. +Oh oh! +Oh well. +He removed a lot of the stones, and then John poured the stones he made him +Yeah. +up the stones and so the , they like they're alight. +Did he +Yeah. +? +They come back and check up on Friday. +Very good! +Right then, I must go! +Oh! +See you soon! +Let me get up! +See you dad! +No, I can show myself out! +What? +Are we going out then for my birthday? +Yeah definitely! +Right. +What? +Me and Mary's going out on her birthday. +You ain't! +We are! +Are you taking her out then? +He's working! +Are you taking her out? +He's going out with me Mary. +Yeah, I'll see you're alright! +then bye John! +Yeah. +Bye then! +Bye! +I was having a sing-along! +What? +I'm not! +Quantum Leap's on! +Quick! +Come on then! +Who said are we having a sing-along? +Dunno. +You could of stopped up, we're alright, I'm not tired. +Aren't you tired? +It's just part of the +perfect . +There's your show on. +Yeah. +Lovely! +Leap Quantum Leap. +Oh! +Yeah. +Oh! +Oh! +Monday. +Monday. +Monday. +Here we go!. +John the subtitles are perfect! +I'm . +Oh! +Is that . +They don't come out on the other side! +Oh! +Not at all? +The . +That, that's why I got me, the other T V. +Ricky, come on in ! +Well the C D works Mary! +The C D works okay. +Don't work? +That's alright, I've wired that up now. +Oh, wonder +But +what that was? +well I'm trying to sort the wires out, I'm I was that short of time, I had to cut some more lines up. +Gosh it's . +Want another ? +Take the kettle and go! +Hop it! +How's your swimming? +Alright. +They're normally out tonight she's let me down again. +The police haven't shan't bother with her any more now! +I take it want it now. +She doesn't phone +me up ! +I'm, I'm going out tomorrow so . +You cheeky dog! +you can keep it! +Got erm pins and needles and in this from, in here down you know? +And years ago I used to have sciatica,round the nerve and but it's only happens when I sit and then the last thing so I went to the doctors the other day and what they do, they see us around bash on, on the knee on the nerve and she said, all my muscles have gone! +Oh! +And and Brian said I'm not quite here! +It's all round here so the less I by here, all the and all muscles had all gone and they're all pressing on a, on a nerve and that's what's causing the problem and she said that that was what . +No, no reason. +Ha? +No reason. +No, no reason no? +Erm so she put said that I shouldn't erm +Oi Lights! +When you out you left every light on ! +Blimey! +Guess I'm back again . +No +So that's +No just leave it in my chair. +I won't be able to move tomorrow! +if you want. +last night. +It was real hard work! +Is it the girls again?. +Won't do any more ! +I used to go there during the day +What's he got mate? +What's he got? +What's he eating? +from work +What's he eating? +and but it's pure keep fit! +No, running about it's up and down, and stretching your legs and your muscles in your . +Oh! +And, lots of floor exercises as well. +Oh! +But yeah, it's half and half yeah. +Is it? +Yeah it's very good! +And, what's the difference between that and keep fit and the erm aerobics ? +Aerobics is the running. +Where you're running on the spot and you're running up and down you know +Yes. +what we used to do at the gym? +We used to do training really tha , that's aerobics but keep fit is you know in one spot all night and you work your body out. +It's very good! +I couldn't no where near keep up! +Cos I haven't been for two years since I've been to that one! +That's I shall ache tomorrow! +In the afternoon. +I dunno my limbs aren't too bad actually . +And her mouth's still shut ! +I'm thirsty! +Wha , what are you getting? +Trish? +Great! +I've got what did they say to you? +Erm well, you know there's a new college? +Yeah. +Well I went there and I had to fill in another application and they've set me up with er another interview at erm Health Centre, and that's tomorrow. +Oh good! +So hopefully that'll be my placement. +Oh is this on the Y T S Trish? +Yeah. +How much is that a week? +It depends if it's er employment status or not, which I'll find out tomorrow. +Oh I see. +If it's government paid, it'll be twenty nine fifty a week, but if it's employed status +It'll be whatever +Then it'll be +whatever +Yeah. +A hundred and forty pound! +What's on? +What's on? +Quantum Leap. +Oh that's good that is. +What time's your interview? +Ten o'clock. +I'm not sure which side it's on. +Side of the road. +I told you! +The catch. +Ay +If I ca well if I catch this side it goes round to Church Hill +Yeah, from here go +Yeah. +into town to go Wingates and tha , that way. +You don't go into town. +Ay +Don't go to town, just catch the one that goes straight into Church Hill. +You don't go as far as Church Hill! +Where? +You're going to Wingates aren't you? +Yeah. +Well you don't go as far as Church Hill then. +I know but the one that goes right to Church Hill, that one. +I know it, yeah yeah. +But I'm not sure which side it's on. +It's on the side you get off the bus. +It's there somewhere just by the bus station. +You ? +Yeah. +Are you thinking of going? +Mm?yeah. +Hiya +Hiya! +Have you done your round? +Yeah you know how much this exchange is gonna cost? +Yeah. +What for? +That's ridiculous that is,! +Yeah, I know. +I bet they don't do nothing! +All they gotta do is take you home! +That's all they go , and take you home that's all there is to do. +I mean, but you'd have to pay for cos it's, you know, it must narf +I wo ,an hour! +I know. +You need to pay for the . +on mine. +No well +I told the bloke, I look after that my cars in the garage . +You alright Ded? +Yeah. +Seen our gas bill? +Oh my life! +A hundred and forty eight pound! +Ahhh God! +Mine's eighty! +Mine's eighty. +What? +Hey? +Yeah, I put her on the bus. +Is the kettle on? +Yeah, I've just made the tea. +Oh good! +Berty wouldn't start yesterday. +Wouldn't he? +yes please dad. +So he's, he's gone in the erm driver today. +Has he? +And yesterday he had to take it ! +Oh! +yesterday with a flat tyre! +Eargh What's this? +with rice, they're ever so nice! +They really are! +They look revolting! +They do ! +I have mine with er tomatoes for dinner. +I'm going down for that job! +Yeah good luck! +Look better on your C V and everything else. +When did you send it? +Ooh, one day last week. +I mean, if I stand a chance I should be hearing from any time now really. +Yeah. +Th ,the there's probably er you know, no rush for them. +I bet they've had thousands apply! +Yeah I got the sun! +Do I just around it. +The supermarket? +Yeah . +It is in this country, but they're very big in America +Yeah. +and Germany and over there. +And they have one in Coventry. +I saw another +Yes. +in in . +Oh! +Do know how much they pay their cashier's an hour? +Oh excuse me! +Four pound an hour they pay their cashier! +Bloody hell!! +Ha ha! +Who does?? +Yeah. +Yeah, but they don't, they don't take on full time people though for all day. +Ah who doesn't? +Oh here! +They don't take on full time cashiers. +Yeah but no but you don't want to be a cashier. +No I know I don't but +, it's lovely! +Ay +Just a bit wet! +Yeah, wet yeah? +Have you been out? +No, I haven't +No +taken the dog out yet. +I'll come with you. +I've just got up! +Just this, tidying up about ten minutes I always fill the house up with junk! +You and me too! +Come on let me it! +Yeah yeah,. +Soon clear it. +now? +Why do you always want outside, it should be in any case . +She said how will he pay on the ? +She says well, we can only take up to the value of your car,, which is more than they did! +A lot more, well we'll have to see won't we?it could be nice .. +That's all they wanna know Ded! +Tha , that's exac , that's exactly what they are now! +All they wanna know how much you're gonna pay! +How much money they're taking off you! +Now who else had the same problem? +I think it was Colin +I told him about paint work under the bonnet, Mark had they'd mentioned some paint work had gotta be dealt with and that passenger door with the draught and I told them that. +Anything else, was there anything else, wrong? +No he, he only told me the two things, I wrote them down. +But the girl, I mean it just shows you, they don't know! +No. +You can she said to me G T A have only just started doing they say it's a new model she said, is it the new shape? +I just looked at her! +Oh course, it's got to be hasn't it! +Oh no! +I tell you something, if I had to go there, my God! +He'd have gone a bit +Don't it sounds! +Oh, yeah Pete's in again tonight? +Oh yeah. +Yeah,. +They're coming in three times a week. +Oh,I'm as it is, so +. +I think I've got myself again I go that last week, oh I couldn't move last week! +Oh it's well and truly bad! +What time you gotta fetch your car then Monday? +well sometime Monday. +I've, gotta get down there first. +I'm on holiday next week. +Yeah. +So we'll run you down. +Okay. +. +I erm I go to Jean for my dinner. +Yeah. +Smart car! +Sorry? +Smart car! +I bet it is, yeah. +and all that. +And it's all white! +Yeah, bumpers and everything? +Like the Ma the Manta one, that was all white wasn't it? +They couldn't get a red one. +The only thing is, is keeping the bloody thing clean! +It's between our house and shops wasn't it, the health centre? +Or is on the ? +It's in the centre cos, I remember where to look for it. +It's the other side of the road, I'm telling you! +By the bus stop. +New building. +Do you know when we used to walk up to the shopping centre from our house? +It's just there on the side. +Just before the car park. +oh. +Mm I'm sure that's up there. +If you to the centre Trish, they'll tell you where to go. +Oh,yellow gates? +Yeah. +I'll ju , just on the side of the Trish I'll you +yes, yeah. +for okay? +Oh, +When you get off other side of the road. +Go up at the fence and just ask for +will tell you. +Yeah they would, just ask where the health centre is it's there somewhere! +The centre. +I think it's just on the corner innit Ded? +As you go +Where? +er, by the bus stop. +Yeah. +By the bus stop +Same road +You mean before? +The bus stop before that? +No. +Now get off at the centre, just in +At the centre +case I'm wrong, cos I know there was a doctor's surgery there but I, I don't know whether it's the Chatswold health centre it's . +Well that's . +She's got something to do. +So who was down at the bus on her own? +So she wouldn't get a bollocking? +Probably yeah. +That's no way, cos she down there whe time was it, was it half seven-ish I mean, it's too late really innit? +Yeah . +This is a, in today's society in any case! +He ain't got a clue, now ! +Don't have to take I don't think. +Yeah. +him I thought, up him!! +Weren't he excited ! +Got , see you later ay +Yeah. +Yeah, off you go then, let's have a look at you, come here! +She looks awful modern! +Yeah, except they're only it's somebody who +Alright then innit? +Yeah, you look +That's alright now. +alright Trish. +See you later,tara! +Cheerio pet! +If you're not coming home give us a ring! +She won't be home early. +Oh well. +Mark left his gold chain here, it's under the . +And just stood there? +Oh no he stood up . +Oh did you find his slipper that's missing? +Yes, I'll string him up! +Where was it? +In the bag! +In the side pocket where he'd put it! +The dog must be at your dad's he kept saying,just take me home ! +You know, I what did I say? +I say it'll be downstairs. +Mhm. +Did you check this bag ! +Yes. +Yes. +Well you didn't check it good! +Where was it,he said ! +Must of been in the side pocket. +You must of put it there ! +I says I didn't! +I says you put it there, I said cos you used it last! +I says I left it there for your . +Well , is the milk outside there ? +No, I think that's the empty one in +Is it? +there. +Oh! +I've, I've no, that'll be done. +Okay. +Have to get something do you? +Well I was gonna come and have a look at the Fiesta that's all.. +Oh no, leave it today. +I mean, we'll go up and see if we can start it +Yeah. +and, you know, if it starts it'll be alright for another week then. +Cos I'm on holiday next week, it might be easier. +Are you? +Yeah. +Oh I'll, I'll have a look at it next +I'm working Monday, but I'm off the rest of the week. +Well I'm off on Tuesday. +I'll do it next Tuesday then +Alright. +So hopeful the weather's gonna be +Yeah +Is it still raining? +Yeah oh. +Oh it's stopped now though. +It's always how's thi , how's this? +I am pissed off with that bleeding golf as well! +Golf? +Oh +, how is he? +He's took it bad, he's a fine weather but it seems like +Oh then that settled it. +So he'd, he'd gone in the car today then? +Yeah. +Cos it's raining! +How much was this? +Mm? +How much was it? +Well I payed nearly two grand seven hundred and fifty pound insurance. +On the, on the cost of the bike. +He's wrecked it already! +No I know Chris told me cos he saw him on the morning at the garage then he . +When do you have your car then dad? +Er Monday hopefully.. +Do think I'll get five ? +No, cut it up I meant sew it up. +When you , how do you tell? +Have a little sign up, sideboard for sale too good to be in here! +Yeah it's a good idea though, +get hold of that cos that's gotta as well. +Well +It's rotten now . +It's Mark fault though, if I kept hold of it! +Put it outside. +The water will go, go down to it now, won't last five minutes so I'll cut it up. +Mm. +She did want it, but it's Mark Gotta go up the town for anything? +Erm I hadn't really, but I can do, I mean I don't mind, if you wanna go up town. +Weren't gonna get nothing, I was on , I only wanted some money. +Oh! +, I ain't +I ain't got two pennies to rub together! +I'll erm +Did I give you the pools money? +I haven't done this week yet. +Do it on Thursday, so that Thursday. +That'll be on Thursday morning. +All the we had we did this week or were there no draws? +No, it's only this week +And er we didn't +Forth week this week +didn't have many of them with ours. +We'll have to see you just do it. +Bloody hope ! +Get my house! +Oh! +Dad did you hoover in the middle of the room? +Yeah. +Hello Ricky! +You know that big bloody place has gone up now! +I hope it sucked up, I was really worried about that! +But that should be alright now if you +Don't buy it on it's own when they go wrong costs a lot of money! +I was worried why am I bleeding the system after I've done the radiators and changed them, you know repair the pipe work. +I've turned the taps on to refill it and the pressure taps they're in there till we fill the I was going round, finding trickle here I was going round bleeding all the radiators, the whole system had to be drained down! +I was upstairs bleeding the radiators, all air hisssss air whooshing out everywhere I thought I better check to see when I come in, that thing was full of water! +There, in there! +Yeah. +He says fill the boiler +and overflowed! +so I did. +And it's overflowing, that's the overflow there! +And you can see it's running down from the bottom, the pressure innit you see? +Yeah, here. +I'll have to get some water out of it now. +For some reason it's +come up. +Now where's that band? +I've been looking for that all week! +The what? +The bloody key! +The key to the bloody boiler! +I see it. +Yeah I do wanna go up town Ded. +I just wanna call in the garage to see my mate Rob cos I wanna take him a load of stuff back to the garage. +Mhm. +That's +Oh! +Cos I'll take it back. +What ? +No. +Mm. +Want a cup of tea? +I've just had a cup of tea! +Must of been another one. +Don't want another one! +During February. +He wants to sell the . +Does he? +He likes them here give us +Oh! +now. +How did you know? +Down in the middle now. +I knew there was a water leak there but if it hadn't with rain that it definitely was a water leak. +That's the only way the pressure would be down and the leak with water you know, it had to be a water leak. +My turn to er cook today. +What you having? +Potatoes, some broccoli erm Brian's having kiev, chicken kievs Mary's having something out of our bake something and I'm having cold lamb . +They got tonight. +lamb you know, the what's it one? +pack? +It's very in some sauce. +Barbecue? +Yeah they're really nice! +Oh spare ribs barbecue +Spare rib, yeah. +spare rib! +Is that home made barbecue sauce? +I think it is yeah. +Yes I li , I like home made, I make home made sauce. +And spare ribs? +Here's your joining the frigging A A! +A A ! +And then swopping the car with twelve months A A on it! +I think we done last time, for twelve months. +Will you get your money back? +No, I've already paid for twelve months. +Oh! +And it'll automatically from the time I tell them. +I see. +I'll go and see them this morning. +It's not such a bad thing is it? +I'll go and see them I can do that, they'll have to . +You'll do that then. +No, I'll put my big trainers on if I can find them! +I yesterday. +Did you? +Did you? +Hee hee again! +I keep being , I was really despondent! +Didn't like the idea. +See the ! +Thick as two short planks ! +Ded, do you know rats? +Yeah. +They've come from next door gotta be they've bor , burrowed down a ha , another +Yeah, what did the bloke say when he come? +He said, oh yeah you've definitely got rats. +What they gonna do about it? +Erm well they we , came again yesterday, put some more stuff down it's erm it's wheat with +With +Mixed with, put +poison in +some rat poison in it yeah, and they eat it. +He said what ever you do he said don't cover the hole up, he said they like they like to, they like to see light. +Oh! +So we've left the hole uncovered with stuff all the way around it. +Well what type of rats, are they just big black rats? +No, I think it's a brown one according to Mary it looked brown it brown one not so bad, I mean if it was erm if it was a grey one would of been a sewer rat! +Oh! +Coming up , which would have been more serious, maybe, cos it meant there might have been a break somewhere or +We was on about rats the other day at work cos Jackie was saying on her way cos her husband works in ooh God! +What's that place called? +Erm Dad, what's that, where's that where's where's the M forty two go, right to Wigan at the M forty two. +Down a bit, sort of like, it's going up er the M one innit? +Leicestershire, that way. +Yeah but, before i , it ended there it ended before that didn't it? +What's the name of the place I'm thinking of? +Tamworth? +Tamworth, yeah, he works in Tamworth and she has to fetch him cos he doesn't drive, sometimes she fetches him a rather that him get the bus home and so she was going along the main she said the name of the road, but I can't,th , the number of the road but I can't remember she says she saw rats just trotting down the side of the road,you know ! +Mm. +It's as though they were on a family outing ! +Yeah. +She couldn't believe it! +Then we got onto the subject, you know, the plague we a , we all reckon that it's gonna come back. +I mean, Birmingham is over run with rats! +They're everywhere! +London's the same! +That's the sewer rats. +Awful isn't it! +They just multiply in there's millions of them! +Why don't they do something about it? +And th , think they're having a real problem in Birmingham as well the they're, trying to get rid of them and they're down the sewers all the time trying to get rid of the bloody things! +Cos they're coming up you see +Yeah. +See any crack in the drain or anything like that, all of their burrowing and they'll get through it! +Mm. +And that's what they're doing, they're coming into peoples gardens and rushing down the sewers again, you know? +Mark's playing pool tonight. +We went to erm a party on Saturday one of the men that he works with, it was his fiftieth birthday and of course fifty years ago was the war wasn't it, nineteen forty two? +Yeah. +And er it was brilliant, the disco was! +It was on the, the theme was the nineteen forties and +Mm. +it was fancy dress! +I mean we didn't know this, well Mark knew, but I didn't know and there was some as Germans and some as English forces it was really good and it got erm the D J got all the old records and all that really was a good night! +And th , the er buffet that somebody had do erm, I tell you who did it, Brian, you know Brian the tyre man? +Yeah. +His wife had done the buffet with Clarice remember Clarice? +Yeah. +Aunty they call her or something. +Oh yeah , I've seen her recently, yeah. +Yeah they di +Was it goo buffet good? +Yeah. +Was it a good buffet, yeah? +Very good. +Cos they do that sort of thing now. +Yeah they'd done the buffet and it was all it was in blue red blue and white. +Mm. +It was really good! +A very, very good night it was. +That's where you met Colin and told him I was having a new car. +Yes I did. +I thought I'll give him something to talk about at the garage. +Yeah, I couldn't remember his name you know I know now, Colin yeah. +I can remember Brian I couldn't remember Colin's name. +He sat with us, him and his wife. +They're a nice couple they're alright. +They was telling, telling us about their son cos he's got erm a Nintendo game system, same as +Mm. +ours and apparently he's supposed to be brilliant on it! +He knows all the short cuts and gets thousands and thousands of points on it! +Mhm. +I'm the highest I've got is a hundred thousand so far, Mark's up to two hundred and fifty thousand! +Is he? +Mind you, he plays it more than me ! +It's entertaining though I mean I can understand why kids get addicted to them cos once you start, you can't stop yo you think +Yeah. +to yourself I'll do better next time and I'll do better next time and it's, it's all the time I must try harder next time! +I mean a, I'm a little bit different cos I would, I'd you know me, I don't like putting money in anything cos I I don't like to to lose money through a a lost cause sort of thing. +You twenty five Ded? +Twenty eighty! +Mm. +I wish I was twenty five ! +Well that's side A and get a couple done today it won't look so bad. +So what's it for then? +Get your coat on! +Ay +What's it for? +A survey on the British language? +Yeah. +Ricky! +Rick! +Where's he going ay +Are you ready Rick? +Where are we going? +I'll just lock up. +I've got mine. +the door. +What sh , what shall we get what shall I get Mary for her birthday? +Don't ask me! +Hey? +Don't ask me! +What I'm doing is I'm taking her out. +The girls I think Jo , Jean and George are coming down so +Oh that'll be nice. +if you wanna come out with us for a meal erm we're gonna go to The Fox. +Oh yeah. +And then we're going way up Chester, taking her up Chester. +All pay for ourselves. +Well I'll have to pay for Jean and George anyway. +Well you don't have to pay for us though, don't worry about us. +Erm I'll have to pay , cos I've got no money. +Oh that's alright. +So I'll put it +Erm +on my Access. +We went out for Sunday lunch cos I don't work Sundays any more. +Yeah, I know,, they're catching up are they or are pac , are they closed down? +No, they just want the office closed. +They don't wanna pay me you see! +Who's, who's there to cash then? +So nobody! +What about ? +They want in the office, I've gotta sort it out Monday. +Take your time. +Well we did. +It's like erm yesterday I +Don't get many figures. +no yesterday we had er two, two tills one was fifty pound short and one was twenty pounds up! +Well I found the twenty pound in the end but the fifty pound we couldn't find it, we checked everything so i fortunately I said to I had them re-checked on Monday during the day for cash up +Yeah. +and I said to Andrea, I says Andrea those two are two of the tills I'd checked yesterday in the middle of the day and they were spot on I said that money went yesterday evening! +And, have you found it? +No. +Oh you haven't, you know where to find it if you want? +Oh yeah. +I got the keys Which way are you going? +Well I'll go up this way, haven't combed my hair . +Shouldn't worry about it mine never looks like it's been combed in any case! +You know what next door's done? +Somebody said it was next door. +The rubbish ! +The rubbish! +Mary told me ! +Well I mean +It was terrible down here wasn't it ? +wouldn't of done it. +Ah they wouldn't of put it behind your car. +If he had of done, it would Leonard's, not the other side. +He wouldn't of put it behind the car I mean some people are stupid but +Well I co , I've seen him bringing out bringing it out in bags it falls out of there! +I'm not saying it was her . +Are they three, three bedrooms? +These along here? +Oh those, I should think so, yeah. +Yeah. +This cos er +You can't, cos you couldn't have inside. +Mm didn't like the look of that one inside. +God, we used to come here when we were kids you know? +On the way to school. +And we used to ha , we used to come down here some some evenings a gang of us remember I used to look ever so small +Yeah. +and you seemed ever so big at the time ! +It's funny innit? +Went on about erm do you remember the penny chews, like the +Mm mm. +the black jacks and that? +Yeah. +We was on about those the other day cos now they're so tiny +Yeah. +and when you're kids they seemed so big! +in your mouth! +Yeah. +That's right. +And one of the girls said yeah but you've grown since then, I says no, they've shrunk them! +They've probably shrunk them anyway. +Yeah. +God, look at that! +They've spent some money on this house, haven't they? +It looks nice. +Yeah. +Ooh, look at those though! +Yeah, I don't know what it is. +It's pretty! +That house is lovely inside. +This one here? +The one that's in the path. +Yeah. +, I said that looks nice doesn't it? +Oh yeah. +Before we go up the train, can we get to my house first? +Yeah. +I'll have to get my glasses. +Yeah, just in case. +. +I'm just gonna . +One o 'clock? +One o'clock Mary said she might pop home . +Oh right. +Trying to kill me again! +Pick your legs up quickly! +Ooh you cheeky devil! +Good boy! +Have you seen the advert? +Which one? +With the bull dog tha , you know the dog you like +George? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well the husband goes out and she's got his dinner and he's underneath sort of going +Yes. +his eyes light up +Yeah. +and he goes and sits there, and he takes she's eaten it! +And his little face ! +It's so funny! +He's a beautiful dog! +Yeah. +I bet that took some setting up when they ? +Ah yeah. +They must be sitting there for hours with a camera! +Waiting to get the right one. +Oh yeah. +Come on boy! +Oh I so I went to work yesterday nearly killed me! +Yeah. +I'm not used to working Tuesdays I can't do with this break of the routine! +Good boy! +What you doing ? +I don't even know why Theresa didn't come. +Ooh excuse me! +Has she ever come with you? +She does occasionally but she doesn't she, she won't benefit from it cos she doesn't come +No. +regular enough. +She's got no commitment has she? +She said she'll come on a Sunday morning with me and I said +I can't imagine that! +no, I said to her, I said, don't you tell me you're gonna come on a Sunday morning and when I get here, you're not up, I says cos I won't be very happy about it! +I says if you're gonna come make sure you're up and ready to go! +We went Sunday to the baths. +Yeah. +It was like getting into the bath +Really? +there was steam coming off the water, it was red hot it was! +Yeah. +The computer had gone wrong overnight, and was heating it up ! +All you needed was your soap and your shampoo and you'd of been alright! +A few , they'll do! +Put perfume on before he comes out! +Get out of it! +When, when me and Mark looked after him +Yeah I know that. +for a few days we took him up here and all up there! +Yeah. +I do, I shall take him round the garages and then back up here across the field, and then back home again. +I'm taking him for about an hour. +That takes about an hour that does. +Round the garages? +Round the square past Dartons past Cresser +round that square then back up the other way betwe up through the factories +Yeah. +back up the path again and then up here. +Lovely and warm today! +It's nice, it's nice and mild. +They're already warning of droughts aren't they? +Cos we've not had enough rain! +It's stupid! +When's your +France haven't they, I mean +I know for God's sake! +If you've got a water in this and our resources, than we have ourselves! +Bloody disgusting! +That's the same with everything isn't +Mm. +it, we look the country, we're ourselves. +Yeah, but what we had the Conservatives have sold! +We've got nothing left now! +We'll never get it back +No. +even if it was snatched back privatised all the money would of gone! +A million pound a day! +Course the most sickening part of it is, that the twenty five thousand with British Telecom well they're making millions of pounds profit everyday! +I know. +It's all to do with money before jobs now. +Oh I know, I mean we're victims of that at work! +people don't count any more! +No I know. +I know that only too well now! +time to leave this place! +Yeah well, when we go to Canada we might not come back! +No I wouldn't blame you! +You'd have to sell my house for me, and get +Yeah. +some of the money over. +At least you, you get paid for what you do. +Oh, I live so well! +I mean Pat and their house is beautiful you know. +Yeah. +in ten years . +I know. +I mean, if you went to America and told them told a bu , American business man that to invest in this country because we've got a lot of ! +Yeah. +. +I'm saying there's only two ways you can do it in this country unless is to stop on the dole and . +Yeah. +I go to work and earn . +Mandy was telling us, you know, about one of her friends she erm her husband was very high up in a company and he went to work one day and they called him in the office and says right, you ain't got a job! +You get redundant there and then, no warning, nothing! +So she couldn't go out to work cos she'd got young girls to bring up so they went to the social and the social turned round and said to them before we give you any money you've gotta spend all this bloody redundancy you've gotta have used all your savings, including the kids savings, and you've gotta have nothing! +And tha , that's terrible! +Why should the girls have to you know, lose their savings and money that money that people have given them as gifts just because, you know they don't want to give out any money! +Where do you go, down here? +Yeah. +You can cut through can't you? +I don't normally go that way it's walking through the car park. +Yeah. +If I go back along the path again he can have a good sniff there. +Yeah. +Well that's what they done to Dave , they were French weren't they? +No, can't of been. +And he er, went to work one morning and they he, they says to him you're wanted in the office, and he came in the office and he was one of the gaffers, you know +Yeah. +company car and everything somebody said to him got your car this morning Dave? +He said yeah so he said lend us your keys a minute give them back the keys, and he says and you're finished! +Yeah. +That's, I mean that's what they said to this +What about the car? +this chap +he said you don't touch that car again! +He said and what about my s gear in the car for towing my caravan and that? +He, we'll see to that, we'll get it off for you. +He says I've got some personal stuff in the car, he said we'll get it out for you! +Yeah, they're cold hearted ain't they? +And they never give him the they never give him his tow bar or nothing, he's never had them back! +Oh! +Yeah, finished,! +But, I mean Rover have done the same I know for a fact that Rover have done the same to some of their blokes, +But the , they're callous the way they do it don't, aren't they? +They're callous! +You no, you no longer er you no longer matter! +See this new deal this new Rover deal is being signed any day now well we're having a we'll be having a ballot any day now. +I hear, and you stuck the pay deal out. +Japanese style. +Yeah we've erm they offered us four and a half percent. +When does your pay rise come out? +April. +April. +But I mean, we only found out by accident yesterday! +Yeah. +One of the managers that come in and he'd been on holiday for two weeks, but he knew! +Yeah. +And he was saying, oh they've chucked it out then? +And we said what? +He says the pay he says the union have rejected it I says ooh, thanks for letting us know! +There were a big union meeting last night. +Where? +In, Solihull, I didn't go cos I +No. +I wanna keep my slate clean cos I'd of said something I shouldn't of said! +It'll all get back you see cos if +Yeah. +I go, I want a good reference. +Well they can't give you a bad one anyway. +Well no. +So when did you say went away? +Last week. +Last week. +Mm. +Yo , you should hear something. +Yeah, oh yeah. +You should hear a yes or no anyway, so yo , you can be sure. +Oh yeah. +Rough idea if you . +That's right. +You toe rag! +I'm gonna start, I might look into going to, to night school cos that +Yeah. +I mean I know I've got a lot of experience in a +Course you have. +book-keeping and accounts and all that, but I've never ha , have no paper qualifications. +No. +I mean, they don't mean nothing when you've got them because a lot of these people that have all these qualifications can't do naff all in any case! +Well they ha they can't do them, I've worked with the people who have got qualifications and they come and ask me wha-, what the basics! +Yeah, but I mean paper qualifications don't mean anything really but that's what people want, they want to see that you've got +That's right. +something written down on paper. +We've got our one of our ex-bosses,he er when he got the job is the first thing he does is paint all the walls and put all his certificates up! +He had about forty or fifty! +And one whole wall was covered with certificates! +I mean, and he hadn't got a clue! +No. +Not clue! +He's driving a bus now! +But that's what they look for they think it's clever. +I found out some erm some gossip on what da , Sunday do you remember Kate? +Kate, yeah see her the other day. +Yeah, she's left her husband! +Oh! +She's li , you know Vanessa, who lives opposite Teresa with the baby? +Yo , ginger haired girl. +Oh yeah. +She's living with her feller! +He kicked Vanessa out for Kate And moved Kate in! +Oh! +So Kate's living next door to across the road from +Oh no, cos Vanessa's parents Sue and Sus lives there don't she? +Yeah that's right. +And Vanessa and this David had a flat. +Oh! +Ooh a bee! +First one. +Dog's seen it! +He didn't get it though ! +Cos he eats them! +Ay you can have plenty of bees later on in the year. +Wasps are his favourite. +Wasps? +They're his delicacy! +When we have jam jar or anything in the garden he cannot get his nose out of it! +He waits for them to on the ba , on the jar you know! +And of course he tips the jar off eventually, and we have fill it up again! +I've never known a dog eat so many wasps! +Strange animal aren't you Rick? +You're strange! +You smell! +Ahhh +You're stupid! +He's not stupid. +Do you think you'll be going away this year or +No hoping to go over to Ireland for a week but not +Yeah. +book anything up, just go over for a week. +Yeah. +Oh did I tell you o our Joanie's coming over. +Is she? +Yeah, she's coming to see my dad. +On the +Oh lovely! +on the, twenty seventh I think of this month. +Oh that's next week. +Yeah. +Twenty seventh or twenty eighth, I'm not sure which day. +She's coming over to see Joe +Yeah. +and she's coming over to see my dad just for the day you know. +Oh, I'll have to go over. +I'm not sure which day it is, I'll have to let you know. +Yeah, I would like to go and see her. +Has she ever been over before? +Yeah, she come over for Joe's wedding. +Did she? +Yeah, don't you remember, do you remember? +I never went dad. +Didn't you? +No. +I don't know why I didn't go. +I wonder why you didn't go. +I must of been on holiday or something, cos tha , that's the only reason I wouldn't of gone, if I, if I wasn't in the country. +So I never +no I never went to the wedding. +No I, I must of been how long's he been married? +I had the Granada at the time. +Oh I must of been on holiday dad, with the girls or something. +If it's that long ago. +I'd only just bought the Granada. +It was the weekend I bought the Granada, I'm sure it was when we went away first time I ever took it out for a run. +I didn't go Rick! +Good old car that was I made a profit on that. +Yeah. +I used to love driving that around, it was that long, me sat behind the wheel I looked like a dot in that! +Made me look little! +The bloke the bloke that wanted it couldn't wait to get his hands on it. +Still got it ain't he? +No, he knackered that! +No did he? +He didn't have it long he wrecked it! +They started playing about with it you know? +Playing about with the engine and playing about with the body work, trying to do it up and all this and they just they just +wrecked it. +cos people don't appreciate things do they? +Well this is it you see , his son was supposed to be a mechanic, well he wasn't! +He was a employed by Dorrisons I think as a recovery bloke, you know +Oh! +cos he he thought he was a mechanic because he was doing that sort of work. +Course he started messing with the er bodywork and the engine and they just wrecked it , but then he sold it to another driver and this other bloke Bob erm oh +I remember seeing it round a bit +Bob , Bob , for a bit and he done a few miles on it and then he sold it to somebody else in the garage. +Ooh it's done the rounds then? +Yeah and then it disappeared then, I think, you know, I could see it deteriorating every day it was about, it was about three of my cars parking here. +And I remember the old erm what was it, Cavalier? +Cavalier yeah. +The old Cavalier. +Good car that. +And the, the Granada, what else was there? +Oh he had that Cavalier for a few years after I sold it. +Yeah. +Actually that wasn't a bad car either, to drive. +Which one? +The Cavalier. +The Cavalier, yeah, it was, I liked that one. +Nice car. +I just hope the steering's lighter on this one +It's lighter on that Metro you know it's ever +Yeah. +so easy. +Yeah, I hope it's lighter on this one. +Wish I could afford a new car, I'd love a nice new car! +We won't be able to afford one for a couple of years yet. +You could afford a Mini though. +I don't want a Mini dad, don't like them. +But you could afford to cho I mean, the cheapest Metro is only about er, six grand you know? +Not a lot +Mm. +to me. +Well with i , with his overtime cut we can't +You ne +afford nothing at the moment. +Yeah. +You see yo really you'd need to be you'd need to be only need to be paying back about four grand you see, though? +Yeah. +You'd be paying something like what I pay, which is a hundred and +Well I mean +Forty five a month. +He's got five thousand, Mark has +Ricky, come here! +He's covered in blood! +How's he done that! +What's, has he eat something? +I haven't seen him eat anything dad. +His mouth's covered in blood! +Have a look. +Come here Rick ! +I can't see it dad. +Come here! +Come here! +Sit down! +Sit down, sit! +Sit! +Sit, come here! +Come here! +That's it, now sit down a minute! +Hold this Ded and I'll prang his mouth open. +Let's have a look! +Let's have a look at your poor mouth, ah poor Rick! +What you done? +What you done? +It's the sudden, it just +Ooh ooh , open! +Ah Rick! +Hey open your mouth! +Come on! +There's a good boy. +Ooh I don't know what it is. +Ooh he isn't bothered about it dad ! +Put that do , oh he wants to play now! +You ! +You +What you been eating ay What you been eating? +I'll get you! +You cheeky ! +Do you still have his ball? +I mean, it could be just a piece of grass that cut him. +Yeah. +You che , what do you say now? +A ,i , has he, does he still have his ball? +Has he what? +Still have his ball. +Yeah, it's at home yeah. +In the summer. +Yeah. +I don't run him too much with it though because of his back, because of his +Yeah. +back legs. +He likes his ball doesn't he? +Oh yeah. +that ball. +So there's the there. +Ooh yeah ! +We lost her one, didn't we down that embankment? +Oh ey that's not, lost lost +Lost a couple down there. +down there. +The last one over there in the hedge,co , no way could I find it! +Got another one, had a big yellow one for her, I'll find this yellow one +Here are. +So Trish takes him out one day lost the ball! +Ooh! +Come back without the ball! +Right +Come on you! +Come on! +Good boy! +Are you going down to the garage? +I thought you was going down to the garages? +No I'm not,erm if I, if I take her for a long run. +Oh right! +I'm gonna go in now. +She's been the lav that'll be doing for now. +We can cross this side can't we? +All the way down. +It's gonna rain by the look of it. +I know it's gonna the heaven's gonna open again aren't they? +Yeah I remember you saying. +Haven't seen her for a couple of month, have you? +No. +Mark always goes and says hello when he's home, you know. +Yeah. +He always goes and says hello. +Ooh bless you! +Oh sorry! +You'll have to keep an eye on his mouth. +Ay +You'll have to keep an eye on his mouth today. +I know. +Just in case it doesn't stop. +Eargh Rick, it's muddy! +The contract is back again, I done all this erm water pipe it were all gravel in there sunk into the ground you know big hole in the ground! +We went back there yesterday . +Get all the mud off my trainers. +We erm had a load of kids visit the store yesterday +Ah yeah. +and Andrea phones me up, she says do you wanna do one of the tours for me, take the kids round? +Yeah I don't mind I only get the cla , the the lad, the group with the two naughty boys in don't I? +Ah! +They were . +Yeah. +Cor blimey! +Was there a teacher with them? +There wa , there was parents with them, +Oh yeah. +cos the school couldn't afford to put a minibus on! +So the parents bought them in their cars and they come round with them. +They were more interested than the kids! +There was one little boy the one had to touch everything now don't touch that pot! +Now don't touch tha tha , you can't touch that! +No, don't! +You know, it was all that all morning, and the one kept saying I'm tired! +I'm hungry! +I've, I want to finish now! +Go to your mum ! +Can I have a drink ! +That's all I got out of this one boy! +They were alright the rest of them weren't too bad. +We took them to the fish, well I took them to the fish and no , many o , any of the oth other groups went and some of them , they're very good! +The lad in the butchery, he was +Yeah. +brilliant with them, he was! +Yeah. +He really was very good! +And he give them all a ticket out the machine and +Yeah. +cut the meat up while they were there and put it in the machine, and that happened and all this that and the other. +Yeah. +And er they loved that! +And they all had a hat with a sticky label on and +Oh! +everything else. +And then we went to the fish and the one, oh I'm tired! +And he was going it smells,it smell ! +Ah shut up! +But the lady in the fish was brilliant! +Was she? +She got them out one of everything and showed them all the different fish. +Yeah. +But, we couldn't actually go into the department, cos you have to wear your wellies and all that. +Oh yeah. +So we were stood in the doorway. +Yeah. +Ooh and they loved every minute of it! +They really did! +I can comb my hair now and then we go straight up town. +And it looks like nobody'll be able to drive in their car, except for Aunt Mary. +Oh! +She said the only way you could another way you can cut your costs, he said, is, is that due to all these drivers he said, you've got it you've virtually got any driver on this car said just just have it you and yo , and your wife he said, and that'll cut your costs down enormously. +Sounds a bit rough dad! +Which? +This. +Mm it's alright. +It's growling! +I've never noticed it before. +Yeah, it does it's alright. +It's funny you know, since I've been having these new cars I see these old cars, what a lot of bloody rubbish on the road, you know! +I know , we used to drive round in them half the time! +Yeah, bloody right! +I still do. +It'd do me and all if I had to. +Ha? +It'd do me and all if I had to. +Don't bother me! +Oh no, it is nice to have a nice car but you have to make do don't you? +That's right, yeah. +Make do with what you ca , what you can afford at the time. +Another twenty years and my mortgage will be paid off so I can have a new car then! +Oh, don't say that! +Dad, if that's what you wanna do, nobody's . +No. +But as long as you earn your living that's nice and quiet,and you won't have no problems in that area . +We're not too bad because I mean +No unless you wanna move for a specific reason, there's just +Yeah. +no point in moving. +No. +I mean don't have any problem with the neighbours or nothing +No that's +like that. +that's what you've gotta look for you see. +The one side is never there. +Now, you see you're lucky that that he's, he's sort of over there +And the other side's detached so +and the other side detached, and how many kids have they got? +Three three +girls. +Three girls, see you're lucky really cos if they'd had three boys an i , in a few times, you know, ten years time like, they'd have all, the boys would of been growing up and they'd have had cars stuck everywhere, you know what I mean? +Yeah. +Though with the girls, that's a bit more unlikely. +Mm. +I mean, I know it s sounds stupid but that's what you've gotta look for today. +You look at your neighbours, see how many kids they got, see what age they are and work out what's it gonna be like in ten years time. +Yeah. +Like Billy were he lives, he lives on by the courts, you know by the Law Centre? +Is that the one who you went to, his house? +He gives me a lift to work. +Yeah Yeah. +Yeah. +And er these people, you know, next door like have got er they've got six or seven boys I think!gang of kids! +They're boys. +They said all of a sudden they've all grown up! +That's how we got terrible problems cos they've all got erm cars. +Yeah. +And his father's one of these obnoxious types you know? +All anybody you know? +Yo , I don't care what you do! +You do what you like, I do what I do, you can you know? +Yeah. +Please yourself! +And they've got this doberman or something that barks all the time like, and it's allowed i in the garden and it sits in the garden all the time and all the rest of it! +They just don't care! +There's a lot of about tha , like that though isn't there? +Yeah, they're probably +lived next to me, I'd have poisoned it? +One of the woman at work +the other day. +yeah, one of the woman at work she's a right stuck up old silly old bugger she is! +She don't speak to nobody, she really does think she's above everybody ever such a funny woman! +And where Carole lives out in Earlswood , down the lanes she lives round there as well. +Well Carole's next door neighbour he owns a bit of land and he's got some sheep in his fields, and he's got some pigs and you know? +Well, this woman her dog was scaring the sheep, so he shot it! +Killed it! +Which he's quite within his right to do, if it's scaring the sheep +yeah. +so, ooh there's been uproar about this bloody dog! +And, I mean, we, we was on about it one day, and she was only sat on the table next to us, ooh she was giving us daggers! +But I mean the chap was quite within his rights to shoot it cos it's been scaring his sheep. +Well apparently her husband, he's been round smashing his windows and putting +Oh! +shit through the door and all sorts! +There's really been a lot of trouble over it! +I'd have shot him and all! +Well, the police have been involved, and I suppose he's been cautioned now because they've investigated and found that thi that it was scaring the sheep and that, yes i , he was right to do what he did he quite within his rights and whatever. +So they're not taking any action against the chap for shooting the dog but now they're, they're watching the other chap for causing disturbances! +Just think, we nearly bought one of those you know, in there! +Two bedroomed house They were fifty thousand. +Yeah, they are rubbish them there though! +Mm, as it was we we hung on and +Yeah, you bought the right one. +Wa I wouldn't mind buying one of them myself you know wi I mean if we could sell ours +Mm. +you know, we could buy one of them and have no mortgage. +Yeah. +I should think +Yeah. +the cars . +Oh shut up you! +You've got your own frigging mortgage! +I know. +Well if one of us pops it, one of, the other one's gonna be very well off! +I know if I popped it right now, I mean yo you'd a and Trish and Teresa, you, Debbie, Teresa and Mark. +You'd have about, I think it's about fifty five thousand. +Bloody hell! +That'd buy you a new car wouldn't it? +That's if I die when I'm fifty five or over. +Bloody hell! +The is about fifty five or over. +Yeah but don't forget +Shall I wait here? +Yeah, I'm going to get my glasses dad. +Yeah, I've left it here for you right. +What about Mary and them? +They're in the house. +Oh course yeah. +Well just make sure you stay with the Rover then! +Ooh where have I put them now? +I can see now, that's better! +I'll go and try the Fiesta while we're here. +What's turn it over I mean it might start I dunno it let, let him down the other morning as well! +Do you know how the start it? +Is it +Yeah. +let him down. +No, it does it to me dad every now and again it just won't budge! +No every now and again it just lets you down. +Cos, Mark used to say to me, it's you! +It's you! +I said it is not me! +You open it to the now. +That's alright. +It's not just is it? +Yeah. +Is the choke on? +That's automatic, yeah. +Yeah, that's alright I think sounds alright. +Yeah, I can smell it! +It's Yeah +What's wrong with it? +sounds alright. +That's alright then, as long as it starts. +Need a the , these Fiestas , but they never get them right at the, the bloke I works with got one exactly the same as this does exactly ten miles and it cuts out on him. +It's been going for about two now +Oh! +leave it for a few minutes, then start it up again. +Well I mean that one once you've got it going, if you can keep it going, it'll go for miles! +Yeah +I'd go that'd go round the world that would! +Yeah. +Once you've got it going. +It's the it's got a and never sorted them out. +But if you let it stall on you +Mm. +you've had it! +one of wo one of the worst ones cars ever made I mean they do make rubbish, but that's one of the worst ones! +I mean we can't grumble, I mean Sheila give +No. +us that for nothing. +Yeah. +So I mean +Yeah well +she +and it doesn't cost you a lot to it really. +Oh God no! +Just a few pound in spares +Yeah. +probably up fifty quid of spares does it? +Yeah. +Couple of years. +Oh yeah, it's been a damn good car! +Won't +Which is the best way ? +Down Plymouth Road. +Ah, I see, I've gotta go down there then. +Yeah, cos you wanna go the garage don't you? +Oh oh! +Yeah I like living round here, it's nice. +Nice yeah. +It's a lovely area! +When I where was I the other day? +Can't remember where I was and I was I ear-holing really, I was listening to a conversation that this woman was having can't think where it was dad! +That's bugging me now! +Might have been queuing up for the keep-fit actually, yes I was, I was queuing up to go to keep-fit and there was a woman in the queue saying that about so and so and so, ooh he's moving she said! +And he's paying over the odds for this house, she said but of course he's paying for the area, he's moving up to Walford ! +I thought ooh that's nice to hear, we pay for the area up there then do we! +You didn't! +Well we didn't no, we got a bargain!she +I wish things would pick up. +I wish we could win the pools! +Ooh there's a few on that today isn't there? +Yeah. +The old . +The old bloke. +There's a new one having it's drive done here somewhere. +There's a couple of on there. +Yeah it's a bit further down. +Stan 's in hospital. +Is that your old erm there? +Which? +The Cavalier. +You can't see it now, it was . +Bloody sold it! +Oh did he? +Yeah. +Who's is the green one then? +I've asked him. +Jim's Granada that is. +Oh is it a Granada? +Oh! +Ha, me again! +Yeah. +Who's in the office? +Morning! +Good morning! +Morning! +Can I help you? +Do you need some help? +Yeah. +Monday. +No, no sit back down. +Morning Jim ! +Get on with it! +Hiya ! +I've just come to tell you something else. +What was that? +Callan says, he's come up for , no I've just come to tell you something else. +Oh right! +How's , how's his wee ? +Oh no! +I am listening yes. +No, I'm on about +Are you? +Could've showed you that couldn't I? +You can have a go later. +No, we haven't mastered it yet! +Have you? +No! +trouble he wants to get round and, give us a ring and my lad'll show him how to work it. +Yeah. +If he's as quick as my lad. +Did you stop +till the end on Saturday? +No, we went not long after you. +Oh! +We didn't stay much longer we went. +It's a bit too noisy there weren't it? +Yeah it was getting a bit heavy weren't it? +But the thing is, if you went, when you went to the bar it was still noisy up the bar! +Yeah, erm when we,was in tears when we come out! +Was he? +Yeah bit emotional I think. +Ah! +He was in tears. +Good night though,tha I did +Yeah it was. +I did think it was nice, the theme was good. +Yeah. +Very good. +Has he been to the show yet? +I don't know, he ju , I don't know whether he said he was going Monday or Tuesday, so he should of been. +Oh! +Should of been by now. +Cos we went over Sunday just to have a look. +Hopefully they might get some work in. +I've sold one the one that was there, they've sold! +Have they? +They went into the er Molly, she was telling me erm she with a bloke, I can't remember the they think he's gotta go to Paris first and then, or France, there's a show in France somewhere, I think it's Paris, I don't know and then he's going over there, they've had some more enquiries or something. +Oh right, good! +So er it should be alright. +Yeah, he's been slack for a while now. +Yeah. +They need some work in. +Trouble is, the Yanks owe them some money don't they, and they wouldn't er +Yeah. +can't get it out of them! +That's the trouble with most businesses now though innit? +Yeah. +People owing money. +Day off is it? +Yeah I'm on holiday next week as well. +Can't be bad! +What are you gonna do, stop at home and do the decorating? +No, we're just gonna have a a lazy week I think. +I did decorating last couple of weeks ago when I was off. +Oh! +Mark off then, or just you? +Just me. +He doesn't seem to have as much holiday as me cos I get nearly six weeks a year now. +Yeah, they don't get a lot. +So er oh thi , this is finishing off last years, I ain't started on this years yet! +I better shut this before it gets wrecked ! +See you Deds! +Tara +Gosh! +We can go in the car park. +Okay. +Ooh . +Yep. +I don't need that thing with me. +mechanic? +Mean a mechanic? +Mhm. +Which one? +The bloke with the, in the what's it coat by the loo. +The black coat? +Yeah. +Oh! +I sacked . +Oh! +He was an idiot! +Do your new cars have electric windows? +No. +Oh! +All the same. +sound li , the Honda engine Ded. +Oh! +It goes the opposite way to this. +How do you mean? +It runs the opposite way. +Don't know what you mean. +I i i it runs the opposite way to this. +He isn't gonna do that! +He isn't gonna do that! +Is that one there? +No. +Well they keep it the take up most of them. +Ah might have to get one of these get more room. +Yeah. +Just keep going up dad. +The higher you go, the less we've gotta go up in the lift, or up the stairs. +Yeah. +one of them . +Got one! +Ooh it's lovely when you're not having to go to work! +I bet that's then? +No. +Even if they say we want you to open Sundays now, I shall say no. +No, say, I can't do it! +Nope! +Yeah, don't do them no favours, if they say,come in Sunday, so I said that really! +No I've made arrangements. +Keep going! +Doggy! +I erm oh I was telling you about those till shorts! +Oh you missed it! +And Tony says to me, do you think we should let the Manager know? +I says no. +I says, Andrea knows about them it's her job she's now my, my superior, so if anybody let the managers know, she should. +I said if it, if she hadn't of been here today, then yes we would of done, I says, but I'm not gonna cover up for her! +She'll stitch herself up I said, I'm not gonna be responsible for covering up for the woman! +That's right! +I do what I've gotta do but I'm not gonna make her life any easier! +Oh my life, what's that! +What a mess! +I've seen everything now dad ! +Yeah. +That's so funny! +I can't +They , they do look funny don't they? +I can't stand minis at the best of times, but that's hilarious! +now? +Yes. +I'll go down as well okay. +She'll know us next time won't she? +Sorry? +She'll know us next time. +Who? +Why? +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Had a good look! +Oh is that just on, sprinkled on the top that is. +Yeah. +yeah cos it was getting a bit raw there wasn't it? +Dunno. +Yeah. +Ooh I want to make a note of this phone number. +Hey? +Hilary . +Come on then! +If Aunty Linda wants to know how much it'll be to get the thing, flower thing here again. +Oh yeah. +How come anyway? +Go back up. +Yeah met up with a new man and start again. +Yeah. +Well it wasn't Linda's business, she just worked +Yeah +for her. +that's it. +What did she wanna do it herself? +It was yeah, yeah. +It was a shame actually because the woman was Linda's husband sister! +Oh! +And she did narf she did narf shit on Linda! +She when +Did she? +when the receiver's come in and all that, she'd never put Linda down as working for her, so she got no redundancy pay! +Oh! +So Linda's ha , to had,to get some money off her! +You know, through the, you know the +Yeah. +redundancy and all that. +And receiver's and that wa , when they sold off all the business, cos they, they then pay out the money that they owed her back. +Yeah. +And she had a wa , hell of a job to get some money from them! +Oh! +I mean, she's family as well! +No I mean she she she, she wanted to try and set up on her own. +Yeah. +cos erm +How much does it cost? +I don't dad, that's what I've gotta find out. +John, Mark's brothers sharing the money four ways. +Are they? +Four +Yeah. +ways, yeah. +Yeah. +Mark's having five, and he's having five. +So it's all settled now? +Yeah and Sheila +Oh! +and Linda are having four, but +Aha! +Sheila doesn't know you see. +Oh! +No, he nev , he hasn't, so it's gonna be a surprise for her. +What you gonna do with the five? +Buy a car? +I don't know dad. +No, I don't know what he's gonna do with it. +Oh. +I'll leave it up to Mark. +I want him to buy a car but +Well if you do decide to buy a car, if you wanna get a new one, I'll over. +Yeah. +I mean, like you say, if we could put five thousand pound down on a car we'd have +After you've +you +like +know +you're virtually buying it cash then. +That's right. +For a Metro. +Yeah, you don't have to buy, you don't have to buy the top of the range Metro. +Oh no, I know. +But I mean he's sucked in at the minute with Linda cos she wants him to put his money with her as well you see. +Yeah maybe that's a good idea. +I don't dad, cos she's not a florist! +She's not +isn't she? +she's got no business attitude at all! +This is it! +I know. +I mean +If you're just working for somebody else . +No. +the +must be once but er she got +I do , I don't know dad. +I don't know. +Didn't you know him? +No,. +Well he, he does . +I don't know. +Erm +Did it? +I mean +I think the business we +she +went down +Yeah. +She knows where to get the stuff from and +Yeah. +she knows how to do arrangements and all that but she's got no business sense! +Erm +You have to be careful though or she could +but +you can lose money. +I've, I've said to Mark it's your money +That's right, let him do it . +and do with it as you will because at the end of the day then he can't turn round and sa , to me and say well you wanted to do this with it i , if it goes wrong! +Yeah. +He's only himself to blame then. +That's right yeah. +Oh, yeah. +What are we doing up here then, I've gotta get some money. +Yeah, I wanna to go to the A A. +Where else did I wanna go Ded? +Get something for the lice, or whatever, wood lice or +Ooh yeah! +And there was something else . +No, you've been to the Midland red. +Yeah. +That was it wasn't it? +Oh! +I'll go up here what have you got where have you gotta, which bank you gotta go to then? +Midland. +Midland we'll go to Midland bank first then. +And then down the hill? +Ah and then down the hill. +Still on? +I've turned it o , I, I turned it off while you went in the garage. +Oh. +Yeah, it's still on. +I hate these people that catch you in the street! +I know,. +No, I normally say I, I +Sorry, I can't stop. +I can't stop and +I just say, sorry I don't give interviews. +Yeah I thought I thought that was Rita over there, but it wasn't. +I owe you two weeks pools money. +Yeah, Peter owed me some as well. +Two weeks innit? +Yeah,getting paid. +Yeah. +Two pound . +I go , I al al already owe them from me, two pounds. +Remember the last time I put it in . +No, I won't. +So I borrowed two pound out the bag, I've got plenty of money in the bag but I don't know we . +No. +I don't know whether I've got any money in the bank dad! +I made a couple of hundred pound out of them Sundays in any case! +Yeah, yeah. +I mean I got a I banked two hundred pound extra last month. +Yeah. +Than, you know, a normal +Yeah. +four weeks or whatever. +You going in the bank? +No, I can go to a machine dad. +Ha! +Somethi , something wrong +Cos they accused you. +Go on, tell me I can't have none! +Oh no! +Give it to you trusts you, you see. +I must admit, it's never ever let me down but I mean, they know if ever they said I couldn't have no money I'd cause one hell of a stink you know! +I'd just go and say, here are I can't ha , why can't I have any money? +I'd just say, I'd close my account here. +I mean, they have guaranteed every week, a hundred and twenty pound goes in that bank every week! +And they get what, seven hundred and fifty pound a month as well! +Yeah. +Now, I mean there's no way they can say the money doesn't go in and the last couple of months it's been nine hundred and fifty pound, rather than seven hundred and fifty! +Yeah. +Here are look, that's all I got to my name dad. +Yeah I've ! +I want a loaf of bread. +Do you? +Where's that ? +We went to, did I tell you when we wanted a statement, and Mary said where's that money gone?on the seventh so then I come out this is fifty pound, twenty pound fifteen pound took hundred and forty pound, paid it in, in two days got nothing! +I said that's where our money's going! +God! +Must of . +I want our house valued now well not just yet, we want the garden finished first not that it matters a lot. +No. +That looks a nice house for seventy thousand there, three bedrooms +Yeah, I wonder where it is. +Callow Hill eighty two. +That's nice semi- detached . +That's only a three bedroomed, what he's got. +Which one? +That Callow Hill one for eight , eighty two. +Yeah, probably yeah. +Yeah. +Mind you, you're paying for the area aren't you? +Yeah, that's all you're paying for yeah. +there seventy eight thousand, three bedroomed sixty four to sixty eight,that's probably a fair bit. +See them council houses are se , sell . +I know. +. I like looking at the houses. +Yeah. +Gives you an idea what's er innit? +Yeah. +I mean,se +Ours is, I reckon ours is +semi-detached houses, look at that, fifty eight, sixty thousand for +Yeah. +semi-detached houses! +Look at that one for fifty eight! +Yeah. +I mean, what's a , what does that look like,an ordinary house, council house +Mm. +innit? +Fifty eight thousand? +Well,! +I'd be looking for sixty five for ours, if we were to put it on the market, I mean we're not +Oh yeah. +we're not, like, intending to sell it at all but +No. +Ooh we'll go round and get this. +Quickly, cos the lights have changed! +Go to Ded? +I'm going to. +Ah, I can't see now, my glasses are all wet! +Put sweepers on! +I ain't got none! +They didn't come with this model ! +I got spike on one of my boots. +No ! +I'd like to work for one of the building societies and get a cheap mortgage. +Ooh I thought it was further down than this! +Ooh I say! +Hello. +Can I help you? +No, +Yep. +And erm I'm swopping my car +Right. +and it's got twelve months er membership how will I take it out? +What you ne , what you can do erm is, have you had your membership card come through yet? +Yeah, it's come this morning, +Right. +or yesterday or something +Ooh! +yeah. +Is that what I've got? +Wha , what they'll actually do er they'll suspend your A A membership now for +Yep. +the year, until your your pre-membership runs out, and then they'll +Yeah. +re-instate to you, so you'll have one. +Yeah. +And then you'll be covered +Be, just about the same anyway, cos I'm having the car on Monday. +When you picking up the new car? +Monday. +Monday erm are you in town Monday? +Are you in town again Monday? +The reason I ask is cos they've obviously gotta send the card, if the cards back, you break down between now and Monday. +Erm +Tuesday a I'm coming to town cos +So I'll leave it till Tuesday, +Alright, yeah probably you're best , cos you're better off keeping your card just in case +you break down between now and then, you'll need your card. +Yes I'm +It doesn't matter if you come in Tuesday, rather +Yeah. +than Monday. +All you need to do +Alright then. +is call in with them, and then we'll send it back +Oh right. +to membership department. +Er, you'll probably get a temporary membership card when you get free car or your new car. +Yeah. +If you bring that in as well, we'll get everything sorted out. +Alright then. +You're better keeping the card just in case you break down. +Just in case yeah, I know, if I break down I can always ring you up anyway. +Yeah, well there's . +Yeah. +And then then they'll compare with you. +Okay then. +And you'll get your membership, +Ah, that's fine. +Right. +Thanks Right ooh! +Thanks. +I've just got all the rain off, and now we're coming out again! +We'll look in this one then, now the rain's died off a bit. +Oh look, that's nice one! +And the one next to it, that's a big house. +Yeah. +One seventy five! +That's nice . +That's reduced to ninety five nine fifty. +Mm. +That's not bad innit +Where's that? +Callow Hill +Callow Hill +Yeah. +I don't like them being reduced, that means you're gonna get nothing . +That's a nice one,Hallowbury Close +Yeah +in Yatts Green +How many bedrooms is it? +That's a three bedroomed house dad, I think, yes, three good bedrooms. +Three bedrooms. +That's nice innit? +Hundred and eight. +Yeah, four bedrooms. +Big double garage that's a good price that is! +They were trying plug them for a hundred and fifty thousand weren't they? +What's galleried dining room sa mean? +Where? +Galleried dining room. +Must be a . +Mm that one looks nice sold. +Yeah. +A hundred and thirty five, yeah, isn't that nice? +That's on the golf course that is, innit? +Is it? +Yeah. +Yeah, must be, yeah. +What's on this one? +Blooming big house! +This is the cheaper side! +Yeah, that's one of those at Rangeworthy +Well look at those , two hundred and fifty five that's a big that's a bargain innit? +That's a two bedroom that is. +I know. +Is it two bedroom? +Yeah, two bedrooms. +That's fifty five that was, for a two bedroomed house! +You can se , I me , you can see some of them ain't worth the money though can't you? +Yeah. +I mean, look at that in that,Ashbourne Close there, forty three and a half thousand! +It's horrible isn't it? +Yeah, that's it, Rangeworthy Close. +Mm. +Double glazed oh it's got a conservatory on the back, +and a garage built on but mm mm That JFK's supposed to be very good you know, the film. +I know, one of the chaps at +Sh +work went to see it, it's about four hours long or something! +Yeah he said it's very long. +But i , it's it's very good, it gets you thinking. +Yeah, he said it was worth seeing. +Are you going to next race mee , race meeting? +When is it? +I don't know, not very long. +I think so I think we'd said we'd go. +Yeah, I think we said we'd go. +We'll have to see what's, where we are at the time. +We've gotta pay for the coach this time haven't we, or something? +Ay +We gotta pay for the coach this time though haven't we? +Oh, it won't be much though will it? +Oh no, not if they . +Be a couple of quid I suppose. +I never got my meat out! +Ain't got nothing for tea now! +Well we want, I better get +I, I want some bread. +Where do you wanna get it? +Anywhere. +Run into Tesco's if you like. +Yeah. +I want a Hovis loaf, it's nice bread that is. +Yeah. +Did you hear that ? +What's your occupation I'm a bouncer! +Who was that? +That bloke up there that woman interviewing him. +What do you bounce! +Balls ! +He's a bouncer for Mothercare or +go that way! +Oh we'll dodge him! +Excuse me, can I +No thank you!avoid them,ask her! +Yeah, you should of said yes, I said,I'm all for doing a survey wi , I'm, your being recorded. +Oh God yeah! +Shall we go back? +Yeah. +I ca , I don't I do like these shops but I can't go in them. +No , they're overpowering aren't they? +Yeah, I've got a, the smell drives me insane it's too much! +Makes me feel so ill! +Oh excuse me! +Here are, we'll get some bread from here can't I? +Yeah, what do I want? +I don't want bread, I want eggs. +I know, you want eggs, yeah. +Get bread from here, and it's nice bread from here. +Mm. +I'll get a loaf. +I want a Hovis loaf, dad. +Mind you +I'll have one of those as well. +they're nice and soft +One of them. +ain't they, one of them? +Yeah. +It's only a little one. +Yeah, it'll do. +There is bigger ones here. +How much is this? +A big one? +It's probably . +I'll have this one want a cake or anything to go with that? +Oh, I shouldn't really! +What? +You don't want a doughnut though do you? +No, I don't like doughnuts. +I'll have an iced bun dad. +One of them? +Yeah. +I'm sorry but that's all I've got, alright? +Yeah. +Ay +I said I've +You paying? +Ay +You're not paying for mine are you? +No did you want me to? +No cos I wanna get the er . +Thank you. +Yes please! +And an iced bun and an apple turnover please? +Oh alright,. +And a pound out the till! +They don't do that . +Forty pence please. +Yeah. +Sorry! +The , these are nice, these look nice but they're not +Oh yeah I bet they're nice and fresh. +They're +Yeah +made on the premises +the +I think by the looks of it. +I like, oh yeah yeah. +they look nice don't they? +They look nice yeah. +up here Ded? +Yeah. +We have them bought in daily. +Yeah. +Same sort of thing but obviously th , they wouldn't those would be a lot nicer there I think. +Yeah. +Sorry, I thought you'd seen pick these up. +I'm not queuing ay No I didn't. +I thought that black bloke had picked them up . +Oh! +Ought to go back again quick! +Before he disappeared out the door! +He wouldn't of got out! +These ever so heavy! +Hey? +It's low! +Yeah, mine's getting heavy as well, we need a carrier bag. +Ooh I like them jumpers dad. +I like that. +Yeah,that is. +That's really nice that is! +I'm not sure about the white one though. +Let's go and watch that. +And, I like that you know. +That's nice innit? +Yeah. +You say there's somebody at the ?it's a thing +Thirty one ninety nine. +thirty one, thirty one ninety that is. +That's nice that is dad. +Next time we're here on Friday er +You're here Wednesdays and Fridays yeah. +I thought he said,Fridays, I thought he said a week Friday. +No, next day will be Friday. +Friday so it's Wednesday and Friday, right? +Thanks! +I'm not up next Wednesday. +I am. +Er e , even there's a nice one look! +Yeah I know. +But, what are we after, eggs? +You want eggs? +Ey di , now did you want anything else? +Oh, so you can get them in here can't you?that's good! +It's gone a bit colder now hasn't it? +It wasn't cold earlier on! +It's really mild then. +You what sorry? +nice, it was ever so mild. +Yeah it was. +Yeurgh I , where do you, where do you get your eggs from? +Mm? +Where will you get your eggs from? +Round the corner. +Oh right. +I wanna get the spuds. +They're good portions aren't they? +Yeah. +Yeah. +How much are they in Tesco's? +Are they twice that? +That's two fifty and pound though! +More . +About the same. +Yeah about the same. +Yeah about the same , yeah. +Can I have a pound of chicken breasts please? +Sixty two? +Yeah. +Can I have a carrier bag as well please? +Free range eggs, two twenty per tray. +Oh yeah, that's enough yeah. +I'll have some free range eggs as well. +How many would you like? +Er a dozen please? +Turkey wings. +Do you still them dad ! +Ah? +Them turkey wings +Yeah. +Like a joint innit? +Yeah. +Ooh I don't! +Don't you? +I don't like turkey do I? +No. +Thank you! +Thank you. +Put that in there Ded. +Yeah. +And the chicken as well? +Yeah, yeah and them . +Do, I mean, a lot of people are doing these now, know these pizzas? +Yeah. +They look quite good don't they? +That's a nearly two pound one, they're big ain't they? +Mm. +Need to get one of them . +Oh that's good! +Gonna get them? +Yeah, ninety +nine P bag of chicken nuggets +Oh! +ninety nine P that's cheap dad! +Yeah, a bag of nuggets. +Mm. +That's cheap!that's forty P. +One ninety nine I mean that's +Trouble is, there's only me that eats it! +Yeah. +Ooh, I love my meat now, I couldn't give up my meat! +Yeah. +I couldn't do that. +Do you know, I reckon you're better off coming into to somewhere like this to buy it. +Oh I do. +Rather than er paying Tesco's prices, don't you dad? +I'll buy the +Ah? +. +Ah? +Yeah. +Don't you dad? +Yeah, buy them for one ninety nine there. +We Where have we gotta go now? +Don't know. +Caulies look nice dad. +Yeah, they do. +How much are they? +Sixty P. +Oh, cheap! +But I, I don't get anything now. +We've gotta go back go home then. +Let's go! +Well you got me for the day today, cos I can't go now until I fetch the car. +What time you gotta fetch it? +Five. +Five. +May as well make our way back to the car then +Yeah. +hadn't we? +Might as well have dinner then, with us because we'll be having dinner about five. +No, I can't cos I'll have to do Marks. +Oh. +Is he is he still got overtime? +No. +Basic hours now? +Yeah. +Mind you, they'll probably wanna do overtime next week! +Ye , yeah. +Colin was just saying, I mean,his wife works in the office and she hears a lot of what's going on. +. +The Americans owe the company money and they're waiting for that and also the , they sold one of the machines at the exhibition so, and they've had some enquiries, so hopefully they'll bring some work in. +Twenty pence. +Thank you. +Thanks. +I think I'll have to leave Mark. +Go and work on Andrew! +It's picking up ! +Yeah you wanna . +Yeah. +Then you'll have to do +I thought erm +Your brother +Yeah. +Well the thing is Dianne and and Charles, they haven't known it, it's never worked from day one +Yeah. +apparently! +That's right. +But, because of the position he holds in the community +Yeah , that's right. +they, they make them stay together. +He's not who's gonna give up Queen of England anyway? +Well that's right,. +I don't blame her! +Make his life miserable, stick with him! +Well think of the money! +As long as he don't start beating her about, she's +to stay where she is, isn't she? +Yeah, just think of the money! +That's it. +. +Me, changed sides now. +Ay +I keep moving this from side to side cos we keep swopping. +Sammy went erm ice skating with one of her friends +Yeah. +a couple of weeks ago. +Yeah. +Do you know, she's had no pocket money since? +Why? +To pay for it. +She had to pay for it herself and now, she's had no pocket money since! +She ge , I think she gets half, half her pocket money this week cos she's paying +Christ! +How much +she sa +does he give them? +Erm I think they get a pound a week dad. +Is that all? +Yeah. +I mean, really Sammy should be getting a bit more than that now shouldn't she? +I mean, really +Pocket money +they both +give +ju +her a pound or something. +they both sho , ooh don't you say nothing! +Oh no. +No. +Dad, they both should get more now, because they have to buy their own comics and that. +Yeah! +Oh, well that's +it's out their pocket money! +giving them . +I always give them some when I, when I see them, I try and give them you know +Yeah. +odd fifty P here, and pound here and I always try to give them a little bit. +They, we were I, I didn't know till Sunday. +Oh. +We went the shop and she Anthony a pound, she give Sam a pound I mean, she was a good girl and she'd afterwards cos she'd opened her mouth but she said, I shouldn't have had any should I? +And she took it straight off her! +No you shouldn't, you're right! +I says, oh Sam, you are a good girl for being honest, I says, don't get upset, I said +You should of said, you'll be docked pay! +Yeah ! +Yeah. +I said you are a good girl for being honest, I said, don't, don't get upset, I says, cos you'll get your pocket money next week. +I won't, she says, I'm only having half next week! +And then I've paid for it she says! +But that's mean dad! +It is yeah, she don't have to though isn't she? +I shouldn't say half the things I do say, but I ge I get upset I do! +The way she's she is to Sammy she's, she's awful to her! +I don't know why. +Mm. +And she's not the same to Anthony, she does treat them differently! +Does she? +Yeah yeah. +I mean, Mark don't say much, he keeps his mouth shut! +He ignores a, a lot of things that go on but even he passed comment the other the other week when we was at bingo when we were coming out he said er he says she's horrible to Sam that sometimes! +It's a shame! +The thing is you can't, you can't say nothing to her. +No no I know. +You can't, you can't speak to her at all! +No. +Because she , she goes in off the deep end and you +yeah. +know you're you lose out opening your mouth then! +Yeah. +We're on the to aren't we? +Oh that's alright then weren't it! +Oh I owe you two forty don't I? +I'll give you Teresa's as well, then she can pay me back tomorrow. +So I'll gi , if I give you five pound that's covers the the pools money for the last two +Yeah. +the last week and this week. +Okay. +Oh I can! +Oh! +Do you get free membership with most new cars now, for the A A? +Ah yeah, well you used to get one of one of them anyway. +Not necessarily the A A, could be er +R A C. +R A C, you know. +Have you got some money for the car park? +I've got change. +Here are, Major's on the front as well! +Silly moo! +Labour's poll lead as Major drops a cha clangers! +Bumbling John Major dropped one clanger after another yesterday as Britain's economy took yet another hammering and last night he was reeling as two new opinion polls showed Labour verging ahead to a five point lead, enough to put them into Westminster with an overall majority . +Oh! +Everybody's saying now, that it looks as if the Labour are now good, but what can they do to us Ded? +It doesn't matter who gets in power dad! +We , we're gonna be just as bad off I think! +You see the thing is that we want the economy to pick up. +Yeah. +We want our houses to go up in in value and this sort of is not important to us! +We want things moving! +That's it, yeah. +Nothing's happening at the moment! +No,i ,i , the country has laid dormant, hasn't it, for the last +Yeah, yeah. +three four years, it's gone down? +Everybody says, oh if the, if Labour go into power, all the money leaves the country! +That's a load of rubbish that is! +It's the ones that are frightened! +That was erm +Do you want a sandwich? +Do you want a sandwich? +Yes, love +Do you want +erm, well there's cold lamb, you like cold lamb? +Lovely lamb +No, I don't want it +Cheese +I'd have cheese, you can have cold lamb love, I'm not keen on cold lamb Ricky will have pork chop +I like it +Yeah Them things that Patricia had put to you were disgusting. +No I wouldn't eat them Right where's Ted for? +I've put it away +What's Ted tea doing out? +Mm why you get it? +How many of those have you got to do, twenty? +Pardon? +Twenty +Which? +tapes +whatever you can, there's no stipulation you've got to do so many, you have to do whatever you can, but I expect some people can take them to work and just leave them on can't they? +Yeah +It's just something that we can't do I'm afraid so so we're on five now +Yeah, they are, you prob +Er about five past one I should think +Just our Jane just popping round +No +coming round to see me I suppose she doesn't want anything to eat cos she brought a sandwich with her from work, she took a sandwich to work with her hello you, nearly food time, have you smelt something to eat Ricky? +Have you smelt something to eat, poor dog, wait a minute, I'll find you something, get down, sit, sit there, stay there. +You get feeding better than the rest of us you do. +Yes, sit, stay there +Yes, thank you, here you are Ricky here's for you, where you gone, Ricky where've you gone? +Right, sit. +You need +Flowers are coming up ain't they? +Yeah they're all up now, and they've come out just as +come to life +What's it? +Put the clock behind there. +I ain't dressed mind you know +Who cares? +in the middle, got to hang, two foot from the tree +Oh yeah +and this bloke nearly had the sense, he said he's coming up on the Friday? +Yeah, yeah +Well he's coming up really strong that's its +Mind way it's putting the garden out there it never died off, must of been wild or something. +Well it is +Mm, I know +You won't like my +cheese +I nearly, against the wine there huh +Sa cheese you are Ricky +You joking, mm, he eats anything now +I'll take us something she'll be going to work when were +Mm +don't eat in the canteen any more I'm sure they're trying to poison us all I didn't think that pair was suited in any case +No +Is that who's she's been seeing? +Paddy McNally +One of them +Oh +the other one was that Wa Watts the American millionaire. +That's it Watts +I've told him that's +in this house during the day +I thought if anybody he'll be as normal rule he would +Yeah +and Charles is a stick in the mud and the other one's the other way, seems to be the other way inclined At least she won't, won't be er a short of a bob or two will she? +Oh no, we'll pay to keep her for a long time +Well if she rubbed shoulders with a millionaire, so she'll be permanently looked after I'm sure. +Yeah. +Its a good ending +Can I have the wine? +Mm +Can we have the wine? +I keep thinking today's Thursday I don't know why +Thursday +Yeah. +I keep thinking today's Monday +I, I, I thought it was Thursday all day. +Actually I, I was gonna buy you an evening meal with this spot the ball +The bird thing start and said to Debbie this morning when she brought the car in, how you going to pay? +That's exactly what they said to Mike the clerk, how you going to pay? +I can take it over there for the first service which is free anyway and I can take it back to Swansea for the others can't I? +Mm. +Have a day out at June's +If I had +ability coming back +That's nice, not long then? +Well you'll have to go on your own John +I know I think Steve wants to come with me. +Oh, why's that? +Cos he said to me how, you going up on your own? +I said well thanks, I knew what he was getting at, I said I'm not sure but then he started saying cos, well, you know, what, if you want somebody to go with you like, I'll got, I started going up +Wow, wow, wow. +Yeah, +do you realize you've run out of whisky? +Have a +I've got +cos there's none in the cupboard +Mm, mm +well there's none in there +That's cos you were going to have a look +were you? +No +Are you taking Steve with you? +No +Why? +I don't want to. +Why? +I don't want him there, he'll put me under too much pressure, cos he'll want his, as soon as he's seen his family he'll wanna get back. +Will you be having Stan down? +Did we have Stan down? +Will you be having him down? no +We've already done it +Have ya? +Yeah, cos at that time he came in +yeah +their were in, their arrive +and then they would of realised that +wasn't working, and then he would of turned the whip +Yeah, but this wasn't discovered until he went for his pass +exam +what before his exam for his test?, he'd have gone for his medical and it was found on his +at his medical. +The Chief, the Medical Officer, who ever it was, it was a doctor who had said go and see your own doctor, and his own doctor sent him to see a specialist. +Right, I won't go round there, +and then they would of put in for +No, yeah +I've gotta take him out yet. +Will you be taking the lead as it +Yeah +Can you , +and he will say in a minute don't buy me no more mince dear. +No, I'll have egg and chips when I come home tomorrow, right what, what do you want? +What do you want now, ah, that's it push me over you aren't half cheeky, no wonder Mary tells me off the way I treat ya, ah? +You are awful, yeah, is that right, ain't it? +Do you love me now? +Gonna give me a big kiss, oh, good boy. +I don't really want it, but +When is this bloke supposed to be phoning? +I'm just telling you so you're not moody on the phone +I'm never rude on the phone I could say she's not in +He'll find out + +The two companies concerned are trying to record the spoken word. +We don't want you on tape. +So the thing, the thing to do is to sort of dot around in the conversation things like pre antidisestablishmentarianism. +And hopefully +This will get modern usage of words. +Of, one of the words that she was talking about, people have started using wicked for a normal phrase. +I mean, it doesn't mean what it says in the dictionary any more. +That's a really wicked thing to say, he went, no it's not it's bad, it's not wicked. +He thinks of wicked as being good, he doesn't, cause Mandy says wicked. +Yeah. +Well that's the idea anyway. +He goes round saying wicked, it's his favourite word. +Are you going to go to sleep, eh? +Please That doesn't mean much, does it? +She's just looking over there to see which one she wants to throw up on. +Who do you want to go and gurgle at? +Eh? +Oh not Uncle Brian, no no no. +No? +Have you had enough grub for a little while? +There you are, go and see somebody. +she's got a ginormous one. +She had it . +Well don't to me I've only just you +Come on, give Auntie Pauline a nice smile. +Go on, you do lovely smiles. +If she smiles it will be at your hairline. +Pardon? +She won't be able to see that far, will she? +She might be able to see a blurred shape. +she's just looked this way now. +She kept looking over there. +Don't know what she was looking at. +What were you looking at? +Well she definitely looks at her mobile. +Yeah? +I know it drives you mad, the music but er +I wouldn't mind if those blasted slightly longer life in terms of the music they played. +But unfortunately, you know, it's or whatever. +But it's over again. +Well, yes. +Well I mean that's what's nice for them, isn't it? +Yeah. +You see they've got a short concentration. +Do you think music in the background sort of, do all the lyrics as well . +Oh of course Oh well done. +the last half hour. +a little bit wasn't it? +She's had a lot of that today. +Have you? +Well don't put it on too loud, will you? +why babies have a suck there. +You say they're having milk, he went, what do you mean? +Milk? +What do you mean milk comes out there? +So I said well it's only when you've just had a baby like, you know, like cows. +Love him. +O K. +You will speak to me. +Eh? +You will speak to, I'm very relaxed. +I wouldn't like to go for a week in silence. +You know, I can't stay for a week in silence. +I didn't think you could. +Oh! +Where'd you come from? +Oh dear, I thought you were a , there, oh there. +What's like? +He doesn't know his middle name, does he?her name. +It's nearly ready. +.Five minutes, oh we're late aren't we? +Never mind. +I spoke to today. +Oh, right. +How is he? +Well, that's the name of the company isn't it? +He's busy. +Oh, that's what he wants to be isn't it? +Bad news. +It's bad news being busy? +Why? +He, who? +His wife's laid up in bed +Why, what's wrong? +with back pain. +She's not allowed to move +Oh dear. +at all. +Well she works with him, doesn't she? +accounts department. +He's got to go and deal with the children, take them to and from work, then run a business. +Then he's got to go home at lunchtime and give her some food. +Aha. +Now that kind of busy is not the right sort of busy is it? +Not pleasant. +Are you hungry Charlotte? +Are you? +No. +No? +You don't want anything to eat? +Oh right. +I'll eat your dinner. +We'll eat your dinner for you. +I'll go and eat your dinner. +She's going to go and eat your dinner. +You have . +What have you been doing? +Have you been buying naughty things again Joelle? +Naughty girl. +eaten my dinner? +I haven't eaten your dinner, it's not ready yet. +.Nearly ready. +Oh, you're doing it in English are you? +I hate this in English. +This, this video. +Oh it's the voices I can't stand. +Bonk. +Did it go bonk? +Listen, go away She doesn't say go away very much now. +Go away. +Does she? +Well she's just heard it, that's why, but she doesn't she doesn't say it very much does she? +No? +I've only heard it once or twice in the last few +When I change her nappy? +Well, that's normal. +She doesn't want you to change her nappy does she? +Water please. +Right, let's go and see if these chicken things are ready. +Right, right, would you like to sort of start getting yourselves into the other room. +Now the baby's waking up, dinner's ready. +Is baby waking up? +She keeps kicking her legs and going, ah, ah. +Is the ready ? +No, it's not. +I said try and start thinking about getting in there because +How soon? +About two minutes. +Shall we start ? +After dinner, yeah. +Yeah. +Brian and Pauline probably won't arrive till it's virtually over. +Probably not. +Do you think Charlotte will eat a turkey steak with garlic and herbs? +What? +I said do you think Charlotte will eat a turkey steak with garlic and herbs? +We'll see, won't we. +You hungry? +Miss? +What's happening,water please, water, water. +Ah, that's that done. +Oh, it smells good. +They do don't they? +I thought we'd try them for a change. +They look really nice. +Like chicken Kiev without a load of sloppy butter. +Bit smaller than normal ones. +There's a lot of banging and crashing on this tape. +What else do I need? +A plate for Charlotte. +Brian said, we'll make it tomorrow night, eight to eight thirty. +So, cos he had an early, erm, what do you call it, early estimate. +Oh Charlotte, look what . +Don't be naughty. +Can you sort erm, madame out? +Off you go Jess, go and be fed. +Is that nice? +Is that a nice cake? +Mm. +Mm. +Pardon? +Oh you're colouring Postman Pat. +You've got a black crayon again. +It's Charlotte choosing. +Pardon? +It's Charlotte choosing. +Chose what? +The cake! +Oh, right. +Did you know what you were choosing? +Did you walk around Tesco's? +Did you walk, or did you sit in your pushchair? +Tell the truth. +Did you walk, or did you walk in your pushchair? +Sit in the pushchair. +You went in a car didn't you? +Have you told Daddy what you did? +Erm? +Go on, you tell Daddy what you did in front of erm +We went, we went to Tesco +Mhm +and after Tesco, just next to the door there's some little car +Oh yeah. +for you to go +Yeah, one of these things you sit in, put twenty P in or whatever it is, and have a ride for two minutes. +So she said, mm. +So I said, you can go in there when we are, when we done the shopping. +So I said, if you are a good girl you can choose a cake. +So went to Tesco, and we walk around, the cake, erm, cake thing +Aisle? +and er, I said +Oh Charlotte, don't talk with your mouth full. +We went to Tesco to buy some milk. +To buy some milk? +Because Sainsbury didn't have any yesterday. +Did they have any today? +I don't know, I didn't go today . +What did I do today? +I made beans, when I'd finished sorting out this one I . +Charlotte don't play with that lovey. +That's a good girl. +Then I went to the bank. +Then I went to Tesco. +That take me nearly all the er +All morning. +And erm +Then this afternoon we went to Croydon. +Exciting. +I went to Tesco. +You went to Tesco? +We are very tired. +We are. +Absolutely. +Who's we? +Me. +We. +All of us? +You're not tired. +Why not? +You shouldn't be tired. +I'm happy. +Oh I'm so glad you're happy. +She's a poor old lady at the moment. +Is she? +Poor old lady. +Charlotte please don't talk with your mouth full, there's a good girl. +Keep your mouth closed when you've got something in it or we'll take something away. +It's not, it's not very nice darling, to do that. +It's not good manners. +We want to bring up a nice girl, not a little pig. +Alright? +pig. +No, nice girl, not a little pig. +pig. +Yes, nice girl. +Are you a nice girl? +What? +Not the way you stuff your cake in your mouth like that. +Dear oh dear. +I wouldn't bounce at the same time +Don't bounce when you're eating please. +And shut your mouth. +Good girl. +trampoline now. +You're going on the trampoline. +Well finish your mouthful first, please. +Or +Ah that wasn't her fault. +Have you finished? +Have you finished eating? +No. +No? +No +calls for you. +Swansea. +Right hand side. +Oh right. +I couldn't work out what you were talking about. +It only takes one at a time. +No it's not now. +It's bath time really. +Be bath time in about fifteen minutes. +I thought you'd finished your cake, haven't you finished? +Catch it, one two three catch it, one two three. +I said catch it, you didn't catch it,. +What? +It's Top Of The Pops. +Top Of The Pops, oh +I haven't watched Top of the Pops. +will sit there cringing, said I can't believe they put this rubbish on terrible. +Who was on it? +Don't know who was on it actually. +Well she doesn't like M C Hammer, he was on, and then there was one week with Germans on it and it was, erm, it's a German group that used to be popular and haven't done a song for ages. +It wasn't the Robots was it? +Yeah, the Robots. +I mean, it was just the words they were using, I mean oh It makes you cringe, oh and then that er girl oh she's done quite a few things recently. +She sings much better than she talks. +back to my diet today. +Thank you very much, yes I will actually. +No, it's not my day to diet, been, been naughty today. +Oh dear. +Pop him on the shoulder. +. So did you enjoy Paul Simon? +Yeah. +She was about to but she found a sticker on book +She comes out well on tape doesn't she? +Who Charlotte? +Mm. +I didn't realise how clear her speech was until I heard it on the tape. +It's really quite good actually. +Not bad. +Oh we'll do this one again. +drop off +Cos it's lights and things isn't it? +She was looking at er lights in Sainsbury's the other day. +It looked like that, didn't it? +Carol was swaying at her. +You missed that. +I just swayed at her, and she +It's Conway Twitty isn't it? +Is it? +Oh no. +How far back does this go, I suppose early fifties? +Er nineteen fifty six. +I remember Conway Twitty. +Oh yes. +You were in your cradle. +Elvis, didn't he? +I don't think he ever recorded it, I think he just used to sing it at his, er sort of cabaret. +Well so many of these songs have been done by so many people that you would be forgiven for thinking that, that. +Because there's one there, one on one of these that er either Paul Simon or Art Garfunkel or someone, can't remember which one, probably Art Garfunkel as Paul Simon does all his own doesn't he? +Well he has done other people's. +Well there's one on there, I can't remember +Like for instance the, er, what do they call those two? +Oh the two brothers. +In the +Everley Brothers? +The Everley Brothers, that's it. +You know, Wake up Little Suzie? +Oh yeah. +Well Simon and Garfunkel did that +Wicked far out. +it's a groovy record this. +Shut up. +Can't remember which one it is but I'll recognise it when I hear it. +He's doing very well, isn't he. +He is. +Have to employ him full time. +He's always quite good. +I just can't believe how daft he is. +I suppose you like that film. +Yes. +Forget it. +You're not having cake. +Does she like cake? +Well she's looking at it. +So how's things down at the ? +Not too bad. +Quite good actually. +Yeah? +Keeping him busy out on estimates and +Yeah he's out all this week. +Well, my dad won't pass them on to Terry. +Me dad said he's had enough Well, we were debating whether to give it to you or not. +But I thought, well if Terry notices he might . +Well in fact two really big estimates +Who, Terry? +Yeah. +And one wanted re-estimating, the other one wanted a few more prices cos everything like marble tops which are going to cost a fortune to get done. +We give them a provisional kind of price and not really gone into it in detail. +So she had a list of about five things she wanted sorted out and she said so far we were the cheapest. +But she's got about six different firms on the computer and was comparing notes. +So I worked out and the other two were really fitting and electrics and it was all down to Terry to sort those out. +And they're both, about two to three thousand pounds worth of sanitary ware or more but two to three thousand pounds worth of work. +Well you can't afford to lose them, can you? +No. +So what's going to happen then? +God knows. +He said, I asked, asked, well I left a message on Saturday for him to sort them out didn't I? +He already knew about that. +And then I asked my father on Tuesday to remind him and he said, he'd already said he'd fetch them in on Tuesday. +And he, my father reminded him last night and he said yeah he would have them by tomorrow morning. +But he's , he just really has to get in touch with one of them and tell them the prices. +So I don't know. +Well, I mean he'd done, he's done this first estimate, these are all just polishing touches cos people are obviously interested in, you know they're well keen on our prices. +they can't pursue it till we come back to them. +They're not pursuing it until we put these things out. +My father just turned round I've had enough of it if Terry's not going to do the estimate he passes them on to Brian. +I said yeah then I get into trouble with them for not passing estimates to Terry and then there's an argument. +If he, if he says anything to me I'll just have to tell him. +But he's not doing the estimates he's been given and he can't afford to throw money away. +It's cos he's working for him at the moment money. +He always gets like that and then he forgets after like a month or two when he hasn't worked for him. +He forgets how annoying he can be and you know he swings the other way. +I mean Brian's pulled in a lot of work. +lot of people kind of saying come back again on Thursday So he's, he's . +If we got Terry to do that we'd be well away. +They, they would love him I mean one of them it was annoying really cos Terry's just not pulling his weight. +I don't understand it, if I live to be a hundred I won't understand it. +And also, it's cos that, you know after we had that row about Terry, after Bank Holiday expecting not to have to do a day in the shop, and er he's already owing Brian a day? +Guess who's doing the extra day?got my dad to cover a day. +And then he takes a day off Bank Holidays. +and he can't do it because my dad . +But then tomorrow he's actually doing his own work. +So he could easily have . +And on Monday +So who's covering tomorrow? +Well my brother's covered practically all week and Brian's doing tomorrow. +Terry phoned up asking what, Tuesday morning about quarter past eight said who was covering. +And he said well my father is doing today I can't do today I'll do it Friday and I shouted down the stairs but he owes you a day you shouldn't be going in. +I mean he hasn't been in the shop once this week. +Somebody's got to tell him to +So do Dave and Terry in the shop . +They have the records. +And it hasn't been sorted yet? +Oh no. +He's got the gall to phone up on Tuesday and say Eileen can't do a day, we're going to be short of Eileen. +So the answer is to just phone them. +I can't do it. +I'm not doing it. +What's the point of carrying on like that? +Well he's going to carry on like that isn't he? +Not unless someone puts their foot down. +And if your father is currently taking your side of things worth sounding him out as to how far he'll take +Ah +whilst he's in the mood? +Yeah. +He's not being that much +You sure? +Mmm. +He's probably only in the mood cos he's probably upsetting them on his night out cos they go out in the evenings. +On a Wednesday evening, don't they. +Cos Terry +I mean , wouldn't he rather have Terry as a sort of permanent worker anyway? +It's not being fair +do any work. +Oh what, your dad? +Pauline's dad er +too expensive I think. +Terry uses the shop to get extra money every so often, uses my dad ticking over running when he +Why . +He does get the offer, I mean +two months and she phoned up and I kind of made out it got lost in the post. +I erm got, check you've got two days, you've got give me the estimate, it's got to be on because she's expecting it to be done straight away on the computer and sent. +And he actually got that one done. +Do you know it was only five lines. +I mean I could have made it up it was that easy. +So I sent that off. +She was in first thing, I mean I sent it off that evening she was in first thing the next morning yes that's fine . +So he's got that job and another one . +She's trying isn't she? +I don't understand why it surprises you, that's what gets me. +I mean +It's normal behaviour . +Charlotte's done it too. +Can you pass me that er, sheet? +This? +Is that your reading? +That's not your regulations you have to read is it? +Oh no, that's a +I was going to say that doesn't seem very thick +No, that's to do with this tape. +Oh I tell you what is quite funny these, the act. +Mmm. +Oh. +hereby enacted her gracious majesty, you know, etcetera etcetera. +What was it, the Lords temporal and spiritual, that's what they call themselves. +Now that is, that's +Yes. +Yeah I realise and I hope I don't come into contact with too many acts of parliament. +Oh, we had someone round to see the house yesterday. +Oh yeah? +They came twenty minutes early, there's Brian up in the shower, there's me stuffing things in the cupboard under the stairs. +That's an old trick. +I said to Danny, don't open the door. +Don't open the door! +So as I'm still trying to stuff things away, she opened the door and everything fell out. +look round the front room, then they looked round the, the garden. +While they were looking round the garden I you've got to get out the shower quick. +I don't know. +They'd come down from, they'd come down from,erm, somewhere or other. +They're just doing a kind of tour of loads and loads of houses cos they keep moving with his job. +Oh, right. +She quite, I think she liked the area, she was saying about the schools and that. +Mind you, she likes erm and they're all separate, all the best ones round here are . +She said don't they have any details? +So I said well, no it's not now is it, it's erm, oh it's that school that the . +Something and School of Arts now it's called well technical +School of Arts round here? +No it's another, well technical, +performing arts here. +performing arts and that's the technical +It's a monstrosity. +Oh you rotten old pig, you've been sick. +Oh she hasn't? +Oh. +Yeah, it's alright. +is it washable? +Yeah, I think so. +You'll soon find out. +Yes. +Do you feel better now? +Obviously. +I think she thinks she's got some milk now. +I thought you said, one, you had to have somebody involved who is?. +No no no one person that's not right. +Oh, right . +There is no, statutory obligation for the person organizing it +Oh, I know. +Well not the organizer surely oh I know I would have thought you'd have to,shoot it +I'm sure that the social services require psychiatric or +Mm, I would of thought so +obviously medical what you're doing. +Mhm but they're to be qualified people involved. +But I would have expected that the whole thing would have to be operated by, somebody who was qualified. +I don't know, because like, you know like the doctors +I think it sort of depends how big that you want to get involved in. +If you're just somebody who's on the outside providing services, to keep the smooth running of it then you don't really have to know anything about it. +Mm. +But if you're actually involved in it, and you want to be involved in the people, then I think you have to know something about it. +Well the other evening they were showing something on T V, one of these doctors', doctors' practices that are opting out or whatever. +And they got a stockbroker, someone who used to be a stockbroker, actually managing the whole practice. +Yeah. +I mean he's obviously not qualified as a doctor. +Mhm. +So I mean I suppose they'll look at it in the same kind of way, somebody who's got managerial, management qualities rather than I suppose people who are interested in the other side of it, the medical side of it, probably, really be geared up to organizing the money side of it wouldn't they, usually one or the other. +So have you done any more calculations on it? +There's nothing really more I mean the whole thing is a budget guesstimate. +I've no idea yet, really what, I mean, you know, for instance I don't know how much ratio staff to patients they need, therefore you can't really, you know, follow that up because you've no idea what the costs themselves could be. +Well you don't know, have you, have you found the statutory requirement for space yet? +Per person. +I think the thing is going to come unstuck in the, I think the biggest thing is, I was thinking, is the fact that you've got to get I wouldn't get a commitment from Social Services until they see a property actually ready for occupation. +Now I'm not gonna be prepared to go through the whole business and then find them say oh sorry you're wrong. +Property is the biggest bugbear. +Yeah. +Because I don't think +If you're actually sitting on +I don't think the banks are gonna want to invest. +To be perfectly frank. +You see the only way we can get equity out and put money in ourselves is by selling this place. +Yes. +Therefore if we don't actually want to live in the same place as the residents, which I certainly wouldn't want to do, right. +We'd have to buy two adjoining. +Yeah. +So that either means providing it, or something further down the scale . +I mean that's, huge. +That to be honest is, is somebody who's like, been doing this for ten years and has already got themselves like half a million pounds of worth of equity. +You know it's a huge property. +But you would need a large property to do what you want? +I don't think so. +It would be eleven bedrooms and five receptions . +The point is, that you've got to count, if , you've got to count one bedroom +Yes, I've got +you count one bedroom for all the . +You may even have to count two. +You certainly got to count one. +So two bedrooms out of twelve are no longer available. +Sorry? +Say that again in English. +They're coming to collect the stuff next Thursday. +But I don't have to do it every day all day. +It's twenty tapes. +So that's twenty times ninety minutes. +talking about his estimates. +Very exciting stuff and I've been telling her not to speak so loudly. +Have you had enough now? +and then I'm talking about right? +It's gonna cost five and a half thousand mortgage. +At this point would cost about just, just about half. +Six bedrooms would pro , six bedrooms would probably cost you two to buy. +five and six bedroom houses and you won't get anything under two hundred thousand pounds. +How much do you wanna to bet on that? +Mm? +Where? +I've been waiting for on one. +Where? +You've got to spend as much or twice as much there as you would there as you would anywhere else. +Those other properties, there isn't half the amount of work need doing there as . +needs a lot of work. +If we moved in then we'd have to spend fifty thousand pound to get it up to scratch. +That's just to live in. +Alright, O K, let's say two hundred grand, O K? +It's still fifty per cent less than one of those properties at Harrow Road, right? +Fifty per cent less on the mortgage means erm about three and a half thousand . +It's effectively eighteen thousand per annum saved, right? +The cost of and gain four bedrooms +the cheaper it should become. +Oh yes it is, I don't doubt it but the problem is right? +And you've got to be realistic. +Because no bank is going to give you the money against the costs of the value of the property right? +They're gonna give you the against equity equity of some sort. +But the only way you can get the equity, right? +The only way we could get the equity. +We could do it. +The only thing I could do I mean at the same time I'm saying O K I'll go in to do it this way, would be to actually say, sod this for a lark, instead of doing erm totally private thing, gonna set up a private limited company to issue cheques. +I really couldn't I would never get the price I'd want for the alphabet. +Shall we go for a stroll? +No . +Fetch the +No, no, no, no, no. +What do you mean, no? +You've got to take the with you. +Why? +Why are you . +Why are you going for a walk? +To go and see What have you bought? +Oh you're not starting again, are you? +Yeah, you're not to smoke any more. +I haven't got any. +You are not to smoke +You're looking so guilty. +The pair of them. +Really. +Excuse me, excuse me ladies. +Since when do you ask Brian if he wants to go for a walk? +This is nothing to do +Empty your pockets. +Come on. +This is going down on the table. +Come on, you're not going to have them in there, are you? +I'm not daft. +Alright? +I wasn't born yesterday. +You might forget them one day and they'll get washed. +That is not for me to contribute to. +I haven't said anything about it. +Amy . +Let go of my neck. +She's a major contributor to these tapes, aren't you? +Shall we take her for a walk? +You really must think we're daft. +He's sleeping down here tonight. +It's bad enough being woken up by the baby without going back to bed and then being woken up by . +I've been going to bed at half past one and I was doing the T M A for two nights, then I've been doing his V A T for two nights so I've got to bed really really late and I just and, the thing is, the T M A were all on about my then I just start to relax I had to resort to herbal knockout drops. +Oh that's very naughty. +Right. +Definitely smoking . +Well, we were sitting there doing the V A T and I thought, I don't know that's just not but +How much is it when you want to go cinema? +Oh,about two seventy five I think but I'm not sure +Is it as little as that? +it might be more but . +Well I'd either do it that way or pay, erm, credit cards. +I don't really take any notice. +Terrible +Naughty, isn't it? +I don't think it's terrible +White Fang. +Oh what on earth's that? +It's the latest Disney extravaganza, and a wolf cub in it, oh Kirsty loves . +Oh isn't it? +No, it says here, the story of a young wolf. +Oh, she'll probably like that +tomorrow we'll go somewhere and spend my money. +Yes I suppose by the time she's here look different. +Gonna have your hair done?a perm. +She hasn't got enough to have a perm, has she now? +I think she's gonna grow it out. +She's gonna, perm the top so she can grow it out. +I told you, didn't I say, as soon as she gets it cut she'll be growing it out. +Where are you going to get it done? +Er in +they normally cut it well. +Bit expensive though. +Twenty one pounds forty five. +Just to have it cut and blow dried? +Regardless of whether it's a restyle or trim. +Bit expensive. +That is. +Mind you, my hair was a lot better when I was having it done . +I must admit though it looked lovely, I'll say that. +I only had a trim, but the blow dry made it sort of Do you remember when I got that, my hair cut really short? +They did that, and that was, that was really nice. +When I look back at the photographs I think And even when it was long I had, there was one hairdresser there called Paul, whom I'd go and see regularly . +I'd go and see him regularly because he did it really well, once he left +Well I had one like that, you know when we used to go to that gym up in Chelsea? +Mind you my regular's back and she charges three pounds. +six weeks. +I haven't been since, what isn't it? +Trouble is now, cos I know a hairdresser the shop, if I go somewhere else, it looks a bit you know and yet I'm not very satisfied with the way he cuts it, he's done it cheap. +Mind you, he did Mandy's at Mandy's, I thought that was quite nice. +Have you got a hiccup? +Caught it off Amy. +She's gone to sleep now? +They are aren't they? +But he phoned up to order it and said oh my wife likes these soppy things, he bought it, I didn't. +It had nothing to do with me. +Then he wants me to tape it so he can have it in the car cos it's on C D. +Hold your breath. +drink some water, concentrate +Well, if you want to get rid of hiccups, drink +Hold your breath and push seems to work on me. +stand on your head. +Run round the block or something. +Why can I, er I can't have hiccup? +Because you don't like them. +You keep complaining every time you get hiccups, you say oh I don't like them. +I'm trying to help get rid of them, sorry. +Supposed to work isn't it? +Once she's gone, once she's gone she's gone. +Oh dear, oh we've come to the end. +Oy, psst, you are a little fidget. +Where is Adam and Brian? +Mm? +Where is Adam and Brian? +They're not having a cigar, they're walking round the block. +They're not having a cigar. +So they keep telling me. +They've gone out for a walk to have a cigar but as far we're concerned they're not having a cigar. +They think we're stupid and we don't realize +Well, I'm not supposed to tell you but he was smoking on the station when we just caught sight of him. +Well I'm sure he was. +I said how am I not supposed to say anything, I said I don't approve why should I keep this quiet? +Cos it's not good for you. +It's not on. +Brian is, because we've been out a couple of times and he does, I mean if we go out he'll smoke then and then he just normally stops. +Yes, he had one to celebrate, but he didn't just buy one he bought a box. +So of course he had to keep smoking them until he'd finished +Until they'd gone, yes. +And he told me, well quite soon quite soon after she came along. +I think he actually went for a walk with Brian. +Oh, I assume he brought +No, no, this was the last one. +I said, you had the last one two days ago. +So the last one of packet number I don't know what. +Well Brian can stop terrible now, he's really snoring, god . +I've got to the point now, I kick him and tell him to turn over, he turns it over and it's just as bad as before. +Yeah, yeah. +I don't want to be married. +No, don't bother +Well at least have separate rooms. +I wouldn't mind, but it's normally me that goes and sleeps on the settee and I don't see why I should. +Well, no the other day he said if I'm really that bad you just tell me and I'll go down and sleep on the sofa. +And I went berserk about two nights later and said for god's sake you're driving me bonkers, go away and sleep on the sofa. +He's turned over and started snoring. +Well he can be lying there sometimes and I'll say, will you roll over please. +Mm. +Go on then. +Mm. +Will you please roll over! +Or some of the time I've been sitting there in the bed feeding the baby, you know +Mm. +and go shut up! +Shut up! +It's awful. +Well, I've found now I do a combination of what's that stuff, erm,orbathol that seems to help a bit. +I don't think it helps him, it helps me calm down and go to sleep. +Knock out drops. +put that all over, I keep forgetting to take those herbal tablets, they seem to help with colds or whatever but I haven't got those upstairs at the moment which doesn't help. +And then last night I just took my stuff and knocked myself out instead. +I don't see why I should have to knock myself out +have to be a man unfortunately. +Trouble is I go into such a deep sleep I can't wake up in the morning if I do, you know, take the herbal stuff, I , I'm flat out in the morning, can't wake up. +I think I got up about half past eight this morning. +Goodness me. +I had to go to work about nine. +Oh what are you doing? +Oh shut up. +Go away. +And he gets hiccups. +He eats too much too quickly. +He gets really violent hiccups though, you know, really th , they sound very, very painful. +My baby's ones do. +Mm. +You know when it, you can just hear everything going ckkk ooh. +Is she awake? +No. +I'll have to put you down some time. +I felt so sorry for Christine. +Do you know she's now, she was quite cuddly, she was fat in the pregnancy when I saw her last time. +And in the space of three weeks I think the baby's used up all her fat because she's now just really, really pregnant. +But, not so much her face, but all the top part of her looks slim, almost, you know I mean, she's got no fat left there, on her arms it's all gone. +Just a bit left on her legs so the baby must have used up all if the baby carries on like this she'll be anaemic I think. +When's she due? +Did you say? +Eleventh, so she's got another, almost two, well two weeks, ten days. +Mm. +She said she can't sit down, can't stand up. +I was just sitting there for about five minutes then she got up, then she, ooh, sat down, then she got up. +I don't think it can be too long. +Now what about that then? +I can't believe how quickly the time's gone. +Mm. +Do you want to sit down ? +broke today. +Ooh broke? +I mean I was, one minute I was walking round, I hadn't touched anything another minute it was catching my finger. +I looked down to see what was kind of stinging my finger and the ring had snapped and was pinching where it caught my finger. +I can't get mine off. +Well I can't wear a wedding ring now, it, just cos it's so wide, it's a really wide one. +And if I wear where I had the eternity ring on and the engagement ring and the wedding ring +it just felt like arthritis, it used to get really painful. +So I said oh blow this that's coming off. +I suppose I'll have to get another wedding ring. +It's fashionable to have a kind of reason +I don't think so. +So I'm feeling less and less married the more rings I keep breaking. +I can't get my wedding ring off. +No. +Well, my fingers get swelling as well, so I thought it wouldn't do any harm. +Well I have finished +Well they're all up there. +O K. +Well I could not ask you before. +Well, yeah, if you look, ooh, I can't think where. +I think there's a book-rack up there and I think some of them, the patterns are out of the magazine and they're just, in a rack, I think. +If you go up there just leave them as they are don't leave them all over the place. +put them back. +Are you making something? +Depends how much time I've got. +Yeah. +What are you going to make? +Some +Yeah? +What the ski , lycra type one? +Little? +Lycra. +Oh that one, no. +fabric . +Do you want the fitted or loose? +You want like, like that, floaty? +Like, like these, or, more like jogging pants? +No, like these. +Well if you want them to stay pretty as opposed to going baggy then you'll need to have a bit of lycra in the fabric. +Keeps the shape better. +Mandy loves her top. +Oh, the body? +The body? +Yeah, she was wearing it flat out when she was +So you didn't get a look in then? +Oh no, I was wrestling it off to wash it in the end. +She kind of wore it with everything she could think of I think that would go. +Mind you, I don't think it's come out of the washing at the moment, I think it's getting water . +I haven't seen it recently. +Quite versatile really. +Yeah, yes she wore it with a lot of you know trousers and skirts and The big thing at the moment is a new polo neck that we got from . +It's actually ever such a good one. +An X Together one, you know Together the label ? +So +Yeah. +But you also buy it in, er, Alders, they've got them. +. So it's normally quite expensive and it's, it's lovely material and it comes down to about here. +We got it for four pound fifty. +Ever so cheap. +That's +Oh, right, yes I've seen it, I've seen it. +Well ever so often what they do they get the ex catalogue stuff. +You know you can get some quite good buys like end of the season. +Who are they? +You get the end of season and it's if you look at the labels and go for the decent labels then you don't get sort of, quite reasonable quality. +Mm. +I got quite a few things in there. +I'll probably have a stroll round there just to get a tracksuit for, when Michael was +childrens' tracksuit. +I used to, I bought loads and loads in there. +Joelle? +Could you just take the carrycot up and put it on the floor? +Just so that it's upstairs, for me. +On the floor?bedroom floor? +Well I haven't cleared the cot out, so +O K. +it's funny cos I just I thought ooh, I'll buy it for her cos you know she doesn't +four pound fifty I didn't mind. +. But it actually really suits her, it's a kind of sl almost maroony red, burgundy type red, not quite and er it's a really good colour. +Christine got a load of her pregnancy stuff there. +Cos she said I'm not paying a fortune for stuff that I won't wear afterwards. +So she bought +Is there maternity clothes then? +Well, if you look, yeah. +Well she got a kind of raincoat, that, I don't think it's supposed to be maternity I think it's just supposed to be +Oh yes, cos that was the fashion wasn't it? +Yeah, yeah. +So she's, she's got one there. +I think she paid eight pound for it, and it, it looks raincoat . +And it still fits, it still fits over the hump. +But she's huge. +I really got away with it, you know. +I, didn't have a coat right the way through. +Mm. +when it rains, that's all. +Really lucky. +she hasn't got a car, or anything. +She's +Oh, dear. +So she has to walk round well, Chris sold his car didn't he cos they want to save up and get a house. +Even through the snow I survived. +Very lucky. +Cos I refused to go out and buy a coat. +I used to wear one +I had a jumper that my mum knitted that went wrong and ended up twice the size it should have been. +But that came in useful. +Yeah. +Well, when Mandy was when I was pregnant with Mandy I used to wear this old, you know those rabbit skin coats coney coat what they're called? +Fur coat thing. +Mm. +Well it was a kind of fur coat but it was rabbit I think, it was. +I got one, ooh, well it was really fashionable then so it was quite beautiful sixteen years ago. +I'd probably know what you mean if I saw it. +It's just a little jacket kind of thing. +So when I was pregnant that would be, that was fine cos it just +Sat on top? +Yeah, sat on top really. +And er with Michael I'd gone out in Richard's and bought mys , ever such a full raincoat when it was in fashion. +I still had it in the wardrobe so I just used to . +But I still had more room than I needed in that so that was quite useful. +Actually Christine normal size twelve dress that happened to be a full dress. +Oh, a baggy one. +And she's, she's quite it's a kind of cottony, stretchy, you know those ones that you have a V and then they're quite full, like this is full from there? +Oh, I know, yeah. +This is like a V. +Well the V's just kind of gone up. +It actually looked quite nice on her. +She didn't look too bad considering. +I hardly wore any dresses. +Well she's got, she said she just wears the three, I don't think she likes like the trousers. +Oh it's boring, isn't it, being pregnant? +Because you don't want to go and buy as many clothes as you would have in your wardrobe normally. +The killer is when you've got to go out to a special occasion isn't it? +Yes. +And you know you've got to +Yeah. +I bought this really expensive one, you know I was can't remember a wedding or something so I had to buy something. +Finished your discussion? +You enjoyed your non-smoking did you? +Sorry? +You enjoyed your non-smoking did you? +Is it cold out? +No mild. +. It's a bit, nippy round the gills. +Mm. +Mm +Well I'm going fishing on Saturday. +Do you wanna dozen, a trout, if you, if I +Oh yes please. +have any success? +Yes. +Yes I enjoyed that trout last time. +He doesn't even like it. +He doesn't like trout? +Well he does, but he won't eat it. +Why won't you eat it? +I suggest having trout for dinner, no. +Don't fancy it. +I like er +we've actually had trout in the freezer for ages, and not used them fresh the day I got them I'll use it and +I'm keen on trout if it's got a sauce. +Mm. +But to be honest I shouldn't be eating that sort of thing anyway, so +I like it best with almonds, flaked almonds on the top. +Mm. +And that's not on my diet either. +Actually onions and mushrooms in garlic butter +How've you been doing? +Oh alright, yeah. +Last, I broke it last night didn't have enough time cos I was, if I'm doing his books all afternoon. +Mm. +And I didn't have time to cook so he went out, cos I broke it last night , well I was alright up to lunchtime. +It's dinner time again. +I shall start again tomorrow. +Other than that I don't usually break it. +How much have you lost? +I haven't really lost, in weight I haven't lost any more but it's coming, my body's +It's shaping you up? +Yeah, yes. +Cos, kind of, all my clothes +You look a bit thinner in the face and neck. +Yeah. +I think it's maybe it's turned to muscle, I don't know. +Redistributing +Yeah, yeah. +I don't know how to describe it. +Cos I'm not actually losing weight, but my clothes all feel, you know I can get into clothes I haven't worn for ages. +Mm. +Well Suzy's going to Weightwatchers again. +Is she? +She doesn't look like she needs to really. +She's put on a little bit of weight. +She has put on a bit, but +I tell you what Suzy, Suzy's problem is her rump and her her +Yeah her legs. +and her thighs. +That's where she +Because if you look at the top of her, you you wouldn't think +No, you wouldn't think she was overweight. +Take a picture of her head and shoulders. +Mm. +You'd think she was skinny. +Mm. +Well, she went right down to a size ten when she lost all that weight before. +What is she now? +Fourteen. +Blimey. +Mm. +So she has got a problem then. +It's all round the bottom. +Mind you, cycling should help that. +She's out cycling here and getting the train in the morning. +Keeps her bike in the garage and pops on the train. +So you don't need a lot of +in the garage. +No that's right. +jacket. +Mind you, isn't there some restrictions on what you can do with fridges? +I think you can ask the council to take it away or something or take it to the dump +you can take it down the tip, +They recycle CFC's don't they? +That's right, yeah. +Really goes against the grain to see . +Mm. +Well we don't really need another one. +We've got a fridge in the at work, there's one in the kitchen +Can't you find +Can't you find what? +or something? +Well it's difficult, isn't it really? +Because it's, it's er under, under worktop +Well, if, if they enquire they're only enquiring . +That's true. +Just ask for a fiver. +Cos if you say nothing they probably think there's something wrong +not working so they don't want to take it. +have to get somebody to take it away. +Well I think it's going to be a case of phone the council and ask them to +Do they take them? +I don't think I'll get it in the car anyway. +Who's asleep proper now? +now isn't she? +Pardon? +She gone? +I'm not sure. +Well how much does it cost to get in the cinema ? +About four quid isn't it. +Is it? +I'll have to buy the tickets occasionally. +I think it's about three, three seventy five. +Something like that. +Oh, cos Joelle was trying to, trying to work out if she can afford to have her hair done and go to the cinema. +What does she wanna go and see? +White Fang. +White what? +It's the latest Walt Disney. +It's a story about a wolf. +Oh that one. +Fantasia. +What'd you say? +We want to go and see that +Fantasia's coming out +It's a last, last ditch attempt to get some money out of it, is it? +And what was the other one? +I was told, wasn't I? +Fantasia and +It wasn't one we wanted +Hundred and One Dalmatians? +No, no, we would have wanted that. +Oh yeah that's it. +Yes it was, yeah +latest one, it made a massive, massive loss apparently. +I shouldn't bother about it . +It's so boring. +I'd like Fantasia. +I'd probably be sad and disappointed. +My memory of it would probably be . +Yeah, of course you saw it as a kid, didn't you? +fifteen I think. +Fifteen, sixteen. +Oh no I saw it when I was about eight. +And I saw it before that, about, yeah about eight as well. +But I still enjoyed it the second time. +Well I don't think actually, I mean I can remember and I don't quite understand what's going on here, keeps swapping and changing and I don't understand it. +I remember I didn't like the orchestra bit. +weird psychedelic bits. +That's right, yeah. +The Nutcracker Suite's my favourite. +Hippos and things doing ballet dances. +asleep. +No, she's not asleep. +I thought you said she was asleep. +She was. +She's just woken up. +Well. +What do you want to do? +Shall I put you in your chair? +Shall I? +Oh you do make funny faces little girl. +Do you remember provisional driving licence? +Now how long has she left that sitting there? +Ages isn't it I thought I'd tidy up in his desk and I was just going through the mound of papers, and I said here you are here's your licence, finish it off, fill it in, and I'll give you the cheque. +Oh right, I'll and then she's moaning at him cos she wants to go and post it and you were mucking about with your C D thing or something and you were saying wait for me I'll do this then I'll miss the post. +It's been sitting there for about three months. +On the desk and she hasn't bothered probably with the cheque. +How are you going to afford a driving licence? +Totally ignored me. +Oh, of course,expecting us to pay. +Oh, that's a nice choccy. +She sounded really cheesed off about I said how's your revision going, cos I knew she was doing revision, she went cccckkk I try a maths paper and I can't do that, and I a chemistry paper and I can't do that and I really . +I said I think you need a break. +I think you need to go and do something else for a little while I said cos if you keep looking over thinking you can't do it, have a break and go back to it afterwards you just get really despondent +Yeah. +and fed up and think you can't do it and you go blank and then you can't touch anything you and you know it's hard. +Mm. +Yeah. +You know, you can see it ticking over . +What am I doing. +She was fine tonight, wasn't she? +What was she doing? +I dunno, I think she just, probably gone down and played some records or something . +She's got to do some trigs and she just doesn't fancy trying, doesn't understand enough of it to do it. +And the science paper she's only got the the kind of practice one, it's a very basic one. +She's got no practice ones for the two, the other two she's got to do which are obviously going to be harder and she's got no idea, not, well she's got the guidelines but no real paper to sit and look at. +Mm. +This is for GCSEs isn't it? +Yeah. +Mm. +Well you'd think they'd let her, you know have some old paper +Does she have or not? +Yes, she erm +There aren't any old papers yet though are there? +Well yeah this is done in Croydon last year and the year before so yeah there would be a couple +Oh right. +cos this was Croydon I'm pretty sure it yeah because otherwise she couldn't have the basic from last year would she? +She's got last year's basic. +Yes she's done er, both, three? +four +Well on Tuesday she goes in and goes, she's got till Tuesday, one's about six and one's five. +Course Danielle's in the middle of it all now, isn't she? +We probably know quite a lot of people who are taking exams of one sort or another at the moment. +Gabby's going through A levels. +Mm. +She's decided she's gonna to become a milkwoman. +Bit easier, is it? +Yes. +Doesn't want to be a doctor any more. +She's wanted to be a doctor for six years now she's decided +One of Mandy's friends wants to be a doctor. +It's the one who's had cancer and she wants to kind of, go on and study and help the people with cancer. +Cos she doesn't want to be like depressing, she said er no she doesn't feel like that because she's already gone through the worst so she won't, yeah she wants to help people who've got it. +Which I thought was quite nice. +Mm. +Nice idea. +Mind you, that's what motivated my brother in M S +Mm. +cos he had a, he had it, had it as a kiddy. +Went through so many operations he felt he wanted to give something back to the Health Service. +Well I think that's the kind of idea this girl's got. +Cos, that's right we took, we took them all skating when Mandy was twelve . +Yeah when she was twelve. +And that's when, that week, well she already knew she had something wrong +Mm. +and about two weeks after that it was diagnosed that she had cancer of the ovary. +Yeah. +Cos she had all her bits removed, presumably did she? +Yeah I presume so. +She had quite a bit of work done. +She had chemotherapy. +She lost all her hair. +Has it all come back? +Oh yeah. +She's all fine now. +Is she fully full recovered? +Yeah, I think so, yeah. +From what I can gather. +Very lucky. +Mm. +Yeah because it was pushing everything. +You know it was taking up so much space. +Wouldn't think there was the room in there for, for women. +I was really worried at the time cos Mandy, Mandy was very worried, wasn't she? +Mhm. +It really seemed to hit her hard. +Actually her friends have gone through a lot. +I mean what with that girl and cancer, and then another good friend, her father died. +Then, it's quite a lot to happen, isn't it? +Really makes her think. +Or worry. +Mm. +Whose father died then? +Celestian's +Oh Christ. +He had, er, sickle cell, didn't he? +Oh that funny version of sickle cell, wasn't very nice. +Didn't know there was two versions of . +How's that, er, Phil getting on with bringing up her, her baby? +We haven't heard anything for +I think she's alright yes. +I don't think she does anything, well I don't really see her very much. +Well her best friend's +Well it must be, nearly two by now. +Yeah, she's walking and, she's slow at walking though. +Yeah, she looks alright. +says she's not very well, she's got a thyroid infection, infection in her throat it's affecting her stomach. +They took her down the hospital. +And, they diagnosed that, and said try and keep, you know, give her fluids, but it's going straight through. +And they've given her something low in glucose and that you know to kind of try and stabilize it a bit. +Mhm. +But she's not too good by the sounds of it. +Mind you I saw her two day's ago and she looked absolutely fit as a fiddle so I said I think it strikes quickly and +Mm. +You know she looks a lot more comfortable in there than Charlotte did. +Charlotte always looked sort of +Scrunched up. +She seems to like it +It's the longest she's stayed in it. +I wonder what's . +Enough enough, do you want to go buy some Polo? +Mm. +Alright stop it then keep that +Come on. +Just a minute love. +Put it on alright? +Yeah. +Off we go. +Right off we go then. +See you later +Yep, where are my keys? +Where did you put them, in the dining room? +Found one what? +Polo. +Polos just one Polo. +No just one packet. +I think we might be able to manage that. +Aha. +Off we go +Just a minute darling it's alright I can afford to buy you a packet of Polos. +Off we go again I go home. +Pet hold mummy's hand hold mummy's hand, there's a good girl off we go. +I give you money. +Bye. +Bye watch out. +Shut the door there we are. +Bit chilly, I run round. +A bit chilly is it? +Is it a bit chilly? +Never mind. +Yes that is a bit chilly. +What's a bit chilly? +That's a bit chilly, he's a man. +It's a man, is he a bit chilly, he doesn't look chilly he's got a coat on. +Pardon? +Look at me when you're talking to me I can't hear you. +a man. +It's a man there's lots of men. +Can I go on there? +Can you go on where? +Oh oh thank you. +Oh you want to walk on that, oh Charlotte come on then, you're pushing me into the road. +Go in the road. +I don't want to go in the road. +No. +No. +You do. +I don't. +I go on there see. +Mm. +Gonna fall. +Oh dear, I'm sorry. +Who's coming to see you today? +Can you remember? +Grandma. +Pardon? +A train. +Who's coming to see you? +Grandma's coming to see me. +Grandma's coming to see you, that's right and who else? +Pardon? +Grandma and +Granddad. +Granddad that's right. +Granddad. +Or it's Grandpa Granddad's in American isn't he? +Granddad's a long way away, he's on holiday. +Yeah, on holiday. +On holiday that's right, he sent you a letter didn't he? +He sent you a letter. +Hold me a little bit. +What love? +Hold my hand nicely sweetheart, there's a good girl we're coming up to a busy road in a minute and it's dangerous Walk nicely darling, there's a good girl walk nicely just stand still a minute sweetheart hold my hand Charlotte please hold my hand there's a good girl. +Little bit further. +Little bit further yes, it's not very far it's not very far +It's not very far. +to the shop is it? +not very far. +Not very far no. +Oh that's a hole, a hole. +A hole in the road yes there's lots of holes in this road. +Can I go on there? +Can you, oh alright then . +lot's of people dig up the pavement don't they? +Can I go on there? +Can you, yeah go on no you hold my hand please no running away, no running away there's too many cars alright. +No I'm not I'm not. +Not what? +We're not going in the car are we? +No we're not going in the car we're walking aren't we? +Oh Charlotte loo will you pick up your feet. +Pardon? +Oh nearly there. +Pardon? +Right we go across the road now nicely. +Cross the road. +Cross the road now you stand there stand still, give me your other hand good girl right now is it all clear +Now you can cross. +O K off we go off we go. +Off we go. +Off we go up the step there's a good girl. +Ooh ooh ooh. +Charlotte please, can you walk nicely? +Pardon? +It's here. +We're nearly there yes. +In here. +No we're not going here we'll go a bit further. +No you must hold my hand darling, it's too dangerous too many cars alright too many cars. +What? +I can't hear you sweetheart, speak up. +Charlotte what did you say? +What did you say? +I can't hear you I'm sorry wait till we get in the shop too noisy all these cars isn't it there we are nearly there now nearly there. +In you go good girl Hello. +Hello How are you? +Fine thank you. +Hello about little one. +Pardon? +So what time +Little boy or girl? +No, no a girl. +A girl. +Yeah . +Right is there anything else you want? +Something else you want, I got some Polos. +Oh give it to me. +Want anything else? +Erm +You often get the chance so make the most of it. +Any books +No you ca not toffees darling, you want some Smarties you can have some Smarties. +That's . +That's Smarties yes, do you want Smarties yeah? +I want Smarties. +You want Smarties alright that's all then. +Alright. +We'll get one of those for another day that's it now, no more don't touch You stay there, don't touch them good girl. +Sixteen pounds please. +Got some. +Put it down you're not having any more, no Alright there's good girl you can hold a packet of Polos that's right. +I want Polos. +You want Polos, I know that's why we came out isn't it lucky girl. +She likes Polo? +I like Polo. +She's adores them I don't ha , I don't know if this is normal for a child this age to eat Polos, but +Actually I like Polo I don't like other so erm I'm not really sure what does it like Polo mint. +I want Polos now. +You want, oh alright you can have one, just one. +I don't know why I mean why I like Polo. +They are nice, they're not too strong are they? +There we are right you have those. +Nice smelling. +Right off we go then, we go home go on then say bye bye. +Bye bye. +Bye. +See you again. +Hold my hand then come on hold mummy's hand, there's a good girl no you've got to pull it bye. +Alright little one. +Oh this is mummy's hat. +Who? +So what was the problem on the journey then? +Mummy +Well we got to and there's three weeks well when we came up at the beginning of May there was a notice on the main main twenty one which said +No they're done yet love. +Okay. +The tatties. +long delays expected from May thirteenth for three weeks due to major resurfacing +Hello. +etcetera etcetera +Hello. +so +You sleepy girl? +we avoided the area +Until today? +and as we're right up towards the end and now after the bank holiday we've had lovely fine weather anyway, we got off to the main road and turned at Fibwell traffic lights onto the A twenty one and we got the to end of the dual carriageway onto the tail end of the queue as it started into the road works so I just went over the central reservation and went back down the dual carriageway to the traffic lights at +Fibwell and turned right went through Tyse +Tysehurst to Wothurst round the north side of +Bule reservoir to come out at Lamberhurst in the village so I sort of circled it +Oh right. +which added another half an hour to the journey +Oh well you got here +but in the middle of all that of course there were numerous little bits of temporary traffic lights at roadworks which +conspired to change when we approached them and generally it was a bitch of a journey Hee hee hee hee hee. +I see your fork tha I see your fork. +You've seen that before. +Mm. +You've seen that before. +Oh was it upstairs? +Yes. +And it's still still do doing well. +it well it's it's lost some it's style by +by being picked. +Ow. +Some of them have picked been picked. +Oh yes you've gotta show Grandpa that +Grandpa look. +This is flavour of the month. +Oh you've got some Lego bricks. +What real Lego? +Yeah she had it as a present on +Lego. +Oh +Oh Lego basic +It's come a long way +Or or ordinary size, is it? +it's come a long way since we had Lego. +Has it? +You look at the doors and the windows, yeah +Oh yes of course, yeah. +Look at these blocks. +Oh well that's good I can get the Lego out now then can't I at home? +It's a little bit advanced. +Is it? +She usually requires +Yeah but I mean we've got a lot of +she requires a helper. +Yeah. +I've made a donkey. +You've made a donkey. +A donkey. +A donkey. +A donkey. +Is that a donkey? +Joelle's going to the hairdresser in a minute. +Yes, she just said she's making herself +a sandwich. +Right, what's up? +She's going to the hairdresser, I said she could go seeing +as you would be here. +I hope you don't mind? +No dear What what time will she be there? +I don't know what does it take an hour or so? +Oh she's only just having +Appointment's for half past one she's having +shampoo and set. +Shampoo and set, oh nobody shampoos and sets mother! +Blow dry. +That's right. +Yeah, shampoo and blow dry. +Well anyway she's having er she's having it her hair restyled. +Oh. +Oh well she'll be ba she'll be back before half past +Is it? +four won't she? +Is that when you're off? +We're going back half past four alright? +I sincerely hope so. +I shall have words to say if she's not it's a working day today. +Mm. +It's a working day. +Oh well she sounds as though she's good. +Yeah she has. +Been what? +Working day. +door. +Oh. +Oh they're nice little windows well I think we've got some haven't we? +We've got lots of windows, yes. +I think we have got windows. +Oh well windows yes but they're not +Yeah, but they don't open like that. +No, these it's it's +Oh no these are super. +The door is great I mean it's bigger actually the doors and windows are bigger now than they used to be, aren't they? +Oh are they? +Well you can make +Still +make +I can get it out though can't I, to er you know. +You'll have to watch her she's put there's a couple of flowers in there she's put in her mouth. +Oh. +It's there, and the very little bits of roof for example, probably wouldn't +No I won't +be a good idea. +No, Jessie not time yet, no no Jessie. +Are you going to sleep now? +Oh dear. +Please go to sleep please. +Doesn't she look nice in that? +Yeah, it's the first time these actually keep a lot better than the towelling ones. +Do they? +Mm. +I mean this has been worn and washed many times for Charlotte. +That's not the one I bought is it? +No, what did I what did I buy? +I bought her a thingy. +Did you, oh no this is an old one. +That's an old one is it? +Oh it looks new doesn't it? +Yeah. +Yes,th the velour types do. +Yeah. +No mine was a bit bigger wasn't it? +Yes all the new ones are hanging in the wardrobe +Oh. +cos they're all too big aren't they? +It might be my fault, perhaps I've been rushing around too much cos that affects your milk supply of course. +Mm +Could be me. +It doesn't go on there. +Perhaps it wasn't erm +Does he go on there? +perhaps it's a bit thin, ha. +No, he doesn't no, looks silly on there. +It's going down isn't it eh? +Getting there. +Oh not bad. +He might go in, go on there +Got some new trousers? +he might. +No, these are old ones. +that goes there +Are they? +Oh. +and then we put +Oh no I wouldn't wear anything new, not yet. +put that in there +not yet. +Right. +Not with all the unmentionables that go thrown all over you at this stage. +Come on then let's have a little bit of wind a little bit of wind come along. +Oh she's a little spotty soul isn't she? +Well they're going. +Mm. +A lot of them have got them +What you doing? +Let's hope she can't get the measles. +Poor +Aah. +At least she's smiling. +I'm afraid you know why. +Windy smiling. +Yes ah. +You should +There's a sad and there's a happy face, look +Come on then have it up. +isn't it? +Put on a happy face . +Oh it's awful when they don't when they won't do that isn't it? +Some babies do and some babies don't you had a bad night as well? +See you. +Bye. +Bye. +Bye. +Good luck. +Bye. +Bon chance. +Thank you. +One of us had a wonderful night, but somebody else decided to disrupt it. +Oh dear. +This one went asleep at eleven so I thought oh well I'm O K till fiveish, maybe +Mm. +but she was busy busy all evening +What's that for? +Mm. +then somebody appeared in the bed at two o'clock this morning +Nothing. +and I really wasn't quite with it what was going on +What are you standing on? +before I knew it she was suffocating she was lying across my neck. +Oh. +But erm after I'd choked for half an hour she went to sleep I eventually went back to sleep again and +Use that. +she woke up at quarter to five. +Oh what a shame. +No no, no you can't +And then she went back about half past five until nine o'clock. +What this one? +Yeah. +Yeah. +So it would have been a wonderful night. +It would wouldn't it? +Yeah What about that one did she go back to her own bed? +Mm she no she +Oh. +woke up about quarter to seven, I think I was oblivious I just about sailed off again about after putting this back. +Mm. +erm +Oh I wonder what got her up then? +Goodness knows and she came toddling in +with Postman Pat and +Yeah. +various other books +the dogs +Cos the trouble is it's a bit light then isn't it? +What two o'clock? +No. +Oh it was two was it? +Perhaps she's gone out She's gone out Okay sweetheart, come here love, let's get your jacket on. +Alright, alright I'm coming I'm coming. +You shouldn't drop your books on the floor darling, cos that's a special book. +That's your muzzy book, you mustn't si look come on watch what you're doing right let's do it up, come here! +Come on mum. +Right, there's a good girl. +Ooh you have got a big frame, haven't you? +Goodness me! +Alright? +Yeah. +Let me just check, Oh Jessie honestly why we stick to one place careful. +Yes, there's one. +Let's hope there's no right where she's going. +Ooh there's a big girl aren't you? +Ah? +Yeah I'm a big bear. +You're a big bear are you? +Yeah. +That's awkward isn't it? +Wha well I can't do it. +Getting underneath there. +I think that's the only one, oh more here. +Ready? +Weeee there. +Grandpa +Come here,don mind where you're walking, sweetie-pops. +Go on you show me. +Climb up and show Grandpa Charlotte. +Go on love Charlotte +Charlotte +come here love, please Grandpa's coming where was that I can't remember? +Ornamental thistles? +They're bloody vicious! +They are vicious yes. +Charlotte, come over here and show Grandpa. +Right don't worry Dad I'll res I'll be spraying them. +Look Grandpa, you've got to watch her. +Grandpa. +Alright Grandpa's looking. +Whey! +Look . +look Grandpa a shade. +Go and find this one now alright hon. +Oh. +Whey! +One more. +One more? +You coming? +Oh I'm not coming no. +Grandpa can't go up there. +You've go in little houses there are have you? +Ooh look at that isn't that nice! +Ooh. +Dadda ! +Hello darling, come on I said to her when she goes back to Tumbletots I shall expect big things of her. +Mhm. +No more being shy and going up the high one. +Marvellous Now I've seen all this I don't know about my question, whey! +Question of what? +Sponsoring her. +Cos she awfully loaded, the dice has been loaded against her. +Oh no, bear in mind there's twenty others of them. +Oh. +Twenty other, kiddies all doing the same. +Will she be in her little house? +Oh yes, do you want to go in your tent? +Charlotte go in your little tent Mummy come and say hello through the window. +at the window, in you go then. +Okay. +Okay then. +I can reach. +Boo! +I can reach. +Hello. +I can reach. +Where's Charlotte? +I can. +Ooh ooh, Charlotte, hello. +Hello. +Don't ooh. +How long does this last? +Mm +What sort of I don't know what life +wait. +expectancy is, oh. +Up to five I should think, five to six. +Mm, yeah maybe a bit more. +Presumably, you could get new ones? +Wait until we've braced it. +Ready, whey! +It's very well made isn't it? +Look, Grandpa. +Are you +Yes , it's a good one. +Has she had a go on that? +Yes, and she can't quite work out how to do it yet cos it moves. +Oh, oh actually +Charlotte love +Oh dear, she hasn't +No, because I've put the chair over it. +legs over here do you? +Er, no you hang on it. +Grandpa Grandpa. +Ooh, it's a bit fresh +Shall we go back inside now? +when the wind blows. +No. +Let's go inside cos Joelle will be back soon We'll go and say hello Joelle. +Oh no. +Oh put it down, it's all wilderness isn't it? +Ooh. +Oh no. +Never mind. +Blowing, blowing I want blowing. +You want blowing? +Ooh, ooh oh! +Oh. +Must you, she wants to make sure I've got a constant supply I have Sadie to thank for that. +Mm,wha +She showed her how to do that. +Mm. +We had a nice day on Monday. +Mm, well it was nice weather wasn't it? +Mm yes. +Never mind your I'm sure your thing will survive. +Oh you've got a good there coming along, haven't you? +Yes. +Are they some of the poppies, at the back there or +I don't think these are anything to do with you. +They're not mine are they? +These ones just appeared I think. +Yes er I've got one or two they're sort of +Another one there +they're wild ones and yet they're big sort of cultivating wild ones. +Mm Mm. +Oh goodness me! +And there's a lupin that appeared from nowhere. +Oh Goodness me! +Mm. +Oh no! +Oh. +It's not going to do anything though. +Well, it will if you leave it. +One day. +Yes. +What's those things over there on the wall, some of those are alright aren't they? +Yes, some of them Charlotte don't got over there lovey there's some poo there come on. +Come here mustn't walk on that. +No. +We'll walk up the path. +Shall we go in? +Let's go inside, and see Amy. +No. +Yes. +Come on darling. +No, no, no. +We'll come out again later. +Come on there's a good girl, in you go. +Grandpa. +Yeah, Grandpa's coming. +In you come love good girl there you go, there we are . +up you come. +What are the big tubs for? +Well I'm going to put these two plants in it together. +Oh the two oh the two of them? +Yes. +Yeah. +Come in the lounge. +Come on then sweetie-pops mm. +One per loo, mm. +Quick can you pa pass behind me please Charlotte. +There's a good girl I've got the shopping, don't make a noise. +Oh it's alright we don't have to be silent. +Hey wait a minute love, just a minute. +Charlotte, that's it then you can take yours in there can't you? +There we are. +There you go. +I just hope she'll sleep for a little while. +Yes, perhaps she will. +Put the kettle on. +I don't think so. +No no Charlotte don't do +No don't go in there Charlotte please. +Not out here sweetheart, please. +Come on. +You don't come out here with it normally do you? +You can walk round the kitchen but that's it. +Leg over. +Yeah. +There we'll do, just pulling out the stuff I want. +Smells nice doesn't it? +Tumble. +Mm? +I say I'm just pulling out the stuff I can tumble. +Sheet in here somewhere. +It's warm you've dropped a sock. +Come here sheet where are you. +Oh , there it is. +That's dreadful sheets and my night clothes has to be washed daily. +Yes, I bet they do. +Oh you're such a if I may and some sort of one of my projects. +Mhm. +And I want to +What sort of picture do you want? +Well I don't know, what would you suggest? +You can't erm well if it's a big bit it wants to be something baby doesn't it? +Oh something baby yes. +Like a teddy or +Yes, well cos we got the teddy on tha +ducks. +on that little free freebie. +Well I I'll ask +I was thinking of doing a teddy but I thought I wanted sort of one, two or three things don't you on the bottom? +Isn't it the latest erm +Ah it's just a monogram of one. +it's the latest embroidery magic thing sort +Oh. +Have you had them all? +Yes I have I I've looked through them all. +Charlotte come away lovey You keep her out here a minute I'll just go and find a couple of books. +Oh you haven't had that much off have you? +My presents. +No said she +My presents, my presents, my presents +Cos of the perm. +My present. +You want a present +Oh dear. +You want to put it in the fridge? +There are. +Oh dear I'm sure that child wants all this lot. +Well you never know. +Stupid ! +You might find something in there actually. +Where? +I've already started something. +Oh. +Hello. +doo doo doo doo doo doo. +There, +There's all sorts of possibilities, there's one other book which I think is upstairs somewhere, if you don't find something in there there should be some more. +I said to her when, when he was finished I said it's good enough cos you're sure what you you're doing but I said +It's quite a nice little book actually I think, that one. +Oh is it? +Oh there's one there. +There's a teddy. +Mm. +Not such a nice teddy though is it? +No I like that tassel . +I don't like the flowers. +, I wonder what green that's done in. +Don't know. +Don't know it's a mauve, something. +It's flowers of some sort. +posies. +Do you think you could change her nappy for me? +Okay. +I've only just got rid of the baby. +Jacket off. +It's been round my neck all the time. +Jacket off. +Pardon? +I say I've only just go been able to put the baby down +No no no no no . +I had to have her. +It's a shocker. +And she needs a new nappy or taken off altogether please. +Aah! +Some flowers here +I've not done a wee. +No I haven't. +Course you have. +No no no no +Pardon? +Oh. +Don't hit. +No, darling give us and you give a kiss love he we give a kiss good girl Now don't forget you do a wee in your potty okay? +Right? +In here. +In there. +Do you want to do one now? +Yeah. +Oh good girl, pull your trousers down then. +Alright? +There's lots of things in here aren't there? +Can you manage? +That's right. +There . +isn't that nice? +There. +Oh look. +Where's Grandpa? +Smoke too much. +No, it's not. +Grandpa's in the garden pulling up thistles. +I've been looking in there. +Did you did you say one in here? +No +Oh. +they're different. +Oh. +There's trains and buses an , balloons and things and things. +Don't put that in the bin please. +Run Grandpa. +Mm. +They're a bit bleak aren't they? +Hello +Thank you very much. +Monkeys, sea lions. +Do you not have little nuts and bolts in the garage? +Erm +You've probably got some jars. +Oh dear. +Oh oh oh oh that's not bad. +I'll er just go and have a look. +I can see that. +What? +Oh yes, yes I'm covered in white streaks it's a hazard isn't it? +It's a hazard. +Erm, I don't know whether th , Charlotte where I don't want you going in the dining room lovey, I'm sorry baby's asleep. +Are you going. +No I'm going in the garage. +I come in the garage. +Yes alright you can come. +Will you come in the garage? +Don't touch anything will you. +Out the way then. +No touching. +We have to do this dee dee da da da dee +Wait, Charlotte wait! +On the bear +Shhh! +On the bear. +On the bear . +Onto what? +I've no idea, she's knows what she's talking about. +Oh I thought it was a bicycle +That's on the bear That's on the bear. +Oh it's a bear. +A bear. +It's a bear. +That's on the bear. +Oh the bear. +Oh or less. +Swimming pool, mum. +Oh right. +There's a few bits in there the rest of the stuff like that is in the +where the erm +beer is. +Oh are there other other +I think so I don't know how much. +Ah alright yes nothing worth mentioning in there +no nor there. +Any likely candidates in there? +I don't think so. +I just did a potty. +You want the potty? +You go inside then please go on you can take that with you but if you want the potty you g go and sit on it now cos I don't want any more wet trousers. +No, +No, okay we +I'll go along to B & Q and get some there's a little pack. +Might you? +Well because there's no point in putting this window back until I've fixed these onto the thing, I've gotta take the glass out to put this in then slide the glass back on +Oh right. +because the bolts actually go up between the plate and the glass and there's only that much space so +Oh right, Oh we've gotta have tiny little bumps then? +Yeah, that's right well we've gotta put them round anyway but once I've got that on I can take the st steps in then no, I shall leave those there I'll just go and have a look at the other frame. +The key hangs by the door. +What out here? +The back door. +Right. +Come on your potty's in here darling, come on you'll trip over if you try and walk too far like that, come on I've got to no come on. +No no no! +Charlotte. +Now we'll have enough of that noise, come on. +She doesn't want to. +If you want to sit on your potty you sit on it I don't want a nonsense. +Don't want to sit on her potty. +Joelle could you come in here please. +How many have you looked at? +Well, that one and that one and that one. +And we're and we're grown up ! +Where's Grandpa? +That one. +Where's Grandpa? +You haven't got any of this in yellow have you? +No, only got red. +No , I might have a bit of pink. +Somebody want cup of tea or coffee or? +Oh yeah mm a cup of tea please. +Cup of coffee. +Do do do do do do do. +Dad'll have a cup of tea. +Oh. +Oh that'll be quite nice for +do do do do do do do +I like the pear. +What that pear. +So that's pear. +Mm not very kiddy-fied is it? +Well what wo , oh that's nice. +What? +That rabbit. +Mm. +Little rabbit. +Little rabbit erm, yes alternatively I think so +There wh there were no cos there's loads of things for children in the embroidery magic series there's no no possibilities in it? +Erm, I didn't fancy them somehow, went through the whole lot, the other day an just didn't sort of take my eye, if you know what I mean. +Oh. +You've got to do all these have you? +Erm, apart from them. +Check them properly. +Whoopsadaisy! +Alright? +You're alright aren't you? +Whoops! +book. +Muscles. +Small writings. +Yes, I better nip down to B & Q. +I must +You don't have to do it now if you don't want to, but it's very nice of you but +Well he it won't it won't get done for a couple of weeks' time then you'll say +It won't get done though no it won't, you're quite right. +Oh well no I'll do it next time I'm here and it'll be August. +Erm +I don't like elephants. +Yes, I can always put this round the reverse way so that goes in there well it won't +Also it won't interfere. +it won't hurt it I mean cos this is sort of like that anyway you know i it sort of suppose it does, I'll have to see. +Wha tell you what might save you a journey out there somewhere there's two automatic vent things +which I bought to fit but never did but surely they would have bolts and fittings in them. +Well I could maybe yes, that's why we need a few more to last than you possess I'll go out and have a look and see about these. +They're either in the greenhouse or in the shed. +Oh right. +I think. +Yeah, I'll have a nose round and I'll, yes I could possibly put the window back and shut one of the vents, yes. +Well it should have its so and nuts and bolts. +I'll have a look. +I think it's terrible but +She , no she said,oh I like the little vase you brought me ! +I said, we haven't brought it to for you. +Oh! +And yet the er vase, don't even collect do they? +No. +Oh well we didn't want to sell them anyway. +Not really, no. +They'd just go right in our edge o , end of that shelf I think. +Ooh ooh ooh ooh! +Oh! +Don't be rude! +Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh! +Arthur! +That's not ! +Hey? +Well don't they do it? +No! +It's about time you finished that beer. +I should think it's flat by now! +Ooh it is hot in here! +Well you're not drinking it! +Have you had that fire on full while +Mm. +I've been in here? +Yes. +Mhm. +You're +Ooh! +not drinking out of somebody elses' glass are you? +Well you don't in pubs do you? +Do you remember that one coming back from Hinkley and the butter was on the . +Mm. +We had a +Yes. +and a buttered cob. +Vince's new car looks nice don't it? +Looks in good condition. +What does? +Vince's new car. +Oh! +Not bad. +But how many's that they had, nine? +And she said er it's only a lady owner and she knew her and, who lived in Burston, lived not far away so +Well it's cos the lady owner cos they keep ja , jamming the gears and everything! +Mm. +So? +Mind you, they look real don't they? +Mm. +About a hundred miles. +Mm. +Fancy that farm not having any egg boxes for the eggs! +Yeah. +I mean a , I've been throwing mine away now we can't get them at the other farm, I mean and I said if we do, we'd better keep +Ke +them and take some in the car. +I mean, we, we couldn't have carried them +Well I said it, told you to get some just to put them in the garage when it's hot. +Well I always buy them in boxes now. +Well I wouldn't keep them in the garage anyway. +It's cool out there. +I've got to find somewhere to put all that sugar. +Up in the loft, on a tread board. +No. +Under the boxes. +No. +I might get some more seville oranges next week and make another lot. +Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ! +Tt! +Don't be silly! +It was a bad night last night. +You did? +Didn't think you did. +I never heard you. +And got a raw chest and that. +Have you looked in the programmes for tonight? +No, I haven't +Where is +got +oh here it is! +I told you the films didn't I, er earlier? +No. +They were this afternoon's. +Or Eas er,Eas fro , who is it on? +Eastwood. +It is Eastwood. +Ooh! +Have you seen +What? +Allied campaigning the Gulf War nine thirty . +No. +Nine forty the film. +That's on till eleven thirty +That's the Eas Eastwood one. +Yes, that's that's it? +Thunderbolt something What's it called? +Thunderbolt and Lightwood. +What time is that? +Nine forty till eleven +Yeah. +thirty. +No, that's too late. +Oh no. +Not much on is there really, today? +No. +Well there's Dad's Army at eight. +Mm. +In er +Perpetual Motion about the in Shackleton +Who's he? +Not who! +What! +Story of the defunct +Shackleton Plain front line of Britain's defence. +Ooh! +That, that one, King of the Wind that boy's love for a sa er well stallion, you said you wanted to see that when it was on the other day. +Do you want to see it? +Six fifteen. +Can if you want. +We can have it. +It's been on several days recently. +I know , but you, last time it was on you said, ooh I wouldn't have minded seeing that. +I've not finished reading the morning paper yet. +Candid Camera, six thirty. +Eve, would you say you were going somewhere? +Cos I want +No. +Oh. +Squinty eye there. +Look at his nose! +Mm! +There's Andrew look. +today bit fatuous It's rare for a wife to go on holiday with a male friend . +I shouldn't have thought it possible . +a male there. +Have you read about that boy who's his +Ah yeah. +arms chopped off? +Did they sew them back? +Well, they're trying but they're not sure whether they will be successful. +I should like something nice? +Do you? +Drink? +Oh yeah. +Well you've still got your beer haven't you? +I drank it. +What, what made Les er lend you the records to tape? +I dunno. +Well he he'd got a, and if I'd got to do it you know, another day, his er perhaps start and er i , well you know when he came for a meal and saw all that? +Mm. +He said then I've got a lot of tapes you know, says sit in here +Oh well. +and do them all, pick out what you want. +Or +Oh! +all of them, you know. +And er then er +No, put it there. +No you put it there ! +Oh! +What's this in aid of? +No you don't. +It won't reach. +It won't reach! +Yeah , it will. +Well anyway ,th they're good ones aren't they? +It'll give us a comprehensive selection. +Won't it? +Yeah. +Don't think we'll ne need to buy any more re , well records do you? +I shouldn't think so. +That's why I wanted to start them so I gave them back to him. +Cos, they're at risk +Well he said +while you've got them anyway. +Well he said we can keep them as long as +I know, but you might fall over them, drop one. +No! +You won't. +But er anywa , the there's about another thirty seconds on the tape, what would you do? +Just run it off. +Well you could put the other si , side +Yeah. +on. +Put the other side on. +int it? +Put the other side on and then get a new +tape ready ready to er +Well you couldn't have anybody more careful than me could you? +No. +Oh no. +You do take care of them. +There's your hanky. +I think they've taken care of them. +They don't seem to be scratched do they? +Well do don't look as if they've been used does it? +Well she said they only have them on er +Perhaps they don't like er +Christmas time. +Yeah. +Probably look at the television all the time. +Got a bit of dust on +Is that the +there. +other +The needle's picking the dust up. +Is that the other side. +Yeah. +Now we've gotta see what we got on there. +Well just, finish that tape off with it. +Look, we got that bit there. +Yeah, well finish the tape off and then a new one ready +Yeah. +to put straight in. +Er +I mean for this market research one, we ought to finish this tonight because if she comes tomorrow +Which one? +This tape that's in this erm this market research tape. +Which one, market research? +This is, this one! +That we're recording for that lady! +We've got +Oh yeah. +to finish this tape because she were coming tomorrow for it! +So she wants some music does she? +No! +She doesn't want the music! +What are you doing with it then? +You started it! +What you doing? +. +I thought they were helping you to do that. +Well take it off then! +I'll take this off then! +Yeah well how do you do this? +Couldn't you have left well alone! +That's okay. +Got a good selection haven't they? +They, they are very good they are. +Do you hear that . +Well you always wanted a piano. +Yeah. +According your that is. +And I wanted, I wanted Conways. +I thought you were going to put that low so that if so that if this did pick it up er it didn't make any difference. +Mm. +You sit in there. +Don't sit on there. +I wish I could er well don't, don't you know, that's a record case there! +Well we always clean, the carpet's clean! +What when people walk in dirt? +No! +And you go out and you ca That's finished anyway. +Have you got another tape ready. +I can do, I think, stop it. +How many more have you got left from the Christmas box tapes? +Two, four two or four I should think. +This one here, I think that's been play , that's been played on. +I told you to keep the new ones separate. +You'll get them all mixed up! +See how it goes. +They are. +Oh. +Good! +Oh! +What's that? +Nothing. +Baker Conway, he's is a we wanted one of his things. +Yes. +And you got him now for nothing. +I think he went on a liner. +Well he did! +And then +Well all of his +and erm one of them lost th use of his fingers. +It wasn't when they +I think that was him. +Probably was. +I wish I'd have carried on with piano lessons. +But then we used to se +Your mum must have read that little finger. +Then we used to sniff, you know, and Mrs come and knocked on the front door says er, our house is asleep do you mind not playing, you know. +Cos er there were only four and a half inch divide in brick walls. +Mm. +Yeah! +Mm. +So I mean not double. +These er, these mi might be the same, but you can't expect to have to stop sound going through a four and a half inch wall can you? +We had a piano but nobody +Mm. +ever complained about us practising. +Well, you got good neighbours then, that's all I can say. +She came and knocked on the door and then we went back and I, I said what you stopped for? +I says er, so I said, started playing ten minutes, she couldn't have got up the stairs and were back again! +Mm! +Asking us to stop. +So that was it. +That ended the first on my piano. +I mean, you can't practise piano if people next door complain can you? +Can you? +Well +I mean er +Well most people did have pianos and er practised. +Well, you know when I used to come to you walk across cos of the trams, Christmas day, all down Argyle Street every a a ev , they were bulging you know! +Mm. +But sometimes the door was open and they'd do it all out the front doors like this a and fresh, fresh people trying to get in. +And th the pianos were going full blast! +Well I told you Gordon brought his drums to our house +Well +one Christmas! +well must have been different neighbours to my day ! +You know, because we'd got a piano, he'd got a drum set for Christmas. +He was about seventeen or eighteen then. +I thought you said +A +it was nearly finished? +The tape's still running. +It's about finished now. +This is. +Sh shall I put another tape in for the rest of it? +Yes, that's what I said, put a new tape in. +You might have got it ready for me! +I told you to get th ta , one ready! +Well, still haven't got it. +These have been undone though haven't they? +Well I don't know. +Well there's no wrapping. +Well they're about to , five in a, in a big wrapper that's why they're lose. +Side A. +But I mean there's two at the back with individual wrappers. +Mm. +I don't know. +Look! +Well i , you're, you're +the +How much of these two do I +expert on that. +want to do? +There's nothing on the . +No. +Well side, +How much do you have? +Do you wish you could go back to the good old days? +No. +You don't? +No. +Why? +The wa +Just making sure. +The way you carried your shoes in a brown paper bag and when you were at ours. +When you +When you're dancing? +when you were going out and the had stopped and all the girls had a you know, the ordinary paper bag with a got their shoes in there. +Oh I know! +I remember. +They never change their shoes though now +No. +do they? +Anyway, they all have taxis now. +Yeah. +True. +Oh, we know this one don't we? +Mm. +Oh! +I was always annoyed though, Phil and George were magnificent dancers and the chap I used to walk out with sometimes he er he'd he he used say now that I look like this! +He used to dance like that. +Behind his back, like this. +He wasn't, I wasn't in it, you know, something like that. +Well, you danced well when we went to . +I could do park parade tha , a girl was, er er anywa , I went in the factory and one of the girls says they were saying about a dance, says ooh I quite a few you ought to see him dance the park parade! +Course, I'd been to Cecille's, half a crown for an hour. +Every Saturday. +I went there for lessons. +Did you? +And er she walked on front of there were twenty of us in two rows +I know how I, +she walked on front doing the steps +and she says I'm going to walk wi , with my back so I'm going to listen says, ooh! +There's one there he he missed the step. +And I said, it was m , I was called out you know a pa , a partner like I said it was Lesley! +But he said no, no, no ! +Oh! +And then +We know this one don't we? +in Rushden I er see to all the girls dancing, you know, like a like you, when you were young. +And I went, would she take, he says yes er half, I say, half a crown er a, for half an hour every Friday. +But er I dunno er some other pe they, I always felt such a fool, you know! +And they were looking at me and I thought this int my cup of tea! +Turn it down a bit.. +Well that's what they want to hear. +I know this . +I know this one. +The rain in spain felt mainly on the rain! +That's not the right phrase ! +Mainly on the plane. +The plane. +Well that's er I keep getting that. +Ooh I love ! +Won't you just sit down! +Well I keep getting up. +This is a bit boring, you know,sort of jumping. +Well , just sit down then! +Sit down! +It's a bit too loud. +That's better. +Where did you start dancing? +I told you! +I went to Cecille's. +Well we would have had at school. +Did you go to any church dances? +We went to St. +No. +Pace I think it was and er i +What in Grandon Street? +No. +That church near you, er the Imperial up Spinney Park that way. +Oh no, I don't know any churches round here. +Anyway, er there was er the floor was six inch three inch floor boards and they'd been danced and da +They'd just put chalk down didn't they? +and the nuts, yeah +Yeah. +they used to go out sprin and the nuts'd come above the wood. +Yeah , I do know, yeah. +You know. +And they used to sprinkle some fresh +Chalk. +chalk all over. +Mm! +I'm pleased we've got this record now! +Yeah! +Aren't you? +Been trying everywhere to get one didn't we? +Mm. +Beats all the re rock and roll don't it, really? +Mm. +Although, they've got some surprisingly +Yes. +modern ones +Modern, yeah. +in theirs. +Di , was Madge a good dancer? +No, I don't think Madge and Tom would dance much. +What about Kathleen? +Mm. +I don't think they went all that much. +Well she was young in them day anyway,an the war came along didn't it? +Yes but +Where's your reading glasses? +You've not had them all day! +No. +Where are they? +Down there. +I know , but I couldn't see them though. +I can read without them. +I don't really need them. +I know you can , but you're squinting. +Well only, look here! +You say that, look at that, can you see anything in there between the two? +Yes, those lines. +No. +You gotta see the two dish the space in between. +Yes! +I can see them. +I can see it. +Whe where? +I can see it. +But, there's a all you can see is a little bright spot +Mm. +well that ain't the space. +If you tilt it like, can just see it in her mouth, sixteenth between the two. +Is it nearly finished? +Yeah, it means there's ha , it's played half, another half to go. +Oh. +What else you going to have to eat tonight? +Oh I don't want anything more. +Coffee? +I could do. +Do you want some cake with it? +No, it's I've had enough cake. +Or my flapjack? +Oh . +You don't, you've not tasted one! +They're lovely! +I'll have one tomorrow, I I've look if you're full, you're full! +You don't want an obese +good brown sugar and butter. +you don't want an obese husband do you? +I don't know. +I think you're getting a bit fat round the middle now! +Well that's what I thought. +Trousers are +Well Tom is! +my trousers are getting too tight! +Ooh! +That reminds me when I go in town tomorrow I'm going to take one of yours. +Mm. +To get done. +Those navy ones they're the tightest aren't +Mm. +they? +That navy pair? +And they were +Yeah. +expensive!they were! +Well if you're not going to have anything else to eat you better have some medicine. +Yes. +Get rid of my cough cos it +Do you want, do you want some more now? +it's a dry cough int it? +I'll get it. +Do you want me to meet you tomorrow or anything? +What about +No. +all the library books? +No, they're not due back yet. +Did you want me to meet you or anything? +No. +I shall be alright. +I've got the, the shopping all that lot today. +Can you undo it? +My hand's still not, not much use. +Look, don't spill it! +Will you ha will you have some? +Not now , I've just had some. +Cos I've still got a bit of a throat and it said for sore throats too if you want. +Mind! +You're spilling it! +Well you so are you! +If you get it on there. +I should have had a +It soothes doesn't it? +wash your hands. +Don't you think so? +I know what to do! +Bring me a hot towel and a ! +Ooh! +You'll be lucky! +Don't go down the mine +No. +Look! +daddy! +Don't go down tonight. +Well this isn't it. +What is his name? +Erm +Used to be a tearjerker. +Then it was the boy stood on the burning decks. +Oh! +Shut up! +That was another one. +Now tomorrow , all I've got to get is meat. +And you know for your dinner +Mm. +will you have that shepherd's pie? +Mm. +I don't know what I want. +It's got to be got rid of I suppose int it? +Well er, I made a big one. +Unless we put it out for the cat. +You cheeky thing! +For the birds, more like. +There were two cock blackbirds this morning. +No, will you have, you're not very keen on fish. +So I'll get a bit of fish for myself. +I think that's putting it mildly! +What? +You remember in France, the er they made you where we kept walking round the table and er she sa , anyway said er fish soup? +And you said yes. +And he turned to me I said not likely! +She says, why? +I said cos it's smells the place ! +He he er, he he got a bit humpy! +I don't like the bouillabaisse. +Well that's no. +Although, at that place it was alright but +Mm. +it's not one of my favourite ones. +What was your favourite? +What is my favourite? +Mm. +I don't know. +It still is then, I suppose, by that. +Well it +What was, means the past but is, means the present. +You can tell you made reminiscent with your slang +What, and I were brought up in church? +How did they expect them to talk down there? +We used to say are you gorrit ? +Well you needn't put it on there +You don't, you don't hear that now do you? +Well don't put it on there! +You do in some parts of Leicester. +Do you? +Listen to me! +Well it soon be spring now, I suppose. +Well we're getting to the +Operation dig up! +It won't! +We've got all the bulbs to come up fo , yet. +Mm. +They're a bit hesitant at the moment. +No they're not! +They're shooting through. +This side's not as good as the other one is it? +No. +That's more gen gentle innit? +That's waltz. +I think that Welsh dresser looks better without that teapot on it now. +Well i i li +It didn't really go with the rest of it did it? +what you win at darts at the fair int it ? +No. +No. +But I mean it didn't really go with the rest of the things. +Well no, well he said that but +Yes. +Only worth ten pounds then. +Yeah. +Somebody else'll have it ti , ten years time. +Bottle of whisky. +What does Bill do now, these days, do you reckon then? +We don't know a Bill. +Has he found any , no yours er Martin's then. +Martin's boy? +I don't know. +He didn't seem to +Well he's got his allotment and he helps Tina doesn't he? +That's not much of an allotment now is it though? +No, but he +I think the garden is old. +Yeah. +Although, somebody said they thought he might er, give it up this year. +Mm. +I wonder what George's garden like? +Who George ? +Mm. +Ooh! +Don't you remember once we went round, he'd got a lovely garden! +And then went and it was all overgrown +Yeah. +And then the next time, a few years later he'd got it back +Mm. +he'd got it nice. +Oh yeah. +Didn't he have a railway running a model +Around. +railway? +Yes. +A ste , little steam loco? +But, I expect erm as he was in all last year I should think he +He didn't bother. +let it go. +I mean, Catherine said +Mm. +was suffering from that operations so +Yeah. +and I bi , you know that big loft I helped get the, get the la big lathe he bought from the +Mm. +firm. +Well he'd got a, the little marker,th well about two and a half feet marker. +I says, er don't you use that now? +He said, no. +I said, you ever thought of selling it? +He says, well no, not really. +He says I'll er do it up I think an , what he did he painted it you see. +Well we went over two or three weeks later and happened to mention it he wanted two hundred pound for it! +Well you could had it. +Well no it's he didn't give two hundred pound for it, and he'd had it eight or ten years. +Anyway, I've no use to +Well I think he's getting back into circulation now. +Wi with ringing me +Yes. +er up today. +And he was going to this er +Mm. +apparently, a friendship meeting or something, for elderly people in the village. +And he was giving a lady across the road a lift there. +So cos apparently, while he was on the phone she came knocking at the door then +Mm. +and he said, well wait a minute while I answer the door. +And er he apparently told her to sit in the car while he finished his +Mm. +conversation with me on the phone. +Did he +You were in the garden so I couldn't +Yeah. +fetch you. +Will he marry again? +No! +No! +Old Kath said he did didn't she? +No. +It was about fours years. +And I, and Ma , and I was saying about Ma , you know,Ma , happened to say Madge, you know, and er er, you know we said that th , that I weren't going out. +And he says, oh well er something now, I forget, what was it? +Oh he said, she, she +Well Kath was a very +I should think she's being very ge ge er er, er given her a lot yo yo you know. +Wha what he's done and what, you know. +And I nearly said, but I didn't, I I I could have said, well, look what she got er out of her her husband. +You know, those . +Mm. +You know, she never mentioned that, yet she mentioned what Vince were doing now. +I mean, fair's fair int it? +Still +Yes, but Kath is a sort of er very +Up and down with +No , loving person isn't +Yeah. +she? +I mean, a very fussy person, she likes somebody to fuss over. +And er, he seems +Never fussed over me when I've been in her vicinity! +Yeah cos you're , you're my husband, you're not her! + +If you go round the other side please Ann. +Yes I did call you Dominic didn't I? +No I mean you +There. +mustn't leave it there too long. +Do you? +Your marvellous cyclamen! +You don't leave there do you, all time? +Ooh no! +Er indeed we've we hardly use that room since we had the territory room because that would grow +Oh that's right . +so well! +Mm. +And you see it's +I should take it out now. +I feel very ill! +I will. +What's that darling? +The cyclamen, because I +I've +Oh! +It's so useful and we've seen it and enjoy it. +I think I'll use it . +is so very warm for it +It's lovely, mm! +there but +It's simply glorious! +Hasn't it done wonderfully! +You ought to in that glorious bowl! +last +Ooh, no look who's here! +Yes, I know. +If you put them in a hot room they don't do so well. +Put it in there. +I wonder what it would it look like in there? +Ooh yes, it would, it would perhaps I mean +Exaggerate. +Mm. +Oh yes, I wouldn't dare ! +It's been broken twice in my lifetime. +Yes I know. +Mm. +Yeah. +This wine is a shot in the dark. +It was very much recommended by the Wine Society an Italian wine and I hope that +I hope it's not full of this thing they're sending it all back for! +Ooh I hope not no! +We won't try it ! +Well that's lovely! +Considering its name,was as cheap white. +There are limits to what I'd dare and +This isn't a cheap wine! +No, well +I can just imagine he's probably hanging down ! +It was a cheap wine that I thought +Was it in ? +that +Yes. +er . +He'll come to that club. +One of his fathers, yes. +Girls, can I please persuade you not to touch the dish, whatever else if you need slide it then use , you see that +Mhm, yeah. +sort of thing or Right! +Doing it tidily is always the thing isn't it? +Yeah. +Well that's the thing I have I had to give up years ago. +Mm. +What, trying to do everything tidily? +Tidily! +Cos I can't quite no, that's nice. +I know, that's the problem. +Mollie erm please don't touch that dish will you that's, er chipped potatoes in there and oh let me see what that is, can't you? +That's gravy carrots and peas. +You've had a problem with damp Mollie Noel tells me? +Well it isn't erm specifically in the erm cupboards it's just erm because I'm now coping with who has acted like a erm shoemaker shoemaker's son do all your job I am coping with what he did thirty odd years ago +Oh! +and it's all gone bad! +I mean the erm I still had to have completely new guttering in the summer because you cannot get anything to mend the other walls because it's the wrong side! +And the only bit of damp I've got is in one corner of the house but it came from a blocked erm pipe. +Oh I see! +A blocked pipe. +Oh that's awful! +No, no not a blocked one but I mean let's face it +It's alright now, carry on being all er carry on now and +Mm. +Tha , you know we can have a run of erm +Yes. +gutters they they they're in four piece, they're four yards or something. +Yes. +And then you have a join +Yes. +Yes. +Well on that join I suddenly saw water rushing down the wall! +You see that's a that's a comparable thing to what happened in ours and that was +Erm, I'll do I'll do that cos, go on. +Erm, +assistant at any rate made water tip straight o out of the and down the wall you could never +Into the , into the cabinet and the old wooden structure! +Well yes. +Mm. +It was! +I had to clear it all off though the the original, what they sort of call, what the dog there +Oh really,! +Well they had to come out to +I think that maybe you should have done much more actually, but I I haven't argued because he's so . +It's no good him taking the bridge down out now, because he can't put the wall can't really re-brick there now much too wet! +That's right. +Oh yes! +Can you manage love? +Yes, thank you dear. +So that I'm suffering. +The major thing I find so +But I , my personal suffering was erm in the summer, frightfully! +And you see, you know the ball over the gutters +Yes. +well said it doesn't look as if it's been painted once since it was built! +Oh! +And that's all +Yep. +wrong! +Is no one any +Yeah. +of this +of these +Roast potatoes just there. +potatoes. +Oh Anne, come on! +No, I'm not a potato person! +You slimming? +No, I just don't like potatoes. +Well I like potatoes. +I always had hopes of you! +Have some more Mollie. +Huge hunks of bread, I had a huge hunk of bread at tea time. +Go ahead. +Ah, you should never eat +up to supper. +That's right. +I just don't like +Not really as though you'd know it! +potatoes, I don't like +Have a try. +Oh come on! +We've only got three bits there. +No, no, no, I've got crowds there! +Really? +I've I've probably got much too much. +Oh I think I'll leave it there the dishes are so hot! +Oh leave them. +You couldn't possibly cool +I'll get them. +Bon appetit! +It's lovely! +Very well thank you. +congress +Right +now. +Cheers! +Cheers! +Mm! +Thank you so much for . +That now. +There's a very slight prickle with it isn't there Noel? +It's not supposed to be a fizzy is it? +They often do that don't they, you get a little funny prickle. +What, with the wine? +Yes. +Mm. +I know, I I was given +That's right! +because it was well written up in the Wine Society I would descr describe it as nice, nice but innocuous. +Yes it's alright, it's nice but +what darling? +Nice but innocuous, I mean that's +Oh I see. +Mm, you can. +Surely that's not as nice as well innocuous! +And not nasty and innocuous. +It has got a very slight fizziness though hasn't it? +Mm. +Yes. +Very , very slight +Yes. +. +Which often +It has. +goes out of it when it's . +Well that's +Well I mean +Spumante and all, the lot of those +Mm. +Italian wines they're +Now it's reminiscent a that that can't be my deja vu who, cos I don't think you can in tastes but it's reminiscent of something to me. +Oh is it really? +But I don't know what. +Ha. +What? +Well maybe white wines are er spritzy aren't they? +Oh yes, and this isn't +I think. +not meant to be . +It often gets a little a little secondary fermentation in the bottles. +Yes,i i it looks +That's right. +Mm. +Oh does it? +Yeah. +Oh well. +And it sort of fades. +Mm. +You can if it's +But that +red one but it's very strange sort of +I know that with the +Oh is that red? +they'd already been +I agree. +Ya. +That is very strange! +It sort of erm in Italian wine once or twice but when I ordered this I took the care to order up +Mm. +in the price range somewhat. +Mm. +Yes it's true. +Actually you're not fond enough of white wine are you to +No. +No, I'm not either I think +No, no I'm not all that. +red of the two. +I mean I I +You mean to say you ladies would have accepted red? +No. +Oh nice! +Go and get a bottle of red. +I'll go and get a bottle of red, quick. +Oh that's, no +No. +oh no oh,ha oh +No, and it doesn't really go with fish does it? +Not really. +Mm mm. +Not really. +David and I have searched high and low for it +I don't see why not. +but no but it doesn't quite +I don't see why not. +it doesn't erm +not with fish in cream. +Oh does it improve the the wine at all +No. +. +Yeah. +I think fish in cream sauce is a very nice is one that doesn't need a +What kind of fish is this? +It's very good. +It's halibut. +Oh +Mm. +by jes +Yes, it's very nice! +I'm glad I asked +but I'm glad I asked cos I couldn't quite work out +No? +what it was. +Well if I tell you a little secret about this. +Mm. +It's up at the fish shop in Framlingham +Mhm. +Mhm. +and it now cheaper than coley! +But sometimes +So +happen don't they? +Coley is two ninety five a pound. +mm mm. +And halibut fillet is two sixty. +Really? +Really? +Well cod, cod was stuff we used to moan when we children. +Yes. +Incredible! +And it was the cheaper fish than, cheapest +Yes. +fish. +Well yes, mm. +I mean it was a common fish wasn't it? +Mm. +Mm. +Really delicious! +They're trying to put us off in because of the +Mm. +over fishing there's been. +Mm. +Mm. +One you don't see much though is hake is it? +No you don't and when we were children well we +That's much nicer than cod. +My mother used to do a +Much nicer. +A great big piece of hake +Mm. +and with as if it was chicken with erm parsley thyme stuffing +Oh yes. +a little bit of bacon +Mm mm! +Lovely! +and it was baked and that was lovely! +That would be it. +Yes. +Mm +Mm! +Mm. +Oh yes, I remember grandfather who was very knowledgeable about fish we used to say that +hake was the scavenger of the seas! +Mm. +Is that hake? +a lot of people say they don't fancy hake . +Mm. +Well nobody used shrimps before. +But the mackerel +If it had been a mackerel, yes exactly! +Oh yes. +The mackerel +Yes. +is the one that mainly . +I love mackerel! +Those that eat, don't say it. +I des describe it as a dirty eater, mackerel. +Yes. +Mhm. +Yes. +Mm. +Well fruit sundae was rather +Well shrimps and prawns +shrimps and prawns are aren't they? +Mm? +Mhm. +And full of phosphorous. +Mm. +Oh really? +Yes. +Good for our brains. +Are, are they? +Brains. +Oh yes they are. +Are they? +They're +Mm. +the ones that shine in the dark when you're +Mm mm. +coming home rather failing +That's right. +and you that's right, you've got to run and ask them. +And I've seen you do it in a lot of them. +I don't know whether it was +Oh yes! +Oh really? +Oh right, yes +Haddock was very . +Really? +Haddock's got phosphorous in it? +Yeah. +Really? +Mm mm. +Good heavens! +Look what I've done! +Oh bother! +Oh look what I've done. +I've never known it as that. +No, wasn't it a marvellous day today! +Weather was +Absolutely incredible! +You know tha that his lordship er cut the grou , the field. +Really? +Yes! +the field. +I wish would cut mine! +Ne ne near the +Mm. +in the holiday, aren't there holidays? +Why not, I've seen the +I thought it was a bit early yet, there's a frost isn't it now? +There's morning , I'm +No I mean that erm if you cut the grass just before frost it doesn't like it does it? +Oh but then, this is only +But when, that's right. +You shouldn't cut that though, but er +I think a lawn, not, no. +No but she was sayi +That's right. +Now really but erm this year's been so peculiar that +Mm. +people are going to want to cut it. +Mm. +Their only choice. +Well I mean the normally it would kill the grass, but it won't matter this year. +Mm. +I wonder if we'll get any snow? +No, no, no. +No. +John the butcher at erm butcher this morning and I said never say it's gonna snow, I said, it won't snow will it John? +He said well you've been right since Christmas and if you say it's not going to snow, it's not going to snow! +Mm. +Mm mm. +Mm. +This +What about the birds? +And I walked up the village this morning the birds were singing their songs +Mm. +that they sing and the reels were +I just think we've +marvellous! +we've had lots of rain! +Well the flood barrier! +I know! +Well we +A an +shan't, we shan't +and +have a flood. +Anne is terribly on my side, she, still hasn't rained every time I see her! +Oh! +I think, she said if you dig down a way it's dry +Mm. +from nineteen eighty +Mm. +nine still! +Mm. +I wonder whether that's what er, I wonder i you see it looks damp on the top doesn't it? +Mm, very slightly, really +But +but if you dig down +about six inches, it's dry! +Mm. +So they they +gone and what they call the head at least four times lately. +Mm. +Just walking in the garden I was +Very slightly isn't it? +Very slightly. +Mm. +Mm. +though. +Mm. +Terribly frightening! +Mm, mm. +It just would be so awful to move our lovely trees cos they're all so, so dependent, that's it! +That's the the trees. +That's all I worry about. +Yes! +It's no good worrying about it, I do know that! +Mhm. +It is +But +worrying though. +Well no, I've met pe also Lady +Mm mm. +and she said David said he saw a few snow flakes. +Well I said if I see three snow flakes we're off to Tenerife! +Well we have, we have. +Mm. +Very slight snow shower about two days ago didn't we? +Yes. +It was powdery. +Yes, like, mm +Very, a little powdery and +And it didn't stay. +We were on the way back from visiting +Mm. +er Richard, you know, and i +Mm. +and I said, that's snow! +Mm. +Oh really? +Just powdery. +So we half an hour of sleet once. +Mhm. +That was . +And it bounced and bounced and bounced and I thought it was going on for ages but it didn't. +No. +Oh! +Soon disappeared. +Mm. +Have you got any fish left in your pond Mollie? +No. +Haven't you? +Heron took the lot! +Oh no! +Oh God! +Oh! +and we were having lunch, a late lunch on what day did I say? +On Sunday cos they were going soon and erm James was clearing up the garden you see I've go , I can't I I can see gable +Yes. +and the gables over on erm the lodge and I can't see +Past. +Yes, Are they a bit nearer? +I mean i it all looks the same +Yeah. +to me. +Mm. +And the heron you see is the same colour to me as the grass. +Oh yes! +And James said, there's a heron slaughtering one of your big goldfish! +Aagh! +You see. +Yeah. +Oh and we all rushed out and said, shoo! +And it flew o , flew away. +Mm. +And then Ted and I went out a little bit later and we sa , we found two goldfish and two golden +They damage them don't they? +Oh,! +so they haven't got a or they +No, they bite so, oh do they? +No they , they swallow them. +Yeah. +I mean they swallow them quite nicely. +And sometimes they just +And I said well that's ! +next time. +And the next day I went off and there wasn't even a snail +No. +in the pond. +No. +Nothing at all! +No. +Oh God! +Cos I think I've +That's terrible! +got a carp too. +Oh yeah! +Terrible! +If perhaps you were to spread erm a wire netting over the pond Mollie? +Well yes I know, but I'm not having that! +But erm what I am going to do but I can't do it until the spring erm at least until erm has cut the grass for the first time +Mm. +erm, out there. +Then I'm going to do what is the proper thing to do which is chop that to size +With the same as that , yes! +Yes, +Oh yes that +that and farm and +Yes. +this black +so many creatures +black stuff +Yep! +so they could be thrown over Oh this behaviour, no, they're so inflexible with their programme! +Three feet from the wall from your +you see, and they get their +I see! +feet tangled +Yeah. +but I can't, it's no good doing it now because you see erm dogs can get in at present and +Yes. +and rushing about and +You needn't do anything horrid to them, terrible! +I mean,you can just er +Oh no! +a wire cage +they, no just go away. +I mean I've seen it +them. +they don't like it. +No. +They're incapable +No. +That's right. +because of the erm it's not wire, it's +No. +just a a thread, you +Oh! +see? +And they get a bit +Mm. +Mm mm. +My father always used to do that for his crocuses because the birds loved the yellow ones, don't they? +Mm. +Mm. +And his daffs, he was going to use his, lose his yellow crocuses of the year so he spread black cotton +Oh yes mm. +Mm. +and they jolly well learned +Yes, I know, simple. +that that's what +Oh yeah. +that it +Mollie. +was there! +Mm. +So we had to get used to the ending up in +Mm. +black cotton against the sparrows I used to get really fed up with it! +Poor little things! +And I thought I'd got +I understand now what it was. +knowing erm why all the purple cro crocuses good cook and I thought I've got no +And at nights I used to feel like +and I had got +cos they've come now haven't they? +Ah yes, that's +And I +right +I told you! +All I've got all morning, +Mm. +and I've got clumps of of snowdrops where I'd and some where I didn't know even know I had snowdrops and +Mm. +now I have found those lovely little erm wild purple crocuses +Mm. +I couldn't +Good! +think what their was? +Right in the middle of a plot needless +Mhm. +and they're all coming out! +And they're round +Good! +my ! +Good! +And so I, I've found that there +but I've, but I've lost my baytree. +Mm. +How much +But that's moles. +Mm. +Oh moles! +Oh dear! +Well they got down in the grass you see. +There's quite a lot of them again this +Mm. +year. +They got them, mm? +They have a lot again this year, moles. +Will we? +Mm. +Well I've got millions! +Well I +Have we? +I must ring erm r Eddy and ask him if you get them ? +I don't know whether you can get them wi weather like this. +Oh! +Why do you say there are more Noel? +Well I don't know why we've got more, but we've got a lot. +Oh I'm sorry! +I thought you were prophesying. +We've got some have we? +Mm! +Well I didn't know. +Oh! +Even in the back now. +That is the . +Mm. +They come from a bank and a ditch always. +Well you've certainly got them. +Well I've never get it before now right? +Now who is Eddy ? +Well Mrs 's son. +Oh! +And erm, when I said to them because he's sharp so she says. +My . +Well he's wonderful! +And the wo mind you, he's much too heavy for me but of course, well my father was and they're arm things but I must get some fresh. +And, I said well I don't know what I'm going to do without Jack because he was so wonderful with my moles last year he said you haven't had me yet! +Oh! +No erm, so I thought well +Brilliant. +if he thinks he's as good as that then have him. +Trouble is, if you remove moles you just leave an evolutionary niche for them and they're another lot move into the field, you can never get rid of them because if you remove your own private moles another +Mm. +lot come in, you see. +Mm. +Oh how lovely! +But do you mean that they wouldn't try and +Oh they're really lovely! +visit if you had your own moles? +Well no, but they won't over-densify, they wo won't make the population too dense, you see. +I see. +And th , you know,the they might spoil +Might be +things. +mine come in +Yes, I'm sure they will. +and they go over the fields. +Yeah. +Yeah! +And there are hundreds of the wretched +Mm. +. +Mm. +I consider four moles are too dense. +Mm. +Yes. +One mole is too dense for me! +Mm. +Cos they always get under your favourite plant! +Mm. +Fay, can I pass you some more vegetables up? +No, I'm doing fine thank you darling. +But please encourage other people to have some. +Well I'm sorry +I've been trying to. +I have here. +Ha have some more veg. +No,eat this one. +And a little bit more. +No it +I'm fine thank you Noel. +I hope you're never looking at me but I have to dinner. +Why not! +I put my life down to fish and +Mollie , you know that my I dislocated my jaw in November mm. +Mm? +How? +Just eating a sandwich! +How could you? +Cheese sandwich. +I don't know! +Mm. +And it clicked and I, well occasionally before and very occasionally and I +Might have +I just the slightest sort of movement has readjusted it and this would not move at all! +And erm I'm shovelling food now because it's so difficult! +I still can't get it any wider . +Really? +Mm. +Nope. +Mm. +Drop more wine Mollie? +No thank you, I'm alright. +. +By the way those did I tell you they put me on some tablets to re to erm to erm +No. +relax the muscles, +Really? +Yes,. +Well there must be something in it because I feel so relaxed these days I can't get +oh really! +Well that's nice! +Don't flap about anything! +Well er +No quarrels. +Erm, somebody tells me that Sarah is erm doing very well but has had a foul cold ever since she's been over there, is she very well now? +Yes, she went with a yes she has. +Mm. +I phoned her on the fourth night to say goodnight to her that was all. +spoken to her in the meantime +Mhm. +and she was actually, at nine o'clock +Well she don't +erm well in bed. +Mm. +lives at Foreham which is just the other side of . +Mhm. +She was very bad at start with the new people but then I'll take her up +Mm. +She can't make a commitment. +But she can be very , she can be very secluded there. +Mm. +Mm. +She can be just . +I reckon she wants to +Oh it's a lovely little lane I've I've always loved that lane. +I know you think I'm +Have you ? +Have you? +Yes. +And lives on there. +Well I've known Derek since I was six weeks old. +I was taken there for the first time when I was six weeks old in a motor side car down from London to just within ten miles of Bury St Edmunds. +Why I didn't die I don't know! +We well, a motor side car! +Yes, absolutely! +I'm astonished +erm because my grandmother wanted to see her first grandchild before she died. +Oh yeah. +And she died about two months later. +At six weeks, +You see I Connie. +Really? +and Connie, Connie's six weeks younger than I and grandma never saw her. +Oh well she did +but she had a grandson before that, she had a grandson who was born in eighteen ninety three and his name was on . +I don't even +Oh really? +think that in those days anybody would have considered taking a child out like that, you know! +They do it now! +That's right. +It drives me +In a car +me up the wall! +Erm the things they will do for these new little things. +I never used to feel +I know. +that mine were really here until they . +Did it have a lasting effect on you Mollie? +Well, you can be the judge of that! +No,got it I think, yes! +But then +You don't like motorbikes and side cars do you Mollie? +It's amazing really! +No. +Well I used to ride a motorbike a and my father had a Triumph motorbike because he bought I don't why he, why he bought it and he was terrified of it cos it was very fierce! +And my brothers used to ride it, so I used to ride it and I rode it for miles! +Did you? +Then I rode it in a in an old Burberry and I don't how I started it, I think it was kick start. +Mm, yes. +Oh it must have been. +And then we were at Frinton, masses of us, and we always used to go to Frinton in the summer because one of my uncles had a house there and we knew the people who erm dad used to play golf and mother used to knit on the beach, you know. +Oh yes. +Mm mm. +And we used to th masses of cousins there and erm one one of my Jean, my cousin about ten months younger than I said, can I have a go Mollie? +And I said, yes you see, gave her a try and so she went if you know Frinton you could go, in those days +Yes I know it. +you could go round, well it's the same now, but in those days you could go round, past the summer theatre and down Old Road where we were staying and on to a and do a circle you see? +Mm. +And we started her off and she went round and as she went past the second time she said I can't stop! +Oh! oh! oh! +Oh no! +And then she went round again and we said well push so and so +Oh my! +How awful! +And nobody had told her how to stop you know. +I can remember not being able to get off my sister's much bigger push bike, just an ordinary push bike +Oh yes! +and I pedalled frantically round, didn't know how to get off again cos it was much too high. +And I remember just sort of leaping onto some grass and just letting it go, you know, could of been . +Oh I remember them emphatically +Oh yes! +now,. +Yes, +I know, I probably learn you see because I borrowed +when I was about twelve and I remember bashing into a nanny with a pram. +Oh, she was furious +Oh dear! +with me! +I bet she was. +I bet she was. +cos of nowadays, well they didn't then because she was beastly to me now! +Oh ! +Now this is where the meal gets a little bit French because I have sauce to deal with. +So you are left with erm conversation +I'm going to top your glass up with a +No thank you darling. +No. +I had an experience with a bike when I was very small a girl up the road was given a bike and I had quite quietly learnt how to ride a bike more or less. +Mhm. +And I, I said can I have a ride? +And she said yes. +And I went up and down the road and miles away then came back and I couldn't stop because this bike was very old fashioned and you had to stop it by pedalling back +I know. +pedalling backwards! +Oh yes +I know. +I've heard of them! +And I I +I remember those. +Well! +pedalling backwards +Mm. +and I said there are no +No. +brakes! +There are brakes! +No. +Oh dear! +Anyhow I steered it straight up somebody's drive into their garden. +Oh yes, up a hill or something. +! +No. +How awful! +I've never ridden one but I've heard of it, with this back +Yes, I've heard of it. +Oh yes, that's right. +Yeah. +Be quite good, although you maybe do it by accident sometime and be rather jerky! +That's what I thought earlier. +That's very sudden you +Oh! +see. +Mm. +Back pedalling, mustn't you? +Hey? +Yo , you might stop sort of suddenly. +Stop very suddenly. +And then you'd +Yes,yo well I I I yeah, no I have actually got +No. +th ridden one. +No, I never have +But +certainly but I have of that. +Well no not +But I can remember riding this girl's +Mm. +bike can't stop! +Can't stop! +! +And so er er can +Mm. +remember riding up +Mm. +up this slope into a +Yes. +onto grass or something. +How are your erm, I heard about erm, I've erm heard Sebastian lately but how is little Romley getting on, is he alright? +Oh he's fine, yes! +The +Mm. +they make too much fuss of him and they bring him back +Yes. +too often but +Mm. +Yes. +Good! +And John has got an order to build a new Orkingford Chapel. +Oh at +Which would +John's! +At John's. +Oh how lovely! +Oh have they, good! +Yes. +Mm. +And that's the second one +Oh that's lovely! +since the war. +Mm? +They had +Is it? +Is it really? +they had new one after the war. +Why do they want another one? +It's just isn't satisfactory. +How extraordinary. +No. +John's gotta build a new one. +Oh! +He's not complaining? +No. +No. +And at your old stamping ground. +Gotta +For what? +to build one for Chelmsford Cathedral. +Mhm. +Really? +I'm off Chelmsford +Chelmsford? +Cathedral! +It's ghastly! +I gather it is. +And so is the bloody Bishop there! +Yeah but he's +Absolutely awful! +very nice. +And erm if you wanted to hear about Chelmsford Cathedral when Estelle who was a humorous and eighty something but still on the ball she'll tell you about the +Who? +Chelmsford Cathedral. +Estelle . +Who is that? +sister. +Oh sister! +Oh yes +And +I've met her, I've met her! +and erm ooh she's marvellous! +Yes. +She's be ,ei , eighty six and she lives alone and she's she's absolutely ge again, the Arch Deacon, it's the Arch Deacon there that's the trouble! +He got a bulldozer to bull , to bulldoze up the erm aisles and bulldoze the sanctuary and he's thrown away, God knows what! +I mean there are, there, there were erm all sorts of things there. +And his, and he got rid of the beautiful eagle erm you know, reading desk and he got rid of the Bishops's erm, chair, the Bishop's what do they call it? +Oh yes. +Throne? +The Bishop's throne! +And he's put all wrought iron one there! +Yeah. +Well I +Absolutely furious! +Sh she won't +I haven't been in +go near it! +Do you know what she does? +On is the erm erm, nearly next door is the old erm Quaker Chapel +Oh yes. +the most beautiful building and nobody can pull it down, but +Not the chapel Mollie? +No, +Not . +Meeting House. +Meeting House +Meeting House +yes. +And opposite her is where the erm Quakers meet now because they can't afford to run the chapel the erm Meeting +Meeting House. +Meeting House as a big one and they are getting fewer. +But she says I sometimes just walk across the road and go to the Meeting House at you know +Well I've got a theory +rather than the cathedral. +Yeah. +I've got a theory I have a feeling there's going to be a great revival of people with a Quakered mind way of thinking. +Yes +I I +Yes. +do agree. +But the trouble is Noel, in the meantime erm the Quakers have fallen apart because the Quakers have filled themselves up with sort of barefooted raw carrot eaters with beads +Well I know they have, yes I agree. +with the and haven't, but haven't ever read +That's right. +the bible +sort of Eastern religion type, meditation and thing and it's no good at all! +The old fashioned Quakers who were sikhs and everything. +Mm. +Now, what I have learnt at college this week which is rather interesting I think. +Well I think you'll be interested. +Erm in the bible in the new part, the new testament, there's a er an epistle of James. +Yes. +Mm. +Well I am told that that is the earliest thing at all. +I'd say that. +That is his erm actually a brother of Jesus in his family +Yes. +and so it's very much as he was thinking and it should be in the old testament really cos it was written you know, before Jesus +Mm. +That's right. +before the, before the crucifixion. +Erm, and it's been quickly Christianized with just two little lectures at the beginning of two chapters to Christianize so it was popped in for new testament and it's the nearest we can get to to teaching. +And of course, it's totally Jewish +Mm. +but I'd say it's th it's th Je , the Jewish teaching as Christ would have preached it +Mm. +you see and it's for all the family. +And there's, towards the end of the first chapter there's a bit all about erm erm er temptation and deliver us from evil kind of thing which is obviously rather from the, from the Lord's Prayer and yet it's, rather explained rather nicely and it, it's a lovely, lovely book! +It's only five +Do you know, I haven't ever read it. +I will do of course. +I've heard about that. +It's lovely! +It really is lovely! +And you really feel that +here is a +I shan't be able to walk home! +Really? +It seems to be +Mm. +everything sort of, in a nutshell, you don't need any of the rest +Oh well! +of the new +Mm. +testament, that's just quite enough, it's just a just th the Jewish thing filled out slightly and and and a little bit less rules and, you know,i it's very, very lovely! +Well apparently Chelms +I've never read it , but I shall. +We'll have a go, yes. +Well that's what Chelmsford's got you see, Chelmsford was was full of Quaker! +I mean, I can, I can erm quote the Quaker the families who still live there. +Yes. +Oh, all the important people were Quaker families when I lived there you see? +And the erm the . +The , I was gonna say them. +Oh the were appalling! +Ah yeah, the , the and I knew them. +Oh yes! +Yes. +and erm +What about the ? +They're still there apparently +The were +Oh yes, they're still there! +and the were the Norfolk more weren't they? +Mm mm? +Were the Norfolk more, were they? +I think they were. +Yes, I I mean I can't remember they and the and . +By the time +I can't remember now but they're at least five. +I was thinking of them the other night, well they er, five at least erm they were +th they were Quakers. +But er +,,and something else, I can't remember them. +I di , I always think of the , I met one or two of those. +They're +A when I go through +Oh Mrs , +off the train and still standing there with her name on her side. +Mm. +Yeah, that's right. +Mm. +Yeah. +Oh they're lovely people! +But er +They ran everything. +I'd been per wo ah I I feel that all this doctrine res religions are spoilt +That's what I said! +by doctrine. +Exactly! +Oh no! +Nobody believes +That's wrong! +any of it now! +I mean I think +No I know. +I know. +Yeah, it's terribly sad! +It's terribly sad! +I think it's . +Even the Bishop of Durham, I've just recently bought one of his books and I rather wish I hadn't, I'm not liking it much erm he's still much too orthodox really. +Is he? +You know he's still hanging on to +Oh he is ? +and trying to +Mm. +show +Well I mean you can't you +Mm. +you can't get fish from prize thinking fish +No. +can you? +No. +But I know they blamed him for that. +And he says you can because he says it's important for it to be a living thing that's got to change with the time. +Mm. +In all that way he's quite correct +Mm. +I think. +It's just that he hasn't, to me, changed enough, he's still stuck up with all these various things. +That really +Well I know let's face it, if he, if he was really convinced of the falsity of most it he +Mm. +couldn't be a conscience to obtain his seat could he? +Well he reckons you can say it in a different way. +You can say +Mm. +it entirely symbolically and spiritually and and +Mm. +things don't +Mm. +have to have happened in fact. +And that the stories were told to make a point and +Mm. +the trouble is, people have lost the point and kept the story! +Erm, you know, it's saying that +Well, the earliest man who used to think like this was Albert . +Yes, oh yes course it +Yeah. +was! +He wrote that marvellous book! +Oh +Well +a lovely book! +I've got about six of his books in there! +Well I had all of his books. +famous +No, er, you mean erm +I know quite a few . +The er +Christ, the Historic Jesus. +Yes. +With that famous last +That is his best book +chapter which is so lovely when +Yeah. +he sort of says well you still can spiritually meet Jesus even though you know, it's a rather lovely +the last chapter! +I say, he moves him the more you search for him historically +Yeah. +but there is a there's something hanging about still. +But in a funny way, perhaps there is. +I don't know. +I'm very very, very, very, tied up with it, I I I invariably turn relatively happy with it all. +I don't think one has to worry too much. +Been brought up so much, bought up a Christian +Yes, +you just find it difficult to to admit that one's rather you know But certainly that epistle of James, to me, was just marvellous! +Just everything! +I, I can't +Mm. +ever remember reading James, If I had, I've forgotten about it. +Mm. +But I shall read him tonight. +Well certainly, you'll enjoy it. +Oh +Did you go to +'s er ? +Yes. +Er I chose the reading. +Oh did you? +Oh +Yes. +how lovely! +Yeah. +Mm. +Mm. +Yep. +It +Erm +was very nicely done! +Louis was very upset cos she forgot to erm have anyone to take the names erm +Well +so I wrote down +as many as I could think of +Mm. +and erm and I asked Margaret , they had a better view where she was +Mm. +and she told a lot of other people and so I think we got a pretty comprehensive list actually. +Oh, we couldn't er we +No. +we couldn't go anyhow. +No. +It was very packed in there but I couldn't see a lot of anything. +But I was glad we couldn't because they asked me to read the lesson. +No it it's miserable! +Oh yeah. +It spoils everything doesn't it? +I'm glad to say +Mm. +and stuck to it. +I think there were some people there who didn't really know, but they maybe went because they'd got to a funeral. +Well it wasn't erm +Oh +it wasn't quite full enough. +I think that's awful don't you? +I I do, I do Mollie! +But, we're doing the right thing for +I +the wrong reason. +No this was probably, a relatively +That's +original idea. +that's the, that's the wrong thing to do! +Straightforward from there. +Just having a cremation +cos you're talked into doing something . +I was, it's not a very +And it's not very popular now. +after. +I must say, David worshipped rather well. +but steered round it, saying how he admired them +You said it. +you're obviously going to make his daily +up and down the village and and er +I said one or two things +You know, things you could say +That's quite +Erm +true. +and he did decide that I would like a cup of tea +I wanted to say +he had a great dedication. +and she said that if you couldn't go, or telling him. +And he was the only man in the British Legion who'd ever bought +That's right darling. +a drink. +I I can manage see me any time you want. +No, I did come . +He didn't like. +David +He didn't. +me and I usually always tell him off. +and I've met people there who I know I knew. +Yes, that's true. +And I +That's true. +Absolutely! +Oh sorry! +But I thought it wasn't +No, no, no, that's right. +No, when people are dead you must +See you bury them. +Now Mollie that's, I haven't given you a large helping but it's a ginger pudding. +I've been dying to make a good ginger pudding for years! +I like ginger pudding. +So wait and see if it's any good, I don't know. +There now Mollie, there's some cream. +Erm, sorry, some custard. +Sauce! +No I'll I +Sauce. +Oh sauce. +Erm, is a, is is sauce essential? +I should think on this. +It it +Okay. +moistens it. +It's an egg custard so it's, you know it's worthy +Oh well +of your attention. +I have, if you +Oh! +don't mind but I don't like +Heavens! +Come on have some ! +I don't like normal cream on everything. +And it's only small helpings because you can come for more, okay? +Normally I'm staged up on +the straw potato you see. +Smart girl! +Good potatoes! +Erm erm thank you. +They're good for you +Some of them don't like +I wish I liked them +Just plain boiled. +because erm I think they +don't like them really. +I think +What was that darling? +So as they're not, not just plain boiled and nothing else +Yes. +with them. +What I've done with these is er +Or +er +Boiled part were they? +Parboil them. +Yeah. +And +Mm. +then pop them into +That's loads +Yeah. +thank you. +and pop them in with the +and . +And I love them in their jackets! +But not down in +Also company, because I can't cope very easily with +No. +with my . +I love jacket potatoes, then I won't, with a jacket I don't like the jacket. +Oh I love the jacket! +Oh I love the jacket! +You see, I love the jacket but I can't cope because I can't cut it properly. +Yeah, I'm like that. +I'm always torn between conscience, eating a jacket or letting the birds enjoy it. +Yes. +The birds do you see. +Mm. +Don't they, they love it! +That's right. +Wish we'd got another robin, we haven't had one this year. +No I'm not, I haven't got a robin. +Oh I could +We haven't one that comes on our +No. +it's just +No. +at the last minute now. +Talking to my or something, I mean why should he die? +I mean, my robin still comes around and tha , that's my joy! +I always +Yes. +know when the robin's there. +We like them +I have every year. +to be there on the +Mm. +you know. +Cats are very bad for them aren't they? +Cats +Mm. +catch them easily. +Mm. +We haven't got any cats lately +I don't like cats. +round here at all. +Around our house. +I've got terrible cats! +One little nervous cat, it's such a nuisance to me ! +So is mine! +He comes over he does all his jobbies in my garden! +Mm. +And he scrapes up all the soil, you see this , well Lindsay hasn't got any soil, she's just got grass, so obviously it go , comes round! +Oh! +Can't you stop it? +Well I put some nice pretty flags on my flower bed cos it seems, well I just did it, you know and they're all, they're all +is that , tell me is that boy with the imitation chap outside? +Mm. +Mm mm. +No. +Well we +The Scot er we call him what do we call the Scot who lives along the way? +I call him, I call him Edgar. +Edgar! +We call him Edgar, is +I +that a first name? +Mm. +What? +Next door to the Post Office. +The door at the end cottage. +Yes I know. +No, no that isn't a girl, it's a boy! +No, no, but mine +is a girl, this one's +Mm. +a boy but the one next to me is a girl. +Why Mark's at her? +Really? +Mm. +Oh is it? +Mm. +Oh yes. +Perhaps he has boys there so it's not surprising you get them. +But that's nothing to do with this one nearby. +No, no, he's +No. +a boy. +Mm. +Mm. +I see. +Ah! +I've made a, one little mistake, I didn't tell you Edith! +Ah? +Erm I went in the mill to get some wood and noticed this young man and, I think I told you, I found him smoking in the, in the Porsche. +Mm! +Well er I I said to young er what's his name? +Da da +Do erm +Daniel who owns the mill ah, the young man you've got there working for you he said, you're wrong it's a girl! +Oh +Oh! +really! +We well was it to her that you said +It was a girl! +don't you dare come over +But I can't +here smoking? +Yes, don't you dare come over smoking! +Yes, yes , mm. +I can't tell the difference wha erm +No. +erm, I mean very often the girl's hair is shorter than the boys isn't it? +Mm. +Mm. +She, in fact did look at me rather palsely once or twice. +Oh! +Mm. +Well John thinks everything German is that +Mhm. +much superior to everything British! +Oh gosh! +So +the blasted erm +Mm. +Germans in the factory now you see! +Mm. +Mm. +I don't think they're any better workers than ours +Mm. +on the whole. +No. +Oh no! +No, I don't think they are. +Not for +And our +a minute! +our people need the work! +I said that, as a matter of fact, absolutely so! +Yeah. +You try telling John that! +I'm surprised they get work permits cos America won't give them work permits will they? +People have a terrible job +Oh it's common knowledge you see. +Well now +Of course! +Mm. +Now Damen's erm erm erm daughter Damen who was waiting to go to Holland is it Holland? +Yes, Amsterdam I think somewhere there. +And erm on a job er on on an English railway starting with starting a factory out there and they are going to manage it she's worried stiff you see because she says now er, Germany and Holland are starting to move in the recession and once they're there if the recession comes they'll tack up her husband immediately +Quite rightly! +and and they said they, the erm and anybody there and and chuck out the English workers because the Ho , the erm Dutch don't want English workers you see! +And yet, we have them over here. +Yep. +We have them over here and they say +Absolutely! +exchange +We had a letter a few +weeks ago, at Christmas time from erm the er, what is it? +Spain, Portuguese +Yes. +er +Right. +family that we know and th , they're, one of their sons is fo erm in London I suppose erm adapt here and he's rather upset because she is now coming over to Britain to work for Telecom! +Oh really! +Oh gosh! +Now why? +Oh dear! +I don't see it! +And I don't think they +Well why can't some of our yobbos go away and get jobs elsewhere! +Mm. +Yes exactly! +Mm. +All our +Mm. +few unemployables. +Ha, mm. +Mm. +Really how I this this +It's ridiculous really! +this funny creature out of Mars but she's not very +nice if she's female! +Wilf wants to , Wilf wants to know her . +I trust you won't be any more churlish, telling her not to smoke in the wood shop! +Course I shan't tell her tha , I, course I shall tell her if I find her smoking in or near the wood +Yes! +shop! +I think so! +She'll get even stronger! +Mm! +Yes! +Yes! +! +Mm! +Yeah! +Mm. +Oh no but no course it i i it's er I I Mr discipline. +Oh yes! +Yes. +That's not quite +Right. +the same. +John's doing jolly well isn't he? +Oh yes! +He is +He's just got +Well you're very lucky cos so, you might have easily of had nobody in the family +Oh absolutely! +it would take on. +Well +Yes! +he might usually. +Mm. +He's just got Chelmsford Cathedral. +Oh yeah! +Getting a new order +Mm. +for Lincoln's Inn. +Really? +Mm. +And St. John's College, Cambridge. +Yes. +St. John's College +Mm. +Cambridge. +Yeah. +Could I tempt somebody? +A tiny bit, that's lovely thank you. +A slither. +Absolutely delicious! +Well it's got real ginger in it, I think that makes +Oh nice! +it so good doesn't +Mm. +it? +Very nice! +Do you know this was on Food and Drink last week on er, on the television. +Oh well, how so when what did they do,it was going to be I didn't +That's right. +quite +Mm. +. +Jolly good! +And help yourself to the, I'm sad to say that that has curdled since I put it in the jug, do you want me to change it? +Do you ever cheat and put a little of cornflour +It's not gonna fit in though. +Oh it has though, that usually stops +Mm. +it. +And I thought I'd caught it. +Yes. +And I had caught it, it was all over +. +No it will, no +Tell me, what kind of ginger ? +What fresh ginger? +Er no, it's erm a flavouring beginning with R +It's a flavouring is it? +is the +The erm +er ground ginger of course. +Mm. +And then the +And then, this stem isn't it? +And this is the +stem ginger. +Stem ginger, yes. +Oh yes! +This is lovely! +Will you have a soupcon more? +Not for me. +Stem gin in the +in syrup. +In syrup. +Oh yes. +Yes. +The whenever I want to erm I want to buy ginger dry ginger to grate +Do you want some more? +you know. +Pardon? +Do you want some more? +But I usually take mine +No thanks, that was nice +with ginger rather than the ginger and +And it's not +What do you use then? +The fresh ginger. +No, no, the dry ginger! +Oh the dry ginger +This is my +ugh! +dry ginger. +Like rocks isn't it? +Mm. +What? +How can you do that? +It's li , it's like rocks isn't it? +Well you well you halve +Well +it you see and I mean +And you put it on that +I mean I was thinking of making gingerbread +Mm! +you grate the ginger +Mm! +and as much there +That's the , you grate it very fine +used to it , yeah. +Yes but, you see when I try to buy some I think the frozen fish is, shop in Woodbridge is silly, damn silly place anyway! +And erm they offered me a green ginger you see +Mm! +Mm. +Well now, what could you +Which isn't what you wanted. +do with green ginger? +You put it into casseroles and things or into the fruit +Is it for Chinese food +Yes I know but do you eat it or do you just put it in to flavour it? +I think mostly flavour it, I I I suppose you can eat it but +Well it's a waste of money! +And you put it in Chinese food! +But you can eat it. +Oh yes, but you put cloves in and you don't eat them, but they flavour it. +to do a ginger, I I've eaten ginger of that kind +Oh you eat it. +beat it i in Chinese dishes. +Because I got some by mistake cos it, yes I know it in Chinese dishes but I don't quite know what they do with it. +Mm. +It is good piece I hope ? +Well they were, they were qui , they were as big as that. +Mm. +I chucked it out in the end. +If I went to put it in, I was gonna say and I went to put it in er cos it dries off doesn't it? +Mm. +If I were to put it in er stewed apples or something I wouldn't eat the actual ginger but in a casserole, it's nice. +No, but there's no point in putting it in in erm apples because you grate your dried +Mm. +with them you see. +Mm. +In there. +Or you can put erm ginger +I don't +in a syrup +Yes. +you can do that. +Yes. +Yeah I like that. +I've got a lot of, quite of lot of dry ginger, dried ginger. +Erm a little bit more just a touch more Mollie? +Not for me, no thank you. +None? +I can remember the first time I ever +came across dry ginger one of my school girlfriends was giving me a recipe, which, for which one er fo for erm ginger beer +Mm. +for Christmas, and it was delicious the way her mother made it so she started it with me writing it down, see, and she told me the ingredients and then she said you brews the ginger I thought +brews the ginger? +Fancy her saying it! +She was my grammar school friend, you see. +Mm. +You brews the ginger, so I thought well I'm blessed! +And of course it was ages before I knew she meant bruise. +Mm. +Once I started to make it I realized,o what it was. +, yes. +B R U I S E. +Yeah. +Mm. +But it sounded very +Mm. +peculiar! +I +I must say! +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mother used to make wonderful ginger beer and we +Ooh! +were bought up on it! +It's a wine merchants now. +Yeah +Yeah +it's a +An off-licence. +Oh! +Not Oddbins, it's the other one. +No, the other one. +Oh yeah, well I've never even been there before. +Look it up again then. +Yeah, there they are, those houses there, you know where them new shops are? +Yeah. +Seconds Out and all that? +Yeah. +Mm. +That, that was o , there's Brill there, see. +Oh yeah,Brill +We used to go up there, then their house there and th , and that pub was here. +Oh what the +Exchange. +Exchange. +Wheatsheaf? +And tha the Wheatsheaf, they've knocked that down. +Yeah, it's not there. +Dorothy Perkins is there. +Yeah. +And that's Oddbins now innit? +Yeah, there. +Can't get out of my place can you ? +How the west was won ! +Wore cap ,wore caps ! +Didn't they? +Wear pa , caps and big moustaches when they grew up. +Well everybody wore caps in them days didn't they? +Yeah. +We even put a boater on. +Yeah, he has, a straw boater. +Must of been a butcher or a baker. +Or a candlestick makers ! +Or a candlestick maker! +Don't keep farting! +Red Lion. +Near my mum's,. +Yep. +That looks like a canal along there dunnit? +Hey? +Looks like a canal on there. +Yeah, I thought it was. +No. +What is it? +It's a we wa wet road innit? +Yeah. +Yeah, it says here, on a sunny day +The Avon and Wokingham Canal. +No, that's not even water is it? +It's just wet tarmac. +Yeah, it's a wet tarmac. +Wet . +That's the bit they've knocked down to the put the Smiths and that, the other side of it, this bit. +Mhm. +Oh there's the King's Head. +Yeah. +Oh, so there's two together then? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Next door to one another. +there's the Red Lion there and the King's Head here. +Well it used to be a coaching inn didn't it? +The coaches used to go through there. +The same as the roads weren't it? +Mm. +And the bus. +Yeah, well th the roads actually,yo +The coaches used to +ta , you actually walk through the middle bit don't you? +No. +Yeah but yo yo you do there don't you? +The coach. +You walk down the side of the +Yeah. +pub there? +But that used to be it, cos you go through that ar +I'll just close that door for a minute, because my +Yeah. +goodness the wind! +That is er, yeah. +Mm! +Hello again! +Hello John. +Er yes please? +Yes please. +Er two slices of ham please? +right. +One twenty nine please. +And his bit of fat please, for the birds? +If you may? +Anything else? +Yes please. +What about er, this steak for braising John? +Yeah, that's alright, yeah. +It's nice, is it? +Yeah. +A pound and a half please? +Thank you. +Do you want it cut up? +Er, no I shall use it probably in +In ? +se , serving pieces. +Yeah. +That's lovely beef that you know? +Yeah, it's lovely beef that. +It looks nice. +You'll be alright with that. +Pound, five ounces, do you want a wee bit more? +Er, erm can I see it? +You can have a little bit more, here are. +I think that's yes, just a wee bit more to bring it er +Yeah, just a bit +only a little bit John. +Thank you. +Yeah, that's it then. +Pound and +Thank you. +a half. +Alright? +Yes. +Anything else? +That's all just now thank you. +Thank you. +That's four seventy five then altogether. +Thank you. +And you've put the price on the eggs, I expect? +Yeah , that's on the box +Lovely! +see , yep! +Thank you. +Yeah. +There you go. +Thank you very much. +Alright +Thank you! +thank you very much. +Can I have two chicken breasts please? +Bye bye then ! +Bye bye John! +Yeah. +Butter please thank +Mam? +you? +Thank you, and I think the only other thing I need is erm you haven't a small caster sugar have you? +No, only that big +Just the one we , er, I'll take that one then +Mhm. +thank you. +Thank you. +And unless I'm being stupid I think that's really all I need this morning. +Mm. +I've got veg. +One eighty two. +Thank you. +Say it again for me, Pam? +One eighty two. +Thank you. +I haven't got the two is that alri , are you alright for change? +Yes, yes. +Thank you. +Thanks very much. +Thank you. +Thanks very much. +Lovely, thank you. +I'm glad you're keeping your door shut because really +It's a bitter wind today +Oh! +isn't it? +Terrific wind today, yes it is! +Yes, it is! +Bye bye just now! +Thank you, bye bye! +Sorry! +Hello Stanley ! +Good morning ! +It's me! +Hello. +Noel didn't come? +No he didn't. +He's got some writing he's got to get on +Oh yes. +with down there. +Erm yes, oh and you you haven't got your nice fire on yet? +It smoked like the devil! +Oh! +Come through here. +Ah! +Oh oh, that's better! +That's nice! +So you're sitting in here at the moment are you Stanley? +Yes. +Yes, why not? +Why not? +Why not, indeed! +It is the bitterest morning that I've +Oh it is bitter! +Thanks, it's lovely! +It is bitter. +Oh that's a beauty! +Isn't it? +And what is the fi , is the kitchen erm chimney needing to be swept or something then? +Er, no the dining room. +Er, I mean the dining room, sorry! +Yes , yes, oh yes I've well you know the fires on that I had in all the winter I'm going to get on that today. +I know it wants er, sweeping. +Yes. +Yes. +It's smoking. +Yes. +I da , I I I tried to but I'd smoke the place out! +Aha. +Oh that's a pity because that's the room that you +Aye +use a lot isn't it? +Oh yes! +Aha. +But because this in the centre is the warmest room cos there only one door here you see. +Yes. +That's true. +There's five in that other. +Yes it's lovely! +My goodness it's erm we were all saying yesterday it was summer! +Noel cut the grass yesterday can you believe it? +And I did +He did? +Yes. +And I weeded the front garden, some of it. +Erm and now look at it today! +It's really cold! +Ye , yesterday afternoon, as a matter of fact, I walked up to the gate and I come back and I just walked across the lawn and I I felt the sun. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes , felt the sun. +But after one that turned cold again don't it? +It does! +It does! +Oh it's ! +Yes. +And er, it was funny yesterday morning the birds in the village were singing just in the way they do in the spri , in the spring, you know, first light. +Yeah, that's right. +And I thought gosh, if they don't know what's +Well they've got another month +before spring in. +That's true. +Well that's true! +Yes. +But you see you take it for granted. +Tell me Stanley erm, I brought your medicine from the doctor +Yes. +er, was that because you've not been well this week or just is it a ,ro routine replacement or something? +Well no, that's erm er, water . +Yes, but I, it's not because you've not been well? +No! +No, no, no, no +Oh that's fine. +no, no, no, no i , no it's a i i it's old trouble. +Yes I know. +I know. +It's old trouble. +I think +I know. +he's more interested in women than anything else! +Oh! +It's sad isn't it? +It really is, it's sad! +I don't know, he come, he said to me er we we well he come over, you see when I come home from hospital he sa , he had to report to come and see me he was a long while before he did come! +But er, he he hopped on one day and er had a talk with him and so on and took my temperature and pulse and that, this, that and other, he said well I'll call again he said, when I'm by, but he never did! +Mm. +He never called! +Mm. +I don't think he +I had to ring! +Yes. +And I said to him, I said well I hope I don't mind er me ringing the doctor, well he said no that's what we're here for. +But he said, I've got three hours of paperwork! +Well that's nothing to do with it! +Absolutely! +Absolutely! +Nothing to do with it! +I mean, it doesn't stop him from going shooting and fishing does it? +Oh no! +No, no, that's the thing. +I think he's a little bit envious because er, I took those meadows back, you see. +Possibly , yes. +Cos he used to go shooting there and and they went in there and they shouldn't of done because Michael told them I'd taken meadows back and he sa , he said when Tony told them, they, they'd been there shooting he said well they're, they're out of bounds! +Mm. +Mm. +He said I told them that. +Mm. +Mm. +But they took advantage, the boys did and they don't care at all! +Ye , yes that's right, mm. +They take liberties . +Yes, they do , they do, it's a shame! +I think that a little bit apprehensive on things like that, and course when he saw Tony asked whether ga , whether he could go and Tony said no, I'm sorry Doc but that he said I've got my ponies and things there and I don't want people shooting there! +Of course not! +No. +There's them foals from , round the back, they don't want them. +Yes. +Aha. +I'm sorry to keep on. +But I'm sure you go down there yourself. +Yes. +Yes, that's +Oh yes! +true +But they,th th th they just walk on, they don't have to pay anything +No. +! +No! +No ! +Walk over you! +Well they just think they're in a privileged position Stanley! +Yes! +And the only privilege they have is of looking after us isn't it? +Yeah, that's right! +Yes, that's right! +Really! +Yes! +And getting well +And what you +paid for it! +what you've got, they're entitled to! +Absolutely! +That's right ! +That's nice of them! +Yes, absolutely ! +Well that's right innit? +Yes. +Oh dear oh dear! +Oh heck! +Well, so there you are and I told them, he he said that he wanted erm a urine sample you see and so of course when the nurse come after he'd gone, later and I kept waiting and I thought to myself well I want to know the result! +Yes. +Jackie said, well ring them,sh he should know something about it! +Yes. +And that don't take a week, week to test anything like that! +It shouldn't do, no. +When it's gone to hospital. +And, I rang, I better ask him you see, and of course, who was the lady in the office? +Oh she's called Jean. +She's very nice! +Who is it? +Jean, her name. +Jean? +I don't know her other name. +She is a very nice person. +A very nice person. +Yes. +She is. +Polite and such like. +That's right. +Yes! +That's right. +Yes, I I think to, well what a nice person you are to, to talk to! +Yes. +Nice personality I shouldn't +Very nice! +reckon. +And I got that, well and she sa ,she said er, when I asked them fo for some er tablets he said alright, can you send down for them? +I said yes, he said alright I'll have them ready. +They'll be ready. +And same as those, she said, they'll be ready any time after lunch, so I +Mm. +said thank you very much. +Mm. +And er +Mm. +but erm I said to her over there, I said er, well excuse me I said er da er er a doctor , I, I said took a urine test for me and I said I want to know that I, if he knew the results? +She said, well I'll look up well he never told her and he never told me! +No. +No. +And so she looked up, she said, that is right she said, alright, and er he prescribed some more water pills. +Well why didn't he get on with it? +People complain that these tests seem to take longer than they need to. +Well I think so, yeah! +Whether the hold up is at the hospital or in the erm surgery I +Yes! +honestly don't know! +But it does seem to take a while. +Oh dear oh dear! +Oh what have I done? +What? +Oh! +Oh it's just a +You can't be +Yes I can Stanley it's just a +it's just an outdated bill. +Is it? +That's all, came out of my +Well +pocket. +the thing is, after all's said and done if er,i i if there's a little pain I get it, not him! +Absolutely! +So he can hang on can't he? +That's right! +There's a no, I don't think he's too obliged as he should be! +No, he's not a, I don't think he's as a as some +They tell me that is a, is a, a lot better value. +He is wonderful! +They +He +say he's a nice little fellow! +My gosh, he's wonderful! +Everybody wants him you know. +Yes. +I should think his list is absolutely full by now. +Yes, of course. +Erm, the first time I met him was when he was doing a very tricky stitching job, I took Mollie up +Yes. +because she'd cut her leg +Yes. +and er I took her up there and her si , skin is like tissue paper +Yes. +I don't know how that man managed to get the two edges to meet but he did a wonderful job on it! +And he was so nice to her when he was doing it. +Yes, he's a nice person of +You're very nice! +then Mrs erm er,, you know, who had the mu +Oh yes! +she think a lot of him! +Lucky girl! +Yeah. +Those people who live there in, up in Framlingham are very lucky! +Ha? +Yes. +And those people who live near enough +Yes. +you see, to the main surgery. +Well of course when is out, they they give you the the 's number +That's right. +in fact, one time when they was out they give me a number, I go , and I got ! +Oh yes! +Yes. +Well and I had er er erm erm what's the name? +Ha! +What do you call them,? +A tummy upset? +No! +Skin! +Oh, not erm shingles? +Shingles, I had a touch +Oh! +of shingles. +Gosh! +Mm. +And I said to him, he said what's the matter? +And I told him, I said I've got shingles so I said well I got them he said and red round the stomach. +Ha, ha, ha, he said! +I thought to myself, not so much of the ha, ha, ha! +That's what he's li , er, wasn't a way to tell nobody was it? +No, it wasn't. +You see, that's another one. +He didn't feel it did he? +No, he didn't feel, absolutely +No! +Stanley! +No, that's not +I thought to myself, who's this then? +That's something I don't sa , not so matter that I could have told him! +Yes. +That isn't a way to get through to people! +No it isn't! +No it's not. +Cos after all, we don't go private but we're paying! +Tha abs +And I've payed for years and years for myself and four other people besides! +Mm. +Mm. +No, some +Yes. +of them get too snooty in a way. +Yes , they get, they're a bit less committed. +I think the +And, as you say with , well if he can go fishing and shooting, I don't know about that, they take priority! +Yes. +Yes, that's true. +Mhm. +There's another very nice one there, he's the latest to have come erm +. +What in +oh and he's just +at Framlingham? +Yes. +And he's very young, he's i , I met him twice, when I was with people who were dying +Yes. +and erm in fact, yes, but both of just had died and we sent for the doctor and it's +Aha. +it was he who came and erm he was absolutely marvellous! +I thought his manner was just right. +Makes all the difference doesn't it? +Oh yes! +It does make a lot of +I mean +difference, yes +a person like that can help another person to get well can't they? +They can! +They can. +I mean,th there is something to be said for the manner towards you isn't there? +Ooh yes! +Yes. +Yes! +That's true. +I mean, when you look forward to seeing the doctor and one thing and another, and saying, have a conversation with them, that's a different story innit? +That's true. +And buck you up a bit. +Oh absolutely! +That's something you +Absolutely! +Yes! +if you think to yourself well if I can have a a quarter of an hour's chat with him, that'd be worth something. +That's right. +That's true. +Yes. +I don't know why some of them get like that, well of course they shouldn't be doctors any how. +And tha tha th th a doctor should have a nice personality! +He should. +I think in some cases, Stanley, not only in the me , medical profession the more people are paid the less committed they seem to be to the job! +Yes, they do, they get independent! +Yes. +They begin to feel that the job is there so that they can earn a living, rather than that they are doing the job itself! +That's right , yes. +Yes. +Mm. +Th th er theirselves, they take priority not the patient! +That's what I feel. +Yes. +Yes. +I'm sorry about it because you know, how I feel about the medical profession and the nursing +Yes. +profession. +Yes. +Ye , I mean I'm passionately keen! +But erm I I think some of them let us down a bit. +Mm. +Yes. +Well there you are, I don't know whether it's wrong. +Course, they drop onto you any old time if they come but if they can't +Oh yes, if they want to come it doesn't matter if it's convenient to you or not does it ! +Not a bit of it! +Not a bit of it! +Oh no +That's true. +not a bit of it. +That's true. +Well I mean after all they want er an appointment! +Yes. +But you don't get no appointment! +That's right, you don't. +Oh no! +You see +That's true. +you take second place, definitely! +Yes. +I'm sorry +Well +it is true with some +I mean, after all +of them. +you're, we're their customers! +Ah, that's right! +That's their living innit? +That's right. +Withou , they need er er anyone like ourselves, well, er er they'd have nothing to do! +That's right. +Absolutely! +And of course they're not so hard pressed as people are in these big cities! +Oh no! +You know, they have a nicer time of it here altogether don't they? +Oh undoubtedly! +Undoubtedly! +Yes. +They do. +Because, I mean, there you are, look, I mean for argument's sake, now , well they have e e every Tuesday off or some Monday or Tuesday off don't he? +Mhm. +He does. +The same as that Doctor used to come down and er +Oh yes! +for him. +Mm. +He was quite a nice fellow! +Mm. +So far. +Yes, he's in Debenham now. +Debenham, yes. +Mm. +He lived on the green didn't he,? +He did. +Yes. +Yes. +Do he live at Debenham now? +Er, I think he does live at Debenham. +Yes. +He , yeah. +I know he operates from there anyway. +Yeah. +Right. +Mm. +Yes. +But then I mean come and saw me once, you see, when I wasn't there like that and he he tested from top to bottom, he said well ar ar after we sit and talked, and like he said well I better give you the once over, I said th er, certainly. +And so he he tested and such like and he shook his head and he said well I don't know, I can't find anything wrong with you. +No. +And he said you're a better man than I am! +Really? +Yeah. +Aha. +Yes. +And that's what said, and that's what +That's what the hospital said! +Yes! +Remember? +Yes! +And that is what er Doctor said! +Yes. +And ! +Yes. +I've had four doctors tell me I'm a better man than them! +Well you wouldn't be ninety five if you were weakling would you Stanley? +No I don't suppose so. +I don't suppose so. +Poor old Doctor , he said you'll never wear your heart out. +Really? +He said, whereas an ordinary man live till they're seventy you'll live till you're ninety! +Fancy! +He knew, you see. +See an +Yes. +and and when er erm come over here the last time er, I I told him a a that he say, Doctor , you see, told what he said, he is a clever old boy weren't he? +Yes. +Well he was. +said that! +said that, yes, yes. +Yes. +Aha. +And they don't often speak like that of one another. +No, they don't often refer to one another do they? +No they don't, that's right. +You see it's not thought to be the thing +That's right. +to do. +That's right. +Ah! +Yes. +Oh he was a, he was a lovely man, wasn't he, Doctor ? +Oh aye, I liked him, yeah. +George liked him. +Did he? +Yes, yes, quite good. +Yes. +Yes, well of course they +Yes, he ought used to be, he was in Scotland he wasn't bro , brought George . +Did he? +Oh yes, yes +Yes. +yes. +Oh he was a real gentleman. +Yes , no problem like that. +Wonderful! +Well George got on with a lot of people like that but of course, he was a Mason you see. +Oh, was he? +He is that, but that's why he kept them he used to go down there with him, he got a big photograph of Captain like that er, in his room here and so on. +Aha. +Well a man of nearly seventy years! +Is that so? +Yeah. +My God! +They had they had a few minutes silence for him when he died down Framlingham. +Did they? +Yes, they +Did they? +Because er er er Len a Mason you see. +Is he? +Yes. +And he drives in London er er er for meeting! +Does he really? +They're very keen aren't they? +Yes! +Aha. +Yes, David +Some +what's-a-name, er er said to me, have you ever thought about? +I said I'm past that my dear! +I'm past that . +Noel's not keen on them, he's been asked to become a Mason sometimes +Yes, right. +but he just, it's not, somehow it's hi , not his sort of thing. +No well erm, I did ask, old Chris spoke to me once in the park and then there's and things like that, cos a certain amount of secrecy in the , things like that and erm I I sort of turned it down and he even er er er well while and and Len that said Stanley did you ever think about joining the Masons? +Well I said I'm too old for that now. +Mhm. +Mm. +Well you've +So they +had plenty to do to fill your time without belonging to +Well yes, after all's +that sort of thing. +said and done, mm, after all's said and done course I well I said there's good, bad, and indifferent everything cos I know some Masons who are blinking great rogues, you know! +Mm. +Mm. +Yes! +Mm. +Old George used to be an old he was always keen to be executor for anybody you know. +Really? +Oh yes, and he could get executor, he was executor for one poor old lady old Mrs used to live on the causeway er er er, the first little house you know where the th th , er you're coming this way on the causeway there's The Elms, ain't they? +That's right. +And then on, at the back, there's a little cottage near the start there she used to live in that little cottage. +Oh yes! +Well old Jack er, he di used to do the post round and he lived in the next cottage +Mm. +they were two thick people. +And the old lady when he was out like that, before and he used to go to Framlingham carrying the bags and such like, and then deliver, come back poor old boy! +From the +He had a little shop not much, you know just a few things and such like, in those days. +Mhm. +Well, she used to sort of keep shop for him, she was deaf as a post! +Really? +Yeah, she was deaf as a po ! +But however, she us , poor old soul, she did her best well Jackie's mother used to go see her +Mhm. +and of course when old Jack died er, Jack he left things to her you see +Oh yes. +and that, which is natural. +That was the time when there was a first portable radios come out +Oh! +Yes. +er a Phillips I think, one, one of those portable ones, that was rather unique. +And there was a draw tickets for it and old Jack won it!. +Old Jack had won it! +Well, old was doing the the executorship for them because he poked his nose into everything! +Mhm. +He used to live up at The Dial. +And poor old Sarah said, well how much did she owe him you see? +Well he said he'd take the radio. +Oh good gracious! +So he took the radio instead of, part payment you see, that was the first time. +Well then, cos he was doing executor for poor old soul poor old and er Ivy used to go and see her pretty frequently, she said do come and see me Mrs ? +Cos she got a little bit lonely. +Mm. +But of course,th , I'd been living at The Haven then, next to the butcher's shop. +Go and see her. +So one day she said to her Mrs , you haven't got a car have you? +Ivy said no we haven't, she said you will have one day. +Really? +Mhm. +If anything happened to me. +Really? +Aha. +Judge, old was executor he went there one day and he got her to sign her will +Goodness! +Goodness! +in favour of him! +Oh well that's awful Stanley! +That's a Mason! +Yes, oh that's awful! +Mm. +When Ivy went he took clerk with them down at as a witness. +When Ivy went to see her she said oh Mrs Mr came to see me yesterday afternoon he brought another gentleman with him, a nice gentleman so I she said I think they were taking the census, they got me to sign a paper. +Oh dear! +Oh! +And she'd signed her own will! +Oh! +Dear oh dear! +And so when she died, he swept the deck! +Oh, that is dreadful! +That's a Mason! +Mm. +Mm. +That's dreadful! +Yeah, that's a Mason! +Mm. +Now, there's another one. +Old Mrs old lady who was in Framlingham, the dentist? +No, I don't reme , no, I don't remember +Well in any case +that name. +She, she come from Walthamstow. +And then when her +Ah yeah. +her husband died she'd picked out a bit of land all this and I borrowed this and one thing and another, so well they never found a penny! +Mhm. +If we hadn't got the money to pay for cash on delivery I never want it! +No. +I done without! +Mhm. +Well we kept on like that and er er people like that we were packing up wholesale so erm I've lost myself a little bit now. +No, you were talking about er about your cousin Mr . +Oh yes, that's +Yes. +right! +Yes, I was talking about he used to come over here a lot. +Mm. +Come over here and spent his silver wedding just to come here and his golden wedding! +Mhm. +He loved to come here take a slog and go down the meadows. +Oh yes! +That was his type. +Aha. +He he he er loved that! +Mhm. +And he loved a horse better than he would a Rolls Royce! +Really? +Yes +Mm mm. +he was that type of person. +Yes. +Well I knew someone in and I thought to myself I, perhaps he might lend me a hand? +I did touch them one time you see but of course there was nothing doing he wan me! +Some years afterwards walking down here after he'd been his for his silver wedding, golden wedding and so on er, coming down that dri drift down from the back he looked at me he said I don't know boy! +I got a nice bit of money and such like I don't know who to leave it to. +I said, well I don't want it . +I'd got on my feet you see +Yes, that's right. +Yes. +Mhm. +That was good. +He never forgot that! +Is that so? +On two occasions he , repeated me that like that. +Mm mm. +He used to come over here. +He went off and told his gardener, Wilfred he said Stanley won't have any. +That was a surprise to him! +Mm. +Good on you! +But I hadn't got much but I'd got on my feet. +That's right, and you didn't need anybody else's! +And I thought to myself, keep it boy! +Yes. +Yes. +I told him . +Yes. +Yes. +But otherwise said I could have it, he would of left that to me. +Mhm. +Mhm. +Cos he always over here! +Yes. +Always over here. +Yes. +But that was the biggest shock he ever had! +That you didn't want it. +That was. +And +Mhm. +thought to myself, yes in a sense I could of done with that so far but I thought, no, I'll stick up and +Yes your independence +stand on my own legs! +So I told +means a lot. +him. +Ha. +I told him. +Yes. +And he +Yes. +and Wilfred told me himself when I went up there! +Really? +Aha. +Yes , he told me what said to him. +Yes. +It all comes round. +Oh yes! +And it's done you no harm +It always comes round! +has it Stanley? +Pardon? +It's done you no harm to stand on your own feet has it? +No, it hasn't! +No. +No, it +No. +hasn't. +No. +That's the way. +If only people would be a bit more like that sometimes today. +What I wa , what I want to get I've saved up an ,an an an an earned it and +Yes. +Lily and I like that and we bought the self and we felt independent. +That's right. +And I've always was a little bit independent. +Yes. +Oh it's the best way to be Stanley. +Yes! +It's the best way to be. +Aha. +And a fellow said to me about two ye , two to three years ago I expect it was two telegraph people up that pole out an just outside of my gate and he's still there and I walk along the gate and he turned round to me he say you're a lucky man! +I said what do you mean,yo , me a lucky man? +Well he said, living in a nice place like this. +You call it luck? +I said, when I earned a pound I spent nineteen and sixpence, not a guinea like some of you! +Right . +And he never said no more. +That's right. +No. +Ah, they caught them. +That's right. +Two people come now doing the water, the the stop cap and one fellow looked across coo he said a big , I said I'll have a run a over the left I said, now you wouldn't would you? +Cos I don't mind, I lo I thi , I'm not afraid of work. +No. +No. +Jolly good! +They're the sort of people you get. +That's right! +Absolutely! +Yes. +I I don't know, by the way, there ar , your gate is open and there is a er, red van out there. +I opened it. +They do, oh! +Th , oh for me did you? +Yes. +Ah, that's sweet of you! +So when I go you'd like me to shut it probably would you? +Well i i if you don't mind? +If not +I can shut it. +Oh no! +Well it doesn't take me a minute. +I just wondered whether it was because the erm men with the red van at the gate there +Oh no no the +are doing something here. +No,no! +Cos I +They're working are they? +I knew you were coming and so I went and opened the gate. +Ah, so you did. +That's sweet of you! +I thought +That's kind! +Stanley I do not +You know +erm yeah? +Pardon? +That take all sorts to make a world you know. +Oh yes , indeed it does! +Oh it +Yep. +does! +And we've got them too, Stanley! +We've got them! +A lot of people +I think we've got all sorts! +now like this. +Well George come the other day, now he's a working fellow! +Mm. +He's got a little sense! +Mm. +He earned a lot of money and he save it, he then bought a British car. +Mm, yes. +He paid for it! +Mm. +That's the sor he say, nobody need go short today! +That's true. +Mm. +Other people what do they do? +They take the money they go and buy videos, they buy records, they go and bu ba for fo football and all si +Mhm. +they spend the money in the wrong direction! +There's no return! +No. +That's right Stanley. +And then they +It's +say they're short! +Yes. +That's what you've been saying all the time this sort of bank lending's been going on haven't you? +Yes! +Mm. +Yes! +It's madness really! +Ooh yes! +And then +Mhm. +th a th th I mean th , all these repossessed houses they're lived far beyond their end zone! +Yes , they do. +They're ordinary working people, they wanna be independent gentlemen! +That's right. +And the banks and building societies have encouraged them! +They have, I'm afraid, they have! +Pushed the money onto them! +And now of course they're paying the price too because +Course! +they're in a mess! +It's their own fault! +Absolutely! +As you make your bed you lie on it! +That's right. +That's as simple as that! +After all said and done, people live +It is really. +far beyond their income and when they get the money they spend it in the wrong direction +That's right, because they haven't +haven't they? +had to work so hard for it perhaps, you see. +No! +They've borrowed +You see +it instead. +you see go to a football match, or buying some er electrical appliance appeal to them far more than paying the rent! +Yes, that's right. +But a lot of people +They don't pay the rent, no, ah ra , the tax payers have to make that up! +That's true in many cases that's true. +They've got swelled heads, people have! +Yes , they have Stanley. +It's very foolish! +I wonder if anybody would know that what happened here ah er er two or three year ago was a up till re recently they know very well that couldn't last! +Couldn't last, could it? +Couldn't last! +I know, +It wasn't reality. +went and borrowed an eighty thousand pound and bought a house +That's right. +Mhm. +well, he had to scrape to pay the rent at all! +Then, on the other hand he had to go short indoors, well then when the I er th th ,th er the interest went up, cos he ! +They don't work out how much they're paying for their money +No, they don't! +do they? +No. +They go to silly people like +It is really! +that! +Is really. +And the first thing they do th they go to the wo er er bo the boss of the firm where they work for and want more money! +That's right. +They can't manage. +We couldn't do that! +What do you +Mhm. +think we are! +Yes . +They, and and they they've they've on the ba ba had their unions run the blessed country! +Well they did. +Certainly, they did. +I sa +And they will again, Stanley! +I said +If we get the wrong people in. +that Jackie will tell you the same, I told her mother anything from thirty to forty years ago I said, that don't matter some toss what political power they get in power you'll find the unions will run the country +Yes. +the way they're going on! +Yes. +They demand things! +Yes. +If, for argument's sake, they want fifty pound, they demand sixty! +That's right. +That's right. +And they know they'll get something. +That's right. +Well +Mhm. +all that money that they keep demanding from the er th wa th wa the firms and such like that ought to have been ploughed back into the firm! +That's right. +That's right Stanley. +If they robbed the firm, they're robbing themselves! +Yes, and then they are. +Anthony said years ago, when the rail ma men went on strike why do it? +You'll only bring misery and distress on your own country! +Absolutely! +And that's as true today! +Yes. +It is! +But they can't see it! +All of them around they kill the goose that laid the golden egg. +Well that's the trouble, they do! +Yes. +Yes, but then +They do. +these firms are gonna pack up! +Exactly! +Exactly, and then they lose the lot then don't they? +there's only one thought for th sa for them and that's for theirse +I got erm Patsy coming in for a bite of lunch +Oh yes. +erm because we didn't see her last week. +Yes. +Well we +And we +better get the sweeper sometimes then. +Oh you need to Stanley won't you? +Because er I can't bear to think of you without this room with that lovely fire in. +Well, there you are. +There's always some, look at my birds! +Oh yes, the birds are there still aren't they? +Here's some fat for them. +That's your medicine Stanley. +Just a minute. +Come on sweetheart. +Aren't they marvellous! +They come straight away don't they? +Yeah. +They're wonderful! +That's your medicine there your eggs there. +The instructions on them I suppose? +Sorry? +The instructions on it are +Oh +they? +Oh, it says, Stanley well you can read it I'm sure. +Please repeat the water test when you've finished the tablets. +Please what? +Repeat the water test +Oh yeah. +when you've finished the tablets. +Repeat? +Yes. +Ah! +That's +Yes. +the word I wanted. +After you've taken those. +Righto! +I expect they'll tell you how many to take. +I sho , I suppose so. +Can I just check? +I'm sure they will. +Yes, you look , you look at them. +I'm sure they will Stanley. +You look at them. +Whoops! +Yes, that one's two tablets twice a day and that's for the water test. +I see. +Alright? +So I gotta take them both? +What +Er +are they for? +bu , you take that to , er two tablets twice a day that's it. +Two tablets twice a day. +So that's probably +Yes, well what are these? +morning and evening. +They are perhaps new ones, I don't know. +Are they? +I dunno, I'll take them but +Yes. +Two twice a day. +Yes. +And then this is for your water test. +Right. +And er, what +When those are finished. +When those are finished? +Yes. +That's just to put the water in to put your urine in you see. +Let me see it before, ooh I mustn't open it because it'll be ste +Oh no! +it'll be sterile, you see. +It is, it's +Ooh he want, he want that for a test? +He wants that,yo , he wants you to put some water in that for a test, some of your water in that +That's right. +Fine. +for a test +after I've used them? +After you've used those. +That's alright. +And Stanley, we don't open that in the meantime because +No, no! +it's sterile. +Yes. +And so it must be for your test, you see? +Yes , quite. +Okay? +So after I've finished those lot twice a day +Yes. +Well they're the +Two twice a day. +Two twice a day. +Yes. +Well that's four a day. +It is. +Then er, put some urine in there +Yes. +and let him have it. +That's right! +That's it. +Well I can send it down with anybody. +That's right. +Oh yes, well er er, yes you can because you need to send it down when it's fresh. +Oh yes! +Er, so if nobody's going down give me a ring and I'll come and get it. +Thank you. +Alright? +Thank you. +So erm +Yes. +your fat, what +I might get the old lady to go down for me. +Well er, only if she's going. +If she's going. +Yes. +That's right. +If she's going. +There's the fat Stanley. +How much do you want? +It's one twenty nine please. +One twenty did you say? +Er, one twenty nine Stanley. +Please. +Twenty +If you've got a ten, I've got a one. +I got, I've got one . +Twenty five +Ah. +six, seven eight, nine. +Good! +That's clever. +That's right. +You almost always have change don't you? +Pardon? +Almost always have the right change. +Yes. +Yes. +Try to. +Yes. +Try to. +Try to. +There. +Thank you very much. +You're very welcome Stanley. +And I'll see you again next week, but if you need anything in the meantime give me a ring will you? +I will, thank you very much. +Do that dear. +Thank you. +And, try to keep warm and keep out of this wind. +Yes, that's right. +Bye bye dear! +That's right. +And I'll shut the gate. +Alright. +Okay, so you tha , you don't need to come out at all. +There we are. +Oh the wind is still cold! +It's keen! +It's keen, indeed! +Yes it is. +Yes. +Right. +Bye bye then Stanley! +Bye bye! +Bye bye! +erm I think it can't be bad for you because you do quite a lot of the same exercise as you'd do in proper aerobics +Yes. +but you're in the water the whole time. +I don't even know what proper aerobics are anyhow. +Oh you just keep moving the whole time. +Running on the spot and waving your arms about +Just seem to keep moving all the time without even running on the spot. +Yeah well this is, this is you know it's very difficult to run in the water +I know it is. +cos it keeps getting round your feet and sort of +making you drop over. +Yeah. +And I suppose developing the muscles that keep you from dropping over it's pro can't be, can't be a bad thing. +I suppose it can't, no. +I +And then you do other exercises like lying on your back, putting your feet your from the knees downwards over the edge of the pool and then trying to do sit ups. +Good heavens! +I'm too old for any of that. +But Noel, isn't exercise against resistance is supposed to have some special benefit isn't it? +Well I'm doing that all the time, I'm doing it with you my love. +Oh come off it. +Erm I don't know, I, I, I, I I just feel that this is that sort of exercise where er +Ooh sorry. +it only lasts an hour, it's not going to do any harm +No I'm sure it isn't. +it's erm a good thing to be doing. +Because swimming's +I think something that does do harm is jogging. +Yeah well +Well yes that's a beast. +I, I did a little jog this morning with the dogs cos it was too cold to walk. +Oh +Ah yes. +And I've got another one this afternoon I think. +Have you ever been in the sauna at er Woodbridge? +No I haven't. +Er er no I haven't either. +Er I one, went into one at Iceland that was it was lovely. +I've been in a sauna in London I belong to a health club there. +Mm. +I used to play squash. +Mm. +That's a violent one isn't it, squash? +Yes. +I, I can't think that really violent exercise is a good thing generally is it? +Something that's more measured +Oh I don't think I don't think it hurts when you're young, I think when you're older you should only do it if you've done warming up first. +I think so too probably, and you've been used to it. +That let's us off, isn't it nice? +I think the warming up exercises in themselves are a good thing though +Mm. +even if you don't do anything after +Mm. +after warming up. +The class I go to on Monday evenings erm we do warming up exercises and I'd be quite happy if they just stayed warming up exercises for the whole hour. +Yes. +Have you got someone properly qualified taking them? +Yes, she's very good. +Mm. +I went to a sauna in Iceland +Mm? +and then was able to straight, in, in the hotel it was +Yes. +straight up in the lift to my bedroom and it was lovely you know, yeah in the hot, in the swimming pa pool +Mm. +or through the shower then in the swimming pool then back again and when I'd finished with it I went straight upstairs to my room and I went to sleep straight away, it was lovely. +I was waiting for him to say he went out and rolled in the snow because that's the proper end isn't it? +Mm and you should beat yourself with twigs as well. +I'm not I don't know really about that. +Oh you should definitely do that, I mean +That borders on the nasty I think. +They had a there was a sort of electric burner in the place as a whole +Mm. +where they kept on throwing on +Water to +water with some erm sort of fir smelling in it. +Oh yes, it made steam. +Mm. +Fine mm. +That's it. +I should apologize for canned soup, but I spent so long talking to Stanley this morning +Mm? +you know sometimes you can just tell he wants you to talk to him, and erm so I er couldn't make a proper soup, sorry, but this is +I think +good actually I think. +Yes, which is it? +Is it Heinz? +Heinz tomato +I I made some stock the other day +Mhm. +and I put some of it in the freezer +Yes, ideal. +in erm sort of bowls. +What did you use for your stock? +Some bones. +And? +Oh some onions and +Carrot? +carrot, yes. +Celery? +That gives a lovely flavour. +I don't think I had any celery, I had, I had put in whatever I had in the house and sort of various herbs and spices and things. +Did you put the bones in the stock before or after the dogs had had them? +During? +During +The dogs went into it instead. +Think what a luscious stock the dogs would make. +No they wouldn't. +Mhm. +Erm +All that hair. +Yuk. +erm no what happened was that he gave me some bones that were far too big for the dogs. +So I made stock out of those. +Where they gorgeous marrow bones? +That +Yes. +Oh yes, they make wonderful stock don't they? +Mm. +Well normally when he gives marrow bones I ask him to chop them up a bit smaller +Mm. +but he gave them to me practically +Mm. +He's an obliging chap isn't he? +Mm. +I always feel that when he's giving,, because he gives them to one, doesn't charge for any +Mm? +er anything for the bones, one can hardly say erm give that another whack across the knuckle because +He wouldn't +the big knuckle has so much locked inside +He wouldn't mind. +it doesn't it? +I do. +Do you? +Yes. +I should really. +He wouldn't mind. +I ought to have courage. +He charges high enough prices for his other things. +Yes he, you're right, mhm. +Erm when you do your stock do you first of all roast the bone? +No but that is erm er a counsel of perfection or something isn't it? +It it's a method anyway. +Mm. +Erm do you? +No. +Well I didn't because I just couldn't be bothered to put the oven on to get as hot as that for such short period of time. +What in fact does it do? +Oh I should think it erm melts out the marrow and does all sorts of quite good things for it. +It probably gives it a good colour too. +It gives it colour erm I'm sure because of the, of the fact that they're roasted. +There's one thing that erm I sometimes do to give it colour, is once I've taken off the outside skin of the onion, the very outside +Mm? +I put the next one in. +Mm? +Does that, that gives it colour does it? +I read that somewhere, mm. +Mm. +But roasting them, I wouldn't like to get them with any sort of burnt taste. +Well I don't think it would give a burnt taste but I think, I think it probably could do quite a lot of good for it. +Mm. +Er I just read it in er I was reading Delia. +Mm, yes. +Oh yes she's good. +And she tells you to do that does she? +Yes. +It's the matter of the moment really, you just fling them into a roasting tin don't you and put it in the oven? +And that's alright if you've got a Rayburn but otherwise you have to start +Yes, start from scratch. +heating it up, mm. +Now when I was away staying with my cousins +Mm. +he is a G P in High Wycombe and he's a fundholder. +Oh good, tell me about it. +Well he's also been on hundreds of committees because they were sort of one of the early ones to be done +Mm. +and they have a battery of sort of board members drawn from here there and everywhere, including a fair quantity of redundanted service people. +Oh. +They had an S A S officer running, running them +Is that to get you ri to get rid of the patients he didn't want ? +No, it was to get rid of the Health Service. +He, he, he said that at one point this chap had used the phrase that well that they were going for controlled destabilization from the Health Service. +Controlled what? +Destabilization. +Oh. +The S A S man was? +Mm. +Why? +That's what the aim of the people doing it was. +You mean the official government line? +Mm or that's what they er or maybe that was his interpretation of it anyway this was a phrase that came out in, in the actual meetings. +And then he told me a hilarious story about the way in which the chairman of the committee, I'm not sure quite what particular branch in the world he'd come from but he was looking at the figures, I suppose it was an accountant looking at the, the figures saying now why is it that the amount spent on district nurses has gone up? +So he was told petrol has gone up. +He said yes but you now have your health centre and the district nurses work from there. +So erm they all looked at him, you know, the district nurses so John said to this man what there are some of our patients who are housebound +Yes. +and some of them as well as being housebound, maybe aren't very well and are bedbound +Mm +and the district nurses visit them in their homes. +He had to explain it to this man. +Good god. +Where did he fund this committee from one has to ask immediately. +he's not given his committee it's wished on him. +The local authority +the local authority creates the committee. +But I, I had no idea that he then had to be that, being given his own funding, he then had to be organized by a committee. +Oh that's outrageous. +Local council +I think it must have been some sort of +Yeah. +thing like that, I don't know. +Well it doesn't seem sensible, I thought it was the G Ps getting control. +I mean this is what's going to happen to the detriment of the health service right through +Yes. +administration by people who don't know what it's all about. +That's right. +what has happened to a lot of these hospitals hasn't it? +Well it seems to be still going on. +What do you make of this idea of building a new hospital at Norwich with fewer beds? +I can't understand it because if they've got fewer beds why don't they, they just hide a few of the beds they've got already? +Absolutely. +Mm why do they have to have a green field site and start again? +Is it because they're going to incorporate a lot of high tech treatments? +I think so, yes. +Mm and, you see erm it is a fact that they need fewer hospital beds nowadays because +Mm. +the, the hospital stays are dramatically shorter than they were. +Mm yes but we're coming up to a time when er the quantity of old people is going to be rather high than before because we're all healthier. +Mm. +Mm. +They'll have something special for them like concentration camps. +I know. +Th they've got those in Ipswich already haven't they? +That's what they've made the old Anglesey Road hospital into. +Is that so? +Mm something like that. +I wonder how it really goes. +I wonder +I don't know. +Erm well it's +Oh this is disappointing because I thought that with G P who'll knows what he requires and what his patients require was going to have erm a pretty er erm +Well you can't leave a G P to spend the money like he likes, you've got to have a committee for it. +You think about it. +You, you know? +Ah! +Ah. +Yes anyway have you heard about how they do the costing? +Will was telling me about it, how how how they +Oh do tell me because I +how they cost erm something like a tonsillectomy. +Mm. +And how do they? +Well apparently they count the procedures that are involved in doing it +Mm? +erm they have a price per procedure +Yes? +and they tot it up. +Mm. +But they haven't got it quantified to such a point where they can actually distinguish a tonsillectomy which might have a lot of procedures but actually takes about half a minute with er other things that are, you know, much much more complicated and the cost of tonsillectomies is unreasonably high compared with erm, you know, with +Yes. +Really? +Mm. +They haven't, they haven't got the pricing right. +And I can understand them not having the pricing right, I don't think they've spent long enough working out what the prices of things are. +They've dearly gone on for years not knowing, let alone tonsillectomies, what +Yes, they didn't +these wretched erm +they didn't know +transplants costs. +they didn't know what they cost but equally being asked to budget against not knowing what things cost +Mm mm +is er equally stupid. +Yes it is. +Because er er ya absol +But then, but then the er the whole thing gets knocked for six anyway because of general unpredictableness of, of, of illness. +Well it does I suppose. +It does. +You can you can apply statistics to it a bit but it's very unlikely the statis st statistics and what really happens will always add up in fact. +They, they've suddenly had a few outbreaks of polio haven't they? +Oh have they? +Mm. +I didn't hear that. +I say. +Mhm. +Yep. +They've had the odd child who hasn't been erm whatnotted and some various +Ah! +various men seem to have caught it from changing their nappies. +Yes! +I did hear of that. +I'm sorry I wasn't relating it to erm to polio. +Mm. +Erm +Well you know, you've only got to get maybe smallpox back again and that will knock all their predictions for six. +Erm +They say they've wiped smallpox off the face of the earth. +Yes they do you see. +That's the doubtful one isn't it, because it's gone. +It's supposed to be completely gone. +Yeah but do they, do they inoculate children against it at all? +No I don't think no I don't think we have smallpox inoculation er of, of children do we? +Don't know we I mean we used to +Because they say it's it's, it's gone completely. +Erm sorry love we need a fork for that. +Perhaps the meat fork from the shop would do nicely. +No er er erm it's all in the cutting, of course it is very no that's pork and Noel daren't touch it so I've got two slices so that you and I could have one. +That's very nice, thank you. +And Noel will have the other. +Erm +I haven't had any pork for ages. +it's so new to them that they're bothering to cost it, but how did we go on in the older days? +I'm trying to think. +Did we know anything about what our operations were costing? +I can't remember. +Well if y you if if you go to a BUPA hospital you go pa you pay a sort of erm, you know, related type of +Yes a figure that's been around that anyway, yes. +Mm? +Ya. +But I don't know +I'm just having that to start with I think . +erm I do I don't, I mean I don't know how accurate it is or whether it's sort of, you know, a set of figures they decided to put on. +It wouldn't relate to what it costs +to keep to keep to keep their profits going. +Yes, that's right. +Well it probably does relate +That's what it that'll be it. +it probably does relate pretty well. +I bet it doesn't relate to an actual operation in a general hospital because you've got so many people wanting their rake off in a private one surely? +I mean haven't you? +Yes. +Yes. +That erm +Yes their profit +Ya that's right. +rather tired bit fed up with private medicine at the moment. +Oh because of Richard? +I'm convinced that +Richard +you know Richard er er ? +Mm? +Had he gone to a National Health hospital +Mm. +with the request to have that back thing done for him +Mhm. +I'm convinced that at the age of seventy eight people do they would have said don't bother. +Yes I'm sure they would have done. +Ya. +And er would have erm perceived that he wasn't greatly hampered by it, but once you've got a surgeon who is going to get a fat fee he did say to him are you sure you want this done +Mm. +but Richard was sure he wanted it done and nothing came between him and that intention. +And you see he's, it's going to finish him. +He's not going to get better. +No. +Erm but did he tol tell you that the surgeon asked him if he really wanted it done? +Oh yes it's known that he did. +Mm? +He said er you're sure because it was quite a thought, for a man his age. +Mm. +But I think a surgeon in a National Health would have said look here I do not recommend this. +Yeah but then the first thing he would have done would have been got up and gone off and got it done privately. +That is the danger. +He would. +So er the end was I suppose always connectable. +Ya. +If that's, if that's what private will do for you +Mm. +Mm. +I mean, I think, I hadn't realized that they would make different decisions on medical grounds. +Mm they will, it's more permissive if you're in the private sector. +I'm sure of that. +It doesn't come so hea heavily loaded with advice against things. +What, because it's all too good for the moneybags? +Yes it's, it's I suppose human nature to want to pursue your craft wherever you can. +Mm. +But erm but it's been a very bad thing for him. +Yes. +But you see they've had computers in hospitals now for years +Mm? +and are, are employing and paying people to work them but they don't ever seem to come to any let's say reportable conclusion about the cost of operations. +I think if we knew what those heart and lung transplants cost, people would be up in arms that the National Health Service is being expected to fund that. +Mm. +Well y they're a little bit like nuclear electricity in terms of erm the expensive end aren't they? +Mm. +Mm. +Yes I suppose that's so. +I wish the government could really tellingly er do down these dreadful lies and scandal erm scaremongering things that the Labour opposition is putting forward. +I mean they don't honestly care two hoots about people, if they can talk about the dreadful state the, the care of old people is in and all the rest of it and that it's going to get worse, frightening old people. +That's not caring for the community at all. +That's just erm politicking isn't it? +Yes. +I can think of nothing worse than Kinnock coming into power. +Oh! +Imagine how people like erm erm Helmut Kohl and +Cook? +Not Cook +Oh. +because he's in his own party, I mean Cook yes well he's a snidey little thing, I'm talking about the erm ambassadors and the politicians, the ministers who would be +Oh yes, oh lord yes. +you know, opposing him. +Yes. +They'd just, they'd just run over him absolutely, whilst he was grinning. +One can't see him in an ambassadorial role at all can one? +No. +It may not come to it. +But this recession is quite a problem. +Oh it must be. +It's a worldwide thing though. +Mm. +Yes but the trouble about it is that the English are so insular that lots of them don't, don't realize it or won't believe it. +No. +That's true. +They, they regard that as an excuse. +Mm. +Have some more chutney, it was given to us by our German daughter-in-law. +Oh +So it will be perfect. +Did she make it herself? +She did. +Goodness. +It was our Christmas present wasn't it? +I forget what it was, was it her present? +Mm. +Well has it been nice not having to go to France? +Mm. +Except of having to go to London instead. +Mm I couldn't tell how many people would agree with you about that one that London could be at least a bit preferable to Paris. +Well Helen's a bit like you she, she sort of perks up when she starts to smell the petrol fumes +Mm! +Ya. +And she said she had a lovely time. +She went to an exhibition, she went for a browsing sort of shop. +She said the shops were empty. +Mm. +Shopping is much more comfortable now. +Mm. +I'd better go and try and do some some time. +Mm. +There's a lovely suit in at the moment in the sale in what's that place called? +? +Near +Mhm. +it's really lovely. +Smart, one could go to town or anywhere in it. +Mm. +Why is it you don't buy it then? +Well because it's darkish in colour and I'd rather promised myself that if I have anything new now it'll be of a brighter colour. +Oh well go and buy the thing before somebody else does, go up this afternoon. +Dearest I'm saying it's a dark colour. +Yes. +Yeah but you could wear it with, you could wear bright things with it. +Mm. +Shush, don't +push me, I don't need pushing. +No no really I, I, I've resolved, it's charcoal grey you see +It sounds very smart Enid. +Very smart. +We're going to have Princess Diana. +My size too. +Is it? +Mm. +It's got your name written on it. +Mm. +Why don't you go up and buy the thing? +No. +I'll phone her and ask her if she's got it in red. +You can pinch a bit more of my er +Like the telephone woman. +Mm? +Like the telephone woman. +Oh er isn't she oh isn't she super? +I don't like the advertisements they're doing for the telephone now though. +Which are they? +Oh they have this silly man who picks up the telephone in a he's er got a chef's hat on and he says Giovanni's and then it was, it turns out to be one of his old friends so he lapses into sort of Glaswegian. +Oh no! +I haven't heard that one. +Oh but Maureen erm er what's she called? +Maureen Lipman, yes +Lipman, Lipman. +is very good on those isn't she? +Mm. +She's the right sort. +Erm the thing that I feel I couldn't go to see her in is erm Hello Joyce. +Yes, that Joyce Grenfell thing? +Mm. +A bit of it was on the television. +Yes, I saw that bit and it wasn't good +No. +because sh Joyce Grenfell was such a lady, it came through. +And and wh and er Maureen Lipman is much more earthy +Mm. +and that came through and it was no good. +If you've seen Joyce Grenfell you, you couldn't +Funny thing to put +No. +a Jewess to to try to represent Joyce Grenfell anyhow isn't it? +Yes. +Yes in a way, except she well you could do, it could be done. +Did you feel that about her on television? +Well I felt, I just didn't know what it was but it lacked the sort of charm that it had before. +Mm. +Completely. +Almost thought when she, when it was when it was erm er mentioned in the first place that she was going to do it +Mhm. +I almost thought ooh you know I'd love to write and say oh don't, don't. +Joyce Grenfell was such a lady. +You couldn't say that to her cos she didn't it would be insulting but in fact, that's the big difference. +Mm. +Talking of things like this, you know er some people have postcards with their name on in black, across the top +Oh yes they do. +Yes that's right, they do. +Mm. +Well er all sorts of funny people like have them like erm Iris has, has them. +Oh does she? +And does Jane . +Yes. +Yes she has them +Mm. +my aunt has them, my father used to have them. +Mm. +and so I've always associated them with sort of erm, you know, what people had before all those sticky labels came +Mm yes. +People who did things properly? +Mm. +Mm. +Well when I was in the London office one chap who is an east end Jew made good, his name is Ralph , erm suddenly gasped and said gosh isn't this wonderful? +So I sort of was called to look at it, and I said oh yes, all the people I know who have got those are over seventy. +And was it one of his own? +No no, someone had sent it to him. +Somebody had sent to him. +And he, he thought that it was such a touch of class about it. +Mm. +Mm. +And I expect he's gone away to get them printed now +Oh probably. +because I s I said, I said +How funny . +I said well they're just what people had before the sticky labels. +Yes. +And he dragged out his sticky labels which, which had got blue stripes on them +No? +Yes, I thought +No +that wasn't terribly elegant but anyway his blue labels had got, these little sticky labels had got blue stripes on them +top and bottom. +Oh how funny. +Erm and so I guess he's gone away to get some made. +Mm +And I said and of course to do it really properly, you also have envelopes so that if you want to you can stick, stick the card in an envelope that will +Yes. +fit it. +Cos that's what we used to have. +Mm. +Oh yes it wouldn't go naked through the post would it? +Well you can yes you can't +Mm +you know, you could use it for quick notes +Mm. +to drop on people's doorsteps +Yes. +or, or +Which is useful. +Yes. +Or if you just want to sort of signify a, a quick thank you to someone. +Mm yes. +Or a quick come +Yes I hadn't thought about that. +Mm mm +they're they are very useful, I've often thought of having some made +Mm. +because, in fact every time I get one from someone else I always think why haven't I gone and got some of those yet? +I know why, because you're not seventy. +That's right, give me another twenty years. +We had those envelopes er and the cards for our concerts. +Well they were probably erm invitation to a concert. +Yeah but they were all fixed up to go into the same envelope sort of thing. +Mm. +Yes +Oh yes you can't , can't use them though. +No. +Got too much detail of where we lived and erm you know that it was a concert. +But but these you know, you had your telephone number and you know, just had a whole statement of everything about you. +Mm mm. +And +And all you needed was the brief message that you had to send. +Yes. +And it saved you hav it saved you having to do the preliminary thing of saying dear whoever you are +Of course, that's right. +That's right. +which was sometimes quite a difficult thing to do. +Well on a personal card you're not supposed to put dear anybody are you so +I know but +that does make it difficult. +No it made it very easy. +You know, especially when perhaps you were having a mixed sort of meeting +Mm. +wh I remember that when I was at home it was a mixed sort of meeting in which some of the people from the village were coming who you didn't really know but they had to be asked +Mm. +Mm. +Yes. +well you I mean you, you could cover er cover the whole thing couldn't you? +Mm mm. +Without saying dear so and so. +Yes. +Mm. +And without really having to sign it. +You could just put your initial in the corner. +Of course. +Mm that's right it +Are they called gentle +Yes +cards? +Something like that, yes . +safe distance cards. +I must go and get some made. +indeed. +Oh gosh. +Have you used any of these erm things called Post It? +Oh yes they, they use them a lot at work. +Th but they're useful? +What are they? +Well er they're er like your autumn leaves that you used to leave on everybody's benches +Oh did I? +erm but they've got a sticky bit on them +Oh I know, yes. +and so you, you'd have stuck it on the bench you see erm and it comes off anything without making a mark on +Oh yes we've got a little pack of them in London I think on the, by the telephone. +Yes. +That's right, some teeny weeny ones? +Yes. +Mm Folly gave them to you? +They they they used to call them my autumn leaves er +erm Patsy and more +Oh have some more +an another piece of ham, do +have some more ham or you're getting some nice cheese in a minute. +Oh cheese. +are we having some cheese? +Mm. +Well I think I'll wait for some cheese +Mm. +Ye yes I used to leave notes +I'm I'm tr I'm tr I'm trying not to overeat you see? +Yes. +Right. +Please yourself. +I'm trying to avoid being noticed if I overeat. +You're trying to, you're trying to avoid being starved all the time aren't you darling? +You're allowed to have some water aren't you ? +No no no no no +It's difficult for you but he's trying to avoid being starved. +Will that plate do? +It'll be fine. +dish you out a larger one. +No no it will be absolutely fine, thank you. +Okay. +Well help yourself, I can recommend cheese. +Well autumn leave is the best way out of, of of er communicating. +If I were to turn to a man on a bench +Mm. +and say to him so and so and so and so he'd always answer back and say I want to do it this way +Mhm. +and er the time was wasted, but you give an autumn leaf a little note saying what it, what you, what you wanted done there wasn't much chance he could argue. +Yes I heard a very interesting conversation on the way down here in that programme Just a Minute +Oh +you know the one I mean? +I hate it but I'll tell you why in a minute. +Mm mm. +Go on. +Well I don't like it very much but it has this very interesting discussion as to whether a fax was cheaper or more expensive than the telephone +Mm? +and the biggest pro for a fax that I can think of is that you can send the message and that's that, there's no risk of it dribbling on into, into doubt +Mm +As it would on the telephone, yes. +Yes. +How right. +Mm. +So I thought that was quite interesting to think +Mm and they can't argue with a fax. +think about. +I hate that programme because I like I tend to come and listen to the content of what they're saying +Mm. +and they're only saying it for the sake of keeping going. +Yes +And then er so it's never, it's never worth serious attention is it? +Well just occasionally it is. +Sometimes you do get something interesting. +And and and and then +and then they get interrupted and you wish, you know, you wish they hadn't. +That's it, you see that's full of frustration +Yes it's +for me +I don't like it, I, I prefer things like the news quiz +Mm. +or even that one about that game with Mornington Crescent in it. +Mornington Crescent? +Yes. +I've heard that phrase used but I don't know what it's for. +Oh well it's, it's where they say say a sequence of underground station names or or locations +Oh +in London in, in a sort of clever way that makes it sound as though there's some terrific good reasoning for it +Oh. +and they just say it totally randomly and the last one just the first pers person who says Mornington Crescent is the winner but they've made a great big sort of fiction as to how why, when it is suitable to say Mornington Crescent +You have to come to it +Yes. +I, yes I see. +Th there's no logic to it at all but they play it on. +How extraordinary, I've not heard that one. +Mhm. +It's a programme where they also sing the songs of one tune wh to another tune. +Oh you mean the programme where they do that? +Mm. +Erm well that's not that's not My Music is it? +No. +No. +Erm +That's erm +can't remember what it's called. +Mm it's Jazz With Humphrey Littleton. +Oh. +I, I'm, I'm not with you on that one because erm I'm sure I'm vaguely at the back of my mind I think I know what it is, I have heard of it I mean +Mm. +or heard it +Mm. +but I can't bring it to mind, it won't come to the front as it were. +Well I can't remember what it's called. +Erm yes apart from My Music I can't think of one. +I heard a very amusing thing on the radio this morning +Mm? +came in half way through it, at least half way erm but it was so obviously the voice of erm Freud, Clement Freud +Mm. +talking and he was telling about a visit he had paid to China for a whole week +Mm. +and how he'd seen prison and er they'd said they hadn't any prisons but he found one and erm hospitals and all that sort of thing and at the end of the week's visit erm one of the very high ups, whom he named and I've forgotten the name of him, I think I'll just use that, thank you erm sent for h he, he was brought before him as it were and the man said to him are there any questions er at the end of your week that you want to ask and he said well perhaps there is one he said erm Winston Churchill was here erm a month or two, a few months ago +Mm. +and he also, he like me stayed in the and he named the hotel in +Mm. +Peking he said can you tell me why his room was larger than mine +Mm. +and his room had three windows erm and I, mine only had two +Mm. +he said in spite of the fact that I've been in parliament for longer than he has, which surprised me cos I wouldn't have thought so this is the young Winston Churchill of course so the Chinese man said to him erm oh well the reason for that was that he had a famous grandfather +and so Clement Freud said, not to him but now on this programme this morning, that's the first time I've ever been de-grandfathered +That was rather nice wasn't it? +Presumably his grandfather was Sigmund Freud was it? +Yes. +Mm. +The Chinese didn't know. +No I shouldn't think the Chinese have got much time for that sort of approach to life. +I don't think they have either. +I don't think they'd have been impressed even if he'd told them +No. +Erm did you see that th they're, they're going to look for some sort of gene called the Churchill factor? +No. +Well they want to find out why it is that someone who smoked so much and drank so much +Mm! +had to live so long. +Yes. +Well it's obvious. +It's the same sort of factor that allows anybody who smokes a lot to not get cancer and not get bronchitis and live, also live a long time. +There are plenty of them. +Well that's true. +I it's just a question of, you know, something in your make-up that is inoculating you and other people have a weakness. +Well that's right. +Other people go down with it. +You can't really I should think find a gene surely that's +There must be something though Enid. +Mm there must be. +His father was a very weak man wasn't he? +Yes. +His mother was a character but +She was not nice. +Not nice but she had a strong character. +Mm. +But his +This reminds me +Mm? +might I just say this darling cos I've just remembered, I'll forget senile you see? +Erm we have a video of the last programme of the Churchill series +Mm? +erm which a friend in London very kindly made for us because we were out with her, her mother +Mm. +and couldn't see it +Mm. +and erm Joan's video has gone wrong in some way +Really? +Yes, she doesn't know how to work it to begin with but she +was working +she was working on that, of course we don't know a thing about it, erm and the make, the erm the handyman chap came along and took a part away, it was faulty +Mm. +so we can't see it. +Do you want to come and see it on mine? +I was going, I'm getting round to that you see aren't I? +Mhm. +Erm we feel rather badly about not returning it to this person who made it for us +Mm? +because it's now a fortnight since we had it I think +Mm. +Well come and see it on mine. +May we do that? +Mm, sure. +But when, that's not going to disturb you? +Don't know. +Erm let's think. +Tomorrow morning? +No. +I'm taking, I'm going to London tomorrow afternoon, I +Afternoon. +I, no I've only just thought of it, I'd take it with me if, if we'd seen it. +Mm. +I've got to go out this evening. +Yes. +Well tomorrow, what happens to you tomorrow? +Is it your lazy day when you +Yes. +Mm well we won't see it tom we'll keep it another week keep it another week I'll get my diary. +I'll get my diary, can't talk without a diary. +Okay. +We can't do it next Saturday because erm we've got two people, a Scotsman married to a Chinese +Yes. +coming to spend Saturday. +Mm. +So that's a dead day for next week. +And might be able to do it before the weekend perhaps +Yeah think so, I'm just when does Noel get back from London? +Erm hoping Monday evening. +He's going to see Mr . +He has a little bit of a scratchiness in one of his eyes +Mm? +erm and phoned up and sort of semi made an appointment, not exactly +Mhm. +erm because Mr was abroad and the girl said well I mean come in on Monday, when he'll be back +Mm. +and he may be able to see you then. +Yeah. +So come Monday morning, Sunday night in fact, Noel said gosh I can this is, this seems to have gone light. +We've got some ointment from the doctor which didn't work last time he put it out +Mm. +and seems to have worked this time. +So he said I can't go along and bother a busy man when it's feeling much better. +Mm. +So erm he didn't go +Mm. +but he got a phone call on the Tuesday from Mr 's secretary to say oh Mr would like to see you anyway because er he feels it may have erm it was a letter, I'm sorry, which came +Mm. +in case it has any bearing on any difficulty you might have in the future so he's to go down +So he's got an appointment? +Mm Monday morning. +And then he's going to call at Sotherby's. +Do you know Sotherby's are the most dilettante people you've ever come across, they really are. +Mm. +With the exception of the one erm section leader that he deals with normally. +At the beginning of this week a girl phoned up and said that erm the chap he normally deals with is away +Mm. +but there's an organ is Sussex they want him to look at and erm so he said well send me a photograph er they've got a photograph of it you see +Mm. +send the photograph and that gives me an idea whether it's worth going to look at it at all. +That I think was about Tuesday. +Mhm. +It never came. +This is what they do, they phone up asking +They could have they could have even faxed it. +Mm well we haven't got a fax. +Oh no. +But the thing is, what they do tend to do is, they suddenly find themselves in a panic because they've behaved like this about it and the person at the other end is shouting when are you coming to see this organ +Mm. +I was talking about how dilatory S er Sotherby's are. +Oh. +Yes but I know the thing dear no +Well of course they're not, they're not in a businesslike business are they? +No not really, no. +And I wonder if it seems to be that they prefer you come out of the upper drawer than come up with your brilliant A levels or whatever. +They do, yes. +Mm. +Exactly that. +Mm. +They are erm a very, you know one, one of the last bastions where those sort of people can find a refuge. +Yes. +I suppose so. +I find them +You know,l like, like the Duke of Kent's daughter. +Mm. +Does she work there? +She works in art galleries or, or some art gallery +Or some art gallery. +Yeah. +Mm. +And the man she's marrying is an art gallery. +So he is. +That's right. +So he is. +there has to be space for these people though somehow I always feel that they cream it all the same. +Mm I think they do cream it, yes. +Oh that's +Well du during next week is what we think Noel. +Pardon? +During next week erm I'm just trying to think, I've got very heavy days on Monday and Tuesday so +Wednesday's a possibility then in that case. +Er let's shall, can we leave it open? +Mhm, certainly. +And then we'll arrange it with you, mm? +Yes. +Erm I don't know whether I think post rather erm er I see I'm not going to London after erm after this week +Ooh. +Oh you're going to be making some of your special coffee are you love? +I am indeed. +Ooh er +How's your barn proceeding? +Don't know, it doesn't seem to be doing anything and what the was that during the week when was in residence one night the dogs barked and he went out to see what was happening and there was a young man who worked in it this was in the pitch dark, was up there taking some of his stuff away. +Oh. +Oh. +So I wonder. +Has he run out of cash? +Well, I wouldn't be surprised. +Why would he need to do it in the dark? +Well if for instance it's approaching receivership +Oh oh oh +you'd want to sort of, you know +Mm. +Oh yes. +get your stuff and you'd want it not to be obvious that you'd got your stuff. +Oh I see, yes. +But that's, that's only a guess though +I don't know. +you mean the young man who actually owns it or the man who's employed working on it? +Well I don't know who exactly owns it +Yes. +but the man who has been doing the work there who said he owned it +Oh I know, oh. +But the, the lady who was erm what's her name daughter, she used to live in the erm erm live in the terraced house erm +What Jo ? +Mrs what? +you mean? +No er the people before them. +The ? +What? +The ? +yes, Ann 's daughter +Mhm. +who's got the farm up at +Mhm. +and there's a there's a farm for sale opposite there, you never saw such a wreck in all your life. +Oh it is a wreck. +Yes. +Yes it really is. +Yes. +I think the vogue is dying isn't it? +Yes. +Erm they're being much stricter about what you can do to them. +Erm. +And how you do it perhaps. +And how you do it and everything, yes. +I think that erm across the road from me he's just mucked around. +Yes. +He hasn't done things in the sort of, you know, the preferred way. +That was the sign from the beginning wasn't it? +Yes. +And he hasn't had building inspections at the right sorts of times. +Ah. +So I think he's going to find himself in a lot of trouble. +That's good. +Mm. +Well he didn't, he did deserve it didn't he, really? +Yep. +But he paid dearly for it in the first place didn't he? +I think it's such a shame that he's gone and put that wretched wirenetting fence so close to the road +I agree. +across the road from me. +That what? +Wirenetting fence across the road. +Yes it is wretched. +Cos it's so close to the road, it doesn't give me any swinging round room +Well actually if he's +on my side of the road. +If he's having problems +Mm? +you may be able to get that rectified mayn't you? +Ya. +And say yes +Better arrange for the coal lorr lorry to back in to it one day. +Ya I was I've been thinking of trying to have a big delivery of something. +I mean I would do you er have ? +I don't have any coal delivered unfortunately. +Oh. +I've go I've got some coal in the coal shed and it, you know,i it sort of lasts me. +Oh. +I never seem to run out. +Because if you had old er what's his name? +Don . +Don , 's man er if you explained the bother +Mhm. +er he would back his with a little encouragement from me he'd back his lorry right into it and flatten it for you. +Darling he's a very nice man. +I know he is, that's why he'd do it. +Well unfortunately if, if I did have a delivery of coal it would come in through the other entrance. +Oh that needn't prevent you from backing in er backing into it when he turns round. +No it's been, it's been a tough week this last week. +Oh dear. +I'm sorry. +I feel very sorry for people who have to work for their living now, I really do. +Mm. +Yes. +Oh we've got something else have we? +I thought +Yes we've got a little bit of Israel haven't you? +A bit of Israel? +Yes. +We had a box of oranges sent to us from Israel +Oh I see +direct to me +Mm. +friends of ours there. +Actually it's George 's son. +Mhm. +My wife's +Hello Ian, oh I was hoping that you'd come and see us. +Yes. +That's wonderful. +to see you. +I'm just getting, will you tea? +Yes, I'd love one. +Thank you. +Right I'll just get that. +Well how are things going? +Yes business okay +Mm no +No? +Oh dear dear dear +not at all, no. +Is old alright? +Just about yes yes. +That must be worrying, a lot of people feel like that don't they? +Yes. +No it's, it's been a very bad eighteen months er +Oh dear. +cos the, the business that I was +What? +the business I was a director of +Yes? +er last year went into receivership +Oh lord. +in January +Ooh. +Now does that have a er I, I know you lose the income but does it, does it penalize you at all? +Yes it does. +Oh dear. +Yes. +Yeah we've had er the D T I investigating +Oh lord. +cos it was quite a big company. +Oh. +But erm it just er hopefully because yeah but really they're just trying to investigate to make sure that we didn't act fraudulently in any way. +Oh yes. +Oh good. +I mean I don't suppose +Which, which we didn't. +You know it was the +it was the downturn that erm +Yes, ooh +you know that started nineteen nineteen ninety one. +What was the business what er did you do? +In, in advertising. +Advertising oh yes. +An advertising agency. +Oh. +Yeah. +But about a third of the top agencies in our sector all went bust in +Good god. +in the last eighteen months. +Cos living up here privately in retirement one doesn't realize these things. +I mean er unemployment in er white collar management area is, is, is very marked now. +Is it? +Yeah it's yes. +Yes it's really affect affected our, our businesses. +There's so many areas that have contracted so much. +Yes and i it's a, it's long erm +It is, yes. +process +Yes. +Affects everything. +But, you know, things are going okay. +But you, you managing just, just to hold on +Just about yes. +Yeah. +Cos as you know Ben's in Hong Kong +Yes?yes. +He's suddenly swapping from the police to er security in a big bank. +Oh fascinating. +Oh. +Erm I, I suppose it'll be a couple of years before he does that but +Well, yes. +yes. +Cos he signed up for five, five years didn't he? +He signed up for three years with an option +Mm +to do another two. +Oh I see, yes. +And I think he's going to work out the other two and then go on to this forget the name of it at the moment, this bank +Mm. +and er but he doesn't want to come back to England. +No I was sorry I missed him when he came over last year. +Last year, yes. +I just had a quick phonecall with him. +Oh he did speak to you? +Yes. +Yes that's right mm +Yes. +Yes see that time went like lightning. +Yes. +Such a shame. +Edmund is still in his job. +Aha. +He still hasn't got naturalization but he seems to be fairly erm fairly secure. +He's a journalist of course. +Yes. +Is he confident that he'll get the naturalization? +Oh yes, eventually he will. +Right. +Yes. +W will that be this year or does it take much longer? +You can never tell +Really? +never tell, a girl we know went over at the same time as he did got it this year. +Really? +But er it's just the luck of the draw, it all depends upon the temper of the particular official that's handling it I think. +Yes. +I'll give you a funny article he wrote before you go. +Oh I'd like to see that. +But er I'm just trying to think now er Ben er the trouble with it is, Edmund can't leave the country whilst he's in a job until he gets naturalization because he's got to get a work permit and an entry permit and everything all the way through +Right. +and again er with the present state of unemployment in America it's unlikely he would get it. +It's very difficult. +Yes. +But he, he managed to get his extension to his permit because he had these English connections and the paper he was on reckoned that he was very valuable to them and so they +Good. +they held him. +Good. +Well I'm sure he's +Are your wife and family well? +Yes. +They're happy with you are they? +Yes they are, yes. +I wouldn't er bestow them er on you even for a short visit though. +Oh don't be silly. +The er the s the small one is er +Oh you've got two have you? +Yes he's a real handful. +Is he? +Oh dear dear +Yes. +dear dear. +Yeah he's er he's nearly two and it's a er they're trying times. +I've had it five times. +Yes. +We're expecting another one in June. +Are you really? +You +That'll be that'll be the third. +But I had five. +Every +Yes. +one I said was the last but it . +Oh I see certainly feel that er we must be mad. +We must be mad. +And you're living in Chiswick? +Yes, yes. +Although we'll have to sell that house. +Would you? +What because of the financial position? +Yes. +Oh dear oh dear +So er we'll have to wait we're, we're er we've put an offer in, in on a house in Weybridge +Oh yes? +in Surrey. +Erm not particularly because we, we wanted to go to Weybridge but er +Cos travelling's expensive isn't it? +It is actually. +Fifteen hundred pounds +for twenty five minutes' journey to Waterloo. +But it's got a huge garden which with the two boys I think will be marvellous. +Oh yes. +It's very unusual for a even in a, a suburban er +Yes. +area. +Huge garden. +I know Weybridge slightly. +Do you? +Oh. +Mm. +Erm but will you make, be able to make much profit on the on your old Chiswick house to be able to buy the Weybridge one, will that be an economic move? +Erm we save quite a lot er which is what we're trying to do, yes. +Oh good, yes. +Erm and it's er it's a good area for schools +It is a good area for schools, mm. +a a and er it's you know a reasonable community +As a matter of fact I knew an old couple that ran a, had a nursery school there, a big one and a very successful one. +Yes I imagine it, it would be. +For a number of years they did have but er +It's a shame about le leaving Hounslow where Chiswick is +Yes. +because they provide nursery places. +And +Yes. +so Thomas who's three is at school. +Oh yes. +Whereas Surrey doesn't until they're five. +Oh dear. +So we'll have to put them +Even if they don't you can sometimes find that if you get behind the scenes that there is a way of doing it. +Yes. +Yes. +Got to spin a hard luck story, something of that sort. +Yeah. +Yes. +But erm we're very lucky where we are. +The state schools are very good. +Are they, in Chiswick? +They do seem very good. +Very pleased with them. +But erm it's difficult living in London now. +The erm you really are aware, I don't know if you get up to London much? +Do occasionally, yes. +Yes but the erm the atmosphere +Oh I hate London, it's awful. +Chris Christmas day I had a real chest erm and mouth and everything. +I can quite believe it. +And it's erm it's so oppressive and we really worry about it with the children. +Yes well I can see that, mm. +I er I very much dislike London. +We've got, still got a little house there +Yes. +and er so it gets sort of +At the organ works? +Yes. +Yeah. +It's a bolt hole +Mhm. +but I very seldom use it. +Yes. +How, how's the er organ business going? +They're up to their eyes in work. +Plenty of +Really? +of work. +Mm. +Good. +Lot of it export. +Good. +Ian do you have milk in your tea? +Just milk, that'll be +Just +lovely. +yes right. +Yes. +No sugar? +No thank you. +Oh good lad. +Oh yes John s came back from Japan +Really? +They, he built a large organ university of or +Yes, yes. +And er he was back there ten days ago for some or other to see another customer and when he came, only got back into the country on Monday or Tuesday +Aha. +beginning of this week and then today I've had a letter from an architect friend in America suggesting he gets in touch with an architect in for another job +Yes, yes. +I'm taking it down to him tomorrow. +But he's he's got work in there to come. +He's going to build a new organ for Chelmsford cathedral. +Oh that's good +A new one for St John's College Cambridge, he's really quite busy. +Good. +Good well I'm pleased that er business is strong. +Oh yes he's alright. +Yes. +Well Ian and how are you doing? +Oh not too bad. +Keeping fit +Really? +anyway. +Yes. +You're keeping fit? +That's good. +He said he didn't bring the children because he thought that we were too old for them. +I think we're, I'm too old for my children, well the smallest one. +How lovely. +Harry is a a nightmare. +He's a real +Is he? +handful. +Yes. +He's a handful is he? +Oh dear. +I'm just going to pour you a +Right. +I w I was letting it +Thank you. +er brew a little bit just to +Yes that's fine +for you. +You're looking very fit anyway. +Oh that's kind of you. +Well we keep busy don't we darling? +Ya. +And erm we just love it here of course +Mm. +so we've got nothing to grumble about at all really. +Ian was saying how +Good. +he's moving out of London t to Weybridge or hoping to. +Hoping to. +You are? +Yes. +Oh are you? +Yeah. +That'll be nice. +I, I think so. +Yes. +It's not it's not out of choice entirely because er the business that I was has, has gone very very badly over the last eighteen months +Do you mean that type of business or that particular firm? +Both. +Oh. +Yeah. +But the particular firm I was a director of went into receivership +Oh dear. +beginning of last year, it was about +Oh that's +a year ago now and erm so er I mean fortunately it was bought er as a going concern +Good. +erm but everyone's financial position er suffered as a result. +Yes. +Mm. +So I'm not as, on as good a contract. +You're not? +No. +No. +But them I'm lucky to have have a job really. +Well I mean these were the kind of jobs that weren't replaceable weren't they really? +Well +In a slump. +yes that's it. +I mean there's so little business around that erm +That's right. +so +It was, it was somewhat a good thing that somebody was prepared to buy it. +Yeah. +Now I'll pull this forward a bit erm Ian +Sorry is this your seat? +and no it isn't, no no no, not at all. +Now I'm going to leave those there +Yes. +Alright +and you'll just dive in to those won't you? +Oh lovely thank you. +That's the thing. +I'm going to sit quite near to you because I can hear better when I do. +Right. +So. +Erm so this means that the house that you were so er happy with and have you continued to be happy with it? +Yes. +Erm in er forgotten +In Chiswick. +In Chiswick +Yes. +that's right. +Aha. +So you've got to leave that now? +Yes. +Yes. +Mm +But +Well this is life when you're young. +i i it is really. +Yeah I mean we we're fatalistic about it, it's I, I think it is only a, a phase. +Yes. +Things will change. +Yes. +I'm sure we've learnt er I've learnt er business er er secures as a result of it +Yes. +erm so positive about it. +Yes. +It's the only way to be really isn't it? +Well yeah yes. +Have you got a house ready for you in erm Weybridge? +Well we're buying it from an ol elderly chap +Mm. +erm he's been in it twenty years and er he's had it on the market for some time. +It m probably not as long as a year but it's quite a while +Mm. +er and he's accepted our offer +Good. +but he doesn't seem actually willing to move out +Oh +er which I can understand really. +You, one gets very fond of a house really. +I think he's he's split up with his wife +Oh. +although he must be sixty odd erm and it's obviously a very difficult time for him. +Yes. +Erm so he's keeping us in limbo really +Yes. +which is a bit infuriating cos er Alison's due our third in +My! +at the end of June +Oh. +so er we have to be decided either way +yes. +by then. +Yes. +Oh we're quite happy to rent for a while. +I was going to say that's the alternative I suppose +Yes, yes +to, yes. +yes +And you might even have to do this er for an interim period or something +Yes +until he decides +Can you get +yes. +places to rent alright? +Yes you can actually, yes. +Yes. +Mm yes, do help yourself Ian. +Erm so where would he be meaning to go if he does let you +He wants to move down to a smaller house in Weybridge. +Yes. +Er which we're told shouldn't be difficult to find. +Er no no. +So erm, you know, hopefully that will be the case. +Mm. +But erm I don't think he er realizes how difficult it is +No. +to set up +No. +a move and that really he's quite fortunate to have a buyer somewhere within the price he wanted. +Indeed. +Cos we've all you know, we've all not got as much for our houses as we want +No that's very true. +That's true. +Mm. +Oh well let's hope that he will. +I mean the thing is at the age of sixty he has no conception of what it's like to be your age at this period. +Mm. +Well, you know, he hasn't bought a hou sold a house within the last ten years +Mhm mm +which we've done a number of times +Yes. +and it's not a pleasant it's a very stressful business. +I'm sure I'm sure it is. +I don't know how we escaped it so much but we have you see. +Because we lived on the business, that was +Mm. +er a foregone conclusion and we never sought to move from there until he retired did we? +Mm. +No. +So one doesn't know er exactly what it's like to do it. +No. +No. +Mm. +Gosh. +And tell us about the children, how old are they? +Harry is erm he'll be two in June +Mhm. +then Thomas will be four in August. +Oh I see, so they're nice spaces. +Yes there'll be two years between all of them. +Yes. +Yes. +So which Alison feels is erm er you know the right sort of time +Ideal really. +for her +Yes. +which is obviously important. +Yes. +And erm they haven't had Thomas doesn't remember not having Harry around +That's nice. +whereas we've got friends who've got older children well a little bit there's, yeah, three or four years between +Mm. +and they get er old enough to be er quite er happy that they're on you know,c centre of attention +Exactly. +which er Thomas hasn't. +It sours the relationship a bit. +Yeah it does a bit. +Yes aha. +Mm. +Ah well I I is this going to be, if it's a boy is this going to be a Benjamin? +I don't know actually. +could be. +you've got two boys +Mhm. +and so +the last of the tribe. +Oh the last of the tribe. +Yes. +Well I think I think you know what I mean. +Mm. +Erm that's what we did finally in desperation with Ben wasn't it? +You decided to +He was five, number five . +Erm it would be nice to have a little girl then now wouldn't it +Mm +really? +I'd, it's funny because I always wanted a girl +Mm. +but now I, I wouldn't know, I don't feel I'd know what to do +Mm well this is just how Ruth was. +Yes +got no choice. +Mm. +No that's right. +This is what Ruth er felt cos she had two boys +Mm. +but erm and she thought I shan't know how to deal with a girl at all +Mhm. +which is a funny thing for a woman to think isn't it? +Well Alison feels the same, yes +Does she? +Yes, yes she does. +Yeah. +It is odd isn't it? +But +And then she had +Oh, oh she adores her, and of course she said it's wonderful, I don't have to keep struggling to get boys out of their trousers. +Yes. +This of course is passing now because the girl's +Yes. +four isn't she Noel? +Four and +Really? +Gosh +she'll be five in April and that's the youngest one. +Oh. +And er, oh here they are +Mm. +and er she said it was lovely to be able to put her in dresses. +Mm. +That's the first day at school +Oh lovely. +for Catherine. +Mhm. +She, they all go to the same school. +Oh lovely. +That's nice isn't it? +children, yes it's great. +Mm. +So Ruth I think as far as, barring accidents, will regard that as being her final +Right. +They live in Wells +Oh do they? +in Somerset. +Mm. +Yes. +Oh lovely. +I don't know that area but +And they no they're very happy there . +So that's them. +And I gather John's doing well. +Yes John is doing well, he's got three children too. +He's ooh +Yes and his are +lots +the other way round +Aha. +erm a boy first and then two girls. +Well he's got three too. +Nice kids. +Yes. +Mm yes nice kids. +Mm. +And of course Margaret's not erm inclined for marriage, she loves her job. +No, yeah. +And erm I think she'll be she'll, she'll probably stay single unless +Mhm +she meets some nice old man. +Yeah. +Wh and where's Margaret working? +She's now at erm one of the girls public day school trust schools in Sydenham. +Oh. +Sydenham High School. +Mm. +Sydenham High School For Girls. +Her dream really is to be teaching at City of London School +Mm. +And erm I'm ho we're hoping that she might +Mm. +get a job there. +But she loves her work doesn't she Noel? +Very secure. +And she +And your mother seems keeping quite well. +Yes, yes she is. +She had a bad er flu over Christmas +when she was due to come and she's still got a very bad chest +Mm. +Oh I'm sorry to hear that, oh. +but er +That's the bit that hangs on always +Yes. +isn't it? +Mm. +Yes I saw her, I went up to I went to keep fit with her +Oh you did? +Good. +and er +Good. +although I didn't last Tuesday, I did the Tuesday before and she seemed +Mhm +to be getting back on her feet alright. +Mm. +Ah +She says she's much better +Mm. +And what about Hamish? +Mhm. +Doing fine? +Mm. +Finding it quite difficult to get work but erm he was over at Christmas for a short time. +Oh yes. +I don't think +And I saw him +we saw him did we? +No. +Well he wasn't here very long +No. +but er they've got, they've se set up their own teaching business +Oh, have they? +and again because of the recession over there le learning English is, is one of the things that, you know, gets put, put back on the +It's not a priority. +priority yes. +Mm. +Mm. +So erm but they se they seem to be working out okay. +Mm. +They've taken somebody else on so things can't be that bad +Have they? +Yeah. +Oh good. +Mhm. +er Alec is a re another real handful. +Is he? +He's a year younger than Thomas but he was the same height +Mm. +and er sort of wild curly hair and +Oh really? +Yes. +real wild +Isn't that funny? +but lovely, lovely boy yeah. +Yes, yes but, but lively. +Yes. +Mm. +Very much so. +Is that the only child they have at the present time? +Yes. +Yes. +Mhm. +Mm. +Yeah. +Mm. +All they can cope with I think. +And of course he'll be bilingual. +Well he is. +Mm. +He's quite slow as a result, which is quite common apparently +Is it? +with er children who are brought up with both languages. +Mm. +Mm. +Erm bec they don't speak either very well to start off with. +And how old is he did you say? +He's two and a half +Oh well it's early. +It's such an advantage to them later on I think. +Oh well a absolutely yes. +Mm. +Er he because Toni, Hamish's wife +Mm +is half French so +Is she? +I'm, I'm sure he'll her pick up +Get three. +Trilingual. +Yes. +Cos they spend quite a lot of time, they spend their holidays in France. +Yes. +So I'm sure that confuses him even more at this stage. +Mm. +Course it does. +Yeah. +Yes but in the end it does seem to work. +I was always a bit doubtful about it +Mm. +erm er you know, whether it could vu confuse children or not but in fact it doesn't seem to with John's children does it? +No no. +His +They use +his wife is German. +Yes. +Yes. +Mhm. +And they use both languages quite freely. +Mm. +In fact she gets rather uptight because erm during the year at school when they're speaking English most of the time +Yes. +which is very natural, and so she ships them off to Germany to the relatives +To put them straight. +Aye +That's quite right I think because it is a good, good thing. +That's right. +Well it is. +I wo I won't thanks. +Will you have another one? +No thank you. +Well help yourself then if you want one. +Mm. +But +Yes. +of course the, the, the slump is also, not the slump, the recession is also er operative in Italy is it? +Yes. +It's everywhere. +Ian why do people +It's worldwide. +Well +make such a fuss about it erm I mean politically? +Well, yes well I suppose it's +Everybody's having to cope with it. +coming up to an election time and +Of course. +everyone er +They're bound to use it. +bound to use anything they can +Mm. +er any angle they can get, get a grip of. +Yes. +But er yes, no it is th I mean they had a lot of business from banks and areas like that +Yes. +which of course have lost a lot of money in the last year or two. +That's right of course. +They have, they will be drawing back on most things. +Yeah. +But in fact they're the people aren't they who need bilingual people on the staff? +Yes they are. +They're much, much better. +I mean y er you know, although they're in recession I, I think there's you know in this country +Mm. +we we're owned now, our company, by a French agency group and erm none of our directors are, are learning French. +Isn't it extraordinary. +And yet you've got people who run restaurants, small businesses of that sort erm just general businessmen who want, you know, know they have to speak English. +Mm. +And they're just doing it as a matter of course over there. +Yes. +They all seem to have more drive than our people, what's the matter with us? +It's certainly in the, in that area, it's the cosmopolitan business +Mm. +attitude er and also it's complacency because we can +Yes. +you can get away with it. +You know all the meetings +That's right. +are held in English. +Mm. +Mm. +And er the French speak very good English +Mm. +erm so there's, there's not enough incentive there. +No. +And I have to say that er I don't. +But I, I, I I ou really I, I know I'll have to be thrown into the situation of having to do it +You'd better get on with it and do it now. +Yes. +But of course the beauty of it is you've done it at school haven't you? +Yes. +And once you've done it at school, it comes back with a bit of an effort quite quickly. +Yeah I've got a reasonable vocabulary +Yes. +Yes. +but never really spoken it at all. +I mean we never did any French trips. +Didn't you? +was useless for languages when I was there. +Was it? +Yes absolutely hopeless. +We never did any trips of that nature at all actually. +And what was the teaching system? +Er had they by the time you were still at school come on to that new erm er system where you speak a lot more? +No. +No. +You've done it out of grammar books? +Yes. +Mm. +Yes. +I remember +Mm. +it was, yeah vocabulary tests and that sort of thing which +Mm. +Mm. +you know er well it's er it's a middle ages approach to +Well actually the one thing you can say about it is, it is a good grounding for what you now go on and do +Mm. +because erm wherever you go now for refresher lessons, they will use the modern method. +Yeah. +And that's, that will build on that foundation. +Yes. +You'll be astonished how quickly it'll come back. +Mm mm. +You really will. +Hopefully. +Mm. +Yes all we had when I was at school were l l yards of verbs and yards of nouns, we never knew how to put the two lots together. +No. +That's true. +Yeah. +Mm. +The people who had the imagination or ability to do it where the ones that could speak the languages, the ones that didn't +Yes it was +made no connection at all. +Mm. +Because I knew a lot of nouns and a lot of verbs, I could get by when I went to Algeria in +Mm. +nineteen forty but it was I envied those who could really speak. +Yeah. +Mm. +But erm if you see some officer floundering for the word for a cabbage or something of that sort I could provide the word and he provided the conversation. +Yes. +Mm. +Yes. +Well actually you're going to a centre aren't you er in where there will be evening classes and that sort of opportunity? +Yes. +I think probably +It's, it's it's well erm served for for +Mm I would imagine it's quite well led. +Mm. +Ya. +And you'll have no problem, yes. +Mm. +Aha. +I'll have to give up my art classes then which is +Art? +haven't been doing them recently but when I've been able to get a, er an evening away that's what I +Mm mm. +spend my time doing over the past few years. +Yes but will it rule it out altogether do you think if you've got to do the French? +Well A Alison goes out for one evening so that means I have to get back early for that evening +Mm. +and then if I, I go out for another one, that means two evening evenings back +Yes. +leaving the office at five thirty on the dot and of course +Yes. +I, I can't do that more than twice a week. +No. +No I see. +Your work itself is going to take more time than that. +Well yes. +Is that just at first or is it regularly? +No I mean it's, it's always been the case. +Mm. +Mm. +Ya. +Mm. +It's tough really. +It is tough. +It's very erratic the work as well, it's it's +Yes, is it? +very, you know, stop start +Yes. +Is it still advertising? +Yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +You must be pretty good at that by now. +Well I've got quite a lot of experience I mean I've +Yes you have. +I've done it since I was, well it's getting on for fifteen years now. +It isn't? +Yeah, thirteen years in, in +Mm. +the same area +Mm. +I've not really moved around a lot +No. +No. +in the actual function. +No. +Just sort of progressed up the ladder I suppose +Yes. +Mhm. +so, yes +Yes. +Oh well, you can only make the best of the thing you've got and that's the best thing to do rather than +Mm. +unless you're forced to switch er horses, you know in, in mid stream. +Yeah. +Well i i I always say that er it always comes a surprise that I was good at anything. +And I always think back to the er the time I think Edmund and I were sitting in the back garden here and deciding that we'd go off and join the paratroopers +Really? +because we weren't going to get any O levels. +Oh! +And that was about all we were good for . +I'm sorry. +How funny. +But in fact you did get your O levels didn't you? +So I remember well I got a handful +Yes I remember +Mm. +And Edmund got a B A. +Yeah. +Ah but wait a minute, not until after that was it? +yes. +He got his O levels but that was it. +Yes. +Decided he'd had enough and I suppose you had too. +Mm well +Did you stay on for As? +Yes I did. +Mm. +But again I you know I always had the ability to er to know, to scrape by +Yes. +or knowing what the minimum required was +and er pitching myself at just over that point I think. +Yes. +Which I suppose is some sort of ability +Well it's a it's a, in a way that's quite true. +Mm. +Yes it saves the er er the use of excess energy when you don't need to doesn't it? +Yes. +That's right. +Ah. +Edmund was lucky because he got this chance to do a university you see in +Mm. +in er New Hampshire wasn't it? +Yes. +Erm +Well that's when er Ben and I saw him, when he was doing it +That's right, you did. +doing that, yes. +You did. +Yeah. +But I'd love to see him again. +Oh yes. +I'd love to get a trip out there. +It would be wonderful wouldn't it? +Yes. +He'd so love to see people and of course at the moment +Mm. +he daren't make trips, or at least it wouldn't be wise to make trips yet +I know, yes I know +because he's waiting for his +Yes, naturalization. +Shame really. +Yes. +That's right. +Can I pour you another cup of tea Ian? +I'm fine actually, thank you. +We've got photographs, recent ones, to show you anyway. +Oh good. +And we saw him in September October didn't we? +Yes yes +End of September beginning of October +Good. +and stayed +they had a barn just a little way from the house, you could see it but it +Right. +wasn't very striking +It was +No it was, it was just grey and, and, and +Yes. +quite unobtrusive. +Well they've had a marvellous sort of conversion of that done +Mm. +for guests and erm +Because they had a beautiful house anyway didn't they? +Oh a beautiful house +Mm. +yes and they're still in the same house. +They they're +Yes. +very fond of it. +And erm so now when we go they're awfully sweet and they bring Edmund at the same time +Oh right. +and we all three, Noel and Edmund and I, live in this barn. +Oh that's lovely. +ideal. +Which is marvellous. +for breakfast. +George did that, really, so that when his grandchildren came he hadn't got them under his feet. +No, it's a good idea. +And he, well he's, he was wealthy enough to do exactly as he wanted. +Yes. +Yeah. +It sounds ideal. +It's lovely. +Yeah. +It's very lovely. +They're such nice people. +Yeah. +And of course they +I didn't meet him. +Oh didn't you? +No I only met erm Ellie +Ellie. +very briefly as well. +Well it was summer, wasn't it? +Yes er no it was April. +Oh. +April and the son +And had they gone away then? +the son was there. +Dan. +Dan was around and the other, the, the younger one. +Oh John. +I c I don't remember his name. +Er John was the youngest. +Yes I think it was him. +Mike wouldn't be, I think he was w er getting on a bit, oh I don't know +Dan lived in town +Mike was at university. +Yes +er and the, the son, I think he was at college himself +That's right. +and he was sort of back and forwards but he was based +That's right. +in the house. +Yes. +That was John. +yes. +Mike was down at er Providence. +He was in university. +They're all married, those boys now. +Are they? +Yes. +Dan is +Good. +married. +Without any children +I remember Dan but I +oh yes Dan's a dear boy. +Yes. +And er we're very fond of them all. +Mm. +And erm of course er it's just like second home to Edmund. +They are so good to him. +Yes. +I must say it's, it must be good to have somebody like that er +Absolutely. +o over there cos it, it must be must have felt quite isolated +Yes. +Oh he would if he hadn't got them +Yes. +certainly. +Yes. +I mean it's lovely because he er he adores to get into does Edmund and that means that he and George go about this lovely big er grounds that they've +Yes. +got and Edmund does lots of grass cutting and er +tree cutting and +all manner of things with +Mm. +George. +They've got a great com a great relationship going. +Good. +Good. +And of course he spends Christmas. +let me see, Dan is the same age as John isn't he? +As Ben, no Edmund isn't he? +Erm +I think he's a bit older. +he's older. +Oh. +Yes +He's younger than John +cos Edmund and I are the same age +Oh. +Are you thirty f +Thirty four. +four now? +Yes. +That's right. +Well I should think Dan might be +Couple of years older? +Not as much as that. +oh. +Well +before they were married. +Really? +Yes. +Gosh. +Yes Dan must be I would have thought it's only months probably, but it might be quite a few months. +Mm. +Mm I don't think it's more because we soon had, started having our children didn't we? +Mm. +Erm ooh wait a minute we're saying, we're saying than Edmund aren't we? +Yes mm. +Of course, I'm stupid. +He was the eldest of their children. +Dan was? +Dan was. +Yes. +Oh right. +Yes. +Ya. +So I'm v I'm a bit vague about it, you may well be right and it's two years +Mm. +because of course we've got older children than Edmund. +That would line him up with Edmund though wouldn't it? +No +Yes +No +no +no, a couple of years you're quite right. +Mm? +Couple of years older I should think. +Yeah. +That's it. +But erm oh they're a great family they really are but I think George and J Joy's having Edmund because although Dan lives in the town er what's it called, New Haven? +Yes. +Erm obviously he's got his own business, he's got a shop now, an outfitter's shop. +Yes +Did he have it that time? +He had something like that. +He was so vague though. +I mean +I know +he was delightfully vague +Oh he's an absolutely +but I was never really sure what he was doing . +No +Er yes I I thought he had a shop, maybe yes +That's er he worked in a shop probably at that time. +Yes I think so yes. +That's it, he worked in that er fancy goods shop +That's right. +nine years ago +Visitors shop. +that we went. +Sorry? +I think it was nine years ago. +Was it? +Yes. +Yes. +It doesn't seem possible really does it? +The year before I married. +Eighty five. +Good heavens. +Was it really? +Is that no, no eighty five that no eighty three, that's right, yes, nine years. +Was it? +Mm. +Yes. +Oh well that was a great thing for you really wasn't it? +You must have enjoyed it. +Oh it was a marvellous trip. +Splendid. +Was it? +Absolutely yeah. +Mm. +Really very good. +Mm. +I enjoyed travelling with Ben a lot. +Yes. +He's a very good er companion. +Yes he was a good travelling companion I should +Yes. +imagine. +Yes. +Yes. +He of course is +Ben's been all over the world since then +Well yes. +I know. +I'm most envious of him I am. +And do you sometimes get any word from him? +Very rarely. +Mm well so do we. +Rarely. +Yes. +I must write to him myself actually. +Have you got his latest address? +I haven't, no. +I'd better give it to you because he has +Right. +changed it. +I did bring my address book with me. +I'll go and I'll go and get it for you and do make yourself another tea +Oh righto I'll just, excuse me a minute I'm +Yes of course +You sit down, that's alright. +Right. +Oh yes. +Oh I see. +the day before he left. +Mm. +Is this on the sort of or something? +Ah it's pretty, yes it's that sort of place +Have you been to Hong Kong ? +I haven't been to Hong Kong to see Ben +Mhm. +because, but I did go to Hong Kong when I went to China. +Oh you went to China, that's right, yeah. +That's right for three weeks and erm then I wasn't impressed by it, I was much more interested in China. +Yes. +But I would, in a way, love to go whilst he's there but he er he really feels that it wouldn't be a place that would suit pa and me on holiday. +Mm. +So +I've heard that before. +What love? +Other people it's a noisy place. +It isn't it isn't nice but for the young +Well Enid's been there I haven't. +Mm. +It's nice for the young I think. +As far as I've been is the airport. +Mm. +Now can you see Edmund's cos he changed +You see it's a terrible erm +Well I'll go and get it, I've got it written down there in my place. +Well it's here darling +but it's just a question of finding it, it's +right. +Just go through, you'll find it certainly. +Is it +that's it, is it ? +That's it. +Oh +That's it, that's it. +Well that's lovely. +I'm going to get one of those articles that Ben wr Edmund wrote. +Oh yes, yes he'll enjoy that. +I've got no excuse now. +No. +Who's going to sit down? +That's right sit there. +I expect si , don't know how Len's gotta sit down or whether he's gotta stand. +I'm gonna stand. +Are you happier standing? +Yes it's his +That's alright . +his back. +Belinda if we can start with you more or less erm I heard the other day that you're half thinking that you might like to be a nurse? +Yeah, that's it. +That's right. +Mhm. +Can you speak up a bit. +Speak up a bit Belinda! +What erm what sort of nurse are you thinking about? +Nursery nurse, looking after young children in nurseries and stuff like that. +Mhm. +I can imagine you doing that. +Can you? +Aha. +Mhm. +I can. +Yes. +I'm going, for work experience I'm going to Saxted Ministry up there hopefully to see what it's like looking after children you know, like a nursery and everything. +So hopefully I can get the job there from that two weeks, and then +That would be wonderful! +what it's like. +Yeah. +I didn't +Yes. +know there was one at Saxted +Yeah, it's called Rainbow. +I think, isn't it? +Yeah. +Oh that's right, yes. +And is that for children who are living there or just go in for the day? +Just go in for the day till their parents go to work I think. +Mhm, +Oh Good! +I think it's something like that, yeah. +Aha. +And what qualifications mus must you have for that? +Erm, I don't really know at the moment, I gotta look up and see what it needs, like and things to do and study, things like that. +Mhm. +Mm. +Mhm. +Good! +So probably GCSE +Right. +Mhm. +It's all to do with GCSE coursework and see how we're getting on during the two weeks and we get experience for us when we leave school and go to work. +That's a good idea! +Yeah. +You get a feeling for it then. +Yeah. +I think it's one of the best jobs for a girl that there are don't you? +Well I think so, I think erm as long as they can go and work with children and then they've got the time when they can leave off and come, but it's having the whole time, well then they've children all their life haven't they? +Yes. +This is the only thing if you go sort of privately you know? +Yes. +You can fe start of with children and you are finishing up with children! +Well that well tha wo would tha would you not think that's a good thing? +Erm +I mean, for instance, if you do the the very high grade Norlands nanny training they go on till they're grey and experienced it all +Like me ! +haven't they? +Well, you know i don't they? +Well +Yeah. +would you feel you'd not want to do it all that time then Belinda? +I don't really know actually, it's always +Can't yet. +the time, no. +That's true. +I don't know but,that far ahead, you know. +Just a good experience for her for time, you know. +Indeed! +But I shouldn't want her do it all her life! +You wouldn't? +No. +It's a very well paid job! +Oh yes, I know! +What about that, but I meant she gotta think about, she'll want children of own and then she'll have chi +Yes. +Aren't you? +Aye Liddy? +Oh yes! +But then +don't you think that it's a, it's a marvellous training for her? +That's what I say, it's a training, nice +Yes. +training for them, then say after about three or four year if they wanna get married, they got children and they got some good experience. +Absolutely! +Mm. +It's invaluable. +Yes. +That can't be the kind of thing you're thinking of then? +What do you want, what do you have er, in mind? +I'd like to go into the farmer business. +Would you? +Yeah, erm mixed farm with animals and sort of, cereal crops, stuff like that. +Good! +Well you're in the right place for that. +Yeah. +Would you got to an agricultural college? +Yeah, I'm hoping to go Ockleigh whe why am I, get older. +Sort of erm working on a farm for two days then going to the college erm that, so I do it like that. +Mm. +It's a good place,Ockleigh +Yeah. +Splendid! +And then, would you like to work in this area or would you like to go elsewhere? +I don't know. +I hadn't really thought about it, it's erm it all depends on what farm I'm going on cos I've or erm cows an , cows and bullocks, you know. +Mm. +Mm. +And you won't have worked on a farm at all yet, will you? +No. +Not yet. +Though, go and sometimes and he's got bullocks so that's where I go, got it from. +And Dave . +Oh that's good! +They got ponies haven't they +Yeah and +Mm mm. +these two erm, sort of mucking about . +You think you'd quite like to be with animals would you? +Yeah. +Aha. +And I, I wouldn't mind doing some sort of a rou , some amount of work. +Yeah, what I mean, all round agricultural work and on your ? +Yeah. +Is that it? +Well +Mm. +that's great! +We've been gardening this morning. +I was looking at the garden as I came in, I thought I might have, even though I didn't know the number +Yeah. +I'd have known that was your +Yeah. +garden. +Because of all the trimmings. +Well it's not very good this year aren't they? +No, they're not very good at all! +Well bearing in mind +In fact , we're disappointed with it cos usually we have vegetables out of our own garden all the year round but they didn't do very well this year did they? +No. +It's +Why's that? +the worst garden had for years! +It's a dry summer time. +Really! +Last summer time, I mean +Ah yes! +last year I was cutting cauliflowers weighing nearly five and seven pound, but this year I shan't have one weight two pound! +Is that because of the dry winter? +Yeah, dry is dry autumn too, you see. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yes. +They didn't really get a hold did they? +They didn't get a hold, didn't get a start. +Really? +Aha. +See an a , I wouldn't like other people keep using the water cos they very careful on using the water +Yes. +but if I'd have give it, had to give them some water they'd have done much better but I, like everybody else we kept hoping it were gonna rain,but ! +That's right. +Yeah. +And it never did at the right +No. +time. +No. +No, I see. +No, I mean we have to tops this time of year, we ain't got any in this year. +We ain't bothered to put them did you? +No er, cos they'd have dry up but I didn't put none in. +No. +You'll +But +miss them. +Ooh well we have missed them! +Yeah. +That's like the sprouts, they didn't do as well this year +No. +either did they? +No one ate the did they? +No. +Nor the cauliflow +No. +No. +Mm! +So erm well he you took the sprouts up yesterday didn't you? +And I put the other in. +Yeah. +They'd got erm but they weren't no good those ones dad. +No, nope! +I mean the a normal week would go on a garden and get free vegetables every day off our garden couldn't we, normal time, normal, every time? +Every day of the year! +Gosh! +You know the +Mm mm. +That's wonderful! +Because +Yeah. +there's nothing like them is there? +Oh there isn't, no no! +Aha. +Well, we'll probably pick some of the spinach today and then +Yeah. +he's gotta dig that up and make the garden. +Yes. +Do you like gardening too, Ben? +Ooh he love it! +Oh isn't that great! +Because very often you, a father can be very keen on gardening and getting the children to help him is just the last thing. +Yeah ! +Well he's done ever since he was a little old boy, just +Yeah. +start walk, walking. +Well +Have you? +Got , we got some photographs +Yeah. +here when he, where he started digging, he weren't very old! +No. +Yeah, erm when I started digging up I was smaller than the fork, the fork was, yes! +Really? +And they didn't buy you one the right size! +No. +way you do it at granny's. +Yeah erm when I got a little older, I put these little forks in and when +Cos Miss , ain't seen any of my family's have you? +No, I haven't. +That's my older sister. +Died last August. +Oh that's nice! +That's my older sister +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +That that little boy is o but +Is he? +And do they live near? +Fairly near? +Er +Arborough +No. +No! +Arborough +Arborough +Arborough man , is it ? +Yeah,Arb , erm +What's her name of the farm, the innit? +Yeah. +Farm. +Farm,Arborough +Arborough is that in Lincolnshire? +No. +No. +Er, Norfolk. +Norfolk. +Oh , Norfolk! +Er +Mm. +Just the other side of Halsam between Halsam and . +Oh is it? +Mm. +Yes. +Ah well +Yeah. +that's +and the +nice! +That's nice! +And tha , and that's her husband look. +Oh yes, that's right. +Yes. +And this was their golden wedding? +Yes, yes +It was last +last August. +It was last August. +Isn't that lovely! +Yeah. +And that's the farm house, in fact? +Mm? +Yes. +Is that farm +Yes. +house? +That's the farm +Yes. +house, yes. +They've +Yes. +been there ooh well forty year I think. +Really? +Mm. +That's lovely! +Mm. +They've had the his father +Lovely! +had a farm at and they sold that and moved to that one. +Really? +Yeah. +And that's Len's +That's +brothers on there. +That's all my +The wedding we went to, was it two years ago now? +Oh yeah. +Not long. +Not quite two years ago was it? +No. +Two years +That's all my brothers. +Ooh, look at that! +He is the image! +Mm. +And that's my +Yes. +next to me that is. +That's right. +And then +Yeah. +the girls are on there aren't they? +Yeah, that's my sister the upper +Oh yes! +sister. +Yes. +Yes. +And that's Len's mother. +She's now ninety four! +She's still alive is she? +Yeah. +Ninety four! +Splendid! +Yeah. +Has sh +Yeah sh , only the last two years she's gone a bit blind or otherwise she could do anything couldn't she? +Yeah. +Really? +Yeah. +Well we saw her Sunday didn't we? +We went over Sunday and see her. +She looks very smart +Yeah. +there doesn't she? +That's that's Len's brother, the one who on that book graph. +Oh yes, yes. +Erm oh where's another one? +They old Grace is sitting +And that's Len. +behind there +Yeah. +that's right. +That's another sister behind there. +Ah yes I see her. +So that's just one, two, three sisters and +Mm! +then +And three brothers? +Yeah. +And I got a sister, I got a sister in America +Three brother , no four brothers innit, you got? +Four brothers, yes. +Four brothers? +Yes. +So you were eight altogether? +Yeah , that's right, yes. +Yes but the oldest brother is dead now isn't he? +Oh yeah oldest brother's dead, yes he +Is he? +yes he got +And that's where Belinda's her, she's now got a little baby boy +Oh, that's nice! +three months old? +Yeah. +Or two months old? +He's about eight weeks old. +Eight weeks? +Yeah. +Oh they're just beginning to be I always feel by the time they're eight weeks +Yes. +they're just beginning to be here really. +Yes, that's +Yeah. +right. +They're frightening until they're eight weeks old +aren't they? +Yeah. +But of course this will be lovely for you! +Yeah. +Mhm. +You might even be allowed to bath her or him? +Him. +Him. +Michael. +Michael. +Mightn't you? +Mhm. +Yeah. +That will be nice! +Hopefully. +Whereabouts is this? +My erm +She lives at Martlesham. +Oh that +Oh where where +that +she lives. +Oh sorry! +Martlesham +Martlesham village. +Martlesham. +Martlesham. +Mhm. +That was down at the the little wooden . +That's Widdlesdale Church. +Widdesdale +Oh I see! +And that's the first marriage they had in there for twenty five years weren't it? +Yep! +No! +Yeah. +Is that so? +Yes. +Yeah. +Bonny girl isn't she? +You don't know who that is do you? +Oh I do! +That's a lovely picture of you Belinda isn't it? +Mm mm. +Lovely! +I always say that these two children, they're lovely to meet because erm oh that's nice too! +We got one of those. +Because they always erm answer, whenever I, we meet in the village shop, we always have a chat don't we? +Yeah we do. +That's lovely! +Mm mm, what beautiful pictures! +Is that kiss or a whisper? +That's a kiss. +It was a kiss. +The first one was so quick they had to get him to do it again! +Because he's looking a little bit this way isn't he? +Yeah. +That's lo , oh they're lovely aren't they! +When you erm +They're very nice! +that's but the they, they're jolly expensive aren't they? +Cor! +You know, they're a lovely lot +Well they are! +of pictures, and you couldn't tell really which ones +They are nowadays, that's true! +to have but you've got to just go for what you can erm well afford to. +Well yes, yes! +Well yeah it's +I only used to a little bit of +Well I mean if you had twenty or thirty that's only the same only a little bit different, that's all +That's right. +because many are the same but +You don't want all that many do you +No. +really? +That's true. +No it's +Do you do any photography at school? +I haven't. +You can do but only in my year. +Can you? +Yeah, fourth year and upwards. +In art and design at lunchtimes and that and +Yes , it's one of those er, things you do in so , in sort of spare time at +Yeah. +school? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mm, yes. +In the extra. +That's good because then you'll be able to do your own. +Is that er +That's erm the idea, sort of bullock farming and that +Oh! +I hope. +My word! +They're all er, that's sort of the marshes. +Really? +Mm. +Oh yes, all that, and look at that level land and then I would +Yeah but down on the marshes, near, near The Wavey +Oh yes! +Well you know when they had all hooha about erm dig our +Gravel. +Gravel pit down there, there's a lot in the +that's just behind there. +Oh is it? +And when they had all those trees cut down erm +Ah! +that farmer did all those trees. +Oh yes! +And we had to move all them, there were a lot of hooha about it in the paper about what, a year ago? +No, it ain't a year ago. +I don't think it's quite a year ago, about the trees. +Really? +It was over a year ago about the gravel. +Did he do it without permission? +Yes he just +Yeah. +uprooted all these old trees and things +Ah! +That was when I was +These are nice! +yeah, I was five then +Ah yes! +Mm. +That's +Mm! +Ooh these are lovely aren't they? +And that er he rides his ponies. +Ah yes. +Aha. +And you, you actually rode along in that did you? +Yeah. +Well I think they're old seaside carts, seem to be +Yep! +rigged up. +And he changed them so that you get, so they're having one course in and +Yeah, he had two horses. +he had two, two ponies in there. +Oh I see, yes. +Three. +Three ponies in there. +Really? +That's lovely! +And one of those ponies, we rescued it didn't we? +Yeah , it's Blackie. +Blackie. +Really? +What happened? +Er well +But she didn't get she got ill treated and that and he didn't the erm boy didn't feed him properly so it's all sort of skin and bone so we went and brought his pony and erm, we sort of fed it up and got it going again. +Really? +Yeah. +So it's still a bit jumpy around us. +And erm +Well of course, that's the thing if they're badly treated +Mm. +erm +That's her own little pony look. +Yeah, a miniature. +A miniature. +Had a miniature one. +Oh really? +That's the one whe , in the, in the kitchen it bit my mother's backside one day she thought that was a dog! +Really? +And it's a tubby little thing isn't +Yeah. +it? +Ah yeah, well that wasn't quite so big as that! +No, no! +That's when it was younger. +Yeah . +She kept saying, get out the way Nellie! +Get out the way Nellie! +The way Nellie! +And that wasn't Nellie +And it wasn't. +that was Jimmy! +Oh it was funny but +This is the farm house we were talking about +Yes. +is it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Looks lovely! +No that's where my mother and sister live that one. +Oh I see. +But a , they the one who my sister, ah but that's at Winsdale +Oh I see. +Mm. +That's where they spend, Belinda spends all her holidays down there. +Oh you love it do you Belinda? +Yes, yes. +What do you do? +Well I just look after the ponies and +Granny. +look after granny and +Get her dressed . +And get her dressed. +Do you? +Downstairs, yes. +I go and help my mum sometimes when I go over there. +Do you? +Aha. +That's +Yes. +good! +That's good! +Oh well ye , Belinda if you're the sort of person who can help someone to dress you're going to be a good nurse I think. +I feel she would make a nurse. +Mm, this was nurse. +Yes, I was a nurse. +Was you? +Mm! +Wonderful life! +Mm. +Really is marvellous, I loved it! +What erm +Mm. +did you do, I mean were you erm +General. +general nurse +Yes. +were you? +Mm. +Mhm. +Yes. +Oh it's a great life,a , I think anyway. +No but erm my sister-in-law's going to do erm +My sister says over there. +she'd be +Yeah ! +job to get out the house for a little while and she usually gets granny up, cos granny have to come down on one of those chairs. +Oh yes! +And erm she can't see enough to be able to do it on her own. +To work it herself. +So she usually goes over there +Mhm. +And then when Suzanne was she had a lot of trouble carrying her about and she had to be in hospital quite a bit +Mm. +we looked after her. +Erm they left Belinda in charge of her. +Well how nice! +And the nights? +Yeah. +Once or twice +Really? +in the night. +Yeah. +Mhm. +How old are you now Belinda? +Fourteen. +Fourteen, yes. +Mhm. +Aha. +Well you're quite grown up now really. +Mhm. +Aha. +That's er, wonderful to be able to do that though, a lot of people wouldn't have the patience. +That's a lovely one, Ben! +Mhm. +So you see why he like to get over there cos he got +Oh yes! +I certainly can. +How very nice! +Yeah. +I suppose they're farm cats, they're not made pets? +Yeah they are made pets. +Oh they're our cats. +They're our cats, but they +Are they? +Oh are they? +They were +Poisoned. +poisoned, somebody killed them deliberately! +Oh no! +They reckon I know something from farm cats that are dying. +Mm. +Cos I they er but +This old lady here +Where is she, in the kitchen? +his great, +she's in the kitchen. +great grandmother to these. +Really? +Er yeah +Is she? +Erm her mother or was that the fireman who go up, went up Ringer School. +Mm. +Mm. +And he used to go without dinner. +Yeah. +Oh yes! +And when and when erm dad got in a Land Rover round field it used to beat them down the field! +Yeah. +Ha! +Go down to the bottom and it does the same to go to the top. +But when +But when I come to go back she see me go the Land Rover she's up the top waiting for me! +Oh, is that so ? +She's up that . +Yes! +Cats do +She didn't come on the road way she went in the field side. +Yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +Then they're when they come out erm and she had two erm +Mice under each foot, front feet and two in her mouth. +One in each foot and one in her mou , two in her mouth! +Oh no! +Yes, cor she was marvellous! +She caught +All at once? +Like that? +Yes! +She put six in her mouth! +It was as or whatever she put her foot, don't know, don't know if popular what we feed him cos we don't move when I wa , the time they were put into bush cos of er +No. +when you life them up, well of course the they've seen so many mice, she grabbed two in that mouth straight away and two and as they were going up she grabbed +Ha ! +two in each foot! +Gracious me! +Yeah. +Phorgh +Yeah. +she does move! +Oh well of course, it's paradise for mice isn't it +Oh yes! +that sort of thing? +lovely, dry you see. +Yes! +Yes. +And you as says you can't mess them about you see, cos after I've and smother so we have +Oh I see. +be careful what we're doing. +Not in big er, sort of shapes all the time. +Oh yes, yes five hundred in a bay. +My word! +Mm. +That's a lot isn't it? +You know. +Do you still do some of then Len? +No, I can't +No. +do nothing tell you +No. +the truth. +No. +I can't put my shoes on! +Can't you? +I have to put his shoes and socks on. +Can't put my socks on! +Really? +No, I can't ge , that's the closest I can . +Is it arthritis? +Joints in my back,wha , with walking, carrying too much weight when I was young. +Oh I see, yes! +And they get hooked, it acts like a bearing, a ball bearing and they get a little bit on the edge +That's right. +from carrying too much weight and then they get hooked and they press them down and runs right down this leg. +That's right, yes. +Ooh sometimes I can't get down the street can I? +No. +Really? +Yeah. +Mm. +Well he don't go down the street so much do +No. +you? +It's so much +Yeah you +harder! +but how much wiser you are with Mr greed! +Ah ah ah! +Ah yes, yes! +A silly man, I can't understand, cos you used to get in a car now what I went in the car Sunday, well it the +That was +devil of a job to get out of it! +Was it? +Yes. +Mm. +Well +Mm. +now he did that with ease, you know. +Mm. +Mm. +What a pity that was! +And he was driving as well, weren't you? +we used +Yes. +to drive them back, come in the pub. +Is he still alive? +Yes. +No, he's still alive but he's +Yes , he's not going to get better. +Well, he's more or a less a cabbage though isn't he? +Mm. +Yeah, he's not going to get better!. +Yeah. +A nice old gentleman too! +I mean he's a lovely +Oh, a real English gentleman +Yeah, well I used +isn't he? +to love him come in the pub, you know what I mean he nice to talk to and that +Yes! +Yes. +Yeah. +But that was a, that's a real tragedy! +Mm. +Yeah. +But er, but once you're older unless it's a matter +Yep! +of life and death you're better not going +No. +to operation. +And he weren't very old when he +Oh! +start thinking that! +How old are you there Ben, do you know? +Erm +About about six +Eight. +about, six, seven, or eight, you can't be no more. +Seven or eight. +Really? +And you're now +Erm twelve. +Twelve. +Twelve. +Yes. +Now that was still, that was here in this house +Oh yes +wasn't it? +, yeah. +Yeah, that was on erm +That was across there near the road. +Across there down the road. +Oh yes! +The other side of the main path. +Mm. +Oh I see! +That's a lovely picture! +I like that! +What were you doing there ? +Well he had a birthday at the school pool. +Ah, +But I'm sure you put more are you? +Oh. +What tha , and this is a good way to keep them isn't it? +Yeah. +Yes. +They don't smudge then do they then? +You what love? +They don't smudge do they? +And they +No, that's right. +and you're talking about the clear stuff going to all +Mm. +sort +Keeps them clean. +Ah yes, that's right. +Mm. +That's a lovely picture with those three ponies aren't they? +Mm. +Yes, they're Shetland. +Yes i , I thought they were! +Yeah. +But I'm not clever enough to say for sure, so I keep my mouth shut. +Mm. +Yes. +That's a nice one too, they're gorgeous pictures! +Now this is the farm now is it? +Is that +That's when I were +. +Ah yes. +Oh yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Oh they're . +Erm, that was black and we used to wash it. +Ah yes. +Oh that one really looks as though it's +Yes. +cuddling. +Yes ! +Isn't that ni , and this one too! +I think +Yes. +they're actually +Cuddling theirselves. +They're cuddling each other aren't they? +Yeah. +And you come in the middle. +Yes ! +Yes. +Here are the ones I took. +They're his fir they're +He's,his first taken picture there. +Oh yes. +Ooh yes! +Yeah. +Are they? +Mm! +That was on a video camera. +What he , what else can you do at school as extras +besides +That one. +photography? +Your first pic +Erm we play +And these ones. +sports, erm +What are they, they? +Erm +Where do I put them? +I've been in two er art +Put them back over there. +rooms, taught drawing and that erm there's a youth club we can go to and that's got sort of, table tennis and snooker. +Is that in the Shalom Centre? +Yeah. +I go there every Tuesday for PT. +It's a nice room. +I'm one of those old ladies who +Yeah. +do PT ev every afternoon! +But he he he, you see, he didn't go to them last September. +Oh I see. +Ah +Mm. +yes! +They don't know much of what we can do +That's right. +there's only a few of these things we know, you know? +And of course, as you get older you'll be able to do more won't you? +Yeah. +That's good. +Erm, they do play some sport, but it's all the older ones that do that. +But not many of the seventh years the year I am +No. +don't got to +No. +go out now cos there's more older ones doing it. +And so when you have your er, your sort of recreation afternoon what game do you play? +Er +Or don't you? +You play rugby don't you? +Yeah. +We play lacrosse hockey and +Rugby +erm and we've just started rugby. +Have you? +So you do those +Yeah. +already? +We sort of take it in turns of doing each sport with different PE teachers. +I see. +Aha. +And providing the weather's good, you like it? +Yes. +Aha. +But then +But it's not on there. +I'll have about erm +Don't make too much noise will you? +basketball, netball. +Laying in the kitchen. +Basketball's good +Go and see +but it's easier when you're taller +Yeah. +isn't it? +You get nearer to the baskets. +Yeah, and +That's right. +we, I've had when we go down, on Thursdays we go to the sports hall sometimes if it's wet and erm we're to erm do things the teachers and I er, have tried a bit of basketball but I ain't got it into +Mm. +the net! +No. +No. +It isn't i , you've got to get the knack haven't +Yeah. +you? +You've gotta be pretty tall to jump up. +It's easier when you are tall. +That's true. +But you like tho , the idea of it do you? +Yes. +Aha. +It's not so rough as some things, it's not so rough as rugby but perhaps you don't mind being a bit rough do you? +No I don't, no. +They like it rough whe when they're young +He practised on Helen! +like that! +They do! +Yes. +They do, yes. +See more, don't see no fear like we do when they're young. +No they don't. +That's true. +That's that's our cat who just died. +Ah! +Oh! +Do look here, that's Panda and that was my cat +Mhm. +and every morning, he's a , jump up on my chair. +Yes. +Did he? +Yeah je , when I was having breakfast he used to jump on the table! +Oh my word! +They're used to be one, one of them what got killed used to, he used to ride his bike up and down the path here and sh , as start, he'd get on his bike, she'd run down to that bush down there and then get there before him and then, soon as he start to come back he was running back and beat him! +Really? +Yeah, well that's only he went up and down there. +They're lovely aren't they when they're li +And she'd got +when they're intelligent like that? +Yeah. +Yeah. +While I'm digging that garden she used to go out roll in the trench what I'd dug and soon as I went in for a drink she was in there before me! +She'd beat him in the kitchen! +And er +I think cats can be lovely! +Oh yes. +We and i it's, when we had sprouts it used to get its hind legs and pull them down and start ploughing at them. +Really? +And then when +And they'd pull the sprouts up +Yeah, but what about erm what, what it keep doing with your sprouts? +Oh the , sprouts got you in the bath, went to and er kitchen to clean the sprouts, chuck them in a bowl I thought that's funny, I didn't chuck that one in there! +Course, I was looking out the window and I know he took I picked it out and it I looked again, there's another one in there, course she's only getting out the bath put them in a bowl like I was! +I can't believe my own eyes! +No! +And as soon as I went to get sprouts off a garden, she'd be on there, won't she, would? +Yeah. +She'd pull them off the stalks. +Really? +Yeah. +And just, she was playing ball in other words wasn't she? +Yeah. +Oh, yeah, yeah! +And erm we made it little to , potatoes and then dig them up what you don't want +Yes. +you could chuck them for her and she used to go after them. +Did she? +Yeah. +Oh how sweet! +Was she the one that was killed? +Yeah. +That's a shame isn't +Mm. +it? +But, was it on this main road? +No, she was fine that one was. +Oh that's +No, that's Whisky what was killed on the main road who done that, +Ah, ah Whisky, so was that er, other one what we had. +Yeah. +Milly done it as well. +Yes. +Really? +Milly, yes. +Milly. +That was her daughter. +Oh I see. +I see. +And was it on the main road that the one who was killed +Yeah, we go had one killed a school teacher down here killed one of them. +When was that? +Ain't erm about three weeks ago weren't it? +Two weeks ago. +Panda. +That was Panda. +Another one killed on the main road as well. +It's heartbreaking! +Wonder who that was? +I know. +We would love to have erm +we'd love to have a cat but +Yes , well er +partly it's a tie if we're wanting to go out. +And i in a way it is +But not +But also it's er, it's it's too risky on that road. +It is too risky! +Well it weren't exactly the school teacher's fault cos Panda jumped out of the hedge into the lights from the cemetery cos she liked to go mousing up there. +Ah, what a shame! +And when she come and knocked on the door she was upset more than we was cos she done it didn't +Ah +she? +yes. +Yeah. +Yes, well it is upsetting. +It's +Mm. +upsetting +Yeah. +to you to lose a cat isn't it? +Yeah, and it's erm like our other one, she used to go hunting up there and she's across the main road +No don't worry about it. +and onto the fields. +Aha. +But erm so far Betty, she's alright, she sort of looks and +It's amazing, some cats will get an instinct +Yeah, aye that's yeah, yeah. +won't they? +Mm, yeah. +We had one that was very canny +Mm. +about the road. +But we had one killed on the road too. +Well we had one +So she +what used to do the sprouts didn't I? +Yes, +Honestly, that's tremendous! +That's terribly funny! +Mm. +That really is. +Oh she was a character that one! +Was she? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well they all were really, they all had +Yeah. +their different +Yeah. +their different characteristics +Yeah. +cos I mean Pimple used to erm +used to run and +have +anywhere. +see Len come along, used to run and jump up at, onto his shoulder and go round the garden shoulders! +Really? +Yes. +Yeah. +Oh he and coming up that passage, run and jump right up on me by getting up my shirt. +Well when Panda , when you were peeling potatoes she sort of lying on your back when you was bending there like that. +Yeah that's it ! +Yes ! +A good place to be! +Yeah. +I I like cats better than dogs because +Yes. +I think dogs want a fuss made of them, cats don't really. +No, no no +The , there's a way of +they don't like , they don't like +They're independent. +a lot of fuss. +No. +They're much more independent. +Yes. +Apparently, she sort of +lays on that hearth +right, and right in front of the fire and their two feet sort of on guard sitting, and his down like that. +Feeling the fire. +Yeah. +Yes ! +Yeah. +Let's see how you've been getting on. +Do you get at school any erm any sort of music lessons? +Erm yes. +On Thursdays I go to music lesson and erm, we have this singing contest erm, we come second out of the first years, and we sung Mole in a Hole. +Good! +Erm at dinner times you can go into the music room erm you can play on any music instrument you like there's keyboards erm, violins guitars erm drums. +I tried to play on the drums, I'm not too good at that. +They make a terrible noise don't they ? +Yeah. +Erm Only trouble, there's a snare drum you can turn it onto snare or ordinary but when you have it on snare, if you play or anything it rattles! +Is it erm, is a snare the thing that co , the sort of wire that goes across it? +Yeah. +And what does that do? +Erm, well it makes erm a lighter so , makes the drum sound to a lot of lighter sounds. +Oh I see. +But erm, when you play music and you keep it on snare the wires keep rattling. +Ah yes. +So, you have to erm pull this erm, little lever at the side and that that'll turn the snare bit off they can play on there erm there's the choir, erm +Are you in the choir? +Erm, no I don't know much about it yet, we haven't I've only just been told about it by a friend who I sit next to on the bus. +You've only been there I think a ba , a term haven't you? +Yeah. +So tha , yes. +Mhm. +So we don't know much about it yet, but on Thursdays we get, we've got taught how to play erm a keyboard and been taught a little bit about reading music. +But +Good! +erm, I can't read it too well cos I've only had about couple of lessons on it. +Yes. +It needs practice doesn't it? +Yeah. +Of course, being in the choir it gives you practice reading music because you just have one line to follow +Yeah. +and that's a good start isn't it? +Aha +I have heard erm some choir, the choir sing a little bit cos erm we got a corridor near the music hall and erm they sing up pretty loud so you can hear it. +Cos there's erm er machine in there what you can get erm fo food from right, so I go down there sometimes +Yes. +get something out the machine and listen to the music in there. +Nice! +Good! +I think it's a good school don't you? +Yeah, it's pretty good but erm the older ones think they run it a bit! +Yes. +But, there's, some of them are alright. +I got some erm friends up there who are in fourth and fifth year +Mm! +so and they then erm I have got some friends I used to know as the little school but they've left now. +Oh! +Erm, they just went on to their fifth form +Yes. +so don't see them around much. +Mm. +Erm I know a boy erm Rickie who just lives up our road +Mm. +erm ho , I know him so I go and see him sometimes. +That's good! +Mhm. +But I don't see him that much because he go and play sports on the +Yes. +field. +Yes. +And then they're just not available to play at home th those +No. +times. +No, that's right. +You always find wherever you are that the people who've been there a long time get sort of erm a bit uppity, they think that they're +Yeah. +the bosses of everything. +But of course, one of these days you'll be at the top of the school won't +Yes. +you ! +A lot of erm them, cos erm we're up, we're in the upper sort of thing, we're in the upstairs in a form room, so when we walk downstairs to erm down to a lesson they come barging up there and pushing out of the way! +Yes. +And that's the only trouble about it. +That's not very nice when you're a bit smaller than they are. +No. +Aha. +Erm they try and erm erm sort of push you out the way and tell you to get lost! +Yes. +Yes. +But erm +Well when you're big, that's the thing to remember and you won't push +Yeah. +the little ones around perhaps +No. +will you? +I got to , when I was going to the little school I got told the little ones. +Mm. +But they erm I was used to it, used to it cos erm +Mm. +I got a lot of little cousins and that +Oh of course, yes! +So you know what it's like being small +Yeah. +too. +And what about all this gardening then? +I was very interested when you were talking about gardening this morning. +Erm +Well +you don't do any gardening, I suppose at school? +Erm, no, I wish we could have a garden, sort of thing, like we mi , where mum used to go and have a garden but it don't +Mm mm. +now. +Mm. +Erm +But still, you don't need a a garden at school, you've got the, really the whole of that garden at home. +Yeah, so +Because your father can't do much now can he? +Erm no, he does help me a few things but I do all the digging for him because he can't bend down too much. +Yes. +Erm I told him he ought to get erm, one of these rotovators and a plough underneath +Ah ha ha ! +but he said it's too much money cos they're +Yes. +Yes. +a few thousand pound now. +I suppose so! +And really and truly you've got to have a very big piece of ground to need one of those haven't you? +Yeah. +I think you're a very good forker and spader really! +Yeah, ah well erm when I was younger I used to watch dad so when he put his seeds out I used to erm get the erm erm erm, spade and sort of keep digging them up,se seeds up +so I got, I got to know how to use them by then then then erm while I've got older dad got another piece of ground what he's given up now +Mhm. +erm he , we used to go up there. +Where was that er +Erm +Ben? +up our road and very first house, number one, he had a big bit of garden +Oh I see. +erm but after a few months dad gave it up cos it was erm too wet and that where weeds could grow easily +Ah yes. +and we keeps erm digging it up and weeds keep growing. +Yes. +We had potatoes in there for a time but we had to keep hoeing all the weeds out. +No, and of course the weeds will have a +Yeah, they +a fine old time won't they? +Yeah. +Aha. +But your ground, I imagine you've kept it fairly cre , free of weeds for quite a +Yeah. +time now? +Erm on our some of our small plants we don't use any erm sprays or +No. +we use erm a rake or a and we draw across the seeds and that'll ra , bring out the weeds. +Yes. +I done that on my wheat this afternoon erm but we have to use fertiliser on ours cos +Mm. +we don't have to sort of, ain't gotta take really too much muck +Mm. +Yes. +cos we do half, we muck erm I've grown pretty well +Mm. +so it gives the plants a boost +Yes. +so we don't have too much muck so, and like put some fertiliser on the other bits. +I see. +Because, in fact, you can't put that compost on the, or that muck on the, when you say muck, do you mean the compost that you make with the vegetables? +Yeah. +Yes. +Erm, you can't put that on till it's really broken down can you? +No. +So it's erm you use up probably quite quickly what you've got. +Yes, erm all our sort of cabbage stalks and beans stalks go onto the muck heap to turn into a sort of compost, but other people they just sort of burn or take them away and buy a bag of compost. +Yes. +But erm bought bags of compost aren't so good cos if you use all er, stuff you're growing you put erm it back onto the ground +Mm. +Mm. +what's come off the ground. +Mm, yes. +Yes, it seems reasonable doesn't it, to put it all back? +It's all been natural stuff hasn't it? +Yes. +Aha. +Which bit of the gardening do you like best? +Well erm the best bit, I like harvesting, I don't like the digging is alright but it hurt your back so +Yes. +You get yo wo once you've done a lot you suddenly +Yeah. +feel it don't you? +But the hoeing is nice and easy +Yeah, okay. +more or less. +Mm. +We got erm various sorts of hoes. +We got a Dutch hoe, that's +Mm. +pretty easy to use. +Nice! +And erm, we got another hoe oh er, I don't like using it cos it's got wood and it keeps giving me splinters! +It's got, oh really, that's the handle is it, that does +Yeah. +that? +Hiya Ben! +Ho +Hello. +Hello. +We've got a hoe that what is that hoe called, that we've got Noel? +It's got these prongs that go like that. +Oh, what's +Erm +that for? +Oh yeah, I've got one of them. +Have you got one of them? +Because they get, the weeds out quite deeply don't they? +Er, oh yes. +Erm , I got two of them. +Mm! +I bought one erm I think it was a year or two back then our next door neighbour di , well no, it was before she died, she gave me one. +Nice! +Mhm. +So I got quite a lot of old tools, really old ones +Yes. +dad's got loads of old ones, what he use +Has he? +I like them better than the modern ones. +Do you? +Yes th , there's something nice about the old tools isn't there? +Yes, cos they +We've got one hoe that's at least two hundred years old! +Yes. +Yeah , yeah. +And we've, but only found the middle part +Mm. +and I had it sharpened by Hector +Yes. +and now it's as good as new! +You can see it afterwards. +Yes, where erm my next neighbour gave me some stuff erm, then I went into her shed cos she had erm, some mice problems so dad went in there to have a look round, seeing the poison were wore off and we found quite a lot of old gardening chu , tools. +Ooh did you? +Cos erm her husband was a farmer we found a lot of old really old ploughshares like +Yes. +that. +Yes. +I found an old plough wheel, I still got that at home. +I like keep an antique stuff like that. +Oh yes, it's interesting! +Aha. +Erm and, she had some erm chicken ho er,hoppers that erm she had +Chicken hoppers? +Yes, erm used to put, you put feed in them +Oh yes. +and they soon get erm but they had plastic ones and they have lights on them. +Really? +Yeah, but they smell! +Oh, do they? +Yeah, erm when we're up the farm when er, after a few days we put the feed in them they smell. +Oh that's not nice is it? +No, cos all the plastic sort of +Yes, that's because they've got a light on them isn't it? +Yeah. +Yes some erm some light, electric light fittings are made of plastic and they like bad fish after +Yeah. +a time don't they? +It's horrid! +Yeah, erm when we went in there for a few times used to get headaches and that. +Yes, nasty! +Yeah, but the weather was cold, when cold that er, it took away some of the smell +Mhm. +but as they got muddier it worsened. +Yes. +I in the end it gets yuck! +Yeah. +Erm the really old sheds they're better than the new ones that +Yes. +Mm. +erm they er, they're cool in the summer and warm in the winter. +Mm. +Mm. +For that stuff. +That's an advantage? +Yeah. +I've erm dad had a lot of old gardening to , tools up in er his shed when he was up but when we when dad retired he was going to erm take them, but he forgot about them +Ah! +and they left them up there. +Oh dear! +So, I don't know wha , we, he did get some but erm a lot of them he wished he'd brought +Yes. +and left the other ones. +Oh dear! +He brought the wrong ones he thought! +Oh that's +Yeah. +hard-liners isn't it? +Yeah. +And where do you keep all this stuff? +You haven't got a shed have you, in the back? +We got two, one was an old erm air dru , no one of them erm, bomb shelter type things +Oh yes, Anderson shelter! +Yeah. +Mm. +And er we had a wooden shed it blew down in a gale so my Nana, she bought us a shed +Oh! +for a present. +Oh that's nice! +So we put that up. +We keep some tools in it. +We put our cat in there cos she like going in there and we have some ta , we put seed and that down there. +Our other sh shed we put all the tools and +Yes. +To keep them out of the weather. +You've just got to have somewhere to put them haven't you? +Yes. +Aha. +Cos erm well if you leave them lying about they'll rust easily. +Yes. +Now that's quite true. +Well you're quite an experienced gardener, it seems to me Ben! +You must of learned a lot from your father by now? +Yes, erm I get erm some mags, ah erm gardening magazines and I look at them. +Oh yes, that's useful! +Mhm. +Erm , dad tells me a lot about it cos he started gardening when he was young. +Yes. +He got a lot taught a lot off granddad. +Mhm. +Erm, so it sort of originated in our family. +That's right, a family thing, you hand it down from generation to generation +Yes. +don't you? +And the books of , are useful because there are lots of new ideas have come up +Yes. +as you go along. +Erm er mum gets some for me on Wednesdays sometimes, when she goes to Framlingham. +There's various ones I read I had one from the library, it was a big one +Mhm. +erm I was reading about carrots, so I didn't get to finish it cos we only had two weeks. +Erm little window box ones. +Mhm. +Er, what you grow in a window boxes. +The little +Mm mm. +erm short ones, and they're sweet. +Yes. +Carrots? +Yeah. +Yes, some of them are nearly round +Yeah. +they're so small! +Yes. +Aren't they? +Tha look, they look funny to me! +And when I erm, first got them cos my granny got me some for a birthday present +Aha. +erm when we've dug them up I I didn't think they looked like carrots until we had +No. +them. +That's right they, and they must be a bit fiddly to peel mustn't they? +To scrape, rather. +Yeah. +Instead of a nice long scrape, you've got to go round corners haven't you? +Yeah I keep, when I I I always scrape the vegetables sometimes but when I do though I keep cutting my fingers! +Ugh, yes, yes! +So I gave them to dad to do. +Ha! +What's the idea of those little carrots? +I don't know. +Er erm, there's only been last year that I've grown them +Yes. +so I don't know much about them yet. +Did you like the taste of them? +Yes they're, they're nice and sweet. +Are they? +Mm. +Erm other carrots, erm they don't grow that well, I don't think so anyway. +No. +Well there's so many things that get into carrots aren't there? +There's a wa , a wire worm or something? +Yes erm +And carrot fly. +Is carrot fly the thing that goes for carrots or not? +Erm, yes tha , that will come in really bad! +Mm. +Slugs, erm they'll +Mm. +go after carrots and potatoes. +Mm. +Erm one year we got no end of slugs! +Erm leatherjackets, they're bad for them. +Oh yes! +Mm. +Erm so when you sort of dig the ground up you have to chuck them out the way. +Yes. +Cos they'll, they'll work their way back in. +I'm sure. +Start eating the plants and that. +The plants. +Yes. +Yes. +That's why I say nature works against you instead of with you. +Yeah. +So I don't bother! +Don't you put any lime on them? +Erm well we have tried it once erm but we put soot on them because they'll so +Yes, soot is supposed to be good for something. +Yes. +Erm, that will sa , that will stick to them and erm they will that will make them feel ill so they +Yes. +die. +Yes. +And erm, soot's good for the ground. +I see. +Dad used to put erm a lot on it but we had to have erm the chimney sweep at ours for quite a long time +No. +and he hadn't got any. +You'll have to get some more soot. +You'll have to get him along and you can have some more soot. +Yes. +I've forgotten what they used to use so soot especially. +My father used it, but I've forgotten what it was. +Never use it on vegetables, around vegetables to stop insects creeping too. +Does it? +It'll stop them from crawling across, +They don't like it? +just under the surface, they couldn't get . +No. +No. +Aha. +There are so many things you've got to be looking out for in those +Yes, erm I read up quite a lot of things about keeping pests away, but I don't dad reads them and tells me about them, but I forget cos they have to go back +That's right. +after so often. +Yes. +Let's see what we've got there. +Ben would like to go to Otley to do a proper +training course. +That's a very good idea Ben. +Yes. +Yes. +And so you're going to work at the things that will get you in there aren't you? +Yeah, so I will do quite a lot of erm, stuff erm I should say in geography, sort of work in geography for that things. +Erm we done a little but we hadn't done that much yet, but my sister tells me as we go , as the year go on and do a bit more about it. +Mm. +You learn about soil formations and that sort +Yeah. +of thing. +Yes. +How old are Ben? +Sorry? +How old are you Ben? +I'm twelve. +Twelve. +Mhm. +Mm. +He's a wonderful gardener for twelve, I can tell you! +Good! +Ha ha. +Erm and +And what else would help you to get into Otley? +I suppose you've got to be able to do maths for most things haven't you? +Yes, erm and when you go to Otley College they will teach you everything, so you need maths,or this erm +Yes for +measuring an an yes. +Yes erm I'm not looking forward to doing the cos they've told me about it and he used to get headaches and +Really? +Well I think that you wear masks now don't you, when you use it? +Erm, yes, erm if you haven't got a tractor you have to, but if you've got you don't have to so much. +I see. +But erm if I, when I go to a farm I don't want spray. +No? +Well it would, not very good for you would it really, because of your +No. +chest? +Mm. +Yes. +Aha. +Erm I don't mind fertiliser, that's okay. +Mm. +And but +What we were talking about, or what I think is interesting is your experience from your early days in horse shoeing has stood you in good stead for the revival of interest in driving erm if you'd like to tell us a bit more about that I'd love to hear it cos I'm never tired of that. +Yeah well er the shoeing today is completely different to what it was when I started nearly sixty year ago. +In them days horses were they were all working hors , driving horses you hardly ever see a riding horse. +Er the ones they did ride were the ones they used to drive at erm ah, down the two jars but er and that was a completely different way of life then to what that is now. +Er +Mm. +er the horses that are shod today, you see they all riding horses, no very few working horses. +Yes. +Er but now the +It's, and that's your hobby isn't it? +Yeah. +Yes. +Er where before that was the horse was equivalent for a motor today. +Yes. +So that was a living. +It did the +Er +job of a tractor, it did the +job a van a lorry +Lorry. +a car, everything! +Yeah. +Yes. +Ah , every form of transport +Transport. +when you think about it. +Yes. +Mhm. +And is it +But now +different type of horse that makes it different for shodding +Oh yes! +today? +Oh yeah! +Not the question of the same horses doing a different job. +No, that's a different type of horse er +Yes. +er, the old fashioned working horses er practically extinct. +Yes. +And the shires are still there fairly strong, still er some of course has now gone onto the rare breeds. +Mm! +Er registered you see. +Er Welsh colts and things of that nature are coming back a bit now, they are building up now er but +But would I be right in saying that the everyday working horse, the sort of, general purpose working horse that people used years ago, people such as carriers, they would use horses which were crossbreeds wouldn't they? +Not +Yeah. +not a purebred anything. +Not a pure , no! +They'd be good old heavy, honest, rough +Yeah. +Yeah, yeah. +hard working horses. +That's right. +Not things of beauty really at all. +No. +No, ooh no, no! +And you hardly ever see that type now do you? +Gypsies +No. +have them. +You still +They were +see gypsies with that sort. +built for strength +Yes. +for the +Yeah. +jobs. +Yes. +Work. +Yes. +Were they? +Yeah. +Purely for +Yeah. +work and hardiness. +And they're ornaments today, they aren't working horses. +That's right. +You put these horses into hard work today they'd be dead within three months! +Would they? +Ooh yes! +Yeah! +Yes, the whole scene has altered. +And er, as I say, observing this and watching Hector's work and how things have gone on over the years, er as you know, there's been a tremendous revival of interest in driving, so many people have er, restored carts or had new ones built and erm the young farriers who've never had the experience with driving horses, they have run into problems with erm, keeping them going soundly and overcoming problems which crop up when horses are driven on the road a lot. +Yeah. +Mm. +Would you like to tell us a bit more about that? +Well, yeah that is, I'm I mean that's a completely different er er laxing of the, it's completely different. +Er when you're riding a horse, you see the weight is all on the back er whichever tendency do and what we call the gait er +Yes. +is the hind legs in the front +Yes. +they have a tendency to open them make them wider apart +Oh yes! +by the backs. +G A I T. +That's right, that kind of gait. +By the back and swop them you see. +Well er, with a driving horse that's completely opposite because yo your vehicle behind the horse is pushing against it +Yes. +and have a tendency to punt the back +Really? +so that pushes the legs fo closer together, do you see? +Good heavens! +They're more likely to +And then they're more likely to hit, they're more likely to hit +Mm. +the front legs with the back legs +Really! +when they're going, especially going down hill. +And of course, there's a word in the trade for that isn't there? +Yeah. +Forging. +What is it? +It's what, now there's a +Forging? +completely +Yeah. +different use for the word forging. +Now, is it related to forging ahead in any way? +Oh do , is that where forging ahead comes +I +from? +When you're really pushing? +Yeah, yeah, pushing. +It might well be. +It might +Yes. +well be. +I would say the term +And, and then they can +forging ahead has come from the use of that word in relation to horses. +Yes. +Yes. +I would say, because that +Yeah, probably. +dates back many, many years doesn't +Yeah. +it? +Yeah. +Yes. +Because they +That's it. +do do it when they're pushing ahead +Yeah. +they, they hit the front foot with the hind one. +Good Lord! +Occasionally you +Yeah. +hear them do it +Oh! +when they're driving, it's quite a sharp +Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. +crack you +Yeah. +hear. +It's amazing! +Mm. +Er so that's, that's completely different do you see? +So the styling of shoeing is different. +Mm. +Completely different. +If they do it too much then the farrier's not doing a good job +Job. +and his job +Really? +is to re-balance the shoe so that er, it just misses +Miss. +the front foot as it comes forward. +If the +Right. +if the horse is travelling fast on the road he's at the trot, I mean it isn't +Yes. +the done thing for driving horses to canter or gallop on the road, they never ever should. +No. +Erm, but at the trot, when th the the legs are moving the diagonals are moving so of course the front and the hind foot come very close together +Ah that's it! +at one point in the gait +Yeah. +and if the +Yes. +shoe is slightly wrongly balanced, or the foot is slightly wrongly trimmed, then you get these troubles, you +Yeah. +also get what we call, brushing don't you? +Brushing. +When they +Tell Edith about that. +when they hit both legs together like the hind legs when they they'll hit each other they'll hit one hind leg +They really, they +with other one you see. +They really +Ooh! +wear +They give it a . +a a a sore place +Ooh yes! +on the +Yes. +Like us banging our ankles like that. +That's it. +Yes. +Yes. +Yeah. +They do it on what we call the coronet +Yeah. +which is of course the little junction between the skin and the hair. +Yeah. +Ooh! +Very tender place. +It's like the quick of our nail +Ooh yes! +where the +I can imagine! +tissue grows from. +And they do +And on the front +damage their coronet. +On the front one they do it on the knee which is the er do you see, which is higher up. +Yes. +Yeah. +But the knee comes sort of out +Out. +doesn't it? +Er inside +Yeah. +Yeah. +there's a +Yeah. +nobble +Yeah. +Yes. +on the, yes. +Yeah, yeah. +Yes. +Yeah so, and that's what they call cutting. +Mm. +Yeah. +Mm. +Really? +Yes. +Yeah. +Yes. +You'd never dream! +And so people who go and, usually into horses need to know all these or else they're going to be very unfair to the horse. +Well er +They should know about it! +They should know it. +Yes. +They should know it. +But er +But it , mainly it's the farrier's job to know. +Yes. +But course, they don't er +It's his responsibility. +they don't do enough work to really create any problems today, do you see what they're to do somebody will say ooh we'll go out for a ride +Yes. +they're out, half an hour? +Yes. +Hey? +We'll go out for a drive probably out an hour, whereas years ago the horse used to come out the stable at seven in the morning he wouldn't go back till probably five at night. +Course! +Probably later than that! +Mhm. +He'd go the driving horses, they'd probably go to Wickham market Monday do you see, the sale on the Monday they'd go to Ipswich on the Tuesday er Wednesday they'd go to Bury er and Ailsworth +Yes. +And they really earned their +Then they'd go to Norwich. +keep! +Full time job! +Ooh they worked hard! +And then they'd go to Norwich on the Saturday. +Mm. +I mean they'd, they'd, they'd be doing probably anything up to forty mile a day weren't they? +Would be. +Yeah. +Yes. +And I mean, that was six days a week! +Yes. +But now they do er twenty minutes they think they'd have done wonders! +Yes. +Or go from pub to pubs +You know. +that's about it ! +Yeah. +And you think of these , for instance Prince +Mm. +Yeah. +Phillip, who is +Yeah. +Yeah. +presumably those horses don't do long spells of that sort +No. +of driving? +No. +No. +They'll be exercised in other ways I imagine will they? +Exercised, yeah, they're exercised, normal exercise during the week and then when they do these events do you see? +But of course, if you go back far enough do you see on these four in hands were were going from town to town weren't they? +I mean, they were they were mail originally weren't they? +On the stage coaches, yes. +Mhm. +Stage coaches +Mhm. +Yes. +Er on the horses that's understandable, they can start off and probably don't knock theirself but there's a time they'd done twenty or thirty mile pulling a load. +They're tired, +They're tired +Mhm. +er, and then they start and that's when the trouble starts. +Just as we do, walking a bit less +Yes. +carefully. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yes, the same +Yeah. +thing applies. +Mm! +Exactly! +Mm! +And +What about er, in those days er, possibly a few still, when erm let's, you said gypsies didn't you? +Mm. +or let's say just erm odd tradesmen had a horse or a pony or whatever it was pulling a cart round the streets with vegetables or with, with er coal +Yeah. +or something what about the amount of care they would get from a farrier, those horses? +Well they they got reasonable care because, like I said, that was, that was the the owner knew that er that was his livelihood then +That's the thing I suppose, yes. +and he treated his horse well I mean a lot of these horseman, good horseman treated the horse better than they did the wife! +I wouldn't be surprised about that ! +Ooh yes! +Living in the East +Yes. +End, I wouldn't be surprised +Mm mm. +at that! +Oh yes! +Er and they thought of, I mean they thought the world of their their animals and but +Yes. +er when you were in the trade like mine if you didn't do a good job the man never come back to you, there was a, there was a blacksmith farrier in every village! +Yes. +Some villages had two +Mhm. +And if you didn't do the job properly you didn't get the job and if you didn't get the job you went hungry! +Course! +So that er that made you do it properly! +Yes. +Yes, they were a +And there was no there was no if you hadn't earned a shilling you'd got nothing to eat had you? +That's right. +Necessity being a good driver. +Absolutely! +Well, yeah! +Yeah. +Erm, Hector often quotes one particular instance which illustrates that very well er a as recently as your time, after you were er er shoeing +Yeah. +in your own business and everything, er people often say what did you used to charge? +And it was six and eight pence for a set of shoes on a +Six and eight pence, yes. +heavy horse, a land horse such as a Suffolk, as most of them were, erm but times were so tight that there was a farmer who used to send his horse with his horseman right past here and go another mile down the road to, to the next village to Kettleborough where there was ano , there were two farriers there +Yeah. +and one of them was doing them a halfpenny cheaper! +Ooh! +Six and seven pence halfpenny. +Halfpenny +And the farmer thought that it would +Payed him to do it. +to send them an extra mile each way and the extra +Really! +time that took to get them shod a halfpenny cheaper! +And things were as tight as that! +As tight as that? +Yeah. +Yes! +Yeah. +Yes. +Mm. +So +I suppose, now would, could that possibly be called a false economy? +What was he using up +It probably was. +time? +Well if that was, I meant that would be today +Yes. +but er in them days there was no such thing as false economy, I'd and I, economy didn't come into it +No. +else he'd of I mean +No. +er +People didn't set the same cost value on time as they +Time. +I was going to say, time +do now. +didn't count in the same +No and er +It really didn't seem to +No. +it's very funny that! +Mm. +If you're if you hadn't earned the money well you didn't go into it in detail and get the time and motion study man +No. +in to look at the job did you? +Just thought +That's right. +well we'd better pull ourselves together and see if we can put this right! +That's right. +Er you never really went into it to see where you had lost the money. +No. +No. +Er but you just grabbed a little harder so that you made ends meet +That's right. +By the result you +Yeah. +Yeah. +would see that you had to work a bit +Yeah. +harder and +There was no no working out to see how you could do anything cheaper. +No. +No. +No. +Aha. +But any economy that was made or in the early days of Hector's er business, I know, was always saving material rather than time. +Yes. +Erm and the instinct remains doesn't it? +Oh yeah! +Your your instinct is to save +a bit harder. +an odd bit of se steel or iron off a bar which the modern man would say well there's +no point in saving that because by the +That's right. +time you've looked +Yeah. +for it and found it when you want it er, it would have paid you to cut a bit off a new bar. +That's it. +Time costing as much +Yes. +as it now does. +Time now +Yeah, that's right. +is er, is the main driving thing but in your early days it was material every time. +Oh material every time! +Erm tell Edith +Labour +about some of the er er oh normal economies that were made, like, erm making odd links +Well, oh well the horse +into staples and all that sort of thing. +well the horse shoes you see, we used to we used to weld one and a half old horse shoes together in the fire to make one new one again. +Really? +Ooh yes! +They weren't thrown +One turned the other way on top +We +of the other? +used to get one shoe and a ta , in the middle so that, so that cut the half new one +Yes. +turn it over on itself then the other one we used to half +Oh! +and put the other piece in between the two and make a sandwich +Golly yes! +so you'd got a piece that shape, half new one +Yes. +and that was all welded together in the fire into a straight bar +And then you'd start all over again! +and then you'd start all over again! +Oh I see. +You didn't use +Mm. +that as a shoe you then +Re +made it an a new +Re-shape it. +piece of metal? +Yes. +And then +Yes. +yeah, and then re re-used it to shoe. +Mm. +Made another shoe out of a +That's right +er +yes. +And that was a genuine economy then. +Oh yeah! +Yeah. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +Er +Erm +old cart tyres we used to split them up the middle and made shoes. +Did you? +Oh yes! +Er +Because they were made of the right kind of iron? +Yeah. +Er +And erm +you see, we used to when old shoes do you see, you could only use them a certain number of times by welding them up +Yes. +er after they got so you hadn't got no more life in them we used to weld short bits onto . +Really? +Yeah. +Still all done in the fire. +Yeah. +Wired? +Old chains +And +when they wore thin on the end and we had to put a new link in we never threw the two halves of the link away, we pointed them and made them into staples. +Really? +Because the middle part of the link wasn't worn you see, that was still a good bit of metal in it. +Yes, course. +Yeah. +Isn't it tragic to think how far from that we've moved? +Yes , it is really. +Yeah, mm. +Yes, it's +And it's so wasteful u +it's all throw away +Yeah. +now isn't it? +Yes. +Yeah. +It seems morally wrong. +It hurts us +Yeah. +who've known +Yes. +the other thing doesn't it? +Yes it does! +Yeah, yeah. +Mm. +It goes against the grain terribly! +And I am if at five minutes to five, or five minutes to leaving off time whatever it was and you wouldn't say well we'll get ready to go home you had to pick a half a link up make it into a staple and throw it in the box. +Yes. +That was ready for next time and you've saved +That was ready for when Yeah. +that time. +Mm. +Yeah. +Yes. +I forget what it was you used to make old horse rasps into because for +Ooh yes! +farrier has a, has a file with very, very coarse teeth on one side +That's right. +and slightly less coarse on the other +Yes. +is used for rasping the the hoof erm I can't remember what you used +We used to use all sorts of things. +used the old ones for. +Hooks, flashers. +Because that's a special hard steel isn't it? +It's hard steel, now. +It's not ordinary iron is it? +They used to use, make them into flashers and hooks for hedge cutting and +Mm. +hoes for chopping out sugar +Mm. +beet. +Yes, because of course you had all the equipment to shape it up anew +Yeah. +didn't you? +Yeah. +Mm. +You could make whatever sort of shape you wanted from it I should +Yeah. +imagine . +Yep! +Mm. +Yeah. +That's an i ,i interesting thing talking about the names of the tools too erm flashers and hooks, now in other parts +Now you never hear that. +of the country you would probably hear them called a slasher and a what? +I mean, nearly all people think a hook is a hook don't do, for hanging +Yes. +things on? +Mm. +Yes. +Well in Suffolk you see, a hook is a thing for cutting the hedge. +Yes +A hooker. +a a curved scy a sickle type +A , yeah. +shaped thing. +Yes. +Yes. +Or a chopper. +Mm. +Yes. +Yeah. +I see. +And you just call that a hook? +A hook, yeah. +So you di , did you call the thing you were doing hooking or not? +What er +Wi with hook, would you say +When you were using it +that you were hooking +No you'd be +the hedge or not? +You'd be hedging. +You're hedging. +Yeah, hedging them. +Yes, I see. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yeah, +The tool was a separate name? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Really? +Aha. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And did you have to repair things, well you probably did, er farm instruments, I don't mean the big implements but things like their scythes and what +Oh yes! +have you? +We used to ma , we used to buy the scythe blade and +Well that was the blacksmith's bread and butter, that kind of thing. +and do all the other iron work on it, you see, yes. +Yes. +Oh yes! +Mhm. +Yeah. +Hoes and things like that were all er hand made. +Ha! +Spuds, dock spuds thistle spuds. +Have you come across a spud? +Now how do you spell that, S P A D +It would be G D. +G E. +Yeah. +I think it would be S P U D +D, yeah. +Yes? +Oh just a s +Yes? +Spud. +Yes. +Sped? +Spud. +I think so. +I think so. +Really? +Yeah. +Th , it's a dialect word really. +Oh not erm, not a spadge Yo er +No. +I heard the name spadge when I was +No, it would be spud wouldn't it? +No,spud. +Really? +Yeah. +It's probably in the dialect book, I haven't looked it up. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yeah. +I'm rather +And another good old word is the crome, now er that was one I came across for the first time when I came into Suffolk, the crome. +I jolly soon learnt what a crome was, I didn't ask I waited to find out. +learn a foreign language +Yes. +isn't it? +Yes. +Yes. +What, what was that? +Well a a +Mm mm. +crome is a +He couldn't believe I didn't know what a crome was! +that's ooh ah +well either two or four times er turned down on a long handle for pouring things er out of the, I mean like, when I used to +I know what it is now. +when they used to put er the muck on the fields they used to put so many loads of eight and so many heaps of the well, when they pulled it out of the room they'd pulls out the crome. +Like a fork bent at right angles. +Angles. +Oh! +It's the ideal thing for that +job +Yes. +you see. +Yes. +A fork , only bent over. +I see! +Mhm. +And the old +Yes. +the real old gardeners and I mean well every house had one because they used to grow their own vegetables didn't they? +That's right. +Well when they dug the garden, after they'd dug it they always cromed it down with a crome before they planted anything. +Really? +Used the crome as the rake. +Aha. +Now could that be +Mm mm. +the same sort of thing that Noel bought last year when he saw one of the men in the village, using it to pull out a lot of weed from undergrowth, really +I expect so. +I expect so. +it's er,i and it's got three prongs like that, and there's, I think, an arrowhead shape on each prong. +Ah that'd be the modern ones. +Yes. +Yes, that would be +Yes. +the modern +The modern one, but er +adaptation. +Yeah. +Yes. +That'd be the modern one. +Similar principle. +Yes. +Sim sim +Mhm. +Yes. +Yeah. +It is +Yeah. +erm, for getting up a lot +Yes. +of weed? +Yes. +Yeah. +The old style crome would be a thing about as wide as that +Yeah, about ten +What about +ten inches wi and the +Mhm. +would be +Yes and and the would be parallel +Parallel. +four times, wouldn't they? +Four. +And e , equally distanced. +Fo for that work. +Ah yes! +Mhm. +But for pulling the muck out of the tumble they only have two. +Oh! +Two tines. +Did they? +Yeah. +More like a pitch fork bent at right angles then? +But bent at right angles. +Yes. +That would be a muck crome? +That'd be a muck +Yes. +crome. +Yeah. +And was a lot of straw in with that? +Oh that was all straw, do you +Ah! +see? +Because otherwise you couldn't have pulled +No. +er, sort of muck without +No no. +No. +straw could you? +No , no. +No. +But straw +Yeah. +of course. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Yeah. +And the tines on a muck crome are flat, whereas the ones on an ordinary one for all the work were either round or square. +I see. +Yeah. +Yes. +So I came across these things you see when we were first married because I used to write out all Hector's bills for him, by hand before we had a typewriter +Mhm. +and of , I'd come across these words you see, I'd think crome? +Crome, what is that? +You know ! +Yes. +Even to spell it +And gradually the +in the first place +Yeah. +you needed +So I had to +to know. +yeah, so I did have to guess a great deal +Mm. +because no good looking in the dictionary for a lot of these things. +No. +No, no, no +Mm. +no. +no. +No. +I assumed that a crome was C R O M E, and I still do! +Yes. +cos I've never come across anything else! +Well I mean all the, all the all the dialect words are +Phonetic really +spelt +aren't they? +They have to be! +They're spelt as you say them. +They have to be! +They are , that's true. +Mm mm! +They are phonetic. +They're spelt how you say them so they can be spelt er ten different ways in the same village! +And still be right! +That's right, I see. +Because there's no there's no dictionary spelling +Cos I mean, I'd +for a lot of them. +well I I spells how I say it. +Mm. +Yes. +Er somebody up the road er hundred yards would spells how he +Mm. +say it. +I I used to notice that +And there's just that little bit of +It was phonetic spelling! +Yes! +Yeah! +Yeah. +When the cards were, from the er, the workshop would come in which the lads had done their work, I mean, one of them, I know dear old Pete, in particular, he'd write for crome, C R double O M, because that's how he'd say it. +Croom. +Yes! +Yeah , croom. +Yes! +Yes. +But it's still right. +Yes! +And very often the O, in the Suffolk dialect goes to an ooh doesn't it? +Ooh yes! +Yeah. +Yes! +Yes. +Mhm. +Home. +Eith either a long ooh, or a sort ooh, like er, like in +It's as a +room or +mostly a short one because +Mm. +that's a lazy language the Suffolk dialect innit? +I suppose it is in a way. +I suppose a lot +You cu +of dialect is. +cut out this +Yes it is isn't it? +cut everything short don't you? +Yes. +Mm. +Oh yeah. +Yes you do. +Yes. +But it's quite different from the unpleasantly lazy speech that you get now, for instance, Lancashire i it's +Yes. +not true Lancashire that's spoken up there, it's a lazy you +Yes. +know up the city +Yes +Yeah. +yes, yes, yes. +that sort of thing. +Nothing like over +Yes. +No. +here +No. +dialect. +Yeah, same as the erm what you get from the outskirts of London, the home counties, I call +Yes. +that ugly too! +It is! +True cockney is a treat to listen to. +That's right. +But there's a lot of adulterated cockney in the home counties, I used to hear it a lot in Hertfordshire. +Yes. +Erm, especially in the war because the evacuees of course, would come along and of course +Yes. +all the local children picked it up, of course they did! +And we'd all go home talking like them and our mothers complained ! +Er, but it was interesting all the same. +It was interesting to hear them. +Indeed! +Yes. +But that a thousand do you see a the dialects are going +Yes. +and they'll soon be gone and one thing which annoyed me er a Scotsman or a Welshman or an Irishman can go on television they'll accept them and they can talk their +You mean as a newsreader or a a presenter of programme +lingo, as a newsreader, as a presenter +don't you? +Exactly! +Mm. +and yet, if anybody go on there with a southern dialect they wouldn't well they wouldn't have them there! +That's true, isn't it? +Cos they aren't talking the queen's English! +It's taking a +Yes. +long time for dialects to be accepted but I think I think that boundary is giving way +Well I hope +frankly. +it will universally because +Mm mm. +I feel the Scots make a tremendous fuss about their +Mm. +speech and +Mm. +Yeah. +their traditions! +Mm. +Yeah. +You never hear on the whole the Englishman saying but I'm English! +Mm. +No. +No you don't. +We're +Do you? +We're too +No, no. +self-effacing aren't we? +And yet they'll a +But they +they'll accept the big proposals +Mm. +of television and radio +Yes! +Yes! +and that . +Yes. +That's right. +Top jobs for them! +Mm. +But when you te +And yet if you go for a top job in the city or anywhere an and start talking in the southern dialect they'll you. +Yeah, you're, you're made a laugh of aren't you? +Absolutely! +Yes. +That's very true! +It is extraordinary! +It's also true that up in +Mm. +Scotland they don't like to hear English accents on their television and news. +Well I never! +They much prefer to have their own people. +Ooh! +But how often do we listen to a Scottish accent? +Scot yeah! +And every time a trade unionist comes on. +Mm. +I'm afraid +Yeah. +we've got a little phrase, another +Yeah. +bloody Scot we say! +Yeah. +Yeah , yeah well you do! +Yeah. +And then you've got them +You do! +with the roughest of the +Yes! +the trade +Yeah. +unionists! +Yes! +Yeah. +pretty well Scot +Yeah, that's always +They are! +They are! +Yeah. +Yes. +Yes. +So we've been perhaps a little +Mhm. +bit erm reticent +Yeah. +about our dialects. +Yes. +Er Yes, yes. +I I +But er +think it's time they +But I'm not gonna change, if anybody don't, but if they can't accept me +No, I don't really think so ! +well they must er +Well er , you can't say that it's hard to understand because I'm a Londoner and +Yeah. +for a long time I have been +Yeah. +and you never say anything that I don't understand, unless you were to use a word like crome. +Well quite +Oh yeah. +a word, an +Yeah +actual word +Yes. +Yeah. +that you've never come across. +Yeah. +Mm. +But after all, once is enough, and once you know, you know don't you? +Exactly! +You don't forget. +No! +No. +Erm +You don't. +No. +No I +That's right. +I found coming into Suffolk from Hertfordshire I hadn't heard the, any East Anglian dialect before at all erm I didn't find it difficult, there were only two cases and I can remember thinking there were two people er, one of whom is still alive, er who I had great difficulty in understanding and I thought when I can follow both of them without any difficulty I shall know I really belong. +Yes. +And, it didn't take long with one of them, that was Dennis +Mm, Dennis . +and the other one, I don't know whether you knew him, I think he lived in Earlsome for a time didn't he? +No, well Monksome +Didn't he? +Monksome +Monksome +Erm, a chap called Ben erm +No, I don't +No. +I expect he was days before +and my word he was difficult to follow! +Was he? +Yeah. +Yes. +Er he spoke fast, that was the problem, most +Oh yes! +Suffolk people don't. +No, they don't. +They give you time to listen and time to think +They do. +but he spoke quickly with a very strong accent and that +Yes. +took me a lot of years before I could and I was so pleased when once I was able to say to you I've Ben had been in the shop and we'd had a chat hadn't we? +Yeah. +You and me and him and Joe , was another +Yeah. +one and we'd had a chat for a long, long time and I said to him afterwards, I was able to understand everything he said! +Wonderful! +I was so pleased ! +That's an achievement ! +Yes ! +You know one thing that's striking me at this moment actually, when you talk about when you came into Suffolk and you +Mm mm. +met er, Hector and you told me once before you had no eyes for anyone else there. +That's right. +Perfectly true! +Erm , in these days when er, so large a proportion of marriages breaks down +Mm. +erm it seems to me that the marriage that has an interest to your occupation, let's say, in the man's hands +Mhm. +if you like +Mhm. +er, although you've got your own artistic contribution which you also combine with +True, yes. +Hector's work +That has been a great +erm +strength to us. +Oh, I think that's a a tremendous +Yes. +strength to a marriage! +Yes. +Yes. +I feel the same with Noel +Yes. +if there's something really interesting that you have +Yes. +between the two +Yeah. +of you +Yes. +Yeah. +erm, you don't give up at the first little hurdle. +Course you don't! +No, No. +No +It makes an incredible bond doesn't it? +Doesn't it? +Absolutely! +Yeah. +I feel that. +Yes! +Yeah. +Yes. +Makes it a good recipe for a good marriage. +Ooh yes! +Yeah. +Yes. +It really does! +And I th , I think about a great deal because it's a very strange, it's a very strange thing to talk about but when I came to Suffolk, I might have told you this before er, I had hardly been away from home at all, I was only seventeen when I first met him +Mm. +and I had a very sheltered life, I was an only child, I hadn't been around much, I hadn't stayed away from home erm and I came to Suffolk to visit a girl penfriend who was working at Brandeston Hall and erm she at that time was expecting to get engaged to a chappy in the village here who was, and still is a friend of Hector's and ours, and they didn't marry in the finish but she at that time wanted me to come up to Suffolk to see her and to meet this chappy who she thought she was going to marry and erm so, it was holiday from the art school where I was and I thought well why not? +I'll erm, I'll venture and, and my parents said yes, that would be alright and so er so I came along and erm of course, it happened that he was in the he was in the forge talking to Hector on the first evening I came and that was how we met. +Mm. +And erm,i it was an extraordinary thing! +But added to that, I can well remember staying at Kettleborough Chequers erm and er walking along from Kettleborough to Brandeston erm th the very next morning after I'd come here and I think it was before I think it was quite likely before we had we had actually met, I don't know whether it was the first day or the second +Yeah, +that we met in in the shop there +but the strong impression I had is walking over the hill from Kettleborough where the gun club now is walking down into this valley and seeing that view of this little end of the village nestling in the hollow and I can remember feeling a extraordinarily strong sensation that I could easily live there +Yes. +I could belong there +Yes. +and I had never felt it anywhere else and I've never felt it since! +Isn't that wonderful! +But it, there was something that felt right. +I yes, I really believe in that +Yes. +feeling! +A sense of belonging. +Most extraordinary! +I belong here. +Yes. +Yes. +Because I hadn't been around much, I hadn't been away from home +Really? +and i it was quite forcible! +Yes. +And er +Marvellous! +Yes. +I think if one's receptive to things like that +Yes. +you know, it si , it +Yes. +it strikes you +Yes. +doesn't it? +Yes +Mm. +It does. +And er +There was a rightness about it. +And you don't forget it because +No! +you're young enough to be so impressed by it. +Mhm. +Yes. +Yes. +That's wonderful! +Yes, there was a rightness about it. +Right. +Okay . +Ha. +Erm and er I've felt that same sense of rightness at many times over these years, this is now our thirty seventh year? +Thirty seven, yeah I +Nineteen +think so. +No, thirty eight. +Thirty eight. +This is nineteen ninety two. +Yeah. +This'll be our thirty eighth year in December. +So it's several. +Erm there have been times doing work which we have er, worked on together different jobs when I have thought, yes this is what I'm here for. +Yes. +Very, very strongly! +Yes. +And never, never more so than, of course, working on the sword stand. +Yes. +Never more so than that! +That was wonderful +I thought +wasn't it? +I the work I'd done in the past the training I've had the experience I've had with Hector and his work that was all leading up to that. +All coming to it. +It all came together. +Yes. +I can quite see that really. +It all came together. +Because +Yes. +that was a whole thing wasn't it? +It was the culmination. +Connection with the +Yes. +city. +It was! +It was! +Er +Mhm. +the ancientness of the +Mm. +actual +Yeah. +thing +Mhm. +you were copying. +The significance of what it was for. +For. +Absolutely! +Yes. +Everything +Absolutely! +about it. +And now, of +Yes. +course, it sits +Mm. +America with +Yeah. +Mm. +its sword in it +Yeah. +Mm. +on certain occasions. +Yeah. +Yes. +Yeah. +It's a it's a permanent tribute to your +It's +collaboration +It's an extraordinary +forever in America. +it is an extraordinary thing, an +Yes. +amazing, an amazing sensation +Yeah. +for it to be, isn't it? +Yeah. +Yes. +Yeah. +It's wonderful! +Yes. +Yes. +And erm + +Feel like I've done a shift already. +I know. +We haven't been away. +It's the time of year where you're starting to think I wonder if we'll be nearly finished. +I'm yawning already! +I know. +I dunno what I'll be like at seven o'clock tonight. +Mm. +I don't do anything in the morning you know. +Tell me when there's a at lunchtime. +Yeah. +I only did about an hour's work, that's all I did. +Some of them I did. +What shall I do now? +I know. +Should I get ready? +Should I take the, take the dog +I know. +out or +It all depends really +Am I to take the dog, the dog was left at mam's because I'm gonna be out over +Yeah. +six o'clock and that when I would normally walk in. +I could nay of told the +Yes. +Well I'm gonna have to erm phone Tony and he in, he might be going home. +And then come and pi pick me up. +Yes. +Probably better if I just stay at work and come and pick me up. +Tt! +Oh ! +It's stupid! +Come and have a cup of coffee and Tony can pick you up and all. +Geoff dropped the radio in the bath and put a hole in it? +Who? +Put a bath, a hole in the radiator? +No. +In the bathroom? +In the bath. +In that bath? +We need a new bathroom suite. +So now you can't have a bath? +I've a gotta bung stuff . +Come across my number? +Well I can have one every sort of, but I just get into the bath just after the water is slipping out. +And he's pulling the sink +Oh no! +off the wall to do summat and just re-cement or something so I've gotta wash my toothbrush, and tooth and wash my face in the kitchen sink. +How are you getting home?in there alright? +I'm gonna have to get Tony to come and pick us up. +Like th are you gonna stay on another day or what are you doing? +Are you coming in with me and in the library or whatever? +Oh no! +Being dropped at half past eight in the morning +Yeah. +till two o'clock? +Well I've got the flat there +Oh yeah. +and that wait. +Mm. +Oh I can't, I can't work in the morning though. +I worked in my room. +I wanted to go, go to the library but I thought I'd start in my room so +You know if I came in to see Kim, your room, we'd never get anything done. +Yeah that's it. +And then once Helen and that had woken up that was about half eleven she woke up and then it like, oh,our provisions and then we started talking and everything else together like +Do you work from half eight till half eleven? +Well, she . +I didn't, I work, I started at half nine and I finished at half ten and I went to you know. +I started about five to eleven, and I finished at twelve. +Then I had to get ready to go to the bank. +To get the +So is Tony gonna be staying awake until the time that you finish there? +Well I was saying to Alison, the only thing I can do is when I phone him +he's gonna come. +Go this morning and then come straight here. +Oh! +More than likely. +I know. +I know. +Maybe she'll stay at work and come and pick me up. +So either way one of you's gonna be hanging around. +I mean, either you've gotta hang around in the morning, or he's gotta hang around at night. +Don't know. +Is, is he leaving before then or what? +Or you gonna take the car or get the bus? +No I'll take the car. +I could never get the bus here. +Your telling me! +Well I know, I mean you +This is typical! +I know. +I know, isn't it? +Such a waste of time isn't it? +I mean what have we done, we ended up coming all this way . +I've got a headache already! +Mm. +Oh yes! +It was brilliant! +It was buzzing! +Yes, but it was the day +Oh yeah. +that I had my perm, and you know how it's dead +It was sticking up here . +and I thought it was just tickling tickly you know and erm it wasn't until I,su I went and sat back in my seat I was watching +And been +him doing it. +You know, I was watching them do other people's and my Aunty Gwendoline was with me and she said it's said that it's . +Oh! +Erm +So what did they +if those +heal you ? +Well they just said that all your stresses would go away which was +Did they? +the, no. +Oh!. +I mean, I was like, you know, I was still worried. +I was still worried. +Still stressed. +But erm I felt as though, I felt exactly the same, I felt I'd just been asleep I just had my eyes shut and I felt opening one eye to have a look out and see what people were doing. +That's like that is it? +So then +People were looking at you. +and then I was away and he wasn't there any more and I thought, what do I do now? +So +I opened my eyes and he come rushing over and he said, are you alright? +Would you like a glass of water? +And I said, no I'm fi you sure? +I'll you get you no. +Fine. +Fine. +And then he said well take a seat when you're ready. +Started giving me a . +So I thought, right you are . +I thought, oops! +Erm +Really? +Yeah. +Were you +Well +immobilized? +well I won't get it now . +Erm, not really. +Doesn't she? +Come on then. +Crikey! +And then +Oh that's good that like. +and whe when I went to get up I was fine. +I thought I would, I thought I would fall but I I just walked back to my chair and I was fine. +And my aunty Gwendoline said is were you asleep? +I said, no! +I mean I really just sitting +Oh. +like this I wasn't the least bit even not tired or anything. +She says she says it looked like you were out of it! +She said, he looked dead worried when he walked away from you, he kept looking at you. +Yeah. +You know. +Yeah, you were +Looked like you were gonna fall off your chair. +Yeah.. +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +He's +Er +behind you! +So I said, you know I didn't want to know. +But I wanted to know, people dead weird and anyway it turned out, do you believe in ? +I think so, yeah. +Cos I'm sick of telling people that don't believe in it and I feel a complete +Right. +turd! +So +Okay. +So what happened? +But erm it turns out that's what they were. +I really a word, and they had a little chat to us. +Mm. +Well +About what? +People +About the people who are dead? +Oh! +Oh! +About +They weren't trying to get you to +and, about the you know,th yeah +Yeah. +Well I +because I'm the one who was da doing that because tha I mean I was . +But, he was horri the guy that was doing me didn't know he had a pair of a like off er yeah. +He was built a bit like Jack. +And he had a white T-shirt, pair of jeans, a beer belly and tattoos up his arms. +And he was the one +Who's the kind of person with ! +Exactly! +We went into this room and there was this music playing like on the erm like John +Indian music. +would play on the +Oh no. +on erm +Like in fantasy +Yeah. +John's sort of thing. +You know water a blue light bulb in the middle of the room +and I'm thinking, Oh! +Come on! +What are letting yourself in for? +You know. +But it was just I mean, the things that they said honestly weird. +They're good aren't they? +Did I tell you once that a nurse on erm radiotherapy did my psychometry? +Yeah. +Did I tell you? +Yeah. +I remember you said. +Well this, did I, didn't I tell you? +Yeah. +Oh sh I've definitely heard this one. +What was that? +She was holding my fob watch and she said a few things about this, and about us and about dead people and +She was closer to you and things like +Yeah. +that. +Yeah. +Well this guy, he went +Yeah. +Oh! +the same person was there with exactly the same message. +Cos she said what happened was he said +Was she fed up? +Dunno. +He'd already got the message +and met someone +else ! +It's a him. +It's a him. +They'll not let, let somebody else have a turn ? +Well it was, what happened right, I'll tell you the whole story from the very beginning. +But basically, the man that, you know, my father said to me well he said to where's the horses? +He says I'm getting horses all the time. +And of course my Aunty Annie, Gwenny went +and he says is it you? +I said, well +could be. +Well, you know +He said just everything that was happening, I kept getting horses. +And anyway, he said to me he says is there a man in the spirit world close to you? +No! +So I just thought of my granddad. +And I said, yeah, but I was very sort of non-committal +Non-committal. +Yeah. +and very, well I suppose +Yeah. +kind of +Could be. +attitude. +Could be. +Erm, cos I just thought he was guessing, you know, and he said he says, I didn't see him, he said I only saw him and pointed to this girl over the other side of the room he was standing beside you when you were in the chair. +Oh no! +He says I'll get her to come over and have a chat with you. +And she came over after +Did she describe him? +Aha. +So who was it? +My dad's granddad. +His name +Oh no! +and everything. +His physique, his erm his physical appearance, his character and why he was there and it's exactly what that Merv said off radiotherapy. +Mm mm. +Why was he there? +There's something I've got to do. +I need a bit of a push to do it. +But there's something that you want to achieve, there's something you've got to do +Got to make a jumper. +get on and do it. +Qualify this. +That is exactly what it's not. +Yeah. +It's your riding. +Well that's what everybody says. +Yeah. +Or it's having a baby. +Well I don't think it is. +It's probably getting married. +It's getting married, yes . +I don't think it is. +Well what's your main +I thi +main ambition in life? +I think it's to do my riding exams but, I ca as I said, cos Brenda whose horse I ride up at Bridley I was telling her and I said, why would the spirit world get in such a state +About riding exam. +about me doing riding exams? +He said he said which wo what would happen if you got your riding exam +when you qualify nursing? +I said well I'll probably choose +Yeah. +riding. +I wouldn't know. +He said well really for some reason you ought not to be a nurse. +I mean, you know how th if you believe in fate and is, is there any control over it or +Yeah. +is it all planned out for you and +Mm. +and this kind of thing, is, is someone trying to steer your care or your, the rest +Away from +of your life? +away from something. +Which it would be. +Away from something. +So I don't know, I mean, I'm very open-minded, I mean +Oh yeah. +but erm he described a, my mum told her everything about a fall the bump on her head, he knew +Oh. +just loads of things. +Very strange. +I found that research book. +Doesn't Jane look yellow? +What? +D'ya think Jane looks a bit yellow? +I've probably got reflection off her . +I know. +See if any of us look,ta talking about yellow. +Mm. +Mm. +So? +So it was very good. +I dunno if I would go to one now. +Well I, I want to go now, to er, erm and just try one of the other ones. +Tonight I'm gonna go the open circle. +I wish I could go. +I, I would go, but I'd be frightened +to stay there. +Well I am whe +So am I. +see what happened is, I came over and he says, you know I've told this lady that you saw the man standing beside her and she went she sort of, she described him, apparently he was very tall which +Yeah. +we knew wasn't my granddad cos my granddad was knee high to a grasshopper, erm straight as a dye in character and physical appearance, er like he had a rod up his back which was one of these expressions, +Oh! +I see. +which apparently he was. +Obviously I've never met him. +I don't think my dad even met him. +Yeah. +And then she said erm she said, and I suppose she turned to the other guy, she said, we're not supposed to do clairvoyants, like, laughing, you know. +And he says, ah, go on it's the end. +Cos the all the was over. +And then he actually went into a +A trance? +well not a trance, it was just so normal. +She tho she was doing this right as she spoke +Like Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost? +No! +Oh. +Dead normal! +She, she was going like, you're me and I'm her +Ha. +and she was standing, I was sitting like, she was standing, she sort of went can you take a Lesley? +I went yeah. +She says, not in the spirit world. +Can you take a what? +Lesley. +And I said well, yeah and I've got a cousin Lesley . +And then nothing more was said about that. +And then she was going there's something you need to do. +She was literally having a two-way conversation, although, not in an odd way, not going ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +You know? +She was just like talking to herself, she's going +Yeah. +and then she would turn her attention back to me. +Mm. +Oh! +How strange! +And described him and +She thinks she +his name. +might be going on Wednesday. +And Lyndsey might be able to tell you something. +Well +I know. +Well that's what I'm thinking. +I'll go, my sister's going with us and I'll, the following Wednesday I'll tell you what it's like. +Right. +Right. +Okay. +Come with us. +Then we'll go and see the district nurse on Wednesday, is there anything you want me to say? +But it's not real +But I don't, what if I don't know things? +Then I might spend the rest +I know. +of my thinking +I know. +It's just that you won't +that hasn't happened yet. +Well, if you're that sort of person, I would worry about them you see. +Now +Yeah. +someone said to me, I know not, not like an accident or death or anything, but someone said erm you don't have any sisters or something? +I would imagine, in my mind, that something's gonna happen to my sisters for her not to be able to see it. +I was just thi I remember when I was young +I thought +my mum went to a fortune teller and, and I had there like tears running Oh! +Oh . +And she told us we were gonna move to a house with a green door . +And did you? +My mum bottled out when we got there. +Well +Bet your there must be a . +the thing, the thing that erm worries me is in case I go over is, that you say +You're not gonna have any children. +you're gonna have two marriages. +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +That's right, you know. +Because someone told Tony's mum that Tony would be married twice and the second marriage would be very happy. +But then you'd taken that to be that first woman, that Gill person, Gill +Yeah +Yeah. +somebody. +Yeah. +But that's it. +You will really +But if they say to me, I'll be marri I'm just gonna be thinking oh my God! +But you will relate it, cos no matter what they say you will relate it. +Yeah. +will be along after this. +Keep the noise down thank you. +not here. +Right. +Moving swiftly along er, the little thing on the timetable you know for the the last session where it says quiz it's not really a quiz. +It was at the end of the the module. +But what we are gonna do is, is give out your study guides and the areas that we'll be revising. +We'll do it now. +While you're +I don't think I'm even gonna bother revising for this. +I'm not. +Will it be a multiple choice or a written or a +Oh yeah. +And do I have to ? +I think, I think so. +A mixture I suppose. +Well I can't be +A mixture. +bothered. +Is it serious? +Is it like a +Serious ? +Well it's for yo for your benefit. +It's no one 's but . +must have all this studying won't they? +Don't worry about it. +What do you use to chew in +Ooh! +This looks a little bit less +? +doesn't it? +What colour is an orange ? +What do what is this last thing you have er according to you? +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +Oh! +What? +Not like who was that man's enemies and things like that. +Like the last one. +Name the se dwarfs or what they're called? +Yeah. +Name the seven dwarfs. +And certain parts are +The false formastation and things. +No! +That was stupid that! +And I got it wrong. +You got it wrong? +What was that? +Blooming stupid question! +It was the way it was phrased. +Oh, so expulsion of +of sperm. +And it was, it was something. +And it was ejaculation +But I thought it was masturbation. +Well I thought it was the forced +Yeah. +Well, it's funny, I was telling Stephen, my boyfriend, about that, and I was telling him the question and he said +Yeah. +that. +Oh. +Well Geoff laughed at me when I told him. +He said, er bloody typical! +Yeah but don't he said . +We want a break now. +The stupid old bag hasn't looked at it! +I've got a headache. +That's June . +Determined to sort +but she's gone now. +No, it's not. +That's June . +She is, cos I lent her th you know. +I know. +That's what I was thinking. +Well they're not the same are they? +No. +I had to take Tony to the casualty on Saturday? +Why? +Got a crack on the side of his head at rugby. +And he, he, er and his hearing went. +Ah! +Ah! +And he was feeling a bit back taken. +Mm. +Is he alright? +He's got i he's got a card with I have had a recent head injury. +Signs to look for. +Ah! +Oh! +Please report immediately. +Who? +Tony. +Tony. +Has he? +What happened to him? +He got a knock on +on Saturday. +But I think it was when he was tackling and erm +? +got a cra no he didn't black out. +And he says, but he got like a crack on the side of his head and his hear +Oh! +On his head? +and his hearing went +Any questions about that guide? +so I had to take him +Was it bad that ? +Was it the R V I or the General? +No. +Was it bad? +I'll sho oh I'll show +? +Yes. +well he's er, he says he's done a big X-ray. +Mm. +This is your study guide. +Work your way through the guide and you're going to answer all the questions on the quiz. +As usual, the papers are taken and they're kept in the file for yo reference by your personal tutors. +The reason that we're gonna produce biological science quizzes is they're, it's from your feedback evaluations that you don't get enough biological science. +Soon put right. +Not a lot more I can say to you is there? +Oh I know. +Yeah. +I never said that. +believe it or not. +There's about sixty percent +I might have said that. +of the people who are at the end of a said they didn't get enough. +We haven't had enough biological science. +So that'll teach us to . +didn't want the sixty percent. +the little areas as well though. +You do need to have a basic knowledge of +Yeah. +biological science to understand +Unfortunately you didn't have to do the . +Providing you have . +Would you agree? +Yeah. +Anybody dares +Yeah. +to disagree? +No. +Right. +Very sensible. +Cos Jane doesn't wanna be on the . +Now the nasty erm half past seven session sorted out. +What can, what can we do for another three hours ? +I re I think we'll go and I'll think you just go for tea and come back in +Yeah ! +Four and a half +an hour. +we've got. +Good God! +You can have ti be back at half past three. +Okay? +Is this like coffee time? +Or is this like +This is a coffee break. +You know,. +So I need to know what time we'll be finished. +We would've been revising had we not been here. +Exactly! +Oh! +I'm going to watch the end of Neighbours anyway. +Yeah. +I would have seen erm I'm not gonna see it. +What am I gonna do! +It's very important you know! +For my wellbeing isn't it? +Set the video. +For my wellbeing . +Anyway, she's lost the battle +Wouldn't that do it? +Watch what episode you put on. +I know. +Do we have any idea what time we'll be finished? +Cos I've gotta phone my ? +When Carole finishes when Carole finishes in this session I'm gonna go and have a chat with her. +Because what we'll have to do is negotiate at the end of the next session, whenever we've finished, cos that's entirely dependent on when we get fed up varies on what +When we run out +say, I mean, you know, what your response to the session is. +But usually it finishes within an hour and a half the next session. +Which might +Right. +well finish at five o'clock. +Right. +Five o'clock. +Right. +And then i then it's time for a break again. +Now +I think we've gotta be careful, if we cut out the breaks, you see +Aha. +an awful lot of people saying let's work right through you're not affective, you're not learning +No. +if you +No. +haven't gone away +No. +and had +No. +a break. +And I mean, there's, you know, the people who smoke need a boost of nicotine they'll go and get +Yeah. +one. +Like if you wanna get a Coke +People who drink Coke need a +Yeah . +Well we, we'll be off as much as anyone else, but you've gotta +Aha. +you se +Yeah. +well I'm gonna be off more than anybody else. +when I spoke to Carole and she wasn't happy about it. +Caro well Carole is problem, I don't think I've personally +Should be bothered with it, yeah. +but she's got the biggest problem of all because she's gotta pick us +Yeah. +the girls up, get them back home and come back. +No, she's bringing them +in here though isn't +So +she? +if, today she can come in early +Right. +Okay. +if she's sorted that out +Cos she's got the last session hasn't she? +That's right. +Yeah. +Ori originally she didn't. +Aha. +Cos originally I had the last session but we cancelled . +Well,, I'm sure you can read that first, I've got my own to talk about. +I'm getting . +Like everybody else . +Ooh sorry! +Did I just you? +it's alright, I've got another one! +I'm gonna have to pop out. +Aha. +Okay. +How's he getting on then? +Fine thanks, yeah. +Doo doo doo doo, doo doo doo doo . +I haven't got mine. +Oh I've got mine. +Crikey! +I've been to see my mentor four times! +She did a +the one. +Yeah? +She said I've forgotten it. +She's hardly seen it! +She hasn't written it! +I haven't done my +She putting mine through. +intermediate on my erm community. +Ooh I have. +I know. +I've got so much to do, other than do that. +Ah. +I mean I've got a curfew, I've got a curfew at home. +And I've got +Well I,the exam, then we've got study on Tuesday +Yeah. +and we're off on Friday, I'm on a half day on Thursday, so I think I should have my day off on Wednesday. +On Wednesday. +Definitely! +And I should be doing half day on Thursday. +I mean we should do alright after the exams. +Yeah. +Oh no! +Ah well, that's . +Make sure you get something to eat. +That's alright then. +Get the priorities in order. +Are you having something to eat now? +I'll have my tea when I get in. +Have some fish. +I think I'll have +Fish. +Fish, come on yeah! +Fish take it easy ! +Easy ! +Lemon sole. +When are you having fish? +Me. +For my tea. +Why, are you having it when you get in? +I'll have to have it when I get in. +Ooh! +Tony snores all the time. +Richard ever snore though? +No. +Never snores. +All the time! +Constantly. +The only time Richard snores, snores is if he's got a cold and he can't breathe through his nose. +Tony snores any time. +I do. +Whether he's on his back, on his side, on his stomach. +How do you know like . +Richard doesn't even move +Wanna bet? +in bed. +Oh bliss! +Never moves. +That must be bliss. +You don't even know he's there. +Never moves. +Whereas I wriggle around and I'm kicking people, and I'm elbowing people! +I don't remember staying with you like. +No. +No. +When you sleep with me you don't. +I thought you were due back soon. +Yes. +It's five past. +Alright then. +We wi +Alright? +we will come sir. +You don't have to. +I mean +But he's telling you just in case. +That's because we didn't want half an hour and he wanted half an a hour. +Aye. +Oh I see. +Right. +Shovel them in there! +Come on then. +I will +See you later. +See you later. +Bye! +Bye. +Bye. +Enjoy your research. +Who's she? +Pauline . +Why did I think her name was Susie? +I think that's really odd that someone won't live at someone's after they've lived with them. +D'ya know what I mean? +What she hasn't live with him? +Well, she's stayed with him for like weekends, or weeks. +Mm mm. +She's doing everything that she's going to. +I know, but it's a I think it's the family. +Mm. +I didn't realize her family didn't know mind. +You'd think the brother and sister would. +Well, I think they do, but they just pretend. +Mm mm. +The family likes to pretend that they do. +Because it's, it's easier, they don't like to to realize these things. +I think it's very romantic. +The whole thing . +Oh I don't think she's saying that. +Yeah I know. +But you know about, typical woman. +families have sex before marriage. +Well a how many people though Alison? +Not very many. +Someone in my hairdressers were talking about it. +Sam's cousin, Debbie went out with him for over six years. +Well what if you don't like it when you get married? +Exactly! +. +Yeah. +That's right. +Your wedding night must be such a let down. +And that's on your first night! +Would be awful! +Woo! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Painful. +Ooh! +Hoo! +Hoo! +Ooh hoo! +It's sore! +I know. +Real,Real sound effects ! +Is that on? +It's not the same kind of thing though. +Well +Be like, ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Mm. +Anyway. +But imagine that on your wedding night? +Mm. +At least your honeymoon can +This makes me feel all dead romantic and sexy ! +I know. +It'll be like +It'll be like, don't come near me again! +Yeah. +Twin beds please. +Oh God! +So is she quite brainy then? +She is isn't she? +Yes. +She gets really high scores in her exams doesn't she? +The kind of thing Denise likes to know about people. +I dunno. +Well I have to know these things. +I know you do dear. +I say I'm sure, did she not get the eighty percent in the open book exam? +She's got lovely hair! +Mm! +Got something about her personal appearance as well! +She's got nice hair Jan. +I think she's got nice hair. +Yeah but she does well in her exams so +Don't you think these things are important? +What that you've got lovely hair? +No, that you do well in your exams. +No, that you do well in your exams . +Denise isn't interested in her hair really. +No. +She was only saying it as a balance. +No. +I was gonna ask her where she gets her hair done actually. +Well that's right. +She's got a bit of money there. +She lives down there. +By herself? +Those with the bay windows? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Tt. +Along that row, she's, her dad +They're very nice. +her mum died of cancer. +She lives with +Ah! +Ah! +her dad. +Mm. +How old is she? +And she got a younger sister. +Twenty. +Oh! +Oh!there. +I says to her, you bloody well do that then! +Can you take the ? +Four hour . +Beg your pardon? +Er, shut up! +Don't forget you said this is still . +I didn't say that. +Yes you are. +They will tell you. +What? +And then we won't know when we go. +I'm getting a bit spooked about this exam now. +I am. +I keep suddenly thinking of the enormity of it. +And th the fact that I haven't really revised. +At least you, you are in the same place. +I keep thi I keep sitting down to it and thinking God! +There's so much I haven't done for this exam. +As usual, I should have started ages ago. +But I found when I looked at my books a week ago, or a fortnight ago, I thought, oh I know this, I know this, but it's not until you get into it that you think shit! +I don't know this and I could be learning. +A week ago I didn't know what to learn and now there's so many things that I know I want to learn. +Mm mm. +Well every time, every time we come in and she mentions, have you done this, that +Yeah. +and I think +Can I have one of them things? +I know. +You. +You. +What? +Fizzy gum balls. +Oh. +She always does. +Get one of them +I'll get one +It's only funny when +Pardon you! +Thi a I have to say that she does it all the time and she goes, looks around. +Does it . +A girl I used to work with at the Beechams did like really big burps. +I'd say she ate about anything and like pardon me. +She would . +My grandma's like that. +Horrible! +I mean she wo she says pardon me or excuse me, but it's so matter of fact that I'd be I could never burp like that if I tried, you know. +She did a big, I went in the kitchen at at work on Friday and Saturday +What time, what time have we gotta, do we have to be back? +Twenty past. +And the, the chef's were squeezing the custard carton and it was going cos it was the last and the +Custard? +You mean they don't make their own custard? +Nah! +They don't make anything man. +Tt! +And they were squeezing it out of the carton and it was making this right farty noise. +I'm not kidding, the three of them,thir thirty odd year old one of them is, they were on the +Well I've been +floor laughing! +One was going, the other ha ha ha! +The custard's going +My dad's forty +And I'm thinking +three and he still +How old? +does things +Do you not +like that though. +do you not laugh when a squeezy bottle does it? +No. +Oh! +I think it's so funny ! +I mean, it's funny like when you burp because you get, embarrass you like. +Oh no, it makes me laugh. +And there's loads of people round about me and I just went wurgh! +And I'd like to be fined . +I hate people that erm when my dad burps, if, if it was a cup he'd go excuse me, but but it's when they go I hate that! +I do. +Cos I don't. +I'll conceal a burp, no matter where I am. +Well you don't obviously ! +Well that er popping out. +someone really. +You could tell +I didn't know it was coming. +You can tell it was +but make Geoff makes him burp. +Oh no! +I don't. +Cos he feels he's got a wind so he +Oh I can't force myself. +Nor can I. +Aargh. +What was that? +Oh. +When's Tony coming for you tonight? +I said half past seven. +If we finish before then I shall be very annoyed! +They said eight o'clock, quarter to. +Quarter to eight cos they started at quarter to six. +I could just sleep. +Just feel like I'm not learning anything . +I know. +But then the thing is, +Exactly. +so I'm not learning anything and then we're to . +What have I done all day? +I know what . +in the past two days. +It's like what I said to Tony last night when I got in I said, I feel I could have achieved more if I'd stayed at home and revised. +Yeah! +I could of. +He said but,yo you wouldn't of. +I said well I would of that's the whole point. +I would have revised all afternoon. +I know. +Anne was saying when +Anne +she was revising +I've never seen +No that was right. +The whole . +. +Sorry I didn't offer anybody cos +No that's alright. +Oh. +And I, when she's revising she says oh I've just done about change and theories of change. +Who? +Theories of change. +But we started with Fred and only got +Have you remembered that? +a third of a ye way through it. +Change in the N H S. +Change, do you know what change she's talking about? +Freezing, something when er a liquid is freezing and it changes when it is you know changes in the physical sense of the +Yeah. +word. +That's what they learn about. +I said oh that's what I've got then. +Cos I'm talking about change in the N H S is all we can put down. +Here's Anne. +But then it's just how bad it. +Oh! +I wish we'd just done that . +It's so, simplified. +So basic, so logic. +I mean, what do we need about planning something? +We don't need it. +I mean, I didn't understand much to be honest anyway. +I wasn't listening cos I was writing them down. +The thing is, with this I don't think half the people listen to you're meant to know you're meant to, in these exams you're meant to have everything you should know and everything else +That's it. +I'm sitting writing notes and I'm thinking am I ever gonna look at these again? +Cos every time I have an exam it's a exactly the same things. +I have got revision cards coming out of my ears! +And erm which I'll never look at again at all. +We're all looking very sorry for ourselves. +Well what relevance is it to me? +Is not +I know. +I'm not gonna be a nurse anyway. +And I'm gonna go away next, next weekend aren't I? +Tony said I need to do some exercise late at night. +Cos I annoy him. +Because as soon as I go upstairs I'm wide awake. +Mm mm. +He says you should go, go jogging or something late at night. +I said well if you got us a dog I'd have to take it for a late night walk wouldn't I? +Come jogging with me. +Do you fancy coming jogging? +What? +Last thing at night? +Yeah. +You go first thing in the morning. +I know but I can go at night as well. +No, what, do you play squash? +What like eleven o'clock? +I don't, I've never played it but I'd certainly like to but +I wanna play again. +I play +Mm. +He says it's very unusual, you never see me like this . +Ooh! +I quite fancy doing that. +We should have done. +You know I was thinking today +I was thinking today erm there's a horse +Sorry. +Say that again. +there's a horse erm in some of the fields just coming out of Morpeth towards Newcastle and I saw, pardon me as I was on the bus like yesterday coming into Morpeth and this horse just shot out of nowhere and it was really enjoying itself! +It was like galloping along ! +as if it was racing. +Yeah. +Yeah! +It was just like this ! +And then it thing and it came, it was really galloping towards the fence and then, cor! +Right up +Yeah. +to the fence. +It stuck a +All of a sudden. +And I was looking, I was thinking, oh! +To be free like that. +Mm. +And then today when I was passing it was just munching away in the corner, you know. +And I was thinking, tt, it must nice, Alison's got a hobby she can just go out and you know, do it to get away +Shall I tell you what it is, sometimes +from everything. +I go back from , I'm driving over to Brenda's and I'm thinking,, and I really am, I'm driving along, you know like wha when you're in the car by yourself and everything's turning over in your head +Mm. +and go and I tack up the horse and I get on the horse and everything and I don't mean to say +Falls away. +I'm drifting through the countryside cos +No. +it might be and I'll go over the level crossing I'll think, ooh that was a bit +you know, things like that and then we'll see another horse in the field and Canter goes, ooh ooh +it's all so everything +Mm. +it's, it's, it's on a different level, it really is. +And because you could, you could just like ride away and not come back ever. +Even when you come back +you feel much better. +You feel, oh I really enjoyed that. +And it's a different kind of enjoyment, but, I mean I've never played squash +Do you feel like that when you run? +Well, well it must be the same. +Or like when I, if I we say maybe, now I can't imagine feeling like that except with horse riding, but I suppose you do, whatever your thing is. +That's it. +It is. +Er I wish I had a hobby or a outside interest. +It has to be outside I think. +Definitely. +Yeah. +Outside outside. +That's it. +I suppose +Suppose like the riding. +everyone feels like that. +I think I would, I think I feel like that everything will still be there while I was riding along. +Oh! +I have to stop and think about it, but I +You know what your natural endorphin would come to the surface and you just start getting the feeling of well-being. +Well that's the thing like, it's +You come to solutions and conclusions and everything's right with the world. +And we'd better go back now. +If you twitched a horses lip or ear that happens, I would really like to see if I twitched your ear. +And can we get a +Well +Yeah. +Mm. +It brings their endorphin to the . +Did you see The World According to Garth? +No. +On Sunday. +Well I saw a little bit of it, if I wo I keep wanting to see this film +Mm. +and I've never actually seen it. +If you know what I mean? +And erm oh just put them on that table over there. +No I don't wanna get back there, I don't wanna go back up to the wards so I'll go that way or that way? +That way. +That way? +Thanks. +Yeah. +I've forgotten which way I come in. +It's easily done. +Bye. +And erm he's, he's got these papers like with short stories +Mm. +and the wind blows them away out of his hand, so erm +Shit! +Oh shit! +you're meant to get them in the bin not out of the bin. +And th he's picking them all up and this one there's a like a rockwe erm, doberman pinscher standing and these papers between his legs . +urgh! +Urgh! +Like this, and he's saying, Bonkers, now give me that paper! +Give me that paper! +The dog just leaps on him right,so he's wrestling this dog, and he's screaming and the dog going, growling at him and everything +Aha. +and then suddenly you hear the dog goes running off and he's bit its ear! +So he goes to see his mother who's a nurse at the +Aha. +school where he lives, cos she's the nurse, like a matron, and er she said Garth! +What's this? +Was it its ear ? +The dog's ear . +It's a little triangle of the dog ! +Oh no! +I mean it was cruel +Oh my God! +but it was funny cos he just aargh! +Like this . +Ah ah ah! +The dog went off yelping. +Bless its little cotton socks. +Bet that didn't release its natural endorphin. +Ah +Ah. +We'll have a slow mosey. +Mhm. +I find, tell you what I find difficult is thinking and learning in that class. +Mm. +Some of the people aren't conducive to learning. +I know. +I know. +And I try not to get stroppy, I try to be you know, otherwise I'm being a complete crab and not joining in, but +Mhm. +I've found I have to have a lot of conditions. +Everything has to be just so for me to be able to learn. +It has to be right. +I mean half the time I think I don't remember anything because er er, people are so busy blooming playing around and +Mhm. +shouting and +And I'm too nosey to block things out. +and +When I was sitting in that corridor there was one of the tutors on the phone, only for a short while +and I couldn't even blot him out cos I was too nosey to listen to what he was talking about. +I don't think it's deliberate. +But I'm +No. +I'm reading +Just curious. +I'm aware of it. +Naturally curious. +I can't revise when I know that Geoff's in. +If he is, I go upstairs to be by myself. +The telly has to be off. +Well you see I have to have the telly very quiet and last night, ah! +To I'm sure he's going deaf you know. +Mm mm. +And I, I keep going down and I'll turn it down, and then I'll go out room and he turns it back up again. +It's like living with a cantankerous old man ! +It's enough to make you deaf. +What? +Well the sound quality's not very good. +I says, well I can hear it upstairs! +He says well you're +The trouble is +you're just over-sensitive! +what you can hear upstairs is going, ooh ooh, ooh ooh! +Oh! +Ooh ooh! +And the music! +Yeah. +The theme tunes that are on. +Oh ! +Dear me! +I wish it was that. +Well I'll go and get two, three. +I'll soon get Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Well that's your fault. +I was saying I thought she was lovely! +Yeah. +Exclusive to +Mm mm. +Mm mm. +Yeah. +It's nearly time for Neil. +I'm cold now. +It's cold in here. +The nights are drawing in. +Impact and intervention +A ball? +bodily functions . +The Newcastle College of Health Studies Ball . +Yeah? +Erm, yes. +Twenty pound a ticket! +That's what it was last time wasn't it? +Meal, disco and band. +Well, can I tell you the first one we went to we went to get food and there was none left! +Well that'll be on the . +And there was a lovely spread! +But by the time we got there, and there was and there was people there I've never even seen before in my life! +I suppose this one's it's cheap. +That was, it's always the one beside the Civic Centre one? +Yeah. +The one you went to when I was ill? +It's good like. +Yeah. +If you can get in. +It was me and Clare dancing on the table there. +difficult to get in. +At least it was just us and we were gonna +Well have you seen Helen's video? +No. +No. +Nobody has. +Oh! +It's brilliant. +Have you,can I ask, have you got pink in your hair? +Yeah, I've I sprayed it pink for the Rocky Horror and I can't get it out! +I was, I keep looking and I'm thinking +Is it pink? +it's the light. +It's the light. +It's still a bit pinky. +Just a little bit. +Was it good? +The Rocky Horror? +It was brilliant! +Eh! +It took four shampoos to, to get the bugger out! +I thought it was my eyesight. +No. +No. +I love the Rocky Horror Show! +Anyway, she's got the erm video right +Mm. +and there's a bit with Helen and Steve and you know what Helen was like when they was +Steve? +drunk. +Big Steve. +And sh +Oh! +Right. +they showed it to, to me. +It was +her face! +And, and Ellen was gonna bring it into college but ca er Helen said don't you dare! +So she's, she's +Yeah. +cut out that bit. +That bit. +Ellen cut it off. +Oh! +Oh! +Yeah. +Cut it? +Yeah. +So, it was ever so bad apparently ! +It was really good. +Everyone was on it. +Everyone was having a good time. +It was really good. +Well th maybe I should look at it seeing as I missed it. +I can just remember Helen's bum! +You were in hospital. +That's all I saw all night! +Denise. +What on? +That do at +Aye. +I just remember her backside wherever I saw always Helen's backside. +I think they should have another one. +Seeing as I missed it. +Yeah. +Yeah. +And come back with Mark . +I spent my whole night following him around! +Following him round. +And you, and with Steve, Ellen can pick it out. +Oh have you? +Well you shouldn't have cos we wanted to see +I've seen it and, and it was the best +the best time I had was . +It was good. +Right. +Am I telling you +about this? +Yeah. +Sorry. +Have I made much sense so far? +Yeah. +Yeah, but I the man +Can I +the patient looks outside in and carer looks inside out. +Inside out. +Right. +And here's, here's his journey right. +G P appointment, outpatient appointment, tests, admission, medical treatment, nursing care,planning and follow-up. +And that's the patient from his journey out? +That's his journey right? +Here, he's looking in how he came, where is it? +Route. +Ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba +But is it the round window, the square window, or the arched window? +There's one. +Da, da, dee dee dee. +Right, it says here,quality can only be asse assured ,pa beg your pardon,if both patient's view, he's looking +in there. +Right. +in, and the care-givers view looking out are in agreement . +Right. +What if they're not? +What +To a +is the one that we're actually doing? +Yeah. +That's right. +To achieve this quality assurance should mean, that when the patient feels his care is not good he should know how he can complain without any worry that he will be penalized, and in the certainty that action will be taken immediately . +And that's these things here. +There's patient questionnaires, complaints, da da, er ba la visitor inspections, complaints, patient questionnaire, there's a basically all the same kind of thing, or relative survey. +Patient questionnaire. +So, basically, what they're saying there's all these things that they'll provide at each stage of his journey so that if care isn't right he knows what channels to go through to complain. +My criticism of that being is +But what if it's not carried out? +it's, it's al the quality's not there to start with. +How can you +He da he won't know what, what quality of care is though. +Well er, the patient has his views about what +Yeah. +he expects, good nursing care +But his views aren't really gonna be necessarily good nursing care cos a lot of people wouldn't know +No, everybody's individual. +And to get, what it says here, to get quality assurance, the patient's views, and the care-giver's views have to be in agreement. +What, say you're the care-giver and I'm the +Yeah. +patient what I think is good nursing care might not be what you think is good nursing care. +But what you know is not gonna be the same. +It has to be the same for quality assurance. +But it's not gonna be the same. +But that will +Yeah cos you +I tell you what I think +It says on our research thing +say that, say that erm . +Say that +Er, say yes to that one. +I shan't ask anything. +But will it tell me the truth? +Well, see, for one is she's not erm as bad as that. +You know, some patients I could think of seem to have the idea that everything should be done for them in hospital +Mm. +and that to them is good care if a nurse does everything for them, but it's not. +If, you're taking all +Yeah. +Mm. +And when he goes into +Plus they also say that a nurse is always +busy and they're angels, and they're, that and the other, that they won't complain. +Well that's the only way that this can be assessed, is by, so that the patient blah blah la when a patient feels his care is not good he knows he can complain without any worry . +But complaining, I mean, if he's gotta complain it means that quality assurance isn't there. +But +This is only thing if they've got something to complain about. +if you were the patient nurse +So there's nothing to actually say +In a positive sense? +Yeah. +Yeah. +The only thing that +So if it +says +Yeah. +erm meaning ha blah blah and action taken . +It should also mean that when Mr , that's it, says the nurses were marvellous, the nurses are able to say in all evidence, and with evidence to support their opinion, yes +We were crap! +we are really doing a pretty good job. +That's all it says in a positi from a positive angle. +Yeah but +A pretty good job. +So what do you think ? +But like, if you take like +like er,le let me, if you were the patient and Lesley was the nurse like, you wouldn't have a clue whether it was er +Exactly. +good or not, because as long as it was pretty clean. +Let's have a look what examples they're using. +Well that's what I was trying to say, because all the patient doesn't know what to expect anyway. +I mean, the patient wouldn't know whether it was like clean +Well these are the criteria leaves for tests and investigations for tests and investigations, for example good facilities, up-to-date working equipment, nice staff, competent qualified staff +Well I'm not nice. +written and verbal information, appropriate tests, no complications . +But not necessarily the procedure itself. +If you, if you were the patient you might say it's wrong because erm she doesn't look like she knows what she's doing or there's a mistake or something gets missed. +Yeah. +You know. +But I mean, on that, well I think it's +Well I think the whole point of it is +erm, the patient's not gonna know that I'm, first of all, not gonna know anything about nurses, +Yeah. +Because he didn't, he stayed cos they class him as an A person. +And he might take a personal dislike to one of nurses. +Yeah. +They can only evaluate the care that they've had +can't they? +At the end of their stay. +Whether they, they feel, they feel better and whether that's because the nurses have done a good job or not. +So ideally, er +Nurses can, they can only they can only say evaluate a certain proportion of the erm +Yeah. +things in question. +Well it says for the nurses to is to be able to evaluate. +Waiting list monitoring, outpatient department review, observation, visits erm nursing audit, medical audit, care review, qualifications check . +Well you see the bit about the waiting +You know it's all very +list right? +Mm. +That's one thing here, will get them in and out, but I've spoken to patients who say they don't get the care here and, on the surface it looks a brilliant hospital, it gets them in and out, you know, it does everything, it's got all the facilities but it doesn't give them the care. +Mm. +I think the biggest +bogey is, is where +That's right. +it says,quality can only be assured if both patient's view and care-giver's view are in agreement cos that's gonna be really hard to achieve isn't it? +Yeah. +Where's it say that? +Make sure I've written it down. +Yes, but quality doesn't just co erm, take into account the care that's given, it takes into erm, what equipment you've got on, whether th er, the equipment's used properly. +I mean, but that that is what I was pointing out and we have some, say you have somebody qualified to go and visit each patient +What the hell's a ? +even just to like I feel we're doing the research do you know what I mean? +Mhm. +Mm. +Yeah. +I will say that. +What about yours Neil? +Come on Neily. +Hang on, I've lost my, my work. +back too soon. +That's wishful thinking. +Wears my out. +I've got my husband's on. +What? +Socks . +Not the same ones as yesterday? +No, I've got about five, no I've got about four pairs the same. +Two pairs of blue and two pairs of red. +You mean your husband's got four pairs? +Well Mm. +Right. +My art +Thirteen centre. +My +Sorry. +my article's about raising the standards of health care in the hospitals. +It's all the same really. +And it, it looks upon nurses feel about their own standard of care and, the article then goes on about +Standard they provide? +standard they provide for +Mm. +the patients. +And then the it goes on about setting up the single but dynamic standards a setting system it's called, divided into local level groups like a tier system, you get the Managing Director on the top and the ones at the bottom. +And they're called quality assurance, or standard setting teams made up of volunteers +from the local wards. +The main base made up of volunteers from the local wards like nurses and well I mean nurses and auxiliaries like that. +But it's bring, it says things about care and assessing that quality care's being met on their ward and the hospital itself and about once every six months to meet up with +other hos members of other hospitals in the area and discuss different aspects of raising the standards of care. +And the introduction about about care is passed up the three tiers, like a triangular system's +Mm. +passed up a three tier system. +And if the ideas are good then er incorporated into the care, they're incorporated into the hospital's manifesto if you want, if you like. +But there's one one fault really it takes approximately fifteen to eighteen months for them to pass anything like that and that could be one +Downfall. +downfall, one criticism about +Yeah, cos this one says it's immediate. +Yeah. +Well this one takes fifteen to eighteen months and that's to me that's just ridiculous really. +And then, it would take another however to implement any changes that they decided upon. +Basically they, they just provide the ideas which get passed +They provide the er +to the top of the ladder +That's it. +and then +And they're the ones in the situation so they get pa they're the ones who are actually on the ward at the bottom and then pass it up. +It's like +Yeah. +being in parliament really, you have to pass everything up. +Well the thing is though people at the top don't necessarily see the problems that you see as problems +No they don't, no. +as being problems do they? +That's probably why it takes fifteen to eighteen months to get a a result. +To get there. +It's not gonna help the patient like, at the time, like, at the time if your patient complains, something will be done. +What happens there and then? +If your patient complained, like, I dunno +Probably be dead by the time +Gone out the window! +Yeah! +What if you've got a loved one? +And, and we sort of no yours doesn't necessarily apply to some people to say, they might just think, oh it'll be +I know. +good idea to +Just what you think. +Yes, by the time it comes to getting round to your complaint you've moved on. +Mm mm. +It's unbelievable how many they . +So is that it basically? +If you want to call an issue but I was on about setting up these committees to assess the standard of care. +I've got a bit like that, and says the erm quality assurance systems will have to be different in each health district, with like being variations. +But it says, it has identified key elements, and one of those elements is a Director of Quality Assurance should +Yeah. +be appointed with responsibility for setting up the district-wide programme. +She would receive minutes of all meetings and have the right to attend these meetings to provide a quality assurance input. +So that's the same +And like I must have got the er the review board should be er six six requirements for these groups. +Mm mm. +They must voluntary to the whole . +Right. +Erm, there must be more than six people. +There must be a meeting once every three or four weeks for one and a half hours. +And the meeting should be held in a place where it is possible to work in our situation. +And a leader should be appointed. +Yeah. +Yeah, but even with all those things in their favour it still takes fifteen months? +It still takes fifteen to eighteen months to deliver to pass +But the leaders are nearly always someone like a Director of Nursing or somebody like that, who has no ward experience +But you need somebody higher up +on a day to day +to be able to pass these bills doesn't it? +To be able to pass the +, yeah, try to get them to pass it. +Right. +It cannot be get background. +Mhm. +Mm. +So, the major criticism for that is higher +Is up +Fifteen +up. +high. +to eighteen months. +Lyndsey. +Fifteen months minimum. +I think I had it once before. +What? +I just you know, I'm not sure. +I know. +I think so. +Well, when you've got five minutes come and knock 's door . +Well as long as you know about yours and then when she does direct the question at you about that particular +Shall I tell you what mine's about? +Well I've told you what mine's about. +Shut up! +You're gonna get this too. +Mm mm. +It's about a two different tools. +A tool being? +My body is my tool! +Whatever you like. +One's called the monitor and one's called called the system . +There you are. +That's all we need to know is it? +Right. +Well you could even call it a system. +Somewhere. +Can we go home now? +We may as well get cracking with research mightn't we? +Well, we're waiting for these lot. +Ah! +Can we start when the others come back? +Sure can. +Can we start now? +Why have we covered before the others come back ? +Then we'll get out five minutes early and we'll see a bit more of Eastenders. +I can't afford to wait. +I'm gonna have to vote at seven o'clock on Thursday morning. +I'm gonna have to vote as well, I dunno who the hell I'm voting for. +Me too. +I don't. +You're gonna contact everyone +Why? +else. +Because +Ah! +In the erm +I haven't, I haven't gotta vote any more +In the Nursing Times it tells you the +N H S manifestos for each party. +Does it? +Mhm. +Where? +Last week. +Oh! +Mhm. +The thing is, I mean we're hardly to getting to grips with other people . +But the thing is, there's been that many changes now, so having a bloody Labour government is just gonna be back to square one and into reverse you know, and go back. +Oh God! +I wan I don't want him as Prime Minister. +Oh! +Not . +You know, I am fed up! +Last night Channel one +Yeah. +election channel two some bloody crap! +Channel three, election channel four, election. +And that's just on telly. +I said turn that +Yeah,. +rubbish off! +I mean you had John Major on one side, Paddy Ashdown on the other, Neil Kinnock on the other. +Paddy Ashdown's the only one worth listening to. +I mean +Neil, Neil Kinnock +for God's sake! +he's a wanker! +I know. +Let's not talk about . +It's election constantly on the telly. +Six o'clock News is extended. +Mm. +They have they have extended from six o'clock till quarter to seven and then +Have you noticed that when there's a general election +you have about five minutes of news +there's never any di +and +disasters like +thirty five minutes of bloody election +coverage! +Probably is, but it's not +Vote Bean! +Why don't they have a big old disaster and see if they feature it on the news +Well they wouldn't. +It would have two minutes at the end! +It makes you wonder what news +Well +there is to tell you! +a runaway train has run straight through +And we're gonna need your head. +Yeah. +Well last night er +And there's been an earthquake and everything +there's the +everybody's dead. +Vote Paddy Ashdown. +there's been eight miners trapped down in Yorkshire but the election +Cos you know what he does? +He always says, and we're the party that doesn't quarrel! +Bloody hell! +What hell what an excuse is that ? +And they always say the same things and you think, oh you told us that yesterday. +No I'm not voting for him, he's had an affair. +That's the only thing he's got going for him. +Who's voting for Tory here? +I might. +Me, no. +Anyone else? +I'm sorry. +I think I will. +I think I will and all. +Lesley goes by the majority. +No! +I wo no! +No! +I'm not going by +No ! +the +No! +majority. +I mean, could you live with Neil Kinnock Prime Minister? +He's a +No. +pillock! +Anyway, John Major's the +You mean you could? +only English one. +Tell you what, I prefer Maggie Thatcher back. +Where's er where's +Yeah. +Paddy Ashdown from like? +He's er +Irish. +From Galway I think he is. +He's a Paddy. +He is Irish. +Ooh! +Well I didn't ne it could be Patrick. +Well, that's Irish. +If Patrick's Irish, it's called Paddy doesn't it? +Not necessarily. +Well it doesn't! +Not much. +Tony's dad's called Patrick and he's not Irish. +I never said he was, I just said that he's called Paddy. +I don't agree. +Like a . +Called Paddy O' really. +It doesn't mean he's not Irish. +Paddy O' . +Oh! +Now +Alison +I reckon we should all vote for Mr Bean! +I would rather vote for Bruce myself. +Mr Bean! +The greedy party. +Who you voting for? +Jane, you don't have to go to Ireland to vote do you? +Oh right +Her laugh! +Ah! +Com come on there. +Everybody's that bad. +No I mean, that was so funny how he taking this . +I think he's funny, that's why +Well I don't think it's as funny really. +I mean, I think a lot of people wouldn't do that . +Yeah . +Are you gonna move back a bit missus? +Why? +Please. +I'll not be able to see the board. +I think I'd rather, rather vote for Bruce . +Who's he? +He sings, I wanna be elected. +I don't give a damn really! +Is unity possible? +Well is it? +Bloody hell! +What's that for? +Ah yes, but I did it like, like that though. +Are you revising for that? +We did that yesterday? +I can't remember writing that. +You did. +Yeah. +I remember writing that. +No. +Yeah. +That's what I said. +More pain and more +And it began with A? +Yes. +Did the research and that. +Do all +You made it up? +I think this model's er +That's amazing! +erm +I'm impressed! +I know. +I'll, I think it'll be on the +Well that's all we did. +and everything man. +See what we'll be doing. +So +Er +so was I, even though I failed them. +I have got a bit about it. +Communication is one of those things that I'm not +I'm not very confident about this one. +Oh! +I'm not. +Well I'm going to work at Guild Hall. +I was gonna +Oh! +Lucky you! +I wish I was going to work. +I'll have no excuse. +I think you worry about, like +I'll have to do some work. +and hope that they're wrong cos you can't take it all in. + +It was actually . +to my deaf mute son. +Everyone shuts up now. +Mm. +Yeah. +That'll be a good dictionary when it comes out. +Is that what they're doing it for? +Mm +Spoken English not +What bollocks and things like that. +not not like them you know in the ord in the ordinary dictionary it's all the sort of +Hairy minge +yeah you can imagine looking through the book. +Oh look, hairy minge +The er +Cuddling. +College style vocabulary +Yeah. +Mm. +Like eh oop. +You never see that in the dictionary. +Eh oop. +Eh oop lad. +You're never likely to either. +the new one. +Not you won't either. +It'll be in that one. +You'll get fucking hell . +Things like that. +The the Whitstable dictionary +Yeah. +bollocks you cunt. +That's it. +Dave Dave. +I'm gonna miss old Dave really for his words of wisdom. +I'm gonna miss him. +And Les . +He's a nice bloke. +No Les's a pain in the arse. +Dave's alright. +please. +Er? +Les's alright. +He's alright he's just a pain on and on and on and on. +When I was at Tesco's. +Oh I yeah. +Me, me and Jock used to wind him up. +I'd say shut up Jock. +He'd say why? +I'd say shut up, shush. +He said why? +I said cos Les, Les is gonna tell us a Tesco's story otherwise. +You little cunts you . +You young bastards. +You don't know what it's like to work. +When we was here, when it was . +Oh dear. +You +Yeah. +Take my, my super mini out. +With the L plates on. +Yeah . +L plates on. +They're not being used though. +Gotta learn to Gotta learn to drive first. +Here Tracy! +What? +Martin at work. +When he found out you got a mini he said where does Tracey sit? +In the back and Darren sits in the front. +That was Jim weren't it? +And Jim said it. +Tell them to shut their mouths. +I will. +Tracey in the back and Darren in the front. +Well he said you can't both, can't get in the front of that. +ooh. +Cheer up Mandy. +Mm? +Cheer up. +I'm alright. +Just thinking of the things I gotta do when I get home. +Oh. +I put an agenda in my head you know? +What I'm gotta do first and +What have you gotta do then? +I gotta clean the kitchen. +Do the rest of the washing +Oh I better start getting the dinner ready for tomorrow. +hoover through. +Do the bathroom. +Sort Hannah's clothes out in her wardrobe and get all them sorted. +See what I need to get her. +Is this today's? +I wanna see what they say about Spurs after yesterday. +Cor I bet that nearly deafens them when they listen to that tape and he's squawking on it. +Bloody thing. +Wonder if they'd accept a parrot with it. +I doubt it. +No? +Oh well. +Not even if we squashed it into the cassette case. +Wouldn't be that lucky. +Couldn't be that lucky. +You'd have to be really lucky wouldn't you? +Blimey, they said a lot about Spurs. +What? +They're only seventh off the bottom. +Who? +Spurs. +Where's Liverpool? +Halfway down. +What's Arsenal? +Fifth aren't they? +Fourth now aren't they? +Fourth. +Are they fourth. +Oh. +After winning yesterday. +Fucking ten points behind though. +Mm. +What you , what they don't realize in this paper is that Spurs have got about three games down on everyone else. +Oh well they wouldn't would they? +Well no. +If we win them three games that we got in hand then we'll be up to about sixth place. +If. +There's a big if. +They're ain't doing so well at the moment are they? +They've hit a bad patch. +Is there anything in there about Gary Lineker's baby? +I don't know. +I was just gonna have a look. +No. +Just he's er said thank you over the +Mm. +on the telly. +For all the cards and that. +I reckon that's wrong innit? +That bloke there. +That bloke, the council are paying all that on his mortgage. +He's moved into a council house now. +.perching. +Get out. +That new tyre law comes in soon dunnit? +That what? +New tyre law. +First of Feb First of erm first of November, it came in. +Oh. +Why? +Mm? +I'd better check my two back ones then. +They're alright. +Are they? +Well they were. +dad. +. +Right come on then shit box. +Does him good to stir him up now and again. +There's a difference between stirring him up and aggravating him dad. +Well that is agg , that is stirring him up innit? +He's well stirred up. +Suppose I'd better do the washing up. +Put two more tyres on Cambridge the other day. +Mm? +On the back. +I had them erm two little ones on there. +Got two proper ones on there now. +Mm. +I had them down there look, they were on. +See you later +Yeah +Go careful. +Yeah I know. +I seen them. + +Er er I was with you then selling then. +Er you also basically er the first thing you did was erm the second thing you mentioned was these two hurdles, the third thing you did was check when you was to proceed. +Er the fourth thing you did was introduction to the C C Q. +So you went four, in one to seven you went four, three, six, seven and I think you missed out and appropriate sociability . +I didn't ten minutes later. +I wasn't sure if there or well there may be so whatever reasons it just went out the window. +Erm still friendly still relaxed which is very important part er and er tried. +Once you got into the C C Q erm for me it sounded like a string of questions erm I couldn't hear any at all or any open questions into any of the answers that were given to you on question. +Erm there was, there was one module,and develop that . +How did it go? +Nothing at all erm there was something there important time of the year . +Again with the Royal Navy Reserve mentioned just, just question, you register the answer and on you went. +Er I'll just put Miss signal to probe into areas. +First one was worked abroad +expand on that. +I think the proof of the pudding was that y you know you finished up in twelve minutes and arguably you have three minutes could have been spent floating around just chatting about this, that and the other. +Er I was, I was surprised erm because it was, it wasn't as good as I started. +So there we are it's a bitter critique. +Very relaxed, good effort Pete. +I've got the feeling that I was th there to talk about it break erm, Doris all of it. +she did all those steps . +right order. +In fact erm I've ticked them all eventually erm you actually did them out of order. +There was a potential benefit and I can't remember exactly +Erm p pro probes, nearly all closed erm we were taking notes of sort to follow up things. +Yes. +You weren't asking to expand it. +Tell me about these things, so you don't smoke, you don't and there's all sorts of problems. +Erm when said, said it all and then should say that but there's nothing more I can say and so the overall thing was great. +relax, just put the guy talk themselves till the cows come home, I would have done erm this, got the structure the wrong way round +Over to you. +Right erm a lot of good things there erm empathy is I think the second thing I wrote down on, on the strength, brilliant very see that obviously open up erm there was interest in what I was doing, you, you were confident. +I thought you did ask some, there were a lot of good overall questions to start with but I think they tailed away very quickly. +Erm fact that you set up the scene for the introductions and you asked for it that you, you know, took and reduced those people to an image of which was good. +Erm you had a statement of Barbara's,if it was in there, it was planned so that you crew can work harder erm although you filled in the bonus question well,the there was a tend dangerous tendency for you be sucked in to go into the bonus and I think you did well to say yeah well we'd better walk along to that so you held out which was nice because if I had if you hadn't tackled that you might have been shown the door once you'd gone through that . +Erm yeah you will see you, you will seek an application and er you've checked on the completeness of the information. +A lot of people would have just kept it, that thirty five thousand, nothing else but you went in, you picked up the R N V R. +Erm well what's come out you see, you did finish early and there are a lot of, if you like, no, they weren't red herrings but laissez needed a bit further probing like on the income, thirty five thousand, yeah, but is there anything else, well yeah there's the car, there's the all of those are pensionable. +You could have +Yeah so, there's a bit more, more could have been written down on that. +I saw you write down crafty so you picked up his little circle, it could be used for referrals, there's the R A R obviously is another one so they're things that can be er picked up. +You didn't ask a question about my you accepted at face value the thing about health. +Is there not a question in there, unless I'm going, er does it ask you er alright you can talk fast something like that +whether you've had a serious illness or +just put there what's your present state of health, present state of health. +take any regular medication +Present state of health +That's right you did ask me that +you did erm, I think you've not been asked to do, to say anything about have you had any serious illnesses at all. +Yeah it has cropped up. +Yeah. +Something ag again you when you're doing it, in other areas of the industry if you're not taught the structure you, you are not taught properly, you get these very bad habits and essential thing which is coming out by not following the structure in order I actually wrote down er by missing the business card and the buyer's guide at the beginning, I was actually I've got to slip this in somewhere and not listening to what you were saying and some of what you said went straight over my head which is bad because you're missing things then. +Er some of the . +Yeah some, some of ours . +Get away from there. +I usually get round people like that though because if somebody said that +not at all but, you know, there are tax advantages in it sort of thing erm . +Yeah it's just a small volume, you've just got one channel for, yeah currently I'm in pretty good shape but only a year ago I had a major bypass operation. +So you've just got to watch out that you you're gonna miss those things if you're not careful. +Okay with education of children, does that not crop up on this? +Mm. +Yes . +Erm, what else was there, tennis? +Did you, did you think there was +Tennis Club yes . +Because there were, there were easily three lists of influence on referrals that you need to be attuned to, that I gave you in that one erm praise, give a bit of praise to my wife because all I'm proud of crafty , I thought, you know, why didn't you say that was a beautiful brief. +Yeah. +And when you go home +Because I would think it's that I hadn't given you the +I knew +Is that when it clicked? +Yeah,th well no just before then I kept thinking +God I haven't the buyer's guide and all that bit just went straight over my head that's . +I wasn't listening and it was important that I should have picked that up. +I mean you obviously did well because you've realized you've forgotten it and you know you've gotta, the ideal two worst steps over to, the person who's sitting here is not gonna say, hold on, where's the buyer's guide, +It's not that important sir . +unless it's the but er if you've forgot it back good reason for handing it over so yeah I mean I, I think that well I've given you the, the, the strength if you like we can see it, perhaps a little bit more open questioning wouldn't go amiss would it? +No. +did it so well the other Friday when in the +It was preparation that did it +wasn't the preparation, but yours was the best, best one of Friday +because we had to sit and prepare what we were doing. +Er I'd, I'd picked out because I knew a lot about the client whereas here I know nothing about the client. +the case in fact in real life is there +Yeah, yeah. +but if you, if you looking at some things that came up there are crafty marks +That's interesting where do they meet, walk down to the local church and that's great well what sort of time do they meet oh you know eleven till five? +Now if you can go there all you're doing is if you're showing interest and you qualify like you reckon is it going to be worth my while, what sort of people go there, you know the R N I. +How often do you meet and how many people there, you're showing interest but you're also qualifying at the same time and it's not padding, it's actually useful information because you're thinking well that's worth pursuing the R N I, yes but there's money there. +The, they really convert bibles for doing that is because I've always done that of er right that's, that's out of the way, jump the paperwork, now what about talking about your clubs and that t to sort of close down the call and relax the client for getting into referral mode and I've always done it tail end on so the introduction to the referral is at the beginning and perhaps looking for them during i is totally unfamiliar, I mean I do note the odd thing as I go through and note them down on the, the but I'd never been used to actually although we were told referrals how and why that went with it. +I think that's very valuable here because we've given all that stuff up front. +It's very easy to do it because all you do is how many people go there, you know, who runs it runs it stuff like that and you just, you're exploring and you're getting more information and it's that's great, fine. +Now if we get back to what we were talking about due to today so then you do a bit more and then it's back to the sort of really. +It's not quite the pressure, I mean I always find those two pages which is facts and that's it but that's the new dimension to it so that helps a lot. +The other thing I wondered when I was watching the video, you sat there at one stage, while I was writing and I thought, I thought, what are you thinking? +Why didn't you ask me? +Because I didn't notice it when I was actually doing it. +Oh right. +on the video because I was writing, I wasn't watching you, +Yeah. +I was writing and on the video you're sitting there going. +Well what's going through your mind she writing the answer to those questions. +And as you said, firing one question after another. +Do you think that was the reason why you missed it?write it down. +the reaction to but if you do see them you should always ask, you say you're very puzzled aren't you. +Mm. +well I'm a bit puzzled why, why you want to know all this and you think because I haven't given, given a good benefit that's why a good temporary benefit, that's why I'm puzzled, say well let me just take you back to why I'm h why I'm here,let me get out of our meeting you're gonna find this extremely valuable, perhaps for the first half we will spend time looking at your financial put you on the path to achieve financial . +Well that's what we're here today to look at. +What's a good answer to that because I found a lot of people, we had that actually on our and one of them was that she . +Now to put that into a phrase I found quite difficult to do er and but some people wouldn't question it but other people would say well what do you mean by that, what you know you plan for the future so that you can retire will be financially independent but it works and you your money work for you. +Means when it's put out to pasture +Give you an income +Right +Means you're gonna live in a field. +Means when you can choose when you retire decide you have to retire and you will enjoy proper, you can have an income erm which is going to be erm commensurate with what you are currently earning. +So that's the trouble. +Which say have er retire in dignity and comfort, that's the difference between being an old man and being a gentleman. +Is that right. +Rightio, well I hope you've rewound your tape so it's +alright don't worry about that +Anything else on that one? +Manager whatever you call it. +Do we, do we move on to +Yes, we just move on to the what we need is a five minute preparation or whatever. +Do you, do you collect these? +I'm not sure we're going to +It would be useful to have it. +route now you see. +Yes I do I'm moving on I've got to find my way to somewhere else now. +Well where did you start? +well hang on to it just in case but I'm sure you'll be getting these +Do you do you want the one I did? +Ah +Do you want that one? +Yeah I think they would be helpful +Alright. +I always lock that one. +I was surprised as much as anything Diane. +you can keep it . +If, if that's wrong then I'm sure it +Well I'm not going to lose it +Right anyone know where cl +I'm trying to think where the one +Oh that's his erm gentleman dialect I think +Dialect. +Picking up the dialect +corpus, British corpus corporation they want to get have so many millions of spoken words +so many millions of words. +Excuse me. +Yes. +it's the next one along +What did I do took my key out of here +They've gone. +This key here. +No that's not mine, mine's only got fifteen on the back one there I thought, that's strange having one +Now comes the problem. +Yeah I was aware that that +Is to know it all and can sit down and watch you two +yes that's er +It's a different world when you get out there. +Right which is your tape? +Have you just left that running? +I'm not sure where it is film, we'll have to just er last week. +Right +hear and get you to the right part. +I am not sure if we rewound it or what. +Want to keep on it +Well thanks a lot for your time +Okay. +and I'll see you goodbye. +That's something else I picked up from watching +Okay +Thank you for your help today, thank you for . +I've never been used to doing that and it makes such a lot of difference when you actually speak to the people. +Mm +It helps a lot. +I, I, what I try to do is switch off erm, and be myself. +Mm mm. +Because I find that er I can talk to people now, we chat away as I would in a pub, or in someone's house but then this is the bit that worries me. +Just try and get the structure right +I went wrong I'm just me when I go in, erm it's getting the structure in there. +I mean, as you say, I cover all the points but because you don't do them in the right order perhaps you muck them up +Oh yeah I er sat there and thought oh crikey +and I looked across at Barry and he got cross, cross, cross and +Yeah, where did mine go I did one on Barry but I don't know what I've done with it. +Yeah. +but then suddenly you you're back into it. +scripts +Show me what you can do. +It's this erm, as mentioned on the telephone the purpose of my visit is er erm the whole review should take about forty five minutes, well that's up to now are we supposed to say. +Erm, well we've got, I'll take a few notes erm during this, during the course of our conversation, I'll take them away, study them in complete confidence and come back to you next week with my recommendations. +Does this sound okay to you? +Well there, erm you, you've introduced your C C Q +And what are you going to do? +Good start and I've found by adopting this approach I've been able to erm help clients in many areas which has saved them tax or making their money work harder for them. +How does that sound? +Well I've done it but all in the wrong order. +Mm mm +Well I'd like you to try that one today but I go to pieces +Now I, they could, erm one thing that I found b b b b picked up from doing my own reading and studying was that it's always good to go through with the customer step by step which is to a certain extent what we do do +as you said the steps of it and that you will come back with your recommendations and that. +Now I missed that out totally there so I've got a lot of learning to do on the scripts +Why do you think you missed it +I find that difficult +was it, was it, was it because he just er turned up, was it, was it, did that throw you off a bit? +Yeah there was no preparation for it really and I haven't learnt the scripts properly, +Right +they're not going in. +Old habits die hard erm +Yes it's easier said than done +just going in and sort of lying by the seat of your pants. +And you can also get lost even if you do say the script because I said to Roger I, I've +Er +tried it to remember the script but then I +Hang on why +I've lost the statement of the person +What's going on here? +I'm just forwarding my tape +Oh right. +There's yours. +No I know that's there cos it's Roger +Yeah yes +I think you know I was con trying to concentrate on getting the facts over and doing it properly and not listening for the comments so much and thinking more you know what, what can I get out of this here erm +You get drawn into, you know, too much unnatural structure don't you really? +Mm. +I've lost my buyer's guide. +talk. +So I didn't do any appropriate sociability there but I think what threw me off is cos I'd already said Helen to Stephen, I know you and everything and it was as if it was part of the same thing +Yeah +and to switch off and then go into role play after very strange +I don't know +percent. +I think he's got . +Right. +I like Stephen +Yeah. +Really good company. +I'll tell you why +Yeah I, I would say, I would say that's yeah +I'm trying to find paper somewhere, oh here we are +it's much harder than erm the was. +Yeah, yeah. +I would say that. +Yeah certainly. +Yeah but that's what it's all about . +He was more erm realistic as a real situation. +Constructive as well. +Yeah he was more real I mean when you sort of just sit there she, she threw me off track a few times but er he was more realistic so therefore. +What's all this about bonuses bonus. +where's me structure gone, that's not me structure. +Yeah I think it's erm Martin aren't I and he was going to throw you . +All over the place . +Yeah. +I shouldn't worry. +Just do your best I think +Is your tape still running? +Yes it is it's still going. +It's you learn as much from your mistakes +Erm +you learn more from your mistakes than you actually learn from doing it right I think. +You do, yes +You do +Yeah. +I mean you know when it works +Is that your business card? +picked up . +This must be an ideal situation for you actually cos we're being, we're sitting here being recorded and being watched so we're used to that sort of thing but not particularly conscious of it +What tape? +I supposed you've a bit of scan +Got a second tomorrow, so that's seven the whole bit the whole week is all about that until we get to the presentation presentations, what does he mean by presentations? +I don't know. +Because two of them don't have to be done are they +That's when they've got to do their, their resits. +They had the choice of doing it erm this afternoon +Oh right. +but erm I don't think Joan, at the time,last night, Joan said that she was a bit too tired to Bob was having to just fit in with that so I don't know what they're gonna do. +last night I went half past ten cos +I was at half past, quarter past one. +I would have loved to have stayed because I really enjoy things like that, I love discos and get up and have a dance but I knew damn well that if I did I'd be absolutely shattered today and I, I just wouldn't be with it so I, I said to Matthew I'm going up . +Yeah. +So and I went down in the pool this morning +At the time you enjoy it but then the next day you pay +Feel sorry about it yeah. +Well that's why I did it because I don't often get the opportunity to go out and enjoy myself like that . +Yeah. +I was tempted now, no +Yeah basically why I didn't, I wasn't going to consume all that Guinness either . +Well I remember feeling quite niffed because Matt was really off on Friday because he'd been up so late +Yeah. +and I think that rather ruined the whole afternoon erm +role plays he was just so tired, he +He was just out of it. +He was like a zombie . +He's a stroppy little sod isn't he? +Can be. +He was trying to, he was doing a laugh laughing fit last night, he was, he, he couldn't tell me what he was trying to tell me. +Every time he told me, he started laughing. +Oh dear,we he wen got up +I still didn't know what it was he was trying to tell me +No, I was told before I came on the course, you're going on the course to learn to make maximum use out of it, you're not going on an almighty second holiday and +booze up. +We were given the, a right old drumming down before we left for here. +Mm. +You are all representing these branches +Oh no it wasn't quite that bad. +and you all . +Get up at two, I don't think got much mention to them at all from what I was +Oh no, it was just because I went to talk to my manager about it before I went and I went through my diary with him and everything. +My appointments and everything I'd got before I came along and erm he went on to tell me, if company . +Mm. +He feels I've got to take the client back +over to or something. +waiting it's just getting on your nerves now, I was quite calm and relaxed +Organize yourself a bit, what you're gonna say and how long you're gonna to the other. +Well no, I started to do that, then I, then I thought we don't play the customer . +If I get into a structure, if I, if I start trying to learn it I'm gonna do it all. +Slow it down. +Mm mm. +Turn that off for a minute +I liked that bit you said, greeting an appropriate sociability,. +yeah. +Lorraine door. +our erm assistant manager. +They're agents Matt and I are in her team. +Hard task master. +Apparently there was a woman A B M at our branch until recently and apparently she was very good too. +That's what Joan was saying the other day as a woman you have to be, otherwise you don't get there. +Yeah and she's totally focused, she's er, I think she's got two children erm her husbands works, she's got two children she's brought up and developed herself to be a branch manager or assistant branch manager er she's got a degree h now don't listen to this Lorraine, who it said mid thirties +and actually she's excellent and I like her not like working for a female boss good people er +the victim +I'm the victim. +Now you're the victim are you? +I'm the victim. +I think if you've, if you've got a woman that's then you're lucky +How you going, alright, yes +Whoosh. +Ta. +When you're ready, then. +There was a +Right so I'll be the timekeeper +Yes please +I think if it makes any difference to you we've got a thingy whirring away there. +No that's not a problem. +It's just recording +A thingy whirring away. +Yes +Yeah that's fine. +Am I +Erm you covered it slightly, you need to be sort of in, either any yeah +Do you want ask you to sit in the other chair? +Don't mind. +It's recording now anyway. +Yeah. +Come in. +Got Roger instructions. +Hello Roger. +The chef. +very much. +Okay. +garden you've got. +I couldn't help noticing as I walked up the path. +Is that you? +No no, they're the +Really. +I try not to though, I mean that's her responsibility, I buy the plants and she puts them in the garden, er in the . +What sort of hobbies do you do when ? +Oh I do D I Y around the house you know I've got these rather er sexy lamps up there different aren't they. +Where did you see those? +. +Do a job lot you know, four something, four eighty keeps the wife happy. +They need to be, yes. +Okay Martin, I know you are a busy man, may I call you Martin ? +Well I'd rather you didn't actually. +Right okay that's no problem. +Erm before we go, go into I've got to introduce myself, business card and the buyer's guide. +Buyer's guide tells you that I work for and, and that I'm authorized to discuss 's products only. +When I'm going through the recommendations with you. +Right. +Sorry, do you want to know more? +Do I need to know more? +Well, no, it's yours to keep, you can read it a at your leisure erm if you've got any problems with that you've got my card and you can ring . +Great. +Fine. +Before we er knuckle down to this list, tell me, how m +Knuckle down, what do you want to knuckle down to, business? +Before we talk about the er er getting to the purpose of our meeting, erm, how long were you, how did you come to in the first place? +I think er of time now what five or six years ago came to presentation . +I the time on the , think what they're saying was trying to act . +So you could say he recommended you to us? +Well he seemed quite keen on the company so . +We find that erm, most of our clients are recommended erm you may well have heard the expression we grow big, by being recommended. +Can't remember that. +You find that building erm er building and business buying our recommendation means we can erm, we don't need to advertise er, +rarely need to advertise and the there for the benefits of our clients. +Yeah. +Erm in areas that erm produce charges erm interest benefits whenever possible. +Sorry what do we need to ? +Increased bonuses. +Oh right, sorry. +Er so how does that sound to you, is does that way of building a business sound to you? +Erm well it makes sense but I'm, I'm glad you cos I mean my bonuses have gone down, I mean they haven't gone up then why is that? +Okay, can I come back to that erm on the bonuses a bit later on? +Alright okay yeah. +So erm going back do y felt that er mouth to mouth recommendations +case you've got that have we? +Erm, erm we've found that erm +it's helped to build our business and erm in fact we thought it was a good idea er during the course of this conversation that I'm having with you +I, I you can introduce others to me. +. Erm if and only if you find there's been some real benefits you . +Well I'll see what you can do first. +get work. +Who said I'll answer me up the end and we can see how we go. +Yeah fine. +Okay. +Right, erm the purpose of me being here, why am I here you may ask. +Why indeed? +Well it's better than telephoning and +that we've erm, firstly, I want to say hello, I'm Roger I'm with the your policies. +Erm, secondly to introduce you to our new review system whereby we do a complete item review the situation to see how your existing policies are working and how they fit into what you want out of life. +Erm during the course of the meeting I'll take a few notes, erm +book here. +Erm I will take those notes away with me in the strictest confidence, go through them erm work out some recommendations, how you could hit the goals that you will go for at the end of the day. +Mm. +Erm and come back to you, perhaps in a week's time and you talk me through those recommendations. +I found by adapting that approach erm I've been able to help clients in such areas as er tax saving or making their money work that little bit harder for them. +Well how would that in the future. +If you could make my look, my money work a bit harder it would make sense to me, after all . +So, are you happy to proceed Sir? +So can you take me thr +Oh yes sure. +Yeah. +Okay good. +Erm a few hard facts just to confirm first of all +Hard, what's a hard fact? +Your name and your address. +Oh right. +So why are they called hard facts? +As opposed to soft facts, soft facts can be something along the lines of what you want out of life er +What you're, what you're aiming for in the future? +Something could change er whereas a hard fact erm, it's very rarely you're gonna change your name. +What? +I do. +What you've obviously got to why did I mention yeah, you marry, but if something's be down, isn't gonna change. +Interest may change but . +So if the address changes, is that a soft fact or a hard fact? +A good point,I think that's a very good point . +I think that's a medium fact. +A medium fact,I 'll I'll accept that. +Alright then. +But, but you ca can see what I'm trying to get at. +The facts are gonna be something that, I have to write down here soft facts. +There gonna be something that er, as you would tell me about. +Really, oh fine, I don't drink +That'll be interesting +So it was erm Mr ? +Yeah. +And the first name's Martin. +That's right +Are you married, Martin? +Sorry. +You are married and your wife's christian name's okay. +The address is obviously . +Key to the front door. +I spoke to you on the phone at work er have you got your home number? +Yeah. +Okay erm and you're U K resident, you're +Yeah. +working here . +Your wife? +My wife what? +She's a U K resident as well. +Yes she is yeah. +Your date of birth Sir is it the twenty first of August nineteen ? +Your wife's date of birth. +Er the twenty sixth of the sixth . +Okay, now we talked about you and your wife erm you told me that you had two well you've got two kids erm +Alex is the eldest, he's nine, er Catherine she's eight +Their date of birth. +Alex is the third of the third eighty five, Catherine's the . +That's Alexander. +Yeah +Okay So they're at school? +Yes. +You've got the problems of going through their early life. +Are they at private school or public school? +It erm school . +Right, what are your thoughts on private education? +I'm quite happy, I'm quite happy with the er the . +You wouldn't be er interested if er you were able to afford perhaps?. +No no, I li I think maybe higher education, that would be the first I'm quite happy . +To tell you the truth . +I'd like to, they may, they may not want to sixteen . +Very possibly. +Yes okay. +Erm health-wise +Er have just been in hospital this last three or four years. +Three or four years. +You +Why I had too much . +Oh no, just keep calm, that's all. +Erm so your, your state of health er have to go to hospital go to the doctor? +What do you mean ? +Will it create problems? +No. +No and, and your wife? +She's fine. +no problems. +Right. +Do you smoke? +Er she does, I don't. +How many does she smoke? +About five a day . +hobbies . +Pastimes. +Well I do a little bit of yachting. +Yachting? +Yeah, there's a boating lake nearby in the big white sea as it were down there . +what you just go on your own? +Well I take my son, he comes with me, he for me. +So you're ? +Yeah . +You've got to join . +Oh yes you come in, it's, it's not a membership, you just go along and pay your fees and . +Well it on my doorstep and that makes sense to use it, so I sort of wriggle down there and have to keep me out of er Southampton er Boat Show. +Mm. +Yeah it costs you much +No I don't it's just a, a small . +erm so you got it ? +He won't? +catchment is. +Is she? +Yeah. +That's the television? +Yes. +Afraid so , +Don't we all? +Okay erm what sort of work do you do?. +Erm I'm a Technical Author. +Technical Author? +hate this . +Yeah. +diagram make sure you have part of the engine room. +Well I do at the . +I see you write it up or you draw the pictures? +I write yeah. +photographs to the drawings, then I write the technical explanation of how artwork that interrelates with each other. +Marvellous how they do that. +at school I used to trying to do something er + +project. +And they're collecting words. +Right? +Right. +And they just want to hear people talking so just carry on with your meeting, take no notice of that. +No you can use any words you like, they are unattributable +Oh right. +They're totally unattri er attributable. +Nobody'll kno nobody will know erm who it is. +Right. +Or be able to associate who said what. +Fine Tom yeah. +We'll use some big ones now. +Undubitably. +To be sure to be sure sir. +Right, where were we? +. +L H . +. +Er November automatic, should have gone up eight per cent automatic. +End date? +November. +Er so that'll be first eleven ninety four, +Yeah. +check price increase applied. +Yeah. +Increase. +All I have to do is go and see her and say I want to know see each one ticked. +Cos remember you're headers, just the headers. +Right. +Got to check the end dates, list numbers +Sure. +To make sure that you know, they've got to understand we police it from that which means that you go over to +Yeah. +I think to be honest to you, the the have been given very little guidance, she doesn't understand what's supposed to happen +Mm. +and the importance of it. +Mm. +So it's just got in a bigger mess and a bigger mess to be honest with you. +Yes and I've got the smelly straw now. +Yeah that's right that's right. +. +. +Well one of those Yeah, one of them's negotiated and the other one isn't. +Three one four three six one. +one three six one one eight. +Yeah +Is that it? +Eight eight three eight two eight four. +I've got one three nine +That's right. +That's okay then. +That's okay. +Er. +Narrow aisle. +Narrow aisle being done, I know that. +I've seen a note for that. +First of the first ninety four. +Yeah. +Would you know what they were? +Er check price increase . +Oh this is good of you . +Saves me doing this . +You see, I gave all this information on disk. +She's had all this on disk +Yeah. +Cos I was brassed off cos I said . +Erm now uplifted . +there's a letter down here. +It doesn't that price it just tells you. +Look do you want to write on there and work that out. +And then you can see what . +Nineteen fifty one for the S S F two and a half. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Eleven twenty nine for the seventeen stroke. +Eleven twenty nine. +And eleven O eight for the two stroke. +So that they're the latest prices. +Effective first of the first first of the first ninety five. +Super. +Okay. +'s Engines. +'s Engines. +Oh I'm going there next week. +That's right, just say it's the thirty one one ninety four. +check Backwards and forwards like a yo-yo. +Erm First of the second ninety four actually. +Thirty first of the first, that's right, that's where it ends . +Yes that's right. +Okay. +Yeah. +So that's okay? +Yeah. +Brilliant.. +. +No in-date. +No they were called something else actually erm . +Let's have a look at the P L A. +didn't have on this did we? +No. +I think we ought to remove that list. +Which list. +This list. +Erm, they've only got one size, and S F T thirty with protector . +That's right. +Yeah. +Nice profitable business . +Pardon. +Nice profitable business. +It is yes, and we've erm +So that should be a three O eight customer. +Yeah it should. +Outside of one size, we should only have one size on the net list. +It's impo let's have a look at the account number . +The price on the net list should be six pound eighty. +That's for the S F T thirty. +Price six pounds eighty, latest. +Check price increase done. +Change and date it to when? +Maybe er +Thirty one twelve +Thirty one twelve nine four yeah. +Right. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I didn't have that on this list did I? +No. +.. Four five six sorry four six five +four six five +six eight one hundred. +six eight one hundred. +er two two +Two two, +double one +double one +three one +three one +O one. +O one. +Okay. +Travel. +Mm. +Take forty P out of that. +Er T L A customer, well yes yeah I think we should delete all ne dene delete the net list, remove er list and end date. +Right that's okay.. +Ah right. +we've erm we've done that. +Is that all we've got on erm +Yeah we're onto the next area +Right. +Do you want me to just go through any others? +The other thing you've got is the fact that P O A customers will be on here, and therefore those P O As should be on here. +Right? +Right. +Plus these are over your horizon or the end of February. +Oh right, okay. +Yeah? +Yeah gotcha. +Erm , we've got we're in a situation with where we've just put eight per cent. +We haven't affected their order book, but all future orders we've affected by eight per cent. +So this should be by eight per cent. +It should be updated by but not applied to the order book, do you follow me. +Yeah, sure. +Check price increase of eight per cent for new business. +Not order book. +That's one one ninety four. +Er end date, should be one ninety four. +So it'll be thirty one twelve ninety four. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Well if you'd like to keep it at that, that's fine. +Yeah cos that then that then ends on that date and you negotiate for +That's right, yeah. +And that's . +. I'd say that's the same thing myself. +Yeah.. +this price. +No sorry no it isn't. +N one oh one three. +N one oh one three, N B C three. +N B,. +So four five seven six three one O one. +That's alright, that's no problem. +It's er +It's picking up onto the same list is it? +Yeah. +End date it's picking up off the same list. +End date, thirty first, of twelfth nine . +Link list,O nine O to I O eight three. +Good thinking. +. +. +Er that was automatic ninety th er November ninety three but we've had a problem with them so we're negotiating . +So that wants to be +They've actually resisted. +thirty one ten ninety three. +Er end date. +I'm just bringing you up to date really, they've actually er resisted quite violently towards the reacted quite violently towards the erm price increase and er we've erm just sent them back, Peter's just writing a letter so there'll be a letter coming in +So you see, that needs to go in there so that when it prints it out again, we come and ask you +Yeah. +what's happening. +And when you update it er which updates the whatever percentage it is, then we change the end date so that it is +Right, fine. +Otherwise I'm getting paid . +No no that's right okay. +I understand. +That's how it should that that's how it should work yeah, I agree. +. +we've got this P O A actually. +Ah remove net list, P O A customer. +I heard they were in trouble. +Have you? +I no sorry.. +Be the sa it's the all part of the same. +Well precision for a while because +Yeah. +of the redundancy situation. +Oh. +be a bit careful with that. +Engineering. +Oh that's site contractor. +So the end date? +It should follow it's list, and erm it it's one one ninety four. +That's right then. +Yeah. +So that's alright then? +I don't think you'll find it. +I don't think we'll find anything should be the same, one one ninety four . +One one ninety four. +Yes. +One one ninety four. +One one ninety four. +Yeah. +'s all the same. +Engineering. +? +Erm that's fifteenth of the second ninety four for some reason. +I don't know why. +Deferred. +But we've got we do very little business with them, it's really an account. +Well we should actually we should That wants linking to erm 's account. +Can't at the moment no. +But I mean, our business with them is two hundred and nineteen pound. +Why we're worrying about them I don't know. +They probably negotiate the list at the same time as . +No I don't think we do. +I don't think we do. +Yeah. +Okay, if we do it to the fourteenth of the second ninety four, er and then that'd come up, I can tell you what we cos Peter's just is halfway through it with Well I say halfway through it. +Hopefully he's halfway through it with erm erm so that should come up. +Okay? +Okay. +. +No end date. +it's two four O two four five O five or two seven. +remove +Yeah +oh it's quite a big value. +. +Well let's not remove it, let's go let's erm put it November ninety three +Okay. +November ninety four sorry, automate so it goes automatic. +date to November ninety four. +Yeah. +So thirty one ten ninety four. +Okay. +no end date. +P O A. +Remove from net ? +No. +Because then you get you get this which is . +Right and we'll be able to dummy this one will we? +. +Okay. +And you can clear this up? +Sure. +I know . +Carry on carry on. +Lead on Macduff. +Carry on regardless. +. +Yes,. +I've put all the together under Peter 's responsibility. +Because he deals with on the +Ah right. +and since are a big potential one one ninety four I've got down here. +Yeah, it's only one . +Yeah. +Yeah. +And er +So it's still outstanding presumably? +Er I think it is, yes. +Do you want me to ch check for you? +It's just that if there has been a price increase, then the end date wants changing as well... +There's a letter in with that one.. +Right so we haven't had a price increase? +No. +No we have we haven' we're halfway through it with working out . +. +All the same, they should all be the same. +And the end date wants to be in as? +I don't think we can treat them individually. +Right. +You know, I think we should tie em all up with the same +Thirty one well ninety th ninety it says ninety three . +Hang on, this account number. +End date thirty one twelve ninety three. +It looks like they're all linked in +Yeah. +Thirty three, thirty four +They should all be the same,let's put them together anyway, even if they're not, we should put them together because erm I mean they're all part of the same company anyway. +We can't tre we shouldn't treat them individually. +We should treat them . +Right,. +people. +One four ninety four. +End date thirty one O three ninety four. +That'll stop this one coming up . +Engineering. +yeah, 's a subcontractor. +So one +one one ninet +Thirty one twelve +Yeah. +. +That's okay. +.list price. +? +P O A I've got down here. +So +Somebody's +Remove +No no I don't think we should do that. +We could actually remove the net list right, but I think we should have a net list for . +Yeah but I don't think it's been updated for so long. +Mm. +At the moment erm Shane I've got a new enquiry in the system for a whole works, right, +Yeah. +What I'd like to do is reprice that and put that in as the net list. +Right. +Do you follow me, for the spares. +Yeah yeah. +But we need to put an end date on that. +Erm oh I see, yeah. +Otherwise it's gonna keep up. +Yeah. +Erm well we can change this end date can't we? +Yes, if we put end date in as thirty one, twelve ninety three. +Yeah. +That's right. +So that keeps popping up, and then we get it right. +When we've got it right, we can put it to . +. +one one ninety four. +end date thirty one twelve ninety three.. +, Engineering,.. +. +Er one one ninety four. +End date thirty twelve ninety three.. +One two ninety four. +end date thirty one, one ninety four. +Er Engineering. +November automatic. +November ninety three. +So check price increase done. +Enter . +Enter end date er thirty one ten ninety four. +Next one +Er automatic, November ninety three. +Check price increase done. +enter end date what date was it again? +November ninety three. +Thirty one ten ninety four. +Yeah. +Cancel. +Take it out. +Remove net list P O A customer. +Don't wan don't even want it this far. +Okay well we'll do that later. +Okay okay. + +, yeah, we're in the middle of that. +It's one one ninety four. +So that's okay. +So +do a lot of work on that. +. +Er one one ninety four negotiate. +So one one ninety four, enter annual date thirty one twelve ninety three. +Engineering. +Engineering, November automatic. +Enter end date, thirty one twelve, automatic? +So these should have had price increases. +Yeah. +Check price increase. +Thirty one twelve ninety four. +increased . +That should've been automatic,ni November ninety three. +ninety three,. +done, thirty one ten ninety four. +that's automatic. +Ninety three. +November ninety three. +.Think of the money we're giving away by missing these. +They might have been done, it's just that we don't know. +No I know. +That makes it even worse. +. +Er one one ninety four. +Really for our business, it's worth messing around now. +Erm that's business, I think if you just put er eight per cent on that, just p whatever, if we've got a net list, put it out the way. +Ninety three, check price increase eight per cent done thirty one twelve ninety four. +one six three three O three +That looks a reference. +M C three. +I think that's ceramic coated bearings isn't it? +Really. +Bit of a failure weren't they? +Well so we should certainly put them up by eight per cent. +Er . +, automatic, November ninety three. +Check price increase thirty one ten ninety four. +If not thirty one ten ninety three.. +That's automatic again. +Industries. +, yes we've I've just just done those. +We're on to the next area now aren't we? +, one one ninety four. +Erm but I've been this is I've been progressively pricing this account. +Right. +We've had erm on those two two two price increases on the O eighty eight which is the volume size, +Yes. +and we've just had another one on the B A C O ninet O nine O. +Yes that's why I've the increase of twelve and a half per cent on it. +Right. +So you can see that er that price seventy six of those, that price goes up to two hundred and something pound which is . +thirty one twelve ninety three was that? +Ninety three yeah. +Ninety three if price increase not done. +should say, C J B G . +Yes, thirty twelve ninety four. +C J B G letter. +Yeah I think you will yeah. +Don't you? +I bloody hope so. +Cos I'm not doing this every year. +No but we shouldn't need to. +No. +We shouldn't need to. +Volumes is not until er later on in the year. +Third of April. +That's it yeah, first of the fourth ninety four. +that sounds okay. +Yeah. +Whoops.. +Yeah. +thanks a lot bruv +is erm quite a circus cos they we've got two accounts, we've got and the original equipment manufacturers. +Yeah. +And er it's a real game of soldiers, last time I had them up here and er oh it was quite fun really. +That's nice. +Yes it's good, yeah. +Well last year I've improved the margin on that something something wicked. +Cos er we went through it last year and I all the sizes that we only supplied, I just put them up +Mm. +and er if they were if they weren't making a reasonable amount you know,eight and a half per cent, ten and a half on some of them. +Right. +And on the ones cos they were trying to s screw us down to the floor and on the popular metric where they I knew they were gonna they could find better suppliers, I was only about two per cent on some of those. +You know, one and a half per cent. +And I said to them, Look I've re-costed all this, this is your new price sorted, and he said, we can't see what price increase we made. +And I said, well, you know, overall it's gonna be what we said, you know I said, we I've tried to meet your targets, I said, but I've had to to increase some up fart higher than others you know. +. Got away with it. +Bloody Hell. +They believed me. +Oh dear. +Er +. +Oh automatic that should be, eight per cent automatic. +Check price increase done eight per cent. +If yes, enter end date of which date? +November ninety three. +Thirty one ten ninety four. +Yeah. +. +Yeah. +Don't have to do it done that one. +Dear oh dear. +Limited. +That should be automatic, November ninety three. +sorry about this. +That's alright. +date ninety four. +ninety three. +Wonderful.. +? +. +Er automatic +Quick. +manager of . +So this hopefully . +Yeah. +Right then. +Limited. +Oh dear of dear. +I don't think I've done any business really I think I've just written that account off. +So P O A customer. +P O A . +list. +What we could do actually is with a we could have a +I think I've just dumped it to the +. +We really ought to have these n these P O A customers with their pl with with their blind lists on the computer. +Yeah. +And we could factor em up. +Yeah. +So if you decide you want to some er eight per cent +That's right. +Yeah. +Right, Instruments. +Well I think do something like that. +They do something very similar to that. +Mm. +They have this blind list +Er sorry er Instruments Limited. +Automatic November ninety three. +Check price increase done +Is this print picking up people who haven't had a price increase then? +It's picking up people who don't have end date. +Oh right. +It gives us an opportunity to say, if the end date's not been done, has the price increase been done? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah,with an end date have actually been done. +No because if the end date is . +If you have a look at the end date,price. +Price. +End date, thirty one ten ninety four. +Is that November? +Yes. +Yeah. +No. +No not end date thirty one ten ninety three.. +P O A customer. +Let's write him off. +Got to be yeah. +P O A . +Seven two O four E T A. +Yeah, they use that +Yeah that's right. +Yeah, you know all about that don't you. +Yeah cos you were in precision.. +. +No. +. +Er . +I don't know anything about that. +Engineering. +, November ninety three, automatic. +Eight per cent thirty one ten ninety four +. +item. +Automatic . +check price increase +worried about this one. +I put that price up more than the standard, that's wrong. +This is one where I put the price up and then we went and wrote to him with a net price list showing a lower price than I'd put up and we had to reduce it. +So it's got to put up it's gotta be put up eight per cent, I can tell you that. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yes, thirty one twelve ninety three. +I'm annoyed about that. +You know we negotiated one price,didn't get . +And then we we're sending them the net list and saying there's your new le er price +Sending them the net list +and he said, this is lower than what you'd said it was gonna be. +You know. +Took the legs from under us didn't he. +That's terrible.. +. +do the next page. +Automatic . +. +Er . +Right,, P O A. +P O A by the way, another thing I'm thinking of doing is saying, if you want a net price enter in there, it has to come through a manager or +Yeah. +Good idea. +And er we'll have a a summary of what have got net lists and what haven't. +And then you say whether yes or no. +You have to sign it off . +Yeah. +. +Oh this one. +We had some fun with it Yeah we just done this one. +Oh we're on fourteen, area fourteen. +Yeah . +One one ninety four it should be. +Yeah. +That's right okay. +Erm and then we've just done a letter to them with the new prices. +So that's okay. +Well +We haven't done it yet have we. +Well I don't know whether you . +We've done a combined jobby here erm We've done er . +here they are. +The prices should be . +According to that dated the ninth of December. +Oh no that's wrong then. +Check price increase done. +Letter ninth of December. +nine twelve ninety three, if yes,ninety four, if not,. +Yeah. +this is P O A I think. +Isn't it? +No it's got a an end date +Oh it has got one one ninety four, yes you're right. +Yeah. +Yes. +That should be er negotiate, one one ninety four. +Yeah. +. +I think we've put I know we've put erm eight per cent on on everything that's now outstanding so it should all go up eight per cent. +Check price increase done eight per cent on new business, yeah? +Yes one twelve ninety four. +If not,ninety three.. +Oh we c they cancelled them. +Oh is that what it is? +I think so, yeah. +Ah. +I assume so. +Yeah there's no there's no cost ass +No cost. +So if it w it was after the receipt then it would be +Be +It would be a negative margin wouldn't it. +Yeah. +The profit would have been minus cos the costs would still be there so it must be a cancellation. +Mustn't it? +That one is the same size isn't it? +Yes. +That's a C three fifths, the C M +Yeah. +And then no that's not the same. +No. +I dunno what's happened there.. +That's a shame . +Limited. +er that should have gone up eight per cent. +Check price increase +I don't think that has gone up. +I'm pretty sure that hasn't . +eight per cent. +If yes +Ah yeah that's why because because our business was smaller but business was big. +With our size we could just put up by eight per cent. +If yes it would be what date, thirty one twelve? +Well it's it's +That's right yeah. +getting frustrated. +in a very matter fact way. +He writes it all down, he sends it all in and expects the system to handle it.. +Mm. +Yeah but sh he should I mean on the road, you should be able to just write in and say, I want this to happen. +That's right. +Yeah. +But it doesn't. +Yeah . +It doesn't happen on the pricing, that's for sure.. +that's under review at the moment. +Just cos +Carry on. +Just cos we can hear you when you're in here. +It's got nothing to do with that Roger. +Nice one Tom. +Touché. +Just tal talk into don't talk +Just talk +away. +There you are you see, and you thought we were joking . +Get on get on with your business. +Yes. +Right, what I've come round here for er I'm going to Israel in a month. +Oh right. +Right. +. +Yes that's right. +I wanted to talk to you about the things that er you've got from the meetings and to just think about the pricing issues. +Erm and what you might say . +Yeah. +Alright, well when you've finished here perhaps we can touch base. +Touch ba that's a good one, touch base. +signing out. +I don't know. +Yeah, erm I don't think we increased this. +Erm we quote once a year for it really er Shane this is one that +Mm. +comes out for tender. +Right. +And it should really it's I think we should put November automatic on that. +Thirty one, ten ninety +Three. +three. +Yeah and check that we've had an increase. +Check price increase. +Yeah. +I don't know whether it's been done or not. +I really couldn't tell you. +Eight per cent. +Check done. +Right that's okay.? +that's not mine. +That's okay I can can I +That's n yeah that's well that's erm that's now erm erm . +So you ought to +That's my boy. +Yeah, you ought to get the dates in that for that. +Again that's in as well. +Right.. +Yeah that's in as well. +These are national accounts aren't they. +Yeah, well that's in isn't it. +That's That's not a national account. +No +That's . +An area nine twenty? +Oh I know why administrative receiver. +Administrative receiver. +Oh right. +was administrative receiver and then it went over to Limited. +Oh right. +So you need to check with on that one just to make sure that area code's right. +Ok. +Fine. +Right. +with me. +That's it thank you, I've now been through the lot. +Smashing. +Now I need to talk to er . +Right erm +And make sure that she can +Yeah. +go through all that. +if I leave this here through, I can tell her what she want what i want her to do. +That's it, and then erm then we take it to the next stage. +Yeah, well the next stage is as I say to +one of the priorities is to get on with the price increases and get them done, right, you know. +The administration, even if it goes wrong, we can catch up with them later. +No cos that's the mistake we made . +Well alright. +That's the state the mistake we made before. +Yeah. +Well the I mean the we won't leave it too late will we? +I mean, there's a few that's been done that haven't been caught anyway. +Isn't there? you know there's +a few we've increased. +Well that's what I mean. +Yeah we want em caught up now. +Precisely, if we leave it too late then . +That's right I agree. +. +Yeah, I meant from me, I'm not I'm not doing any more and I'm not I mean, I'm just keeping this log +Yeah. +to administer the price increases. +I'm not going to do that any more Shane. +You're not? +No. +Only in as much as where we are. +I'm gonna continue with that +Yeah. +But I'm not gonna c I'm not gonna administer if they're been done or not and double check every model. +Oh no. +No that's right. +That's what this . +Yeah. +That's why she +Agreed. +Yeah and I'm not saying that you know, this is yours get on with it. +No no no. +No I understand that. +No. +If you like, I've been doing a job which I shouldn't be doing. +Yeah. +Right, it shouldn't be my responsibility to do that it should it should be accepted that it's gonna be done. +It should be done. +Any decent run organization, it would be done. +Yeah. +go through the P O A customers. +Right. +Sorry I thought we'd finished but we haven't. +Aha. +Er Precision Engineering, P O A . +Yeah. +Yeah. +. +Don't know much about them, yes go on. +Well if you don't recognize them. +P O A. +Yeah. +. +Yeah go on. +. +They're either dead or No that's November ninety three so that's +No that's a that's a that's it's only one size but we should have that recorded as a +Well you see, that's the point. +Oh right. +Okay yeah, sure. +Engineering. +got it yeah. +P O A cust +P O A customer yeah. +That's +Oh sorry +Yeah yeah. +Medical/ +Yeah. +Yeah they're they're dead. +Dead.. +Yeah okay.. +. +yes, all rollers yeah. +. +Cancel. +Cancel. +you can't leave it it's dead, it just sits there.. +Yeah. +. +Yeah. +. +One size isn't it. +Cancel they're dead. +Yeah. +. +Don't know anything about it. +It's automotive isn't it. +Yeah. +. +forget that. +That's that was some stuff you see. +Yeah sure. +And then and I think they've they're a subcontractor that's died. +. +Yeah. +Got to be in Coventry isn't it? +Don't know what they . +. +? +. +Yeah. +it's . +That's erm yeah. +Yeah it's automatic +No it's no it's not beginning to recognize these things. +Yeah but it's a long story behind that. +Yeah that's definitely . +. +did you? +Yeah.. +Yeah that's P O A. +. +yes, definitely a P O A. +. +Mm +That's dead. +That's dead yeah, it's now erm . +. +Don't know anything about that. +Not worth worrying about. +dead. +No it's not,i that's just the history man. +Alright, okay . +. +Dead. +, P O A customer? +Yeah, well we don't so a lot of business with them, it's more distribution than anybody else actually. +Yeah. +I was going to say to you, you know erm engine of Peterborough, +Yeah? +do you supply them direct? +No. +I don't think it's one of our accounts. +I don't think we trade we don't trade with them. +No it's the only business I think we get out there is from and that's automotive. +I'd have thought had Oh mind you, have got a contract on bearing for for for . +Have they? +Yeah.. +Oh right. +I don't know I don't know I don't know anything about it. +Yeah. +the O E side. +. +No. +used to do er he used to make sure he got precision when he wanted it. +Oh right. +Yeah... +Yeah fine that's +It's really to make sure that there's nobody on here that should be on there . +yeah. +That's all, to make sure there's nobody on here that should be on there.. +Yeah that's all right that is. +. +Yeah that's okay, leave them on P O A. +. +When do these prices go up? +They don't. +They don't? +No they don't I mean, the whole point is with P O A is what's wh what we're doing is sorting out should the customer be on P O A or should be on net list. +If he's on P O A and he should be on net list, we need to change it, if he's on +. +Right. +Once we've done that we can then start examining the list to see what's on the list. +Yeah. +And on the P O A. +On some of these P O A's if there's a big potential, I'd like to have a dummy net list. +Yeah, that's what I want. +So we'll be saying, look these are the core sizes, +Yeah. +but anything out of that, we don't want to know +Right. +these are the prices we quote. +Right. +Do you follow me? +Yeah, I mean I I don't know what what but that's obviously by the look of it. +Yeah. +That's the sort of thing you're interested in isn't it? +Not not two of this +No that's right yeah. +That's so what. +Engineering. +Engineering. +Yeah that's P O A. +. +yeah the same. +. +I thought we had a net list for them. +But er go on leave them on there leave them on there +Ooh are you sure? +leave them on there. +Go on. +Well I suppose you what the thing is we +Leave them on there . +Yeah. +Yeah I think so. +Er +Linear account that. +Yeah well leave that leave that alone that's alright. +But it should really we should quote volumes for that and they do volumes business. +Right. +But they always go market and they go against stipulation and buy when they want to. +They they supposed. +They're not, no.. +Yeah I know. +But erm they do. +Mind you I want to try and get them to take . +That's different. +Yeah. +That's made in the U K. +That's right yeah. +. Power Tools. +it's all bloody walls isn't it. +Yeah.. +Isn't it . +It is no it's part of Group but it's power tools down in . +Oh right. +Hydraulics. +. +. +Yeah. +yeah forget about that. +. +International. +That rings a bell, that's the same account actually. +. +That's de that's cancelled. +. +, yeah leave that on. +Yeah . +Engineering. +. +What's the next thing? +. +Yeah that's alright. +. +I don't know what that's Yeah. +. +Fine yeah that's that's . +Is it? +No no no C F C. +No no . +They don't come back. +tell you about it . +They don't come back. +They don't come back. +They go +They don't come back . +Bang. +Bang. +Weapons isn't it. +. +Yeah. +. +Yes. +? +Yeah . +Yeah. +. +business . +Oh yeah, special bearings yeah, leave that. +. +yeah. +Yeah. +. +yeah leave it on. +Leave it on. +.. +. +. +I mean I can't take them off I can't cancel them off . +No okay. +Oh well if they we can't cancel them off, that's alright. +. +. +. +Don't know anything about them. +. +, that's alright. +. +Er yeah, that's okay,. +The . +yeah. +You can le you can't take it off so leave it there. +I don't think we'll ever trade with them again. +Yeah. +No.. +. +That's the sort of thing we should have isn't it. +Yeah. +Yeah. +We've gotta do a new record card you know for the . +And when they're all filled in we shall in here. +Well what would it tell you? +It'll tell trading an account, contacts there, percentage of business goes where. +How are you gonna get that? +salesman's gonna do that over a period of time. +.I don't know. +They buy six X R J T four three forties. +Oh do they? +It ain't worth worrying about to be honest mate. +Course it ain't. +. +. +That's a bit special bearings special bearings job . +Company. +Yeah, that's gonna be a good one. +Yeah. +I want that put on a net list. +Whoo. +Yeah. +Change +To +to +net +net list. +that one size. +Alright. +End date, one one nine what do you want? +You want thirty first of the twelfth ninety four. +That's it. +well we've got one. +Got one. +. +. +. +. +Oh bollocks to that. +P O A. +Is that a new word? +. +. +Oh. +Oh that wants to be a net list. +Yeah does it? +Yeah. +Russell +Oh it's Russell it's alright. +It's okay. +It's alright. +You got list. +O twenty two. +That's right. +I don't want to do that then do I. +Hey that's interesting +that's interesting. +You've finished with me . +Yeah we do want a net list for that +. +should have done that by now. +Machines. +Interesting. +Machine Tools, Yeah this is all Russell's. +It's all Russell's. +Alright yeah thank you very much . +Okay. +very much obliged some more er . +Right thanks a lot Shane that's lovely. + +Right can I have your attention please. +Last week if you remember I was talking about the primary concern of the state, a concern er which is paramount is a concern for its security and I said if you remember that there was an approach er toward the study of international politics called realism which stressed the importance of what has been termed the power security hypothesis. +And if you remember I said that, because of its concern for security, the state creates a capacity for violence in the world of states, its, its environment and since this is er erm a characteristic of all states, however large or small the resources, they all create this capacity, they all have a defence policy er there is a consequent competition and this competition, far from resolving the problem of security, in fact exacerbates it, it makes it worse, and so states find themselves competing at different levels er competing particularly in the creation of military capabilities and the consequence of this is a more or less sustained and permanent arms race which frequently er produces armed struggles and war. +Now this er capability is not solely designed er for the protection of the state, the defence of the state. +That, that is its primary function, that's its primary purpose, but it has a secondary purpose as well it is concerned for the pursuit of what are now termed er in the jargon sub-strategic objectives. +That is er objectives which are not directly concerned er with the safety of the state er but with, with er certain of the state's needs a as a state er defines them. +Er and so er although in security struggles in the event of war we find er that these wars tend to become total wars, and we've had two of these in the present century, historically speaking in recent times we had another one, anyone know what it was? +Mm? +A total war? +Outside of this century? +Napoleon? +Yes that's right. +The wars with republican France and Napoleon lasted for nearly twenty years and although erm er temporary truces and peaces were negotiated, the struggle continued until the overthrow of Napoleon and that was, although it was a, a largely European war, it did have ramifications, it brought Britain, for example, into war with the United States in nin in eighteen twelve. +Erm and I suppose you could regard the Thirty Years War too er as being a, a total war in this sense in, in that the objectives of the war is the crushing of opposition, unconditional surrender. +Well fortunately these wars are fairly rare except perhaps in, in our present century. +Er but the most characteristic kind of war er our i is rather limited war a and violence need not necessarily be expressed in the form of erm a formal attack, it can be used of course to threaten or to deter. +And so we have a dimension of politics in international politics and within the state which is related to securing objectives which are not directly connected to security using the means of violence. +And the sorts of objectives that er these wars are concerned with er may be control over resources, over particular minerals, control over markets con control over trade the acquisition of territory or the recovery of lost territory and ideological or political objectives, objectives which are strictly speaking er to do with the belief system which predominates in particular states or where there's a conflict between states er which have radically conflicting er ideologies. +Erm the problem for the state in using violence in this limited way is first of all of course creating a capability to achieve by threat or use of violence limited objectives. +Now this is a problem er because if you don't sharply define your objectives and if you don't know what you need to achieve them, then you're likely to stumble into the possibility of an uncontrolled war e even into a total war whereas the original objective was not in fact er as serious er as, as er as that. +Erm in short we're talking here of the concept of rational war. +Now what is rational war? +Klausovitz defined this as a commensurability between means and ends. +Now by that he meant that the ends sought should be closely defined and should not change and the means adopted should be effective and they should not change and the consequence is that adversaries then move into er er conflict but the conflict itself is self-limiting in the sense that one side will accept defeat er and, and the consequences of victory and clearly these consequences are not so severe to the state as to jeopardise its existence. +If the means themselves are changed, if the war moved into a total war phase, then of course the security of those states engaged in that contest is immediately threatened. +Erm a classic example is of course erm the second world war. +None of the belligerents intended to fight what was called the second world war, they all entered into conflict, they all began er a rearmament programme with the idea of using violence as a means to secure lesser objectives. +Now what where these objectives? +So far as Hitler was concerned, and he was certainly the person who started the war, his objectives were, was to achieve a form of economic autarchy which involved the conquest of, of, of er territory in Europe er but which would not push his adversaries to the point of fighting a war of national existence. +He really believed that he could do this through, through the form of the Blitzkrieg, that is through a limited war er which would secure military objectives and then produce a political peace and the model er for his er policy was in fact the eighteenth century where many wars occurred between European powers wa impo imperial wars and wars on, on t on er total Europe, but none of these wars resulted in the destruction of any state. +Only one state disappeared. +Anyone know which state it was? +Mm? +Poland. +Yes Poland, that's right. +Poland disappeared for over a hundred and thirty years in a series of partitions erm er between it's ne er er by, by its neighbours and wasn't restored in fact to political existence until the end of the first world war. +Er so states could re resort to war and these wars were limited. +But of course limits are self imposed, they depend very much upon political will as well as upon resources. +There were some er structural factors in the eighteenth century which limited war, for example governments could not easily tax erm raising taxes by usually erm er monarchs, by, by er emperors er kings and so on, was not a popular move as the previous century had shown. +Er people did not, in fact, wish to pay taxes in order to allow erm their rulers to play the game of war and the limited sums of money available for these wars was soon expended so when your cash ran out, then you sued for peace you, you engaged in negotiations. +Another factor of course er was the fact that no state then could conscript, could, could in fact force people to serve in its armies and so on erm manpower was, was limited. +There's a host of factors of that kind which in fact kept the er conflicts to a minimum i in terms of their extent, in terms of the, the damage they did. +Frequently generals thought it best if they were outmanoeuvred to in effect accept an honourable surrender er and er bargains of this kind occurred from time to time between largely mercenary armies. +Well what happened to change in fact this er notion of limited rational wars with the means, ends in balance etcetera, the kind of, of erm halcyon days if you like to which Klausovitz wished to return? +Well the French revolution occurred and what the French revolution did, it transferred hus a huge assets to the, to the, the er government, it allowed conscription, a people's army and it also turned the biggest country in Europe er biggest with the exception of, of Tsarist Russia, er into a, a war state. +If you remember the attempt, the first attempt to overturn the revolution came from outside, it came from invading foreign armies and this gave them a hell of a shock, the re the revolutionary government. +We had the terror and then we had a series of successful wars which put France as a dominant power in Europe and brought inevitably er its neighbours, er those that were able to fight, into a permanent hostility. +In other words we have modern warfare first make its appearance. +Now the assumption that erm Napoleon made about the future of Europe was Europe with France as the leader and this is an assumption which challenged directly the political integrity of all the other European states. +Consequently that war or series of wars er was a total war. +Equally in nineteen fourteen when er the Kaiser invaded Belgium he made a direct threat towards British security. +As I said last week, he c he er made it appear to the British that he s sought to control the channel ports and with a large navy was then capable of interfering with our trade and in in indeed mounting an invasion, and that brought Britain into a war which could not be ended until the Germans sued for surrender and vice versa. +Now the point I'm making here is that security competition creates a capability which is designed to defend the state and that capability comes into direct conflict with non-security objectives which are er supported by threats er of violence. +In short the limited war always has the potential to become a total war. +I'm speaking here of the period of conventional warfare by the way, this is not the case with nuclear war as I shall show in a later lecture. +Well let's look at a few examples I'll take the Korean war of nineteen fifty to fifty three, the Cuban missiles crisis which, although was not an actual war, very nearly threatened a nuclear war, of nineteen sixty two and the Vietnam war of nineteen sixty three to nineteen seventy two. +Now the Korean war was a limited war in that the United St neither the United States nor the Soviet Union wished in fact to fight over the Korean peninsula. +What actually happened? +The whole story is not yet known, although it's claimed that North Korea er invaded South Korea er I sh I should take that as a hypothesis and not as a fact. +However, the event erm was that North Korea rapidly er er er conquered most of South Korea until the United States decided to intervene. +Now it used the United Nations as its cover and it's fortunate in that the Soviet Union was absent from the Security Council and so was not able to veto the resolution which authorized American intervention. +Now what kind of war was it going to be? +The United States got the United Nations to adopt a resolution which called for the expulsion of North Korean troops from South Korea, that was the objective, that was the immediate war aim. +How could this be done? +It was done in fact by a brilliant military er tactic er and indeed the Americans succeeded in throwing the North Koreans back over the Yalob the river Yalob So up to that point limited force had been used to achieve a political objective, the objective was to s s to erm contain communism wherever communism looked like spilling over into other countries, non-communist countries. +But then President Truman made a big mistake he got the United Nations to authorize another resolution which called for the unification of Korea erm through United Nations intervention and American forces crossed the Yalob +Now the big mistake was this it wasn't of ve of very great importance who governed North er North or South Korea, er they weren't particularly important strategic areas, they didn't have er important ports or, or er or base facilities or any resources then erm the mistake was in fact to directly challenge Chinese security, and if you looked at a map you'll see in fact how this er came about. +As the victorious American troops poured towards Manchuria, the, the North Korean border with, with China, then the Chinese beg began to become increasingly alarmed at the, at the notion of a united Korea right on its doorstep. +It warned the United States through the Indian ambassador to the United Nations that if this advance continued, that China would intervene. +The United States ignored the warning and the Chinese forces then made their successful assault and defeated the American troops very badly, driving them in fact into the south. +The war that followed was a stalemate both sides lost enormous casualties and the Chinese lost far more than anyone else, but the United States wound up that war with forty thousand American dead and with the only er partial success of managing to ma maintain the status quo in South Korea. +It was a case do you see of the end itself changing in the course of a war. +Now what are the means? +While the American forces are being defeated, its Commander in Chief then called for the war to change its character. +General McArthur urged the use of the atomic bomb against Manchuria and against Chinese targets. +So worried was the United States allies that the British prime minister flew er to the Unites States, to Washington, to er tell President Truman that if the United States used atomic weapons in that war, then this would seriously affect the alliance, the, the NATO alliance. +In other words we were, we were considerably concerned about the extent of the war. +Now you can see what would have happened if McArthur's advice had, had been followed. +The original objective was to liberate South Korea, it then began to unite Korea but if you raise the objective to an assault on China proper then, then you would have to quote General Ridgeway, who was a commander on the spot, er you'd be fighting the wrong war, the wrong time and in the wrong place. +What would be the purpose of that escalation? +And the answer was nothing unless you actually wish to attack China and er defeat China through military means and the task of doing that of course was enormously out of proportion to the original er cause of the war. +Er the Cuban missiles crisis. +Now here you had a very different situation because the nuclear dimension was now starting to become very important. +The erm onset of that crisis was the attempt made by the Soviet Union to emplace erm medium range missile bases on Cuba. +And President Truman, sorry er President erm Kennedy er a democrat, it's democrats that always seem to get involved in these kinds of wars as, as was the case in the Vietnam war, erm er President Kennedy in fact took this to be er a radical change in the strategic balance and th this is the way the crisis was represented. +But in fact the problem was the position of Castro and of the communist regime in Cuba. +The er Soviets claimed that, that these missiles were not offensive, and indeed the weren't offensive. +The United States had the same sort of missiles in Italy and in Turkey and, before this crisis had developed, President Kennedy had in fact ordered them er to be er er returned to the United States, these missiles had no strategic purpose at all because a major change that had come into the strategic equation was the arrival of the intercontinental ballistic missile, and it was these missiles, really, which held the strategic balance er and were to change in fact radically both international politics and global strategy over the years to come, but I'm going to talk about that later, the point I'm making here is that er Khrushchev claimed that the missiles were there in the event of an American assault on Cuba, they were a deterrent weapon in exactly the same way as the defensive deterrent weapons er were d were defensive er for er the United States and for the Soviet Union. +And the context in which this was er argued er was er the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, a C I A American supported invasion, er which er failed very badly but which certainly indicated the American desire to get rid of Castro and er Khrushchev was asserting in effect that he had as much right to defend an ally as the United States had er to defend erm its allies and in the same sort of way. +Now Kennedy had a dilemma although Cuba was in the Caribbean, and although the United States had the biggest navy in the world, and the biggest airforce and was easily able to exterminate Cuba if it wa if it wished to, it was vulnerable, however, in other areas, in particular it was vulnerable in Berlin and it was vulnerable in Indo-China. +In nineteen sixty one, prior to the crisis, the Americans had to face the rather humiliating settlement in Laos by which they accepted a communist erm er government, or at least a government which had communist members, erm Kennedy wanted to intervene in Laos but again was restrained by his British ally, MacMillan wouldn't in fact accept er that we should get involved in a ground war in Indo-China. +Er in the case of Berlin, the er situation there was er that Russia er of course the Soviet Union could intervene in Berlin more or less at will, given that it was a small island in East Germany and was always a vulnerable, always, always in a position of being a hostage. +So Kennedy couldn't act precipitantly, he couldn't simply do what he wanted to do which was to get rid of Castro, because if he'd done that then his policy objectives in other parts of the world would be in jeopardy. +He couldn't threaten the Soviet Union directly because the Soviet Union was a nuclear power and couldn't be threatened er so the course of action he took was intended to be moderate and to secure the objective solely of removing the missiles from Cuba, not of doing anything about the Cuban government or the regime or anything of that sort. +And so they came to a negotiated settlement by which the Soviets agreed to withdraw the missiles and the United States promised that they would not interfere with Castro again, although from that day to this they have maintained of course their economic embargo. +Er and here you have a case of diplomacy succeeding er and the spectre of war and possibly nuclear war erm fading out. +Limits were set in short by both sides on what they sought to do and how they sought to do it and these limits erm weren't self-evident at the time I can tell you because the American military, the Chiefs of Staff on the Executive Committee that discussed this an and took the decisions, were all in favour of making s air strikes on these bases and possibly er an er an armed intervention and so the military advice here er was er was rather similar to that of McArthur's, that is turn the, the crisis into er a different kind of crisis, turn it in fact into a war. +Now thirdly the Vietnam war, now this was perhaps the most harrowing war the Americans ever got themselves involved in and has had deep and permanent effects upon American policy making to this very day. +Now what were the limits so far as the Vietnam war was concerned? +Well initially the United States genuinely believed that with a small force, perhaps about a hundred thousand, maybe two hundred thousand troops, but principally using air power, that they could prevent the North Vietnamese from helping the Vietcong in the south and thus continuing the civil war. +Now one can make judgments about means and indeed as I was saying in my last lecture, the actual capability of the weapons you have can only really be found out when you use them and then you can see, very often, that they are in fact ineffective. +Now wa the, the erm war began with Operation Rolling Thunder and this was erm er President Johnson's plan er to pound major targets in North Vietnam by aerial bombardment and make, make the cost of their intervention in the south very high, so high that they would cut off the umbilical cord and starve the, the Vietcong into submission through ground operations in the south. +That was the basic plan. +He started off, as did Truman, in the United Nations by trying to get the Security Council to adopt a resolution er calling er the North Vietnamese aggressors and authorizing er an American, I E U N intervention. +This failed. +It failed because the French and the British were unhappy about supporting such a move and indeed the United Nations looked very likely er er to be more erm willing to condemn the United States than it was to condemn North Vietnam but the view of most countries in the world at that time was that North Viet that North and South Vietnam were part of the same country, that the Geneva accords in nineteen fifty four which called for unification should be upheld, and that the United States was interfering in, in a south east Asian country for no good reason. +So it is a hostile atmosphere and so hostile was it in the United Nations that the Americans decided to cripple it, and what they did was to invoke erm an article which called for the removal of votes from those states who were in, who were in arrears in the payment of their dues, of their, their funds and there were several countries in that category, two of them the Soviet Union and France, and the reason why they had not pal paid their dues was because they objected to the use of the, these funds for peacekeeping forces which had not been authorized by the Security Council, in their argument the Security Council was the, the supreme authority and the General Assembly had in fact not the right to authorize er peacekeeping activities and indeed, if you read the charter, this is the case although legal advice is conflicting on that point as it usually is. +Erm well the solution to that was to hold the meetings of the General Assembly, where the hostile American majority was, but not to permit a vote to be taken on any resolution and this meant that President Johnson could pursue his, his then secret plan of bombing the north without any hostile United Nations resolution being passed against it. +Two years later the Americans quietly dropped the whole issue and the, the UN returned to normal but by that time of course the situation had become what it was, er er a war. +Well limits then, so air, air, air bombardment and the use of some ground forces but principally to, to get er the South Vietnamese army er to contest er the Vietcong on the ground. +Well that failed as you would imagine it to fail if you take the civil war in Vietnam as being in effect a, a war of national liberation, as the Soviets called it, because what the North Vietnamese wanted was in fact national unity. +They were fighting for an objective which was far more important than local arrangements or local agreements er with er foreign imperial powers about who governed what er in, in their own country. +And so they were prepared to go on taking the punishment, taking the cost because their objectives were,ha had a different scale of value to the objectives sought by the United States. +Two or three years later with half a million troops they are still no further forward in their struggle in Vietnam and the cost this time was to the United States' political system because the effect upon domestic politics was fairly severe. +After the North Vietnamese revealed that they were able to sustain erm a w er their war in er erm the south it seemed regardless of what, what the United States could do to them, er after they'd revealed this in the Tet offensive of nineteen sixty eight, then President Johnson announced he would not be standing for re-election, and that was a significant admission of political defeat and if you remember, well you probably won't remember but you certainly should've read about it, President Nixon was returned with a, a majority er er on the platform of ending the Vietnam war. +The casualties I think were something like fifty, fifty seven thousand dead and a very very large number of people wounded because of the particularly beastly kind of war with all kinds of weapons being used. +Now why was the United States defeated and was this war a rational war? +Well the objective was the maintenance of a friendly regime er in a country which had become part of the American sphere of influence. +No one however at the time questioned why it was necessary to do that. +What was the significance of keeping South Vietnam in the American fold? +No one asked that question, they simply focused upon er the, the communist insurrection in the south and the American, American commitment to the global containment of communism meant that they had to go and do something about it and domestic political pressures were there too er President Kennedy came out of the Cuban missiles crisis a hero because his people mistakenly believed that he'd won a foreign policy success and that he'd acted in a restrained and statesmanlike manor. +Well regardless of the hyperbole and the rhetoric, in fact it was an American defeat er he had to accept the existence of a communist regime in Cuba and to keep his hands off it. +Now in the case of Vietnam, a decision had to be made to intervene or not to intervene. +If they'd not intervened er then indeed the consequences would certainly have been a communist victory so the intervention was necessary to maintain that policy position. +What limits would be placed, and Kennedy was very acutely conscious of the big mistake that Truman had made in Korea in, in fact, seeking to extend the intervention and bringing China into the war under no circumstances must China be allowed to take that step in the case of Indo-China. +Now this meant that the neutrality of Laos and Cambodia, er the main er route, the main supply route er from China, the, most of the weaponry incidentally came from the, the Soviet Union, China provided the facilities er so under no circumstances could the Americans intervene there, nor could they cross the demilitarized zone in force and erm invade North er Vietnam as they had done with North Korea previously. +Now these limits were fatal, they believed that they could win the war through air power and they, they couldn't and the ground casualties, although fairly slight, when you think of it fifty thousand people killed is not a bi a large amount in a major war, far from it erm although erm militarily not that significant, politically they were devastating because people in America started to ask the question, what is this war for? +Er and this of course er became er er a major domestic political crisis as well a difficult military situation, a difficult one to win. +Now the points I'm making here, firstly we have the problem of separating security from non-security er objectives. +We have the problem of defining and keeping er established limits so that the pursuit of a non-security objective does not lead you in to directly erm having to er fight a security war or a total war. +Now it's true that since the second world war all wars have been limited in one sense or another, but then comes the question, if you do, in fact, succeed in defining objectives er and de in defining the means to those objectives, how can you know in fact that you possess genuine capability without putting it to the test, without actually fighting the war and then finding that you cannot win it? +You can't win it by changing the parameters er if you do change the parameters of course then you'll be fighting a different war and your objectives then become different. +Erm the problem of limits then erm is paramount when yo you're contemplating threatening or using violence. +Think of the present problem with Bosnia there isn't a single er advanced industrial country that wishes to get engaged in ground warfare in Yugoslavia because there would be simply no point in it and any casualty er would be seen as a waste, as a throwing away of resources and you'd have many casualties it's argued. +It's argued that you'd need at least a force of eighty thousand troops, that's in Bosnia. +Erm well why would you er get engaged in a, a contest erm with er the three warring factions, because you certainly wouldn't be able to con confine yourself to one, and since there's no national interest as such, I know there have been many attempts to link er Bosnia with er peace in the world generally or with world order, in fact there is no threat er this is a civil war, strictly speaking, and th there's no evidence that it would er sp spill over into a major war unless it was made a major war er by those er with the er forces that exist. +Erm so how then do you stop the fighting? +How do you secure order? +And we now have got the first step er sorry not, not strictly speaking, the first steps of course were economic th that we had a strategic embargo and an economic embargo er on er on the Serbs and er on, on the er the, the different regions er th the first military step however is air strikes and we'll know er within a week I think whether in fact this step will be actually taken or whether the threat is sufficient to induce er the belligerents to come to a negotiated settlement. +It's a fairly low risk erm threat at the moment, air strikes are cheap er they're not particularly dangerous whether they're effective or not is another matter, er and there's no immediate come back on the domestic scene because no one is expecting any one state to be the saviour in that particular situation. +Er the United States er in, in short, the, the principal er actor here er is immune from criticism because if these strikes fail it's simply er bad luck, erm there's no cost to the United States that can be translated into the domestic er arena and made dangerous to the incumbent president. +Er this tells us that domestic political considerations are very important in deciding whether to use er violence or whether to threaten it or, or, or whatever erm so there is er er a domestic political dimension to this which is well worth examining if you wish to understand the limits that actually exist on politicians' powers. +Erm secondly erm if you do get engaged in a contest, the consequences of failure should be weighed before you actually get involved. +In short if you er ta er taking er Kennedy's decision over Vietnam, if he decided to do nothing, this would have been very damaging to him politically because of the declared er policy of the global containment of communism and the expectations of his domestic public that the United States would take action to defend the free world wherever the free world was challenged without much questioning about what the free world actually was, I mean the fact that er er South Vietnam was run by a rather squalid dictatorship was neither here nor there erm so erm you have to er evaluate when you're contemplating er actions of this kind what failure would mean in domestic political terms. +Now Mrs Thatcher certainly did this er when she authorized the Falkland expedition. +The consequences of failure there wo would certainly ha have meant her removal from office erm however she did calculate erm that within the limits she set that success would be,wo wo would in fact be the result, and it was. +It was a strictly limited operation. +The Argentinian mainland was not threatened, er the major erm influences in the region were placated, particularly the United States. +The, the force levels were added, were sufficient given the inability of the Argentinian government to reinforce er the Falklands once the action had begun and again the equation of air forces etcetera were, were evaluated. +I think she had a fair amount of luck, but luck is always an el element in anything of this kind. +Erm the demonstration effect of failure should also be considered, that is if you fail once you've undertaken an enterprise, this will affect your other policy objectives too, that is er you will be seen to be weak, your commitment to intervene on behalf of other allies might be seen to be, to have weakened er and, and generally you, you might have done your, your overall foreign policy stance er some, some considerable damage. +Erm the world is indeed inter-related erm we are talking in strategic terms of a multilateral er er erm system just as we, as, when we come to the later lectures we will see, as is the case with economic relations. +What a country does in one part of the world reverberates throughout the system. +Er there are interests all over an and some er have a higher value er er and some have a lower value but they are all related erm so it's not possible to regard er a contest solely as an isolated advers adversarial struggle where you're weighing up the rel the relative forces, the relative military capabilities that exist, you have to consider a whole range of political, economic and strategic effects of, of your, your, your action. +Erm anoth another example of a successful war was of course the Gulf War. +Now here again calculation of forces er and er the, the er er conduct of operations was in fact strictly limited. +The Iraqi armies were not pursued into their own country, er the attacks made were largely erm the fairly cheap and as we now know fairly ineffective er air strikes and that the main contest was in fact over Kuwait which was indeed the declared objective er of the whole operation. +In fact the erm er the, the actual agenda was far more to do with the price of oil than it was to do with er who ruled Kuwait. +Erm but the point there is that restraints were observed. +Bush said this will be no Vietnam and he well understood and everybody else well understood what he meant by that. +Erm the limits, the means, the ends were held in a commensurable relationship and so we have an example, if you like, of a rational war, a war in which the objectives can be er successfully attained er without them changing er and the means held. +Well that's as far as I want to go with this, this particular topic, erm as is my practice I'm ending now so that we can have questions. +Erm I'm ranging over a lot of what for you perhaps is historical material, given your age, but er you're probably not very familiar erm if you want to ask questions about er detail or whatever please feel free to do so. +There are a number of books on contemporary world politics and you've got some recommended er for you to read. +Who'd like to ask me a question? +Cos I'm not recording this for myself, it's for a, a publisher who wants the department's lectures on tape for some reason. +Before we start this morning I'd just like to make one brief announcement er one of my colleagues has asked me to announce er a lecture to be given on Thursday at five fifteen, that is er directly after the second systems lecture of the week, erm on the title of the transition from totalitarianism to democracy, changes, challenges and opportunities in the former Soviet Union and it will be given by the Baroness of Queensbury erm and that's er at fife fifteen, one four one in this er in this building. +Thank you. +This is the first of er two lectures on the American presidency and erm I want to begin just by putting the presidency in, in context erm thus far I hope it's clear that the American pol political system is one in which authority is firstly limited by the constitution in which authority dispersed by the by virtue of the separation of powers. +We know that the congress has the legislative power but the president has a veto. +The president, according to the constitution has the executive power that executive power depends to a large part on the willingness of congress to provide the legal framework moments in which there is harmony and cooperation between president and congress tend to be exceptional rather than er a regular feature of the American system and if er the president manages to get something through congress, you can bet that very quickly the president will face some defeat in congress shortly thereafter to remind the president that the United States does not have, contrary to the popular press, does not have a presidential system of government. +And what has happened over time is that, in the twentieth century, with the advent of two world wars, with the impact of the worst economic depression that the world's ever seen, with the rise to global dominance, both economic and military, indeed one might say culturally, the rise to global dominance of the United States, the scale and er scope of the U S executive branch has grown and with it an increasing er attention and focus on the presidency. +That's understandable and to some extent justifiable but if it creates the impression in anyone's mind that the U S has a presidential system of government er then they would be sadly mistaken. +The Am American system is one of, as I've said, a dispersed, limited and shared form of authority and the president is but one actor, and in Reagan's case not a very good one, in that particular er set of arrangements. +Okay I think what we've seen in American politics in the last twenty, twenty years or so is a, an in is er an increasing trivialization of politics the er the mass media, the so called er piranhas er focus on the daily lives of presidents. +We know much more about the state of Chelsea's teeth than we do about the state of the nation. +We know much more than anyone could possibly want to know about Bill and Hillary's sex life er than we do er about prospects for economic recovery and this has happened to successive American presidents and it happens in part because in the U S the president and his family, and it has been a his so far, the president and his family take the part, not only the part played in England by the prime minister, but also the part played by the monarchy. +The president is both head of state and head of government and in that capacity serves to some extent as a symbol of the nation, a focus for loyalty and Americans have a curious capacity for er im imputing to whoever wins the presidential election a set of er outstanding qualities. +So that every American president is a sort of half breed, a cross between Daniel Boone and Jesus Christ and that however corrupt and venal a politician he might have been before, once he assumes the White House it is assumed that he changes. +They talk about people growing in office always worried about people who think that forty seven year old men can grow, but there you are. +Er the, the, the office itself, the trappings of the office transform the man. +So even someone as obviously corrupt as Richard Nixon, people started talking about the new Nixon, new Nixon the statesman. +They stopped saying, you know, would you buy a used car from this man and started talking about him as the international peacemaker. +And this means, or this has an impact, this dual role as head of state and head of government, has an impact on what any president can do. +Because a very large part of any president's time is taken up in the ceremonial, in the ritual, in meeting heads of states from other countries, from opening the equivalents of garden fetes, receiving parties of boy scouts, er and whatever else the Queen and her family do these days. +Er and that means that the president's attention is both diverted from substantive concerns and it also means the president, there's a limitation on the extent to which the president can appear to be partisan. +So the president tries to encapsulate the national interest to embody the common good and he puts forward policies, not in any spirit of er personal or partisan advantage, but simply for the good of the nation. +And so you have then a political system in which you, which you have a presidency er faced by a powerful legislature, a president who is not part of legislature but who has to lead the legislature without any significant controls over it a very difficult and demanding task. +Erm one of the best known commentators on the American president, a man called Richard Newstat er who's occasionally known as Mr Williams because he's married to er Shirley Williams a clapped-out Social Democratic politician of er yesteryear, erm Richard Newstat once said, well once said many things but er on this particular occasion said that er if you want to know what presidential power is, it is simply the power to persuade and that er when you look for er an American president what you need to look for er is not somebody who is clear minded, far sighted and so on but you need somebody who has the capacity the skill, the talent, to persuade other people to do what he wants them to do. +It has to be persuasion because he has few, if any, powers of coercion unlike the British prime minister. +Okay well if we look into the development of the presidency what we've seen is a gradually changing conception of the office. +Er I said I think in the first lecture, the founding fathers saw the presidency as a check, as a control on the legislature er and er in periods of crisis legislatures find it very difficult to respond. +Any group of five hundred and thirty five people find it difficult to agree on a common purpose or a common decision and increasingly, in period of crisis, attention turned to the presidency and presidents were not always willing to supply the leadership er that er the country expected. +Erm presidents of the nineteenth century very often took the view that the president was not much more than a sort of constitutional monarch, er a dignified part of the constitution to use er Bagehot's phrase. +Erm in the eighteen fifties, in the years immediately preceding the American civil war, the er then American president er was placed under great pressure to do something about the increasing tensions and increasing conflicts between north and south but er he declined to do so. +Does anyone remember the president before Abraham Lincoln? +Not many people do. +Erm his name James Buchanan James Buchanan was asked to do something about the violations of the Fugitive Slave Law, this is the one that returned slaves back to their owners, erm and Buchanan said, I quote wisely limited and restrained as is the president's power under our constitution, he alone can accomplish but little for good or for evil on such a momentous question. +After all he is no more than the chief executive officer of government, his province is not to make but to execute the laws. +Congress alone has the power to decide whether the present laws can or cannot be amended so as to carry out more effectively the objects of law. +Apart from the execution of the laws the executive has no authority to decide what shall be the relations between the federal government and South Carolina, any attempt to do this would be on his part a naked act of usurpation . +So you have a very particular view of the constitution, that given by the founding fathers and one which is still in force some seventy eighty years later as America headed towards its most momentous and divisive crisis in its history. +Now this is a turning point in, in American history and er cometh the time cometh the man and the man in this case was Abraham Lincoln and Abraham Lincoln took a rather, a rather different line. +And I shall quote to you from er a message of Lincoln's to congress in eighteen sixty one and from some of his er private correspondence. +if you remember the question that the founding fathers faced was how do you create a government which is strong enough to endure and to defend the nation and defend the country yet a government which is not so strong that it erodes the rights of individuals within it, this is the, the essence of the, the problem of government as, as the founding fathers saw it. +During the er civil war Abraham Lincoln er suspended, unilaterally, without consultation, er suspended the writ of habeas corpus who knows what habeas corpus is? +Right to a fair trial, any, any advance on that? +We must have one lawyer amongst our presence surely. +Mhm. +It literally, it literally means produce the body only you can't simply, well the difference between a constitutional system and er an arbitrary government is that in arbitrary governments people get arrested and disappear, locked up, throw away the key and worry about it the next generation or after the next er military coup or whatever but in a constitutional government there have to be procedures and one of the safeguards of individual liberty is that if you're ever arrested and detained by law enforcement agencies you have to be produced before a court within a specified period and charged with something. +There has to be evidence produced to say why you are being detained and you have a chance to, to refute that evidence. +Er as you can imagine in the circumstances of the civil war the government, the federal government, was much vexed about the question of spies and fifth columnists and people er in the, in the northern states er engaged in sabotage and collecting espionage of, of various kinds so er Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus. +There were arrests, people were detained er without trial, they weren't charged with anything but on suspicion of being spies for the confederacy. +And Lincoln was criticized, attacked for this, that er and he said in response to this the attention of the country has been called to the proposition that one who is sworn as the constitution says to take care that the laws be faithfully executed should himself not violate those laws a fairly reasonable proposition you might think, if your oath says to uphold the law then you start going round breaking the law er something wrong here somewhere methinks. +He goes on to say of course federal laws were not being obeyed in the confederacy because they'd rejected the entire panoply of federal laws and Lincoln goes on to point out must they these laws and the confederacy be allowed to to state the question more directly, are all the laws but one to go unexecuted and the government itself to go to pieces less that one be violated . +So you get the impression here of Lincoln talking about an unusual crisis situation in a letter to one of his mates in eighteen sixty four Lincoln goes on Lincoln goes on to, in his letter to a friend to deny that civil war was fought to, to free the slaves er as a moral crusade, he wants no part of that argument. +Lincoln says in a letter to his friend er Hodges in eighteen sixty four, quote I am naturally anti-slavery. +If slavery is not wrong nothing is wrong and yet I have never understood the presidency conferred upon me an unrestricted right to act officially upon this judgment and feeling and I aver that to this day I have done no official act in mere deference to my abstract judgment and feeling on slavery. +I did understand however that my oath to preserve the constitution to the best of my ability imposed upon me the duty of that nation of which the constitution is the organic law. +Was it possible rhetorical question was it possible to lose the nation and yet preserve the constitution ? +Now here we move in to a bit of Plato always be aware of those who argue by analogy by general law life and limb must be protected yet often a limb must be amputated to save a life can you guess what's coming next?but a life is never wisely given to save a limb . +Pretty acute stuff eh? +I felt and this is the bit I like, I, I some I, I used to set this at one point in the examination question and ask people to guess which American president said it I'll read, I'll read it to you measures otherwise unconstitutional might become lawful if indispensable to the preservation of the constitution through the preservation of the nation just, I'll just get the essence of that,measures otherwise unconstitutional might become lawful if indispensable to the preservation of the constitution through the preservation of the nation ninety percent put Richard Nixon er no one put Abraham Lincoln er cos he was one of the good guys right or wrong I assume this ground I could not feel that to the best of my ability I had even tried to preserve the if to save James Buchanan is essentially the Pontius Pilate of American politics he says yes these are very acute problems er and very difficult er and I'd like to help but I'm sorry I can't and I really do have to go off and wash my hands now erm and, you know, you carry on and when you've resolved it tell me what you want me to do and I'll, +I'll do it. +Lincoln takes the opposite view, Lincoln says here is a crisis the person uniquely placed to deal with major crises in American politics is the president and I, Abe Lincoln, stand forward and I'm prepared to do almost anything if in my judgment it's necessary to preserve the nation and the constitution. +So from a view of the president as impotent and ineffective and helpless you have a view of the president as being er the action man, the crisis manager and it's Lincoln's view, the Linc Lin Lincolnian view of the presidency which has survived er an and developed with, with the odd, the odd hark back to a previous, a previous age. +And you find successive presidents er claiming some special authority that the constitution doesn't give them but which they, they believe that er a accrues to them by virtue of they're being presidents. +One of my favourite presidents, Theodore Roosevelt, president from the early part of the twentieth century and known as the damned cowboy erm you might be interested to know how people become president erm Theodore Roosevelt was an arch imperialist and got very excited about the er war with Spain er America had a s little brief war with Spain at the end of the nineteenth century erm over the possession of Cuba, and erm in eighteen ninety eight, and this aroused great patriotic feelings in all red blooded Americans and especially in Theodore Roosevelt and er er Roosevelt formed his own company of cavalry called the Rough Riders and erm Roosevelt wore glasses and was asthmatic but he had this group called the Rough Riders, sort of early kind of Clint Eastwood stuff, and erm anyway he g he was engaged in the war with Spain er and there was one wonderful moment in the war Spain in which the Spaniards were at the top of a hill called the San Juan hill er and er Teddy, as he was known, of course he gave his name to the teddy bear, did you know that did you? +You learn something every day in these lectures. +Er Teddy Roosevelt down at the bottom with the Rough Riders the guns at the top of the hill, the horses at the bottom of the hill you've heard of the charge of the Light Brigade haven't you? +They were smart guys compared to Teddy Roosevelt. +Er Teddy Roosevelt leads a charge of horses up hill, up hill, into the mouth of the Spanish guns smart guy, smart move how did he become president after doing something as fatuous as this? +Well fortunately the Spanish were even more incompetent than he was and what the Spanish commander, instead of rubbing his hands at the prospect of er the damage they were about to wreak, he discovered that they had the wrong calibre shells for their guns and Roosevelt and the Rough Riders overran the Spanish guns a and Teddy Roosevelt became a war hero and on the strength of becoming a war hero, he become vice president of the United States, got the vice presidential nomination and in good American fashion the president was shot er by an assassin er and Teddy Roosevelt became president, so there you are, there's a there's a career plan for you to er to think about. +Erm Roosevelt was er despite the er rather unusual route to the presidency, really rather a good president but he had a, he had a very particular view of the presidency which was one which he shared with Lincoln but he took up Lincoln's arguments and, and developed it further and I quote from er Roosevelt's autobiography, which is rather more revealing than most autobiographies, erm Roosevelt wasn't modest I should say in case you, if you wonder when I read you something. +He says in the autobiography erm my view was that every president was a and this was a famous phrase every president was a steward of the people, a steward of the people, bound actively and affirmatively to do all he could for the people and not to content himself with the negative merit of keeping his talents undamaged in a napkin curious turn of phrase I decline he says to adopt the view that what is imperatively necessary for the nation cannot be done unless the president can find some specific authorization to do it in the constitution. +I did and caused to be done many things not previously done by the president. +I did not usurp power but I did greatly broaden the use of executive power, in other words this is the modesty part I acted for the public welfare, I acted for the common wellbeing of all our people whenever and in whatever manner was necessary unless prevented by direct constitutional or legislative prohibition Roosevelt suggested that the president subject only to the people of the United States and he identified himself with Andrew Jackson and with Abraham Lincoln. +To Roosevelt the view propounded by our friend James Buchanan was narrowly legalistic in which the president was the servant not of the people but of congress and this, to Roosevelt, was . +So you get, if you like, a development here er of presidential authority and the perception of the presidency both from the point of view of incumbents and from the point of view of the American people and gradually in the twentieth century you get an increasing focus an increasing focus on the presidency as the engine of government, that it's the president who makes things happen, it's the president who fixes things, it's the president who responds to crises and as the crises become more frequent and the crises become more intense so the focus on the president also expands and the Buchanan view is now no longer tenable, the Buchanan view it's not possible for any president to play the dignified monarch. +They like to do it a bit but they really can't sustain it because ultimately there's a, there's a call for action, a demand for action. +In the twentieth century er the president who did most to, to develop the office further was, was Franklin Roosevelt, Theodore's cousin er and Franklin Roosevelt, who became president in, in the nineteen thirties and the time of the great depression, and remained president for, till nineteen forty five so He was president for thirteen years er and his political opponents were so upset by this that they actually amended the constitution afterwards to prevent any future president from serving more than two terms of as president, so eight years is the maximum that anyone can serve as president. +Roosevelt served for thirteen years and led America through the depression, into the second world war and emerging at the other end as + +Oh well there was clothes and gardens and and just the same as it is now. +But oh that's where the Was it the Clydesdale bank that's at the top of Castle Street? +Mhm. +That was and that was a grand shop. +We used to all wear pinnies, white pinnies, on the top of our dresses and going to school and I used to go into old Mr n and he would say to me And what colour of the bow do you want on your pinny today? +And I would say He'd wait for me to say, Blue to match my eyes. +Just as a kid he would lift me up on the m up on the er counter, you know and me I was born in and then we shifted to the bottom, you know that white house, I think it's all offices now, in the the erm big gates of the cathedral. +You know at the bottom of the market green. +Well the house, you just went in a gate there and went up the stairs there. +So it was just My mother used to see me across the road with my shilling to pay for my pinny. +And one day I dro I dropped it down the the drain as I went into the shop. +And I tears of course, you know, and er the poor old man he was a very small man, Mr , and er he lifted me up and told me never to mind, i could get another shilling. +But I don't know whether I ever got . +Or whether I got the pinny for nothing, I might have easy. +Yes? +Did you have to have a different pinny every day then? +Oh very nearly. +Oh yes, but they were just things that you tied at the back and and er had a frilled round here They were bonny. +On the top of your dress. +And what was the pinny for? +Oh just dress. +You were dressed in a clean one, you had a clean pinny on. +You know, just a thing with sleeves and and er han hang loose on you. +You've seen pi pictures of that surely. +Was that to keep the dress clean? +I don't know I think it was just to make us look pretty with a white pinny on the top of our clothes . +And did all the bairns wear t All the girls wear these? +Oh yes. +Nearly every girl. +Well when they were tiny anyway. +Mhm. +Well it must have been an awful job to keep all these white? +Oh yes and then we Oh whenever we had anything like picnics or anything like that, we had lovely white dresses that were made of what they called nun's veiling. +What could I say it was like? +It was a sort of woollen soft material but very er thin. +And the ladies all when they were dressed they would have a skirt made of this and a frilly blouse with a high neck and er a silver buckled belt round their waist. +Did they wear very tight corset ? +Oh mercy yes. +Yes my aunt was Mrs David , and goodness me I can remember her having the laces pulled in. +just slim waists waists. +Big bottoms I always used to say . +What sort of things did they have to keep their waists in? +They looked terribly tough. +Well just corsets like that, and they're fastened on the front with things that clicked in and then sometimes they would have a What they called a Oh what on earth did they call that? +It was a thing made of whale bone that they shoved down side without fastening. +And there were just as stiff as boards. +Did they have to keep that on all day? +Oh yes. +Well did that not do any damage to their ribs then ? +Well you would think so wouldn't you but it Nobody ever to say anything about it. +Did did they have to wear lots of Do you remember your aunties or your your mother Did they have to lots of layers of clothes or they seem to be. +Yes. +And they they they very often, when they were dressed, they would have a little shawl that they would lay over their shoulders instead of a a long scarf thing you know? +They'd have a little fancy shawl or My Grandma used to always have a fancy shawl that Just a small thing that came, you know, a bit down their back and And my Grandma used to wear erm a white much It was just thing like a baby's A cotton thing, tied with a just a string, you know just to erm just a tie under her chin and it would have a wee bit of lace s on the corner, or the or the end of the tie, that was through the day and it was all ruffled, and then when she was on holiday and came into town she had a a thing on her head made of velvet and it all had fancy little things in it. +Very posh. +Did she live in the country? +She lived in Deerness. +Mhm. +Was it a big event to come into Kirkwall +Oh yes. +My goodness yes. +Some some of them were never in t I well I didn't know my aunt when I met her with a hat on. +My aunt. +There was one time she was all dressed up to go to town and I didn't know her because she had a hat on. +I never seen her with a hat on in my life before, but Grandma wore a a bonnet, when she came into town. +and Grandma was the same, she had a she had another little fancy hat that she wore. +Funny little things then. +Did Could everybody afford to have their own horse and gig or or was there a bus that came in or? +Oh never such a thing as a bus, was brakes in these days that went to the country. +They didn't have a horse bus of any kind, did they? +No Well Yes they had what they called brakes that came in. +And erm they the w it was a place called diamonds in Deerness. +Er Diamonds was the name of the farm or the place and then it came along to the lighthouse corner. +New Lighthouse was the name of the house. +that was one of mu un uncles that had that house and Well my cousins have it now. +And then they set off from there into Kirkwall about What time? +About nine o'clock in the morning. +And we sat in two rows and two horses pulling at us. +And did they have to stop and change the horses? +No no. +Just you see? +No no they didn't do tat. +But Granddad had a lovely little What could you call it? +A little gig It wasn't a gig either, he did have a gig but he had this thing, a sort of long shaped er What would you call it ? +I I've got mixed up with the names of the things. +Before my time +I think it's Oh by Jove it is. +Er and they used to sit in that. +Erm two little doors at the Well it's just kind of the shape of What could I say it's the shape of? +Well there would be a seat they would be facing each other in their seats. +There's a picture of Granddad in in erm that new Orkney book that came out. +Erm What's the name of it? +What the +N David David Stanley had a whole lot of pictures and there's an awful lot of pictures in it belonging to my Granddad and Grandma. +We're not in it but me cousins and uncles and aunts and everybody's in it. +Is that the the one. +The all the old photographs of Orkney I've seen that one. +Yes. +Yeah. +Well if you see an old man sitting there with a a shining fronted cap on you'll know that's me Granddad, in a white beard. +Is there any sort of shelter ? +Well when No no. +No shelter. +What happened if it was a pouring day rain ? +it must have poured on us but I can't ever remember it raining You know there was when we used to go to Deerness I had very long hair and we And Kirkwall wasn't just the cleanest of place at places at that time. +And my hair was gingery, more or less the colour of the map you know, or a little darker than the colour of the map. +And when I When it was opened out for me going to Deerness, well that was a great event. +Grandma used to always say, Oh I know she's on the bus because I can see her here. +And er when I went to school, Miss the old teacher, she used to take me out, er I used to go to the school ready to go to Deerness, we had to ask out a quarter of an hour early. +And erm when Because we went the first day of our holidays, right away, to Deerness to my mother's people. +And er I had to ask out this quarter of an hour early, well I got me hair all combed out all ready to go you see? +But Miss used to take me out into here, to the teachers cloak room and and er er plait my hair up again and s say to me, I'll take it out before you go away Isa, because there was It wasn't a clean place in Kirkwall . +Such a thing's never heard of nowad days I don't think. +So You said that there wasn't an upstairs downstairs kind of thing at all then? +Well I didn't feel it. +I never I never had that feeling. +We certainly were like being in the army more or less, and er there was the head servants and erm the under servants, you know? +But it was er we all sort of had a respect for each other and each other 's jobs, but there was none of this erm upstairs downstairs and running frightened for people or anything like that. +We all kept our place but we all It was As I said, just as if they gave you credit for what you could do. +It's in er Well how can I describe it to you? +But we never were made to feel inferior or er erm anything like that. +I never I was never made to feel that way anyway. +I just get so annoyed at this English women that wrote that book, Upstairs Downstairs, you certainly th th th We know that the butler and the cook are boss, you know. +They're the They're the head ones and they're place in you're sort of in charge. +But you don't rub up against that horrible feeling. +What was society i in Orkney just before you left, you said you were a young girl and you left about nineteen nineteen. +Yes. +Was there er was there a big gap in society in Orkney, were there You know were the rich were rich and the poor were poor? +Oh yes, dreadful. +Far worse than anything I ever met in the south. +And er there r there are no real er gentry in Orkney you see, and you'll always find that if anybody gets a a a Well as I said to one boy here, I said to him look here I said your old grandfather worked in that shop till his backside was hanging out his brigs. +And I said that's the reason that you can get a car anytime you want it. +I said I've lived lo long enough to know that. +I said And I always say that it's the Orcad + +Insert one row and copy and then insert another row and copy. +You mean insert +Insert +formulae? +That's right. +Over on the other side, erm you're given a range name. +You got a formula. +You see a range name, erm, average exchange let's say. +So you same address divided by average exchange. +If you copy that formula down to the cell below, what would you see? +Erm. +Then whatever cell was below average exchange. +Erm, it would jump down one, unless you adding +That cell address divided by average exchange. +The cell below. +You copy it down . +It down erm, it would come down a different, the wrong figure. +So let's, suppose you had C twenty six divided by average exchange. +Copy it down you see. +E three divided by average exchange. +That's getting on to the right . +Yes, not an absolute +No. +Okay, over to the other side. +Erm,erm how do you check whether ho how do you check how much, how big your disk is? +What do you type precisely? +C H two B S blank +Right. +Okay. +How do you find out what memory you've got? +To develop into your spreadsheet? +Sorry? +Where's your systems ? +Data +Data status? +No. +Changed your mind on that. +Right. +Check disk. +No, no that's on the disk. +It's, you go into status +Another unanimous +What the unanimous decision of the team? +Worksheet status. +Worksheet status. +Are you happy with that? +Yeah. +Happy with that? +Yeah. +Happy with that? +Yeah, +Yeah, I'll give you that. +Don't put you off. +Right, erm how does memory get used in One Two Three, Release Two? +Rapidly. +It, it may be true, not the answer we need. +Is it column blocks? +Column blocks. +Okay. +Bit more. +One +What's the key thing about memory, how it's used? +It uses up all the gaps in between the gaps. +The gaps in between. +That's what I was after. +Right. +Okay, how does Release Three and want to check the Windows differ? +It doesn't use the gap it doesn't use up the gaps between erm the distance working +Big distances. +What defines, what's a big distance? +That's right, is it? +When he fills up the gaps within the five hundred and twelve row blocks he gets. +Okay. +Er, why can't you use all of your expanded memory? +Yeah. +out the room. +I think it's because it can't address it. +I went out next. +No, you were all in here at the time. +on the phone +Oh, were you? +Oh, you might have been +I but most of you were certainly here. +Got as far as you could only use five hundred and forty odd or something was it +Saying you could probably only use practically only five hundred K +Why? +Because your main memory won't take all the expanded memory anyway. +Will it? +It will only expand, take something +Er, I'm not with you, sorry? +I'll pass it across. +Could you condense some +Yes. +When your conventional memory runs up, you can't put more into expanded memory. +What,wh wh feeling slightly bigger, you get three and a half, but er what goes into conven what goes into conventional memory? +What uses up the conventional memory? +spreadsheet +Well, I can't deny that. +like erm,all the extras. +The additional things. +Er, it wasn't what I was after. +certain things to go +Yes. +Okay. +Yes +Like formulae and things +So what doesn't go into expanded memory, then? +Data. +It is the actual text the input bit +That's supposed to go into the expanded memory. +Oh. +What did I say, doesn't go into expanded memory? +Numbers. +Well +Labels. +It's partly true, but +Labels. +No. +No, I think you're on the wrong track. +Is your conventional memory? +What does, what what only goes into conventional memory not into expanded? +Erm, I'd better tell you. +It's the sixteen bytes block. +That's the minimum amount of memory that gets used. +That is used solely out of conventional. +I'll give you half, anyway. +Right, er,same again. +Erm. +If you find yourself running out of memory, and you're working on a spreadsheet for a while, what should you do? +Save it and retrieve it. +Save it and retrieve it, that's the one, yes. +Right, why's that? +The other side. +. Why should, what does it do, if you save and retrieve? +Or what I want to know is but the question is +You take anything that you've in that you've erased on it and then put it back in. +Yes, when you erase something, it doesn't free up the memory straight away. +Okay. +Erm, when you erm, erase a cell, with range erase. +What do you get rid of? +Everything. +Just, just typing with any erm +You get rid of the format. +You get rid of when you do range erase. +No, you don't, no you don't. +Range erase, you just get rid of what's in the cell. +You don't get rid of the format. +memory in. +Right. +Yes, that's right. +You don't get rid of the format. +Okay, fine very generous there. +Er, erm, right. +How do you get rid of, what's the best, what did I say was the best way of getting rid of everything out of the cell? +Copy it all in to +Blank cell. +Copy a blank cell. +That's blank in what way is it blank? +no formula +No, no formula and what else is not +Not protected. +No protect. +No labels. +No. +No protect, is that what you mean? +Whatever. +top there. +There's no what at the top? +No Us or +No U that be unprotect. +Right, and no format. +Right, okay. +I'll give you that. +Erm. +How do you get rid of deadwood? +You chop +What's that? +I'll take a guess at you want and then it deadwood +exact part of the spreadsheet, +Can do. +That's one way. +How, exactly do you do the extract? +Or what menu options do you choose? +slash range. +So the other question enter extract. +File name extract it all in one go. +file name +Formulae or +Oh, values or formula. +Values +Which of the two? +Well, formulae will take the labels and everything. +Values will just take the figures. +There's no formulae I know that +So which one you want then? +Formula. +Formula. +Right. +Okey-doke. +Alright, I'll give you that. +That's one way of doing it. +Er, what's an another way. +Getting rid of deadwood? +Clearing columns and rows. +If you've done a diagonal. +You should be able to clear all columns the rows to the right of your +Oh, right, erase +Coming down, yeah +all those different ranges +Yeah. +would you say? +Right. +Okey-dokey. +Erm, I can't think of any questions there. +Er, how can you have eight K more memory than most of you seem to have? +rather than print the erm +Yeah. +Without getting the print wrong. +How do you +One Two Three, +Right, that's it. +Good. +Right. +Okey-doke. +That's the end of the competition. +Picked the right one on that one as well, didn't I? +Most of them were wrong on this one Right. +I missed some questions out Right. +Linking files, copying data from one file to another in various ways. +Erm so, there's various methods, we'll go into specific methods in a minute, but er, when you are passing data from one file to another, you ought to use passing and receiving areas. +This is the same, in the same way that we had passing and receiving areas, of passing data from one part of a spreadsheet to another part of a spreadsheet. +Erm, so you bring all the data down, passing over the simple formulae and then do one copy. +So file combine is the method. +You've had a look at that before. +Combine at range, try and arrange all the files into another file. +You only need to one file combine, that's one advantage, instead of three, so it's about three times quicker. +But er, there's also an advantage of passing and receiving areas as there is before. +Er, all to keep in clear order where information was going to and from. +Erm, instead of you can combine directly a range from one file into another file. +You can also er, another method, you could while you're working on this file, use extract to save that range of that file to a separate file,and then when you retrieve this file you can com you combine this file here. +This small file to there. +So you can either go that way or you go direct. +Erm, the advantage of this way is it tends to confuse most of the time, but it's a lot quicker. +It only takes half a second to save that relatively small range. +That small file, and it only takes half a second to combine that relatively small file to there. +But it might take half a minute to combine this range from this relatively large file. +So in terms of overall computer speed, that method could be quicker, but I don't recommend you use it actually, because it's risky. +It's risky in the sense that you change this file. +You save it, but you forget to extract that range to a separate file. +And then go to this file, and then you combine in this file here to there, and you don't realize it's an old copy. +That's a risk, that's where you get the wrong answers. +When you, when you expect that that that that takes the copy back in the old file. +Oh, it does. +When you do file extract, just er, saving part, it's not removing it from this. +Its copying it though. +Just copying it, yes. +Like you do a file save. +When you do a file save. +Your file doesn't disappear. +Right, now, the specific methods, file combine, is one method. +Er, file combine has its problems, though. +Anybody had any problems with file combine? +Yeah. +What's the problem you had? +the that, sometimes you can get combine figures with, with file display, but it doesn't combine correctly, or edit properly, or edit formulae +Formulae. +Right that's the problem. +Formulae. +Er, let's look at this spreadsheet here. +I've got an input number there. +A number on the grid. +In that cell I've got a formula, just multiply the number above by the number of the left. +Then got a label and then got another formula in a cell. +I want to copy those four numbers into another file. +So you each give those four cells a range name, which I have already done. +Range name, create data. +It's not my normal name if you notice, but the name those four cells data, okey-doke. +And er, I'll save the file, and er, I want to copy that data, let's say to here. +Put the cell point in there. +If I do a file combine and then copy and then just part of the file, so it's name you'll specify the range. +What range? +It's the range the range name data. +So I'll type that in. +Now what's the name of the file? +Well, the file is called F C V. Press enter, and there's the hundred, that's fine, but this should have a thirty in it, it's got a zero in it. +The reason being is that it's copied for formula across, see at the top F eight time E nine, and that formula has gone and recalculated straight away. +It's multiplied a hundred above by a blank cell on the left and you get zero. +So that's why, it's copied the formulas across. +I didn't want the formulae. +I was just wanted the numbers +menu. +There isn't an option unfortunately, erm, er, one potential solution er, which may well work, is to use file, combine add instead of copy, let's have a go with that one. +Add main range data file F C V and ah, there we've got the right numbers, a hundred and a thirty. +Look in the top left, there's no formulae. +Not that we want it, just the number, that's fine. +Er, what we haven't got though, is a label there. +There was a label in that cell, er file combine add, doesn't copy labels. +It doesn't copy formulae, it doesn't copy labels either. +But if, if you don't need labels, then file combine add is an acceptable way of coping the data across. +I just want to tell you, time I done that done that on a number of spreadsheets compared with the same label on one, on one +Yeah, that had a label in the cell, if I had A B C in that cell. +If I was to do a file combine add again. +File, combine add take range. +Take F C V. It doesn't know I've written the A B C, +Right. +so it, any, whenever I have a cell, put a label in +Oh. +it or a formula in it. +What it also does, as you see, is it adds what you combine combining two of what's on the spreadsheet. +So it's got two hundred there now. +So before you do a file combine add, you need to erase first, and then do the file combine add. +So that it doesn't add the numbers to what's on the screen. +Now, if you do want labels, as well as the numbers. +What you doing to do? +Well, this is the solution. +You set recalculation to manual, first. +You put a slash, worksheet, global recalculation and manual and then you do your file combine copy again. +File. +Combine. +Copy. +Name range. +Data, and F C V then file. +Right, so there's all the right numbers, and the label. +Still copy the formulas across, you notice. +But the formulas haven't calculated yet. +sorted out in your calculator, as soon as you combine them. +What I need to do therefore, is get rid of the formulae, just leave the numbers there. +How do you do that? +Er, how do I get rid of these formulae, that one and that one, but leave the numbers there? +Or some value. +Something value, yes. +Erm. +Range value. +Range value, yes, that's it. +You do slash range value. +It works just like copy does. +With one difference. +What's the difference? +Exactly the same as copy, but there's one difference. +The way copy works. +copy +Anything said at the back. +Yes, it is. +It doesn't copy the formulae. +It doesn't copy the formulae. +Yes, that's the difference between copy and range value. +So, erm, highlight what you want to copy, which is that, and then ask where do you want to copy to. +So where should I copy to? +Same place. +The same place, that's it. +Normally when you copy, you copy somewhere different, er, which I could do, but er, I'm gonna copy it to the same place. +So I just press enter. +If you copy it to a different place, does it leave the blank formulas +In the original place, yes. +somewhere else. +Use the second one just with the numbers, that's right, yes. +But I've copied over to the same place, what it seems to be doing provided the cell pointed out, you're looking at the top left. +You don't see the formulae any more, just the number if there's one there. +So that's the solution. +You set recalculation to manual, do the file from my own copy and then use range value to remove formulae So that's the file combining method. +Getting data across We'll go on to another another way of getting data across from one file to another is with a special type of formula. +Like this one at the top. +If I type that formula in a cell on a spreadsheet. +What's the two the name of the file, two greater than the cell address and it er, gets to the data from that cell and that other file. +Have you ever done, used these formulae. +Anybody used them? +By linking formulae. +You've used them +Linking files together. +For linking files together. +Right, and there's various pros and cons to be aware of. +So that's rather good. +So let's demonstrate first of all how they work. +I've got a file named sales one. +Here it is, and erm, leave these er, on this row er twenty five, I've got a total sales figures, and it's that total sales figure there that I want to pass across into another file. +Let me save this file. +That's the cell C twenty five that bears the total. +I've got a file called income two, and let me just erase what's here first of all. +Right, so we'll type a formula into this cell, this is where I want the total sales figure to be. +So type plus two less thans, the name of the file, which is sales one, two greater thans, and a cell address, C twenty five and then enter and that number one five four is, you got from that file sales one, in cell C twenty five, and I can copy that formula to the right, just like any other formula, I can copy it. +Erm, there we go, and er, we copy right C twenty five E twenty five, that's it. +Let me save this file. +Letting me go back to the sales file. +Have to change some of the numbers. +Right, let's save the file. +Let's retrieve the, the er, other file back again, and as soon as you retrieve it, updated it,data from the other file. +So, as you retrieve it, it's updated the file. +That sounds very good. +You didn't have to press any buttons, it just did it. +Shouldn't that be a range name instead of a cell address? +Er, well, yes, we'll come to that. +Wh why might you want to do that? +of spreadsheets are +Sorry? +Well, a group of spreadsheets +You put re you would want to put range names on the cell. +Instead of C twenty five, you have a range name. +Is that what you mean? +Yeah, well I manually combine at the moment the range names. +A number of range names from a number of +You file combine? +Yeah. +Oh, I think what you're trying to say is can you combine a whole range and not just one cell. +Right. +Well, I'll come back to that. +Let me go back to er the inco er the sales file. +Let's say we're gonna research a number of products. +The product er F write numbers. +Here we go. +Save it away. +Let's retrieve the other one back again the numbers +absolute type +That's right, erm, I can save it with the row on the other files, but the total is now on row twenty six, but this is still referring to the same cells, C twenty five. +Oh. +The row twenty five is no now contains a dash blind. +Erm, so that's not very good. +Erm, at least I spotted it here, and I can rea realize what the problem is. +Change that to a twenty six and then copy this er right. +But, er, you might not have spotted it, and furthermore, you might have er, referred to another row that contains numbers. +Here it was obvious that something was wrong, because you saw a dash. +But you could have er, be er could now be referring to a different row that happens to have the same numbers in. +Might not seen obviously wrong. +So, therefore you get wrong answers. +So, this is a big risk with these highlighted formulas, if you do it this way. +Of course, we're always going to be inserting and deleting and moving things about, so, er, the risk of this happening will be very high. +But there is a solution, and that's to use range names. +So let's go back to the file again. +Er, I could name that cell with a range name, that cell there, the first cell. +range name create, erm, in fact, I've already done it. +Th this cell, erm, C twenty six, I've named cell zero one. +That cell there. +Name cell zero one. +Cell zero two. +Name that one. +E twenty six, I've named zero three, and so on. +That's my normal naming convention, my normal naming convention is use the first two letters W L. W I've explained, and L stands for linking. +So you have to create a range name for each cell that you're going to link. +Let's go back to the other file er, I'm going to put a range name in, cell zero one on that one. +Cell zero two on that one. +Right, so I, I've put, got the range names on the first two, but not on the others. +Let's save this file and then retrieve the er, other one back again. +Let's insert yet another product. +Type in the numbers save it, retrieve the other one back again. +So at least the first two cells are still picking up the right two numbers, because we used the range names, we've inserted a row on the other file, but er, we're still about range names found where those cells are. +Whereas here and in that range name it's still referring to row twenty six. +So that's the solution. +Use the range names when you file formulae. +Sorry. +I want to erm, go ahead and put files formulae information three files one point one down +Yes, +Can I do that? +yes, you can have diff different opening formulae with a different part name in it. +Yes, but no not into the one cell. +You have to bring the two separate cells into +fourth cell, total number. +Yeah. +Erm. +You can't link a whole range to a whole range, you can only have to one cell. +So this a thing you won't like about it, is that if you've got er, thirteen columns and ten rows, that means you have to create hundred and thirty range names, which you won't enjoy doing. +Erm, but you really need to do it, cos the risk of things going wrong are very high, you don't Right, let's file I wanted to say a fe a few things about One Two Three Release Three, cos there are some differences on the Windows products. +When you retrieve the linked file one two three, release three of four, it doesn't automatically update itself, and it does here. +So what do you need to do in order to release three or four? +One thing you can do, is do file admin link and that goes and gets the data from the file on the disk. +It takes it then. +But I don't use it, er, because it's incredibly slow. +It can measure it and wait hours. +If you've got a, if you're linked to a big file and you got a lot of linking formulae, you can wait hours for it to finish. +So you want to avoid it at all costs in release three of four. +So what should you do? +Well, in release three of four you can have more than one file open at the same time. +Let me show you. +Here's the first file that I've got, this is the sales file, and, to bring the second file into memory in this, this One Two Three Release Three, you do file open. +That leaves this file in memory, but brings another one into memory. +Er, might as well move the next one in and that cell's got a file linking formulae which is updated cos of the files in the memory. +Let's just create a window, so we can see both files on the screen at the same time. +Right, so in the lower window, we've got the sales file, and the upper window we've got the income file. +The linking formulae in that cell. +If I change a number here, you'll notice,si since I change that number here it recalculates through to the other file. +The two files are in memory. +When you change one, the other automatically recalculates through. +So if you need to pass data across from one file to another in release three or four, they don't convert the files and then they, data transfers across virtually easy Any questions on that. +Right, er, we got tea or coffee or a soft drink +Ten, fifteen minutes. +How long do you need? +Well, a little bit about managing your files. +Is there a tape recorder in here somewhere? +has got it +By the wall here. +Oh, right. +That's why you're quiet over there, is it? +So a bit about managing your files. +Er, you shouldn't put too many files in one directory, cos then you can't find them, when you're looking for a file. +You see a whole list of files you can't retrieve, you get a whole list of appearing. +And, er, you probably retrieve half a dozen files before you find the one that you want. +Has this happened to you from time to time? +You can't remember what you called a certain file, and +Yeah. +it looks like it might be that one, got to try that one. +Not the one. +Er, is it this one? +No. +No, it's not that one. +You can retrieve quite a few,wa waste a lot of time, anyway. +Erm, what you want to do is to create lots of directories and put different sets of files in different directories. +Are you familiar with directories? +Yeah. +DOS. +Making directories. +Erm, the analogy is the filing cabinets. +Er, you wouldn't have a great big stack of paper in the corner of the room. +Well, er, if you did, then if you were looking for something, you couldn't find where it was, you know, you'd have to delve in, and you take ages to find whatever you're looking for. +But er, if you file everything away in filing cabinets, then er, you can go to the right filing cabinet, open the right drawer, maybe there's some folders in there. +Pick out the right folder, if it's got a tab on it. +Then maybe between various other pieces of paper, you find the one that you're after. +And, find thing quickly. +Erm. +So. +Erm, you want to put your own computer files in directories in the same way. +You ever created a directory? +How do you do it? +Erm, you have created a sub with DOS. +Created a sub-directory, right. +In erm, DOS, do you do M D +M D, that's right +space, back-slash +What does M D stand for? +Main directory +You, if you get the C prompt. +You've seen the C prompt, have you? +Mhm. +And, you wanted to create a, a sub-directory off the root directories known as root directories you would type M D space suppose you wanted to create a directory named put,put your budgets in. +Keep them in,press enter. +So that creates a sub-directory, off your root directory, called put. +You may have a list of directories as well, off the root directory, and then you've got a directory called One Two Three One Two Three programs in. +Mhm. +And you may have some other directories. +Then if you've got one called DOS. +Put the DOS programs in there +All that, all I can do is pick a file out of my come under One Two Three, but if you do that in Lotus you have to do the one two three first. +No, you can create a separate sub-directory. +I've got one two three and a black-slash +But if you put two three +and I put in in the sub-directory. +Yeah, that's what I mean, you have to do it on one two three. +No. +No, when you do make directories, you just put you wouldn't save it into +Oh, I think it +Saving it into one two three +Yes, but once you, once you automatically. +Yeah. +How do you get into DOS? +If you're in One Two Three of that suppose you wanted to make a directory. +use it. +How do you get into DOS? +We have to go out +I'd exit out +Yeah. +You could quit. +Yeah. +You could do, but then you have to restart One Two Three and re-retrieve your spreadsheet and all the rest of it. +If you choose system from the top menu, that puts you into DOS, but it leaves One Two Three there. +So you quickly get back so it's pointing at my one two three directory, so if I do M D +yeah. +if I do M D space put here, it will create a sub-directory, below the one two three directory, but if I want as a sub-directory from the roots directory, I have to type M D back-slash put. +That would make it off the root directory. +Erm. +You can also point, well you start, you can point at the root directory, if you wanted to. +Do you know how to do that? +At the moment it's pointing at this one two three directory, back-slash P back-slash one two three Now you point at the root directory +You directory +You use +You do C D sorry, I should have said M D If you want to make a directory off the root directory,you type M D to make directory. +If you want to point at another directory, you do C D change directory, and that's pointing at the root directory there. +Er so, when I want to create a directory called put off the root directory. +I can do M D space put. +I've got a directory here, now. +You may want to put further sub-directories below that, maybe for different years, ninety three, ninety four ninety five. +How do you how do you do that? +back-slash one two +Don't you do +Do the and then the back-slash and then the +Yes, you can do er, you can M D +Put. +Put M D I can do back-slash got a lot of space put here back-slash ninety three. +Or you could you could point to that directory called put first of all. +You do C D space put, so you're pointing at that directory, and then if you do M D ninety three, M D space ninety three, and then I've created a sub-directory in ninety three, below this directory. +You do M D space ninety four, and create that one, and so on. +And you can go further down under the ninety three and you may want to create further sub-directories. +So, the put is like your filing cabinets. +And these directories are like drawers in your filing cabinets and then you've got further sub-directories still, below that, then er, they're like folders, within your er, filing cabinet drawer. +So you put your files in these different directories and then, when you're looking for something, er, you'll find it more easily. +If you're looking for a budget file, for a particular year, and you know where to look. +How do you erm, well, to get back into Lotus, type exit, and then enter Hang on right back to the spreadsheet. +How do I erm, change it, so that when I do file retrieve, it lists directories in put ninety three. +It lists files. +If I do file retrieve it, it lists the files in put ninety three. +That's the directory here. +How do you do that? +Well, you could type it all. +what I do and then I could +Sub-directories Er, yes, you could type er, back-slash +back-slash put and then press enter, and it lists the sub-directories and you highlight that and press enter and then it would list where the files are in that directory, of course, I haven't got any, we've just created those directories. +Erm, but then ev every time I wanted to retrieve a file from that directory, I'd have to type in that put and the ninety three and all the rest of it. +How can I set it so that, soon as I do file retrieve, it lists the files from that directory? +Worksheet file directory. +Put the name of the directory. +Erm +Not files, yeah the +Well, +worksheet directory. +You're almost right +Worksheet directory. +Erm. +The file directory. +Yeah. +You do file +Directory +Directory +Yeah +Here. +So the display'll change the current directories. +The current directories, gotta be this one. +If I wanted to point at the put directory. +Put ninety three. +I type that in, press enter. +And then if I do file retrieve +bring that up and +it's listing files from that directory +Yeah. +straight away. +Sorry? +What I've done in the past, is erm, for file retrieve and then erm, on top of the original do a slash put and then enter, and that then gives me a sub-file. +Basically, it lists the files on that directory, yes. +You have to type put every time. +Not like saying, if you do this file directory, type the put in, then er, you wouldn't have to type put in every time you retrieve the file, from the directory. +Mm. +Right. +Let me just put the directory back to where it was. +File directory right. +Erm. +So the advantage of pu putting your files in different directories, is you find things easily. +One of the advantages. +Probably some others as well here. +As regards to various er other chores like deleting a set of files or copying a set of files, if you don't want the ninety three files any more you just delete all the files in the directory. +You don't have to pick out the ones that are ninety three, cos th they're all ninety three in that particular directory. +Er, another thing that's useful to do, is to name your files in a particular way. +Have a convention for how you name your files. +So the maximum length of the file name is, is what? +Eight +Eight characters, that's right. +So you could use different characters of the file name to mean different things. +Er, for example, the E A year as part of the file name, like eighty seven. +Erm, you may well have got different directories, for the different years. +It's not a good idea to include the year as part of the file name as well, because you might accidentally copy some files into the wrong directory. +You might copy the ninety three file by accident into the ninety four directory. +And if you've got the same file names, and you're doing a copy in DOS, you just overwrite them, and you overwrite the ninety four file with ninety three file there. +But if each file has got a unique name, then that can't happen, so er, if you copy the all the files in that directory have got nine four as part of the file name, then if it's got nine three then, er, you won't be able to overwrite any files, you have two sets of files in there, and you can sort it out later on. +Erm, in this particular spreadsheet system, there's a number of different files, for different departments. +So I've got the department number. +Just the two digit number in this example. +There's the second and the third character of the file name. +If it was a s single digit er, department, like department number six. +I'd enter that as zero six. +It always takes up the same number of positions in the file name, and that's useful as you shall see. +Erm, I may have budget files, actual files, forecast files. +There's a letter to indicate er, what that, er, is B for budget, A for actual, and F for forecasts. +Er, the different types of files perhaps, there's a, maybe a payroll file, I have a P there, and I have a access file I have an A there. +So, when you're looking for a file, you know you want, oh yes, it's for er department er thirty six er it's er payroll file, it's for nineteen ninety four and it's budget. +Before you start looking for the file, you know what the file name is. +So when yo you get a list of the file, you do a file retrieve, they're all listed in alphabetical order. +You can, you alre can very quickly focus in on the one you're after, and you'd be sure that was the one, and you retrieve it and it's there. +Very quickly. +You don't have to retrieve any different files. +Go searching through long lists of file names to find what you're after. +So that's one advantage of having a naming convention. +You find what you're looking for quickly. +Erm, another advantage is erm, with various er chores, which is copying or deleting files. +If I wanted to copy all of the department twenty two files to the, the A disk, the floppy disk. +In DOS I could type copy space D twenty two star dot star to A. You familiar with these er the asterisks? +What these mean? +What does an asterisk mean? +The whole file. +The whole, whatever's on that erm. +Would be all D twenty two. +It would have to begin D twenty two, and anything that follows erm suppose you wanted to delete all the nineteen eighty seven files. +What would you type in? +In DOS. +You type del, I'll give you that? +Then what? +Star dot, +Eighty seven. +Eighty seven. +Eighty seven. +Sorry. +Wh what eighty-seven? +Whatever it is, the department number, whatever. +Well, it's all dif all different departments. +Erm, eighty seven, then what? +Dot star dot star +Star dot star. +you've delete your column eighty seven . +Erm. +Well, it says are you sure. +What do you say? +No. +That's an honest answer. +It's not what you normally do, is it? +Er, most people, when they see a question like are you sure, they say, course I'm sure, yes. +And er, that does delete all the nineteen eighty seven files, that's true. +In fact, though, it deletes everything. +It's the same as typing star dot star. +Which you probably recognize as being everything. +Says are you sure. +Mm. +Say yes, it deletes everything. +So save yourself a bit of time like that. +And, so that's not quite right +It deletes star dot eighty seven. +Star dot eighty seven. +Now as soon as you put the dot, what you're saying is erm, that's the extension. +These are the last three characters and then into the extension,the they're probably going to be W K one. +Ta take the asterisk out. +Er, in erm you need to use another wildcard. +Do you know any other wildcards other than an asterisk? +Question mark. +Question mark. +That's the one. +Now what would you type then. +Down +One, two, three, four, four questions marks eighty seven. +Four question marks eighty seven +Question mark. +Can do a question mark, I suppose. +I suppose in the year I needn't do a star, a star if you wanted to. +Er, so what that question mark means is + +what d what do you want to know? +Can you tell me what your first er job was? +In the quarry? +What you were employed as? +Oh er I I've only been erm I've only had one job. +I mean er you know, I I was went in as a mechanical fitter and er stayed as such, getting sort of bigger and more responsibl bilities as I went Grew up. +That's all and then I I I was looked after the production machinery for about fifteen years the top here. +I was doing the the new developments as the years went by of course, we didn't stay still for long . +Can you can you give me some idea of erm w what it was like to start in the quarry as an apprentice? +W well erm you mean from the day one started sort of thing? +Yes. +Er well er one went up we we the fitting shop you see, was at . +Erm the it was about I should imagine well guess, three years old back then. +Cos two companies had amalgamated and built one fitting shop. +. The works and the people had sort of amalgamated and so they used the one place where they had a fitting shop. +Did away with one at in at this end, the new quarry. +And er b built a bigger shop, a more modern one. +Er of course one went, started work, very nervous, and er thought that everybody was sort of putting a tape measure and er Oh to tell you the t truth I I didn't know Well I knew there was one apprentice been there about twelve months or nearly twelve months . +They were younger than myself and er we'd been at but er we'd been at together. +We'd started at the same time. +And er of course, one felt a little more a little happier after sort of meeting someone you know because it's quite and I was very shy at that at that time. +And er of course everybody there were only about what half a dozen fitters in those days and erm er as a mark of their profession or trade in those days, they used to wear a white collar you know, with out a tie. +And er they er well er what shall we say,w we we have got introduc people introduced themselves and asked who I was and who my family was and all that's the usual thing you know. +Was that important? +Was that considered important? +Oh yes, they course the there was then er er relatives were then they sort of knew there were some who knew someone or cousin of whatever . +I mean there were so many h Well really whole families working in the quarry in various parts of the quarry you see. +And erm those erm Oh and then I was told which p put me off rather. +Er by the man who or one of the men who swept the shop and kept it clean and all the the the one of the labourers, that my job was to one of my jobs was to make the tea for the men. +So that put me off a bit. +Was it true ? +And I thought Oh yes, yes. +And fetch water for them to wash and that. +And erm so really three times a day I had to er make tea. +Er of course it took a bit of time to learn as to er you know the the rotation who the to take the tea from various men's buckets, they was buckets, or wher wherever they had their stuff in their bags. +And there weren't so many bags carried in those days as there were in later years, you know, the sort of er haversack thing. +And er having to er knowing you know which and what time. +I mean if er that w you you'd had it if if you w ruined for life if you er took one man's see but served two teas. +er say er yeah within say er two days or worse still, you could it the same day actually, because they used to have those erm er Have you seen them, those an oval tin with two ends, er it was split in the middle. +Have you seen them? +Yeah. +I've got one somewhere in the shed here. +Because you could I mean you could do the empty one tin in a day really . +And er tea and sugar. +But th the thing was that there was a mess room outside the fitting shop actually, but there wasn't much room there because er men from other jobs, er they p from outside, used to go there and eat. +So the our men er the fitters, had erm a table in the shop itself. +Erm with in a corner sort of thing with a thing around it and you know. +It was well I didn't see much sense in that either but er I mean if they were eating on the j er eating on the job didn't give you a break at all. +But erm anyway, the erm and some of the men, used to go The older men, used to go and er to the smithy and cos er the our the s fitting shop had a three fires at one end you see, where the am blacksmiths were. +Oh they weren't blacksmiths in in the ordinary sense of the word, they weren't quarry blacksmiths as such because they were more or less engine smiths you see. +Yeah. +They had to make and shape things for us well for for the fitters, the machine and that you know. +They they were w what would be called in the navy and that er engine smiths. +Cos they worked they didn't bash er ham sledge hammers and things like a shop and the gear for the quarry men as such, they Cos that was the usual work of the erm the blacksmiths outside in the quarry itself you know, in the b on the in the various banks. +There was one, usually one blacksmith per bank really. +W w w were these +Were these smiths still primarily concerned with forging? +Yes. +Were they? +They they they did the the forge work and all that you see, and they looked after erm the er the inclined brakes What we call the brake. +I haven't I haven't seen heard another name for them really. +Erm they looked after the w the ropes and er there was one one blacksmith, where he used to go on his rounds and check check the wire ropes and the hooks and that on the inclines you know. +Test them for sa Well that the insurance and the I suppose er the the the erm er what is it? +The mining er er you know the there's a a body which looks after the mining +Oh the inspectorate? +The inspectorate er men I don't know whether it's the same as the one that looked after the coal field and all that, but erm we we had an inspector coming round every so often anyway. +And erm the the that was part part of their work you see,the these blacksmiths. +And there were ooh a couple of what? +A couple of dozen of these brakes or more. +No at least a couple of dozen,working at that time. +So they were kept really busy. +Some of them were kept really busy just er looking after the brakes and and they they had to er check the er the erm hooks. +They used to take the hooks off the wagon you see, there were two hooks, one each end of the the wagons that they used on the incline. +And then they were put they were er put er in the fire wire brushed and all that and looked and inspected for cracks you see. +And that that came round er I mean they were stamped and er the turn you know the each I I don't I don't remember what what they were examined, but er th you know the the that was the law that they had to be . +There were piles of them in the smithy anyway. +that had been through the fire and they were taken out and you know whoever. +And h Well, no, they were put on the wagons actually. +Which were built in the wagon shops. +And erm +Can you give me some idea of some of the other trades that were represented in the er in the shop? +Oh erm they erm they did a lot of the work that were Well they helped out at least, they they used to make wearing plates for the mills and that for the chutes and that. +You see. +Erm oh they what else? +Erm oh there were a thousand and one things I I can't really erm you know they they were always they were at it hammer and tongs you know they had er s what would be called something similar to a steam hammer and you know. +Did they? +To do the job, yeah. +Er you know the the they had a f what was it? +Four hundred weight, pneumatic hammer. +So you can imagine the the the the he the amount of heavy work that they had as well. +Did they ever have a foundry? +Did they have a +No er well, No er not not that I remember. +But erm I remember er h having I was quite interested actually, er there was er a sort of loft in the stores. +And there were patterns up in this store you see. +Mm. +And I but I couldn't get up at them, the the storekeeper was fairly strict with us youngsters and he used to chase us. +But erm they were oh m er wooden er gear wheels, of all sizes and such things, you know. +Up in this loft say. +So I don't know whether they'd been sending them away, to be er as patterns to some other firm or what, but there was quite a quant there was er a quantity of of casting sand you know black stuff that you use. +Around the the the shop so, obviously they'd been either been casting brass, at some time or other. +Obviously . +They didn't do I I understand that the the quarries at and and those places used to cast their own stuff, but erm I I haven't I never heard of them actually casting anything erm ferrous anyway. +But erm the what we o very often did was er we used to run our own own bearings with white metal. +And we had er a special erm furnace for that. +And er we used to run Well most of our bearings, actually er white metal bearings and machine them afterwards. +And er we cast during the dark days of the war,when toys weren't available, we a few older blokes er apprentices used to I remember being at it for a couple of hard week we had a hard week, well evening during the evenings anyway. +Er working, sweating like like er real steel men,ca turning out soldiers and er and erm e somebody'd got hold of a mould of these er er toy soldiers you know, the old er lead soldiers that er +Yeah. +They used to come out in threes I think moulds. +And some aero aero aeroplane erm g er er what er I think they were If I remember rightly, they were the er Oh dear. +Forget the name of the plane now for the moment. +Yes well. +There were hundred of them flying round the end of the during the war. +Oh, designed for the coastguard. +Er coastal command. +Oh dear, never mind. +But we you know, one was one would be boiling the the white metal, we'd we'd fixed on the and er one would be boiling and pouring the stuff and the other cutting y you know breaking up the the mould sort of thing and piling the stuff out and as fast as we were piling them up, some beggar was creeping in and stealing them . +Oh dear. +You know, in actual fact, one of the men working in the in the in the carpenter's shop. +He was he'd been hurt that was the usu that's why some of the men did. +He'd been er had an accident in the quarry some time ago and he was working in the helping as a mate or something in the carpenter's shop and he he must have been h must have had his hands in our pile of finished products and er Well partly finished products and er he er he was caught one of the cos er these castings there was a an edge to them you know,the joint of the the mould that came together sort of thing. +They had to be filed clean. +This beggar had come in to the fitting shop,corner at the back corner, where he shouldn't have been. +I mean he wasn't supposed to be in the fitting shop anyways. +So the the manager our greatest enemy, we used to know when he started from the house in the morning actually by quarry that er he was coming, but the on this particular day anyway, somebody had slipped up somewhere. +And he saw this bloke you see, where he shouldn't have been. +Er filing away. +And he had this this erm casting of a plane you know he was cleaning up the edges gave the game away of course then . +Oh dear. +Anyway we I think we supplied dozens of youngs kids that had no toys during the war. +you know. +. Erm yes well th that's the only erm casting you know, that we did. +bearings for for you know, shafts mills really the old type crushers in mills that They were really old fashioned crushers. +And they had to be the bearings had to be either you had to have a s a set ready at all times sort of thing you know so a spare set. +Erm yeah oh the bearings we we they usually were bought from They were American er brass bearings, huge brass things you know. +They used to cost about two hundred pounds in those days and that was a heck of a sum in those days you know that sort of thing, how much they cost and had to be careful of them and all that. +And erm the other crusher, the Buchanan crusher up in in here, the the the primary crusher, the American one. +Well that that used to be sent away the o the main bearing the main er jaw bearing that was on the . +It was usually about six Was it? +Er somewhere about Aye getting on for five five foot long. +Erm th that was sent away to London white metal that that that was quite a costly affair as well. +That's the one that you see in this er book you know.. +Is that the one which was having the ? +Yes cuts in it. +Yes yes. +Yes. +And erm the old chief that designed er er erm a boring bath for it for boring that. +They they didn't they they just cast them roughly. +Well not roughly I mean they I mean they didn't sort of finish them off w wherever they was s sent to in whatever the firm I I I don't know the name of the firm, I was I wasn't involved in didn't bother as long as the job was done. +And erm the He made a boring bath so that the whole block it it was a massive thing you know, that that that had to be . +I should imagine weighed somewhere about five six hundredweight. +the capping. +Cos of the design of this crusher affair, the whole weight was carried on the c what could be the bap of the bearing you know, the bearing cap. +the whole lot down you see. +Oh I see. +On the on the You There was only the was only er three quarter of an inch out of centre sort of thing you know, but the shaft weighed ten tonne and you have this huge and it just l revolved of course and and the whole lot revolved under this cap. +So the whole weight of the whole er the gear that actually sent the crusher going and made it so the jaws the swing jaw swing and all that, was er hanging on the cap you see. +It didn't matter, the other half didn't matter because it didn't come into contact really with the with the shaft. +And erm the Oh he'd made I'm getting er losing my track. +But er he'd made er a boring bath from the chassis of a steam engine. +There was a spare one lying around We'd finished u er stopped using them during the war some time during the war. +Cos coal was hard to get and all that. +And er gone on to diesel. +And this old chassis had been built up so that this bearing lay on that and it was turned by and electric motor and all that and the boring bar went tool went and bored this bearing out and travelled along on its own its own It was fed off course. +you know it was a quite a a brilliant idea really . +Cos he was a brilliant man actually my my boss er my chief at the time. +He was the erm he came from Anglesey. +And he'd been apprenticed in Liverpool with a firm called they were ship repairers in Liverpool. +And er I suppose he he'd gone there when he was about thirteen fourteen and er he came from a family from Where was it . +And some of his rel relatives they farmed but some of his relatives were blacksmiths as well you see. +So he'd sort of had a well I suppose he'd messed around helped and played about in the smithy. +Before he even started erm when he before he went to Liverpool as an apprentice. +But he was a brilliant man he was years ahead of his time really. +Erm Ingersoll Rand w wanted him in America. +He was offered a job in America with Ingersoll Rand but he wouldn't go. +And erm he was by the way he was the er step erm father in law of the man who erm owned who was the erm building firm er in er er Oh dear they've gone now. +It's just been taken over by you know, it's gone into the big big time er Oh dear me, I forget his name now. +name of the man. +G Anyway +Oh er and er er he had a son who was a a dentist in . +John quite a well known dent he was a very good dentist. +I suppose he he erm William, William Owen old chief. +He used to bring his tools up during the war to er to er so be seen to you know. +Cos they they were hard to get . +. Oh yes . +And er one of the men that was helping the old man to to do something, to repair the the these tools you know, and he he'd gone to the stores to get something and leaning over the counter to get something er er to sort of talk as one goes on a on a counter lean he was leaning a on the counter, and he erm the the the storeman he was a tough little beggar, and he said, I've got a I've got a I've got a toothache. +he says. +And asked him you know, Erm which one is it? +And the other silly beggar opened his mouth and pointed to a tooth you know. +And he just dived in there and and got hold of it these tools er once you get a hold of those things you know they they're pretty They're fantastic you they won't. +I mean them they're designed to er so that they don't slip or anything. +And he held on the handle and he pulled the ruddy tooth out. +But he pulled thing was sorry thing was that he pulled the one next to the one that he had a toothache in . +Wow . +was tough, he's still alive in . +Er couldn't have done him any harm. +And er No but erm that's how the the old chief . +Erm as I say he was a he was brilliant man er I mean we all we I'm about one of the last of the ones that were taught under him. +I mean we were very fortunate in having been app er apprenticed under him you see. +Were you were you aware, before you went there, that erm you were going into You were going to serve under someone who was rather talented? +Well I'd heard of him yes. +But I was er here I was one of the first People have forgotten that there was such a thing as a fitting shop in you know, in . +And I started a fashion really in going, cos no-one had er thought of the thing for many many many years. +And erm later on let's see f when the war started and I mean they wanted cheap labour and all that, there was room for apprentice. +Several boys went to the fi to the fitting shop you see but the I'd started I claimed to have started I mean it's I mean there's no credit to me but at least I was the first You know I'd really started the thing you know. +Where had they come from before then? +Oh usually. +Yes. +Yes. +Yes. +They knew +more about it yes. +was the Well I suppose they had first claim in . +that sort of thing yeah. +But they came with the chief being an Anglesey man you see, they came from Anglesey as well to erm they used to come a lot in and erm as apprentices you know And er Aye no, the ol same old game again that er we in Wales seem to inherit it's in I suppose it's in the B B C and everywhere isn't it. +It's not what you know, it's who you know. +And er somebody's got a relative somewhere . +I mean happened even even with the monarchy and all that most Welsh people ran ran England when they didn't have it really did they . +These families that left Wales to help out with the Tudor and all that. +Erm I still er think I think they're still running Britain aren't they. +gone way out I've gone gone through to get to to Llandudno. +Erm th this tea making was a a er job of course there was a a break at nine o'clock you see. +Cos we started at at half past seven. +I used to catch a bus ten to seven, down when the in those days. +Never been late in my life. +Erm the erm Course the the blasting was on at nine. +They used to blast, first blasting at nine o'clock, throughout the quarry you see so everybody had to go in so that was an excuse for a break. +About ten minutes break. +Then cos you had er three warnings you got five minutes before and er then you had a the erm final warning and then the blasting and the they give you the all clear. +I mean it took about ten minutes, quarter of an hour altogether. +So if these beggars up at the top it was had been er thought out had a break well er it was alri =right for the others working down in the bottom to have a a break. +So nine o'clock break. +make the tea, go round the Used to take about three helpings of tea to make the the the bottle . +I remember we I had this sort of enamel brown enamel jug, ooh it was mm must have been somewhere about four. +Mm couple of pints at least eh. +Oh more three pints I'm sure. +Er and erm I used to put it in this and go to out into the mess room outside where they there was a cook and it was a very grand name for a person you know, a cook. +It's almost as grand as a chef these days isn't it. +The bloke who sits behind the ship in the chip shop. +Banging that basket he had they have,Erm and er the er used to go there er and there was a boil or was it er er an old fashioned I don't know. +Have you se have you seen them the old fashioned boilers they used to have? +Er sort of +Yes, half spherical, +Yes. +cast iron. +Built er with bricks built round it and er a tap we used to have a tap on it you see. +And the cook in that mess room and the cook was always a youngster who started in the quarry. +That's the way you started, up a ladder to the to be a managing director . +A cook. +You know like like the this thing about every soldier having a a a field marshall's baton in his knapsack . +anyway erm they started at Well you know quite an easy job but the the er s their wage was about sev I I I I forget. +I d I wouldn't know. +I think my my starting salary at fifteen was seven and six. +Out of that I had to find, threepence a day erm bus fare. +Excuse me. +And we worked six w six I mean we worked Saturday mornings you know, six o'clock. +Plus er going up going to you know, all that. +Sos there wasn't much left of the seven and six to kee feed me and all that . +And er I think after and when I became sixteen that er had to start paying your your m paying the union I had to join the union as a junior member you know. +And er hospital fund and all this business. +Anyway erm so you . +our standard of living Well our standard of living was alright. +I mean er didn't bring much home. +And er the cook I think the boys e had about er started on ten shillings you know, ten shillings a week. +Erm but er that was this boy's job and then he used to er you know, scrub the tables in the rest room and of course boil the water first thing in the morning. +And er wash the cups and And he used to have to go running er down with messages down to or down to the head office rather that we had an office in where where our fitting shop was where there was a draughtsman's office. +And a store, a store a sort of store clerk. +Cos we had other people concerned with the stores down in the head office as well, the buyers and . +And a couple of young clerks, that's where they bred their clerks for the future use sort of thing you know. +I see. +And this cook had to go down and carry messages back and forth and all that was his job as cook. +Not he he couldn't handle a a roast duck or er couldn't roast a duck or anything like that you know. +Or make orange sauce or er anything of that sort . +Er and I don't think any other most of them started and they're still here some of them. +Er still roast a duck any more than I can. +Well er not without a a book of instructions anyhow beside me anyway. +Er anyway the that was the cook's job and that was my job, I used to sort of go across and fetch this tea and have it ready by the time the men gave up work at nine o'clock. +But er I used to go I didn't eat with the men you weren't allowed to eat with the men you see, it was only the full men that sat round this table well +That was +Half about eight of them you see. +Well it was the same no distinction at all in that sense, but er you know we were sort of they had more serious things to talk about than I wan er you know I knew the cook, er couple of o other apprentices from the carpenters shop we used to go into the main th there was no-one to keep an eye on us in the in the mess-room you see, no-one to tell us. +So we could play. +And erm at the same time there was an old mill there as well, with an old er engine room. +Which had apparently been a a steam There had been a steam engine turning this er mill crushing mill and er er I remember there was a name in in this engine it was Queen of the Valley. +And erm we used to go and play in that sort of you know do the things that boys usually do. +Sort of Oh we used to risk our necks walking across the ruddy this mill was a bit of a wreck actually and we used to go playing in places where we shouldn't have really. +Anyway, that's beside the point. +But erm and then at during er before lunch and all that I used to have to go take a bucket and go to the smithy and erm as you may know, there's a a cooling er tank beside in the in er beside every every every erm blacksmith's fire and er you know to bo keep the er no t no to keep the nozzle of the +Of the blower? +blower going you see. +Oh. +How do you do? +How do you do? +Hi. +And this co er and used to get w hot water from this tank you see, lift it out with a ooh with some sort with a ladle actually. +Er and er put it in the bucket and get the right temperature. +Up my elbow and er anyway put it used to take it back to the shop and er well I was still inside the shop, down to a certain place in the shop and put it on a on a stand and then there'd be a on that stand, beside the bucket, was a a box of not Lux not Lux soap but er yellow soap. +Oh yes. +in Welsh. +And erm slabs of it it had been cut like er it looked you know if you sort of cut lard or something like that. +No you don't belong to that age either do you. +Erm you know you get it in packets now anyway. +But er you know used to sli cut it out of er big chunks. +But er there's be lump of this y yellow er stuff you know. +And beside that again, another box full of erm well partly full depended on what time of the week it was. +Erm dust quarry dust and er very very fine chippings you know. +So you got a handful of this yellow soap. +And er rubbed it and it was quite very hard you know. +And er put a dollop er dipped your hand into this the grit as well started rubbing using the water we'd got. +Some hot water. +And see my hands they they they're quite they're they're exactly like a er well shall we say an educated person's hand A person who's spent his life working behind a desk. +But you know it's funny how why it was so I mean the grit and those were quite sharp you know You you'd have thought that it would have taken your skin but then it was ideal stuff for getting the grease the you know the dirt and I mean the the greasy dirt away. +It's easy enough to dirt . +That was the method that we used and I didn't I never heard I didn't hear of dermatitis or anything until well twenty five years afterwards. +Erm I mean the one could very easily have have got er some form of dermatitis with all the you know various oils and stuff that we had to put our hands in. +But erm and all the old mill for milling that we used to used I mean kept our hands clean anyway. +So that was one job a and then we had a big used to beg for a an old sack from the stores and open that out and er I used to wash them wash it and get it very soft and clean and hang that up and that's the way used to clean and keep ourselves cl hands clean . +And er but for all this, erm funny enough we we had er a fair in twice a year. +we haven't had one for oh many what fifteen, twenty years a co er there used to be a couple of women used to come to sell rock. +Up to about twen they kept the thing going their pitch going I suppose twen to about twenty years ago. +But we had a a spring fair in April and the other in October. +I think so. +And the fair was on the first of October. +somewhere round that time. +I I'd er you know the older men would tell you. +Cos I I didn't sort of go by fairs and things like that, I belonged to a different generation. +Erm but erm come the time had come for for the fair let's say the the the Spring fair. +I'd get quite a surprise because very s small number of men in the shop. +I get about shillings eight and six, nine bob pocket money. +Fair money they used to call it you see. +Mhm. +Er I know er perhaps I was er civil or obedient or whatever, I don't know but er I I they u they used to have this this collection for the for supposedly for carrying the water, I don't know. +But erm er it was a a nice sum to be to take with you to the fair . +You know. +Er because it was more than a weeks wages . +To spend evening. +And used to happen twice a year and erm sometimes somebody'd remember my birthday or find that I had my birthday or and at Christmas time we used to get some money. +And this was out of a you know er I mean they were only what Oh couldn't be more than about six eight people working in the Well not actually fitters but er you know, they were involved within the shop sort of thing. +I don't know how many t other people were approached in this collection, I don't know. +But erm they were you know they were exceedingly kind really. +Yeah they were very kind too. +Cos their salary we we well their wages weren't much. +They I believe that er a craftsman's wage was somewhere they'd a take home pay at the end of the fortnight. +You'll notice that I say end of the fortnight, that was the settling time . +Er was three guineas. +Was it? +It was one and three an hour. +the craftsman and fitter's rate in those days. +And a labourer's rate was eleven pence an hour. +Mm. +Wh what erm what ye what year would this be that you sort of s +I don't k nineteen thirty seven maybe? +Thirty seven? +Yeah. +Mm. +Yeah. +And erm you know it was a a bad time really b you know it was the thirties I mean people say it's bad now but er I don't think it's it's as bad now as it was then. +I know the unemployment figures may be higher and all this business, but erm I mean er a single person during those days, er say a young man in his teens, working would been s stopped in the quarry. +They were bad times, they used to stop. +Er they were very fair er if I may bring in er this has nothing to do with my er well no it has as well. +You know friends of mine, I knew them. +Erm they were quite fair the the in this quarry then. +Cos if it was slack or anything they they used to stop the bachelors first you know. +I see. +Er you know I I I af I mean after I didn't think anything of it, and in those days I was too young of course to think of th things like that. +But thinking back I mean they they were it was very good of them really you know,the they were very fair. +Er in the way that they and they sort of well I suppose it was the situation in which the quarries you know sort of or and . +And er the foreman and bosses that knew people and they knew the circumstances and I suppose they put a word in and erm you know men were sort of stopped because er I mean, if a man had a house full of children or something, he'd probably be the very last you know before he was sort of forced to g you know sacked or wh And I mean they weren't sacked in a sense, they was always ready there was a place ready for them to come back to there. +But erm +So +laid off I suppose would be a more appropriate way of s of putting it. +So that it was it was generally thought of as being a fair system ? +Yes. +In the main I I should think yes. +You know you know erm a young man I mean it was er er reasonable wasn't it for a a single man to be laid off before a married man with family family responsibilities. +And er generally er with families being larger er in those days, erm there'd be perhaps another couple of sons working or or something like to help. +make a family income you know or or increase the family income. +Or So they could all eat at least. +And erm no well as I say, erm I think they were pretty fair. +I mean f I d I doubt whether firms would do it these days eh? +It wouldn't be considered fair today anyway. +No the union would step in probably and er say that er last in er first out or some ruddy +Mm. +nonsense like that eh? +But that's the memory I have of it eh? +Wh when you went in as an apprentice, did you have any i i idea of what the job was. +What it entailed? +Oh yes, erm you know, having been brought up w in a you could almost say a quarrying atmosphere that's the right er expression but erm I mean one knew what w went on in the quarry you know. +Erm mind you it was really a step onto something else that as far as I was concerned in those days I meant o go to sea of course and er that was the best place you could have er to serve an apprenticeship because everything er I mean it was one of the As everything was starting to get specialized in in other works nowadays it's gone completely now. +But erm we had a sort of a spectrum you know it covered such a wide well area if you like of er of engineering that one wouldn't have had a chance to to have a any contact with in in any other works, you'd be doing as one certain sphere you know a certain type of work, and there you are you that's your lot eh? +But we covered everything you know, steam engines and diesel engines and oh crushers and construction work and development and pneumatic gear, compressors and oh any damn thing that went going. +We made everything ourselves more or less. +And had a hand in oh designing really there. +We were always taught This er comes back again. +I think er you know this our our boss, er who Mr as he was called he was given his full title of er Mr William Owen , then. +I mean er much more should have been something should have been Aye he's well worth er within the engineering world at least, well worth looking into his life really. +Because he he he's done a a you know he he he's been a a a a what shall I say, a Well he's done a lot really to to to to to promote erm interest in engineering and all that and and he's done a lot in helping er to young men to become engineers and that you know. +He he he's erm really er the results of his his interest in teaching. +Er North Wales you know have have benefited. +Firms in North Wales here along the coast which came after the war of course. +Can you sort of amplify that if you can? +Well As I told you to begin with, he he he he must he was a man was er years ahead of his tim really. +I mean and he he although he er he wasn't a graduate or anything like that I mean he he was a brilliant engineer. +His ideas are as I they they say that he was er I don't know how much truth I that he was the first that he patented and devised the first rotating drilling machine. +Rock drilling machine you see. +Cos the f the the the they did have pneumatic drilling machines quarries. +For ooh from beginning of the century I suppose. +But they were only hammers in a sense. +They only hammered the they the the they didn't rotate. +I see. +They just r r rammed their way and you had an man the they had a man they tell me I I've never seen one But erm this was as far as I can make out er by the They had a man standing by you see with a a spanner and er gave it a quarter turn every time it hammered the the drill sort of hit the rock, went into the and hammered. +They had to give it a quarter turn you see with a spanner. +But erm that old the A and B we used to call them actually. +A and B. Erm there was no dis disrespect but A and B and er he'd erm he devised a method he what he did he rifled the inside of the the piston. +He rifled the inside of the the the the cylinder and the piston was rifled as well, you know slightly ribbed, so as it went forward it turned you see. +Came back and there was a er it couldn't turn cos there was erm Oh dear I'm forgetting my engineering terms but er you know it's a that's the . +And that's this is er I think I've already told you that he was offered a job with Ingersoll Rand which were the main er people that dealt with air and air products in the old days. +The American firm. +They tried to get him to America you see. +But he wouldn't go there. +William didn't want to take his overalls off. +Because he he liked to work with his hands. +Yes he was a heck of a man. +He could he was a brilliant machinist and er oh crikey I've seen him turn out a a three throw er crankshaft within a couple of days er you know without any precise measuring and and and in fact he just sort of put his roll on on on a on the shaft he was turning and just sort of gave him an idea as to I mean his eye was almost as good as many a bloke's measur measurement with a rule. +But er a three throw crankshaft for a bump you know couple of days to erm he was a heck of a man. +And he dis We had I haven't told you er didn't tell you or h I er don't think I've told you have I, that we did have a a chemist in the quarry you know. +Full time chemist. +Would he be analyzing samples? +Yeah analyzing yes. +Mr his name was. +And he apparently was a very very nice man too er I mean he was I mean er er er er a nice disposition I mean yeah. +they stand out . +And er oh he he was he erm during the war now come nineteen thirty nine and that stale period when er there was nothing doing really in France, between the time that er our expedition to the to the Maginot line and all that. +Er he went over s there was a plane laid on for him and he was ve went over very often to advise them on fortifications on all their concrete fortifications in France. +Did he? +Yes yeah. +Very well thought off actually. +And he designed some er I remember them being built. +Erm air raid shelters. +Built to his design under the rock face up at the top here in . +And er concrete and all stuff. +And er rock er dropped use that expression, they used they were both right at the at the foot of the quarry face or precipice or whatever somewhere around a hundred foot high and then th they blasted the top see and dropped a whole fall. +A fall is what we call you know a bundle of +Rock. +rock there. +Ah excuse me. +And erm on this er structure and obviously there wasn't a everything was fine inside it. +Mind you, no-one volunteered to stay inside when it was . +But erm all the intact + +Now, a slight apology to make. +This, things aren't going very well for me today. +Er, I missed the train, the video thing wouldn't work when I showed my film lunchtime and er, the book that had to read, er, unfortunately, is not in the library, so er, the le let me explain the background to this. +In previous years I haven't had a class on the and I thought I had one this year as an experiment and er, pardon me just a second hello yes, that was a little annoying to say the least, cos those students have come in specially for that, yeah,yeah yeah yeah yeah right Oh dear right certainly not well, would it be easier to show them in my office, that's seven, seven, seven? +Well, I could fit most of them in, I'm currently getting in about twelve, ten or twelve, I could fit them in. +Alright, let's do that. +Could we, could we have it from next Tuesday in my room? +That's seven, seven, seven. +Yeah, and you could perhaps let me, let me have erm, let me have one of those little ones. +Perhaps I could keep it, could I? +Right, okay yes, sure, sure, sure. +Well, shall we have it in my room for next week? +Thanks a lot. +Bye . +This audio visual, ah I apologize for that. +Sorry, this will be printing for a while. +It's just my new book. +I'm sorry. +You'll just have to put up with the printer chugging away. +As I was saying, yes, er erm, I put it down, erm are you gonna tell us the history of the book, or? +Yeah. +There is a bit of +Right, okay. +Well, let's wait and hear wh what says, he'll probably explain to you the history of why it is like this. +But as I said, I do apologize. +There was a copy in the library at one stage, although not listed under it was under , but I now see that when the other day I looked erm, according to er, there isn't even anything under . +Did you look under too? +Yeah +Right, right so I'm very sorry. +I won't do it again next year. +We won't have a class on that's just somebody that republishes the book. +But erm, anyway er, tell us what you made of it and we'll take it from there, I think. +Well, the book was er published in the early nineteen, well, it was written in the early nineteen thirties but er, it wasn't actually published until nineteen sixty seven. +Erm, for instance idealistic man primarily, Wilson, President of the United States. +So basically, subject given account of er Wilson's life and his personality. +In context the psychoanalysis in order to explain erm Wilson's actions and er, attitudes in the pres presidency of the United States during the First World War, basically con concentrates on erm . +Despite highlighting er Wilson's intellectual and physical achievements, for instance, he er wrote a very er, well respected book called Con Congressional Government in his earlier cabinet career, and also he initiated domestic reforms , the book is er generally quite scornful, reporting character. +Especially the neurosis he suffered from erm, throughout his life on which the his presidential and political career. +The main argument put forward by er, er, was that er was that Wilson suffered as an adult, because of the over oppressed rage he, oppressed rage he possessed, which was directed towards his father. +As a child, Wilson was er, regularly subjected to the darkness father and criticized and lectured the young Wilson. +However, instead of er releasing and dealing with his rage, Wilson er instead chose to strongly identify with his father, erm argued er Wilson never grew beyond his father identification, because the situation whereby er Wilson was full of, of the conviction that his er mission in life was somehow divided. +In identifying with what he regarded as his father, Wilson thought that he would er emerge from the war as a saviour to the world, so to speak. +two went further in an effort to oppress his rage against his father, and to avoid a highly threatening career situation. +Wilson identified with his father, to the extent of wanting to have genital, genital contact with him, since Wilson saw his father as the author of all his skills, his strength and all that he'd been grateful for . +This was based on apparently wrote to obtain er, or basically to obtain. +This is arguably supported by the close contact of the relationship Wilson had with his father, and Wilson's deeply held religious conviction, which he espoused in his presidency. +However, this subconsciously held conflict with his father in subsequent over identification with er led Wilson to be somewhat stubborn,perhaps even complicational as a, as you know, as presidency of the United States, which were, were often directed towards or often only minor details of his work, but he wouldn't he wouldn't actually range them towards say, any major . +Er, accompanying this accompanying this frequently not himself, which it occurred throughout his life, through his childhood as well, and his general +er sustained willpower which was highlighted by frequent illnesses, especially in his er president of the university, where Wilson suffered defeats and conflicts and transfer of reform of rebuilding the university, and also we see there er back part of his life a Wilson of his own er, seem to direct some of his rage against er, a coloured colleague of his, a . +Graham argued that all this is indicative of a person who hasn't grown, fully grown out of his childhood worries, problems, especially the er, he hasn't actually dealt with the true feelings that he had towards his father, and who instead chose to vent his rage on others and political career, which resulted in Wilson being, er well, losing some of his rationality, which led to his poor performance in er negotiating and gaining acceptance of the Treaty of after World War One. +Erm, apparently that's what the trouble with the ratifying in Congress that led him erm,some degree to another centre in Massachusetts. +Erm, and this also explains in part, why he er complains made by-rules and all concerned what was into Europe, did not materialize. +Er, I think if you're gonna try and erm, explain you know, try and assess the validity of the book. +Agree or ask yourselves why you agree. +Tell us about various reasons, not just study of value of the great of the greatest value there. +It seems Freud and perhaps even wanted to er, vent their anger on Wilson, because of his failures concerning the war and its aftermath. +Immediately after the war, when Bullett first approached Freud er, with the idea of writing the book, Freud was apparently feeling very depressed, and er, he was savagely critical of his own work, and er, because he had little access to patients during the war, he generally felt quite down and also by presenting written for him, all he would need to wr all he would need to write, and according to er,other people, perhaps he was eating, he was receiving just sort of waiting to die. +Whether that's er,I'm not too sure. +Erm, anyway, this was when Bullett actually first approached Freud ninetee nineteen hundred and twenty. +The disappointment with Wilson felt like Freud must have sort of lingered for quite a long time, cos it was not for eight years that he actually ventured on . +This was highlighting the fact, that although, er, Freud thought psychoanalytic should be used in a neutral nerve and not used for any active aggression, an exception seemed to be made with Woodrow Wilson. +Although some may be quick to say that the vast majority of the book was actually written by Bullett, and not by Freud, no less than the actual intellectual framework of the book apparently seems to have been due to Freud's input, er, Freud certainly was psychoanalytically trained, in any, in any sense of the word. +Er, perhaps the whole project could also be attributed, mainly I think, to Freud's desire to try and keep open the er, the er, analytic publishing house, which he founded in and which er, basically was kept together financially from the er, forwarded, forwarded er, royalties which Bullett sent from America. +er, the book has been very heavily attacked by contemporary writers even mentioned passing for the . +Complaints have been made, for instance, by erm, er,. +The er, book is based on an inaccurate and sometimes even fabricated evidence, due probably to the er, rather idealistic er, excitable ambitious er Bullett, rather than the peaceful like of Freud. +Nevertheless, evidence er, was dealt with by our assorted version parent. +Much due to the influence of Freud, cos of course, Bullett wasn't a . +Contemporary studies of Wilson by, for example, or perhaps even are apparently based much more on fragmented material than Bullett and Freud, Freud would allow. +I can't really clarify that . +Erm, for example, it appears that Freud and Bullett er, misinterpreted Wilson, especially as regards to the nature of his father. +For example, argues that Wilson did not have any sort of homosexual likeness for his father. +But that Wilson longed for a psychic union with fantasy, fantasy father. +So that er, Woodrow could experience a full sense of self, to actually relate back to his himself, which er, Wilson er, experienced only as a child. +His childhood. +Er, you have a sexualization of such a long period, Wilson, er, didn't seem to have, sort of, being recorded to his sexual fantasies of that nature. +Although there is er a general agreement that Wo situations were, were re really more complicated,in the Wilson family, er,Wil erm, Wilson actually certainly loved his father, his er his mother an and his er father. +Er,Wi Wilson, er, did not seem to allow his father's wit and criticism to get him as much as Freud had er, suggested. +Er, certainly evidence seems to suggest that a very genuine and close relationship developed with his father. +For ex for instance, they er, often confided in one another , usually when they to see what they actually er share each other 's deepest thoughts, and this continued throughout later life, it could be argued bu but it continued throughout later life and what they, they often communicated by er, by letter. +It could be argued from this, that er, Wilson's father began to identify more of his son rather than the other way round. +Especially as Wilson's academic career flourished, and he er, and he wrote to his father less and less. +So of er, resulted in a rather er, sad feeling in his father, the thought that actually his son was starting you started to by his son. +argues that er, Wilson suffered from strokes throughout his life,not even emotionally recorded due his psychological condition. +The reason why this occurred er erm, the reason why this occurred was not due to some sort of er, due to emotional problems that he suffered within these repressed relations with his son. +Erm, and also the reason why Wilson could not actually read until the age of eleven was not due to the emotional er, problems of his father, it was due to a sort of a form of dyslexic er,th there's a hell of a lot of debate about this, er, all these things just what er, Einstein is er, criticizing. +But er,sad sadly there's er, evidence that sh show that if there is a dyslexic. +Erm, however, it maintains that er, Freud could not have er, known about this, although it seems to invalidate if they are correct . +Erm, if the move on the was psychoanalytic issue, er despite the book being generally regarded as an embarrassment to psychoanalytic, is somewhat non . +It er, has initiated others to demonstrate how the use of a psychoanalytic science for the actions of upstanding, public, historical figures. +Biographical studies can be found on a variety of historical people, including various artists or politicians. +But this simply underlines a point that psychoanalysis is, by the very nature biographical, thus historical point, er, historical methods to trace one's actions and reports in the presents, present er, relation to those who they've experienced in the past. +If your psychoanalysis is reports, and not just the actions, of it can be a, used as arguments to er, allow this story to emphasise what the human ages evolved at specific suicide of men, erm, goes on to show examples of his erm, he actually claimed to have used this as a sort of process of identification of even fantasizing, in order to try and er demonstrate how er, I think it was Hadrian's Wall was built, try to identify with engineers and architects who built Hadrian's Wall, in order to try and work out what the actual function of the wall was. +It wasn't, it wasn't regarded, it was regarded by a positivistic er,as just being er a big wall to stop barbarians er, attacking . +People have said he er, they seem to think, that he was more, he was more the sort of territorially divide sheriff sort of er, league of division between er, the two lands, and he was also a sort of lookout post. +Erm, this er, again, try to be right be er try to understand the mind,instead of just, just looking at the harsh facts, the hard cold facts and trying from there. +So, in effect, there's a subjective animal which can be very useful when trying to explain a glimpse, for example, employed for example the total I E prime and er, also in the psychological . +These books also extend beyond a biographical compass of the history, by examining the development of insecurities in society, like as in the future of civilian. +And also the relationship between the leaders and the masses in history, er, between the different groups er and then comparing the relations between these masses and different groups and different parts of history. +Er, and it can be also er, also er, course in civilizations in history and trace in theory selection in society. +Er, psychoanalysis is important, because it acts as a realis as a realistic er, dimension to historical analysis. +There is a tendency to try and lo er, continually adjust the plain hard facts, without recognizing that they are, they are in fact socially constructed. +That's the objective. +It must be supplemented with the subject. +For allowing ourselves to look at the report and find the actions, and not just the actions themselves. +Erm, so in this, so in times of the Woodrow Wilson or perhaps Freud er, took the subject too, too far. +Allow his own feelings and thoughts just to run away with him, which later er, in rather er, a nasty very er, made some very disparaging remarks of the family. +But despite the er, rather individualistic nature of the context used there's enough flexibility and openness within the subject content, to say . +The psychoanalysis can be used to a limited extent, despite more collective, historical roles er, within disagreed over conflicts in people, or perhaps you say that all the time. +Erm, going back to the subjective erm, psychoanalysis introduces erm, no, that's the subject erm, psychoanalysis introduces. +Also historians themselves, historians themselves can't actually completely stand outside the events they are actually studying. +I mean,th th they're just moving away from the issue, because it it's using a psychoanalytic stories. +Try to give a psychoanaly psychoanalytic study issue. +Erm, can you keep with me? +The er, the very important experiences of this story were never to be received into his work. +Or our work. +And would be useless the er, content and electrons. +I suppose er, suppose that, suppose that er, main department store other contents from other dimensions. +Psychological content, but again, in that content, in that er, particular content, psychoanalytical context can be useful. +Well done,w well done , excellent, I mean. +Although as I said, it was perhaps a mistake, erm, both classes produced excellent papers, that th it was a first class paper, in the other class and so was yours. +didn't read the book. +Where did you get all that material from then? +Erm, books on psycho history publish yours. +Right,. +Oh, you went through all the psycho history books? +Yeah, well done. +Erm, well it's a great achievement. +I think that given that you were er, you couldn't find the basic book that you were expected to read, I thought you, you gave an excellent account of it, I mean, if you hadn't told us that you hadn't got the book, I don't think we would have guessed, would we? +You would've got away with that one. +But erm, no, absolutely first rate. +Well done. +I think you can, you can really erm, you can really be proud of yourself on that. +And erm well, what do other people think, I mean what, I suppose no one else began to look at it either. +I will be giving a lecture on it, so I'll have my say about it. +Erm, has anybody looked at any of the other books, like for example, the one on ? +Did you? +I didn't have time. +Has anybody got the time? +I'll tell you the reason why I did this. +Erm, in a way this was a bit provocative. +What I what I thought was, well let's have erm, Woodrow Wilson, okay, as you said at the beginning of the book, Freud admits that he didn't like Wilson, and that he felt betrayed by Wilson, like a lot of people in Central Europe did I suppose, because you know, Wilson came over erm, with fourteen points as the saviour of the world, and went away leaving with a piece of . +And Freud and a lot of other German speaking people, thought that he had let them down, because he didn't have the political goodness. +Erm, and so Freud at the beginning says that he er, he, he had a personal dislike of er Wilson, and resented him for what he had done and held him responsible for the subsequent disasters. +So, so Freud makes no bones about it. +Erm, the book by Leo who's er Labour, was a Labour M P, no longer er keen collection reports. +Erm, on , I put in because it was the worst example I could find of the abuse of psychoanalysis for destroying somebody's personality, personality assassination by, by er a psychoanalysis. +You could imagine what it's like. +I mean, erm, if you didn't know it was meant to be serious, you might think it was a great send off of psychoanalysis, you know. +Kind of make you hoot with laughter half the time, erm, and the contrast with that is the point, which I don't know whether any of you has looked at, of course, called Gandhi's Truth. +Well, as you might tell from the title, Gandhi's Truth is the exact opposite to book, because it idealizes Gandhi, it makes a, a kind of psychoanalytic behaviourography, you know as if Gandhi was some er, great great kind of saint. +Despite the fact that Gandhi one would have thought provided rich material for psychoanalysts, like going to bed with his erm, nieces and his lady doctor erm, and naked and claiming that this was a specific exercise, erm. +Nice work if you can get it. +Erm, and so on, so, so, so this was the, this was the, er this is what I was trying to do, try and contrast the use of psychoanalysis in, in biography, from character assassination on one hand, to hagiography at the other, and with Freud's Woodrow Wilson somewhere in, in between , but perhaps nearer the character assassination end, because erm, neither of them, er neither of the authors were, really had, had much of a brief of Woodrow Wilson. +And, and really it was just as experiment, and erm, the reason I put it in was, I thought, well, you know, this is, this is an ignored book, and as you, as you found to your cost, it's actually hard to come by, harder to come by than I expected. +It's out of print. +Yeah, it's out of print, and erm, but I though it raised interesting issues, anyway. +I mean did other people think that? +And what kind of issues did you think it does raise? +It's not worth psychoanalysis +Right, now as mentioned, there's a whole literature on this course,ps psycho-history, isn't there? +They've even got their own journal. +Have you, have you read any of this stuff,? +Erm, this is, this is what this school of thought tries to do. +In the past I used to have a, a class on psycho- history, and I dropped it, and one of the reasons why I dropped it was, the lit a lot of the literary was very poor quality, for a start, and erm, people, er, students, er got that too, and I couldn't really blame them. +And, er, the other problem with it is, you really have to know quite a lot about history, or biography to really to really get into. +I think you found that with Wilson +There was one chapter in the book, I read it in the . +All the pages in biography . +Five or six pages instant analysis and it hardly +No. +Absolutely, so +Two novels +If yo I hope you, I suppose you could have a whole course in psycho-history, if you really put into it enough, but for just one class, I thought it was too much to ask students to attend, to try and have to get into psycho-history, so I haven't erm, done very much of it, and this, my excuse here really was, well Freud did write a book called Woodrow Wilson. +It is touching on the social sciences in the sense that Woodrow Wilson was an important political figure, and there is an historical dimension. +So that was my excuse, for, for, for bringing it in. +But as says, I mean it raises er, a fundamental issue, which is, is psychoanalysis or, psycho, are psycho insights applicable to for example history or biology, and this is the issue, isn't it? +What do people think that? +Is it just, is it, is it, is it just trivializing, to think, to talk about, for example, Woodrow Wilson's childhood? +I mean, does anybody think that's a trivial approach to history? +I mean +Do you think so? +Yeah. +Do everybody agree with that? +you tell it +Yes, of course, erm the point has to be made, that Bullett, unlike contemporary erm, biographers of er Wilson, those people you mentioned, actually knew Wilson, and an you know, being his administration on that man as it were , and apparently Bullett had a lot a first-hand erm, biographical data, didn't he, according to the book? +Also tended towards to make a judgment of him, +Mm. +I think +Right. +Right, and the background to that of course is, for those of you who may not know, Bullett was I suppose a more junior person in the State Department, when he went to Europe with Woodrow Wilson in nineteen eighteen, and nineteen whenever it was for a peace conference, and Bullett was the only one of the American delegation who resigned and confronted Wilson and said, look, you've gone back on the fourteen points, you're not doing what you said you would do. +How can you go on with this, and Bullett was the only one of them who resigned and went home. +And er, later of course, he became the American Ambassador of Vienna, so Freud met him, but so, so, Bullett had a personal stake in this, but I must admit, er my own view was, was rather to admire Bullett for his stand, because it's a rare politician who stands up and says look, you know, we've been there, having made promises, we've broken all of them, and we ought to resign, or you ought to resign. +He told Wilson. +And, and he said, you know, if you aren't going to resign, I certainly am. +And he did. +So erm, it's quite true that Bullett had a personal axe to grind, I think it was a rather justified axe. +But erm, it er, that fact remains, he did nail Wilson. +He was at the conference, and a lot of the book, if you read the book, is concerned with what actually happened at the conference, and basically, the basic problem with the, the book tries to look at, and this is where we, we get back to question of the childhood days. +Why couldn't Wilson stand up to the allies, why couldn't had stand up to Clements or Lloyd George, in particular? +They seem to have bullied him and made him er, make concessions, and the question that Freud and Bullett constantly ask is, why did Wilson make these concessions, especially since his position was already defined before he came to Europe, you know he already laid down the fourteen points, and sold it to the American people. +And then he came to Europe and, and really, let it all go. +And their answer of course is, look, here was erm, there's no political or historical reason, because Wilson had all the cards in his hand. +The, admittedly the French and the British were on the right side, they won the war, but France er was er battered in the war, lost an awful lot of people, it's a common and although this country, although, you know, fighting in Britain, the er, British economy was also badly damaged. +We were borrowing money from the Americans to keep going, and er, we certainly weren't in any shape to dictate the terms of the peace to the Americans. +And er, so Freud and Bullett say, look if Wilson had all the power at the time, and some ways the world in nineteen eighty to twenty was a bit like what it is today, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, really, you really only got one superpower. +If, if the Americans had all the power, why did Woodrow Wilson just sell out to the Allies? +So, Bullett and Freud conclude, well, it has to be something to do with him personally. +And their conclusion is, he couldn't stand up to, to Lloyd George in and the reason was these were strong, erm, male leaders, and Wilson, when it came to being with men, er, was weak, and the question asked is, why was he weak in dealing with men? +And the answer is, well, if you look at his relationship with his father, er, he was very overawed by his father, he was very passive and submissive towards his father. +And so there they, they claim that his childhood was relevant, because of this character defect in, in Wilson, his inability to stand up to strong men. +Even though objectively, he had all the strength on his side, and if he'd only stubbornly insisted, the allies would have had to accept the fourteen points, because there was no way that they just didn't have any erm, any clout really when when finally settled in peace. +Wilson could almost have dictated it to them, and perhaps another man would have. +So this is their justification for bringing in the childhood. +What do you think of that remark? +Is that legitimate, do you think, or not? +Yeah, I think it is. erm you have, when you see the statesmen +Well, what about the view, let me kind of play devil's advocate here against Freud and Bullett. +What about the view? +That in history, the important things of economic, er historical, social forces which transcend any individual. +What about that view, that the individual person, even a powerful one, like the President of the United States, doesn't really count, compared with economic social geo-political forces, what about that argument?, how does that . +Is that the kind of argument that carries any weight with you? +Erm, I can tell you what the other to look at the personality things like that +Right, right. +It seems, you know, because Freud didn't actually analyze just to make a generalization about things he knew about some of the people. +Yes. +And that sort of thing counts for what +Yes, that's that's, let me see who that is? +Hi. +Well, that's his office there. +He's not there now. +I don't know. +Have a word with his secretary. +Erm, the, yes, I mean, this is a big problem, isn't it? +The question is, as you rightly say, in psychoanalysis, the analyst usually has a vast amount much more than people normally realize, I mean, I recall from my own analysis, and mean I was going between two and four times a week erm, for an hour each time and it was a good six months before she would make any interpretations, and I used to get very frustrated, you know, I used to say things like, well, what do you think of this, Miss , you know. +What do you think of that, and she would say, well, it's too early, or we don't know yet. +You know, and she would constantly say that, and before six months, there weren't any interpretations at all. +Then when interpretations did come, particularly if I disputed them, then it would be, she would be ready with the information. +She would say, there, there's the of that dream, or those associations, with this you did. +There was all that, and so on, and she would be ready with it, and there was a lot of material there. +The problem, as you rightly say, with this kind of secondhand announcers, that how do you know if you've got enough material, and that it's right? +Also, if you actually read the book, there is quite a lot of material in the book, it's quite a big book in some ways, and er, the material on Wilson's childhood and so on, erm, is pretty detailed. +I mean there is quite a lot seems to be known about Wilson, and he himself, erm, wrote a lot in enormous correspondence and so on, and many of the points they make, are erm, are fairly well validated. +Why, for example, one of the, the points that Freud's book makes, is er when Wilson was confronted with a conflict, particularly with a stronger male, like an elder brother, or his father, he would retreat into speech making, and apparently he used to have a barn where he did it, and he used to go and give speeches in the barn. +He used to speak to the hay, as it were, and he would do this, er, rather compulsively. +This kind of speech making. +And of course, when he was a man, he was famous for his speeches, apparently, he was a great, was a great waffler, you know, it was the age of wafflers, I suppose. +Erm, we heard a great, he was a great erm,refratition So when Freud and Bullett say, look, Woodrow Wilson was a great refratition and you can see him doing this in his childhood. +There is actual evidence that he did do it in his childhood, and th so they're not erm, they're kind of building everything on a single sentence like Leo does, you know, amazingly enough, Leo 's book starts with entry of Who's Who in a single phrase, where she calls herself daughter of, her father. +Doesn't mention her mother, and Leo 's whole thesis about was built on this single phrase in Who's Who. +words, some future researched, that the printer here, missed that bit, you know, she should have said, and her mother's name, but her mother's got missed out on the proofs or something, I don't, this is the kind of thing that happens, of course. +Leo 's entire book will collapse, er, as, as, as perhaps it should. +Being a writer of course, being the data problem, er, this is a big problem in psychoanalysis, because whereas erm, in an analysis, the analyst has er hundreds or probably thousands of hours' data from the pre-associations of the patient, at the end. +The er, that kind of thing is never published, and or even, of course, it can't be published normally, and the result is that when analysts draw conclusions based on this very confidential data, or who were talking vastly extent. +It, it's very very difficult to, to validate perhaps erm, publicly. +Yeah. +making explanations the other way round. +They are +theory that you made a mistake, and you've got to somehow explain that +They are +They are, they're starting with the end result, and of course in this particular book, they're, what they're starting with really, wasn't a general psychological biography of Wilson, so much has, the problem, why did Wilson give everything away in the conference? +That . +They work backwards as, as, as you rightly say. +The, the, the best defence you could make of that, if you wanted to make a defence of it, would be that in the nineteen twenties and thirties as we've been seeing in the lectures, I'll be saying a bit more about that some psychoanalyse was, was developing. +It's analysis of the egos as, as we've been seeing, in analysis was really all, all it could do at the beginning, after the First World War, shall we say. +breaking point. +After the First World War, ego analysis was developing. +Now one of the consequences that ego analysis was, analysts began to feel confident that they could analyze the defences of the ego, as well as what the ego repressed as a result of its defences. +As a result of that, you could examine a defensive structure, and work out why it existed. +For example, supposing you erm, this, this, this was used principally in child analysis, which didn't exist before the First World War, it was developed afterwards. +The problem with child analysis is, children won't be associated, that can be made to free associate. +I mean, don't ask me to explain it's technical and so it's a very technical matter of ego psychology that you must accept . +They can't be induced to do it. +And anyway, they don't have the motives. +Children are always for analysis, usually by their parents, they don't usually come of their . +So the analysts found they couldn't use free association with children. +What they could use, was defence analysis. +So for example, if you saw a child, who was pathologically independent, wouldn't form emotional attachments or dependencies on other people of the way the child wanted it. +The analyst might conclude, well why is this defence structure excessive independence present in this child? +A good suggestion might be, in the past this child has suffered a loss of some figure it was dependent on, and has compensated by becoming highly independent. +This was a common finding, and Freud often found this in all children during the war. +Some of them compensated by becoming highly independent in the end. +So what you could do, you could see the defence, and then from that you could work backwards, to the motive of the defence. +So, perhaps the reason is the loss of a love object, and then of course if you found there was a in fact a loss of a love, love object, then you might to see in greater detail, how this whole thing came about. +Particularly if you discover that that child didn't have a bad characteristic in their in their ego before this event occurred, and so on. +So that kind of thing made analysts think that they could go on more than just free associations, they could look at a person's character, as it were. +The structure of ego defences, and then draw conclusions. +And really, you see, that's what Freud and Bullett are doing in this book. +They're looking at Wilson's character, which was quite a, a peculiar one, in both senses of the word, and not just peculiar in the sense of, of, you obviously need to him a peculiar sense of kind of funny, funny peculiar. +And they try to work backwards, as you rightly say, to his childhood, to explain why, and, and of course they felt that their explanation, explained the favour of conflicts, because the whole thing was here was a man with an almighty father. +Who saw himself as Jesus, really, and although Jesus came to save the world, he saved the world in a rather masochistic manner, by getting crucified. +Well, that's exactly what happened to Woodrow Wilson. +He came to save the world in nineteen eighteen, but he got crucified by Clements or Lloyd George. +They made mincemeat of fourteen points. +And er, so it's, it's an attempt to work backwards, but it has a certain justification in analytic technique. +But of course, as you and er, er er, rightly said, in an analysis you would always be able to confirm these interpretations from the patient, because in the end, of course , psychoanalysis is done by the patient, the analyst doesn't do it. +The analyst normally just helps. +In the end, the analysis is gonna occur, it's the patient who, who really doesn't analyze their ego comes to grips with the unconscious. +Of course, in a book you can't handle them, and you can't handle them when the subject is dead. +So that will, corroborating dimension of psychoanalysis, what the patient does for himself and cannot possibly count, and as you rightly say, this leaves analytic biography erm, in a, in a kind of limbo. +Which is, I really do unsatisfactory. +And er, one has to admit, when you look at the literature of like, you know Gandhi, and and this kind of thing, and a lot of it's psycho-history stuff. +Erm, you can't help feeling that there has been a mistake. +Is that your impression of this? +No one does that, yes, that's erm +Well, what, why do you think +Why? +Erm,just having different it's different than what +Yeah. +it's different than what people normally think +Yes, it's interesting you see, if you, if you can compare Freud with other writers who are in the same kind of area and league like . +Why do people put up with anything from . +Er, we know that systematically seduced a lot of his female patients. +He forced his wife to put up with having his mistress living in the house with them. +Unfortunate woman erm, er, he as long as they were winning the war, was, was open in his admiration of Hitler and the Nazis. +His none of this is ever mentioned about , you know, mention to anybody, and there's er, you know, er, you know, he's one of the good guys. +But er, if Freud had done any of that, you'd never hear the end of it. +Freud, Nazi lover, you know, Freud, seducer, all this kind of stuff. +People would go on about. +Erm, and yet erm people like could get away with it. +Er, you know, great ethologist, local supporter of the Nazis before World War Two. +All forgotten afterwards. +Somehow is an okay man. +Okay total crap about the aggression of something, a book on aggression. +Totally wrong. +Nobody animal er behaviour accepts that, that, that nonsense any more. +Yeah, you know is okay, he's an okay name. +But erm, Sigmund Freud as you rightly say, a moment there's anything you can see wrong if , certainly happens to Darwin. +You can have hardly few weeks or months go by when you see some, you know er, latest lunatic disproof of Darwin, you know, appears in the press. +Everyone says, oh I know Darwin was wrong. +It's almost always crap. +The latest book was total crap. +I mean it really was. +It should never got any, any attention in the press, yet there was all bits in the Sunday Times, Darwin disproved. +The reason could be, of course, as you say, that, that people like Darwin and Freud have made really important discoveries and that's why nobody can leave them alone. +,,basically crappy people, crappy people. +And do you know, so what, so what, you just forget about that. +There've been plenty of people like that, all down history, and plenty of them psychologists,who've had lunatic and silly ideas that everyone's forgotten about. +But +take the time just to study +Oh, surely +That, that, that's one of the big, that's one of the big problems. +It could be of course, that we're too near to them, because if you think about it, this has happened to most great pioneers in, in science, they were, for the first erm, certainly for the first century, there's often a tremendous er, rejection. +I mean take erm, people like Copernicus, er, Galileo and Newton. +If, if you look at their work, for about the first hundred years after all of them, their work was widely, er, disparaged and rejected. +Then after about a hundred years, suddenly people seemed to change their, to change their minds about it. +Of course, the hundred years is only just up for Darwin and not yet up for Freud, depending on when you start the hundred years it makes a . +Erm, the er, there seems to be kind of latency period when great, innovations in human thought are followed by considerable turbulence and upset, and the figure responsible becomes a kind of er, you know bogey person, that, that, that, that people get, get perhaps that's certainly true of Darwin, though I think it's abating now. +But er, it was certainly true of er,even be true of people like Einstein, you know, the tremendous anti-Einstein ruled particularly in Germany which denounced it. +It was Jewish and so on, and because Einstein was Jewish and therefore he had to be more Jewish science and erm there was a book published called fifty against Einstein. +Einstein's comment was, one would have been enough and as usual of course, Einstein was right. +One would have been enough, if they had any good arguments or data which er they didn't have. +I erm, I suppose this is, this is a phenomenon of human history. +The trouble with Woodrow Wilson, of course, is if you want to get some, get Freud, well, this book is very handy, because as you've seen, it does solve all your problems. +My guess is that in about twenty or thirty years' time, it would be reprinted and people would start to re-think, oh well, perhaps this is not so +True. +But, but in writing historical erm, analysis and, and biography, presumably people, I mean, people can't help er writing, writing history, and trying to answer questions, like, why did Woodrow Wilson erm, not the fourteen points through, and presumably, one possible explanation is the kind of Freud Bullett approach, and presumably if you can find erm, relevant data and if you convince, and if you can convince that that's plausible, it's a legitimate thing to attempt to do. +We are not saying, that necessarily it's the right thing to do, but it seems to me people are going to do it anyway, aren't they. +People are anyway going to try and look for,lo look for explanations, and it may be that, you know, in fifty or a hundred years' time, peoples insight into, into Freud's findings are different. +And this is my personal view, as you know I think that people see, er, Freud completely differently in fifty or a hundred years' time. +Possibly because Freud himself, you now, was misunderstood. +To such a large extent some of the things were misunderstood that he discovered. +And when people see psychoanalysis in a different content, then they might look back to things Freud and Bullett studies, and say, well, perhaps it wasn't so amusing after all. +Erm, the sorry one thing I was going say before we finish, because is our only American here, and since Woodrow Wilson was a great American. +What's the, what kind of impression have you got from, er you know, from your education and, and er and trying to, focus at home about Woodrow Wilson? +How does he seem today, by America? +Does he, is he regarded as a great figure, or +Mm. +Erm, he is erm regarded as in terms of erm,he tried so hard and just +Mm. +Yeah, +Right, be with you in a sec. +Yeah. +Yes +Yep. +That's right. +That must be the, that must be the consensus +Yeah +Because I asked in the other classes, three or four American students, and I asked them the same question. +It's very +And they gave the same answer +The history erm, you know America,history of very interesting and erm, +Oh, really, oh are you? +Er +Between the wars, and you didn't know this that erm loads of the history that I read here in Britain very different from the history +Yeah. +So they, so do you think there's a tendency for Americans still to kind of idealize Wilson, but for Europeans to be a bit more cynical. +Well, I think not that they're afraid not to be but +Well, I think they have a lot to do, quite a lot to do with it. +obviously, that erm, I just think that I don't know, it, it's very different from . +Mm. +Whereas God is not always really always the truth reality +Mm. +Yes. +this is history that you really believe it. +Sure. +Yes. +But, at the same time, you should go some place else +To get a different view +To get a different view, and yet I it's been very interesting it's been very interesting +you know what I mean, you know, always. +I nearly cost her a and she don't know. +That's true, that's true, yes, sure, yes, yes +Not fair. +It's on a personal level +Yeah, yeah. +Well, it, it's just coming up to three, er, well done. +Congratulations and apologies. +As I said I won't do this next year. +Not unless the book comes out again. +Can I remind who isn't here. +Right, if you see tell her +Yes,. +Now if you see tell her how much we missed her. +Er, next week we're gonna miss her even more, because she's supposed to be doing the paper. +As we'll see another if this was a black book of Freud's, and in some ways you would say this was one of the blackest. +The other blackest, other blackest book is on next week, when we shall see Freud, erm psychoanalysing not Woodrow Wilson, but Moses. +So don't miss it folks. +And certainly, make sure doesn't. +Thanks. +Erm,I've managed to write an essay or two, would you + +Colleagues just before we er commence with today's business, one or two announcements to make. +The first one is that I, I've received a number of complaints about colleagues smoking in the, in conference. +Are you taking that line because you're in favour or opposed to it ? +Anyway, it's not a matter for us I know, that er depending on where you sit in conference you can have difficulty seeing the no smoking signs, but I've every confidence you're gonna take my word for this. +Normally, normally, when it's switched on there's a sign up there. +It's not switched on yet, so can somebody switch it on. +And equally colleagues there is also, it's true believe me, and normally there's another one up there, a no smoking sign so please be restrained, if only to help me to get through the week with my voice which is usually very bad! +Er, the other thing is of course colleagues that the doors at the side are, are open for very good reasons and I mentioned yesterday from time to time that once we get er we get talking there's a that goes and colleagues at the side of Congress have a great deal of difficulty in hearing and listening to the debate. +So please if you feel the need that you need to speak to somebody, please go out of the Conference. +Discipline has been very good indeed so far. +Thanks very much. +Now just another couple of things colleagues. +You'll remember yesterday that we had the collection for the Crawley Strikers and that the General Secretary, rather, I was gonna say foolishly then, generously er said that we would double whatever was collected. +Of course after he made that statement he didn't realize that the London Region were gonna put a thousand pound in the bucket! +Yes but such is the life of mice and men. +Anyway, the collection realized six hundred and thirteen pound, plus the thousand from London. +That came to six hundred, sixteen hundred and thirteen and that will be doubled by the C E C. Thank you very much. +Colleagues I've had a message from the strikers at Crawley and they've had to return. +They want to place on record the generous support that they've had from you and for the , yes in a moment, the seconder of the emergency motion for er moving her support. +They've been out a long time colleagues, seventeen weeks. +I spoke to them yesterday afternoon after we broke. +They appeared to me to be as committed as ever to winning that particular dispute and I'm sure you would wish to send your further best wishes to them colleagues. +One other matter before I ask the General Secretary I think our colleague might want to say something after the General Secretary. +Erm colleagues who attended the Blackpool Conference last year will recall that there was, that we had a visit from a young boy called who was the son of one of our officers and that er was suffering from I think I recall a very severe form of leukaemia. +I know that some colleagues are aware of this but sadly recently passed away and I must by the colleagues in the Midland and East Coast region er to thank everybody who put into the er the collection on behalf of the . +Very sad colleagues, but thank you very much indeed for that. +Can I now ask the General Secretary to say a few words. +Well just colleagues about the Burnsall dispute erm er clearly and I'm just anticipating the views of Congress that since we adopted a particularly way of making up the er Dispute Fund, I think we should certainly adopt exactly the same practice in relation +The point of information President Mel Lancashire Region President, Conference. +I see on the agenda this morning that an invitation has been extended for to come along and speak to us. +Can the General Secretary give this Conference assurances that a speaker from Timex can come along and address this Conference before the end of closing. +Thank you. +Yes colleagues, what I will do is this, erm no one will be in this Congress for the last three days without knowing the strong feelings on the Timex issue. +I refer to it in my speech and many others have referred to the terrible situation at Timex. +If there is an approach for the Timex workers to come through the proper channels, I will recommend on behalf of the Executive for the Standing Orders Committee that we hear a Timex worker before the end of the Conference. +If the Timex worker wants to regard that as a right of reply to Neil 's speech, so be it. +Right colleagues, er on with the business. +Can I announce that the C E C has informed me that motion eighty four Lancashire Region due for debate on Wednesday afternoon has been withdrawn. +Motion eighty four has been withdrawn. +I'll now turn colleagues to the Section Secretary's Report Mick Apex Partnership, pages twenty nine to thirty four. +Mick. +Thank you President. +Good Morning Congress. +Mick National Office. +I can just remember in the so-called heady days of the early nineteen eighties the then Prime Minister saying that you would make Britain a great trading and a great economic nation once again. +But she also said it'd be a nation which did not need a manufacturing industry, nor an industrial base. +The Britain of the nineteen nineties and beyond, according to her, would be based on a service sector. +Thousands of jobs created, foreign investment would be forthcoming and what happened? +The mines, the steelworks, the shipyards, all killed off and with them communities killed off. +But all would be okay, according to Thatcher. +New jobs would be created in the service sector. +In retail, in finance in recreation and in leisure. +Yes, many jobs were created. +Part time jobs, low paid jobs, temporary contract jobs, non-unionized jobs. +But all the gains that we had made out of labour movement, improvements in working time, improvements in health and safety, equality issues, legal rights all went out of the window, and what has happened to the vast majority of those service jobs? +They've gone. +The same way as the steel workers, the coal miners and the skilled crafts people. +Gone and never to return unless we have a government elected which is committed to education, to training, to investment and to the future. +It's obscene, in the nineteen nineties at a time of three million plus unemployed that we've still have a skill shortage in this country. +We all know that Britain will only become a world class economy if we have a strong well-balanced manufacturing base, employing skilled, trained workforce, a workforce which has decent conditions of employment and has legal protection, but we do still have some members within the service sector and within the professional rank and what has happened in the last five or six years to those members? +They've seen the introduction of new macho management techniques. +They've seen the introduction of performance related pay, personal contracts, new working practices, pay freezes, pay cuts and always the fear of redundancy and all of this has been going on at a time when increasingly companies are withdrawing from national collective agreements, are establishing separate bargaining arrangements, restricting the activities of trade union officials and increasingly de-recognizing trade unions. +Increasingly we see longstanding and well used recognition of procedure agreements torn up. +We've seen new and harsher disciplinary procedures introduced, safety measures ignored and regrettably increases in the number of cases of racial and sexual harassment. +We need to ensure that our white collar members have the help and the support and the advice available to them, but that help and that advice needs to be at the right time and at the right place. +As more and more decisions are being taken by management at local level, we need to ensure our local representatives have the necessary skills to cope with the new macho management techniques. +We need to ensure that our representatives are trained in human resource management, how to combat human resource management. +We need to offer advice on performance- related pay, on health and safety issues, on environmental issues. +It's been particularly bleak for many workers. +Many white collar workers thought they were immune to the recession, but Congress there are thousands of white collar professional, technical workers out there who need a trade union. +A professional trade union with the new knowledge, the skills and the services appropriate to their needs. +That is the effective partnership. +I commend my report. +Twenty nine. +Yes. +Anybody else who's coming up between twenty nine and thirty four, if you could come down to the rostrum colleagues. +Well that's me morning jog! +Morning Conference, you all awake? +Hope you enjoyed yourselves last night. +Conference, thank you Mick, Apex is going places, there's no doubt about that. +I heard what er John had to say yesterday about the Apex membership must accept the conditions of the merger. +Well we fully accept that John and the reason I get up here under Mick's report is under the item number two Apex Partnership National Conference. +I tell you why I get up, I get up because I came back from that conference. +It was a bit of a disaster in some respects, but in other respects it was a lively vibrant conference. +Membership expressing real views, real concerns and John if you listen very carefully, it was also about wanting to see a delivery of the promises that were made about the merger. +That's what it was about. +But there was a brave paper presented to Apex conference, a paper on sectionalization. +That conference discussed it, discussed it in great detail. +They put a lot of effort into it, but I tell you what, if I read Access, I would never have believed I was at the same conference. +There wasn't a single word mentioned about that particular paper and the very fact that that conference rejected it, because they failed to consult properly with those who were involved in that section and they were very unhappy about the way Apex was being fragmented. +I was very disappointed that there's no comment in here at all. +Let's be honest, I didn't wanna see good sections, I wanna see strong sections, I wanna see vibrant sections, but I also want to see the truth in those documents when it comes back afterwards, so I'm disappointed on this issue and er I hope something in future will be done about to report the real things that we discussed at conference as well. +Thank you Conference. +Bill London Region. +Mick, we took a decision at erm Apex Conference two years ago erm whereby we decided that er anywhere where we had G M B members we would attempt to ensure that we have recognition with the private security firms used. +Here we are at er Portsmouth G M B Congress, we've got, we're using that, well the Guildhall are using erm out front. +I'd just been talking to the guard, twelve hour shifts, sixty hours a week and he can't even have any time off for tea breaks or meal breaks. +Erm can we look into that? +I do know that we've been trying to get er recognition for about fifteen years with that company but can we pursue that issue? +Erm, on page thirty you talk about the erm Employer's Federation in the er minimum terms and conditions, well I'm only hoping that my own firm Securicor don't have any er input into that, because er as you know they unilaterally reduced all the terms and conditions Securicor guarding and cleaning recently erm I'd like to know when we intend meeting with Securicor Cleaner I do know you've written to them on a number of occasions and their refusal to meet with us. +I also know that you're attempting to get a Memorandum of Agreement and a Recognition Agreement with them. +Erm, I'd like to know an update if possible on the Branch Secretary's erm restructuring. +I know that we're meeting with the company next week, but whether or not anything's come forward on that and also erm in reference to the pensions section, erm, just correct your deliberate mistake and part timers can't enter the Securicor Pension Scheme. +Page thirty, thirty one, thirty two. +Yes. +Ron Securicor Yorkshire Region. +Er page thirty two about er the Guarding Company. +I mean I don't want anybody to get the wrong idea what it says we've resolved eighty percent of the outstanding grievances. +I mean these people have had a pay freeze since November nineteen ninety and these grievances were as a result of a new pay structure last year that actually worsened the terms and conditions since nineteen ninety, but till then we've been making steady progress in getting better improvements and we've gone backwards. +Securicor have joined the cowboys on the contract guarding and really I mean you must be getting sick of us getting up every time about security guards, but it's an important problem and you must know that a lot of you must work at places where you've got guards on the gate and we all should take a bit of interest in going to see these guards, find out that they're working for two pound or two pound forty an hour, they're working as many hours a week as they'll actually work with no overtime rate, no night rate, no benefits worth having and I mean really I wish you'd go to your companies and try and arrange site allowances, cos that's the only way we'll get any improvements, but when we talk about resolving grievances, we just took in Yorkshire region someone to a tribunal for constructive dismissal. +Well the judgment's deserved on that but we're hoping we're gonna win it and we're hoping that that is a beneficial thing to the other guards, but I wouldn't put any money on it. +The final thing is that a review of paying conditions will take place in May nineteen ninety three. +We've actually had a Delegates Conference in April and we meet the company in July and I don't expect any sold the bread waiting for a massive increase in pay. +Thanks Conference. +Thank you very much +thirty three and thirty four. +Mick. +Thank you President. +With response to Kevin, yes the National Committee Paper on the future structure and organization of the Apex Partnership was rejected by the Conference. +There was a full and detailed report put by the Central Executive Committee on that point and, as you are well aware, there are motions for debate this morning in respect of er that particular point. +The from London Region, yes Shorrocks is a cowboy outfit. +We've been retrying to get recognition nationally and locally for fifteen years. +Yeah, lousy pay, lousy hours, lousy conditions. +Yet another example of why we need regulation and licensing within the industry. +Unfortunately at long last we are making some progress along that line. +Bill also makes the comment about Securicor. +Yeah, you're dead right Bill. +Securicor were at one time synonymous with quality for they have paid to be synonymous with quality. +They tried to take the cowboys on at their own game. +A world leader with the security industry is actually going down to the levels of the one man and a dog outfit. +We're meeting in July on the pay and as Ron and Bill know we are seeking full restoration of the losses in respect of base rates, working time and premium payments. +The then secretaries, yes negotiations are ongoing in respect of the company's proposals on restructuring. +All the then secretaries have been kept fully involved in those negotiations. +The Regional Secretaries have been advised of the position and regularly updated on the position. +I'd made a commitment to the Branch Secretaries and to the Representatives that there will be a full Representatives Conference of which those proposals will be debated and discussed. +I accept the point Bill about the error in respect of pensions. +I think that covers the points President. +Thank you. +Thanks very much Mick +Colleagues I now propose to take motions one hundred and fifty eight Sectionalization, motion one hundred and sixty six the Apex Merger. +Er and then we'll ask for Mick to respond on behalf of the C E C because the C E C are opposing one five eight and accepting one six six with the qualification. +So first of all M=motion one five eight South Western Region to move. +Good morning Congress, President, visitors in the balcony. +Denise representing Bristol and District Staff Branch and the South West Region. +Could I firstly start by thanking those delegates who after Congress yesterday have expressed support about the two rule changes that we lost and to give some encouragement to new delegates here that even if you get up here and you lose it, there's some one hell of a lot of support out there on the floor. +Thank you. +Motion one five eight. +I note that the C E C is opposing this, but I feel that maybe they've missed the points and the branch should actually take some responsibility for this because the wording could be better, we concede that point. +The motion isn't actually asking for each individual member to be sent a questionnaire and to say where would you like to be because obviously that is totally ridiculous. +People who are in one particular workplace and that workplace makes up the branch, then it's clear from the sort of jobs that they do which section they should be in. +But if you're in a general branch such as I am, which is made up from people of all sorts of industries that have come together because none of us are large enough to have a branch within our own industry on our own, then which section do we go to? +It's not always necessarily obvious. +And who makes that decision where we should go? +Delegates in this room from Apex may recognize me as someone that used to get up and say I was representing Apex Public Service and Management Branch. +It might automatically be assumed that because that was the name of our branch, we should be in the public service section and that it why we've changed the name of the branch to Bristol and District Staff because we are an odds and sods branch. +We didn't want there to be any confusion so that people would automatically put us all into public services, because the majority of our members shouldn't be in that section. +Surely the best way for members needs to be attended to is for them to actually make the decisions on which section's relevant to them. +We're not talking about individual members saying I wanna go here or I wanna go there, we're talking about groups of memberships within these sorts of branches. +Surely the needs of the members should come before the administrative easiness of putting people into sections for the Union and as I've said who better to judge where they need to go and what their needs are than the members themselves. +Congress has already discussed the fact that we're very concerned about the drop in membership. +Providing a service to our members is absolutely paramount and we need to show them that we are considering their needs in which section we put them in. +As I've already said, we agree that the wording could have been better. +The C E C when they're talking about motions sometimes say that they accept them with the qualification and I'd like to say to Congress this morning will you accept a qualification from the branch moving this to say that we are talking about groups of members and their needs not individuals? +The members' case must come first, otherwise everyone is gonna be put into the odds and sods section which is Apex, because it hasn't got a subject such as public services or energy and utilities. +We want Apex as Kevin has already said to be a real section, not where everyone gets pushed because the name of their branch or there's nowhere else to put them. +I urge you to support this motion. +One five eight seconded. +One five eight seconded. +Formally seconded. +Thank you very much. +Motion one six six Apex Merger Liverpool Region. +Formally moved and you've formally seconded. +Thank you very much. +You did that twice Peter you can do that. +I call Mick to put the C E C point of view. +Thank you President. +Congress, the Central Executive asks you to, the Central Executive accepts motion one six six with a qualification. +However the C E C is asking you to vote against motion one five eight. +The qualification to motion one six six is that the C E C believe we should prepare a paper on relationship between Apex Partnership and all other sections of the Union, not just the public services section. +In other words we should examine the whole subject, not just one important part of it. +In respect of motion one five eight, the C E C is opposed because it is based upon a misunderstanding of the purposes of sectionalization. +This Union faces strong competition in almost every sector in which it organizes. +In order that we can respond, we must organize ourselves, industry and by sector. +That means making what might have to be some very difficult decisions affecting longstanding practices and even loyalties that have developed over many years. +We cannot leave it to the of individual members, that would produce chaos and could leave to destructive manoeuvring. +The membership of each section is clearly defined by rule. +The C E C and the Regional Committees have ample discretion to, to fine tune in certain areas. +So we are urging you to vote against one five eight and accept one six six with the qualification outlined. +I don't go anywhere without a fight Congress. +You've heard my explanation of the fact that it was poorly worded and I think that is a great shame. +I'll be talking later on in Congress about the fact that we could perhaps bring amendments and that would help the wording on things. +Please think of our membership, think of what their needs are. +Yes, we're in competition and we want to be able to say to our members don't go to that trade union because they will put you all in one lump, go to this one because we've got sections, because we look at our members with individual needs and please support this motion. +Thank you. +Colleagues I propose to take the vote one five eight as Mick's indication is being opposed by the C E C. All those in favour of one five eight against that's lost. +Motion one six six has been accepted. +All those in favour against that's carried. +Colleagues we're now going to the transport debate and there are five motions listed here. +Motion three one four London Region to move. +Composite eighteen G M B Scotland and London to second. +Motion three one six Birmingham Region to move. +Motion three one eight Midland Region to move. +Motion three one nine Midland Region to move again. +So colleagues if the moves of motion three one four er would come down and move their motion and with other colleagues if they would come down to the rostrum please it would save time. +President, Congress, Dave Southend Branch London Region moving motion three one four British Rail Privatization. +Congress, this country gave the world football, cricket and railways. +We are now in the second division of world football and world cricket. +The railways are now in division three and the government's plan is to take them into the non-league. +At the moment we have old and dirty trains which are expensive to use, with many rural towns without a railway at all through years and years of underfunding. +So what is this crazy useless government's answer, extra funding? +No. +Privatizing what is the first thing the government do to make B R more attractive to the private sector? +Announces a huge redundancy programme that will lead erm which will result in a lot more unstaffed stations and a hell of a lot less maintenance. +Now let's look at some facts that the lying Tories won't tell you. +Our rail network is the lowest funded, the lowest staffed and has the lowest investment programme in Europe with the poorest quality service and the fastest declining level of safety, but B R has the highest fares. +Since nineteen eighty three the government has reduced financial support by over two billion pound and reduced staff by seventy thousand, resulting in less maintenance and falling safety standards and with, as I said higher fares, but fewer services. +Now I ask you, do you think that a privatized network that has to pay a divided to investors will lead to a better, safer, cleaner, cheaper railway? +Of course not, in fact it will probably be the reverse with even higher fares, less if any off-peak services and maybe closures of unprofitable lines. +The government plan to help private operators by robbing the Railworkers' Pension Fund of millions of pounds to subsidize their operations for passenger and freight on a scale that B R have never ever known. +This has got to be immoral if not illegal! +It is obvious the way the railway should move forward not privatization but a reversal of the underfunding and a move to a total commitment of higher financial support. +If Richard Branson wants to run trains, let him build a network and, and compete against a properly funded British Rail. +Congress, the vote in the House of Commons was lost unfortunately, but our sponsored MPs must ensure that the opposition in the House of Lords fights this ridiculous legislation as vigorously as possible, and we must support our brothers and sisters in B R with their fight. +Congress I move. +Thank you. +Dave London Region seconding the motion on rail privatization. +Colleagues once again we see the Tories operating an example of what I call fag packet policies. +Policies driven not by realism or efficiency, but based on dogs simply on dogma. +They make them up as they go along. +It's very difficult to find any support at all for rail privatization outside a handful of ministers. +Even Tory MPs are against it and have to be whipped into line to get it through Parliament. +The effect of privatization will have a wide range of effects. +For the staff it will mean job losses as lines are cut and worse conditions as more and more work goes out to contract. +Today we learn of nine hundred job losses at what used to be B R E L in the engineering section. +For us the customers, it will mean higher fares and fewer services as unprofitable and social services are cut and this is only if we are left a train service at all. +I come from Norfolk and with privatization many rural lines will be cut as the private sector being as unattractive and unprofitable. +Transport organizations predict that only the three main lines to London will be left and only those with a peak service. +Services which provide trains for both rural villages and holidaymakers will be cut. +The lines under threat Ipswich to Yarmouth, Norwich Yarmouth, the North Norfolk Link, they may all go. +Train spotting in East Anglia will take on a whole new meaning. +Cuts have already begun to as the British Rail cow has fattened up. +In King's Lynn where I live the freight line to the docks has now been closed. +This has forced fifty thousand tons of coal traffic and ten thousand tons of toxic chemical traffic onto East Anglia's already congested roads. +Chemicals that in the Common Market are not allowed to travel by road, they're forced on to rail. +When the Minister of the Environment was contacted to help in putting pressure on B R, the Council were told why were they contacting him, it was not a matter that he was interested in. +The Department of Transport, they were very little help, we contacted them and after initial propaganda visits, we were told that sixty thousand tons of traffic wasn't worth bothering about it wasn't large enough to warrant any help or subsidy. +This is, this is the way it will go and will continue to go. +The people in rural areas train lines are, are an essential way to move around communities. +For many people without that they will simply be isolated in their own small communities. +Colleagues, I urge you to reject the dogma, look at the practical integrated policy and support the motion. +Composite eighteen Floods of Convenience G M B Scotland to move. +Mr Chairman, colleagues, David G M B Scotland Composite motion eighteen Floods of Convenience. +Colleagues, the Parliament of the European Community and of the United Kingdom have seriously considered the consequences of the spillage of eighty five thousand tons of oil from oil tanker which ran aground on the coast of the Shetland Islands on the fifth of January nineteen ninety three and for a considerable time socialists of the European Parliament have been complaining incessantly for greater safety at sea. +Although they have gained the support of the majority of MPs, but when the submission reached the Council of Ministers, they unfortunately find that their representations have been shelved. +Quite recently, the European Parliament have been calling for oil ships which do not meet E E C standards to be expelled from community waters. +Also ships carrying dangerous cargoes in sensitive waters, for example an area similar to where the went ashore or perhaps the Dover Straits where cargo collisions have been reduced by eighty percent since radar surveillance was introduced. +Colleagues, great credibility should go to John Prescott, Shadow Transport Secretary, who has demanded that all foreign registered tankers should provide details of routes when they set off from port so that all operators can be dealt with. +Not surprisingly however, John McGregor the Transport Secretary, although he did not oppose John Prescott's submissions, made it quite clear that this would be extremely expensive. +Colleagues action of this nature should not be measured in terms of money. +Only last week we saw a collision in the Channel at a real cost, eight seamen's lives. +Chair, colleagues, I ask Conference to support composite motion eighteen. +Thank you. +Don London Region seconding composite eighteen. +President, Congress, brothers and sisters, the issue here is very, really very simple. +We want the E E C to enforce laws at least along the lines imposed by the U S A after the Exxon Valdez disaster. +These are not perfect they're only a starting point. +They include a greater control of shipping and the use of double skin hulls for dangerous cargoes. +There's a certain irony here in the fact that the world leader in free market philosophy should be the one to try and bring some regulation into this area, because that's the problem here, almost complete deregulation the use of convenient ships, low skilled, low paid er exploited often Third World workers, used and abused by ship owners the world over to increase their profit margins, with a subsequent lack of concern over both the environment and people's lives. +As my comrade from Scotland says John Prescott has done a good job here, but I have to say it's not up against very much. +After both the disaster and the sinking in the Channel last week, the government will Lord did you know he's the Shipping Minister? +Hardly is! +After every question on oil tankers, he talked about how they started to put passenger ferries safer. +If ever there was an example which helped the case for the abolition of the House of Lords, then he is it, but that's another resolution for another day. +We talked yesterday about a lot about Europe about the importance of workers' rights in Europe, but here we can expand upon this. +Use the E C's political and financial muscle to bring about proper registered and regulated bulk carriers. +Maybe our MEPs could help here. +Support this motion, it's important that free marketeers aren't given licences to destroy our environment. +Aye seconds. +Motion three one six Single European Market Birmingham Region to move. +Congress, fellow delegates, President. +Val Birmingham Region. +Moving motion three one six Single European Market. +It is with regret and concern that I find myself moving to this resolution since the members as members of the European Community want would like to have been possible to travel freely between members states. +However, this is not the case as some of our partners are operating tours for coaching, coaches passing through their borders. +This motion was triggered by a particular case which happened within the Birmingham region on the first of January nineteen ninety three which should have been a start of the European Market the people's Europe. +Twenty five coaches with one thousand three hundred passengers returning from Christmas break in Austria were met with blunt piece of discrimination which broke communities laws. +When entering Germany you are supposed to pay a toll which is only charged to non-German coach operators. +A Warsaw based European holiday coach company were supposed to pay seven thousand four hundred and fifty pounds as a toll which in itself was an illegal act of discrimination. +Now it is, now this matter has been taken up on behalf of the company, by the constitutary European Member of Parliament John Tomlinson and colleagues. +I have here correspondence that has been exchanged between Mr. Tomlinson and the European Commission and German President. +Anybody wants some copies I have a few copies here. +However, it seems that as far as I can make out from the correspondence, the Commissionaires are split in their opinion as to the legality of action of the German government. +Colleagues, this is simply not acceptable and I call on Congress to support this resolution and instruct the E C to raise the matter in the proper government departments. +I understand that C E C's accepting this motion and asking for remittance for further consultation. +I agree. +I move the motion. +Thank you. +Er, it's not quite correct that that's a new one accepting er and then referring. +We're actually gonna be asking for reference, but we're gonna have a look at it and the C E C's people will make that clear. +Okay? +Er is that seconded three one six? +Formally seconded. +Thank you very much. +Motion three one eight, full car licence new drivers Midland Region to move. +John Midlands and East Coast Region moving motion three one eight. +Brothers and colleagues statistics show that the majority of car accidents are mainly within the first year of people passing their driving test. +At present a person can take a few driving lessons and pass a driving test and he is then free to purchase any type of car they can afford, regardless of how powerful that car is. +It doesn't matter that they have very little experience driving cars on our road. +As soon as they pass their driving test, they can get out of the supervised test car and hop into a two or three litre car and off they go down the road to possibly death and destruction. +Some of them are capable and sensible drivers, but as the records show there are those who not only put their own lives at risk, but that of others as well. +At present there are people who choose to display a green learner plate for a period of time after they have passed their test, but this is only optional and may lead to other coloured learner plates being sold which then may not be taken seriously. +I believe that we should support the principle of a universal sign which identifies the status of the driver as an important step forward to ensuring safety on our roads. +This union has always been at the forefront of health and safety issues within the many industries that we represent. +Health and safety also applies on our roads and bearing in mind, we may be acquiring a large transport section, we should be seen to take an interest in not only our members' safety, but the safety of others as well. +In the interest of road safety colleagues, I ask that you support the motion. +Thank you. +President, Conference, Ken Midlands and East Coast Region seconding motion three one eight. +Conference, if you think back to all those times that you have sat at home watching the news after a day's work like I have, and listen carefully to what is being said, you may well have been horrified and saddened to hear the many stories appertaining to people who have had accidents or died due to the fact that the machine they have been driving has been too powerful. +By obtaining the full car licence, you are able to buy a vehicle which is and can be a lethal weapon in the hands of wrong people, but this motion calls for constraints to be placed upon people when they obtain that full licence and at twelve hundred C C you can have enough power as well as enjoy the driving for the future. +We should be looking to educate and train all people a lot more than we do at the moment where driving is concerned, so that from the very moment you pass your test you can feel confident, other people can feel confident and we can all have confidence on the road. +Conference, to have a sign in the front and rear of your car may help all new drivers to understand that as a new driver you are entering a system that we are not aware of, speed, which is associated with many other items causes the very things that we work in our day-to-day lives under health and safety to stop. +Accidents. +Conference, please support I second. +Motion three one nine. +President, Congress and the Delegates guests. +Owen , Midland and East Coast Region. +Moving motion three one nine. +Congress, it's against the law in this country to ride a bicycle without lights during the hours of darkness. +So why are they not fitted to all new pedal cycles during manufacturing? +The law has not been adhered to in the recent years, as it was in the past and every night when you're out you usually see more than one cyclist driving without lights, often on the pavement. +This causes an hazard to the pedestrians. +The modern cycle has enormous gears and other fitments for riding on all types of roads and usually no fitted lights. +I stopped a cyclist recently, he weren't very big by the way who was showing no lights. +When I asked him why he said it would spoil the looks of his bicycle to have them fitted now. +That's a cycle that cost him over two hundred pounds and it would cost him more money to have lights fitted now as an extra. +If lights were fitted as a standard requirement during manufacturing of pedal cyclists they could be made to blend in with the colour scheme of the cycle. +A major campaign was launched regarding the wearing of cycle helmets and there has been a great response, favourable response to this, cutting down enormously under a number of fatal accidents involving pedal cyclists. +So it's now up to Congress to pressurize the manufacturing of cyclists, of cycles to fit rare and rear lights. +Sorry, to, I'll say that again to fit front and rear lights during production thus cutting down the number of accidents involving cyclists not showing lights during the hours of darkness even farther. +In the meantime Congress, we call upon the police to enforce their powers on cycles, cyclists riding without lights during the hours of darkness. +Now I urge you to support. +Thank you very much. +I'll try not to be as shaky this morning. +Whitecliffe , National Race Committee, South Western Region. +Yesterday I handed you a message regarding er the request renewed to make a statement over the phrase Black Wednesday, a phrase that was coined by John Smith two days after the event. +You have not made that statement. +There are four members of the National Race Committee here today and I tell you now +Whitecliffe +if you do not make the statement +Whitecliffe +we will walk out of Conference +Whitecliffe +Thank you aye +er, Whitecliffe, it's not a point of order because the point of order has no relevance to this particular debate +It has no relevance to this debate but it has +Whitecliffe +plenty of relevance to the black membership of this union +Whitecliffe. +Whitecliffe. +The point of order has no relevance to this particular debate. +I will make the statement at the appropriate time to Congress. +We've got the statement here. +Don't come back. +the statement is here the statement will be made. +Second the resolution list. +Midlands and East Coast Region. +With the increase in public transport costs, road tax and insurance, more and more people are changing to the humble bike as an alternative form of transport. +In nineteen seventy nine their sales topped the one and a half million mark. +In nineteen ninety two this has risen to two point two million and the indications are the ninety three figures are going to be much higher. +In fact told me this is an expanding market. +As the favour, biking cannot be beaten, the cost of the average bike is between ninety nine pounds and one hundred and ninety nine pounds. +If you compare that cost with the average cost of public transport, you will realize you can soon recoup your initial inlay outlay within six months and unlike cars there are no parking problems. +On the debit side biking can be positively dangerous, that is why in nineteen eighty nine Congress passed a motion calling for the provision of cycleways. +I move that resolution and on I've yet to see any evidence of them. +Delegates I ride a motorbike, so I am familiar with the hazards faced by cyclists, I am also too well aware of the lack of road sense of some cyclists. +I'm aware of most of the crazy things they do. +They could give kamikaze pilots some lessons! +So I tend to give them a wide berth wherever possible. +However, much harder to anticipate is their sudden appearance in front of you from nowhere in the dark with lights on and it's not just kids, it's adults who should know better. +It's no good depending as Owen said waiting for people to fit lights themselves, they won't because they don't think accidents can happen to them. +One accident is one too many. +Please support this resolution. +Conference wish to put a point of view on several of these motions and I call Frank . +Frank responding for the C E C and motions three one four, three one six, three one eight, three one nine and composite eighteen. +Congress, the C E C has asked me to accept motion three one four and composite eighteen to refer motions three one six and three one eight and to accept motion three one nine. +On motion three one four British Rail Privatization. +This government has got to be really be joking with its proposals for example the West Coast Line from north to south is estimated to require in the region of eight hundred million to cover track repairs and modernization as well as outdated rolling stock and signal replacements. +All the speeds will have to be reduced for all rolling stock used on that line which will increase the cost for uses of the of that service. +Because of privatization plans, British Rail hasn't got any rolling stock on order. +If they won't order the stock, do they really expect a new franchisee to do it? +I don't think they will. +At least not when I'm passing on that cost to you the users and as any cost increase will decrease the use of further track closures will follow. +Another example is from region rail which is a totally independent system but over the years the five local authorities have ploughed millions of pounds of investment into improving a system, the stations the track and the rolling stock which in accordance with the Rail Bill will be put out of franchise next year but will anyone have to buy it? +No. +The company that requires us to pay out the smallest subsidy will be given the franchise and allow to use or probably allow to decay a facility that's been established over the years while it takes its profit and distributes them to its shareholders. +On composite eighteen what more needs to be said? +This system is used to reduce wages, increase company profits and totally undermine training and health and safety procedures for crews and provide hazards for all the countries around whose coast they sail with the death and environmental problems that follow from accidents such as occurred in the past week. +Lives should be, and are, more important than profits through exploitation. +Motion three one six refers to tolls on passengers. +It appears that German states are opposing a VAT-like tax on in an inconsistent way, aggravated, aggravated by a failure to warn of any increase in the tax in January nineteen ninety three. +I would ask you to refer this motion so we can investigate the background more closely. +In the view of the C E C motion three one eight has wide implications for a transport industry as a whole and alternate safety measures need to be examined. +However, we have no difficulty with the idea that cycles should be fitted with lights. +Should many cyclists ignore this law or are hurt as a result, it's always possible for lights to be removed if necessary. +Colleagues the C E C is asking you to accept motion three one four and composite eighteen to refer motion three one six and three one eight and to accept motion three one nine. +Thank you. +Thanks Frank. +Conference I propose to take the vote three one four is being accepted by the Executive. +All those in favour against. +That's carried. +Composite eighteen is being supported by the Executive all those in favour against that's carried motion three one six reference is being sought does Birmingham agree? +Conference agree? +Thanks very much. +Motion three one eight reference is being sought does Midland agree? +Thanks very much. +Conference agree? +Motion three one nine is being accepted. +All those in favour? +Against? +That's carried. +Colleagues we now turn to the special report, a new concept of trade unionism G M B cooperation with the T & G. I propose that the General Secretary should move this we'll have it formally seconded. +We'll then take motion two five five T G W U. Motion two two eight Changing Employment Patterns moved and seconded I will then invite speakers from each of the regions on the Special Report. +General Secretary to move. +John General Secretary moving the special report and you may have noticed that the television cameras have gone. +This is only about the possible er partnership of two of the largest unions in Britain. +An organization which if it ever came to be formed will be representing nearly two million people. +Pity our media showed a different sense of priorities. +But colleagues, five years ago I looked forward to the merger between G M B and Apex and predicted by the year two thousand there would be only four major unions in Britain, call them the four super unions. +In fact as you know the world has moved a good deal faster than any of us expected. +Last year the A W U was formed and next month UNISON comes into existence. +This debate is about how we will respond and in a very real sense, it's about the future of the whole trade union movement in Britain. +In the mid eighties we decided that if we were going to be one of the super unions, we had to be amalgamation-friendly. +We've been uniquely successful in the amalgamation stakes. +Textiles workers, Greater London Staff Association, Apex, tailor and garment workers, they were all wooed by other unions but they all had the good sense to merge into the G M B. In the next few months we'll be joined by members of E F T A T. I am delighted that the Special E F T A T Conference voted in favour of the G M B. I welcome that decision and I pay tribute to the many colleagues who worked so hard to achieve that victory. +We'll be seeing the E F T A T colleagues on Thursday, I hope you'll give them a very very warm welcome. +That's the good news. +The bad news is of course that our successful amalgamation policy has been made against the background of falling union membership. +We've done better than most, but our membership levels have suffered as well. +High unemployment, anti trade union laws, macho management, they've all had their damaging effect. +We all know people who want trade union protection, but dare not join because they fear victimization. +Because of political hostility trade union membership in Britain is being held at an artificially low level. +If we have the same legal system even as continental Europe, trade union membership in Britain will be at least two million higher than it is today, but let's not delude ourselves. +Political spite has done us enormous damage, but it's not the whole story. +During the last ten years Britain has changed, very often for the worse, the nature of work has changed and we the trade union Movement have not changed fast enough to keep up with the pace. +Think about it for a moment. +What are the three pillars that support trade unionism in Britain? +Recognition by employers,check-off agreements, reliable shop stewards and activists. +Our problem is that one by one these three pillars are crumbling away. +Many of you know John here today. +He's a distinguished delegate to many many congresses and was London Region Secretary before Paul. +The point of mentioning John is that he used to work at the massive Hoover plant in West London. +It closed a few years ago, they couldn't knock it down because it was meant to be a prime example of nineteen thirties architecture. +John always said that they spent more money restoring the facade than they ever spent on the thousands of workers who worked inside the plant, but then when it closed they couldn't knock it down, so they turned it into a superstore. +That seems to me to be a fable from Thatcher's Britain. +From manufacturing to retail, from workshop to shop work, from full time to part time. +If you look around the towns and cities of Britain, you will find the same story, be it steel plants, those vast chemical plants, the big engineering works, they scarcely exist any more and if they still are there, they've shrunk to a tiny part of their earlier size. +The old industrial landmarks are disappearing. +Instead we have what I'll call a bits and pieces economy. +Service industries, small workplaces, short-term employment, and more and more employers who don't know anything about trade unions and don't want to know. +In workplace after workplace we find exploited workers, frightened workers, vulnerable workers, but little chance of recognition no hope of check-off and no one brave enough to come forward as a steward. +Our problem, our central problem in the British trade union movement is that we have a trade union movement that operates very comfortably in one world, while over half the people of Britain work in an entirely different world, a world where trade unionism is scarcely ever mentioned and if it is mentioned, it's mentioned with a hint of fear. +The challenge set out in the introduction to our report, the first page, it was very carefully written, is to build a new trade unionism on a model to fit this new world. +A new concept of trade unionism that offers a vital and effective support system for everyone at work, everyone at work, not just the ones in the big workplaces, but everyone. +A new concept that doesn't depend on recognition, doesn't depend of check-off and doesn't depend on representation by shop stewards in every workplace. +Where we've got those conditions great, but we've also got to find a trade unionism for the rest and the growing majority of employees in Britain. +Now of course we've got some experience in these things and we can put together some sort of picture of what that trade unionism for a new world might look like. +The first thing you've go to do is you've got to provide services that mean something to everyone at work. +Legal representation very important, maybe also pension schemes that can provide real pension protection. +Quick-fire advice down the phone or face-to-face on work-related issues. +Then of course you have to ensure that you can offer representation whenever it is needed, but most of all, we've somehow got to create the feeling of lifetime loyalty to the trade union movement and to a particular trade union. +Not just a situation where you work in one place and when you leave you leave the union as well. +With fast changing employment, there's no future in that. +Somehow we've got to say to people we will provide this valuable service to you from your first job until your last breath, wherever you work. +If we get recognition, we'll bargain for you, but if you don't, we'll protect and support you in any job you fill. +Well, that's just an outline, but it's an outline to meet a need that no other union at the moment is even trying to meet, and what a need, and what a demand. +Do you know that nearly nine hundred thousand people walked off the streets of Britain into Citizen Advice Bureaux last year to ask for their help on employment issues because they had no trade union? +We could offer a service that no CAB can match. +So how do we do it? +And this is where I come to the point of cooperation and maybe more with other unions. +We don't start from scratch, a plug for the T & G, they started down this track with their own link-up campaign and in the G M B we've pushed forward the frontiers of trade unionism into professional small businesses, legal offices and of course other commercial services. +But how do we give a new impetus to that development? +Well, we've got somehow to think our way out of the current difficulties. +The best chance of success for working people no doubt would be if the two great general unions, the T G W U and the G M B, found a way of doing it together, found a way of creating the most powerful union that has ever existed in Britain. +Calling our resources, uniting our activists, achieving by cooperation what we've never achieved by wasteful competition, but then of course that's a vision. +And then the practicalities come in, and that's why your Executive is being very cautious in this report. +Maybe the task is too ambitious. +Maybe a hundred years of history and tradition will defeat us. +Maybe the T & G doesn't want a partnership of equals, maybe it wants a takeover. +That wouldn't do for us. +The G M B won't be a kebab on anyone's skewer. +So that's why we move carefully. +In all honesty the difficulties are formidable, but I tell you this, for too many years trade unionism has been in the doldrums and with such a prize, however difficult to achieve, it would be a betrayal of our heritage and a betrayal of our members if we don't give it a good hard try. +So the report is about the possibility of a grand enterprise. +The industrial cooperation between our unions should continue of course. +Our members wanted it and in many industries it makes sense, but the bigger task, the main event, is to see whether by a more formal relationship, a more formal partnership, we can build a union which is better than the T & G, better than the G M B and better suited for modern conditions than any trade union so far created in Britain. +Now it's important to understand what the Executive is looking for. +This is not an amalgamation for its own sake, it is not an amalgamation to manage a continuing and more comfortable decline, it's not bolting together two super unions into one mega union and just hoping for the best. +What we should try to create is a flagship of the labour movement. +Modern relevant and as successful in recruitment of the workforce of the nineties as we used to be in recruiting the workforce of the sixties and seventies. +The flagship of the British labour movement, nothing less, that's the vision, that's what we want to try and create and that's what we want to come back to you and tell you about the prospects next year. +That's our vision. +The flagship of the labour movement and our task now if you pass this report is to find out whether that flagship can be built. +Think about it carefully. +I move. +We have the report formally rescinded. +Thank you very much indeed. +I now call motion two five five T G W U London Region to move. +President, Congress, Roy London Region moving motion two five five on the T & G. Colleagues, let's make it clear, this motion is not opposed to a merger of the T & G. What it seeks to do is put forward another idea which is to continue to work closely with the T & G on a wide range of jointly agreed . +For we desperately need a common approach in such areas as the T U C, on the General Council, on the General Committee and Congress, and more importantly joint roles in the Labour Party. +We need to jointly work together in public services if we are to combat the problems faced by the . +All that work is positive and in the interests of all our members a slow and measured approach are coming together by general consent, building trust and commitment to a new big union. +Colleagues, I believe the building of a trust is the most important fact in the whole of this debate. +We shouldn't kid ourselves for in factories and workplaces around the country G M B and T & G are at each other 's throats. +That trust will take some building, especially in the Liverpool area region, sorry. +This motion calls upon the C E C to seek a structure which would keep both unions autonomous, keeping their structures, their conferences, their regional government etcetera. +Let the two unions come together by building the links in the common ground. +Colleagues, the C E C statement report told er considered trade unions and its conclusions recommended that preliminary discussions for Transport and General on the feasibility of a merger with a report back on next year's Congress. +The danger with that we believe could be that we would set a date for the merger and take all the important issues and discussions, how many regions will it have will we have, the those regions and a hundred and one other problems raised by that merger into a tight timescale. +This will only cause problems with consultation with the members and they're the most important, the bloody members, but it could lead to and a scramble for jobs. +It could also tie up members of the C E C, the General Secretary, the Regional Secretary, the President, Officers and many others in internal wrangles new union just at the time when we need to look outward in the next two or three years. +The danger is it could damage the very relations we tend, we need to build. +A structure as I've said previously will give us the vital time and for the detailed discussions and consultations we need if we are to build the trust for the merger we all wish to see. +Colleagues, please support the motion. +Seconder colleagues for two five five +Yes London Region er Group Four Security, have you noticed we've lost another prisoner last night and he nicked me trousers! +We er we concur with the General Secretary's er when he said two years ago there will be four super unions by the year two thousand obviously that's gonna be a reality. +Er, it's something that will be welcomed by the trade union movement, a new forward, a new beginning to join once again the fruits of our labour with partnership with other unions and the Labour Party which was what we all need, but it must be done with careful planning and the brains at the top of the union must be telling the of the union, the members on the shop floor, the right direction in which to walk. +Clearly at the state of the talks with the T & G, we still have a long long way to go to reach this new goal and there's a strong rumour that there has been discussions between Sir John Edmunds and Lord Bill Morris the name of the new union already and I think an apt title for the union at the moment would be Yugoslavia because we're in ethnic groups, we are sections, we've got the boiler makers who are still claiming things they lost ten years ago when they merged. +We've got Apex who've been brought in to bring in the new the white collar worker unions to form another concept of trade unionism. +Lovely, now me, I'm an ex-M A T S A member, I'm in the security industry, at the moment I haven't got a section, so what am I a Bosnian, a Serbian or a Croatian I don't know. +So surely we got to tidy up our own act before we go further forward and as a trade union surely we are to fight unemployment. +Now surely will this merger cause er unemployment amongst our staff? +Will we need two general secretaries, two presidents, two vice presidents? +And then again look, Look at Congress . +Obviously, if we're gonna be two big unions obviously Portsmouth is no longer going to fit the bill and I think that's a shame because several congresses I've been to and this is the finest weather I've ever enjoyed. +Can't argue with that. +And what a lovely place Portsmouth is I must say went to the gentlemen's on, the toilet at the seafront last night and as I left, I looked at the sign that said er, please adjust your dress before you leave. +That's equality for you. +And then what are we gonna have? +Are we gonna have an annual congress, a bi-annual congress, a tri-annual congress? +When are we gonna have rules revisions, there's a long way to go and as the, the er General Secretary said, be careful, because I've been to talks with, on, from the Regional Committee with the T & G yes we got on lovely with them, they're fine, they, they gave us a nice big er commemorative medal of the dockers' strike and it's got my granddad and my great granddad on it cos they was there in the other union mind you while we've done all the striking and that they stood by, but nevertheless they're not bad lads anyway and as John said we must be careful that we are not the ones that are gonna be taken over, because I remember that old song of the fifties, never smile at a crocodile +don't be taken in by his welcome grin, he's imagining how well you'll fit beneath his skin . +Brothers, sisters, President, we've still got a long way to go. +General Secretary, you may be ready to dive in now, but we but we want to wait till the time is right. +I second. +Goodness me, keep taking the tablets. +Motion two two eight Midland Region to move. +Can't follow that. +President, Congress Bob Midlands and East Coast Region moving motion two two eight. +Changing employment patterns. +Many of the points that I make in this speech have already been covered by John, but they are important and deserve to be repeated. +The matters of employing people is changing and in the main those changes fly in the face of traditional G M B organization and make recruitment and retention of membership more difficult. +Whatever the reasons for these changes, be they because of a hostile government, new technology or the European dimension, we must respond and change if we are to survive as a creditable organization. +The employment situation described in the motion are no longer the exception, they are the rule and as such we must sharpen up our recruitment act. +That is not to say we should adopt the hard sell or abandon our traditional value, but we must seriously examine how we can appeal to more desperate scattered membership. +We must seriously examine how we can involve such membership in the decision making of the Union and carry them with us through change. +We must seriously examine the relevance and method of delivery of our range of benefits. +How can we appeal to part time workers and convince them that we can change things for the better, many of whom are home workers who are working in appalling conditions and often for less than fifty pence an hour? +What can we do for members in small workplaces where even basic health and safety standards are exempt by law? +How shall we respond to the loss of check-off as the proposed legislation means we surely will? +How can we react to the loss of local authority standards of paying conditions and negotiation practices? +How can we service and maintain our appeal to members opting to work in Europe and how can we recruit Europeans working here? +Clearly this is a wide ranging motion designed to provoke thought and debate with no easy answers. +I welcome the decision of the C E C to examine the issues involved in greater detail. +I move. +Liz Midlands and East Coast. +The speaker from the Northern Region will get on very well with my three year old granddaughter, she don't like crocodiles either. +However, in the interest of brevity, I will my remarks to points A and B. Since nineteen seventy nine there's been a major shift away from our industrial base towards service industries. +Consequently part time work and casual work is now a significant feature of our economy. +Effectively we've become a low-waged, low-skilled economy with virtually no protection for many of our fellow workers. +At the same time, home working is on the increase, it's been estimated one million people do paid work at home, seventy three percent of which are women. +They take on this work, not for pin money, but to provide for their family's basic needs. +They are forced into accepting low paid jobs, exposed to health hazards with no job protection because of family responsibilities or affordable child care. +You know delegates, when most people think about home working, they really think beyond the traditional jobs associated with this group of workers. +I recently read the A B C of Homeworking, it was quite never mind, I can't say the damn word, I could see very clearly, the potential for injury and exposure to other hazards is frightening. +I fear the element is the growth of white collar working. +It's my guess and it's an educated guess, within the next decade this growth will speed up partly because of new technology and the employer's needs to cut costs and maximize profits. +You know delegates, this resolution is about recruitment and retention, but it's also about the ideals on which this movement of ours was founded. +If as a union we are to meet the challenges that lie ahead, then please support this resolution. +If not, we can stand here like and get our feet wet, because that's what's gonna happen. +Please support. +Thanks very much indeed Liz. +Colleagues, I now come back to the special report and will take speakers from the regions. +Liverpool Region. +If colleagues from the back of Congress are intending to speak, if they could come forward. +Alan Liverpool Region. +President, Congress, Liverpool Region support the document. +We do need closer links, not only with the T & G but also with other unions, but let's not forget that other unions are organizing to build up their membership at the expense of the G M B. We need to make up our minds do we want an amalgamation or not. +If we do, we must act quickly because our members in the Health Service, Local Authorities and all public services are in danger of being approached by the creation of UNISON. +Our craft members are in danger of being approached by the A W E U +Alan, Alan I'm sorry to interrupt you, I do apologize. +Colleagues this is a very important matter. +I'm sure we're all agreed about that. +So let's have the best of order for the speakers please. +Right Alan +Thank you President. +Our craft members are in danger of being poached by the A W E U. An amalgamation may not be some people's ideal, but it will take away a lot of the friction between the two unions. +We will only have one set of policies and one set of rules. +There would also be another benefit in amalgamation. +We would get back the two and a half thousand members the T & G poached in Liverpool City Council. +One final point, the Liverpool Regional Council strongly recommended that amalgamation talks should start as soon as possible. +Scotland. +President, Colleagues, Geoff G M B Scotland. +Supporting the C E C Report. +Colleagues, G M B Scotland welcomes and congratulates the Central Executive's initiative in bringing forward the of this Congress the big important debate of this Congress between ourselves and the Transport and General Workers' Union at some time in the future. +The paper quite rightly says and I quote the relationship between the T G W U and the G M B has all been marked by a blend of competition and co-operation . +It then goes on to detail a number of joint initiatives covering the the country and all the G M B regions. +To be fair, the C E C have not tried to say that everything in the garden is rosy, they've also highlighted a number of problem areas that still exist. +Indeed all look at the recent decision by the and Allied Trade Union to the members who have amalgamated themselves Transport and General Workers. +It's only dirty tricks and underhanded tactics used by the T & G during the approach of the Workers' Union so must realize Congress, to be more positive, one of the major benefits or more, the major benefit from future amalgamation with the T & G would be the free help of officials from both unions and and negotiations both national, regional and even at times individual company level where both unions help members. +Colleagues, the time gained by having only one and recruitment and on negotiations rather at least two could be much better utilized than the certain, the day to day needs of membership. +Colleagues, G M B Scotland subscribe to review that the benefits from the future amalgamation between the two great general unions within the United Kingdom would by far any possible deficits. +Congress, G M B Scotland supports. +London Region. +Congress, President. +Ed Westminster Trade Union Political Staffs Branch, London Region. +Congress, I'm a Labour Councillor and whenever I sit on the Council I also ask Conservative members to declare their interest before they speak on an issue, so I better declare mine. +When I first went to work, I went and joined the union, there wasn't one in the factory I was working in and so I went to the nearest er trade union office and joined. +That union supported me as I recruited the whole of the workforce and er, I was then sacked after four weeks! +Some things don't change! +The union then supported me further when I got another job and was a steward there, a branch secretary a district committee member and then on the regional committee and they also helped to put me through polytechnic and into the job that I did looking at mergers at the University of Warwick. +That union was the Transport and General Workers' Union. +That's my interest. +Having looked at mergers then from both sides, I've seen the prejudices that go into any debate that takes place between any unions coming together. +Obviously unions have their own traditions and their own ways of doing things in their own organizational structures. +Clearly in any merger between the G M B and the T & G there are big hurdles to overcome. +There are, and I know because I've seen both sets of prejudices, prejudices from both sides. +The T & G traditionally have looked at the G M B as er look down at sometimes at the G M B. I've heard them described before as the sweepers up union and various other things. +Derogatory terms. +I came into the G M B and heard exactly the same kind of derogatory comments about the Transport and General Workers' Union. +Comrades we must put to one side these kind of, this kind of fighting. +We must I think look to go forward together. +The union movement is under attack, we cannot afford ever to waste our resources on fighting each other we should look to always work together. +However in doing so, it is important that we take time, because time allows people to come together in a sensible way, not to be forced together. +We don't need to see er leaflets and so on urging us into merger before they're actually ready to take place from the membership itself. +Go steadily forward, work towards the merger, but don't force it too quickly. +I support the document +Midland Region +President, Conference Alan Midland and East Coast Region, opposing the C E C document. +Conference my region isn't against amalgamations with other unions. +The G M B's got a long record of joining forces with others which has proved to be successful, but if we're gonna be honest, it's always been recognized that we would be the predominant union and yes Apex members we should have been honest with you at the time of merger, because it's quite clear you was gonna lose your identity to at least to some extent and we should have been honest about that. +The only thing I would say delegates is that the we will also swallow the goldfish and there's a message in that for all of us. +A merger with the Transport and General Workers' Union will be like any other previous arrangements. +The problems that are gonna manifest themselves will any possible advantages. +Consider for example what's gonna happen to the rulebook and to our structures. +Let's think about the number of regions we have, the T & G have got seven, we've got ten. +Perhaps we'll lose a region, or three. +How regional councils and the C E C operate? +What I do know we'll, we'll to get everyone in. +How are we going to organize Congress? +Perhaps President we could solve the problem by the T & G having theirs one year and us the next. +I suppose that's that kind of bi-annual arrangement. +What's going to happen to the Regional Committees, to officers and staff? +These will be the issues that'll concentrate but more importantly, what's in the best interest of our members? +Will their concerns be at the forefront of people's minds once the powerbroking bloodletting starts, and blood will be spilt you know. +Ask the T & G officers what they think to the way they were when the redundancy notices were handed out so full time officers in the +in the audience, be careful cos you're going don't be under any illusion when your region, your job, or your elected position is under threat, it's human nature to protect your back and when this happens, it's the members who end up being the casualties. +Conference, the document quite rightly identifies the common ground between our two unions. +It points to the cooperation which already exists. +So why do we need to formalize these arrangements, why rock the boat at time when the political climate is ? +You don't believe for a minute that this government will stand by while the two biggest general unions get together, no way, they'll attack us in any way they can and I warn ya they haven't run out of ideas yet. +I'm all in favour of fighting the Tories to protect our members' interest, but we won't be doing much fighting because we'll be using all our efforts sorting out internal squabbles. +We can also expect de-recognition by employers who are frightened to death by the T & G. It it's already happening. +I tell you another year of feasibility studies will take us to the point of no return. +Bill the and John started holding hands about a year ago and it's already resulted in their engagement and it's clear that they're planning their big day for the summer of next year! +We should tell them to forget about having their banns read and advise them stay just good friends. +Colleagues we have an opportunity today to vote this document down, to vote against it because the future of our union and the interests of our members is at risk. +Let's take it and prevent a constructive + +back issues have turned out some previous lectures but you can pick them up afterwards rather than now. +Today still unfortunate cos you've got a two page handout. +Why? +Cos they do little trees on them which takes space. +Er, well this, this is the last week at Kings term which means that this is the last lecture in this series so if you come back next week you'll be disappointed. +Erm the service continues next term with me starting and then Mike taking over half way through and what I'll be doing is supplying the general two theoried two theoretic semantics that I've been talking about erm two specific instructions in a natural language I can get what six +definite descriptions and names something like that. +So today I'm going to talk about notions of structure or about sentence structure and logical form, so point one a reminder something that I keep saying, knowledge of language is knowledge of a bod a body of rules that assign phonological, syntactic and semantic properties to words and sentences. +Thanks. +You've got a box in your head and it's got rules of those three types, at least those three types . +Erm now, something that puzzled me for quite a long time when I started out doing philosophy of language er one or two years ago erm frequently you hear claims or we hear claims to the effect that this is a logical form of this sentence or this is the structure of this sentence, or this is the semantic structure of this sentence and I was never quite sure what that actually meant erm it's partly because apart from Davidson, erm a lot of people who write on these issues don't actually tell you what the background theory is and exactly what the point of the assignment of structured sentences is supposed to be, erm however after thinking about it for a while, I've arrived at the following following general view there are at least three rather different enterprises er which might lead you to assign sentence structure and er one needs to figure out the relations between them. +So point, sentence structure. +There are three distinct projects logic, syntax and semantics which might lead you, which do lead you to assign structures to sentences. +Logical structure accounts for certain inferential relations among sentences. +I'm gonna elaborate on all these a bit in syntax a lot as we proceed. +Syntactic structure accounts for well and ill-formedness. +Semantic structure accounts for the derivation of meanings of complex expressions from those of their components. +It's not obvious a priori whether all or any pair of these projects converge on a single set of structures. +And now just to spend the rest of the lecture elaborating on what I just said. +So logic first erm point three. +Logic needs to account for logical relations among sentences the sort that we'll learn about in elementary symbolic logic. +For example, needs to account for why if the sentence P and Q is true, then so is the sentence Q and in order to do that it assigns a certain structure, for example as on the handout in my assigned structure and brackets P Q. Erm anyway erm it just has and has a separate particle operating on two distinct sentences that are not ordered syntax needs to account for the well-formedness of the structure, sorry P and Q. The ill-formedness of P Q and the similar grouping of and with or that is in English between sentences and where you can find one and find another but not with, not you don't say John loves Mary not Peter loves Jill. +A slightly more subtle data the well-formedness of the following dialogue Sally likes Jill yes, and she likes Mary versus the ill-formedness of Sally likes Jill yes, she likes Mary and. +Well what this suggests is that and she likes Mary accounts as a legitimate string with and at the beginning of the sentence, but she likes Mary doesn't, so you can't stick and at the end of the sentence. +Thanks for . +Okay, erm okay moving on to semantics, we're half way through point three. +Semantics needs to account for our understanding of P and Q on the basis of our understanding of P, Q, and and. +It might just assign a structure P and Q, three separate constituents between their structure. +In each case the assignment is part of a large theory with its own particular data and goals. +So it's a priori possible that the three projects don't converge. +Erm okay I'm going to talk about syntax mostly erm is everybody happy with the, the role that the assignment of structure plays in, in logics and semantics? +I'll come back to semantics a bit at the end. +But if you remember your symbolic logics there should be no problems. +That rules deduction rules of whatever kind er derivation rules or rules er applied to sentences in logic on the basis of the structure brackets what kind of connectives you have and so on. +Okay. +Semantic syntax and then afterwards the relation between syntax and semantics so I'm actually going to do some real syntax. +Lesson one in syntax. +Point four erm sentences are made up of noun phrases and verb phrases those phrases can be composed of intransitive verbs standing alone, or transitive verbs and objects so you can have four, the structure what sounds like Florence smiled actually has a structure as on the handout in the sentence composed of a noun phrase and a verb phrase, the noun phrase contains a single noun Florence and the verb phrase contains a single verb smile or you can have something like four two, Florence teased Dougal and there the verb phrase contains the verb teased and another noun phrase containing the single noun Dougal. +Okay, that's the question is why, why does it have that structure? +It might be that the subject noun and verb phrase go together to form a constituent, so you have Florence teased Dougal or the structure might not be that it might just be three separate constituents with no firm structure forming a further constituent, so why that structure? +Okay, well I shall now give you evidence for that some which is straightforward, some which is a little bit more subtle. +So point five, evidence for verb phrase structure. +First of all ellipsis. +This is where you drop something from a sentence or phrase and you leave a word or a phrase out. +You can often allow a verb and an object together, but never a subject and a verb, so sentence three and five you can say Florence said she teased Dougal and she did, I E she did tease Dougal, but sentence four is ill-formed. +Florence said she teased Dougal and Dougal, which is what you'd get if you allowed it and Florence teased, so you can allow teased Dougal, but you can't allow Florence teased. +So here's the hypothesis to explain that ellipsis is confined to constituents where constituents are just what they sound like, genuine components of a larger thing which is signalled by sticking brackets, labelled brackets round them so they make a phrase and you can do certain things with them. +Okay. +Second, four B, erm the proform substitution where a proform is like a pronoun or a proverb or if you fancy a pro-sentence erm sentence five Florence teased Dougal, and Brian did so too did so means teased Dougal the sentence for that is a proform. +That's fine but sentence six Florence teased Dougal, and did so Brian too doesn't sound right but notice that's exactly what you would get if you could substitute the proform for a subject verb construction and then it would mean Florence teased Brian too. +Okay? +C, the third piece of evidence idioms tend to be either whole sentences or noun phrases or verb object instructions, but never verb subject or rather subject verb instructions. +When an idiom is just something that has the form of, has a certain apparent grammatical form but actually occurs just as a single unit of a fixed meaning, so it has no genuine semantic structure from which you can determine its meaning, for example kick the bucket means die and you don't get that in the meaning of kick the bucket. +but notice kick the bucket appears as a verb phrase and eat humble pie, get your knickers in a twist and so on. +So if you just generally think about the idioms like that, frozen pieces of language and fixed meanings you'll find they come in formed sentences and subject expressions and verb phrases but not subject verb. +Could you say I walk, I walk? +I walk? +By idiom? +Yeah. +Erm well really it's just what I said, it's er roughly speaking it's when er a string of words doesn't have the meaning you'd expect on the basis of the standard semantics of the language, but rather has a fixed different meaning and whenever there's any apparent structure in it, I E several words, er, their, their normal meanings are irrelevant which is the meaning of the whole phrase. +So like I said kick the bucket, the meaning of that idiomatically is just die, sorry die. +It's a metaphorical meaning originally? +Er, it might be I don't know in this particular case. +It often comes about that way, it starts as a, a metaphor and then gets frozen. +What do you mean subject verbs and ? +Er what I actually mean is whenever you have an idiom, you can substitute in the position of a whole sentence or of a verb phrase, but you can't substitute it for a subject and a verb, leaving the object of the sentence intact. +Yeah, so, so Okay then the general I'm for is that in a subject verb object sentence there's very important sense in which the verb and the object go together, they form one unit and one constituent of a sentence, whereas subject and verb don't. +So in point of fact idioms is you'll find that they always fit in either this slot or in this slot, but you won't find an idiom which has to form such that if you remove the subject and verb from a sentence you can stick the idiom in there and it will make sense. +You're the literary one. +A, because it's not an idiom, and B even if it were it would be a whole sentence, because walk is intransitive. +Well think about it I mean there might be one, in which case we have to do a little bit er dancing around +Why doesn't the idiom just take the place of the verb, because if you get rid of the object as well? +Well it's a verb phrase so erm they just, all that means is if you take a subject expression and well, what goes, what goes after such expression is a verb phrase, that my opinion not just you know . +So, although in all these three, kick the bucket, eat humble pie, get your knickers in a twist er all look like fairly complex transitive constructions. +They look as though they they don't really they actually intransitive. +So that's okay, the point is that they can substitute in a sentence intransitive verb or transitive verb object grammatic +How about erm God smiled upon John, God smiled upon someone? +Er +Meaning he was talented. +Mm, yeah, good. +I don't know, I'll think about it. +Very good +Well unfortunately if they're idioms, then they do. +God smiled upon him, er idiom? +It does seem to be doesn't it? +Because if you substitute something into the God, it doesn't really work or smiled upon fortune smiled upon him. +Fate smiled upon him. +Yeah, it's not an idiom. +Notice it really isn't smiled upon, smiled upon is one, is the idiom. +so that's just a, a verb and then you can put, put in anything such that if such thing smiles upon you, you are blessed, God, destiny, fate, fortune. +I'm sure there are things about +Well there might be er and that's the trouble when one starts doing philosophy and there's real study of language, it gets really difficult. +Erm okay, moving on to point six, and now we soon get a little bit fancy. +This is more evidence for the claim that you get a verb phrase in a sentence erm, but it introduces, er it's also an example of how you can account for grammatical phenomena in terms of er structural relations in sentences and large expressions. +So, point six erm okay look at the sentences one and two under six, one is apparently ill-formed, herself left, except in I think some Irish dialects actually yes, well it has a rather special meaning where herself is given special status erm in the context, but in normal English, English herself left is ill-formed, but two, Florence saw herself is fine herself is a reflective pronoun refers that herself each other or one another, the other are reflective pronouns. +Erm and then if you move on to sentences four and five underneath them er anyone left is ill-formed, but no one saw anyone is fine. +Still, ideas that the reflective pronoun herself and the item anyone which is called a negative polarity item, the item anyone needs to have something else in the sentence in order to license them they can't just occur freely in the normal position for er nouns, even though they are nouns. +So Florence licenses herself and Florence herself and no one licenses anyone in anyone. +Okay, but the item that licenses them the other licensing sentence you need in order to license these items, you can't just go anywhere in the sentence so sentence three, herself saw Florence is no good, even though Florence is there, it's in the wrong place relative to herself and similarly six, anyone saw no one is no good, even though no one is in the sentence. +So what we need to do is you need to figure out what kind of items license erm reflects the pronouns like herself and make it a polarity items like anyone. +What kind of items license them and where do they have to be in the sentence. +Well the position the relative position is to find in terms of pre-structural notions. +Erm, okay the notation for Flo Florence teased Dougal is it can be expressed, converted directly into the explicit tree notation on the handout. +That just depicts the same structure in terms of constituents and sub-constituents, so the whole thing is a sentence which in the bracketing notation just has the sentence with its bracket and the other bracket's way down the other end, and this is mirrored by the label sentence occurring at the top of the tree, it means it covers everything below it roughly. +The sentence is divided into noun phrase and a verb phrase and so on verb phrase . +That's just a bracket notation made more explicit. +Okay, we can now define certain pre-structural relations which we'll then use to explain the behaviour of things like herself so it's only over okay, and node X dominates a node Y right, where a node is the point where a label appears, sentence node,node and so on. +So node X quote dominates a node Y if and only if there's a path leading down the tree from X to Y. It's straightforward, just means it's higher up in the tree, and there's a path connecting them. +Okay, we can now define a further notion called C command the phrase X C commands a phrase Y, if and only if A neither of X nor Y dominates the other so neither is directly above the other and in the path and B, the first branching node is dominating X, also dominates Y so let's find out if X and C commands to Y, you go up the tree from X and you find the branching node, the first branching node dominating X and see if that node also dominates Y. Okay. +Well I've just defined it as constructural notion and am now going to show the point, having done that. +What C command really is is a scope, it's er syntactic correlate in the notion of scope from logical semantics. +No, I don't think C means anything. +It's erm terminology it comes along with government binding. +Dominant. +Which is if, I mean when he was giving lectures in government and binding,people would invited him would put up posters saying government and binding so he got all the wrong audiences. +It was quite a serious problem I mean that you, you get hundreds and hundreds of people in a room to get jobs to talk about politics and he'll start +Okay. +What's the point for a C command? +Well, well the main point is that actually it's the proper, er syntactic definition of scope and, but in this context it'll explain stuff about, er negative polarity pronouns. +Yeah. +Yeah. +So if you look at the tree T one okay. +Florence C commands both saw and herself because if you go up the tree from Florence you find the first branching node, that's the S node and that dominates both saw and herself. +Okay and saw C commands herself because if you go up the tree from saw to the first branching node, you'll find that branching node also dominates herself. +Okay, but saw doesn't C command Florence because the first branching node dominated saw, it's a verb phrase and that doesn't dominate Florence, it's on the wrong branch. +Okay, so the, the reflective pronouns require a C commanding antecedent, antecedent really is just a noun phrase from which it can get its reference like herself back to Florence. +Florence er C commands Florence +Er er yeah I think it does actually erm, yeah cos Florence doesn't dominate Florence and the first branching node dominates Florence dominates Florence erm, +Okay, now I've just used this one example, but if you look at erm each other and one another there is also a reflective pronoun to find that they work in the same way in the appropriate antecedents and it also works for quantifier pronoun relations every girl admires herself which is fine but herself admired every girl doesn't make a whole lot of sense. +So I just picked two examples, but you'll find that they generalize a some interest. +Okay, negative polarity items, that's the anyone case, they require a C commanding trigger, so if you go on to tree T two, no one saw anyone, no one C commands anyone but notice if you reverse that and you had anyone saw no one, with no one in object position, anyone subject position no one would then not C command anyone. +So that would predict what we found, that anyone saw no one is ill-formed. +This also generalizes er the trigger, is basically some kind of negative element. +People, I don't think anybody really knows how to define the notion of trigger properly, but there's always some negative connotation like no one erm and you can say I don't like anyone, but you can't say I like anyone. +Well you can actually, but you can't say I like you any more but you can say I don't like you any more. +Erm, well C commands roughly it's just a noun phrase, which can endow the pronoun with a reference or an interpretation, so if Florence saw herself Florence is a noun phrase and gives herself the reference Florence. +It does work for quantifiers Every doe saw herself and there the interpretation of herself is like in logic. +Every X, X doe X saw herself cos all the does are standing around looking at the lake, seeing their reflections so there is just a quantifier. +Herself works very much like a variable from logic. +Erm +Right, no one itself isn't a negative polarity item +negative polarity item is the one that needs to be licensed by something else. +Given them the negative polarity item I give a damn. +I don't give a damn. +Actually the trouble is the grammatic ones is people deliberately messing about, especially Americans. +How about erm the grim reaper called upon you can't do that the same thing as God smiled upon? +The grim reaper called upon. +Yes, it's different because the +First of all the grim reaper grim reaper's just a name for a fictional being and I think that is a normal +Yeah. +It just means the grim reaper has been called upon probably just means called upon. +since you know what the grim reaper does when he or she calls upon you. +Yeah, but whole thing is an expression and you can change the object. +I think you can change also, expressions +But that doesn't mean +Well, maybe. +Well let's say this, okay I just don't accept it. +I mean let's say this +erm, let's say that erm erm the crow sang his name, was an idiomatic expression meaning er that his time was up, he was, he was, he died, so he sang his name. +Erm, now you couldn't do that with that and that sounds intuitively like the kind of expression that we might have, just because I can't think of one doesn't mean that +But that's a whole sentence +Erm, the grim erm, the, the crow sang John's name, the crow sang James' name do you know what I mean? +And that doesn't sound funny at all. +We must have some like that. +Erm Well that's tricky, because the, the object isn't what goes in here erm it's actually the whole thing. +Yeah. +The crow's name. +But that doesn't destroy I mean as soon as the class is over, I'll think of one, that's the problem, or in the middle of the night +Mm well maybe, I mean to come up with a, a clear example. +It doesn't matter a whole lot, I mean because the er, all it would show is that metaphors needn't take the form of constituents in sentences. +Sorry, not metaphors, idioms, sorry. +It wouldn't show that the verb phrase wasn't a constituent. +And does this er, does this only matter when the subject have an object that, that is ? +Because I mean there's plenty of epigrams like a rolling stone gathers no moss, but that's a subject not a verb, and it's actually saying something totally different, or every time +Er +about the situation and sort of used in a sense about somebody's situation. +Yeah, it's just, just that's the whole sentence. +Yes. +A rolling stone gathers no moss. +But it's and a verb which are idiomatic and are used. +Well the whole, the whole thing is a single idiom in that case. +I just wanna go over the form of the argument erm subject object. +Now, the, there, it appears that there's a whole variety of phenomena er which suggests that sentence divides up in this way and that can be explained on hypothesis we just call such a division a constituent, and then we stipulate that, as certain operations can only apply to constituents. +We suppose that's a rule in our minds and that explains our judgments about for example and proform substitution and so on that's so we define the notion of a constituent plus label it with brackets, and then we make certain predictions about operations that can or can't be performed on. +Okay, now one of the predictions made is that metaphors to, sorry idioms to form into this plus. +That might turn out to be wrong, but that wouldn't impugn the other data the stuff about, er proform substitutions and particularly erm the stuff about reflexive pronouns and polarity items, yeah, that's why it's not, it's not actually crucial. +But of course if, if you start, if you find that the other evidence dissolves as well, then, then you give up eventually. +Yeah, the whole sentence is, is a constituent itself er it and can be a constituent of larger sentences obviously. +It's just that it's the +yeah. +It just can't be, be the, I mean if you think of all the, I mean like say you've got a, a, a sort of er cockney expression for if he's got syphilis might be something like you know Johnny Rotten's kissed him or something you know, there must be things like that, you know, there must be loads of things like that. +You know, there must be loads of things like that. +I mean that just sounds like familiar you know, I mean not that +Ha? +No, Johnny Rotten kissed object. +Yeah, but it's what you're standing in, in well +Yeah. +The subject and verb stay the same the object +subject and verb by themselves which +Well Johnny Rotten kissed +That's it, yeah +Yeah, and then the idea is the verb you plug in there, whatever then you plug in there is fine. +You then get a grammatical sentence and means this person. +syphilis +You're right, it doesn't sound odd, but then the question is why does this all really occur? +It does really occur, I'm sure if it doesn't sound odd, it must occur +If it doesn't sound odd, you'd expect it to occur. +I'm sure it does. +I know that. +Yeah. +how would you +We'll be just like T two with no one and anyone reversed. +Yeah, but +Yeah, but the, the claim is that anyone needs to be licensed by the C commanding trigger which is no one and the point is that erm anyone will then not be C commanded by no one, because no one is too far down the tree. +Erm but notice if you stick an if in, you have if anyone saw no one, then I'll be surprised,that does actually make sense. +If nobody saw anybody yesterday I'd be amazed it's fine because if is the legitimate trigger and it would C command no one. +Okay, erm, just carrying on quickly it's very hard to see how you could account for erm the stuff about reflectives and the polarity items if you didn't have the structures of the kind you get with T one and T two on verb phrases, erm and the reason's just erm you want that kind of a symmetry between say Florence and herself between their positions in the tree and no one and anyone except you can't reverse them, things like that. +If you had less structure as in T three which is a ternary branching tree, instead of binary branching be just an N P B N P, it's real hard to see how you can account for the data. +You can try it of course, you can try and use erm linear ordering and things like to explain the data just turns out often these doesn't work. +So now point seven. +Neither semantics nor logic requires V P structure, a priori, that is there's no particular reason why you'd expect verb phrase structuring in particular from either of those two enterprises, because either could get by with er either the flat structure Florence teased Dougal, that's the structure in T three three separate constituents, or teased Florence Dougal where teased is one constituent and Florence Dougal is another which is the way we most standardly do it calculus and that works fine. +So erm, if you're looking, if you're looking for semantic structure, which is any structure such as and you then provide interpretations for parts of sentences and rules are getting sentence meaning from word meaning in the structure, you can get by with crude structures that don't discriminate very much and the same applies to logic. +When you do syntactics, you get finer structures, more detailed, more complex. +So now, what are the relations between them erm we talked about the logical bit last time, but about semantics and syntactics and point eight. +Well here's an actual hypothesis to make, semantic structure just the syntactic structure. +Why? +Well, A, this would be an economical and elegant way for our knowledge of language to be organized. +Syntactic structure does appear to be suitable for semantic purposes, one can develop compositional semantic rules that apply to syntactic structures. +Basically because in syntax you get all the structure you need for semantics and some more, which doesn't do any harm. +Now, suppose you are designing a language learning and using machine you really wouldn't want to have separate levels of structure for syntax and semantics. +It would be pointless it would be messy it would be inelegant and it would create the problem of the relations between the two, you'd have to have transformations to get you from one to the other. +So the first thing you'd expect on just by the false but enormously appealing principle that the world is simple and elegant, is there is just one level of structure there. +It's a terrible thing actually, because you always pretty much er once they work, once they to the data and people still worry about it, why have rather than some other. +They it's simple, it's nice, it's elegant and it's not an item at all unless you have a further premise that the world itself is simple, nice and elegant and you have no reason to believe that at all, but since that applies across all sides, I think linguistics is in no worse shape. +Okay, secondly and more importantly eight B the idea that syntactic and semantic structure are the same, or rather that semantics just works over the syntactic structure, erm that would help solve the acquisition problem. +Remember the acquisition problem infants acquire language on the basis of minimal evidence, that's called a poverty of stimulus problem, which I talked about a bit in lecture one or two. +It's just it's very very very well, put it this way, children seem to learn language very very very very quickly and they've got very very very little data to go on when they learn the language. +small number of sentences number that they come out understanding and that's rather mysterious So to explain just in general terms, you're interested in describing language in such a way that it's the kindest thing that's easy to learn, rather than hard to learn. +That's the basic idea and the fact that we do actually learn, becomes less mysterious. +So now, if syntactic and semantic structure are the same then both kinds of evidence, both semantic evidence and syntactic evidence will, will constrain the choice of structure. +One of the things the kid's got to do learn his language sentence and in the context he can figure out what the sentence has to mean, like radical interpretation kid, the kid is sitting playing on the floor, a rabbit's bounced by and the mother goes . +Okay. +Erm, the kid's got to figure out if it's going to use that to project the other sentences then it might come across it's got to, it's gotta decompose that into structure. +Right. +That's one of the important tasks. +Well, if there's only one level of structure then evidence about the and evidence of that meaning are both going to bear on that. +the same structure. +If there were two levels of structure, the task would be much much harder. +Okay, so language would be much easier to learn if this hypothesis were true, rather than if it were not true. +Er, for example? +More or less yeah. +Yeah, +Are they a related meaning? +I mean +Yeah +It might just be a case +Yeah +Yeah, obtained, just they're just photographs. +Words that are spelt and sound the same just like and +How about identifying the normal and identifying the philosophy? +Erm what's that going to find the philosophy say? +identify it. +Er, well as in the English you'd probably say if you didn't study philosophy, you'd say were identified as Venus, but it's not the same thing. +Er, yeah. +It's just I mean as philosophy just very standardly takes words from ordinary language gradually gets a technical meaning, er which is different from the original meaning and then when ordinary speakers use it in the original meaning they get told off. +Er, that's I mean, I think if you really, in these cases you have to count them as different words just like I mean maths and physics doesn't mean what maths used to mean in English. +Energy certainly doesn't. +necessary +Necessary er all those things. +It's hard, I mean it's, it's difficult to tell, difficult to decide when the meaning has actually changed it's a notoriously hard problem, which nobody really knows how to solve in the principle way. +Nevertheless sometimes it clearly has and other times it clearly hasn't, so there does seem to be a line there, even if we don't yet know, we certainly have to draw it. +Mm. +Erm I don't know if I mean remember that in order to do any compositional semantic theory, you have to assign structuring. +Remember the little truth theory that we did in lecture two or three, or when you do semantics in logic by swinging two model theories, when you interpret the expressions of a logical language, you have to assign a structure and, er the claim here is just that the natural language, that structure, structure that the semantic interpretation rules apply to, it's just the syntactic structure. +Is that okay? +Yeah, +It does, I mean it's it wasn't clearly formulated until er about nineteen sixty eight I think by Gilbert Harman +Davidson Davidson kind of claims this in semantics in natural languages which I suggested that you read, but Davidson puts the claim the other way round, that is there's no more syntax than that structure needs in semantics and that's just false, that's just false because you're not going to account for all the data I've been talking about, about verb phrases. +Semantic structure? +Er, yeah, it doesn't really er +But Davidson actually makes the claim that you to assign no more structure than what's required by a truth theory just to get the coming out right. +Don't ask me what truth theories. +Okay. +Davidson says, I think he actually claims all you need to do is, is to develop your compositional semantics to get the truth theories coming out right and that's the only notion of structure you need. +He doesn't really, doesn't seem to have room for his idea of having independently motivated syntactic structure I don't know why cos simple idea, but I think +But is it true about the semantic structure where you can say it hasn't got a verb phrase +yeah. +then the other one still has to have the equivalent of a C commanding although it's in a, in a different way. +But you wouldn't have C command, I mean that if you take the first structure in seven, that's just the one in T three. +Okay so now suppose you have Florence as the first noun in T three and herself no do it the other way round, suppose you had herself as the first noun and T three Florence okay then you'd find Florence does C command herself but it shouldn't +Erm, +Oh, right. +Er say if you look in seven you've got er, say the . +Yeah, that's erm actually, there's that's this structure +Okay if you said the first one was saw, +Mm. +and er and the last I believe there was herself then er the middle item has got to be a particular type of item. +Yeah, erm +And it's then related in the same way as the C commanding +er in fact Florence does C command herself here. +Yeah. +So that's er on the other hand, erm it would do if you also, if you'll reverse them herself Florence which would, which would presumably be herself saw Florence structure, but that's +Yeah +but that's ungrammatic . +Yeah, but that's what I'm saying there's +So that you'd have to +you'd, you'd have to, well you don't, you don't because the thing is you want an asymmetrical relation between Florence and herself, because Florence or herself is okay and herself or Florence isn't. +Here it's symmetrical. +Yeah. +Now, you, you could have the linear ordering that's an alternative proposal erm, but then you've actually got erm you've got to come up with a kind of proper account of these structures of how they come about and of the relation and then you've got to check it out against all the other data and all I can say is as it happens, I've tried that and it doesn't work but that's only and we want to find out if you can see that the quite a long way. +So I mean by, by all means don't take any of this for, for granted. +Yeah. +Well you have to +you have to decide if that really is +structure, it may well be that it's a structure structure is the other way round in which case + +Good morning. +Good morning to you. +What happened to sunshine? +I don't know. +You might have arranged it better. +How many lifeboats are you going to land on today sir? +Well we're going to have two. +We have this one and then we're going further south and operate with the other, the second one. +What happens now, now that you are winched down? +Well the aircraft, simply do an orbit, come back around, back into wind and then come winching in under my directions using hand signals. +Th the only thing I mentioned to the crew is to be aware of static, there's a lot of static electricity at the moment. +So er just er let me handle that. +Okay? +Yes, thank you. +Kieran , winch man on the Sumburgh coastguard helicopter, and the rest of the duty crew that morning were winch operator Terry , pilot Norman and copilot Tim . +The honourary medical officer of the Longhope lifeboat is Dr Tony , and he would normally be assisting casualties to be uplifted, but that day he himself was to be winched up from the lifeboat to the helicopter, and once that part of the exercise was completed and he was back, safely on deck, I asked him, How was that? +That was great. +Absolutely +You enjoyed it? +lovely, it was a bit of an anticlimax I thought. +I mean I thought I'd be absolutely frightened out of my mind but erm no. +I think you just have a philosophical attitude, if they're going to drop you, they drop you and that's that's +What did he mean when he's saying the static? +Static electricity. +Yeah. +Well it's like getting out of a car on a hot day and putting your putting your hand on the door, I think. +But I didn't feel anything. +The only thing was noise. +Have you done it before? +I was involved a few years ago in the in the Lance, the rescue er That the lance went ashore on Hoy and er the helicopter there took the casualties of the Lance and dropped +Yeah. +them onto the lifeboat. +Was that a soft landing you had back there ? +No , I got a very sore +Yes. +Dr Tony , honourary medical officer. +Once the exercise was completed satisfactorily, the coastguard helicopter duly saluted us and flew of at speed to rendezvous with the Stromness lifeboat. +The Longhope boat, the David and Elizabeth King, E B, is a solent class self righting lifeboat and has been on station since nineteen seventy. +Once she was safely winched back up the slipway into the lifeboat shed, I spoke to some of the crew. +Firstly, Jack , coxswain, since nineteen seventy. +Are you going to be sorry to see that boat go? +Och well you have to shift with the times, and the new boat which is much faster will be a great help. +Have you been out with the helicopter before? +Yes, quite often. +We've been exercises , this is the third exercise with the helicopter. +When was the last called out? +Not on exercise with the helicopter? +That'll have been the trawler run ashore on on er Pearworth Gareth and we were all come ashore on but it wasn't er . +I think that'll been the last helicopter. +Have you worked with that helicopter that was on exercise today? +Well er everything, Navy helicopter from Lossiemouth, we were out with +The big Seakings? +Seakings. +We're were out with before. +Yes, we're never out on an exercise with the +Jackie , coxswain of the Longhope lifeboat, who was awarded the R N L Is bronze medal for gallantry for his part in the rescue of the crew of the Ross Turn from the Taft Tail of Swona in nineteen seventy three. +The new Longhope lifeboat will be a forty seven foot tyne class, fast slipway launch. +She'll be a tonne lighter in weight but very much faster. +I asked the mechanic, Ian , who'd looked after the David and Elizabeth King, if he'd regret seeing her go? +No I'm I'm really looking forward to getting the new lifeboat, because I think it'll be a great advantage from the station here. +At least we'll have a lot of speed, +The show a big advantage and a bigger speed, er out here. +Have you had any problems with this one over the years? +Oh none at all. +It's gone like a dream, it's er I've had no major problems with it at all. +It's just been a good boat to us. +Really. +But you are going to be sorry to see that one go because you've looked after her for so long. +Ah yes I have looked after it for ever since it was new and er and it was the one that reopened the station after the boat's lost here, but as I say you've got to look forward and I think it's a good idea to to have a new boat here. +Cos it's a good young crew, and everybody's pretty enthusiastic. +Ian , mechanic. +Billy has also been in the crew since the David and Elizabeth King came on station. +And I asked him about that particular morning's exercise with the coastguard helicopter. +Well it's like what most exercises are, it seems like a lot of nonsense but actually when it comes to the crunch, you actually know what's going to happen, you know the the procedures and everything like that. +So that it's it it has certainly got a lot of value an exercise like that, even with entirely good conditions. +How many exercises have you done with the Sumburgh coastguard before? +Oh we've done two or three, we usually do one Well er I wouldn't regularly but probably one every year or you ken something like that. +Today it was winching. +That's just what they usually do for an exercise, there's no much You cannot actually simulate an actual rescue so that's the best you can do. +But the conditions today weren't exactly calm anyway so it was a pretty fair exercise. +Well I suppose but er you can imagine a lot worse than that. +Billy . +And the rest of the crew that morning were Billy , second coxswain, John , assistant mechanic, Jimmy and Vincent . +Also Angus , who was the youngest on board that day. +Well I'm not actually signed up but I'm going to start signing up now as a crew member. +I just go out on exercises now and again, fill in for somebody. +You have a relative though, already on the crew? +Yeah, dad, he's the coxswain. +And I also have a brother that's on the crew. +Have your family always been involved with the lifeboat? +As far as I've been told and remember, Dad's always been on the boat, yeah. +Different boat. +Will you going to on the new one? +Will you be here when it comes, do you think? +Yeah. +By that time hopefully I'll be signed up as a crew member. +Angus . +And my thanks to all connected with the Longhope lifeboat, for my day out. +I spoke later to Jackie , lifeboat secretary, and asked him how many of a crew he had to call on at any time. +We now have fifteen men who have past the medical exam and the board of trade eyesight test and are now fully enrolled lifeboat crew. +There is one or two not quite completed training yet. +There's a great family tradition, obviously, in Longhope as there must be in every Orkney and Shetland lifeboat . +Oh yeah, yeah. +Yeah the the crew seems to evolve. +The the father would be on the boat, and the son would, as a young boy, would come to meet the workers that came back and he begins to help with the ropes and the winching up of the boat and the washing down, and so on, of the boat after she's been on service, and so on . +And as the years go by and the father retires the son comes on to the boat, so it is really a very family thing, the lifeboat service. +What particular memories have you got of this lifeboat? +My memories of this boat would be mainly the the big rescue she did and the Taft Tail of swanal Aberdeen trawler Ross Turn. +Was ashore in a cleft among the rocks there and the the lifeboat had to turn in a position that was just about twice her own length. +The crew were all clinging on to the side of the trawler and the last men off, Billy and John took 'em They got hold of them by one leg and they pulled them off. +And the lifeboat was able to turn and to get safely back out again. +Which was really quite a rescue. +I out there the next day and all that was showing above the water was the mast. +Wee bit at the top of the mast of the trawler. +She has sunk by that time. +My earliest memory of rescued people being landed by the lifeboat would be in the nineteen thirties, see. +Going down with my dad who had been president of the lifeboat here for about fifty years, to meet the lifeboat as come in with survivors, I was just a wee boy at the time but I remember the Icelandic trawler, the Geyser and one of the first to be put ashore off the lifeboat that night, was a wee lassie, and she came across the pier and she came to me, because I was the only kid down there that night. +And er maybe about five six years ago, a parcel of blankets came from Iceland for the Longhope lifeboat, from this same woman, and there had been no contact whatsoever between the time she was rescued and then, which was amazing. +Have you heard from her since then? +Never never heard from her at all since then. +But it is the R N L I it's something like a huge club because er go where you like, you're always received well among the fishermen and the shipping people. +And so I've quite often been in Stromness and somebody said to me, how are you getting home tonight? +You see? +As much as to say, well if you need a lift home, just let me know. +So it is It's a marvellous thing really, the R N L I. + +I haven't had time to get it up on the machine to change again quickly but I've had a quick look at the situation with regard to the five per cent increase. +Yeah. +So the saving that we were going to make them, by reducing five per cent but increasing the lancer machine bearings and bumping this standard cost one up to well as it turned out, seventeen per cent margin. +Yeah? +Mhm. +Would would ta make that three thousand pounds. +Which is the one we've just been talking about. +Yeah. +And so we were going up from that price to that price. +That's what I wanted to do. +That's what you wanted to do, you hadn't discussed these with them. +I've mentioned it to him and what he's saying is come back with a firm proposal. +Obviously what happened then this was before +This is because this was the dead stock that we sent him. +The tools I wanted to get rid of. +Okay. +Yeah. +It's changed really now because of the fact we pulled +Yeah. +we've got more of a leverage so we +Yeah. +need to re-look at how we Because he's mentioned straight away, as soon as he was in the mire +Right. +well you know, the five per cent reduction you know, don't worry about that at the minute and and all this sort of thing so +Right yeah. +it it does need another +Yeah. +looking at. +Basically what if we do increase to that price. +Yeah. +On the machine build that he's given me for this year, of which that is an example. +The two arrow machines use it and there's a hundred and two hundred and nine machines altogether +Yeah. +Mill which will have three of these one each machine. +six hundred bearings pairs. +Six hundred and thirty seven to be precise +Right. +yes. +Well the difference is about six hundred and seventy two pounds. +You mean the increase in prices. +Yes that's how much extra it'll cost him. +Yeah. +Er we've run up a cost of two hundred and fifty quid getting . +And the rest and the rest . +Well this is this is what the point +Yeah. +I think now's the time. +I want to try and get it done, bearing in mind Elaine's going to have to have the baby on Friday if she hasn't had it before. +Yeah. +So will more than likely be off next week, but I do want to try and get something done with this and some of the other accounts, I want to try and get them out the way before I +Right. +. +Now what's the the how have you calculated the five per cent erm reduction? +Is th is that because all +Yeah. +these are down five per ce No that's not it. +That's down five, that's dow er that's up +That's up. +because it's the lancer machine. +That one's up because it's the lancer machine. +It's just those two that'll have gone down by five per cent which are the sabre machine bearings. +Right. +Okay? +So what's that five per cent negative worth to us? +Well what I what I did here, to work it out so I could come up to some sort of value, is I said I haven't had time to chuck these back on the screen yet to start again +Yeah. +but this is where it got to when we talked about it last time. +Er is I'd looked at the using their machine build which I've built in , +Yeah. +on the sabre range, the lancers and the arrows, +Yeah. +it would mean that is the price that they would sell at the nineteen ninety four price volume. +And that's the price up to that one. +Yeah that's it, the first five lines. +So you're going for a five six to five nine, thirteen nine to fourteen six, thirteen seven to fourteen five. +So that that's the saving effect, the difference between those two is the saving . +Yeah, that is the saving that they would have made on each of those builds . +So we're talking there about +I'll I'll do it on the computer but +Savings savings of whatever this is, it's three hundred erm that's er seven hundred, that's a thousand . +Er thirteen seven that's eight hundred, that's eighteen hundred. +That's a big one isn't it. +About fifteen hundred. +Er that's three thousand three hundred +forty eight machines you see. +Right, so another sixteen hundred there. +So so that's four or five thousand pounds that we're giving to them. +Right and and by putting these prices up on the lancer and that I was actually clawing a couple of thousand pound back off them. +And that's I was trying to put myself in the position of before. +Still offering them a three thousand pound saving. +Yeah. +But helping our spread if you know what I mean. +Yeah? +Right. +Now it's a different ball game because we I think we have an opportunity to maintain that price for a while. +I mean i it's it's where we feel we need to make the emphasis. +This is based on full full year isn't it. +Yeah. +Erm one of the things that er would be nice to end up with is a price on the books which is the higher price. +Yeah. +So that the price we want to end up with on the books is is +Mhm. +that one, that one, that one +Yeah. +that one and that one. +Yeah, now well this is +That one e erm I mean I'm a I was just I I said twenty pound O six, it was a quick calculation, it ends up at seventeen per cent margin. +Erm you see it's it's balancing that between the fact that we don't +Mm. +But we're s we're gonna be charging it approximately twice as much as would. +But we've helped him. +And I think we've got +But but but we're only charging twice as much as would erm because are providing a standard bearing. +Er well selected for their standards that we think is the only way they could do it. +Yeah. +Although, understanding the way, volume manufacture and I would say they've probably if they've got similar production facilities, got a very good chance of producing good stuff anyway. +Along the lines of , there's a very good probability they'll just take +Mm. +it straight off the line knowing that it's coming in. +We we haven't got as precision. +So what's the advantage of of our product over theirs. +Nothing really. +Think of one. +Well er . +There must be some dimensions that have been more thoroughly checked than than er +Well no because I c I can't say exactly how 's applying their product. +They could be doing it on a Yes well ninety per cent of them will be P five. +They could be selecting them off the +Yeah. +line. +Yeah if they if their churning out the stock that tu tend to churn out, I mean I go along for an enquiry for a few and find they've got thousands in stock. +You know. +And you think, Bloody hell, well I'm not surprised they can guarantee getting P fives. +If I had all them to choose from, I could guarantee it. +I don't know how they're achieving the price. +I mean they're they're s they were something like twelve quid a pair. +Yeah? +Now John says he he can only imagine that they're selecting them out. +But then again, John's a precision man. +Yeah. +Yeah? +So you know, coming to terms with how manage to do what they do, you can see it's probably actually not too bad a price to charge when they can get them cheaper . +Yeah yeah yeah yeah. +But but we also know that if er select from the end of the line of standard production. +They don't select on every feature, they only select on some. +Don't they? +No not necessarily they could er they could check for all tolerances +And I don't know how they do it. +This is it I don't know how they do it. +It's only dimensional tolerances don't forget. +They don't have to test them or anything. +Well according to the the P Thanks Carol, the the the P five specs no doesn't involve noise testing. +No it's purely dimensional. +The thing is,the machine tool industry or super precision requirements be become use and take for granted a noise specification, the fact that it must run quietly. +But you can get P +Right well that's something that's something that you've got to you've got to differentiate. +Mm. +Ours are noise tested correct? +Yeah. +P five does not require a noise test. +No. +Correct? +Yeah. +Right so what you're getting from us is a +noise tested bearing. +Right okay. +Secondly er +We guarantee P five. +We we are we're guaranteeing P five plus a noise level. +Yeah. +So you're actually getting something that you terribly badly need +I put the seed of doubt into Steve's mind about the fact that I could not say that er bearings could be guaranteed P five at that price. +I said, the way they're picking them out, I couldn't say that they can guarantee every bearing. +Right and and what's the noise test that we put ours through, is that three dimensional noise testing there frequencies and and so on and +Yeah the normal . +Right, so so what we're doing is a noise test to super precision +Yeah. +limits. +Yeah. +Right is there anything else like that pardon me, oh dear . +Is there anything else like that which erm er which we do that they may not do. +Not really. +Cage it'd be interesting to find out what cage material they're supplying. +What cage material are you supplying? +I've a feeling B E T N. +B E T N. +Yeah so it's the er cage. +the buttress type thing. +Yeah . +Er okay, so you've got your quiet noise running. +Quiet noise . +Be sure about the cage. +Yeah, it's the one, I'm not so sure what they would supply you see. +Possibly nylon. +They do tend to have single nylon that's a single strip that just folds round. +They do a lot of that support frames. +Do they? +Yeah, a single strip that they actually just feed into the ring and then put the balls in. +So it's not actually a solid ring, it's n nylon thing which sits in. +Oh yeah they use that f in in the in the P two class product +they have some of those in. +Japanese do it as well. +they works, I mean you know, our point is we always you know, we've got the guarantee with the cage and that. +But er +Well okay so so you're going to you're going to erm emphasize the er the fact that what we are supplying is a noise tested +Mhm. +P five bearing . +Yeah. +You're going to emphasize the fact that our cage of course is erm a buttress cage +Mhm. +er out of er Polyamide six six. +Yeah. +Is it still polyamide sixty six, not . +I don't think it's changed yet. +Erm +Our stocks over there would still be that anyway. +And er er and and that that these have er substantial advantages for them and and don't know but but there's got to be an element of doubt. +Yeah yeah. +Erm and although they may say they're noise tested, erm I think you've gotta question whether they're noise tested to the level. +And you've seen our facilities here. +Er and and you know how +Yeah. +how very very careful we are. +Mm. +So what you're what you can be sure of getting from us is absolutely on line and of course you're getting a service . +Right. +Erm e mainly it's where do I put the emphasis. +I know we've got a lever now, yeah, we're gonna get rid of this in other words, Steve's gonna give us something for it. +Yeah. +Yeah, it's identifying where we want to get it. +Now okay, I know what you mean by saying yes, you want to get the higher price everywhere. +But if we took the highest price of everything then we're making thousands and thousands and thousands. +Now +Yeah well presumably we're reversing this position. +That's right, we've got to balance that with the fact that we did promise them a decrease, but we've got the erm leverage of having helped them. +So if we've got +Well hang on hang on, hang on. +I'll tell you what we'll do. +I'll tell you what we'll do. +Yeah. +How about we leave the price as it is. +We'll we'll we'll leave no no we'll no no we'll leave these these prices here which we were gonna reduce, we're gonna +Yeah. +leave them as they are. +Right. +But we will give them a five per cent reduction on those prices wh for deliveries between March and September. +So we're giving em it for six months. +We're giving it for six months. +. +That's worth two and a half thousand quid. +Yeah. +Mm. +Er June to December he'll say. +Alright June to December but that's Yeah +Just easier you see, cos he'll say the then for when we do a price increase next time. +Cos if you go back up in September, it's higher for the increase next January. +Well that's exactly right. +. +But but at +Yeah okay but at least we've got the price on the table. +Maybe we don't increase it next January. +Mm. +Maybe we leave it where it is, but at least that price is on the table. +Right. +Whereas anything else we do, we've got to fight ou we've got to claw our way back to that . +I'll tell you what then, we've got the two options,we've got the one area of this five per cent where +Yeah. +we don't want to give em it for the whole year. +Yeah. +And I've got the standard cost here I need to get up. +Right. +Right, now erm I want to get that up first. +Yeah. +I want to make profit on one size rather than er +Yeah. +Yeah, keep it on others. +Yeah. +So how about if I look at the six monthly saving, +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah. +I look at what that is in value, about two and a half thousand, I'll look at this one, +Yeah. +I'll put a reasonable price in there, I see what that's gonn + +I haven't managed to escape there, I'm glad just to get on the pitch. +Now erm, I haven't been to a match lately, but these pictures I've seen, there's still all these fences around to stop people doing that. +Erm, what is the situation in our own stadiums? +Well we don't have fences,but erm, we are the regulatory authority but the County Council are the regulatory authority for the sports venues. +The Fire Service have the delegated authority for them and the situation in our local sports events is quite adequate. +There's work that needs to be done, in most of the major sports grounds, but that's proceeding and there's, if you can imagine that there's, in Shrewsbury for example, a lot of the work which we would want to be done on the grounds have been less than enthusiastic about doing, because they're likely not to be there for very long. +But, and I have no concerns about sports ground sale, we've regulated the numbers because they had some concerns about the and that, that itself has caused 's fellow supporters some problems, but we've actually restricted the number of people who can use the sports ground. +Right, so they're game heavy you think? +I wonder if it's free to them +Only people that the gate can know the christian names of are allowed in. +I have here a comments that there wasn't any point in really restricting the numbers. +I think they'd have three now as well as David. +Councillor ? +I'll, I was just going to say, Chairman, I, I too am very concerned really about the number of premises where it is advisory to the District Councils, or advisory to . +Bearing in mind the number of private nursing homes that spring up and erm, er, I mean the sort of privately run places er, presumably the local authorities have to give them a licence to run, but is there no way that it, can the Fire Service, can our officers go and make an inspection? +Clearly they have no power to do so, even if somebody asks them to, somebody from outside for instance, erm, and, and also when they do get a fire certificate, is there a display for it? +Or stuck in the back of an office, or, or could they have something sort of glossy like the half kingdom Tourist Board stars, that they can put on their windows,to let people know that at least that particular nursing home or whatever establishment it is, has been duly inspected by our Fire Services? +I mean, otherwise one assumes simply that people don't know. +Mm, well th the answer to the first question is that, no we don't have any authority to enter premises like that, where we haven't been invited unless somebody has identified a potentially dangerous condition. +Section ten of the Fire Precautions Act gives me the power to inspect any premises where we believe there is a threat to life, other than domestic premises. +And there are certain circumstances in which we can do that. +It also gives me the power to prohibit or restrict the use of those premises until those conditions are alleviated. +In that document, there is a very strong reference to the fact that that power should be either restrictive or removed and that there should be a right of appeal against it, which would effectively prevent us from using it. +In terms of nursing homes, we don't issue fire certificates anyway, we only issue certificates to offices, shops, building premises because they were under the Act, Hotels and Factories. +So a nursing home, hospital and school, residential or otherwise, is never certificated, and any advice that we give is exactly that. +It's not mandatory. +That surely is is, is of quite concern to people in some way registering whether a place is considered safe or not. +It's through Social Services or the Area Health Authority. +That is there responsibility? +To keep the place from the Fire Authority as from others. +Yes, mm +Yes, but they've got to have a, you, you've got to have a, you've got +Leaving, leaving, leaving aside their er,ob sorry Chairman. +Yes, I'll come back to you, sorry. +just mention what I've heard, the only statutory job he could do, is apply his licence in . +Is the Fire Officer given every individual case where they apply for a licence over an old people's home, and er, this sort of thing? +Oh yes. +And can't you keep it, keep the Fire Officer when the home's licence er, if they don't carry out statutory duties as required? +We, we, we, I suppose it'd be like two levels, that in the majority of cases we could say we recommend that you do not issue a licence. +Social Services are really a help, we could choose to ignore that, I have to say that I'm not aware of that happening, and I think it's very unlikely. +Because it would be a very dangerous thing for someone to do. +The other element is that the county's are so dangerous, and that's actually quite unusual, they're so dangerous that we consider they present a risk and it has to be me that considers it presents a risk to life, and I can either restrict the use of premises, but I can prohibit the use entirely. +But as I say, this says that,an that's a relatively new and certainly draconian power, and it's recommended in this document that it's removed. +Please +Yes Colonel +Is this, all these wonderful protection of animals, dogs and horses and so on, and pet shops and so on , do, does the Chief Fire Officer think in his local knowledge, that most of these have been inspected by his officers, or does he get the feeling there, that sometimes the district councils are not asking for these inspections? +It varies a great deal depending on the district council. +What I have to say really, is that most of those premises present very little risk at all, and, and I think that any change in the implementation of fire safety legislation should be based in prioritization. +Now that's something that's difficult for us to do, because the more dangerous, the more erm, the premises should present the greatest life risk, are not necessarily the ones over which we have strict legislative control. +I mean for example hospitals and nursing homes, we have a purely tenuous control over, whereas we have a very rigid control over a signal box on a railway. +Now a signal box on a railway presents a fairly limited risk to life and a nursing home presents a fairly dramatic risk. +Yes Jim, or +Chairman, if, if someone doesn't come under the regulations and is operating a business or something of that sort,is there the facility for that body, either the management body or the business to ask voluntarily for you to inspect, with a view to issue a, er, erm, a certificate er, erm of er, safety? +There's no +If anybody wants a fire certificate and we had a recent case where a notable local solicitor asked us to issue a fire certificate and we refused, because his premises does not require one, or did not at that point require a fire certificate. +Then he subsequently moved one person from the ground floor onto the first floor, which meant that he did require a fire certificate. +But if it's not required by law, then I cannot issue, and if people ask for advice we are obliged under Fire Services, the Fire Services Act to give that advice, but what I'm really saying is that with the, the pressure of work on the Fire Safety Department, it's likely that if it's a fairly low risk to life, we'll never get round to it, and that's the honest truth. +That's on your statutory requirement? +Yes +So what you're saying is, that if people er, if people's consciences state I ought to try and do this, but I'm not required by statute to do, the chances is that A, that you, you can't do it anyway, but B you wouldn't have the facilities to do it anyway, as well. +We, we, we will normally get round to people. +We do inspect . +But we probably don't inspect and give advice to people who'd like us to, because they're not a priority, and we don't have the resources to do that. +A lot of interesting points come out there, haven't they? +Cap +If, if, if I could summarize, if you could bear with me by saying that, there is no embracing legislation which covers fire safety, and there is no legislation which actually prioritizes it. +What we have is picking up a ragbag of stable door legislation, that came out of other Acts, and that's why we have offices, shops and railway premises from the Oswald Acts which were neatly tucked in the back of Oswald's Act. +Hotels which were in the first days of making order, and factories which came from the old Factories Act. +And the cost, or the potential cost of designating particular, like hospitals and similar premises is so prohibitive that the government has chosen never to implement the designating orders for them. +And I hasten to say it, governments of all persuasions assume it must be being done. +Someone move the recommendation? +I will +Yes +Five point seven, paper J, Fire and Rescue Service Training. +Different board is the outcome of the P A G inspection? +Yes, it seems it +I don't know, Mr Chairman, I think you've always been very keen on this trend and supported it fully. +And, I, I will support this number seven, seven with recommendations. +Thank you there +We are moving on reasonably well on this issue. +Yes, well we've got to +Reasonably well, yes, reasonably well +Then I hesitate to say that there's probably a more complex issue now even than the Fire Station, erm,the figures which are given incidentally are the original estimate there, because that was what was available to us at the time. +They have now been varied slightly but they make very little difference. +A question that's already been asked of me, on appendix C, up at employee at the largest single figure there is a hundred and thirty seven thousand eight hundred. +That's not a way of fudging some other cost, the retained fire fighters are recompensed when we provide training for them, because they normally have to lose work or whatever. +They are very, very expensive to train because of that. +We train whole-time fire fighters cheaply, but we pay the retained people compensation for loss of earnings. +That figure is the majority, the majority of that figure is compensation for loss of earnings. +That's the trouble, you get cheap service from retained personnel, but they're incredibly expensive to train. +But absolutely essential. +That's the only time you pay loss of earnings? +Yes +If they've taken off for a fire two days or something? +They're going to get paid then. +We pay them for attending fires. +The only other time they're paid compensation for loss of earnings, is when they're sick as a result of an injury received on duty, you know Fire Brigade duty. +Well this recommendation's been moved, seconded? +Yes +Five point eight, Emergency Planning Are you going to speak on it or not? +The recommendation's here. +Chair, here. +We move +There is one thing, and I think I did take it with you, erm, Mr Chairman, I'm with the erm, I've forgotten what the question on, corporational liberties, the thing that is concentrating many of our minds quite some , but the er, would, would the Chief Fire Officer like to? +Yes, well he s he did take it up with me as a, er, I mean you did take it up +I didn't complain, I didn't complain, I suggested it. +No, but what, what I'm, what I mean, what I said such as emergency services. +Now the emergency services are police, fire, and erm, and ambulance. +There's a fourth one actually, but everyone knows who they are +So those do cover the police. +I mean, if the police and the ambulance service. +Could, could that just be underlined perhaps in, by rephrasing it slightly to emphasise that, because I, I think that +I think we all know what emergency services are +We, we know but +You don't, I see +we, we do, but there's no harm, in view of our knowledge and experiences just to put that phraseology in a little bit bolder. +I, I, I, I think Mr Chairman what I, I think I explained to you what my concern was, that we have cases where there's a serious road accident, and erm, and the road is stopped, we have no real authority to turn traffic or divert traffic, but the, the police are the only ones that can, and if we want to get down in, in, into an emergency very quickly. +I, I mean it's only by the good will of the police that we can get down there and that,, this is, this is my concern Mr Chairman, in, in theory what I would like, if there was a serious emergency, you'd get a senior officer in here straight away, and I mean he would negate to the police, we have no authority over them, only cooperate with the police. +And that's my concern. +Well I, I +I, I, I mean they're, you, you, I mean they're very good, but they do, er a lot are imperfect, a law unto. +Oh, oh, I think all it wants is that paragraph rephrasing and with more strongly emphasis but, on the lines on with that. +That's all I think Chairman, I don't suppose that er, you'll disagree with that will you? +Well I, I wouldn't disagree with it, but I, but I, the description is perfectly plain to ensure that effective arrangements are established from liaison between the various departments of the County Council and the appropriate organizations such as the emergency services . +I know what the emergency service is, I'm sure everybody else does. +There's a fourth one that keeps cropping up on television but I mean we don't take that into consideration. +But it's just police, fire and ambulance services, those are the emergency services, +I can't see what, what the objection is to me making the paragraph stronger. +No and I can't see wh no well I, we made it, I'm not against making it stronger, but I can't understand why this suggestion has been made. +Well because of past experiences, Chairman, that's all. +Let's make it strong I'm not criticising anybody, just make it stronger. +Chairman, I, I, I'm really confused now, I mean they've, they've got me, they've got me talking about semantics here which is ridiculous. +What we're talking about is the emergency services that sh that responds to the needs of those who are in difficulty or in distress. +That's what we're doing and I can't see anything here that prevents er, total cooperation between A the police, B the ambulance service and C the fire services. +I agree with you entirely. +I think this is er, semantics, and simple nitpicking. +The police have never, I mean the Fire Officer will tell me, has there ever been an occasion when the police have not cooperated with the Fire Service in an emergency situation? +No +No, no there's always room for improvement in liaison +Come on we're talking about the job, the job description, really they're there to please, er, er, this is written by one, one man and er, or one woman, and we're just saying that the wording could be improved in that one little phraseology, that's all. +On the job description. +It was put together by, it was put together by the Chief Fire Officer and the Chief Executive er, not just the Chief Fire Officer. +Right. +I'm saying it could be improved, I'm sorry. +Yes Colonel. +Er, most officers would have accepted it and moved on to the next subject. +Paragraph two was current solution to see the sort the place where the advertisers as widely as possible, presumably based on the job description . +Here, there's no salaries attached to it at the moment. +Erm, do we know how big the department's going to be, because that governs the salary? +Where are we in relation to the sort of catch twenty two situation on this? +The, the salary is stated +I, I'd rather finish with the other question, or, or the made by the Major in the press question, are you, do you want to follow up the, I mean, have a vote on this if you want to? +No +Or is, or do you think the wording is suitable, or do you not? +The wording's suitable. +Yes +I, I, I'm dead easy, I mean really it's a bit pedantic being pathetic. +Leave it as it is, leave it as it is +Leave as it is, and move on. +Right now,c yes sorry, well we'll go back now. +The, the post is currently graded at P O five, not P O six. +After the exclusion of the public. +Can we discuss after the exclusion of the public. +Thank you sir. +Yes +Clearly er, it's er, again in, in paragraph four, under future budget of er, the services is going to be critical, if you've seen the last couple of years that are defined in the pay, and that's going to continue. +As far as the short-term is concerned, er, part of the budget package in the current year, er, the retirement and the, the now proposal was to, to help up the side as regards that. +Now it's referred in item one of the introductory paragraph, in the introduction about additional funding, and I just wonder where is the total for this additional funding? +Is it from within the Public Protection Committee's overall budget, or is from elsewhere? +If so, no. +Well if we're going to start to go into funding, I'd rather this went into the pink paper session, and that we have our Chief Executives down here to explain that situation. +I don't want to discuss this in open committee. +Agreed? +Yes. +We'll put it as the last item. +You have the situation +Personnel, five, point one, sorry, five point one three is that right, so +Er, five point nine I think Chair. +Five point nine, optimistic, I'm getting terrible these days. +Just a little bit optimistic,straight through to that, +Yes, avoiding, oh yes, yes, yes, sorry, sorry. +Avoiding, now What Future for Local Emergency Planning, National Conference. +Now, I'm, I might have been remiss on this, but we had to do this in a hurry, erm, to get names in, and, but it's been suggested by erm, the leader of the er, Conservative group on, on this Committee, that erm, a, a, member from each should, major group should go, and er, I'm quite, I'm quite inordinate, in favour of this, if we can get erm, bookings there now. +I'm, you know +My feeling is Mr Chairman, it is an unpolitical er, erm, we're going +Oh yes, yes +into a new ground and, and er, I think it would be very useful if, if we +yes, yes, I'm quite happy, providing we can get the erm +Erm, I think I, yes Chairman, if, if, if you're prepared to attend that if you're saying that +Providing that they're not all taken . +No well that's, that's impractical and all, but +You know it's, yes, yes. +I don't know where it is. +Okay are you all agreed? +Yes, agreed. +Are you going? +Who's on transport? +I don't believe this gentleman. +We'll check, we'll find out before the end of the meeting. +Thank you for our er, +I've got a better one than those +Five point one oh, annual inspection, am I right now? +Yes, ten +We know that Mr Chairman. +Five point ten, yes. +Erm, you're all aware of that? +Five point eleven, Fire Safety Week, well that's gone past. +It's quite useful +We played on a different part +Five point one, twelve, Brigade Festival at Cowes, an absolutely superb evening in my opinion, but somebody said it was bloody awful. +Er, +Well I think it was a marvellous evening. +I think it was +I can think of one c comment Chairman. +The, they ran out of er, of carol sheets. +We didn't expect c +It,i I had the initiative in getting a prayer book, er, er, a hymn book from the back which er, after some concentration with the index or something, to er +If you would pardon me on the sheet , it's a shame Mr 's not here, because that was his decision, because of the imposed cut in stationery from last year, we ran out of it +Come on, come on +Good for him. +So he was sulking in a corner was he? +Yes. +Another criticism that I had was that it was far, far too elaborate and expensive programme, I thought it was a very cheap one. +We printed it ourselves, +Yes, yes +The first one, was +Yes, yes, Councillor . +In spite of a lack of er, sort of er, carol sheets for, for some of us, it really was, as you say, a very enjoyable evening, and I was particularly erm, keen on the, the introduction of Saint Nicolas, and it certainly got smaller children, I think it was er, fantastic, and I certainly haven't enjoyed so er, I'll be back +We diddled them out of er, Christmas presents which, which surprised me. +But some of the children there erm, somebody must have been very, very, optimistic because we put a lot, a lot of presents in there, but anyway I think it was a superb night, and, and, and the meeting of er, to get together in the fire station afterwards, quite, in the Price Room was very good. +Okay. +Five point one three, five thirteen, Fire Brigade Long Service and Public Medals Ceremony. +Once again a very enjoyable evening, erm, I pushed into something that er, I don't think she really wanted to do initially, but she thoroughly enjoyed it at the end. +Chairman, she did it er, erm, very nicely,from the local +That's right, that's right. +The ladies concerned I think were very pleased er, erm, I do I think it's a very good idea, erm, to give a wife's medal and er, with all the medals, and we ought to provide money for them the amount of waiting about they have to do +A very good evening. +and they never know when +Yes. +It was a nice, nice gesture. +A well organized evening. +And where the beer did agree eventually, I mean under slight pressure. +There's a photograph of her,and I'm quite sure we can give Joan to give to Vera one of those. +Yes, yes thank you. +I, I would like to see erm, I don't know whether this is done, but erm, when the official photographs are taken, they're done by erm, newspaper area, so that you get of the Lord Lieutenant, the Chief Officer, and the, the man from that area, and that is sent to the local paper, whether, ah +in fact the local paper actually took photographs on that basis, and they grouped them by +Yes, but erm, but Chairman, er, I don't think I should come up and make myself clear, some local papers were not represented there. +Could they in future be sent? +Could the photograph, the fire, the fire fighter probably won't think of it, could, could we think it for him, or her. +Yes, we're lucky with the photographer actually, he's not a fire fighter, er, +He is now +He is now, okay. +Er, five fourteen, paper L. +Don has erm, been seconded to the Home Office for a period of two years. +So I think we ought to congratulate him on that. +Yes +Hear, hear. +And the other is the retirement of er, Divisional Officer . +Could we just +Twenty nine year service is a long time. +can I be as could we be associated with that? +Oh yes, well I, this is a Committee I'm talking about, not, not just myself, the whole Committee. +Erm, when I speak, I speak on behalf of the whole Committee. +A letter will be written to both on that? +Yes, oh yes, yes. +Okay. +Chair, in respect of what erm, it's obviously it's er, good for the Authority that Mr is er, obviously , but what will happen to his post, right away, and what, will there be someone employed to actually fill in, I know there will probably be some moving up er,? +Yes, we're interviewing so we're interviewing on Friday for somebody to fill that post. +On the dates that you've anticipated if Mr comes back by that time we'll be able to absorb the post, but it's likely that he may move on from this, because it's a fairly substantial move up. +In his next, next work when he leaves here he's going to be the Fire Service at the Houses of Parliament, and I'm serious, that will be one of his first major jobs. +Not to mention things as trivial as Windsor Castle, and so forth. +You don't sail that far down +Will they listen to him, I hope. +You're next authority. +Chairman, he won't have to, it's like this, he won't have to worry as they did when the televisions which caused the last fire in the House of Commons, I mean, set fire to them and er, caused that one. +It's quite er, it's quite a recommendation to de Brigade though isn't it Mr Chairman? +And quite an honour to the brigade. +Pardon? +It's very prestigious, it's very prestigious. +Yes, and I think I thought of a personal note that, because we do get some good, good appointments. +As bad as we are. +Okay we'll move on. +No, I, I, I think, it is well done. +Six, Quarterly Report of Chief Trading Standards erm, paper marked M. +Yes +Do you want to s enlarge on it Mr ? +No +No, no +No you're alright Chairman. +Can we note this Mr Chairman? +There's quite a lot of useful information in here. +I hope you've all read it. +Yes +I have, item, paragraph one, Mr Chairman, is right to do with the work that has to be done. +Pardon? +Pardon? +Item one on M, Mr Chairman, the right of you with the amount of work that has to be done, and the amount of they're asked for +Oh yes, yes okay. +in growing demand or +Six point two, deregulation. +Chairman, if I could just er, erm, some words that aren't included in this pa paper, I understand that the Deregulation Bill is published on the eighteenth erm, and presented to Parliament for the first reading, erm, it's still far from clear what's going to be said in it, but erm, it's still widely expected that in fact, on major contentious issues will in fact be the suggestion that sections of Acts of Parliament will, could be revealed by ministerial order rather than go through the parliamentary process again. +So it's an important issue er, of principle. +The aspect to it is, as I've made clear in, in the, the report I hope,th they'd want to treat each erm, one that comes out of government on it's me merits. +Er, I make the point I think that, erm, we should oppose the er, Deregulation Bill if it's based on providing deregulation by Ministers, because I think that's a constitutional point that is of great import, but the, the rest of it erm, are really sets of principles that I hope you'd agree to, subject to amen amendment and dis discussion, because the information that we got is that the consultation period is going to be very tight indeed, and that it might not be able to go through the normal committee procedures in order to put things through erm, with er, proposals in that, er, in that respect. +If they're relatively technical, then I, then I'd be grateful if they can be left to the officers, but obviously if there's anything that erm, is political in anyway, big P or small P, then at least we can get in touch with the er, P A G, and if necessary call a meeting in respect Chair. +But things are going to move on apace, and we need to, a set of principles the officers can work to, and I've put these down as a broad list, erm, for your consideration. +I propose that Mr Chairman. +All in agreement, +Yes +to the recommendations. +Yes +Paper O, +That's purely for information Chairman. +Paper P, genetically modified foods. +I think the case is here is that er could have serious effects. +That, er, Chairman, if I could say the thing that bothers me here is that, it always has done about food, is that we should be keeping up to date with information, all these decisions and all this advice. +That seems to me a basic requirement of er, of all the sale of food. +Er, it's been coming in gradually over the years, but there's been an awful lot of, of er, resistance by some manufacturers on what they say on their labels, and what they say about what they're selling us, and er, if they're gonna do this, and I'm getting a, a slight suspicion, and I think Mr is, that, that it's got to be done eventually, and we, we have to be able, as a buying public, to understand exactly what we're buying before we actually get it home. +A chance to read, and be informed as to what we're buying when we buy it. +Chairman, it's always been this Committee's policy over the twenty years, the twenty odd years that I've been here, back here ru runner, that erm, so far as the food side is concerned, er, we should be, our policy should be based on the information, the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, and letting people make up their own minds. +It's not been for us to tell people what they should or shouldn't eat or do anything with, because the, in, in one respect that's a nann nannying attitude from er, whether it's the legislators saying we're not going to approve the right legislation so that you have that information, but on the other hand by manufacturers and others saying you trust us. +Well, in the cases we've taken over the odd twenty years against some of the biggest companies in the world indicate that that isn't the er, position. +So, as far as the, the erm, erm,report is concerned er, if I've got to make a recommendation, because obviously people have got different views on this one, it would be in fact that we go for total er, information so that people can make up their own minds, and if, and it might be wrong, but they can exercise their own prejudices. +And if they want to exercise those prejudices that's a matter for them. +Erm, so that, that's the line that er, from a personal point of view I would erm, I would take, but I would obviously want members' views on that one. +The other one, could I just correct something on the last line of er, comment at the bottom of the, bottom of page two. +It says stock lives, it should be stock lines. +But they are also trying to include the stock live aren't they, in some cases? +Not their lives, +No, it talks about the life as it's lying in store for instance. +Yes, oh yes, yes indeed. +Yes +Anybody wish to speak or are you, do you accept the recommendations? +A question if I may? +In the er, appendix attached +Yes +er, there's talk about the er, government waiting for the recommendations from the Food Advisory Committee, when are they due? +It's come out too, Chairman, that erm, there's been an, they dis they discussed that the minutes came out, and erm, what the Committee decided shortly was, the Committee felt strongly that, if the criteria for labelling were met, the requirement for labelling declaration should be a statutory one. +They did not consider that this could be satisfactorily achieved by other means, such as non-statutory guid such as non-statutory guidelines. +Er, based on the evidence which the public consultation produced the Committee considered that the primary concern of consumers was to be able to identify when a gene likely to be a cause of concern to a significant proportion of the population was present in foodstuff. +This was reflected in the criteria which the Committee recommended should trigger a labelling declaration. +As far as the form of labelling was concerned they believed that what was required was a simple declaration such as contains copies of X genes, in single ingredient foods and foods sold loose, they believe a declaration should form part of or accompanying the name under which food is offered for sale. +For pre-packed foods which contain ingredients that contain copied genes, it recommended that a statement should be required to accompany the name of the ingredient in a list of ingredients. +If a copied gene is present in an ingredient which was under current rules, it did not need to be listed, the declaration about its presence should nevertheless be made either in the ingredients list or next to the name of the er, food . +And they went on then to consider lack of understanding of consumers about G M technology as a whole, and made recommendations for erm, er, better labelling, and for a erm, information campaign to be launched as well. +But they didn't actually recommend that it should be statutory labelling +Yes. +The point I'd make, is that the difficulty of enforcement, in that respect. +It's, it's one thing legislating, it's a completely different ball game when you are, erm, trying to enfor enforce it, and especially when you're trying to enforce it with ingredients imported from abroad. +Well, when I say abroad, I mean from the E C as well. +Erm, you can look after your own factories in this country, and you source ingredients, but you won't be able to do that for anything coming ov coming overseas. +And the major manufacturers erm, there is a major trade in ingredients, between the multi-nationals as they pass things across. +So the theory might not well work out in prac practice. +But I honestly can't come up with any solution in that respect, because er, until you've got er multi-national enforcement agencies which no politician is going to agree to, erm, you're not going to solve the pro pro problem there. +And if they think that it suits them to shift a factory to the Philippines because there won't be an inspection there, that's what they'll do. +Can you note this Mr Chairman? +That's depressing isn't it really? +Very, but there you go. +That's life, but we do what we can. +And it's a statutory obligation in this country and that's really what you know. +Because we can't just accept that, that manufacturers will look after it for us, because as you've, already said by the Chief, they'll move the factory where it +I mean, you can even get a situation Chairman, where you'll get some of the big multiples will tell a, will agree specifications with a food manufacturer, but they're not going to be able to check on the ingredients, so even though the, the, the Sainsburys and the Marks and Spencers of this world say we don't want any er,gen genetically modified ingredients going into anything that we're going to buy, there's no way that they can guarantee that before we've even bought any. +Having said that, do we accept the recommendations in this report? +Yes +Authorizations for legal proceeding. +Proposed. +Agreed. +Registration of births deaths and marriages. +It's for you Mr +Nothing to add, er, if members have any questions I'll be happy to answer them. +Noted? +Charity Youth Committee, marked S. +Do we have a member er, from that Committee? +Yes Chairman, I am following in Major 's shoes, I don't reckon I know a great deal about it yet, and I'm not sure that this erm, er, advisory er, committee is yet actually on the go, but I will go into this. +The stumbling block here does seem to be the inability of the Charity Commissioners themselves to keep up with the volume of work. +Er, I am, Mr Chairman, I support that fully, because if you write to them it's six months before they'll reply. +And you're wondering, I mean I don't think we can expect of the advice of charities now, or very little, you know, and, and they've got to be very, very careful +I was meeting the Commissioners +Pardon? +I was leaving the Commissioners out as far as I could. +Yes, yes, yes. +It's a very meagre budget Chairman I should think we're getting off very lightly. +Yes +. +Item nine, motion evenings and Saturday meetings. +I propose that we retain the status quo Chairman. +I'll second that +I second that +Are you all in favour of that? +Yes +West Mercia Police Authority, Paper C, now you received this late +I'd be pleased to answer questions Chairman, and I'm sure Mr will help, help me deal with the budget crisis. +And I shall endeavour to +Well that's all you've got in front of you at the moment, isn't it, the budget Chairman? +You have other things as well. +Are there any questions? +Pardon? +Are there any questions, I'm asking, yes, I'm waiting for questions. +Can I make an observation Mr Chairman, will you take observations as well? +Yes, I'll take observat why, wait a minute. +Yes, erm, on paragraph three erm, the, the last sentence erm, where it says without direct access to its own balances, the authority may therefore have to make revised precept in ninety four, ninety five erm, I understand what's being said there, but any organization needs to actually work within er, a clearly defined budget. +Er, the Police Authority last year I think actually had to have an extra nine hundred thousand pounds of spending, the budget was funded by the constituent's authorities, erm, and we've already for next year in fact, made available effectively six hundred thousand pounds worth of extra spending by erm, various means, so I would hope that erm, the authority does use as, as much prudence and restraint in its financial affairs as possible, because of the, the effects on all, all concerned. +Yes, Chairman, can I say that erm, when the b the budget's in the process of formulation and we're discussing the question of balances and reserves and how they should be marked for the immediate future, particularly in regard to the way that er, reorganization may take place at police authorities in the very near future, and also those of us who are on this, on, on other committees who've had experience in, and the same sort of thing happening in further education for instance, where immediately the assets, before even the regulations were put on the table, the assets of all these things were, all these er, erm,coll the further education colleges were frozen so we couldn't do anything with them at all as an Authority, and er, actually many of them were taken from us without er, without any question at all . +So in the light of that it's per now is a good opportunity to er, make sure that those reserves and balances were available for A, the er, Police Authority should it require it, but B, to those constituent authorities who had helped in the er, build-up of these reserves. +Now, what's being said here in that particular sentence, is that there are obviously going to be, or possibly could be occasions when er, the Police Authority has er, an overspend, which is an immediate problem for instance, on pensions, and you've heard the er, Fire Service Chief talking about his problems. +They're just the same with the police force, there could be er, er, an increase in police pay,or there could be any, a very large incident which would require planning, if these happen then it has always been the case, if there wasn't the money available then a precept could be put upon us as a local authorities to er, cover that erm, directly. +That's no different to what the situation is now, it was there before, the difference is that the banker is different. +The banker is not the reserves of the Police Authority, because that has now been transferred to the authority. +I should tell you that er, the budget really represents er, an increase in the availability of police resources over the previous years. +I'm delighted with that, the budget came out er, much better than I'd hoped it would do, and er, and I, I am sure that we shall see some improvement in the police er, over the next year. +Of course there is, there is the possibility, there is definitely going to be a reorganization, we shan't have the same sort of input I don't think, we shan't be allowed to have the same sort of input in a totally undemocratic er, er, authority that's going to be there where the, the governments will er, put er, most of the people on board, where the Home Secretary will decide on the Chairman, er, we don't know what the government regulations are going to say about balances in terms for the new authority. +Er, if they say that er, they should be er, a balance or reserve put in by constituent authorities then we will have the money available to do that, if we didn't then they may have frozen the reserves that are already there and asked us to put some more money in as well. +I find that is the situation that I've tried to er, guard against with the budget that we've been put in on this occasion, and I hope that answers er, er, Mr but er, I'll answer any other questions that are put up. +Thank you very much. +Could I say Chairman,in Worcester and Shropshire are in agreement with this budget and er, which has been engineered to a great deal by the Chairman of the Budget and er, we're here to, +Yes +I don't, I don't mind worked out, but engineered gives a very +Regarding paragraph nine Chairman, no doubt you, you would tell us if there's been a response on this, because this does seem a useless step forward er, to increase the number of people at the coalface as it were, and self-financing, and no doubt we shall hear in due course about this. +The Authority are pushing as much as they can on the scheme and there's been no response to yesterday. +It's a crazy situation, because when Clarke was the Home Secretary, and he made a, a speech in parliament, we adjourned a meeting of the Authority to listen to him speaking, now we'd already made applications er, to increase the number complete officers by the, getting rid of the superintendents, and Clarke came out with what we'd said, yes, do that, but the Home Office are still saying no you can't. +Er, I mean the whole lot separately, +Yes, yes, +I mean it's crazy. +if I can comment on that Chairman, the erm, the Authority asked for thirty for next month, along with all the other authorities I think in the country, asked for an improvement in the, in the policing the country, and I think people that live in, in Shropshire, and the people that live in other er, parts of the country as well, would have welcomed the increase in the police force this year, but the government decided not to do that. +We, we then had this situation where the, er, the Chief Constable ha went to great lengths to er, work out a new establishment for himself, and the senior management, and actually ach chi and er, and preempted it and then asked the er, the Home Office if he could use the money to increase the constables on the beat. +We are still waiting for them to agree or not to that. +The feeling at the moment is that they are sympathetic towards us, and they don't see any difficulty in that as yet, but no one is prepared to put their hand up and say yes go ahead and spend the money in that way. +But the money is in the budget Chairman, I want to make that quite clear, the money is here in, in the West Mercia Police budget to be able to provide sixteen extra policemen immediately. +Police Officers. +Policemen immediately that that is given to us by the Home Office. +I hope the Authority unanimously do support it. +Yes, I think Chairman, you ought to ask your Committee to note paragraph six, I think that's quite important and worthy of note. +Because we employ a lot of +Can I record we've received this here Mr Chairman? +Move the reports received? +Yes. +Now it is recommended that we in section nine and four A, in brackets four, someone move. +Chairman, can he just report to us? +Right, +Chairman, if we can just go through this briefly. +Erm, number thirty six. +Erm, it contains access to four, five and they'll be submitted after discussion at this particular Committee, to Policy Planning or the Policy Resources Committee. +As we've made perfectly clear in the last discussion we've just had, no final decisions on the implementation of any variations will be taken until Council meets on the twenty fifth of February. +This booklet was distributed just before met, so in fact er, paragraph two does say at the moment that in our new recommended programme there isn't, well in fact they did agree those recommendations. +In addition though, and we come on to them in a second, it asks for further reductions to be added to that if possible. +But the provisional guid the guideline which was set by Policy and Resources in the first instance, was just for this Committee to identify seventy thousand pounds' worth of reductions. +Those reductions were those identified in paragraph three and perhaps I do need to point out in fact that according to the report in Policy and Resources Committee, the use of carry forwards from the registration service of twenty thousand pounds in fact needs to be replicated across all three years. +Now quite clearly that has er, implications on the registration service and believe the County Secretary will talk about that at some future point. +Erm, paragraph four erm, outlines there is a gap after these new guidelines of six hundred and seventy one thousand, and to bridge that gap, the P and R asked that er, the Fire and Rescue Service identify a hundred thousand pounds of sur of reductions from its budget. +The audition which is the additional item includes moves at Policy and Resources Committee that they asked all committees to expose further reductions if possible to help close this gap of six hundred and seventy one thousand pounds. +Just find it on the kind of introduction. +The other guideline which was issued was namely that of capital, where the a accepted the general guidelines which appeared in the county papers and as far as this Committee was concerned, would mean the general acceptance of all those items which appear in that the first year of that capital programme, subject to the proviso that the revenue contemplated and the benefits of the capital programme will be considered by Policy Panel in its forthcoming meeting. +As far as the introduction is concerned I have nothing more to say. +I am, unless there are any questions, can we not then five, move on to number five? +Er, one question if I may Chair? +Erm, I note that on paper R earlier, we er, approved the recommendation to ask Resources Management sub-committee to approve the release of three thousand of registration service carry forward monies, and we're now being asked to approve our budget next year, which er, also reduces twenty thousand for registration service. +Can we be told please exactly what the er, balancing hand of carry forwards shown on the right estimates, the twenty three thousand consists of? +Are they, what, what are those are registration services? +That, the thirty three thousand includes twenty three thousand of the registration services carry forwards, but it does not take into account the three thousand which have just been requested here. +So that would reduce it down to twenty. +I just want to make sure we have the money now. +If you, if you like, I could speak now Chair? +Yes +Er, naturally we're disappointed you're proposing to take er, twenty thousand of our twenty three thousand carry forwards in the registration service. +The problem is as Mr has said, if that is expected to be replicated across future years, this would represent a ten percent reduction in the statutory service, er, which is only partly under control of this Committee, with mixed responsibilities with the Registrar General. +Seventy percent of the expenditure is on staff who you do not employ and cannot dismiss, a large part of the income, or all the income is through the fees that are set na nationally by the government. +You have very little room for manoeuvre within this service, and the Registrar General has reserve powers to impose services on you, and I would have to advice you it would be virtually, or I would have to say it would be impossible to achieve that ongoing reduction in future years. +Erm, does the Chair wish er, me to reach section by section, or do you wish to take the bookings as they are Chairman? +Well I think we've got to take it section by section. +In that case the, the white page which isn't numbered at the back of page three, is the revised estimate, and shows the variations as outlined there. +Erm, the only variations which are actually going outside the Committee control are as a result of the internal market variations which are going on down . +Plus of course the growth in the Firemen's Pension Scheme of thirty one thousand in the current financial year, rising in future years. +Otherwise the Committee services are containing their budgets within original cash limits. +If there are no questions on the revised estimates Chair, then the, the base budget for ninety three, ninety four are those outlined on the green pages, identified it certain service by service. +It's on these figures which in effect any Committee reductions will be made. +I have nothing further to say on the green pages. +Do members have any questions? +Okay, does anybody +Before, before you go on, you say that the twenty thousand can't be rep replicated in income registration column, does that show, how would show in here then? +It doesn't show, it doesn't show in here, no. +If the registration service was erm, asked to ma to reduce its budgets for ninety four, five and future years, by twenty thousand, it could do it in to three, four, five because it would bring forward twenty thousand pounds worth of carry forwards. +However in five, six, its net expenditure would reduce to erm, two hundred and twelve thousand pounds. +And from what County Secretary's just said, we would be unable to identify reductions in statutory service to live within that cash and +The salmon pages then Chair, are those items which have been put forward to achieve the guidelines set by Policy and Resources Committee. +In additions, I would remind members of the request from Policy and Resources to try and identify wherever possible further savings, in aid of the six hundred and seventy one thousand pound gap which currently exists between budget proposals and the expected figures. +Any, yes Mr +A couple of comments on that Chair, the first one, on the reduction in carry forwards, my understanding is that, in fact it's quite amusing in some ways, because this, this is something I was accused of as Chair of Resources Management during my year. +Er, what in fact this Committee is doing, is saying that at one of the sections that makes up part of it, you happen to have carry forwards spare from last year, therefore use them because we can't identify anything else in budget savings for this, next year. +Erm, that isn't necessarily the same as saying by the way your section will have to repeat that saving in future years. +I think it's quite legitimate for this Committee to take that twenty thousand because it's there, and to say to itself, post budget we will have to look at the whole of the areas covered by budget protection to find the replicated twenty thousands in future years, and not just expect it to come from registration. +Erm, from the comments from the table that seems to be generally agreed. +Yet the point, it's a question really, which refers back to the last programme summary three, of the, the ninety four, ninety five base budget. +Within that we're, we identified a gross expenditure and a gross income across all areas of the Committee's work. +Now clearly some of those are, are outside our direct control. +Nevertheless there's five hundred and fourteen thousand as our income that the Fire and Rescue Service, the Fire Training Unit, from the Trading Standards Department, and from Emergency Planning. +My question is, has the P A G looked at any ways of increasing any of that income to any degree at all? +And if so, what were their findings? +We have reviewed charges on, and the Fire Service, erm, in the past, and, and we've increased certain erm, but we didn't see any way we could, we could increase any more at that time. +So far as Trading Standards is concerned Chairman, the major income are weights and measures testing fees and they are set down by LACOTS, that's Local Authority Courts on Trad on Trading Standards on er, an agreed scale, so we charge exactly the same as other authorities, for the same, for the same work, and we increase the fees every year, er, in line with erm, the recommendation. +Er, the amount that we get, get in depends on erm, the amounts of trade and industry. +We've done relatively well in the past couple of years because we've had a lot of petrol pumps, because of the new, the opening of the big supermar the, the supermarkets where there's thirty, forty pumps go going, we make a fair bit of money in that way. +But you can't guarantee that, er, and once the supermarket developments er, have gone, then you'll drop off down, down again, and again you're affected by the rece recession, whereas people won't replace things like weighbridges, er, automatic weighing machines that sort of thing during the recession, if you come out of recession, then you might get, and you say you might get some increase in fees in that, that area. +But those are always considered er, during the erm, er, revised estimates time in any way. +The other one and that erm, the major source of income are court, court costs, and again that depends on the cases you're taking, it depends on the, on the amount awarded by er, magistrates. +Over the years, we've taken the risk to increase the court's costs, erm, where we've got agreed pro er, principles, and we've b we've been able to go to the courts and they've agreed with us, for instance, standard fees for overloaded vehicle cases, we charge seventy pounds a time. +Er, and the courts by and large agree to erm, give us the seventy pounds out ev every time, but even so, even if we get the award of the costs, then the difficulty is, is, is in getting those costs in. +Erm, it's up to the magistrate's clerk and sometimes the first +So it's in the Fire Service that we've actually got time posted, and in fact most of the things that we wish to charge for we're actually statutorily prohibited from doing. +Things like false alarm calls and so on, have been through the courts and we've been stopped from doing that. +We charge the highest rate in the country for issuing fire certificates which is one of the few things which we're actually allowed to charge, and we charge more than virtually any other authority in this country. +The trouble about that is, it's now enforced upon us and that's official target, we have to set priority of fire certificates because we need the money, bluntly, otherwise we have to find it elsewhere, so we give them a priority that they wouldn't otherwise have. +Er, in terms of training, commercial training and it's not just the Fire and Rescue Service I spoke recently with the Chief Ambulance Officer, who's experiencing the same problems. +Training's the first thing that goes, in a recession, that's the first thing that people cut, and not only, well we are achieving the fixed amount of income that we're obliged to in order to make previous reductions, but we're certainly not covering costs. +So what you're effectively doing at the moment is subsidizing the private commercial sector. +Erm, everything else we've looked at, there are either statutory problems or other problems that prevent us from charging. +So it's, if further income generation is limited, it's through external circumstances rather than any internal increases. +So we've really, we've really no alternative but to accept the hostage three, one to three on the reductions. +It's best as I see it. +Erm, salmon paper. +We, we've got not alternative, did you say? +Well I, I think that that's exactly what the Committee was saying to the Minister there. +No, no. +We, we, I thought were all saying that we felt that these reductions were actually unacceptable, or totally un almost unacceptable. +Erm, there's not a word that's suitable to use actually in this case because we find that they would actually impact upon the service in a serious manner and therefore we don't, +Well put it this way, if we were compelled to find the savings they ask, that is the only way we could do it. +That's right, we need to put that rider on, that, that we would hope that, obviously would look favourably at er, erm, removing these restrictions on our service if at all possible. +It's only specific in item two. +Specifically in item two, yes, sorry. +Yes, yes, yes. +Chair, Sorry, one and three I, I, I think that we've, I, I certainly couldn't accept. +We've got to accept the implication of, of item three though, in future years. +I think, I think Council is accepting this but I think it's +You're changing battle ground there Mr Chairman, to be honest. +I think what Mr has said, is quite right, is that this is a carry forward for this year, and er, we've, we're clobbering it taking it up really is what we're saying. +So what he's saying we've got to discount it +So what he's saying is +Next year we wouldn't have a, erm, look and see whether that twenty thousand is coming from the local authority, it's not necessarily in that particular money +It's not our calls +So what we're saying, or in item, well the last item, implication of further service reduction, with that twenty thousand pound on Fire and Rescue Service will be applicable for this year only? +We've said that will be acceptable in P A G Chairman? +It's not acceptable, it's not acceptable Chairman, we agreed in the P A G, it wasn't acceptable. +It's been spelt out. +We threw that one out then. +Mm, yes. +No way. +But it's in, but it's in here isn't it? +So we put a, as a rider on, that it had already passed the rider it says there, but we found it unacceptable at P A G. +for we're offering them +If it has to be found that's the only way. +But to us it is unacceptable. +Is the exception applied to two? +Yes, +So we've got to in Trading Standards? +Yes, yes, yes. +Trading Standards however important, and Trading Standards is very important, erm, when you're getting down to erm, reductions in equipment and uniforms and men, then lives are at risk, it is really a matter of er, er, of, of for our fire fighters that they have the right equipment and the right uniform and when it actually comes down, you can't compare that to maybe reductions in Trading Standards. +If, if I can support that Chairman, and what John said also. +That's why we couldn't, when we talked about it earlier, use the same word unacceptable, on both item two under Fire Service reductions. +Because the Fire and Rescue Service reductions are unacceptable, and I think this Committee should say to, and to leave that in its proposal to Policy Panel and P and R. +What things? +But when it comes to the Trading Standards Board, what we're saying is, if P and R and Policy Panel this Committee finds seventy thousand pounds' worth of savings, then clearly item two represents a way of doing it. +But it represents a way of doing it which is not what the members of this Committee, of all three parties I suspect, want to do. +And we would therefore strongly urge them to consider that, and not to take that saving unless it was sort of necessary. +Okay. +Sounds reasonable to me. +Are you all in favour of that then? +Yes, as long as this possibly isn't major that we do not agree on? +Well the Chairman +Are we? +So we're all in favour? +Yes +Right. +Capital programme Chair, is that outlined in erm, on the pink pages, if members have any comments to put to David +Aha + +It's er, courtesy, common courtesy. +yes, and not going out to find your own knowledge really. +You reach a point where you're not certain, then be big enough to say, I don't know, but I can phone our man who does. +Absolutely, absolutely no problem. +Right, let's get +Can you park at the back? +Carol, or not? +N , er, no, probably no, because we've just, we've just got, we've got three spots, which are ta , are taken most of the week you see, so it's just a bit yes. +It's only a very short walk down, if you walk through the shops you don't have to go all the way down, you can actually come, just walk past that shop and go down the middle, and you come out through the car park . +Are we ready? +Smokers? +I've never been on tour, but I've been to the visitor's centre, and +Yes. +Erm, on page eleven, there's a chart where +Because you can all get these things like Guy Fawkes for, but also transcripts for. +Welcome to the last session of the day. +Yes, er, and we're looking at living assurance. +yes +Can I explain all those booklets that I've put out on the table? +First of all, there's two booklets here, one's a Covermaster and one's for living assurance, which has got your questions answered at the bottom. +It's very good for revision, because it's the type of thing your clients are going to be asking you, and it's the type of thing we're going to be asking you tomorrow. +So it's a nice way of revising tonight. +It's similar to C V T, you really haven't got any notes technically today, so it, it's nice, erm, booklet to use. +There's also the living assurance one the same with questions answered. +I've also given you a living assurance rate book, because we'll be looking at both the rate books in a minute. +And the living assurance, the guide to er, the illnesses that are covered. +The critical illness, just a very brief guide there. +I think we'll need a box. +And a pen, one of those each. +One of those each, and finally erm, a circular put out by Abbey entitled Women at Risk, which we'll be talking about. +yes +Right, so yo , you watched er, Dr. Marius Bernard, erm, the South African, what did you think about the message that came across in the film? +What did you think about critical illness assurance? +The importance of insurance. +It's a very powerful message isn't it? +I mean think er, life assurance erm, obviously it's the to have fails, but if somebody is eligible for, and can afford living assurance, it's got to be a brilliant product. +I would think there must be a large part of people out there that could benefit from their estates isn't there? +I'm, I'm never +You're absolutely right, Philip. +O K Sue? +Can you carry on your domestic discussion tonight, yes? +Erm, yes, you're absolutely right. +Let me tell you a little bit about the history. +Er, when we introduced Covermaster, erm, thirteen years ago or so now, it was a unique plan. +It was actually plagiarised by sixteen other life companies within the first six months. +It was copied. +One company still calls their whole of life protection plan Mastercover,, that's an idea of how much they copied it Erm, but of course, very quickly things moved on. +Other contracts were available. +Er,b , but we were the first company, back in, I think 1987, to bring out living insurance. +It was the first company to actually insure against critical illnesses. +It had been done before of course. +South Africa in the mid-eighties, it was er, common in the States. +But we're the first major company in Britain, so our is second to none, our experience with the contract is second to none. +It's very, very powerful. +You need living assurance because you're not going to die, you need living assurance because you're not going to die. +When you look at er, the critical illnesses that are covered, heart attacks, cancer, stroke, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. +I mean is there anybody here, who honestly can't think of anybody who they know, I mean, perhaps if I try and rephrase that, is there anybody here who cannot think of somebody who's suffered an illness that fits into that critical illness er, category. +I mean we must all know somebody who's had a heart attack, a stroke, cancer etcetera, etcetera. +So we, we understand the implications, and to the money to actually put your life to right, is an absolutely wonderful contract. +I said we've got er, the best claims experience, I've given you the one pamphlet, Women at Risk, which points out, women used to say, oh, a stroke it won't happen to me, cancer it won't happen to me. +But that is quite useful to show what we've already paid out to women, +We, we've got, three over there. +Have you got that one somewhere? +Yes, +Have you already got those? +No +There erm, somewhere along the line, right. +I'll, I'll get you some in a minute, er, I'll carry on if er, if er, you don't mind I've got, oh here we are, I fo , I hadn't given them out sorry. +Thank you. +So that's very useful to show you how women have been affected but this is on our claims experience. +Erm, if you turn over the page it says seventy eight percent of female claims have been on the diagnosis of cancer, and it gives you a breakdown of the condition and the age when diagnosed. +All very powerful. +A pamphlet that is equally powerful is one called Abbey's Number One for Claims Experience, but unfortunately we don't have any other copies at the moment, so I will leave one on the side so you can look at it. +But do ask when you get back to the branch, because it samples claims that Abbey has, have had, erm, it reiterates the statistics that you've just heard, the likelihood of somebody suffering with cancer, heart attacks, strokes etcetera, it er, gives you the ages er, if you choose, write in statistics, the one you've been listening to. +Current age, twenty five, the likelihood of somebody having a heart attack or developing cancer before sixty five, heart attack one in ten males, one in thirty nine females, cancer one in ten males, one in ten females. +It's, it's horrendous those statistics when you think about it. +If we can help people in those circumstances it's got to be a brilliant product. +What, what was that leaflet called please? +It's Abbey Number One, Abbey, Abbey Life is Number One for Claims, because we were the first company er, if I put it over there now, it will stop me collecting it and taking in out. +They are available as I say, but at the moment our's are being updated. +So it's an absolutely brilliant product. +Now,, if we consider ordinary life assurance, somebody first said to me that er, maybe the best erm, sales manager, or sales promoter or publicist or, or whatever, was the person who actually had the idea of calling death insurance, life insurance, yes? +How could you fancy ringing up your potential clients, and say, Hello, it's Carol, I'm calling from Abbey Death. +it doesn't sound too good does it? +But that's what it is isn't it? +Ordinary life assurance really means death insurance. +What happens if, let's have a look, and compare it with critical illness. +On death, the premiums cease, the sum assured is paid on the living assurance or the Covermaster Plan, living expense is reduced, the widow could work or remarry, a potential answers. +Critical illness, you've got carry on paying the premiums, with no lump sum paid on living assur , er, on life assurance, the living expenses are likely to increase, because you may have er, somebody who's disabled, paralysed or whatever, there's no chance of the widow returning to work because she's looking after person who's er, ill, and obviously she can't remarry because she's not widowed at this point. +So if you compare critical illness and death with what happens at the time, and I've got to ask you this. +What carries you away? +Well on death, obviously a car first carries you away, if you're ill it's an ambulance. +And one simple statement, which do you see the most of when you're travelling around? +How many hearses, how many ambulances do you see? +Ambulances. +Yes, how many +They take them away at night in Telford, so you only see them +So it's a brilliant product and there's got to be a need for it. +You don't have to die. +This year, almost a quarter of million people were known to have cancer. +A hundred thousand will still be alive five years later. +A lump sum, we won't ask for it back, and maybe it's been useful for them to adapt their lives in the meantime. +Brilliant concept. +What I want to do though is, is go through the plan, highlighting the differences. +It was based on the Covermaster Plan with added extras. +So I don't want to go through all the things that are the same, I want to highlight the differences, and maybe it'll help you in your mind to distinguish between the two products as regards examination and the questionnaire tomorrow. +First of all with living assurance it's a whole of life plan that pays on, well we know it pays out on death, and we know it pays out on serious illness, but after that, the pay-out is obviously vast compared with Covermaster. +Permanent disability, major organ transplant, paralysis, multiple sclerosis, blindness, terminal illness, and loss of limbs. +All of which we have in this brochure defined for us. +Now one of the areas we can get involved in when we're talking to our clients is well what do they mean by cancer? +Does it count as all cancer, what's a definition of a heart attack. +This is quite useful for you to refer to, this booklet, but do please tell your clients you're not a doctor, it's very much up to the client's doctor and our medical underwriters, as to whether we pay out or not. +This is just a guide, but a very useful guide. +Er, for example, we're talking about a heart attack damage to heart muscle, we're talking about strokes where there's a loss fl ,bl , sorry, the flow of blood to the brain, erm, we're talking about cancer, we're talking about an abnormal growth of cells, but not all cancers are covered, a skin cancer which isn't life threatening, isn't covered, erm, as a result of perhaps too much sunbathing etcetera, whereas a melanoma, a cancer that comes into er, a great lump on the skin which can be life-threatening, obviously is. +So you have to sort of look carefully. +The definitions are here, erm, loss of limbs, yes? +Paralysis, when a limb is paralysed there is complete loss of movement and feeling, if you're talking about paralysis, loss of limbs, we're talking about the severance, would you believe, of any two limbs. +Would you tell people if it was from above erm, the elbow or above the knee? +And also it would . +And also? +Erm, actually there was a mix-up with that yesterday, we were told one limb, +One or more limbs +Two +Two limbs, +Two +Two limbs, two limbs, for loss of limb, yes, yes. +yes +So what I'm saying to you is if you like to refer to this, this will give you the clear definition of what, what's covered in each case. +Who can have this plan? +Well, the key point there is there's no joint life, last claim. +You can write it own life, joint life first claim, or life of another, but you can't l , write it joint life, last claim. +Why not, David? +Well erm,well probably because it's not going to benefit the person. +Absolutely, does it make sense for, for husband and wife over there to wait for the second one to have a heart attack, or the second one to have a cancer before it pays out, +Come on +It really doesn't make sense does it? +What was that Gerald? +I said, come on have a heart attack. +come and have a heart attack +So it doesn't make sense, and obviously it isn't er, written joint life, last claim. +Sorry, can I just ask a question there? +Certainly. +In the question of no joint life, last claim, +mhm +Right,I've forgotten what I was going to ask now, no it's alright, I was thinking about the circumstances, I was thinking about er, er, a dependent left behind you,sorry. +Yes, you, you've sorted it in your own mind? +Yes, yes. +Good, minimum premiums are the same, twenty pounds and two hundred, but do remember that existing clients, could have a reduced minimum premium of sixteen pounds or a hundred and sixty. +What do we mean by an existing client, Shirley? +A client that's already got some insurance. +Absolutely, and they can actually retain that policy with you that evening. +It doesn't have to be one that's issued. +So if you start thinking about our client that we've previously erm, who we identified wanted fifty seven thousand pounds worth of life cover, I believe. +Maybe the solution would be to put some of that in living assurance, and some of it in Covermaster. +Whatever, if we're writing two policies, he can be classed as an existing client, so we could have a reduced minimum. +However, do we talk minimum premiums to our clients. +No +If you tell somebody you can it for as little as sixteen pounds per month, guess what, that what they'll have. +If you tell them that to get exactly what they need it's going to cost them thirty pounds a month, and isn't it a brilliant contract, they'll probably have that. +O K, let's move on to maximum benefit. +What's the maximum benefit on a Covermaster Plan? +Five hundred thousand pounds. +Five million +Five million, or if, five million, we might do a little bit of reinsuring on that one, don't quote me. +Erm, the maximum benefit on living assurance is the figure that Janet come up with just, half a million, five hundred thousand. +That's actually on all critical illness cover plans, because if they've got a living assurance, or they've got some other plan that's got critical illness benefit, it's the total maximum that Abbey will insure them for, for critical illness, for heart attacks, stroke etcetera. +And includes Keyman cover. +It includes Keyman cover. +This is an interesting statement. +If somebody has er, life cover, and living insurance is over a hundred thousand, they will be subject to the need being established. +Whatever does that mean? +They've got to prove that they actually need that much cover. +Right, so how are they going to prove it? +Well by showing that their dependents will need that sort of income to come in. +Income, we're looking at income. +We're looking at financial underwriting. +Anything above a hundred thousand, and we're looking at financial underwriting, we're looking at basically four times salary. +So if we've got somebody earning nine thousand, they're going to want to know why they're insuring themselves for a hundred thousand on living insurance benefit. +O K, so financial underwriting, is on a hundred thousand and above, you look at four times salary. +Erm,Right, erm, we get this thorny question now about how to establish how much somebody needs for living assurance. +If we just go back to the plan in the future, erm, and we move down to this section here, let's look at the questions we're asking. +If you were to become critically ill or disabled, would you like some or all of your life assurance capital sum to be paid to you immediately, if so, how much? +Now that's a difficult question to ask people, yes? +How much would you like in the event of a heart attack or a stroke, it's very difficult for them to decide. +Erm, what type of things do you think would actually affect that decision? +Size of the mortgage. +Size of the mortgage, that could well be the first point of call isn't it? +Which most of us will have a mortgage protected against death, I E, the sum assured is released to repay the loan, what happens if we get a critical illness, heart attack, stroke, etcetera, and can't work. +You're still going to have problems repaying your mortgage. +So ideally, the size of the mortgage is a good starting point. +What other things do you think we could use to determine how much? +Erm, +If they'll need special care. +Yes, but lo , but then we've so , we've got to pre-judge a little bit then, as to what illness they're going to have, and that gets a bit difficult. +But you're right, we're, we're taking into account extra costs. +Age and , sorry +Talk about +That's O K, it's about the children +Er, +Carry on, you go then +If the children are er, privately educated, and it's high, high expenses that you would want to carry on with. +It might well be something that is very important to you to maintain, even if you can't carry on working through illness. +Absolutely right. +Age, because you might be considering well, er, if something happens dramatically, at say fifty, fifty two, or something like that, you might just go and retire, so you would be set up in that respect. +So how would you determine how much you need? +How much the sum assured would be +Erm , well by virtue I suppose really, of your operating need, if you like, your, your yearly operating expenses. +Yes, you're, you're approaching it from er, a similar method to Sue over there, you're saying how much would I need to, to survive and you're talking small businessmen really, aren't you? +In that effect, yes, yes? +Sort of, yes. +You could be looking at a minimum of one, two, three years' salary, because you might be thinking well at least that'll give me a chance to get on, to get back on my feet. +I mean it's a fact isn't it, that there are a lot of people, the first heart attack is just a, a danger signal, you know, beware, take things easy, look after yourself, you've been putting your body under too much stress. +But what happens if you're not financially secure, is that you're off work with a heart attack, you're rushing back to work because you need your income. +You're putting your body under more stress. +So you have another heart attack. +Yes, it actually gives you time to recover. +It could be length of time your children have got in, in further education. +If they're already in college, you might +Could well be because you're looking at making sure that they, they fulfil what is a dream for you and for them. +It's a similar point to Sue, was making. +Absolutely. +So it, it could be just debts. +Can I just ask a question. +It's just slightly off er, the track at the moment, if you were writing a living assurance plan for someone, and they'd already got a Covermaster plan, +Mhm, right +Or, or other benefits that would actually kick in at a certain point, er, of death, I mean obviously this would actually help at erm, diagnosis, and you're writing into this, sort of to cover all of the things that we're talking about, and they get that, and then they continue to live, the rest of your plans are all then thrown out aren't they, because you've got all those things that you've put into place for death, sorted out in the years before . +Right, well, well, actually yes, what, what you look at, is, is what's important to you and you put a cash value on it, and it might be the mortgage, it might be education, it might be giving yourself a couple of years' salary and paying debts or whatever, er, and the security of knowing that O K, if I die, I'm not leaving a problem for my family, but at the same time if I'm in a situation where I get a serious illness and I can't bring in an income, I'm securing my, my, my future in that respect. +So of course, after that, your uninsured, which is absolutely true, but at the same time, erm, you're really just bringing forward the pay-out when it's needed most. +It's, it's a brilliant contract for single people. +You can't, people, single people without dependents are really not very interested in life assurance, because on their death they're dead, you know, as long as they don't leave any debts they're not too bothered. +But suddenly they can't be independent if they have er, er, a, an illness, a problem. +Suddenly this means a lot to them. +Yes? +Critical illness cover, that's great. +Excuse me a minute. +Sorry to interrupt, I've come to collect the packet. +Oh right, it's the bag, sorry there isn't one tonight. +See you then +Thanks for coming then, yes, bye. +That's good, I forgot the post. +Erm, where was I? +What was I talking about? +Single people. +Single people, brilliant isn't it? +Er, there must be a worry in a lot of people, single people's minds what happens to me when I get older and in ill-health, how will I cope? +Well if they can afford to buy in help and to sort their life out, you've suddenly got a product that they really want to buy. +I mean this, this product, if people have got the health to buy it, because we're obviously not going to take on people that are in poor health, they can afford it, because obviously as they get older, the risk is greater and it becomes more expensive, it sells itself, it really does, it's a brilliant product. +Presumably you can it can cost to an existing life policy +Absolutely, yes. +So that even if you've these benefits, that other life cover would then go on to +Absolutely , yes, because an ordinary life policy won't pay out, so if you've got a combination of Covermaster and living assurance, you've got your life policy to pay out on death, and your living assurance to pay out on critical illness. +And if it's a sudden death, well, they'll both pay out anyway. +Erm, to make it more affordable, you could reduce the life cover, by the amount of life cover on the living master. +Yes, yes you could. +You'll find what you're doing er, and in a way, it's a comfort to you, that you take, you get all this information, and you take it away, and very often there's not one clear answer. +You need to think about the person's circumstances, and that's where it's great, that you can come back and sit down with your manager, and he's going to say to you well what do you think. +And he's either going to say well that's great, that's exactly what I would suggest, or have you considered this, have you considered that, which is a great security when you're starting. +Er, when you're starting out and you're not sure of all, of all the options. +There is a suggested minimum, but if, if, if it's right for the person and they can afford it, that a minimum of forty thousand pounds is, is, is er, er, an industry suggested figure of a minimum. +But that's as I say, after looking at mortgage, salaries, etcetera. +Waiver of premiums, exactly the same, not exactly the same, sorry, very similar to er, as with Covermaster, it's automatically built into the first life assured, it's payable until you return to work, reach the age of sixty, or pay-out of a claim. +I mean, to die is not absolutely correct there is it, because I mean you could actually have a pay-out on critical illness, which happens earlier. +But very similar to Covermaster. +Built into the first life assured. +Does that mean the second life assured can't have it? +Presumably no. +No, it means they can have it as an option. +Why's it built into the first life assured? +It's likely the first life would be the man. +The first life, well it doesn't have to be the man, but if, if you write the application so +It's the breadwinner +yes, the breadwinner, the main breadwinner, you're absolutely right. +We're talking here of protection, of they can't have waiver of premium because of ill-health, they're not going to be able to have living assurance, so it, it's not an option really for them to have one without the other, because it's an automatic protection that, that really should be the basis of somebody's package of their health commitment to have it. +So it's automatically built in to the first life assured, but it is an option for the second if they want it. +That's waiver of premium. +Again, just to remind you of waiver of premium, this is exactly the same as the Covermaster so you really won't need to cover, copy this, it's charged as we established earlier, as according to your client's age and sex I E how old they are and what gender they are, you can see how the percentage of the premium is established. +A joint life charge will calculated as the sum of the individual charges, we looked at that earlier, the maximum age at which waiver of premium can be added to a new policy is fifty five, next birthday. +And can I tell you, that if we'd just done Covermaster, somebody could have picked up a point there. +Er, maximum age on new policy somebody new can have waiver of premium who's fifty five next birthday. +So that's, that should all be very familiar to you. +H I V exclusion. +That's an interesting one. +We've got somebody who's got a living assurance policy with us, it's going to pay out er, on diagnosis of any of those serious illnesses, and then they contract H I V, which if they had originally, we obviously wouldn't give it to them, but they contract it after the policy is enforced. +Do you think that we're actually going to pay out the sum assured? +Yes +yes +Mm, Gerald, Ilias, not sure, could do, maybe, yes? +Erm, well, we will pay out except under current disability. +So we will pay out eventually, but we will not pay out under the permanent disability clause. +Er, H I V, the aids virus is a, a debilitating disease, we won't pay out initially because as soon as on diagnosis you could basically say they are, er, they've got a debilitating disease, but we will pay out as soon as the illness actually affects some other part of the body er, and moves in to another disease. +Because you don't actually die of H I V do you? +You die of something else? +No, +No what you get from it. +Yes, what you get from it. +So we will pay out, er, any of the other serious illnesses, paralysis, major organ transplant, etcetera, death, but not on permanent disability. +That's the only exclusion. +It's not just because this illness is self- , it's self-inflicted er, cause, er, you've obviously picked this up from a variety of other er, I'd say, sources, but you also pick it up in you know, blood transfusions situation. +True, yes. +Er, once the policy's enforced, we don't look at how somebody's contracted the illness. +All we will say is you have a policy with us, you now have H I V, we will pay out eventually, because you, you're going to die, you'll probably die as they are then, or one of these other illnesses will be diagnosed, we just won't pay out on permanent disability. +How much of a check do they actually go into if somebody makes a claim on that? +In what le ? +Well to check all the facts basically, because something like H I V, if, if you're not in a category that's obviously erm, likely to catch it, you know, how would they really know that you've got it or not? +The company you mean? +The, the +Well sometimes the people don't know, but how the company clarifies he had it, knowledge of things before your client contracted it? +Well, well there's two things really. +The people, if they don't know about it, they can't erm, tell us about it basically. +Erm, if they start to have an illness and it develops we'll obviously be talking to their doctor, I mean if it's apparent that they're blind on the form, well then, obviously we would looking the amount we paid, or, or, erm, basically come to some agreement on that. +If it was obvious that there'd been a false declaration. +If on the other hand if they got it genuinely after the policy was enforced, that's the risk that we take. +That's really why the policy is there, isn't it? +Er, the risks that peo , they will incur later on. +Erm, just on that H I V thing there, is that, isn't it a bit confusing isn't it, in that we don't actually pay out on H I V full stop, on Aids full stop, it is, it's really the other, the other things. +They're going to happen aren't they, and H I V is the cause of it, but not, it doesn't cause the death of some oth , you, people don't die of H I V +No +The, the, the body's immune system gets something further, some of the others +No, it's alright, I was looking in here, because I mean, it, I er, you know, I saw in the er, when I looked in the manual it said it didn't pay out on H I V, so it. +yes it is confusing. +It is confusing, perhaps it doesn't pay out on immediate diagnosis, only when one of the other illnesses takes over +yes, +And in which case, they've not paid out on the H I V, it's +It's later on. +It's as a result of +And if they are going to pay out full stop. +yes +It's just prolonging it a little bit. +Sorry, just one other point on W O P there, I may have got it wrong, did you say earlier on that er, that if you get H I V, so the W O P benefit isn't payable, what about the al , did we say the allocation of W O P will still continue? +yes, you don't, er, once it's established it's not changed at all throughout the plan, so if you, if you get H I V, and you can't have W O P, it's just tough I'm afraid. +But on the other hand if you, if get serious illness and, and W O P benefit comes into effect, you've got a load of benefit from it so it's swings and roundabouts, on that then. +Ah, so you can still get the W O P benefits from, it's the same as the thing earlier on? +It doesn't mean that the W O P is cancelled all together, when +If you've got H I V, you, you don't get waiver of premiums full stop. +On anything, even if you, three weeks after you get run over, and +No, no you don't get it at all. +That's a bit unfair isn't it? +So if somebody gets H I, yes, because gets, takes out a policy at twenty five, gets diagnosed H I V at thirty, and they're still living, they haven't actually got full blown aids, and they can live for a hell of a long time afterwards, they're paying their W O P premium for a long, long time. +You could have somebody on twenty five, who when they're twenty six er, contracting a debilitating disease, never goes back to work, and we pay their premiums until they die at sixty. +It's the swings and roundabout argument isn't it? +Yes, O K. +Yes, it's a bit difficult really. +Some people win, and some people are losers +Argue with you, and then we get the answers on what to tell the customers +Erm, what happens if somebody makes a partial or full recovery? +Do we ask for their money back? +No +No we don't. +It's er, our risk and the client's good fortune. +And of course, you could say that, that could be happening more and more with the advances in medical science. +People have been diagnosed with cancer etcetera, erm, in fact at the convention yesterday, they had some clients on the stage, one lady had been diagnosed with breast cancer, she got a pay-out from living assurance, five years later she's been cleared, and, and she's thrilled to bits about it. +And they also had Roy Castle up on the stage +Would she have continued a different level of cover? +Sorry? +Would she have continued a different level of cover, +She probably wouldn't have got them +Of insurance cover after that? +She probably wouldn't have got any cover after that, she probably would have been uninsurable. +Yes. +What's not available on living assurance. +Well we know that there's no joint life, last claim, but actually you can't take a partial surrender. +You take some of the money out of the living assurance plan. +Why do you think that is? +You can't take some of the money out of the plan? +Why? +It's not a savings plan. +Well it's not a savings plan, but in Covermaster, you can take some of the money if, if you need to, if, we'll tell you that the life cover might be, er, at risk, but you can't do that at all in living assurance. +You either surrender it and take the whole cash, or keep it running, you can't take some of the money. +It, it's really because as somebody gets older the risk gets very, very great, and it needs all the money that's built up in the early years to sustain the risk, the charges for the risk later on, in the later years. +You do need all your money to offset that, so that we can charge you what we call a level premium throughout the period. +There isn't really er, anticipating much spare cash. +The benefit can't be reduced then to meet the fund in the way that er, +Well, I've got to be honest, if you actually ask and negotiate with the company, it can offer reduced benefits and reduced premiums to the client's circumstances, but it's not generally advertised. +No. +Additional insurability option, you know the one for twenty five thousand on birth and marriage. +It's not available on living assurance. +It's not available. +You can't offer people er, that. +However, they can have the index linked insurability, they can increase it in line with the Retail Price Index without further medical evidence. +This is actually brilliant. +It's good on Covermaster, but if you think you can keep your living assurance in line with inflation even when you're likely to be coming into poor health, it is a brilliant concept. +Right, so those are the unavailable features. +Just one more thing that may have been mentioned yesterday when Jess was going through the legal and underwriting session, this applies to both Covermaster and living assurance. +It actually can be a selling pitch. +Between the commencement date of the application and acceptance by Abbey Life of the risk, the life assured will be covered for death as a result of an accident, the lower of the sum assured or fifty thousand pounds. +That's before we've even accepted them. +So you're actually saying, you go to somebody's house, and you take an application, in the processing period, they die in an accident, we will pay out, whether we were going to accept them or not, we will pay out, but it's only on accident. +The age of the older life, as long as they don't exceed sixty five next birthday, and they're not engaged in any occupation or pursuit that could be considered hazardous. +So it's just an extra, erm, benefit that's on, on for most of our policies one way or another, still covered between formal acceptance. +Shirley? +Does that mean even before they pay their first premium? +Well it could technically, it depends how you set it up. +Er, you can set up these plans to start with a direct debit, which means it probably takes fourteen days to get that sorted with the bank, they'll allow fourteen days. +I am still firmly of the belief that I like to walk out of the client's house with a cheque, because that's a commitment, and then the next premium comes out of the direct debit. +So even if the associate has, has er, obtained the cheque but hasn't managed to get it in the next day, and he dies in an accident. +We would pay out. +We'd take the cheque as well though. +Erm, we, you'll actually find companies er, are very good in these circumstances. +When I was working Edgbaston, one of my colleagues went to see er, a couple er, one night. +Came into work the next morning. +Erm, the phone call rang, and it was the, the wife saying that her husband had died in his sleep that night. +Now when Abbey looked at the policy, because he'd got the Covermaster policy, the cheque and everything, there was nothing there to indicate that there was a problem. +There was no medical problem highlighted that he knew about that he should have disclosed on the form. +It was just basically, one of those things, and Abbey paid out, because they said we would have done it, we would have accepted him on this anyway. +Now you can't tell your clients this will happen, but Abbey will do, obviously like, like any life assurance company there is goodwill in that. +But there is goodwill, we should make more of that shouldn't we, +Absolutely, but they don't, but they don't do they, I mean, bad news everybody wants to know about, but, but not good news. +O K, so, that's really all I've got to say about living assurance, of all the, it's just got to be, a brilliant contract, and if you can afford it, you need it yourself. +And if you can afford it, you need to sell it to all your clients, because it is absolutely brilliant. +Any questions yourselves? +It's gone quiet. +Right, let's move on to the last session, where we're going to be looking at the rate books. +Working out the cost of these premiums, and we'll start with the Covermaster, and we'll use your workbooks. +So if you can find an example in your workbook, and you can find your Covermaster rate book, and you'll also need a calculator. +Ah, yes, I think it was, because I had it after you, didn't I, John? +Thanks +Page fourteen I think in the workbook. +Indeed +We'll have a look through how to work those out just br , just briefly. +There's a lot of erm, conflicting ideas about using Abbey's rate book and, and you might look very confusing in itself, but actually it's not half so bad as it seems. +What are we doing? +There are certain associates, who're not going to use a rate book, there's associates who er, because you're doing a two appointment sale, will always have time to come back to the office and get a computer quote and go back with the right answer. +There's other associates who like to know beforehand roughly how much they can provide for people by way of life cover and living assurance, so that they can give the people some idea, or maybe want to sit in front of them and use the rate book to give them some idea. +Until you're in a situation where you've got your own lap-top computer, and you can tell them instantly. +Now you don't have to rely on this, because you can ring through to head office in the evening, or you can ring through your branch while that's open, and get a computer quote over the phone, but actually find it quite useful if somebody asks me to be able to give them an idea of how much it's going to cost them. +And if it's a few pence out, they're not going to worry about it, particularly if I tell them, I, I added a bit on so that I'm telling them less. +Now, if we look at the first example, we've got a single male client, aged thirty four next birthday. +If you look at your rate book, you'll see that the pages are determined by the ages of the clients and whether you use the front of the book or the back of the back of the book, are determined by whether he's a smoker or a non-smoker. +Now this client is a non-smoker and he's thirty four next birthday, so we're using the front of the book. +But we haven't got any page numbers in these new rate books, +yes,no +No, so we should be age thirty four, and it should have non-smoker at the top, so it's right at the front, the commonest mistake is to look up smokers in non-smokers, and non-smokers in smokers. +Yes? +Non-smoker that's right. +Everybody on the right page? +Now before you go racing ahead there's a couple of things that I need to tell you, so can I show you how to do the first one, and then you can race on with it. +Erm, if you look at this you can see it's set out first of all in escalating premiums and level premiums, O K, that's straightforward enough. +You can see that the page is entitled Covermaster for ten thousand pounds sum assured, so basically whatever figures are quoted underneath are for every ten thousand pounds of life cover available to your client, so it you want forty thousand you multiply by four etcetera. +However, that isn't the end of the sum because you do have to add a policy fee, and we're not talking expense charge here, of one pound nineteen, we are talking a number which has been devised so that you get right answer from the rate book. +That is all, it's got nothing to do with expenses or anything else. +It's like some algebraic equations that we sometimes use. +Er, if you can remember at school working out equations, as long as you filled in the, the right bits in the right place, you got the right answer. +I'm afraid it's a bit like that. +We're using a policy fee, now the policy fee at the moment is one pound ninety eight. +However, because we're going to include waiver of premium automatically for most of our clients it's got to be the best thing, the best option, we're looking at two pounds and tuppence as a policy fee, because that's including two percent waiver of premiums. +So we're looking at a policy fee of two pounds and tuppence. +Now if like me, if somebody asked you how much it costs, you're going to give them an approximation, it's quite adequate to add on two pounds. +The tuppence doesn't matter too much. +Is that per month? +That's per month, yes. +Per ten thousand. +No, not per ten thousand, per month. +Just per month. +Per month. +Per policy +Per policy +It, it's the same fee regardless of the policy rates. +Absolutely, yes. +So if we look now at the example we've got here. +He wants a hundred thousand sum assured, escalating premium with waiver of premium on the sum assured for life. +Well if we look under escalating premium and single life male, that's the first column, we come to the figure of three pound fifty five? +He wants that three pound fifty five for every ten thousand, that's obviously thirty five pounds fifty, add on the policy fee, thirty seven pounds fifty. +If you want to be totally accurate, thirty seven pounds fifty two. +Now it may differ slightly by a penny from the computer quote anyway, so I always say, if that was me, it's going to cost you, what was it,thirt , what did it work it out, +Thirty seven pounds fifty. +It's going to cost you under thirty eight pounds, so I've got a little bit of wei , leeway if I made a few mistakes. +And when you go back with thirty seven fifty, or fifty two, he's quite happy. +The selected period, O K, in this case, the selected period is fifteen years, yes? +Now if we go back to the same example, the cost per every ten thousand for fifteen years is one pound fifty seven. +So if he wants a hundred thousand, for every ten thousand it's one pound fifty seven, it's going to cost him fifteen pounds seventy, and add two pounds, it's seventeen seventy. +It's quite simple really? +O K. +What do you notice about seventeen seventy though? +Can we charge somebody seventeen pounds seventy for a policy? +No there's a minimum premium. +It's below the minimum premium, so what will he have to pay? +Twenty pounds +Twenty pounds, what will happen to the remaining two pounds thirty odd? +It buys increased life cover. +No it buys him more units. +So he's going to get the benefit of it anyway, in the cash value. +That, that twenty pounds, that, that's inclusive of the two, of the policy fee? +That includes the policy fee. +Yes? +Right, can I ask you then, to do example two. +We've done example one together, can I now ask you to do example two, which basically is the sum, is the same sum but the client's a smoker, so you go to the back of the book. +Then example three yes, which is over the page. +Right, O K. +. +That's for one hundred thousand, that's for ten thousand, that's for ten thousand, that's right, and when we looked at the fifteen years, that's the for fifteen years, that's again for twenty five. +for two hundred thousand, multiply that by the same, +Have, have a, have a try on, on this one, +Yes, +You start this example exactly the same, but Harry's a smoker, +And work through as the example, O K. +Have you done number three? +Good,Example three where you've got a joint life policy, the male gives you the page name, the female will give you the , because it will say joint life, and it will have the female age in groups. +Mm? +Say that's how +Joint lives, first claim, the male age will give you the page, and the female age will tell you which of those vertical column to use, where it says . +The male's thirty,so you move to thirty, +this man's, +yes, and she's thirty two, so you go to thirty, they have joint life, so you go to thirty, that's the one to use. +So you wouldn't look on the, the older +No, no, you look on the male age, look at the male age. +Right, that's always the case? +That's always the case, yes, not the older, male age for page, female age for column. +So that's the back of the thirty column? +Absolutely erm, is it escalating or level premium that they're paying. +Level +Level, so that's right, level premiums Kim, I think it's the next section down here. +It says here, +Yes, I think you've got it explained. +Thanks, yes, yes . +The reason I put them over here, was because of the level of the sum assured +Right, +But er, +The minimum level +Are we doing example four, is that alright? +Not at the moment because I haven't gone through how to do that. +Stop showing off +There you are, happy, do as you're told. +There he goes again. +yes, that's right. +, three pounds eighty, that's thirty one pounds eighteen, is that, that's right, good. +Fifteen years, is three pound eighty, yes, so, you, I think you must have gone down, yes you went down to the level one, yes? +The only thing that I'm not sure about, +Right, let's have er, er, so far, if you're a bit slower, don't worry about it, you're not going to be asked to calculate these er, in your exam tomorrow. +Er, and you can spend some time looking at it in your own time, I E, going at your own pace, over the problems. +Erm, example two then. +The sum assured for life was how much, anybody? +Example two, fifty eight, eighty two. +yes, fifty eight, eight two +Fifty eight, eighty two, +That's the premium, yes +Yes, that's the premium, I said the sum assured, sorry, I'm reading it off here. +It's the end of the day. +Er, the premium, fifty eight, eighty two, the selected period, at fifteen years of premium was? +Thirty three +thirty three +Three, thirty three +Thirty two +Eighteen, two. +Right. +Example three, the cost of the sum assured of life? +Eighty pounds seventy four. +Eighty, seventy four? +yes +And for twenty years? +Fifty five, eighty six. +Fifty five, eighty six. +Brilliant. +It's easy really, isn't it? +If you get the right column. +Yes, yes,And you're sitting there in front of a client, checking that you've got smoker and not non-smoker etcetera, etcetera. +Let's look at er, example four. +Let's not, let me put it easier. +Erm, let's say you had a client who knew how much they could afford to spend, so what you were doing then was you'd tell them how much life cover you could afford. +So let's start simply, let's say your client could actually afford forty two pounds a month. +The first thing you'd have to do, is take off the policy fee. +Remember the last thing you did was add it on, so if we say it's two pounds, we're back down to forty pounds that he's got to buy units. +If you look at any page, you'll see the bottom part of the page will tell you how much life assurance he can get for every ten pounds he's got to spend. +So if we were looking at somebody who was thirty four next birthday, and a non-smoker, which was where we started today, thirty four next birthday, non-smoker, let's have a female this time. +A single female paying level premiums, she would actually get twenty four thousand, six hundred and thirty pounds life cover for every ten pounds she's got to spend. +If she's got forty pounds left, she can have four times that. +It's easy when the figures are easy. +What are you going to then for somebody who's got thirty pounds to spend? +You take off, you've got twenty two pounds, once, twenty eight pounds once you've taken off the policy fee, but you're not going to multiply it by twenty eight, you're going to multiply by, how many tens, two point eight, yes? +The last two examples, I'm actually going to ask you to do tonight rather than keep you here this evening. +Example four, you notice it says how much cover would you, and that's you as an individual, knowing whether you smoke or not, obviously knowing your age, get if you spend thirty pounds a month with an escalating premium, and waiver of premium? +One for life and one for a selected period. +And then example five, living assurance on the same basis, but obviously you're going to get less because the risks are higher. +So I would ask you tonight, if you could work out those two sums for yourself, and see how you get on with that. +Are you going to ? +If you want it. +Erm, if somebody could spend a little bit of time with Ilias because we've got this language problem and I know that he's found this a little bit difficult, I think he would appreciate it tonight, when you get together please. +I'll leave it at that, erm, rate book, it needs practice at the end of the day. +Some of you will pick it up very simp , easily, others need to have a few tries at it. +I was talking on Sue, I was saying if you've got a client who didn't give you the convenient forty two pounds, but said you'd got forty or thirty pounds to spend, the first thing you've got to do is take off the two pounds policy fee, so you're left in this case, with thirty eight pounds. +Er, she gets that for every ten pounds she's got to spend, so you multiply it by three point eight, yes? +Oh, right. +Yes, I get it now. +Right, so where are we? +Well I'm lost at the moment. +You've lost, I've lost you on this last one, Kim have I? +It's this last one. +Let me go through it again, I, I did rush through it. +Can we just spare a couple of minutes so we can get this straight, because I did rush through it, and it was, er, obviously wrong of me. +This time, let's have this client who's aged thirty four next birthday, erm, non-smoker, it's the page we've been using, let's say our client can afford now, forty pounds, because they're likely to talk to us in terms of tens or fives, so forty pounds. +So we go to the page, thirty four next birthday,non-smoker. +Male or female? +We'll have a female,and she's paying, let's say escalating premiums. +The bottom half of the page is how much she gets for every ten pounds she's got to spend, but before we find out she's got to spend, what we've got to do is take off the policy fee. +So forty pounds minus the two pounds, or if you want to be totally accurate, two pounds and tuppence, policy fee,will leave thirty seven pounds ninety eight. +That's what she's got to spend to buy life assurance. +The other way round, we added the policy fee in last. +So it can be thirty seven ninety eight, or if you're approximating it, it can be thirty eight pounds as you wish. +When you look at the rate book, a single female, escalating, with the a sum assured for life, will come to nineteen, seven two three. +Is that right, somebody check that for me? +Say that again. +Escalating, female, thirty four next birthday, with a sum assured for life, single female. +Is that a non-smoker? +Non-smoker, yes. +What's the figure? +Thirty four, seven twenty two +Thirty four thousand seven hundred and twenty two. +Non-smoker? +I'm on living assurance, I thought that was low. +Sorry, I've got the wrong page. +, +Right, let's start again, same page, what have I got there? +Thirty four, seven two, two. +Yes, that's right. +Just testing, really, just testing. +Thirty four, seven, two, two, and that's for every ten pounds she's got to spend. +How much has she got to spend? +She's got thirty seven pounds and ninety eight. +Three point seven +It can be three point seven eight, seven nine eight, or you can just multiply and divide by ten for how many ten pounds there are. +Which ever. +You can move the decimal point, or multiply and divide by ten. +She's got thirty seven pounds ninety eight to spend, she gets that amount for every ten pounds, so you want to know how many ten pounds there are in thirty seven ninety eight, so you can write it out as a division sum or you can just move the decimal point. +Which ever you're comfortable with,, I think I'm losing my voice. +Kim has that helped? +Yes, I couldn't find that figure where you were +Good, fine, I'm not surprised, I was looking in the wrong rate book wasn't I? +So er, that's not surprising. +What about Sue? +Sue, alright? +John, alright? +Yes, fine, no, that's fine, I just don't. +, yes, Ilias, I know,y , you, you're getting there aren't you? +yes +Yes, right, I know Shirley's fine. +Andrew's fine, he's packing up, he's on his way home, +Why have I got page ? +Don't know +Actually all these pages are all lose +Oh, do you think they're coming out, they're, they're going? +It's pages thirty six to forty five, on insurance. +It's thirty five +Oh, we'll get the other one. +These are the new rate books, we've literally only had them through this week. +Erm, Gerald's pointed out a problem, could you look in your living assurance rate books and see if you go from thirty six next birthday, to forty five next birthday, on the smoker section? +No, Kim's, Kim's is alright. +Kim's is alright? +Could you check whether it's just one or +Thirty six was that? +Thirty six, look at the thirty six year old, +yes +And do you go straight to forty five? +No, no +No, I don't have that one. +Anybody else who's got a problem on the rate book. +No, that's no problem +You've got twenty eight to thirty seven? +You've given me Covermaster. +I've got one here for ninety five, is that right? +There's one at the back. +Let's have a look, no that one, that one is right. +Have you got er, a problem? +That's not right, it's on living assurance. +Right, hang on a second, I'll get you one when we've finished, I'll leave a cheque. +O K, so far so good. +So is Phil talking it through? +No, it's alright. +You're alright, good. +So, let's wrap up the day now. +In your workbook,O K? +yes, I am. +With erm, that last bit? +Well, erm, I was just trying to do it, do it, do the example four, whilst I was here, so that if I have a problem, I, I can ask about it before I go on to example five. +Well example four is yourself. +Yes, I know +Which you can do tonight, we can go over it tomorrow. +But it, it's the method of how you get it, that's the +Which is the same as, as the ones before +I, I, I was just +You multiply it by that. +Right. +And you can check it tonight with any of the colleagues in the hotel to see how you're getting on. +Yes, right. +In your workbook can I draw your attention to page seventeen. +In the? +Workbook. +I've put everything away. +We, we'll do it afterwards, O K, in a sec. +Kim, we'll get you sorted out before you go. +Covermaster, living assurance, adaptable policies, it's a summary. +It's talking about a scenario John and Mary, page seventeen. +I'd like to ask you to er, read it through, and the application form that Jeff gave you yesterday, yes? +yes +I'm going to ask you to fill in that application form as regards John and Mary as your fictitious clients, all the information is on page twenty one. +Page twenty one in the same book, the scenario comes first, then the information, for the application form. +It's a scenario. +It's a scenario, yes. +Oh, bang goes your beer tonight. +Well you didn't come up here to enjoy yourself now Philip. +No, I was just asking. +yes, it's tonight, it's filling in the application form, but we're asking you to read the scenario so you know a little bit about the people, and then this is all the information that's been gathered. +What you will have to do though, is work out the cost of the premiums, that will give you the practice with the rate books. +If you have a problem, do not worry, we'll pick it up first thing tomorrow. +No problem at all. +But I'm sure you'll probably sort it out with your colleagues way before then. +But we're not going to get tested on this? +You're not getting tested on working out premiums at all. +No test on working out premiums. +Big smile on Ilias's face. +Yes. +Just one, the information for the application form. +That's the app , the information for the application form. +When do we get to sleep? +You don't sleep, you don't sleep, Janet. +I suppose I'm going to do , that while I'm doing it for each course, +Absolutely, you could, you could actually work it all out while you're waiting for the course. +So revise Covermaster and living assurance, two separate exams on the skills, complete the application form, and the rest of you will be fine. +And the rest of the evening you can enjoy yourselves. +Kim? +When we come to revise, it's really more appropriate that we read through these +yes, they're very good, because they come, they come up with the points and the put it in the way relating to the clients, what the clients would want to know. +Any questions, what the clients would want to know. +Any questions +Yes, thank you. +A pleasant evening in the hotel, if there is a problem tonight with er, +The food. +The food taking too long, we'll ring them up tomorrow, but historically, we've found that by tonight, they've usually sorted the problem out. +I think tonight will be slower, because I mean, it's this Bird's Eye thing, and we all start +Oh, it's the Bird's Eye thing as well. +Yes, yes. +Oh right, it's a shame you won't be able to go to it then. +That's really sad. + +What time will we go to Eve's tomorrow? +If we left +She said Elizabeth and Mat +Steven gonna fetch us, about er quarter past one I think he said, have dinner round half past one he said, then +We're walking we're walking up it, at +We're walking up if it's a fine morning +Yeah +get up there some time between one and half past +I didn't hear any, did you hear any weather on the news? +oh yeah I will hear it tonight +It'll be on again later +yeah yes I wondered if David would be on bus, I saw Wendy having a he worked later today because he's got so much done on front of the er that weather he couldn't er, do any decorating outside still we never got nobbled down street providing the er canvassers +They'd all got too cold and run home I expect +this morning, but +Yeah +it was thick cold +He said there were three er, down there canvassing for the main parties and er, well quite a lot of people there and of course rich pickings for, providing they can get anybody to stop and talk to them don't know, they'd drive around +I expect so this is that +said that people are losing all interest in the election and they've got no faith in any of parties they all seemed to much alike and all fund ranges +well, er in a, in a sense it, it's, it, it been known since +Who? +they're talking none about the, the economy and turn up before the end of the year, this, the, the, they've been hanging on and on and on, and er slagging one another off all the time +Yeah +they've +but er +well both the Liberal Democrats put a candidate up anyway +Yes, I remember seeing any +Well they didn't do +if they, well, be having, well, didn't have any meetings +They left it a bit late didn't they +Yeah +really? +Maybe they had problems getting it +I wouldn't mind going to hear it if they do have a meeting +Well she's er, I don't know whether she still teaches, she did teach at Corby +Corby , yeah I saw a bit in the paper +well if she still does it didn't make it clear, and she lives at Knilton +Where's Knilton? +Well it's near +I've, I've never been there, I mean years back when we went cricket in the football one, we, we went to +playing football, but in those days Corby steel works +And you're only a village +And you're only, still a village +Yeah +yeah, but it's a, a fair size down, but er Middleton I've never been there, I don't know where it is, but it must be near Corby that worth finding on the er map +What? +We can find it on the map +Yes I expect so +To tell you the truth I've never heard of it +No +I just think that, there weren't many small villages in Northamptonshire that er well I didn't hear of, if, you know, I didn't know of, even if I hadn't visited them, but erm +Wonder if she'll be staying in Wellingborough, at least she'll have to travel +Pardon? +a lot to this constituency during the next few weeks won't she? +Did she what? +I wonder whether she would be staying in Wellingborough or +No telling, how she's got to, we all obviously she has to +Well these days in a car it's not many minutes drive is it +Yeah, no, no +from Corby and Wellingborough +makes several +unless we get a usual three inches of wet snow and that'll stop everything , you never know do you? +There's one thing a man +No snow now +Pardon? +Hope we've finished with the snow now +But there's one thing you've got to +I've said to many years now about English weather in a sense it's, it, it, it's got a something of endearing quality, you don't like going through the bad weather, but the fact is that we do get generally good weather +Yeah +at times +well there's so many areas in the world where they get lots and lots of er +Yes you know, you know what the weather's going to be like +Well you know what it's going to be like, it's sort of a set piece each, each season +Yeah +but er, you can't say that er the British are +well we can do that we had some lovely spring, that day we went up to the park it was what spring like weren't it? +Oh yeah +Now it feels cold again +It were March, February too weren't it? +That's right +Yeah, fantastic +the snowdrops there +you know I remember ever so clearly, when I worked down the Totexas, Dentons +Mm +all those years back, in the late fifties were it? +It was the fifties yeah +I was down there in the late fifties +it was nineteen forty nine +and I remember one particular February, it will always stand out in my mind because er, it's a fairly long walk done to the factory from, from here and every day after the midday meal, when I set out to walk down there as quick as I could it had been cloudy since, it was raining, every day without fail I used to get to work soaked, first +What February used to be sort of reckoned for rain didn't it? +Yeah +The way, the way they talk about March winds it was February rain they +well +you see, first in +yeah +when I got there, several times he used to scruffle into the er packing room and come out with those two, three of those well a couple of those large sheets of brown paper that they pack, yeah, pack the few boxes in +and I'm not used to that, shove them up +and, but, but +shove them up their trousers and pull the trousers up, expose the leg and wrap round paper around and that was a amazing +was that keep +and it dried the trousers out, and dried the leg and, it were lovely and cosy after +half an hour or so +backward a bit when you walked +Aye it did, but +it were a, it were a efficient way of er getting dry mm and the next day there would of +this evening +Does what? +I wondered if David had got this evening to catch a bottle of wine +Perhaps not +could be the two of them they just, when er, when Lee set out on a Saturday evening with er Kevin and they often sit there and er have a, er a bit of a snack, supper, light supper and er +Well, although you get a +in the evening anyway don't you? +Yeah, but a lot of the time +have a main meal waiting probably, have a lighter snack later on, have a glass of wine with it +Derby and Joans pair +how old is Wendy? +Is she older than David? +Wendy, she's just a little bit older than David +Is she? +four or five years I think +Ooh I didn't realize that so Dave's forty one? +Forty , forty last June, he's coming up to forty one this year +forty one in May? +Yeah +And Wendy's er +Wendy must be forty five at least +Ah, oh I didn't realize she was +unless she was, she's quite a bit older than Dave +at least she's older, but er not to that extent +I wasn't very happy about it at the time, anyway, I was, her being, I think he was only when were they married? +Seventy three, the end of seventy three and he was twenty twenty two wasn't it they were married? +She'd already been married and divorced and she was quite a bit older than him and I, I wasn't very happy about it to start, but they seem to have settled down alright +Well she's made David a good wife actually +Well they've never had any more youngsters go +Told me, she actually told me once that she considered herself lucky to er, have met David, I reckon she did because er, she, she was divorced then and er of course, didn't she have a son? +She has got a son, yeah, I don't think she sees him much now, he did come here to +that she sees much of him, he's er about twenty or more now +Yeah I was surprised that er Kathleen is it, when Kathleen told us down street about her, her son +He went in the army +Yeah, or rather +that's the older one, the one who's friend of Mat's? +That's right yeah, for a little bit, I was on about the reference to er Embassy Service though +He'd a, he had some sort of operation or something, it's not, but at Debbie's wedding, Andrew weren't there because he some operation on his jaw or something that, can't remember now what it, what he'd had done were having his jaw bone +Oh yes I remember him, yeah, they were a bit concerned, well I would have been, and then +lucky with their +I was gonna say +jolly lucky whether they er, whether they all turn up on Friday to er, have a word with Eileen I don't know +Ah yes I think they all know he's coming now. +Does Steve know? +Well we told her last +Oh was she so +when she came up last Saturday +Oh did you? +Oh, thank god for that Michael knows, Michael's manager he knows, did you tell him? +Yeah I told Michael, I phoned him this morning +Brian knows +Yes +come here +I've got some bits in there for her a few kittens in there for a couple of days I, so they'd go up, pick them up and they get left +Well we'll pop down, oh we can't pop down tomorrow unless we go before, get in the morning, before we go to work across to Steve's, if it's fine it'll be a good walk over there +No I don't mind walking if it's fine, I said to Sandra +so, we take +providing it's not raining +we'll take, we will take that she ought to go +won't it be muddy? +well we know I shall go through the fields, but we can still take the short er cut through the estate up Bedford Road, by the cemetery +Yeah, doesn't +pass up by there? +So you go through the cemetery +I well, you can go through the cemetery, yes, you can go through there +Well I didn't know where it was near a path +and then you go +well is it likely to be in the +you go in at the top of +the church is +top of the road, what road's that running off from er High Street, South +Mm, yeah +can't remember +Stones Lane, I'd got used to Manners Lane, they call it something quite +since they've built up there, Mannings, Mannings Street or Mannings +You, you put down that you +escape there and +yeah +and that's the best way, it'll er, oh you'll save ten minutes easy, it's a fair walk it, on the main road +I was hoping when they got that link road through they might connect up, but I don't suppose it, sort of roads gotta put parking towards the long piece of +Oh no, it won't be a +major road +it's just +no I'm afraid there'll be no footpath there, in fact, it hurts me a bit that because they're cutting straight, they're cutting along in line with that pub public +Yeah +footpath +One thing if they +it's nothing wrong with +if they put a cycle path along the edge of each road when they build them +No, they're not as sensible as they are you remember in Prestley when we went there so what er, perhaps, especially for solid places, solid with the roads in Germany +Oh in Germany yes there's +you've got priority there, +statue and cross over. +I mean it, it's incredible in +we, we went to, we travelled about a bit while we were there went into Holland and er came via through Belgium and Holland just to get there, and look how tidy +But before we went down into the +the towns were +tried to borrow a bike for us so that we could bike round, but when she +Oh +she probably failed to er look +it's not as if there's anywhere where you can hire a bike I'm sure you know, but, I suppose you're going along on the road, across the road I +course that's, that's the beauty of er biking it up the hill, that's some, there's so much scope for not being on the road, you've got special baths for someone +Yeah +the only one I want to know in this area is a, you can +the one between the +that's it +they put that there when they built that new school +they did that for the school children +so that the +children could find the school +yeah and that's the only one I know of it's incredible to me either +Is it raining again? +No it could do in a moment or two though it er, it looks a bit ominous, you rub one or two er doubts, they are similar colour to these actually +Is that, that the first one that's opening a creamy coloured one? +Yes oh this Ellerdor is er playing around a bit now +Yeah +but it's not as spectacular, not a very spectacular sight is it? +What that erm +Ellerdor +Oh it said in the, in the book when I read about it, it said it had green flowers, you say is that green flowers +I didn't even know there were any green flowers +I'd never even noticed the one next door, but the herb must have come from that +No, er Jane spotted cos she said that's where the seed must have come from +Yeah +she said they seed freely, so we'll have to watch we shall have them all over the garden next year +Oh when you , when they've flown +Yeah +she's +cos er she said she's only got one she'd like another, and +that we've got two, she should have this, smaller one down here +Yeah +I'll dig it out for her +What time we taking +I don't know, when you like, +back over with you, I'll sort something out while I've got some small change in me purse now I've been shopping, I'll sort it out +there's another five, there's another five +Mm, you've +Is there two? +You've got some er, have much have you got upstairs to change? +You've got er nine upstairs to change haven't you? +Yes I know I'll take it when I go down to the post office and I keep forgetting, don't like bothering with it on Thursday because they've always got a shop full and I go +any other day +These tomatoes are a bit hard, did you know? +They're what? +The tomatoes you bought down the market +They're what? +They're a little bit hard +Well there was some marked firm tomatoes, then there were the others, I had some of the others +It looks more +well I skinned them +if they were firmer than these +I'll have skinned a couple of them +well these, these are, there, I mean in, they, they'll are +without er, the other fruit +No , the ones at the front of the store were for seventy P and they were marked firmed tomatoes, the others at the back were sixty P and they didn't say firm on them so I thought well, firm probably means hard, I'll get the, get the others, so I'll skinned a couple of them for tea +Oh they're alright though +anyway, I've got to go upstairs, oh +I saw some nice Cox's orange on the market two pounds for a pound +Mm, I +to eat +well these looked er really nice and ripe +Oh +If I worked magic, things that were tragic, would have no place beneath my waving wand. +With great magicians I'll sit and converse, the whole universe would seem like a little pond, deer would swim by and as it swam by, ravage by war neglect and in great pain, I'll take it out just to wipe its poor face clean and then quietly put it back again, if I worked magic, magic +Yeah, what do you think to it? +That was really good, yeah, good tenner +What have I, well I haven't to, I've got to fit the erm cord symbols, you know, get the sequence of cords, I've written it down you see +Are you gonna piano rise it then? +I, yes that's why I arrive, piano er score for it, and er it's a sort of fairy tale lyric you know, I've +Very Paul McCartneyish, reminds me of him. +A bit changeable but er +Yeah, sort of thing that he'd be writing down +it's not a bad melody, I thought I'd get it down, and record it. +It sounds good +But if Lisa er would be plain and have a chat, put your +I think it might be a good id , I don't know whether, Lisa would like it better if you would let her know and let her get Kev talking on it, which perhaps be a better idea if she was in on it, but I'll, I'll have a word with her +Yeah, have a word with her and perhaps she'll like to listen to that to the er words sort of that, and then make her own comments, it's nice to get the opinions you know, the, the many of the family as you can +Really, I'm the sort +and er, it helps me to, it's only a hobby, you know, but er, it's one that I've had for donkey years, I want to er keep going with it as long as I can +Like somebody, somebody said on the radio the other day, everybody's got a song inside them +That's true +Some have more than one +Well I know +but I mean I, I expect it's true, everybody does well even those who er, well people who turn now, they must have, voices I'm told about work and they could er +Yeah +write lyrics and er +well I refer +music +yeah, yeah, I suppose I'm what you call tone and deaf, I've got no music +at all +oh you were telling me, you used to +Oh David and me, oh yeah +Oh Dave, yeah, have you heard from Dave , you used to make +Oh yeah +He did it on the guitar and you were simply found a few words and +yeah yeah it's true +it was a long time ago but as I recall they weren't too bad, to even, if you'd have stuck at it, you'd have got better, it's the same with every job you get better at +Yeah, oh that's true, yeah +if you tackle it, even go out there, or wine making come to that +No everything painting and decorating +Even painting and decorating Dave as you say +yes, we're not in the rain no +no, no, why you not going to that anyway because er +Well I tried yesterday, but I got wet +How long were you there? +About four hours came home when it rained and then it stayed dry +I think it must have rained in Erchester not here though +It poured, round about twelve, twelve thirty not like this like heavy +No I don't record +poured but +like er +but this, we got some solid rain +we did have a bit +Yeah +but er, you got more, you, of course you were nearer the river +Yeah that's true +It's time we could do with it +I know we need it, but, I would have been anywhere at the moment though +Ha, about twenty inches we need, is it two months? +Well, forget about that +Oh, we'd go down +, just see them all paddling in the +well this is the most, this is the most rain we've had for in such a period, no, in, in about a week something like that +Yeah, yeah +It's sort of rained +it's strange, because er last month and the month I wouldn't associate with rain and that November with distant fog, fallen leaves and +Yeah, well +just to +It'll do a lot of good I mean I've put both plants out during the week, they were fairly dry then, but now if you'd see that, that, they've taken already +Oh definitely this is sort of herb job +Yes, this is what I mean +Cor dear I wish I could +Tell when you gotta have knowing +Is that, that plant, yeah +usually down the front there, somewhere +Haven't got any +have you? +No, I have not +Oh, what a minute, what? +I, well I the erm, what er, herbs up underneath the apple tree +Do what? +the herbs under the apple tree, what are they? +Sorry I can't, I can't see against the window +The herbs under the apple tree, what are they? +Chives +Chives +Oh +sorry +I thought we gave Wendy some last year +Yeah, +do what dear? +No, he wants some +Oh, I've never heard, well I've heard of it, but I've never seen it +As for a recipe, you pick these recipes up and that's a stupid blooming herb +This paper's +Taunton in Devon +Good old +Hurry up then, come paying, there's a shopping precinct in Taunton, Devon +Did you see the name of +town of Somerset +Did you see +What? +the name of the erm +That's unusual for the Observer +the Raving Loony Party member who's +Paddy Ashdown +Yes +Patrick Ashdown +Oh that's it Patrick I'm, I saw the Patrick Ashdown, I didn't know what +his real name isn't Patrick, it's John +Yeah, I mean it's a bit, a bit naughty in a way innit? +Yeah +There could be a few older people that could make +it could be confusing cos people +Here you get +Although it does now say on paper what party they are, it never used to +No +but it does now, it does have a party as well as a name on the election paper +Well, a lot of old folk er, I don't think they're much bothered what they say, they know the name of the candidates and they seemed to +that's for the name, yeah so ,so , some of them will be confused, but not enough for them to have any problems I shouldn't have thought. +Did you get +I think they hold the balance at the end don't they? +Oh I think +getting in this er, seat it er +I bet it, as regards it cut down to about five +five, probably less +and Freda will get in as well +There's no doubt who the majority will go well most of it +Powell will lose his seat +but Freeman Fry will be +But I don't like the way he'd er, all this, all about er how you'll be annually taxed under Labour because the truth is that even under the Conservatives, all the years they've been in, and all the years they've been reducing tax, taxes from time to time, indirect taxation increased +Oh I know, you only got to look at the VAT ain't you for starters +Yeah , taxation now if anything is harder than it was in seventy nine +Yeah +they shouldn't talk +I, I, I'd would teach them to stand up and tell them the truth, there don't appear to be too many of them about these days +Well it's just brought out a budget to paper over a few cracks and make it look good because they knew that, they've got no more chances this is it innit? +I think +Well do you think this really impress er Lisa? +I'll have a word with her when she's awake, she's still on a third dream I should think at the moment but she's er, certainly good talking, I could, I could try and get her without her knowing about it and see what happens, just dinner time I'll take it down and try it, oh you're gonna take it round Steve's ain't you? +Today +Oh yes well you can perhaps do it tomorrow +Yes, through the week some time +do it a good turn if you could er +Well they normally stay in now, er, Monday and Tuesdays usually Lisa and Kev stay in with us and watch the telly with us they go, he plays pool Wednesday +Do they stay in on er, Sundays do they all +Well generally he comes up for dinner, but he ain't today so he'll be Rhys will come, be in for dinner, he'll turn up about three, and they sometimes stay, we sometimes play game in the afternoon, board game or something, it depends +Steve, you see, they often get +Why, why bother about the football this afternoon? +See he'll watch it and all +Man City and Southampton ain't it? +Yeah +Yeah, don't bother me none as long as Southampton win mind you +Well Southampton er can pull er +Reg see where Tottenham are in the league? +Pardon? +See where Tottenham are in the league? +No +They're about six from the bottom ain't they? +They lost at home again yesterday they shall find themselves some trouble if they don't buck their ideas up whether they're lacking or not +Well they're +I expect +well they're +Well it, the way they started off in that cup final, last year +Yeah +they're a danger to life aren't they? +Yeah it's terrible really +I've had him off with that first foul in the first minute, that he committed, ridiculous +Were Lineker weren't playing where he? +No +Not yesterday? +No +All raving about Rob Jones +down again +yep afraid so can you +get wound up +I know,would wouldn't surprise me either +Pity you know +He said that's half the reason that Brian Tolbrook took over at Tettron ain't it?, +I think he had his eyes, he'd got his eyes on Tettron replacing +Yeah +in the league +he probably looked into the future a bit and decided that er +yeah +well it cost them a hundred thousand to do it, but, I mean he's never been able to afford the +yeah and he's deciding that Adam and he's deciding that Adam weren't worth it and +Yeah +went for it, but +well he apparently spoke to erm, he had quite a lengthy conversation with Ron Atkinson apparently, cos Atkinson used to be the manager of Tettron didn't he? +And he was telling them you know what a a good club it could be, it's the ground +they opened their own ground as well you see, but that was +and, I mean don't, he's upset that +a wound up, I mean if there was a league team like Kettering, Kettering like the fourth division, that would be brilliant be nearer to go wouldn't it? +Why they all have such a large ground +I've never seen it +I remember going there +bet it's got four star pitches +after the war and there +and they had a record gate +It isn't a ground +near a ten, near the ground size of Kettering's +but they've got to, I remember when Rhys played in that, the F A bars quarter final, two seasons ago down here, they got well over a thousand down there then, and you just couldn't move, that were brilliant, all the way round the ground there were about four of five people deep +there's +ground, it's a shame because +no point for promotion and weren't allowed to go off, cos of the state of the ground +I know that +but they could win the league this, this season and not go up +That's right +The Taylor reports got a lot to answer for really +How did they get on yesterday? +Don't think they played +Well somebody said they're at Grantham +Were they? +It weren't in my paper this morning +Well check it on the er back page inside +got to be the +they weren't in the ordinary fixed roll +re-arranged +you see I met an old work mate of mine he said they were at Grantham +No +Well they're on the +though, weren't he? +In the paper I saw they were supposed to been at Bury but they played Bilston, Bedford +Oh, that's right, you did say didn't you? +Ann's gotta take my erm thingy in, my erm what's it +Game +Your game oh well +Windfall was it? +No, no +What's a what's it? +erm, you, you know your computer, your thingy +oh the Amstrad? +yeah +ye , no, the Amstrad +The Amstrad? +Yeah, I had a choice to take that in +mm +Do you want a biscuit Gem? +Were +yeah +Oh yes, suppose so, fine dad, no +er, I'll leave them on there +Right-y-oh, help yourselves +David's been up +Make sure somebody saying what +yeah +work +Check on the football results and that +Oh, I see +Nan he erm don't take them in every lesson +Oh +takes them in like erm turn it around every week, don't know yet +how often do you do french? +Four times a week +Four times a week +That's quite a lot for a +She said, she said four times yesterday +Oh +Science we have twice a week, but, it's double lessons +Oh +So I'd rather have it four times +yeah +er +we have +do you do cookery? +No +Well she done a bit didn't you? +You made them cakes that time didn't you? +Mm +She's done +on birthdays you go to a swimming club, at lunch time and your mates are there. +another year where your +mm +year ain't you? +Yeah, must be later on +I know Michael said Laura was doing some cookery, what was it he said? +What see if I go, have I got something that Laura wanted cookery, I've forgot what she wanted now, I forget what she said it were, she was making see that bit about you, about you +No not yet I've +I didn't read the very far +Well she copes because she had the same problem as me with her hands if she's writing for long, her hands ache, so she can write a longer letter if she types, so I said I, I didn't really, I like a hand written letter best it seems more personal somehow, perhaps they do, having a typed letter means you can send a longer one, they all mean +Does she perhaps get with a, a +Well I do, I +write, it's now I have to ache, I, I wait a few minutes and then I, go on again when me hands had a rest +Well my hands ache +been in the garden last week, about +Yeah , that's where the fun is +If I'm holding anything, so that I'm holding the hand in one position for a long time +Yeah mine do that +They inject it in into animals +Yeah +and er, and satisfactory results +oh +and of course there's, there's a lot of the testing +yet before they can er decide to, inject into you +yeah +but they think that they could er be on the way to er actually making a +cure +I see +asthma's wound up, they reckon they've found a cure for that +yeah +now +central +what's it, been on the television about it +There's now a cause Flo, it's a cause , they've found a cause +Yeah +Yeah +I saw something on the television today it's sitting there said they've a cause about it +Yeah, yeah, yeah +They say a cause +It won't be long +They can, they can work on it even further then, can't they, you know, to +They can look for something +yeah +that'll be a brilliant breakthrough +Well it would several of us have rheumatoid arthritis +yeah +I'll never, never +And a +on +went back to my unit during the war +yeah +I, I helped a young girl get an old lady onto the er train +mm +and I, I, probably only a youngster then, well I was about twenty six or seven, but er, I shall never forget her fingers were like claws she couldn't move them they'd sort of set +Ooh +Oh how awful +clenched +lord terrible +this is different from the sort that we get, it, it, it doesn't only affect older people, children get it, it's so +Yeah I know +crippled with hands and +Well this old lady well she was +Yeah +terrible she was +yeah +helpless +I mean to tell you that I'd seen old Ken +Well how's he getting on? +Well, he's had several heart attacks, he's been in hospital +Well I knew he was going in, he told her +Yeah, he's had several heart attacks +How long they keep him in do you know? +He were in there eight weeks +sshh +oh dear +yeah and +well what the first thing he do and he has to go in the +no, no, they leave her in the home +oh +It doesn't seem that long they'd taken her out +No he told me, he actually told me, they hadn't got a bed for him, they hadn't got a bed for him, so they looked after his own, the bungalow +Anybody in his er +change of health, never looks after them afterwards +does she? +erm +They always have someone go in every day anyway +There's, there's a nurse goes in to bath her everyday, put her in the bath, so then there's the home help visit, the +yeah she's bedridden, she can't get out +no, no, oh no, no +you can claim +she's bedridden, she can't do anything +you know +as well +It's awful ain't it? +Yeah +But I mean er, a man in his state of health never ought to be left to look after a woman like that, but different if it's an ablebodied +umping disgraceful +I think it's disgraceful +Christine's only my age, I was at school with her +Yeah +Yeah +achieve don't I, but I mean +we knew Chris by error, but he's got a +but he don't make any +she's been bedridden for twenty years now or whatever +no he didn't +perhaps when I see +start thinking I'm getting old +yeah that's old er +, still +yeah +it's funny, you don't feel any older inside it +I'm not old +you, you speaking for yourself, now you know +Why do you feel older? +What, what you mean +Well, oh, me eighty two years +and you just speak for yourself +imagine her when I'm eighty how I'll feel +Yeah he done a real good time +Gemma's got a long way to go before she gets to eighty +You're not twelve yet are you? +No +When she goes back she didn't say anything about Kevin, it must have been a +come to England, she, she said +Probably see Deborah soon +but er she didn't say +probably make sure when she's coming +anything about coming, and yet Jenny came up and told me that she was coming on Friday, er before I got that letter, got that letter the next day +Oh, didn't know they were coming +Mhm +She must of erm got +I don't know how long the letters take, when they come by air +You'd think she'd got +A nice little red wine +It is nice +Yeah very nice +Oh yeah +Yeah +Yeah, I'd like to go +And me +and you, yeah take the animals with +said I was gonna try and learn a bit of German before I went again +Laura's learning German and she's at school +Bloody, Ruth left er, were they married? +She left him, hasn't she? +Yeah +Yeah , that's right, yeah +yeah, they do these days +They've erm +he tried to get into the house Rhys were +I didn't know +But she came back +yeah but couldn't get in though +Well you'd have somebody had to go in with her to make sure she didn't take anything that belongs to him +Well +Didn't he run a market stall? +Yes dad, but, apparently enough he got into a lot of trouble with the tax +Oh, they're, they're after him like you know +The policeman up several times +The police have been up several times, you know that attache case I said the dustman found that time? +Yeah +Well that was something to do with him apparently enough +Police came up, they've been up, we've seen them up there several times +yeah, so +What, been selling dodgy +or something +Pay your tax a day as you must +Oh +He's not been paying, but I suppose, with a business like that it'd be V A T wouldn't it? +Yeah, I bet you +Wouldn't it? +dodgy stuff +yeah V A T, be V A T thought it would +Get paid in tax and er don't have to make any record up +That's right yeah, yeah +It could be direct tax as well they may not, they'd may not have declared er +Oh that's correct, yeah +He's probably earning you see, I mean +yeah +with a lock up in store +and a +around, yeah you'll get round do you good and well in work +When Betty left, I, I +He went, he went the clothes mostly had in London +oh he went all over the place with that +What thirty quid market +I don't know whether Pettitcoat Lane, but I know he went up to London +Honest, honest +well he always seemed to me to be a bit of wise guy +Oh yeah he is, he is +long, long conversation of +I've corrected her once about it +er, he told me how +Ah, shame that +Well he's got a lot of fishing equipment and I said you're a keen fisherman then, all walk in +and mentioned it in passing, you know, and he said er, yes, he said er I've started +would you like one? +I said well, of course I would +Yeah +how much do you want? +But I never got one +no, no +I didn't expect one either so naturally I wasn't disappointed +no +well although he told me he'd er, he'd, well he'd had a reasonable catch he'd er, remember them, bring one up +Well that's a trout we had Wendy gave us didn't she? +Yeah, it was nice weren't it? +But her +fellow got two +That's right +a sea fisherman in Erchester and +Yeah, yeah +what's his name? +mm +was it, no it's Church isn't it? +What? +the chap at er +I don't know his name +I think he's name's Church see I work with a, a young chap from Wellingborough, Graham and er, he and his brother in law always went round the reservoir, Ramsthorpe, Grantham +Oh I know +that your dad was working +Solhall +Then we came out by Buckingham Palace and somebody had or +the queen's home, the flag was flying +Ah +so Lisa said can we go in to see her +She's only six, I said yes we'll just knock on the door and say I'm Lisa I've come to tea +Anyway cheers +Cheers Dave +Is that the +Well they're sparkling over +Mm, they're nice +They're better for you that way though ain't they? +Oh +You could produce them +or the bananas, scrub out er, quarter of an hour or so +Mm +then strain the usual, and just use the juice +oh +use a chopper all the way +oh I see +it'll give you +Put plenty of lime in +wine with a stronger body +oh +How's your growing in +What about that dragon trap? +Too many long +Haven't seen it yet +Oh +I mean it's not what you can tell +that time we went with him, we saw the +It needs +don't it? +oh +When Gem was up here the other day she was telling us about one of them teachers who plays computer games instead of giving lessons +Oh +Ah +who +Amstrad +Ah Amstrad eh? +In science I think she said wasn't it? +Yeah +Well that's alright innit? +Yeah, they were playing Batman games it's a new computer +Yeah I think some of the teachers +Do you like them +Would you like a biscuit too with your wine? +Yes please dad, you can, yes please +Yeah, do you remember that time with +What? +bought a ticket then. +Right, who's where? +Doesn't matter really, don't think it matters. +Well I've put the two girls on the end. +Oh right +No +No Emily don't want it where do you wanna sit then? +Here +Alright well go there +Alright +Where you gonna sit? +There or there? +This one or that one? +Make your mind up +She's not sitting near me +You'll be a rose in between two thorns there +Right I'll bring a cloth in so you can get +start +Can I have er drink mummy? +I say, go and get yourself something +You'll have to get yourself something +Oh, can I have wine and lemonade? +No you're not having wine and lemonade +Can I mummy? +No +You're not big enough to drink wine +Can I? +Can we? +No +Say please +Can we daddy mummy, mummy +What? +can we? +No +No I said +Pardon? +There was +in there, there's a table in there +Oh you could +Yeah +Not much though is it? +unfortunately +No, if, if +What? +It's only about three ain't it? +What? +How old's your dad? +Three, he's twenty, thirty seven +Right, always have to ask +how old he is, ah love?ah? +Right, that's old +I never know when anybody is, I know what year they were born, I have to count it up and see how old +I know how old mummy is +I'm meant to be twelve +Here are +I'm eight nan, I'm eight in April +You'll be eight this year +eight +you'll be eight in May +April +April, April +and I want, mum I want +Yeah help yourself +I will +I know how +Peas, carrots +I know how I want, an onion +sprouts and a bit of cauliflower +I know how old mummy is, she's forty +Sshh +Roast potatoes? +Here are, go on +I'm not having carrots +Why not? +Roast parsnip , do you want some roast potato? +No +Thank you +Mash potato? +Please +How much do you want? +Pass me +oh dear +cat fish +will that do? +I didn't bring the +Ben +How are the roast potatoes done? +Do you want one? +Yeah please, I've done two each for us +Why is he +George, why, we'll swap over +I want, I want the gravy, can I have the gravy? +Oh that reminds me mum, where's my shoes, where's my diet pepsi? +I, still haven't got it +You get +don't you? +I got cake +Er +yeah I want +What? +Have a bit more, no they they've got them, cos they don't like it when it's done round the meat +Yeah alright +and mum and Steve got a leg so you can help yourself +Don't you want some coffee? +Yeah, I will have a bit +Do you want a roast mum? +Er a roast potato? +Er no thanks +Try and +I'm supposed to, watching me diet and I haven't been eating roast potatoes +Why you been on +mummy +What else haven't you got? +Peas and carrots +What you want? +Gravy +do you want +yes please er Sandra +Er parsnips, Fred parsnips? +Yes, I've a had two roast parsnips it a +You got gravy? +Mm, yes thanks +I'm rather partial to parsnips I'm +Brings the flavour to it +Yeah +Once we had , once we had big ones better +They're big enough aren't they? +You want +Er they're amazing these seeing +Oh I know +I know when he was a kiddy he'd never eat them +I know, have you got your parsnip? +Me, I +it is tasty isn't it? +no, have some more +right +Steve call it gravy, I call it +Doesn't, why? +I thought it was +I call circles squircles +You call what? +Pass the +Circles squircles +Squircles? +Mm +Oh that comes from that game you play with the cards don't it, when you call it +What +She doesn't call it squircles +No +I should think a squircle is an irregular circle is it not? +No, it came about because she put down a what card and I +to say squares and circles +Squares and circles +oh, she couldn't make up her mind and it come out squircles +Innit? +It's funny how names like that stick when, you know, it's +the child will say something +yeah +and you, you pick it up +It's obviously +Squircle +What? +Can we play a game after din-dins? +Lindard +What's that? +Oh +Mum +You got pepper, you want pepper? +I've had some thanks er Sandra yeah +Oh you've had some , where's the top to that one? +I don't know mum +Oh it's over here +What don't you know? +Daddy +Are these the garden parsnips? +Yeah +Very nice +Yeah +Yeah we picked them yesterday +Once you had big, big, big ones, didn't we daddy? +Got early potatoes then yet? +No not yet +Well it's pretty quick yet +Er there ain't no trays +Bit late for +ain't it? +Mum is that one more , one, four, one, four, one? +Yeah that , no I can't +You'll want to wait till the end of the month before I put mine in +Have I got alcohol? +I've probably put them in +Yeah +Well that's the foremost for August +Oh dear +Mm +well I'll have to work out how many I need, I might need some more yet +More what? +That broom I've got, cos I, I took the rest of them bushes out +Did he? +No +What are you gonna put in with them? +Are we gonna play a game afterwards? +I spoke to +If you like , what do you want to play? +Erm Cluedo? +Mm +Cluedo? +I can mix it around and carrots and the +Cluedo +parsnips and the fruit and veg +Yeah, I don't mind +will be on this side, and the +or see what the others want to do +beans and peas and +Do you want to play a game after this? +all the +will be main bit +Yes when we're finished. +Good idea rotation plot +Cluedo? +We're gonna play a game of Cluedo +What now? +after din-dins +I can't play it +dinner and din-dins +I can't play Cluedo after all these roast potatoes +I've only ever guessed that right once, a day over at Marion's once and that'll be break +Did you work it out or was it a guess? +Mm? +Did you work it out or was it a guess? +I worked it out from what cards I'd got and what I knew somebody else hadn't got +We all went round with +and we're all pounding this little +dad's go and he got the wrong weapon, he crossed out the wrong one on his list +I went, the last time I played it, which was erm, about few weeks back, few weeks back, I had all the +I had all of the cards and +All at one time? +all one time cards, all of them and it, there was a thing +in, but, and, you took +those were weapons , yeah +weapons, and it was the dagger and you couldn't work it out and kept on asking +I did +her, I kept on asking her +I've got there first +Only because I got, I had to go out of it +Have you done any with your lace making kit yet? +Mm +Not a lot +You haven't, you haven't +seem to have had, like, enough spare time to sit down and +No +you know, really study it +Can I have some more gravy please mum? +Not too hot is it? +Where did they come from? +It was +when they had it at +Oh +at Christmas, I got him the beef +Nice beef +from Budgen's, when erm ah, you know at Chris , Christmas they had it down at one seventy nine a pound, didn't they? +Mm +And I got this big bit then, put it in the freezer +Lovely +I wished I'd have bought some more now +Is it +So do I +He didn't go out +That's one advantage of having a big freezer you can get things when, when there's a bargain going +Mm, yeah +We've got two little freezers we have +Oh they've got a couple of erm these +down the market don't they? +Mm , I've never been there +We went round it I often er +Have you ever been to that Corby market? +No, David has though +Yeah, supposed to be good +erm, one of the er chaps that come to work and he's always on Corby that's what David told us +What sort of stall? +Oh a stall of mixed each you know? +No +I think he provides game as well, +like parsnip +Got a bus pass token now, so +you can travel round by the bus, or round the neighbourhood +Yeah +fares are already paid now +got that +Mm +on the bus a bit when the weather improves I shall like to go to Harrendle +But whether it was still +you can get, get to Harrendle and Peterborough on the bus now +Oh can you? +I didn't know +what all those yellows +well they go in the week, you can on a Saturday +You get six pound +seven pound fifty, on these +thirty pounds worth ain't it? +Oh yes, thirty +Thirty pounds with each, were fifteen pound +Mm +For fifteen pound? +about sixty, yeah, because, say you pay out a quarter of the price from, you there +What you get a book of tokens or something? +No it's +No they're, they're little silver thingies +Take them out as you use them? +Well they're useful +No +on that little rider that's always +so far, and then we go on that at least once a week when we've been shopping +Mm +it's +it stops outside the gate +Are those the +Those are they +Let's have a look +They're like toy money aren't they? +You get , you get them in ten pound batch +Yeah +Aluminium +How do you know? +What? +That it's safe +Oh you can tell +How? +against the light +The difference how, for erm +as well, can't you? +you can use them as +you've got a list of +with a list of +firms you can and +and you +so you can take them as well, don't they? +Mm, mm +If you book Serve +Serve, yeah Serve takes them, yeah I know +You can use them on +Oh can you? +Ooh +Well er Fred and his wife went several times on them last year +Oh +Is that, I thought that the card and Serve take it out for the doctors a few weeks back when he got your bronchitis and you weren't too well and erm, car picked him up and took him up there, then you get +he walked back, it was a nice day +Oh no +he walked back +You'd pay for that, ride back +I wrote to Eileen I said about your dad had a hundred and four and I said er, I'd a, sent a taxi from Serve to take him up, I said then he dismissed the driver and see he walked back, and I +before I left, is er, got a mental pict , when you said dismissing the driver, mental picture of the, this chap in a cock cap and that, and your dad saying alright James it's enough +I'll walk back +I don't know how long you'll be in there, but I'll just go off now +to er, old +well I said well you mean +are you? +No problem mate I'll walk now, are you sure he say? +I said yes, I've walked +it were that nice well I tale it all the veggies were your own produce? +Oh not bad , no not the cauliflower +Oh +I bought that yesterday, over the market, this spreads hard nan cos we run out +Oh, oh we've run out of 'tatoes as well we've run out of carrot and peas +We're +I thought we'd never end them +That's right +Right but we did +Mum +carrots are +Carrots are, yeah +Carrots are, yeah +Oh +Emily eat a bit more please +We do more carrots next year +Goody +Got to get me parsnips out +So your spuds have lasted well haven't they? +Yeah, yeah +Yeah, erm +Perhaps I'll, I'll pop it down +not at much room this year, so +What +put more carrots +I've got twenty one pound of seed, I had +Mum +twenty eight pounds last year +can I have a tissue please? +Well I've got fourteen pounds +I should have more peas and beans this year +And carrots +And carrots +Yeah I think I'll +give those er beans you grew last year will grow this year Steve +Oh +Yeah +aren't they? +well +Mum +Mm +if I eat this, can I er, can I leave the rest? +Oh +Some more mum? +Mm little +Yes please , +for nan +yes please +I had a glass and a half of your dad's home made wine before we came out +Oh I +I'll be half asleep all afternoon +What is it +Spanish? +Don't, Debbie usually come in er, Sunday morning, but er what, they've got somewhere else to go today +What's that there? +so they didn't come, and I didn't go out and Gemma came up and I was sitting there talking and they had a drop, drop of wine and I had one with erm and Gemma finished her biscuits up, we've got to get some more biscuits now Gemma brings her +right up to me now +Oh does she? +, well I didn't, I didn't do it for her +I just gave her a bit of a hand and these sort of questions where they've got so many alternatives answers to fill the spaces +Yeah +Finished them at school +You finished them at school? +Yeah +Are they ripe? +Do you want any more mum? +Yeah +Mm +Anything else, any more? +Aagh +Erm, well I couldn't really, +pudding then? +Oh +Yeah +Mm, very funny yorkshire pudding , that's one of the things I, say I shouldn't eat that is on that, those yorkshire puddings, but I'm having a holiday today +Actually , actually had a fried egg for breakfast today for the first time +Nan +in a couple of months +scrambled in the morning +Nan nan +Mm +There's some more meat if +can I have +anybody want's it, I +nan +Yeah +why, erm, at Dawn's we erm done this thing, and it was sort of, there was four sides of it and it was one, then there was two inside, well there was one at the back, erm, Henry and Mrs said when you get these back you'll see what you've got, and people, she said, people who have got over twenty of er, the better than the people who are lower and I got twenty one +Oh did you? +What was it then, a test? +Yeah we had a French test and, erm +no thirty out the lot +I was very , Martin got forty three, then White got forty one, Lorraine only got forty +and no one else got that many, forty one +Alison is in Amsterdam +Oh is she? +gone with the, the, from the college there, she's been on an art course and they're going round er, art galleries and museums and places like that +Oh yeah +for ten days she's there +Oh +I'm leaving that mum +Eat your veg +actually married and said she wasn't looking forward to going, but I'd imagined she would enjoy it when she got there +Mm +She wasn't? +Mm? +She wasn't looking forward to go +Yeah that's right +How +Is it compulsory, yeah? +Well it was part of their course I think, I, they didn't they paid the full cost of it, they contributed a bit, but I think Colin stood +That's what we're doing innit mummy? +Yeah, she's going through they, is Gemma going? +No +Oh, she's going to, on day trips to France in July isn't she? +I'm going to London +Oh +I'm going to London museum +What they charge for that? +No +Mum when are we going to London museum? +Thirty five +I shall have ten pound deposit and I think there's twenty five pound left to pay. +Oh +Thirty five, but that includes the meal as well, they'd have had a meal in the restaurant there won't you? +Yeah +It's a long day though +It is +Yes I know +and leave what half past? +Yeah it used to be +They leave at half past four in the morning and get back just after midnight +Yeah +Five past +Yes I remember some of the others going. +Sarah went when she was at school +When you going next Friday? +She said +They usually go from +I know +somewhere close, Bouloigne or somewhere on the +I suppose they're going to Bouloigne +Yeah we're going to Bouloigne +Mum I know Julia's trying to find out I needn't go to school on Thursday so I can have a lie in +So why she'd like to go to France on +one of those day trips to +Wish we co , if we're going on Friday yeah +Too much of a strain going over and back +She's still at school, she's not at home +You don't miss a day off school just because you're going to France for a day +Yeah, but the next day we'll have to have +a lie in +No +Only if they speak English +I'm going to London +Only if they speak English +to speak English? +What with the school? +Round London, yeah +British museum? +The Toy +Which British museum they going to? +Famous one +Oh no. +First time I went to London, I was about as old as Emily, I went with, we went with the Brownies for the trip, we went to the zoo +They have +A museum of childhood +Why? +within childhood I think it's called +Oh, what's it like, toys thing +Toys yeah, yeah +First time I went to the zoo I was erm +I've never seen , the queen's doll's house at Windsor Castle +No +Bethnal Green , Museum of childhood +see erm, when we went to Windsor on the boat wasn't it, when we were going up and down the Thames +Thursday March +Oh +Yeah +Thursday March, twenty fourth +a week on Tuesday +Tuesday March the twenty fourth +Mm +When's Mother's day? +Very nice +Two week's today +should be nice +twenty ninth? +a full set of toys that people used to play with in the old days, and that sort of thing +Jolly +That's gonna be a long day because the don't get back until about six o'clock at night +What time do they start? +Well I presume, it doesn't say, I presume round about nine o'clock +Mm +Is +Emily? +Do they get them there or does take pack +I'm going as well +You're going with them? +Yeah, +penny +and I, I'm going to help +Lucy had, I've had frog's legs +You have not +Now then, what about Penny do you want +Mum's having Penny +Oh, mm +How about, have you ever had frog's legs? +You put some gravy on that +No, but they're very nice you can take it from me +Snails eat snails, escargot +I'm, I had, I used to +What? +Don't know if I want to go to +have frog's legs +No you did not +I did, well +On one of these trips to London when I was at school, good when we went with the Brownies, I went two or three times and er, one time when I was a bit older, I mean the first time I went as I say I was only about seven, but, when I was a bit older I went again, they said if +Me, oh +if we'd got any young brothers or sisters if we wanted we could take them with us, fine, so I said to me brother Vic who's three years younger than me +Mum I'm leaving that , I'm leaving that, I'm +Mm +and that +I know +we went to Trafalgar Square and we stopped to look at the pigeons and we'd moved on and I, I suddenly realised I hadn't got Vicky with me, so I looked all round, couldn't see him, had to go right back to Trafalgar Square and he was still looking at the pigeons +Oh god +Wonder if pigeons +That, that, that, oh put those away we're having dinner +I know +come and sit at the table and wait, come on, put those away +Usually have it pork and +We don't have beef very often, but you get a bit small enough for just the two of you, by the time you've cooked it +Yeah +it's a bit sort of +shrunk innit? +Tends to shrink +Mm how can you eat any more? +That's a burnt bit +Roast potatoes were very nice +But I tend to eat more chicken and fish and things like that now +Yeah +than I do red meat, don't eat +We don't eat that much red meat do we now? +Supposed to be trying to watch me weight +I like bacon +I got down to eleven stone and then I stuck +Oh yeah +for three weeks now I've been stuck on eleven stone, I got, I lost nearly a stone in first five or six weeks, now I've stopped +Yeah +I think it's mainly because I don't really get enough exercise this time of the year I don't +Ah maybe when you can get out in the summer +I'm just hoping +I'm losing weight as well, I was, fortnight ago Friday +Oh yes, my +Mm +I cut out all me, in, eating in between +sweets and chocolate +I couldn't +I think I've lost about half a stone so far +Yeah +Yeah you will do, it's surprising +Yeah even low fat +Well I, I do +on me bread and what have you +I've tried to cut out chocolate, but er, get a bit now and again, hard weekends +Yeah, I shall, I'm gonna treat myself at the end of each month +You, you dad, dad usually gets +Dad +some chocolate on the weekend +Yeah, at the end of each month I'm gonna treat myself to some +Two, two or three week's running Jenny came up on a weekend and brought us a bar of chocolate each +Oh +I said you're undermining my principles +Well we didn't see them this week, they told us that they wouldn't be along didn't they? +Oh they were +How much do you weigh nanny? +They told us they wouldn't come this week +They said they wouldn't be up this week they've +Eleven and a half stone +got somewhere to go +Ten and a half stone +forget where it was they were going +Eleven and a half +They were going Dunstable +Eleven? +But you worried about the +Oh yeah +probably why they were going out +well no, no not no it's, it's miserable innit really? +Yeah , yes you've got a car and you can go and visit somebody and go door to door +I like +too bad +Right +but if you've got to go and get a bus and +Yeah +sort of spend the day out +Would you like some more wine dad? +in the blinking rain it's not +you ought? +Yeah +but when the weather improves we shall, we shall go as far as Harrendle on the bus +Mm +I wanna go Black butchers on the square, last time we went to Harrendle Bob and Delph took us in the car +Bobby +and it was market day, and on the square near, where they have the market +there was this er butchers, and I went in there and I got some sausages, oh, er nobody said anything about these sausages I just thought well I'd better take something back for Fred's dinner so I went in and got these sausages, well they were the nicest sausages I've ever tasted in my life +Really? +they were just like the old fashioned kind and er we've never been to Harrendle since and whenever I get to Harrendle I'd get some more sausages. +More sausages +That's if it's still there +They were lovely +One of these family butchers, butchers who makes his own +Yeah , I +from erm erm, there's a butchers at Kinbolton +Mm +you know the, the S bend by the school? +I don't know, I don't remember Kinbolton, I've been through it I think +Oh well +I don't think I've ever stopped there +there's one of our supervisors and because they work all over the place, you know, they, they travel around and he's +Yeah +he's sausage buff +Yeah +and he reckons they're the best sausages he ever, he's ever had, from Kinbolton I don't know the name of it, I know where it is, you know that S bend the tight S bend, Ferrari's club +it's on there, it's on that side +Side, left or right? +On the right as you come down this way, on the left if you go out there +Couldn't have been our paper this morning they've moved on to +oh he's picture, one of the politicians, campaigning, said in Taunton, Devon, +Please may I get down from the table? +Somerset +That's right +Please may I get down from the table? +How close is it to the +It's not far +and that bloke +it isn't all that +because er, Tavistock er +No +Why? +Tavistock, +that's it Tiverton went in the, that +and that's not all that far from, from Taunton +No Taunton can't be very far away +Have to write to Hilda or ring her up or something, she can't write now her hands are so bad she +Oh +she can't write now, I haven't written to her for weeks +No +I said I'd ring her up on her birthday and I didn't +Oh it's my brother's birthday today +Yeah +Who's? +Graham's birthday. +Oh is it? +How old's Graham? +How old's he? +Thirty five I should think +What you got there? +Thirty six +No thirty six even +thirty six, he's about three and a half +Cake, what happened to the cake? +Ow +That's a nice one isn't it? +We had er +I like the doggy +Thursday afternoon me and mum looked after Daniel and Benjamin, cos erm, a relative of Sarah's died a week before and the funeral was Thursday, so, I said to mum yes I'd go up and help her +You had them over here? +We had them over here +and when they brought, they'd come about quarter, tea time I think and they said Benjamin's tired, he'll probably go to sleep +But he cried +and he cried and cried and cried +How old is he? +He'll be one in a week +I told you he was only about a year old +Yeah, erm, we, we thought we'd got him calmed down at one point and he started up again and he was like that right the way up till I went to fetch Emily +and that's quarter past three +Porky pig,that's lovely, that is +but he was, he was that tired but he wouldn't give in, he kept wanting to see what was going on +Mummy +but oh dear but he, mum did get him off to sleep in the end +Oh that's nice isn't it? +Dan , Daniel was alright, he came with me to fetch Emily +from school +Ah +Wasn't it James who was +Oh I was shattered , I was shattered by the night time +I think it's his neck the dodgy one +We'll just cut +it is an unusual cake isn't it? +We gave him a drink, we gave him some chocolate buttons, we gave me a big +shoved to one side, ooh dear +What about the buttons? +Oh that's nice isn't it? +That's the one I like, the doggy +I like the dog one +It difficult to make to look as realistic as that I'm +Yeah +and the, when that's after that the penguin +Ah +I wanna penguin for my birthday mummy +Do you know what you're gonna get demands for some of these for birthdays +I know +Yeah +yeah +I wanna penguin +I like that +got a lot now +Ooh, yeah +I ended up using black you can't very, you can't get black very well +Ice cream cones those +Yeah +difficult +Ooh that's good the aeroplane +Yes +The wafer things +Treasure Islands +Plastic +What are they Matchmakers? +Oh yeah +Yeah +I like Matchmakers, I like there's +Wicked witch +Julia +wicked witch of the west +don't tell us +Is +The garden I like +You used to have a story book when I was a kid, there was a witch called Jenny Green Thing +I can't drink it you, I still have a drink yet +Yeah it's a +Yeah, +that's why I can't that's why I have different +That's alright +cos I'm on erm low alcohol wine +They're made with swiss rolls +cos it's +It looks very nice +Ooh, ooh, ooh +Ha, yeah it is a good wine +Cut the swiss rolls into slices +a ros, erm +cos half of them don't need icing +Yeah, no +and the others are chocolate, and they've put them in a +I hate chocolate +it's low alcohol +That's nice +they've only got five percent +not, that wouldn't be very +I know you have to cut the cake up with all those little bits +Ooh I could do that +Ah +Yuck Valentine cake +Getting used to it now though, it don't bother me really I didn't do much for it anyway so +Like it, mm swiss roll in there, yeah +Yeah +Oh keep turning +Oh that's nice that, thatch cottage +with the garden +, I like that one +A big red bus +Yeah that's good innit? +I like that one +It is good innit? +Yeah +I mean +No you're not +look about all that meat you give her +No, Penny will have it +Freddy frog +What? +Mm, she doesn't eat a lot of meat +Chuffa train +Choo, Choo +She never eats all her meat she eats all the potatoes +Dinosaur +Choo, choo, choo, choo +Toadstools +Goblins +and the goblins +I like the lamp shade +Goblins in there +Yes that's nice bumble bee +And flowers +Vegetables that's unusual, do I +Fred do you want that? +No +your dad's birthday like that +Dad you gonna open one of them for your birthday? +All of these are a lot quicker than any of those dog food +Dad +What? +You gonna make a +A cake for your birthday with the guards on it +Rosie rabbit Tommy turtle +Tommy turtle +Concorde, it's breaking +Sandcastle athletic's track , they cater for all interests in here don't they, discus +That's the one I like +the swimming pool +that's definitely the one I like +Yeah steam +The steam roller +Yeah +Noah's Ark, that's good, what do they do with the animals they can't make them out of +No, those plastic mounds +they must be model animals +Yeah, yeah cos erm I like that +Snooker table +you can have that +Ozzy owl +that's nice +We lost one +you had an owl cake once did you or was it a cat? +An owl one +It was an owl +a birthday cake like an owl +I like that one +snail +ooh, er +somebody who loves camping +I want to go camping with some of my friends +Paddock, that's for somebody who likes horses +Gemma +Yeah Gemma's potty on horses Mary, Mary quite contrary, how does your garden grow +What did they all the +Julia were there? +Yeah +Yeah +What, what +what? +Shall we start right at the beginning? +What's he like, is he alright? +No, I don't like teachers +I think Porky pig that was the first one I saw, that's always good +That's alright, yeah +very nice +We saw him at Old Trafford +What super match? +Not the last time we went, the time we went to see United against West Ham +we, we went and you know park where we normally park and went down to the United chip shop and er we got our chips and stood outside +Have a chip shop? +and this bloke walked passed +Yellow and white +No, they were brilliant +Mum +Manchester United chip shop yeah, and it does, I tell you, it does a concert business +from about er +It would do +I should think about half past ten until +about half past two +Yeah +and there was a cast of flow of people cast a queue +out of the door and going in +Do you like this +there must a tremendous +and they were nice chips as well +Don't it make the sounds? +I mean we stood outside and +No it makes one sound +Oh +this duck came past and er I heard Mick +Have you seen this thing you put the button at the top to make their +two years headmaster and he was up there, he's got two kids, one of them's a West Ham supporter and the other is a +supporter +Oh dear +Who were they playing? +West Ham +West Ham +A lot of rivalry there then I suppose +Did he tell you he didn't have his side of support, I told him as long as he shouts just United that's alright +well there you are the boys +teams, so +What he do a smile that backed +and it shook his little lad back +Don't make the same sound every time doesn't it? +West Ham supporter, the best +Yeah +Who won? +United did +Two, none +No, two, one +I was a bit worried yesterday it was +Only if they're out +in that pot in that little cupboard +They, they played a lot better second half than they did first apparently +I'd have banked for a draw actually +Yeah +What's this? +I don't know, I can't drink +I let her do it all +It's nice out there +No +It used to be all green that's better +I'll try and catch the goals this afternoon, cos +Mum can I leave it? +Not now, put it away, put it away +They're bound to show all the action replays afterwards +Oh no +birthday +You can watch the football in there why we tape +Right there's erm it's a tin of fruit salad but I've put in some er kiwi and grapes so it's fresh fruit, it's in its own juice, so it's not in a heavy thick juice, there's Viennetta or you can have a bit of each +Well I'll have a little bit of each then please +The Viennetta isn't spoilt, +squashed side +I'll go out and got to do that +What? +Oh is there? +Oh +Aagh +What are they? +What does that mean then? +Meringue +Mum I +The only thing that +still qualified +er, don't want any of that +It's been beaten yet has it? +Yeah +Er, that's whipped cream and that's like whippy cream that hasn't been whipped but that's, that erm +Unwhipped cream +er the +Elmlea +Elmlea +I'll have this +Dad what do you want? +Do you want the same as mum or a little bit of each or +Ah yeah, I'll have the same as well similar to mum's please. +Can I get mine please? +Mum I +I know what I want +What do you want? +I want, I want some of that, a big bit +No +I want all of it +You can't eat it all +I can +It's different , it used to be all green ice cream, but it's now got all white layers, got a white, white +Yeah +I think it's lovely +Erm, +I prefer it like that +Oh +Yeah I +Yeah I want in there as well +Are there any strawberries? +Anybody else want a meringue? +Me +Dad? +Yes thanks Sandra +Right +ordinary which I believe +Dad +Er, ta +It's like your gonna have to have the +No, no I don't want it +, mummy's going to have the broken one +Broken one +I'll have the broken one +No it's mine +I'll have mummy's +No oh I want one +Oh +as well +I was +Got to +hoping I'd have it myself today +Mum what to it be in there to all fruit salad bowl +You've got one as well +This +is nice +Yeah, well I don't want +Long lost +Oh +That's yours +Where? +Come on +go on +Ta +Of all the fruit I've never bought before, a couple of weeks ago, now you know, a mango. +I think I know who done it now +I think I'll stay here actually +six +I'm staying there I accuse myself in the kitchen with the revolver or whatever it is, the revolver +Who? +the revolver +The revolver, where is it? +Emily +Have you got the revolver? +Miss Scarlet in the kitchen with the revolver +No myself in the kitchen with the revolver +Oh yourself Colonel Mustard did it no I haven't got any in there +Have you got any of them +I haven't got any in there +the kitchen oh no, I hate the +have you? +Have you? +Who's winning? +Me +I think I know who done it, but I don't know what with +Oh I know who's done it , I don't know who, what with +I ne +Do you want a game of this? +Oh, watch the match that's why we came in, put that on +Oh I was gonna say we can put telly on in here if you like, if you want a game +In a minute when we've finished this +Weren't that +There's not enough in +we need three more pencils dad, if you want to play that +They're going to see the football +Finish that game first +Emily have you got +I think I know who done it but I don't +kitchen +no where or what +where, with what +I know +yeah +I know who's done it, I think I know what with and I'm, I think I know what, where. +Emily have you got kitchen, mustard or +have you? +No +Ya ho, I know what it, where it is +I don't +My turn? +Yes +Two, where am I, two I've got two +I'm gonna go +Meow, meow +I +with the banner in the +Banner coming through +Come on Julia +Got that, Professor Plumb in the study with a spanner +know who it is +I think I know who +Oh anybody shown who +Well I know that +Six, one, two, three, four, five, six who turn? +Your turn? +Who's playing then? +Three +Got to go back +Oh +I don't know what they're up to, I'll say +Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah +I choose myself in the kitchen with the spanner +Spanner, where's the spanner? +Myself in the kitchen with the +er, Mustard, kitchen, spanner no I've only them +Julia +Have you? +No, you've got to +cos I've got +no it's mine I took three and I don't know where, who and what, five, settle down Emily +One, two, three, four, five +I choose Reverend Green in the hall with the lead piping +With what? +Lead piping +What? +hall, Green, piping +fine +I wished somebody would show me a weapon +Four +Four, where are you? +staying there +Staying there +I'll say it, in the kitchen with the revolver +revolver +I just have +Tell you what, Mustard, kitchen and gun +No I say the, Reverend Green done it +No I haven't got any of them +Green, kitchen, gun +So , sorry, I thought you said Mustard, kitchen, gun, oh alright +got any? +No I still haven't got any +Do you, do you, do you Elly yes or no? +Oh ooh goody, I know who it is and where it is now +Who's turn is it? +Can I stay where I am? +I know where it is +and +I know everything +Can I stay where I am? +Yeah +It's the Reverend Green in the kitchen with the spanner +Right +I haven't got any +Yes that's it +Cos, cos I've got +I've got , got, look, kitchen, spanner and Reverend Green +I got that about two rounds ago, but I'm not sure if it was either +Well I knew it was Reverend Green some time ago, but I couldn't decide which it, I just got that +that, about three goes ago +I did, I didn't know +But I wasn't sure if it was Reverend Green, cos that +what you do rub them, rub them out +and then use them again +yes I know that +mm +I know that +oh, should, do you not much play when we've finished +I had +I think so yeah +I don't know whether they all want to play or whether your dad and granddad wants to stay and watch the football +Yeah I think they say they want to play +Go and find out what they're doing +turn the sound down a bit +Julia +Yes +we need the +we do +I'm eating my penguin but, weren't that mine, that blue one? +No +there +Yeah, here are mum, we're gonna have to share them +Yeah +me and dad Florrie will have that one one for her and +We've only got three in there +me and me mum +these have got to be mixed up together is there nobody else coming in? +I'll have Man City erm +I think +Mummy we're sharing +I wonder what piece, what are, where's two centre +They're little Ritz crackers help yourself. +I've a erm +We're spoilt for choice here especially when you're supposed to be on a diet +The best of cheese +No I got that down Budgens +I've never had selection of Budgens +Yeah, no I get me cheese from Budgens +Can you get some for me? +Alright, we had fan on er Wednesday night +Nice is Wendy house, that we got when we were up in Yorkshire weren't it? +Why +Oh yes +You know I only want white +Rubbish here dad. +How many erm, it +Well I've got some more out there +Taste this, anybody want +Emily leave it +Look, ding, dee, dee, dee granddad granddad, teddy bear +Can I have some teddy bears? +Say please. +Please +Pickled onion? +Er, no thanks +Teddy bears, teddy bears, ooh teddy bears +da, da, la, da, da, la +Salmon, ham from the bone +Er, I'll have a piece of ham please +Can I have some egg? +Please. +Please. +Manners +No, I like egg +Do you want that little tomato? +Ooh, I don't, I've got enough does anyone else, want, else want any eggs, tomato does anyone else want any more egg? +Look, wait and see +Well I shan't er Julia +I want some more, I won't, well want some more +Oh, well there's ham, there's ham oh I've got a shell, no I can't have one, cucumber +Now I've had none +Here it is, is +Tomato anyone? +Do you want a tomato? +I've got one I've got +Anything else? +No, I've got some more out there +Erm +Dish of ham? +Please +No Julia +Ah look a teddy bear without a head +Oh, are they supposed to be teddy bears? +Yeah, a teddy bear without a head Julia, Julia he's lost his head mum +What? +a teddy bear without his head +Yeah +he's lost his head +You've beheaded him +Oh +poor old blighter +Poor little thing +Soon they'll, we'll be in half term with Julia +If you go down to the woods today +Do the song +da, da, da +Go +Yes please, thank you +Mum +What? +I don't have tea +No I know you don't have tea, you'll have to go and get yourself a +coffee +You don't want coffee do you? +Yeah +Oh can I have a brown roll Steve please? +Yeah +That's it +Oh, erm I want May to December taping +Oh the Cable Simpsons +What time's it on? +Quarter past seven +Why can't we watch it? +Yeah, why can't we watch it? +Cos I watch it Tuesdays when your dad's out, there's not much else on +Oh +Do you watch May to December? +Do what? +May to December +Yeah, as a rule +Oh good +Put it on while you're here then +Where? +Tell +I'll erm +Oh yeah +What time does it come on? +Quarter past seven +When they changed the girl in it? +I didn't think I could get used to it again, but, it's surprising how well she's fitted in +Mm +with the role. +yeah , that's right +Mm +It's seven now +Little red head the first one and I remember her face +Mm +I can't put a name to it +No +It's seven now +cos she was in a new series not long afterwards wasn't she? +That's right , yeah +Mum mum, it's seven +I said quarter past seven +Oh +Got a quarter of an hour what's the old lady's name do you know? +Stock, Stocker? +Is it Stocker? +Ah, ho +Mrs Stocker I think +It must be very fine +She actually +Mum +Right +Can I have the salt please? +Does anybody want to see a teddy bear? +Anybody want to see a teddy bear +got no feet +My teddy bear just disappeared +It's only his feet +Can I have some, erm, cucumber? +Yeah it is +Please +use this mug? +Quite hungry +Mum that roll please +The storm's getting a bit promising now +Right +About the erm, with this erm Cotswold news, I think it's about two pound seventy a pound +More like +no, I only have a small slice +Mm +every now and again +Thank you dad +I just treat myself +Where's teddy bear? +Weeee +Budgens do er, erm, cheddar with onion and chives as well now, that's quite nice +Huh, where's his arm gone? +We had a teddy bear without a head, a teddy bear without, with only feet, and know I've got a teddy bear with an arm, without +very much +without an arm, see there's only one arm left and that +This teddy bear's doing the can can. +This teddy bear's sitting down +Oh yeah +I knew you saved this +What they gonna do with the old post office? +I think it's being used now +Don't have any bum +I still use, it's still used +he didn't have his bum, mm +as a sorting office +Oh I thought +Yeah after the run down +Just aft , yeah +This one's going for a walk +I couldn't see how it was gonna work at Budgens to be quite honest, that new post office +Oh I've seen it, but I haven't through, you know, been round front when we go to +I passed up there and we go left +Mm +but here we, we never go up and go in the general by the +anyway +Has he watered down the stock? +for me +a quicker service there, than in the post office, I don't know +Mm +I , as I say I haven't been +Couldn't get any slower +No it's +What? +they have got some new staff, yeah +But that is Budgens' staff who are being trained +This one's angry +Oh are they? +Yeah +Oh are they? +This one's angry +They've got a security guard in there now +Who? +in Budgens +Who? +chap walks round as a security guard now +That's right, I thought there was one +New, a security guard +I saw it +walking round +Look this one's walki , no angry +I don't go in Budgens all that often, that's why I don't spend more if I go in it +Yeah +I went in there and bought some chewing gum when I went down to see it +That's what you got in there? +Mm +You could have got that from the little shop +Our +Yeah +little shop you went down? +Six +Who was that? +Me, Laura, Laura's mother, Sam, Sam +Two Sams? +Samantha and Samantha +Don't know her last name +What? +Oh, +Huh, why she went on +Do you want coffee Emily? +Have a cup of tea +I don't like it +Never heard of anybody who don't like tea +Does she ever drink tea? +No +Why? +Cos she won't +I'll +her +Yours +around here +What is it you don't like about tea then? +I'm not sure, I just don't like it +You're not that keen on coffee +I don't think Gemma eats as well as these two do, she's ever so finicky worse than you used to be. +I'm surprised they eat sometimes +Tut huh +Well she's not so much now, but she Julia would eat all day if we let her +I know er, who she takes after though what is +I'm +it you do like? +coffee +Yeah, what drink? +Blackcurrant +To eat, to eat +Food +Ham +Ham +rolls +rolls +them +cheese +teddy bears ah? +I'm scoffing them +I love gammon I do, gammon and pineapple, fish and chips +Julia I've got a teddy bear hopping on one leg +Have you? +You like how I make chips? +Not as much as the chip shop though +They are +They are aren't they Emily? +What? +Of course they are better than the chip, chip shop aren't they? +No +They, they're the best in the whole world, I've ever tasted +No I prefer chip shop bought +Oh I like the sausage and chips you get from +I've never yet met a child who didn't like chips +they used to when they were younger, neither of them +Me? +No you didn't use to eat chips when you were younger +When you were younger you'd +Don't any more +Ah, I don't want any chips thank you +We only have them once a week +Fish fingers, yoghurts +Only a +oh look this is gonna do, this one's gonna do the splits +Yeah +We don't have chips very often, I make them now and again, I haven't bought any chip shop chips for some time,we're having some Friday, cos er Eileen rang up Derek to say they were coming and said tell mum not to get anything ready we'll bring her some fish and chips. +Can they get fish and chips in Germany? +Yes, there's a nice fish and chips at that van that came round in +Oh yeah, on the camp +Oh +but erm +I don't know about the shops whether they sell chips +Do the towns and villages have them? +What? +Fish and chip shops +Didn't see any +We see a lot of English sheep +Fast food +There's some nice little, er German villages down and around the campers +began the camp, there all around this er village and they took it into the er +Is it a big camp then? +Oh yeah, the largest +camp in Europe I should imagine. +Is it? +There's one in America, Belgium, French, British, +Does anybody want that egg? +Dutch +do you want that egg? +Well mum, do you want that egg? +Well mum, do you want that egg? +Mm +Do you want that egg? +I don't want any more, thanks +Can I have it? +Yeah +Have it all +I'm going to +I don't want it, I don't like it +I know, that's why I didn't ask you +It reminds me of +Me? +Julia +Do you eat it all? +Yeah thanks +A whole day, a whole afternoon, a whole +morning +Yeah, think we will +a whole, do you eat all this feed, food on this table, in the morning, afternoon and the night? +She'd be, she'd be starving +How long are Eileen and Tony going to be over there for then? +They'll only be there for about twenty four hours, they'll go for about a week but they're spending most of it with er, Deborah down at erm, Bambury +Oh +I'll be over +for lunch +He hasn't seen a lot of Deborah and Sarah +No +so they're coming erm Friday just before dinner time they said between eleven and twelve and er they're leaving Saturday afternoon about three +Julia do you want any of these? +Oh +Any more of these? +But they'll +Yeah +just be here overnight +They're bringing fish and chips, it's Tony's favourite meal +Share them out +and er mum I'll make erm +dad do you want any? +Do you want any? +No +Well will I please make them an apple pie +Mum +he likes apple pie +do you want any grandma? +grandma? +Have we got any apples? +Yeah +No, well, we've got a few wine haven't you? +grandma +I thought you'd got some on the weekend +do you want any of these? +No thank you +You said you was gonna +Grand granddad, do you want any of these? +We've probably got some +Gran +How many do you want? +gran +I've got some apples erm I stewed and stuck in the freezer, to make +Oh +to make apple pies, you can have some of them +oh, well I erm, I did do a few but I've used most of mine up I think, I can look in the freezer to see if there's any there, but I don't think there is +mum, do you want any of these? +You know, I've only got that little bit on top +Dad do you +of the fridge, it doesn't hold much +oh well +it's not worth, supposed to be a freezer, it's mainly for storing frozen food, but you can freeze small amounts in it. +I've got quite a lot of apple, so you can have some +There's yours Julia +ain't it? +No +I've got some bags of rhubarb as well +not a whole one +Oh +Mm +If I took that with me, they'll be alright in the fridge till Thursday would they? +Yeah, yeah, cos they've been in the, yeah. +They're frozen so I'll get them out +So I've had three whole ones +remember get them out just before you go and then you put them in your freezer when you get back. +Yeah +Yeah Tony's very partial to your mum's apple pie. +Last time I made one he ate nearly all of it himself didn't he? +Watch +I'll buy for a cost of bottles of his favourite beer Grosche +What? +I've never had any of that +Tony likes it, he said it +Deb likes that too +Deb always asks him to bring us a Grosche back +Mm +it was er, couldn't get it here then +it's a nice beer +but you can now +Is it strong? +I don't know +I don't know what the strength is +They've got beers from all over the world in Budgens, Mexican, goodness knows what +Is there? +Ah +Mm, I couldn't buy it from there because it's too much expensive +Er +to buy +are we gonna play a game? +No +Not at the minute, no +Whoops +I would buy a, er a four pack, so er Ton , Tony wanted to be +Oh +Oh well, I'll try them with yeah +I'm gonna read this book +No you're not put it down, go away that's for Benjamin's birthday, I don't want it getting dirty while were having er tea +And afters +OK +I don't know, teapots +teapot +lid +where +got a teapot in here +Let's have some more tea love +I've put my tea up there +Where's the teapot? +This one please +Oh er I'm glad there's enough room to put it all on +Have you seen any magpies up top of the garden lately? +No, I haven't +I haven't +I have +Your mum says we've got some +It'll be nice when these are grown up and you can sit back down and wait on you +Mm +Mapgies are such a +it'll be nice when these are grown up and you can sit back and let them wait on you +Huh, I can just see that coming off +Ta +Mummy and daddy can wait on us aren't you? +That's miss lazy nineteen ninety two that is +When I was Julia's age I used to have to take my little brother and sister with me everywhere I went +I used to say to Emma, that little girl of yours she's a proper little mother, must have been er, see in the future I should think +Used to have to take erm my youngest one, was it, uncle +Grandma +Pete, she was then +granddad, granddad +or was it uncle Phil, one of the two +granddad +she always had to take him out +have you heard this before? +Mm +Yeah +She couldn't go out and play with the other kids, she had to take him round for a walk +That is the same as pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food +Yeah +so +it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below +Say it again +Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food, it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below +it was not me it was my food, it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below +but we used to take them to the pictures on Saturday afternoon my mum used to give me nine pence +Oh +penny to get in the pictures, and a penny +Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food +Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food +it came back up to say, say hello and now it's gone back down below hello hello +No I've never, never heard that before +Pardon me for being rude, it was not me it +it was my food, it just popped up to say hello, and now it's gone back down below +Slowly +pardon +Pardon +Pardon me for being +Pardon me for being rude it was not me it was my food +Come on Julia, I need some help +Sometimes +come on Julia, I need help +Shouldn't help +No Julia +How would you +What's that, how do you ask when it's your birthday? +Yes, we know you know +Thank you Sandra +French is weird when you get to the highest +don't they +When you get to, to eighty it's four twenties +and then it's +What? +What's a hundred? +Cent, C E N T, cent +Cent, cent de une we had to try and remember all them. +God, can't remember +It's +Don't know +Yeah +What's a hundred and twen +what's a hundred and ninety nine? +Don't know, it's +What's two hundred? +I don't know +yeah +What a strange thing +What a mouthful just saying that in ninety nine +dad do you know +Germany +German +Not much no +I told myself I was gonna learn a bit of German before I went to see Eileen again +German +Has Eileen, has she learnt any? +But er, I can count up to about seven, I can say yes and no and please and thank you and +Hard work, you know, Tony knows a fair +Say something +good morning +thank you in German +please is +The term please and thank you and ya is yes and nein is no +Very popular in +I'm going to start learning some german +Yes that's right +and is it? +What's that for +Ya +Mother and father +Not very +It sounds awful doesn't it? +Nein, for no +Oh +They spent time in Luxembourg, did you know? +Luxembourg +What was it? +They had a weekend there +What was it for father? +Sshh +hello +What's wrong with that ham that's on your plate? +Oh +Come on, pass it over +come on +I want to know why daddy +I'll remember that one +Haven't you got +Come on Julia +Poor old Penny ain't gonna get much out of that +I thought you wanted a +Oh May to December +Too late +What time was that on? +Now, quarter past seven, it's not worth taping the rest of it +Why? +Put T V on +What's er, do you want, do want put it on here? +Put T V on +Yeah put it on in here +Have you got any homework? +Yeah +Have yeah, what you got then? +Question, only one question +One question? +Yep he sh , shouldn't of given it +That is a lot that is isn't it? +Shouldn't of given any +Oh, so you've got nothing else? +Mm, mm. +Nothing, did you get any homework to do for tomorrow? +Mm, mm. +Cos +that bit +Come back yet, have they? +No +Why cos they're +Yes +I'm going to take another one off him I am +Can't +Yeah, it's Julia +it's Julia , I said to Julia +Yeah +No, not now I have to take this +I do a, well I suppose it's twenty eight days like everything else, that's what it is +Mark at work he's always a +Where from? +Don't know where they're from +What's this you're saying? +Is that the one with the +Bigger that that +He won't set it out and call it a +No +Right, fine +Yeah, I +No, no +No I thought you said +They lost +Oh I don't know +No, I +Oh don't worry I'll get it +No, I'm alright +Yeah I +You know I ain't had a look at them yet, I shall have to have a look +You don't do it +Ah, but they are now, been that one we laid the +Yeah +I think I'll go and have a look this afternoon +it's the +yeah +the female does as +Oh you've got to cut +brown colour aren't they all over? +No they're a light +a bit nasty as well, but they're just not big +Oh I thought they were, oh +No +Who's is this? +Paul's big erm +This afternoon we'll it says in the instruction, at the end of every third tape change the batteries, so er, we'll take them two out tomorrow +Yeah +and chuck them away +right +OK +That's what she said, she said you'll want a +I think bloody batteries +So er +so er, talking for half hour +Yeah +and er I thought er, I've been playing about with the old ear for a song for a long time, but I ain't worked the cords out +so, well between the +and er, I was saying to old +and we had a conversation about it +Hello, yo, hi, how you doing +No, don't do that Gemma that's why, that's why you're not supposed to know +but, and er Dave would +our conversation we had, we were talking +Yeah +and then in the afternoon you come up didn't you? +That's right that's correct, yeah. +Yeah and then er I'm told he works +there up there all day and +You can have it on later +Oh yeah +so this is the third of it, so have you got plenty of +Yeah I will do +Well +on that one +OK mate +But, I mean +the ten tapes and +and er, she said she needn't of left them, but er only the last batch you got, only if you get twenty tapes +oh, right oh then, she said it's been done all over the country +Oh +or whether she's covering Lancashire or +No, no, I think it's +innit? +They've just been +Yeah +Yeah +Direct, yeah +If, should she come here at our house +I mean, does she go and pick people at random? +However she wondered about our pensioners +Oh +she just been over some house in Trafford Road and er, I think she left some, some by there by what she said or to who, who it were, but it must of been them who put them onto us, because she come in +and she said er, I understand you write a lot of letters in the paper, I said well, I, +It might of been a man. +so she asked us if we would like to do this +Oh, that's +seeing as we've got a big family, I thought well +Well yeah, that's right +Get as many as I could possible +Yeah, I'd have done. +Anyway, we'll all go down in posterity +I should think we will +Do you want a tea ma? +Three years is no time +No +Three years? +He's had all his hair cut and he's shaved his tash off +What short, short? +Yeah +Oh +and he's shaved his tash off as well and he's always had that tash ever since I've been there, it was really funny +Yeah, it's funny when someone's always had it. +I remember when Sue worked behind +beard and that all the time and he shaved that off, oh +My boss was telling me about some old boy right he had a beard for all his life yeah? +yeah +a really long beard right? +yeah +And one day he shave it off, it took his wife three hours to notice and it took his mum all day to notice +I think that's terrible and he's always had it? +Yeah he's always had it, always, and they never noticed +That's terrible, poor bloke oh dear +mm +ain't she? +What? +No +Thought you were asleep +Mum +What? +have you got +Can you go and get her please? +I'll get her +Chew shut up +That's enough Chewy +Chewy +Ah, I called you +Look mum +What? +there it is +it's just that +Yeah it's +but it's going white +It's cert , it's going very pale yes +it's certain in it bleach innit? +Oh yes it's lots of +Oh +Yeah +Ah which was +probably it were not +Yes I hope so, +that one +Did I? +Yeah +I didn't notice it until later on +How's it spelt then? +A M E M D E I +Oh +I thought I'd catch his +more than that +Yeah, he'll probably come back, probably have lots to eat, who knows, he looks friendly, I don't know, oh you know at ruggers his mum came up to me and +yeah +Yeah +he's +Is it? +Yeah +I still don't know a few ideas though +It's prob , probably got the odd market +and I thought well, I, I asked cos I was so sure that was a male +It's been a male and female +Just a male +big +I ain't been out +Shall I go and have a look to see if there's any +Yeah you could do I don't think +or not +Try now then +Is that better Chewy? +ouch +Oh Chewy +I know it sounds quieter +Is there any in there? +No +No +I don't know, mind you it's early yet really, cos they're all +ain't they? +Yeah, lines +yeah pulled it up to the shed and I've left it there +I didn't know what to do about that, I put +and they +I know it's not in there unless it's under the +but I doubt it +Maybe +I doubt it anyway +Perhaps it's sold +yeah they do, I +they all love that there +Right I give you it, it's the same old +Could be +I mean six months been out there +Long time +Yeah +Yeah six months, not having no +right +may as well +alright don't want them +fix my +Were they +Thank you very much +I'm tying up shoes, +OK, do you want these Chewy? +Finish all the lunch off. +That's nice +Yeah +Oh +Should think dear anything +Some more +I'm going upstairs to listen to some music +How big were they? +About two, some of them were about two foot some of them were about four +How much were they each? +Er twenty two pounds fift , er twenty two pounds fifty +So, dear ain't it? +Worked out less than, I don't know and they give us all the posters and everything, so weekend I'm gonna send away for another seventy +No +Yes, seriously +You ain't got enough room in your garden +Course I am +that +beginning of the extent or the end of the extent of the fish pond +That's trying for them, twenty two inches apart +There is a saying ain't they? +Yeah, if you want a hedge six, if you want a hedge six foot high, a good solid hedge six foot high, plant eighteen inches apart, so I've had, I've planted them between twenty and twenty two inches apart +They take years to grow +No they don't +How long? +Er, they reckon they grow two to three foot a year they're the fast grow ones, once they get a hold, they start growing and they shoot up each week and when they start shooting up, that's when, you've got to keep them watered, and you've got to feed them with that plant stuff do you know what I mean? +Yeah +Got the old watering can and then you get down on this plant, and then when they get a gist of that first time that they go whooo, you wake up in the morning, you've got co , conifers like Jack and The Beanstalk coming +I was gonna come over and see you about, about +Mm, mm. +I could find out where you did your, that, that hall, I know people in +know where it is in it? +Yeah, but that, I don't know whether it's +knew anything +See I told you they would +No I don't think so, nobody does +What, what did they say about your tash? +Do you know, I went in there right and the majority of people never took no blind bit of notice then suddenly one person walked through the door, you know, he's always playing next to me and he sits down, puts his trumpet there, gets his trumpet on ya, sits there, turns round and the next thing he were laying on the floor going +and that was it, everybody else turn round and oh, blah, blah, blah, blah and that's how it goes and that +that actor oh blimey he's +we say no, what does he remind me of? +And +going oh he looks like a bloody poofter know ooh, ooh +and then that was it and then a bit later on, that was all they said about me haircut and then during the break somebody else said, there's something else gone as well and they couldn't make out what it what done mine in, my musical director he come, he says you know what will look nice now with that haircut don't you? +I said what? +He said a patch, I went I said +little one, he said no I've never noticed +never noticed you had it? +no +I can't believe it's Thursday +So you've got plenty of food on you? +Yeah, I see, you could possibly +for a fiver +I think +Ah? +I think er, that +Same with my missus, don't get suspicious +I know she thinks I'm picking you up, but,I and Mark are gonna give you some money for +I said yeah, he is, I said he could do +where do you think you're going, I said London +You always tell her we're going to London don't you? +I think one night, right, I'm gonna say Carol were gonna be out late, right, I'll tell her we've got two down, down buyers and sneak out +Sneak out +down +He, he wouldn't serve me though in the pub, cos he knows how old I am +No, you'll be on it easy won't you? +Yeah +Yeah, I'll +on his +won't it? +Yeah it would as well, he'll probably bar me as soon as we walked in, he don't like me, does he? +You won't be able to drink now you're driving +So +and over, my +and the car registration number is oh, oh, blah, blah, blah +You always say +You ain't got your Garrot Turbo sticker on your car. +I know. +I thought you said you had yesterday. +No. +You said, you were going on about, something about, when they sing oh Garrot Turbo sticker +Yeah, but I haven't stuck it on yet. +Where you gonna put it? +I don't know yet. +There ain't room is there? +No. +Anyway +Oh, want to stick it on top of that dome like cowboys do +, I want, I want, I'm gonna laugh, yesterday +and there's all these +Yeah +Yeah slapped all over his car +There might be a load slapped on your car. +Oh, it's +walks down about eight o'clock, talk about long legs, she's got really long legs right, this one. +Get all the components done and that just leaves me to do the joints. +What you gonna do them on your own? +Oh I see, I mean, if we're still doing components tomorrow +I will be won't I? +Monday +Well even if they +They just want to check over +Yeah +Yeah +Yeah +Great I know the er, Dave has said about the er +Yeah +they get them out because +I mean they really are gonna be, you know, in a hurry to get stuff out the door +Is that it, is that all of them? +No, there's some here if you want +Oh are they the last ones? +Over there +What? +Where? +The +Erm, can you get Jeff to do the first soldering for you? +can you, you get them close, just say twenty +clean and then start to finish them +Yeah +alright? +And then Jeff just carries on finishing +yeah, yeah +But just, as soon as, er, er, when +soldering, I take it you haven't just checked any over yet +No +before they go down? +got these about four, four to put +in, then we'll start checking them over +Right and then get them down there, the machine won't be ready until about half past nine. +Yeah +If Jeff doesn't get those soldered allows you to get +You'd better come in Monday morning, you won't +through that will you? +Yeah +I don't really +I think people who drink from the bottle want their bollocks chopped off. +Yeah +You got any more of that? +Yes please +Erm she said, she didn't like the course too well and +. +And erm er good place to make friends but at any college you make friends +and from the Exea, Exeter College where she first knew me, so +that's about the size of things. +Right. +Are you dedicated to terms? +Am I? +Yes. +No. +Because shouldn't be! +Okay, next two. +This is Lisa. +And she thinks the college is a disorganised . +Erm the course is too jam-packed and she doesn't enjoy it. +. Erm she could make plenty of improvements, make it look nicer, more organised better rooms the people are okay, but that's the only good thing about college is meeting people. +The rooms are badly heated, the facilities are okay and and it's been, it's been an okay experience so far. +Right. +Erm . +And the last two. +This is Claire. +She loves the college! +She's on the B tech first diploma on caring for a year, then she's gonna go to a two year national. +Erm, she thinks it's quite a good course, she likes the tutors and, she likes going out with friends who, who she meets at college. +She has a day off a week. +Aha. +Erm she +If I'm lucky! +a bit bad! +No ! +But she erm thinks that the way it should be only four days rather than three. +And +Ha! +Lucky ! +And it could be improved. +The college could be improved a lot. +Right! +I've all those feelings. +Seems to be all about stop and go! +Right! +Let's now talk for a little while about the assignment. +Maybe, give you extra help, extra information. +We'll hand out some paper this is not to make one of these long lists or anything, it's basically to help you to make some notes if you wi , require to do so. +Right. +Yeah. +Would you like to hand that for me round Claire? +Yes. +Thanks. +I want to go through the process of what we really have to do and consider to build up the story. +Not just the basic elements but let's put one or two things down on paper for yourselves. +Now, as you know i when you +Oh yeah! +when you paint a picture when you paint a picture you put all the information in the picture that you need to present the idea to other people. +The same thing applies when you build up a story in words. +You have to build that picture in the mind. +Now, if you want to make any notes read them through now, it may be helpful to you if you think can just remember then that's okay by me. +But I always find, and I think you probably do, if you write things down you remember them easier and far longer. +Right! +Now what I said to you approximately two minutes to the side that's fine if you want to know how many words, who kno , who knows roughly how many words in two minutes? +Right! +I'll explain to you. +It is based on three words per second as the spoken word. +Oh! +Oh yeah. +Alright? +That is the spoken word. +And three words per second is the way that television presenters make er, their scripts for presenting to the public in a news bulletin. +So for a minute you have obviously got a hundred and eighty words and for two minutes it's double that amount. +I see. +Okay? +Mm. +Now I'm not going to be pedantic and say anything under two minutes is unacceptable two minutes is the guideline just to give you an idea of what would be a good idea. +Right? +Okay. +Now we're talking about whether it can be a story about human beings or animals. +It can either be looking at the animal as an observer, in which case you can talk about the animals and what they are doing. +Or, you can take the point of view of the animal and have the animal speaking in a human tongue. +The same as I did mention last week,. +A simple structure for the plot interest and also, or possibly it's quite nice to include a little bit of humour. +So straight forward, there's something to create a smile about. +Now, apart from a colourful er, magic of the story line you also need a colourful character or characters. +To build up a character you need to know something about that character, what sort of person that character is or what sort of animal that character is. +Is it happy? +Is it unhappy? +Erm you need to set the scene. +Now, by setting the scene we'll take an example, just a straight course statement, alright? +A girl goes for a walk. +That is just a few words in your mind you can see a person walking along. +As a story line it's not all because it doesn't say anything about the girl, it doesn't say where she's going, where she's come from and what's happening on the way. +So, that's the starting point. +That's the basis of the structure. +From that point on we need to give a name to that person we need to give the environment, that is to say is she inside? +Is she outside? +Is she walking in a park? +It is good to know, if it's outside, what the weather conditions are like. +Is it sunny? +Is it cloudy? +Are the skies blue? +Or is it about to snow? +It'll be interesting to know where the girl was going to. +And perhaps where she'd just come from. +Is she doing anything apart from just walking along? +Now, you start that building that information into the first statement of the girl goes for a walk. +You then begin to build up a story line, a structure and something which could be called interesting and could be the start of interesting idea. +So, using that idea, using that information +Mm. +Yeah, that's . +would someone like to tell me how they would actually incorporate that, that additional information into the first statement? +Who's got an idea? +Who can tell me? +I'll start you off if you like. +Right. +First of all, someone give me a name for the girl. +Mildred. +Mildred. +Mildred it is! +Mildred has hereby been born! +One day, Mildred was walking along in the park it was very, very hot and she was very, very tired! +Okay. +We've established certain things there. +There are other things we can now add to that. +Who will now add to other elements to that story? +It's hot. +She's tired. +She's in a park. +Her name's Mildred. +The bird's were singing and the +Right. +. +Yes. +That, that sort of thing's important because it gives, it gives, it then builds up original +ideas and part of the story as well. +Right! +More things please? +Mhm. +The park was crowded. +Right. +The park was crowded. +What else? +And say what the people were doing, like you know, there's people playing . +? +And, the story line could go and over the horizon she could see all sorts of very colourful kites flying in the sky that other children were flying in that lovely afternoon! +Right. +What other things could what could she be doing apart from just walking? +What does something that one does sometimes if you're contented, maybe happy? +Hum? +Hum. +Right. +Hum or whistle. +A whistle? +Okay. +So she was quietly humming to herself. +She seems quite a contented li er, girl, lady. +Have to stop and sit down because she's tired. +Yes! +She could stop and sit down. +an ice cream. +Get a drink? +She was +Right. +In the distant she heard the sound of an ice cream van with it's with it's jingly little tune playing and she thought oh, I'd love an ice cream! +Yeah, I, you may laugh but you see if you're writing stories for a, for a young child then you've got to be explicit, you've got to be colourful and you've got to talk in a basic language that that child will talk that like that at that age. +So, one has to take that on board. +So, that is the idea of building up the structure for a story of that, of that, of that kind. +Now, if you can once again, for those who are going to actually do this assignment for me, I hope you are! +Base the idea and structure building on that and then increase the incidentals as you go along. +The incidentals being part of if you want to incorporate some sort of plot sequence or some sort of intrigue erm that's entirely up to you. +Okay? +The other thing that we mentioned last week as well is the moral message erm be it, safety factors to deal with, with children. +Do it as well. +I mean you know how a lot of, a lot of these stories end, and the moral of the story is, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera! +Okay? +The people here, do you actually like er, telling kid's stories? +Yeah! +Yeah. +Yeah. +It's great innit? +Mm. +Cos you get a lot of feedback and th and there's a lot of excitement. +Do you have a chance to do it much here? +Yeah, a lot. +Cos +Yeah. +our, our are expected to do it. +Yeah. +To like of children . +Good! +And th the stories that you read are all, all for children are they ones that you're reading from a book, or are they ones that you're inventing at the time, or what? +Well most are from a book. +A book. +From a book. +Normally. +Normally. +Right! +So, what you need to do is, is, is expand on what you've read and then start to invent things yourself. +You will not always have a book available to you. +But it's nice to be able to invent the stories as well. +It's interesting for you apart from the child. +Right! +We are going to do some miming this afternoon. +Oh! +Which is er going to excite our friend here! +Trouble is it's a ! +Yes. +Right! +So split up into four groups as wi with we did once before. +It goes er +Wah ! +Oh! +Sixteen of us so it's four in a group. +Are we playing the miming ? +Are you happy to take groups in that direction four, four, four, four? +Yeah. +Yeah? +Okay? +So the first four there +Watch what we do. +okay? +They'll be group A. +Oh no! +That's us. +The second group there, including yourself will be group B. +See this +Yeah I know. +The four in the corner including Zoe +Ha! +will be group C. +And the last four up this end will be group D. +That's fi that's five in that. +Five. +So five what? +Don't know! +What is five? +Tell me . +is there five people? +One, two three, four, five. +That's right! +One, two +Your +three, four. +That's one, two, three, four. +One, two, three, four, five. +Alright? +Use a five, yeah that is, you're right! +I'm going! +What the hell are you doing like that? +Just thinking of the role plays. +She'll be death of me! +Yeah. +What? +That. +One, two, three, four, five. +You will have used them all . +. +Just one over. +Yeah, I'm putting the extra one in the appropriate place for the role play that's all. +. +You keep, you keep a volunteer. +Right? +Okay? +Right. +Before we do the role plays I'd like to discuss them to sort of, so we know exactly what we're gonna do. +The subject for group A, will be purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes. +. +Oh yeah,don't look ! +Purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes! +And this, at least, mime. +But before we start we'll talk about controlling . +Oh I've done this before! +Oh yeah. +Group B +teacher now. +I've done this. +Group B is something totally different. +Erecting and decorating an Xmas tree, a Christmas tree and putting the presents on. +We'll discuss that. +Did you hear that group B? +Yes. +Yes! +Right! +Group C different once again dressing in a dressing room for a play or any kind of stage production. +I will not tell you what the production will be +We got we got a good then! +but doing it in mime +Yeah I know. +will be interesting. +And group D, and the reason I've allowed the extra person in your group is Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, I know there are not eight of you! +It doesn't matter. +Oh! +It doesn't actually matter that much if you leave out Sno Snow White. +The idea of the seven dwarfs thing is you've got the seven dwarfs and I'm sure you can sort out who they are. +And what I will do is, they are all presents on Christmas day. +Oh! +Your opening presents on Christmas. +Oh! +Right? +Okay, let's go back to the beginning. +prepare you now. +Body language is the most important thing in mime. +Now, what's a typical, who can tell me what the typical body language is that you would prese present or portray if you said I don't know? +What would you, what would your body language be? +Shrug the shoulders. +The shoulders. +A shrug. +Yeah. +Right, okay. +Group A, purchasing an outfit against your partner's wishes. +Now, as near as possible you can do that. +You can go into a shop and start purchasing this item not knowing your partner is there and the partner suddenly appears and then the confrontation starts bearing in mind you are not +speaking. +This is mime. +Now, what I would like +That's very good! +you all to try and do this time is to avoid if you can mouthing words, mouthing dialogue. +Mouthing dialogue in mime is an easy get out! +Because you just stand there and hope someone's gonna read your lips so you don't have to do anything with your body! +But this time can you concentrate more on what you are going to do with your body to actually tell people via your body or give them a good idea of exactly what you mean +Yes. +to say. +Yes. +Try and remember what you had originally on your on your gesture list. +Try and remember what certain things mean. +What nervousness means or what it can mean. +And also what things like, folding your arms means. +Right. +What talking behind your mouth means. +Looking up and looking down. +If you're not sure of anything and you haven't got your things here please ask. +Oh could I have one? +Mm? +You wa you wanna have a look? +I haven't got the for a moment so you'll have to use this one. +Thank you! +Right, Group B +Have you? +erecting and decorating a Christmas tree and putting on the presents. +Now, I would suggest you start that physically bringing in the Christmas tree. +Let's say it's a fairly tallish one. +If it's a fairly tall one then obviously on it's side it's gonna long. +Try and think, work out how heavy that tree would be and how difficult it is actually to get a large tree into a lounge, living room, dining room, call it what you will! +Call it a ! +Erm let's say that the family are involved in decorating the tree. +Now, when you're putting on the presents there are little, there are other areas within putting on the presents that you can possibly include like a present's going on the tree, you happen to see your name in it on the tag, right? +And what does one do one picks it up start rattling it like the devil to find a work out what it is! +Now, these are basic ideas, I want you to add to these ideas. +Right! +Group C dressing for a play or any kind of stage production in the dressing room. +You're all in the same dressing room. +Now +it's quite important to be very specific about how you do this because it's not just a matter of putting on clothes +Oh! +I mean for one production you may need a wig another production you won't. +I mean, if you can imagine what the process of a dame in pantomime goes through to get all that gear on then that is the sort of thing you've got to try and do in mime. +A few weeks ago we were talking about lifting objects and the size of the objects. +If you lifted a large laundry basket think about the size of a laundry basket, think about where the hands would go then down, lift it up and if it's full of laundry then it's obviously going to be heavier than if it was empty but that's the size. +The difference being, that if it's a saucepan then obviously a saucepan you lift it with one hand and if it's full of hot water or something then you'd have to be careful. +Think about the , think about the sizes, think about the weights and think about what it's gotta be used for and that is really got to relate to the dressing in the dressing room because there's all sorts of things there, there's jewellery, there's hats. +Right! +Going on to group D the dwarfs, the seven dwarfs. +Happy, Grumpy +Dopey. +Dopey. +Sleepy. +Sneezy. +Ah. +And then take which, which one +And there's isn't there? +you want to use. +Now and I said alright! +Opening presents on Christmas morning it's not just a case of opening presents is it? +I mean, one opened a present, yes but +but are you happy when you're opening it? +Are you hapen ha are you happy when you see what it is? +Or is it one of those presents which +Take the ! +and you can't think of an anything that you would like less! +Handkerchiefs! +For the, for the, for the tenth year running Jonathan has just got a pack of white handkerchiefs! +Yes! +What have I got this year though? +Not white, just green! +Right! +So erm +one can in interpret one's attitude in relation to opening the presents in different ways. +Their faces. +Did you do it happily? +What do you do +I mean you must still be half asleep in which it could be himself. +Okay? +Now, this time we'll think about it +Oh! +carefully before we do it. +So can you get in your groups now to discuss exactly what you're going to do, how you're going to do it. +Very, sort of slow. +Pardon? +Don't just take the basic subject today. +Think of really think hard about you're going to do. +Include something in it which no one else is expecting. +Quite difficult wasn't it? +Yeah. +If you take a facial expression anyone of the seven dwarfs and you want to try and give a dramatic idea how to present that face or that attitude to do it just by standing there without curtains opening on you and all that sort of thing it's quite diffi , it's quite difficult! +But, there are various ways you can do that. +If there was a long line of people number of seven for the seven dwarfs and they were all standing there side by side and they had their hands over there face like so and the altogether, at the same time, in unison they parted the hand to reveal the facial expression that is more of a dramatic experience to people looking than just by standing here . +Alright? +So that you are actually creating the drama for the people that are looking at you. +Okay? +Let's go on to another subject which is another subject we'll be dealing with today. +And I'd like you, if you haven't destroyed them totally, to use the little piece of paper I gave to you all. +Oh! +I didn't, didn't have one! +If you would like another piece +It's alright, I've just looked at mine. +Sorry? +whatever it is that changed. +I mean, you can't do stories one side can I? +I, no, no, no, I didn't need it back. +It's for your benefits. +I'd like you to write things down because I think you're gonna remember them, he says, hopefully! +I've lost it! +If that happens to be on a piece, piece of paper and you want to keep your it might be a benefit to you later on. +It's there, look. +Right! +We'll end up today by talking a bit about children's role play. +Yeah. +Now, in the past, so far, this term we've covered areas such as the bus role play, which I suspect you remember the shop role play of which I'm sure you remember. +Mm. +Now, have you, you, you obviously heard of the home corner, yep? +Yes. +Right you know what a home +Yes, very well! +corner is. +I'm sure you do. +What we want to do now, can we stand on these ideas and put down on paper some more ideas of what circumstances and situations you could use for children's role play. +Areas which would benefit the child possibly educate the child in a different direction, a different way. +Ways of explaining to a child or showing things for a child, or showing a child how to do things. +Such as? +Such as buying an ice cream. +has a great education value for children, it helps to form their personality and character, it allows them to exercise their imagination and explore the world of fantasy. +When a child plays a game and assumes another character it enters into a form of role play which in itself is a dramatic experience! +This is all part of the learning process. +With guidance and the use of role play children can begin to experience many of life's situations. +Now, incorporate in your play, there is the, there are the benefits of dressing up using clothes that may well be available or using er, specific outfits as well. +Dressing up helps to, helps children to find a simple way of changing role and to establish their own identities. +Dressing up can help a shy sh a shy child to lose his in inhibi in inhibitions. +Inhibitions. +Thank you so much Jane! +What a child is by anxiety to play out his fears. +Wearing specific copies of uniforms also gives children the opportunity to try out occupational roles, such as astronauts, or nurses as well as fancy roles like robots, or witches. +Right! +So if you can start writing your list of, you have examples already of other areas that you think could be interesting, useful educational, helpful to a child either as in a group or maybe it's two children! +In role play? +For role play. +Yes, it's a role play? +Yep! +Role play subject. +Mm mm mm, mm +Sarah? +mm mm mm . +What have you got? +Erm +Good! +You've got on your list. +Yeah +er I've probably got everyone else's, I've got car racing . +What sorry, sorry? +Car racing. +When somebody +Car racing? +wants to . +What, as a racing driver you mean? +Yeah, that's +Yeah. +right. +Erm, a farmer . +I know what I've got. +nursing and doctor. +What have you got? +Yeah. +Mm? +Nurse and doctor. +Yes. +Cos ac , they like that . +Anything to do with the hospital? +Yeah. +Doctors one of course. +Yeah, doctors one +Is a very good idea! +Dianna's here for you. +Dianna's here. +Yes of +Can I have a word with you please? +You may indeed! +We're about to finish so please come in. +close the door. +Yeah in a minute. +How long will you be? +Right, we'll wait outside. +Alright. +Couple of minutes. +The benefits of a role play for children particularly are +or rather is a play, the role play results in a child getting used to experiences a, experiencing a situation which is gonna be helpful to that child. +And often the situation is one that +Cheers! +Ha! +Thank you! +That's alright. +Your very polite aren't you? +! +Right! +Next week +next week once, before you go! +Before you go! +Next week if you'd like to bring some more music tapes for next week. +Okay? + +didn't didn't get much of you last time speak very quietly. +Do you speak very quietly when you're playing out when it's your turn to be Rush. +Do you say, Excuse me chaps could you just pass the ball over this way please. +No I shout but if they +On me 'ead. +I just go . +So the way you talk normally when you're outside when you're playing football that's not the same as you need to talk when you're writing is it? +Er a lot of people think, Oh I'll just write the way I talk. +Well if you do everybody tends to make a bit of a fuss about it. +What's this you can't have that don't +say that and you say, Well I do say that. +So don't write that. +So there different different ways of putting things and I E words can you think any words that've got I and E together in them? +And we can perhaps use some of those in sentences. +Erm +Okay we'll give up for today. +Any you've come across recently and somebody asked you to spell them and you've thought Oh I haven't got +Cupboard. +Cupboard okay that's a good word. +Cupboard hasn't got I E in it has it but it's a good word. +Erm do you remember how to spell cupboard? +Well it's you don't spell it like cupboard you spell it like a cup board. +Cup. +Cup board cos it used to be just a just a shelf just a board with some hooks on it hang your cups on it. +Okay where's that it's in the cu the cups They're on the cup board, hanging on the cup board. +And after a while you say cupboard. +Like forehead. +Some people say, Oh must be fore head. +it's forehead cos that's what people say and it used to be fore head and they change all the time that's why need to record the words and see how they're being pronounced. +So that if everyone if if people who wrote the dictionaries didn't know people'd still be going round thinking that everyone said fore head or break fast. +Things like that. +Okay now what have you done on punctuation? +What do you think punctuation means? +Oh sorry. +Oh it's my fault leaving it there. +Erm +Okay how about erm do you know how where to put commas and full stops and? +Sometimes. +Full stops then which +Full stops +which is the easiest. +After like Monday and +Okay. +after Monday and names and +Right erm so when you read for reading. +Oh well we'll we'll have a look at these I E words and we'll have a look at punctuation some time. +How where to put full stops. +Remind me before the end of this lesson and we'll have a little look at how to get full stops right cos it's not too hard with those. +I E mm right. +What have we got here? +Could you could you write thief? +Thief. +Mm. +T mm +Go on. +T H +T H right ooh that's nice writing that's nice that's very and now +E I +Well lets have a look +E I pen isn't it. +Now ooh okay. +Erm now you're putting you're E I again aren't you. +Right so it's very awkward erm really you just think, I can't remember is it I E, E I. +You write it down and you think, Mm maybe that's right maybe it's the other way. +so there's a fairly good rule that works nearly all the time. +The first thing to do is is it making an E sound this I E? +E yeah. +E yeah okay so we can use the rule which should now work pretty well all the time. +So it's I before E except after C. +So is it after a C does the I E come after a C? +No so it's going to be I E. +So try T H I E That's it and then the? +What? +What's what's the last letter? +H innit +F. +thief. +Oh F. +Yeah thief. +Okay that's it. +Now on your own have a go at chief. +Chief. +Alright chief. +Chief? +Chief. +Chief. +Like an Indian chief or +C +That's it. +Okay very good. +And brief. +Mm. +Oops missed the I +Mm do it again that one with with the with the whole lot in. +Just just one line through when you cross out. +Brief. +Oh not again. +So +do the B R and then stop and think do B R and then think now which am I gonna do I E +R scribble there . +So do yeah. +Now +I F +That's it okay So if you can remember that rule the these these words are ones that a lot of adults get wrong a lot of the time. +They'll they and they you'll see them going mm not that not that one back to the first I don't know and then they get the dictionary out. +Yeah. +and they have a look and then they say, Oh I'm sure it wasn't that way. +So how about grief? +Grief. +That's just the same with a G. +Exactly right very good yeah well done. +So if that's brief, grief is going to be the same cos it's the same +Mhm. +rule. +How about erm field. +Erm +As in a football field. +Does it make an E sound? +L +Yeah so it's I it makes an E sound so we use it this I E or E I is it after a C? +No so brilliant. +So it's a good rule that. +There are quite a lot of words that that will work for. +Now let's try the other ones where it's after a C okay. +Let's try could you spell ceiling? +It starts with a C I'll give you a clue on that. +Mm. +And the next thing that happens is an E sound. +That's brilliant. +That they that's it exactly. +Have you ever spelt it before? +No. +See so it's just by learning the pattern it's like say if you were you were playing football every time somebody every time the ball came towards you you had to learn all about the way the ball goes Oh it's you know it's slowing down cos the grass is wet and it's curling and things like that. +If you had to learn every time you couldn't spot patterns you'd never you'd never be able to play football cos you'd be you'd always be a learner wouldn't you. +You'd always be thinking, Oh what's go what's going to happen to this. +but as yo as you learn +Hold on. +Watering the garden eh? +Is that your dog or next door's? +the dog's +Oh. +So I think that was pretty good I think it was brilliant in fact ceiling you've never seen it before worked out how to spell it. +So it's a good rule this. +Now how about receive? +These are ones these are ones that a lot of adults get wrong, receive. +Okay is that a is that a Y that last one? +Yeah. +Er receive V +V. +V what sound does a Y make on the end of a word? +Right tacky +Oh. +or jolly, happy makes a makes the E sound usually. +So that's that's that's great you've got the hard bit recei and then it's V that Y should be a V E so just cross the tail off the Y. +Receive erm there are there aren't a lot of other words that do have C in well there are but they're quite sort of awkward words like try deceive. +Deceive. +Just finish off receive so that's V E okay receive try deceive. +Deceive oh. +That's it. +That is brilliant. +I've never heard of that word. +Ah if you're erm conning someone you +Calling +con conning someone +Oh conning . +You're giving them a a load of old flannel and trying to trying to trying to persuade them that something's true you're deceiving them. +Yeah erm you give you give you give me the money now and I'll give you the elephant later it's just round the corner. +You know. +Oh it's a good car this yeah it's only done two thousand miles. +One lady owner a vicar's wife you know. +Okay erm now so does what what are the rules about this I E thing? +I before the E except C. +Except when it comes after C except after C. +That's brilliant but that's only when it makes an E sound. +Now there are some I E words E and an I or an I and an E and it doesn't make an E sound. +How about erm things like ooh foreign can you spell foreign? +Foreign? +Or neighbour, do you ever watch neighbours ? +Neighbour. +No. +Nor me can't stand it. +The first time I watched it I thought That's wrong. +Okay that's not right but what's what's right about it? +It starts with N ends in S okay. +N something. +Erm is this a D or a B? +Oh. +Okay so that's a B. +Yeah. +Erm you don't always get it wrong you've been doing quite well but occasionally you just if you're +Mm. +if you I think it happens when you're worrying about something else in the word and you're concentrating on something else thinking, Ooh what's he want here is it going to be an E I or an I E or what. +You're concentration goes it's like er it's like someone's going to try and head it in to the net and he's trying to work out which corner it's going into and he's +Yeah. +so busy working it out he misses the ball in the end. +Yeah. +Concentrating too much on the little details rather than the main thing so B and D quite important to get those. +Erm right mm Do you know you know you know D and B don't you? +You don't need to practise them at all you know which one's which. +Yeah. +Cos some people have trouble with them and they can't see a difference they can't see any difference. +I know. +But er I don't think you are at all dyslexic are you. +No one ever mentioned that +I don't think so. +Okay other other words with do you think you could look that one up? +Neighbour it's erm it's quite an awkward word it comes in occasionally you can look it up if you like. +look it in a di have you got a dictionary? +I don't think so erm +Erm. +probably. +Look in the do you get +Yeah I've got +a T V Times? or Radio Times or the paper . +We've got we've got a dictionary yeah. +Right if you haven't if you can't find the dictionary you could look in the paper see what time Neighbours is on. +Mhm. +And it'll say you'll see how to spell it . +Erm do you read the paper at all? +What do you read? +The what's on telly what's on the cinemas +Mhm. +erm +Anything else you read er football pages anything like that ? +Yeah a bit about football. +Okay. +Erm when you read it you come across strange words you know words that maybe you know you've heard them but you wouldn't think of trying to write them. +Erm +Well I read +Well if you if you couldn't read it yeah you can get someone to help you but if you can't u usually see you know quite a lot of words. +You know a lot more words than you know how to spell don't you. +And this is the problem. +Erm as you get older once you get to my age you can spell most of the words you know. +But at your age you know so many words you couldn't really be expected to spell all of them and you're you're thinking Oh whatever I do I every word I write down is wrong. +And it's not. +Something like ooh nine out of ten maybe more than that perhaps ninety five out of every hundred words that you write down are okay they're spelt correctly it's just the awkward ones. +The only trouble is the teachers keep giving you all the awkward one don't they everybody +Yeah. +does because those are the ones you have to learn how to spell. +Now they don't come in right today we're going to spell can anyone spell is? +Ooh that's a hard one. +Right he goes Now who's going to spell cat? +Right all these words you know how to spell them. +But there's some awkward ones and they've got to concentrate on the awkward ones so that you get this impression I can't spell anything. +We had twenty spellings yesterday and I only got five right. +Okay but they were f they were twenty awkward ones if they said right we'll have you pick any twenty words you know and see if you can spell them you'd get twenty out of twenty wouldn't you. +Okay. +The maths now +The maths we'll have a we'll have a look at that erm tied deceive Right can you spell eight? +Eight? +Eight number eight think about maths. +It's one of these I E words but it doesn't make an E sound does it? +Good that's it good go on. +Oh. +That is brilliant. +Excellent. +Now that is a very awkward word I mean it's nothing like that it should be A T E shouldn't it. +that doesn't look a could you do weight? +That's that's that's eight. +Yeah and weight's just the same but +Just the same. +Go on. +Right now it is just the same is that what you've written though? +What. +What did you do. +Eight. +There? +That's eight yeah +Yeah. +and what have you got here? +Weight. +What does it say? +Oh wight. +Right wight. +Quite wight. +So I I think you get bored with some of this when it's easy you're looking at that and you think, Oh I can do this just put a W in front of tr . +yeah and then mm and you forget +Yeah. +you're you're not concentrating so you need to concentrate a bit on making sure that you finish off like you know somebody's somebody's passed to you're right in front of the goal all you've got to do is tap it in and you think, Oh anyone could do this which foot should I no problem +And then by the time +Cos you just lose lose concentration. +Yeah I haven't kicked the ball yet. +Mm you've got to keep on top of it and keep with it . +Mm. +So how a so write that one out again s with the the way it should be for weight . +Yeah that's it on the same line . +Weight. +Hang on that's eight. +Yeah ei oh +That's E I right. +Now you tried it there and you left the E out now you've left the I out. +Oh. +Okay third time lucky oh that was sneaky just got it in. +Right weight and last one freight freight. +Freight? +Have you heard of a freight train? +No. +Ah Fr +Okay you can do eight you can do weight so can you do +have a guess at freight. +That's it. +Erm can you do height? +Height? +Height sounds as if it should be pronounced hate. +Height. +it's the same as same as eight. +Is it? +Yeah. +I I hate my height. +just do eight. +There there's eight. +Eight. +And then put an H in front of it and it's height. +Oh yeah. +Which is ridiculous cos if you put a H in front of it it should say hate. +I know. +So so it's absolute rubbish some of this +or +spelling isn't it. +or hite heat. +H E I +Hate. +H E I G T +Nothing like it absolutely nothing like it. +So try and remember that I E one when it makes an E sound I before E except after C now that's going to help you with quite a few words. +It won't handle all of them it won't mean you're g always going to get all your spellings right now +But +but it'll mean you can get a lot of them . +most of the I Es. +Yeah you'll be getting most of those right and you won't have to learn sit up all night saying, Oh he's given me another thirty five I E words to learn tonight. +Mhm. +It'll work for a lot of them. +Erm I did say we'll just have a quick mention punctuation before we look at the maths. +Yeah. +Erm +What does punctuation mean? +Punc punctuation do you want to try and do you want to just write it down. +P P U N. +Title title +Oh yes oops sorry you you write it. +P U N C +P U N C +Punc +P U N C +T punct and then U letter U and then ation A T I O N. +And underline the title. +For next time if you like you can think of some tion words and and write them down. +Words ending in tion like station a railway station or see how many you can but punctuation. +The real reason you put it in is to make it obvious what we mean. +So people don't get mixed up about what exactly we mean and to help when you're reading it. +So if you're reading something out. +This is about maths so we'll have a look in that for punctuation. +Mm not many here not much so we'll questions. +I mean most of these end in question mark. +So the main thing about punctuation is first you know you know the main points. +Erm just going to start a sentence what would I do? +Capital letter. +Right okay and now I've finished a sentence How do i finish a sentence? +That's it now that that's m that's about sort of seventy f seventy five percent of punctuation. +Capital letter for the first one full stop at the end that's the main point. +If you follow that, people can understand what you're writing. +And they can have a good guess. +And then sometimes you need to put commas in if they're are long lists. +When else would you need capital letters? +Writing the date. +Right okay. +Days days of the week +Writing +writing the month yeah. +Writing names of people +writing names of people what about if you're writing names of countries would you ? +Mm. +Yeah. +Okay so the important things capital letters and full stops you already know how to use them. +Okay so you're okay on on that, what about commas? +No. +Don't know nothing about them. +Well if we had a long a long thing to read. +I've got some here. +Er here we are. +Okay I'll move it round there. +How about this one about cricket? +Could you read all that could you read that? +Go on read it out. +Cricket is a popular sport in Yorkshire. +Sometimes members of the Yorkshire team are chosen to play the England and they play against teams from Australia. +The West Indies and Pakistan. +What about the West Indies and Pakistan? +So the way you read it you said And they play against teams from Australia and then you said and then you stopped there but you said The +Mm. +West Indies and Pakistan. +Now this is where we use commas. +So cricket is a popular sport and so on. +The Yorkshire team are pos are chosen to play for England and they play against teams from Australia comma the West Indies and there should really be a comma there and Pakistan. +. +There should really be a comma there but we've got a funny twist to the rule we don't put comma before the and don't put a comma before the and. +Like if there's a full stop you don't put and next to it. +That's right. +You know quite a few rules don't you about punctuation that's good. +So a comma we use it in lists of things. +Erm next year I'm going to play for Liverpool, Everton, Tranmere Rovers, Chelsea and erm +Sheffield Wednesday. +and Sheffield Wednesday and Sheffield Unan nited and Manchester United if if they'll let me. +If they'll let me . +And if I'm and if I'm fit enough. +Okay. +so I'm going to play for Manchester comma +But +Tranmere comma when there's a list of things okay +It should be commas +you have commas but don't do a comma before the last so er if I said tonight I'm going to have sausage, egg, chips, beans, tomatoes and cake. +Right where would the commas go? +I'm going to have sausage, egg, chips, beans, tomatoes and cake . +Comma next to sausage what else is there? +Eggs. +Eggs so comma but all of them just before the last one. +Okay so they're all so could you write this one down then tonight I'm having fish, chips and peas. +I am having +F erm well what would you like? +Sausage, egg and chips. +Yeah. +Okay. +Oh sausages +Ah +You should think before you say yes. +How do you spell sausages oh dear. +Well it's a some it's a German word it's a funny word and it's S A U +S +S A U sausages. +Sausages. +S A U S so that's saus and then ages A G E S. +Sausages. +Sausages. +What were we having sausages? +Comma +Yeah sausages comma erm we can have what we like can't we. +Oops. +Beans. +Sausages +Beans. +Sausages, egg and beans. +Okay. +Egg no comma because it's +No comma there because there's the and coming you learn very quickly very good. +And you can spell beans. +Do you know another way and what goes at the end what goes at the end of the sentence? +Full stop. +Now you told me how to start a sentence +A capital letter. +But what you do a lot I think is you know how to do quite a few things but you're concentrating I mean here you're thinking, Ah all I'm doing now is where w w get the commas in the right place. +and while you're thinking about that you forget all about everything else. +Now you've got to keep on top of what you already know. +Keep +Sort of keep on so that you're building on that all the time so you think right okay I know how to do capital at the start, full stop at the end, keep that don't let that go just cos I'm concentrating on something else. +So what am I going to do right I starting a I'm starting off so let's gets the capital. +Now I can forget that. +Now I can now what am I doing I'm doing commas. +Okay now I've finished my commas I've finished the sentence now what do I do now right full stop. +So you're sort of thinking at different levels. +watch. +Doesn't matter. +let it go. +So +It goes on for a minute. +Ah that's alright. +So capital capital T there but you have a look at what you've just done. +Tonight, not an easy word to spell I mean you might think it is but a lot of people spell it incorrectly. +You see it written down all over the place incorrectly. +N I T E at the end of it. +You do you see things like that so tonight okay I helped you with sausages but you got most of it. +Beans could you write erm I have been out. +I have been out I have been out today. +Good capital full stop. +And what's the difference between this been and that bean? +That's been like going out +Right. +and +That's the one you eat. +Okay well they're two completely different spelling different things and you got them bot right I didn't I didn't help you I didn't even say and think about which sort of bean you're using or anything like that did I. +You know I think I think your spelling I think your spelling and your general English is pretty good. +But I think the problem is that you you only concentrate on little bits at a time. +Mm. +And you you forget what you already know or you don't bother with it you don't bother sort of concentrating on that thing, Oh let's get that bit right. +Erm you're just looking at a little bit that's new and you're forgetting about the old stuff. +Okay so you need to keep it all keep a general picture. +Make it a team if you like you know get all the all the other bits of stuff that you know all the other knowledge get that coming in all working together so the whole thing just flows up and down nicely instead of +Mm. +jumping about. +Okay I think that's very good really I I don't think I think you're writing is very nice as well. +What do you think? +It's okay. +It's I think it's pretty good. +Erm one problem I think is that you can you tend to look at letters I think sort of one or two letters together erm instead of trying to think of a whole word. +Because I when you do think about the word then you leave some of the letters out. +So maybe think of them as syllables little bits say if we're going to say something like Tranmere Rovers. +Say Tran- mere Ro- vers . +Mm. +Split it into each one so you'd write, Tran, I've got that, mere, Ro, vers like that erm and then you're not going to miss bits out. +Cos you could easily easily miss bits out. +Okay I thank I think tell me e tell me what where you'd put capitals on this one about the cricket. +On the P. +Right tell me where you'd start off with capitals. +Good so first one because it's the first in the sentence that's an +C +automatic one +Cricket. +on that C. +Right and what happens next? +Cricket is a popular sport in ? +Yorkshire. +Right so capital Y for that. +Full stop here . +Good yeah full stop. +So Starting a new sentence. +Oh. +Okay so good a capital letter on there yeah. +times members of Yorkshire +Good. +Capital letter full stop. +Hold it +Capital letter erm +Sometimes members of the the Yorkshire team Yeah you could have it you could have a a capital on that. +Mm. +But no full stops yet cos we haven't finished a sentence we haven't +Oh. +finished what we're saying about them . +Yeah. +Sometimes members of the Yorkshire team +are chosen to play for England and they play against +Okay. +teams +Capital E for England yeah. +Mm. +and they play against +teams from Australia, the West Indies and Pakistan. +Okay so what's what punctuation along along here? +Mm comma. +Okay so let's go for the easy one first and get it out of the way. +Before we forget it at the end. +Full stop. +Okay. +Australia country capital A and as you say comma, the West Indies capital W and I and +Pakistan full stop. +Right and a full stop. +I think you're pretty good at english and punctuation I think well you tell me what do you think you've got to concentrate on? +Mm Mm. +Don't know. +Yes you do go on tell i what have I just been telling you then that you need to concentrate on that I think you should be concentrating on. +Well just don't think about one thing and forget about all the others. +It's it's if you think about say you're playing football. +Mm. +Now you've got to be at different levels all the time. +You're thinking about if the ball is coming to you you're watching the ball. +It's going to finish up about ten yards in front of me. +Okay I'm running a bit faster I'm going to be there. +Right well forget about thinking about that for a moment I'll look round where everyone else. +He's over there, he's running up through there, +Mm. +he's on the left wing, +Ah. +two defenders coming up, they're probably going to get to me so I'm going to pass it as soon as I get it. +What's going on all around you so then you concentrate on the ball again. +So you're concentrating on the little bits you're doing and then you're +Mm. +moving back a bit to get the bigger picture what's going on +Yeah. +with everything else and then you zoom in again and concentrate on. +So you need to do this in lot's of jobs in maths, in english, in any any work that you do. +Sometimes you see someone painting a door or something and get that little bit done there and then they step back to make sure they haven't missed something cos they could be it could be so obvious to anyone who's just standing, What's he doing there he's left a big piece in the corner there that +Yeah. +he hasn't painted. +Mm. +He's going , Ooh look there's a little tiny thin bit there I haven't done Oh +No. +yes that's fine. +He's only looking at that bit. +That and then you leave +That's it so you can do these same with your words. +You're concentrating to getting the I E or the E I and you leave half of it off or something. +So concentrate and then sort of pull back a bit from it and check the main bits and a good way is going through the sounds of each syllable. +So if someone said erm, Czechoslovakia, go Czech-o-slo-vak-i-a. +Mm. +Like that and you'll that sounds right I mean you think, I don't know how to spell it. +Mhm just do that . +but you could do like that . +Czech-o -so-vak- i-a . +Czech-o -slo-vak-i-a. +And people would know what you meant even if you didn't spell it right. +Thank you. +Erm no I'm fine thanks. +Now I would like you to tell me about numbers. +Numbers? +Mhm. +What are they? +Numbers erm +What do we use them for? +Maths. +Well it's a bit like that's a bit like saying what do you use words for? +English. +Oh right. +don't use words just for eng I mean you use words mainly for talking +Mm. +don't we. +Would you like a drink please? +No thank you. +Erm do you want to come out and play? +No I'd rather do my english. +I don't like football any more, I'd rather do maths. +Things like that it's for letting that's what words are for well numbers are for telling other people how much you how much do you Would you like a cup of coffee? +No I'll just have half a cup please. +Yeah. +Okay. +Erm what time are you coming out to play football? +Oh +Ooh. +about half past three. +Or ten P M . +Or in about two hours time. +Mm. +So all these numbers come into your life all the time it's not just for maths you need +go to the shop and you're wondering if you've got the right change. +Exactly or have go enough money. +Mm. +How much are those Lion bars? +Oh they're thirty four P each. +What rip-off . +Can I get can I get can I get three of them. +And will I get three out of a pound? +Is a pound enough to get Lion bars? +Don't know you'd have to work it out okay. +So that's that's why erm the numbers are important it's not for maths. +Now this is open here is this were there particular things you wanted to do? +Time +D time? +Well I know me time we we we done that not so long ago. +Okay. +And you're happy with erm twenty four hour clock? +No. +No well it's dead easy there's a little trick on the twenty four hour clock +Twelve thirteen is one +Okay. +fourteen is two fifteen is three +Right okay so you so I asked are you happy with the twenty four hour clock you say no and then you know it . +Erm +I've seen the paper +An awful lot of adults have awful they have an awful lot of adults +like the twenty and all the +Okay twenty what time is twenty thirty? +Erm. +Mm. +give me a minute. +Don no don't do it in your head just write it down there +Oh yeah. +just write twenty thirty. +Okay and we have to put something in between there. +put a yeah. +Right +Yeah now take twelve away from the twenty right twelve underneath it and take it away. +No one says you can't write it down don't have to do it in all in your head do you. +No twelve er an an twelve well twelve away from twenty +Mhm. +Twelve is ten and two isn't it. +If you took the ten away from the twenty how many would you have left? +Ten. +Ten if you took +Eight. +That's it you were there before me right. +So take the ten away and the you have ten left over and then take the two away from that so eight. +So what time is twenty thirty put the just put the eight under the twelve there. +Eight o'clock . +We've still got thirty still got thirty cos we haven't taken any so perhaps put twelve nought nought under that and take it away . +Half eight. +Half eight at night. +Erm on twenty four hour clock then what time would seven o'clock be? +How would you work that out? +Twe on the twenty four hour clock what time would seven o'clock be? +Mhm. +Oh I won't bother writing this +So +one down. +Why not? +Okay what are you going to do then? +Tell me what you're going to do? +Fifteen is three, sixteen is four +Mm. +seventeen is five eighteen is six nineteen is seven. +Okay nineteen. +So nineteen. +Seven o'clock could be ni nineteen hundred hours. +Oh well I think you're alright on those. +Erm what about I'm just trying to find something that you're not good at. +Divided. +Divi division? +Okay. +Share between and all +Mm. +That's the that's the most awkward thing to do the one that most people have most problem with. +Let's have a quick look at where the numbers came from. +Okay. +The first numbers we got were just counting numbers. +Everyone's happy with those with that you can do three add five? +Yeah if I said do three add five would you actually do that would you do three add five or would you do five add three? +Five add three. +Good so what would that come to? +Five three eight. +Okay now so let's say if we had some numbers you you can you could make your own notes about this. +If we're doing add we're just starting off with the counting numbers. +So we can say start with counting numbers. +Right start with cou counting numbers? +Counting numbers those are the numbers you use for counting things with like three or six or most people call them the normal numbers. +Now we're going to see what happens +counting erm cou +Ah counting C O U N T count counting numbers. +count start start with counting what? +Numbers. + +Suddenly everyone seems to be talking about the menopause so we thought that you'd better hear what women really think. +There's still a lot of mystery, worse, misinformation surrounding this milestone in a woman's life. +So tonight the wraps are off and I think you'll agreeably surprised by what you hear! +I'd like to start with a vote. +Do you want more information about the menopause? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And, in this hundred goodness! +Ninety one people say yes, only nine say no! +Now, why did you, why did you say yes? +Is it because yo , you you haven't got the information? +You don't have enough?it's not available to you? +Yes? +I feel that there is an awful lot of gossip and scare tactics about it and I'd like to, to have a real expert information on it. +Have you tried to information before? +Not ver , not very much. +Mainly +I +mainly through, mainly through gossip! +Gossip? +Aha. +And what does the gossip say? +Every, for everything er from it's all in your mind to it's dreadful! +Right, front line. +Yes. +I think actually I would like to get some, some more information and men should get some more information because they are the ones who are dismissing and er not sort of going along with it. +Mm. +Well out there, they're they're watching so who else said yes? +I'd feel the local doctors, your local G P's are needing to be brought more into to line with it. +I've personally had problems with one doctor cos he was out of date, he wasn't you know, wasn't aware of some of the treatments and I had to actually enlighten him to some of the the treatments that was available for people! +Really? +Aha. +Yes. +Ho and how did you know he was out of date? +Because ee er, some of the subjects I brought to him but he didn't know nothing about them! +He had to you know, he'd, he'd to leave it and consult with colleagues or whatever. +So I feel that +And where were you +you know, that G P's that's been practising for a long number of years you know er, elderly G P's are probably not as up-to-date on these kind of things as they should be. +Aha. +This one. +I had a few problems when I was about thirty and my doctor told me it was just my age and the menopause! +From thirty! +And I started it about fifteen years later! +Now when do yo , when your doctor said that when you were thirty di did you believe him or her? +It was a him. +A him. +A doctor younger than myself, and I didn't believe him! +And, I just tu but there was nothing else I could do! +I couldn't argue with him I just had to go and say oh well it's just my age and get on with it! +Yes? +I'd like to know more about it because having gone through it without any eventuality I'd quite like to know what I missed! +If anything! +And if, in fact, this H R T I'm really missing something, you see, that's what I'd like to know. +I don't think that er, I think that unfortunately some of the older doctors definitely were misinformed and weren't educated and I think nowadays that the doctors are becoming very much more educated and perhaps the ones who have the bad time are the fortunate ones in so far as they're getting the hormone replacement therapy if they're lucky and they have sympathetic general practitioner. +And the ones who haven't had the bad time might well be suffering because they're not being allowed the benefits of hormone replacement therapy. +Now you're a G P? +Yes. +And so obviously you're very well clued up. +Th does that mean the older people here have had a raw deal? +I mean,th those people who've gone through the menopause wo would any of you like to say anything about experience? +Yes? +Er, well +Er +No, yes yes! +Nelly? +Na er well of course I'm seve seventy nine but I can still remember most of it and I did have a very bad time! +Moods, bad moods and going to I gave my husband a terrible time! +I really did! +But he was very understanding and, the doctor just seemed to think that that was a natural course I had to go through! +But er, it lasted, I was forty seven and it didn't finish till I was about sixty! +But people complain sometimes about the flushes, but I was glad when I had a flush because I felt better after having flushes! +I think we've got to look at the other side of the +Aha. +as well that I personally a agree with the lady over there as I'm now, with all the talk of hormo , hormone replacement wonder what it was? +How much better life would have been if I'd known about that or used it? +I'm from the group, the change you change +Mhm. +and er when I was going through the change and I'm post menopause er and having terrible feelings, I'd nowhere to go! +I went round all the hospitals in Edinburgh and Leith all the doctors surgeries and there was nowhere and I ended up at the the women's unit in Edinburgh City Chambers and I got help from the women's unit and er from there we started a pressure group to get more literature to people, you know to get them into doctor's surgeries so as they would know what to do, what to expect. +Helen? +In we've had a menopause clinic in Glasgow for the last twenty four years erm, it's run by a male doctor erm but we have been treating patients for that length time. +We're extremely interested in the women we try to treat them as individuals we cope with a lot of problems and I think if we look as women as individuals, each individual woman has a different problem. +We all basically have flushes, sweats, depression and various other problems, but basically the ladies who present with flushes and sweats are the ladies who in fact get help for ladies who don't present with flushes and sweats finish up as osteoporotic and they're the ones we are very concerned about! +We don't see them until they're too late and they're having fractures of the spine and shrinking two percent of bone less in a year! +Are you suggesting that every woman going through the menopause should get some kind of clinical help? +It should be offered to her +Mhm. +if she wants it. +I'm not telling every woman to take me H R T, I'm suggesting that it's preventative medicine. +We don't stop diabetics having insulin. +If the ovaries are removed, ovaries stop working there is treatment there to prevent us having disease, why shouldn't we take it and why shouldn't we have a better life? +Linda? +I'm, er, the director of the National Osteoporosis Society and we started five years ago and as Helen said just now, we are in the business of informing women, not saying all women should be going on hormone replacement therapy! +Some women certainly will sail through menopause with never a hot flush and no problems at all, sadly that's no indication that they're not going to have problems from their bones later on. +Now i , let's let's do a bit of definition of terms here, osteoporosis is what +It's bones that are too porous literally, so that they break very easily +Aha. +and that accounts for the hip fractures and the the er spines collapsing in +Mhm. +older women, losing height a lot of pain from these fractures and it's bones that are too porous so they're not holding you up sufficiently as you get older. +And how can that be alleviated? +By hormone replacement therapy, that's the main way of of helping. +You can do things for yourself in the way of diet, exercise, good lifestyle, not smoking and so on but, a lot of women will need hormone replacement therapy just to replace the hormones that dear old mother nature stop supplying to us at the menopause. +Hundred years ago we didn't live this long! +Now that we do live much longer with better health care generally, what we want is for women to be able to live that last third of their lives in health and being able to enjoy themselves and contribute to the community, not feeling that they're crippled by pain. +Now, am I right in saying that there has been some controversy in the past about hormone replace , let's call it H R T, it's shorter, that er that not everyone's convinced it's it's it's a good idea, that there are maybe some negative side effects. +I mean,wha what is the latest information on on H R T? +You were right in saying that there was very bad press given to hormone replacement therapy in in the early days when they used very high doses of of er un er, of normal oestrogens and this caused an increase in the amount of end of uterus, uterine cancer and this I think has generally er mo mo mo ruined the course for for the older doctors because they still think that it's associated with an increase in cancer and they haven't got up to date to realise that the more modern preparations are not causing this and that's where I think th the problems li lie. +Yes? +We are in the course of giving H R T. +The ladies are monitored very carefully and scanned and sometimes they pick up cancer in another part of the body which +Mhm. +is a bonus and a benefit to the sufferer and that is er an extra thing with H R T. +Here. +I'd like to say that I'm actually on hormone replacement therapy and I'm not being monitored . +I've been on it for over three years and I'm quite concerned about some of the things I've heard tonight and I'm going to make an appointment +Well that's all the things that concerns us. +and see my doctor about it straight away! +It's not only woman who need to be better informed it's the doctors as well! +Here here! +Yes? +I would like to ask, if one of these medical ladies could tell us? +How, how, what percentage of these signs of the menopause are inherited tendencies? +Who would like to who'd like to answer that one? +Yes? +I will. +I I there is no evidence that it's an inherited or venereal problem and this is the, you know you we have there has been lots of sort of studies done to see which woman might be more at risk and which women, you know, might have symptoms and th , the fact is that the reason why you, why the menopause occurs is because the ovaries stop functioning, they stop producing oestrogen and every woman's ovaries does this and they do it you know, at all varying ages the average age is fifty. +But the most interesting thing about it is that i the actual level oestrogen bears no relationship to your symptoms as er Sheila has said, you can have two women with the sa exactly the same level of oestrogen and one woman is having awful problems and the other woman is, as we have heard, having no problems at all! +A year I had all the symptoms and I went and got a book and read about it and tried to find out as much possible about it and the book scared me silly because it told me all these things that could happen +Oh yes! +and I was upset so I went to my doctor who's a lady doctor and she's young, she explained things to me and she put me on H R T and it changed my life completely! +It th , I was depressed, I had swe sweats, night sweats and my husband was all , he couldn't sleep at night and it changed it completely! +And, the worse thing for me was I lost my self confidence, I had no confidence whatsoever.,. +in all areas, work-wise +Mm. +at home with my family, whenever I went on the H R T everything changed! +I felt better, I looked better, I di I didn't feel, my skin was better, my hair come back, it was just marvellous for me! +Absolutely marvellous! +H R T +Well women don't want to +Le let Louise say! +May I just say, I thi , I think it's important to point out that H R T isn't a miracle cure! +And although it will grea , greatly help some women, unfortunately some women are unable to tolerate it, the side effects it gi , it gives them are worse than the actually symptoms they're having in the first place. +It means having periods back again which after, and now, er several years break and erm, many women find unacceptable. +We all have to have that. +You don't have that? +We do have, we ha , we have tablets for that. +Yes? +Over here! +I must admit, after I'd finished with the menopause I felt absolutely great! +I wasn't on H R T, I had a very easy transition from having periods to stopping having periods. +Er, I did go on H R T because of the osteoporosis risk, but I was unlucky I was one of the I think twelve percent who had developed breast trouble and had to come off it. +I think that er it is probably a very useful thing if you can tolerate it. +But I must admit, having a lifetime of painful periods and not having any more painful periods was absolute bliss! +And that's one of the drawbacks of H R T, it all came back again ! +Down here. +Yeah? +I was just going to mention the fact that if you have had breast cancer you cannot go on H R T cos it was a hormone that caused it in the first place! +Is that right. +Yes. +I think, one fact that probably, I'm sure yo , many of us know here is that the actual number of women on the H R T is really very small in this country! +It's probably less, about, between five and ten percent! +Mm. +So I mean th the instance of breast cancer is rising the instance of breast cancer, the number of cases of breast is rising, it rises with age. +Currently,th nu , H R T in this country will not be influencing the risks of breast cancer. +On the other hand, and it is extremely complex and it indeed, it probably erm amounts to the fact that each wom woman has to consider how she feels herself +Mhm. +about whether she would wish to run the risks of A, B, and C. +And the other condition we haven't mentioned is er th th th the risks of coronary artery disease and strokes which actually do, are the main cause of death o , in Scottish women! +And it's it's almost like saying that the, if you take H R T er, this is in our sort of survey that you will in fact erm, reduce the instance of heart disease but ma , might you, in in fact, increase the risks of breast cancer. +Your making it sound like a heads you lose, tails you lose situation! +It's a, it's a very, very complex issue! +I mean +And un unfor , and this is in fact is why indeed, general practitioners and even specialists find it very complex! +I mean, last month er +And and, and that is you, I mean you are a consultant gynaecologist and +That's right! +And +you're describing the complexity of it. +Yes! +If we're, if we're agreeing that women ought to be able to make informed choices, there's so much information it's actually very hard to make a, particularly if your +Yeah. +G P isn't as up-to-date as as as you might hope with the information him or herself. +Yes! +I sailed through the menopause, but then had lots of back problems. +And this was cracked fracture from osteoporosis now, if I had been getting H R T at that time I might have been less disfigured. +But, at least I'm on it now and hopefully, slowing down the osteoporosis and I don't care about the cancer, er scares! +I'd rather la , have the treatment and ha , and have a reasonable life. +Yes? +As a younger and have plenty of time to worry about the menopause before it happens +erm, all I can say is I'm glad to see that it's stopped being referred to as women's troubles, you know and we're actually bringing it out to the forefront. +But, is there anything that my generation could do now that might stop us requiring H R T in the future? +Alright. +Mhm. +I I think it's important, especially for for young women up to the age of about thirty five when your peak bone density is probably attained and after that you, you do go downhill, to maximise the calcium intake. +Nowadays people are worried about er, drinking milk and dairy products because of the cholesterol bit, but I think that we've got to remember that there's a lot of calcium in milk and you should drink milk and take plenty of exercise and that is the time when it's probably extremely important! +Yes? +Wha , what do you do if you're allergic milk? +Cos I haven't drink milk from, since a baby and +Well tha , that's a bit more difficult. +There are other foods that you can get it from, such as ice +Erm +cream, sardines +Yoghurt? +yoghurt. +No,co oh well you'll be allergic to that too. +I'm allergic, I'm allergic to a lot of foods! +Can I, I want to pick up er, something that that Margaret said which is, I've got lots of time to worry about it. +Now, obviously, you know,yo getting the menopause out into the open so that everyone can talk about it, exchange information that that it's not seen as a as a taboo or something to be particularly fearful of by men or women isn't going to be much good if it just makes everybody worry for er, for for the first half of o o o of their lives and, and then gibber through the second half! +I mean, +there is an argument,ha and it's been put by er a a noted writed who's recently written on the menopause that,work, and you should just make the most of being a crone or a hag or an old women! +No! +Now , I'm not saying I se , but it's a view that has been put forward,wha wha what do you think of that? +Yes? +I wouldn't actually say that you know, one has got to suffer unduly, but I think we do have to be very, very careful that we don't just play into the hands of the drug manufacturers! +See, they've got most women hooked on, on er contraceptive pill for all their reproductive life and they're dead keen that we should all get so worried about menopause that we would also be buying their products until we die! +Now, although I have great respect for er, the representative of the Osteoporosis Society I se , I still think as a epidemiologist that there haven't been enough women on H R T for long enough +Mhm. +for us to prove one way or the other that that, that that they co , the advantages out weigh the disadvantages. +So you think we have some guinea pigs here? +You have to be cautious! +How long do you want them to be on H R T for? +We've been following a group through in Glasgow who've been H, on H R T now for twenty three years! +Up there. +I think if you went and saw our own doctors a lot of our fears would be allayed because most of the young doctors wouldn't, would recommend to you, my own doctor asked me all the questions and different things and then he says he's a young doctor, he says if I were a women and if I'd answered all the questions as you did, I would go on H R T. +So, there might be a lot of doctors who would do. +Right. +Beside you? +Yes. +Yes? +I think you really highlights on working alongside with your doctor. +I think you'll be able to read up as much information as possible and see a doctor and consult and especially th where women's clinic are, a great boom! +And we should attend +Mm. +it more often. +Up there. +I would just like to say that erm, it's not all gloom and doom! +Mm. +The menopause isn't necessarily the end of our life, it can be the beginning of so many new different things. +Yes? +I I think erm, that it can be looked at to, without H R T or looking at it medically, because lots of the women at Dean Terrace, in fact have +That's a family planning +er problem That's right! +situation. +Yep! +but erm, have erm problems with what this lady has described who can't come to terms with +Mhm. +the er loss of their fertility and the loss of their children and, have sexual problems and problems like that, and they don't necessarily need H R T they need lots of time, which they're given. +And I think that helps them an awful lot! +Is it impossible that your sex life might improve after the menopause? +I mean I I wo er would anything like to say anything about +Do we have to? +No! +a friend's experience or anything like that? +Nelly? +Yes I would like to say, it was smashing after the +because you didn't have to worry that you were gonna have another child! +So, though I had a bad time, well I had a, I've had a great life since! +Good! +Up there? +What do you do about er, a doctor who says no? +I mean, do you change your doctor or what? +Yes. +Who would like to answer that one? +Yes? +Get more information first, so that you know all your facts and if you ask us we'll send him a booklet without saying who er, who asked us to send it and then go in and see him and say, now the Osteoporosis Society have said this and it's a very brave doctor who will then say absolutely no! +I'm, I'm not listening to you! +But, in the final analysis, if you can't get any help, if he won't refer you to a specialist for help change your doctor! +Because if the garage did your car badly you wouldn't have any hesitation in in changing your garage and your body's a darn sight more important than your car! +I think women +can sail into a beautiful old age with enthusiasm for hobbies, taking up new interests of all sorts and I've taken up skiing after the age of fifty and I'm, I feel I'm getting on well with it and this fresh air and and you know, getting out and finding who you really are after, you know, looking after children is is a wonderful thing! +And this will keep you young! +I don't have H R T, I didn't have any problems luckily, with the menopause but I feel I've I've found a bit more of who I really am, you know! +I'm very interested in that +because that is what Germaine Greer says in her book, it's only after the menopause that you have the freedom and the liberty, to find out +Yes! +Yes it +who you really are! +Does +Exactly! +does does does anybody, yes! +Yes. +Well I had a hysterectomy when I was forty nine and to me life really did begin at fifty! +I go dancing! +I'm now sixty two and I go dancing twice a week! +So, I mean apart from arthritis life's quite good! +Here. +Can I say, I'm thirty six and had a hysterectomy a year ago. +Mhm. +I'm taking flushes and whatever but I feel brand new compared to what I felt before I had a hysterectomy cos I was totally lifeless! +And I can agree with the ladies that say life begins once you get by all these problems that you had before. +Up there. +As a younger person I, I would expect that I've probably got another fifteen years to go to the menopause, but I'm looking forward to it as a relief from pre-menstrual syndrome! +And, I wondering if any of the experts can say if there's erm a link between the severity of menopausal symptoms and pre-menstrual symptoms? +Okay a final, final expert view on that. +Who would like +to offer a +fortunately no. +Yo erm your er it isn't your fate in life to have all this pro , though major problems erm, and I think P M S is a major problem. +And, in fact er I would hopeful that you will be feel better. +Yes. +Mm. +I have a question to the politicians. +The N H S cannot cope in the moment with you know, regular sort of cervical cancer smears. +Mhm. +How can they cope in the future with sort of er monitoring the effects of H R T? +Well er, that's for politicians watching, think about it to care about! +Yes? +Well if er, more women do take hormone replacement therapy and we cut the osteoporosis we will in fact have far money in the health service besi , because it costs a hundred and eighty million pounds a year to treat hip fractures alone at the moment! +Germaine Greer has coined a term which you may have read, which is er which is called PM zed! +Or PM zee, I suppose in America which she terms post-menopausal zest! +Is post menopausal zest something that er every woman could look forward to if she gets the right advice, the right +Definitely! +treatment? +Yes,! +I think this being an old hag is what is all in the mind! +If you're determined to enjoy the rest of your life you will! +Be positive! +Be positive about it, yes! +I don't agree with that Sheena! +No! +You only have to listen to what women here have told you and it's not psychological! +It's a myth! +It is physiological! +And there are plenty of people who have spoken here tonight have substantiated that! +Mhm. +, my first years had two children, had no breast problems and I'm having a horrendous time just now and I'm on H R T, I'm on my third different kind! +And I've had so , examinations and my doctor is very good! +Do , the doctor I have now is very good and very sympathetic! +But she feels there's nothing you actually can do to help me with! +Final word? +As I've said, I've been on H R T for three years and, I have since went back to work after being on H R T I don't think I'm an old hag! +I don't want to be like a film star, but I do want a better quality of life and I've got that with H R T! +We're going to have to end and I'm sorry about that because er, it's been very interesting! +You've heard a very broad range of views, erm, of all sorts! +I think the most important thing that we've done is talk about it. +Ninety one people here wanted more information. +There is information available. +I hope you can find it, er if yo if er if you want and and the important thing is to keep talking about it, keep exchanging information. +Thanks everybody here for your experiences and information! +Goodbye! + +Somebody once said that if angelism, sharing the gospel was one beggar telling another beggar about bread, where it could be found and undoubtedly when he was saying that he was thinking of that story that account that we had read to us earlier from the second book of kings, chapter seven, and I'd like us to er turn back to us for a few moments this morning and perhaps draw some lessons for ourselves Sometimes as Christians its very easier for us to say what sins are, and we can see other people's failings, you don't have to be a Christian to do that of course, plenty of other people can do that, they see the failings of other people, they see the wrong doing they do, they see their wickedness their, their waywardness, whatever words we want to use to describe it, and we say well that is sin, perhaps for most of us this morning we could make er a list a, a, a tabulate a table of sins and we might say well they are worse sins and there are lesser sins and I would I suppose by and large there would be a fairly reasonable consensus of opinion regarding what was sins and what were not sins. +Sometimes the bible surprises us a little bit of course, and it puts it finger on things that we perhaps don't really want to talk about or we don't even consider as sins and the bible is quite clear that not all sins are what we do often there what we don't do in parable that Jesus told concerning the traveller, the man who went down to Jericho, we don't condemn the priest and the levite for what they did, but we do condemn them for what they didn't do, their sin was not what they did, it was what they left undone, going over and looking at the man was very note worthy, as least there was some interest there and we don't condemn them for that, but we do condemn them for hurrying along and not reaching out and helping the man in the Pistol of James and chapter four and verse seventeen James says there, any one then who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins so the sins that you and I comment or the sins rather that we are guilty of are not just the things that we do there of times the things that we don't do and sometimes there more difficult for us to put a finger on, we can justify them so very easily its been said that all it needs for evil to triumph, is for good men to say or to do nothing well lets look at the, that,illu illustration there that we have in the second book of kings. +As I mentioned early the, the city of Sermaria it was under siege and the army of Seria was encamped all around it, Ben Hadad was a great warrior, he would of been the, the Alexander or the Napoleon of his day and he had set up this encampment around the city of Sermaria, nobody could get in, nobody could get out and very quickly the stocks of food and water er were used up, rationing would of been introduced but it only lasted for a certain period, they'd got to the stage it tells us in the previous chapter that er, that a donkeys head was sold for eighty shekel's of silver and some folk had even got to the, had sunk to the level of cannibalism, of eating their own children and the city was, when they heard about this they were in an uproar and they started blaming god and in between the city of Sermaria of all its suffering and hopelessness and helplessness and the army encamped about with all of their supplies, there was this area of no mans land in which they were caught up four men who were leapers and they were trapped there, they didn't want to go over to the Serians because they'd be killed, they didn't want to go back into the city because they weren't allowed there and any way what was the point, they'd only die of starvation in there and so these four men are caught up in no man's land and yet their no better off than people in the city, now god had promised deliverance, through his serve and Eliger he had promised deliverance, Eliger said tomorrow about this time a measure of fine flour shall be sold for a se shekel and two measures of barley for a shekel in the gate of Semaria, he said the gates are gonna be open, there's gonna be food and its gonna be a reasonable price and it says the royal officer who's hand the king was leaning on said the man of god said behold, if the lord shall make windows in heaven could such a thing be, he said don't talk stupid man, how can such a thing happen for us?, he didn't believe what god servant said and Eliger brings out to him a terrible judgment, he says because of your unbelief you will see it, but your not participate in it but lets look at these four men for a moment, cos that's where our real interest lies this morning, I just wanted to say three things in their experience, the first things is that they were amazed that, at what they found, because after they come together and they talk about it and they said well what shall we do and they weighed the pro's and the cons and Semaria doesn't look very attractive with its cannibalism, they said well the least if we stay here were gonna die, if we go into Semaria we'll die, lets go down to the Serein camp, the worse they can do to us is put us to death and were dying men any way, but they may just take pity on us, we maybe allowed to grope around in their dustbins and get some scraps of food, they may at least allow us that, and so they make their way down just as evening is falling, they make their way down to the Serein lines and when they get there, they are amazed at what they find, you see their condition was helpless and hopeless, they were dying men any way, they were lepers, but they were dying of starvation, that was far more imminent than their leprosy, their problems and their needs were greater than themselves, they could not meet their own needs, their problems and their needs were greater than their government, the king in Semaria and all of his court could not meet the needs of his people and then in verse five, we read something there, they arose at twilight to go to the camp of Aramians or the Serein's and when they came to the outskirts of the camp of the Serein's behold there was no one there, they expected to at least meet a guard, there would surely be somebody on sentry duty even if the rest of the soldiers had gone in to their tents and were perhaps getting ready for their, for the evening, going to bed or whatever they were gonna be doing, having their evening meal, there would at least be somebody on guard duty, but when they got there, there was no one there, god had stepped in, god had intervened and the good news of the Christian gospel is that god has intervened in our, in the midst of our helplessness, in the midst of our hopelessness, god has intervened, he had stepped in to history, so often you'll hear folks say, well why doesn't god do something, why does god allow this to happen, why does god allow that one, why doesn't he do something all they really show by that comment is their own ignorance, because god has done something, god has intervened, listen to what it says in John three sixteen, for god so loved the world that he gave, he's only son and the er, the er apostle Paul and he's writing to the Gallations, in chapter four and in verses four and five hear what he says there,but when the time had fully come god sent his son, born of a woman, born under law to redeem those under law that we might receive the full rights of son, er of sons , god has done something, he's sent his son Jesus Christ into this world in fact his done the greatest thing he could do, he has done the very ultimate thing, he has sent his son into the world that's the greatest intervention god could ever have made, it was far greater than, than just intervening in sm , in some small local event, were you see some catastrophe happening and you say well why doesn't god do something there, or there's a war situation going on in some other part of the world, well why doesn't god step in and stop it, god has stepped in, not in a local situation, not in some er passing problem or need but he's stepped into the greatest way possible by sending his son Jesus Christ into the world to dye for men and woman, to take away sin, to pay the price that god's righteousness demands for sin so god has intervened and his intervention has changed the whole situation, its brought a whole new complexion on things, its changed the colour completely, no longer is the world now under darkness and in, and in pending judgment in doom, because Jesus Christ came and he took that judgment and that, that condemnation upon himself, he said I've not come to condemn the world he said its already condemned, its already under judgement, the sword of Damocles is already hanging over the world and Jesus Christ came in and to take that judgment and that condemnation on himself and when he died there on the cross and rose again, there came that burst of light in a world that had been shrouded in blackness and darkness, a world that had been shrouded in sin suddenly for the first time sees the light, god has paid for himself the price of sin, god has intervened and changed the whole situation and the message of the gospel is that if you and I allow that intervention to effect us personally, then like those four men surely we too are amazed at what we've found. +If we've come to guard and received forgiveness of sins, if we have become good followers of Jesus Christ and we are not amazed then there's something wrong with what we've received that god should so love, not just the world, but should so love me, that he gave his son to die for me and that was the sort of er discovery that these four lepers made they've come down there, they've found that the sight before them was amazing, there was no enemy there, the enemy had disappeared and the tents with all their contents were there before them, they were amazed with what they found and you and I when we come to god through Jesus Christ, we are amazed at what we find, we find forgiveness, we find the restoration of a relationship between ourselves and god, we find an access to receive god's blessing to receive his favour, to receive his gifts that he has for us, no wonder the apostle Paul cries out thanks beyond to god for his unspeakable gift, but then again these four men they were not just amazed that what they found, they were, they got absorbed in what they got, because they got a lot more than they bargained for, they possibly in their wildest dreams thought they might at least get, get what the cook was throwing out, they might get to, to the dustbins, they might get what was left over, that would of been great, they were dying of starvation, the driest mouldiest crust would of been like, like a banquet to them, but they got so much more than they anticipated and they got absorbed in it, every thing was there's for the taking as they pulled back the, the flap of the tent as they go in and they see the tables laid out there, they see the food and the drink, they see the plenty, these men who for weeks have known terrible poverty, there might of been a time earlier on in the siege when a few scraps got thrown over the city wall, when the bins were put out the side of the city of an evening, er they would go there and forage amongst them, but all that had stopped long since and it was only the bits and pieces that they managed to forage for themselves and get for themselves that they'd been eating of late, but here every thing is there for the taking, they rubbed their eyes, they pinched one another to make sure their not dreaming, it really is food and drink in a, in an abundance they couldn't of thought of a few mo hours earlier one moment they had nothing, the next they've got every thing, what was it they needed, food, the tables would of been laden with it, it was the food, enough food for an army and there's only four of them, did they, were they thirsty, here was drink, here was wine and, and drink in abundance the rags, the tatters they were dressed in, there were garments and wardrobe full of clothes here for them, did they need money, well the tents were full of the gold and the silver and, and, and valuables, there were a sufficiency, every thing was there you know the idea that the Christian life is drab and poor is such a terrible false hood, its an iniquitous lie of the devil, the tragedy is that we have actually often made it that way, we have made the Christian faith something drab, something boring, something for old folk er and er you know, people who are, who are, just wanting a crutch because their coming to the end of their natural life and we've made it something drab and dull listen to what the apostle Paul says when he's writing to Carinthian's in his second letter in chapter eight, he says you know the grace of our lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might be rich, god, he's purpose follows his people, he's not that we've a drab, grey, dull uninteresting life, Jesus said I've come that you might of life, and that more abundant, that in all its fullness and god has purpose for us, and when Paul is talking about riches there, he's not talking about pounds and pence, he's talking about the richness of the life that we enjoy its not a case of not doing this and having to do that the other thing, its a case of enjoying life as god purposes it, as god intends it you know if you don't enjoy your Christian life now, let me tell you your in for a rude awakening when you get to heaven, because the quality of life is not gonna change the only things that'll change is its la it, it will, it will be in his presence, the quality of life will not change because already now we have received eternal life, he has given his life to us and he hasn't got some other special, you know, super duper life laid up, there's nothing, there's nothing greater ahead, god hasn't got any thing greater for us than what he's already given to us in embryonic form here and now why if we take on er a, a, a dazzling scintillating new zest and zap when you get to heaven, that life is already given to you and to me know go back to these four men at the moment, they had never known any thing like this before this was better than all their birthdays rolled into one, this was the greatest day in their experience and if they would live to be a hundred they would never know another day like this, they were having a tremendous time, it said they, they, they, they went into one tent, listen to what they did, they went into one tent and they, they ate, they drank, they had a party and they carried from there the silver, the gold and the clothes and they went and hid they returned and entered another tent and then they did the same there, they were having a tremendous time, this was a beano to end all beano's, this was the greatest day in their life, they were having a wonderful time and why shouldn't they, why not you know there are folk who would, who'd want to make us as Christians er and er, ee, put us into a straight jacket the bible tells me even the sunsets free, is free indeed and I don't see any suggestions as I read the New Testament, that first of all the life of Jesus was drab and uninteresting, or that he expects me as his follow to lead a drab, a grey life, oh its not always gonna be a ple an easy life but that doesn't reduce the, the zest and the excitement in it but you see the danger is when having a good time is the reason for living and the only reason for it, you see, if god has intervened in our life, if the message of the gospel is true, if god in Christ has taken away your sin and made you in Christ a new creation then you have every reason to enjoy life, in a sense your only able to start enjoying life now, you may have enjoyed some of the things that, that folks suggest that make up life, but they've finished, there gone, what happens when the, when, when the wine has run out, what happens when the parties over, you know all about it the next day, don't you, what happens then, its such short lived, its only worth having whilst its coming to you all the time, but that's not so with a Christian life, because it doe , depend on just the things that we have or the experiences that we go through, because it is something that, that we have within, it is, it is a quality of life that we possess, because we possess the one who is life himself, listen to what Paul says when he's writing to Timothy in his first letter in chapter six it is command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant or to put their hope in wealth, those who think that, that er in having possessions that is the secret of life or, or in having a good time and, and, and the rest of it that is what life is all about, he said warn them not to do that, because that is so uncertain, he says but to put their hope in god who richly provides us with every thing what for, for our enjoyment, why has god given us these things, why is, why is god even, he is natural creation there for us, it is for our enjoyment, its not to make us miserable or to make us grey and drab and burden by it, it is for us to enjoy, when god created Ada Adam and Eve and put them in the garden, the, they were told to enjoy it, even the fruit enjoy it, its there for your benefit and then the new creation, every thing that god has provided is there for our enjoyment, but the dangers is when that enjoyment, is the reason for living and that's all we do it for and were so taking up with ourselves, I am gonna have my good time, I'm gonna enjoy myself as a Christian and I can do it and you can do it, you become insular and we become introverted and the only thing that matters is me having a good time, my world centres around me and me enjoying myself and me having this and me having that, this blessing and that gift and that other blessing, we become self centred and taken up with our own good times, as long as I can be there in the centre, as long as I can go from, from, from this celebration to that celebration, as long as I can go from this er festival to that festival to this special meeting to that one, I'm gonna have my good time well that was what these fella's were doing, they were going from tent to tent, from celebration to celebration having a great time and then the truth hit them they were ashamed with what they had done, they said to one another we are not doing right, this days a day of good news, but we are keeping silent, if we wait until morning light punishment will overtake us, now therefore, come, let us go and tell the kings household how guilty are we, how guilty are you, how guilty am I of the sinner silence, remember how we started, its not always the things that we do its often the things that we don't do, how guilty are we of the sin of silence these men had known nothing, known poverty and, and, and, and starvation, they were amazed at what they'd found, they'd became absorbed in what they had got and now they'd became ashamed of what they had done with it what was the sin that troubled these men they said we are keeping silent. +Back in the city there were thousand of people doomed, dying and all unnecessarily because here was plenty, here was sufficient for the whole city and possibly the greatest sin that you and I can be guilty of and that the church is generally guilty of, but you know when we talk about the church generally its, its so easy because that's general, you and I that are the church, not the denomination, not the organization, it you and I, possibly the greatest sin that we can be guilty of is the sin of silence, I'm not talking now about a rude, belligerent, discourteous, butting hole, button holding of people, I'm not talking about that, I don't see any place in gods word for that sort of attitude or that sort of approach but are we still silent, what about with those with whom we have the right, because we've created a relationship, because they know us and they've seen us and they've seen the experiences we've gone through and they've seen what god has done in our lives, what about with those people do we wait for others to do it, shifting the responsibility. +thinking in, in, in the context of our, of our mission, this town wide mission, well that's Billy's job, he's better at it than I am, but its not his job, its my job as much as its his and its your job as much as its mine, we do not well to keep silent these men they were troubled by their sin of silence, perhaps you and I should be troubled by our sin of silence because the extension of that, and here's the really great thing, as far as they were concerned, the ex the, the ongoing because they were troubled by their sin of silence and they did something about it, they were thrilled at the sight that they saw, as they see the city being delivered, and as they see starving men and women eating food perhaps for the first time in days or weeks, buying good wholesome food at a reasonable price, that was the sigh that thrilled them and you can imagine them, and I think they'd be entitled to a little bit of pride that I'm glad we told them, I'm glad we went back and shared the news apart from any thing we couldn't of coped with all ourselves, it would of been so wrong to of kept it, it would of been so wrong just to of eaten it ourselves, I'm glad we went back and told them. +Jesus said just before he was living his disciples, his followers, you and me, he said you shall receive power after the holy spirit has come upon you and you shall be witnesses unto me yes we witness by our life but there's a danger in making that a cop out, because one other requirement of a witness is that they talk, they've gotta say what they know, these four men were good witnesses, they went back and they told the city what they had found, and there's placed upon you and me that responsibility to go back and to tell what we've found, this is a day of good tidings, we do wrong to keep silent. + +what she's going to do. +Right. +Erm I'm here as a representative +of a small company from York, called and what we're doing is we're working on behalf of the Group, who compile and publish the English Dictionary. +And what I'm doing here today is, I'm recording this seminar as an instance of spoken English in the nineteen nineties. +Which will go towards making a corpus of information from which will draw the meaning and usage of words as it was in the nineteen nineties. +And this information will be linguistically analyzed, and then used to help compile the new dictionary which will be coming out in a few years. +So I thank you all very much for taking part in this, and I hope you have a happy seminar. +The people at the back may not be picked up on this so erm +He should be here any minute. +Right. +Good morning ladies and gentlemen. +Morning. +Sorry for coming in under the wire at er nine fourteen according to this clock. +Erm Hugh's asked me to open this morning's erm quality seminar. +Erm a a you're in for quite a good day. +I know that er the seminar which I attended sparked off quite a lot of lively er debate. +And er at the end of it I think we all felt we knew where we were going, and, and what the work that we'd put in over the last three years on the management procedures, which form the foundations of our quality system. +Er I think we came to realize what that work was all in aid of. +The management team had, I'll sit down if you don't mind, the management team has decided that we were going to go for quality because it was a matter of survival. +The industry which we are part of is in excuse me, is in er sorry about this I've dashed across here +I I'll read from Hugh's notes if you don't mind. +Erm I would like to remind you of my objectives quoted at the time in th in the quality manual. +Er to adopt best practices, er from the various offices, to help produce a better end product. +To delegate decision making down as far as possible. +And as far as our group's vision statement is concerned, to be acknowledged as the leading consultant in the rail er in the field of railway engineering. +To provide a professional service satisfact I'm sorry Dennis, would you just excuse me? +Can I hand over to you? +I I I do apologize. +Right. +Sorry about that. +Sorry I'm totally unprepared for this. +Erm To start at the top and unfortunately I'll reread Hughie's notes. +Perhaps wavering slightly. +Erm It's now thr nearly three years since management procedures were introduced as the first stage of our aspirations to become quality assured. +And I would like to you, remind you of my objectives quoted at that time and as are stated in the er manual. +That is firstly to adopt best practice from various offices, which hopefully would help us to provide a better end product. +And to delegate decision making er to as low a level as possible within the organization, compatible with safeguarding er the quality of the product that we provide to our clients. +The group as you are aware do have a vision statement, erm which has been published er and it was er developed a couple of years ago er great effort by the er management team. +And that vision statement is, to be acknowledged as the leading consultant in the railway i in the fields of railway engineering. +To provide a professional service satisfying our clients' needs and exceeding their expectations. +To be a well trained, dedicated and highly motivated team and to be committed totally to safety. +Now that vision has not changed. +That is still the group's er vision and stated objectives. +Erm as far as certification of er th the of a system is concerned er we are still comm committed to getting office certificated and as many of you may be aware the Swindon office has actually overtaken us on the B E S side erm and they are er, but hopefully we will achieve certification for the whole of our group erm prior to Swindon achieving certification for their whole group. +The subtle difference is tha that Swindon are going function by function and getting er five certificates. +Er ours is a slightly more difficult task, I would suggest a much more difficult task, in that we're trying to go for one certificate for the whole of the group. +Erm we believe, er if we are to demonstrate to our clients that we are as good or better than our competitives competitors, then we need certification. +And this is seen as a matter of survival. +Er fairly recently we were asked to tender for erm a new station at Rickmansworth for Crossrail and one of the prerequisites of that job, er which was a ten million pound project, er one of the prerequisites of that job, was that we should either be certificated or at least have a quality assurance erm system in place. +And because er we do have a quality assurance system in place although not certificated, er we were able to tender for that work. +Otherwise we would have not been able to tender. +Erm I think I'll leave this up till . +The basic message of quality, which Mike will er explain later on is, if you improve quality your costs decrease. +Because you are continually reducing the number of mistakes that you make and continually improv improving. +Erm and therefore you produce less wasted time, less remedial work er and a cheaper product. +Erm quality could be regarded as an empty word. +We need to bring it about, and it can only be done through teamwork. +That's the point that Hughie has set as one of his objectives for the next twelve months, is to get the group acting as one team, and not five or six separate teams. +Erm this is going to be extremely difficult because the British culture is one of every man for himself. +People tend not to work particularly well in teams in this country. +Erm but it's something that we need to work at. +And th the Japs actually score in this because they actually believe totally in teamwork. +Erm we need to change our culture. +Erm I think really I'll just leave it there cos I'm a bit struggling, struggling a little bit to remember quite what Hughie was saying. +If you appreciate I was actually thrown into the very deep end. +I think perhaps what's going to be said to you to the rest of the day erm will actually bring out the key points tha that Hughie was trying, trying to make. +One was that quality is here. +Quality is here to stay. +Quality is improvement. +And the other aspect is one of working as a team. +I think those were the two main messages that Hughie wished to get across today, and that we will concentrate on er during the rest of this seminar. +Erm th that the seminar is going to be lead by Mike . +Er Mike is from Associates and Mike has been helping the, the Q A team on a part time basis, and putting some sensible thought into how the group should go forward. +Erm but before Mike comes on I would just like er Norman to make a few comments er on his commitment to the group's er quality system. +Morning. +Er quality. +Definition of quality, right product at the right time, at the right price. +Now in P Way Design we have no problems with that, do we? +Or do we? +Erm we are the most profitable part of the S A U. +No problems about that. +Er we've no great problems with our technical results, and where they are we sort them out quite amicably with the area people. +We meet our main deadlines, which are normally the key deadline normally the S and C. +We meet it don't we? +So there's no problem. +Or is there? +Just looking at it in a bit more detail. +We're profitable but we normally don't compete with anyone else for getting the work. +So effectively we put in what is a fair price, and we get the job, and we do it normally within the price or within a slight overspend. +But where we have competed, accidentally in one case, deliberately in another, we've been undercut by our rivals and we haven't got the job. +Also a good pointer where we've been able to compare ourselves with civil engineering scaled fees, which was on the Overtown Bank Slip which was a job which went completely right, perfect no problems. +If we'd have put in a price based on A C scaled fees, we would have overspent by a hundred and fifty five percent. +So we thought. +So perhaps there's a, a little bit of work we can do in er in that sphere. +The right time. +How many times have I had someone come and say, can you sign this drawing please +it has to go, go to John tonight. +He's taking it for the meeting tomorrow. +Er how many times have we said, yeah, we can do this job but we'll, it needs the route improvement that we're doing for Arthur . +Or er , Arthur's in no hurry. +Well Arthur is a very reasonable and good friends with us. +But he notices, it builds up, he starts thinking to himself, they're always late. +It's no great problem but I'm not getting it on time. +Yet he begins to notice if we do it . +Think about our finished product. +I said you know the minor er faults and discrepancies, we er tidy up quite amicably with the area people normally. +But what we've got to bear in mind is that minor faults in our design can be very serious when translated to a job on the ground which . +Also the person who has helped us sort out maybe come to sensible engineering conclusion on the minor problem, but be saying to his chief, there was a problem with the York though I just managed to sort it out. +And that builds up. +Also what you've got to bear in mind is that inherent in any permanent way job is the capacity for something to go wrong. +And when something goes wrong there's recriminations and when there's recriminations, people will crawl for ways out. +That is the time for there to be nothing wrong with our drawings. +Drawings can be blamed when er there is actually nothing wrong and people are looking for an excuse blame from themselves. +So again for reasons like that, we have to maintain the confidence of the client. +And that today is what it's all about. +If the client is confident that he's getting the best deal from us, he will say, alright Birmingham ar are cheaper than York on a route improvement say, but I've had one of their cheap jobs before. +I'll, I'll stick with York and get value for money. +Erm drawing the client, is he has confidence in us say, well York have got their act together. +If the S if the S and if the S and T give them a, a fair crack of the whip. +There's no problems with York, they always given me a good service in the past. +And the er technical quality of our drawings the client if he has confidence will say, who are you trying to kid? +York drawings are good. +just just yarning You're trying to d divert attention erm erm disturb discrepancies. +So it's a question of us retaining, because to a certain extent we already have it, due to our customer past. +Retaining and renewing customer confidence. +And this is where B S five seven fiv five O certification or I S O Nine Thousand and one certification is important to us. +As Dennis has said from er Hughie's erm erm er statement, it is a requirement nowadays. +And it's valuable to us in, in three aspects. +First of all,certification is a bedrock of achievement, like having a degree, and you need a degree or an H N C or an O N C. +It's a statement in itself. +More importantly, it's er conveys to the client that we care about quality, that we've gone to the trouble to set up procedures which make our product as good as it possibly can be. +And thirdly, it has a very real er value in that, in going for er certification, we are actually putting checks and procedures in place which will help to ensure that what we do is the right price, is to the right time and is the right product. +So that's basically all +er just one after thought, Dennis mentioned teamwork, now we we've been together for a few years basically, but you might say, we work as a team, everyone gets on, everyone helps each other out. +We do within P Way Design, which is probably the best office I've ever worked in for that. +But what we've got to bear in mind is that we are a multi-functional group. +There's PICAS involved, works office involved, to a lesser extent B E S. +So that is really where a weakness is, it's in perceiving the needs of other parts, parts of the group. +That's something that we do have to work on and I can't emphasize it too strongly. +Okay. +Er I've said a lot +so I'll er leave you to Mike to take things further. +Thank you very very much Norman that's great. +Have you all got a programme in the folder? +So that you've got a vague idea of er what's going to befall you for the rest of today? +Okay? +We'd very much like you to feel free to ask any questions or comment er er on, on the er presentations during the course of the morning. +Er and this afternoon. +So don't hesitate to ask questions or, or discuss points which you feel erm have not be made very clearly or perhaps with which you don't even agree. +And let's try and resolve any issues which, which come up like that. +What we want to do this morning is erm tt talk a little bit to you about er the quality system and the I S O Nine Thousand procedures and er documented er systems, which have been developed so far within the whole group. +Er and we want to try and explain a little bit about tt how far we got in terms of achieving certification to I S O Nine Thousand. +But we then want to er explain w what this business of quality planning is all about. +Because we believe very very strongly wi that with an organization like yours, where each piece of work that you do is slightly different from other pieces of work, to have er a single m way, an approach to following the work er is, is really not, not the right er thing to do at all. +What we're looking for is a quality system and a set of procedures which are flexible enough to enable you to handle the slick jobs, which you haven't got a lot of fee income for. +And we want you to able to handle the, the complex jobs which require an awful lot of checking and a a a lot of er a lot er detail because the fee for the job is i is, is higher, and the job complexity is high. +Er and we we want to be able to have a mechanism within our I S O Nine Thousand system, which enables us to tackle different jobs of different, different complexity. +So that's er essentially this, this morning's er er programme, and the objectives which we want to try and er look at and achieve. +First and foremost though, we want to go back to basics and erm get our ideas absolutely straight as regards what quality is and what we're trying to achieve with I S O Nine Thousand. +There's a lot of misunderstanding about I S O Nine Thousand and I think that Norman's er analogy a few seconds ago is really, really rather good. +If you're asking a civil engineer to do some work for you i if that civil engineer has a degree does it automatically mean that the work's going to be perfect and wonderful? +No. +It doesn't does it? +Erm but there are certain civil engineering activities which e I'm thinking perhaps more about the bridge design side of things really, but there are certain activities which actually demand a certain level of qualification before you, you can actually sign, sign off drawings or a or agree to calculations or whatever. +Yes? +So the fact that you've got a degree or an H N C, or whatever, is actually a starting point. +It it's, it's er a, a level from which you y you er you progress and it's the same with I S O Nine Thousand or five seven five O. +It's really no guarantee of perfection, but it's, it's a sort of measure. +It is a level, a starting point and perhaps er we'll, we'll pursue this concept during the next er hour or so. +Let's, let's look at what quality is in basic terms. +We've got somebody from the Oxford English er dictionary compilation er arena, with us today and I, I, I'm almost tempted to ask Clare what wh what, what the definition of the word quality is actually . +But do you know what the, what a typical dictionary would give as the definition of quality? +We s it's a word we use quite a lot. +Wh wh what's, what's the definition of the word? +I told you they'd be quiet to start with. +Any ideas? +What do we mean when we use the word quality in normal day to day language? +We use the word often enough don't we? +Any ideas? +We've got all day, yes. +We started early. +Come on. +Perfect. +Excellent. +Above average. +Excellent. +Perfect. +Above average. +This is great, yes. +Any more ideas? +The Oxford Dictionary tempers the word excellence, or perfection, with erm a piece of phraseology, degree of. +Erm now what's the problem with this definition? +If you ask two people to go away and do the same job with a degree of excellence, are you to get the same result at the end of the day? +From the two different people? +It's not really a very clear definition is it? +From a work point of view, degree of excellence, it's, it's too vague. +So unfortunately, we're not able to manage quality if we use the dictionary definition of degree of excellence. +We need to have something better, or something different. +So this is the first problem where w we, we talk about the management of quality. +We have to change the definition of the word that we've grown up with over the years, otherwise we really can't manage the concept. +And this is where all our problems start. +It would have been nice actually if somebody had said, we're not going to have quality management, we're going to have uck management. +Or something like that, then we could have of, we could have redefined this, this new word and we wouldn't have had these awful confusions that we get. +But what we have to do is completely junk the definition of the word quality that we've grown up with over the years. +But we still use the wretched word. +So where do we go? +Well I think that a number of you might have seen that definition of quality. +Have you come across fitness for purpose? +One o one or two nods. +Thirteen blank looks. +Four co +one or two people completely disinterested. +That's not, that's fair average really isn't it I think . +Now this definition, fitness for purpose, erm fits in very nicely with I S O Nine Thousand and the requirements in, in the quality systems standard. +Er it's a little bit vague, is fitness for purpose, but it fits in with I S O Nine Thousand quite well because of the con of another little concept. +We're talking about concepts rather a lot this morning. +How do we find out what the purpose is? +If we're going to do er a job? +Right. +Where do get the specification from? +The client. +Yeah. +The hint behind this phrase is that it wouldn't be a bad idea to talk to the customer, talk to the client. +Erm I know this is a bit of shock horror to some of you. +I mean the client what do they know about anything? +Might as well go and talk to the doorpost as some of your clients, mightn't you? +But the theory is that if we, if we get to know what the, the purpose er o o of the job or, or the assignment is, er then we, we stand a slightly better chance of er getting a satisfied client at the end of the day. +However, it's still a vague definition and we often find it more useful to er tidy that definition up by introducing, conformance with requirements. +So having, having found what the er the purpose of the exercise is, what, what the job is, that we're trying to do, we need to beef up the detail a a and start to define requirements. +Now actually this is a very very good definition of the word quality. +It's a very good definition, but what are the potential problems with that definition? +Requirements have changed. +W we've got a problem I think with the word, word requirements, er in several senses and Al Alastair you're absolutely right on that. +Er it's a bit like shifting sands at times, isn't it ? +And you know very well that as soon as you start to launch yourself into the world of contracting by, by its very nature a contract a a automatically has loopholes in it , and the more you write in a contract the more loopholes you've got. +Therefore it's actually quite difficult to define really really accurately requirements. +Let me give you another, another example, if you're going to ask people to clean a railway carriage what do you mean by clean? +Do you mean inside or outside? +Say inside. +What do we mean by clean? +Well if you're going to ask some poor devil to clean er a carriage out isn't it fair to tell them what it is you mean by clean? +What result you want at the end of the day? +But what do we do in practice? +We just say here's a bucket. +Here's a mop. +You know, you know what clean is. +Get on with that. +Well that's not fair is it? +Really? +On the individual? +Because it means you can always criticize the individual, for either not having done the job well enough or for having not done it quite the way you thought it ought to be done. +I think that's a good example of where defining requirements is, is quite difficult. +And where defining requirements is difficult what tends to happen is that we don't bother. +Now this is where I think the Japanese score dramatically, they spend many many hours defining things which we say it's not worth the effort to define. +And if we put a little bit more effort into specifying requirements more tightly, then there'd be less argument at the end of the day as to whether we've done a good job or a bad job. +And I S O Nine Thousand and quality management is very much about trying because it is, it is hard work and we can't necessarily succeed i i in every situation. +But it's about trying to define requirements to the, to the best erm level and best degree. +And then setting out our way of operating to, to meet the specifications and requirements that we've set for ourselves. +And the fitness for purpose at the back of all this, indicates that it's not a bad idea to talk to the client. +Because if you define requirements in an ivory tower and you don't talk to the client, you're gonna produce something which isn't exactly what they necessarily want. +Now somebody very very er cleverly brought up the word client perception and in fact we h were given the definition earlier from Hughie's notes, of meeting and exceeding customer expectations. +But if we are going to meet expectations of clients then really we have to know exactly what it is the client needs and would be happy with. +And we have to specify internally to us what will meet the client needs and even just exceed the client needs. +And that is what we have to do within the time and organization constraints which Norman er correctly mentioned earlier . +And the whole business of managing the time, the resources and the, meeting the specifications is, is very much a matter which quality management addresses. +Now as we go on I'd just like to bring in another er thought for you is that view-graph correct? +There is no high or low quality. +Is that correct? +Geoff's giving us a really really positive nod over there and a lot of very very suspicious people round the table, Geoff who don't agree with you I think. +What do you think? +Do you agree? +I would think that in the terms that you want to define it in, that statement's true but I wouldn't necessarily agree with it. +Right. +Sorry to be awkward. +No. +No. +This, this is, that's, that's really great. +Thanks. +Thanks. +Thanks. +Thanks. +But you see what we've got here is this problem of the old definition of quality, still lurking there in the mind, quality is a degree of excellence, therefore you have high quality and low quality. +But if we, if we junk that definition, and then go to conformance with requirements we either conform with the requirements, as Geoff said, or we don't. +Now a very important issue in relation to conforming with requirements is that we can go over the top, we can go O T T as we say. +Now then, is going over the top and spending more money and producing an absolutely stupendous job, fabulous result, is that quality? +And the answer is, no, it isn't. +Because you haven't managed quality. +We've got an excellent result at the end of the day, but what's the point of having an excellent result if we're bankrupt next week? +And what does it tell us about our management? +W what we have to do with quality management, is introduce the horses for courses idea. +I mentioned earlier the quick, slick jobs. +We can't put all the bells and whistles, and all the, the checks and all the consultations and design reviews onto a job which gives us a fee income of er two thousand pounds. +We, we do have, you do have some small cheap jobs which have to be attended to very efficiently. +That's not to say that these won't be quality jobs. +It's just that the quality, the conformance with requirements, will be defined differently. +Okay? +So we don't have low quality jobs and high quality jobs, we have quality jobs with different standards attached to them. +And I think this is perhaps a slight confusion because very often, would you agree that we tend to use the quality and standard interchangeably? +High standard, high quality? +Low standard, low quality? +Yeah? +Whereas what we're trying to do with this new definition of quality now is get the idea of conformance with requirements. +Er over t to ourselves. +If the requirements are modest er modest requirements with modest standards, it's still a quality job if we achieve what we said we're going to do. +A and the, the key to the quality idea is that we manage job in order that we achieve the modest standards and satisfy the client at the end of the day accurately. +Now this, this is a difficult thing to, to take on board when we are used to idea of quality being degree of excellence. +Wouldn't you agree that in normal day to day language if we see a line of cars going down a road and one of them happens to be a Rolls Royce we would say, that's the quality car? +Yes? +Th that would be a a normal use of the word. +But in fact is a Rolls Royce a quality car if you want to go shopping and you want to be able to park it in small paces places and get round multistorey car parks? +You know all those scrapey marks on multistorey car parks? +They're all made by big cars. +So we have to accept that a car that might be fit for the purpose of shopping in, in, in a town where the parking places are small and the multistorey car parks are difficult to drive round, er er a quality car might be a Mini. +As long as it doesn't break down. +Is that, is that reasonable? +So quality can be a Mini, it can be a Rolls Royce. +It is not automatically always a Rolls Royce. +And we hopefully are going to manage our business in such a way that we can accept that a Mini is, is a quality result. +If that is what we specified we wanted in the first place. +Ca can you live with that? +I, I, I can see what you're trying to do I just think +Great. +distorting the definition. +Yes we are. +Yes we are. +the multistorey car park. +pay his parking ticket. +You'd get clamped. +Would you be able to afford the two hundred pounds to get it out of the parking ? +And +I understand exactly what you're saying it's just that erm +W we are +trying to change definition. +This is why I say it's a shame that we +usage. +it's a shame that we, we still carry on using the word quality. +Isn't it? +T to talk about quality management. +It would have been better if we'd got another word really. +Yeah. +So we are we are twisting the definition if you like a and, and er redefining the word which is most +Why ? +unfortunate. +Why didn't the word standard get put in the place of quality we can have standard assurance as opposed to quality assurance? +I think one of the reasons for that Geoff is that standard in itself is a slightly narrower word. +And it tends to be used in terms of the tolerances that we've got on our drawings the word quality which has been amplified into the arena where we may actually use it to describe the whole management of the operation, not the management of the, or the second part of the tolerance of the specification. +But i in, in theory there's no reason why, why we couldn't have done s sort of upset the word er standard I suppose rather than quality. +But anyway w w we're on board with the the general +thing which is important. +I'm sorry, I'm sorry I've been a bit steady getting there, but I think it's an important issue to tackle that, quality is horses for courses and we have to accept the fact that we're gonna get prestige type jobs and quick slick jobs, especially in the beginning of March every year. +Right. +Where did quality management come from? +Well, I think some of you may possibly have seen this view-graph before. +Have we a got a, a visitor? +Ha. +Messages. +What a surprise. +Right. +If we erm look at the origins of quality. +If we go back to the middle ages we had the situation of craftsmanship, where one individual was responsible for the design of what they were doing, the selection of the materials regarding what they were doing. +That individual was responsible for using hand skills and producing a result at the end of the day. +And people lived or died by their ability to, to produce a competent result at the end of the day. +And that was fairly literal if you think in terms of the village blacksmith making a sword. +Which was about the most complex technology in those days . +Then a few hundred years later we had the industrial revolution, what was the big step change from craftsmanship to the industrial revolution? +It was the technology wasn't it? +Yes . +Yes. +It was the introduction of technology . +What did that do for skill levels? +It produced a small number of highly skilled +people didn't it? +The tool makers and the people with their machinery and all the rest of it. +B but for most of erm really debunk . +There are a lot of people like that weren't there? +Who were brought in at a very level. +Now so erm craftsmanship in, in er in some respects was lost, although there are, are these points I have mentioned. +And what was found was that the new technology didn't produce a hundred percent wonderfulness. +To coin a phrase. +It didn't produce perfection, and so people introduced inspection. +They introduced inspection at the beginning of processes, they introduced inspection, part way through processes and they introduced inspection at the end of the th the total process. +Why do we have inspection part way through the process? +Why didn't we just check things in at the beginning and check things out at the end? +So you didn't waste your time if the product that was no good half way through. +Yeah. +It's it's to stop adding value to stuff that's already rubbish isn't it? +Stop wasting It's a matter of waste control. +That's right . +Erm and inspection got pretty sophisticated. +I've put quality control as something slightly separate from inspection. +Would anybody like to hazard a guess as to what we could possibly mean as the difference between these two words? +Well you have two different kinds of quality. +One . +One might . +Right. +So you're saying that an assessment of the inspection results is quality control? +Well you've gotta have a definition or a standard to inspect against really, I think Geoff, as well. +Otherwise you can't say it's good, bad or indifferent. +But I am actually trying to get at is a slight development of what you've said. +You, you, you we you were virtually there in terms of our standard understanding of these two words. +Quality control is inspection with a formal feedback to the pr process. +To the production process. +Okay? +Inspection you just, you just sit, sit there and weed things out. +The good from the bad. +Quality control actually formally takes the results back to the production process people, and tells them to, to adjust the process. +And then we have quality assurance. +This came along only in fact in the, in the late nineteen fifties early sixties. +Quality control had become terribly sophisticated during the er war time era When i a people realized it actually took longer to inspect a bullet than it did to manufacture it. +So what they did was introduce statistical techniques whereby not every bullet was inspected, a sample was inspected and great conclusions were drawn from very careful examination of a small number of, of items. +Now this is all very product orientated isn't it? +This, this quality management? +Well what happened was that in nine in the nineteen fifties the late nineteen fifties the Americans designed and, and built six Vanguard rockets to try and catch the Russians up. +And they failed. +Erm tt this is supposedly how they used to teach their kids how to count. +Erm what happened was they, they got three Vanguard rockets to the launch pad, lit the blue touch paper and they exploded in great clouds of flame and smoke six feet above the launch er area. +But they'd got three left. +So they dissected them all with a fine-tooth comb getting mixed metaphors. +They, they brought in a heap of people to disassemble these rockets and inspectors as er examined every, every part of the rockets. +They found nothing wrong. +They screwed these three rockets back together, the remaining ones. +Lit the blue touch paper and they all exploded in great clouds of flame and smoke six feet above the launch pad. +And they realized that all their efforts in controlling quality by inspection and so on had failed. +Now this particular exercise was, in fact, a major project, in management terms it was very similar to what you do. +You manage projects don't you? +Very small projects and some quite large ones. +And some lessons were learnt from that exercise which were enshrined in documents called Quality Systems Standards. +And the lessons learned were, how to manage projects better than we'd been managing projects before. +Typically when we have problems we say, ah, the materials weren't quite right. +Or we made a little fault with the design. +We didn't quite manage to construct the er item concerned adequately. +We never ever have the right resources. +We have people problems. +And typically what we do when things go wrong is, we scurry around and sort the materials out. +We allow ourselves a little bit more time to get the design right cos the reason we got it wrong in the first place was because it was a quick spend project and nobody er had time to do it properly. +Erm construction, well I don't want to cast too many nationalistic comments about but there is a strange habit of employing people who do not know what they're entirely supposed to be doing. +Erm resources is always a problem. +We get paid and promoted for rushing round and solving problems wh that we've created for ourselves. +Don't we? +There are other problems as well that we'd have to tackle. +Poor planning. +Erm I presume you're no different from other people? +Planning is a er it is a historical activity? +Isn't it? +It's about reporting what you did last week? +Planning, isn't it? +Yes. +Yes, I think we've got a culture block in this country with planning. +Erm jus just to make you feel a little bit more comfortable about it +er occasionally I go over to erm Hull and to run some training courses for . +They've got an international training centre there, which used to be a monastery. +It's a terrible place. +And erm yo you have these rooms the size of wardrobes you know? +Absolutely dreadful. +Anyway erm occasionally they will inflict upon the group a German person or a Swiss national. +And when we give the people syndicate or group exercises to do, the group with the Swiss person or German person in it is subjected to,now what is it we are supposed to be doing now? +We must write down the objectives of this exercise. +We must plan what we are going to do . +And the Dutch and the English put up with this for about fifteen seconds. +And then they take their jackets off and rush down the road at five thousand miles an hour and when you say to them, but you're going in the wrong direction. +They say, well that doesn't matter. +We're having a good time. +You know? +We're busy. +We're enjoying it. +I think we have a, we do, a, a slight culture block on planning. +Erm overbooking work. +We're squeezing quarts out of pint pots. +You've all got friends and relations in er other jobs and they've all been struggling for the last two or three years haven't they? +Under a lot of pressure trying to get quarts out of pint pots and I think y you you've suffered the same way. +Erm never mind the quality, feel the width. +You know, just get the stuff out of the gate. +Poor plant equipment is something which is, probably doesn't affect you quite directly. +Erm but it would affect the people you deal with. +Poor supervision. +I don't mean poor supervisors, I mean at every level of management. +We don't seem to get the supervision quite right, we either over do it or under do it. +Poor specification. +We're back to this business of quality is conformance with requirements. +How much effort do we put into defining the requirements? +Misunderstanding of contracts, deliberate or otherwise. +And it's a well known scientific fact that quality as a degree of excellence equals Rolls Royces. +Equals something that's incredibly expensive and it's a jolly good idea for other people. +If they can afford it. +Okay? +So these are the sorts of problems we get. +Now the American space scientists asked this stunning question. +They said why do we get poor materials? +Why do we get poor designs? +Why do we plan badly? +Why do we have poor supervision? +And that was the answer. +There are three possible answers. +Acts of God, junior staff and management. +Now I know some of you will find d er find it rather difficult to distinguish between those two. +But in all seriousness what percentage of our problems are caused by hail, rain, wind, snow, blow, fire and earthquake? +Small amount. +How small ? +Well what percentage would you say? +Guess. +Think that's reasonable? +It depends if it's the wrong sort of fog again. +It depends which country you're in as well. +But by and large +it's less, it's actually less than one percent. +Er what percentage of problems are caused by these terrible people? +Well shall I tell you what the directors of the construction company said? +They said ninety five +percent. +Then they said we do accept some responsibility for about four percent of problems. +And the reality is of course? +It's the other way . +It's the other way round. +Yes. +Management have to take responsibility for over ninety five percent of the problems we get, whether they're safety problems, quality problems or whatever problems. +So what do we do about this? +Well we er the obvious er immediate i idea would be to sack the management and promote the junior staff . +I think you're safe Margaret. +they didn't believe that. +Right. +So what do we do about this? +Cos management are causing ninety five percent of all our problems so what are we going to do about them? +Reeducate them? +Let's, we've got to look at what it is that management are making a mess of. +And we've gotta look at a training programme haven't we? +Again, if we go back to the example then it's not too personal to then is it? +Erm we have twenty people in, in a group and we go around and ask then how much post school technical and professional training they've had, we would come out with an average group of a total of about a hundred years of post school professional and technical training. +If we go round the same group and ask them how much management training they've had, we'd be lucky if we could dredge up fifty weeks. +Because i it is assumed management is learned by picking up the bad habits of your predecessor and their predecessors for the last five hundred years. +There's not very much really formal management train in fact as an employer, is, is really rather good compared with most people we come across. +In the outside world. +And in, in fact in this area. +We have some wry wry smiles from some of the older people er in the group here because they er didn't get much when they were at the formative stages of their careers. +Right. +What I've done now is taken you through to the point where, we're asking ourselves what is it that management make a mess of? +And what can we train management in to be better? +Well the answer is the index of I S O Nine Thousand and One. +Because what I S O Nine Thousand and One is is the result of the investigation that the American space scientists did in nineteen fifty nine, to find out what areas management are weak in. +And they identified in nineteen fifty nine eighteen areas of management activity that management consistently made a mess of. +And in fact it's grown to twenty areas in the intervening thirty odd years, so that's not bad emp empire building really is it?thought it might have been one hundred and forty eight by now but it's not. +But it's grown to twenty areas. +Now I S O Nine Thousand and One is nothing more, nothing less, than a list of things that management should address a little more carefully. +There's nothing revolutionary in I S O Nine Thousand and One. +There aren't any bolts out of the blue. +There aren't any stunning new ideas, or concepts. +It's all really rather boring actually. +But what it tells us is that in these twenty areas, management should try and think about what it is they can do to prevent problems. +With the best will in the world we're not going to be perfect first time round, so we've got to have detection interaction mechanisms. +But in I S O Nine Thousand and One there is also a thread of quality improvement, in each of the areas which we're supposed to address. +And the quality improvement is once we have found that we've got a problem, how do we stop it recurring? +How do we stop the same type of problem recurring? +There's a learning curve. +The theory is we do not invent the wheel every day. +Right. +Now I want to hand you over to, to Dennis hop hopefully not too belatedly Dennis? +And erm what I'd like is for Dennis is to explain a little about how far we've actually got with the C E D G approach to the introduction of I S O Nine Thousand. +So having introduced the idea that I S O Nine Thousand is about improving our management competence, it's not about improving our technical competence, we are technically very good. +It's the management that fails us. +Er I'd like to r er throw it over to Dennis with the er stage there, so that er we explain how far we got in addressing these management shortcomings issues. +Alright Dennis? +Right. +Thank you very much, Mike. +Quality in management systems. +Well Mike has explained that quality isn't quality. +Erm and management doesn't. +Er so you can be even more confused with quality management system. +Erm the next session is rather hard work for you cos it's very much sort of listening and absorbing a hell of a lot of facts, but I trust you will bear with me. +And it does get easier towards lunchtime when we allow you to play. +Erm the management team is committed to the group's quality system. +And the management team expect all staff to be equally committed. +The system incorporates procedures which are designed to assist staff in carrying out their work in a planned, consistent and economic manner. +And procedures are intended to foster and not inhibit the exercising of professional engineering judgement and creative problem solving. +That's what Mike has just said. +The group has got two aims, one is certification of the system to I S O Nine Thousand and One, and the second very important one is the continual improvement of the system as er to make a change in working practices, and business organizations and reorganizations. +Like all things these days we have a quality policy statement. +Erm this is bound up in the group's quality system manual, which will be distributed to you on Monday. +Er and much of what I'm going to say today in the next twenty minutes i it's bound in here, so there's no need to take notes. +It's, it's, it's there to be read and to be worked to. +The group's policy is produce work of a quality commensurate with the requirements of the job. +Rolls Royce versus the Mini scenario. +Quality, completion on time and safety are regarded as indivisib indivisible and quality is of course of paramount importance in our railway environment. +So how do we achieve quality? +You may disagree with it, but this is the management team's stated view of achieving quality. +We need to have an organization structure with defined individual responsibilities. +We have established procedures for carrying out the work. +We agree clear remits with the clients. +We ensure that those remits are fully understood by the project team before work starts. +We insist the conceptual design, and I'm underlining conceptual design, is the responsibility of the function and section engineers, who have bottom line responsibility for each project. +We allocate specified assigned tasks to staff, with the necessary skills and abilities to undertake those tasks. +And this experience can be gained either by formal education and or on the job training. +If you haven't got the skill you should not be asked to undertake that task until you are trained or supervised. +We encourage good internal and external communications. +And as we brought out first thing this morning, communication within the group, that is across the functions, and also in some cases within the functions, is poor. +We act as separate cells, we need to act as a team. +We insist that all work leaving the office is suitably checked, and I underline the word suitably checked. +The degree of checking is determined by the section engineer responsible for the project. +We recognize that every member of the group can contribute to the development and improvement and success of the group, and we encourage every member to make their contribution to the group's success. +Now there's nothing new, revolutionary, exciting in that. +That is all good, sound common sense and hopefully that is what we are currently practising. +If we just first look at the organization that we have, or perhaps more correctly will have following consultation, erm I think you will agree with me that the, the roles and responsibilities of those people are fairly well defined. +The group engineer, function heads and project team and section engineers. +If we just quickly look at the role of the project coordinator. +The man in the middle there. +Or person in the middle. +Sorry. +All work within the group is assigned as projects, and for each project a project coordinator is appointed. +Project coordinator will almost invariably be a section engineer. +However, when the complexity of the job demands it, he will be a function engineer. +In addition to their other responsibilities, the project coordinator is responsible for a number activities. +He is responsible for developing and agreeing the total C E D G remit with the client. +Not the function remit, the total remit. +. He is also the formal point of contact between the group and the client and as such he is required to coordinate the group's, group's activities on a giv given project. +He will, in cooperation with section engineers and team quantity surveyors, develop project quality plans, and we'll explain those later today, and he will also sign off the project quality plan and the client's appointment contract. +Additionally he will sign off client reports. +And the client reports are a single report covering all the functions on a specified project. +The section engineer, who can also be a project coordinator,a as I've explained, is responsible for directing the group of project engineers and for overviewing all aspects of the project within his section, to ensure that they are technically adequate t to ensure they are technically adequate, have quality and we are providing safe service to the client. +He is also responsible for appointing the project team within his own section. +And also responsible for preparing the project quality plan for his section. +The project engineer is responsible for the day to day development of the project and he will undertake the requirements of a project quality plan to meet all the necessary current standards. +And the project engineer will be assisted by resident engineers, designers, detailers, quantity surveyors and not forgetting, of course, clerical support. +We tend to forget the clerks. +And that really is the fundamental principles behind the management procedures and the group's quality system. +It's what we've been working at for the last three years. +The set up I've described there aligns itself with the manner in which most consultants work. +In essence, the section engineer is equivalent to an associate, and takes bottom line responsibility for all his projects. +That is completion on time, to spec and within the fee-bid. +Let's look at the group's procedures with emphasis on the quality system. +Our quality system, like any other, has two interrelated aspects. +They are our clients needs and expectations and our own needs and expectation and i interests. +As a service organization, we must continually meet the needs and expectations of our clients and in the most economic way. +To meet these aspirations we must make the best use of our human, technological, material and financial resources and this must be done within the framework of a well planned and a well managed system. +Our clients also need the assurance and confidence that we have the ability to provide a service which consistently meets their requirements. +Therefore it is necessary to maintain documentary evidence that our system not only exists, but is being operated as intended. +And the above factors form the basis of our quality system. +Very much a regurgitation of what Mike said this morning. +If we just look at that system and the hierarchy of documentation that forms the system, hopefully things will start to gel with you with regard to the management procedures. +At the top we have I S O Nine Thousand and One. +Erm beneath I S O Nine Thousand and One we have the group's quality manual. +And the quality manual are the white sheets contained within this red folder. +Beneath the quality manual we have quality systems and qual sorry. +Sorry. +Quality system procedures which also include project quality plans. +And beneath those we have the much loved management procedures. +This in essence is the key for the group's system. +If we look at management er procedures Could ask the question but I'm, the mo more cynical of you will er not answer in the right way, what are management procedures? +They aim to collect together the best practices from within the group. +Those that have been found to work. +And then to communicate these to all of our staff. +They're quite simply a collection of directives. +Or instructions which advise the staff how a particular project, how a particular task is undertaken with guidance on why we do it. +Who is responsible for the task, and who makes the decisions. +Which members of the organization need to be involved in that task, and which don't. +And they also contain the standard pr proforma used within the group. +They're live documents which are subject to revision as the organization changes and as we improve. +And they are there to be worked to until such time as we find a better way of doing it. +They provide uniformity across the group. +They ensure that best practice is adopted. +They cut out Spanish practice and job creation which is rife, or has been rife, within some quarters of the group. +In essence they are the group's instruction manual, or practice notes as our architectural mem er colleagues prefer to call them. +Quite simply they are documented work statements for specific activities which rationalize and standardize the current working practice throughout the group. +They can be considered under three headings. +There are those which address the acquirement the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One I S O Nine Thousand ? +I S O Nine Thousand and One through project quality plans. +Those which fulfil the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One erm through quality system procedures. +And those which have absolutely no affect on the quality of the service that we provide to our client, but they form Board requirements, legal and other requirements, admin arrangements, local instructions and policy. +That is, is drawn to scale. +Seventy five percent of what is contained within the blue manual, has nothing to do with the quality of the service that we provide to our clients. +What we've attempted to do is to put all of our instructions into one manual, so that we don't view quality as an add-on or something extra. +It is all part of living and breathing, doing things that come naturally. +Does that help? +Begin to help? +If we then look at the quality manual, which is the, the white document, contained within here. +This is very much an overview document and describes the way in which the group conducts its business. +It is the document which can be viewed by our existing and prospective clients to enable them to gain an insight into our quality system. +It defines how our quality system relates to us and our activities. +And it describes how the requirements of I S O Nine Thousand and One are satisfied within the group. +And it forms a reference document to the full scope of a quality system. +And it is the document which the quality auditors will initially use to check that the quality system exists, is operating and is fit for the purpose. +Now because the quality manual is very much an overview document, we need to introduce more detailed documents which control the day to day operation of the quality system. +And these are called the quality system procedures. +And again they're bound in here. +There are seven quality system procedures. +In essence these are stand-alone management procedures except they are printed on pink paper. +I'm not numerically dys dyslexic by the way, I put them in that order for, for a reason . +We have quality system procedure number one, which is the quality reference summary. +This will be used almost exclusively by quality auditors at the start of the audit trail and provide a simple matrix. +Er and this is an extract from, from it, it provides a simple erm matrix which identifies the clause in I S O Nine Thousand and One, and then identifies which management procedure or quality system procedure er relates to that particular clause in I I S O Nine Thousand and One. +This starts to unravel the blue book, hopefully, and identifies those which refer to the quality,whi which are quality procedures, and those which are the other procedures. +Q S P Six er gives generic job descriptions and sets down broad responsibility statements relating to quality and safety. +Q S P Seven, project quality plans, we are going to be talking about in great detail after the after coffee, and also through your playtime at lunchtime. +You have to remember that all work assigned within the group is organized as projects and as a service organization no two of our projects are identical. +Consequently those sections of I S O Nine Thousand and One which deal with project specific act activities, are addressed through project quality plans. +Quality system procedures two to five, provide the mechanism by which our quality system is constantly reviewed, updated and improved. +And this afternoon Mike is going to be talking about nonconforming product control, corrective actions and internal quality audits. +Erm and this is really the mechanism by which you can ensure the continuous or continual improvement of the quality system. +And it echoes the group's quality statement that recognizes that all staff have a voice, and this voice should be heard. +These procedures will give you the opportunity of getting your voice heard. +Quality system procedure two, talks about how the management team pick up suggestions made by yourselves through Q S P Three, and set about making decisions for improvement of the group's quality system, the service that we provide to our clients. +And that really is group's quality system. +And hopefully I've ou I've hopefully you've found nothing too painful in what I've outlined there. +And hopefully I've shown you the key that unravels some of the mystery of the blue book. +The blue book is really our instruction manual, and the red book unlocks that to help us identify those procedures which affect the quality of service that we provide to our clients. +Erm now, the other thing I mentioned at the beginning was certification of the system. +And I recognize there are a few people here, here who are not P Way people. +Erm Works, Q S, Business Manager, B E S have been through the same process as you're going through today. +Erm and you are currently here erm and your teach-ins. +Tomorrow the other half of the P Way section will be having their teach-ins and on Monday the intention is that quality system procedures, quality plans etcetera, will be introduced within the P Way office. +Currently working in the works office, Q S and the business managers and B E S. +And in the middle of June the bridge office will be going through the same exercise and June the nineteenth, I think, it's the Monday everyone within the group will be working to the group's quality systems. +And we're shortly to appoint some erm consultant assessor who will assess our system, and we will run our, have our system in place for a period of about four months. +Er and I'm quite sure there'll be quite a bit of change to many of our procedures. +There are currently procedures which are absent, which will need to be introduced. +And the intention is that by the end of this year our system will be certified to I S O Nine Thousand and One. +Okay? +And that +I'd just like to say one thing Dennis. +What's the difference between B S five seven five O and I S O Nine Thousand? +I S O Nine Thousand is an internationally . +Yeah.. +Yes. +There isn't any difference. +It's the same document. +It's just that erm the I S O version, as you quite rightly say, is sort of recognized and used in other countries. +And the fact that it's got a B S label means that it's the, the indigenous one to the U K really. +But the content of I S O Nine Thousand and B S five seven five O are the same. +the same. +We're using I S O Nine Thousand as a result of Board policy . +Okay. +Coffee time. +Yes. +We're, we're currently running about fifteen minutes late . +Lun lunch time is fixed for twelve so we must get . +Did you? +Is? +Yeah. +tape running? +I should perhaps apologize on behalf of the hotel for the temperature in the room this morning er I stayed here last night and woke up to find that not only was there no heat in the radiators, but there was no heat in the hot water. +There wasn't any hot water. +They had a major boiler breakdown last night. +Two boilers failed. +Er so, so there's a distinct lack of central heating. +Even more remarkable lack of hot water so +if you can bear with us on that I can see we've got some out outdoor fiends who are quite happy to be sitting here without any jackets on but other people doing, doing the opposite. +for Dennis. +window to cool it down? +Yes. +Erm something we did omit, which we should not have done, earlier was to mention the fire escape scenario and that is that if you go out of this door, just the coffee table there's a large marked fire exit. +So if we hear any screeching noises or bells, which er don't turn off after a very very short period of time, we are to er make our way in an orderly fashion to the er base of the staircase of the fire escape, following the fire escape er signs. +Something we should have mentioned earlier no doubt about that. +But er I think from a comfort point of view er if you do feel the need to go to the toilet, please don't er think that you've got to put your hand up and ask. +If, if, if, if you do that you'll have everybody wanting to go. +Right. +Are we ready +to reconvene? +We had a very very quick introduction to the idea of I S O Nine Thousand at the end of my little session. +I S O Nine Thousand is nothing more, nothing less than a list of management activities that need more attention. +More careful attention from the average management group. +Dennis explained how the C E D G documented quality system is structured. +And I now want to introduce the idea of quality planning. +And then in a few minutes Dennis is going to join with me in explaining to you how we are going to make the quality planning procedure work for you. +We've already decided that a typical organization will in fact use the same procedures and work instructions on all its work, because an, a typical organization manufactures ice-creams. +Or it makes nuts and bolts. +And they do the same thing day in day out. +And the way in which a hierarchy of documentation is structured in such an organization, is by having policy from which procedures are developed, from which working structures cascade. +Now, it is possible to force-fit this type of approach into your kind of work. +But it's not very practical and it's not very sensible. +Because you're going to need different procedures on different projects, and you're going to need different degrees of checking, and different degrees of emphasis on the different types of project that you get. +The prestige project, the complex project or the quick, slick project. +In terms of your organization, I think we've got something and it won't surprise you, a little bit more complicated than the normal Trebor Mint factory, or whatever. +And what we have are as follows, one, a manual, which Dennis mentioned in the red folder. +Core quality procedures which we've separated out into Q S Ps One to Seven. +The job descriptions, the nonconformance control, the management review. +How to organize a quality plan. +We've got the admin instructions, how to go and claim your expenses. +How to hire a car. +We've got various procedures within the group management procedures. +Now, what we have to do is organize for ourselves a mechanism whereby, for any particular project, we use the procedures that are necessary for that project. +We do not invoke the use of every single management procedure and every single quality procedure on all projects. +Otherwise we're back to that for force-fit trian triangular approach, as evidenced on the previous view-graph. +Now the key to explaining to people doing any particular project, are which procedures is the quality plan. +So for any particular project we want a quality plan which will tell us what the client brief is, tell us which procedures we're going to use from the suite of procedures available within C E D G, and following the dictates of the quality plan which will be individual for each individual project, we get an output. +There is a procedure on quality planning and that's what Dennis is going to er be talking about very very shortly, and this will explain how we generate an individual quality plan. +But I want to, I want you to get the idea clear in your minds about what a quality plan is. +So, first and foremost, it's the mechanism which selects the appropriate procedures from within the C E G, E, C E D G documentation to help you er run a project in a managed way. +Now, why do we have quality plans? +Well they achieve quite a lot. +They introduce standards for project management. +A quality plan will include objectives for the project which are agreed with the client. +Remember when we defined quality earlier, we talked about fitness for purpose? +And that involved talking to the client to find out what it was they wanted? +What their expectations were? +Perhaps even perceptions? +A quality plan will explain the scale and er numbers of checks that are involved. +The I S O Nine Thousand document actually allows quite a lot of self-checking. +It's very + +Hello. +Yes sir. +Well what hat can I do for you tonight? +Er I feel a bit plagued my mouth ul ulcers for about three weeks now. +Three weeks? +Aye. +That's a . +nonstop. +When one goes away I get another. +Another one comes. +I've got about five just now. +Let me look at them. +Look inside. +I've got them in my . +Aye. +Your gums are all inflamed as well. +Aye. +Put your tongue back out for a wee look. +That side of your mouth's all infected as well. +that's a, that's a form of thrush. +See I've been coming for years with mouth ulcers. +You know +mhm. +but don't get me wrong after a while I just gave up and I was getting them in bouts and I was getting through the Bonjela and the +Oh no. +No. +They're not +I'd done a round but and really this time it's not going away you know? +Mhm. +And I don't know +Tt. +There's a special place in Glasgow where you go to see the specialist who looks after folk +Mm. +with mouth ul ulcers like yourself. +Where they keep coming back like that. +Aye. +If, if +if you could maybe refer me I would be happy with that. +Mhm. +Sure. +I will do that. +I'll get that organized. +I thought I'd a had a, I thought I'd had a problem but I, I injured myself as well. +And er that's why I didn't cancel appointment with you +Yeah. +you know? +Right. +I've got a medical coming up, a work's medical coming up in er +Mhm. +for a job and I'm just, that would be another +reason I had to get it +Wanted to get it sorted out. +Er you're Robert that's right? +Mm. +You're Robert. +Sorry I've forgotten your address Robert. +Right. +Right. +Now what other injury have you done yourself? +I was carrying wall units and I'd taken fourteen wall units one after another up two flights of stairs. +And I think I had about, I don't what I've done really but I just, the following day I felt it in my, my groin, the left side of my groin down my leg and up my stomach. +And I went to my mate this morning who's a boxer and he said that it's now maybe, maybe a groin strain +Mm. +or a hernia +or something. +Let's have a wee look at you. +No. +But I've +. +Sounds as if you've a strain, the way you're walking you know the +Aye. +I'm not right sure I, I've been what it was you know? +Because I just sort of went to work the following day and I worked away as normal. +That's right. +So maybe I'm maybe about fourteen stone I'm at . +. Any +Where does it start Robert? +Well it's actually on my left, my left testicle and under underneath +Mm. +d down my leg and, and up you know. +And +Aye. +and about here? +Aye. +Yes. +You have a strained just through there. +That big muscle. +This big muscle here ? +Mm. +And at the same bit the muscle up here +Aye. +and it joins with + +Ah, here he is. +this morning?? +The quicker these kids get back to school. +Is it them that's causing it? +Oh. +It's always the same. +Always the same. +Every +I'm just off for my my line Doctor. +? +Aye. +Apart from that I feel great. +I've stopped smoking now for four month. +Four months? +Very good. +The very first spending stacks of money now,? +I've not got any now. +Cos when you smoke you kept your money for your fags, but if you don't smoke you don't need to keep it. +I thought you'd have been buying an oil well or something like that . +I know, I didn't realize,. +My two brothers are off on holiday now for ten days . +Aye. +There's a lot of folk given up, just in the past year. +It's terrible. +I mean that that addicted to it, I was like a heroin addict, you know? +Oh aye. +Oh aye, I . +and all these years they spend . +You +I know. +you telling me to stop smoking for +That's right. +That's right. +You see, they tell you to stop smoking +The day it happened the day you got this +Aye. +heart attack,that was it. +Well what really set my mind was when I lost my sister and my brother. +Mm. +Cathy and Hughie like, in two +Yeah. +months smoking. +That's right. +That's right. +I mean we we've got a friend and she used to smoke sixty a day, and she never +even talked about stopping, till her pal, into hospital, a dif a bypass operation. +And that was it. +Enough. +Tt! +That was it. +No chance. +I've been off for three or four time before for long a few years and +Aye. +Och aye. +I know but +back to it. +They go back to it, this is the thing. +And it frightens me seeing the youngsters coming out carrying . +That's right. +And , you know?. +A couple of youngsters yesterday, seven year old, eight year olds at the very most, they have one of these gas lighters, up round the back of the . +It's so that nobody could see them. +I know, you can't, you can't . +can't tell them. +tell mine. +Right oh. + +Good morning. +Er, it's an insurance . +. +Updated for yesterday. +twelfth +Can you give us a prescription for these? +Just some more of those? +Aye, sure. +That's that covered. +That. +Twenty second +Twenty sixth I've got an interview. +Are these helping? +Aye. +Good. +Aye,I think I've a wee touch of the flu. +You must be the only one +Is it back? +Oh aye. +Aye? +Oh, it's never been away. +Oh, I feel terrible this morning. +Never been away, it's been the last month +Oh I never caught it, right enough, but I feel as if I've caught it now. +Well let's see if we can get things quietened down for your life. +Have it easy. +In the past month in here, well, it's been like that every day. +Been like that every day, there's never been a, a quiet day. +There we are Charlie, that'll keep that right for you. +Okay, thanks. +Okay, +right. +Cheerio now. +Cheerio. + +. +And we're +Performing this lovely task for you in Cumbernauld in bonny Scotland. +It's now quarter past nine. +Your old man here has brought me all the way up here for a complete and utter waste of time +. +and has only offered to buy me one beer so far. +Two. +Two. +Right. +Well let's see if that comes over. +That's if I can get this going. +Yeah. +Right the idea of this little chat this briefing before we go out and do the er driving assessments next week is just to sort of give you an idea and a and a bit of an inroad into what we're looking at and what we'll be doing next week. +Now er who did it last year amongst you? +I know Dougie did. +Two, three. +. +Must have been the year before you did it then . +. +Yeah. +Right. +So I mean obviously er if you've done it before And have y have you done one before at all? +I don't know.. +My dad's . +Did you? +Yeah. +. +There was one just prior to that. +I think er +. +. +That's quite a coincidence. +Were they? +Mm. +Well th the thing is those of you who did it last year with me, it'll follow much the same sort of format, so Erm but we didn't do a little talk before. +Now that idea was to get everybody together and erm because there have been certain members of the staff which haven't been looked at for a period of time they've escaped the net as it were in the last couple of times and it seems that we've had the same guys for the last three years and some have erm +. +Well I suppose that's it you see. +When you when you come up here and do the driving you find that erm because people are are just not available at the time and erm y I'm here just for a and Stan only here for a a limited period, and er you're sort of trying they're downstairs they're trying to get people off the trucks when they come in or whatever the case may be to go out and do an assessment run, and it's not always possible. +Now this time we're here for four weeks so it would probably be that they want to get everybody through this time without anybody escaping the net. +And the the policy now with is that this will ta now take place I know that there's been somebody here for the last three years, but this will now take place every two years. +So er er whether or not it'll be the same faces c l as come up and do it er But it it shouldn't make that much difference. +It will follow the same format. +But of course it is nice to come back to the same places over and over again, sort of er see friendly faces. +. And er it does make a bit of continuity. +. +There's a few scowls and grimaces. +. Right, so the company that we work for is and they are one of the a number of companies which are operating in the fleet driver training market, and erm they we pren presently have the contract with for this f f course of defensive driver training. +Now they call it defensive driver training and er what we're really talking about is safe driving, nothing more and nothing less. +And er if you have a defensive driving technique then of course you'll be driving safely. +Would you not agree with that? +So first of all then, what will we be doing? +Now when we go out on the road we would like to go through a vehicle check with you. +Erm now we didn't er it's not always possible to do that. +The last year wasn't because the way things were running and the way drivers were being brought in. +But where possible we would do a t er a vehicle check. +And now this time we would like to do a vehicle check with you when we before we go out. +Erm I think it it is beneficial mainly in the sense that erm if nothing more than running round the vehicle to make sure there are no marks and bangs and scratches on it which you're going to inherit from the the previous run that it had er with a different driver perhaps . +. +Yeah but she's a . +? +. +Aye. +. +I'm f frightened of ben move down in case all the wiring comes off.. +. +Oh yeah, that's right. +We were looking at that last night. +So you would just take that round and just mark on anything +that's gotta be . +And that's just a pre-vehicle check before you go out is it? +Well +Yeah. +. +Right. +And n normally I suppose the company have a policy in relation to checking oil, water and all the necessary bits and pieces before you go out in the morning. +Is that right? +. +Is that done once a day or each driver? +Each driver . +Each driver. +So the fact that the vehicle has been out on shall we a mor a morning delivery and the the back shift man comes in and has a look at it, he would then have to do it all again. +Right so we we just we would like to do that bef before we go out. +Now the time which erm i is scheduled for around about half a day each. +Now obviously commercial requirements might mean that that is modified to some extent. +But erm I think last year we w Was it about three hours they went, last year? +Do you remember? +About three hours wasn't it Dougie? +No it was about two. +Just about two. +Two. +Er +Two hours . +Yeah. +It d it did depend on the t run that we had . +. +Yeah. +But erm say this yeah it'll probably follow the same format. +And now when we first start off er I know what it's like. +It's not very nice when you're driving the vehicle and er I know you're all experienced drivers and then you get somebody sitting there alongside you starting to look at you do, and I I you could've been driving all your life but you still feel a bit edgy and a bit tense. +Is that not so? +When someone's looking at you . +. +Yeah. +So what we want to do is erm for everybody to drive naturally. +You know, not put anything special on because either myself or Stan is sitting alongside you. +And er you won't drive naturally for two reasons I suppose. +One is that you want to make sure that erm you do everything right. +Well that is good. +I mean if you're going to sort of er er dr vary your driving a little bit to put in the techniques that you think should be put over, that's good. +However sometimes you can fall into the pitfall of doing things erm because you think that we want to see that. +And very often we don't. +You'd very often be better off driving as you normally drive. +Do you follow what I mean? +Mhm. +Now the other reason why of course you won't perhaps erm drive naturally is because of this little bit of tension at the fact that who's this person sitting here looking at what I'm doing? and it it's putting me off. +And that does do that. +So to start with what we're doing is just having a little assessment, seeing what sort of driving erm techniques that you have. +And also we can have a little chat, providing it doesn't upset any concentration, just to break the ice and settle in and er relax you and to drive normally. +And er I say, we're we're not here to er nitpick, picking up every little fault that a driver does going along the road. +Cos it doesn't matter who you are or what you are, reverse the roles, everybody makes mistakes when you're driving. +So we're not looking for little every little error that a person makes. +It's not like a ministry test or anything like that as some of you are are well aware. +You're just looking to see if there are any aspects of a person's drive where, you know, one or two habits might have crept in which could possibly encroach upon safety margins to some extent. +Or you may sort of erm people who you do the same thing over and over again, the same sort of job, would you not agree a little bit of complacency can set in and erm things don't perhaps come over quite as they should? +And so we will try and reestablish and reaffirm the main basic principles to make sure that you maintain proper safety margins and er good reaction time, room to manoeuvre, as we're going through. +So that that's all it is. +There's nothing t to anybody to get really uptight about. +And then we'll carry on er having had a stop and a little chat about different things, we then carry on, and if there are sort of some areas in the drive which we think might sort of erm Come in chaps. +Morning. +Morning . +. +. +. +. +much. +Thank you very much. +I've only just been talking about what we're going to do. +Stan at the back, Mick , are the company and I think we met last year didn't we? +I think so. +Yeah. +I think s Oh I can't remember. +Some faces you c +. +No. +Anyway. +. +I missed it. +Another one escaped the net last year. +. +So I was just saying that this year it would be hopefully everybody will go through it. +And it will be company policy from now on that it'll be every two years. +Alright? +The new policy has been formulated. +And I'm just going through what we're going to be doing whe on the training day itself, or the assessment day. +First of all as I said, we'd like to go through a vehicle check before we go out. +Then we'll go out on the road. +The first little bit of time is spent just to sort of take it easy, take our time, get to know another, and for us to assess the drive. +And then we can pull in or have a stop, probably at the delivery if it's a delivery involved, we can have a little chat about any areas which we can discuss. +And then a bit of a roundabout route coming back, trying to get a variety of road, and any areas of the drive which we can look at, we will, discuss amongst ourselves, practise one or two things, maybe one or two little techniques. +And then when we come in, the assessment form is written out and erm er there's a marking sheet which I'll I'll sh sh show you before we go out on the road. +There's marking sheet, and on the back comments about what we've done and er the standard which you you drive at. +Now both Stan and I have the same policy that erm we will write out It takes about ten minutes, or maybe a little bit longer with me, cos I'm not as clever as Stan. +It takes a little bit longer for me, but erm we show you then what's on the sheet, so you know what is there. +Alright? +And then if there's any areas which you want to discuss with us then by all means we can. +Right. +Any questions about what we're gonna do on the day then? +That's just a rough precis about what we're gonna do. +Right what we've got t like to sort of talk about now is just one or two aspects ab about defensive driving techniques. +Why we do it and and what it's all about. +Erm I think th as far as lorry drivers are concerned Stan and I both go around various companies and you are dealing with car drivers, van drivers, large goods vehicle drivers such as yourself, and er it's fair to say that erm there are different levels of ability in each case. +But normally you find that erm both Stan and I would consider the large goods vehicles drivers as being the professionals, because you are driving all the time. +Would you not agree that your job is driving? +Really not much else is it? +. +Er it is driving. +Now you get the car drivers they are not really drivers. +They are given a company car to get from A to B, and their main work starts when they get there isn't it? +And therefore for for various reasons their interest in driving, in most cases, not all, cos I mean some of them are very good, but in most cases their interest in driving i is is limited to what they're gonna do in their time off. +Not an interest in perhaps, bit more depth of thought i in surviving while they're driving. +Whereas people such as yourselves er have got two things in mind. +You're gonna be on the road, the number of miles you do is obviously going to put you at risk, more than somebody who does a third of your miles. +Would you not agree to that? +It's not relative, because anybody who does er more er er a great number of miles, then you would i i imagine that because they do this amount of miles that their ability would be overall better because of the experience they gain by doing to extra miles. +But i we're all in a in a risk business. +And what we say is, and what we're trying to put over, I'm su I'm sure you're fully aware of yourselves,is that it's no good going around driving your drives thinking that it's never going to happen to you. +Do you think that's fair comment? +Now er with the vehicles on the road today more and more accidents And certainly motorways, and bearing in mind I would imagine, er would it be true to say that the majority of mo driving is done on motorways and dual carriageways? +When you get +. +Mm. +So when you get accidents on motorways they're normally pretty horrendous aren't they? +It's not just one vehicle involved. +And I we just feel that cannot go along thinking it's never gonna happen to you. +You we should do something about it. +And as a company, whatever other political ideals you have about them , but as a company they are very safety conscious. +And erm they are doing whatever they can do just to keep people aware of the need to maintain safety margins. +And unless you do something positive yourself to maintain safety margins you're not gonna turn around and say it's not gonna happen to you. +The chances are you're more likely to be involved in something. +And so the idea of these days is just to reaffirm these erm basic principles of safety. +But having done it, having completed the half a day or whatever it is we have, you know it's not really a case of saying Right well that's it. +It's something which really should be thought about continuously er and carried on. +Which is why of course they've decided on th the grading system that they have, that they want people to achieve perhaps a class one status wherever possible and maintain it. +And it will not be maintained really unless that sort of effort is put in throughout the year. +So th as far as si Oh excuse me. +As far as the risks are concerned then we feel that by adopting a technique, defensive driving technique, that the risks will be calculated more in your favour. +Do you not agree with that? +So let's drive on the road taking a calculated risk, as opposed to sort of just driving along hoping it's never gonna happen to you and I. +Now I'd just like to sort of This is a This is not very clear on here but I would just like to bring out This is an accident which happened down in Kent about two years ago now. +And this is er a dual carriageway. +It's not motorway. +That's the central reservation. +But there are no crash barriers down the centre, it's it's straight over. +And er this is the way to Dover and the docks, this is the way to London. +Nighttime weather conditions good visibility, fine, clear, no real problems. +But it was dark. +And these this is er a private car going along the road about fifty miles an hour going down towards Dover. +Now this is er a lorry,end it's er I think it's a Frenchman. +So it's a left hooker, the driver's sitting over there. +Now this is a a British lorry coming down in the offside lane, cos it's only two lanes. +And erm this one is slowly closing on that one, this one is catching up on this one at quite a rate of knots. +And you can tell what's gonna happen can't you ? +As this one comes up to this one here, this one then pulls out to overtake this vehicle. +And er to avoid a collision and in fact I think they did strike but I'm not really sure, but to avoid a collision this one then goes over the other side of the road, picks up this Ford Orion coming the over way, rolls it over the bank, and it goes underneath the tractive unit of the artic. +And consequently this poor guy is killed. +Now I I'd just like your your opinions as to what you think that erm you you would How would you think about that as a accident? +Was it a Who was to blame, would you think? +If we're gonna call it a blameworthy accident. +So first of all we'll have a look at a a blameworthy aspect of it, then we'll have a look if whether or not it was avoidable. +Can I ask you who you would think would be to blame for that accident? +Er overtaking one could have maybe slowed down . +Yeah. +Would you agree with that? +Yeah. +Yes. +. +Mm. +I think that as professional drivers we would all w look at that and s and see that Er I mean been out with very many lorry drivers and er that is the way that I've sort of been with the majority of the guys that I've been in. +Every now and again you're with somebody who's putting their foot down and either not anticipating enough or not thinking in enough depth, or they might have an attitude whereby sod it, I'm just going anyway. +But absolutely right, I mean there the guy should be able to see that this person is closing up on there. +And the thing to also as he gets closer, as it's a foreign vehicle he should be able to +. +clock the? +The left-hand drive. +Yeah. +Clock that it's a left-hand drive, and therefore perhaps give a little bit more consideration to that driver and anticipate the fact that he might come out. +Now when the accident was all complete and over and the the tachograph of this vehicle was examined, the speed was I think it was eighty two or eighty three miles an hour Stan wasn't it? +Yeah that's right. +Now +. +That's plenty fast enough for a for a thirty-eight-tonne articulated vehicle isn't it? +Fully laden. +Plenty fast enough. +He's got a bit of a roll on going down the hill would you not agree? +Now again,that is too fast for an H G V. +It's too fast for anybody in some circumstances. +But let's face it gents, speed in itself on a completely open road with nobody around is not in itself dangerous, that's down to the individual. +I might suggest that perhaps eighty three miles an hour is a bit over the top anyway. +But when you've got other moving vehicles around and things which could happen, eighty three miles an hour is far too bloody fast isn't it? +Far too fast. +So certainly er your point is absolutely right. +What so what be p doing then, would be looking, assessing and anticipating that this might happen, and then easing off and an and holding back to see whether A, is he going to come out? or B, is he going to steady? +You're satisfied he's staying where he is, before you move through. +What about erm any would you say an er blame attached to anybody else? +Well er partially in that the lorry that pulled out +Yeah. +mainly for the boy at the back. +Because of his speed and er Th certainly this one here, I mean the Highway Code says that you must make sure that it's safe before you commence an overtaking manoeuvre. +And he hasn't done that has he? +Erm he's Alright you can excuse the fact that he might be a left-hand drive vehicle. +This bloke here has only just come about fifteen miles up the road. +He's from his depot. +He hasn't come far. +No telling us where I don't know this one come but being a foreign driver I mean he he could have from anywhere in the country and he could have been on the road a long time. +And the fact that he's a left-hand drive he's erm perhaps not got quite the view out of his offside mirror, or our offside mirror it would be to us, that perhaps somebody like yourselves have with er a right-hand drive vehicle. +So he certainly didn't pay due care to the pace and the speed and make sure that he'd got a safe gap before pulling out. +So certainly. +I think the end result was that erm I say this man was dead so Married man with four children just coming home from work, minding his own business. +He got two years for dreath death by reckless driving. +This one was done for driving without due care and attention and he got the maximum fine. +It was fifteen hundred quid or something like that. +But that was the result. +Now we've got it erm Are we switched on here Stan? +Yeah. +Gonna do it for me? +Th this is just a a video of the erm accident itself. +It only shows you the the aftermath of it,but i it's erm just highlights the point. +And when we're talking about defensive techniques, anticipation obviously is one of the things which is the hallmark of the top drivers isn't it? +Your degree of anticipation is It's one of the most important things which is going to keep us safe. +One of the top skills a driver's got have on a road if he's gonna maintain safety. +This guy when he the policeman spoke to him afterwards, his words to the policeman Now let's bear in mind he might have been in shock. +His words to the policeman were I like driving fast don't I? +. +I know but I mustn't say that on here. +. +This is not for er any sort of This i I'm doing this talk here for erm Stanley's daughter who's at er college, and she likes to hear the sound of my voice when I'm sober. +So . +If I do say the odd naughty word just scowl at me. +. +So you can see that er that's the Orion underneath there. +They're just zooming into it there. +It's absolutely smashed to pulp. +It took three hours to get what was left of the body out. +That's a job in itself then. +N +Yeah . +Mm. +If you think of the trauma on the people who have to deal with that . +aye. +Now you never forget those sort of things. +Yeah. +Cos both Mick +Aye. +and I were used to do that sort of work, and er +you can remember every incident. +Particularly those that very harrowing. +You never really forget them. +I know those pictures there are just showing you the result of something but you know when we discuss erm er a p er a situation it's not a theoretical situation, it's something which happened, something that does happen. +And erm you know as lorry drivers, we we class ourselves as the professionals of the road,but at the end of the day our standards or our reputation is tarnished by the actions of a few isn't it? +And I'm sure that when we go down the road we can Although i we're always ready to look at erm car drivers and some of the stupid things they do and some of the stupid things that they do which annoy us, at the end of the day w you've still got to bear in mind that erm there are people in our own fraternity, as it were, that er don't do as they should. +. +But let's see just see the number plate on it underneath there the +. +cab's rolled right over the top. +Sometimes these blokes they have just to commit one particular error, resulting in a action like that. +. +And erm +Just that one wee mistake . +That's all it needs. +That's right . +Having said that, the tachograph of that particular vehicle illustrated that as far as the speed was concerned it wasn't one isolated incident. +In other words he was consistently at that i part on that particular day, +. +without backtracking on previous ones, on that particular day he was pushing it. +. +For whatever reason. +And the reason doesn't matter as Mick has said because we're talking about the situation and the man's attitude of mind at that particular time. +All that's all that it needs you know, for him to alter his attitude. +Right. +So when we're talking about defensive driving and we're talking about safety, which is the main object of all this,to keep yourself safe one of the most important things is the attitude of the individual, would you not agree? +And it's the attitude I think that very often causes everything from a major accident like that where someone loses their life, and very often to the small little scrape on a lorry which occurs in a in a in a yard. +The attitude of the driver. +Bit too fast, bit too blase, whatever the case may be. +Having said that,I've been on some of the deliveries that you guys have to do, and some of the places where you have to go into, and er I fully appreciate it's not easy. +And the fact that I say that a lot of these accidents happen because perhaps you're not paying the attention, very often I've been or know of situations where the bloke is really paying attention to what he's doing and the still the unfortunate occurs. +So I'm I don't want to sit here holier than thou, start preaching that erm you know things are not going to happen, because we're all human and we all make errors. +But erm we could cut down an awful lot of these accidents and erm it doesn't matter at the end of the day what level it is. +Cos the end result Th the potential is always there. +Do you follow what I mean? +The end result might only be a slight scratch, but the potential might have been in that situation for something a lot worse. +So it's it's always there. +And attitude is the thing which erm we look at quite closely, and I think you must consider your attitude. +For instance, a person who naturally er y has a got a bit of a short fuse. +Now that very often, you get that sort of individual, their attitude could at some or other be detrimental to their standard of driving. +Would you not agree with that? +So she other thing is you get p some people who are naturally aggressive. +Car drivers for instance, you you get car you the Your neighbour is probably the nicest bloke you've ever met in your life. +Soon as he gets behind the wheel of a car he's an absolute dickhead. +Taxi drivers. +. +. +You probably know a few.. +. +What are you looking at me for? +. +. +We must have touched a little spot there I think Stan. +. +So th this a aggressive attitude. +Now the other way of course which your attitude can er be affected is that you're probably yourself quite a relaxed steady sort of guy, but do you respond, do you react to the antics of another road user? +In other words, someone throws down the gauntlet, do you pick it up? +You know we've all see th t One we've discussed a couple of times. +Down the motorway, say just two lanes, or whatever, roadworks ahead, all moving down, the offside lane closes in eight hundred yards, six hundred yards, and you're going along in your lorry and the cars going . +Two hundred yards,,still going by . +Three inches. +They're still gonna try and get by if they can. +Now very often I c you can understand it can't you that these people And you're in the queue. +You you're sort of just stopping and starting, stopping and starting as the others are going down. +And you could quite rightly think, Why don't they take their turn? +Now you could react in two ways. +There's the one coming down, right at the last minute, wants to get in at th the very last minute. +You've got two options. +The o +. +. +What was that Dougie? +Oh sorry, I mustn't mention the name.. +. +That's right. +You can, as I said just now, pick up the gauntlet and say squeeze him out and force him through the cones and whatever thing might result of that, you just don't know, or you can say, Well alright, ease off,go on, you have the space, I don't really need it, I'm not in a hurry. +Now the the correct attitude we all know is the one where you ease off. +And I suggest to you gents, that's the only way you can drive without getting involved in something. +Cos the minute you react to what that person's doing, your involved and y and you're as bad as he is. +So The other thing you've got to think about, if you do react the wrong way, and we've probably all been tempted to at times if we haven't done it, but if you do react the wrong way,consider who is that person coming by? +You think it could possibly be, and it may well be, some rep, in his car, rushing from here to there, don't give a toss about anybody else, as long as he gets where he wants to go. +And that is in your mind when you react the other way. +Would you not agree? +Have you ever considered to stop to think, well it it might be your son, your daughter, who's just passed their test,and that's doing this in er and just doesn't know any better. +I mean because motorways can be quite frightening to people who've just passed their test. +And they get themselves in situations don't they, inexperienced drivers? +Which they wish to God they'd never got into. +So it might be with a bit of help from you,y you could teach them a valuable lesson. +I it may not be the case, but I think it's possibility you've got to consider, isn't it? +That by easing off, holding back, you could teach them a valuable lesson and they they'd sit there And you've seen them sometimes, when they come alongside you and they're forced and th they don't what to and they look up and go . +There's fear, they're pale. +And er so I think there's a thing you could think of there is that, who is this person doing this? +It might not be the dickhead you think it is. +It might be a lady driver with a couple of children in the car, again doing her incompetent best. +So I'd just ask yourself the question before you react untoward towards a situation like this. +worth the hassle. +Sorry? +Is it worth the hassle? +Well that alone. +That alone. +Because at the end of the day, if something does happen you've got all this filling in to do and you might well turn around and say It wasn't my fault, you could turn around and say it was their fault for coming by. +But was this situation avoidable? +. +It's worse when and you go . +. +I'd just like to sort of show you And th this is a +. +You've probably seen this have you? +Yes. +It's an accident on the M Six, and er now if you look there in a moment you'll see a car come out of control up through there. +Is that rain? +That's rain, yeah. +Look, see he's just he pry trying to brake. +Look at the van on +Oh . +the central reservation. +Everyone's trying to brake and get out of the way. +Now that starts it. +Look at the white van on the right . +. +Now obviously he's got nowhere to go. +Now watch the white van in the middle. +He can't stop. +Now look at the fast lane at them all pi piling in the back . +Oh dear! +Oh dear. +Oh! +That one goes right across . +. +Ooh he just managed to make it. +That's for all the people a couple of miles up the road. +Now look at Right at the very back, +at the back . +Er right at the top there you'll see an artic jackknife right into the back. +See him going across there? +. +Right across the carriageway. +Well that's effectively brocked that hasn't it. +Mm. +Doesn't take long does it? +No. +Attitude play a bit of a part in that ? +. +Hadn't noticed that. +. +It could have been. +The film is +. +probably a couple or three years old now, and it was +Right. +taken by +. +Sixth of August ninety. +Wish you could do that here. +That'd be fine. +Aha. +Turn it all back. +Start again. +The first guy who slipped there, probably these people that s maybe one or two in his . +What one? +What one? +And then this +Yeah. +. +As well as +. +looking at those that were involved in the accident look how close look how close +. +they are there. +Aye. +But look at some of the others. +You'll s +. +That guy I mean he was winging it. +He he was +He just couldn't stop so he swerved out you see and lost control +. +Mm. +He was so close. +Aye. +And er he he realized too late . +. +H I was gonna say, look at that lorry up there, which is probably this one. +Now er some of them can stop you see. +Mm. +Yeah. +Some can stop. +Coming down through there, at the top there, I think we've probably missed them now. +Th there er look. +Now he's +. +coming down quite steady. +There are some of +. +those are driving quite sensibly and can stop. +he shunted up behind . +What we're trying to say gents is that a situation like this, the best driver in the world really y you you could get involved in something. +But you can take efforts, you can make the effort yourself to keep yourself safe. +Separation distance. +is the mo Especially in that sort of weather. +You've gotta keep well back. +You've gotta give yourself that time to react and that room to manoeuvre. +And if you've got somebody right up your bum keep further space so that you can lead them into a situation safely, as opposed to sort of having a anchor on yourself. +. +Now i it's the sort of thing that you y you read about, you pick up the the paper, you put n news on, and Nasty accident on the M Eight or M Six, whatever the case may be, and a lot of vehicles are involved. +So the lesson to be learnt from that is that erm it's not always possible to keep yourself out of trouble, but you can do what you have to do to keep yourself safe by maintaining a proper separation distance. +And bearing in mind when you get that sort of weather, the separation distance has to be double. +Do you know what th we mean by the two-second rule? +No. +If you pass a too fast. +That's right. +And for lorries they say four seconds. +Which should be in some cases be doubled in very bad weather like that. +Now obviously the you could see the cars in that fast lane there, they were just nose to tail, nose to tail. +And you can see them like that every day you drive down a motorway. +But stop and think gents. have you ever seen lorry drivers like that? +Mhm. +Mm. +Mhm. +Now +. +. +A lot of people would turn round and say Right I'm a lorry driver and I I leave a nice gap. +What happens to the gap? +. +Somebody will pull int between it. +But then you might feel that you're going backwards but you still just modify your position to keep that gap there. +And just ask yourselves the question when another lorry's coming by you, what do you do when he's just clear? +Flash . +Flash him to let him come in ? +. +And when he comes in what have you done to your safety distance? +. +So again, it's a thing which you might consider when you're er letting vehicles come in front and er I the rights and wrongs of erm flashing lights, er really the only flashing lights should take the place of a horn. +That is the Highway Code's erm system for flashing signals. +Y drivers, we know they have their own code,and er what we say is, although we perhaps don't agree with it ourselves, you do it. +All we say is that just be a little bit more considerate about when you do do it. +Don't go along the road trying to keep yourself a nice separation distance and as soon as the tail end of another lorry has passed you flash him in and then you're like this. +Consider delaying the flash till he's gone by a bit further or whatever the case may be. +And there's no doubt about it the flashing of the lights is is a beneficial thing. +Especially I mean you're in the nearside And you've got limiters fitted now have you all of you? +. +You're in the nearside lane and you're going uphill and er you're trunking away quite nicely, you see a guy coming down in the fast lane, down the hill getting a bit of a roll on, fully laden, and he gets halfway up the hill, he runs out of steam and he's looking for a hole to get into. +So as a l fellow lorry driver you would probably think Well I'll ease off, and when you think you've got a gap there you give him a flash, Okay mate, you can come in now. +Now he he's quite erm receptive of that isn't he? +He's quite pleased to think that someone's given him a hole to get into. +So that's nothing wrong, I mean that's fine. +But just consider as I say, when you flash people, that you've got to maintain the separation distance. +Now th there's two things we want the separation distance for, and one of them, as you say, is time to react +React. +and to stop. +What's the other reason we want er a nice separation distance between ourselves and the vehicle in front for? +Probably even more important to some extent. +So as you can see . +So that you can see. +Obviously when you're driving along the road the observation y wants to be up the road as far as it possibly can be. +And er therefore if you can see mile, half a mile,quarter of a mile up the road, you can see other vehicles slowing down, brake lights coming on. +You don't need the brake lights of the guy in front of you to tell that he's gonna stop, you've anticipated that in a minute this guy's gonna stop so you you're already er braking and slowing down. +Now if you just pull in a little bit too close, it's a natural reaction of the body to direct the eyes at the vehicle which is going to cause you the danger. +And even though you may physically be able to see up the road your eyes won't be looking there. +And then So now you're travelling a little bit too close, your eyes are glued on the back of the vehicle in front, what's the sort of feeling you get? +A little bit tensed up? +And i you're a bit on edge? +And yet people you see them, lorry drivers and car drivers, but lorry drivers themselves, they're happy to go along the road at fifty sixty miles an hour with such a short distance between themselves and the vehicle in front. +And the thing is when these sort of trailers and boxes like you've got on there, you just can't see. +And people are quite happy to do that, and there's te the the the stress and the the tension must build up inside. +And er as probably er you gathered Stan and I are both ex-policemen in relation to erm to er our our background and er I think I said yesterday to the er some of the guys as well, one of the things that lorry drivers and policemen do have very much in common is that we have pr probably one the shortest erm pension lives of most professions. +. +And it's because of the tensions, the adrelion , and the old bloody heart keep going. +And as it t as er as you get on in later life, you know it tells on you. +So let's sort of think about attitude, keep back, keep ourselves safe. +You're a lot less stressful,you get to the end of your journey a lot fresher. +You can take a journey of three hundred miles if you like. +One guy's a bit of a teararse. +Pushing on, pushing on. +The other guy takes his time. +. +The difference in the overall running time will be negligible. +All the guy who's pushing on has done is got from one holdup to the next holdup quicker than the next feller. +I think that's fair to say that, do you not? +One guy's got there thinking Cor! +Let's go and have a fag I need something I've worn out, had a hard day's work. +The other guy will rea really get out of his cab and think Well well we've got here now, go and have a cup of tea. +All goes over his head. +Do you think there's any value in that? +Just like to show you a couple of videos now. +We're talking about attitude. +Now th the first one is erm What is the first one Stan? +. +This is er +. +a personal carrier. +Oh no. +The first one is a bloke wants to overtake. +Lorry in front, car in front of him, and he's number three. +And he's so desperate to overtake. +And the position he goes at. +You could be a lorry coming the other way. +Again it's attitude. +You see the lorry up the front? +You see the one just pulling out? +Now that was Now look at the vehicles coming the other way and there's a car in front of the opposing lorry. +. +What a plonker. +Now he went completely blind didn't he? +That lorry braked as well. +The one coming the other way. +Yeah. +. +I think he's passing two. +I think he's passing them both on the same time . +Mm. +. +Three of them. +. +Look at this. +Now this is a van,load it's a it's a personnel carrier. +A load of schoolchildren going on a day out. +Now he starts to overtake, and you'll see there's a sou sign on the left, a roundabout sign they're approaching. +He's go no hole to get into and pr looks there the person not letting him in. +So he stays out to the centre. +So again he's approaching the roundabout and he wants to go straight on, so he's completely in the wrong position. +And what does he gain? +Why didn't he just stay where he was behind the vehi Everyone else was taking their time. +Now watch as he goes round the roundabout. +. +Now he's on his way now, yes let's get through here, we can't hang about here, let's get through and away. +. +Now as he comes out of the roundabout he starts overtaking down the offside of those vehicles. +Which throws him He's got no view there has he? +No view whatsoever. +And as you'll see in a moment he's completely on the wrong side of the road. +Now what if something had been coming the other way? +Another lorry? +Agai overtook completely blind. +Attitude? +It's gotta be hasn't it really? +Mm. +Just an aggressive pushing attitude. +Now you'll see the speed in the bottom left-hand corner. +Now this guy is er out for a little afternoon run on his motorbike. +. +. +Now the thing is, you'll see in a moment there' some lorries. +You'll see some lorries up the top, one of the being an N F T lorry. +I think you might find one of the lorries is overtaking the other one. +And er he's being followed by an unmarked police car. +And you can see What have got up to? +Oh we're just just getting into four gear now I think. +. +Now there're the lorries, and the see the N F T just up there going round the bend . +must be going . +. +No that's a policeman. +His hands er s he's a bit worried. +. +. +Now he he's gotta find somewhere to go so where's the only p place that's clear? +The hard shoulder. +. +Now as he comes in front of that lorry back onto the carriageway, if the one that was over taking suddenly decides to pull back in his mate having flashed him, the value of a nearside mirror? +Mind you, you'd have to be quick wouldn't you? +Cos he'd be . +Look and he's gone, up through there. +. +Now er +See all the flashing lights of the vehicles there, they're they're so incensed they're flashing their lights all over the shop at him er as he goes +Mm . +through. +But he actually went through between those two goods vehicles. +Came up and shot in and then went round. +. +And, additionally, there's an intersection there. +You know an exit. +Mm. +Now you s there's a situation where that was attitude absolutely stupid. +The num amount of vehicles which were around. +Now this one is speed in itself. +Not the erm complication of of vehicles to the extent we saw with the motorcycle film just now, but this is erm again The the police car is staying well back cos he's following this vehicle you can see a hundred and thirteen, well the speed's gets up to about a hundred and forty in a moment as you'll see. +. +It's a s a straightforward er an M R Two. +. +This is a S er Opal Senator or a Vauxhall Carlton with a Senator engine. +And he's following er a Toyota M R Two. +And er th th this guy +. +has got his nine-year-old son in the car and he's showing his son how fast his new car's gonna go. +Still not making a lot of impression on this guy . +. +Where is it? +H h he's just he's right in the distance. +In fact the camera can't quite pick him out. +As I say the +Now what was he going at that speed for? +Just to show his son how fast his new car's gonna go. +Er but how long was he doing it for? +Well look er Th this was more or +. +less shows you the whole of the chase. +But th that's actually they followed him for about ten miles . +So he's done that for five minutes there. +So anyway we I've got it here somewhere. +So er just a just a few instances o of of actual film of things which happen on the road which depict attitude. +Any comments on what we've got there? +Now they're sort of things that you've probably seen yourself quite frequently I would think. +So the other The main thing we're thinking about then, with the defensive driving technique, one of the most important things is attitude. +So naturally we'll be looking to see the attitude of a guy when we're sitting there . +. +That's it, thanks. +What was that one? +That's the erm car in the +A and the +double white lines system, We'll show you this one in a minute, and coming the other way you will see there's an overtake. +And th I'm sure every one of you have been in that situation where somebody's suddenly popped out and committed themself to an overtake and they've got nowhere to go at all. +And that's a prime example of it. +And you see the accident with the car driver when the brakes come on. +But watch where the brakes come on. +In other words, if the bloke hadn't have got back there would've been a f a total impact. +Cos he wou his reaction time, understandably, cos he wasn't expecting it,ce happened like that and hi his reaction time was too slow to compensate for the stupidity of the bloke coming the other way. +But you'll you'll all recognize the situation. +. +After this one it runs into one with a car er car transporter. +The attitude of a lorry driver which you can have a look at . +Here he comes look. +Watch the bloke coming up there. +Now here he is, look, see? +Now see how the brake lights? +Ooh. +Now +phew! +the brake lights are that there. +far too late, cos he he didn't couldn't And I'm not criticizing +See the van dri +the fact just a a question of the bloke didn't have time. +You know, didn't have the time +Mm. +to react. +Completely overtaking against th o over the double white line in all that traffic. +There er here's a situation with this er er rather aggressive attitude of a car transporter driver. +Now he's overtaking because he can't see but nevertheless Look at the gap there. +The slightest movement with those +. +three lorries and there's a real shitcart isn't there? +What's the safety margins there? +Think of the turbulence between those vehicles there, you know the air displacement as they pass. +It's thirty seven miles an hour. +Not fast, but it's fast enough for that sort of distance between each oth +I bet shitting themselves. +. +. +He found out what colour adrenalin was when he got home. +. +Now you'll see him in a moment, he this guy driving he wants to go off on a slip road. +And it's one of those slip roads where you off and other people join at the same place. +But he's not g +Cumbernauld. +He's not intere Er yeah, Cumbernauld's a typical example of this. +Aye. +But he's not g no give and take with this guy, he's just taking advantage of his size. +Er and he's going You watch in moment the way he S see there's the one trying to come out, look. +Look. +And he got straight in front there. +There now watch and see the how he misses the central reservation, those bollards. +Now if that car had pushed on and didn't brake when he did, that driver would either have taken car out or the keep left bollards wouldn't he? +His speed was such he didn't approach it at a speed where he could erm er l lay off and er let something happen. +So they're just examples of attitude gents, which And it's attitude which causes the problems. +If you have a more considerate attitude one where you're going to sort of give way to people, show a little bit more consideration to other road users, I think you'd find that it's gonna it pays off. +Right very briefly, we've been here a little while now, is erm we're just gonna a little talk about the other aspects of what we call a defensive driving technique. +Have we got something on there Stan? +No that's the fog one . +The erm? +Fog. +Yeah thanks. +We'll show that in a minute . +Yeah. +So what a el else are we gonna to be looking for? +When we're talking about defensive driving, attitude plays a big part. +The other thing we're looking at of course is your technique as a driver. +Now the technique that you employ driving your vehicle is divided into two parts. +How you control the vehicle and how you read the road ahead. +Now controlwise, we can look at various things, and I think last year we had various discussions on different things, but, naturally, you're looking for smooth, positive control of the vehicle. +A nice balance between clutch and throttle. +Now I know that now you've got or two erm splitter boxes, yes? +And clutches not necessarily all the time? +But nevertheless, a nice balance can be obtained by giving that split time to get in. +If you rush it too much you can very often find you're in a false neutral can't you or whatever the case may be? +Then you've got to start again to try and get it. +Invariably it's done through bad timing or trying to rush it. +Not always. +It does a little bit of technique to get used to these things, I ag I agree. +But So we're looking for a nice balance between clutch and throttle, that you're not being jerked and the not clutch is not bloody flying every time that you take let your foot to engage a gear. +Nice balance of steering. +The steering should always be smooth, progressive, and accurate. +It's gonna get your vehicle where it wants to go. +Now steering on its own can very often be complicated by other aspects such as your correct speed for the situation. +Co that can affect your steering can't it? +If you're sort of travelling a bit too fast, you've gotta rush your steering, things might not be right. +But your er basic style of steering, and naturally we come from a training establishment, we think and we practise the push-pull method. +We think that is the best method. +Because it's the most accurate, it's the smoothest and you're always in a position to respond should you want more or less steering. +If you go over the top, underneath or palm, you are not. +Er plus the fact your hands could slip off the wheel or or whatever. +So we er advocate this. +But we we s we know that people have their own styles. +You might have been driving for years by going over the top of the wheel as a lot of lorry drivers do. +So although we think that our method is best, we fully realize that you've got styles, things th which you've built up over many years. +And providing your steering is smooth,positive and accurate,then we accept it. +It's no real problem. +So we realize we're not gonna be here to change the habits that have built up over a lifetime. +You can't change habits like that b in two or three hours. +But if there was an aspect of your steering like erm + +Right now listen folks. +sh sh sh sh sh. +Can I remind you please if you're answering a question can you please put your hand up so I can select . +Some of you know Now way back a couple of weeks ago when we were doing the group seven the one that's spelt F C L B R I A T. +Hands up who can remember what any of those stand for without looking on er +You forgot the first rule put your hand up. +Right fluorine is the actual element fluoride is the stuff that's in? +Toothpaste. +Toothpaste very good. +You never put your hand up. +Right C L +Please sir is chloride +Chloride is the is when it's joined up with something chlorine is the element. +And what do we get chlorine in? +Swimming baths. +Swimming baths to? +To take away all the nasty +To kill the germs. +Well it doesn't exactly kill them kill the it's got it's own smell which sort of tends to mask the smell but it's also basically to kill the germs. +B R? +Bromine. +Bromine very good. +And I? +Iodine. +Very good excellent. +S so what I want you to show you this morning is how we can actually make the chlorine. +So the people at the front yeah if if you come up a little bit closer. +Now sh sh sh sh. +Please Now I've got erm a bottle which is actually contains some chlorine here but it's not called chlorine liquid. +I'll scratch this. +Hydro +Chloric. +Chloric. +chloric acid and it also says C O N C. +Conc what is conc short for? +It's short for a word yes. +It starts with C O N C. +Anybody? +Conc is short for? +Nose +No conc er it's the beginning part of a word. +If you use the word conc you're just meaning your nose . +Conical. +Ah now we're getting a bit more scientific. +Conical if it was conical it would be C O N I conical. +But it's conc. +Now can you think of a wo c think of a word that describes the state of this liquid. +And I'm going to hold the top while I show you. +It's rather oily and it's quite a a dense liquid. +Is it dangerous? +It is dangerous yes. +I'm gonna get some goggles on in a minute. +What do you call liquid ah I'll give you a clue. +What do you call a liquid that's very very strong? +Concentrated liquid. +Thank you concentrated. +Now I Goggles on time folks. +Now in this particular case I'm using a tap funnel Tap funnel just as it's it's Erm the concentrated acid you don't just sort of pour it in and run away and leave it to it. +Let it in a little bit at a time. +Just slow Slowly let the acid in. +Then turn it off. +Right now so the tap is to control the speed at which the acid goes in and if there is any gas that's in there it can't escape out of that pipe again it's got to go down the other pipe. +So it's a safe it's a safety feature and it helps control the experiment. +So we control the speed at which the acid goes in. +And once it's in there it prevents the gas from escaping. +Now at the moment the black chemical that's in there is not doing a great deal. +The black powder's just sort of gone to a a sludgy paste . +The powder's just gone it's dissolved a little bit but it's not really doing much on its own. +So in order to speed it up a little bit we might need need to heat it up. +Who said that? +Me. +Well done. +Now who's going to go next door to get the gas switched on? +What? +Right Listen again sh sh sh sh sh. +Done it. +Sh Now in order to help this black powder to split up the acid. +We're going to have to heat it up a little bit. +Now again I'm treating it carefully I'm not just sticking the bunsen underneath and blasting away at it. +I've got the Graham wanted to well unfortunately Graham this one's a bit dangerous so I'm having to do it so if anything goes wrong it's me that gets it and not you. +Well because I've got all the dirty chemicals Sh. +Please. +Erm How will we know how will we know if there's any gas escaping? +What. +What's this paper? +P H paper. +P H paper. +So I'm going to moisten it. +Because of the gas that's drifting around in here What? +The gas can you can you set fire to it? +No it's not a flammable gas. +But it is poisonous so if I start smelling it I'm going have to switch the cupboard on to suck the fumes away. +Lorraine. +Now this P H test I've only had it a few seconds and already look what it's done to the paper. +Where I've wet it what's it done to it? +Turned it yellow. +It's turned it yellow and where it was dry it's now going what colour? +Red. +Red. +Red means it's +An acid. +an acid. +And because this takes what do you call something what do you call something that takes the colour away? +Bleach. +those are old pieces of paper. +Come on somebody what do you call a chemical A what? +Not a neutralizer. +Andrew? +We call a chemical that takes that takes +Now you'll see it. +What colour's the gas? +Green. +Right it's a green gas and it's also what it does it to this paper turns it acid to start with and then takes the colour away it is a bleach. +Bleach gas. +Now because it was frothing up I've turned the bunsen off to control the reaction it's slowing down again now. +And you can see the colour. +What colour's bromine on that list? +Black. +Black. +What colour's iodine on that list? +Black. +Blue. +Not it's not blue. +Purple +And they're all poisonous and they will bleach this the be this is probably the best bleacher. +This is highest the highest up up the list that we can do. +We can do reactions from F too dangerous. +Now sh sh sh sh sh sh. +Now this one I'm going to show you this one this time. +Karina? +Mm? +Why do we use the tap funnel again? +Cos we've got a tap funnel. +so if there's any gas +Yeah right it can't get out it has to go down the pipe. +Sir? +Stop shuffling. +Sh. +Can anybody oh I bet you'll never guess this one. +Why have I got a conical flask instead of a round flask? +Here's the answer. +The round flask is broken. +Erm I've go some purple crystals believe it or not. +now this one's a bit more powerful this purple chemical. +Shouldn't need heating up. +If I put this white if I put the white paper behind the flask, can you see the gas that's in there? +Yes a yellowy gas. +Yellowy gas right and +Sir? +Yes? +Is that flammable? +It's not flammable it's poisonous it's acid and it bleaches. +It could yes in the in the First World War er they used It would +But how long would it take? +It depends how much you got into whether you had asthma or not. +You might you might have after you've s had some of this. +Now can I explain this part over here look at this. +Sh sh. +Er right I've got this contraption upside down leading into a a trough of water. +Can anybody guess why? +There's something else that this gas does in water. +If you'd got enough gas it would make bubbles. +But we've only got a small supply remember. +It may do . +What do what do things normally do in water. +Sometimes they move yeah. +Anything else if you just put some Right they sink or float. +What else do they do after they've either sunk or floated? +Rust. +They might rust yeah. +Or turn to a well what do you call it when they turn to a liquid. +What's the word? +They what? +They liquidize. +Liquidize. +They liquidize but you can liquidize things by heating them up that would liquidize them but in this particular case you just mix them with some water what's the process called? +To turn it into It's called what? +If you stir some sugar into water. +Dissolves. +It dissolves okay. +If this gas if this gas dissolves too quickly it'll suck the water back up the tube and into this flask. +It could be dangerous because if you're sucking water into acid you could have problems. +So Lorraine I've got this upside down funnel and that prevents the water from being sucked up. +How do I know I've got some chlorine in the water. +Well look what's happening to these test papers. +They're not acid any longer what's happened to them? +Mark what's happened to that that test the P H paper there? +It's all gone white. +It's gone white what's the pr what's the pr what do we call it it's been? +Bleached. +Bleached. +So I've got some bleaching yeah smell you can smell that bleach. +I've got some bleaching chemical. +Wave it past your nose you don't sn Don't don't just I'll just wave it past your nose. +You don't want to much cos remember it is er poisonous. +Anybody else want no? +You want a smell? +Right. +So sh sh sh sh sh let's just sum up. +What was the liquid we started with? +What was the liquid we started with? +Erm oh that conc +Concentrated hydrochloric acid. +It's got chlorine in it. +We used a black chemical to start with but in order to that to help that we needed some heat. +And this one works on its own this purple chemical is more powerful and works on its own. +Adam can you go and turn the gas off? +Right now I don't know Mr. 's trying to book some. +What? +Erm science trips. +Where to? +Somewhere in +The Science Museum in London? +No no no erm somewhere in Yorkshire. +Somewhere where? +Somewhere in Yorkshire. +Er yes a gas gas gas fired power station . +Right can you go back to your places. +Right now +Sir have s have you seen Pride and Prejudice and the telly? +Can you look after those folks. +Well well did anything happen when I put the acid in? +Did any any of you three see what anything that happened in the first one. +so we had to put some a bit of heat in. +Nothing happened acid on its own. +Now we got . +Let's Right excuse me. +too small. +Erm does anybody know what this M N O two business is? +Have a look on your your periodic table and see if you can work out what M N O two. +You should know what O O stands for. +M N O two anybody? +Nitric oxide. +Something oxide yeah. +Part way there come on M N have a look on your page one of this module. +Work look up what M N stands for. +Anybody worked it out come on M N O two. +Magnesium. +Very close but not quite right. +Not magnesium. +Have a look look very close it's not mag it's No oh that's capital N this is a little N M N. +That's it right. +M N +Oxidizes +Go on read it what is it? +Magnesium. +No have you looked closer. +Manganese. +Manganese manganese oxide. +Please. +There you go. +Manganese oxide erm the back row decided. +Manganese oxide. +Erm +Excuse me sir thanks sir. +universal liquid. +Or a piece of universal paper or . +What does K M N O four stand for? +What does K stand for anybody work that one out on your periodic table. +K for anybody remember cos we've done this group. +What's this paper paper called? +P H. +Yeah that's P H. +Yes it is. +No not chrome. +Anybody what's K? +Potassium. +Well done. +Yes I know because it's come from an old an old word an old . +Er K potassium yes. +Erm then we've got a manganese K M N O four. +It's got two metals . +How which one's got most which one's got most oxygen in it the K M N O four or the or the M N O two? +M N O two. +Why? +That's a guess. +Well look at the numbers. +M N O two K M N O four. +Oh I thought K M N O four. +Yeah why? +Cos it's got number four. +It's got four oxygen atoms and that's only got two oxygen atoms. +Well done Michael. +So K M N O four's got more oxygen. +Erm what does this word property mean in number four? +Property. +Now you're gonna tell me a property is something that you can +Yes something that's good about it very good. +So what's what what are what's chlorine got that say no other gas has? +It's a germ killer yeah anything else? +Er. +How would know it if I brought a jar full into the room? +Smell it. +Smell it. +Right erm what else. +How would we know a jar was full compared with an empty jar. +Just to look at if the lid was on. +You can see it. +Why? +You can smell it. +No we've the lids on this time. +Sir it was oily and you can see it. +No that was some drops of acid that you could see We're trying to work out what the properties of this gas if you're not listening you won't be able to do number four. +It's smelly it's +yes it's poisonous yes that's a property good. +Another one? +Mm that's a use not a property. +What colour It's yellowy green yes +How we doing folks? +Good. +Sir I've finished. +Right goo you know that erm acid thing you were doing this one be finishing that off. +I dunno I can't remember. +You marked it. +and have you done a key +Yes. +Well a key should have a little bit at the bottom to say what what's it stands for. +Oh you've done that red ones, yellow ones, where's your yellow ones Your key doesn't match your chart. +You've put green ones and they're the metals . +Your green ones are the alkali earth metals. +You've got this all all wrong. +Tell you what I'll get you another one. +How are we doing ladies okay? +Number five oh Can anybody tell er on number five why we got the upside down funnel. +No. +Now come on this is a check of who was listening +Why have I why have we got that upside down funnel? +Sh sh sh sh. +Sh sh er no. +What does the gas do to the water? +Mark Mark Mark. +It does but it might also do the gas might do something else as well. +Turn the water green. +How could it turn the water green what would it have to do in the water? +Bubble. +Come on we're going back to this shove it in water business again. +Oh it dissolves. +Dissolves stop it from sucking the liquid back again. +dissolves to the stop the liquid from being sucked back into . +The gas dissolves. +the gas starts to come off when I just put the acid in. +Yeah so you've got to heat it up . +paper some P H erm +Darren Darren sit down please. +that funnel right now how did we control the speed at which the acid went in. +With a tap. +And then once all the acid was in if you left the tape open what would happen to the gas? +It would just escape so we sh close the top and the gas has got to . +Down the tube and into +Yeah down the other tube and into the what's the thingumajiggy? +What do you call it that tall cylinder thing? +Thingumajiggy? +You'll never guess it's for collecting gases so we call it a +Gas . +Gas jar. +Not far off. +Oh. +Now come on. +Speed it u yeah cos the black powder wasn't powerful enough. +Can anybody tell me why the black powder's not powerful enough. +Look at the shorthand for it M N O two it's not got so much? +Oxygen. +Very good it's not got so much oxygen. +So you've got to give it some heat to help the oxygen to work. +Now if anybody's finished and is wondering what to do check through and make sure everything is up to date. +And then I've got some work here for those who thing everything's up to date. +So don't start this work until everything else is up to date. +It's on the end of this . +And if anybody's been away and has got or has got missing sheets I've got spare sheets down here. +Question sheets Don't forget your acid posters by the way. +Or you getting another one. +It's Right I would. +The only problem is I haven't got many colours. +You'd you'd do better to use your own colours if you've got . +How are you doing okay Dean? +Oh right well you need Oh not again. +Right who can tell yes go on Michael. +To let the acid in. +To let not out to let what in slowly. +The acid in slowly right. +It lets the acid in slowly and once the acids in what does it stop next? +Carbon dioxide +So whatever's in there can't get out up there it's got to go through another pipe it's got to go through the other pipe. +Two two reasons. +To stop the gas from escaping and to let the acid in bit by bit. +Sir? +Yeah. +Er you could put P H or universal or any antacid indicator. +Sir +Properties who can tell me a property of this gas. +Look at it in through the in the fume cupboard I can see one from here. +Green. +It's green right good. +It it's a bit misty alright fair enough that's a property. +Anything else? +If it can fall down out of that pipe into the jar it must be? +Very good be heavy. +If it erm sucks the water up if you're not careful it must. +How can it suck the water up by? +It hasn't actually done cos I put that funnel on the end to stop it from doing it. +Yeah it would cause a vacuum as it dissolves. +So it dissolves obviously. +Have you got the smell one have you put the smell smell one down. +Smells of? +Swimming baths or bleach or You can put some universal indicator or erm P H paper or +To stop it from sucking because it dissolves too well It's like you in there drinking drinking er coke out of a straw if you you suck enough It'll all end up in your mouth. +If you just put a pipe straight in the end of the liquid it would suck the liquid up. +Right Darren if you've finished the qu +To s stop from sucking up +Now who's finished? +Number three you could on the filter paper I've out some of those P H test papers. +You could put universal, P H, litmus anything. +Oh yeah probably we don't stop just cos you're not . +Are there any I've got the index out here if you want one. +I'll thank 'em all very much then. +Oh fine you want to thank them now. +Can I thank you all very much for being cooperative. + +Come in. +Good morning. +Hello Doctor. +Now stranger, what can we do for you this morning? +a long time. +A number of years. +Aye, it's a long number of years. +You've got spots . +Mhm . +I was told it was chicken pox, but I haven't +Mhm. +been to a doctor. +Aye. +I've had this for over a fortnight. +Did it just come on all of a sudden? +I think what happened it started on my legs, here. +Right? +Oh deary me . +Now for a while, before I went to, I went to . +That's turned into . +Right. +It's okay. +we'll get that cleared for you. +I thought it was +Yeah. +like that. +No. +Four or five days and it should all be starting to +I hope it's not turning . +A germ, there's a germ that floats about in the air and if it gets onto the skin when it's broken. +It +Was it? +Was it originally +. +Well it looks as though it could well have been +originally chicken pox? +like chicken pox. +Yeah. +But that's all it takes, it's just the skin to get broken, and underneath the skin and it just spreads and it's +And you haven't seen my arms. +Same. +Alright. +Okay. +My arms are really bad. +Let's get that sorted for you. +it was chicken pox and I'm saying to myself it's very infectious. +What about , is that infectious? +Yes. +That's contagious as well. +And the funny thing was I've +Mm. +only been off my work for about er seven days. +I was at my work for a couple of days, +Mhm. +when this started. +Yeah. +So I must have passed it on . +Aye. +Impetigo isn't nearly as easy to pass on as chicken pox. +In fact it's, it's really You have to be living in the same house as somebody who's +I was ask asking myself . +Aye. +You, you've got to be using that same towels, you know, that sort of thing. +Aha. +You know, actually,mo all more or less direct contact +Aha. +before you can pick it up. +Mhm. +So there's no terrible worry in that way, that you've passed on to anybody. +And that, I wouldn't worry about that. +get that thing? +Ah, you could get it anywhere, I mean even, see the likes of that, that wee cut in the back of my hand? +Aha. +Well it could start off in that. +Just just . +See I always wondered because er it seemed awfully slow in spreading it, it was there +that's right. +and a couple of days with nothing happening I'm saying, well, at least it's started clearing up, but then +And then it moved somewhere else. +it moved somewhere else and I'm saying I'm looking at it +That's right. +the only place I've not got it is my abdomen and my chest. +Right down the front. +It had nowhere to go. +Aye. +And it started on my back quite a bit, three of four days ago, well it's not just as bad but my arms are real bad. +Right. +Let's see if we can get you turned into a human being. +Oh dear, and I'm saying to myself it was chicken pox +Aye, but +I don't think I've heard of that impetigo Doctor to be honest. +Yeah. +it's years and . +It used to be quite a common thing. +Yes. +Correct. +Aye, I remember. +Ah, but it's y you still see it, I mean we still see it about once or twice every week. +Mhm. +But I mean it used to be every day +Aye. +we used to see it. +So, it all cleared up okay? +It won't +Yes. +Och aye. +leave a lot of marks? +No? +Well, I suppose it . +hopefully not. +No. +No. +No. +Now not nowadays, not with the, not with the stuff we get nowadays. +Now. +Now. +Now. +And what I've noticed is I've seen my bed linen. +It's been weeping at night when I'm sleeping. +That's right. +That's right. +In your sleep. +That's right. +most of this is drying up but the skull must get It seems to +Right. +weep. +That's right. +When the skin when we ju move around in the bed, the skin cracks open +Oh that's it, +it's all cracking here. +Aye. +Mhm. +And the same with the crusty bits +Oh aye. +, when you move around at night it's the crust cracks open +Mm. +as well and you get this weepy, sticky +Aha. +yucky er yellowy green +That's correct. +Aye. +coming out. +That's right, isn't it? +That's it. +That's er here you are young William and that should get rid of that for you no bother at all. +Right and er +two things, you've got a special stuff for during the day and a different stuff for bedtime. +Aha. +I is it +is it oral? +Or what is it er? +Tablets. +Both of them's tablets? +Both tablets. +Both tablets to take. +Aha. +And that'll get rid of that for you. +So I can get in ? +What about work? +An anything. +I can go to work? +Yeah. +I feel a bit, I feel a bit embarrassed . +Aye. +The only thing about work is are you working with oil? +I do work with oil, aye. +Ah well, no chance. +No chance cos that +I'm working on Thursday so I'm +Aye. +but I work with turbines and it's +Aye. +No. +It's for your own sake, because the o if the oil gets underneath the skin it can irritate your skin. +Aha. +So you're better er out the way of that for a week +? +or so. +Yeah. +How are you keeping yourself, Doctor? +Me? +Fine. +Oh, good. +. +Don't have much choice. +I would say I've been pretty lucky recently myself . +Oh, that's a good way to be. +It's a good time to be a stranger in here. +a bit guilty, you know? +Right. +See if we can keep it that way for another twenty years. +Aha. +Right. +Thanks Doctor . +Okay. +Right. +Much obliged. +So, what will I gi +things right now. +give it another week? +Give it a week,oh, within the week it should be a big lot better. +So that'll be the following +. +Let's say a week on Monday. +Back to work a week +Aye. +Monday. +A week Monday. +Great. +. +Aye. +Thanks very much. +Okay. +Right, Bill. +Right? +Look after yourself +Bye now. +now. +Bye. +Thank you. + +Come in. +Come in. +Come in. +mix up there. +Aye. +Well. +She shouted, Mary , and two of us rose up. +I said to the other one, are you Mary too? +She said, aye . +I said, which one ? +Oh dear. +. +Well now. +What can I do for you today? +Oh it's just it's not getting any better. +You're still having trouble? +Aye. +And er last time I came it was Doctor and he changed +Yes. +the tablets, and it's even worse now. +And he put me off the +Mhm. +and I don't feel the same for off of that. +I feel as if I have to use my spray more. +I seemed right doing, alright drying my feet now and not my . +You shouldn't have to use your spray more Mary because that's +Mhm. +Well I seem to be all tight +Right. +here. +Right. +Aha. +I know how it is? +My chest. +Aye. +I know how to do this. +We'll +Mhm. +get you sorted out. +Aha. +Even just, usually I used to maybe just have it once. +Sometimes I didn't even need it at all I could walk about shopping and everything. +Aha. +And this I've had to take it twice while I've been doing some shopping now. +I feel as if my, it's funny it's not a pain but it's like my, I'm just going like that +Aha. +Right. +Aha. +And he put me off of that the other ones you gave me with the, what was it? +Hexapol or something? +Hexapol +Aye. +And you +Yes. +I, with, with this Monit +Aye. +that he gave you +Aha. +that would have fought with the Hexapol There would have, there would have been a reaction between +Aye. +the two +Aha. +so that you you're safer without that. +Without that +the ma +without the Hexapol And you're better +I've a +taking the Monit +Aye well the Hexapol with me. +it wasn't doing me any good because it was +It wasn't doing any good. +still sore but it was still the same even with that. +Even with that. +Right. +Mhm. +Let's put you on this stuff and that'll get your +circulation . +At least they have spray now had a spray I don't know how long it is I've had it. +And that's how I'd be +You're +I mean I never went through it much, but this last fortnight +This is your . +I've been using it all the time. +get another one ? +Yeah. +No bother. +No bother at all +Mhm. +that. +It's usually in after you go I was never near the doctor myself . +Well that's +And this way he gets him a good life. +If they hadn't had tha the accident to his +Yes. +it was on the er the femur? +his femur that's +Aha. +right. +And that's er bosses are after meeting and this is the one that's er +That's going away. +that's sore. +That's going away. +Well let's +I feel that though I'd been dawdling it wouldn't have been so bad . +let's cure you. +Let's cure you. +Ah. +What do +So stop, stop, stop, stop your Monit +Stop the Monit +Stop them altogether. +Aha. +And what about +And s +the Batol +Mm? +No. +Don't touch the Batol No. +Aha. +These are pink tablets yo you start +Mhm. +taking them one in the morning and one at teatime and one at bedtime. +Aha. +That's three times a day. +Three times a day. +Three times a day. +Aha. +And, and come back up and see me in in three +Aye. +Aye. +weeks and +and they'll you know that er they've got ? +No. +You stop +Wee, wee pink ones? +stop that. +Would Deborah need to then? +I've been taking them all the time. +No. +You can stop them now. +Stop the . +Stop, stop the now. +Mhm. +Yes. +Mhm. +Stop that altogether. +And I've got all these other pills I meant to bring them out and hand them in at the chemists +Ah. +First time you're passing. +Aye. +the chemists +even? +That'll do fine Mary. +Aha. +the aches +the aches have been all +I all got, I all got, no. +I used the last of that er Minit or whatever you call it,Monit +but I've got in the house and I've got +Aha. +Well first time, first time you're coming up to the supermarket, drop it, drop them in +I just drop them in here ? +Aye. +Drop them in. +Aha. +No, no harm done. +Because I say it's stupid you know to destroy them or fling them away +Oh aye. +or that. +Oh aye. +Eighteen pounds +for a box is +Aye. +I know. +Aha. +expensive so +throw I meant in fact to put them in my bag when I was coming here and I forgot. +First time you're coming. +First time you're coming up. +No bother. +Thank you. +Thank you. +But that should do the trick Mary +And I +and it'll settle it'll settle +this as well. +And will I come back again or +will I? +Three weeks. +Three weeks? +Do you work? +You know +back here to see how +Aye. +you're doing. +Because it's alright doing my round the ankle and all? +Yeah. +Well we need to +Sore. +get skip ropes for you. +I need to I need exercise. +Right Mary. +Right. +Thank you. +Okay. +Cheerio now. +Cheerio. + +Feeling blue? +What do you do? +One hundred women have an idea or two. +Talking about depression is not something we do much, which is odd really because everybody gets depressed and vast numbers of us need help from time to time. +Though because perhaps we feel guilty or embarrassed about the whole area of mental health we're not tackling the problems when they come up nearly as well we might. +So we're going to try and start to change all that now. +Let me ask the one hundred women here, have you ever been depressed? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And perhaps the only surprising thing about that result is that, is that seven people have said no! +Ninety three have said yes. +Let me ask you whether you would regard yourself a depressive person? +Would you say are depressive rather than simply get depressed? +Button one for yes, and button two for no. +And there, only sixteen say they're depressive er people, eighty four no but the great majority here have been depressed from time to time. +About what? +I mean th a great variety of things are depressing but can you identify what makes you depressed? +Lack of money. +Sorry? +Lack of money. +Lack of money. +And that's something, that must be a very +Aha. +common one? +Aha. +And then that your, your household is well, the sort of er, someone's lost their job, you know, you start what are we're gonna do? +You know, how are we gonna manage? +Mm. +Etcetera. +Who else? +Ya? +After a baby. +Baby blues. +Baby blues. +Did you have baby blues? +Yes. +After my last one. +Just after one? +After the last one. +What's it like? +Absolutely terrible! +Horrendous! +What did you +I , well I just didn't realize it was anything like that, I had I've had four children and the last one there was thirteen years difference between them and it was really, really terrible! +He was about six months old and I didn't know what was wrong with me. +How long did it last? +About three months before I finally, I was husband made me go to the doctor or go to the doctors for me and that's when I realized it was depression I didn't know anything about it then. +Really? +Had you not been warned? +Had you not +No. +read anything? +No. +Yes? +Sometimes you don't need anything to make +Mhm. +you depressed. +Mhm. +Sometimes you've got a depressive illness. +You know, a manic depressive or a schizophrenic or whatever. +Yeah. +Beside you. +Living with somebody depressive has made me depressed on frequent occasions and th th the feelings of helplessness that you have in dealing with the person's depression. +Yeah? +Erm, one of the things that depresses me, is probably the main thing that depresses me is not being valued for what I am or what I do and I think many women suffer from depression because their strengths and their creativity are not recognised and valued. +Mm. +Anna? +Being a single parent. +Is that depressing? +Yeah cos there's, on your own all the time and you feel you've got no time for yourself and that can be fairly bad at times. +Yeah. +Er, it's not just single parents, I think er, married couples as well cos I think +Yep. +society expects everybody to cope well and they don't. +So I think that can become quite depressive as well. +Up there. +I think from what everyone's saying being a woman in Scotland today is that in itself er, a cause for depression. +I think trying to exist in society at the moment is extremely difficult. +And there's wi wide er, spread unemployment and there's the stress of being as that lady said, a single parent, erm, for women who work and have families they have their old conflict between what they're doing, doing at home and what they're doing at their work and who should have a priority. +So I think erm, just a combination of trying to get through the week can be a sort of depression for many women. +How do you cope with it, the ninety three of you who get depressed from time to time, whether it's severely or or or or not so severely? +I think it's a matter of giving yourself time of accepting that maybe you're feeling low or I fe , when I'm feeling low I say right, I can't cope with things I've got to give myself some time where nothing's gonna bother me, if I can manage it, an hour, half an hour, just doing something for myself that I really like and that helps me once I accept myself as being depressed then it helps alleviate the stress involved with it. +Is that something you think would work for everyone. +I think it's worth a try. +Doing something you like, if you can give yourself half an hour, or an hour, you know just say this is for me, and for me only. +Mm mm. +I think with erm, I I was brought up in a household where it was com , completely legitimate to admit to being depressed and that you would just have to cope, I think cope perhaps my most +Mm. +least favourite word in the entire language! +Women coping all over the +Mm. +place with +Mm. +all sorts of terrible stresses and the only sort of legitimate reason for collapsing is to allow somebody else to cope beautifully with your collapse. +I think with er, it's very interesting that people are actually admitting that they feel depressed and they have strategies for dealing with it. +I'm sure it's re relatively recent. +It probably is. +It'll be useful +Mm. +to hear more of the strategies. +Yes? +I think it's important to get a listening ear and know that there are other people around who will give you support. +You have to search that out. +I'm not su , absolutely convinced, in terms of saying +Mm. +having an hour away from it is enough, I think there are a number of women who need to look and get support from somewhere. +Is that hard to do would you say? +Erm I think well I think it is, at times. +I think in terms of people knowing, in terms of women knowing where they actually can get that support from. +And also actually getting them there, themselves there in the first place is very difficult. +Where's the yes? +I think it helps if you can identify whether the the erm depression is just caused by erm the circumstances round about you which can be alleviated by changing them or if it's caused by eating habits or erm or erm hormones or chemical imbalances in, I've suffered, I think, from all them as well! +Say like erm th stresses we're all under will cause depression, but after my had my children I suffered from reactive hyperglycaemia, low blood sugar, and we , that was glucose intolerance and I think an awful lot of women erm, suffer th from this and it's not erm found out and knowing the glucose intolerance I can understand how a lot of children erm, suffer from er problems with eating habits because I think this is being discovered more and more +Mm mm. +and I think society should be erm, trying to get to the root cause of like, chemical imbalances and eating problems rather than just putting people on tranquillizers. +Well I wonder how many people here, I mean ninety three people say they ha , they th they occasionally do get depressed, I wonder if you ever have taken er, mood controlling drugs such as tranquillizers? +Have you? +Button one for yes, button two for no. +It's erm it's regarded as er as an increasing problem er amongst women. +Thirty nine have. +Now we're talking about how you cope, the thirty nine who have do they work? +Don't they work? +Would you recommend it or wouldn't you? +And obviously everybody has a different experience of this. +Yes? +Er, I actually had two stillborn babies, one one year after each other and they put me on Valium and it didn't do me any good at all! +And my little boy was he was only about three at the time and I used to be used to angry at him and my neighbour used to come in and take him. +And I was married to a soldier so I didn't have any family round about me at the time so it was it was pretty hard. +And coming off valium was a lot harder because you don't realize that when you're on it you can't get back off it again. +Did you, did you get help coming off it? +Erm +Well you were obviously, well you prescribed it in the first place +Well +that was supposed to be help. +it was, it was actually there was a programme on television and my husband took me to the doctor and he said he felt I'd been on it too long, I'd been on it about six months and when I come off it, I come off it pretty quick and I ended up erm I didn't know what was wrong with me and it ended up I've now got epilepsy, and they didn't know if it was caused through erm I took a stroke about three four month after that and then I got the epilepsy as well, so they don't know if that me coming off it +Mm mm. +straight away, I just stopped it. +Down there. +Erm, I was erm, put on just for in ninety seventy three and your question that you're asked was and from nineteen seventy three till three years ago erm I know took my causes, I trust, put my trust in the doctors and erm over all those years I didn't realize that it was actually the tablets that was causing me the mental illness. +And saying that, in the last three years I since discovered, and it was quite difficult to, which I did find, that there was alternative erm therapists, which was lots of groups that were going on and once I got into it erm the , it opened up a new, you know I ne I've never saw the light at the tunnel that is shining brightly now! +Has anybody had the opposite experience with er with the kind of the drugs we're talking about, whereby they have been helpful and th , and they, and they would recommend them? +Yeah? +Er, I think anti-depressants can be helpful for a certain length of time but not for over a prolonged period of time. +Erm and I think there's a big difference between them and tranquillizers and people tend to get the two mixed up. +I think tranquillizers can be useful as well for a very short time limited period. +Erm, but I certainly found anti-depressants helpful. +Mm. +Yes? +Yes. +I just wanted to say that speaking as a psychiatrist +Mhm. +valium is not an accepted treatment for depression and that we have excellent anti-depressant drugs, particularly ones that have come just in recent years that are very effective for depression, and I think bringing a great deal of benefit to depressed people. +Well Ray say,i i I mean it's important that we yo you find out whether you are depressive, whether you have er ag , oh, something clinically wrong with you, whether you're just feeling a bit down. +But perhaps we don't really know enough and we don't know where to go for information, I mean I don't know er I, I I'm not an expert but there are experts here, how would you assess the services available to people who feel they do need help, or for people who perhaps don't know they need help? +Yes? +Yes I think the situation in Scotland is very poor! +I'm, I'm an alternative medicine practitioner and I tend to get a lot of people who are depressed coming to see me, people who have been through the normal routes +Mhm. +gone to their GP's, and often have been given some sort of medicine for their depression but haven't had the counselling side of things dealt with and they've just been given re-prescriptions, not necessarily seen every time for a re-prescription. +Behind you. +I think there are a number of counselling services available, but I also think it's very difficult sometimes for women to get there +Mhm. +and it's it's something about the shame around depression that we don't actually come forward for counselling and there's certainly not enough free counselling services in Scotland. +There. +I'm also an alternative therapist and I do find that this is one of the major problems, that ninety percent of my patients who come to me suffer from stress and depression, and really what has happened in a lot of cases is that they have been put on valium and drugs, they find the side effects are horrific! +And actually really in a last resort in many cases they come to you. +Mm. +Mm. +I went through a period of depression erm I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told that I was suffering from various illnesses, but nothing helped. +I was given anti- depressants, that didn't help and it wasn't until four years later when they actually admitted me to hospital and then an ulcer and the depression disappeared once it had been diagnosed. +But all the time I'd been attending the doctor I'd been told, first of all it was gall stones +Mm. +then it was something else +Mm. +then it was something else and I honestly thought the doctor thought I was cracked! +There's nothing the matter with me! +And I was taken into hospital and it was an ulcer and the depression disappeared after that. +Mm. +There. +I think speaking as another psychiatrist er the medical profession do have to look very carefully and perhaps how a lot of the damage has been done er with how women perceive whether they can ask for help or not because a lot of the women here have raised been giving tranquillizers and my colleague across there has pointed out that tranquillizers are not an appropriate way of treating depression. +Mhm. +And diagnosis is very, very important that, if you have a medical, clinical state of depression try and pull yourself out of it, by your, your own efforts and doing alternative things is not necessarily going to be effective. +And diagnosis is very important, as a psychiatrist again, training our medical students, we are trying to do a lot of education along that line because perhaps some of the older GP's, along the way, have not recognised the importance of this. +Well I, I went to a psychiatrist once looking for a self-help group cos I didn't want tablets or anything I just wanted somebody I could talk to. +Mhm. +But what I found when I went was I had to go through the psychiatrist to find this group cos it wasn't available. +My doctor didn't know anything about it. +So having gone there I got counselling which I found was very useful to me. +More useful than all the medications and so forth like them. +So once you found it +Aha. +it was helpful? +Yes? +Up there. +Yes. +Now, when I took post-natal depression I asked my health visitor, you know, where do you go? +And she sent me to a mother and toddler group, I mean, she didn't tell me about any self-help groups, it's mother and toddler, she just said take you and the baby and go to mother and toddler and that'll be it. +And that's all the help I got from my G P. +Beside you. +I found that erm, we run par , a self-help group as well for ladies with post-natal depression +Mhm. +and I found, for me personally and a lot of other mothers that it started in pregnancy. +Now, I don't know if anybody's had the experience but they're only interested in your unborn child, they're not interested in how you feel at that time. +I mean, you think you give birth and you're forgotten, I mean your health visitor visits your baby, and then you've got the baby blues, and we we are trying to do something to get them to help and warn people about when they are pregnant it can happen because it does start then, not after you've had the baby, it builds up and them wham, it hits you! +Yes? +I think mental illness isn't taken seriously enough. +I think that er, there's a problem, first of all you've identified that women experience er, depression and I think that's not taken very seriously by policy makers and people in power,na namely men. +I think women get depressed but men suffer from stress which is somehow more respectable it's more macho, it's associated +with work and +Aha. +you know, there are all sorts of means of dealing with stress +Mhm. +which are not always open to women. +But it's more pu , you know, it's almost de rigueur,mo amongst certain types of executive to be suffering from stress. +And I suspect it's the same kind of actual physical complaint that women who complained of being depressed have. +Yes? +Women have a lot different stress than men. +Men +Mm. +go out nine to five to work, they are stressed nine till five, women, especially women with children have it twenty +Mhm. +four hours a day, they don't have a nine to five job, they're on call twenty four hours a day and that's a lot more stressful. +Mhm. +I think that men tend to rely more on a crutch such as alcohol I don't if it relieves +Mm mm. +the problem more but it tends to be men that cope in that way and women aren't seen to cope as well, maybe they just don't use things like alcohol +Mhm. +as much as the men. +Well I'm vo involved in Crossline which is a a Christian run telephone helpline, erm, we off , also offer free counselling and they find that er, there's more men will actually pick up the telephone, cos they're not seen erm, whereas more women will actually come in for face to face counselling. +I think it's a stigma that a lot of men feel they can't show that they're depressed or they've got a problem so they'll pick up a ph , a phone. +Yes? +Well as the speaker before last mentioned, men are in fact diagnosed twice as often as women are suffering from alcoholism. +I think men tend to act out their depression more than women. +Yes? +I'd just like to raise a point that erm most men are psychiat , er mo most of the psychiatrists are men and that a lot of the diagnosis I feel, come from a very sort of patriarchal view erm, you know a lot of have sort of brought up the alternative sort of er medicine and er self-help groups, and to me, having been through psychiatry which is a, a huge machine that is very difficult to get out that er to me, that's the only future and there's millions of pounds going into psychiatry and we're reviewing it now with community care plans which, I I don't think anybody is actually clear about but er, you know, the the millions that are put into psychiatry, I'd like to see more sort of counselling er, become available or, more money given to sort of er mental health associations. +Mhm. +Following, from what was said there we know that there's, that there's a limited pot for mental health because that's the way it's going to be, we've been told that so there's a real big job for women +Mhm. +to look at er, a P R job about changing the way those resources are used so that they're used in the way that's been talked away, er, talked about tonight which is way that clearly many wo , many women want to see them being used. +And women have to got to get, get out there and ensure that the people who do plan the way that these services are are operated and managed an an all the things evaluated, that women have a real say in that. +Which women? +The women who are the professionals in the field or being +No. +The women who will use the services, women who have used the services in the past, and women who will use them in the future, and that's all of us. +Now, say more about that practically, because I mean if you're depressed, you may feel too depressed to go to a a professional, you may have great difficulty getting there for whatever reason because you're ashamed as someone mentioned, you're embarrassed, you don't want to admit you can't cope, which is a syndrome once you get there how do you pluck up the courage to say well actually what your offering me isn't good enough, I've heard on on television there is something better and I want it? +Gosh! +There'll be other people here who I'm sure who have done it. +But, it's up to organisations like the ones we work for to respond to that and to not be doing the planning on behalf of other people. +Yes? +I think we're still talking here about depression and how to go and +Mm. +find a cure erm perhaps we should try and think about why we get depressed in the first place, I know there's lot of people who co , here have had problems. +I think it's important to find space for ourselves which sometimes we just don't do. +You know, find things to do to occupy ourselves in other ways. +You mean cope? +Mm. +Well, no not cope but to +to enable us to cope we have find space for ourselves, do something, purely for ourselves rather than always be thinking about our children, thinking about the home thinking about the family, we're as important and I think that's what people must realize to begin with. +Yes? +I suffer more from a feeling of guilt, perhaps than men do. +I think it's part of a vicious circle, that sometimes it's guilt which leads to depression and then women feel guilty about being depressed and that's why they take what is on offer to them. +I think there's a great cult of perfection amongst women, that they're trying to be all +Aha. +things to all people all the time. +Research has shown recently that erm a life event, such as you described can precipitate depression in someone who's self esteem is low and I think this is where we women are more vulnerable. +Although we've advanced a great deal in the last fifty years, we still have a way to go and our self esteem is lower than men. +I want to turn this right round because a couple of people have mentioned guilt and er I I suspect that one of the reasons that women are a bit worried about talking about depression or or campaigning for changes in policy, or more funding, or or whatever, is that for a long time women have been thought of as the weaker sex, more emotional, more nervous, by a, a a male establishment, I'm talking about past centuries, isn't there a case for saying there's actually we have a right to be depressed, I mean, obviously it's normal, ninety three of you get depressed from time to time, the majority of you don't think you clinically depressive if it is, if it's normal to be depressed shouldn't the services to cope with depression, if we need outside help, be there and there's no shame in it? +I mean, you've got the right to go to the dentist, the right to go to the doctor! +Yes? +I think what would be helpful for all of us is to think of our er mental health rather than mental illness +Mhm. +and er, you know it's part of a spectrum, and if we're all as aware of er mental health as we are with physical health now, and if that was, was carried out in public education campaigns and in schools, I think you're right, we would have this right to mental illness as part of a overall mental health. +Ray? +Erm, it is part of the e education curriculum and design, the development of inter-personal, pschyo-motor and cognition skills apparently +so if the experts e actually gave me galloping schizophrenia because on one +hand I thought hallelujah and in the other hand will we make as mak , bigger mess of this as they did in multi=sensory teaching methods in a coordinative approach to learning? +What are the experts view on this? +How are they going to manage to implement this without making the situation any worse! +You'll blind us with science if we go into that right now! +Yes? +Erm, I think one of the important bits is th , the issue of why is is +part of it, why people get depressed? +And I think it's, a great deal of it is to do with failed expectations. +Whose? +And people get depressed, like when they're dealing with bereavement, that's an event in a person's life and causes short term dis , short term, very intense distress, but that's different from the way we're constructed through the media and all sorts of ways to be super mothers, super wives, super kiddie and a super this that and the next thing which none of use can meet all these demands at one go! +But because, the media hold out these expectations as the norm and people can't meet them all, they then feel failures +Aha. +and that is also why, going back to a point earlier on, why I think erm counselling and alternative medicine, and so on, is marginalized it would be such a rock to the social order to actually acknowledge that people are in distress because it's the social order that's causing that distress. +It's the media again! +But it's tru +And the patriarchal society. +But +I just wanted to bring up some of the underlying reasons for depression, and one of the large things that society is having to address just now is child sexual abuse +Mhm. +which er er in my profession as well I come up against all the time and I I think that we're not really acknowledging that that is very often a cause, for men and women +Mhm. +er of future mental health problems. +Beside you. +Yes. +I I wonder really, the only rational appro , response to the world at the moment isn't to be depressed, I mean, everyone looks around famines in Africa, and war and jus and depredation +Mm Mhm. +all around us +Mhm. +as well as more domestic problems within Scotland of unemployment and so on, I mean, really depression should be regarded as a normal response +Mm. +and what women are experiencing half the time is perfectly rational. +Yes. +I don't actually believe that that depression is normal, I believe that we can overcome depression, and I think there is some creative things that we can do out of a depression people can become stronger, they can tap into their resources inside with support and help, so I can believe it's a positive experience. +Mhm. +I think that it's important to recognize that to have a depressed mood is not to have a depressed illness +Mhm. +we all can get depressed if we're talking about a mood state, that's not an illness. +Depression, as an illness is not normal any more than having an ulcer +Mm. +or a coronary is normal, and I think again, that stops people for asking for help because the they're not sure whether it's a depressed mood or an illness. +If it's an illness it's a stigma. +I think it's also part that you know, you're walking along the street and you bump into somebody and they'll say, well how you doing today? +Say, oh I'm fine! +You never say, I'm depressed, and they're never really listening for you to actually say how you really are. +Our society goes round all the time expecting everybody to be fine, to be happy, to be cheerful, you know! +You're not allowed just in your day to day life to say to somebody, unless you know them really well, it's the shits today! +Well I'm afraid we're out of time there ! +There is help if you need it, out there and I hope, you may have heard something helpful tonight and er if you feel inclined to change things, I think everybody here would encourage you. +Goodnight. + +Erm somebody I know has asked me to er You know I don't know if you know how they compile dictionaries? +No. +Well they they read stuff and they get tape recordings of people talking and they go through and +Mhm. +analyze it and they see +Mm. +how words are used. +Yeah. +Because the language changes all the time, +Right. +and they have to keep them up to date. +Right. +And that's about What what what it is is they've just someone's asked me if I'll just do some recordings of some of the lessons. +Also it'll help me to see er if I'm doing the lesson properly. +Oh right, yeah. +Er it's totally anonymous. +It's typed up, they don't use the tape itself, they type +No. +it up from it with all sorts of weird accents and things put in, +Alright. +and anything that could identify anyone is taken out. +So that's that's a bit what it's about. +Erm it's tied up with Dictionary, it's and and that kind of D do you know of the project? +No don't know that. +Okay it's University and do that one. +But they all work more or less the same. +Could I turn that off? +Oh sure yeah. +The little red button on the top. +The little red button on the top? +Oh green o it's the green one . +. +So that should be recording now . +Spinning away there. +Yeah. +And then it won't it won't bother us at all will it? +Erm +Yeah there's that maths paper. +Okay. +Now then part of it is they ask me You don't have to, but they ask me to ask people to sign erm to say It's just to say that you don't mind your conversation being used. +But they won't There'll be nothing in it to identify you. +Oh sure yeah. +They take out everything. +I believe you. +It's it's very it's all done very professionally in that it's very well controlled. +Have you got the paper? +Right. +Have you had a look through? +Yeah I had a look er through it just before when I got it. +Okay. +It's been stuck in my bag all day. +Now when you looked through it and it wasn't an exam, twenty sixth or something was it ? +Yeah. +Did you think, Oh, of course, oh I could have done that, but +Yeah. +any like that? +Erm there's a couple yeah. +So we'll have a look at those and see if we can see why in the exam +Yeah. +it didn't That was obvious. +. +Okay. +So what have we got? +And this one yeah. +Okay. +Erm . +Erm what did you think when you saw it in the exam? +Erm I just erm read the question like and I just I I I thought it'd be like a triangle, you work it out on the triangle and then I thought no that +Okay. +can't be right. +Cos it's so much longer, the actual distance it swings through, dunno if it'd be flat. +Right. +So when you looked at in the in the exam, did you think, Oh, they're not giving me enough information here, or There's some trick I don't know, or what did you think about it? +I just thought it was erm I dunno, I ju I j just figured they were trying to get us to draw it draw it into a triangle.. +Well did did you answer the question? +Er no cos I realized that I was that it was totally wrong so I just gave it a miss and went on to something else . +So you th so you thought, Ah, draw a triangle, and then when you sort of Did you start it start the question at all? +Yeah, I drew the triangle on the paper and I realized +And then you thought, Oh that's wrong . +No that's +I mean you didn't go back? +So you realized it was wrong? +Yeah. +You thought, Oh, it's not a triangle. +So, what is it? +It's like an arc like. +It's an arc. +Right so you can see now how to do it? +Yeah. +And how d how do you it? +Er you measure get the erm well measure the whole circumference first, +That's it. +and then take that as a proportion of the +Mhm. +circumference. +Good. +So you you're looking at It's not a question of erm doing much calculating or anything else, it's just seeing what the problem is, isn't it? +Yeah. +If someone got the pendulum, gave it a flick +Yeah. +and it went all the way round, no problem there. +Two pi R. +But it doesn't, it just does Is it forty thirty degrees? +Mm. +It's thirty over three sixty. +So what was that? +Three marks. +So it wasn't a lot on that anyway, but it it it's don't forget that's a good indication. +I mean if they're only giving three marks for it you're not going to do a lot of geometry and all sorts of constructions and complicated things. +No. +It's going to be fairly straightforward. +So without knowing any more than you knew when you sat the exam,you could pick up an extra three marks there. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Just by not being thrown by the question. +Mhm. +Or Er don't forget, part of it especially in an exam,erm part of solving er any problem is, Oh, I know how to do this. +Ah, that doesn't work. +. +And then you go back. +You find out what's wrong with what you've done and sort of go off in another direction, or maybe follow the same direction slightly and veer off. +So don't be put off when your first attempt doesn't work. +Yeah. +There's still time in an exam, if you realize soon enough as you did, to have another go. +Now what about this one? +That one. +I I figured erm C er s complete accurately below accurately below the part of the wind that shows wind directions . +So I measured that, it was about five centimetres. +Right. +And so I figured that Complete must mean continue on. +Er but I did it at a scale like erm one centimetre for o for every hour it's blowing in that direction. +So I wrote it along the top of the er paper I was using. +Mm. +And I thi and erm I think west was seven, and that's only five centimetres, so I extended it another two centimetres . +Oh. +And I thought it was complete like. +And then and then completed the rest of it. +But what I should have done was measured that,that would have been about forty nine centimetres, this'd be out maybe +Right. +seven millimetres . +Right. +So that was sort of completely misunderstanding the question, +Yeah. +really. +You're maki making a an assumption that they're obviously going to use a scale of +Yeah. +one centimetre to whatever it is,one. +I mean thi this wind force here, er what are they? +They go up to Did you do the first part of it? +Yeah. +Yeah I did that. +Mm. +the the eight angles divided by three hundred and sixty so three si three hundred and sixty divided by eight. +Erm well let's have a look, again. +The wind blows from the north, okay. +Calculate the size of the interior angle of the regular octagon. +Let's have a little bit of paper and have a look at that. +You've Have you had your paper back? +Erm y +it back today. +Yeah. +And er then he took it back of us for some reason. +. +That's teachers. +. +Not very helpful was it? +Okay. +A regular octagon. +Erm how about if I leave you to do that one? +I'll make mine a regular hexagon. +Oh yeah. +Okay. +So if you want to draw a hexagon erm how many points equally spaced around the circle? +We're going to draw a hexagon inside the circle . +Yes there's six. +Six, okay. +And where will they come? +Zero degrees,Where's the next one? +Erm I see, that erm This one is That's sixty degrees it yeah . +Right. +So you're going to divide three sixty into six equal arcs +I see yeah. +of sixty. +And the next one? +That's a hundred and twenty. +Okay. +And then? +A hundred and eighty and erm then two hundred and forty. +Okay. +And er three hundred. +Okay. +And then you're back to the three sixty or nought again. +Oh I see yeah. +Okay. +So we've got got a a rule somewhere. +my ruler . +I keep losing my set squares and rules and things. +There's one though. +Okay where was the centre of that? +Right. +Now this is a hexagon. +Erm join that up, okay. +and we should finish up with about six sides roughly. +Now while I finish it off, if you'd like to just measure one of the interior angles that I've already done. +And what's it come to? +A hundred and twenty degrees. +A hundred and twenty. +Okay. +Now according to your theory that you were applying to that +Yeah. +one, you just divide You say it's a six-sided figure, divide three sixty by six +Oh right yeah. +Oops. +What angle does that give, that that sixty degrees? +Where could you find that angle? +Erm Could be oppo other side there if that was extended. +Okay. +I think so, if this was this this was extended . +Oh, right. +So if you extended that +That bit there. +That would be That is sixty. +Now we've got a very special case here haven't we? +Yeah. +Because we've got sixties all over the place so maybe it wasn't a brilliant one to try but it gives us some indication of what's going on. +Where's another? +Another sixty? +Erm between these, connected. +Okay. +Any other ones? +No. +Right. +Now that one is bound to be sixty, the the angle at the centre, because that was how we made it. +Yeah. +Put that down and we thought right draw the circle,space it out equally,six equal angles is what we were doing at the same time as six equal arcs, all at sixty degrees, or all at one sixth of three sixty. +Right yeah. +Okay. +Now the octagon. +Could you do that one? +Okay. +So we'll make a little centre somewhere. +Right. +Okay. +Right. +Okay. +Erm +So what's the angle going to be? +How are you working it out? +Erm be three sixty divided by eight. +Okay. +What does that come to? +Erm about +About . +Erm yeah . +Use your calculator . +So that's three sixty er +Could you do three sixty divided by four? +It's nine yeah so four and a half. +Okay, so forty five. +Okay. +You start from wherever you like. +start that way up. +Bit easier. +Good. +So you'll get all your right angles marked, each ninety, and then the halfway points between +Yeah. +each ninety. +This is I mean you wouldn't do this in an exam, you wouldn't draw one and work how you draw it, but by doing it now erm +you get to know a regular figure. +You get to know sort of how to construct one. +I mean now if i said, Make me a a figure that's got ten equal sides, you could do it couldn't you? +Yeah. +Or twenty. +So you could construct those. +And then join the join these points up to the centre. +Get that out of your way. +So you'll be able to see. +Well you know what the angle's going to be at the centre already don't you without +Yeah. +without measuring, cos it because of the way you constructed it. +It's got to be forty five. +So we can then when we've drawn that,find out what the other angles are,and try and work out what will always be true and what will depend on which angle you choose. +If we draw a join a few of those up through the centre, just so we can mark the angle. +So you can join any two opposite corners and it'll go through the centre . +Yeah. +Erm +In fact you might as well do the last one as well. +So what angle do you know absolutely definitely without thinking about it ? +. +And that is what? +Forty five. +That's forty five. +That's your three sixty divided by eight. +Okay. +. +And you've got lots of lots of triangles that are the same. +That's forty five right? +That's forty five. +It looks forty five. +Definitely. +Yeah. +Erm how can you tell it's forty five? +Well +I mean is there any way you could +It's erm +prove it? +I mean you could measure it maybe and say +Yeah. +Okay it comes to forty five. +You could draw lots of these figures. +You did another one sixty, and it came to sixty. +Yeah. +Well it'd be for the this angle if you extended it so it'd be eight divided by the three sixty isn't it? +Erm +Three sixty divided by eight. +It looks it looks as if it is. +I'm not +Yeah. +disputing if it whether it is or it isn't, but how can we show that it is? +How can we say , +Erm +Well it always will be? +Oh right erm +Think about what sort of things add up to one eighty. +Yeah it'll be all all the angles on this line. +Okay. +Erm +Let's say if we marked This is forty five degrees. +Yeah. +Okay. +What about these two angles, what do we know about them? +Oh right they've got to add up to a hundred and eighty +Right. +right. +They're both the same angle for a start, because we've got an isosceles triangle, and forty five plus two X must add up to a hundred and eighty. +Yeah. +That one there is also X. +So here we've got this angle plus two X . +Yeah so the two X minus one eighty is +Okay. +the outer one. +It'll always be that one. +So this'll work for anything. +Now,what was the question? +What did they ask? +A size of the interior angle of the regular octagon. +What do they mean by the interior angle? +The angle between these two points. +Right. +And what should it be? +Erm A hundred and a hundred and thirty five. +Okay. +Right I see . +So you've got the right idea of dividing it by eight, but you needed to take it on a stage and see what the was. +Erm +like I divided +Yeah. +divi divided divided by eight then minus one eighty. +Mm. +That'd get that angle all the time. +Right. +Yeah. +It'll always work. +Now the other question they've got is,What is the angle between the two rectangles? +Well there's one rectangle and there's the other one at right angles to this one. +What's that angle going to be? +It looks like forty five. +Erm +It looks like forty five, and it's almost certainly going to be forty five, and we could probably work out some reason why it would be forty five. +Would it be erm a hundred and thirty five for the interior angle? +That's a right angle there, and +Yeah. +that's a right angle. +Carry on.. +Erm minus one eighty to get this angle. +To get this one, yeah. +And then the same +Yeah. +the other way round to get that one . +So if it was that one, if you could get take that one, it could be anywhere along the plane. +If you were at a right angle If it If it was two right ang er angle lines like that at right angles +Right. +So you do ninety degrees one one of your ninety degrees +Yeah. +off the off the one eighty . +Yeah. +Okay. +So are you happy with that, that you can if someone gives you someone says Draw er a figure, er a regular polygon with twelve sides, you kn you know how to construct one? +Yeah. +And by constructing it you learn its properties if you like. +This is that's that's the obvious one. +That's the +Yeah. +big thing. +That's always divide three sixty by N to give you the angle at the centre of the circle. +What about these two angles, what's the important point about those then? +Well add up to erm plus that would add up to n a hundred and eighty. +Plus that they add up to a hundred and eighty. +And . +And they're the same. +And they're . +isosceles yeah. +Right. +So once you know that, these two are the same you take that from one eighty,halve the answer and it'll give you these angles, and if you've got that ang if you've got these angles,then you can work out most things. +. +Any q any questions they give you based on that, you'll be able to do it. +Erm that way you'll have an understanding of it rather than just saying, Well this bit is always. +Would it work for a square? +Erm +Without drawing it, try and talk about a square. +What would happen? +Erm +How would you work out? +If you d Er just sort of talk it through. +Drawing a circle, what would you do? +Well you'd er mark off +Mhm. +every erm ninety degrees. +Okay. +And draw through the points. +You'd draw through the four points. +work if you d drew a diagonal +Okay. +the centre. +You know. +Erm Be ninety. +Ninety, ninety, ninety. +And these angles would be? +What would the angle +Erm +here be? +Forty five. +They'd be forty five . +Isosceles yeah. +So the interior angle. +Would be ninety. +Would be ninety. +Yeah. +And the exterior angle would also be +Would be forty five. +would also be ninety. +Oh yeah it would. +Yeah. +Right? +In a square . +I see it. +So it would work with a square. +Erm would it work with a triangle? +Erm three points the centre point. +Right. +So what would the angle at the centre be? +It'd be erm twelve. +Hundred and twenty degrees yeah . +Hundred and twenty. +Okay. +Yes but it wou cos if you had the centre point up to the top of these two that'd be hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty, hundred and twenty. +so if someone said like Do a a hundred-and-eighty-sided figure +Yeah. +it it'd just look like a circle. +But you could do it. +So you're happy with polygons? +Okay. +So that's one if it comes up again +Definitely . +No problem on that . +Yeah. +So you've obviously dropped a few marks on that. +Yeah. +Erm probably on this and on this one. +The big thing there is there's no rule in life that says you know if someone says Five them you must draw five centimetres. +Yeah. +This might have been five knots, five miles an hour, +Yeah. +decide well we'll have five inches. +Erm it is likely that it's not a linear scale anyway. +It's possibly the Beaufort Scale +Yeah. +which is a sort of logarithmic scale . +Yeah. +Erm so don't make don't make too many assumptions. +carry on with symmetry? +Yeah. +I got all of er for them more. +Okay. +So let's let's have a look at the others. +Now you tell me which ones you think were an absolute doddle. +A giveaway. +This was the ones here. +Mhm. +Measure the size of the angle compass. +Okay. +Did you +Erm protractor sorry. +did you use that or +No cos I didn't have it at the time when I did that. +Would it have been an advantage to use the ? +Erm well er yes I thought cos I'm just measuring the +Yeah. +It depends what you're used to. +When you get used +Aha. +to this one, you'll find it so much easier. +Yeah. +Erm it's a bit off-putting at the start because it's got the two scales on. +Yeah. +Make sure you're reading the right one all the time. +Okay. +So no problem there. +You think you got Did you did you see which ones you got full marks on? +Erm yeah. +I didn't do this I d I didn't quite finish this one cos we only had erm one and a half hour to do the two-hour paper like. +Okay. +And there were how many marks on that then? +Erm erm eleven marks like. +Mm. +Mm. +So at the start of the paper,have a quick whiz through, see where the marks are, +Do them first, yeah. +and think, Well I'm going to Not necessarily do them first. +I mean you can whi you could go through and you can pick up lots of ones and twos that build up. +You're probably going to do them anyway, and they're good to get you into it. +So you're thinking, Oh this hasn't been an exam, these are dead easy, to just play yourself in. +Erm but don't like the +Mm. +ones the or others, if you're getting stuck on them, don't miss something like this that you could do and get full marks. +Yeah. +Er you know makes a big difference to your final grade doesn't it? +Right. +Any problems with these? +Erm no. +They they they were they were straightforward, just +Okay. +How did you do this one? +Erm I drew a I drew a erm Venn diagram. +Right. +Put my twenty one in the Whimby circle or Whitby circle, and the thirteen in the erm Scarborough circle. +Put X in the middle, and twenty one minus X . +Okay. +Just just show me how you did that one. +So a trip to Whitby and a trip to Scarborough. +You've got thirty pupils interested in one or both trips. +Right. +Twenty one interested +. +in the Whitby and thirteen interested in the one to Scarborough. +So there's an X in the middle. +How many interested in both of these trips? +Erm +Now okay. +You've got thirty down there, that's good,X in the middle, twenty one minus X, thirteen minus X . +Yeah. +Okay. +So +So when you get to that point you you've more or +Yeah. +less solved the problem haven't you. +If you can if you can handle simple equations, you get the answer. +Like most of these, the key +Mm. +is what should we call X. +Once you've +Yeah. +sorted that out then you follow your system. +Okay. +And does that does that work out? +How many would you have in here then? +Yes you'd have erm seventeen. +So you've got seventeen in there, seventeen in Whitby. +And eleven. +Okay. +And then erm four interested in the both trips so +What does that come to? +Erm erm it's twelve. +Oh right that's not right is it, no. +Erm +Mm. +Okay so we've got eleven and four is fifteen, and seventeen is thirty two. +It says there were thirty pupils. +Yeah. +Mm. +Now did you see your marks on this one? +Erm no. +I d I didn't er not on that one. +No that's okay. +So there's another one where probably you can pull up your marks quite easily . +Yeah. +Cos you know you know the method, you know what to do, it's just a question of sorting it out. +You know a little bit of extra thinking about it. +So one of the points that sort of comes up is you haven't used the thirty at all have you? +Now did they give you that and it's something you don't need or do you think maybe it's something you do need? +Er . +I just didn't know how to apply it . +Mm. +Okay. +Is this basic idea okay? +We've got X pupils interested in both, so we've got twenty one minus X in that and thirteen want to go to Scarborough, okay? +Thirteen minus X in there. +Now where did this come from? +Twenty one minus thirteen equals two X. +Well you've got your X there, you've got your two Xs there, so you subtract them and you've got +Mm. +and then take the halve. +Well th you've got an equation, okay. +Twenty one minus thirteen equals two X. +Now where did it where did it come from? +Show me where each term from so you could Thanks very much. +Cheers Dad. +Put away your er luggage. +. +Er cheers. +Scattered about . +Cheers. +Right. +Okay. +Thanks very much. +. +S erm so I had to subtract these two. +Mm. +Try and explain it in terms of say let's get all these kids out into the school yard, +Yeah. +and draw two big circles that intersect, +Yeah. +and say, Now we want to sort you out, see who's going where, so we can organize the coach now, and if you're interested in Scarborough go and stand in that circle,Whit Whitby there, interested in both then stand where the two circles intersect. +Yeah. +Okay. +Now take it from there. +What will you what how can you work out +Well erm just count how many's erm +I mean two teachers come back and one of them says, Well I've counted all those who are going to Whitby. +and the other one says, I've counted all those who are going to Scarborough, +Mhm. +and er nobody remembered to count the ones in the middle. +But we do know there were thirty pupils, which hasn't Has that appeared in your equation anywhere? +No not really. +No. +Now erm I still don't really understand where you got this from. +Erm +Why did you you do twenty one minus thirteen for a start? +Well I had the the twenty one and thirteen in the two groups so subtract those two and have twice the amount of X I thought I would have . +Erm you you seem to be equating the groups. +Okay. +We won't go into where you go that from cos I think it sounds a bit like sort of clutching at straws really. +Yeah. +I'm going to get an equation out of this. +You you've you've started off brilliantly. +You've got marked on you know exactly how many are going to Whitby,right, twenty one minus X, how many are going to both, and how many are going to Scarborough. +So what could you find out from that? +That ties up with this. +That ties up with . +You could er subtract the number going to Whitby from thirty. +You could. +Erm +You could do something a lot +And then +simpler. +A lot simpler. +How many pupils were there altogether? +There were thirty pupils so +And how many are there standing there in the playground? +There's thirty. +Right? +Right. +So an equation? +Yeah. +Count how many you've got in here. +We've got twenty one minus +So twenty one minus X plus thirteen minus X is equal to thirty. +And those in the middle as well. +But oh twenty one minus X plus X plus thirteen minus X is thirty . +Right. +So we just right that down, that's the total. +So we've got twenty one minus X those are the ones going to Whitby, and we've got X going to both, and we've got thirteen minus X, and that's the lot. +Now assume that this is assuming they all voted. +They all said, Yes we do want to go. +Yeah. +Erm it would have been better if they'd given you some information to say, They all voted for at least one +Yeah. +trip, or there were four who went nowhere. +Okay. +So. +Erm +What does that give you? +So it'd be erm thirty four minus two X plus X erm +Okay. +Er X +So how do you just I mean rather than do it in your head, especially in an exam, just what you're going to do, put the Add X to both sides say. +Erm +If you add X to minus X +. +Oh it's three yeah. +Right. +Let's have a little look. +Thirty four equals thirty. +Right. +If we just take it from there. +Thirty four minus X equals thirty. +Now as soon as you've got a minus X and you're trying to take it over to one side, and you're trying to bring the other one over, there's a good chance that something's going +to go wrong. +So why not just follow a nice simple system. +Thirty four minus X equals thirty. +Okay. +Add X to each side. +They go out. +Subtract thirty from both sides. +Thirty four minus thirty equals thirty minus thirty add X. +Okay. +So X is equal to? +Four. +Which is what you've got there. +And +Yeah. +Now does it add up? +It should do this time if your if Is this right? +We've got Let's check that. +got the same answer still. +Twenty one minus X If I give you some numbers to add up. +If I said twenty seven add thirty five add forty nine add seventeen, would you add them up like that? +Or might you put them one under another? +Yeah I'd probably put the numbers +Okay. +So +which are easier to +Yes. +fit ea slip easier. +Twenty one minus X plus X plus thirteen minus X. +Tot those up. +Plus X and a minus X go out. +That gives minus X. +Thirty four equals thirty. +Erm there may be a simpler way of doing it. +Now is this right? +Cos we're still getting X equals four. +Add the X to each side,take the thirty off each side we've got X equals four. +So what's going wrong here? +Seventeen and Ah. +Oh sorry nine yeah. +Nine yeah. +Because that comes to because that comes to nine.. +Yeah that's right. +And that comes to +. +that comes to thirty. +Okay. +So it does come to thirty. +Erm the way you were doing it will sometimes give the right answer but the easiest way +Yeah. +is to make sure every box is marked in there. +Let's do a slightly more complicated version. +Erm scribble on here. +Now let's sort this out. +Erm let's see Okay. +Let's see if those erm Right. +This time Let's take that off. +This time there are twenty nine in the class. +So you've got twenty nine students in the class and fifteen want to go to Whitby,and eight want to go to Scarborough,and three little piggies want to stay at home. +Three of them don't want to go anywhere. +Twenty nine in the class so what I'd like to know is erm draw the Venn diagram and find out the numbers of students in every section of the diagram. +And then if you can do that you can do any problem of this sort can't you? +Yeah I suppose so. +three. +Right. +Okay. +So where are you going to start? +Yeah but this Right. +That doesn't add up to twenty nine, does it? +It doesn't add up to twenty nine . +Eleven. +Erm +Twenty six. +Twenty six. +Okay. +Well spotted. +I probably mean nineteen or something. +Let's have a look. +Erm Erm Okay. +Seven seven don't want to go anywhere. +Right. +Seven don't want to go anywhere. +Right. +Okay. +That's great. +Erm that's +So you've got the various sections of the diagram. +You've got the Whitby lot, the Whitby and Scarborough, Scarborough and the don't want to go anywhere. +When when you when you add them up just if you just put them under each other, it makes it very easy. +So keep the numbers +That goes there. +that's it keep the numbers under the numbers and the Xs under the Xs. +Okay it's twenty nine right. +So an X plus er +So X equals one. +Okay. +What will that give us? +That's +Fourteen and seven is twenty one. +Fourteen +that was sent to me by the the people who want the stuff. +So +Oh right yeah. +. +Okay what does that come to? +Er twenty twenty nine +Twenty nine. +Now you might think, Erm oh a bit finickity saying do it this way, but it's a good system. +Erm also when you're when you're adding up if you get this fifteen minus X, right, eight minus X and you're putting +You just cross those. +the numbers underneath each other and the Xs underneath each other, plus X, and then the plus sign +X. +well that goes with the numbers. +Yeah? +Then when you add them up +You don't get confused. +So I can just +Mm. +take these two off. +Because there are +Mm. +so many, it's very very easy to do. +Yeah. +Lots of people'll finish up with, Oh that's a three X and they'll put plus three. +Mhm. +And this way it's more obvious what's going on. +There's going to be a minus X left over there, and then you can add those up. +Thirty minus X equals, how many were there, twenty nine. +And it more or less does itself. +Yeah. +So as I said, if I give you a list of numbers, say two- or three- digit numbers +Yeah. +in a long line,horizontally, you'd think, Oh I'd like to put these vertically +Yeah. +and do a nice little adding up on it. +So why not do it with Xs, because there's more chance of an error. +Now why it's a good idea to do it that way +So I don't in me head like and mixed up. +Again in an exam, there's more chance that you make a little slip, because there's little bit of extra edge. +nerves like. +A similar one. +Erm this time everyone's at Wembley and you're asking people,Right, if you draw this time we draw three big circles in the middle of Wembley,okay,and ask people to come and say which football team they think is a good one. +So we've got Liverpool, Everton and Tranmere Rovers. +So they say The instructions to the crowd are, If you think Liverpool is a a good football team, stand anywhere in that circle, Everton in that circle, Tranmere Rovers, stand in this one. +And we get something like this. +Erm and let's say there are a few a few awkward ones here er who don't think any of them +Yeah. +are a good team. +So those who think Liverpool is a good one,standing in in that circle, we've got say twelve thousand. +Okay. +In the Everton circle we've got say fourteen thousand. +And in the Tranmere circle we've got erm twenty thousand say. +Okay. +And we've got thirty thirty thousand people there altogether. +Now so I want to know the sort of the numbers in all the boxes. +Now +Right. +talk about it a bit before you start it. +Erm is it similar to the problem you've done? +Is it harder? +Is it much harder? +Well it's just erm it's like doing three of the previous ones isn't it like? +Yeah. +How are you going to sort that out? +Erm well I'll start off labelling these W X Y Z. +Right. +And er label this. +That's . +So as you're labelling it, what do you think of the problem? +Erm it's er +Do you think it's easy or very much harder than the last one or +just er pretty difficult eh. +No. +You're not going to be able to just look at it and write down something equals two X are you . +No. +You've got to really work out what's what. +Right. +Okay. +So you've labelled your diagram and you this one is that minus W minus Y minus X so on. +Erm it's a bit a bit awkward-looking isn't it? +Yeah just a bit. +Could you have labelled it in a way that would sort of help yourself more? +Make it a bit simpler. +those three added together, so W plus X plus Y plus plus the er the rest of E equal fourteen thousand. +Yeah. +Okay. +So what's your next step from there? +Oh right, I write it down on the paper. +So erm +Okay. +And how many equations are you going to get do you think? +Erm . +About. +About. +Okay. +All right. +Hundreds. +About hundreds. +Erm +No erm +Well okay let's look at it another way. +How many equations would you l would you like? +Mm about one. +Just one or two. +Erm If I gave you a problem about sort of prices of apples and pears +I suppose it no I suppose erm two W plus two three Y plus X plus Z +Mm. +If I said erm, Ten pears plus six apples costs two pound forty, +Yeah. +how much does one apple cost? what would you say to that? +You can't really do it really. +Why not? +Cos you've got two unknowns. +And? +And only one equation. +Right. +So that give you any ideas about this . +You got to have two two equations. +Two equations. +How many unknowns have we got? +Erm. +Three four five. +No. +That the I've got I I know these. +You know those. +I've got four unknowns there. +So you've got four unknowns, so you're going to need +Four equations right? +Does that sound a bit daunting? +Yeah. +Well so four simultaneous equations. +Mhm. +And they won but they won't be difficult cos they're all linear. +Yeah. +They're all there're no X squareds or W squareds or anything else in. +. +But you can do them. +So with with that, you know how much the total comes to, thirty thousand. +Right. +So I could put Oh aye yeah, W plus e Y plus X plus E equals fourteen thousand. +Mm. +And erm . +Have you used Say in the first one, +Yeah. +Er +you didn't use that. +So can you use can you think of an equation that involves that? +The total people. +Well tell me tell from your diagram, what's the total? +Thirty thousand that are there. +Right, but that okay ? +Oh just these added up? +Okay. +So don't forget the one thousand who don't think any of them are a good team, add all those up and that will give you a fourth equation. +Yeah. +And all you need to do then is to find one of these in terms of the others and substitute in, and it'll come out fairly easily. +Now you can choose these erm slightly differently. +For example you've got lots of got lots of minuses in. +What you could have done say was this one here that's marked E doesn't have to be all of those who supported Everton, it could be just that bit. +Yeah. +Right. +And you can an expression for it then in terms of that. +But there's no reason why you stop at three. +It could have been twenty five different variables +Yeah. +there are in real problems. +Erm With two it's not too difficult. +I mean sometimes you can almost just try an intelligent guess and maybe +Yeah. +about the third guess you try you get the right answer. +With that, there's not much chance . +No. +Okay. +Erm so you need to develop a system that's going to always give you a method and is always making the work easier for you and not getting you lost. +Okay. +So that's enough I think +Mm. +on that to sort of show you the power of the system we were just using to erm The obvious thing to do is to label every area of the diagram, and don't forget they do sometimes say, Seven were not interested in +Yeah. +in anything. +Label every area and then use what they give you about the total number. +The total was thirty pupils,add all that lot up equals thirty. +And when you were doing these with lots of you've got now got W X Y and Z in,when you're adding up if you lay them out like that +Right yeah. +with the Ws under the Ws it's you'll find that those horrible looking equations will simplify quite nicely cos there'll be a plus W and a minus W. +I see yeah. +And you'll get things that you know you'll get an equation just in X then . +So it'll be erm so fourteen thousand minus W minus Y minus X +Mhm. +and the next one then twelve thousand minus W +Mm. +minus Y, then +Yeah. +miss that gap plus Z +That's it. +Exactly. +And then that one +Right, you've got it. +two thousand plus +Yeah. +Y and X and Z. +So although it looks like, Ooh this is horrible, four equations four unknowns, I'll be here all night +And then +it's not cos you're just . +I've got +You're eliminating one at a time. +Yeah. +Once you've got that fourth equation in from all this lot adds up to the total, and that's the one that you seem to be forgetting, that's the one you've got to try and remember. +Okay? +So shouldn't be any problem on those. +This one er I wasn't too sure either. +Mm looks like geometry to me. +Mm yeah yeah. +So A B is parallel to D C. +Calculate the values of erm write down possible Okay. +Erm it's geometry. +That's the answer to that, +Yeah. +basically. +It's something that I usually say, Leave till the last. +It is a Did you spend much time on that? +No I j just had a l er +Good. +er an attempt and then I thought, No I'm not +Good. +gonna It's a waste of time . +It's it's it's the sort of thing that I would always recommend +And there's only about three marks for it anyway so. +Exactly. +Leave your attempt till the end. +So rather than you going well on this nice question, and you could you could have done it and picked up +Yeah. +another sort of six marks or maybe eight marks for the the end bit of the question, erm you'd spent a bit of time on this. +Anything to do with geometry unless you've had a lot of practice and you're very good at it, you can finish up wasting time. +Yeah. +So I would say, Have a go but leave it till last, when you when you've done everything else and maybe you when you've just checked through to see if the others are okay. +So let's have a a little look here. +Political party making election promises. +Erm was that one alright? +Yeah. +That wasn't too bad. +Eight percent every year. +a hundred and seventy five billion. +Mhm. +Erm put it over a hundred times the eight. +Okay. +And then you add that onto that. +And the next +Right. +year you get +Now. +Okay. +Erm Mm, yeah that's good. +And did you do it that way, you worked out the percentage and added it on? +Yeah. +Added it on after +Right. +What's Start off with a hundred pound +Yeah. +and add twenty percent on. +Yeah. +What's the final amount ? +Hundred and twenty. +Okay. +Start off with a hundred pounds and add thirty five percent on. +So a hundred and thirty five pounds yeah. +Okay. +Start off with erm two hundred and add thirty five percent on. +What's your final answer ? +Erm two Two hundred +Okay. +and seventy. +So how are you working it out? +It's erm two hundred over a hundred +Two hundred and then work out thirty five over a hundred of that, +Er +work out what that comes to, which is seventy, and then add your two hundred on. +Okay. +Well if we do something like what we finish up with is thirty five percent of two hundred of two hundred okay, plus a hundred percent isn't it? +Yeah. +Of two hundred. +So what does that come to? +A hundred and thirty five percent. +Oh I see yeah. +Okay. +. +So if you want to So it's if you when especially as you're going to do it on your calculator anyway, +. +what would you multiply to get the answer straight off? +What would you multiply that two hundred by? +One three five and then percentage. +One point +Three oh three five . +three five. +Yeah, or a hundred and thirty five percent as you said. +Yeah. +Erm if you find you've got a calculator without a percentage key, and some of them haven't, especially +Yeah. +some of the scientific ones, +mine's got one. +erm you can just do that . +. +So if I wanted to find out erm Let's do that one with the the N H S, and this time I want to know how much it's going to be It starts off at a hundred pounds. +Yeah. +A hundred billion. +Okay, just call it a hundred. +And we increase it by ten perc Well let's say we increase it by It's not out money is it, so let's really spend it and increase it by fifty percent every year. +Yeah. +What would you multiply that by, that hundred? +One point five. +Okay. +So do that try that on your calculator. +So what did you get? +hundred and fifty pound. +Right. +So while that's still in, times one point five again. +. +Well you've still got your one fifty in, so times one point five. +So two hundred and twenty five right. +And leaving that in, times one point five. +That's three hundred and thirty seven point five. +So you can see how they as if they ask you to do it over three years or five years or something +You just keep on doing that yeah. +you don't you're not doing several operations and putting some in memory and bringing it back and giving yourself lots of chances of making mistakes. +No. +It's just multiply it by that constant thing each time. +And with most with a lot of calculators I mean you Don't try it unless you really know your calculator and know how it works, you can just keep pressing equals, +Yeah. +and it does the last thing you've done times the +Yeah. +say do it once and say we want six years, put equals equals equals +Yeah. +more times. +Erm if you're going to use =thing something like that in the exam I mean there's no reason why you shouldn't use that multiplying it by one point whatever the percentage is. +Yeah. +What would you have multiplied it by if it was erm the eight percent? +One point eight. +One point Well what would you +Oh ze oh zero eight, yeah sorry zero eight . +Yeah, okay. +That's the only thing to watch, that. +Yeah cos that'd be +Eigh eighty percent +that'd be eighty percent yeah. +eighty percent is one point eight but eight percent, okay seven percent one point O seven. +That's the only snag with that, that you you can get the wrong But it's very much way of doing it . +Yeah. +Okay. +Solve the equation. +That's pretty straightforward that. +Expand that. +You can do that. +Yeah. +so much for its call-out fixed charge plus the time. +That's okay. +Yeah. +Yeah? +And then working backwards. +It costs +Yeah. +sixty five pound +And then just er just changing the subject there like. +Right. +Now if we put that on there. +Erm I dunno this is somebody else's paper so This is before I had a I worked it out as I I th I thought it'd work out a three- four-five triangle. +Mm. +Did you work out it was a ninety degrees? +Erm yeah well I I +Why? +I realized that cos +Why? +Cos it looked it? +No cos erm the here you've got this in a semicircle, +Right. +and if it's touching +Okay. +the top it's always ninety degrees . +Did you say that on the paper? +Erm I just put a little arrow with ninety degrees in the semicircle . +Mm. +Cos it looked it. +Erm wh what they're looking for in this answer is erm Because it's the angle in the semicircle angle B is ninety degrees. +Yeah. +And then carry on and do the other bit. +Erm you know you can look at that or you can put a protractor on it and +Mm. +think Well that's ninety, but you need to say that it is ninety because it's the angle in there. +Yeah. +Okay. +Right. +So you'd probably get minimum marks for that . +three marks for that anyway. +Mhm. +What did you think of this? +I looked at it and I er panicked. +Then I looked at it again and I realized that it wasn't too hard. +Mm. +I mean I got er the only th part erm I did mess up a bit was the the part here. +Mm. +Cos I got this the wrong way round. +But other than that I got the right. +Right. +Now this this what I'd like you to do,is read it out but only read the absolute bare bones of it. +We don't want to hear anything about Janet having trouble with her bike and Janet a powerful young woman or riding the race of her life , or any don't want +Yeah. +any of that. +It's just rubbish. +When you when you're reading this through, you're having a quick skim through, you can can you can cross out, you can sort of totally obliterate +Yeah. +what you don't want to know because it's One of the problems here is there's so much noise. +Yeah. +There's so much random stuff that you don't just details irrelevant . +yeah. +You don't want to know that she was wearing odd socks and one of them was green, it's +Mhm. +nothing to do with drawing the graph of distance against time. +So what are the important points in that ? +That they set off neck and neck. +Okay set off neck and neck. +Right. +Alright. +Then Janet took the lead then overtaken ten seconds later. +Mhm. +Then built up a lead of fifty metres. +Right. +And so she behind all the way but caught up with her a few metres +Before the end. +before the end. +Oh just before the finish, fifty metres from the finishing line. +And then Janet overtook her just before the finishing line. +Right. +So all this about the North Rose Trophy and it's just When you see You f you said you felt like panicking. +Yeah. +You're in middle of an exam, you're trying to do everything very quickly, and there's a great long screed of text +Mm. +to plough your way through. +Erm so get sort of practise reading it so you can cut out the irrelevant stuff. +And a good thing as I say is to just erm highlight the stuff that you want if you've +Yeah. +got a highlighter, or maybe underline it, and maybe even cross out. +Yeah. +Because you rea you're going to read this about three or four times aren't you? +Yeah. +before you understand what on earth is going on here. +They started off neck and neck. +They started off together. +Okay. +This one goes in the lead and then stops and then the other one goes in the lead and then she puts a spurt on and catches up. +You'll read that sort of round and round a few times before you get it straight in your head what's +Yeah. +going on, and you don't need all this garbage in it as well. +So your first time through you can cut some of that stuff out, and then you've got it. +You've got the bones of the problem. +Then you can work with it. +Erm so do you think you got it sorted out roughly? +Even I mean you didn't quite get it sorted out in the exam but +No. +did you think that you know what you've done wrong now, +Yeah. +and how to do it? +Yeah. +There's there is often something on distance time graphs and also quite often it's like that. +Now I think that's not a maths question. +No. +No. +That's an English question. +Yeah. +I mean if you I don't know if you know of anyone whose standard of English is quite poor +No. +but their maths are okay. +Mm. +Now that's quite an unfair question. +Cos if they can't read through a lot of text and sort it out they haven't got much chance . +No. +They just sit there mesmerized for half an hour and then +Right time's up. +Okay. +So you're alright on trine time train +Yeah. +train timetables. +Mm? +You just draw a line of best fit you know line of best fit through erm all the points well +Okay. +the one that goes nearest the majority of points. +One goes nearest the majority of points. +Okay. +So if you've got a load of points all here +Mm. +and there's one stray off here, you'd go through that way, the line of best fit. +Ignore any strays. +Mm. +Okay. +How about the gradient of the line? +That's like the average what is it it's a Distance so it's the average speed that's been travelled throughout the journeys. +Mm. +Erm +the gradient of a line okay, there's a there's a bit of graph paper. +Okay X is and there's a line. +What's its gradient? +Erm the change in the Y +Okay it +so change in the +It it's so measure measure the gradient of that and tell me what it is. +I'll make it so they're nice and e even. +Now you said you'd make it even. +Yeah. +What did you mean by that? +Oh t I had two point nine by three +Mm. +by seven point nine. +Okay. +The one you made nice and easy was the nice and even was the Y. +Yeah. +Which one are you going to divide by? +The Y, so change in Y over change in X so +Mm. +You're going to divide by the X . +Oh yeah, best off doing the Yeah. +It doesn't matter cos you can . +. +Better get rid of that line yeah. +Probably pencil . +Okay. +And what does that come to roughly ? +It's about erm two point eight. +Right. +Two point eight +Seven centimetre. +So that's erm +. +. +What's what's the units? +I don't know it's just whatever the +Well what have you done? +What did you do? +Oh I cha I divided Y over +You divided +Divided the change in Y +So many millimetres +Yeah. +by another number of millimetres +Oh right, oh millimetres that's it yeah . +and what's the answer? +Erm millimetres . +Millimetres divided by millimetres is what ? +Yeah it's millimetres square. +Millimetres erm the other one. +What is it? +Erm What's X divided by X? +One. +Er one X. +Just X. +Just one. +It's just millimetres . +No it's just one. +It's not millimetres, it's nothing. +It's just a number. +So that's just millimetres then yeah . +It's millimetres divided by milli No, it's not millimetres. +No this . +The answer is not in millimetres. +The answer is just a number. +Oh right. +It's a ratio of one length to another. +Okay? +Yeah. +Find the ratio of that height to that length. +Mm. +Okay. +And let's say it's a third. +Mm. +It's not a third of metre, a third of a millimetre or a third of a kilometre, it's just a third, the ratio of that length to that one. +Okay? +I see. +So the ratio of that length to that one is point four. +But the gradient the gradient of the hill erm you could express it in terms of an angle couldn't you? +Yeah. +If I say, Is that hill very steep? +Ooh yes, about forty degrees. +So if we look at this +Twenty five. +Twenty five. +Find the tan of twenty five degrees. +It won't be in centimetres or millimetres, it'll just be a number . +Two point four six. +Right. +Six three . +That's a much more accurate way of finding the gradient. +. +Just find the tan of the angle. +You don't have to measure. +You've got two measurements here. +This two point eight isn't accurate. +No. +It's what, plus or minus point one almost. +Yeah. +I mean point one of a millimetre's not much. +You could be almost well you could at least plus or minus point O five. +Yeah. +Right. +Which is a big percentage that you're And both of these could be out. +One could +Yeah. +be too big and one could be too small, which would make a big difference. +But you can measure the angle pretty accurately on that to s to within say half a degree and have its tan. +Right yeah . +Erm because there's your angle,there's that, and this is opposite over adjacent. +So the gradient it's a ratio it's not no units to it, not metres millimetres or anything else, and it's the tan of the angle. +So the gradient gives you a mea If I gave you the gradient, if I said the gradient is one, what would the angle be? +Erm +How would you find the angle? +Just one and then do the tan backwards. +Okay tan to the minus one . +five. +So there's a that's that's what gradient means, the tie-up between them. +It's not In some cases like erm the diagram you were doing about the two girls running,erm then the distance against time gradient will give you speed, give you velocity. +We've done the Roses,you're okay on the symmetry, you know about that now. +Yeah. +I mean if if it hadn't got a ,there's noise in the problem there's +Yeah. +irrelevant stuff. +If you if you you strip it down to the +Actually I didn't know how to do the arc . +I wasn't sure how to do that. +Okay. +But you know now. +Erm +That was pretty st that the height of just a bit of +It's a bit of algy and a bit of pythagoras +Yeah. +in together. +And the area. +What is how about that one? +What is the square root of six point four by ten to the ten to the five? +Well erm eight hundred but when I did it wrote it into normal terms like six point sixty four with one two three four noughts +Mm. +and then I square rooted it. +Mm. +Erm yeah, I square rooted it. +Okay. +Yeah that's a good way to do it. +Mm slightly more easier for you is just multiply it by one of those tens so you've got sixty four by ten to the four. +The square root of sixty then take the square root of +Eight. +The square root of the sixty four is eight, the square root of the ten to the four ten squared. +Oh right yeah. +Yeah. +Erm okay. +It's a good way to do it to if you think, Oh I can't really handle this going on here, put all your noughts on and then you can work out what they come to. +Okay. +Erm weather stations near the north pole. +we should start ringing alarms bells a little bit. +So what did you do for this one? +Right I measured well it's seven kilometres apart so I measured the distance between them. +Ah. +Mm? +Erm in centimetres or millimetres . +And it came to five. +It wasn't seven centimetres eh ? +No so it's +And it should have been shouldn't it? +fifty millimetres. +Right. +Okay, so you worked out what the scale was. +Yeah. +And then what did you do? +Erm I so it was for one So seven kilometres is equal to fifty millimetres. +Mhm. +I did erm +Yeah. +So you +seven +work out your scale that comes to +So seven over five. +And then what did you do for this next bit? +It knows it's between four and three kilom kilometres away. +Yeah. +So er point seven one er is equal to one kilometre. +Mhm. +So work out the +Yeah. +So four kilometres so multiply point seven one by four. +Yeah. +You worked out what that would be +and then +on the one the scale and then what did you do ? +Yeah I worked out what this would be on the scale. +that's from T so I dr drew a line a cir a circumference . +A circle. +Right. +So I did round there. +Yeah. +and a smaller one round there. +Right. +So you work out +. +what the scale is so you can set your radius and draw your two circles and say, It's in there somewhere. +Yeah. +Okay. +That should get full marks. +Yeah. +Bit . +Mm. +Erm er that trig trigonometry there again. +Mhm. +And then er just work out the length of this and then the length of that and then subtract these two lengths. +So that's quite a nice question. +Erm Seven marks on that. +Okay. +Transformation. +You alright on the transformation? +Yeah. +Yeah. +You've been doing those alright haven't you . +. +Ah. +Mm. +How many of those can you get out of one of those eh? +Erm +How many mugs of water to fill the tank? +. +Okay. +So you cal calculate the volume. +Yeah. +That one's no problem. +Yeah. +You think, Right I've done that with me fish tank. +That one. +What did you do for that? +Erm I used the equation sheet which he wri wrote on the board. +Right. +Okay which would have been on the front of your paper . +Yeah but he we didn't have any +Right so as soon as you see that you think, +Ah volume of a cylinder, I know, whee! straight to the front. +Look at it and then erm measured it I did I d and then I redid this one and put it in the same scale, +Yeah. +and then erm the answer I got for this +Mm. +So +divided it by that. +you what did you you used centimetres here did you? +Yeah. +Right. +Good. +Because that thing you did with the fish tank has shown +Yeah. +you that you can't say, Well one centimetre is a hundredth of a metre so +No. +one cubic centimetre's going to be a hundredth of a cubic metre. +it's obvious. +It's not it might be obvious but it's not true. +Okay that that's the big thing they're looking for there. +Convert it to the same units, use the formula and then I mean that's a gift that isn't it? +Yeah. +Mm? +Six marks there for nothing really. +Imagine them all bringing their mugs to fill the tank . +Mm. +Now you've got to rework it again in cubic metres +Yeah. +and work out how many seconds. +There's nine marks on that +Yeah. +really a gift wasn't it? +Yeah +I mean it's a it would be a joy to do it as well cos you think, I know how to do these. +Yeah isn't this easy, this is relaxing. +Okay. +Erm I think you know there how to pick up quite a few +Quite a few more marks yeah. +quite a few marks without you learning anything +No. +that you don't know already. +Yeah? +Yeah +It's just sort of looking at 'em a bit. +Erm the geometry one that we didn't look at,you might be able to spot it in minutes, +Yeah. +you know seconds even. +You might be still on it twenty minutes later. +Yeah. +So keep it for the end and keep it for when you've not only done all the questions but had a quick check through to see have +Yeah. +you done something daft. +Yeah. +Cos that's where the marks are thrown away. +Not +Yeah. +not something you can't do but something you've done ten times before. +You just make a one silly mistake like. +And you just think you know you like you've put metres instead of centimetres on the +the hosepipe or something like that and you think, Oh that's not right, that you will spot . +Like when you write a letter and you read it through and you think, Ooh I've missed a word out here, +Mm. +or I've you know run two words in together or something. +So that few minutes at the end is important for picking up these extra marks you've been trying to throw away,okay, where you can do it, and the few minutes at the beginning is to look through and find that question wherever it was, that one on the last page. +Lot of marks going for it, dead ea And again it's a s it's a joy to do this sort isn't it. +Yeah. +Cos you can see where you're going all the way through, +Yeah. +you know that you know it it's nice +It's just like nice and easy. +and you feel really confident about it, you think, Wow this is piling up the marks . +So look for the good ones don't spend too much t There'll only be one little geometry thing +Yeah. +fiddling about with triangles and circles and stuff like that. +So have a go +And it's only about two or three five marks. +Exactly. +So have a go at it when you've done the others. +Okay. +Well I'd better get off. +another one to get to soon. +That's mine. +That's yours. +Right. +Practise with that protractor, +Yeah. +so that you get used +to it so that you prefer to use it to the other one. +Have have have both , but if you've got bearings +It easy to b better . +use that . +If someone gives you a polygon to draw +Yeah. +Use that cos it's not not fiddling +Yeah. +around twisting it. +I mean in the time is takes you to do a sketch you can draw accurately +Be easier to . +draw round it,dot dot dot,draw even if you then sketch it without using a straight line, if you just join up the dots freehand , +Yeah. +you get a very good sketch and you can see what's going on and you can see the angles. +. +That's your one. +Erm Next week. +What's happening about that? +Where are we ? +I'm on holiday then so er +You're on holiday. +Right. +Yeah. +Okay. +So is that for What about the week after that? +Erm no I think I've got about two weeks off. +Okay, so I'll see you erm +So we break up on Wednesday that's Friday Friday, So three Fridays. +Three Fridays. +Yeah.. +So I'll see you in about I'd better work out what the date is. +Erm +Can have a look on the calendar in there. +Okay. +And probably be an idea if you remind me sometime during that week when I'm due to see you. +Alright yeah I'll give you yeah . +Just give me a just give me a ring. +But er we'll we'll skip the next three then. +Alright yeah. +Okay. +I better remember my tape recorder. +Okay. +Erm I've found out when the exam is. +Yeah? +It's erm right at the end of the month of the rest of the exams. +Okay. +So erm Yeah it's well well at the end of the month. +So have you got what's what's the best + +Morning Mrs . +Good morning Doctor. +Well now, what can I do for you today? +I've been coming for sh three weeks now. +And I came to ask the doctor if I could get H R T. And she took my blood pressure and it was too high +She chased you. +so she didn't give me anything the first time, but she +Mhm. +The second time. +The second time, it was a different doctor again, and she gave me tablets and I can't remember the name. +It was I just took the last one on Saturday, and I then threw the +Aye. +The wee white ones, +Aye. +Right. +Brusc something +Aye. +So +Right. +Show us your muscles. +Let's see what you're doing to your poor old self. +I don't know why I think maybe the, the tablets helped, but erm I was saying I was kind of having second thoughts whether I was wanting to go on the H R T or +No. +No. +No chance. +No chance. +Not, not with your blood pressure up like that. +No er well she didn't say much, but she +Well, no chance I can tell you now. +Whenever er +Just get yourself down. +And I thought er and er I had wee tablets that you gave me a while ago,Brusdeximit +Mhm. +And I was wondering maybe if I'd be better going back on them. +Aye, you'd be safer a lot safer on them. +And they won't er they won't fight with your blood pressure. +Here just let your arm . +On second thought, it'd be . +Aye. +It's, it's amazing how many folk come up to see about it, and they, they decide eventually not to. +Doing fine. +You're fine but you'll need to stay on your wee tablets I'm afraid. +And er I think you can forget the H R T. +I will, I felt maybe er when I came up to see, oh I was having all these heavy sweatings. +Just was it was really +Mhm. +Mhm. +pain up sore back, so. +And +Falling to bits. +to bits . +then I had another I had another wee problem that I'd been, I had been to see, and it was Doctor I had been, and the doctor that I saw the last time er I had three big bruises on my back, and she +Mhm. +says I don't know what this is. +But this was a wee sort of lump that I had down at the bottom of my vagina. +Right. +I don't know whether you would call it a lump or not, I said to her it was like a wee spot. +Mhm. +So she, she says well I don't know what that is, she says. +So I'll send you to the hospital. +So I've to go on +Yeah. +Friday to see +Right. +Doctor . +Right. +Now have you got plenty of the wee tablets or are you finished? +No, I finished 'em. +Finished all that lot. +Right, Agnes. +Finished them on Saturday. +Mm That's how I was, I was saying had been at the hospital, come back and says no, my +No. +tablets are finished, I'd better go to the doc +No, you'd better. +You need to get that, need to keep that down because if you do go to the hospital, and they did decide to take that out, they would ne d they would check your blood pressure and they would chase you. +There's no way they would touch it at all. +So +It's no, I don't really know cos the doctor says she didn't know what it was either. +Doctor seen it first, she thought I had pulled a hair and it was kind of septic +Septic Aye. +and she gave me tablets, +Aye, that leaves +antibiotics. +leaves a wee cyst underneath the skin. +Is that what it would +Mhm. +be then? +Yeah, that's probably what it is. +It it's no really er giving me any +No. +Just, no. +much trouble or anything , but it was just the fact of it being there. +It's there. +It's there. +And it's always a worry when you don't know what's going on. +And the trouble is it can turn septic again, and put the whole thing sky high again. +But s what about your Dixevit Are you needing any more of them? +I haven't got them. +I've no I haven't +Nothing? +been taking them +Oh well. +for ages and ages. +Keep some in the house in case you do get a bad spell. +Because they're s they're safe. +Would it no be similar to kept taking Dixevit instead of the other ones Doctor ? +No. +No? +No, they wouldn't affect your +Wouldn't do anything +wouldn't affect your pressure. +No. +They wouldn't affect your pressure. +They're very they're good and they have very few side effects, this is the beauty +Aha. +of the Dixevit they keep the flushings down, +Aye. +and they don't affect your blood pressure. +Aye. +So, stick with them, if, if +you're having a bad time, use them. +If you don't leave them be. +Leave them be. +But keep on your wee white ones every morning, Agnes. +One at breakfast time, +Aye, er I +er +oh well I took them, took them regular, because +Aha. +you gave me only thirty, +Yes. +and that was enough. +That's right. +So +Well, we'll see you in a couple of months again. +Er will I have enough to keep me going,? +Er yeah. +You'll have enough to keep you going for a couple of months. +Could I get some ? +There we are now. +See how the boy takes Zantac Doctor , is there two strength of Zantac +Mhm. +And he's +Yeah. +getting the lesser one do you think? +Would it be advisable for him to get the higher one? +Er +He's +with the, with the bigger strength you only take one, they only allow you one a day. +Mhm. +He doesn't really, I think at the moment he takes one and er he doesn't sort of take them like +Mhm. +constantly or er when he gets the heartburn +Er that's +sort of thing +that's +he takes +Aye this is this is the very strong one. +Just . +Aye, just one of these a day. +When he needs them. +I was going to put the thing in there, but I thought I would ask first before you know. +He's still living with you at ? +Aha. +Hasn't run away and got married or anything? +No, not till the sixteenth of July. +And he's not running away he's getting . +Same thing. +Same thing. +peace and quiet, +What about your own family? +You still got them? +Yeah. +Oh well. +Yeah, they're still +Still keeping you +still keeping me out of mischief. +Still keeping +Still keeping me out of mischief. +Are they keeping you out of mischief? +Ah well . +Oh aye. +Oh aye. +Okay Agnes . +okay, +Right, +thanks very much, Doctor . +cheerio now. +Cheerio. + +Yes sir, what can I do for you ? +I was er I woke up Monday morning right, and I had that +and the Monklands on Tuesday, right? +Because, and they told m he t he told me to come and see +Aye. +my doctor in a couple of days to see how it was. +Ah, that's not ready for opening yet, Steven. +Did they give you any antibiotics? +. +Aye, he gave me, he gave me some tablets I don't know whether +What, what sort of stuff did they give you? +I don't know the name of actually. +That's it. +Erm +It was a wee capsule, brown capsule. +What brown? +Brown and brown and white? +Aye I think it was. +Ah, is it, is that penicillin? +Mhm. +Yeah. +There's a form penicillin in that. +What sometimes happens you s it sometimes comes up to a wee yellow head. +Aye. +And when it does that, you can put a needle in there and just all the stuff comes out all the +yellow stuff that's underneath. +How many of the er wee capsules have you got left Steven? +Oh, maybe about half the +About half the amount? +Aye. +About maybe about half. +Right. +take +See you do. +Is it four? +Or three a day or four a day. +Three or four a day. +four. +Er I would keep on with those right till they're finished and then come up towards the end of next week. +Let's have a look at it again. +Mhm. +It might be ready for opening, or it might just have dissolved away itself. +Aye. +Sometimes it dissolves away itself. +But occasionally that one it's sort of in between, it could come out +Aye. +to the surface. +Get a needle and . +Or it may dissolve away itself? +Yeah. +Or it might disappear itself, but don't put, don't go putting bandages on it. +Don't put +leave it alone. +And it will go either it will come up to the surface itself or it'll just disappear. +Mm. +It depen it depends on your own system but +it's come up a wee bit . +Aye and what happens is, it usually starts in at the corner of your finger +Aye. +and then it spreads down towards your knuckle. +Aye, well, that's +That's +what's happening. +It sometimes goes the, the colour as it, as it starts to heal up the, colour gets a wee bit lighter +Aye. +and ste starts to spread down towards your next knuckle. +Mm. +That's okay. +No terrible worry about that Steven. +Right. +That's okay. +And er +That's fine.. +. +See I've been getting a kind of rash on my face +Mhm. +Right. +even see it now, there. +Yeah. +You can see it quite clearly. +And you're +Can you? +getting it on your forehead +Aye. +as well. +Aye. +. +Aye. +see like, see like some kind of spots for the past few +Yeah. +months and it's it's annoying me . +Right. +I mean I got that one, see it? +Yes. +Aye. +And it's gone away yet, I mean that's been +there about three we about three weeks. +Right . +Now, once you've, once you've finished this penicillin stuff the hospital have given you, +Mm. +I want you to go onto this. +It's a tablet that you take, one in the morning and one before you go to bed at night. +Mhm. +And that's for your er for your skin. +And that'll give it a good help.. +So am I to take that with +Not while you're +the penicillin? +not while you're taking the penicillin. +Just finish the penicillin first? +Finish your penicillin first Steven and then +Mm. +Take that. +and then start on this stuff. +Is that for my skin? +This is for your skin. +Right. +Ah cos th m people won't my skin about . +Aye. +That's rubbish . +You know what I mean? +That's rubbish. +Don't listen to half of what they say . +And my, my granddad was telling me to see my eyes. +Mhm. +Mm. +Eyes. +Now I know I went to a sp a specialist and that I mean it just keeps on coming back you know, maybe I'll +That's right. +Aye. +just have to keep on . +Aye. +No. +That's part of the skin problem as well. +Is it? +Aye. +That's part of the skin problem. +Is it really? +Once you get started on this +It should? +it'll die away as well. +Oh, that's good cos . +No problem. +No terrible problem there, Steven. +But don't mix these with your penicillin. +Right. +Finish your penicillin first and then and then go +penicillin first. +on to that. +Right. +And that'll get it sorted and come back up +Aye I'll +I'll put appointment just in case you know +Mhm. +what I mean? +Yes. +For next week. +Aye. +ev even with your skin. +I mean don't be frightened to come back and see us about that +Aye. +because it can last for anything up to six months. +This spots +Aye. +on your skin. +So I mean +Aha. +y you might need a wee these tablets +Again. +maybe two or three times again. +And if you do, don't be frightened to come back. +Right. +Okay, Steven. +No bother. +Right. +We'll see how things are doing next week. +Right. +Right. +Thanks Doctor . +Right. +Cheerio now. +Cheerio. + +Well Mr , what can we do +for you today? +Busy today is it not? +we just don't believe it. +about an hour I've been out there. +Oh aye. +I can believe it. +Due a line today are you? +Yes Doctor. +I've been sitting here since two o'clock my two o'clock cup of coffee. +Not very funny Doctor. +I wasn't expecting you'd be that busy just now. +Oh. +Holidays. +Never come at holiday weekend. +Mhm. +Always the same, before the Christmas, before New Year. +It doesn't matter. +I mean you can go up on the rest of the week, but the day before the holiday and the day after the holiday the +Closed on Monday? +Aye. +Well you'll get a day off there eh? +Or do you? +Are you on call-out work? +No. +I've just got a big case full of paperwork to do when I get +There's no rest ? +Ah no. +Keeps me out of mischief. +I'll just be betting horses or chasing women or something like that. +Oh you'd better do the last one Doctor +it saves you money. +If you bet on horses or drink then it cost you money. +And that's not . +Oh I don't know. +I don't know. + +When you're ready what would be what things will we shall we start with? +Well erm sort of how how you how you became involved in the erm in the strike. +In the strike, are we starting off with this stuff? +Yes. +Not now? +Yes now. +Oh. +Well we started off and we were working for . +And we and then we had been working for him for about ten or eleven years on this contract that he had for us. +And erm his son came along to take over from him. +And he put a new table in the mill. +And erm being as he put a new table in the mill he thought we could work for thirty pound a week less, on this table. +And we could produce more slate on erm thirty pound a week less in wages. +Well none of the lads were prepared to take that on, cos we'd been on this contract with for the last eleven years. +And was quite happy and all the workers was happy until this son came along . +And that's what's got us fixed in all this trouble. +You said that you'd worked erm quite happily for er t t +Oh yeah everybody was happy. +Yeah. +Aha. +Can you give me some idea of erm h how you started up with him in the first place? +Well he bought this slate quarry to scrap it. +I believe he er didn't give much for the quarry. +But somebody put him on there was slate to be had, only a if you had a machine to clear. +And he started clearing to get this slate, and he got at the slate quite quick. +But we were working for him then for fourteen pound a week. +And make preparing the mill ready for the slate. +To ma make putting fixing new tables in and that. +And erm anyway we got more from the unemployment exchange that prepared to work for him for fourteen pound, when we could have a eighteen pound on the dole. +Four pound a week more on the dole, cos we were having elected earnings and tax rebates on the dole and it and it made it up to eighteen pound. +And we were working for for fourteen pound at that time. +I sup erm at that time was there a a a a lot of men who had work in the quarries +Well +on the dole? +Well everybody that was working for him had always worked in the quarries all their life, and they er they just been working for the slater company before the quarry shut down. +And that's the time they were put off work when the quarry, of the why the quarry shut it, they had too much expense on the electricity to pump the water from this from the mine. +That's why er the quarry shut. +Or the quarry would have carried on with this slate mine. +How many p people d di did he take on at that time then, when he first took over ? +There was about six to start with. +How did he select them? +Well he knew they were all slate quarry workers, and that's how he went on to them. +He knew they were all slate quarry workers and they were prepared to work the slate again. +Every one of them. +Were they were they men who had erm a l lot of expertise in in in the slate? +Yes all their lives you know they'd worked. +We've all worked in these slate mines since we left school. +I I left school before the war when I was fourteen, we all went in the slates. +Cos everybody was working in the slate then. +Hundreds of men working in the slates. +My fathers and grandfathers all worked in the slate, they seen nothing only slate. +And when the war broke out of course, everybody left the mines. +Cos there was more money else where. +We were working for, my father was er earning one pound sixteen shillings a week before the war. +When the war broke out that made a world of difference for everybody. +The wages stepped up. +I went into erm aer aerodrome you know be we were having working seven days a week and we were having seven pound a week. +A pound a day and we were millionaires weren't we? +Aye millionaires. +Only because the war broke out. +Yes. +And then from there, in nineteen forty three, I was called up. +And was going back to twelve and six a week after, to the forces. +And I wasn't long in this country they shoved me over, Normandy, on the landing in Normandy. +And all I got for that was a couple of tin medals, uh uh, aye dear Aye. +When you er when started up again, opened up the the quarry. +Yeah. +Can you tell me all the sort of work that you were al er engaged in? +Well to prepare the mill, we were erm concreting and or doing knocking all the old tables down and preparing get the er big saw table in, you know to diamond saw table in to cut the slate up. +Erm or any other little fork lift there which the quarry belonged then. +And was on to us, he only had four thousand five hundred that's all the money he had, that's all I've got four thousand five hundred. +And believe me in a couple of weeks after we got the slate for him. +We had a new fork lift, we had tools galore, everything was coming in. +There must be money in slate. +And in no time after that built a massive big bungalow for himself. +He had a brand new Mercs. +Every money was coming in everywhere. +From a poor man he didn't half step up. +Aye in no time, cos there must be money in slate Aye. +Mm. +Yes he stepped up, right diddly me. +And then his son they had a Mercs each, and he's built a new bungalow now in they've all got massive big places, it's fantastic the money they made out of it. +And this is what they ga ga done with the lads in the end. +Just shoved them off, put them on the dole,and there was some young lads that I I wasn't worried myself, cos I I'm in my sixties, but there was lads there with mortgages and kids. +He didn't think of them either eh. +There's lads of real trouble there, but there was lads you know young lads with kids and mortgages and and we had er he I'm sixty all your worries are over aren't they. +But there are young lads there. +What he didn't worry about them either he didn't care who who went, just that he we he had his own way. +W w when you were starting off aga when you were starting off with erm was there any sense in that you were all including him involved in a joint enterprise to g g g g get the quarry really being profitable? +Well what he said to us, if I go up we go up together, he said. +If I make money I I'll make you I can pay you as well, if I go up I mean if I go down, he said, I can go up or down as well , he said. +That's what he said, and he kept on saying he had only four thousand five hundred pounds or something, that's all the money he had, he was on about that all the time. +But he he didn't half make money cos he had nothing before that. +He had that coal business, but no money, he had no money there. +But that slate quarry put him on his feet all right. +W w w why do you think his approach t t to the extraction of slate was successful. +Where as the previous owners had erm had great problems with f fl fl flooding? +Well he worked the slates from outside you know. +They were all slate there, the old new there was slate there, but they weren't prepared to get the machines to clear it, at it. +Where as he bought these machines and cleared up the rubbish to get at the slate. +Cos the lads knew where the slates was, and it wasn't far from the surface. +There was plenty of slate there but he he just slate mines wouldn't pay t to get these machines, and course this grant story this had you know millions of pounds of grants for these machines and that. +We know he had fantastic grants, we know how much he had, you know when we went on this strike. +We got to know all the money he had from these grants to get all these machines and all these. +Every penny he was paying he was having grant for it from the government Aye. +Where you aw aw aw a a aware of that you were in a a b business that was succeeding when you were working for him? +Oh yes, we everybody knew of that of the slate we were making, you know cos erm we were making about two thousand duchess a day. +What +In twenty four fourteens and twenty t twenty two hours an this fantastic you know, the slate cos it was good slate there. +And there's no contract to start with, the first year or two there was no contract at all. +And we had terrible job getting a contract off him. +He wouldn't give a contract and he wanted us to work like on the, make plenty of slate but he wouldn't you know, he wasn't prepared, thee to pay. +But we did manage to get the contract from him after. +But he wasn't prepared to give a contract to start with. +Out of all the slate mines, of all the years that has gone I've always worked on a contract. +That's been the bo the system of these slate mines. +There was used t the work in the old days, there was used to be two underground and two in the mill, they used to be partners. +The the lads underground used to send the blocks up, and the lads in the mill used to make produce the slates out of them, and they were all partners these four. +And there was hundreds of contracts like that in the quarry, everybody was on their own for t thing, you know. +Not one big contract but everybody on their own little contracts. +Four four men in each contract, that's how they were. +That's how they carried it out in the old days, in every quarry. +But in this quarry now in when we were working for everybody was on the same bonus, you know they was they were all partners. +Everybody in the erm in the er on the slate face and everybody in the mill were partners, everybody. +Get the same wages not like the old days then, they were all individual partners then in four you know, in each partner work working. +When you came to get your your contract with er te te te and you were all in the same c contract, was that because you got together as a union, or whether you got t together as the worker? +Oh we were all together, and the union was behind us, you know the union was with us. +Even in that early day? +Oh yes, we had the union with us all the time, from the start you know. +Everybody paid the union then, aye everybody was a union man there. +But erm you know when we were on the strike if these lads wouldn't have gone back, there was couple of scabs went back into the quarry. +It's them that made it worse for the others, if everybody had a stayed up together, and and stayed out, we we everybody had the same troubles, money trouble. +Cos there was youngsters there who that stayed out with us, they had mortgages. +And these scabs that went back, well they're the ones that let us down. +St +D d d do you think you you you would have succeeded? +Oh yes, if everybody would have stayed out they would never had a scrap of slate made there, everybody would have stayed out and stayed out till the end, and not a scrap of slate would have been made there. +But these scabs went back and made slates, and there was erm two officials there, they they'd never made slate when we were working up there. +But when we went on strike they started making slate, so in a way they were scabs too, in these two officials, officials not touched a slate if they were er not making slate before, why should they make slate when we were on strike? +D d did they know how to s how to make slate? +Oh yeah, well they weren't good slaters as the, you know, but they did produce slate there, but they didn't they weren't good slaters the just that, well they make slate but. +If they wouldn't have made a scrap of slate it would have a world of difference to this strike. +Not a scrap of slate would have been made there, and he would have had to do something with us then. +But these scabs went back and that's what really ruined this strike. +Had you any had you any clue at all that they were going to go back? +Well yes we had you could see on some of them, they didn't want much to turn them on, you know there was two or three there and they they took some others with them of course then didn't they, you know. +If you get one or two that prepared to go the others w drop one by one back then wou that's how they went. +But there was two or three there, when the strike started you couldn't trust them, they were scabs from the start. +They weren't prepared to stay out. +Where they men who had been quarry men? +Well no they weren't really, they weren't they hadn't worked in the quarry like like us. +They only did they were new to the quarry really. +But they were on this bonus system you know, they were you know on the bonus but they weren't quarry men. +They didn they ne hadn't been working in a quarry all that long. +What sort of work had they erm been engaged in? +Well driving and for erm you know he had plant hire, he'd been driving for him and that. +That's what they had been doing before. +They hadn't been working on the slate face, they hadn't worked any slate, but they were doing all right on the tables, you know on the sawing the slate up for the others. +And then you had a couple of scabs, they were slaters, this is one or two of them, they went back. +And so with the help of these, they just managed to do a bit of slate, but if them had not gone back, I thinks this this strike would have turned the other way. +Stop 'em having any any slate at all, that's what we wanted to do. +You stop 'em from any s scrap of slate e . +C c can you gi give me some clue now a about w when the penny began to drop that trouble was going to g g going to start? +Well no when we started when the strike started in the mill, I told then, you know y I don't know what you are going to do with us, I said, but the way you are carrying on now you are going to bring trouble into this quarry, cos these lads aren't going to give in to you at all that quick, what you're trying to do, make them work for thirty pound a week less, so you better think it over now, I said, before it gets any worse. +But he wasn't prepared to do that, he just, he wasn't worried about us. +He'd put his mind to it that he wouldn't, you know this he had it in mind that we were going to work for this thirty pound a week less, take it or leave it. +He wasn't prepared to do anything else. +Wasn't prepared to to let us go on now that same wages as before. +How did i it come about that y you were placed in the situation that you were going to get thirty pounds a week less? +Well he s all he made a little contract out himself, you know that's what he did, after he he'd put these new tables in the mill. +He made a contract then out for us. +And we worked on this contract for two month, to try it out for him but we were thirty pound a week less, and we had over two hundred slates a day more, on the on this contract. +T we were thirty pound a week less. +But nobody was prepared for it, to take it and that's how it was. +What w was it about th the new tables that produced the situation? +Well these tables he bought, well I hadn't seen tables like that before, he bought them in Italy somewhere. +And they were sawing these slates in into blocks, you know sawing them square like into the size of the slate, they were quite handy. +But the time involved to saw them was too much. +The other table what we had before was better, was no much so much time involved, by the time you'd screw them round and turn 'em, to saw them into blocks there was a lot of time involved in it. +Cos we're loosing a lot on 'em. +But they were handy when you had them sawed, cos they were quicker for the slate, I said to er splitter they were quicker then to split 'em up. +But we found we were sawing a lot of stuff up, was no good for the slate making, you know it it's got to be good for slate making, a lot of veins and lots of muck in 'em. +But the tables were good then but erm too much time involved in them, in in sawing with in them. +That's what I found out. +W w where they w w once when they'd been installed or was it thought that it a mistake had been made in obviously a lot of cash had been spent on them but erm, was it considered a mis a waste of money or? +Well it was a waste well I'll tell you what it was really, he saw a lot of waste on the other tables going on the tip you know, there was a lot of waste going over. +Well these tables were doing away with a lot of waste. +Getting more slates not so much waste out of them, cos these tables were sawing er them into blocks. +There was no what we call, ends on on the slate, you know going over the tip, there was not so much waste with them there as the new tables. +Why is it that this machine c c could trim it on all sides? +Yeah we used to trim 'em with a hammer and chisel before +Yeah. +and there was a lot of waste, but these new tables did bring that, it was something for the company it was more than anything, you know cos we were on the bonus system. +Slate we wanted to produce we want, you know if there a lot a bit of waste going over the tip, we weren't so much worried bout the waste, cos we was on the bonus we were making the slates and that. +But he was worried more about the waste then then ours contract That's what he was cos there was a lot of waste on the old tables, and they make a bit more waste than on these new tables there. +Ha ha ha ha how did it come about that you were on you were on one side very firmly and the employers were on the other side very firmly and sides had been had been drawn up? +Well I don't think and nobody will turn this you know this he nobody would, he'd put his mind to something and there is nobody on earth that could turn him. +Nobody on earth could turn him to do er to er change his mind. +And behind him again there was his son-in-law, you know that only he's worse than . +Then the one that runs the quarry to us, he's well he's worse only he was behind it in a way, he had he was the one with the brains, he was the one that new how to get the men to work for nothing. +He was behind ee he had the brains, and was carrying it out for him, cos erm this erm I dunno if you know him eh, he runs this quarry to us up here. +Oh he's terrible there, he even had them he had young girls working for him up there, and they found out they were paying he was paying them too little and then he got caught up with 'em, and erm what he done after he charged for taking them up there in the morning and charged 'em for taking them down in the evening with a Land Rover. +So he had them both ways didn't he? +He's a terrible man that one. +Aye but he was behind the this cos they're all in the in the same boat you know, they're all families, family affair isn't it. +But they say the old man didn't have anything to do with it, but I dunno, he could have had something to do with it, I dunno. +I I dunno there +Can you give some idea of how it came about that you in fact decided strike? +When we started well we were in trouble in York When we at then we were going on the go slow system you know, we didn't produce much slate we were on the go work to rule. +We let this carry that out for a month or so, and he was very annoyed about it. +And then erm the lads in both they had decided they were gonna go on the go slow, but they were told if you go go on the on the go slow system, you're gonna go home, he said, I'm not prepared to carry on with that, he said, the manager there, that's brother that is. +When a they were sent home from we went home from this quarry then, and the everybody went home so the the were forty of us in altogether. +Everybody went home an, we were all on picket line after. +Have you got any idea of w what they thought then of the fact that you were all acting, the three quarries, were acting as erm one body? +Well we were all union members, and everybody wanted to be together, if you are if you are in the union well we had to stuck together an the the more we stayed together the stronger we are, to keep out if we can stay out. +That's what we always thinking of ain't it. +And it was last August, last August Bank Holiday this was started, just before the Bank Holiday weekend when i cos we were all on that gates, Bank Holiday weeks, stopping all the traffic going in there Yea That's how the know is, maybe if we'd a gone back then and,yo you know, if he, he offered us to go back then about September. +Yeah to go back to work on this Thursday but we didn't go an all we should have gone then. +And tried to get some settlement, but I don't believe it are giving us any settlement cos he wasn't prepared to do anything like that. +And I know he had, you know he was stubborn, he wouldn't give in, nobody would he give in to nobody then. +He was stupid, stubborn that's what he was. +When you first erm when you first came out on strike. +Did you have any idea how long you would be out +Well everybody thought we'd be out for a week or so, but we were out for a month or er more when these scabs started going back. +Well I knew then it was gonna finish off, you know. +If more would have gone back then the strike would have come to an end quicker cos, I thought more would have gone back then, but all the lads in they stayed out and nobody went in to work. +When the others went back to work, how did you manage to stop anyone else from going back to work? +Well all th all these lads that have gone back, they were having a hell of a life in the town of course. +If they went for a drink everybody was calling them scabs and if they went anywhere then, some some had their cars sprayed with paint and oh they had everything done, they were all against them. +And the still now. +The they were scabs then and the scabs now, and they'll always be scabs all their lives now. +They will be called scabs wherever they go. +Er even e even n now they are marked men yes? +Yes they'd like if they were in South Wales, in South Wales you know if your grandfather was a scab, you'd be a scab wouldn't you, they carry it out in generations there. +And I believe, in this it's brought a lot of thing in this town there small town like this. +Cos these lads now that have gone back, and they were scabs then and they'll scabs they will be all their lives now. +Everybody will be looking at them as scabs, wherever they go. +No matter what they do they'll always be scabs. +No, and as for and I dunno. +I suppose they've shot better men than 'em Aye.. +Yes +Could be. +I couldn't have shot any worse I don't think so I don't know what'll happen. +Well I'm not worried cos I'm over sixty there, but these lads, I'm worried about these lads, that have mortgages and children to rear up they had lots of worries, and they still have. +But these quarry owners they're not worried about them. +They just worried about themselves +Mm is it rather on the ye yo yo you said earlier on that er the old s s system of striking bargains was on a individual basis? +Yes. +on, on a team of or a contract of four men. +So there's obviously a tradition of people of the quarry men and the quarry owners talking to each other. +Yeah. +Was the fact that there was no talking going on, completely surprising from the point of view of the tradition of bargaining? +Yeah well in the old days, you know everybody was in the union. +You couldn't work in the quarry, you couldn't go through the gate in the quarry without being a union man, in the old days there. +And there was this system of four men in a bargain, nobody knew the other man's wages, we were all on different wage, everybody was on a different wage. +And if you were well in with the staff and the owners of the quarry you'd have more bonus. +They'd fix you up with er better bonus, but if you were a black leg they'd er be on less wagers. +That's what is was it was a terrible system there, but that was the system, that was the system they carried through the quarries in all the years that are gone. +It is contract it's a monthly contract you work for three weeks for one pound sixteen shillings and at the end of the month they count all the slates you've done during the month. +And you get this little bonus at the end of the month, maybe a couple of quid on top of your one pound sixteen shillings. +That's what they were doing, and then if you made too much slate this month, the following month they'd drop your bonus down, so as to see as to keep you on the same level, so you couldn't go any higher if you if you had good slate and worked your guts out. +And the following month they drop you, that's how they used to do it +Was there any sense that er you were in fact being put in the same position as your parents had been your your grandparents, had been in in in the sense not being able to get above a certain level by having your wages your bonus cut? +Well they I I tell you this they they we'd worked for him for er good many years and there was no talk of any cuts in wages, we had this wages all through the through these years, and everybody was happy with it. +Everybody were working on it and everybody was working a g a g a good days work and hard cos slate quarry work has always been hard anyway. +But everybody was happy there, and er, till this came along, he's the one that wanted us to work for less. +When he came along how could you see things had changed or how could you see in the process of changing? +Well straight away the first thing he done was to put these new tables in, and that was his idea when he put these tables in to get more slate, and less wages. +I dunno whether he he thought his father paid us too much, I dunno, but erm that's what he had in mind to start with, was drop the wages down thirty pound a week. +For everybody. +Was there any alteration in the style of management at all? +No, not a thing jus we were all working, just on the same, everybody was working,fr real hard but erm. +He had that in mind all the time to to cut the wages down, that's what they wanted to do. +That's what he wanted to do to from the start, cut the wages down and make more slate, that's what he had in mind. +He wasn't prepared to do anything else there no ar and he was he was to have these plant hire, you know these two, when when his old man used to work us us in the quarry, well this was working up there as well, he had lads working on the plant hire for him. +He had about a dozen lorries on the road, and machines er working the roads there, all they were working for nothing for him, these lads and he'd come along and before Christmas he'd stop a couple of them, just before Christmas, he used to do that every year. +Stop 'em, just before Christmas he used to stop 'em. +And my son-in-law he was working with him, and when he had that accident, well it's ridiculous what he done that day. +When he reversed that dumper over the tip. +Eleven o'clock in the morning, and lost his leg. +And he held the wages of the afternoon of him. +No I'd r I thought that was really terrible there. +Stopping a man's afternoon wages after he lost a leg. +Er it was, and he was only paying him twenty two pound a week at the time. +Was that considered a hard thing at the time? +Very hard, very hard I told the lads I told 'em the union about it what he done that day. +Must must be terrible man to do a thing like that eh. +And you know is after an accident like that, well, we never, the old slate quarry company wouldn't do that, they'd pay the day off in one a serious accident like that. +But that holding the afternoon off him after loosing a leg I think that was really terrible aye. +When it became obvious that the strike wasn't going to last a fortnight or it wasn't going to last a month. +How did you organize yourselves to stay together? +Well we had a meeting every week, a a union meeting, every week. +And we had the fantastic help in from South Wales, most thos terribly good er people were terribly good to us in organizing er different things. +Many supported us and the present the people. +Fantastic I never thought of anything like it, the money was coming in everywhere. +They really did help us Aye. +W w w w what sort of er p p people or organize or organizations where helping you then? +Well union, you know the union in the coal mines and all different well er everywhere in the North Wales here to, postmen, well every union was helping us with them. +Organizations and er money coming in everywhere and food parcels. +They were helping everybody. +I never thought of anything like that, I couldn't believe it. +Really fantastic, and there's still money in the fund now, for after it. +There was money coming in from overseas, Germany, Belgium, Holland, there wa everywhere helping us. +Aye. +W w w w were you as erm a large were you organized in any way in ord d er to c con t t t =tinue the strike le le length of time? +Well we could a continued it for erm, well I dunno, but erm it was getting a bit out of hand with the picket line really, cos there was a lot of these youngsters who weren't prepared to do these picket line. +You know they were coming there this week and they wouldn't come there for three or four weeks or something, thinking with this picket but it was very important to keep that gate, stop everybody from going in there. +But there was a lo lots of these youngsters who wouldn't prepared to do this picket business. +As they they got fed up with it I suppose I dunno er. +But there was no point in carrying it on really you know it. +If we'd a carried it on for say this time of the year now you with this erm Whitsun Holiday now, we'd have had to to do it seven days a week, cos you'd have to be there Saturday and Sunday to stop anything going in there . +But they weren't prepared to do it were they. +You know these youngsters they weren't prepared to stay on that gate. +W w w was the the encouragement then for the picket from the older men? +Well we c couldn't we had a lot of arguments about it you know in the union meetings about this picket line. +But we couldn't make anybody do it, you know they'd say, anyway that we'll do it, there's there's next week they wouldn't catch you up some of them. +So er er well we couldn't carry it out, cos the the ones who weren't prepared to do the picket wasn't erm going to do it, we'd have to do more of 'em to keep these youngsters on doing the picket, you know. +Where they then a group of people who, to whom the burden of being on p p per picket falling more and more? +Yes that's how that's how it was,yes all I was on that gate, I'd been on that gate myself dozens of times. +On my own there I I wasn't worried about it er you know. +But if one i man does the picket and the others don't, well it's gonna not gonna go show are they. +That's what the company wanted us you know to break up on it. +They wanted us, if everybody would have gone with me too the picket. +That's what these slate quarry owners wanted us for us to fall back. +The strike would have fall apart then. +That's how it was It had fallen apart with er without. +Everybody was standing, they was gonna go out. +That's why all these collieries have a different in it. +You know these self worth they're so terrible keen aren't they. +When you began to make all sort of when c contacts began to be made between erm you and South Wales in terms of support +Yeah. +D did you get any sort of erm, apart from financial support and material support, did you get any moral support of how a strike should be con conducted? +Oh yes they were they were telling us not to pack up there that keep the g gate going and you know they were, keep it going and they they'd er help us. +For years to come because if they stay out they give us hundred percent help to carry on with it. +But erm I dunno there's some of them weren't prepared to carry on with it, you know these youngsters, there was a lot of 'em they wouldn't, anyway everybody's not hundred percent you're not going to get anywhere with anything. +You f emphasized the fact of erm s solidarity fr fr from want of a better word. +Yeah. +Erm was it in your opinion because the young men had a lot of financial pressures +that they they weren't as s solid as the older men let's say or was it because they hadn't +No they hadn't a no they they started alright on that picket but as time rolled on and they was getting erm fed up with it, you know they that's how it went as they were getting, oh I we won't go up there today, bugger it. +And that's how it happened and you know some weren't prepared to s stay there on the gate an watch that nobody don't go in it er. +When you were in, when you were discussing these things in the l lodge meeting erm d d d did the younger men sort of indicate how they felt towards the picket? +Oh aye, know these youngsters today, they not er not the same as when we were young I don't think. +They don't seem to worry about anything a lot of these youngsters today. +You know if you're out on strike you're out on strike and must make it hundred percent, that's how it is. +Cos if you do anything you doing you must do it, go at it the right way and stick to it, ain't it. +But a lot of these youngsters er you know. +There was a few in the lads they were just didn't want to do this picket line. +And they were letting the burden on the others weren't they, to do it. +And there was lots of the we came to an end and if we were going to carry on with this further we the everybody was getting a bit fed up with it. +We were all getting fed up with it cos, having to stay on the gate five hours a day you know, three or four times a week. +Was really poor there but I dunno if we'd er stayed there or and carried on with it. +Was the er erm attention of the press, the television, the radio, the support of the local M. P., er m ministers in the town, university students, and all the other organizations, was that in in any way a help? +Oh yes, it was a help the students give us a fantastic help you know, in financially and the the came on that gate a lots of times with us. +They were on that gate with us very often, in the mornings and that. +And er the M. P. +on this he was up there with us, he was hundred percent too with us. +Oh yes, we had fantastic support out of them aye fantastic. +Everybody was p hundred percent, everybody. +But it was the scabs er that well they put us down to start with, and then the was picket line started cracking up was the these lads not prepared to do it. +That how it went out of hand in the end in it. +And everybody was getting a bit bored with it cos as it dragged on this is s seven months when you know a long time to be I never thought it would have gone this as long as that when we started off with it. +Where you erm aware at all that people were were having serious financial problems? +There's quite a few there with had fantastic trouble with their finances you know. +Cos the mortgages and that but there's a lot of them, and kids causing it, and Christmas was coming well you know we just, that's when they helped us at Christmas was really fantastic yes, true I never thought anything really out of this world how the how the people helped We got toys and everything for the kids' Christmas, everything you could think of. +Nobody or kids were short of a thing, cos erm people from everywhere were sending things. +And everybody had a t a twelve pound turkey each. +Aye everything was gi really fantastic the people that helped the people that gave to the strike, out of this world I know the help they had was really fantastic. +You e mentioned earlier on that people received er food parcels? +Yes. +Ha ha ha how was this organized? +Well the erm the girls were doing all the the wives were doing all the food parcels every week. +They were going up to the we call it. +And they were organizing food parcels for every striker. +And delivering them around on a Friday night and Saturday morning. +And it's a really good parcel,th they thought of everything they had everything in the in the food parcel, very good. +What sort of things would +Oh. +you you know sort of +had erm eggs, butter, tea, everything you could you needed was in there, and tins of all different kind of soup and were apples, oranges, everything was in there, in the parcel. +Really good parcel every week they were having. +Would + +We have received apologies for absence from, er from er Mr . +Are there any other apologies which we've received. +Thank you. +The minutes of the meeting held on the twentieth of October have been er distributed. +There is one modification er which has been drawn to our attention that is Mr Ian was present on that day. +Subject to that er amendment is it your wish that I should sign those minutes as a true record of that meeting? +agreed +thank you Er public petitions, none have been received, er other business, none has been notified. +Questions none has been received. +We therefore move to item one on the agenda which is the local management of primary and secondary schools and I call upon Mr Christopher to introduce the report. +Thank you Chairman. +The home manual school panel meeting erm on erm for sometime now and I think for those people who don't get to see the government. +It is an illustration of how it can, and should be done. +Because once the vigorous discussion, rarely does anyone sit and accuse us of having had clearly party political discussions, we had a job of work to do and as a result of that job of work is in front of you now in items one and two. +Item one deals with further delegations and aspects of further delegations er to primary and secondary schools. +The officers on part of the panel have consulted schools very carefully about the last remnants of possible delegation which might arise and the recommendations are as presented to us in red, set out in section three. +Section three point one gives aspects of further delegation which the panel considers after consultation with schools should not be proceeded with in nineteen ninety four, ninety five and justification for that is in the papers which is attached to agenda item one. +It should be realised of course that this does not close the door on further delegation each year should indeed there be indication from the schools that they would so wish. +Section three point two deals with funding for non pupils with special educational needs. +We suggest that this present system which I think many of us have doubts about should continue for practical reasons for nineteen ninety four, ninety five only and for ninety five, ninety six, we will have the benefit of the audit. +Three point three has been rather involved er aspects of examining average teachers' salary costs basically will fall down given that we've had a sixty five percent return from schools and we will be able to use this year, coming year the actual mandatory points in determining how delegation of salaries should be proceeded with. +Three point four is a small matter, of deputy head whilst it would be inappropriate of course to er schools indefinitely should there be reduction in numbers, certainly we do need a mechanism by which small reductions in numbers don't lead to a tragic and drastic loss of staff. +Section three point five is banking needs that er there was quite a lot of current by arrangements, but opt outs use erm, that's an unfortunate word in terms of education and will be allowed for those who are wishing to have alternative arrangements. +The panel is still considering the divisional schools library service erm the, they're very clear is at to whether these costs to the library is a fixed cost or a variable cost or perhaps even more to the point that it will need to reach the cost of libraries are fixed and variable and the differing views both within the panel and schools about that and the panel is continuing deliberating research. +On that basis I have pleasure in moving the in section six of this report as shown on page five. +Thank you. +Is there a seconder on that motion? +Well further +. +I further question the policy erm which, erm just mentioned, the average salary issue is that we want, erm that's, that's gonna cost us a million pounds next year, but we are doing it, so there's a million pounds in growth in everybody's er budget and basically everybody's budget when we come to later. +Erm on school libraries we're thinking of maintaining school library service and be as, be as fair as possible for schools that are different sizes, that I have erm, that I have erm, erm doing that. +. +Agreed. +Agreed. +Agreed. +Agreed. +Thank you. +We move then to item two the management of the schools, nursery and special schools erm +this is er mostly by . +Thank you. +Erm the speed with which we dealt with item one is encouraging or rather it's somebody might be but item two again maybe if proposals which perhaps er a little controversy. +There are two separate issues involved here, first of all there is the issue of nursery education, we have no statutory obligation er to devise scheme for the delegation of nursery schools. +Nevertheless +failure to do so would cause them problems. +First of all nursery schools would be dealing with the County Council on a different basis from the vast of, of the schools population and that will give rise to anomalies and complications which would be undesirous and secondly there might be problems particularly if they are considering expanding nursery provision between nursery schools and nursery classes in primary schools. +Both of these can be avoided by delegating nursery schools on a similar basis to the delegation which was made for ordinary schools and again you consulted about that and the proposal laid in this report. +And as for all special schools there is an obligation to provide a scheme for local management of special schools with effect from April this year er we consulted there was a little bit of chasing which had to take place in which you can see in section four of the report but following that chasing, we now ascertain meeting schools on favourable proposals for or against and once a week that, a view of and also undertaking as you know. +On that basis I will propose happily to suggest that those in, in Section Six of this report. +and I second agenda and erm we ask for your attention to para three point four er which is the financial part of this budget really and it says that some contingencies in nursery schools should be increased, erm that it is actually allowed for in the later budget erm the tax payer budget will be . +Er Mr . +Yes Chairman erm, I'm, I should like to draw attention to the paragraph three, two and wonder what happened to three, three, because er we see it goes from my copy goes from three, two, to three, four, so er I don't know whether there is anything in three, three that I have forgotten, but I, I assume now that I which they're are two other . +Erm may in fact find in reading the application of formula rather difficult to cope with because they're very special circumstances and of course the small nursery schools. +. +erm if there's, if there's a query then indeed I, I, three, three might be one of them. +. +. +. +The effective speech. +. +is there an added speech in what you are referring? +Sorry, yes I, I, I, I'm a very, I'm two, appendix B +appendix B +B er C +er, but there isn't three, three +erm, other than clairify the erm, all solutions were made available to members of the panel as an appendix to the reports to the Policy Panel er, but that they won't to all members efficiency but were made available +that's not the point. +there appears to be a in as much as there is a, a section, there is appendix B as the three, two, O, three, three . +typographical error, next business +. +I am assured that it is just a typographical error +They would say that wouldn't they. +. +We are after all teaching these children to count +which children? +money that motion has been added to. +Agreed. +Thank you very much. +It seems that you all want to hurry on to item three A, erm as far as the timetable is concerned +. +erm is going to make certain clarifications which we'll start with and is going to introduce the report and then to give some explanations. +After that we shall move to the three motions and there will be one debate on all three motions. +Chairman er, I have a petition that I have been asked to present er at what point do you wish me to do that? +I suggest that, that is er brought maybe before the motions immediately before the motions are put, erm after the motions, after the debate as one debate I am proposing not later than twelve forty five to call for the winding up erm speeches by the three movers of the motions and to take the votes erm prior to lunch. +If necessary lunch will constitute an adjournment. +Thank you er may I then ask if would er give clarifications on certain items. +Thank you Mr Chairman, I just want to cover three areas. +The first one has already been mentioned and relates to the actual average salary. +The second one is in relation to the sheet in front of you headed school meals and third area erm is the typographical errors on some resolutions to, to take you through . +As far as the actual average salary is concerned if you look at page nineteen paragraph K a white page on your report, page nineteen, paragraph K and there you will see that you're promised an audit report on the position relating to teachers' salaries, I can confirm that the position is consistent with the remarks that, that were made earlier on, cos you have within the budget here sufficient money to provide for our current estimate of next year's actual earning salary in these schools . +. +We have returns so far from sixty five per cent of the schools and we expect to have the remaining schools before the end of the month, I wouldn't expect it to change from where we are at the moment but if there was a significant variation then I will be in a position to report back to the Policy Committee at the end of the month but I'm, I'm not expecting that need be the case. +The second area relates to erm school meals and you have in front of you an erratum sheet the sheet outlines two areas of er change relative to erm in the main report. +Firstly, I am reporting to you that there has been in the current year additional efficiency savings over and above those that previously anticipated er at the level of two hundred thousand pounds and so we are assuming in the budget erm that those can continue into ninety four, five and thereafter, and then we'll see the resolutions have been amended to take that into account and the text of the erratum sheet explains how that's been done. +Appendix ten which is attached to the erratum sheet, it's the seventh page, you'll see there that you've got in front of you all the figures that were really erm concerned with in favour of the and amend er the report on lines fifty four A and fifty four B showing two hundred thousand pounds savings on school meals and you will see that reflected in the columns headed Conservatives, Labour and Liberal Democrats and those are consistent with the resolution papers that are in front of you. +Another aspect of this change is the erm the change in line fifty eight, where the business and saving in the current year carried forward has been increased to seven, nine, one, from five, nine, one, you can see in the report and you will see that +operated in the new appendix ten. +The second aspect of the school meals changes are with that alternative meal saving and would best be introduced erm if members were to decide that this is the way we wanted to go from April ninety five rather than in Sept September ninety four as suggested and attached to the report and that delays the savings, but achieves the same saving but not until nineteen ninety six seven and you will see that the figures have been amended and to take that into account and that's on line fifty four B appendix ten. +The third area I need to take you through is some erm typographical amendments to the resolutions that you have in front of you, so if you just bear with me I proposed to go through those and perhaps if you want to mark them on the sheets as I go through and if I'm going too fast erm just wave. +The first erm resolution sheet that you have in front of you is a pink one erm so the Labour group there are no typographical errors on the pink sheet. +. +. +. +. +I have to say these, these are documents in terms of the addition. +Erm the next erm feature is the yellow one for the Liberal Democrats, there's one Liberal Democrat typographical error and that's on the second page page four of the resolutions and you'll see that in the second column there's a total three, three, three five, that should be amended to, sorry three, three, three five that should be amended to three, one, five, five and then where it says nine the resource budget immediately below that nine, four, five, ninety four five O, it's three hundred and sixty thousand, three hundred and sixty million, six hundred thousand, that stays the same. +The figure that is three, six, one, nine, two O should be changed to three, six, one, seven, four O. +Yes. +is everybody with me on that one? +. +. +Again the appendix ten figures reflect the, the actual position, all we're doing is amending the resolutions and turn to the blue sheets +There are dozens. +And the first typo typographical error on the blue sheets is erm item six F. +The first figure for section eleven should be three, three eight rather than three, three four and the two totals at the bottom of paragraph six should read three, one, O, eight and two, nine, three, zero. +They're academic anyway +turn over the page to page six paragraph eight, item D eight D strategy, the figure's is a hundred and six and it should be one, five, six +God. +and the total should be one, three, three, six in that column +. +crap. +and that's it thank you very much +. +. +Thank you, er Paul, erm I'm now ask er to introduce +, +County Chairman, I'm pleased to present to the committee the report of the head of finance and myself on each resource budget in nineteen ninety four +I think I should start by stressing the process through which we have gone in order to prepare this report has been somewhat different this year from that which we followed in the past and +. +on, on past experience. +. +There has been more expensive consultation with head teachers and the governors than has been possible er before and I hope the result of that it is reflected in the pages that you have in front of you. +I am grateful both to the Education spokespersons who put a great deal of time in, in order to carry out erm their preparations towards this report and to and to take part in the consultation exercises and to my own colleagues. +Erm the fruits of that work will be revealed in the decisions that are made er later on today. +I am not intending to go through the report in detail erm but I hope that I we will now need to draw attention to one or two issues erm which are of particular concern and which emerged through the consultation process. +First of all the issue of increasing pupil numbers. +I am sure that we are all delighted that numbers in schools are now rising because it can be a very difficult situation in which to work when er a head teacher and governing body find themselves trying to manage a continuous decline. +At the same time that does create pressures upon the school and in particular it creates pressures upon you in terms of finding the money in order to ensure that those pupils are resourced adequately. +You have, therefore, erm a proposal for a figure of over five million pounds to meet the demands of increased pupil numbers er next year and of course that will be a continuing pressure for the future. +Secondly, I know that this committee has over a time been concerned about the resource needs +of primary schools. +We've all been aware of the extent to which the local management formula er has made clear erm the rather er significant difference between the resourcing of pupils in their families primary education and their early years of secondary education. +. +I hope you it will give particular attention to that issue er in your del deliberations later this morning. +Nursery education is an issue +which is being drawn to your attention I know over again a number of er months and years. +Hertfordshire's position on nursery education is a good one, by comparison with very many other local authorities including many counties. +It is an area to which the County Council has given priority in the past. +That does not change the fact that as far as parents are concerned if there is no nursery school or nursery class available to them then for them there is no provision at all and I know that you will want to address the question of whether you can find additional resources for nursery education er in the course of the debate. +I would also I think put in a word for the work of the joint po policy panel erm which is shared between this committee and the social services committee because it seems to me that it is not for us to be thinking that there is a group of children for who nursery education is necessary er or desirable and a different group of children for whom something else erm is necessary and desirable, largely because of their parents' position. +We do have to look at all our pre-school children as a group who have similar means as they grow and they learn and they develop and I hope that we can continue to push for a co-ordinated approach to the whole range of services that we are o offering to that group of children and to their families. +Thirdly, special educational needs has been an issue for this committee in the past and will no doubt continue to be an issue in the future. +We are continuing to experience a significant er pressure from schools in terms of requests for form assessment and statementing of children with special educational needs. +In the current term we are receiving requests at the rate of something like twenty five per week and of course that has the implications both in terms +. +of handling them through the, through the assessment and statementing process and it has implications in terms of finding the resources to support those children once the statements of provision are, are drawn up. +You will not, therefore, be surprised to see a number of items in er the budget report which relates to special needs issues. +It is an attempt to ask you to consider to maintain the sort of progress that we have been making erm in past years, but it's a problem is not going to go away. +At the present time it is being compounded of course by the er effects of nineteen ninety three Education Act with all that that Act implies or tightening up er many of the processes and procedures that we follow in dealing with special educational needs, we have a host of new draft documents for consultation from the Department for Education. +Many of them received just over Christmas and parents and schools are looking to us to give them help er in providing for what is a very rapidly moving situation. +Section eleven, Grant you have discussed with this Committee on a number of occasions. +I know that the concern is shared right across the Committee about the implications of the reductions which the government is proposing in Section eleven, grant. +I think I told you some months ago that I would be asking you to consider that +. +in the course of your budget debate and er true to form I've brought it in front of you this morning. +The need to prepare schools and help to help schools prepare themselves for the erm review of the national curriculum the changes that they will have to deal with and in particular I think, erm to help secondary schools to come to terms with changes in key stage four and the likely erm opportunities there will be for a more diverse curriculum including eventually er the opportunities for more vocational programmes in schools and to assist schools +. +to build on their own interest and commitment to erm deliver improved pupil attainments at sixteen and, and at eighteen, nineteen, in response the national education and training targets is an area which should not be forgotten. +A number of these things that I have already raised this morning are perhaps are, er primary phase issues rather than secondary but we must remember that the pressures on secondary schools continue as in the primary phase and finally another concern which you are all very well aware of and which particularly if you're governors you will have drawn to your attention constantly is erm the continuing concern about our educational building stock both in terms of its adequacy as regards the size and the capacity of the accommodation at, where some schools are concerned its need for repair and maintenance work and its need for adaptation to meet the new demands of the curriculum. +Er you have er a substantial er appendix within your er agenda papers which set out proposals from the building's policy panel which would help you to deal with some of those issues. +I shall be very brief and simply mention that +a number of the savings erm and the increased income that is available to, to avoid savings are the result of your own policies developed over a number of years and I hope implemented with a degree of further manage managerial action which has actually given you some money to spend, erm which will avoid you having to make er painful cuts in order to fund a new growth and in particular I would highlight the significant movement that has has now taken place, children from special educational needs provision outside the county, back into the county. +Erm th the reduction in the cost of discretionary awards which is partly the result of the policies that are partly also changing the, in the national situation and increased recruitment funding and in an area into which officers put in a great deal of time to try to make sure that we do the equivalent they should be getting. +It is a relief I suppose today, that I am able to speak to you on the basis erm of financial output which is a good deal more favourable than we expected even six months ago. +Indeed I think we frightened some schools six months ago erm not by any means er wi malice aforethought if er, because we all thought that the financial situation might be very much worse than it is. +Even so, the range of +. +pressures that this Committee faces and the need to try to balance out the sufficience of needs across a wide range of interest groups and a wide range of, of er pupils and schools means that your decisions are never easy. +You need also a course to be provident for the future in terms of ensuring that you will be able to continue to discharge your responsibilities in years to come. +It won't be easy erm but the decisions are now for you to make. +Thank you Chairman. +Thank you er . +Erm the John is now are going to explain certain aspects of the er . +Thank you Chairman. +I just want to draw attention to three major components within the committee report. +Erm the first is the base resource budget which is set out on page four, table one. +The base resource budget started +. +with the ninety three, four budget, of three hundred and forty two and a half million and er through the addition of certain growth items most notably that requires the demography for the additional pupil numbers we establish a base resource budget there of three hundred and fifty nine and a half million. +A seven million growth over the current ninety three four budget. +The second area of the report which I would want to draw your attention to is that area concerned with growth and savings and a number have put forward in sections seven, eight, nine and ten of the report, that on pages six, seven and eight and it's got within those growth and savings that we can work to the target set by the policy committee. +The high target of three hundred and sixty two point two million and the low target of three sixty point six million. +Then thirdly, I would like to draw your attention to the report of the capital programme er policy programme +. +where they're putting forward a recommendation for a number of minor and major building projects within the capital guidelines and those are set out in appendix er appendices five and six. +Finally, attached to your report er there's appendix ten which is the A three sheets +the first sheet has not been changed and the first sheet shows the base resource budget which you are being asked to recommend on line twenty one and then it shows a number of savings which can be achieved through efficiency and volume changes. +If those are then accepted, you have a second sheet to appendix ten which has been er modified and which has been circulated just prior to the meeting. +That sets out the growth of the savings and which it contains in the report with paragraph and appendix reference numbers on them and it sets out for each of the groups, their proposed budgets. +It is from that sheet that the figures were transcribed on to the erm on to the pink and the, the, the, the, erm blue and the yellow sheets which have been circulated and which have been amended so that the figures now correspond on both sheets. +. +Thank you. +Next I was going to ask before erm are there any questions of fact, I don't want anybody anticipating the debate but are the any questions on fact. +Mr Martin . +Erm er Chairman, may I ask a question on paragraph four, four and appendix three, that's on page four and appendix three on the increased percentage on school milk charge? +I see that percentage is quite high, way above the in the in the inflation figure er at seven point five per, er percent +and I wonder if I could have an explanation for the reason for that very high increase. +The er percentage is identified at the top of appendix three, annexe one of appendix three . +Er let me come back on that issue the er +right, well the E E C have cut their grants of all school milk I think you'll find certainly on that being discovered I would imagine that it's similar to the County Council. +Thank you. +May I ask er, er Mr that it would, whether she would now er pass forward the petition. +Erm I gather you wish to just present the petition +Yes. +at this stage but you wish to speak during the debate +Tha that is right Chairman,I I have a petition from the Watford Indian association containing seventy five signatures. +Er it is about the future provision of section eleven which appears in the main report, you will no doubt appear as part of the budget debate. +I think you can see if you look at the er, er around the chamber at the amount of interest that this er has aroused and the, the header referred to the number of other petitions and er, er letters that have been received. +Therefore this time, I will just hand it to you Chairman and er, er reserve my rights to . +Thank you very much. +Thank you. +I acknowledge this er receipt of this petition and I'm glad to see the er, er support of the present will change. +. +Er I understand that er +Mr is now ready to respond to the questions. +Yes, well erm it it isn't the effect of the changing er E C grant that's elsewhere in the budget and legislative changes item with the increasing cost there er, if you can change the grant or for instance where we're getting less grant from the E C. +What it is, is reflecting the intervention crisis of milk +oh, oh +the cost of milk undoubtedly +. +going up +. +it is increasing the price in line the increase in cost of milk +So just that, further clarification if I may, we are passing the increase er cost of milk on in the charge that we're making? +yes. +Thank you. +Right now to read er we first call upon Labour er Bob to move the motion standing at the erm . +give them some wellie but I don't think I'll do that, erm +. +. +sorry, erm this budget has a very long gestation period er I'm on version twelve I think at the last count and I hope there isn't gonna be a version thirteen. +Erm I ought to thank everybody erm, officers, members, head groups, service groups, unionists,petitions and all who've written to us. +We've taken all this into account, erm I'm not sure all groups have tried to do that, erm but we have tried to please everyone, we do have some particular priorities and we do want to make significant improvements in service where we can and not necessarily looking for cheap publicity by increasing in lots of places as some people are supposed to of done so where one concludes sometime a significant amount of money in but will have a noticeable difference to their essential service. +I am going to go through the pink sheet, I think that's easiest if I do that erm on the top of your pile +first the base budget,an this and return to give increase the expenditure is the five million pounds or so needed for the increased number of pupils. +Now we're meeting that in full and I'm glad to see that all three fiscal groups er proposing to meet that in full. +Of course last year that didn't happen and last year hidden away in the first part of the er the budget papers was this cut in the amount of money going to each pupil erm in education in secondary school, so this year we are not doing that we're going to meet the full cost of so in that sense the formula will be unchanged, and of course there's growth er later in the budget and both primary and secondary schools in terms delegated budgets. +We've have already mentioned the million pounds extra for salaries. +There's another cost of a million pounds which results from a change in government policy of the cost of government policy, now this is including the er unfair funding of G M schools and including the loss of that was just, just mentioned. +Now another of those things will be increased service, that's stand still, that's the best way to stand still. +There are other elements later which, which imp improve the coordinated pension for each pupil. +Erm well that base budget is rather higher than we are expecting and the time when, the policy committee set its targets for each of the service committees. +It's about eighty million pounds higher than we were expecting it. +So whereas the policy committee were allowing us three point five million grant maximum, on top of the er base budget, now course that's reduced because with cash limited to the total on to the base plus, so getting a lot less than with the group so they might say increase to about two and a half million rather than the figure we had earlier. +So in net terms we can have maximum, we won't go to this in the current till next year, erm two and a half million pounds of growth. +That's roughly about the same hours as the government's just decided to spend on sending the Parent's Charter to every household in Britain, I think that's gonna cost over two million as well. +Erm the government's there are telling parents what they ought to do. +This hypocritical exhortation er which is government policy these days erm is costing them same amount of money, they're actually spending intending, increasing erm education division. +I use the phrase hypocritical exhortation, because I know Jim is sitting there with a tape recorder and taking note of all the words we are using today our dictionary so I think the phrase hypocritical exhortation I said three times in relation to +. +in relation to the Conservative party's current policy back to basics and all that I think is the appropriate expression to bear in mind. +Erm, okay let me go on now to er the next section of the, the er resolution, which follows the report in terms of savings erm in para seven of that seven and para eight. +Now all groups have savings. +Erm another piece of that service on the great wall of justice around this morning erm, I the officers to take certain elsewhere. +Moving on to the row on paragraph eight, again all three groups are agreed er on this except with one I think exception of a certain group. +Er no one exception, it is to not allow appropriate expenditure on section eleven. +Erm both the Labour and the Liberal parties, erm think it's extremely important that we maintain this provision for the curriculum pupils who might wish to have petition early and we will maintain in full so the current level of provision under section eleven will be May next year, which puts a large sum on the money into that, this is growth in expenditure, the making up of government cuts, increasing the money we're spending, it's not increasing service, it's simply continuing the current current policies but it will continue as it is now. +Er against the cost of government changes so this last part of this budget is actually the cost of making up for government cuts and section of and we're disappointed that Conservatives decided to cut the section they were funding for next year. +I don't know how much they're cutting it, but the figures change again today no doubt. +Er so let me move on then to erm the growth areas. +Well the growth area section in ten, part of that is again, again, maintaining this level of service, er so if I move on to er the savings under paragraph nine, bottom of the pink sheet. +I'm going to say a word about the efficiency savings on school meals and the proposal from the Conservatives bringing this alternative meal system. +Now we couldn't do it anyway next year, we'll have to do it the following year as we've heard earlier. +Erm now I'm interested in this proposal, so I tried that on my daughter last +this is erm the menu, this is the menu of which erm is being used in some exp as an experiment in some schools, you have fish fingers one day, Monday beef stew, then hot dogs Wednesday, battered fish Thursday and turkey jackets on Friday. +Erm with very little choice, now I gave this to +. +my daughter, who's sixteen and also her school mates and she said, well where's the beef burgers? +where's the beef? so, so I'm dubious about this in terms of quality of nutrition, in terms of choice being offered and I think we need to look a lot more closely at this before we jump into agreement, change or in the system. +It couldn't happen anyway, in the next financial year, it'd have to be the following financial year. +Now I think that the whole school meals issue, not just this, but also the way in which cost savings are being achieved at the moment in schools. +Erm needs looking at by members. +We need members need to get a grip on what is happening and my wife suggests this, that the panel erm rather than setting up a new panel, look at the whole issue of school meals, this and other issues. +I'll get a load of erm in some ways. +As long as the nutrition is kept, as long as choice is available as long as they're popular with kids, then erm it might not be the . +Okay so I was on savings at the bottom of erm the sheets. +Er we are grateful to the Education Department for finding this two hundred thousand and er the, the +. +certain departments save as well, one of the payments I'm sure and again it's not a direct cut in the short places. +So growth savings in terms of erm provision in Educational Service direct. +So I can now move on to the next page which is the growth we're proposing, given the saving, given the splendid things that are allowed by the erm, by the . +Now there are four significant areas. +First +. +there's total here of a million pounds in the er next financial year when er part Inland Revenue and part of +. +which will find well in excess of a thousand extra nursery places. +Now all is quite clear in the consultations, certainly the one we have with the, the heads, whilst that they didn't want to continue the previous policy of expanding their tradition by increasing class sizes. +We are absolutely clear on that, it came over quite clearly from heads, the previous policy of increasing class sizes and therefore not spending any more money but claiming we're doing a lot for nursery education, the previous policy erm was not one which they wanted to support. +If we're going to increase nursery provision, we've got to do it by putting, putting money where our mouths are, huh, putting our money where perhaps some Conservative government peoples' mouths are as well, and they're all very keen to will the ends but they're not so keen to will the means, anyway this is the means, there's a million pounds here erm, next year we we effect , and other members can speak about that and the work that they first have erm, I do notice that, that the latest report from the erm commission on on education and the book we all had to read does give us this first priority, er provision in nursery education particularly in areas, er deprived areas. +If you read that er book er from the Commission you will find their very first goal is in relation to nursery education in deprived areas and the panel's looking at that, looking at indicators of, of deprivation as well as erm the . +Moving on let's have a talk about the primary school budgets, we're proposing a million pounds here for primary school delegated budgets er we assume that the schools have used that largely by non-contact time for the teachers. +Er we can't tell them how to use the money, we presume they will do that, erm this is a significant increase on the amount that the Conservatives seem to be suggesting which is just I think deputy heads so there are a hundred and forty thousand er deputy heads to go . +Er moving on swiftly +. +er the next big area, again there's another million pounds in total for special educational needs erm and provision for pupils so if you add up +section C, that's the to schools of budgets and the included, that comes to another million pounds sum of budget. +Now we notice that whilst the other groups are agreeing the officers that we actually buy sports +they're not putting money into delegated budgets now, I, I, I was a teacher, a head teacher and I was told that the erm, the essential, the educational departments finding more money for devices and to give advice to school, now, they're all unnecessary as it is, I would say, we are the ones that carry out the job, we're on the ground, we've got to do it. +Huh it's not good helping us to do it, we need money to, to do it within schools, so we are proposing an increase in the delegated budgets of both primary and secondary schools, special educational needs +that's about five per cent on the current six million pound allocation, which alone is based on free school meals,should make a future upon the special needs audit. +Moving down, I am not going to comment on the Conservative resolution, erm there's all sorts of cuts in there and lack of growth, I am going to ignore it actually, the Tories are so far out of touch, huh, on, erm both nationally and locally, totally out of touch with what people think and that the government will obviously untouched, we all know that, but I'm surprised and disappointed the Conservative opposite are also out of touch and the figure is way out from both the Liberal and the Labour way out, and with all the consultations it's had. +The they're cutting everywhere and they're growing erm . +I am not going to bother with a certain group. +. +like attack +I don't necessary +. +erm, so if I move on then, now to eight D which is forty the fund, we have written into the resolution, huh, let's be clear about that. +Erm how we want that fund to be distributed. +We discussed this at the panel and they +. +proposed that we should in effect give the money to erm a non county body involved in this , to allocate, to work out both the basis of the allocation and the allocation funds in this order, we think that's inappropriate, If we're putting up money then we should also have the responsibility for allocating them among a until the done and the done, so I'm at all, or whether our council or something to be set up in the future should have equal control of that, that money. +Erm I've given a zero for all the effects because they of money erm if it i if, if this idea works well then we consider that growth next year as well but to be prudent wh why didn't you justify the service environment rule, to be prudent, erm, I, I have assumed that will be a proper effect and therefore I'm not assume the potential of next year's base budget. +I would like to think Mr that you are coming towards the end +Oh yes +Here, here +can see I'm . +Erm the next item is similar to that education which I shall speak to you later and then erm at the moment. +on a couple of programme, we put some money into this er together er more er, we notice that the Conservatives haven't, I think that's all I want to say on, on that . +Erm now in general terms, this budget keeps within policy guidelines and I am grateful to Environment Committee for sticking to their lower level and help us out as mentioned yesterday. +The Labour group will keep within the government capping limits, obviously we will, and therefore the council tax increase is getting no more than about four percent, so you can't claim all this growth is gonna, well it certainly can't count all this growth is going to er, with this ma , massive increase in Council Tax. +The average Council Tax payer, the council tax can't be more than, around four percent erm which reminds me of the last miracle budget we had, ninety eighty nine I think it was, again a Labour budget which I think was three point nine per cent increase then and the lowest rate of increase for twenty years erm and the highest level of growth erm . +. +erm again if any of the the increases under . +The Tories cut it as soon as they got back in power. +We're putting it back again and this time we're gonna make it stick +Yeah. +Just to conclude, this is the best budget education's had for many years, it's good news for schools, it's good news for council tax payers and mostly importantly it's good news for pupils and I hope you'll accept that. +. +Thank you, is er anyone prepared to second that? +. +. +Thank you. +And now we call upon er Paul to present the er Liberal Democrat er . +Yes, thank you Chairman, I hope to be slightly er more brief erm, in proposal of the Liberal Democrat budget of er, er three, six O point six million which I would remind with your permission is the er the minimum target er, er suggested by, by . +Er I think we must remind ourselves that er this year's as I say is by no means er generous and for that reason we're not aiming higher, not because we wouldn't like to, but because we recognize the, the restrictions placed from elsewhere. +I think this is one of the chairman because there was so many horrendous forecasts in the summer and autumn about the S S A that when it was announced you know we thought it was goods news and of course it wasn't , erm so this is why they're trying to be prudent and we have kept in our proposals to the erm, has already mentioned that er, thank god, the er democratic growth has been covered this year and so on, erm, plenty of other things that we would like to see erm to comply with the government's own legislation erm but they where with all. +. +I would like to extend my thanks also to the officers who have worked er very, very hard er both sides of the Christmas. +Er I think I am on version ten, I don't know whether that's one or two more than , but er, the officers have worked, worked very hard and I'm very grateful to them, erm I'm also very grateful to the primary heads, secondary heads, their own staff associations, and the representatives of the governors for whom Hilary, Bob and I have met, and er we've listened very carefully to what they have to say and we've done our modest best to er to er use their priorities as well as our own perhaps political one, we've looked at the educational value er, I suspect more than the other two groups erm than the political sum. +Erm I have thought that the same is listed in paragraph seven er and the growth of paragraph eight were non, non-controversial and er would have received all party support but I . +Er but of course I I must say something about section eleven funding, this whole section under funding, er is er featured in, in, in this section and er, er I'm not too sure what the Tories are playing at er, unlike Bob I am not going to condemn them out of hand now, being a Democrat I want you to hear what they have to say and then we'll roast them this afternoon +. +erm and while we're talking about er, er +. +Conservatives, this government has perpetrated some dastardly things +. +in recent years but among the worst must be the reduction by the Home Office of taxable funding +Here, here, here. +Not because they granted its continued necessity, your sanction will continue providing someone else pays. +They say they can't afford it, we say that we must afford it. +Not from the space of pity of certain members of our community or even of generosity but purely from investment and common sense. +If we fail to help these children now they will not be able to contribute to the social economic wellbeing of the nation and may cost us in time more social and financial in, in, in the future, so it's good investment, we're friendly with them, we, we do sympathize them but it's only common sense and good investment that we fully recompense that the to the level it shouldn't be er by the Home Office that is to replace fifteen percent o of seventy five, I think seventy of . +Assuming there is a majority if not unanimous approval for savings in both in paragraph seven and nine analysis in paragraphs eight and ten. +I'll try to make it brief because Bob has er mentioned this and has pretty well er all party support to, to the savings, er the reduction of two percent in the erm, it's not quite devastating but following the er drastic restructuring of the, of the department in the last two or three years, is quite significant erm er I, I, and I think that er we must thank the, the director of and, and er volunteering if you like because in 's report erm th ,th , these, erm the, the savings. +Erm there's enough I think enough has been said on, school meals, it's those, they're only in, in the, both were identified with efficiency savings of er Joanne erm in school meals without I hope because in the content or the, the nutritional value of the basic meal. +Here again I've got to reserve comment er on, on what the Tories are proposing for, for, for next year, erm you know once you condemn it out of hand we like Bob says he's got an open mind, and I'm glad to hear it er we also have an open mind on this, but we, we'd like to hear more er of what's in the debate before we before we comment. +Er so with these three measures plus the seven hundred and one thousand estimate er underspent th this year to carry forward, we have er about a million and a half to use against er further grant and of the options listed in section ten er, ours are not dissimilar from the, er from and I best pick the +. +erm we have, we, the Liberal Democrats have made no secrets in, of the fact, locally and nationally that er within the nursery places are our top educational priority. +Er Mr Major pretends it's his but Mr Patten, if I understand Mr Patten rightly, says the country can't afford it, so here again if they can't afford it, I certainly can't county, county must afford er at least the six hundred and thirty five thousand which is in our proposals er that will be nine, sixty five in a full year, to find nine hundred and twenty extra places. +We've been precise on this because this is, if you look at your agenda papers, er quite detailed suggestion, one of the quotas, one of the options er in fact that we, the same about officer's, erm nine twenty er the basis er, er is, is erm a very near to the that's thirty five including capital, er we had to go fur further, obviously and, but we picked the Labour figure er and I wonder a little because the advice we have is that once we go over nine twenty places become much more erm, unfortunately costly. +Our next priority like er, Labour says like a the different degrees is er the primary schools er many of which as we all know that we've been struggling and to cope with inadequate budgets. +We propose therefore to increase delegated funding, fund the schools by one point one million er, er approximately four and a half thousand per head average per school. +Er coming next to our priorities on special educational needs, erm I attended a, a and conference as recently as last Saturday and I didn't know it all already, I did, er I am now determined that +. +we will do all we can for, well especially at the centre and while, whilst acknowledging the need for it to resource at the schools at this conference the voluntary agencies, parents and even teachers admitted the greater need for specialists at the centre, that is we want more education psychologists, advisors of all sorts and er, therefore supporting options er at ten, one C, small roman one, and small roman three on the agenda, but er that is reluctantly not er not small roman two. +This means that erm four hundred and ninety thousand extra in addition to nine hundred thousand in, in, in paragraph eight. +Erm I know the Conversatives have also has gone for one three and not for two. +Er I assure you there's been no conclusion on this and I am sure will agree with me +here, here +. +erm the rest of arbitrary proposals maybe considered small comparison in, in financial terms at least but er differ a little if any in, in educational value, that's two hundred thousand to boost the fourteen and nineteen strategy, er I think there must in the present climate in which we have to regard the vocational content of education as well as the academic. +Two hundred thousand to improve the provision for extra pupils, here again er lot's come out of er, the, the , but er ministers wax eloquent about what we should er do about this mounting problem of erm, of er truancy exclusion, discipline in general, erm, they tell us what to do, they tell us, er we must have er referral units and what have you, but then dont' give us any funds to do the job, but I'm glad to say that all three party agreement that er that two hundred thousand or so, it to improve the er the, the service for extra pupils. +Erm we must recognize +that the, to cope with the expression on that there, that erm we, we must fund, fund this referral unit, erm coming last to capital, erm many of school buildings are in an abysmal and dilapidated position through neglect over many, many years before er, we've given perhaps , erm, but our meagre a hundred and ninety thousand er I've, I admit won't go very far. +Er there and er it's therefore er the best use we can make of it, not specifically for any particular school in any particular circumstances as I read in the, that the, that the Tories proposals have been in, on, on, on the issue. +Erm I don't think I need to say any more, but I promise to come back later when I've heard what other have, have to say. +has already said that the Tories don't seem to have any provision for capital and I'm dying to know why they have as much to say about the additional buildings as anyone else er I'd be interested to know what they say. +So finally, Mr Chairman I, I command this modest Liberal Democrat budget to your committee in the hope, not too optimistic er receiving all party support, but I feel it would be considered too modest by one and too extravagant by the other which suggests to me that the moderate unprejudiced er will got this about right I move +. +Thank you. +. +May I ask for a seconder for that motion. +Yes, I'll second it er and I reserve my rights. +Thank you. +I have now of course gone er Mrs Birmingham er to present the Conservative motion. +Thank you Chairman, erm I'm delighted to be the last person to present a set of budget proposals as it gives me the opportunity to draw attention to some facts that seems to have been overlooked by the representatives of the other two groups. +Indeed I believe there's a distinct possibility, that the force of persuasion in my arguments will bring the other two groups over to the Conservative point of view. +. +optimistic . +. +Mr may not attack Conservatives +. +but of course that doesn't leave me much to talk about,becau , however he managed to go on for about ten minutes +that all? +because the Labour and Liberal Democrat budgets, as far as I am concerned are tweedle dum and tweedle dee, very little to choose between them. +Labour make proposals and the Liberal Democrats in effect say . +Now clearly we are not going to join the need to exercise, because Chairman no one has mentioned or drawn attention to the fact that the preamble to the budget paper contains a very distinct warning, that in addition to the estimated resource gap in nineteen ninety four +. +whether it's nineteen ninety, ninety five which is relatively small, it widens to a potential sixteen point five million, fourteen point five million minimum, in ninety five, ninety six and to twenty seven point two million in ninety six, ninety seven. +Even if those figures are reduced by the two million each year that leaves a very large financial mountain to climb in the years ahead and I apologise for beginning with that gloomy prognosis but it does get better, thanks to our proposals. +The Chief Education Officer sorry Director also contain these warnings in her introduction, she reminded us that we would have to discharge our responsibilities in the years to come, she reminded us that decisions are never easy and she reminded us that we need to show that we are capable of firm managerial action. +Now I see no evidence in the er proposals of the other two groups of those qualities, there I do not see coherent form of covering for the contingencies that we could face and I see a real unwillingness to indicate how they would tackle priorities. +That has always been the case, we have always been criticised for doing it but I find it outstandingly noticeable this year. +Our budget reflects our commitment to our schools, it aims to improve the level of service to our schools, particularly in the area that's been identified the schools themselves, by the schools themselves as one of their highe their highest priorities, that was special needs. +We also aim to prepare more four year olds for full-time education and we aim to provide incentives to schools that wish to diversify the fourteen to nineteen curriculum. +We are also able to fund this year this very substantial increase in pupil numbers. +This isn't always possible as we saw last year and as we have been reminded, that was not an easy decision and in fact it's one of the reasons that we haven't put extra money into the primary schools this year. +First of all we couldn't find it and secondly the secondary schools had a defacto decrease last year. +Given our commitments to the programmes that we've set forward and given our commitment to the council tax payer, remember that person again not mentioned today +. +the question may well be asked, how are we going to fund it? +First, regretfully, we do not feel we can enter into an open-ended commitment to fund the shortfall in section eleven. +We believe that we do, we believe that a +shame shame . +review of the service should be undertaken immediately, with a view to perhaps reducing the number of bases +. +and perhaps rationalising a certain tier, keeping the teachers and assistants who are actually in the schools as our top priority and maintaining a careful balance between schools with very high needs and schools with isolated children who are actually even more in need of support and know how. +We are committed as was, as we've decided last June to retain the programme until September nineteen ninety four. +Thereafter we would wish to phase in the reduction in staff to match the Home Office funding, half in ninety four, ninety five and the rest in ninety five, ninety fi ninety five, ninety six. +It is reasonable to expect with a re an extensive programme like, like section eleven that there has been a build up of expertise, hat there has been a build up of educational resources and why should one area of the service be exempt from examination or assessment. +We've done a review of the service, we did a review of field centres, we really do not accept that one area, no matter how worthwhile and I've talked to you +. +on many occasions to the excellent work done by and the section eleven team, but we do not believe that any area is entitled to automatic exemption. +Here, here practice. +We don't think to have the sixty to ninety transport debate yet again, this route remains committed to a policy of reducing the amount we spend on transport because that ultimately benefits our schools and with this in mind we will reintroduce +our grace in favour charge of sixth formers and college students. +. +The existence of the hardship fund make absolutely sure that economic considerations need not deter pupils from attending college or sixth form +rubbish +but to introduce a blanket free charge when some are willing and able to make a contribution to us is a nonsense. +Members of the committee will see that savings continue to come through on the school meals service and this is to a very considerable extent, the result that the ethos of the previous Conversative administration which ran a tight ship and positively encourage deficiency. +A number of the savings in this report come into that category. +I believe that we must look very closely into the alternative meal. +It uses modern technology to provide an extremely cost effective meal and it's substituted with fresh items every day. +I spoke not to an individual child but to the head of school in Hatfield where the scheme was piloted and I have to say he was, he neither rhapsodised nor condemned. +He had an open mind and said there were pluses and minuses and for it, I think if it was pointed out in future years, that an extra mil one point four million pounds could be available for school budgets he would look at it perhaps a little differently. +Maintenance allowances for college students, well we signalled fairly clearly last June that we feel that maintenance allowances for college students should be the concern of the F A F C. +There has been no positive response to our representations so perhaps it's time to be more firm +to the extent of phasing out funding and putting the F A F C on the spot. +My colleague Chairman of the Youth and Community Panel and Policy Panel will speak on our proposals in that regard. +So Chairman just to in conclusion, we continue, we are proposing to continue this daily expansion of nursery places, our half a million pounds this year would be divided up roughly three hundred and fifty one thousand pounds on revenue and a hundred and fifty thousand pounds on capital and would gain us over four hundred new places, that's in line with the type of expansion that we achieved +. +last year, and we believe that that type of steady growth is very is, is, is desirable. +Special needs again we've highlighted, we have put in a token on the er in the primary sector erm it's a notional amount, clearly we can't tell the schools how to spend their money but it seemed to us that the increasing in managerial role of primary deputy heads, they would welcome er a small increase in non con in non contact time. +That's an area of course that we would wish to increase eventually but looking at the protected figures, a large increase in the primary schools delegated budgets this year could result in, in a de facto cut to the secondary schools next year. +Some of the decisions clearly are easier at than others because we get a certain concensus on the easy ones, while we've gone to some of the more difficult ones to exemplify behind the changes that need to come about that it will not have a direct impact on schools and their school budgets and the children, but will promote the services we've always done. +This is a budget Chairman that builds on the achievements of the last four years, the care for our schools and it takes into account that the future will not be as rosy as we would like and allows for contingencies. +In harsh numerical terms we didn't accept the Policy Committee guidelines, we felt that they in some ways were over generous and we aimed for, we purposely, deliberately set ourselves lower targets with point we're two point six million below the Liberal Democrats for nineteen ninety four ninety five. +Three point five million below Labour, but if you look savings in the pipeline of four point three million against the Liberal Democrats and four point eight million pounds against Labour. +Let me remind the Committee, it's not too late to cross the political divide +. +and it's not too late to vote for common sense and careful management. +. +Thank you, er do you have a seconder? +Formerly seconded but I reserve my right to speak. +Thanks very much. +I would like to at this point to review the timing that we set earlier on +Who said that? +Who said that? +we could pass straight to that and er sort of go to lunch erm +what people wish to do perhaps +. +if we stick to the original proposed target, we'd only be now some twenty five minutes for general debate and I would be, this is probably therefore a serious issue +Yes. +one of our serious of the year, we should er extend that debate er we could extend as late perhaps half past one for lunch or we could bring it to half way between half past one, so the feeling in respect of that +. +Would you +. +stick stick to twenty five minutes of debate and then close +Yes +Yeah +Absolutely +I would like then to draw your attention to standing order C page, paragraph four, all speeches shall be concise and relevant to the matter in hand. +Pity you didn't do that do that a bit earlier Chairman. +. +Relative to the matter in hand I take it to mean that it is to do with the budget er to prepare for this County and do not er to be the irrelevancies of machination in other places. +I would hope that they will, people will not, will be speaking primarily on the variations of the previous speeches that have been made. +We should not be having the same speech from the same group on the same issue at any point and also I would hope that where there is agreement between the groups that there is not time spent in +. +debating the agreement. +Finally, I propose to call no person more than once to accept that the movers will have the opportunity of winding up at the end and I would please ask you to wait until you have been called. +I have an indication from Mr that he wishes to speak. +Thank you Chairman for this . +After the behaviour yesterday, someone claiming to be spokesman for the Tory group on the environment backed up vocally by these minions, I said to my group today, no more Mr nice guy. +. +but I needn't have bothered +. +because it is becoming increasingly difficult to be nice to the Conservatives particularly when you produce something like this +Look at some of the points here +Oh shut up. +. +look at some the points, I've heard, I've been heckled yesterday don't heckle me this week the section of level funding. +What sort of misguided speech was that? were they dance about it or trim here, what they're saying very simply and this is relevant to the people who are listening to us today, is that they are not prepared to restore the cuts made by the government which they have got elected. +They are taking responsibility, either they agree with their government or they do not agree with their government, but to pretend that somehow we can not at all, some of the cuts that are made , that the f the other, does not convince us, I'm sure it does not convince the people on our right and even less more convincing than the people who are listening to us today. +Over the page it gets rather worse, child under sixteen to nineteen . +A saving is one way of looking at it or profiting from education is another way, apparently what the Conservatives would wish to do, they wish to make people pay for education and there is no other way of looking at it. +Reducing staffing in the need of community services, it's only seventy five thousand pounds, but why, what possible justification with rising grants, rising private sector etc., etc., you know the problems out there. +What possible justification can there be for that, given the fact the actions are reasonable as they stay this year. +Increasing nursery provision, you know it's very amusing actually the press release that had early this year er from er earlier, mid last year in fact +. +from the Conservatives saying that they believed in nursery education. +It's rather late for the press releases on some months later, the press release coming from my group and coming from the Labour group it was a late conversion but not much of a conversion let's face it, the word tokenism springs to mind that's what I've written next to the Conservative line there, totally, and I don't believe in nursery education but they know there are votes in it. +We actually put it down in our own manifesto because we thought it was a good idea. +Oh there increasing primary schools delegated budget a hundred and forty thousand pounds. +Frankly one of your a hundred and forty pounds because at a hundred and forty thousand pounds that is an insult +. +that is three pence per child per week. +It's hardly worth drawing the cheques in certain cases and the capital programme, couldn't see it actually when I looked for it first time, had to go back to the pink sheet and found the noughts, now we're not as generous as we'd like to be, but at least we try. +No capital expansion. +Now I wonder where and this maybe unduly cynical, but it is difficult to be unduly cynical with that lot over there. +This is something to do with grant maintained schools, don't repair schools government comes along and lovely Mr Patten if he's still there +. +well who's next?,today John Patten tomorrow +Chair . +said here's some money, here's some money and +a point of order +you just go +Has the debate moved on? +I thought we were debating A +The, we are debating A, B and we're debating altogether. +Yes. +that's the the same +Yes but not D . +Charles . +because D is our . +. +D is our resolution on capital +right +verdict rather like it in er section eight of . +indeed. +If there voting on then it's traditional, point of order during the speech, thank you very much and what took me so long. +. +I thought the Conservative budget is a contemptible budget the people in the people voting or an increase in nursery provision increase in educational provision this is what we are trying to give, the Conservative party are trying to claw back, to cutting our budget, by two point six million pounds, that is not what people voted for and is not what people want. +No further discussion necessary on their budget let's get on with the serious business of funding real education in Hertfordshire which we asked and in this particular case the Labour party. +Good I you have stepped out of the debate +. +by a ludicrous budget. +The Conservative? +and briefly the Labour party, we have certain doubts over certain lines there are similarities, good. +Perhaps two sets of people do actually agree on education. +These may need to be debated as they were before compromises may need to be rich, but I'm afraid it looks as though it's gonna be a compromise only between two parties, but this isn't a . +Thank you. +Thank you, er Mrs . +Thank you Chairman er tell, very quickly as er my voice is going so I'm going to be very brief on it, for er, two for about two points. +The first one is the question on special educational needs. +Yes of course we will increase this +. +er better support and better advice for schools, but I agree entirely with what says, it's no good having the best advice in the world if we can't deliver the er, er, the, the recommendations and one of the things that er has been borne in, on me, when I was sitting on the panel looking at special educational needs that the early identification of the early intervention when there are difficulties which start to arise in schools can save you a lot of money later on and unless the schools have the resources to er, er to meet with the er recommendations which are being made on particular children, then we are asking for trouble there, so that I'm very concerned about the fact that er, the like, like the early one which was er increase that er provision. +On section eleven, yes we are along with the Liberals, we are trying to maintain the budget against the government cuts, but don't anybody get away with the impression that that is going to maintain the service as it is at the moment, because we are really to pick up extra pupils. +Section eleven was confined to er people of commonwealth origin. +The categories have been increased but the funding has not, so that er although this is in as a growth item and although it is being presented as a standstill item, in fact it may not have been a, a, a, a reduction in the service. +Section er, I was very surprised indeed that er Hilary asking for a review of the service because in fact all one's experience and I am sure as well tells us that this is a success story, it is something that petition after petition that we've asking to keep it that way, shows that it is one of the services that the County provides which is very much appreciated by the recipients and we can't say that in all County Councils' services but you can say it about er the section seventeen and I think you ought to acknowledge that Chairman. +Thank you, Mrs Pauline . +Thank you Chairman, I appreciate that erm prudence isn't flavour of the month in the current majority at this County Council and that indeed has been proved by several speeches from the opposition parties that were made this morning +you must, however, +. +In the other parties +the other parties +we must take heed though Chairman of the warning in the report and that was mentioned by Mrs Hilary , that it's the responsibility of this Council to plan the future needs on the basis of the estimated shortfall in resources that have been forecast. +The problem is, it seems that the, both the Liberal and the Labour budgets do precisely the opposite, they've obviously decided to adopt an approach of spend, spend, spend now and hang the consequences for the future. +Now I'm a governor of two schools and from this perspective in particular, I'm very pleased to see that as a result of the legacy of previous Conservative administration and the generous S S A proposals for this year, that the Conservative group have been able to put forward a budget which enables schools budgets to be increased fully for demography and inflation and certainly I know that was a great worry this year in many of our schools that that might not be possible so it's good to see that it is possible. +The Conservatives were also putting forward of course prudent growth in important areas and one of the areas that I would particularly like to mention is that of nursery education. +Following on from the last administration, the Conservative proposals and that it would enable something like four hundred and fifty extra nursery places to be provided. +That follows on a steady increase in nursery provision over the last few years. +But obviously it must be necessary to waive the statutory sectors, versus the non statutory, so it isn't er possible this year, perhaps to put in as we might do if were to be as imprudent as the opposition parties. +What Bob said of course was totally untrue with respect to what the Conservatives did in the past. +It is true we did increase the pupil to teacher ratio to one to thirteen in line with the F E er guidelines and that of course did provide some extra nursery places but last year we did put in real resources and actually increased the number of nursery places by about four hundred which involved the development of several new nursery classes, so it is completely untrue to say that the Conservatives attempted to increase nursery education on the cheap. +We put in real money into this area. +I would also like to nail the lie that the Conservatives don't care about nursery education as put forward by Chris as Mrs already said this morning, Hertfordshire County Council has one of the best records of nursery education in the whole of the country, something like seventy five per cent of the client group currently have part time nursery places. +These figures are in the report, we are an authority that has an extremely good record on nursery education and I hope that no one will believe the attempt to try and black the good record that the Conservative and that have the Conservatives had have in this area. +The budgets of course proposed by the Liberal and Labour groups, have some aspects which would be desirable. +The problem is as they know in their heart of hearts much of what they propose this year is not sustainable in future years. +Undoubtedly therefore much of the growth that they've put in is this year's budget, will have to result in schools' budgets being cut in the future. +. +Now, I think we all appreciate that the Liberal and Labour groups are working to another agenda. +They'll of course attempt to claim that any future cuts in schools' budgets are down to lack of government funding. +This will not be true if the Liberals and Labour groups con something + +Aha and that gets rid of it from the front page. +Sorry Rod, do you want me to +No, it's okay er, just carry on cos I'm just looking for a piece of paper to write it on. +the was that the first one was was more or less science orientated an I I, I looked at it and thought how how I could how I could make it such that it was common +Yep. +er, so that Angela could use it you know. +Erm and I came up with this bit, sort of the middle bit, national curriculum levels would be er your own thing right? +That wou tha that bit would be erm different for each subject. +The middle bit +Yeah. +whereas +These? +the top bit and the bottom bit with the at all +Mm mm. +and the format would be the same and you just have different names on the top here +Yeah. +so it would be the same sort of format. +And if you didn't want to do national curriculum levels or it wasn't appropriate then you could continue your staff comment now or you could draw a wee picture there or something like that, you know? +Yeah,and comments. +Er, the first thing is I put on the top of my draught that I'd rather the pupils weren't involved at this stage I'd rather they were involved in the over view with form tutor. +So I, I wouldn't have taken, make a pupil comment on that section. +I'm not very happy with my box! +Why what's wrong with it? +Well, the first one +You mean, you're on page two now? +Yes. +Right. +Well can we not talk about page one first? +Can can we to some +Yes, alright then. +ignore page two because it's the next stage on, in fact,yo because it's a summation sheet isn't it? +Mm. +Alright? +We're actually at the moment the the the brief, the focus is to actually on what we, look at what we would send out as a report to parents. +That performs a second function +That's, that's the report at the end of . +Right, it's +Mm. +if you like, that summate sheet +Correct. +alright? +So can we just ignore that for the moment and focus on the first sheet deliberately +It's not difficult +Yeah. +Mm. +Because I think it gives us er it's got a lot of common things in, it gives us a baseline to work on +Mhm. +as opposed to be airy fairy! +Cos that was the problem last time wasn't it, we weren't quite sure +Mm. +where we were starting from and I think it would be valuable to do what we started doing and actually to look at this as the baseline and decide how we might amend it to keep common factors in that we can all use, because we need something that has a common denominator level +Mm. +in. +Is that, is that +I did that, I did that with . +Right. +You +Mm. +one of the things you said, Angela was that there wasn't enough comment on the original one, wasn't +Aha. +enough room so I the size of that because of that +Yeah. +more room +But I've , what I'm saying Rod is I've done the same thing +Sorry Angela! +because +Yeah, I'm trying to put the excuse +I haven't been I haven't presented it as well Don has. +Right. +But I've done a generalised thing that could be adapted. +Right. +I think this is very good one! +Ah oh yeah, I like that, I like it, yep! +Erm, just picking little bits, I mean er,we when we say actually what it is erm, annual report do we say the annual report to parents, or is it annual report just I know that that's minor but at the actual top what do we actually call the thing that we're presenting? +I think, I, I would actually prefer to leave the word annual out and just put I dunno what you wanna call it, I'd I'm always +edgy about the word report +Well Ralph Gardener +Yes. +Community High School, yeah. +It will be Ralph Gardener Community High +Yeah. +School that's the first thing. +Yeah. +Do we need to put on what it is? +I mean, is it not almost explanatory? +Yes, we we do need to put it on. +We do need to put it on. +I'm looking for Bill, is he around anywhere? +Bill? +P E. +P E. +And they're in room one which is down past +Okay! +wherever something! +In the past we've used different terms haven't we? +We we we went to statement to parents! +Refuse and this,tha you know! +To deliberately move away from the idea of the old reporting format that's why we've used the word statement to parents. +I mean that box on the left hand side there could be Ralph Gardener Community High School and where it says science or maths or whatever +Yeah. +above that could be report for and then science you know? +What's wrong with just a title, science or +Oh okay then! +It seems quite clear I thought +I wo I understand that you preferred the word report to be there? +Well ah, no! +Didn't say the word report +Sorry! +No, he didn't say that, no. +I think that an indication of what the sheet is +Yes. +for the benefit of +Mm. +whoever might pick the sheet up. +So, Ralph Gardener Community High School, hyphen and, I would say annual out because +Mm. +Mhm. +it might well be +May not be annual! +Right +Mm. +Mhm. +and we either go with the word report or we look for an alternative word or words. +What is what is the, what is the, is assessment not the word to use these days? +Mm. +No, it's not a report is it? +cos if we're reporting, we're not assessing. +Mhm. +It is a report to parents and I mean, under legislation we have to report +report +to parents. +Well I mean I I was +That's +just looking at that one where we said well report to parents +Annual report to parents , yeah. +you know, and is that is that satisfactory? +Well that +Or do we want to call it something different? +In that case should call it subject report? +Subject report instead of annual got enough space in there only make it small. +Do we need subject report in if you're going, I'm sorry if we're spli , if you're gonna have a box with you're subject name in? +Cos it's obvious +Mhm. +that it's a subject report, if you've got report +Yes. +right, says science or art and design or whatever +Well just put report! +Report will do. +And leave the title next to it. +Yes. +Yeah. +okay. +But will the +Altho , although if one is eventually going to talk about the report one could to make it clear to the parents that what one is a subject report and the other is a summate report. +Mhm. +Er, therefore make a distinction between the two parts of the report, +You mean rather then the , the report? +No, I think +Mm mm. +Ah! +We a we no +we agreed, we agreed a on a fi +We need to shift to to the procedure that we would probably have and a tell me if I'm wrong I thought there was a sort of general agreement without it being sort of firmly agreed that we were going to go for a format of subject specific reports still coming to form tutor who would complete some sort of general report, is that +Yes. +not what we had in mind? +And that general report would be in a sense a summate report or a form tutor report or a er, pupil management report, whatever title +Mm. +it is we're gonna +Mm. +use. +Mm. +So is is that the context of the word report Andrew, er, that you're using. +Well my feeling was that we had agreed that the parents would sent the subject reports +Yeah. +where they never have been sent before +Yes. +as well as the summate report. +Oh yes! +Yes , yes they would go as well I'm not +Yeah +saying +alright, yes +that would go as well! +Well I think that's certainly +And on that basis I'm not sure we need subject report in +just a report and subject in the box. +Perfect , perfectly logical that! +Yeah? +Mm. +But as a necessary +But we would still have a form tutor input i.e. a summation +Yeah , but +some chance for the youngster in a +but yo +with records of achievement i.e. +But do you agree that that everybody in each subject should fill in that? +Something like that. +Oh well wait till you get +round to that, we sti +Really? +Yes, oh yes, I think that should +I mean, it's a , it's the +be summarised in the form of some sort of +Giving what we're being asked to do we do need to have something that focus on general skills and abilities, we've gotta decide what they are. +Mm. +But, yes, I agree we need something like that. +But the big problem at present is that that form tutors get loads of information sent to them and then they +have to +summarise it, and an awful lot of what has been done by the subjects +It's wasted, +It's just wasted the form teacher! +Right, if this is going on +just keep it! +we said the last time, did we not? +That if this is going home then that sort of thing doesn't need to come from a form tutor, other than a sa er a sort of generalised one as well, if you like. +Aye, it's the form tutor one needn't +Mm. +needn't be, I mean once they've got all of this the form tutor one needn't be anything . +The form tutor can well can build in a lot of good practises that have been built in +The the form I se +over the years. +I'm I'm +I see the form tutor one as being now we've got hold of record of achievement as being part of the developmental process of a record of achievement, now our youngsters know what a personal statement is, form tutors are happier with a joint statement it's taken us four years +Three or four +three four years to get there but it strikes me that we can actually start moving towards that process, not a full sheet of a personal +No. +statement, but we can start moving towards a personal statement +You can +right the way across the school so we've actually got a standardised format +and everybo everybody's involved in it all the way. +And there's still no reason why in that sa er, joint statement that our subject reports +No. +to them needn't be a, er a starting point, a key for discussion between +Absolutely! +the child and the tutor. +I mean you could have, if you have basically what we're saying is that you have a whole load of of subject reports and on the top of it you've got form tutor report +Yes. +which is +basically er a summary of +A positive comment, an overall positive comment based on all +Su sa +the other reports. +summarising wha , the same sort of thing as they're gonna get in the fifth year of the +That's right! +to build up maybe you know, individual statement, joint statement perhaps on on the sheet +But it allows +Mm. +in keeping with, it allows that opportunity as you know +as a form tutor, somebody's been on a a a residential weekend +Mm. +to include the other things that we've done, so all I'm +trying to say is, it's in keeping with the philosophy of records of achievement. +That's right,, yes! +Their, their, their out of school activities +Yeah! +anything like that. +But but, you should also be be sure that the form tutor pro can clarify things for parents because although, no no matter how hard you try to make this erm, a clear and easily understandable document it's only clear and un easily understandable to us. +Yes, but all form tutors are gonna have to become aware of each subject's +Cos they're gonna be +you know they're gonna be +they are +they're gonna be summarising them a all the +They are. +time +That's right. +and hopefully it's not gonna change! +No, and it'll make it a lot easier for the form tha these are the same format +Mm. +So that they can do that +quickly and easily +Mhm. +and make it easier for the parent to understand whether this is good or bad. +Ah yes, it's just gotta the +Well I don't think, they don't +that choose +but sometimes +that change. +parents have come to me and said so and so's only got a C, it's appalling! +I think , I think that's very well laid out, I think that's quite self explanatory to +Er, for us it is, yes but +I think I think it's +Oh yeah! +reasonably clear for parents actually. +I I think one of the other points +Makes sense. +Quite a lot of parents. +Quite a lot of parents. +Yeah, okay. +One of the other points about it is that it will erm er, in in the minds of the parents the they will see this one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten er being used, poor, satisfactory, excellent and it will get them into the idea of what these levels +Mm. +are. +Yes. +And they will therefore be able providing it's it's used in that format +Oh yeah. +it will be able to interpret for them what these numbers mean in the middle bit. +Mm. +Mhm. +Don, do you envisage the er the general skills and abilities being done by pupils or pupils and staff together or +I thought, I I well, I don't envisage anything but I mean I would of thought that kids could fill it in in pencil and then we do the same as we did before a and and that the staff in some way put in their own. +Mhm. +Ca can we just look at a I don't know which way to to be specific or to look at the general first, can I just +a make some general comments about the, I mean I like that we talked about that before, I like the ten levels +Yes. +I think we need to bla , talk about what the general skills and abilities are. +Mm. +I wonder about the pupil comment being divorced from the staff comment I wondered whether they one should follow the other. +I would rather not have that on the subject reports but if it's going to be on i for the sake of coherence the comments should be together. +Mm you see I I it's it's trying to find the balance isn't it? +I I'm er ah I like to think that the youngsters have actually got some input into the report, I think it's important +Yes, I'm not saying deny that +but at the same time I would want to afford er, you as heads of departments er er everybody's heads of department a little bit of leeway what i what if, what wa wa we have to be careful about this that we set a standard but allow a little leeway because all departments are slightly different and want to approach things +Mm. +slightly differently and what I'm trying to say is I don't want the leeway to weaken the strength of the reporting do you know what I mean? +Yeah. +Mm. +And if you don't feel that you can fit in a pupil comment, you have to be very careful here because some people will take it as a cop-out and not do it and a that worries me and it has happened and I think it is important that the youngsters are actually given some guidance and the opportunity to do it. +You're +Yes. +saying you're not in a position to do that in the moment or you wouldn't want +No. +to do that? +No, I'm not saying that, I've +Have I got the wrong end of the stick? +I'm not saying it like that, what I'm saying is I would pref , yes, I would like them to be involved in it a as far as my subject reports are concerned I would like our reports that we do, we do involve the kids, I pass them out, we discuss them and I'll re-draft but I would not, rather not have their written sample on that piece. +Okay. +I think they get fed up and I don't think that a that language-wise they have the vocabulary in the school to be able to pluck out meaningful comments and you know, and go right across the curriculum there I think +dif let me finish! +Mm. +Er, it's difficult for them. +Erm, I think you should involve them but I think it'll be preferable if it was one to one with the form tutor i that time and the form tutor has taking an over-view +Mhm. +and they were taking over-view as well right? +Now that's what I'd prefer, but in every, you know the majority go against me and they want it in a as I say I I would, I think that it'd be better placed at the top. +Guidance? +I prefer the pu pupil comment to be honest. +You would like the pupils to to make their own written comment in there? +I'd also like the national curriculum levels to come straight underneath course one. +Yes. +You see I felt +Can we no ,ca +Yes, comments together. +can we just come back to the pupil comment business, one thing at a time for a moment +and can we try and get how people feel +the reason +about whether they want a pupil comment in. +The reason I'd put pu pupil comment where it is, is because so far as I was concerned the top half of that I was gonna, was gonna be filled in by staff it is a report. +Mm. +That's the top part the bottom part is open to negotiation and that's why I've put them altogether at the bottom. +Well +Mhm. +Don the staff comment one could come under the national curriculum levels if you +Yeah, you mean out +Yes. +outline then that +Yeah. +bit then staff comment? +Yes. +Can I come back to my original question, which was yo +Pupil comments. +you you want pupil comment +Yes or no? +Paul? +Andrew, your thoughts? +Yes, if we didn't have pupil comment we would miss some absolute pearls like Mr is a lying git! +And, you know only I couldn't live without that! +What was that word? +Git! +You've convinced me Andrew! +Was that +Is that +Bet he then! +is that, but you +Has it? +but you do have to remember as I say +I've got one I'll give you my book later on Angela! +you do have to remember at the same time that these documents would be going home and +Aha. +there is a a a level of er oh +Propriety? +yes that when you +An appropriateness! +yes, that +and +we need to follow. +Oh. +I would hope that if, if a parent saw er that er somebody had had that sort of attitude towards the staff that +Mm. +the parent would have the opportunity of making an appropriate +Mm. +It's not only that but if if if +No, it's not only that +if they if they did this i would it not give them practise at at being able to do the +Mm. +you know, the the report at the end of of, of five years? +You know +Angela's expressed a view. +I'm I'm saying the but not just stage +that's what all +Chaps! +Oh, er erm Alan, sorry? +Erm I'm half and half I I I go along with Angela in the main that the the kids in, generally speaking the kids that I've talked to don't want to put their own input a lot of them don't want to because, as Angela says, they cannot find the appropriate words and some of the others just write some some stuff that I would look at +and say I'm, you know I'm not very happy having that written on this. +I've had +But it's +science this year. +But with all due respect is some of that not to do with the guidance their receiving from us as teachers? +Certainly, I I've told you +Absolutely! +I have spent +But +a great deal of effort and time in enabling the children to write something meaningful +I I've let it in +Sure +you know im im improve their English language. +Sure. +Okay, Paul? +Surely we've working +from er statement banks for pupils for quite a long time and why +Can we +can't we, why can't we be picking out guiding, guidance as far everything +Alright, I +should be +I don't have to look, if I can just +It's all mechanistic to say that! +I don't have to look +It's all what? +Mechanistic you know +mechanistic +Oh yes I feel oh stop ! +I don't have to look too far back in there when we started this whole process, four or five years of throwing it all up in the air to say that I felt every pupil could comment in some way, something that they had enjoyed, something they felt they'd been successful at, something they felt they found difficult, something that had pleased them, surely every child could comment on wo , if it's just one of those things +Wha +but i it has then +And that's on every subject, that's the what Angela's, the point +No. +Angela's making +Yes +I think +it it be it becomes repetitive +They they get a +Yeah. +bit sick of this +Yeah. +you know! +Yo your +It becomes stale, they say I like this it was good! +Yes, I I I I +And things like that. +But is that not part of our job to get them to think and ? +Yes, absolutely, I agree with you! +Obviously I agree with you that we should be putting the kids in challenging situations where that they've gotta rise to the occasion and use language in an effective way, but I don't know whether this is the best way, these er er er, you know, a series of how much space of you got? +Whereas, if they were involved in the end where they sat with the form teacher +Mhm. +read the lot, I mean, look what they doing language-wise, they're reading, they're evaluating, they're projecting I mean,the that, they're doing quite complicated things there, and also hopefully there will be enough space where they have the opportunity to put something that is meaningful and they're involved in the dialogue with the form +Right. +teacher. +Paul? +I I, for pupil comment you could ea , quite easily have a joint statement there, or a joint comment whereby the +Or just statement. +there's no +Or just +real reason why +comments. +once a year that er a subject teacher and a pupil cannot sit down an and come up with a +Could +I take sometime. +Could we get round with that? +Could we get round that by, instead of saying staff comment and pupil comment make the space +Join them. +slightly larger and just say +Just say +statement? +Just say comment actually. +Comment. +Comments. +Mm. +Comments. +That's what +But I have to put back to you that the onus then falls on you and head's of departments to ensure that that space is used properly. +Oh it will be. +Okay. +Yes,that will. +And I have to say my experience it leaves me to doubt, I know I'm a cynic sometimes, that the space will not be used effectively and +Well +because people get under pressure and it's oh Christ I ain't got time so I won't bother! +I'm sorry +Well that's +if that's very cynical +and I know it's unfair in some context. +It is +Mm. +unfair! +Erm, I think that is unfair +We +Rod, yes I agree with Don, I think if you look at er what the work has gone in er in the fifth year for the last two or three years and the way that subject teachers are now approaching ranks of achievement I don't see yes it's . +It's not a process wi , that's not a valid comparison in the sense that in +No? +fifth, in fifth year and year eleven it's a different ball game altogether. +But why shouldn't staff put the same process into operation lower down the school? +I think beca I think because some don't actually transfer the skill, if I might, say that. +Yes but I mean, in some cases I've gotta say in some cases it is inappropriate to make a lot of comments with +Mhm. +a lot of pupils you are giving a lot of information +Mm. +here and here on the pupil +Mm. +in some cases it may be appropriate but if you're forcing people to make comments just because there's a space to do it +Mm. +then it loses a lot of it's values, yes. +Right. +But can't we think about re-phrasing that so we get this idea of this joint statement, some sort of dialogue on +Okay. +on there. +Co , more comments then? +Right. +I think that's a point to pick up on actually. +Mm, I +Andrew? +On this? +I'm never never one for for making work but on an a on although this isn't going to be called an annual report for most children it will be an annual event and I do feel quite strongly that for the child to be able to have the opportunity +Mhm. +of doing this and the opportunity is one where they are told to do and they will not miss the opportunity. +Well they're gonna +Is +be told to do that when they're doing this bit aren't they? +Mm. +When they're going to look +Mm. +at this bit and tick these boxes +Yes, but ticky boxes, and expressing themselves in other +Yeah but +ways the ways perhaps that are not +Sticky! +erm you know the, what they wish to express is not available on the +Mm. +ticky boxes erm +That sho sho should be there. +I know that our children by enlarge er their vocabulary doesn't extend to erm what er, polysyllabic words which which might really sum up for an adult what they've been going through, how they've enjoyed it but what is the terrible form we had last year in seventh year, was it seven G ? +Yeah. +Erm, George and I had that class shared between us, he took them for an hour a week and I did and i if there is a class that any of us had ever taken that would be unlikely to be able to write something meaningful of this kind +Mhm. +that would be the class and yet they all did cos George and I insisted! +But we helped them by suggesting +Mm. +words and er, they didn't lose it they, they they they went along with it and they, they actually, some came +Yeah. +up with some quite good descriptive language with some aesthetic terminology which we guided them with, but we didn't put the words in their mouths +Mm. +each one came out as a very personalised and individualistic comment which reflected that child. +Mm. +Some of them very negative, and how much they hated doing what they'd been made to do er, and others very surprisingly made it known that they had thoroughly enjoyed it. +Erm, but the , they were totally honest they didn't feel +Mm. +made to do anything else. +But +I would not have known that children who said they enjoyed it, were enjoying it +Mm. +cos they behaved so badly! +Mm. +And I hadn't enjoyed it ! +Maybe that's why they enjoyed it Andrew? +Mm. +Perhaps it was , in fact, one or two of them said, you know we like ripping the +piss out of Mr ! +I think you've also gotta look at it from the kid's point of view and perhaps I'm wrong here but, you know when you think, I mean,the these are going to be done very, you know er i i we got a sort of time limit, and kids are going to be told during perhaps a two week period +Mm. +right, science, right come on then let's get down to this! +Then they'll now go into a maths lesson let's go into this, they're gonna perhaps do that eight times, then they're gonna get a breather, then a few days time after that the form teacher's saying right, let's do it again and summarise it, I think it's too much! +Right, well I I part of me says,the the there are two aspects, the other side of the coin a little bit, if we talk about recording achievement and not recording failure, we here have an opportunity to point out to youngsters, encourage youngsters in that they are all capable of achieving in some way and to get them to write down that they have achieved, that's the other side of the coin. +I know it happens in individual subjects and there's the element of repetition but, you are at the same time making them reflect over a certain period and say I have not entirely wasted my time, there maybe some youngsters for whom it will be extremely difficult, and I except that but my thinking is that is you look hard enough you can find something that everybody has done at whatever level that they can take some pride in. +Aha, and they can do that in the summary! +I agree with you but they can achieve that in a different form, if that's your purpose it doesn't need to be achieved like this. +Yes. +There is no reason why, why the teacher and the pupil shouldn't be discussing this bit of it! +You're going to give them more of a ri , a more of a resource bank, if you like, right to pu pluck these, er these comments from +How will we class +if they take an +if +over view. +Right, if we don't do it that way how will we pass that information, which a a as I understand it you want passed to the form tutor? +Well it's go , it's all going to be there in the reports and surely the kids are going to able to form everything . +No it won't be on if if we use this as the document +reports. +for science +No I don't mm, yeah. +we're immediately saying now, well we need another sheet of paper because the information +No! +that we're talking about +No do that, right? +That's the only thing that's gonna be off, okay? +And then we as the form teacher sits why can't the kids look at the reports as well? +But will the form teacher be able to do as you would do in English and say, but look when you did that written piece on so and so it was goo, the form teacher will not have that detailed knowledge that you will have +We'll give the kids some prompts you know, what have you enjoyed? +What have bla bla bla +Angela I would have thought +er and involve that in part of the programme, you know, where they're, where they're involved in the whole report and assessment. +For for si for the six subjects? +Angela +Form teacher wouldn't have time to do that! +No, no you do I'm not making myself clear! +That's why it should be done in the +No. +No, what I'm suggesting is +lesson. +that the kids erm as an alternative, the kids could get some help on how to, look at all the reports and extract a couple of positive statements that's what the emphasis should be, not that he's a git! +Right? +No nothing on that, that sort of line but you +I think you're taking one example there actually Angela! +I think you're interrupting +A +me! +A , take a couple +Yes, I am. +positive statements right and they need a little bit of help on how to do that and then make some sort of generalised positive comment about themselves, that's what I mean. +Mm. +So +Or , or if that, if you disagree with that well, put pupil comment there, hyphen or whatever upon but lead that on, give them a bit of a leader into it. +Mhm. +Can I summarise? +Go on then. +We're getting nowhere fast +Well I ca +I mean can we +I think we are! +could I, could I make a suggestion? +No, that's important. +Could I make a suggestion? +Taking into account everything everybody said the formats as it is, course outline after course outline goes your individual bit, right? +Subject, but national curriculum levels on this one +Yeah. +sta sta staff comment comes out of there and that bit goes up then you have general skills and abilities and then below that you have a wider box which just says comments which will include a staff comment and may include a pupil comment as well cos because it's signed by both at the bottom. +Can I just check what you were saying there? +So, take the staff comment from there and instead of putting staff down put a generalised comment on this? +Just put instead of having staff comment and pupil comment, you got one box, comment. +Double the size of the box +Comments. +down there. +Comments. +So that +That would +that comes out +instead of being there +Can I have a word please? +Mm mm. +It's down there. +Paul? +I'd like, I think as it is at the moment is erm is superb! +And I think, instead of pupil comment it should be some sort of joint say. +But I think that's perfectly adequate. +And I think kids should be encouraged to erm think about themselves rather than just tick boxes and I think er, er er a group of sentences down here written by the form teacher, by the subject teacher and the pupil erm, as it's been done for about, for a few years, a good habit to get the kids into, erm especially as a record of achievement should start from year seven. +Mm. +Can I just ask then, if you're saying to be it should be a joint statement, but you +Mm. +think that format's alright, is that not a contradiction because if it's a joint statement and this format's alright you've got staff comment divorced from pupil comment? +I want the staff comment and I want the, a joint statement at the at the bottom. +But I want your opinion, I mean the sa , the the staff comment is going to be +Well you do exactly +repetition! +you do exactly the same on the erm on the record of achievement don't you? +You've got a a staff comment and then you have er a pupil comment which is really +Well +written in as a +No. +joint sort of +No no you have a pupil statement personal +in the +statement. +in the sa in the form, in the form when the form teacher does it. +You have a personal statement then the joint statement. +You don't have a staff comment and a joint statement. +But the staff comment is in the statement +I , in the subject specific. +Mm. +Right. +So you wo you would like to have it in a format similar to the the very final +Yes. +thing that they're aiming at so +Yeah. +they get used to the format? +Mm. +That's sounds very reasonable but I I er I I ha not having been at the level, form tutor +Mm. +but er you know +Yeah, I think +for some years, I've never done one of those. +I take what Paul's saying, I think +I'm not really with it. +I think there's a scale element cos we're talking one sheet here and it's a it's a much bigger exercise. +Okay right. +But I I I agree what you're saying, it's very valid. +Guidance then Paul? +Can , yeah, can we can we vote on whether we're going to improve pupil comment? +And then when that's decided let's decide +Well let's +upon the format. +get dead clear about what it is we're go actually gonna vote on +Right. +because it's we've gone a bi +On the +a bit round the houses. +Either in principle +Am I right in saying then i i is the first thing we need to agree on whether we're gonna have a staff comment, and a pupil comment on there is tha , is that the first decision? +I think everybody's in agreement about staff aren't they? +There's no question about staff comment on there? +No. +Right, fine! +Right. +Er , what do you mean there's no question? +Everybody accepts there should be a staff comment on. +Er, okay +and it's sold! +Fair enough, well, that's the point I was making. +The the the in order to get by pupils writing these er rather immature things that they write on the +Mm. +bottom of these reports why can't you make it into a a pu er er a a joint teacher pupil comment, it isn't just a, it isn't in the same form it's just the same that the pupil writes that with guidance +with teacher guidance, sitting next to the teacher. +I think we're losing track of what this actually is Paul, there are, you're trying to do two things at once what you're trying to do, I think is use it as a learning process for children but this is an annual report for parents and I think that part of it a at least surely must be a report by the sa member of staff, by the department on how the child has done, by the member staff. +By all means give the, give the kid a chance to, to put his side of the story if you like, but there must be er +Well we've got all that there haven't we? +Right. +Yep. +Yeah? +I know. +The the form that we have currently the er sta statements are they called at the moment? +Yeah. +Erm, I know that the way that I do it every time +it looks rather like a is what we use? +Is that the one you want as a form tutor? +Er, it's subject +Oh. +Then I haven't got a front have I? +That +Er +one? +Yes, it is there. +Yeah. +Er, the comment here the way that I have been used to doing these I found that I I like it and the kids can +You write yours +and they write theirs? +I I invariably do write something +Mm. +So do I. +and the kid invariably writes something down. +Well that's what I suggested ten minutes ago! +And I like that form. +Yes. +Whilst you've suggested everybody else has a right to their opinion and doesn't make yours the solution! +And I think having, as a separate issue, the staff comment as a +! +a separate box er, you know, er is is is not necessarily appropriate. +Sometimes, if the child writes in there first I say, I concur with what so and so has said, Well done or something like that. +Would +Sometimes the child isn't really very good at writing and I will write something encouraging and the kid says I have liked my art well, yeah +Can I, can I +that's all they can do +can I then put to you +in fairness. +I think, what Don's saying is +It's got differentiation though. +that we have a comment area +Testing, testing, testing ! +that we have a, differentiation he said,differenti +Differentiation. +we have a +Differentiation. +comment area when we, these go out there would be guidance which would say their staff must make their comment in that space +Yeah. +how the other part of space is used could be left to individual departments on the basis that +Of discretion. +discretion or it is hoped that pupils would be afforded the opportunity to make their own, if +Involved in the process. +you wish so, they must certainly be involved in the process +Yes. +or it could be an agreed joint statement and written by the member of staff. +Whichever way you are. +Oh yeah. +So it allows +So what does that mean? +What you're saying is +basic comment +yo you're gonna put comment? +We will put +No then +comment +call that statement then. +It's gotta have something before it though. +It's qui , comments! +Well +Comments by who? +Well +Comments and statement? +Well, if you put comments and +Mm. +a me a member of staff writes the comment and signs it it's obvious who +has written the comment, i.e. the member of staff has written it, you could then have something underneath if you wish to, that is the pupil's, that will be obviously the pupil's from the different writing, or the style of the writing er or you could open it up with we have agreed, if you wish to one make it a joint +Aha. +statement. +Aha. +And we would put that down as basic guidance to staff when +completing reports. +Yes. +Yes, yeah. +In other words it leaves the format open to the department concerned? +Let the cat in Alan +But +would you and I'll get the food, I'm a bloody expert cats +and that's, sorry, and they acted immediately there. +! +Terry, thoughts? +I mean, we've not sort of included you +No I've I mean, I know that in the primary schools nowadays they do allow, or do let the ki the children actually write their own reports as well. +Mm. +Cos they're actually coming up from +this year +Mm. +I mean, they +It's the records of achievement. +so they're doing it from the age of possibly eight or nine some people, certainly down right the way through +Mm. +the bottom of the school. +I've +But I , I I still agree with +It's young to be doing it. +what somebody said that the, sometimes the pupil's comments are kind of as Andrew pointed out earlier that er +Yes. +It's not the sort of things that +but +you wanna see on a on a +Yeah. +on a report, on a +But I mean +but with guidance +Yeah, yeah +You see I +That's right! +I agree with what you're saying but when I've done it before and involved the pupil in such a report I put it on a separate sheet, so that +Yes +there's been +Yeah well that's what the primary school's done. +ma , this is prior to all this you see +Yes. +Yes. +and we had all this we've got +Ha I have to go along here some, to some of you with a bossy statement of you know, this inclusive as opposed +Yeah. +to exclusive bit +Mm. +Mm. +and it allows the opportuni it affords the opportunity to be inclusive and I think that's important. +Well a po what about the reverse? +Sorry? +Put it on the reverse of the sheet. +We then get into all sorts of photocopying +production problems, I mean this is why I was asking did you want another piece of paper? +I know it's a bit penny-pinching +Mm. +Oh! +but erm, because +Mm. +that's very +But Rod, I I sti I think it is also is good preparation for year eleven. +Mm. +Oh yes! +that's a +they should be thinking about it right from the word go. +Oh absolutely! +Yeah. +Absolutely! +As long it is joint, I mean there's no way that yo that you could have something sent home to parents +Right, +with a kid's comment, maths is crap! +You know , yeah +You know you would tear it up wouldn't you? +Ye well I would, yes. +Yes! +But so and lo , on the other hand though I'd +But I I go on sorry Paul +a lot of the the statements these kids make are quite reasonable, well written comments +Yes! +Mm. +so wha what Andy's done, and what other people have done have pitted, picked out a few great examples, but I would say that erm the majority are quite reasonable comments, if, if perhaps a little bit simple at times, I don't know. +Does seem . +Andrew? +I would , I would tend to say the majority aren't, aren't interested in their, in their own comments. +Erm, well +But +that depe , a lot of, sorry Rod! +A lot of that depends on on the, on the staff input +Mhm. +Mhm. +and how they motivate +In school +the kids, as Andrew has pointed out that, as as he and George operate. +Last comment from Andrew and then we move on cos we've got a a an agreement in in what we're gonna put in, we haven't got an agreement as to where we're gonna put it but Andrew comment? +Well I'm prepared to say th th that I that I think that we do do good practice in that we do sit down with the children and help them, each individual along with the with our joint statements. +Never the less, it is the child speaking we don't put the words into their mouths and as such when they speak and when they write it down, it's one of the, possibly one of the few chances of having primary evidence of how the child is at er, writing er, on an official document +Mm. +er, progressing through the years I doubt whether samples of the child's work are kept officially in any other form or anywhere else +They are. +their handwriting and so on. +They are. +Maybe they are in English but +Mm. +but not an official document as opposed to a subject, I mean, I keep all their pictures, you know that +Mm. +they do. +But it's a central +a central +Mm. +easily accessible +Yeah, that's fair enough. +by anybody form so, here we have each year, six examples of the child's writing and thought processes and opinions at least, well I, I said six because I ca don't really know how many subjects a child will be taking or writing for +Mm. +but it is primary evidence and I think as primary evidence it has an extra value to the child's records, and to the school's records, over and beyond what +Mm. +we have ever had or thought about, practically. +On the other hand each time they get a report they're going to have ten pieces or their work on each report +Right! +which I'd never have thought. +Tha , that is what,i isn't that what I just said? +Yeah. +Mm. +And then they're gonna have an eleventh one when they, when they do it with the form tutor. +The form tutor and . +Are they going to do with the form teacher +Yes, once a year. +tutor as well? +Mm. +Well once a year but they never +Yeah. +have to be a little parcel won't it? +Because we need to go through that +An example +summation joint statement process. +Can we run through +this again then so we +Right. +can decide? +Let's come back to it then, so we've agreed a basic heading, although we need to play with that a bit, name, year tick indicates end of end of key stage +Ooh mm! +No, I'm not too sure about that! +We well +Yeah ,tha that that's just +Let's just leave it for the moment , let's just leave it for the moment. +Course outline I think we're all agreed, should be at the top er, that is important we've now agreed a heading and comment we've got a e enough agreement that says that, it will be just called comment, but guidelines will need to be produced to go to staff erm +Rod, is that national curriculum levels or is that staff comment after course outline just there? +Well that's what I want to get from you now if I can. +Oh sorry! +Carry on. +We've agreed comment, where would the comment be placed, given that, I think we all agree we want national curriculum area in, we need a general skills and abilities in, where would the comment be situated, at the bottom underneath everything, between the two or what? +A at the end of the main staff input. +Yes. +So that should go there. +So are you saying +with the suggestion +so as it sits now between national curriculum +No, I'm asking you there but I'm asking you when's the me , end of the main staff input? +That's there isn't it because that's +Mm. +supposed to be a joint activity there? +Mhm. +So I would suggest that it would go there. +So I would +Between national curriculum levels and general skills and abilities as it sits at the moment? +Yes. +Mhm. +Course outline national curriculum levels, staff comment. +Erm I would differ er, with that opinion because I would say that the comment as a joint comment would erm have to deal with the general skills and abilities +Mm , oh yeah. +which the child er erm, generally speaking does with, they're getting teacher guidance. +So, the comment, joint statement +Which refers to what? +Will be about everything, not just the top bit but would include comment of the whole +for that. +Right, I I'm sorry I didn't understand I thought that you +That's okay. +that was gonna be a se separate +No. +staff +No. +if it's a joint comment, yes it should go at the end. +So com wi th but we've agreed, I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive and boring and the rest of it but comment, there would be a staff comment, how you use the rest of the space, assume there's a double space is now left with you given the guidelines are issued. +Well we're gonna say staff comment are we? +Are we? +No, it would just be comments. +yes +Yeah. +And the first part of it that would be staff comments. +The first part of it must be a staff comment. +Right. +And +And +it will be double the size +Well it won't be double the +it'll be +size it'll be +it'll be staff +Yes. +comment plus, pupil comment +Will it ? +so it'll be like +Yeah. +that. +we will just put it as a space. +one big block. +So it'll be left up to the +A space with +individual +That's right. +It'll be as a space. +Okay. +So +And is this, are are the I know this again +just minor, but if the staff produces a comment are they going to sign that and also sign the bottom or are we just gonna leave it that the parent will be able say +I think it's pretty obvious who's written what. +That's what I'm saying! +Well is it? +I say,Ro Ro Rod, there's gonna be +Yeah. +sorry, there's gonna be some people who don't even ha have no pupil comment on at all then? +They have no pupil input? +Course they will! +It will have +Well no +pupil input on that bit. +There's gotta be a pupil input, there's no way you can do this +Why, why do you say that? +I'm just er interested, that's all. +So the +No,the they'll be a pupil input, it might well be that as a department there's a decision that the pupil would not write +Yeah. +on the report. +Right, okay. +But it does, you are not precluded from allowing a youngster to write on a report. +I'm I'm er er being a little naughty and trying to steer a middle road, if you like +In other words it could be correct me if I'm wrong +I, what I don't, if Andrew obviously feels he's got a strong process that suits him and I don't want to knock that on the head. +Alan, I'm sorry if I'm sort of trying to put you at the end and continue and I I don't intend it like that. +I don't mind, I just know +Alan +exactly where I stand on this! +Well Alan sort of has a feeling that he doesn't want that to happen and I want to fi , I, what I don't like, I I mean I go , personally I go with Andrew's feeling but I don't want, so I don't want to exclude that again +Mm. +I want, I want if +I want to do both. +to afford the opportunity +I +at the same time, there are people who sit in the middle ground +Mm. +and I think it's perhaps important to start with that we go with something that's a little bit open-ended that we can review in a years time er, perhaps a little bit later and say well look we have shown that we can do it valuably er the proof is in the pudding, it now beholds everybody to do it this way. +Yes. +Is is that, is that reasonable? +Yeah? +Agreed. +Yeah. +Right? +Grand! +Er, well I I don't want you to feel that that er maths department +No, I'm not saying +don't want +no. +pupils involved because every piece of work that a kid does is discussed with the pupil the only thing that I was a little wary about was a pupil actually putting down Mr is +Right. +a so and so, er maths is crap and so on and you know, that's that's going to make this into something that we wouldn't want +Right, I I I'm I'm +anyone to go, you know to see. +I do apo I wasn't trying to put you as the bad boy on that end of the continual, I wasn't Alan, I'm +No. +We could be here for about +He's a bad boy ! +So, so we're saying that there will be a staff comment, then there maybe nothing else or there maybe a pupil comment or there maybe a joint statement? +Mm. +That's right. +That's right. +So that's every system incorporated. +Staff comment followed by one +It's very vague though innit? +No. +Well it's not! +So we'll leave it and down three formats possible. +mm. +And that's going at the bottom we're saying there right? +Mhm. +Right at the bottom? +Yep. +Yeah. +So that bit that goes there and that bit goes rou , put that back in again that's right +Yeah. +bottom, it's gonna be called comment? +Mhm. +Mhm. +Are you gonna issue guidelines or just leave it? +Yep. +No, there will be guidelines and you're in the know anyway so you'd be telling at your curriculum area meetings, you'd be saying +Cascade +as opposed to +Cascade +Ca , oh! +But you're not going to +Ca cascading! +Cascade! +Cascade! +But you're not going +You're no , not the sweat pouring off my brow! +No, but you're not going to you're just gonna leave it open? +Yeah, for the reasons that I've said to +You're going to +we can evaluate it later on a +Okay. +without you know, having to +Well it's not that open because we're saying there must be some staff something written by staff +Yeah. +or are we not? +Oh yes we are aren't we? +Yes. +Staff have to write their comments +Ah +Something +there is then an option after that +and involve the child. +as to whether it's a joint +and involve them they must be involved mustn't they? +I I'm sorry I just take that as automatic, I don't even think about it any more. +I think you should write that down okay, that means pupils +Well +must be involved in in some form +I I do and I don't that's your job is, can I be naughty, it's your job as cacs to insist that that's happening. +So you would advise, Rod that, you would +I I, no it's go er er youngsters are involved in it, I mean that's just my assumption, it's our rationale, well it +at the moment. +I don't know where the rationale is but it's written +I'm +that's it's everybody's responsibility. +Point the finger Paul, come on! +Yes. +I'm not into that Angela, I couldn't do that! +I can't honestly +Why? +They they are meant to do it and don't do it, they should be told to do it. +Mm. +By? +Exactly! +Mm. +Yes, but there is still the the the thought that a me , I'm sorry ! +A a a member of staff may feel that they want to say something about a kid, and it does not necessarily have to agree with what the kid +Here here! +That's right. +You know, I mean, I might be saying Jimmy has wasted his time this year +Oh yeah! +then he will have under me have to say, Jimmy does not agree with this +Yes. +he feels, and so on, but there has got to be something that is obvious staff comment. +Er +Yes, absolutely! +Well yes I, I put down comments like that +and that is, that would be exactly the right way to do it! +that the kids don't agree with +You say Jimmy +I think it's this +the I sa I put my reasons forward +because Jimmy could then sign that +and they're, they're they're still involved aren't they? +Aye? +Disagreement's involvement +Mhm. +isn't it? +Yeah, I'm +I mean the number of times, Alan, I've read quite a few +Got your facts right! +I've come across we agree er, or Jimmy feels now once somebody writes Jimmy feels it's, it's almost intrinsic that, is that the word I want? +That, there is da , yeah it's a word, there is disagreement. +I might be to you but it's this is going to a parent! +Yes. +I I I'd agree with Alan, I'd +Yeah, that's right. +I don't see that that pu that the the staff comment, which is gonna be the first thing need have anything to do with the child at all there is ample place +Oh +if you think +within +Shoot that man! +Jesus Christ! +Well in the sense that they've been involved in it. +No +No but the +I don't they need to be involved in it whatsoever! +They've read what you've said and then say well I don't agree with that and you can write down that. +Absolutely! +A staff comment is +But surely that is involvement, I'm not understanding what you're putting forward! +No I think +No. +it's the way the words have been used that we're interpreting wrong. +If I've got to write a comment for a start +What sort of weasel word then? +then I want to write a comment, I will not necessarily involve the child with +No. +what I'm writing he will +Er +then see that, or he will have +Mm. +already seen it because he will be involved in that bit. +Aha. +Yep. +Mm. +Well +But if she does see it +Well if she does see it, yes. +Yes, yes, she! +subtle ah? +Alright. +If she does see it and disagrees with it +that's involvement isn't it? +Mm. +Yes. +Mhm. +We're agreed then. +Okay +Might not agree with this +I I I think we've I think we've covered that. +Right. +I think we've flushed that one haven't we? +Well I think so +Well there you are! +I mean I don't know how you +It's hard work this isn't it? +I need some tea ! +Anyone need a cup of tea +I I think +on the ! +It's only half past two! +We've only been here three quarters of an hour ! +Well we've got ten pages to do, we're only half way through the first page man ! +No, we haven't , no we haven't we we're okay because +that have been there for years haven't they? +But it does need cleari , unless we get some sort of consensus, and it behove you to say look this is +it's my belief but there are beliefs, I mean it does behove you to present +Yes! +what other departments feel to your to your people, because wha , you do have to be careful about the indoctrination, this is what I believe so it's right, we've gotta we do have to strike a balance. +I mean I've got my own thoughts, I have to be careful here that you know I've got to try and pull together what you think because at the end of the day it's it's very important that it reflects the way we work in school, not the way I perceive I we work in in school because you're the people at the chalk first. +I think a , that there's another point that we should all remember and that is that it shouldn't just be our opinion either, we are sort of told from high certain things +By who? +that we have to do in a certain way, in a certain format and certain things have got to be included and we've got to take that in hand as well. +But we've done that in the brief that we've we've worked on. +Yeah, Oh no, I know, I know, I know! +We've already got past +Yeah. +that stage. +Yeah, alright! +Fair enough! +I think haven't we? +But after what she said +Sorry , I'm being defensive, sorry! +Mm. +Right so we got staff comment, it will either be a pupil er, statement written by the member of staff or written by the pupil themselves or a joint statement, they were the three +Or no on both. +On all three. +I it will be staff +Did we alter it? +Yeah. +it could be staff alone, it could be staff and pupil, it could be staff and joint. +Okay +the only thing it can't be just +But they're going to be +no comment. +See. +Right, we will make, move progress. +Thank you for that, er it's not, it's not easy ground and I do appreciate with which it's happening and the lack of sarcasm that is occurring. +Ha! +Ha! +Ha! +See this, this bit here this, the whole presentation this this part of it here +Mhm. +which has got to be this +Is that the next bit? +the national curriculum +which we +cor! +We're going onto to know. +I assume that's where we're going onto now . +Yeah. +Okay? +Er +We've then got two areas to look at national curricular levels and general skills and abilities. +Can I assume that we sort of are happy with the format that there should be a national curriculum level and there should be a general skills and abilities? +I can make that assumption? +Yes. +Yes. +Okay. +We canno , we cannot disagree about this next little bit can we? +Right , the national curriculum levels I am nearly o of the opinion to be almost glib and say there will be a space that is about a third of a sheet of A four, it's down to every department to do their own I nearly said, I don't care, I often do care +but that's down to the professional expertise of dis departments. +Mm. +Is it or isn't it? +No, it's all +No, no, no , they're all exactly the same! +I mean, there are four attainment targets, there are three attainment targets +That's right. +Yeah. +they are these and tha +You're obliged +it's just the number of boxes that you're gonna change! +Is everybody happy with that layout for that? +Yes. +Yeah! +Ecstatic! +Mm mm mm. +Mm. +Nearly. +Go on Andrew. +God ! +We nearly go agreements! +No, it's important! +What time does this +Erm +session end by the way? +Half three. +I dunno,i is there no tea there? +Half three. +It's called +We'll we'll have a +Cup of tea! +Hang on Angela! +Half past three today. +There's an awful lot of information that I've put in there which I've photocopied and much reduced from the official documents +Mm. +which gives a great deal more information about the attainment targets than the er, two or three words +But ha they have got headings though haven't they? +Yeah they have. +I could have put the headings on as you have +Mhm. +and +to take the whole bloody lot out! +Ha! +Right +Oh!pages. +you you , absolutely, we'd go on forever and ever and ever and er, therefore, I I, I withdraw all of that stuff but, in a way I feel that it would be helpful for parents, probably who haven't seen this information and might like maybe a sample +You mean you would like to present it in a different way? +some somewhere , yeah, maybe not on here +Mm. +not on each subject but, maybe on the inside cover of er, a presented re , er set of sheets but wha wha , you know, however it's gonna be sent or on the back of the summate sheet or something. +You know, for your information the attainment targets have quite lengthy descriptions here are one or two examples, here's a maths one, here's an English one, here's a +Mm. +a science one, for instance because, I don't suppose many of the parents will have seen o all the thickness of the document will +No. +they? +they they've only had the taster because I sent home the erm a map of of D O S, D E S whatever I'm supposed to call it now. +D S E. +D S E. +D S E. +D S E. +I sent home the the that document in with the national curriculum's er report. +Which +S +I've now lost! +So in other words, some suggestion that these headings +Are indicated more. +have a lot more , yes +Mm. +indicator of of quite a rich scene and, that the +That's a nice image. +Yeah, thank you. +Anyway, +But you're in great danger there because you'll +you will beco , it will come like this +Yeah. +and a parent will say, level four maths? +No, multiplication tables find and average and know how to work out an area, that's a doddle! +You know, I mean, there's an example of what they're saying. +I think +Level four, this is what you do in maths +But that's only one bit of it isn't it? +you know , and that is a little piece of maths and tha , I mean, that is absolute rubbish! +It's only a very small part of level four. +Because they they've condensed it and just put in a few little bits and pieces! +Mm. +So you're against that because you think it trivialises it? +You cannot, you cannot give them the the national curriculum book! +I think there's an element, Paul comment? +I think we could all do what Andrew's suggesting quite easily er I could do it for Geography, erm, I just think it's making a lot of extra work. +Garbage. +Yeah. +Mo more than it needs? +Yeah. +Can I just say then we seem to have agreed that that standard Andrew points been taken on board and dismissed out of hand +No, I'm not cos I think it's quite a valid +No I'm being +point he's making +I'm being mhm. +Erm +Don +It's whether we've +I know you carry a lot of valuable stuff in your briefcase. +Can I borrow your briefcase? +Mm. +Thank you. +Ca , can I make a point about the tick now? +Mm. +Since we're at that point. +I put that inversely i i he's put down inversely fro from what we will we are obliged to do we're obliged to say that these levels ha er have been erm have not been checked by SATS +Mhm. +if they have been +Mm. +but I thought to th this way it was +Mhm. +you know,we we're obliged to put that little bit in you know, there's year seven, year eight, year ten the there won't be a tick in there and so the the these levels will be whatever you've decided they are in the way that you asses but at the end of the key stage this report will go out in Au i in September now following SATS. +Mm. +Or it'll go out in July God knows how we're gonna do it after SATS in er a a ye at year fourteen. +So we've got to have that statement in and we've got to differentiate it some way or from the +But if you had your name and year at the top you could actually put a simple statement along the bottom because you'll only be issuing it for year nine +And eleven. +well, will you because year eleven is automatically confirmed by levels +G C S E. +at G C, G C S E? +But it is end of key stage four. +But we will have a record of achievement, this system will not be used for years +Mm. +year eleven, will it? +So we wouldn't need it, so all I'm saying is you could put in one simple statement at the bottom, year nine de dun de dun de dun and will confirmed by SATS external test. +This will not be used at er end of key stage four or something? +Well you use this reporting system in year ten but year eleven +We'll have record of achievement. +you'll have a record of achievement and prob this this yo you'll have your own format, your amended format +but aren't we obliged to to produce this erm, in +September. +September +Mm. +of of of the +Yeah. +Following year, yeah. +end of that key stage four? +Yes, but it will be it will be this bit of it that you know, the bit that comes +Right. +from the from the boards that we'll get, cos there'll be thousands and thousands of bloody numbers! +Oh! +That, that you're gonna send out to parents, they're gonna look at all these numbers and oh +The end of key stage form +can be different, different format. +Mm. +That +Mm. +the the bits of that tie into +Let's wait to, wait till +Yeah wait. +the thing arrives before we +Mhm. +So what I'm saying is this will appropriate for year seven, eight, nine and ten +We're obliged to +and a +say sorry! +Go on +Right. +Don. +We're obliged +What's that +to say that if er, it is not a SAT year, we are obliged to say these levels have not been confirmed by SATs so the only in year nine we, we don't need to say that. +But I think i it also would highlight if you put it as a sentence +Right, fair enough. +that +rather we kept it in. +for year seven, eight parents it is coming, if you like, that at the end of year nine it's the end of the key stage and it's an important time de dun da, they're warned for two successive years. +I know it seems a little bit i idealistic, don't know what the word is I want but it is for warning +that what's happening that the end of ninth year is an important time in terms of er er measuring er their pupils er relative success. +So I'm suggesting that that, we could take that box out er er and this be re-phrased as a sentence, either at the top +So, +or underneath I don't mind which. +Okay? +How about this then, these levels have not been confirmed by SATS except in the year nine report? +Well, +I I don't think you need the first +No I don't. +part in. +No. +It's negative. +well indi individual levels will be confirmed by external tests +For year nine pupils these levels will +be confirmed by +When do they get the results for SATS? +SATS. +Don? +Mm? +When do they get the results for SATS? +July. +So +You mark them yourself. +right, okay. +Send a report in don't you? +Cos we've gotta report on year nine at the en , in before +Mm. +September or sorry, in July or +Mm. +immediately we come back, which is something else we have to sort out with our heads now. +The end of August I think it is in, which means then in July doesn't it? +Mm. +For year, so the sentence will be Don, for year nine pupils er, these levels er what did you put? +Have been confirmed by SA +Will have been future perfect. +And yo and you wouldn't be indicating that that's end of key stage three? +You didn't put it there! +Well for, you know,the these levels will have been confirmed by external tests. +What about year nine? +It goes year nine pupil +I think you've gotta put SATS in, sorry. +The levels of year nine +Alright, external test bracket SATS! +Right? +You're an awkward bugger you! +That's another technical term! +Yo you didn't put will have been confirmed in there but you want it in there now and then you put SATS bracket external test,extern , I can't even say it, and now you wanna put external test bracket SATS! +He's tired! +He's gorgeous! +There's another technical term. +Right, so we don't want that one, we want this one? +Have been confirmed by SATS. +They've been confirmed ! +Been confirmed by SATS ! +Okay. +Would you not be indicating end of key stage three somehow? +Or do the does everybody +Alright, for year nine pupils brackets, end of key stage three. +Yeah. +Okay? +It's important these categories are set +set out for us. +Mm +So +Er +so we don't want this box any more then? +So +What about this then? +This box +Yes +can disappear? +That box will go and you'll have name and year +That's home. +spread out more across +No, I've put report down there. +I've put report down there, cos then you have science, report math's, report and I put Ralph Gardener Community High School cos then I need space for community. +I would put Ralph Gardener Community High School report on the heading, I would put name, year and your subject there or, subject whatever I would tighten that up +Right. +a bit. +Mm. +I think that that +The lettering will be thinner +needs to stand, it's awful! +Mm. +Ralph Gardener High School, Community High School +It's a +needs to be, in my opinion, on it's own above the rest. +Report +Mm. +Andrew's a a little bit better on layout than me and I'm +What yo you want Ralph Gardener High Scho , Community High School by itself? +I bi I just thought it was +Where do you want report then? +Well Ralph +Gardener Community High School hyphen report. +Have I got space you see? +Will that not go on +Community School. +the top? +Don't see why not. +I'm going back a step but I think it's +What do you mean? +important. +You're gonna tr er, well no nothing else will fit in that page but no eno not the package that you use +Ralph Gardener Community High +School report. +Well we won't necessarily be using your package for doing this. +Mhm. +Fine! +Right, you use yours cos I'm not there! +who whose gonna do it then? +Well +I vote you! +I'm I'm I was gonna come to, Andrew's made an offer but +volunteered a long +Right. +time ago. +that might, might er er erm it's we can be your system , what I'm saying is +Is it yours? +. +Don't even know where it is! +Oh Terry you mean. +Oh no, just +That's alright +sitting outside the kitchen. +Ah! +Those two +A yes or a no? +It's It's tonight's supper! +Does Ralph Gardener Community High School hyphen report is the heading at the top. +Mm. +Yes? +Mhm. +Okay. +Then below it you would have da da, year and somehow the subject fitted in on a line across, below it? +So you'd have +What for? +name, year and subject would go in there in that box +that's been left free. +Do we agree that it should be big like that? +I think it, I I like the +Yeah! +idea of it +Yeah. +the su the subject +Yes. +stands out. +Yeah, that's right . +Er, do you want the subject er, lettering the size as that? +This was Andrew's +No, I I I would like +I'll sort that out. +Yeah. +I like it like this. +I I think probably we'll be in a situation where Andrew will do a knock up +Well I think we need it smaller . +there will be several formats that we can agree on at a later date. +Nice and big. +wallpaper Paul? +Yep. +Lovely jubbly! +Thank you very much, we've knocked that on the head. +General skills and abilities we're down to now. +Which is gonna be a debatable one I would of thought. +Can we agree er the layout? +Ten point scale +Yeah. +poor, satisfactory and +excellent, scale and ability what we need to agree on is the skills and abilities that we want in there. +Would you use excellent rather than good. +Well no ten, level ten is bloody good! +Excellent , yeah. +Okay right, bloody good then, okay! +Right, bloody good ! +And can we have crap instead of poor? +Yeah. +Crap, crap and bloody good, yes and er middling! +Why do you always have poor? +Weak? +I want to convey that meaning but I would rather not use that word. +It is poor. +Yes, I know but we're sensitive +I've seen some words we we +Not me! +I would really call spade +On on the ten point scale Alan +a spade! +wha what's written? +Is there not something, not poor something written ha, not W ! +Working towards +! +You can't be working towards there! +No the I tell you what Andrew's saying about poor +Weak doesn't fit in. +No. +Doesn't fit in, how do you mean? +Doesn't fit in with satisfactory and excellent. +Mm, no. +No, it's gotta be poor. +Aye. +Now hang on +Pathetic! +Crap! +Shit ! +! +The boy is shit ! +Altogether, mm. +Un un unsatisfactory instead of poor +Oh ! +Oh! +another word instead of satisfactory. +Safe. +Oh! +Aye, we're going back to +The norm +making fair progress now aren't we ? +Yes, that's right, yes. +He's making fair progress. +One in two, one in two ! +! +There's in somewhere. +I'd like to think of something. +Let's think of something. +Hey, come on let's cause , one, level one and two are national curriculum scales for somebody in our school is poor! +There's no value in it, don't start it off in that position as though there's an integral in it, all the +Longman's Dictionary of +all the same! +Life's a little bit more complex than that +Is it Longmans? +Is that a Longman's one? +that's merely an over-view. +Yes it's Longmans! +Is that a Longmans dictionary? +It certainly is. +That I see before me? +Could I call for +Massination , a plan for doing harm. +Can, can we leave that word alone for for a moment cos I think it's a bit of red herring er, to some degree. +Pretty awful! +It will stand unless er somebody can come forward with a very positive suggestion the mind's +! +blank at the moment. +How about pretty awful and pretty +Can +! +Can can, can we look at the skills and abilities? +Yes sir. +Cos you know this list is as good or as bad you want to make it. +Erm effort we have that in probably +Yes. +everybody accept +Mhm. +effort? +There yeah. +Mhm. +Angela? +Yep, that's fine, mm. +Yeah? +Er we don't have concentration at the moment erm, I'm not sure +Question mark. +Does that fit +Yes I'm not sure about that. +what we mean by concentration er, myself. +Mm. +Actually +Ju +I made them up just in the spur of the moment. +Well that's fine! +Mm. +That's no no sweat. +Sorry I haven't +Behaviour? +it up. +Yep. +Yeah. +Mhm. +Yes . +Er +I wrote following instructions because I wanted to somehow or other impart the ability to actually er, do something other than just er, to do something on their own, you know to actually work on their own. +Ability to actually do something rather than just copy something to follow instructions means they've got to actually do a ste step-wise thing. +Right? +Yeah we I must admit, would a, would a parent, I mean I was at a very simple level, following instructions, go and get that ruler Jimmy? +Aha. +In other words you know i in a sense vidable +Do doing as doing as +Vidable. +they're told! +Yes. +Yes. +Mm. +Doing as they're told. +Mm. +Yeah. +I I know what you're saying and it's different to the way I'm interpreting it. +That's it, we need to follow a set of step lies, instructions becoming more difficult as you go on that what was intended. +But you don't want to give the impression that our children are not . +That's the old one. +Mm. +Yes, active right, okay. +Involvement. +It must be there cos it's +Involvement. +underneath that Longman's +Alright. +dictionary look. +Right. +What about, what do you want Paul, sorry? +Sorry, can I some of the old can have some +Oh they're there yeah. +Yeah, I'm . +What about a word like involvement? +The other thing Don is what are the gen , what are the the erm skills and abilities, you see there is a mathematical theme, what are the, literacy, we're supposed +Yeah, we've got, yeah that +to be addressing those. +yeah that's got to go in there I think. +Have you got to say mathematical skills? +No. +No. +No. +I can't remember what that one is. +I don't think +Aye not subject +I think, I think +a specific +I think, yes, no I ju +No there +No +are general skills +Yes. +there are six or seven +Mm. +they're in the bottom of mind +they've gone completely! +But would we not be calling +Yes, and I can't remember +it numeracy rather than mathematical +Yes. +skills? +Alright. +Alright,no no if you say numeracy then they'll know what it means but erm I fe I felt that numeracy and mathematical skills would not be applicable to all, I mean, I don't think it might +No. +be applicable to you, but +Right, right sorry! +? +Okay! +Er, it might not be applicable to talents or erm hand spans or things like that but I certainly would want to include it, it might be very important in, in my subject. +And I would like to be able to include it. +Er, I think we would, oh! +See, I think we're obliged to to now say something about erm these general skills, I think in light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks +Mm. +there should also be in there something like grammar and spelling. +No, I totally disagree with that! +And certainly not in the light of what's been said in the last couple of weeks that's +Why? +extremely questionable! +What are the hell are they +What +What is that? +The +I mean if we're gonna discuss that that needs to be, you need to go over that in more detail. +Is is is is there not an element that hinges round orally to do with the +Yes. +ability to +orally +speak? +yes er, and literacy that's something different. +Mm. +Oh come on now! +I mean the government is pushing er spelling a as as something which is very important spelling is going to be part of all course work as well as all examinations now! +I'm not denying that. +Well therefore, it's important to everybody! +I'm not denying that. +Therefore we better comment on it! +Well, no what I'm, what I'm denying is I'm questioning your assertion on what's been happening in the last couple of weeks that we should react to that on a pa on er er report that hasn't been released, right? +That's been partially responded to some people suspect for political reasons and rushing to that on report and I think we need to consider that in a more way. +But don't you think that spelling is important for everybody to ? +Of course I do! +I think spelling's +Well why not ? +important. +Angela I seem to rem +The wrong one. +remember that just a few weeks ago that you were de , almost denying that we'd have to do this sort of thing! +What? +Do you, a few weeks ago? +Yeah, actually at the end of, end of +I can't remember saying saying you +last term yeah. +Oh! +When Don first actually broached this whole thing. +No,a no +With all due respect is tha is that re is that relevant? +No, hang on here misrepresenting what I'm saying there. +No, all I'm saying is that I'd like to support Don and what Don's just said there and I think that er, we a that is what we are gonna have to do. +It might not be, be down as black and white +But, no wait a minute cos they're two issues! +at the moment. +I , no, those are two i issues. +Mm. +First of all you're misrepresenting what I'm saying about those figures +Mm. +right? +And, whether you believe that or not that is not effecting what I'm saying today and whether it's accurate or not! +That's right! +I I agree with you that those are concerns but I would not like things like grammar to be isolated out from other language skills +No, not grammar but but basically, maths and English are the tools that the other subjects +Oh yes, I agree with you. +are are are working +Could +with. +Could we work under a more general, how would you feel about if we put something down like, I dunno, written work would, is is that +I've got written work. +Does that not writing and neatness. +Writing and neatness , no spelling is a , to my mind, spelling is important. +Of course it is, I'm not denying that! +Are +I I to +you repeating yourself? +No. +If we put, what about orally and literacy? +And that includes all. +We are obliged, I'll say it again +No, we're not +we +obliged! +We are obliged now to write +G C S E? +to to to re to report on, er in all course work to take five percent of our +Yeah. +er +That's right. +course work and base ma ma ma er do do something along the lines of spelling. +Sorry, I'm not putting it very well. +Yes, but that's assessed in English underneath the attainment target of writing. +No, it's a separate ! +But we're obliged every subject! +That but anyway that doesn't ha hang on that that doesn't approve what you're saying, what I'm saying as far as English is concerned that's assessed underneath the attainment target writing +Mhm. +what I'm concerned about is put things down like that, er like that it encourages erm an appreciation of language skills that are bitty, partial, they can be pulled apart and it's not the model of language teaching that I would like to promote. +Right. +I'm not saying that spelling +Mm. +isn't important, obviously as an English +Mm. +teacher I'm not going to argue that but what I'm saying is that in this report I don't think that's necessarily the appropriate format. +Well how am I going to report to parents our spelling ? +Well reporting them un underneath the writ li literacy that is, that it's a literacy skill! +But I think it's a bit more specific than that isn't it? +Right. +If they don't, if they can't spell they're not literate! +And if they can't write in sentences they're not literate! +So you would just put in something for literacy? +So +Well what I'm sugge , but as an alternative I'm suggesting that as far as that's concerned you put down +Well we +No, I don't think most of parents would have a clue what you're talking about! +I'm sorry! +Don't you? +No. +But we've +Don't apologise! +But but you haven't argued with that mathematical innumeracy and I think it's a comparable situation! +Is it not? +Yes, well I I would object to +I'm not su +somebody talking about mathematical skills. +I think we're saying the same thing. +Mhm. +I'm trying to take an overview +Yeah, yeah. +I think Angela's saying exactly the same +I'm trying to take an over-view. +that Alan's saying and I think we'll have to respect that with all du +Mhm. +with all due respect. +Ah, but at the same time we don't have to comment on mathematical skills at G C S E. +No. +No, but the ar , the previous argument was whether there would be an un sa understanding of it, we won't understand literacy. +I think we have to recognise Angela's concern if er a subject area that she's trying to present, present and she is not precluding you from doing what you've got +Oh no ! +to do, she's just offering a different way of doing it. +If you like, a different heading under which to do it. +Well +So she would put wha in you would put in what, sorry? +Just literacy. +I would put literacy. +Because it involves more things. +No no I disagree with that. +Yeah, I disagree, I think I would still like to put +Yep. +spelling grammar punctuation +Yeah but +whatever. +but these +Is that not all part of literacy? +Yeah. +If, you see if you put down literacy the the whole show's in there, I mean if you're going to put i , put isolated spelling it i it encourages a very limited view of what English is about and success in using language. +It's nothing to do +Angela? +with English! +At that Oh! +Andrew, comment +That's +on that? +course it is, it's language is a +I mean,a you sit outside it I +medium of learning! +any axe to grind? +, it's not English subject area I'm talking about. +Erm yeah, the the the axe to to to grind is is yes, I pick up the the the political stick here er, that was you know, that that, you know from the other the other end to you and yeah, yes I also think we're being beaten with a with a with a stick here for three R's er, if we're forced into the corner of having to use an ignorant white hall idiots er +Inadequately educated. +inadequately educated persons er, view of what it is to be well educated i.e. we've got to comment on the spelling as if it were important +But I think it is. +I think it is, yeah! +ah, in the way that they +I agree with what they're saying! +in the way that they're saying it +I agree with it, I +in the way that they're saying it +Mm. +then no. +But if as educationalists taking full account the subject specialism and our own knowledge of it, we would care to make some comment then that is a different thing altogether. +Mhm. +So that if we deal with it er er in a way that we can find a professionally acceptable +Mm. +then I think that we ought to comment on it but if we are doing media response +Mm. +then I don't think that we ought to go along with, for instance , just using a term like, spelling to +Mm. +summarise +It's +something which +it's more complex. +is more complex than that. +Yeah. +that's my I'm not saying it isn't important +Professionally, if we did that we'd be cheapening ourselves. +I I I think +Absolutely! +with all due respect here we have to respect the wishe , Angela's wishes, er, I mean, on the one hand we're respecting Alan's er er and I I +No , I I'm gi it's not my, I I would just look at mathematical skills and saying that you're not really yo you don't really mean mathematical skills. +I mean, for most of you +Aha. +yo you know, I mean i i i if Andrew were saying he's he's he's pretty limited at maths you wouldn't really be meaning limited in maths, you'd be meaning lim , limited in +Certain skills. +numeracy because Andrew wouldn't have been testing algebra or things like that, you'd have just +been looking at the numbers. +Oh! +See +Oh!. +and that's what I'm saying. +Mhm. +So you're wanting a general +Yes that doesn't exclude but includes all of that, but at the same time although everybody that's going to read it may not understand the intricacies of it all as professionals we're giving more than a passing nod, so that was something else, er er and something more involved than English teacher than making them jump through loops +Mm. +and cross t's and dot i's! +But that,a a that's what I said +If it's just a +to you! +No, if I may aye, I er, something's just occurred to me and we are looking +we are looking, the other heading here of general skills and abilities.,. +and se spelling +Spelling is very specific. +is specific. +Mm. +And on that basis I would +But +go along with literacy. +Li literacy and +And I think I'm I'm always inclined to do a Colin and say, you know +Right. +I've made my mind up and that's the way it's gonna be! +I hate +But +doing things like that but I I I I believe quite strongly what Angela's saying er, if you came to me and presented something ba ba, a total er, conviction that it might be in a sense damaging er the er the the the concept people have of your subject, or might have I would listen very carefully to that, and I also ta , I remember Gordon saying some time ago and whilst Gordon drove me crackers he talked about the government saying you've gotta do this, you've go and he said there are things that we must believe in as educationalists ourselves, and professionalists +I agree. +ourselves despite what the governors +Mhm. +er, the government say to us. +And I believe personally in this context it would be foolish, at the moment, to go down a narrow road until such time as we are ca + +Ah well, he'll tell you about that later. +Erm obviously all the information here in the get up of this session is copyright . +Now, the defences that we're involved in er are taking conveyance. +Your client is alleged to have taken a conveyance . +Erm, there's a possibility of dangerous driving as well. +Let's look at document two. +, is that your group? +What would you say about document two? +Document two . +Right. +Section four . +Section four what? +Twenty four. +Sorry, twenty four, my mistake. +Okay? +What does section twenty four require? +There's an additional +That's not relevant here, is it? +Yeah, I think there's some confusion here. +Erm, in a civil case the rules of hearsay are basically of little importance because they can almost always be got round. +For example, a person compiles a statement under a , that statement can be introduced under cross-section? +Four +Four. +right? +There is an equivalent section that relates to criminal evidence which allows a, a statement to be introduced but only where the needs, where the, I hate that word, the, where justice requires it to be introduced. +And the purpose of that section is to prevent trials becoming paper trials where the prosecution do not call evidence. +Now, they call evidence under a section nine, you, you can agree a section nine statement, prosecution statement, but you don't have to, right? +And in this case you would not agree to statement being written, say being read out, you wouldn't require him to be present, and it could not be introduced under section twenty four because the court would find that it was in the interests of ju justice that it doesn't . +Why is it in the interests of justice that ? +Why shouldn't the case be conducted just on cross-examination, because of cross-examination? +I mean criminal trials are oral trials where the evidence is given orally so that the witnesses can be cross- examined under a and be judged by the tribunal of fact. +Okay?assume that a prosecution statements will be admissible in themselves and always assume that witnesses will give more evidence. +Okay ? +So will give evidence. +If he doesn't want to give evidence that y , alright? +So, assuming that he gives evidence any a evidential points ? +You can't see whether you, you're acting for , what's your attitude to this statement? +Anything in it you're not happy with? +Right, what's the problem about that? +So, sorry, what are you saying exactly? +Where are we exactly? +Are we at the in the statement? +Pardon? +Whereabouts are we in the statement? +On the second page. +Right, page eight. +It was who took both cars, okay? +Yeah +Alright. +You see what's happened there. +That the police have got the witness to erm sign, initial, every line. +That's not uncommon . +Okey-dokey. +What is the state of those statements? +It was , he took both cars. +Self-serving statements. +It is indeed a self-serving statement statement, so, so what does that give us? +If you were to characterize this, this interview, what would you call it? +It's a text. +By who? +Part of the confession is a self-serving part, it's a er, possibly mixed statement. +Er, in which he blames somebody else, okay? +What is the effect of that? +Against who? +Against your client ? +Yes? +Do you agree with that? +No. +Why not? +Right, the confession is only admissible against the maker. +The statement implicating is not admissible against . +Now, when the police officer when the police officer comes to court and goes through this statement, and it's a confession, what would you normally call what he's reading out? +I heard say suppose I +It's hearsay. +But why does it have to be that? +It's an exception to the hearsay rule. +The confession is an exception to the hearsay rule. +Okay? +But it's an exception to the hearsay rule that only applies against the maker. +Because it is something made against your own interest. +Erm, the rule of evidence is that it is inherently unlikely that anybody would make a statement against their own interest unless it was true. +Right? +You might very well say that you were the greatest law lecturer in the world, because people tend to say these things about themselves. +It would be unlikely that you would say that you were the worst law lecturer in the world unless you were. +Okay?it's a statement against your own interest. +This is a separate argument from whether you actually made the statement or not, or whether it was bullied out of you like in the case. +But if you did genuinely make that statement it's more likely to be true if it's against your interest, rather than for your interest. +Okay? +If a double-glazing salesman tells you that his product is crap, believe him. +Alright? +Get worried if he tells you it's very good. +Okay? +Right. +Because of that reason the confession is admissible against yourself as an admission, as an exception, to the hearsay rule. +It is not admissible against the . +Does that mean that the parts that are inadmissible are stuck out and you can give evidence only to the parts that are not self-serving? +What do you think? +What would be the point of the evidence if it's not implicating in trial? +There's no point. +The whole thing . +Now, if the police think that this aspect of the case is important to them, how would they get the evidence in? +Oral testimony of? +, call . +Okay? +Can give evidence about trial? +What other circumstances? +Good. +Yes. +Relevant point. +Here is, he's pleading guilty. +What he's pleading guilty, he is competent to give evidence against . +His evidence is then direct evidence. +I saw do this. +Okay? +It is no longer hearsay. +You no longer have to bring it within an exception. +Yes? +Not easy, this stuff. +Not easy. +Alright, now. +I now want to go to back to the beginning of the statement. +When you are dealing with statements, you must start off and go through it step by step and not leap ahead. +Now, is there anything in the first paragraph that anybody thinks raises an evidential point? +I think so. +I can tell a race when I see one. +Erm, I go to Silverstone to see races for two reasons. +One, because they are advertised as that race and two, I see them dashing around the track. +I think that's irrelevant. +Okay? +Anything else? +First paragraph? +Erm, yes. +I can probably say I asked the driver for his . +Yes +I think cross-examine him. +Are we happy about cross-examining, do you think? +Yes? +Great, yeah, that's cross- examining. +. Yes? +No problems about cross-examining him? +We, if you comes and gives evidence against us, then we can either show that he's incorrect in a substantive way, or we can attack his credibility. +How might we attack his credibility? +He's got previous convictions, right. +We know about that. +No problem about bringing up his previous convictions? +Right, we lose our shield. +We have a shield under the which prevents the prosecution in a normal case from bringing to the attention of the court the fact that we have previous convictions. +We are a, an innocent man until we are shown to be guilty. +However, if we don't and we say we're lily white but the prosecution solicitor, prosecution witnesses, are all bent, then we lose that shield and they can say, hey you're not lily white, you're bent as well. +Right. +So, if gives evidence, having become competent because he has pleaded guilty, erm, then we can cross-examine him, but we are in difficulties if we then bring up his previous convictions attack his credibility. +In the same way as you lose your shield whenever you attack a prosecution witness. +So, for instance, if you have an argument with the police er on a matter, you might very well have to say to the police, I think officer you were take that and say you're a lying bastard . +If you take the latter point of view but you will also put your client's character . +Okay? +If your client has good character, fine, if he's got bad character . +What is the best tactical way of dealing with your client's bad character? +Now second paragraph? +Maybe. +You don't really know how he had this information. +It appears to be hearsay of some sort and therefore is erm inadmissible. +What would you do about that if you were at court acting for your client?that paragraph from the earlier comments. +Er, what would you do? +You could have a trial. +I would suggest that that is not very helpful. +If you have a trial within a trial in the crown court, what happens? +If you have a trial within a trial at the magistrates court, what happens? +Yeah. +and deal with your objection and then puts it out of their mind if they find that the evidence is inadmissible, doesn't work. +Right. +So it's very important that you avoid magistrates court. +Why can't you avoid the magistrates court in this case? +Erm, he did have the right to that trial for erm what the previous offence before taking conveyance which was a clock taken without the owner's consent and previous offence before that taking but in order to reduce costs right mainly because they also want at the same time to remove the right for theft ah and they failed. +That is, of course , because people who steal biscuits from are usually are usually middle class etcetera etcetera but people who steal cars generally tend to be toerags, I think the expression is, erm and therefore nobody much cares. +Right. +So they lost their rights in that trial very bad idea. +So how would you get round that? +Good. +pointing out the evidence that you think is inadmissible and any reasonable will the police officer doesn't refer to it. +Okay? +I'm still interested in paragraph one. +You, you looked at this over the weekend and thought there's not much in this, is there? +Hopefully you'll think again he's stating, I'm for it now. +Distress it could be I suppose. +It is intimately connected with the offence. +Does anybody understand exception to the hearsay rule? +He could be, but what is it really? +Does anybody know? +It's not really hearsay. +No, because he's not actually admitting anything. +I mean,if the police stop you on the motorway, you know you're for it, whether you've done anything or not. +You'll certainly have an unpleasant few minutes +True. +It's admissible only reaction. +The same as when you're charged you're asked if you have anything to say reaction only and not hearsay. +Remember that hearsay is a statement, oral or written, made outside of court, introduced into court for the, in order to show that it's true, okay?you look completely gobsmacked. +I am. +Why would it be hearsay anyway? +Because it's certainly a statement made out of court because or he's making it with reference to something else. +Ah. +If it's oral yes. +That would be hearsay. +It would not be simply direct evidence, yes. +Alright makes his confession, let's assume at the moment that it is admissible and gives evidence . +Anything about the statement itself, or, or the interview itself, that you would object to on behalf of? +Why do you object to that? +It's . +It's completely inadmissible. +Okay? +Unless what? +Sure, this is where I, this is where erm I must say that I never quite understood this, but if the prosecution witnesses, in their statements or in their oral evidence, refer to your client's bad character, then that is inadmissible, completely inadmissible. +Right. +If you then cross-examine them and attack their credibility your shield goes in and then after that your previous good character, but only in the context of you being cross-examined by the prosecution. +Right. +So at no stage would this ever go in. +At no stage would this reference ever be admissible because it's not going to be relevant after your shield's gone in because your shield going in relates to the questions understanding be agree or correct me but this is how I understand the situation. +So references to bad character are never admissible. +There are other references to bad character here. +showed me how to do it. +It was 's fault, he made me do it. +Okay? +Var various other pathetic . +What about ? +Are you happy with his treatment at, at the police station? +Why not? +No record of the tape at all. +Erm, or what else, crucially?? +, more further crucial problem? +Were you arrested and taken to the police station and cautioned? +Erm +What's the fir who's the first manifest you see? +It's the custody sergeant, okay, the custody officer,the custody officer. +So in so far as that affects the confession it may mean that it could be removed but that's really completely irrelevant to you because erm that's his confession, not evidence against him. +If he comes to court, what happened at the police station doesn't matter because he'll then give direct evidence, not what he said in the police station but what actually happened on that night in the, in the estate. +Does everybody follow that? +Is anybody confused? +Do you want me to go through that again? +So the fact that there was no solicitor relevant in this case because the whole confession isn't relevant to +It may be very very relevant to what happens to but with regard to your client , this statement is not evidence against him because his confession is admissible only against the maker. +If he turns up for court and he says, yes I had a terrible time at the police station and there were all sorts of breaches of but I am now here on a, I'm gonna tell the truth, that's no problem. +It's the evidence he gives on oath what matters. +What happened before is irrelevant. +Yes? +Okay. +Right . +Let's go on to document three. +We want to go through that line by line so +Erm, what were the words you'd complain about? +Erm, not necessarily complain but interview police officer about when he was told that upsets my mother +Sorry, am I, oh yes, yes you're absolutely right. +Is that it?object to, it's just a point which we thought about raising later on. +We might be able to just +So the rest of the paragraph you're obviously happy with? +Anybody else? +Anybody? +Any comments? +A woman came to the door who I, whom I recognized as , 's mother. +She said, oh my God, they've come for . +Hearsay exception relates to the state of mind of the defendant. +What the relevance of +what? +Well, what can you primarily infer from the words ? +Guilt, or? +Conviction surely, known to the police? +He recognizes her but how, how many er, let me put it this way, if the police came to your house to talk to your mother, would you expect them to recognize her, or would you expect him to say, oh my God they've come ? +You may or may not . +It would seem to show that er is known to the police. +Okay? +On the face of it, the argument I think is this, the words, oh my God he's come for are hearsay, sorry, are not hearsay, because although they're an out of court statement they're not introduced as the truth. +They're just reported speech. +Okay? +But they are almost certainly excluded by common law. +Does anybody know the common law principle? +This may well be for those of you who did in fact agree. +I don't think that the erm go into this properly and I don't, I think will have dealt with it in lectures, but essentially there's a common law principle that says if a matter is more prejudicial than evidential it should not be read. +Here it may be that er it's important to say er what she said value or what relevance it has to the trial of the son anyway. +But let's say he did. +It clearly is highly prejudicial and therefore whatever spurious relevance it may have should be waived against prejudicial, in fact should be excluded. +Okay? +Right. +, your client is interviewed, document four, are you happy with the contents ? +Any other reasons for not being happy? +Anybody else? +Any other? +erm, possibly drunk or possibly . +Okay,problems,problems here. +So what? +Is that what you're worried about? +Is that what you wanna do here? +Do you want to it? +Why do you want to it? +It's not . +It's not a paid profession and therefore the exclusion of this statement under section six two is irrelevant. +This is not a confession. +Is there anything here that constitutes anything approaching a confession? +this, this is about being in lines. +If you had it numbered, you could refer to a number. +What page are we on? +Er, page eleven +It's twenty eight and sixty eight. +. +What, the man said, I'll get you for this? +Right. +Is that a confession? +was convicted on the murder of after the judge ruled that a statement to the police was admissible. +The statement he made was, you say you've got witnesses but none of them will give evidence against me. +Okay? +That was held to be a confession. +Now. +Okay, fair enough, it was turned over on appeal eventually erm but erm it was a bit of a miscarriage of justice being kept in prison for that period of time until it was overturned pleaded guilty to another murder but that's by the by. +Potentially, the bastard I'll get him for this, could be a confession. +It's pretty iffy but it is fairly ambiguous, isn't it? +But the problem is if this is taken out of context with the rest of the statement, the judge might leave it to the jury. +I don't think it would be right to do so. +The judge should exclude it. +So, what you have to argue is that that is not a confession. +If it is not a confession the whole statement isn't a confession. +it is, other than that. +Is the statement admissible? +Can detective constable come to court, show the jury, hand out to the jury the statement which would stand up in court? +No. +Why not? +And? +Good. +It is not an exception to the rule gives details of alibi witnesses. +What should the police do about those alibi witnesses? +Find them. +Find them, check 'em out. +Let's look at er document five. +Okay?, do you want to deal with that? +Comments in that should tell you that is retired. +He's unemployed and retired, in his sixties. +I do understand the expression, to know by sight. +The Oxford University Library should be worried , but I said what about his sight? +I should, I should warn you that it's best to say that only witnesses perhaps have problems with their sight, not that they are senile. +Because . +Alright? +So, there are problems about the identification. +No. +No she doesn't. +Can you cut it up really small? +Yes. +Hey! +I'm afraid there most of it's bust. +Will Matt like this piece? +Go on take that away Matt. +You haven't. +Go in there. +I'm hungry as well. +Well, well Matt +What happens now? +Just eat. +Save that fucking cabbage! +He eats this. +He eats this. +He eats baby food! +Yep! +Baby Carly's food. +That's right. +No baby +Baby +food! +Messed up cabbage and and +No baby +food. +Right, if any of the supermarkets have a baby counter anywhere here? +For baby food? +Yeah, you have baby food! +This is cabbage and carrot. +Mhm. +Eats baby food. +Yeah, cabbage and carrot! +Look. +I can give you a leg son. +Ha ha ha! +You +You got +You got him a leg? +No. +I won't eat all that! +No way! +I'm just and then you can +Leave what you don't want. +leave what you don't want. +Alright, nay problem! +I won't eat a leg as well. +Right, come here then. +Yeah! +interest, we're now +There's ? +Is that, is that Matt's or yours? +Where? +Over there. +Whose is this? +I don't +want one. +We haven't got any cheesecake. +Have I seen that one? +One I am +Hello! +when I am ne +Do you want a bit of chicken Laura? +This is my +Is that alright? +I don't need my +I have brown +chairs. +He actually said +Mine. +if you wanna ask Laura if she'd what did Sheila say to you? +Well I +Are you hungry? +Yeah, and what did you say? +who are +No. +Yes, you are hungry. +Are you hungry? +my +No! +You got a sore tummy? +Have you got a sore tummy? +Yeah? +He don't eat a lot. +You're full of crap Laura to be quite honest with you! +You're just +Yep! +aren't you? +Erm have you +We're just waiting for +it's +Lesley and we'll have some photos +er +This chicken's hot . +She's got a sore tummy. +I'm reading a book. +She's got a sore tummy cos she's not eating enough! +Give her that. +Give her some. +Just a wee drop of chicken Laura? +No. +Some spuds and some peas and +and carrots. +Where's my plate? +You've not had enough. +How many shall I set the table for? +You kids can sit there and we'll sit at the table. +What? +There look! +Big spoon! +Laura have a look at the chicken there, is that enough for you? +Mm. +Are you sure? +Fine! +What about some er spuds? +Gravy! +Mm! +Want spuds? +Yes please. +Well I've got some of Matt's. +Doesn't matter if you leave it, no. +Do you want some more? +Do you want some? +Take half of this. +Oh, can we take the skin off,. +Take the bone off right? +Pardon? +Do you want the skin off? +Yes please dad. +I'll have some mashed potato. +You'll have some mashed potato in a minute Laura. +What? +You can get that off. +Mm. +I'll see if that swede +I want +Swede? +Yes,. +Well it's whatever he wants. +Go and sit down just now Laura. +I'll do the dishwasher, if you want. +You never mind the dishwasher! +I know! +I'm packing it . +You hear what mummy said! +Leave it just now son. +I'll pack it all this afternoon if you like. +That is on rinse, it'll cool down. +That enough chicken for you Matt? +Yeah, that's plenty. +Will that cool down a bit? +Yeah, when it's off. +What are you having? +Just that, I'll come back for it. +I'm more than happy. +a bit. +. +Matt, do you want a gravy? +Please? +Matt? +Yes please? +You didn't ask us whether we want +Here Laura, eat that. +Chris, do you want gravy? +Yep! +Yes, Chris wants gravy. +Leave that. +We're gonna get a knife and fork now . +You sit down there son. +When? +Take the salt and pepper in. +And that is nice bits of skin on there for you son. +Right, thanks. +She told me she wasn't having any. +She's not ge , okay something to eat and still . +Because her stomach, it's alright if she's not been sick. +.Don't mind at all. +She's alright now +inside. +Your dumb comments will not be required! +Alright. +Okay? +Okay. +Yeah. +Sit up! +If I get one more one argument one +What am I arguing about? +I'm just telling you! +Laura ! +Coming! +Is this mine? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah? +Sit at the table. +for dinner. +Don't want any dinner. +I +Can I start eating? +Yes. +What do you have to do? +Eating. +I bet she doesn't eat everything. +Yeah. +This +Is there +Cos I +is there enough for two? +, enough for two there. +Well er, mine's . +Well there's not enough for two to go round so I was . +Sit up and stop bloody that! +Sit up there! +Ah! +Pull the chair out! +Can I have some beans now? +Yes, it's being done just now. +Salt there? +Yeah. +Keep meaning to she doesn't He's oh oh ! +? +Yep. +Oh don't +Don't pick! +Co , because +because dad's here! +Oh oh yeah! +Shut up! +You're getting malnutrition Laura! +It means your body ain't got what it needs to +Mine has! +Cos you're eating properly, Laura's not! +Get stuck into it! +Enjoy it! +You'll feel better for it. +I am enjoying it. +Enjoy it. +You might likely be in bed if you don't eat that! +Don't force me! +What? +I really don't want that . +Well if you , you'll never eat it. +So you won't be able to take it yourself. +I am eating it really. +I know you are. +I'm not! +You are! +She will. +She will! +I get it's just the stomach ache . +You've got stomach ache cos you're not eating! +Mm! +Is that ? +Oh well I won't eat anything at all. +Got stomach ache. +You've got stomach ache cos you're not eating! +Yeah! +Leave me alone! +I'm not sympathetic. +When a new car comes well cos me and Chris will will have a drive of it. +Cos you go of it on my own. +Yeah. +Don't wanna drive it! +Then you'll miss out. +You'll miss out all the good things! +Cos you'll be in bed . +Yeah. +You're going to try +You'll again Laura. +But who says this? +What am I doing without ? +Not eating everything!? +Mhm. +Too much meat! +Too much meat! +You're starving dude! +You you're greedy! +Lovely! +What about you then! +Yeah! +Yeah! +Well! +Is that potatoes. +It isn't! +And some more gravy. +Mm! +Mm! +There's some +Don't be gross! +I'm not! +It won't fit in. +Mm! +Mm mm! +Gonna wear the . +We'll eat everything . +. Bit . +Get out of it! +Get out! +Ah, I love it! +I love it! +been to see it as well. +Where? +You don't fill it in do you? +Oh yeah, that was lovely! +We had chicken tikka +Mm. +We had rice. +We had some of that crisp stuff. +It was good, it was lovely though. +Poppadoms. +Yes. +Everything!there's nothing there. +You won't be able to get up. +Won't eat no vegetable at all. +No! +Well I do . +Mum! +I can't eat all that. +What's up with you? +What's up? +Eat what you can ! +You said I had to eat it all! +That's right. +Mum, I can't eat this bit this bit up there. +You said I had to eat it in! +Well you did. +Mum? +I can't finish that . +Ah? +I can't finish that much. +Where? +Go over to here. +It's what? +Mm!! +You had enough to eat ? +You sure? +Mum? +Mum? +What? +Are they them crispy things? +What crispy things? +Any more? +Ah? +Poppadoms we had last night. +No. +Them round things. +No we haven't got any more. +No, we've eaten them all. +The things +Where? +No it's there. +What the po are they thin and crispy stuff we er the round stuff in the sideboard +Well +yeah, and I had one of them. +Oh you mean yesterday? +Yeah. +Well that +Any Yorkshire puddings mum? +No. +Ah! +These crisp thing right? +Never had a Yorkshire pudding like this before! +There wasn't any! +Right, now hold on. +Mum? +I don't want this piece of chicken. +Put it in the food table, he'll have it. +Mum? +What? +Don't want +this piece of chicken. +Can't eat it. +Okay. +Chicken, chicken, chicken! +I'll eat the rest. +Poppadom! +Poppadom! +You don't +look at me like that! +Please say could you? +What was that large thing I had last night mum? +Ha? +Do you want some Chris? +Yeah. +No, don't wanna get +Mum, +She's really done well. +Sit back at the table properly! +Eat +everything! +That's not enough. +But +can't can't eat any more. +No, just you know leave it, some leftovers there. +Mum? +What? +I wasn't gonna eat mine. +Only there . +I'm a real big dude! +I'm a real +Eh? +! +Shut up! +Yes ! +It's, it's +Ah! +Doesn't mean you have to take the mick! +I'm not taking the mick, I'm just saying +You're taking the mick! +You say I'd rather have +Chris +Why? +Christopher isn't sleeping with us. +Erm +Just say when. +When. +Quite a lot there . +Oh! +Erm . +Shall I tell you afterwards? +Not quite sure. +Not quite sure of anything! +Tell you about that one. +Ashley? +Straight up! +Look! +Yeah. +All the cassettes they gave us. +Christ! +All the +thingummies and what have you. +Got a log book and +And how long have you gotta have it for then? +A week. +Yeah. +And we'll get them +Okay, where do you get the card? +Mum? +Mum, might get one +Mum? +of those cars today dad! +I've gotta try and find that. +She might do aye! +Ashley! +Don't! +Baby Rebecca. +Ben. +What? +My mum might get me one of those . +If we can get it. +Oh yeah! +Might get one of them big ones! +Oh! +Why? +Cos I'm collecting them. +Are you? +Yeah. +I'm collecting ordinary one! +Okay a mini one! +Oh +Mum, I bet you get more +stickers in here +Yes. +than I should +Helen got some trolls from somewhere. +. I dunno where she got them from. +Val gets them +Mm! +you can get some from +And er +and some from Woolworth cards. +Woolworths. +I I don't know if they do them in Woolworths. +Yes they do! +Oh! +I already bought in Woolworths once! +Woolworths, they have them an they have +They got them in Woolworths. +the best +Mm. +they are the most best people that +They're good! +Yeah. +And,. +You know what they do? +They sell out you won't believe this they sell you won't believe this, they sell +Come in! +they sell them +Come in! +they sell them +That +Oh no!! +Ha! +You're a lovely +Hey, don't you get all dirty! +Dad that recorder thing's running. +Yeah I know it is. +I didn't! +Ha. +Ha. +Ha. +Look at the +Come on! +Oh! +. Well! +Oh! +Oy! oy!! +Ooh! +Ooh! +Cor! +He's never even done +Ooh! +as bad as that! +Pardon? +That's unbelievable! +He's tricking you! +Look I put my finger in your mouth erm if I ever get stuck. +Right, he crawls out without a fishing rod. +Does he? +Ooh! +Quick ! +my claws. +Ah! +Oh ya! +Oh! +It's mine! +That's mine! +No baby wet ! +We got a excuse for me, right? +Yeah. +the dog. +Didn't he? +Don't think a bunny rabbit +She's got a bit in her mouth. +Yeah, but don't go +Mum I got +You're making excuses aren't you? +Don't do that! +What? +Stupid idiot! +Don't you +Don't you call me stupid idiot! +Pick it up! +No! +Well don't, you're gonna ! +Get up! +Put it here! +Don't ! +Well that is on your mat. +Mm. +Change! +That's it! +Yeah! +How you feeling? +What? +That's that. +No. +Well I know but thing you've got to break this there. +Yeah. +Oh! +Ooh! +Hayley's +Mm! +Mm mm mm! +doing the ? +Yeah. +Hayley's got the +Oh! +It's kind of like +I've got both of them! +What? +That's good isn't it? +I've got +Pour some hot water on and put it in the microwave. +Ah! +Ah okay +If it could work or in hot water. +It's lovely and warm for hours! +There was a medical programme +Did it still stay warm? +Mm! +Can I make a little? +Mhm. +Like daddy's. +Mhm. +erm +I've seen this stuff advertised there. +In that programme that +Well and I +Give me one! +seen that one, and it's really good! +Quite hot. +Even +Uses snow and er +Er +nine thousand! +Oh I don't even know if that's it. +He nine thousand. +Mm! +That erm that erm oh it's gone away. +This door is staying up. +It's somewhere. +No it does not! +Well it does! +No it doesn't! +Cos we used to have it and we were ! +When you did that, when th you took it off it was just black. +. +Well yeah! +My jacket. +Dad! +Dad! +Dad? +Where you going? +When when are my mum and dad sto when my mum comes back my dad said will you take us home? +We can +Yeah, but then we're not. +I will +Are you all going out? +Are you all going out? +Eddie! +Come in here please? +He went ooh! +Ooh! +Who's that? +Ooh! +That's ! +Or go +Ah! +Can you do that? +Yeah. +You alright? +Ah. +You missed that. +Yeah. +Mm. +computer. +We got that. +Eddie! +I think something's upstairs. +What? +Yeah. +Yeah, you mustn't anyway. +I can go next. +My mum is erm +Can you lift him up? +in erm . +I didn't know about +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Two, three, four. +One for you. +And getting four. +Oh! +Oh oh! +.Eight. +I gotta take the top of my door off. +Yeah. +I'm gonna try and get +I just need, it's this bit of the door I need to take off. +. So why have I put the door on the outside? +Some more haven't . +Mum, you're gonna get about ten of them . +Hey! +Ready madam? +Mm. +Yeah. +Right! +Come on, get your coat on they'll be here in a minute! +Me? +Yep! +Where we going? +You'll see. +Soon after three. +Will I have to break in again? +No, you're gonna ! +Right. +What we going on a for? +Come on! +Alright! +Alright! +I'm ! +Do I have to explain every single thing to you! +Just do what you're told and shut it!your ear bashing! +Come on! +Hayley! +Come on! +Quick! +Ah! +Ah! +Ah! +Ah! +No! +If you don't be quick. +Hayley! +Ashley, come on then! +Hayley! +Give Laura a kiss. +I don't want to do it! +Ooh! +Coming? +Where we going? +Hayley? +Coming? +Ashley, come on! +Where we going? +I thought he was doing that again. +Dad, where are we going? +Come again. +Perhaps dad will bring us round work next time alright? +Yeah. +What's that for? +Ah! +What's that? +Ready? +No we're going! +Ready? +We're going! +Bye bye! +We're going! +Where? +I was just +We're going! +No I'm not! +Yes we are, now get your coat on! +Alright. +No. +I'll see you tomorrow. +Alright mate. +Hello Matt. +See you! +Yeah, I'll see you there then. +Bye! +Bye! +See you later kids! +Bye! +Bye! +Yeah! +Bye! +Come on Laura, get your coat on we're going away in about ten minutes as well. +Where we going? +Right I'll see you later love! +Alright? +Where we going? +I'm gonna fucking smack you all round this house very shortly! +Get in there! +Fucking in there! +Do I have to ? +You ever fucking saying right I'll give you a, want a smack? +Fucking stupid little don't think you can bloody fucking mad! +Get upstairs! +You get upstairs as well! +Are we allowed to have the video on? +Fucking, fucking this morning! +Before we even go any further! +You were fucking lying there wrestling with your brother! +I stood at that window and watched you for at least two minutes! +Ben. +You said no I wasn't! +I wasn't wrestling! +What were you doing? +You give me a good explanation of what you were doing? +I was listening to music and he . +Ah! +Right! +So you were just lying listening to music in between the chair and the couch? +No Chris , Christopher was. +Were you wrestling with Matt? +No, this is what happened. +No. +? +Matt was lying on the couch and then went and then I went over and sat on the couch and then Matt tried sa Matt erm pretended he was up to him and started +I was already there! +Shut it! +Come in here! +Who broke that? +Well Matt blamed me +You were ? +No. +So you broke that off with your head? +No, +I +It was fucking ! +No,! +It's a funny +, no! +Well I don't, you don't see how he could do it? +I don't see how you can fucking tell me barefaced lies like that! +You were fucking doing it , now get up! +Never seen anything so fucking ! +And I say something so idiotic and stupid like that again I'll fucking all round this house!! +Do you understand? +If I tell you to do something you don't say, why! +Where are we going? +What are we doing? +Do I have to be there again? +Right. +Go upstairs. +Fucking! +You get worse! +With the . +Get the computer off! +It is off. +Just about had enough of this shite! +Fucking lying wrestling and then telling me, no, I'm not wrestling! +What do you think I am a some kind of idiot! +Ah? +You take me for some kind of arsehole! +No. +Well you better not! +Go in and get your face wiped! +Dad? +Yeah? +The top of the tape by that Walkman's erm on top of those two china plates. +Is it? + +So that ewes er, are, are, er, erm, protected by him, erm in Leicestershire he says it's open countryside and he says I don't lose that many by foxes, he says I'm more, er er at unease with other things. +Getting to the tenant situation I have never dictated to tenants. +In actual fact I have bent over backwards, I was the only councillor that went and welcomed one of our new ke tenant farmers quite recently, having been on the agricultural environment protection committee and been on a board of er interview panel. +I actually asked prospective farmers what they thought about certain issues, because I think the Leicestershire county council er and our department are probably some of the best farmers landlords there are in the country and I think our tenant farmers know that in actual fact I asked the question to several of the members er er the potential er clients erm, what do you think about foxes. +At no time did I ever have one of them ever say to me that they were erm against foxes, but all of a sudden we find ourselves being issued with a er petition from tenant farmers which says that they are against er people like me that er er pro banning, it's very like er Mr , we can't attack Mr cos he's no longer here but on the, on the issue of er , I C I brought ou . +I said to the farmers we s you should cut grass and you get nitrates into the water and I said to the farmers er er about their slurry throwing erm a muck across the land, we know the problems that causes, I said if we came out with fertilisers which were would you buy them if it costed a bit more. +Ninety percent of them said yes, that it depends on how you present the figures, so in actual fact I wonder how our tenant farmers all of a sudden find themselves in a position that they perhaps would rather sign a petition and not put their heads above the parapet bearing in mind you are in a community, bear in mind you are connected, bear in mind that your livelihood is with those others and I have to say it is true that a certain business in my area connected with farming has been threatened. +That the hunting fraternity have passed the word round that it to remove your business because it's rumoured that that person is involved with er er people like me. +I think that's that absolutely horrific and that has come from one of the practice partners and not the actual himself. +I think that's terrible. +To put that type of pressure on individuals I think is absolutely awful. +Going on again on the tenant farmers, I actually think that er we are very good landlords and I think our our our tenants would rather us keep us as landlords than the private sector, in actual fact we will have no doubt a debate quite soon on that issue when the government makes us sell off all areas of of er th our interests and that one, I will tell you this, I think that some of the members all sides of the fence every side of the fence, have been passionately behind the tenants, if if they're gonna be sold off by now they'd have been sold off, but I think it won't be far long before we have to take education first, social services first, the elderly before er your side with your government to come forward and say to us we don't want you interfering with anything like that and being bold business, get rid of, but that's another debate that will come up later on. +Monitoring. +I trust our tenants at the end of the day if it is illegal I'm sure that our tenants will not do it. +When it becomes illegal which will I'm sure all people will abide by the law. +I'm sorry about the turning a blind eye I er I er Mr I really do feel that if you are passionate about it the one way to get rid of this debate is to vote for my motion. +Because there is a way forward, it is about negotiation, it is about hunt the hunting community, it is about sharing ideas and looking for a way forward, going forward from here, well to turn a blind eye to what goes on and vote for that amendment is very similar to what Hitler did in Germany fifty years ago. +The national populous actually turned a blind eye to atrocities that were happening with human beings. +It didn't just start off with human beings, they s started in sectors and it spread. +I don't think it's as bad as that here but I don't think it can ever happen here, hopefully. +But on the same score I'm afraid I must be an a narrow minded urban socialist well okay, I've never lived in a city but if you want to call me that, fine. +But what I do say is I am a trustee I am a trustee not of farmer's land not of your land Mr , not of your land Mr not of your land Mr every person in Leicestershire owns that land, they have got a mark and I'll tell you sir four thousand five hundred signatures made in one weekend are saying to us you are a trustee of our land, it's not your land, our land I keep hearing, it's our land it's not our land it's the people of Leicestershire's land and what the people of Leicestershire land are saying to us sir, they're saying to us you cannot continue this barbaric killing of foxes. +If it's a pest, cull it properly, get the authorities in, we've got more and more specialists sitting in those chambers telling us what to do on farming issues,on B S E, we've got coming, we've got a a team of experts, well not one of them has told said gone down in favour of hunting. +Some of them have actually turned round and said keep it up Mr , keep it up Mr , we will see the end of it one day. +Not all of them I accept and they've been very helpful and when it comes to erm any other issue, I think basically, unfortunately sir, I think that we have strayed from the debate, we've strayed onto ethnic issues er er and I think it's a shame Mr , there was no need to introduce that and of course it was bound to bring a backlash, it was bound to introduce it it it it's coloured it it's made opaque the issues because you make it complicated, in actual fact er er I think that er being a governor of a school, I think that's absolutely marvellous that some youngsters the future, I think the future will decide, I think there are kids out there will turn round one day and say how could you have done that? +How could you really have witnessed that?and when I say that finally I want to talk about terrier men because basically they're the people who've ruined your sport the terrier men are illegal, the terrier men are doing something that is definitely illegal in this country. +To open a fox hole and to introduce a dog into the tunnels to come across an undefended vixen, she's bound to fight. +Survival instinct is absolutely incredible, to see the wounds of a terrier and a fox when they have locked jaw locked and are pulled squealing out of a hole, I think I am deeply concerned about anybody here today that can turn that blind eye because what their terrier men are doing is dog fighting, make no bones about it, they won't be interested in laying the scent, they will not be interested in being retrained and helping your fraternity. +They're there for one reason and one reason only I know, cos I've been involved in fox hunting, I've shot and fished but I'll tell you something, was also trained to hunt humans, going back many years ago, when I was in the Falkland Islands training for the event that happened eventually. +One of the things that I used to do was train and I know the feeling, I know the excitement, I know the adrenalin that pumps round the body, when you go in for the kill. +I know because I've actually done it. +I look back now and think we are actually still doing that, not in the military aspect, in civvy street, we've got people, real nice people, you talk to them on the street and you get them at the kill and the hackles go up, you can see the adrenalin pumping round their body, you can see the kind of excitement in their eyes and you can see the terrier men grabbing by the the scruff of the neck, bleeding and then throwing. +Did you watch the v video when the the terrier men having a fox fought for its life, okay to have killed it there and then I would have accepted. +I could have turned a blind eye, but to grab it and to throw it to the hounds I think was absolutely abysmal. +I hope today we can get rid of this issue we can put it where it belongs in the House Of Commons, we can get rid of it and make sure that Leicestershire helps that and I am still willing to talk to the hunt. +I am still willing to get a forum together. +I am still willing to negotiate and talk to the organisations and look at the sport. +Keep the pageantry. +Keep the jobs. +Let's go forward together, not in not against each other +Adrian,it's near time +Let's go forward together. +Thank you Chair for the time. +Thank you for listening and I hope today +that we all vote just this once and get rid of it out of our hands into the place where it belongs the House of Commons. +Thank you Chair. +I will now put the vote on the amendment. +That's a surprise. +You, you're voting on Mr amendment. +Would you please indicate whether you're voting for or against or whether you are abstaining. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr . +For. +Mrs . +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +For. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +For. +Mr Mr B +For. +Mr C O +For. +Mr J R +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mrs . +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +For. +Dr. +Against. +Mr +For. +Mrs +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mrs +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr B C . +Mr N T +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr A . +Against. +Mr G +Against. +Mr Mr +Against. +Dr. +Abstain. +Dr. +For. +Professor +For. +Mrs +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Major Doctor +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr A J +For. +Mrs +Against. +Sir Lionel +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr E F +For. +Mr J N Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +and Mr +Yes, just go straight on to policy and resources, we we have to take it with the main motion, I mean if it's passed it's a s standing motion. +If it's not passed it's a motion. +I would just put it all those in favour say aye +Cos this is the crucial vote. +Yes, it's thirty seven for forty against and abstention +Th th thirty seven for forty against so it's lost. +Yes. +The result of the ballot is thirty seven for, forty against with one abstention. +I declare that the amendment is lost. +Hooray, hooray +Ask Mr. if he wants to say anything on the main motion. +Did you want to say anything on the main motion now er thank you. +All those in favour +All those in favour please say aye. +Aye. +Those against no right. +What's he asking to record a vote, the the this is on the main motion, could could I ask you to keep quiet just while we're doing the voting please cos it's very difficult to hear. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mrs +For. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +For. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr B +Against. +Mr C O +Against. +Mr J R +Against. +Mr Mr +For. +Mrs Mrs +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mrs +For. +Mr +Against. +Doctor +For. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +Abstain. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For +Mr B C Mr N T +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mis Mr +For. +Mr A +For +Mr G +For. +Mr Mr +For. +Doctor +For. +Doctor +Abstain. +Professor +Against. +Mrs +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +Mrs +For. +Mr +For. +Mrs +For. +Major Doctor Mr +For. +Mr +For +Mr A J +Against. +Mrs +For +Sir Lionel +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr E F +Against. +Mr J N Mr +For. +Mr +Against. +Mr +Against. +Mr +For. +Mr +For. +And Mr +Yes, I mean if if by any chance that was passed, I don't think it is if if by any chance it was it would just be the same as the amendment we had . +Is it c is it carried? +Yes, I think it probably is. back to page er twenty thirty three two abstentions so it's carried forty two thirty three in total. +The result of the vote is for car is carried forty two to thirty three. +Hooray +We will now proceed with agenda item number six report of the policy and resources committee. +Mr the agenda item number six please. +After this agenda item we will take a tea break. +Mr . +Thank you chairman, I think that I'll take it easy until the chamber empty and so. +Can you proceed Mr ? +I cannot find the page now through all that excitement here when I get to it I'll get to it some time page twenty five I'll be alright. +Can I say Chairman on on this report of the policy of the old policy and resources committee on the internal management of local authorities that was a very important issue because it's I all issues are important but in particular the the seal the report is to inform the council of comments which the policy and resources committee has agreed to make the association of county councils on the recommendation of the joint working party on the internal management of local authority Now I'm sure you, you've waded through the report at least some of the during the last er week or so that er that you've had it well I would advise you to turn to page thirty and thirty one because there's lot eas and it'll make life easier for you, if you do that and there on the bottom half of page thirty you will see the decisions of the policy and resources committee. +I can't remember at the policy and resources why it was decided by a majority because in in replying to this report on making our comments to this report,I first had consultations with officers to go through some of the items that we had done and issues that we had covered in this authority especially the members' services sub committee and we knocked off the bare bones of er a report to the policy and resources committee and the policy. +Should keep them brief. +A result, I can't hear myself speaking if I are the policy and resources committee there were other they were erm er in the debate there were some very good cases brought in to it and some erm good recommendations and this is why I'm surprised I'm er forget now why, there were some who were er against by majority because I believe that when we look down on the decisions of the P N O, we have made some very good recommendations if I say so it says on twenty, paragraph twenty in and you people on this authority, members of this authority have been saying a a clear definition of the role of the local government now and for the next twenty years, should underpin any consideration of local authority management structures and the role of members and therefore the joint working party's consideration begin from an inadequate base. +So what we're saying is really is that the defi definition and the role of local government should have been debated I think from starters. +When then, then we could have, we could have operated amid recommendations from a a different base. +On three, if you see then three that we the county council will not support a development of capital, cabinet or executive management, arrangements which would tend to concentrate power in the hands of a relatively few members stifle public debate and diminish the role of the majority of members. +I think we we have quite some time on this one and I'm sure you will all agree that a reply that we do not go down the road of a cabinet government. +I never, never would be a believer as was others, of a a cabinet government. +I'm sure it's been operated in some places but your policy and resources committee do recommend that we do not go down that road. +For as said with all three of the county councils not support the taking of new powers to promote experiment cabinet of executive management arrangements. +What they've been saying is that some authorities might have experiments in the cabinet arrangement we're not advising to go down that road because and on which point we don't agree with that type of of government. +And on H Little H and I'm skipping through them because I'm sure a lot of you would like to get to the tea pot. +Here, here. +Here, here, I second that on H on page thirty one very important one, the county council welcomes the recognition by the joint working party of the importance of meaningful support services to the elected members and the recomme recommendation that the Secretary of State should review and clarify the powers of local authorities to meet costs of services provided to members to enable them to carry out their duties as councillors Now the erm members appointments, appointments of member services sub have been discussing this issue and I would like to point out to members that we are not claiming the amount allowable for the paying members allowances we erm we're way below the limit that's allowable by the government Now before anyone say well what have you done about it? +I and some others have tried to do something about it because you'll remember in the last year last two years, we have put in a a sum of money in the budget to increase the allowances for members and for resources to to support members. +Not because I suppose and I must condemn any particulars group we all, in the end said not this time. +But I say you're foolish not to have put that in the budget. +Because it it's an essential part as of running a good authority and that is to have the resources to support the members of that authority because it is a profession, a semi professional job you sit on committees that make decisions. +I think you should, allowances should be at at least support you in that and also from those allowances other resources that provide for research etcetera for the members. +So I make no apology for raising this one. +I will never make an apology for increase in member's allowances and resources to support members in training etcetera and the tools to do a good job, given the tools, give you the tools to do a good job. +I hope I will, that we will have support in it on this issue and I don't want to take up all the time but it is something that members do approach me in, and and others on the members' services sub and I hope we have time Chairman to er give this report some consideration and let's say it's a v , it's a very important if you Chairman want any additionals to the recommendations, or if you say we're going too far in the recommendations because those recommendations you have down in front of you will be forwarded on and you're officers and your your your policies and resources they've given some time on on this report and therefore on the bottom of page thirty one the motion to be moved says that the comments of the policy and resources committee and the recommendations of the joint working party and the internal management of the local authorities be noted for submission to the Association of County Councils as appropriate. +I move +Seconded, reserve the right +Mr +Thank you Chairman. +these are recommendations from a joint working party D of E of the erm local authority association and they are to almost unbelievable for us to consider and I can only assume that the that we must remember that this is really a response to what I call Heseltine's last squeeze which was the idea of executive mayors and so in a sense lip service which has to be paid somewhere along those lines but it does recommend that we think seriously about cabinet govern government about single party committees and I can't imagine how anybody in their right minds would argue now that the cabinet government when they see what cabinet government leads to in Westminster and what de facto cabinet government leads to in majority ruled councils up and down the country erm, there is of course a I think a misleading er er brownie point the idea of relaxing restrictions on members allowances but members must realise why that is in there. +It's in there because you can't have executive style cabinet government in local government unless you pay executive councillors executive salaries, it's got nothing to do with the idea of you getting thirty five pounds rather than thirty three if we stay here all day erm I would just, I'm really wisely advised to make one point er Mr er was c wondering why this didn't have majority support actually most of it did I think Mr will confirm that he and his colleagues were happy to support all of the proposed responses from A to J on page thirty and thirty one but were not happy with response B and I would like to er that erm that er when our responses do go forward it is made clear that apart from little paragraph B there was all party support because I really feel that our local authority associates need to know that and erm I hope that will be little B was er a piece that erm certainly I and my colleagues supported er, rather . +I mean in response to the general tone of the argument which was they want us to increase the leadership roles in the, in in local government and in in local communities and local councils we would we thought that +that was inconsistent with the continual removal of the responsibilities from local government into quangos and er and er Mr and his colleagues were not happy with that. +So with that er suggestion Chairman I'll, I think I'll let you all get to tea. +Mr +Thank you sir. +Yes that's erm correct er the majority view's recommendations er did come from discussions and a large measure of agreement erm between er er all three parties on this council. +Er and Professor is right that it was paragraph B er which at the time was A A er it's now B B, that caused er me and er my colleagues some difficulty erm in er policy and resources and it will be the reason for which we don't support it this afternoon. +Erm er perhaps I could refer just briefly as to why not. +Paragraph B suggests that er we're dealing with a report which proports to address er community leadership and representation that's not the purpose of the report. +The purpose of the report is set out in erm paragraph two three of appendix one and that's on page thirty seven of the council report er which says quite clearly that things are changing in all areas of the public sector. +New management styles are being developed to deal with new roles new circumstances. +Local governments at the forefront of this changes. +The local authority has to look not only to its traditional role as provider of services but also, this is the critical bit to one where the emphasis is now more on specifying requirements, coordinating functions, monitoring performance. +The existing committee structure and many features of common practice erm as the best ways of managing service provision. +It may not be so any longer and it's because this report deals with this aspect that I feel this a vital and important matter er that that in fact comes in front of us. +Unfortunately erm er, the er argument has been sidetracked into a spat about whether you've got more powers or you haven't got more powers and er and other matters and er er I don't think if we're gonna get a sensible response to the D o E that we need to axe er er grind axes in that way. +There's no doubt Chairman local government is changing erm the Leicestershire management initiative actually acknowledged the need to change to an enabling authority. +Would that it were as easy as sticking your hand up to vote for it Because I have to say that I see no evidence since that motion approving the management initiative was passed of Labour and Liberal members doing any more than paying lip service. +We've had at least two opportunities in the past two years for reorganising our own structure. +We started with committee structure those attempts have foundered on intransigence over the whole nature of a review process. +Even as late as last May we had the opportunity for restructuring a number of committees we flunked it. +What in fact oh no. +What came forward was the lowest common common denominator, the least er the least that could be agreed without any argument. +It was a timid first step as to what, compared with what we ought to be doing. +Well thank you indeed. +If you'll allow it. +Oh, you're too kind +You're too kind. +Now chairman. +Chairman wants his tea. +Chairman wants his tea not yet Mr . +I do +If we are going to deliver to the people to whom we as elected members owe the highest duty, that's the people who are in receipt of our services the sort of quality service that we, that they deserve then I have to say that we can have as many reports of this nature as we like, but you have got to acknowledge the need to change and you have got to stop resenting the rights of parents and governors to run schools, you've got to stop being obstructive to competitive tendering and you have got to stop arguing for the retention of services where it's patently obvious that there's over provision. +Now but you don't have to but it in fact if, there's no point that's it get you +do your arguing through the Chairman +If you wish to continue or you wish to recreate a nineteenth century corporatist local authority that's fine. +If you wish to deliver +Inappropriate services at a higher cost than necessary to members of the public, that's fine. +At least have the honesty to admit it and not to vote for an a management initiative that says we're gonna become an enabling authority and then it subsequently to deny every single measure that will allow that to happen. +Thank you. +Sorry Mr +Thank you Chairman. +Erm I heard er Professor have a go at cabinet government. +Can I throw one back at him? +Because one of the Liberal Democrat experiments in Tower Hamlets er devolving real power, real power to area councils or or community councils +has suddenly backfired and allowed a noxious element to it, to creep in because, if I might just carry on. +What happens is that the council is Liberal Democrat controlled and the area council is Labour controlled and these two fight and that's allowed the third obnoxious force to creep through so it's not just Conservative cabinet government that is the problem. +Gentlemen, I I do want to make a point because I know we're not ready for elected Mayors or cabinet governments but I do think we c we can do a lot more to er improve our own internal workings here. +Th there's still too much trivia on committee agendas. +W we still seem to debate certain things three, four and five times they creep their way through to the main committee and full council and I have to say that the point in para B about the report we've been sent not recognising the reduction in local er government responsibilities it it is it's a bit rich, because our response to that report doesn't recognise that when I first arrived here Chairman we had the education department which was responsible for all the schools, six colleges of further education, college of art, college of agriculture, the teacher training college at and a major polytechnic. +It had three education sub committees, a major education committee, numerous sub committees, working parties and all sorts. +All that's now gone. +Schools run themselves some have left the authority, we still have three education sub committees a major education committee, numerous sub groups and working parties and it's gone time we recognised the changing world and streamlined the members side of the education department in the same way that the officer side's been streamlined and slimmed down. +Thank you +Er, Mike +Mrs +Like insisting that tenant. +you've spoken. +I would like to +Mrs , Mrs is speaking. +Mrs is speaking +Chairman, my point of order, my point of order I second and I reserve my remarks I was waiting to see if you called me last. +Right. +I assume you were asking me if I got any remarks last +I got you down in sight yes. +Thank you Chairman. +I'd like to congratulate the officers and the members on the formulation of these decisions. +All of them as far as paragraph B is concerned it deals with the reduction in local government responsibilities and the growth of non-elected bodies. +Need I remind council about such things as charge capping the fact that the government wishes to remove non-elected members or a majority of them, from police committees. +Need I remind council of the fact that the funding for grant maintained schools will be entirely in the hands of fifteen people that are nominated by the government and nobody else. +No. +And as far as non-elected bodies goes about two fifths of all public money is now spent by quangos who are not accountable to the people of this country in any way shape or form so I recommend all of these decisions, including paragraph B. +It is absolutely essential that the democratic base of this country is not eroded in any way. +There should be a majority of the citizens involved in the decision making of local government and national government. +I and my colleague here have the pleasure and the privilege of serving on a vast majority of a Liberal Democrat erm local authority. +Heaven help it if we or any other minority among a majority party, of any colour of any persuasion, was allowed to govern as an as an executive. +That would be totally wrong and totally undemocratic and heaven help us if we ended back in the situation where we had a lady in number ten Downing Street who waved the hand bag at all and sundry without any thought at all for the democratic situation +Can you be quiet please. +The democratic base must remain as wide as possible and I commend all these paragraphs to council. +Thank you. +I'm advised that the Chairman can call the reserve, the speaker who reserved his remarks at any time. +Now, I appreciate my, there wasn't time to overrule really but in this incidence do you wish to speak but if that point can be made so that it for future debate we know it. +Right, would you want to speak, you reserved your remark. +Not really, just to endorse the comments that councillor made. +Every council, er every councillor on this authority is of equal value to the people who elected them er and to the electorate and their role is very much diminished by anything to do with a er executive erm er government of that nature. +I endorse everything that was said and everything that said. +Mr do you wish to reply? +I must er thank Mr for really outlining what it's all about and cover all the issues because because Mr referred to no part being taken away. +Mrs quite right, what about the quangos? +They're growing up all over the place and as you say, Ernie he he he did say about education but whose gonna run education in the future same as social services, you'll soon find they'll social services up into the health service. +The health service which we've ignored democratic likes of people just appointed. +Is this wha what you want for the future? +I think the I I'm pleased that this is in the in B, because let 'em know how we feel about it. +We'll not follow these quangos, we're not for taking away the power, the power should mean at least we're accountable. +Councils are accountable to the electorate and that's how it should be. +Because because you say about, he is accountable to the people because the the councils win the ballot box. +And the members? +The members are accountable and let me go back about the committees. +I make no apology for the number of committees that we have and I make no apology for the numbers on the committee. +Because it makes sure that it is democratically run. +Let me point out and another thing to that members are allowed to play as full a part in the decisions of this council. +Because was before the observations of Mr it just that you're going back to cabinet government anyway cos you say t take a few on each committee, just have a few small committees and they'll do the job. +I can tell you you're in for some trouble if you start that because I I is you you're all in trouble if you want to start these smaller committees, we have looked at the committees and as I say we make no apology for the number of committees or the number that's on 'em. +But on the question of competitive tendering I think mentioned by Mr which he says we should have a different attitude. +We will have a different attitude, we'll bear to watch what is happening in competitive tendering and to ask questions and to get the right the facts on competitive tendering because we found a lot of these round the competitive tendering don't you, don't you worry and we ain't finished with it yet I can tell you and also we have ev , the people who are, the in house, walking in the house, have a right to have some protection from it, to see that when we dole out those contracts that it least they are genuine and they've got a someone to see that that their interest is looked after. +I would commend the motion as it stand Chairman and hope that the that the council will vote for it. +And now I will take the vote. +Those in favour please show. +It think that's carried Chairman. +Yes. +those against. +That's carried. +That is carried right right, thank you. +We will now have a tea break, back here at five and twenty to six. +Right, I think we'll call them to order shall we. +Yes, let's +A thought er went, slipped by me er we must upon this council thank the committee staff that controlled the multitude outside, er they weren't trained for it but can the er thanks of this council for their endeavours in keeping the situation calm be recorded. +Er, now then, next item er the Moat Centre Highfields youth er marked Mr . +Chairman. +Can I can I informally move section B on the policy and resources put forward. +You can. +Moat Centre and Highfield youth community centre because Chairman that there is er some amendments I'd formally move. +Secretary has reserved the right to speak Chair. +Amendments Amendments have we got. +Amendment by Mr +Erm, we feel we need to move this amendment, cos it appears to be the only way to actually get the council decision implemented Chairman and to avoid a continuation of the wrecking tactics used by the Labour group. +Every time this matter's been before either committee or council there has been a majority in favour of the merger principles. +The delay in making progress has blighted the development of the provision in the area and in particular, the leaking of the report of the problems of the moat centre has brought some dreadful headlines about the area and I hope whoever leaked that document is pleased with himself herself himself theirselves. +Now, I understand Chairman that the Lib Dems have changed their minds now and succumbed to the demands of the Labour group +I will not support this amendment. +I I find this quite extraordinary Chairman after two years of consistently arguing and voting in committee and at council, they appear to have been bought off by the Labour group and now intend to to support a fudged half merger, half federation option. +If they really believe that the merger was the best way forward, they must now be be supporting something that they know to be less than best and and this is now rendered all the bad feeling and all the destruction of the past two years, a complete waste of time. +If this is what is offered as the advantage of a hung council, I fail to see the benefit. +We remain convinced that full merger is the best way forward and the amendment will e enable the project to make progress If the Lib Dems have changed their mind Chairman and do support the forthcoming Labour amendment erm th the worst aspect for me is that I've lost a bet because Bob bet me a year ago that the Lib Dems would not last the distance and he's been proved right. +Now what have we got. +Mr . +Thank you Chairman. +I assume Chairman that that if this amendment is whether it is carried or not we should be debating the other amendments separately. +Sorry I'm sorry I was, I was looking for speakers, I'm ever so sorry sorry Chairman. +Yes. +We we shall, if this amendment, whatever happens to this amendment the other amendment will be fought separately and it will be debated separately. +there are no speakers on this so put the the amendment. +Well may I, may I second it please Chair? +If you yes +Yep. +Do you wish to speak on it? +Yes please. +I I do second it because if all aspects I actually supported, that is to say I support that the the first part of the of the amendment which is the motion from the policy and resources committee as well as the bit that has been er added on erm as far as the latter is concerned I support it, largely for the reason that Mr has explained. +It is not a particularly satisfactory way of progressing I accept that. +But on the other hand the delays that have been caused by procedural motions +and I accept that that nevertheless contributed a great deal to added uncertainty and added unrest in the Highfields area. +At one of the effects of that delay I suspect has been the need for the supplementary estimate which is measured, er mentioned in part B. +A good part of that is I think, a consequence of the delay that we've had in implementing the wishes that this council has expressed before. +Thirty seven thousand pounds is a lot of money it's a lot of money even compared with the five hundred odd thousand that's already in the revenue budget for er the operation of these two centres. +It's even a lot of money I think compared with the what is it, one point four million pounds that is transferred th through the youth and community budget into the Highfields area and that itself is a lot of money when people recognise that we are actually spending the equivalent of one tenth of the total county youth and community budget in one area of the county. +We had questions at the very beginning of this meeting which seems an awful long time ago now er asking for youth provision in other areas of the county. +Well I'm sure that those other areas are, would be just as anxious of the people to have +Can I have some respect for the speaker +adequate youth and community provision in their areas. +I know I would and I wouldn't blame anybody else for doing so. +So, the situation in that is quite serious and it behoves us to take it seriously, it behoves us to make sure that if we are putting resources of that magnitude or of any magnitude perhaps, then we have to make sure that they are managed properly for the effective delivery of the services which we intend er that them to be used for. +It's for that reason that I still support the original line which was to merge the centres with a common management structure headed by a single head of the project. +That I support the addition that that we that we should get on with it as quickly as possible and I suppose also that I regret the support that the request for an extra thirty seven thousand or whatever it is pounds in order to enable that to be carried out. +So therefore Chairman I I do in fact support the amended er motion. +Professor +Thank you Chairman. +I agree with a great deal that has been said by Mr . +He knows we have always been of the view that given the limited resources that the best cost effective use of those resources would be to merge the administration . +But as he has also said,for longer that any of us care to remember all attempts at rational arguments over the best use of resources in Highfields have been drowned out by noise from the grinding of axes. +Vested interests have defended the status quo with great skill and determination and they've had their axes sharpened using er sharpeners energised by the oxygen of Labour's irresponsible backing off. +Money and effort that should have been devoted to supporting the ordinary people in Highfields has been wasted on power politics and I agree that it's time surely to put an end to that disgrace now there is a certain logic in Mr amendment, it basically says let us put the implementation of council policy in the hands of the director of education, let him take executive control and let us take politics out of it and if I thought that that would do what both Mr and myself want to happen I would support. +But er unfortunately those on the ground who have shown their skill at wrecking anything that doesn't suit their purpose with the support of the Labour group, those on the ground will still be there and I don't believe that er giving the director of education the executive powers is going to stop them continuing to take the sort of action they've been taking. +Nor do I actually think it's going to stop the Labour members of this council from continuing with their support. +So I don't think that it's now the logical way forward. +Furthermore Mr himself has said to me on more than one occasion that given the history of the situation it's unlikely that we would get anybody of sane mind to take over the running of the two centres. +For that reason we will support the amendment that's been moved by Labour. +Set a single head to a single head of the two buildings +There will be a single budget which we've always argued for in the management committee the head of centre will and this is very important and I hope members are clear the head of centre which is the head of the Moat Centre which is the proposed under the amendment will be appointed within this financial year, will be appointed out of the existing budget. +The reason why this amendment in my view is one that can take us forward is that it places responsibility now for clearing up the mess clearly where it belongs and that's with the Labour group. +This is a Labour amendment it is up to them now to implement it implement it within existing budgets is what it says and we shall see whether they take their responsibilities as seriously as they should. +Labour will now be on the line they will have to deal with the axe grinders instead of helping them to sharpen their axes and the difference between ourselves and Mr and I have great respect for Mr and I believe his attempt to keep the debate about the future of Highfields and Moat on a rational basis has been very positive but completely unsuccessful and I believe now that we have to look for a way forward. +We are not being bought off by Labour. +This is less than best but it's better than nothing, that's the point and it is very nearly what we have argued for from the very beginning. +I think that Mr has lost his bet because we are a party who is not obsessed by ideology we are not prepared to act indefinitely like bulls in a china shop when the owners of the shop have an infinite supply of china We want to move forward and we want to move forward in the real world and the idea that a strong government and sticking to what you want through thick and thin when clearly you're not going to get the result you want, as indeed the government did over the poll tax, in the end you have to recognise the reality the Labour group, as much as anything else, are part of that reality. +The responsibility will now be theirs and they'd better get on with it and better show things that they've been arguing and get along. +Mr . +I was er a little lost there er Mr Chairman. +Do I understand you are handing over your responsibilities to the Labour group, washing your hands of them. +You said twice just now it's up to the Labour to put this into effect. +Now I don't call that er er democracy, that's a washing of the hands er I've followed with interest this Moat Centre which as you know is w w , is one of Highfield's many village halls erm +For those of you that don't know can I remind you that in the last few years one million pounds of capital was spent on Moat Centre alone on the cost together the moment of running Moat Centre for Highfield's youth is five hundred thousand a year. +ridiculous waste of money +Now I suggest that the Labour and the Liberal think very carefully about this. +You might get a backlash you might find that the rest of the citizens of this county want to know, want to know what on earth you're doing pouring money into this area when the rest of the county gets nothing. +They'll also want to know why you're doing it, when there's been constant obstruction for two years. +There's a supplementary estimate here. +I'm delighted to have given them two er security men does it mean security men are now available for all the county? +If any of us have got troubles at our schools where there's vandalism, will you provide us, at the tax payer's expense,with a security man? +You pour the money into this, it's bounced back on you but as usual there is no limit. +I've heard members from the other side say money doesn't matter this is democracy. +This is what the people want and money must not interfere with their wishes. +That only seems to apply in the Highfields area. +I suggest that the Labour and particularly Liberal feel, think very carefully about the quality of service that is provided by this county er council cos at the moment there is neither justice or equity in it. +There are areas that are just what they want things passed on the hoof. left, right and centre when anyone else outside these areas wants it we're told no money, no capital, can't be spent this year, wipe it off and I think you should be very careful or you might have a backlash where you least want it. +Thank you. +Mr +Thank you Chairman. +Erm I think really for Mr to talk about washing of hands er he's got some brass neck when I remember every year, every year I mean hopefully he won't be able to do this next year, what does he say it's your budget and he looks over there your budget, you implement it. +If that's not washing of hands I'm not too sure what is. +Er, Chairman erm, I do believe that this has always been an issue erm of vested interests and bureaucracy administration but all I want to say to members of the council today as a member of the youth and community advisory committee is that extremely serious er far reaching decisions are gonna have to be taken because we were told at the last meeting of that sub committee that just to stand still because of the changes in legislation regarding transfer of funds to the er F E funding council, we will lose a further two million pounds next year so even if we er do not have to find any cuts within our own budget that money is going out of this authority's budget it may come back in in commissioning agreements but because of the different timescale that the funding council works on we probably won't know that when we come to set our budget and really the issue for the Labour group I think in particular as councillor has said, is the question of budgetary control. +Because I I would say that all members of the council face those kinds of cuts. +Faced with those kind of possible reductions in service, if there is a penny one penny more than necessary spent on administration and bureaucracy wherever it is in the youth and community programme that is gonna be less money for front line vision and the Labour group can have to think very, very carefully about that and the issue is gonna be that if we're spending too much money or if they're coming back to supplementary estimates which won't be available er given the financial situation next year if we're having two heads of centres or whatever when we could have one that is gonna mean less money for front line services to the people of Highfields and there'll only be one group that will be responsible for that, if that does come about and I think that's something that we all need to bear in mind because what we were told as members of that committee is that the youth and community budget is gonna be in for some very serious times in the future and it's mainly the government's fault because of the way they've decided to re-organise the situation it's going out of our hands into the control of an unelected body and like most members of this council I think we would oppose that but that's the reality of the situation and I could not support any increase of funds er for any community centres if I knew it was simply gonna be spent on administration. +Thank you. +Mr +Could I have Mr Chairman cos it's a, is it an order of government to support Mr at the same time or should I do . +No just deal with this and let their deal with the amendment as it is. +As it is. +I'm sorry come again clarify +I said would it,in order now just to deal with the amendment on my own sir or support Mr at the same time? +We've only got this one. +No we've got the other amendment but it's not been moved yet. +It's not been moved. +No you'll have to deal with this one because the other one has not been moved yet. +Right, I'll deal with this one I I'll deal with this one and be very careful as I say. +I I wanted to make three points really. +Er, I did at the last council urge that we actually needed to break the deadlock my er a and I thought that was very important. +I was ruled out of order, I erm I there were point out then that twenty five new councillors and I understand it wasn't legitimate if I wanted to to restrict the vote only to those twenty five so that the rest of you would actually realise that this has gone on far too long, I only put that as a I think it is very, very important erm that we break new ground. +At the last council meeting we did two things or two things have happened. +One, we set up a w er er a working group which has brought together that consultation addressed that consultation argument and I would point out that Mr amendment er does clearly enshrine that as obviously something which is now seen as useful, er and I think that's important. +The thing I don't like about this amendment is it actually moves us nowhere and we cannot after what we've seen over the summer, move nowhere. +Now those of us who've been involved on the Moat Highfields sub committee will have a need to know that when we were faced with really serious and horrendous problems, we found when faced with the reality and a great deal of detailed information, that an extraordinary amount of three party cooperation was achieved. +It resulted in the erm extra requirement for security which does happen to which Mr has referred and I I think it's it's very very important to realise that if that three party cooperation can be achieved as it should be, bearing in mind what Simon says that we are going to have to do this, with horrendous problems in the youth and community project in the future and we would be failing completely in our duty, not just to the people of Highfields,but to the people of this whole county if we simply allowed politics, as has been done in the past, to lead to entrenched positions and the idea of simply saying to the director, we are in a mess therefore will you please deal with it all is I think wildly irresponsible and I'm very very surprised indeed that erm that point should be put. +The reasoned, the reasoned proposals which are contained in a very thought out amen which has in fact contains ideas submitted by many different people of different persuasions to try and ensure that ideas could be erm worked at solidly does break the endless delays. +It means that there is a way of going forward, the only question that remains was that head of project as Professor said who is in their right mind would want to erm, apply for such a job at the moment, it's probably an unworkable idea. +If in the future the single management committee on the two headed centre decide that they want a single headed project then only Pharuk hearing which I always subscribe to that it should be decided locally, they may have that said project I'm sure you'd agree, if they choose to have such one, if they feel that they need it, but we want to ensure, do we not, and the amendment doesn't do this that we actually get a move on, that we spend the money we have, what little there is and there is very little on delivering the services, that we fuse the bureaucracy which is clearly contained in the other and, clearly contained, it's spelt out in in in in tablets of stone in a way that's never been done before. +It is extremely positive it sta , it clears these points up and and answers most of these questions so I would urge Mr Chairman that to on sheer education, on terms of provision of services, I'm not party to all of the politics , I agree with what you said, absolutely crazy. +I would however I I with great trepidation as I don't think I've ever dared do it before, er is try to actually clarify the thoughts of my leader erm it is not erm, have I your permission erm I I I feel I feel he may, I feel that +may have been a professional slip of the tongue i in saying that now be up to Labour, it is not up to Labour at all, it is up to all of u , it is up to all of us, it is up to all of us all, and you and you and you, you can't dump responsibility, it is up to all of us, all of us +to work together and deliver an effective result because nobody gains anything in the eyes of the people of this county by allowing this thing to go on and on and on and what they feel is if we can't get to grips with it what on earth are we doing with our existence. +That is why the amendment is a far, far better thing than this rather grubby amendment we have before us. +Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman. +I've followed the events of of this erm unhappy but hardy perennial some time now erm I've found it unusual because there was no Liberal volte face until now and er quite a lot of things happened where the Liberals changed their mind and I naturally started to wonder what has happened to make this change of mind come about and all I'll say is I hope that it doesn't have much to do with events in other counties or with any by-election. +Ooh, ooh, +at least we have a mind. +Thank you yes, are there I think this is unique er a unique occasion where we haven't got a Labour speaker so if there's no Labour speaker then +Right, we'll press on those in ing I accept that. +But +Put those against. +Those against the amendment is lost just. +We now move have we another amendment? +Yes the purple paper. +The purple paper the mover please. +Mr +I've been I've been advised chair that I've made the same mistake as you did so. +They're so particular aren't they sometime but there you are Chair, Chairman I'm grateful er from the indications that have been already made by a number of speakers that they are amenable to the contents of this amendment. +Can I can I say before I do launch into the amendment to Mr that you have played your card at the last election and the Leicestershire public has resoundedly given their answer to your particular policies. +So I don't think anyone here as an elected member, needs to defend their positions if they wish to move from a political or a bureaucratic policy to something which is more pluralist and much more representative of the kind of policies that this council should be discussing not only now but also in the future. +No one has to defend anything to anyone. +Chair and +and at the same time can I say that you do not equate elitist views and pleasures and pastimes that they may have down in the county somewhere with the kind of deprivation that people face in the inner cities. +You do not equate that, it is irresponsible and I'm s , I'm sorry that the these remarks were made earlier. +Chairman, can I say briefly that the merger and I'm quite pleased that we've finally er there is a death knell to this this awful word, it's been bandied on for far too long, it's been perhaps the single most controversial issue that has been debated by this authority along with some other mediocre issues and no one here would not admit er to the fact that it has been opposed on such massive scale and even today we've had a further petition of three hundred and ninety five people opposing er this this this dreadful merger decision that was hanging over the er the the two centres and I'm pleased that er this this er amendment, this er er erm this petition was brought forward today because it does indicate the continuing support and opposition to er the the kind of things that we should be doing and and those that we shouldn't. +Can I also say Chairman that there is now a possibility of implementing a semblance of a federated provision er which will take into account and recognise the very important needs of that particular area. +Importantly as it's highlighted in the petition. +The much valued community education services offered by the multi-cultural family orientated Highfields youth and community centre and the kind of development of services that could take place at the Moat, Moat centre. +Now, we hear time and time again of the one million capital that was spent and yes and I do hope that the provisions that will now be made through a combined budget which Mr seems to think is half a million but I can assure you it is not half a million however, I do I can further reassure him that by the time the Highfields er and Moat management committee have gone through with this it will be half a million, there will be a proper budget provision as it should have been in the last five to six years. +Unfortunately that hasn't been the case. +Chairman, er I don't want to prolong the debate because as I've mentioned before there is indicated support from a number of people er but I'm grateful er to the Liberals in the fact that they feel that they are in a position to support this amendment. +Much more importantly, not only does it preserve the integrity of the people of Highfields but I guess in many ways it preserves the integrity of both the parties concerned while moving and supporting this particular amendment. +Can I say finally Chairman, that I will be instigating a er a request er I shall be requesting I should say perhaps to the director of education that erm the three party spokesman on the management committee and all those officers who will be involved in implementing this decision will get together at the earliest and I'm citing possibly next week so that we can be on our way to plan the next step forward to a concrete implementation of this particular proposal. +That's how serious we are and although Mr er has to give his little laugh but I hope that he is just as much serious er particularly now that the political realities are that we will have a way forward, of not only supporting the delivery and management of community education services in that particular area but a clear focus has now been given, hopefully after this amendment er has been carried to the education authority. +Thank you Chairman. +Have we a seconder? +Right Mr +Chairman, I've listened with erm interest to Professor erm weasel words explaining that he didn't mean what he's been saying for the past three years and trying to explain away what he's effectively and he might as well admit it a complete volte face worse than that his agreement to an arrangement which he knows is second best. +I also listened to Mr I didn't understand what he was saying but I did listen to him er the bit that I did er catch was his denial that erm the revenue budget for Moat and Highfields was half a million well he's quite correct because I've got the figures here. +They're in fact five hundred and one thousand, one hundred and thirteen and if Mr is erred by one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds I would hope he'd forgive him, the fact is that this year's budget for those two buildings er, is that amount. +Er, er Mr might have added that er the village hall management committees which er he has a great affection would not be unhappy if they had the sum of five hundred and one thousand one hundred and thirteen pounds with which to provide sources, er resources for the communities that he represents. +Chairman er in his remarks a bit earlier on Professor said that he did not think it was appropriate to give executive power to the director of education I wrote your words down at the time he did not think it appropriate to give executive power to the director of education and he said, despite Mr 's clarification you want to move a bit nearer if you're going to be his minder Mr that in fact he didn't +that Liberals are incapable of sustaining er the same argument in committee, er sub-committee, main committee and council and I have to say er that erm er placing a bet with Ernie was taking money off children. +And I'm I'm I I'm I'm delighted er I shall be encouraging them to pay up promptly. +Now I do ask myself this this question erm I can recognise the argument that if you if you're not actually going to achieve your objectives you have to change your mind. +I'm surprised that comes from er er Professor and his party who have for example campaigned for years for proportional representation, they know they're not gonna get it but are they gonna change their mind? +Precisely either Professor and his party believe in the that certain courses of action are right, that they espouse certain policies or they become hopeless opportunists. +Now we on these benches have suspected that in fact the Liberals are hopeless opportunists for a number of years. +Leave that to John Major +Er what I need er er and is helpful er, it would be helpful if Professor could give some confirmation of this. +Because it's quite clear from hereafter there is a moral to be learned for this saga. +All you need to do is to be sufficiently obstructive for a sufficiently long time and and his mates will turn around and throw up their hands and shak and and turn somersaults. +Now er I have to warn him there are that sort of conduct has been indulged in to the detriment of the people of Highfields over a significant period by the Labour party. +I have to warn Professor that there's more than one party can play that game and if he thinks that it is sensible to run the affairs of this council on deliberate obstructionism on the basis that if you go on long enough you can wear people down then I think it's unfortunate, it's bad for this council bad for the people we serve, it does frankly nothing for local government and I can't blame central government if it loses patience So I recognise at the end of the day that erm Mr has had troubles with some of his erm er newcomers he obviously needs to re-establish some control over his group. +I could recognise. +I can I can rec I can recognise when when the and tail are are wagging the dog. +Ooh, ooh, hiss +He needs to get his act together because if this continues then it will be Moat today and it'll be other issues tomorrow and frankly the business of this council will grind to a halt. +I think to support this motion is desperately unfortunate for a number of reasons. +Thank you Bob, you certainly, you certainly get us some fresh speakers in and Mr . +I think that to support this motion would be extremely unfortunate and would lead to potential disaster, not for the county council but indeed for the Highfields community. +I'm not surprised that Mr is happy to propose it because in fact it actually means that the status quo will in fact be cemented that that the situation that we've been faced with will in fact be enshrined and supported by the council and and the Labour party have been consistently advocating that really a and they will get their way if this motion is passed. +I have to say that I hope Mr in fact didn't actually write the words of the motion it looks to me and those members of the education committee will know what I mean like another version of the Docklands back garden fudge. +When somebody tried to fudge an iss tried to correct that embarrassment by totalling fuddi fudging an issue. +Because what will happen if this motion is implemented. +There will be a budgetary meeting of the county council, the education committee will sort out its youth and community budget and it will decide just how much it wishes t to to put to the combined centres. +The management committee will meet and it will divide the money into two and give each one however much the management committee feels that it should have and that management committee need not meet again for twelve months because there will be nothing for it to do. +The two issues, the two places will be operated separately. +If any party on the management committee doesn't like the split it will five member it back through the whole structure to this county council and we shall have proceeded no further. +Instead of having a working arrangement it is, will in fact be a total administrative disaster. +I suspect that if I had to find an alternative to what we've already proposed and what we've constantly supported, I would actually go right back to the, I would actually go right back to the beginning erm because it would be cleaner and it would be clearer. +There is no way in which any of us can, can advocate responsibility for the decision. +There is no way that any party, there is no way that the Liberal party can say to the Labour party or to anyone else, well we'll support you, we think you're getting in a mess but it's your problem, you can carry it because that roughly is what they actually said and if it does go wrong, as it is sure that it will I am quite sure that it will be quite wrong to blame the Labour party entirely for that process, because it won't be entirely their fault. +I therefore have no hesitation whatever in opposing this this total and absolute fudge. +There are two members I think have spoken from the Liberal benches concerning funding bureaucracy and I would agree entirely with what that means but they've also mentioned in the same bet, budgetary control and if you're going to control budgets, you have to have a minimal amount of bureaucracy and the function really of the head of the er of the project, er the head of the the post that's now slipped into oblivion with this motion, would actually have been to do two things it would have been to hold the two groups together and it would have been to have overall control of that budget and it wouldn't have been easy and I wouldn't have like the job and I wouldn't've applied for it and certainly would have been very difficult indeed. +But this really was the only way forward that I can see. +So there Chairman, all I can do is deplore the situation that we've look like arriving at, I think it's the worst of all possible worlds. +N +Chairman. +It ill behoves the party of the famous poll tax U-turn to lecture the Democrats on consistency. +Here, here +Erm, anyway that goes without saying I think. +Chair, I I think what needs to be said in this debate is something positive about the work that has come out of particularly Highfields, er and indeed to some extent Moat, in the past. +There's a lot of extremely good youth and community work has come out of Highfields youth and community centre in the past. +Here, here. +We have had committed staff we've had committed voluntary workers there and there's an awful lot of good practice which can still be upon, within that centre. +To do that you're going to need the good will of the workers within the centre, the local community, the workers within Moat and the different factions within Moat and the one thing that the Tory line did was to unite all those factions against what the county council wanted. +No matter what Bob says or Harry or any other member of the Conservative group, and I accept that they've always been consistent on it the same as the Labour group has always been consistently against the merger I accept that they've been consistently in favour of a total merger. +But politics is the art of achievable and what the Tories wanted was not achievable on the ground. +Indeed it could have led to great problems. +I was annoyed really to hear Harry speak and I I don't normally get annoyed with my friend Harry from Loughborough er, but I was annoyed to hear him talk of disaster if there is any disaster involved in this we are averting disaster today and this is a significant decision of the county council to move forward. +All the other decisions that were taken were bound to be opposed by the local community, the local youth and community staff and so on. +It was known at the time that there was going to be opposition to them and it was an absolute recipe for debate after debate, council meeting after council meeting, committee meeting after committee meeting. +Those of us who sat on the urban policies committee for a number of years seeing Moat devour and all the stoppages and problems there, knew that you were taking the wrong line. +The officers never recommended to us that we should have a lock stock and barrel merger. +The officers recommended federation and something similar to federation is what is on the table now. +What I would say is this three things. +One,the director of education has now got, and his staff, have now got to accept that they are no barriers to prevent moving forward on a linked, a form of linked centres. +The second point is that the staff and the community, with the support of the Labour group and now the Democrats, have finally got a compromise solution which may not give them everything but again gives them what is achievable within the political complexion of this council and they must now accept that there is an onus upon them to make it work and thirdly we have got to make sure that the staffing arrangements that are referred to in here and I quote there there'd be posts for each centre who will be expected to add each with staff teams to coordinate the delivery of services by the two centres. +There has got to be a willingness on the part of all the groups on this council and the officers of the various connected departments of this council to make sure that those teams are given the utmost support in delivering the youth and community service that the Highfields area needs and deserves. +The framework is there we, I think, know what the decision is going to be today. +Let's not chance that decision, let's all move forward together and cooperate and make it work. +Let's not have sniping from the Tory benches once we've taken this decision. +It has the sup the general support. +Maybe the grudging support of part of the community. +But it can work and it will work with our support. +There's a lot of good practice to build upon in Highfields. +Now we must do it. +Mr +Thank you very much Mr Chairman. +I think erm Mr was indulging in er very interesting political rhetoric during his speech. +Here, here +I'd be very interested to know er in terms of U turns which I'll come back to, how he's going to deal with the next item on the agenda er, whereby the Liberal Democrats have been consistent about their policy in general with a lot of obstruction and being caused problems and how Mr will agree in this chamber to actually close some people's homes, old people's homes +Thank you friends, we all know him as the one million pound councillor. +He's cost us, cost us a million pounds in the first year he was a councillor. +Now with regard to this particular thing, er this particular motion. +You have to come to a conclusion and Professor er described how we've had to come to a conclusion. +The the options seem to me, as Mr Mr said that the thing had got so convoluted and confused that the simple option seemed to be close it all down and I I would imagine that groups, other than ourselves who've had people like me in the group who've said why are this thing coming up again, let's close it down and have done with it. +That is the easy option, that's the option of people who've got nothing between the ears. +People who have intelligence and a conscience wrestle with these problems and we've come to a conclusion which is as good a deal as we think we can get, with the people of the area and with the Labour party and I think he said that if people in this authority are sufficiently obstructive for a sufficiently long time then people will change their minds. +But there's another side to that. +If people are obstructive long enough you listen and you think well, why are these people being obstructive. +Are they, are they have they, are they stupid, have they gone totally mad and they're obstructing this thing for ever and ever and ever just for the sake of obstructing and you have t to listen to what they say on on this, the argument that we're having here and have had here and the argument that we've had about old people's homes, they've been two running sores in this authority and hopefully today in both of them we'll be making progress and I think I'd like to. +Here, here +Thank you and I think I'd like to just point out to Mr . +He's always fore he's forever contrasting er these these er centres in Highfields with his village halls and er small village halls and that and that's very, the very truth, I'd like to refer him and he knows as well as I do that what he should really be comparing with are the youth and community provision across the county which is an enormous amount in excess of the amount we put into old people's homes and as Mr so rightly said, they're problems were gonna have to grapple with in the future and so you then look at what has been suggested, what has been proposed and the point that Professor made about the Labour party having to make it work, is because it is they and everybody knows it's they have been five membering this thing all the way through. +Now, now they are putting their name to to some positive action. +Now we we and the Conservatives in in the past have been in favour of a decision and a positive action and we would have seen it through. +It's only the Labour party who's obstructed it so now they're putting their name to this, they're the ones who've changed, they're putting their name to something different and therefore they're gonna have to live with it and if you look at it what have we got? +What we've got is two centres working together with a member management sub-committee they've retained the power to determine future management and staffi and staffing arrangements based on the principles set out below. +So if that management committee decides in a year's time or two year's time thank you when when we've been rolling on a bit and a lot of this has died down that they want a single headed project. +We will go ahead and do it and local people will own the problem and own the project and if they want to continue to have two separate administrations it would show in the budget and I don't think Mr 's right. +I don't think that management committee will meet, divide the money in two and then race off and never meet for another year. +I think they will manage these project together and over time they will come together and they will work together. +Thank you. +Mr +Thank you Chairman. +I would like to support the amendment and I would like to speak especially now the crocodile tears from the Tory party concern for the Highfield. +Four speakers from the Tory party mentioned the damage will be for the Highfield area. +How many times shall I stand up and lecture them about Highfield, I don't know. +I have been here for more than two years I have lectured them. +I have told them time and time again and the people have endorsed them and endorsed in voting pattern by giving me eighty nine percent of the vote. +Last April. +How many times shall I remind them that. +How many times I just don't understand. +On the amendment side I am reluctant it does infringe on a local democracy but I agree with the Liberal Democrats, it's a way forward and it's a responsibility of all of us I I agree with Roger when he mentioned that Professor mentioned that this is the Labour party like usually always mentioned it is your budget when the budget is approved it is the whole county council budget every member should be responsible for it. +Not just one party or central party or the third party. +How many of you know what transpired yesterday this time outside Moat Centre. +How many of you know that? +There was a woman who was assaulted,the Turks from the restaurant came down and beat a single man outside the Moat Centre. +For Mr when he mentioned two security staff, they were er bystanders, they didn't do nothing whatsoever. +Yes,we should sack him. +We should all of us be responsible for that building, not just myself or yourself. +Everyone should demand if the security guards are not functioning their duty we should not let them go by so +Who insisted what? +What. +Don't get into arguments, carry on with your speech. +Unfortunately this is the way the Tory always play their ploys on Highfield, they always think they are the champions of Highfield issue unfortunately they do not know what transpired in that area, they do not know the deprivation in that area. +Mark market might think a backlash they, they'd better look for himself to remind himself there's no backlash in Highfield. +If you support the amendment it is a way forward for all of us and I support the amendment. +Thank you Chairman. +Mr +Thank you Chair. +Can I first of all thank er Mr for his er his concern about my having to er deal with new young members. +Could I in return could I +Could I in return commiserate with him for not having any new members? +beg to differ +Because,because I I do feel sorry, I I sorry I consider it for not having any young new members. +But I do feel I do feel that er he will be, he will be assisted by having close people to clarify his thoughts for the council members. +Now erm if he had any as somebody says, well no I think he has some thought er simply +Might not be the correct ones. +Simply confused. +Erm, I think the charge that has been laid against myself personally and my myself and my colleagues is the charge of vacillation and changing our mind and I and I am grateful to c my colleague David for reminding us that we have in this county had two years two years when the Labour party and the Conservative party have been hand in glove, absolutely determined that the way forward in relation to homes, elderly persons homes, not that's not to close any and now we've had a complete volte face when they've changed their minds and they've come along with us. +How interesting. +Mr has also asked me whether it is true that if I can't get what I want second best will do. +I think the argument should be put slightly differently. +Would you prefer to have nothing rather than something? +Because for two years for two years the intentions of the Conservative group, which have been the intentions of ourselves have delivered on the Moat Highfield questions, delivered nothing. +That is the reality of what er Mike said and I'm sorry he pinched my line politics is the art of the possible and that is a message I'm afraid that the Conservatives on this council have never adopted. +time and time again they sit on the sidelines saying this is what we think don't talk to us about it don't debate it, don't ask us to think about it, take it or leave it, if you don't give us what we want we'll sit back and moan and sulk and they've played, I think that's a very irresponsible line they've played in the five years I've been on this council and I hope that er again the issue on the next item on the agenda represents a change of heart on their behalf. +of course goes on about what he always goes on about and er I would remind him that the supplementary estimates which is in the amendment here, is also in the amended motion which is proposed by the Conservatives and had all party support on every committee that it's come to. +Finally I I would say that to erm Mike I think the amendment that is now before us which we are supporting goes considerably further than the original federative option. +And has a combined budget which is in my view, the important thing that I believe was necessary in the life of the economic circumstances . +That combined budget will inevitably involve a redistribution of resources you are going to live up to what you are now putting your name to. +I don't think that Mr remarks were helpful. +Because I don't think the question of what's going on outside Moat Centre today or yesterday or the day after, has a lot to do with the actual alternatives that we've been . +What it does have a lot to do with is that the Moat Centre has not had clear significant management on the ground and what we're proposing here today should produce that in the very near future and what the proposals that Mr proposals would have done is not produced that in the significant future and I think that's the point that really needs to be stressed. +Thank you. +Mr +It's not my day really earlier today I had to admit to being grateful to John Gummer now I'm gonna have to be. +I know it's terrible isn't it I never thought I'd say that. +Now I'm gonna have to say I'm gonna be grateful to Mr it's a really bad day. +No I am grateful to Mr because he's finally crystallised in my mind something that's been bugging me the longer I stay on this council about exactly what the Tories see their role here as and it's now very clear to me, more than ever and that is that if you want to be obstructive and negative and if you go on long enough being obstructive and negative what you can end up doing is that you'll find yourself eventually in a position going on long enough that you can make totally meaningless speeches but at least you'll get nice headlines in the paper and that seems to me the whole essence of the Tory strategy. +When my colleague to my right here, Roger and myself put forward a motion at last council on this issue ably led by our glorious leader to my left I would like to say that we've set up. +Now what I would like to say is that we've made clear that we're with certain very clear objectives in pushing forward, in saying that certain things had to be achieved and when I read the lilac piece of paper or whatever colour we want to call it. +I see a set of conclusions that achieve almost everything that was demanded at that time and I am grateful to everybody concerned who's actually sat down and actually really thought about what we're trying to do and everybody has made some compromise here and I shall certainly support this amendment and I shall make the compromise because the one thing in here that I thought was necessary that isn't there is the statement that there will be a head of centre and having actually worked in a project, head of sorry, head of project and having actually worked in a situation where I was a joint manager erm in the long run I think people will see the the wisdom of of a single head of project. +But that's up fo that's up to people experience t t t t to conclude. +But the main there 'ere is, we haven't actually changed our position we have actually stated clearly that we wanted to achieve something, we wanted to make sure that what was being provided in that community was the best best thing possible within the resources available and that things developed on This amendment takes us that way forward and we are at least being clear to our principles rather than just being negatively obstructive. +Mr +Thanks Chair. +I just like to start off by saying and just reminding the council well in particular Mr in light of what he said that he doesn't understand what Mr is on about, well he's never understood the issue of the merger in Highfields. +Mr has made more publicity on this issue than any other councillor. +I think there's no issue in his patch that he might want to talk about. +But he's made national headlines local and every other headlines that comes about regarding this issue of the merger. +But I think in seconding this motion I think it's a way forward and I think it's better late than never I think what it talks about that we would not be here today Mr Chairman if this would have been agreed by what was put by the officers two and half years ago. +It's not a federated system, it actually, positively talks about moving forward as Professor states it in the economical situation the council is in. +It talks about one budget covering for the two centres and it also talks about two heads of centres which is more practicable and more rational than any other s situation that would have been if the merger decision would have stayed. +There has never been an argument put by anyone to convince myself or people who have protested against the merger, a rational argument has never been put against what people have said that the merger is a rational way forward. +I think it would have been a disaster and a recipe for disaster because practically if you know what the situation is in the Moat Centre and the Highfields youth and community centre then people would have never resisted to that change. +I'm not saying that people would have never changed their ideas but if it would have been done in the manner that it would have been done in in the first place and if people would have been told about their future lives and if people had been, would've accepted what was going on in light of all the decisions that have been taken previously regarding the merger issue. +I think these proposals not only are a way forward but also in light of what is actually happening in the area of Highfields with er the high numbers of unemployment, with the high rate of people underachieving in education I think for the last two and a half years there has been no clear guidelines or structure that has systematically brought about any results in the two centres to move forward where people have lost out by this issue being bureaucratic and a political football that's being kicked about and I think it's about time where we now have cross party consensus that we move positively forward and work towards these proposals. +I mean in so I I come here today with a petition that I presented that also talks about proposing to abolish the merger, I mean this is a move just one step away from that but I still feel in what was proposed at the last full council meeting and I would express my views to the officers that in light of what has been suggested today is actually implemented to the wording as it stands because the joint working party that had been er written up previously never did meet although if I can inform it was only the officers who actually met up and I hope that in light of all the working group and the two heads of centres covering for each other would be implicitly applied. +In light of er +Near time +all the consultation that also talks about in this paper is met with the two centres, the management committee of Highfields youth and commune centre and also the users of the Moat Centre and I think in light of everything that's gone on I think it's substantially a success to stand here and say that we have at least achieved some result and I I formally would welcome the Libs supporting this this afternoon and I'm grateful for the turn that the Libs have made and in light of er what er Mr the involvement Mr has put in. +Time time time now please. +Thank you. +Thanks Chair. +Mr do you wish the right of reply. +No it's Mr +Mr +Not really Chair . +I'm mean we've discussed it often but I I would be grateful if we could +It's Mr I'd hate to stop Mr in full cry +Okay then chairman I I would er recommend that we support the amendment moved by Mr . +Right, those in favour. + +Right erm yeah look at the congress. +Just wanna wrap this up now erm by bringing in the erm example of Greece. +Er the er er Greek revolt. +Erm just to recap on that slightly. +It started round about eighteen twenty one although actually there there'd been erm er simmering discontent in the amongst the Christians in the Balkan area for some time. +We we needn't worry too much that thought but erm the Greek revolt itself in eighteen twenty to one to round about eighteen twenty five had gone on without any European intervention. +To some extent this was due to the influence of the er of of . +Erm who was able to hold er the Russians back from intervening on the grounds that it would be er seen as intervention in a er in in in a revolt. +Erm the revolt is of course essentially a nationalist revolt. +I suppose there are liberal overtones in it but it's essentially a nationalist revolt. +After eighteen twenty five of course erm the death of Alexandria especially of Nicholas Russia is more inclined to intervene especially as the Greek rebels are being defeated because of the mention the intervention of of erm Turkey's ally erm er Egypt Egypt a a a a problem for the Turkish empire . +The ruler of Egypt Mohammed Ali intervened in the revolt on behalf of Turkey with the promise of territory in the area. +Erm and the revolt begins to er er er crumble. +Erm so Russia decides to intervene and at this point erm is especially concern of Britain. +And the upshot is that in eighteen twenty six Britain suggests in essence holding a congress to discuss the er er Greek revolt. +Erm Britain and France are very concerned about the prospect of Russian intervention. +Erm And in essence a kind of congress is held at St Petersburg. +It's not trotted out in the old history books as one of the conferences, or one of the congresses rather. +In fact it's, it's more often referred to correctly as a conference. +Erm it consisted of the ambassadors of the great, of the, of of the great powers erm er meeting together at St Petersburg. +Erm it's there's a certain irony about all this. +As we know erm Canning had to a great extent welcomed the end of the congress system. +His famous comment about things are back to as they should be every nation for herself and god for us all. +Erm but in twenty six he in a sense does a U turn. +And he's concerned to get great power co-operation to solve the Greek er er problem. +The other irony is of course that up until at the previous congresses like Verona erm Britain hadn't attended. +At this one Austria doesn't attend. +And same, well and and Prussia as well for that matter but they're not so, so important. +At this conference the great powers involved are Britain, Russia and France. +Of course the other irony as well is that the powers that meet at the conference at St Petersburg er the powers decide they will intervene in Greece. +And they're intervening of course here on the side of a revolt which is going against the grain of erm of certainly for Russia of course of er of of the attitudes of the eighteen erm er eighteen teens early eighteen twenties. +The idea was basically to produce some kind of semi-independent Greece. +Er of course as we know or we might, some of us might know from er Brit. +his. +that erm from British History that erm in eighteen er erm the Turks refused to co-operate in this. +And erm in when was it eighteen twenty seven at the Battle of Navareno the British navy sunk the Turkish fleet. +Erm thus to a great extent erm ending the erm er the prospects of Turkish success. +What what was that battle again? +Navareno. +Navar Avokea or Navareno Bay erm it's more, I think it's more technically known as Avokea See if they've got a reference to the . +Oops. +Oh no it is Nav I'm I'm sorry. +I'm confused aren't I? +It is Navareno. +Yeah erm again you needn't worry too much about the er erm about the ramifications of this Kenning died in twenty seven and Britain to some extent disentangled herself from the Greek revolt but the upshot was that in eighteen thirty Greece became an independent state. +Her independence guaranteed by Britain, Russia and France. +Okay erm I suppose we ought to mention in this context as well er Belgium. +I'll probably refer to it again later on . +Er in Belgium of course in eighteen thirty erm a nationalist revolt broke out in response really to the French revolution of that year. +Which we'll be looking at briefly in a sec. +Erm this was a direct challenge to the Vienna settlement of course. +As we know at the Vienna settlement, Belgium was put under er er er er essentially under Dutch rule. +Erm Britain and France were prepared to defend Belgian independence. +The other powers were er at odds with Britain and France ie Austria, Russia Prussia. +So again we see a split in the er in in in amongst the great powers. +What? +I just +It's Britain and France were prepared to support Belgian independence. +Erm Russia, Prussia Austria not. +And we are seeing in eighteen thirty a significant gap between on the one hand erm the western powers and on the other hand the east european or the central and eastern european powers. +In eighteen thirty of course, the east european powers were unable erm er to intervene. +Er Russia had erm a revolt in Poland to face. +Austria faced disturbances in Italy. +Prussia of course couldn't really act by herself. +But we are seeing a widening gap. +And indeed erm in the eighteen thirties we see the formation in the west of the so called quadruple alliance not to be confused with the great quadruple alliance of eighteen er thirteen. +The quadruple alliance consisted of Britain, France, Spain and Portugal which had by now got sort of liberal constitutional governments. +Well it's erm it's erm it's about, I think it's about eighteen thirty three thirty four. +Doesn't really matter. +It's the earliest, er early eighteen thirties. +And on the other hand, Austria, Russia and er Prussia it's Munchengratz isn't it. +forgetting me er me Munchen Yep. +In fact they may even have a date for you here. +Yeah eighteen thirty three Munchengratz. +It's an agreement to defend each other against the threat of revolution. +Yep. +Erm So we are seeing by er the early eighteen thirties something of a formalized split between the er er the powers of er the quadruple and then the er quintsimple erm er alliance. +I'm referring obviously to the quadruple alliance of eighteen er er fifteen. +Okay perhaps we can er er wrap a few things up on the erm on the er Vienna er settlement and the congress system itself. +What actually happened in Belgium? +Belgium became independent. +Sorry yeah. +Belgium became independent. +Erm it's ind , it's independence was recognized fully by all the major European powers by eighteen thirty nine. +It was regarded as erm it was one of Palmerston's, one of Palmerston's great triumphs wasn't it? +Isn't it the case that Palmerston when he was on his death bed had the clause to the Belgian treaty read to him to cheer him up. +Okay erm let's perhaps make a few comments then about the Vienna settlement itself. +The old er the old kind of chestnut question is was it a success or a failure? +I I I'd say with the, with the revamped exam you're not likely, you're not likely to get a question like that. +Was Vienna successful? +But you're gonna get a much wider question if it comes up on this and erm perhaps in incorporating the congress system but let's approach it from that, that perspective anyway. +I think the best way of looking at this is to kind of take an open-ended version of what the Vienna settlement is all about. +Er not just the treaty in eighteen fifteen but the whole congress system erm after eighteen fifteen onwards and into the eighteen twenties and such like. +Erm I suppose the er the classic interpretation of the er the Vienna settlements is that erm in in the nineteenth century was that it was a failure and there was a, there was a kind of er consensus beginning quite early actually. +There's a kind of consensus view that in the language of ten sixty six and all that the Vienna settlement was a bad thing. +Erm and I say this view is, is in some respects being er erm er expressed relatively early on. +Erm and you even get it associated with leading rulers or states er statesmen of the day. +For instance erm somebody like Napoleon the Third. +He emerged as president of France as Prince Louis Napoleon in eighteen forty eight and he er he erm achieves power by coup d'etat and becomes emperor in eighteen fifty two. +Napoleon the Third is someone who's er who sees it as one of his objectives to undo the Vienna settlement. +Erm and you've got other leading figures of the day. +Count Cavor prime minister of Piedmont in eighteen er fifty. +Erm and someone who's described as perhaps one of the architects of Italian unity. +He becomes the prime minister of of a relatively united Italy erm in eighteen er eighteen sixty. +Cavor is someone who's er +Right. +Cavor is someone who's hostile er to the Vienna settlement. +Let alone of course large numbers of liberal stroke nationalist erm revolutionaries within Europe in the eighteen er twenties, thirties and forties. +The various national secret societies and various nationalist movements like er Young Italy and there's even one called Young Europe which is kind of a pretty, pretty much catch-all one. +But the various nationalist societies or the revolutionary purpose. +They're all hostile to the Vienna settlement. +And that perhaps er having mentioned the nationalist erm societies this perhaps gives us a clue to it. +The the view was taken that the Vienna settlement was hostile to liberalism and nationalism. +That was the view taken that the Vienna settlement was hostile to liberalism. +It was hostile to nationalism. +And therefore it was wrong because the argument goes that liberalism and nationalism are the great triumphant er ideologies of the nineteenth century and the Vienna settlement's not only wrong, but it was historically erm in a sense doomed because it was trying to oppose the growing erm unstoppable er ideologies of er erm of er of Europe. +By the way erm it's always rather amusing when you see in the old history books the er the idea that erm that, to give an example, somebody like Metternich. +You get the old idea that Metternich ignored liberalism and nationalism. +Erm that's a very, a very misleading way of putting it. +Metternich in many ways thought of little else except liberalism and nationalism. +The Vienna settlement didn't ignore liberalism and nationalism. +It tried its best to clobber it. +It tried its best to actually er suppress it. +And don't forget erm perhaps we ought to say a word on the er on the conservative's side here. +Erm don't forget it's people like Metternich and indeed Castlereagh and the other erm er figures at the Vienna settlement. +They were looking back in eighteen fifteen at twenty odd years of war and revolution. +And if that was you know you could, I supp , you could argue that the French revolution had been built on notions of liberalism and it had encouraged nationalism in Europe. +And therefore you could associate liberalism and nationalism with war, terror erm and perhaps therefore it wasn't all that desirable. +Obviously as well in Metternich's er er, in Metternich's case nationalism would be the end of the Austrian empire. +Because the Austrian empire, the Habsburg empire was a conglomeration of large numbers of different nationalities. +Nationalism affected other great powers as well. +Erm Russia Russia in eighteen fifteen grabbed Poland. +Prussia had, still had chunks of Polish territory little bits of it. +Prussia of course more especially more especially Prussia feared a united Germany. +If you brought, if you got a united Germany then Prussia would simply be a small part of that united Germany. +So it's important to note that nationalism the prospect of nationalism was seen as undesirable by the er major European powers. +It didn't nationalism had no erm wouldn't affect France as such. +Didn't affect Britain. +Well it affected Ireland. +There was always the problem of Ireland. +I think it's a bit wrong perhaps to say it didn't affect Britain. +Perhaps it didn't affect Britain at this time. +But as we know from British history one of the understated reasons why erm there was a lot of hostility to home rule for Ireland in Britain was because of the fear of the creation of a hostile state er erm off, off Britain's shore. +Erm so that's one aspect of Vienna. +It was seen as being opposed to liberalism, as opposed to nationalism and perhaps there were, there were er, there were, there were good reasons er for that. +By the way erm are we relatively clear what's meant by liberalism and nationalism within this context? +Should I perhaps digress and say a little word erm er about this? +Perhaps I will. +It's perhaps of some interest to us that erm these to great -isms, liberalism and nationalism I think we can see them as products of the French revolution. +Or indeed products of perhaps enlightened attitudes, certainly with the case of liberalism. +In a sense, if we think of the context of say the late eighteenth early nineteenth century perhaps more, perhaps more specifically we think of the er, of the er erm early nineteenth century. +Liberalism and nationalism are seen as two sides of the same coin. +They were seen as inextricably bound up. +Erm all liberals were nationalists. +And to er, I suppose by and large, vice versa as well. +Erm as I've said the er the the two er known as the two -isms. +The two ideologies are by and large products of the revolution or in the case of liberalism perhaps of the of enlightened attitudes. +By liberalism liberalism meant a number of things. +It meant primarily constitutional government. +It meant primarily constitutional government. +Written constitutional government. +Liberalism. +Oh. +It meant by and large constitut , it meant, it meant primarily rather constitutional government. +Liberals would look to for instance the con the United States' Constitution. +They would look to the er er to the constitution of of of France in say seventeen ninety one or the more radicals amongst them would look erm the more er the more radical liberal if that's not er, if that's not a, not a contradiction in terms, don't think it is. +They would look to the constitution of eighteen, of seventeen ninety three. +Others, other in nineteenth century Europe looked to the constitutions granted in eighteen twelve for instance in Spain and in Naples. +These aren't er er er they tend to be a bit ignored in history, these. +But they're of interest. +In eighteen, in in late eighteen twelve erm with the prospect perhaps of Napoleonic rule in difficulties you see in some of Napoleon's, some of the client states of Napoleonic Europe Spain, Naples you see constitutions being granted which are are pretty democratic actually. +And th the they're looked to by er European liberals as as model constitutions. +When you get a revolt in Spain in the eighteen twenties. +What is the revolt in favour of? +The revolt is in favour of the constitution of eighteen twelve. +So they believe in constitutional governments. +Erm now obviously in the context of constitutional governments it's not, one can imagine having a constitutional form of government without, without a parliamentary system but erm it's perhaps a bit of a stretch of the imagination. +But they mean by, erm constitutional government they also er er liberals also believed in the notion of parliamentary government. +It's very much connected to late enlightenment notions that the only valid government would be representative government. +Other forms of government are in a sense illegitimate. +Absolute rule. +Monarchical rule. +Well not necessarily, I mean, unless the monarch was was was er, was part of the constitutional set up. +But representative government was the only really legitimate form of government. +Of course, there was debate amongst liberals on how much representation there would be. +Or to put it, erm erm erm more simplistically how, how many people would have the vote. +Erm we see this within the context of the reform movement in Britain after eighteen fifteen. +Where you've got reformers ranging from those who want the household suffrage er household suffrage. +A vote to all householders. +Across to those who wanted erm erm a universal male suffrage. +Erm one man one vote. +Erm European liberalism is based upon, is based upon context as well of secularism. +Or to perhaps er put it more to put it, to make it more erm obvious anti-clericalism. +This didn't necessarily mean hostility to religion as such. +But the notion of secularism, the notion of anti-clericalism meant that within the liberal states erm the er er there would be a separation of church and state. +Erm the church would have no role within the state as being say in a erm erm in other words there would be erm the catholic church in in erm in say er a state like France er should not be the established church. +There would be a separation of church and state. +And by and large the activities of church and state would be separatist. +The church would play no role in the affairs of state. +Erm Other notions erm of liberalism of course again which are perhaps pretty obvious freedom of speech and implied in that freedom of religion, freedom of expression, that kind of thing. +But in essence they're the main er er the main aspects of er of of er what was meant by liberalism in the er in in er the nineteenth century. +Erm it perhaps doesn't strike us as being very revolutionary but of course it depends from the context that you're in erm to perhaps some of the absolute rulers of er of er perhaps, this was revolutionary. +Erm What about nationalism? +Nationalism we perhaps some of the er er some of the erm concepts of nationalism appearing even before the French revolution. +You begin to see er in erm in parts of Europe in the er later eighteenth century a growing emphasis upon er er upon language, literature of of certain areas. +I'm thinking of Italy here primarily. +Erm as it develops under the impact of the French revolution and Napoleonic rule and then later what nationalism came to be seen as it's the basically the idea that erm that people of a common culture history and language should occupy perhaps that's the wrong word. +Er should er should have a separate state. +Should not be ruled by a foreign power. +So a people with a common culture, history, language should live in a separately defined state. +And certainly should not live under the rule of a foreign er power. +And our classic examples of course there erm of of of this situation in in post eighteen fifteen Europe are Germany, Italy Poland . +Now I've I've suggested that erm in the early nineteenth century, liberalism and nationalism are very much bound up. +Er all, all nationalists in a sense are liberals, or liberals are nationalists. +One aspect of this of course, one reason er er behind this is is the French revolution. +Let's not forget that erm under Napoleonic rule you do see the creation of a so-called king of Italy. +It's northern Italy. +Erm Napoleon happens to be it's king and and it is very much a client of France. +We see the creation of of of the confederation of the Rhine. +A a kind of erm united Germany. +Erm within, in these states as well you,th the the nationalism of them, although it's in the French direction. +It's associated as well with the ideology of Napoleonic France. +Erm which does imply an attack on the old feudal regimes er er er previously existing. +Erm so after eighteen fifteen there is this link between liberalism and nationalism. +I don't wanna go much er er further ahead on this for the moment. +We do tend to see liberalism and nationalism parting company. +Especially after eighteen forty eight. +And as ag I will, I'll be returning to this obviously in consideration of Italy and Germany, but it is perhaps worth making this point now. +You do see liberalism and nationalism parting company. +Erm and you do get this growing awareness that not all of that while all liberals might be nationalists. +All right thinking liberals in Europe from Gladstone in England you know. +All right thinking liberals support nationalist aspirations. +Gladstone a great advocate of Italian unity for instance. +Gladstone an advocate of er of of Balkan nationalism. +He wanted Turkey out of the Balkan er er out of south eastern Europe. +So all good European liberals are nationalists. +It starts to become apparent, very very clear that not all nationalists are good liberals. +In fact far from it. +Erm if the choice is between securing er your er securing your own state. +Securing the nationalist goal and ignoring the liberal goal, many nationalists will go for the nationalist goal. +If the price of bringing about your united state is the dumping of liberals, then so be it. +In that sense nationalism of course er it perhaps becomes a more dynamic and problematic ideology in nineteenth century Europe. +So I I've digressed er from er considering what erm erm er what this has got to do with the er erm congress of Vienna but I think it's er hopefully er er a worthwhile erm er digression. +Erm let me turn er briefly to the those who have something good to say about the Vienna settlement. +It's had it's supporters er one is always reminded that one of it's key supporters, the former American er er secretary of state and and at the moment, globe-trotting world expert er Henry Kissinger. +Kissinger erm who began life as a er er as professor of history. +His first major work was a defence of the Vienna settlement. +Erm and it it it, it has been defended on a number of grounds. +It's been argued by it's supporters that it ushered in an era of peace. +Erm At it's most extreme interpretation there's an argument that erm, that the Vienna settlement was a factor in maintaining peace in Europe between eighteen fifteen and nineteen fourteen. +Because it's extreme supporters suggest that that it wasn't until nineteen fourteen that a war broke out involving all the great European powers. +Erm one would argue that's er that's er, that's an extreme erm er view. +Erm there are wars in Europe after eighteen fifteen. +And some people might argue the Vienna settlement was a factor in bringing about some of these wars. +So it's again, unfortunately it's it comes down in one of these erm pays your money takes your choice erm er arguments. +But it is worth making the point that for instance if we take a look after eighteen fifteen of, at the wars. +There's war between Russia and Turkey in er eighteen er thirty when Russia militarily intervenes in the Turkish revolt. +Of course there's the war war between Russia and Turkey as well in the in in in the eighteen seventies. +But for the moment I'm just looking perhaps nearer to the Vienna settlement itself. +Erm there's war between er you get the Crimean war between Russia on the one hand and Great Britain and France on the other. +And it's always worth remembering about the Crimean erm episode that Austria in essence intervenes on the side er er intervenes not so much on the side of Britain and France but against Russia. +Austria played a decisive though non-military role in er in in the Vienna, in in, in the er in the Crimean war. +Erm and then we have the so- called nationalist er wars. +For instance eighteen sixty four between Denmark and Prussia and Austria. +Technically Prussia and Austria here representing the German confederation. +It's a war concerning the vexed and famous Schleswig-Holstein dispute of course which I'm sure we're all familiar with. +The erm eighteen sixty six war between Prussia and Austria. +These are, this is the war which essentially brings about German er unity under Prussian erm erm control. +Prussia is the victor of course of this war. +shock win for Prussia. +Shock win for Prussia! +What a kind of er foo sport's page headline isn't it, yeah? +. If what you're suggesting is there was an expectation that Prussia might not win the war. +Yeah. +And given the fact don't forget, it's always worth remembering this and I've I've made, I'll be making the point later on. +Most of the German states supported Prussia in the Austrian Prussian war. +Including the states. +Supported Austria sorry. +Supported Austria. +Not supported Prussia. +I think . +Now of course there are the wars for Italian erm er unification. +Eighteen fifty nine. +A war between Au between Austria on the one hand and France and technically Piedmont on the other. +Although the Piedmontese army didn't arrive until the battles were over . +There was war between on the one hand Austria and the other hand France and Piedmont. +Erm and then of course in a sense almost bringing these things together the, the major and perhaps most influential of these er wars. +The war between France what is normally referred to as the Franco-Prussian war. +I suppose to be technical it ought to be the er it ought to be referred to as the Franco- German war. +It ought to be a war between France and a united Germany. +But as it is, it is primarily Prussia that's er involved. +The war between France and Prussia. +Eighteen seventy to seventy one. +The argument is, is that okay these are, that certainly erm we see a number of wars in er nineteenth century Europe. +But the argument is well they're not very big wars are they? +They're they're short er wars. +They range I mean er the the er the er Prussian Austro-Prussian war of eighteen sixty six is is referred to as what the six weeks war and and erm the five, five weeks of that or or or whatever were were involved in peace negotiations. +The war itself was just three days. +Erm there was only one battle in it you know but That erm that the war between France and erm and and and Austria was fought in June erm essentially in June of er of eighteen er fifty nine. +They are short wars, the argument is. +The same with the Dan Danish Austro. +Danish war the wars in Denmark and Austria and Prussia one might imagine a rather short- lived er war. +How long did it take ? +Well not very long. +I suppose it's erm in in that sense erm er I I I I can see what you're, this, I don't think that's a factor in in in the, in the erm in in the fact that these wars are short. +I think these wars are short because they're fought for limited objectives. +They don't tend to escalate. +Because the, because only one or two of the powers are involved in them. +Or three perhaps in in in in the Crimea. +Erm Nevertheless, to some extent the wars reflect the breakdown of the Vienna settlement. +So it's a kind of a strange argument to suggest on the one hand the Vienna settlement was a factor in in preventing wars between all the great , er major war involving all the great powers. +Erm when at the same time the Vienna settlement appears to be crumbling like after er erm after eighteen thirty or something. +Of course erm it's perhaps, perhaps it's looking slightly to the er historical future it it's er it it was bad news in one sense because erm there came to be a view taken in Europe that wars between the great powers would be short, sharp wars. +And hence the feeling in nineteen fourteen when the first world war broke out that it would er all be over by Christmas. +Because it, cos people were you know erm as is often said generally of of a of a general staffs of armies. +They're always fighting the previous war. +There was this view that the first world war would be rather like a re-run of some of these wars at the end of the nineteenth century. +Erm which didn't turn out to be the case. +Erm so I would say, I'll just wrap this up erm on on erm on on on this point the er by making by introducing the fact that some, some historians have argued that these wars were short. +Okay they had limited objectives. +They were correcting the Vienna settlement. +That's in a way how you can perhaps square the circle. +You can argue these wars were corrective. +Erm And the other factor that that's introduced as well is that the powers got into the habit of meeting in congresses. +And you do see erm in the nineteenth century erm the powers still meeting together. +For instance at the end of the Crimean war in eighteen fifty six the peace treaty that's er er that's held is actually a congress. +All the powers attended the eighteen fifty six treaty of Paris. +It's not just a a peace treaty signed by it's not just, er it's not just a direct signing of a peace treaty between say France Britain, Russia. +It turns into a congress. +The congress of Berlin eighteen seventy eight. +When it appears that there might be a major outbreak in erm in in in in south eastern Europe. +The powers do perhaps get into the habit of erm of erm of meeting together. +Okay anyway, we'll er leave it at that then for the moment. + +Chairman appointed to E I P and to the North Yorkshire number three. +Can I say that the purpose of the E I P is to examine the various issues that have been id identified for discussion. +And the panel's role is to report on those issues. +Er we are not required or intending to look at objections which have been submitted on other aspects of the structure plan. +We are simply concerned with those issues which we will be discussing over the next erm eight days or so. +The er other aspect I think erm for the purpose of those who were not at the er pre meeting, is to introduce the other panel member, and that Miss Roz who is a senior inspector, with the planning inspectorate on my right. +On my left is the panel secretary Mrs Clare . +And of course you will already be aware of the er program office which is outside just off the corridor. +Now can I get some of the mechanics out of the way first of all before we before I ask North Yorkshire to make a start with their presentation? +Firstly, I presume that those who want lunch, sandwiches here have already er taken care of their order. +I would also like to add that the small meeting room which is off the corridor, opposite the program office, is ava available for you to er relax during the lunch break, and eat your sandwiches in there, rather than bring them into the hall. +The other thing I would like to make sure and this applies also to the members of the public as well as those people who are participating in the discussion, could you please make sure that you have registered for the day. +Er you can do that during the coffee break if you haven't already done so. +now some of you will also have seen a form being circulated, asking you to agree that the recordings that are being made of the discussions, can be used as part of a research project. +Certainly I was asked about this er well before the er E I P er and we agreed that there w Well certainly I agreed that I could see nothing wrong with that since it is a cl closed research project, and nothing will be divulged at all er publicly. +Apart from which of course, that everything we say is being held in public session in any event. +The recordings are available for you if you wish or will be available for you if you wish to er improve your memory on what has been said during the discussion periods. +I must add that we will not be producing daily summaries, er I think it's a task which is a fairly daunting on and quite frankly, er they will not be produced in the sense At the end That they would not be available at the end of each day. +Erm as I say, the recordings will be available if you wish to refresh your memory. +They will be held during the course of the E I P here, otherwise they will be help by the county council. +Now I was about to make a comment that er well most of you know who who you are and where you're sitting, er those that have already done that have turned their name tags round so we can see. +Er one or two others, I would welcome that. +We can identify you more readily that way. +In terms of progressing or taking part in the discussion, can I suggest that if you want to come in on a particular item, you put your name board up like that, so that we can readily observe it er and equally, our friend who is looking after the microphones can make sure that the vol the volume of your microphone is turned up at the appropriate time. +I don't think you wish us to tamper with the microphones at all do you? +No, fine. +Now if I can move on to today's session, we are going to concer concerned ourself obviously with housing land applications and primarily with matter one A. +But before before I ask North Yorkshire to introduce the matter, can I put H B F on notice that I would like them to follow on from North Yorkshire, when they have made their contribution. +I would also like to say that er whilst we are going to talk about the housing allocations in the sort of strategic sense, across the county first of all, there are as you will remember er the matters of some disagreements, differences of opinion on demographic issues. +I raised this at the pre-meeting and asked that the various participants should have a look at those issues where they had areas of disagreement to see whether or not er they could reconcile those. +And I I would like that to be touched on as well. +Er by North Yorkshire. +I think s the differences in some cases ar are so large that it's inescapable er that we have a discussion on. +The other thing, and this is a case of where the panel bites back as it were. +We have laid on the table, two tables, P S O one and P S O two. +Erm and what we have done in compiling these tables and this has been done by the panel secretary, is to take from the various submissions of the participants, the various housing figures, the the various projections of likely need, of the housing requirement and the effective summary really is in P S O one, but when you look at P S O two er there's a little more detailed work gone into that. +Now could I ask, if there are any erm matters on there where you have found and error and it's an error of fact, can I just stress that at this stage? +Erm could you let the panel secretary know er about that this mo sometime this morning, but certainly er in time for our start of the afternoon session. +But we felt the tables themselves, could provide a useful background er and in having had them compiled, they point up some rather interesting issues, which we would return to eventually. +Now if I can pass on and ask Mr from North Yorkshire, who first of all is going to give you an introduction which in effect which effectively will set the context of alteration number three. +And then I presume Mr you'll go on to deal with matter A one A. +Yes that's correct Mr , er it will be brief. +Well ladies and gentlemen, at the beginning of this examination in public, it would probably be helpful to all present and participating, if the county council explained why this alteration is necessary, and the relationship of its content to regional and national guidance. +Well now in case anyone present is uncertain, erm of the geography of the county, there is a plan displayed er on the board er at the back of the room which w should help er in that circumstance. +The county is the largest by area in England, it borders two conurbations to the North and South, it's unique environmentally, both in its natural and built form. +having two national parks, two and half areas of outstanding natural beauty, a heritage coast and a wealth of historic towns er and villages. +The county council believes that North Yorkshire, the character of it, er is a national asset, but there is a view that because the county is large and relatively sparsely populated, there should be almost what appears to be an open door policy for development. +We for our part are unaware of any statement of national policy that requires sparsely populated counties to be earmarked for development. +Well now, the starting position today is that the North Yorkshire County Structure Plan was approved by the Secretary of State in November nineteen eighty. +Together with subsequent alterations in January nineteen eighty seven and August nineteen eighty nine. +I think it's fair to say that the Secretary of State has accepted that the special character of North Yorkshire, require a balance to be struck between environmental protection and development in the county. +And we consider that this approach enjoys widespread support in North Yorkshire. +Now district councils and National Park committees have approach in pursuit of their own plan making activities and although statutory local planning coverage in the county is still incomplete, the planning process at both county and district level, generally aims to meet the Secretary of State's wishes for North Yorkshire. +As during the examination in public into the first alteration, this E I P will demonstrate again the wide measure of agreement between county and district councils. +And we for our part think that this counts for a lot. +As to the reasons why this alteration is necessary, the county council thinks there are three reasons, The first is to reflect the wish of government that the development planning system er is up to date, second and more practically, to provide a context for district wide development plan, and third, the urgent need to resolve the future strategic planning direction of greater York. +As far as up to date development plans is concerned, this is supported by all sections of the community and need not be dwelt upon. +An appropriate conte for context for district wide plans is necessary because the approved structure plan only extends to nineteen ninety six. +Quite clearly the time horizon needs to be extended to allow structure plan numeric policies to provide clear guidance, not least in respect of a supply of land for housing in the county. +District councils are presently making good progress on the development plans and appro and an approved alteration is clearly essential for that process. +Well now the third factor, Greater York, has probably been the single most important planning issue for the county council and the Greater York districts over the past ten years. +The ingredients I think we well know. +A greenbelt agreed in principle by the Secretary of State but yet to be defined statutorily, a general absence of consensus on where future development in Greater York should be located, and increasing intervention by the Secretary of State on planning applications in Greater York. +The county council and the five Greater York district councils began to address the issue in nineteen eighty eight and have spent five years in moving toward this examination in public. +That might seem like a long time, but the issues have clearly been complex, and have been progressed as quickly as possible not least through vigourous prodding by the D O E, keen to see approval of a long term development strategy for Greater York and more importantly, a statutory definition of the York gre greenbelt. +Well we think that the D O E would probably be quite pleased with the position that we reached today. +During the period since nineteen eighty eight, the Greater York authorities have agreed a long term development strategy involving a new settlement contribution. +This enabled progress on a York greenbelt local plan which in April nineteen ninety three completed a seven month public enquiry. +The county council further accepted that an alteration to the approved structure plan was necessary to legitimize the strategy as the approved structure plan made no provision for it. +That has also been progressed as concurrently as possible with the greenbelt local plan. +So here we are today, almost at the end of a very long process, having experienced a wide ranging debate about the future of Greater York and numerous consultation exercises. +The E I P today is probably one of the last pieces in the jigsaw. +The completion of which will at long last resolve strategic planning issues in Greater York. +Well of course this process pr could just as easily have been progressed through a full scale review of the structure plan rather than an alteration. +As far as a full scale review of the structure plan is concerned, there is no doubt in the county council's mind, that such a full scale review would have significantly extended the process when all the players wish to see rapid progress, particularly to deal with the problems of Greater York. +In nineteen ninety, the county council did consider the merits of a full scale review as against an alteration. +It accepted that while there were arguments for a full scale review, the priority had to progress on an alteration which as quickly as possible, established the principle of a Greater York new settlement and progress on the greenbelt local plan. +This approach was supported by the regional office of the Department of the environment. +It is an alteration therefore that is t to be debated at this E I P and its coverage is relatively straightforward, though its content controversial. +Policy H one provides the numeric provision for dwellings in the county after two thousand and six. +Policy H two is a new policy which makes provision for a new settlement to help meet the development needs of the Greater York area. +Policies I five and I twelve provide for land for employment in the period up to two thousand and six, while in the T policies, the opportunity is taken to update road schemes in the county. +Finally, with the support of our district council, the dis the county council seeks to correct a serious omission of strategic planning policies for North Yorkshire, the inclusion of policy E two of a policy to control development in the countryside. +All the policies have been the subject of consultation, but in the case of policy H two, we've experienced almost five years of continued discussion and debate first of all through the Greater York study and then through this alteration. +The county council believes that policy H two is essential for the future of the Greater York area. +The policy even has the distinction of attracting from the regional office of the Department of the Environment, in the paper to be considered at this E I P, a phrase of mild support. +All these efforts do need of course to be assessed against their compliance or otherwise with national and regional guidance. +The former in large part embodied in P P G, the latter in regional planning guidance for York and Humberside, yet to be issued by the Secretary of State. +As far as the former is concerned, planning policy guidance, we will have different views. +Certainly this alteration will ensure the strategic policy in North Yorkshire is up to date. +And the alteration will address issues clearly appropria appropriate to structure plans. +The the policies will be much debated, with quotes from various P P Gs, probably selective, being used by both the county council and objectors to justify their position. +In any event, P P Gs are carefully drafted to ensure that few options are closed off. +The county council does feel comfortable about the compliance of its alteration with national planning guidance. +As far as regional planning guidance is concerned, there is none. +It's quite clear, the needs of sensible planning require progress on development plans. +nowhere has this been more evident than in Greater York. +While P P G twelve provides for a cascade of planning policy, I suggest that only a purist would delay a resolution of the needs of Greater York, through the development plan process, in order to await regional planning guidance. +In any event, the draft regional advice which has recently been the subject of consultation, does not conflict with this alteration, though Leeds and Bradford have reservations on the level of housing provision in North Yorkshire. +We think the Secretary of State's present wish for ordered planning will benefit from the discussions at this E I P. +There are I suspect, few organizations represented around this table, public or private, that would wish a delay in decision. +Finally panel, the county council considers that the issues raised in this alteration require early decision and not in two or three years time. +It is the county council's responsibility to bring forward proposals to enable progress to be made. +The county council has taken those decisions and we think they ought to be debated vigorously and following that discussion, the panel will come to its conclusion. +The county council therefore commends this alteration to the panel. +That's all I would like to say . +You don't wish to pursue in slightly more detail in terms of your introduction,th the issue one A which is the is the housing provision reasonable ? +Ye Yes indeed I do. +I was taking a step at a time and +Yeah well I'm quite happy. +Okay. +Can I can I just say before you start +Mhm. +Er I should have reminded everybody at the beginning, when you wish when you start to speak, would you please introduce yourself, give your name and who you represent. +So we can make absolutely certain on the recording. +That's each time. +Sorry Mr . +Before we start chairman, I wonder whether we can make sure that Peter , North Yorkshire County Council, that all round the table have got the relevant North Yorkshire paperwork. +And I think the documents that we have put in are N Y one,posi various positions er statements, Paper N Y two, described as population household economic activity rate projections, assumptions and methodology. +N Y three is a county council commentary on the regional census study, funded by the local authorities and the D O E. +N Y four is a paper entitled Housing Growth Provision. +And then we miss a number erm er and move to N Y eleven which is a paper which we have put in which attempts to look at the differences between certainly between the N Y C C projections and the H B F projections. +And that in fact is headed by erm a summary table erm which attempts to set down on p one piece of paper, where the differences erm erm lie. +And I wonder erm we specifically er identified erm the wish to to to address that particular issue. +Erm and what I would like to do, that paper was written by Mr , erm our research officer and perhaps after I've made one or two general remarks, he could give you the flavour erm of of of the difference as we as we see, if that would be acceptable to you? +That that that's quite acceptable. +So first So if I Peter , North Yorkshire. +If I continue then with some introductory remarks erm on policy H one a and one A, perhaps that would set the scene er for the discussion, then Mr will very briefly erm look at the differences as he sees them between the two sets erm of projections. +Well policy H one addresses the number of dwellings to be provided in the county and the districts and and in in Greater York. +And quite clearly there's a disagreement on the number of dwellings that the county council proposes. +The this happened before, it happened in nineteen eighty seven erm on the first alteration when review er when they were a w wide range er of suggestions er made as to the appropriate level of provision. +And to an extent, we ran through this same debate erm at the greenbelt local plan enquiry for two days during September er nineteen ninety two. +It seems to be a relatively simple debate, there is either too much development in the views of some participants, erm or there is er too little. +Others suggest that the county council er is about right. +The county council would appear to be somewhere in the middle, based on the range of views that have been submitted to this E I P. +At the top of the range we have the House Builders Federation with and excess of fif fifty thousand dwellings. +At the bottom, we have J C with a figure in excess of thirty one thousand dwellings. +The county council appear to be somewhere in the middle, er at around forty one thousand er two hundred dwellings. +I think I need to say on that, that that should not be taken as the county council sitting on the fence between two opposing er extremes. +The county council thinks that its proposed provision is the right approach and it's a balanced approach in line erm with Secretary of State's previously e stated wishes. +The approach of the county council is based on certain principles, first of all it reflects the decision of the Secretary of State on the originally approved structure plan and particularly on the first alteration to the structure plans er in nineteen er eighty seven. +And we've summarized in N Y four, paragraph twenty one to twenty seven, the main issues erm as we see them er there. +And the conclusions appear to be that migration into the county needs to be modified, and secondly, that government policy was then and still is to pursue policies leading to the regeneration of urban areas e around North Yorkshire particularly West Yorkshire er and Cleveland. +In Cleveland to the North, we have a deprived area er by any standard which is making valiant efforts to make provisions to retain er its own population as part of regenerating county Cleveland. +In West Yorkshire to the South we have similar problems of inner city decline and there as we understand it the authorities wish to cater for their housing needs. +The county council accepts the problems and is keen to do all it can to support those authorities er to North and South. +But the county council does accept that trends for migration into the county are there and the county council cannot turn off the top to turn off the tap to reclu to preclude any further migration into the county. +As a result, the county council accepts the need for a substantial element of development, which is the response to inward migration in the county. +And around about sixty percent of the overall provision as we calculate it is to accommodate migration led development in North Yorkshire. +As far as the debate with Leeds and Bradford is concerned, there are three districts adjacent to West Yorkshire, Selby, Harrogate and Craven. +And the difference between us and the West Yorkshire authorities, appears to be eighteen hundred dwellings. +That doesn't appear to be much erm in terms of quantity in our estimation in terms of the level of provision that Leeds and Bradford er are providing, but it would create a major problem er in North Yorkshire. +At the other extreme, there are arguments for reduction in the at the other end of the spectrum there are arguments for reduction in the level er of housing provision proposed er in North Yorkshire. +The county council does not accept that there should be any further reduction in the amount of housing that is proposed to be =commodat accommodated in the county. +The county council quite clearly accepts its regional responsibilities to accommodate a significant degree er of migration led er development. +We believe to further reduce erm erm the level of migration led development in North Yorkshire er would not be in the best interest of the region as a whole and more importantly, would not be in accord with the general provisions o of the structure plan to accommodate a a significant level er of development. +As we see it therefore, the county council is not turning the tap off in respect of migration led development, and it is not being e too generous. +We believe that the balanced approach e of the county council e is right, it reflects the views of the Secretary of State er in nineteen eighty seven, and we think it's the appropriate way for North Yorkshire to develop, bearing in mind the clear environmental constraints er within North Yorkshire. +Well chairman that gives a flavour of the documentation the various documentation that we put in. +You did ask erm for us to try and help this examination by giving some indication of the differences between shall we say, the two sides of the debate. +Er we put in N Y eleven which is our attempt er to identify first in a summary page, er and then in a more voluminous paper, with appendices, where the differences lie and the reasons that er that we pursue one course as opposed to another. +Erm this has been prepared by Mr erm and perhaps it would be helpful if he gave you the flavour of it. +Stuart , North Yorkshire. +Well sir er we have as Mr has said, in N Y eleven, the commentary er of our o opinions on the situation put forward by the House Builders Federation. +Whereas our own er reasoned commentary is in N Y two. +Er N Y two paragraph nine er gives us the background to our approach in population projections. +We have er framed them to take account of the most recent information available, subject to limitations that staff time limits causes. +We have sir +Excuse me Mr . +Can you all hear? +It it shouldn't be necessary either to adjust the microphones, to switch them on or to move them actually. +Alright carry on. +Wherever possible sir, we have tested the validity of the individual assumptions against alternative sources of data. +Er we have looked to supplement national e information by our local knowledge specifically I might instance one er where we have made a survey of the institutions which is one source of er possible difference between er people looking at the situation locally and those from further afield. +We have erred I think in several instances to try and give a margin of flexibility er I think if we'd really tried hard to follow a policy of restraint within the assumptions of this model, we could have produced even lower figures than we have. +I think we've tried to err being being reasonable. +So that was the general approach. +Er the particular methodology we've used is a population projection model, produced by the Institute. +The Housing and Population model. +Er this is quite commonly accepted as er in use in many places and I think my our colleagues on the other side of the table have been using the same basic modelling methodology. +It starts by taking the present population a as the population of the base year, and proceeds to age the population, er adding births and subtracting deaths to get a population in the projection years. +Er it begins by subtracting the institutional population from the total population in order to get the private household population. +Once the population levels are calculated in the model, the population is converted in to households using marital status and rates. +And once the households are calculated, the final process is to convert the households into dwellings. +And to summarize the methodology that we've used, we've set out our in the single sheet in the front of N Y eleven, various assumption areas that constitute the use of the model and our choice of the appropriate assumption for each of these areas. +So that for instance, er starting with a base population, we've used the Registrar General's nineteen ninety one provisional estimates. +Er this was because er at the time the est that the calculations were made and reported to the committee, these were the most recently available. +Er other have been able to use more recently er released information,n er namely the Registrar General's nineteen ninety one final revised estimates. +As you will see from the sheet,small difference in the total population. +Had the county council been able to use the final figures, the dwelling requirements at the end of the projection period would have been somewhat lower than the figure that we have produced. +The conversion of the rate of population to private household population has been accepted that er we use as everybody has used, the county council's estimate of the institutional population. +So this does not appear as a technical difference. +Sorry would you re would you repeat that. +You say there is no difference of opinion on that one now. +On on the level of the institutional +Yeah. +population. +There is a difference of opinion in the effect on the number of households produced by the way that the military +Yeah. +population in married quarters is treated. +Yes I appreciate that. +Yes. +But you haven't highlighted that +I haven't highlighted that as an area of difference . +N n no no. +Cou co could I ask you and try to short circuit actually the presentation if you if you if you don't mind, to actually concentrate on those issue items where there are these significant differences which which you which you mentioned. +Well the largest difference er from the sheet is in the death statistics. +And er we will maintain that we've used the appropriate statistics from the office of population censuses and surveys and the Registrar General's er and erm our colleagues have made an error is our opinion on er the er death statistics that they've used in their calculations of the model in our opinion. +In that they have not taken the correct figures. +I can't explain the reasons why . +Our our figures we maintain are the correct ones. +Yeah I mean I I would assume that there must be agreed death rates which everybody would accept as as as being applicable in projecting population . +We would have said we would have thought that too sir but er it appears that er +Well I I think I'll wait for H B F to come back on that one. +But yo the figure the the figure which you mentioned Yeah . +Can can I just add sir o one point I I in my in my preamble I said that we were sometimes able from a local point of view to take into account information locally that perhaps you wouldn't have got from further afield. +Er within the model, there is the provision to er not take the date which is issued with the model, but to allow for local correction factors and it er maybe that we've got the locally correct death statistics in and our colleagues haven't got the local corrections. +Well we'll we'll we'll come back to that one later one but if you just carry on talking through the various er items where there is these there are these significant differences. +Well that is the er most significant difference sir. +Er a difference has er appeared in concealed households, at three thousand . +The county council maintains that er the project methodology takes account of all classes of households er within the methodology itself. +And so there does not need to be a separate provision made for numbers of concealed households. +Er our understanding is that er our colleagues the other side of the table wish to reduce the number of consumer households from the level it was at the nineteen ninety one census, which is the figure here, three one seven to zero. +Eliminating the numbers of concealed households, and therefore the number of dwellings to be provided to cater for that. +Er and we feel that that would be er unrealistic but within the modelling context, we don't think that it needs to be separately taken into account. +There are households concealed households at the beginning of the period in our projections, there are households at the end of the period which are also concealed. +This we feel matches the real world situation, where er the poor being always with us, there will always be people who while wishing to have accommodation . +So that is an area of er significant difference. +The next er most important er in terms of of erm numbers is er migration levels. +H here we we have two categories of of areas of difference. +There is the technical basis on the one hand, and there is a policy er er area. +I think then there's a catchphrase, environmental discounts. +And I think these phrases appear in the text. +As far as the technical points are concerned er there is the question, which source of data should be used to quantify migration. +And over how long a period should the migration be taken. +The county council has used the National Health Service's central record of patient re-registrations as its principle source of for migration data and has chosen an eight year period to measure the trend. +Er our colleagues I think have chosen a different period trend. +I think it's a ten year period they've taken and th the er source is as much the a sort of a residual figure that comes from the Registrar General's mid year estimates,nineteen ninety one. +As against the nineteen eighty one estimates. +Deducting actual change and ending up with . +We maintain that this balance not only includes migration but includes other adjustments. +So the figures for migration are not necessarily purely migration figures and we are er we don't dispute the length of the trend to take the ten years. +Ten years as it happens is not a lot different to eight years. +The choice of the time period for migration is very important. +if we had taken the most recent trend, it would have been over the last three years. +This is shown er in the appendix to N Y two. +Appendix five. +Which is a table showing annual average migration figures for the years nineteen eighty five to nineteen ninety two. +Appendix five of N Y two. +There you'll see there is an eight year trend, the mean of which is just under five thousand. +From which we make a deduction and I'll come back to that deduction in a moment if I may sir. +If one took just the last three years, the annual average migration figure would be a little under three thousand three hundred. +Had we used this three thousand three hundred figure as the annual migration, then the housing requirement figures come out of the projection rather then two thousand and six, would have been some ten thousand fewer. +So the choice of the length of the trend is er very important. +The source is important and er how you deal with the source. +Er I mentioned that we have made an allowance for students in this migration. +Er this is not to say, I must emphasize that we have discounted students in this migration assessment. +What we have done is to discount excess students. +Er there is a technical report that has examined this sort of information erm for the year nineteen eighty one nineteen eighty eighty one, specifically for this county. +Er the research found that there were three hundred or so students who registered with the health service but didn't re-register or didn't leave. +So that that was a a a fact that er +Yeah. +Does this make a significant difference to the the hous household requirement ? +Yes One o one of the elements that goes towards the four thousand four hundred +Yeah. +difference in migration. +Er I don't think I couldn't at this moment in time, give you the components +No. +of of which of these four thousand four hundred is d due to the time period which is due to the source which is due to the er student er excess student discount. +So that is a significant er difference sir between e our calibrations of the model and others. +Yeah. +other differences are smaller in scale as you will see, there is a difference in er vacant dwellings,the county council er takes the view that er +Yes I I I Yeah sorry to interrupt, I mean I follow the arguments you've used within the document but I the figure which the H H B F have attributed to vacant dwellings for example is just under two thousand five hundred. +Or is this th is this an adjusted figure now? +Having had the discussion between the two parties. +Is it six hundred ? +Er we have had er recent correspondence with the H B F and er my e colleague Mrs Long can give you the the detail of that. +We would we would er revise the difference figure on the basis of that conversation. +So d d d the the six thousand the six hundred does not really apply any more . +Well No well I I'll I'll come back to that issue with with H B F +but +Er but but it it is not simple as in any of these matters er in that the change in the vacant dwellings difference here also has a consequential figure for dwellings different at the end. +Because of what the er effect is in the calculations and again we we could go into that in some detail if wanted to. +No I'm I'm trying to avoid too much detail if I can. +What I'm trying to to establish in in a fairly simplified form actually, are the areas of difference and whether some of those are still capable of being reconciled, because of the way in which you a you know the the the different parties may have made different approaches but in fact you might come to an agreement about that. +But there are other ar areas where in fact you may simply agree to disagree. +For various reasons. +Mm. +Well I think having had a meeting with the er house builders er representatives earlier on, this table of differences now represents the differences that there are still remaining. +Yeah right. +Before the H B F respond and I appreciate they want to respond to what Mr said. +Can I say in relation to what Mr has said +Mr . +. +Sorry I'm er +Mr has er Our aim must be to identify what really matters. +Technical experts will always disagree, erm there was a time when I too would claim to be one of them. +But I'm not here to play that role. +We must please be clear about those factors which actually matter, always bearing in mind that it is for the county council in the first instance and perhaps for the panel in the second instance, to take a decision about the suppression of past migration trends. +In other words not to provide for a continuing level of migration as it has been in the past. +In that context, it seems to me that some of the differences between the technical experts pale into insignificance and therefore do net deserve our spending any great time upon them. +There are other matters however, which seem to me to be much more significant in statistical terms and in relation to the total level of provision +Mm. +which the county propose. +Can we please concentrate on those that are truly significant? +Mr I hope that hasn't cleared anything of what you wanted to say. +Thank you. +Right, thank you very much. +Er Roy , House Builders Federation. +I'll try my best to to respond to most of what we've already heard this morning. +Erm, the basic stance of the er er of the federation is that we erm make use of the latest information. +We regard that as being consistent with government policy, as set out in P P G twelve. +But it is in our view, government policy to provide for development needs. +Consistent within a framework of regional guidance. +We have as Mr said already this morning, we have no regional guidance. +Erm and his claim that in fact the regional draft regional guidance er that has emerged is consistent with this alteration, is not really surprising since the same parties drew up the same document. +. So our purpose here and I would echo er what Miss has just said, is essentially to take a view about migration. +That is the essential component erm which er will determine e effectively the strategic policy which will apply to this county. +It's interesting that despite all that's been said about migration and I'll come back to it, but we actually start, the county and ourselves, from the same point, more or less, within about four four dwelling I think. +Erm and but it's after that that we we we differ a bit. +However as far as the basic strategy is concerned of this particular alteration, it includes for the first time, conversions. +And that is a fundamental change to the previous strategy. +And it amounts to, in effect a twelve point five percent decrease in housing provision. +At a time when household formation rates suggest we should be going in the opposite direction, simply to stand still. +This is a fundamental change of strategy without doubt. +I don't want to hold up this alteration, and I, like Mr , don't want to wait three years for a decision. +But I would say to you that such a fundamental change of strategy, would normally have its proper place in a replacement plan, rather than an alteration. +So how do some of our differences come about. +We have a number of technical differences which are essentially differences about the composition of the population and its natural change. +And we would say that that difference amounts to sixteen hundred dwellings. +We have a base dwelling difference, although in view of your remarks, that may well pale into insignificance. +But nevertheless, it is a matter of fact that there is a difference of seven hundred and fifty dwellings, in the base dwellings that we've used. +We do have a difference in vacancies. +Er whereas the County Council have sought to re to er keep vacancies constant, we have said that it is reasonable to seek to plan to keep second homes etcetera as a constant number but what I would term normal vacancies, can be reasonably be expected to go up to maintain the same proportion. +That does I think form a significant element because it makes a difference of nearly two and a half thousand dwellings. +Perhaps I could intervene and try to establish a view on vacancies, so at least we can get one element of out +Mm. +of the debate out of the way. +And perhaps Miss and D O E may have a view to contribute too. +But if I can put my thinking erm on the floor first, it seems to me that vacant Normal vacancies as Mr has described them, are a function of people moving from one house to another. +And it seems to me there is no reason to suppose that because there are more houses, the propensity to move from one house to another declines. +Perhaps before gentleman of the County Council whose name I still can't see +comes in, Miss may wish to say something. +I think in this day and age, there is probably a greater propensity to move and consequently there may well be an increased erm amount of vacancies occurring and that was why in our statement, we actually increased the number of vacancies, but I think that is a function of the number of houses on offer at the time. +Mm. +H how in that context, does the County Council defend its position Mr You're not Mrs , you're Mr Thank you. +Mr will +Yes Malcolm , County Council. +I think our concern is that the vacancy rate erm in the census indicates that some seven point one percent of the the properties in the county are vacant at er at that time. +We are very concerned that in in making provision for housing through to the year two thousand and six, we should not be making provision for that level of vacancy rate, which seems to us to be artificially high when compared with the the national figures. +And indeed we hear from the D O E that they have a figure in their paper of something like five and a half percent. +The figure that we have come up with in fact is derived by holding constant the numbers rather than the rate of vacant dwellings through to the year two thousand and six, which implies that by the year two thousand six, we'd have would have a vacancy rate of six point two percent or or thereabouts. +Which is still substantially higher than the national figure, and substantially higher than the figure being proposed by the Department of the Environment for North Yorkshire. +Can you split that six point two percent between the the second homes etcetera and the normal vacancies? +Erm I don't have the figures off hand but I er we could provide those figures. +Because it presupposes, if one a assumes that the second homes etcetera remain constant. +It presupposes a reduction in the rate of normal vacancies. +I I th would prefer to look at the vacant dwellings as a single entity rather than necessarily splitting them down between the the the various types. +My question still remains the same then. +Does it not presuppose a reduction in the rate of all vacancies? +That's right, yes, from seven point one to six point two percent over the period through to two thousand and six. +If you accept that that derives from the propensity to move, is it sensible to make that assumption? +But that is only one of the factors in North Yorkshire that is influencing the vacancy rate. +We do have a very large proportion of holiday accommodation and second homes, which are concentrated in certain parts of the county. +And we're concerned that this figure of seven point one percent, is in fact artificially inflating the housing requirement through to two thousand and six. +I had hoped this would be a short point. +Could I ask +Mhm. +Our figure discounted second homes. +Our figure of the vacancy assumptions is the number of vacant dwellings. +Yes your rate was something like five and a half percent if I remember rightly, yes yes. +Yes. +No Whereas +That's right yes, but it has takes no takes no account of second homes. +H B F have gone for four point four five percent. +Yes. +But leaving the second homes as a constant figure and separate from is that right? +I can't quite see the reason for discounting second homes altogether as the D O E have done. +They are a factor in the the housing market in North Yorkshire and I think that we have to take those into account when we are looking at vacancy rates through to two thousand and six. +And I think the overall figure that we've had produced, which is around the six point two percent, is still a very substantial level of vacant dwellings within the county. +And I'm in no doubt that that will allow for the operation of a housing market, through movements er population and so forth. +What can the County Council do first of all to stop people moving house and secondly, to stop people stop d to prevent any change in the number and distribution of second homes? +The County Council isn't actually trying to control who occupies houses and what purpose they occupy them. +What we're concerned with is the amount of land that or the amo number of dwellings that we are providing, through the structure plan, through local plans for the future. +Er we're not seeking to control individual occupancy, that is not possible through the planning system. +But the implication of a declining rate of vacancies, is that something will stop people moving house. +No I I'm not sure it necessarily will stop people moving house, what we're talking about is a level of provision for vacancy rates which is still well above national rates. +Is that including your second homes though? +That is including second homes yes . +Yes. +But it +Mr , I'd hoped it would be a short point. +Obviously we're not going to reach agreement on that , but do you want to come back on vacancies. +Or or indeed does Mr want to come in on vacancies? +I could. +Steven from . +I think inadvertently, Mr has has slightly muddied the waters, by reintroducing second homes. +I think that discussion is more usefully conducted in terms of what you called normal vacancies. +And this is the basis on which the D O E have put in their figure, it's the basis on which we have put in a figure for vacant dwellings, and also the H B F. +And all of us as it were, set aside as a block, all the second homes as holiday homes and say, those are as it were , outside this enquiry, we'll leave them there. +They don't even enter into the projections we have done at all. +Because they're a constant number, it doesn't arise. +I think the issue as you rightly as Miss rightly put it, is the normal vacancy rate and is there any reason to suppose as the County Council must be supposing, that this shrinks to a degree. +And when I say the vacancy rate, I mean a percentage rather than a number. +And I don't see any mechanism whereby that production can be engineered, or indeed any intention by the County Council to engineer such a reduction. +In which case I would see that the sensible thing to do, which is what we have done, is to assume that the current vacancy rate stays the same as a percentage and that with a larger dwelling stock, results in some additional vacant dwellings. +I I can't say any more than that. +Erm that is exactly our point of view. +Sorry can I just come back to Mr 's point, where you say, that the current rate of vacancy. +Are you talking about the current rate as it prevails or we're told it prevails ion North Yorkshire, or are you looking at a figure which is somewhat nearer the national average or the figure which Mr 's organization have chosen. +Steven ,. +We have sought to use the rate for the percentage for North Yorkshire, as at the nineteen ninety one census. +I interrupted Mr . +Right, er thank you very much. +Roy , House Builders Federation. +Erm so moving on, apart from the difference in in in vacancies, we then have erm a difference related to concealed households. +Erm Mr has explained the view which is taken been taken by by North Yorkshire. +Our view is that we should seek to accommodate concealed households. +Concealed households are people who exist currently within the county. +Whether or not further concealed households are formed over the next fifteen years, seems to me to be an irrelevance. +It it should be the purpose of the planning authorities to seek to house its people. +By ignoring concealed households, it is in fact not seeking to house its people, and is in fact not doing what in fact it says it should be doing within the explanatory memorandum. +I suspect after the Prime Minister's speech last night, it's no longer political correct to talk about single parents. +If he's back to basics, but is it realistic to suggest that there will that all concealed households will disappear? +I am er it it may or may not be realistic to suggest that all concealed households will disappear. +I did say that it's probable that concealed households will be formed over the fifteen year period. +So they will continue to arise, but I think that it is right to plan to accommodate the ones that you know about. +And the ones that we know about at the moment are the ones revealed from the census. +The information from the Department of the Environment's nineteen eight nine based household projections, suggests that in fact there is a slightly larger number possibly erm in in in the round and that is five thousand dwellings as opposed to the three thousand one hundred and seventy we're seeking to include. +And so to take what we would describe as a reasonable view on this, we say that if you know from evidence there are a number of concealed households, you should seek to accommodate them. +And it is that is essentially the bottom line. +Erm one could plan to accommodate more on the chance that they will arise, but we're not putting that forward. +Erm the then the seems to us the final er difference between ourselves and the er county council, is the issue of migration and what's already been referred to as environmental discounts. +I'm sure we'll come on to discuss the nature and extent of those environmental discounts later. +Erm but what we would say at this stage, is that there doesn't seem any rationale behind the discounts that have been applied by by the County Council, indeed we have a situation in Hambleton district, where there is a seventy percent discount, erm which doesn't seem to us to have been explained or justified. +Erm we have put forward an alternative er mechanism for environmental discounts and er I can say by at this stage, by reference to the erm critique that has taken place of that of those environmental discounts in N Y eleven, that erm, while we wouldn't go along with making anywhere near the the additions that are suggested there, erm it may be that it would be sensible to make a further discount in respect of the heritage coast. +So long as that does not include Whitby and Scarborough and er any settlements to the West of the what is essentially the coast road. +Erm it may be that it it is sensible to make that discount and would only ap apply to Scarborough dis district, but as for the rest of the additional elements of er environmental discount that should be applied, I can't see why you should apply a discount in relation to agricultural land. +I'm not aware we've got people living physically on agricultural land at the moment, they are fields as far as I know. +Er and it would be just as sensible to make a discount for industrial land on that basis. +I don't see why you should make a discount in respect of greenbelts. +It is a matter of fact that greenbelts simply displace people around. +Indeed the York greenbelt is entirely designed to do that. +Displace people from York to er according to this structure plan alteration, partly to a new settlement on the outside of the greenbelt. +And indeed within the greenbelt there are a number of settlements which we are sitting in one at the moment. +Er which er have housing proposals within them and er to just make an average for the discount for the whole of the relevant parish, would be to overstate that particular case. +Erm so we have we have er a a a a major difference there. +Erm but our summary really would be that if one followed the County Councils proposals, this county would end up with a severe housing shortage. +And that will actually drive people away from North Yorkshire. +It won't actually stop people coming in to North Yorkshire. +We don't have passports in this country, although as a long-standing Yorkshireman, I've always thought we should have them with Lancashire, but that's another issue. +Erm but we don't and in fact what will happen in a housing shortage is that in migrants will be able to buy their way in. +To some extent, the government's policy of affordable housing will enable an element of affordable housing to be provided, but it won't satisfy the needs of either people who are currently on the bottom of the housing rung and seeking to move up, nor will h help people who might be seeking to afford to c to come in as first time buyers as opposed to people who are otherwise er some other arrangement through an affordable housing provider. +I have circulated round this morning, three er sheets which which help demonstrate that particular point. +The second sheet which is headed commitments, is a list which is derived from er the statements made by the different authorities, er about the number of dwellings which are already permitted in one form or another. +Er within their area. +And we can see there that there are some nearly thirty three and a half thousand dwellings already committed. +And having looked at identified needs for affordable housing, within again various statements made by the local authorities and compared those with the commitments that are left, in other words the places where they they could reasonably be found, we get some fairly large percentages of affordable housing requirement le on on on the remaining land. +And on the front sheet o entitled affordable housing, we see there that in the case of Hambleton we'd be looking at forty one percent, of the remaining dwellings being unaffordable being affordable houses, down to York where it goes up to ninety percent. +That is on the basis of the proposals put forward by the County Council. +On the other hand, if the panel were to accept the figures which we are putting forward, you can see from the s the t table at the bottom of the page, those proportions come back to down to much more reasonable amounts. +And we would say that that is much more likely to be achieved. +In short, we are the people who are looking after the interests of the North Yorkshire people. +And providing for their needs. +Similarly,I have also circulated a table entitled environmental capacity, where I have looked at what is the difference in percentage land-take terms, between the proposals of the county council and the proposals of the federation. +We can see from that table that even on unconstrained land, we are talking about a difference of point one nine percent of land take. +I would suggest to you that this must be an extraordinarily sens environmentally sensitive county if it cannot afford over fifteen years, to take an extra point one nine percent of its unconstrained land into development. +And if by doing so it was to ensure that people who are already resident in this area are driven, this would be a totally inadequate response to the needs of the people of North Yorkshire. +If we convert your nought point one nine percent into hectares we're talking about roughly five hundred, is that right? +Erm +If I if I take +Yes yes +Yes two one four O from +Yes. +one six four eight. +Yes. +That +Erm +Sorry. +Just one final point if I may about er er about about migration. +Which I'll just pick up on as a as as a final point. +Erm Mr introduced the the the the the prospect that erm if they'd have taken migration over the last three years, it would have been a much reduced figure. +Oh yes, of course it was, the last three years have been a recession, what else would you expect. +We don't think it is sensible to plan for a recession. +And indeed, given the number of dwellings that are proposed by the County Council, we see from completion rates that in fact those figures, broadly compare to the sort of completion rates we've had through the recession. +This then is essentially as we see it, a plan for the recession. +It is not a plan for the needs of the people of North Yorkshire. +And indeed, in efforts to des to also confirm our reasonableness in the figure that we've put forward, despite the fact that it's much higher than the counties, I have included in my submission, paragraph thirty nine, that there are a number of factors we could have taken into account, but haven't have chosen not to do so, er which would have in fact upped the dwelling requirement. +And one of them to some extent has has has already been discussed. +Which was which was that we didn't take the whole of the vacant dwellings, we only took a part, even though we are not aware of any planning policy that will restrict occupation of dwellings as second homes. +Thank you. +Mr Mr , Thank you for that, er er so we're we're still talking in terms of a difference of just over twelve thousand dwellings between yourselves and the county. +Indeed. +Er at the risk of upsetting everybody again, can I go back to the point which has been made by North Yorkshire on this summary sheet here. +To the apparent difference between yourselves and them on the death statistics. +Yeah. +I mean is this real or is it a red herring, which? +Well I think it's only part of the picture, that is one element of er the whole make up of er of the population structure. +And therefore, it takes one element and er it it erm it it seeks to highlight that particular element. +I would also say that in fact er in in the paper that the number of deaths is converted into houses by app application of a factor of one point seven. +Which I understand is the pensioner h er occupancy rate. +I I In other words, all the extra deaths are going to occur only in pensioners? +That may be very good news for the people of South Yorkshire who are below the age of sixty five, but I don't think it's realistic. +Erm and so er I think that that is a slightly over-exaggerated figure anyway, and should be more like four thousand one hundred dwellings, even on this basis. +But that said, erm what what it what the position is, er i is that we have put into the model Well we haven't put it into the model because it was given to us a part of the model and possibly by now North Yorkshire may have the revised model, No they haven't yet. +But erm and essentially, the difference is this, if I can illustrate it by means of reference to appendix four in er N Y two of o o of North Yorkshire. +It seems to me from looking at the figures within the projections that what North Yorkshire are are planning is that we'll have a return to that widening black area that's part of that particular diagram. +What we are saying, and this is as a result of figures which are supplied by O P C S is that we are broadly saying that we will remain in this narrow band towards the end. +Mm. +And that essentially is the difference. +And erm since we're both to some extent, crystal ball gazing, I suggest it's a matter of choice which to believe is most likely. +Thank you. +Mr . +Steven ,. +I think I can help you on the particular limited point of deaths and their effect. +Erm You asked some while ago whether it shouldn't be possible at least to have a an agreed view on how many people are dying as it were. +But what is more difficult is to have an agreed view on how many people will die and at what rate, in the year two thousand and one and beyond. +Erm I have laid round the table this morning, and I hope you have it, a single sheet of paper which sets out the component differences between the projections and the County Council. +I only want to speak at this juncture on the element of that which is due to lower mortality as I call it, I E deaths and this is addressed in paragraph five and in the table at the bottom which shows an effect of about two thousand er extra households, due to lower mortality rate assumptions in our projections. +Lower that is than the County Council. +The difference arises essentially from an improvement which is now evident in the latest national projections. +And those date from a nineteen ninety one base, as compared to what was being forecast from the nineteen eighty nine. +Thank you. +Any view from the county on that point? +Mrs . +Mrs , North Yorkshire County Council. +I think one point that seems to have bis been missed by the H B F or is the fact that the population is growing. +I too do have increased erm life expectancy for the very elderly, in our figures, the number of eighty five increased by sixty percent. +We are not trying to say that the number of deaths are going to increases substantially so that the population is not growing. +Within the sorry within the H B F projections, the populations grows by seventy thousand persons, so even though we have increased death statistics, mortality statistics where life expectancy is going to increase, by applying those onto a higher population you're naturally going to have more deaths. +I don't see how that you can possible reduce the number of deaths within the county, or even maintain it at the same level. +With this sort of growth. +And migration is restricted to the very young, we do have high levels of migration by those in retirement age groups. +Can I add a supplementary er c coming back er. +I think it's very instructive that er H B F didn't deny that they'd made a mistake on this number and just talking about old people, er the fact is that eighty five percent of deaths in the county occur to people aged over sixty five. +And so er there is a very strong correlation between er age and death unfortunately. +And we're not trying to er be er unduly morbid about this, but recognize the facts of life. +Er the er narrow band that is referred to in eighty nine, nineteen ninety one between births and deaths. +We would be very pleased to see it continue to narrow, indeed we we we we we wouldn't wish to to see it revert, but that again is a demographic fact. +Er not because of the number of deaths is going to vary sig very significantly as Mrs said, we we are allowing it to improve over time gradually. +But it's a factor because of the births is more volatile. +And the numbers of births will reduce and so there will be more deaths. +Er m more of a natural change. +I I I Roy , House Builders Federation. +I I think I must come back with the fact that I haven't denied we made made a mistake. +I haven't confirmed it either. +Erm the simple fact is that the factors that have gone into the model that which we have used, have been the nineteen ninety one based fertility, mortality and infant mortality rates. +And have been the nineteen ninety one based,correc local correction factors. +The fact that it gives a different result from the ones that North Yorkshire have used, certainly they've used the neight eight nineteen eighty nine based fertility, mortality, infant mortality rates. +I'm not sure what local correction factor they've used. +I thought from the discussion we had a month or so ago, that they've used the eighty three based correction factors, but it maybe something else because the description this morning was given it was some lo other local one. +But nevertheless it's a different one. +The fact of the matter is we've used different factors. +I used ones supplied which come effec effectively from government sources. +They have used some other. +They are different, but they're not necessarily right or wrong. +Mrs , North Yorkshire County Council. +The actual local correction factors that are supplied by the Institute are calculated by themselves. +They do look at the statistics the government statistics for fertility and mortality, but they have then the ability to amend, to adjust to local erm to to match up with local information. +But they are supplied by the Institute and not the government. +I don't want to be picky about this but but I mean they are government based. +It's a comparison of of what's happening in the county in terms of registrations of births and deaths, and what's happening nationally. +So of course they're based on national figures. +I I have a I have a nasty suspicion that we could go on all day like this if if I allowed it to happen. +Er er I d I don't think that we as a panel are necessarily going to ever and and and it may not be our role in fact to do so, to come to a judgement on it, but I would have thought as a matter of common sense, and common agreement, that there should be some er way in which the various parties would come together on the basic demographic statistics and would certainly accept that certain basic projections should be used i in looking forward. +But before I move on to suggest we have a break for coffee, is there anyone else would like to pick up any points on the demographic matters that we've been discussing, leaving aside the discussions on migration. +come back to that later on. +Leeds, +Mr from Leeds. +Yes, Ed from Leeds City Council. +Yes chair I I'd like to raise a question. +Is it legitimate for North Yorkshire to include environmental discounts in their calculation? +And I say that because as Mr touched on in his introduction, the West Yorkshire districts are set a methodology for the definition of their housing requirement, buy R P G two. +Strategic guidance for West Yorkshire. +Now that guidance does not entitle the West Yorkshire districts to introduce environmental constraints the calculation of their housing requirement. +Necessarily therefore, if North Yorkshire proceed with environmental constraints applying in their county as a whole, the proper planning of the region is being frustrated because somebody is not being planned for. +Mr . +Can I just clarify er this point that the concept of environmental discounts is not one that's been pursued by the County Council, though the Secretary of State quite clearly requires local to take into account environmental consideration. +Environmental discounts and our comments on those are in relation to a concept, I think introduced largely by er the House Builders Federation. +And our comments are to what you should or should not include erm as an environmental discount. +So it's not our concept, we're not applying environmental discounts. +The County Council's position is that er it has taken on board, environmental considerations. +I think if you look at the House Builder's Federation's papers, there you will see, their idea of environmental discount. +I think environmental discount and environmental considerations are factors which we'll come back to in in looking at the migration rates, so you're going to have another shot at this one. +Mr . +Yes thank you chair. +Erm it's really just coming back on the issue of concealed household earlier. +Er notice from the York City Council's submission, there is a difference in opinion between ourselves and the county on the calculation of housing requirement for the City of York. +That what is discussing this morning, a relatively minor difference in terms of numbers. +Now it does in fact arise from this issue of concealed households. +Erm I think it is one of the important that should be emphasized. +I think as Mr did say, erm the issue of affordable housing is a very real one. +The government guidance er in P G three makes it very clear now that it's an issue we do have to address and if we don't for land requirement. +We live in urban areas as well as rural areas. +Erm . +And so we have considered that an additional should be made in the City of York to take account of a policy objective of reducing the level of concealed and sharing households. +Thank you for that. +Can I just finish this this this session with one question back to North Yorkshire because I think you said, Within your sorry within your Sorry I'll come back to you, Within your projections you actually take account of concealed households. +They are identified . +True or false? +False. +They are identified within the census. +Yes. +The additional dwellings are not added on to eliminate the problem. +However as the actual number of dwellings increased, the proportion of those living in concealed households does actually reduce. +Right okay. +I understand now what you're saying. +Mr . +Steven ,. +Two small points sir still on these technicalities of projections. +And the first is to pick up on concealed households and just to add to the points that have already been made that erm neither the House Builders Federation nor ourselves are assuming that all be housed, but the projected number is five thousand whereas we're housing three thousand odd of them. +But also to say that elsewhere in this region, planning is on a basis that all consumer households will be housed. +West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire strategic guidance housing numbers include all concealed households. +So if we are to have a consistent regional planning framework, that should be weighed in the balance as to whether they're taken into account in North Yorkshire. +I also want to to actually draw your attention to one item on household rates. +I hesitate to do so because that's actually a source of difference between us and the County Council. +But there are parties round this table who have nostalgic hankering for a projections. +And I've put around today a short paper which has a a graph attached to it which I think adds to the explanation when I draw your attention to. +It's a graph of average household size in North Yorkshire, and it's to that extent it's an attempt to summarize into one figure, the headship rate effect as it affects average household size. +The the falling line in er in a continuous line is . +Derived either from County Council sources or actual census reports so that is as it were, fact. +And when you come to the lines on the right hand side, you have two views of the future, which are labelled eighty five based and eighty nine based. +And the are these are the D O E's projected household sizes from those two sets of household projections. +And I think the point the graph makes very clearly is that the eighty nine based set up here at least in my view, to fit far better to what has been happening than eighty five based set. +Not only had a much slower rate of fall, but are actually detached nineteen ninety one from what we know has been happening. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Mr ? +Yes. +Chairman representing . +I'd like to ask a question please of Mr . +Could he explain or clarify please what his unrestrained land, this four hundred and ninety two hectares. +Is it erm the national parks and greenbelt or I'd like to understand what it means. +Erm the if if if you turn to the er Selby submission on H one, you'll find a table at the back of that submission and that's where that's the that's where that the basis of that. +Could could you Are you happy with that? +Erm. +Would you like it spelt out? +I'd like to turn turn to the . +Selby? +Selby. +Selby H one. +Have a look at it while we're having +Coffee Mr . +Can we have a break now for fifteen minutes? +Come back at quarter to twelve. +are you . +No that's . +Yes sir the erm +Mr Cowie. +Mr Grigson the positive paper this morning was er one item and also the more general question of the nineteen eighty nine projections closer than the nineteen eighty five ones. +Er we've used the nineteen eighty nine ones but we are reluctant to do so. +We don't necessarily believe that they are all correct in what they say. +Sorry the nineteen eighty nine projections for what? +Headship. +Erm they're obtained by looking at the results of the labour force survey which is a very small proportion of households surveyed each year. +And so there must be an element of doubt over having updated from nineteen eighty one here to nineteen eighty nine. +Er we are confirmed in our reservations about this by the results of the regional census study as I noted in my brief commentary N Y three. +Erm the point about the regional census study was that it did a reasonably good job of analyzing the present situation, but not a very good job of the projections. +And we did compare the eighty nine based headship rates come from that ninety one against the census in . +And it showed er some doubt about the er actually levels of comparison, but there was a question mark they raised, specifically about North Yorkshire. +North Yorkshire in that context was different to what they found in the rest of the region. +There is n there is a doubt about whether the eighty nine headship rates are appropriate. +Had we used the eighty five ones, the housing provision would be some ten thousand or so fewer than it is. +Two thousand and six. +Sorry could you repeat +Ten thousand. +Ten thousand. +The second small point I just wish to reemphasize was er coming from what the House Builders Federation said earlier about the house builders being the people who are looking after the interests os North Yorkshire locals. +I would remind all concerned that the local needs element in the predictions is sixteen and a half thousand dwellings. +This as far as I'm aware hasn't been challenged by anybody else. +So any dwellings over and above sixteen and a half thousand, would only be taken by people moving into the county and not by locals. +And so it would not be right to say that we're not looking after the local element of the population. +I don't think that was necessarily the drift of the the House Builders Comment. +But er I'll leave that. +Your comment about the headship rates raise an interesting issue, in fact goes back to the comment Mr made, about the West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire who've got a consistent approach in projecting . +Is that correct? +That's correct . +I'm not sure whether Mrs is either able or would wish to comment necessarily at this stage but er and I but is there any possibility that in the course of the operating the R P G, although I know that circulates to me certainly . +Is there any likelihood that that consistency of approach which is being used by the South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire Counties, would er could be adap adopted for o by other authorities in the North Yorkshire County . +Thank you chairman. +Margaret , D O E. +The erm draft of or the advice that the local planning authorities intend to give to the secretary of state is currently out for consultation, we hope that it will be submitted by the end of the year. +At the moment the figures of housing provision in that draft advice are rat are done on a rather different basis for West Yorkshire as opposed to the other counties in the region. +it remains to be seen what figures are included when it is submitted to the Secretary of State and what view he takes on that. +But certainly when we in the regional office get that that advice before before we put a submission to ministers, we will of course try to reconcile the figures so that they are on a consistent basis. +As for Mr 's point that Not Mr b Steven 's point that the erm figures for the strategic guidance for West and South Yorkshire were done on a different basis, those figures with the exception of Sheffield, were erm figures that were put in by the local planning authorities, the Secretary of State accepted those figures, they were done on the nineteen eighty five based household projections, coupled with different assumptions about vacancy rates and demolitions etcetera, and the Secretary of State accepted those figures. +Erm in my view the Secretary of State may come to the view on the latest figures that are available for him and erm No that is what I hope he will do when it comes to erm producing regional guidance. +Thank you. +I m I must confess I'm one of these simple folk who thought that once we got the nineteen ninety one census figures through then it would it would all start into place. +Me too chairman. +However +Can can I just? +Carry on. +I was going to add a supplementary point er on that very issue of the nineteen ninety one census. +Er referring to the graph in er Mr 's paper, which showed that er the ninete well purported to show the nineteen eighty nine based headship rate figures were more in line with past experience. +Er that very much depends on the er intervening line at nineteen ninety one. +And I'm just wondering whether er the er point at nineteen ninety one is a correct v in view of the under-enumeration er in the census which isn't taken into account . +So it could be that there were line from eighty one would come up to the eight five based starting point er a rather than the eighty nine based starting point on the graph. +We can't look into it because it's only just been given to us. +I I would I would suspect that it needs some some interpretation. +. +Has anybody or or else want to make any comments on on the . +I'd like to move on to this er this issue of migration. +Chairman I I wonder whether I could just make a sort of general statement from the department's view before we go on to a particular issue if I may. +Erm I hope it didn't take too long to read our statement. +. It was rather shorter than than everybody else's. +. +Erm I understand that the House Builders Federation have written to my headquarters on expressing concern about the possible temerity of the regional office having actually put forward a suggested figure for housing provision in North Yorkshire. +We thought from where we sat that the department should stand up and be counted along with all the other participants around the table. +I hope you will view that figure in that light. +It is not necessarily the Secretary of State's definitive view, it is the view that erm the regional office have come to given the erm evidence presented presented at the time. +Erm secondly, I'm not a statistician, I am unable to comment about all the technicalities of the the various assumptions that go into things but some of the people sitting around this table will know that I've been in Yorkshire and Humberside for quite some time . +I therefore have a fair amount experience of this region and also erm I have been involved in quite a lot of erm estimates of housing provision over the years. +We've set out the assumptions that erm we used as a basis for our projections in the note in front of you. +I hold hold no great sway to those assumptions. +I'm sure many people sitting around this table could drive a horse and cart through any of them. +But I believe that what you should do with trying to come to estimates of housing provision, is to put together the best technical assumptions that you can, to then sit down and take a long hard look at the figures based on the erm the policies of the County Council as approved by the Secretary of State in previous structure plan approvals, the current government policy. +I have particularly in mind, the erm regeneration initiatives of this government, the experience that erm you know of an area and erm the experience of what is happening in neighbouring counties. +This chairman is what we have done. +Our conclusions for what they are worth are set out and we come to a figure of about forty five thousand. +Well. +Thank you. +Yes well +Mm. +for the next day and a half. +Can I just come back to this migration question. +And . +But the difference between the H B F and the County Council on migration is somewhere in the order of four thousand . +No No . +Now on a North Yorkshire I can't remember which paper it is. +It's in one of those. +in one of those papers, there is a figure a hundred percent migration forty six thousand . +Correct? +Yes. +Now very simple if I deduct forty one thousand two hundred from forty six thousand you'll probably say I'm doing the wrong sum. +Erm we have a difference of four thousand eight hundred. +Now is that difference four thousand eight hundred, due to wastage or entirely to your adjustments to take account of environmental considerations? +Yes that is . +The question is do I need ? +I'm chairman . +I think it's impossible to explore why there is a difference, it does not explain why the matters we have already discussed, like vacancies,households and death rates why there is a difference between what the County Council say is one hundred percent , and what the H B F and others are advocating which is considerably more. +First of all can I check that I am right in saying that the difference between the H B F's figures of fifty three thousand and the County Council's figure of forty six thousand is explained by the vacancies, concealed households, death rates etcetera. +Yes. +Can I short circuit that question and say, what in fact is your hundred percent ? +Erm Roy , House Builders Federation. +Erm fifty five thousand e No sorry, I'll have to look that up. +One hundred percent migration. +Never mind the other factors concealed households. +Fi Yeah. +Fifty five thousand seven hundred. +. +Erm Steven ,. +It would be fifty four thousand eight hundred if there was no reduction for environmental considerations. +To what extent is the difference between that figure or those figures and the County Council's forty six thousand, not explained by what ? +Roy , House Builders Federation. +My understanding is that there there there isn't any difference that is not explained by those. +Those those figures. +Erm the difference between us is of the order of ten thousand I think. +Erm +Yeah. +That's a for your calculations +Mhm. +No I'll have to I'll I'll I'm afraid I'll have to withdraw that that that comment. +There is not erm I I I I would erm I have the figures ready to hand but . +I think Peter , North Yorkshire. +I think on this side there's also a degree of corporate confusion at North Yorkshire about the what exactly the what exactly we we we're trying to establish during this current round of er . +I'm trying to establish put down a figure of forty six thousand for migration. +That was taken ,for vacant dwellings. +Yes. +What we are trying at this stage, is the extent to which the difference between the H B F's of fifty five thousand, is explained by any technical treatment of migration, as opposed to. +Chairman I wonder wonder whether it would help if I quoted from the erm the study into b the census information. +The and and and other information. +Their figure for North Yorkshire for eighty one to ninety one, from the National Health Service register, was forty seven point two inward. +The residual estimate which is from the census figures, was fifty point nine. +I don't know whether that helps in any way . +Roy , House Builders Federation. +Er that they're they're not the figures that ei either the county or ourselves started from. +. I think I can answer your original question now if I may. +Erm I think I'm right in saying that the difference on a hundred percent migration between the House Builders Federation and the County Council, is accounted for by the technical differences that we've talked about this morning, one thousand six hundred. +Seven hundred and forty which you may card to ignore, that there are some base dwellings. +Yeah. +Two thousand four hundred and ninety on vacancies. +And three thousand one hundred and seventy concealed households. +And the remaining difference which I estimate to be one thousand five hundred, is really the I think is the difference in the treatment of students. +Martin , North Yorkshire. +I think we all agree with er Mr , that that there is a technical element to migration figures which is our fifteen hundred dwellings. +As a a difference between us on technical measure. +Sir if I could complete the er arithmetic, I think it would be helpful, if you were to look again at the single page note that was handed on this morning. +At the table, in paragraph seven where we set out our differences from the County Council. +I appreciate this is not in quite the form you asked the question, but you asked the question in terms of the differences apart from migration considerations. +And as I'm able to do the arithmetic, the difference between the County Council's full migration which is forty six thousand two hundred, and ours with no environmental reduction which I gave you as fifty four thousand eight hundred, comes if I've done my arithmetic right, to eight thousand six hundred. +If that's the difference between us which are not due to migration environment. +If you now look at the table, you'll see that that's made out of three thousand two hundred for concealed households. +Two thousand one hundred for a constant vacancy proportion. +A difference of one thousand one hundred in the base dwellings stock which I've not discussed and don't propose to go into. +And two thousand for the lower death rates, national projections which I've already mentioned. +And I think that will be roughly of the order of eight thousand six hundred, so those are our component differences. +Yeah well, does anybody want to make any comment on that because I'm I'm quite environmental considerations +Yes. +Mr . +Er John , of of Consultants on behalf of the er Council for the Protection of Rural England. +Erm you you've asked er chairman for for a general comment on on what's been referred to as environmental discount, environmental considerations and so forth. +I I think the C P R E's general comments and and you'll see from our our evidence that we we've deliberately not entered into the the the debate that you you've heard to date this morning. +Er our general response is is that the approach for the County Council is is to be commended erm i in terms of I think, interpreting the true spirit of of of government guidance in in plan making, that erm the the the the discussion about figures is but one consideration. +Er to to to take into account wh when coming to agreement as to what the overall levels should be. +Erm I think we feel quite strongly that that erm er the the emphasis that should be placed on environmental considerations is is considerable. +Erm and as such, erm are concerned that perhaps i it is becoming a a secondary element erm i i in in the debate. +In in that it's just being er interpreted as a percentage reduction erm as t to migration rates. +Erm and I think just by way of introductory comment, I I refer to the the paper that that North Yorkshire put round, N Y eleven, erm in which there there's a far fuller discussion in there of what of what the environmental constraints are and what the considerations should be. +Er county-wide, in terms of er how they should be reflected erm in the figures. +And I think er w we're concerned that erm the the case presented by the county has in in concentrating on migration, perhaps they haven't haven't fully expanded on on the points that they've raised in document N Y eleven. +I wonder if by way of introduction, the county might wish to to comment on that. +Do you want to ? +Well I re Peter , North Yorkshire. +I don't wonder whether it would be helpful just step back a bit and just look at the county council's view as to how it should treat migration in the light of what the Secretary of State has approved on two occasions, when this issue has come up. +On the issue of migration and it's relationship with with adjoining counties. +And our view is that whichever way you look at approved structure plan and the two decisions of the Secretary of State, first of all in er er on the approved structure plan and secondly, on the first alteration to the structure plan. +Quite clearly there there is recognition that there should be some limit to the level of migration er inward migration in North Yorkshire. +And the Secreta the Secretary of State is quite clear that the environmental constraint in North Yorkshire, is a particularly important one. +Although we might try to decision method, the overall stress of the Secretary of State's decision methods, as they affect North Yorkshire, is that there must be some limit er to migration largely for environmental considerations and indeed, the panel in nineteen eighty seven were very concerned that er migration would not be slowed quickly enough er in North Yorkshire. +So the there is the County Council we must try er and moderate migration. +And it would appear to many rather strained within that agreed by the Secretary of State, a matter of general principle, the County Council accepted past level er of migration without looking er at the implications er of that. +And indeed there are some who make think that the County Council has been too generous in that the reduction from the hundred percent migration in four districts, er amounts only to somewhere about four and a half er thousand dwellings. +Now within that overall context, and H B F say we have no right to do that, it conflicts with . +We say that it is important to the general stress erm of the structure plan. +There should be some reduction er in migration er into North Yorkshire. +That's the basic philosophy of the County Council's approach er in this plan. +Yes er Joe representing Sams Samuel Smith's Brewery in Tadcaster. +There is a technical difference that I should erm draw attention, draw the panel's attention to between ourselves and erm other p other in the migration rates. +We believe that the migration rates that should be used should be a three year average rather than an eight or a ten year average. +Our reasons for that are that the especially the eight year average used by the County Council, are unduly skewed by the boom of the late eighties, and give in our view, to high a trend t to erm to work from. +Er the second reason that we would suggest this to the panel is that it is actually er used by OPCAS, the three year average is used by OPCAS rather than an eight year average. +And as far as I can see, the only reason for an eight year average is because that was accepted by the previous panel. +Well I don't believe that that should necessarily be a reason why it should be accepted in this case in by this panel. +And it would in our view give a more accurate reflection of current trends if a shorter period were used. +but if you're using three year average,three recent three years. +that you in fact recession. +Well in fact we we do answer that point in our submissions that in fact it does take in Our three year average does take into account the tail end of the boom. +So it does actually span the end of the boom, the beginnings of the recession. +Yes, gentleman, the problem is the shorter the period, the less chance you have of getting a measurement which is necessarily representative of a general trend. +Yes I I I would accept that as a general point yes that that that that that that the greater number of years, the more likely you are to get a long term trend. +But er there is a a and I wouldn inevitably er one does stray into I know want it in particular points at the moment, but there is a policy consideration to be borne in mind as well, which erm does suggest that past trends should not necessarily be projected into the future. +And i from a technical point of view I would support my case by saying that if OPCAS use it, it's good enough for us if it's good enough for OPCAS. +. +Can I I know we've got two people wanting to make comments on this . +Mr . +Yes chairman, er Mike Cleveland County Council. +Er I'm not quite sure what er stage you want us to b be involved on this intensive policy but I I can't comment on the the technicalities of the vacancy rates even migration rates. +But erm in terms of policy, erm Cleveland County Council supports the approach that North Yorkshire and the district councils in the area are taking. +Er on two counts in terms of policy. +Er and following what er Miss indicated. +Erm we have a major regeneration er issue in Cleveland and would like to retain as much of the population within the urban area within the compact urban area that we have as possible. +And secondly we do recognize the quality of the countryside South of Cleveland and need to to retain its character and the lit the character of its villages which erm in fact do add to the attractions of the area when you're trying to e erm bring in new industry. +Er undoubtedly a number of erm our res er our our er employed people, do live in the area immediately adjoining to the South and er the figures that Hambleton have produced and our own estimates based on the National Health er Service records on migration, do indicate that there is a strong movement er on an annual basis into the North Yorkshire area and in particular the sort of area. +And we do recognize there are limits on the sort of growth in that area. +So erm I can give you more detailed figures on these er if you wish. +I don't I don't need to . +And that's er just broadly speaking we we wish to support the general approach that North Yorkshire and it's districts are taking in terms of changing the trend. +. +Okay. +Mr . +Thank you sir, Steven ,. +Keeping away fro the area of technicalities on migration. +I think we all need to bear in mind that as far as what Mr said about what the approved strategy was and what the Secretary of Sta of State previously said. +As I read the previous documents, the strategy was to bring down the rate of development in North Yorkshire and that has happened. +From the late seventies, to the nineteen eighties or rather from the from the seventies, not just late seventies, to the nineteen eighties, it's come down about a thousand broad terms, a thousand dwellings a year fewer being built. +And we see that strategy as having succeeded. +And we applaud the County Council for it. +It shouldn't go to their heads. +And it seems to me to follow that the migration rates which go with that lower rate are the migration rates consistent with the approved strategy. +And we don't see in principle any reason to divert from them. +The second point I want to make is in relation to something that has changed since the approved strategy and that is the inter-relationship between North Yorkshire and West Yorkshire. +I know we're going to come on to this again later. +I only want to deal with it in broad terms and that is that compared to earlier E I Ps where West Yorkshire authorities were saying, Don't take too many people into North Yorkshire, as you'll undermine our regeneration to paraphrase. +We now have the West Yorkshire authorities saying, Hang about, you're loading too much onto us, by not taking your share of migration out of West Yorkshire. +And that seems to me a fairly fundamental shift in the regional balance of argument and need. +I only have one small comment in the point made by Consultants for the C P R E that one should place more emphasis on the environment. +I'm afraid it's a negative comment. +But the C P R E's evidence doesn't offer you anything to go on, save that the figures have been approached in the wrong way, cos they didn't start bottom up from the environment. +And on that argument sir, the figures would be wrong whatever they are, whether they're half the amount the County Council put forward or twice. +It's a valid point but it doesn't actually help you come to a recommendation. +And finally, staying with generalities on migration, I think it behoves us all to be a bit cautious because I see quite a lot of fantasy and fiction around in in this E I P and I'd be guilty of it myself at times. +We're all talking as if migration can be manipulated and a share between housing for migrants and housing for local need can be er arranged by us planners according to the numbers we write down on a sheet of paper. +And in my experience, that usually is a foolhardy expectation. +Migration has, particularly from metropolitan areas a certain tendency to keep going, a certain inexorability about it. +And I would just caution all of us, when we're discussing local needs or migration, be it at the county level or at the district council level. +How a little sort of warning flag that pops up in your mind to say, this may actually be largely fiction and we can't control migration anyway. +I appreciate that's a useful way to discuss it, but let's not imagine it's necessarily going to turn out like that. +What about? +Mr . +Yeah. +Roy , House Builders Federation. +To pick on u u up a few other points that have been made. +I heard Mr say I think that it that the view of the H B F was that the county had no ra right to make reductions in migration. +That is not the H B F evidence. +The H B F evidence is that we they've no right to make any arbitrary reductions in just taking er unjustified blocks. +And indeed B P G twelve, under the heading of environmental considerations says that a a authorities should have regard to environmental considerations, but recommend an environmental appraisal identifying, quantifying, weighing up and reporting on the environmental and other cost benefits of the measures which are proposed. +That doesn't form part of this alteration, there is no such justification and that's our particular objection to it. +In so far as a three year average is concerned, point b made by Mr and erm that being taken into account the tail end of the boom. +I have to say that the boom of the nineteen eighties was something of a myth. +Yes certainly in the late nineteen eighties, more houses were built in one particular year,depend depending on which part of the country you're in it happens to be different years. +But the at the end of the eightee nineteen eighties. +Compared with the average of the eighties as a whole. +But the average of the eighties as a whole was low in house building terms. +It was the lowest decade of house building since the Second World War. +And in fact, on the County Council's own figures, which have g got completions since nineteen seventy seven, you'll find that nineteen seventy seven to nineteen seventy nine, have higher house building rates, than the highest rate of the nineteen e the highest year of the nineteen eighties. +Which rather proves a point that in fact it was a low period, and therefore if you take a low period historically, which is er includes a a boom in inverted commas, within that, then overall you're going to end up with a very low figure er in total. +So er it seems to me that it's particularly invalid to take the last three years. +Erm as far as the C P R E's point is concerned, about erm government the true spirit of government guidance, being to take environmental considerations first, I find no especial support for that within any of the P P Gs. +Indeed P P G one paragraph four, talks about guiding development to the right places. +As well as preventing development which is not acceptable. +P P G three e paragraph one, says the planning system must provide an adequate and continuous supply of land for housing. +All seems to me and I could quote other other references from P P Gs as well to support the point, seems to me that the thrust of government guidance is balance. +It is a matter of providing for the right amount of development in a balanced way. +It is not putting environmental considerations first, last and if there's any left over, in between as well. +Er I don't wish to pursue the point made by Mi Mike at this stage, but I will return to it under one C. +Thank you. +Michael , Hambleton District Council. +Erm I think I'd like to pick on er up on something that Mr has said about the strategy underlying the er approved structure plan. +And also to support er Mr . +Erm I think that certain elements of the structure plan erm strategy have been well documented er, the environmental issues, erm high priority to conservation, erm protection of the county's natural resources, of development restraint and relating the scale of development much more closely to local needs. +However there's erm a further aspect of the original strategy which I would like specifically to draw to the panel's attention. +This is that the strategy of the structure plan from the beginning was to seek a progressive reduction in the rate of house-building in the county by seeking a progressive excuse me. +A progressive reduction in the rate of inward migration. +And I I'd refer the panel erm to the written statement of the county structure plan of nineteen seventy nine, erm and the section entitled, the Strategic Framework, paragraph three nine on page ten. +Which states erm the strategy envisag envisages a progressive reduction in the rate of the population growth from this source, as the supply of housing land is reduced to levels more closely related to the needs arising from North Yorkshire. +Now the original structure plan recognized that because of the substantial number of housing commitments at that time, erm it wasn't possible erm to er bring down the levels immediately. +And it was going to be a long term strategy. +The term, long term strategy in fact appears in a number of instances erm throughout those pages. +And I'd refer you to paragraph three ten and also paragraph four two two which I'd like to quote a short erm element from. +And this states erm that Its effectiveness erm must be must be considered as a long term rather than a short term objective. +The structure plan can not be seen for providing for a major or sudden change in direction. +It's essentially evolutionary in its approach . +So the point erm I wish to make erm on er Mr 's observations, is that it's not the strategy of the structure plan was not simply erm to seek an initial reduction erm in the rate of residential development in the county and then that roll that rate forward in progressive erm amendments to the structure plan, Hambleton District Council believes that the logical interpretation of these statements is that a progressive reduction er in house building and the rates of migration should be sought through subsequent alterations to the plan. +Now we would add that representations which seek to achieve a continuation of past building rates, or a continuation of past migration levels, are not in accord with the strategy as originally approved. +Finally, I'd refer you to erm the Secretary of State's decision letter of the twenty sixth of November nineteen eighty where in paragraph one he takes note of the recent justification and in paragraph six four, he states that overall, the Secretary of State broadly approves the main objective of the housing policies of the plan of reducing inward migration into the county. +Yes I'd j I'd just like to to pick up on on two points er, one made by Mr , one made by Mr . +Erm I think er Mr said I think that that C P R E hasn't actually offered a solution in this debate, just just raised questions. +I don't think that's strictly true but I do think that the discussion we've heard so far er has fully justified erm the the raising of some fundamental questions about the the the the method of projections. +Er and the point about not offering a solution, C P R E clearly has in in erm taking to to go on to talk about the subsequent parts of policy H one and H two, the County Council's figures and then doing an analysis of those in relation to the new settlement, but I appreciate chairman that erm we'll come back to that. +Mr raised the point about erm the environmental appraisal of of development plans, erm as set out in P P G twelve which is is indicative of a a a new er a new framework in which plans should be prepared. +And and I would argue that that er an alteration to a structure plan of this significance, should should fall within the remit of P P G twelve. +My understanding of what Mr was saying was that because it's an alteration rather than a replacement structure plan, that guidance no longer applies. +That's not my understanding of how government guidance works. +Peter , North Yorkshire. +I think Mr picked up on the points that I really wanted to address in Mr 's remarks. +Other than to say, the Secretary of State didn't limit his concern to reducing rates of development. +Right through the decision letters, you get two elements. +The effect of excessive development on the environment in North Yorkshire, and the second on is a relationship with places like Cleveland and West Yorkshire and the need to continue to see regeneration within those areas. +It was a much broader package of for the Secretary of State than I think Mr , er suggests. +The other point which Mr made on the difficulties of er manipulating migration. +And I think, quite cl clearly, there are difficulties in manipulating migration. +What it does require are complementary policies either side er of county boundaries. +Mr , er about the policies of Cleveland within their area, to retain their population by making massive allocations of land. +Er adjacent er to a North Yorkshire boundary. +And if you go to places like erm Guisborough, erm er and South Middlesbrough there you will see a range of housing types available for range of groups in the community. +If they weren't there, those houses, I suspect a large proportion of those people would now be living in North Yorkshire. +So there's a requirement of complementary policies. +And the County Council's consistently said to the West Yorkshire authorities, you must make provision for a range of sites in suitable locations to help draw er development that would othe otherwise come to North Yorkshire. +Now something's been said for certainly fifteen years er that I can remember. +, Michael,. +Several points on the the question of migration as reported or a as included by the Secretary of State in in his decision letters. +The first point I'd like to make is that the original decision letter dates from excuse me, twenty sixth of November nineteen eighty. +We're now thirteen years further on. +I think whilst the Secretary of State has clearly said what he's said in that decision letter. +I think we have to remind ourselves that that is thirteen years old and that circumstances have changed. +Not least in the neighbouring metropolitan areas, where urban regeneration is thirteen years old. +There's substantial improvement, particularly in West Yorkshire, and that does need to be taken into account. +I'll go on to say that on the question of progressive migration restraint, I don't think anybody round this table is suggesting otherwise. +The population projections that we have seen in front of us we h have discussed, are based upon what has happened in the county over the past eight years. +That is that is where the migration projections have come from. +The these migration flows are already constrained by s existing structure plan policies. +I think the close co-relationship between the rate of building, rate of past building and structure plan requirements, shows that those policies have teeth. +Th that has been what's happened, there has been a reduction in migration flow. +Or or not in migration flow but in net inward migration. +These population projections we have, the hundred percent projections of the H B F of fifty five point K, of North Yorkshire of forty six point two K, of of fifty four point eight. +None of the requests for housing requirement are at that level. +That therefore assumes a continuing an i an increasingly progressive restraint on migration. +. +Mr Sorry Mr . +Right, er Ray , House Builders Federation. +Erm Mr referred to er put great store it seemed to me on the long term effectiveness of of of reducing er building. +I'd just make the simple point that a sudden twelve point five percent reduction, I referred to it this morning, er in in building, is not progressively and long term, it's a sudden change. +Erm and I think that erm the C P R E have most definitely misquoted what I said. +I'll repeat the point. +I'm not saying that P P G twelve does not apply. +But I'm making the point, it does apply but it has to be justified. +You have to justify the restraints that you make. +My criticism of the restraints that have been applied by the County Council, is that they have not been justified. +And we would regard them as arbitrary. +And I would also point out that we are not proposing excessive development, in one of the papers I've I've put round, and I repeat the point I made it earlier. +We're talking about point one nine percent. +Point one nine percent of the remaining unrestrained land. +As an addition. +And that presupposes in that calculation, if you were taking the worst case, that that would all be greenfield land. +The truth of the matter is of course it probably wouldn't be all greenfield land, but that's the worst case that I'm talking about. +S O I think that it would be a very special place if it was unable to absorb that amount of development. +Miss . +Yeah. +, D O E. +I merely wish to reiterate government policy, as reinforced by my Secretary of State, John Gummer, last week in the terms of the single bu regeneration budget. +And the emphasis that government places on regeneration of the urban areas. +Are you going to submit that document? +If you wish,by all means yes . +It seems to me to be important enough to be worth tabling if that can be arranged . +Fine fine. +Would you like would you like the press release? +Yes. +Please. +Yeah. +Mr , do you want to come back on the point made on the other side of the room about your arbitrary selection of building rates? +I think presumably you'll be wishing at a later stage to look at what we're proposing in erm in individual districts. +And one against another. +I think the quite clearly what comes out erm of reading our papers and the papers of the district, is the er tremendous degree of consultation that's taken place on a number of occasions back and forth between district and making use of er of emerging working on er on local plans across the county. +Erm to make sure that the proposals the County Council er is is putting forward are are soundly based. +And we'd elaborate that when we talk about er individual districts. +I think it might be worth adjourning ask if there are any more demographic . +And start again +. +Right. +I'd like to say a little bit about this table. +Now? +Mm. +Mhm. +Any more points anybody wants to make on the demographic aspects? +The migration rates. +environment, I don't know whether that's later +Well I think we'll probably deal with that this afternoon. +Yeah. +Yeah. +There's a Harrogate. +Mr . +Thank you, er David , Harrogate Borough Council. +Er one or two small points I'd like to make. +Mr , er a moment ago congratulated the County Council in fact on the success of the strategy in reducing migration over the last ten years or so. +He then went on to say it's not actually possible to control the rate of migration and I'm sure that the the s success of of the policy in the past shows that that that is not the case. +That it is possible through the appropriate use of policies, to bring down levels of immigration into the county. +Er Mr also made the point that er urban regeneration erm no longer seems to have the emphasis that it did have. +er I'm sure that the er representatives from the West Yorkshire authorities wi will say that their that objective is still extremely important in the in the respective U D Ps. +Erm it seems to me that the emphasis has changed slightly in the representations being made by the West Yorkshire authorities and that they're now saying that it's much more difficult for them to accommodate housing developments within their own er districts. +And that therefore, that growth should be exported to North Yorkshire. +Er another minor point, er Mr n erm said that e the level of restraints that we're er seeking to or that the County Council is seeking to impose, represents a sudden restriction on house-building levels in in North Yorkshire. +That certainly wouldn't be the case in Harrogate. +Erm we would be allocating land through our local plan for the year two thousand and six. +That restriction suddenly wouldn't be imposed in the next two or three years, it would be a gradual reduction through to to the year two thousand and six. +And the point about erm er the extra development taking up only point one percent of the counties unrestricted land, erm is is statistical point really. +It's even less taking up i i er land being taken up in the region as a whole, it's even less in terms of the U K. +The important point is what it means for the settlement to the environment of North Yorkshire. +And er that level of development, at five hundred hectares, is an extremely large area of land, in very sensitive locations, particularly around the main urban areas, which are restricted to a great degree. +Thank you. +I think we'll come back to that when we start looking at the county district by district as it were. +I think Miss would like to make some comment about the table, which was presented to her. +I thought you might like an for the lunch hour. +Erm as the notes to this table indicate, it is a compilation by the panel secretary of what we believe is before us. +You will have noticed there are some pregnant gaps on this table. +We're not optimistic that we will fill them all, but one, we can for example talk about conversions. +The more numerical evidence we can have before us, the better. +As the chairman also said, the table points up some interesting questions. +One of those interesting questions is, for example, the relationship between column H and column I and the way in which those relationships change as we move from one district to another. +Thoughts for lunch time. +Mr . +of . +Er this is clearly go going to become an important schedule and I think it you will inevitably run into difficulties here on different definitions of allocations for example. +Erm if you er if I take the Greater York area for example, erm if you er if I take the Greater York area for example , the County Council erm have included in their figure of four thousand seven hundred and ten units, no new allocations, is my understanding. +Right. +Yes. +Yeah. +Yeah . +This is the sort of thing we want to discuss as we go through each of the areas which we shall do under matter one C. +Or one C. +But I think there must be I I would suggest to you that you sh you should request a discussion between the principle parties here to agree what allocations they're taking, whether in adopted plans or proposed plans or previous plans and what windfalls. +One of the great problems of this schedule would be, the definition of the amount of windfalls, bearing in mind that many of the local plans coming forward erm are about to be produced rather than have just been produced. +Yeah yeah. +And I think that it is an important er qualification to this schedule that the principle parties can agree what the in inputted are. +Indeed and I would hope our discussion of the provision within individual districts, will amend many of these figures. +Certainly those which are relate to the future as opposed to what has happened in the past. +Okay thank you. +Mr . +Martin , North Yorkshire County Council. +Just a couple of of quick comments er er chairman just on the the the vacant co blank columns you have, J K L and M. +Erm whilst the County Council can provide you with some figures on vacancies at a district level, we would be very loathe to make any comment on the assumptions for conversions and windfall sites. +We feel that this is very much a matter for the district councils in the preparation of their local plans, with their local knowledge which is something we do not have at the county level to be able to to make comment on . +Yeah. +I I I think we do accept that you probably not be able to fill those gaps. +Er some districts may have some knowledge. +I mean Hambleton for example having just produced their draft local plan, but other districts are not quite in that position. +Yeah. +But eventually those gaps would be filled. +That's right. +But certainly wherever it is possible to put a figure in, then we would appreciate it. +Yeah, Could I also just quickly comment on the differences between columns H and I that you've referred to. +That this does to a very large extent reflect the differences in local plan preparation across the county. +You have already referred to Hambleton's progress . +Mm. +Yeah Yeah . +Which is perhaps not matched with the s quite the same stage by other districts across the county. +Yes. +Yeah. +I think that will be crystallized or become clarified as we get into the discussion, district by district. +Mr , you want to come back on that. +Er Richard ,. +Very briefly, I think the County Council must consider what they're going to do for conversions in windfalls. +It's quite clear in in P P G three, paragraph eleven, that structure plans will make clear whether the housing provision figures include allowance from expected supply from conversions and changes of use, as well as from new building. +And for unidentified and for losses from demolitions. +The exercise must be done and should have been done by now. +Mm. +Yeah, my objective was not actually to start a debate but to give you some indication of where we were going to go this afternoon. +Food for thought. +Mr . +Leeds City Council. +I'd like to come back to policy on migration chair, and I'm grateful to Mr for pointing out that nineteen eighty is thirteen years ag away and things have moved on in every respect demographically. +In development terms. +We've even got a new planning system. +And I venture to suggest we've got new guidance from the Secretary of State. +Because we in West Yorkshire have got regional planning guidance is sorry strategic planning guidance issued in nineteen eighty nine +Yes. +Which tells us how to determine our housing requirements and doesn't ask us to take into account restraint in North Yorkshire. +But that S P G is about to be replaced by R P G isn't it? +Well we would all welcome that but in in its absence, I suggest that the current policy is defined by the R P G, even though that's not specifically targeted at North Yorkshire, none the less, to be consistent, North Yorkshire should not be entitled to a to reduce arbitrarily, it's er migration assumptions. +As I understand it, S P G is your S P G is not geared to the same time horizon is. +D O E. +Cone I just comment briefly chairman. +The Strategic planning guidance goes to two thousand and one. +it was based on the figures that the West Yorkshire authorities submitted to the Secretary of State, which was on a policy as I understand it, of containing as much of their population they as as they were possible to. +Erm they estimated there was going to be a continued out migration, but the aim of the original West Yorkshire structure plan and the p erm strategic guidance was to contain rather more of the population. +Regional planning guidance will go to two thousand and six. +We shall have to see what that contains. +Yeah. +I think that's all we can say at this stage. +Mm. +Thank you. +I unless anybody has got a Mr . +Erm +Er +And Mr second. +Just a just a very brief point. +Erm it relates to er something that Mr said erm for er for Leeds City Council, that circumstances have moved on. +I would suggest that indeed they have moved on erm since erm the original er decision letter of the structure plan. +One area in fact that circumstances have moved on is erm on environmental awareness. +I think that erm all would agree that now there is greater er concern than ever before about environmental issues. +Erm planning legislation and advice in P P Gs erm have made the environment a far more prominent concern of planning than it was when erm the original structure plan was approved. +And indeed the alterations were approved in nineteen eighty seven. +Erm authorities are expected to show that environmental concerns have been comprehensively and consistently taken into adv erm account in their plans. +Erm the planning conversation act nineteen ninety one requires the development plans to include policies for the conservation and that of the natural beauty and amenity of their land. +Erm P P G twelve advises that policy should be in line with the concept of sustainable development. +And now erm draft advice in P P G thirteen emphasizes the need to reduce the need for travel. +Erm again because of the environmental con considerations. +Erm and we would suggest that in the light of these new environmental erm of these new requirements and advice, erm it would be unrealistic to er to expect them not to be taken into account in the structure plan and give greater emphasis to the environmental originally environmental concerns of the structure plan. +Thank you. +Mr +. +Just to er the Leeds point, er it is actually a stated aim of the Leeds development plan to make adequate provision for the communities housing needs during the plan period, by identification of sufficient land for new dwellings, targeting of some provision for social housing, need groups and support for renewal of the existing stock. +And then further in the plan, it deals with the er migration issue, and it says, New household t New household total still assumes that a substantial amount of housing will need to be met outside Leeds as a result of net outward migration from the district. +Net out movement of the order of twenty seven thousand, eight hundred people is assumed over the period nineteen e eighty six, two thousand and one. +Equivalent to around eleven thousand households. +The loss is a little below the strategic guidance figure of thirty thousand two hundred and also represents an improvement over the historic trend. +This is consistent a more optimistic view of future economic performance that is appropriate in the light of the counties economic strategy. +And that and on the economic strategy which is U D P based. +There's a clear implication there, that the U D P policy is moving in the dire the same direction as the Cleveland policy is moving. +And that is to make provision for its own population and to claw back economic development er within the boundaries of the area. +Mr that was a long quotation, can you submit +It's in it's in. +My submission on that point is +No can you submit the doc a copy of that paper the document. +Yes yes I can. +It's an extract from the Leeds U D P. +Yes I understood that. +Our notes weren't that fast. +I have I have read it elsewhere and not necessarily having read the doc the whole of the document of the Leeds U D P but on that note, since Leeds leads would you like to +Yeah, could I just er respond to Mr and say, this is not the public enquiry into the Leeds development plan. +Er obviously we will er justify our position at that public enquiry. +Er I'm simply talking about a level playing field. +What is the framework within which we are operating at the moment. +And I'm again grateful to Mr for reminding the panel of the con the constraints of the environmental policies within which we all work, not just North Yorkshire authorities, we're all required to look at environmental considerations. +What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. +And er if if it's appropriate for North Yorkshire to apply environmental constraints within the whole of its area, I'm not talking about particular districts but in in the whole of its area, then it is appropriate for Leeds and Bradford and the metropolitan districts to to do exactly the same thing. +And that will just lead to planning chaos because obviously somebody's going to fall between the plans. +Thank you for R P G. +On on on that note, can I suggest we adjourn for lunch, meet back here at two o'clock, prompt start. + +. +So Mr , can you tell me whereabouts you were born in Nottingham and when? +Well it so happens I was not born in Nottingham, though my early memories are of Nottingham, right even from infant school, which er started at five years of age till about seven. +But in fact I was born in , Northamptonshire. +My father being a railwayman and er asking and doing various jobs from being ordinary shunter and man-about, eventually graduated by way of He's he was a Lancashire man, you see? +And the family really come from in Lancashire? +Which is a considerably humble place. +Anyway he went about in railway jobs as the years went by and I was born in , taken with the rest to Leicester, City of Leicester, but my early memories was in Nottingham. +I don't remember the prior, it's what my parents have told me and the birth certificate shows, of course. +And so the first memories is in the meadows of Nottingham, going to infant school about the age don't remember starting, but perhaps I'd be six years of age, and it was a little church school and they were all lady teachers and most of them Mrs and not the Miss which is nowadays er more common. +And strange to say, it had coal fires in the winter, huge coal fires to keep it warm, or attempt to do, and most of the classrooms were only divided by portable partitions so that while we went from class to class as the two or three years went by,it really was in one long building and quite adequate for the time. +How big were the classes then? +Can you recall that? +I recall being in the first class and er a teacher coming to me, as I weren't paying much attention I think, and to this day I shall remember and never forget, she just folded my arms in front of me and says, Percy, you're not listening, you'll have to have a rest. +And she put my head on my hands on the desk in front of me and believe me, I went to sleep, it was must have been very, very new, compared to being at home and perhaps being laid there. +But they're they were all kind ladies and er the thing that they punished us with really was made of cardboard, like er, er a pointer or a stick, it was a pointer that they pointed to the board when they drew things on and told us about them, but sometimes boys By the way, boy sat with girl, at the desk with two in and er it was quite satisfactory, I don't remember any other upset with being there th th th there were two sexes, we were five years of age to begin with and stayed till seven. +Anyway, that took a year or two and I even remember taking my next brother to school, me mother saying Take Frank to school and tell Miss , he's your brother and he's five. +So I did and it's very strange I remember toddling off with this little chap and er and Miss said, Who is this then? or words to that effect. +And remember now, the language of the day, said It's our Frank. +And er that was all the particulars I think Miss ever got for him. +And that er church school took us to the standard, at that time, called standard one, which was in a big school, about half a mile away and was built by the Nottingham Education Committee and was one of say, six or eight in the Nottingham area, I suppose. +And there was a far cry from the kind lady who would lay one's head on a desk and say, You have a sleep. +And er +In wh In what ways was was it a far cry? +How how did the contrast strike you? +Well although it was so near, it was really a mining district and ninety percent of the boys We were at separate schools by the way, the ground floors were boys, from the age of seven upwards, till fourteen. +Upstairs were the girls, from the similar ages and and one wing of this big school was infants. +Which I hadn't known about or my mother and otherwise living near enough they could have s done that school and gone through from five years to er fourteen. +Anyway, standard one was a breaking-in for this er other discipline and not quite so easy and learning how to spell. +And teacher would er tell us that next week with her spelling lesson she'd want a new word, would we learn one at home? +And er er the week following we'd all have to spell the word we'd chose. +And it was a simple as that . +Again, Oh we'd graduated then from pencils and paper, to pen and ink and paper, the ink being in er a well sunk in the desk in front of us. +Each boy had a inkwell and er a pen, blue-black ink and so on and some of the small books that we used for writing in were kept under the desk. +Most of the textbooks, were handed to us came from cupboards of storage, of which they must have had about sixty each, those classes were always, from then on, sixty boys in a class for one teacher. +Er standard one was er no trouble, except er er pretty timid, remember being timid, the boys could be very rough in play and there was much nudging in the playground as they ran about at their various games. +And so to standard two, where the That was th the next year, each class was expected to take about a year, which it did. +In st in standard two though, having passed through there, the Headmaster came in near the end of the second year and said because of the number of scholars er some boys would have to miss standard three because there was too many for the class. +They could er er er because thi it this would be a birthrate problem not known to us as boys and I along with seven or eight others, were taken to the standard four to start, after the holidays, which was in August. +We had a month's holiday in August every year. +But to break us into this new er schooling the Headmaster had us in various mornings for an hour and was supposed, well tried, to make a sort of summary of what the lesson would have been in standard three . +And believe it or not, one of the subjects was er the geography of England. +Now, to this day, I'm a dunce at the geography of England, I know where the principle towns are, I know you go north to Manchester and south to London and generally get about. +But the intricacies, I know more about Europe, eventually , and other countries, due to not being having a a briefing by a Headmaster for half an hour of something The group of us, he had eight to ten of us in the room trying to prime us on what we'd missed for a year. +And and many times I apologize for asking where various places are, because I just can't visualize Most of the other things from school come without being beckoned, er one thinks of er the economy, they taught about us about various things of the economy. +Oh, by this time, er being born in nineteen hundred and five, by nineteen fourteen, that was nine years, the Great War started. +Yes, what what impact did that have upon your schooling ? +The Great War started and took the scho er This Road school had all men teachers extep except standard one, which was an introduction from infants to grown-up and a matronly lady always called Miss , er broke us into this new sort of discipline and sternness really. +The rest er er standard two to standard six, were all male, but lo and behold before I got to standard five, that had all become women and the men had all gone to the into the services. +Because although that war didn't have conscription in nineteen fourteen or nineteen fifteen, I believe it started in nineteen sixteen, back end, and er we we'd got all women teachers who were quite a different problem from a school of that nature. +Cos a boy in standard five could be getting on for thirteen. +There were quite a few dunces,and er some didn't always get moved on and they didn't all make it into the top class, they had to stop again for another year, or period, in the class they were. +Yes, I was going to ask, what well, what effect did the er er the substitution of the the male teachers by the women teachers during the the the Great War period? +H How do you think it affected the schooling? +Well, in my observation, as regards young boys, it er th they played could play them up, the lads would play pranks on the teacher, who would put the best on it for a long time. +Worse come to the worse, she brought the Headmaster in with his cane and he was er like the one in the stories, skilled to rule, but anyway his most proficiency was wielding this cane, which was a good three foot long. +It wasn't the things you go fishing with, it was a s solid cane of er not hollow, and er I never knew him have another one. +But if even if one was late from for school, he had a monitor on the doors to the outside world and when the whistle went for nine o'clock that door was closed and there The boys marshalled in the yard to er get in the lines and marched to the classes. +He then dealt with those who were late and those who were late would then appear to be six or seven minutes late because of these other preliminaries. +But he brooked nothing, he just asked er, What's made you late? +And there's various reasons, whether your mother wanted some milk bringing. +By the way, this was the period when I could to a milk shop for a hape'orth of milk, but it's not the halfpenny that people think now, cos the currency's been altered quite a lot, it was very trifling, but it's true. +Milk, a little dip of milk was sold, into a jug, there were no bottles, and er you could get some for a ha'penny. +And so, you could be late for various things like that, but you got the stick. +Oh, so whatever. +And er +Did it happen frequently? +Children getting the stick ? +It happened everyday for those who were late. +Eventually, the discipline is such as one used your influence on your mother and so if I'm late I'll get the cane, and so on. +So er it wasn't pleasant and I didn't have it a lot either, because I never were very big, and I never liked punishment, it made me cry every time. +It did, really. +It's a cruel thing and especially to hit a boy on his right hand and then expect him to write with it. +This I found, at various times, my fingers were suffering from this wallop in the oh, at ten past nine in the morning. +But anyway, most things were like that, I think it had to be something like, In his noisy mansion, skilled to rule. +It had to be, he had to do something or they would never have er got In other ways in was a lenient school because as the years went by it was, a register was called, a teacher er opened a book and we called numbers. +Alas, I found that , my surname, spelt , was always first on the register whichever class I was, so I was number one. +And er,l er those whose names er began with er later initials in the alphabet and we didn't have any Z 's, there were no Zilliachas in those days. +But they were some well on, lo and behold, could open the door er two or three minutes late and c er call the er number, Yes sir, er as they entered the class and they would get their mark, this being I think you got a red mark if you were late,t to stand out so that an inspector who came down periodically could look down the register and there was the record of who was early and who was late by the colour of the ink-pens, I think. +So that was a strange thing too, with this er alphabetical thing. +So +The only Excuse me, er no, we even had Abbot, A double B, er didn't always get in front but I think it should have done you know, you take the first letter and then you take the . +We had Askews and all sorts of, Astills,strange, isn't it? +The alphabet? +Anyway, that was a simple rhythm there and periodically a chap from the Education Committee used to come and check this register and the classes, and some passed through the class. +But that was just er ordinary the geography of this, or the history of that, many battles, Bosworth Field and +I was going to ask,d d do you think looking back er th th that the school erm tt taught you to regard certain things as important in life? +Was it d d d w was there was there like er erm sort of pa er erm love of country or or did they stress, say the virtues of honesty a a and fairness, can can you remember anything like that? +Well I I think the period that embraced my school days, you see I didn't leave till nineteen nineteen and th that meant there'd been four years of war at school and the last year well, it ended in er nineteen eighteen, the war did, so only the last year , but it was full of patriotism and all the old scholars that had er served or suffered or been killed, their names were up. +Yes, we were very, very patriotic and er I'm not ashamed of it. +Er I have a love of country, I know I'm er English, I don't like to say I'm British, I live and was born in England. +And when I go to Wales for a holiday and there are Welshmen, they're just as good as I am, some can sing so much nicer, and I've worked with Scotsmen in engineering factories, and there's no better engineers than Scotsmen, but they don't necessarily call them British. +Everywhere I've been, He's a Scottie. +Or he's a p er Irishmen can be a Paddy and so on. +And so I er never went the whole hog that way with thumping the British , British and best and so on. +It could be and sometimes was, but i er the standard takes a lot of keeping up and er Much of the influence comes from newspaper and superior people implanting it on the population by reiterating these standards which often are wishful and they would like it to be so, but er They were hard days, they were hungry days. +I was growing, but I'm now, I never got much higher than about five foot one and I weighed eight stone for a many years. +But I was a little person in er a commu community of little person and er my brothers worked down the pit and I believe it was an advantage not to be much greater than five foot in height down the pits. +It was the time of wooden pit props and er much kneeling and laying down and hacking away at the coal with picks and there was no mining machinery as we know it now. +Could I? +Could I just move you on a little bit? +Having having talked about about your schooling to er +. +ask you about er family life and the impression that left upon on as you were growing up? +W w what can you remember of your father? +W w w what job did he have? +And what kind of man was he ? +Yes. +My father worked on the railway and in my conscious life he was a supervisor, he was called an inspector, Inspector . +He had two foremans worked under him, the purpose being they did the shifts, my father did all the writing for the Great Central Railway Depot, the marshalling yard or sorting out the trains. +Strange to say, these trains do not come from other towns, say Birmingham, with er a trainload of stuff for Nottingham, they come with a trainload of stuff for here there and everywhere. +And the person who had sorted it together at Birmingham made sure that the next stop it was at, the waggons would be at the back end to leave in that town and this is what my father was doing by er er shunting as it was called, or making a train up to go from Nottingham to London, or some other place in the country, with up to fifty or sixty trucks behind it and they didn't want the trucks next to the engine to be dropped off at the first place and having to shove and push about in their marshalling yard. +It seemed a simple system when I got to know it, but wondered what it was all about, with chaps standing in different places and shouting and bawling where they wanted this waggon that was being pushed off, as he came running without the train they diverted it into siding, you see, sorting out a train. +And it's not everybody's job to do that, so ordinary people took the jobs as shunters and could be taught how to do it in short time, if they were average and er in good health. +Cos it's an outdoor job, it's a three shift system for those on the bottom, er early, morning and late, cos the eight hour day had come in at this time. +Which would whe around when? +When are we talking about now? +Say about n nineteen? +In the early nineteen twenties. +We'd er +Twenties. +Yeah. +er s er but those occupations that worked shift and had to go round the clock had to have eight hour shifts, three shifts. +You could have earlies, lates and nights, which many people don't know, and I worked earlies, lates and night in engineering. +Earlies er when I worked at the Ford Motor Company it meant getting from Ilford to Dagenham and starting on a machine at six A M in the morning, in the middle of winter or the middle of summer. +And the next fortnight I would be on the afternoon shift, which meant getting the same distance, to half past two to work till They were eight hour shifts you see and the night shift likewise had to come a very er a tremendous number from working at the Ford Motor Company at Dagenham ev even in those days, travel from various places. +And it's not all honey, starting somewhere at six in the morning if you live eight or nine miles off. +There were not the multitude of motorcars about in those days, as there are now, but that was one of the firms that was trying to make it,and has done it, like that. +So workmen have very irksome hours of work, unsocial hours I think they call them now, one of the most unsocial is the night shift. +I've never been in any factory in my life, working nights, I have been in many, but I've never found my fellow men very sociable on the night shift. +Actually you go there to work, but there is er a meal break and various things, you have contact with each other, either borrowing tools or sharing the use of them, but tempers get very short in the small hours of the morning and men get pretty tired. +They can be It's no comparison with day work. +Okay. +Just to t to come back to what prompted you to to give us that interesting er little evaluation of the the differences that night and day work have men +night and days +to get get back to the beginning, to get back to your father? +Yes. +Erm y i i is it growing up ? +Yes. +On the railway. +Yeah. +Erm +Well, I find, and still find, the clerical people are remote from reality. +They they would think that a man er starting at eight in the morning will do as many and as quick for ten o'clock, as a man starting at night, or at six o'clock in the morning, or the afternoon shift. +But it's not so. +There's different tempos and I would think er on all the shifts there is a variation of production just because of the hour of the day. +It is not natural to work through the night shift, I've worked it, there is no way of starting a week without your Er I've slept a night before, somewhere at the weekend, when the day comes, but you've got to go the next night to work. +Even as a young person me mother used to say You'll need some sleep, you go to bed this afternoon, which I did, in obedience. +But you know sleep escapes a young person, if one's in their young twenties and they think you can go to bed at er half past two in the afternoon and have an hour or two. +It's not on. +Er nowadays I've no trouble in dropping asleep in the afternoon +No. +but in the twenties I was better at the pictures or somewhere like that, which you could get for a few pence, but you're not walking about or doing tiring thing. +Could I ask you then, when when you? +When when was your first job? +When did you leave school? +And did you know what you were going to do when you left school? +Well, my mother I left school and me mother said, the Labour Exchanges had come into being, er this was nineteen nineteen, they were in existence in Nottingham. +And they had addresses and I ran around, I went to get a job at the pit, which er I had no more sense so I'm glad now that I didn't get on. +And I found months and months after that most of the boys that got on there had their fathers work there, who went to the office, or asked the Butties, they used to talk about Butties in the pit, and I found this was short for deputy. +Not er the th The employer deputized his authority and there was deputies in the pit, but never in factories. +They have foremen, under-foremen, charge hands and so on, but in the pit they deputies down there. +And er +You passed up the chance to go the pit then? +Yes. +Inside a month, I was sent to an engineering place which was er close to where I live and I started there inside about a month. +Can you remember the name of it?place ? +It was the John and a very big factory in it's day, in as much as it was er four storeys high, rather high in those days for heavy machinery to be on level like that. +And with the war ending the the Germans had had to pay reparations and that factory and many more were extremely busy because they were making lace machines for France. +France was devastated and er they had always had a lace trade but we found in after years, this is a point that shouldn't be missed, that destruction by the Germans and the replacing under reparations, I understood the money came from, anyway the firm worked day and night for years, er left Nottingham the lace centre with the old pre-war machines and France and areas, including Italy, er with the modern machines. +Even in villages, I known men who've worked abroad fitting them up in in er Germany and in France and in Italy, one of whom went to night school in Germany to learn the language t to get on better, he was there to receive machines. +They're very big, like printing machines are . +Yeah. +Yeah. +So i it was a thriving and booming factory because of this supply of machines through +It was a working day and night and the er just as busy as the +. +wartime until, oh before, say, four years. +And then much of this leeway was made up and the capacity being there er, well the hours of work were getting tackled then, they'd been longer hours and er I think as a a boy coming out of apprenticeship, er the forty seven hour week had come into being. +Did you take an +apprenticeship then? +Yes. +Yeah. +I was apprenticed +Yeah. +and er worked till I was twenty one and you usually got the sack when you were twenty one, unless they were busy, very busy, they would say, You er, you won't get the full money at twenty one because er w I can get a man of forty one for that money. +Th there's a t three a two year period where you'll be an improver, where you could have an increase in pay about every six months, bringing you up gradually. +But should go to another factory and er hold your own in the factory you could expect to get the full money, which I did at twenty one. +I went to Newark and got a job at , a ball bearing factory, and er they paid me the handsome wage of er two pounds sixteen for forty seven hours. +It came to about one and three halfpence an hour. +You have to allow the coins changed now, the three halfpence is not comparable with the present pence. +But it was very low. +Yeah. +You wouldn't ten shillings for a day. +Or it would be approximately ten shillings for a day because we had to work Saturday morning, although it was at Newark and got to travel twenty +Yeah. +miles there and twenty miles back. +We Was it apparent to you at the time that the wage was low? +Well to me it was a first time and being an unmarried man that I'd earned anything like it. +It was the men there who were aggrieved, who had had better wages as the war had ended and there was such a rush on, wages had gone up, but the once the boom was got over they came down. +And by er nineteen twenty six the engineers suffered a calamitous drop from about er four pound odd down to this two pound sixteen. +Newark, by the way, was less than Nottingham because it was a country district. +Nottingham considered to be more of engineering, not quite metropolitan, but varied trades and factories +Mm. +Mm. +Mm. +Yeah. +and commanded a little bit more. +Yeah. +Was it was it difficult then to to to to have to have got a job in Nottingham, you had to go to Newark because it was w work wasn't as ava as as er +As I said the er lace trade +available in ? +had er B building lace machines had er had it, in the term, and they started to diversify into a variation of the hosiery, which was quite another speciality. +There were other places in Nottingham that had made nothing but hosiery machines and weren't quite as good as were at making lace machines. +had a good reputation, although it was a non-union firm and n much maligned by er union people who disliked stand for not er sort of recognizing. +You could work there being in a trade union but didn't have to say so. +Yeah. +See? +It was kept small. +But they made machines that did lace curtains, lace er is er a variant now, and er probably a thing of the past, but there was amazing things done on a lace machine. +There's some in Nottingham, in one of the mus museum, that has the Nottingham coat of arms, I think it has the council house and various things, and it's all done mechanically on a huge machine that er is a repetition in each bay It's probably thirty, forty foot long, but in each bay of about seven foot it's separate curtain. +But that machine can be doing, say eight curtains, coming off a bottom roller, being woven over and onto another one, till they're taken off. +Endlessly, this pattern repeated endlessly, and the man could walk along and they'd all be working, he just goes with an assistant to er repair broken threads. +They get broken, or the end of the line and so on, to join up you get a little blemish there which a repairer will do. +So they they're pretty accurate er machines in a a pattern way, not a I found later in engineering where they needed things to the micrometer and the very, very fine measurement, very particular to the th the tissue paper difference between er er one thing and another wasn't good enough. +It had got to be as near as thi thinness of tissue paper. +We have feelers, metal strips, that are one and a half thou thick, we call it, you can't have them any thinner because they can make them in Sheffield at one thou thick but they suffer and bend by use. +If you try to push them under a place to see if it's touching, you'll find they get bent up and once there's a bend in you can't smooth it. +So the standard feelers for an engineer goes from about one and a half thou up to fifteen thou, the rest you can measure by other things. +These are feelers. +Y Yeah. +You mentioned er earlier the trade unions and er you mentioned the the er middle twent middle nineteen twenties as a period of industrial un un un unrest. +Yeah. +W When when did you first join a trade-union yourself and get involved? +When I er er were in the tool room at , Newark at the age of twenty one plus, you see, not twenty two er I was approached then by a shop steward who worked on the bench, was a fitter. +I was always on a machine, cutting, milling machine. +And I joined the the engineer's union, one Saturday night in Newark, had to go back there and they had meetings in the townhall, a room that was hired and er was er particulars taken and I've been in ever since. +I'm still in the union, from nineteen twenty six to nineteen eighty three and next Monday I shall go to the branch cos I have an interest in the organization and the movement. +I can't say it's been marvellously successful but I do know for a fact that the conditions of the working class was improved tremendously by organizations in the thing which has come to be described as trade-unionism. +Er, there are abuses in some and variations and er not always a desire by everyone to belong to it, but the odd man out is often like a bad apple in a barrel. +And er it's strange to me how an employer would be happy to have a room with a hundred and hope to get one or two who weren't, either for reasons of information or things that one couldn't trust from a worker. +They are not in company in factories, there's antagonism between management and the shop floor. +There is also the difference between employees who are in offices, who for some reason or other, I've always found and still do, they seem to have a notion that they're a different class to others who work for wages. +They will talk about salaries and things like that but they're often paid, well, very remotely some of them, monthly now, and think that's er heavenly or something. +But mostly, in my experience, they were paid just the same as we do we were, perhaps on a different day and a different method. +We had to stand in a line. +I've been to Newark on a Friday night and stood in a line with others on a night shift at a w wooden hut in the yard whilst a clerk from the pay office came to meet us, the day shift finishing at er, say five o'clock. +He'd come half past seven to eight to pay us as we came to work, to hand us the money we'd earnt for the last week, always keeping about three days in hand. +So employers, in my experience, even to the day I left, always owe the workman something for what he's done +Mm. +and it would appear in the simple times, before mine, even I had experience at Newark, that men could get a sub in the week because you're actually in two days you've actually earnt two days money and you haven't got it. +And if a yarn was spun, or a general true story that a man had to have his train fare to get to Newark and he had to pay this and that, you could er get a loan on your wages. +But you had to have qualified for it by working, see?end of the week and the only place I ever had one was at and because the foreman approached me, I'd been out of work and got the job by writing to it, going to the library and it was in one of the London papers, they wanted men for the tool rooms. +I got to be working where they made the tools in that of the engineering shop and er I travelled on a Sunday from Nottingham to London and +What year would this be? +Just to put it into context ? +Yes . +Yes. +Well, I'd be er I'd got er a daughter, nineteen twenty nine, I would say, nineteen twenty eight . +Twenty nine, yes. +I'd er at been at Newark till then for about four years or so and the er slump had come about and they were sacked by the hundreds, including myself. +I asked the under-foreman what I'd done to deserve this, he says You're not on your own, there's er a quarter to go this week and good many next, so that's what it's come to. +We made ball and roller bearings for the car trade, the car trade had come a slump and the car trade to this day doesn't want one bearing or one detail for a car until it's ready to put it on a car. +I found this out at Dagenham, when I worked at Fords, the supply lorries used to come through the day and through the night with articles made in other factories, including bodies and wheels and these were put on the assembly line and routed through Fords to be assembled. +It's quite true that er wheels from subsidiaries in Dagenham and bodies would be on the road inside two hours of having left another factory because they were on the same industrial site. +But they hadn't been made at Fords, they'd been made in a subsidiary, taken up the road on long trailers, taken off the trailer onto the assembly conveyor, which er crawls round the assembly line and fitted like that. +That's the economy of the motor trade, apparently Henry Ford in America had an upset and er tried to beat the banks and er had loans and he was frightened that they would get control of his business and the we were told that at Dagenham. +And it's quite true, I was there about four years and they always took stock before January the first, so that after Christmas came an anomaly, we'd had a Christmas holiday and gone back to work. +In the north of England they have New Year's Day but they don't in the south in England, they might do now. +And but at Fords we they we were laid off again for this other weekend till they took stock. +It would appear Henry Ford had insisted on this ever since that crush, so that he could always how he stood financially. +It's with not knowing how one is that one has to go to the banks and so on. +Anyway that was their way of dealing with workmen there, they their word was law. +So whilst it was a good paid job, for instance ri + +Creator and sustainer of all things and all people. +You are the source of all wisdom and light. +Enlighten our minds to receive your guidance so that you may lead us unto true wisdom. +May all that we say and do in the service of this county, whether as elected member or as officer, be in accordance with your will and for the good of your people. +Amen. +Yes we've got about two hundred people outside. +Firstly, evacuation procedure. +In the event, and this is a normal evacuation procedure, not with the circumstances. +In the event of having to evacuate the council chamber would everyone leave by one of the two exits at the rear of the chamber. +Officers will be at hand to assist any disabled persons. +Agenda item one, Chairman's announcement -visitors. +I welcome to this meeting all visitors and guest of members and in particular to the Mayor and Mayoress of Councillor and Mrs Mike . +Mr Robert and Mr Ken . +I know members will be sorry to hear that Mr Robert and Mr Ken are both unwell and will wish me to convey to them the council's best wishes for a speedy recovery. +Here, here. +The, there are two hundred people I am told, in the hall at the rear so I shall move shortly resolution to bring forward motion at the rear of the agenda forward, before that I shall deal with the routine council business of petitions, declarations of interest and members' questions. +After that I shall move the resolution to bring the motion forward. +Agenda item two. +I move that the minutes of the meeting of the council held on thirtieth of June nineteen ninety three, copies of which have been circulated to members, to be taken as read, confirmed and signed. +Item four. +Declarations of interest. +Are there any members who wish to do make declarations of pecuniary and non-pecuniary interests in respects of items on the agenda for this meeting. +Chairman, I wish to declare an interest on the social services erm item regarding elderly person's homes. +Mr +an interest in policy and resources item B. +Mr +I declare an interest in, on item nine part B. +Mr the resources issue. +Could we just clear whether those are pecuniary or non-pecuniary. +Could you confirm whether these are pecuniary or non- pecuniary interests please? +Could we start +Pecuniary. +Pecuniary. +Non-pecuniary. +Non-pecuniary. +Pecuniary. +Pecuniary. +Non-pecuniary. +Non-pecuniary. +Thank you. +No other interests, right. +Agenda item four, petitions presented under standing order seven. +Mr . +Thank you gentlemen. +I would like to present a petition standing my, in my name on the green order paper signed by two hundred and eight si signatures of parents of St Mary's Fields s school, erm I move that this be be referred to the education committee for consideration. +Mrs seconding. +Seconded. +Thank you. +Mrs +Thank you chairman. +I wish to present the petition containing seven hundred and eighty three signatures of people who request the provision of a pedestrian crossing in Brook Side, Burghley following two recent accidents to elderly residents as elaborated on the green order paper. +I move that the petition be referred to the environment committee for consideration +Mr +Second that. +Thank you. +Mr +I'd like to move a petition containing four, two hundred and forty nine signatures of residents of Broadstone who request a ped pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane near road. +I move that it be sent to the environment committee for consideration. +Mrs +Seconded. +Mr Chairman +Er, Mr . +Thank you chairman. +I wish to present a petition containing seven hundred and ninety six signatures organised by the Bell Group community childcare, set up due to lack of affordable child care facilities in the Belgrave area. +I move this petition to be referred to the Social Services committee. +Mrs +Seconded chairman. +Mr +I I move the petition in my name on the green order paper Chairman, to restrict the speed of of cars in Mossgate, Leicester on behalf of Weston Park Labour party. +I move that it be referred to the environment committee. +Mr . +Second that. +Mr , J R +I'd like to move this petition under my name on the green order paper, that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration today. +Mr Cyril +Mr +I'd like to move a petition containing two hundred and forty four signatures and my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. +Mrs +Seconded chairman +Mr +I move a petition containing nine hundred and sixteen signatures under my name on the green order page and I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. +Mr +Seconded chairman. +Not quite as tall eh. +Mr . +I'd like to present a petition containing five hundred er plus signatures from residents in road area who are concerned with traffic conditions on that road. +I ask that it be referred to the environment committee for consideration. +Mr . +Second. +Without seconding seconded +Mr +Thank you chairman. +I will move that the petition containing some one thousand one hundred and nine signatures as of, as of today, erm of people who call upon the county council to reverse its decision to sell part of the land known as The Green, Doddington Heath in my ward for development purposes. +The petitioners further request Chairman, that the county council retain this land in perpetuity as an open space that is managed to conserve its considerable ecological value and recreational value and I would urge that this committee, this this council refer the petition to the policy and resources committee and that the decision of the council is reversed on this matter. +Thank you unclear +here, here +I'd be delighted to second it Chairman. +Thank you. +Mrs . +Erm yes, thank you Chairman, erm I present a petition on behalf of the er people of the village of Bradstone er concerned about the dangerous alignment of the highway and ask that this be referred to the environment committee. +Mr +Er, seconded. +Mrs +Chairman, I ask that you receive erm, the petition of eight hundred and sixty four signatures requesting a pelican crossing on and ask it be referred to the environment committee, please. +Mrs +Seconded. +Mrs again. +Thank you Chairman. +The second one to present the petition of one thousand three hundred and seventy two signatures asking that, who are opposed to Brady Hospital being turned into specialised unit for adolescents and to ask the county council not to proceed with plans to develop a group three community home on the site, erm I ask it be referred to the social services committee. +Mrs +Seconded. +Doctor +I'd like to move a petition containing seven hundred and twelve signatures, residents of Broadstone who request the installation of a pedestrian crossing on Broadstone Lane, bottom end of Shakespeare Drive and propose that it is passed on to the environment committee for consideration. +Mr +Seconded Chairman. +Mr +I wish to move a petition signed by four hundred and one people organised by the Hikehams Community Association asking the full county council to freeze its decision on of the Hikehams and Moat er merger issue. +I wish the petition to be referred to the policy and resources committee. +Mr . +Mr . +Thank you Chair. +Smallest petition of the lot, but the most important one regarding road. +Can I move that it be referred to the environment er committee. +Ciao. +Mr +Mr . +Sir I wish to present a petition containing a hundred and sixty six signatures of people who are opposed to the shutting off of the road calling instead for +the loco , the low cost tr er calming, traffic calming in the area. +Thank you. +Mr +I'd like to second that petition. +Mr +Petition containing nine hundred and ninety three signatures of people who are opposed to the East West link road . +I move that the decision be referred to the environment committee for consideration. +Mr B +There are other petitions appertaining to a motion they will be referred to when the motion is taken. +Now move on to agenda item five, questions under standing orders. +Miss er Mr would you . +Thank you Chairman. +Chair, with with the, with one small exception in in her reply that of Hamilton Community College would the Chairman agree that er the others she mentions in her reply to one and I note that she doesn't agree with Keith M P erm, would she, would she accept that the others are largely inaccessible to the youth of Nether Hall and what's she gonna do about it? +Mrs supplementary +I don't know I don't know who Mr is referring to er Chair, but I presume you wish me to reply to some comments that came from across the other side of the room. +nice one sir +I thought Mrs you'd be capable of defending yourself. +Erm, I er have never known such a question asked in this council chamber where referring to members of parliament er in in er and that is why I didn't feel it necessary +Can you use the mike? +To comment on that in my reply. +I didn't think it necessary to comment about that in my reply to that, in fact I have, I was speaking with er Mr when I saw this question down and reported it to him that his name was being used in such a way erm. +I'd like to say that in reply to the question your Mr will see that we are arranging a meeting to discuss the issues of youth facilities in erm the Netherhall area. +I think everybody in this council chamber could say we want youth facilities in my ward. +Here, here. +Youth provision is, is a county council responsibility not a city council responsibility although for your information Mr , without the er zodiac youth centre grant in the ninety one, ninety two figures er, two hundred and thirty nine thousand one hundred and sixty six pounds were put in by the city council into that s , into that specific area in the Humberstone ward and the amount that was put in there in this financial year was approximately the same, but the reason being that there is no mar more money available is because hundreds of thousand of pounds were cut out of youth and community facilities that should have been provided by this city council by the Tory budget which this council approved last February. +Thank you. +Would you ar er next question then Mr any supplementary on those. +Thank you Chairman. +Erm, Chairman,w would the spokesman agree that the that the resources argument which she has just used is is completely fallacious and would she rather expect +Mr +Yes. +Mrs, this is Mrs would you refer to members by name please. +Mrs I do apologise to Mrs Chairman. +Would Mrs agree that the resources argument that she's just used is completely fallacious and would she not accept er that it's better to spend fifty thousand pounds +can you please be +on providing youth facilities in Netherhall than it is for five hundred thousand pounds +on the in Highfield. +We are dealing, with respect, we are dealing, I asked you to raise questions on the social services committee. +I I was asking under two Chairman. +Sit down old chap +If if you would like to reply, you don't have to reply Mrs it's up to you. +talking about Mr Chairman +Right, would you +Mr will you,Mr will you please ask er, put forward any supplementary questions if you have them, on the next item of the spokesman of the social services committee please. +Thank you Chairman. +Erm, no questions on my second set but I'm very grateful for the er spokesman for their reply. +Erm, if I m +If there's no supplementary well that's it really +If I may Chairman on the third set of questions erm those are +which is? +You're talking of..? +the er, the young people in secure accommodation Chairman. +Erm, under number one erm, is the Chairman aware that the er current talk in Whitehall which has given out the contracts for er new secure accommodation units in various counties that the current talk in Whitehall is that because Leicestershire doesn't know its own mind because of the recent votes over secure accommodation that it's unlikely to get one in the present er round and isn't that a damning indictment erm of the Liberal and Labour parties in this county. +Mrs +It's Mr +That's right, Mr sorry +Mr +I'm not entirely sure Chairman that Whitehall's ever made up its mind on anything +Erm, bearing in mind that Leicestershire currently I think er reserves two places for secure accommodation and in the answers to my question, we have fifteen currently either needing or having secure accommodation with five being remanded because there is no place. +Erm, would the er spokesman not agree that there is a crisis in secure accommodation in Leicestershire at the moment due entirely to the stance of the Labour and Liberal parties on this authority. +Mr +The need for additional secure places that can be accessed by Leicestershire is not at issue,what's still be investigated is how a regional service meeting varying types of needs can be provided discussions are still taking place with Northamptonshire county council and into some other current secure unit provider authorities as to how best Leicestershire can work with other local authorities in the region towards this objective. +Neither Whitehall,nor government nor this county council, nor the children we're talking about would welcome being used as a political football by Mr . +Here, here . +Thank you Mr . +Dr , any supplementaries on your question? +Yes er to the for former question er Chairman. +Er, what am I to tell the people in London and partic in particular er when they say that the government and the county council is letting them down? +Mr +Er, Chairman the, the only advice that I can give Dr on that point is to say that the county council is not letting them down er the funding for major road schemes is provided by central government and we make a contribution towards it but if central government do not give us permission to go ahead with the race road scheme in terms of a grant, then in fact it will not go ahead and in that situation they may be let down, that is their judgement and that should be reflected in the way they vote at parliamentary elections. +Mr , any supplementaries, thank you Mr . +Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman +any supplementaries +I have two supplementary questions. +First one concerning A. In view of the level of con concern expressed on police funding, would the chairman of the Police authority agree that some f that some protection of Police funds locally and nationally may be necessary. +Mr +Yes, thank you, thank you, er thank you Mr councillor erm. +Can I can I say that in my opinion that the county council's current budgeting strategy which effectively imposes a two percent efficiency saving which I might add in figures come to something like one point five million erm is, is of concern but what is of greater concern is the further possibility of a four percent er reduction which is being sought in blocks of three percent and one percent next year for ninety four ninety five which is to the amount of two point eight million at the current prices will in my opinion decimate the present level of service provision in policing. +Erm. +Community policing will be further marginalised with priority going to intermediate response type of incidents I am confident however that this council will make some crucial and vitally important decisions during the next er budget rounds and the importance of policing an inadequately funded service will be unanimously supported. +Can I also add that representations to the Secretary of State for the Home Office will be central er component to secure those adequate resources with the Leicestershire Police erm, erm service needs. +Thank you. +Thank you Mr +Does the Chairman share my concern regarding the Home Secretary's proposals containing the white paper on Police which will dramatically reduce local accountability of the Police service to the Leicestershire public. +Mr +I'm grateful chair, once again for Mr on that er second supplementary. +The real danger of course is the forthcoming Police bill the proposal which were instituted by the present er Treasurer,erm er the Chancellor er and instituted further on by the present Home Secretary would lead to a centrally appointed Police committee at least fifty percent and a centrally appointed chairman, paid by the Home Secretary much rather like the Leicestershire Health Authority and of course this will severely undermine the local democratic accountability of the Police service. +Can I also add that it will also instigate centrally determined policing policies, very much akin to other government policies, particularly economic policies which have, as yet, done nothing to address the underlying causes of crime and there are fears and I'm quoting here from the er the response made by the Association of Metropolitan Authorities, the Association of County Councils and the Association of District Councils that it could lead to a national Police force. +But what is important is that there is opposition er Chairman at the national level which is set to continue and once again representations are being undertaken er to be made to local Members of Parliament and to Members of the House of Lords. +But it is of concern and I do hope that in the next forthcoming er house er when the the house sits in the forthcoming rounds, that they will be mindful of the representations which have been made nationally and that the Police service and the proposals contained, particularly in the Police bill, will not be fully implemented in the way that they're currently proposed on the white paper today. +Could I point out to members that we did have er written replies to try and speed up the question process, could I ask members both in asking the question and especially in answering, not to make it another speech occasion because otherwise it destroys the whole purpose of having the written replies. +Please try and keep questions and answers to the point please, thank you. +Did you wish Mr to raise your, on the, in that, that concludes you does it Mr ? +Okay. +Mr you have a question. +Chairman, yes. +Thank you very much,yes point taken but a vitally important issue and I'm very grateful once again that you have allowed this as an emergency question erm. +My supplementary is will the Chairman of policy and resources committee make a statement to the county council to reassure and inform the ethnic minority community and the general public of Leicestershire of the need for tolerance and racial harmony and reaffirm the county council's opposition to all forms of racist dogma. +Can I further ask will he join me to congratulate the Chief Constable in an unprecedented move in which he actually formed links and created a an environment of partnership as recently highlighted in the Leicester Mercury. +Thank you. +Mr +Thank you Mr Chairman, thank you Mr . +If it is not an emergency question, you are in time Mr with your question, in case anyone thinks that it was an emergency question was put down +It wasn't an emergency question. +It was not. +No it was, it was in the time limit. +I must say in that sense, thank you Mr for your question, because it's an an issue that's conc should concern every member of this authority. +I would like the members of this authority to to have a look at the reply I make no apology for the length of the reply to Mr 's very important question. +On erm what you have asked for Mr . +I must say that I am happy to make that statement and in view of some of the things that have been, that have appeared in the media recently here's a statement that needs to be made as for your your your ques , what the, the Chief Constable I welcome the statement and the actions of the Chief Constable on this very concerning issue. +Thank you. +Mr Have you any supplementary? +Yes sir, on the erm first part erm in in clarification if I might sir the erm question of er briefing the Chairman is in fact dealt with in paragraph forty seven of annex C of P P G twelve although I'm grateful for information on paragraph forty eight, erm and it says amongst other things that er there shall be a briefing and that briefing, the contents of that briefing shall be made public can I press the er spokesman for the environment committee to tell us er why in fact that wasn't done and whether he thinks there can be prop proper public debate if it isn't done. +Sorry about that. +Carry on Mr +It is my understanding from the reply there's a fairly clear statement there that that was done erm I indeed have a copy of the principal briefing paper which the Director prepared for the panel, Chairman it outlined the background to the structure plan review, it referred to the previously approved structure plans, copies of which were appended to the briefing paper. +It referred to the regional strategy which is currently out for consultation but was an emerging document and copies of that were again appended to the briefing paper it outlined the county council's procedures which were followed in progress in the structure plan it outlined a programme establishing the weight of opinion of objectors it indicated our process in preparing policy amendments to be put to the panel and all those matters were made public It also requested the panel's view on the role of county council members at the enquiry in public the responses to that were not made public and were in fact a question which was clearly put to the panel. +The paper also discussed erm the proposed topics for discussion at the enquiry in public it explained where the county council's er relevant policies would be found in the extra electory memorandum it outlined the key objections and the proposed participants for each topic. +The first two of those were also included were made public, they are in the issue's papers it did not make public the county council's proposal as to who should be participants for each topic since those were matters for the the panel er to to ma take a view of and I understood er from er the question er the answer to the question that it had been made clear that er the information had been made public except as always Chairman,er our legal office's of the council always like that caveat that in case anything had been missed out I had just in fact suggested that perhaps not everything had been made public so I anticipated a possible supplementary question from Mr . +Thank you. +That concludes the questions and answers +No it doesn't sir +Clarification +The second question I have with your permission sir. +Yeah. +Erm should the erm that, given that er, sorry, that the er, er O P C S in fact erm er after every census makes er guesses about its accuracy erm would erm the spokesman, is the spokesman aware that in fact O P C S has said that a fair erm representation of the intercensal increase in population in Leicestershire er between nineteen eighty one and nineteen ninety one is in fact fifteen thousand people and doesn't he feel that to provide for fifty three thousand in the structure plan is a little over the top? +Mr +Mr makes there was an under, enumeration of figures and that has been made clear in the reply the reply is quite clear about the basis on which the structure plan is being promulgated and the total projected total population in two thousand and six regards the historical data, that should be taken, as far as I'm concerned, as matters of fact, will of course not be absolutely accurate and as far as projected data is concerned all that we can do any of us can do is to try and make the best estimates possible and I am satisfied that our officers will have done that. +I hope I've understood the supplementary question correctly, if I've not I apologise to Mr but we are dealing in a technical area. +Thank you. +I have decided to exercise my discretion under standing order five so that agenda item nine B, notice of motion by Mr on fox-hunting to be taken now. +In addition to the many personal representation made to members of the council on the subject of fox hunting on county council land, the county secretary has now received a total of two hundred and six written representations nearly as many as me. +Of these a hundred and sixty eight contain expressions of opposition to fox hunting and thirty eight contain either expressions of support for fox hunting or that the county council should not be considering the matter for one reason or another. +I have also had passed to me a petition from Mr containing four thousand five hundred signatures from the national anti-hunt petition er, there is a doubt of the petition or a letter from the tenant farmers but er, there is representation from them. +Erm, Mr would you move the motion please. +Thank you Chair, erm +In moving the motion this time I'm not going to be very passionate like I normally am on on subjects in this council chamber I'm I'm actually gonna try and keep, I'm actually going to try and keep politics down to a low level and er because I believe there conscience on all sides of this chamber. +We have not got a monopoly on conscience I know that certain Liberals have debated this subject and as th the passions been raised in their group meetings. +I know also that some Conservatives that feel that perhaps what I've laid before you this afternoon has some credence. +The reason I did this, because some sixteen months ago, like over a year ago we brought it and lost it, it wasn't a victory for anybody or er or er a real loss for anyone because it was lost by one vote. +By wrecking a motion at the time,rightly or wrongly placed and once again I see this afternoon we've got a similar motion on the table. +What I want to do though is is kind of thank a few people for start off. +anti-hunt people, the League of Cruel Sports and all sorts of other organisations that have actually asked their members not to be here today, not to cause a problem, not to divert attention from the real issues in the debate er er and cause a crisis outside for all the press and the media to latch on to, that's not what they were about. +I respect the fact the Hunt are here, er I respect the fact the literature that they've sent us, from all sides of the fence, from the League Against Cruel Sports, the hunting fraternity, it's been very helpful. +It hasn't changed my view. +I also want to put right it, er the facts that have been presented to me, that it's an urban erm view, it's city people making a er, their will, imposing their will on country folk, on the practices of country folk. +I am not a city person and have never lived in a city in my life I represent a rural area, a hunting area, a hunting area erm I believe the terrier men from the some of them live in my area. +I can tell you this the general public have sent me literally hundreds of cards I have had well wishing cards, I've also had some letters from the opposition, some of them, to be quite honest, have been disgraceful. +Some of them have asked me about my parentage, some of them have asked me whether or not I am tinkering with the laws of God. +I will extract those to one side and say they not really followers of the hunt, they are probably some weird faction that latch onto these type of things during erm these issues. +It's a shame also that we have to fill the council chamber on such a debate. +It's a pity that the general public don't come into this chamber on, on a normal debate, about education, about children's needs, about social services, the very things that I've +Here, here, +been attacked over the last few months of not wasting time on the hunt I spend an awful lot of time relieving heavy goods traffic in my area, concerned totally about the environment, about mineral extraction quarries, mining, open cast, things of that calibre. +This is one debate, one small debate, hopefully put to bed within an hour with a decent result. +The motion itself is a compromise some on my side have said it's too much of a compromise they've said you're tr trying to be all things to all people. +What I have done is hopefully brought together a er a view of people, a clash of personalities and a way forward. +I want to answer the questions on jobs. +Those jobs can be protected, I know the hunting fraternity say they don't want to drag hunt. +We set standards, standards evolve we are coming to the stage now in nineteen ninety three the standards that are being set are changing and at the end of the day the hunt have got to come along with us. +The gauntlet was down, the opportunity to talk to arrange a forum, to come together, land owners, local authorities, the hunt's people, er the interested parties, to come together and look for a decent way of hunting and that way is probably drag hunting and we're giving you a golden opportunity to start that route. +It's gotta start somewhere, there's a motion, a tide of feeling going across the country on council from council, it won't be long before people like me are M P's and others around you that are M P's are in the +and fellow members that will be down in Whitehall and eventually will put you to bed, if you bury your head in the sand and at the end of the day I'm afraid the country is going to knock it off. +The general public are saying no. +Time has come for a change. +I want to thank also er the different organisations, cos you made an absolute profit for the G P O, er erm British Telecom, they must have actually made a bomb in Leicestershire over the last few days. +I thank the League Against Cruel Sports for their literature. +Very, very informative. +I also thank the hunting fraternity for their documentary they sent me on hunting the facts. +But I would like to point out in this video, and on the brochure that goes with it, actually says the rest of the field are there to follow on horseback or on foot or by car, very few people indeed actually witness the death of a fox. +The followers are there for a day out in the countryside, the opportunity to ride or to walk freely over private property with the consent of the landowner. +I agree, sometimes I can tell you I have witnessed a hunt and on a cold, frosty morning when er about forty or fifty horses are thundering across the ploughed field, it's enough to p the power of that sight is enough to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up that's not what we are against the hunter that came to me and says Eh up lad, I won't go drag hunting because I'm sixty years old, I've done it all my life and I like the ride, I like to be there I never see a fox killed that's fact, it's in the video. +So why is it important that the kill has to continue. +You can continue your sport the decent side of the sport without the need for the kill and and we will encourage, my motion actually encourages that, encourages the fox hunting fraternity to look at a way forward, come forward, talk to us. +If you're willing to go down the route to drag hunting I am willing to support any hunt that wants to go down that route and I am sure this authority would. +We can negotiate access to our land and we will be only too pleased to do so but whilst you are killing the fox er and at the end of the day, it is not on. +I've also said to certain factions of the er direct action groups this is the unacceptable face of protest. +Let's put that side of the protest to bed. +If you change now, Leicestershire has a golden opportunity, we are proud of the fox, we are proud of the fox in Leicestershire, our football team, the Foxes,our, our fox cubs our Police emblem, it isn't the hunters, we don't support the hunters at Leicester's Street, we support the foxes and at the end of the day I think there is room for the hunting fraternity to stay as part of the pageantry in Leicestershire. +When we get to the jobs erm side of it the jobs I I I'm accused outside this afternoon of of putting in jeopardy one thousand something jobs erm, this authority got rid of seven hundred jobs, education jobs er only a few months ago and there's many more, something on the region of two thousand jobs will be lost in this authority without a protest. +without protest from a parent, without a protest from a hunter without a protest from er a anyone else, that is a shame, because I tell you what, if you go drag hunting, you can keep the jobs the people are still going to have to shoe the horses traders and people like that are still going to have to produce the carriages to take the horses with them and the only people job jobs are in jeopardy are not the kennel staff it's the terrier men and to be quite honest, ladies and gentlemen, it's the terrier men who have actually ruined your sport, cos of what they get up to in nineteen ninety three is a disgust and at the end of the day your P R has been absolutely wrong and I hope this afternoon that Conservatives and Liberals can join with us and I've got to thank a certain Liberal because he's he's put his head on the block on several occasions on this when we stood on the platform as individuals, not as politicians, as individuals on this and I think that this afternoon we've got a way forward, we can say to the hunt, come and talk you change, we'll give you access. +Thank you Chair. +Have we a seconder. +No. +Thank you. +Did you wish to move an amendment? +Thank you sir. +Can I erm,er move the amendment that is in my name. +This is fact is a debate about personal freedom the freedom of our tenants to choose the quite legal activities that take place on their farms for whatever we may think about the merits and de-merits of angling or shooting fox hunting, these are activities that Parliament has decided are permissible. +Chairman, I believe that this is just the sort of motion that can only bring local government into disrepute It's an abuse of power the council holds lands in the county farms estate for purposes set out in the nineteen sixty agriculture act. +It doesn't hold land in order to allow ideologues to impose their views on our tenants and impose it through a form of nineteenth century landlordism. +If Mr doesn't like field sports he should seek, try to seek to persuade Parliament to ban it he'll have an excellent opportunity because he'll, he's told us that he'll be an MP shortly that's what's happening, that's what's happened in the case of cock fighting and badger baiting it hasn't happened in the case of fox hunting and Mr shouldn't abuse his position as a councillor to dictate to the council's tenants in the way that he proposes. +Here, here. +As well as being the sort of motion that brings local government into disrepute, I also believe that this is the sort of motion that, that displays a lack of tolerance that should concern us all. +This county council has recognised that in Leicestershire we live in a society. +Labour members have been at the forefront in demanding that ethnic communities be free to keep their traditions and cultures yet here we are Labour members trying to prevent countrymen pursuing traditional country sports that have been followed by our forefathers for centuries. +I cannot see the consistency. +Must be your forefathers, not mine. +Yes,w well you said it And I think we are entitled to ask Mr whether he has actually asked the tenants for their views. +Yes. +yes +Has he asked them how this initiative could affect their livelihood. +Yes. +Does he even care. +Yes, he does. +And what did they say, I can tell you what they said, because I happen to have a petition here, signed by a hundred and four county council tenants out of the hundred and six that we have. +Oh well done. +And I will read it as farm tenants of Leicestershire county council we wish to retain the freedom to make the decision ourselves as to whether fox hunting with hounds takes place on our land. +We do not consider drag hunting to be an alternative. +Well done. +At our last meeting we discussed the running of a community centre in the middle of Leicester. +We'll be discussing it this afternoon and Labour members told us and no doubt they'll tell us again that the users of the centre have a democratic right to be consulted about how it was run Don't tenant farmers have the right to be consulted? +Where are their democratic rights Is this the new, I quote, the new era of democratic rights about which was talking yesterday? +One man, one vote. +Chairman. +This is a vindictive and intolerant motion it sets an unfortunate precedent and in this debate about freedom we should support the rights of our tenants to choose. +Have we a seconder. +Served by +Right, at present I have fifteen speakers, plus the two seconders who have reserved the, their right. +We start off with Mr . +Thank you Chairman. +I rise to support the motion moved in Mr name and I have always been opposed to fox hunting full stop. +Hunting and all cruel sports which are totally anachronistic in present day society. +But I wish to relate to the council a particular episode, which I hope will convey something to those people who are perhaps still wavering erm, and whilst we all have principle stands on issues it behoves us as members to consider the views of our constituents and the sorts of things that take place in our wards. +And I remind this council of something I said a few years ago of an incident, incident concerning the Atherstone hunt in my ward where the hounds attacked the dogs of, a couple of dogs of a constituent of mine in his back garden totally uncontrolled, they were running amuck right across land in Ellistown this is nothing the hunt could do nothing the hunt tried to do they were too busy off still dashing ahead chasing the fox or what they thought was a fox. +Meanwhile the owner the person who lived a small terraced property, whose garden backs onto the fields tried to get the hounds several dozen hounds off these two dogs who were being savaged to death and he had a heart attack in the process, Chairman and was hospitalized for several weeks That Chairman is the effect of the hunt on one of my constituents whose job it is for me to defend the rights that I was elected here to defend the rights of my constituents, not to be harassed in this manner. +Of course he was released from hospital and he recovered and of course we we, he, we protested to the hunt and they had the audacity to off to offer him some fifty pounds compensation, which was a adding insult to injury. +So that's how I can speak from direct experience. +I'd also like to say that I've received some twenty nine representations from constituents in my ward all of whom live in my ward who are opposed to fox hunting and have asked me today to vote to ban fox hunting on our land and I've only received two representations from official bodies the video and, and a representation from the British Field Sports Association erm, in favour of fox hunting. +So I think it's time that er we dragged this county council into this century and not into the century, or the centuries of Mr 's forefathers. +And that we actually op adopted a b a modern sensible er, reasonable attitude towards all living creatures and that we do today vote to ban fox hunting it is anachronistic as I said earlier, it is not necessary it actually causes harm, not only does it cause harm to foxes, but at least in one case, which is sufficient for me to continue my support for the ban damage to the people in my area. +I don't want to rehearse the arguments, I'm sure other members will put all the other arguments about cruelty, about the destruction of land and so on. +But I'll finish Chairman, by saying that also I've received complaints from er, a tenant farmer, not one of our tenant farmers, but a p a person who farms who actually has problems because of the pressure that that farmer is under to allow the hunt to go across their land because they're surrounded by by farmers who do allow them. +They don't wish it to happen, but it becomes an impossibility almost for them to stand up to their rights, and Mr talks about rights and no rights is in abstract and we all know how difficult it is then to stand up as a minority when you're surrounded by that majority, but I've had personal representations +They have the right to choose. +From them. +They do not have the right to choose because they, they virtually, the the hunt has always ignored their wishes. +They have to buy and sell their produce in that community and there are restrictions operating on that. +So I think we must today level out the rules on this and we must speak for what is the majority of opinion in this country, by every single opinion poll that's been conducted, and that is Chairman to vote to ban fox hunting on our land. +Thank you. +Thank you Mr . +Mr . +Thank you Chairman. +Er, Mr said this is a debate about personal freedom. +Actually it is a debate about personal conscience Last night I had one of those phone calls that we've all been getting erm the guy on the other end apologised for not being one of my constituents erm, I said it probably wasn't his fault. +He went on to said he wanted to talk about the hunting debate, erm, it occurred to me to wonder why they couldn't find anyone in Stonygate in favour of hunting, I mean perhaps there aren't any people in Stonygate in favour of hunting. +I certainly have not received any communication from any individual in my ward in favour of hunting. +I've received a number against. +He asked me whether I was a country person I asked what the qualifications were he said country born and bred, well I was born in Liverpool spent my childhood and early adolescence in rural Nottinghamshire, moved to Highfields, emigrated to the West Indies and now live in sub rural Blavey so I don't know whether I qualify as a country person or not, but I'd like to bet that I've milked more cows by hand than he has if that's any qualification. +The conversation ranged widely through wildlife management, the history of the landscape and of hunting and he was on very shaky ground there I can tell you control of pests, he likened a farmer killing a rat with a dog, to the whole panoply of fox hunting. +As this conversation continued over an extended period, I was waiting to go out to dinner, erm it became apparent that he hadn't understood my position it was apparent again, outside earlier today, that people do not understand the position that people like me take. +I tried to make it clear at an early stage my petition is a simple, straightforward one not involved with wildlife management,history or anything else like that, I simply believe that killing animals for fun is morally wrong. +Last Saturday night Channel four show showed Sex, lies and videotape well, we got the lies and the video tape, I'd like to know what happened to the sex. +People keep writing letters to the Mercury saying how can we afford to spend time and money debating this, well they can afford the time and the money employing out of work newsreaders to produce videos and writers and photographers to produce their glossy magazines, their glossy leaflets I didn't need the R S P C A or the League to tell me that er, the fox photo, this fox photo was a fake, I mean that's obvious to anybody I didn't need them to tell me that the video was suspect, that too is obvious. +Perhaps the most interesting thing about this video tape is the involvement of loony er, who's espoused every cause known to human kind. +Whether they had any merit or not. +Most recent of course, is euthanasia it doesn't draw the line at killing foxes I had this terrible vision in the early hours this morning,of Ron closing all our elderly persons' homes, pushing all the old people out onto the street and the hunt with at its head hunting them down the countryside. +Look, it's alright to have a bit of fun with this, but the matter is deadly serious and I use the word deadly advisedly. +What it comes down to is do we, or do we not approve of killing animals for fun do we approve of allowing a pack of dogs to hunt an animal to its death. +If the answer's no we do not approve then it's up to us, the onus is on us to do whatever we can, wherever we have any control to prevent it happening. +Let us today do what our consciences demand and vote to stop this cruelty in just one small corner of this county. +Mr +Thank you Chair. +I will be voting for the motion and I will be voting against the amendment. +I'd like to start before I explain that, just to refer to a few comments that Mr made. +Mr made a comment about Moats and Highfield. +I find this a little strange since he was quite happy to support us when my colleague and I said that there was a greater good to be considered and that people had issues that had to be raised in that area above and beyond the local community. +So we did suggest and I did believe your party to support erm, a process where we did consult with local people but we also took other factors into consideration. +So I hope today you will take wider factors into consideration as well. +The other one, the other one that I find interesting is I hope Mr will take his comments back to John , because John 's quite happy, I applaud him for once, it's about the only thing I do applaud John for,erm, but John 's quite happy to turn round to Norway and say forget your centuries old traditions of killing whales. +Killing whales is not a thing that you should go round doing and and yet John 's quite happy to do that and I support John in in that approach. +I'd like to address the reasons why I will be voting for this motion today. +It's often put that hunting is good for the countryside that it's about controlling foxes the scientific evidence rather puts that to pay the scientific evidence certainly indicates that fox hunting makes very little difference to control of foxes in the countryside and there is some evidence to suggest that fox hunting actually encourages more foxes to breed and that we end up with more foxes, so it seems to be self defeating in that respect. +There is of course the argument about the maintenance of the countryside and that the countryside only looks the way it does, because of the fox hunting. +I think there are a lot of other factors that affect the countryside as we all well know. +The way we farm. +The nature of erm, subsidies from Europe and all others, other factors. +I think this argument's about the benefit of the countryside is somewhat debatable to say the least And these arguments that are put about why we shouldn't ban fox hunts because of all the benefits and the tradition are exactly the same arguments that were put about otters and about badgers and about other sports that we have, that we no longer consider satisfactory and have opposed. +From my point of view, one of the most powerful arguments that needs to be addressed is the argument about individual freedom and this is always important to me about, if you're going to take an action that limits somebody's freedom, you damn well have to have a good reason for it. +There is no legislation to ban fox hunting yet. +I'm quite sure that it will not be long before we see that happen. +What we do have and have had for a long time in this country is an acceptance within our law and an acceptance within our definitions of freedom that there are responsibilities with freedom and those responsibilities in this particular case, we have long accepted the argument in this country, maybe not as much as erm, well more in fact than some of our colleagues abroad and maybe they could learn from us from this, but it is not acceptable to have the freedom to be unnecessarily cruel and in fox hunting we have a sport that is unnecessarily cruel, there are ways in which you can deal with rogue foxes, there are ways in which you can actually ensure that the fox community does not destroy the whole, er farming countryside. +But fox hunting doesn't address that. +Fox hunting falls purely and simply on the side of unnecessary cruelty. +Freedom, because there is not the freedom here. +I might suggest the other point, now I actually represent a city ward so I'm sure I'll hear the baying of the hounds that say why am I getting up and speaking. +Well actually people in my area do have a concern about this, also though I was brought up in my teens at least within a rural area and I know full well that to hold certain views even those of the majority within rural areas, are not necessarily easily expressed and I have today been told of yet another example of this being the case. +Where somebody goes to a public meeting and doesn't say +Near time. +anything but just listens and what happens, what happens to that, the vets that person's husband's livelihood is threatened, why are they threatened? +They are threatened because the hunt turns round and uses its power over its tenants to force people to withdraw their, their. +Time. +Thank you. +Thank you. +When. +I, I said near time, I advising people it's nearly time, when it is time they will most certainly know and emphatically it's time. +So when the first warning, it's near time. +Thank you. +Next speaker Mr . +Thank you Chairman. +Erm, I want to er support er the amendment moved by er, erm, Mr and er erm I want to oppose the motion erm since people are tending to describe their, their background in respect of fox hunting. +May I say that er, I've lived for nearly thirty years er, in Oakham which is in the er, in the centre of er fox hunting country. +I've er, thank you, I've never seen a fox hunt erm I've er I think once er, once I got along to Cutts Close where the Boxing Day meet occurs and I can well accept that this Boxing Day meet draws a larger crowd of people from Oakham than any other activity through the year. +So I don't speak really as a committed fox hunt or anti fox hunter er I speak erm,after a consideration of the matter er that that what have at issue here is er, the, the right of the tenant. +If a man is paying his rent to his landlord he surely has the right to use er the land he is paying for and in the, in that matter of using it, surely is included the, the sporting right. +erm. +Hunting, let me remind those on the other side here, is still a lawful activity it's no good saying, ah, well Parliament's gonna pass an act against it soon. +It may well pass an act against it soon, it may well be that a lot of people from over there will get elected and you'll get your bill, but then again it may not. +Yes, yes +Surely, in this country we have to obey the laws that are there, not the laws that are going some day to be passed. +Sunday trading +Tenants have, let me, let's stick with the motion shall we. +The tenant has surely a right to carry out this lawful activity. +Drag hunting's been mentioned from the tenant's point of view er, drag hunting doesn't control the fox and one of the reasons why the er, tenant er, allows fox hunting is that the, the fox is controlled by it. +It's er,surely wishful thinking to assume that sweep away fox hunting, they're all gonna go drag hunting and all those jobs'll be saved. +That's a fairly tenuous er sort of platform to get rid of those er hunting jobs and I'd've thought that er, a party whose leader Mr saw him, was it yesterday?,proclaiming the importance of er protecting employment and combating unemployment. +Well surely some of that might filter down to this chamber. +Let's not take chances er unnecessarily with the right, er wi with the e employment er of those in, in the hunting industry as it were. +I don't think er Chairman, this, this county council is, is competent to do away with hunting. +That, that I, I say is reserved for Parliament. +er,Can I enter a plea for tolerance, if in a democracy it's very easy to get steamed up about things you don't like, things you find disgusting and revolting but if everyone is going to come forward, have banned the activity they don't like then we're going to live, it may be a democracy, but it's going to be a narrowed, er and intolerant society in which we live. +Finally er, Chairman. +My history books told me about those wicked aristocrats of the nineteenth century, they used their position as landlords to force their tenants to, to vote in a certain way, to force their tenants in other words to take up a particular position on a matter of controversy. +Near time. +I'm interested, thank you, I'm interested to notice that this nineteenth century attitude is being repeated now by er, our friends over there in the Labour party, erm and I must say, that really confirm what I've always thought that a lot of their attitudes and their mental furniture do in fact belong to that century. +Er, Chairman I'd like to er, erm, oppose the motion and support the amendment. +Here, here. +Mr +Thank you Chair. +I would like to support the motion put in the name of Mr and I would like to speak against the amendment. +I've heard what's Mr has to say. +It was good. +Yes, very good. +You may think it's a fun having a blood game on your hand, you may think that your class used to also enjoy slavery two hundred years ago. +Here, here, +Listen, listen so you may have a right to defend at any cost which you think is privileged society the fact of the matter is people out there I received twenty seven letters in support against the fox hunting I did not receive a single letter asking me to support the fox hunting. +Always against fox hunting, why is that? +And it wasn't even from my constituency it was widely from the Leicestershire and coming back to our, our friend there Doctor er , I don't know what was the name there when he mentioned about what's the name? +It it's er really put me off the track there, I'm sorry I. +You're losing time. +I was coming back to the fox hunting here, when it's mentioned sorry about that Chair. +Men ,men , mentioned here by our friend, that Leicestershire has got no business to discuss about fox hunting, we are not elusive, there are other county councils who have banned fox hunting on their land, so do not make this as a sacrosanct and or something that Leicestershire are doing, they are not doing first, there are so many other county councils in this country and for your information, I was listening to radio four few days ago, even in Pakistan, a third world country, is banning hunting in their country, we should be ashamed of ourselves here to discuss, I agree with Councillor when the discussion start and he said move for the ward, because the logical thing was to move for the wards rather than discuss, if we all believe that this is horrible, acrimonious and abhorrent in today's day and age, as the slavery was abhorred two hundred years ago. +So I move that we support the motion and speak against amendment. +Thank you. +Mr +Thank you er . +Can I first of all congratulate my colleague Graham, Graham on his measured speech, he's certainly given us many things to, to think about and things that should be investigated. +Can I also say really I agree with Martin when he said erm, and has been saying for at least six months that surely we have more important things to, to talk about than, than this and I'm sorry for Martin that he had to erm, give in really and put this I was the movement of the amendment in January ninety two erm,which confirmed that the rights of tenants and old occupiers of land in county council ownership to er allow or stop fox hunting over land in their care. +That was successful there er, er on that occasion and er of course I hope it, it will be successful again this afternoon. +At that time, we, we received a petition from the tenants erm very much along the lines of the one that erm erm, er Mr has read out, at that time there was a petition from a hundred and eight county council tenants and one hundred and five of them in fact signed it and they, they asked for it to be allowed to keep the erm to have the freedom to decide whether or not hunting takes place. +I think erm it is worth saying Chairman, it hasn't been mentioned yet, er that in fact we're talking about the the tenant farmers and their livelihood. +Most of the tenant farmers i in this county I believe are dairy farmers and in fact they have their life savings tied up in their stock. +They, they know what they have to do to protect that stock, to protect their life's interests and they, and they know they don't need to be told really by any officer here who are not in that not, not in that game, what they have to do that's what they're asking us to do and they certainly asked us to do that on the erm, on the tour of county farms that we had only, only a few weeks ago. +I think it's also worth just bearing in mind that we're talking about only one percent of the erm of the farmed land i in this county, we're not talking about banning hunting in in er in Leicestershire,we're talking about what we're saying on one percent there are tens of thousand of fields in in this county nothing can change overnight, even if this er motion goes through because the tenants will still have the rights to decide, it's only when you actually start getting to new tenancy agreements that you will be in a position if you wish,to start to change things and therefore I suppose at the end of erm, at the end of five years you might have a hundred or two hundred fields on which this ban will apply but you will still have tens of thousand of fields on which the, the hunt will still be, the hunts in this county will still be free to, erm, to operate. +I think we have to try and keep this in in proportion, we are really into a we are really into a gesture here an important gesture possibly, but nothing is going to change overnight and in fact very little will happen erm, for years, for years to come. +I, I, do not understand Chairman that reading this motion, I've been trying to think about it, how on earth this is going to be monitored. +How on earth are you going to how on earth are you going to put a a sign on certain fields that the hunt shall not pass? +Are you going to say hunters will be prosecuted or something? +Or are you going to electrify the, these fields? +Are you going to have mounted policemen following the hunt round to ensure that they only steer their course along certain ways? +Are you going to have stationary policemen guarding fields to ensure that only the fox can enter and not the, and not the hounds? +Are you going to have countywide monitoring? +Are we going to have er, erm, are we going to have some kind of reporting system, so that if a hunt actually enters erm, one of our fields, we're going to start denouncing tenants and have them hauled up in front of a disciplinary committee?. +There are all kinds of questions that this matter raises in my mind which haven't been addressed. +I only repeat what I said last time Chairman that if the, that if people do not understand the management of the countryside, that they leave it well alone. +Here, here. +Mr . +Thank you Mr Chairman. +In all probability not a single fox will live or die as a consequence of any vote we take this afternoon. +As Mr pointed out in outline,our county estate of some eight thousand acres of which only three quarters or roughly six thousand acres is suitable for hunting, is less than one percent of the county's acreage of six hundred and fifty thousand. +If hunting were banned on all of that it would only have a small marginal effect but we can as Mr said only ban hunting on land we both own and control, land in hand, that actually totals a hundred and fifty eight acres, slightly smaller than Victoria Park but that includes road, bridleways, land with no access, S S S Is, Sites of Special Scientific Interest, land awaiting disposal the land capable of being hunted and in hand totals fifty two acres about as much of Victoria Park as I can see from my front window. +If you have the country parks and already there is no hunting on those parts open to the public there's just about another hundred acres, that's the Victoria Park or thereabouts in total. +But that's not the end of it the Director of Property has very kindly plotted where this land is and I will show you the plan, the yellow spots are the land in hand. +If the map of Leicestershire were a face it would have a few small pimples on its chin and they would take fifty years to come to a head. +If you draw a line from Loughborough down the A six, through the city of Leicester and on to Market Harborough to the east of that line, in that part of the county where most of the hunting takes place, there is one small piece of land, less than one acre, somewhere near Thorpe Satchfield which we actually control. +As I said, it would take fifty years before any decision we reach here, even made an impression on the one percent of land we do own. +So, those who do not support hunting will do nothing practical to protect foxes, if they vote for this motion today in that respect it is and I suggest the people who move it know that it is, nothing but sanctimonious twaddle. +They would be voting to divert attention from the one place where the merits or otherwise of fox hunting should be decided and considered amongst M Ps, you will note amongst MPs not by government, this is a matter for a free vote of conscience. +About the only decent argument I've heard on this, I have to say that because it was my daughter who advanced it, about the only decent argument I have heard is the one about badger baiting where she said to me but badger baiting is not allowed on your land and that is the point precisely that Mr made, it is not allowed because that is the law of the land and that is where decisions about the permission or otherwise of fox hunting should be made. +This is an issue of individual conscience of M Ps. +Whatever is happening elsewhere there is not today, there is no one man one, one man one vote here. +We can all watch for the Labour block vote at the end of this debate as a matter of principle, I could never vote in support of the Labour whip. +So this debate is not about saving foxes, it will achieve nothing for animal welfare it is not about the merits or otherwise of fox hunting, from which it diverts attention, it is about the county council seeking to make hollow gestures against their tenants' rights. +Gestures which are not within the normal scope of the private landlord, gestures of a political kind that could be a dangerous precedence for other political and possibly improper objectives in the future. +That is why I will support the amendment and if that fails +Near time. +I shall play no further part in this debate which should not be taking place. +It can have no practical effect and will only divert attention from where it should be pressed by those who feel strongly about it. +I do hope Mr Chairman that those members who oppose fox hunting will feel that they should do the same. +Thank you. +Mr . +Thank you Chair. +Erm first of all I would like to make the point that er it's typical of our friends over this side to arrange an ethic dimension when they were er opposing their amendment, it confuses the issue, it is racist and shouldn't occur. +As a Labour councillor of a rural part of Leicestershire, a very beautiful po part of rural Leicestershire erm I've taken a straw poll amongst my farming friends and er when I talk about fox hunting they er roll and shrug their shoulders, there's no problem and if fox hunting is er part of the culling process, they don't have a problem. +They don't have a problem at all it doesn't seem to er be part of their daily lives er, that said I do have a farmer of my acquaintance, when I say my acquaintance he happens to be my son-in-law. +He er, is a sheep farmer and er, two or three years ago the Atherstone passed through his land and er ran amuck amongst his flock and he lost actually three in lamb ewes who drowned in a local river. +At the same time the hunt passed further on and his wife, my daughter,er had two horses which bolted in a field and leapt the farm gate and er, took off and were caught two miles away. +That's the other side of fox hunting, which I think we don't hear. +When they complained to the hunt er, the Master brought er a leg of pork round, not a leg of lamb I might add, a leg of pork to er, appease them er one other point, ooh yeah, there was, is one other point actually, when my daughter challenged the hunt she was appalled by the arrogance of these pink coated hooray Henrys who totally ignored her plight and er just carried on with whatever they wished to do. +One other point Mr Chair, if I could crave your indulgence you will er, I think you all know that Leicester City Football Club are playing this evening at Middlesbrough. +I hope you'll soon be done. +and +that, that, as a result of that we could be, Leicester City could be at the top of the first division, I know the Chairman follows the Philbert Street Foxes, I would hope that this chamber will support the Leicestershire foxes when it's time to take our vote. +Thank you. +Mr . +Er, Mr Chairman, I'd like to make some observations. +I'd like to make the observations because I'm of the opinion that most members came into this chamber this afternoon with their minds completely and utterly made up and there is very little that we can do in this chamber this afternoon to change people's minds. +So they are observations and it is my feeling that this motion has taken on significantly more importance than its content or indeed its effect. +I only wish and I mean this very sincerely I only wish we could spend as much time and as often as is spent discussing fox hunting on the county's homeless, on abused children, on the handicapped, on the increasing crime and on unemployment and I only wish that the media and the public and even members of this council would take as much notice of that as they do about this debate on fox hunting. +I am also concerned that after this debate there will be no winners not even the fox, for it will be killed it will be killed in some way or another and the feelings that are left between the two differing sides will harbour grudges and resentment for many months to come and I'd like to also bearing in mind the comments that were made by Councillor ask how committed the people who have proposed this mo motion are against barbaric sport. +I regard barbaric sport, not only perhaps as fox hunting but also such things as boxing, where two people, two individuals do their best to hit the life out of the other and it is watched by thousands of people. +Now the Labour party control the city council, may I say this, that if your feelings are against barbaric sport as much as that, why don't you use your contr , your controlling power on the city council and then ban boxing in all the city establishments, then you will show me that you mean what you are saying and that you are not just using the present position of this council for a political measure and political gain and I'd like to also ask what this has cost the council what this has cost could be thousands. +The very meeting itself is thousands of pounds, the time we have spent on it is thousands of pounds. +Many times in this council when we've been discussing more important points, when we've been discussing the needs of people who have real needs, we have not been able to have our priority we have not been able to have our priority because we could not afford it. +Can we afford not only the debate today but can we afford it in another eighteen months? +I don't think so I believe that the hunting fraternity is not blameless and indeed the, all their arguments are not quite correct in every sense but I firmly believe that there are more important matters for this council to to debate and spend its time and money on. +Thank you. +Chairman, the last speech was really explaining what I want to get over the fact that so many people want to talk on the issue and to complicate the issue. +The debate on fox hunting has become unnecessarily complex and that can only suit the pro hunters because the basic objections to hunting are obscured. +The more complicated you make the issues, the more the basic objections become obscured. +The fact is that any so called sport which involves the exhaustion, distress and eventual death of an animal has got to be obscene in the eyes of any human being. +The county council has not got the power to ban fox hunting in total it can only ban it on the land which it owns or controls and that's what that motion seeks to do today. +On the one hand we have the hunting fraternity saying that because they rarely catch and kill foxes, some say a two to three percent efficiency rate, er that it's not cruel yet on the other hand, they say that it's the most efficient and humane way to control the fox population. +They can't have it both ways. +I urge members, Chairman, not to hide behind this shabby amendment but to vote according to their consciences and their beliefs and to vote according to the views of eighty percent of the population that we represent and I urge other members to be as brief. +Mrs +Thank you Chairman. +Shabby amendment, come off it +Really shabby amendment, agree? +No +Really shabby +Will you let the lady speak please, you've had your turn. +Mrs would you like to speak. +Thank you Chairman. +Once again we meet to debate and vote on this highly emotive subject and it has always almost, it has already been apparent that it is very emotional. +Barely eighteen months ago after the last time, what are we doing? +I see my job as a county councillor as one of running the county council so that it delivers services to the people cost effectively and efficiently. +Not telling some of the people in Leicestershire how to run their lives. +Once again we see the Labour group in their true colours. +Yes red. +They are now the largest party in county hall but instead of, try +It's no good congratulating yourself until you've actually achieved something primarily, you are address +Chairman, instead of primarily addressing the issues of overspending on the education budget and the future of the elderly persons' homes and also the securing of a secure unit these are pushed into second place when the Labour group can see the opportunity of headline grabbing and satisfying their overriding need to tell everyone how to live. +The country dwellers are saying leave us alone to run our own lives, after all when it comes to funding they are left to run their own lives anyway. +Witness a paltry hundred thousand pounds for a new village hall, compared with the one million pounds on the Highfields Community Centre. +Here, here. +I hate hunting. +I hate angling just because the fish doesn't scream it doesn't mean the hook didn't hurt when it was inserted and then taken out when the fish is thrown back into the water because it isn't big enough. +People in the know say that the animal kingdom is cruel. +But would, should we compound the issue by being cruel to the animal kingdom? +But what I hate above all is this constant sanctimonious attitude of the socialists that they think they know best and their continuous craving to create a nanny state. +I cannot vote for the banning of fox hunting on county council land as I see this as another attempt to limit freedom of choice. +The county council tenant must be left to manage his business and land as he sees fit and this includes his individual conscious decision as to whether to allow fox hunting across his land. +Chairman, I support Mr 's amendment and finally I would like to say that there are foxes alive and well in suburban Bristol in my parent's garden. +Thank you Chairman. +Mr . +Chairman, erm, as I understand it this afternoon is, is a free vote and I, for that reason end there, I hope that persuade any waverers er one way, erm, at the moment we've got agreements with tenants and it's up to them to decide what to do with their land. +We don't inter interfere with that and I don't think we should either. +Those arrangements or agreements with, with us are within the law and that they're between consenting adults, I don't know what else they're gonna think of banning. +Erm, it's a matter of choice a free choice within the present laws of this country er, even more important perhaps than that, that it really is up to the hunts to convince those farmers that the, that the farmers want them. +I do ask any of you that are wavering to support the amendment which leaves the tenants with the right to manage their holdings, how they like and not to interfere with those rights. +Here, here. +I will observe, Chairman, that there are reasonable and honourable and relatively well meaning people who truly believe that they have a natural right to hunt down foxes with dogs indeed to call the dogs hounds and believe that nobody has the right to interfere with their pleasures er,i in press they would no doubt speak of the right of free born Englishmen to do what they like but I'd like them to consider Chairman,views of what it is right and proper for human beings to do have changed, as readers of John 's diaries will recall, barely three hundred years ago, he saw a woman being burned to death er in London for murdering her husband and people watched and no doubt thought that it was the right of free born Englishmen to enjoy the spectacle. +Not many lives ago there were public hangings in this country and people certainly thought it was their right to watch and enjoy in fact, they even paid for seats to see public hangings, if they could afford to and as Mr has pointed out, er it 's not long ago er that bear baiting and badger baiting and cock fighting were seen as right and proper and no doubt spoken of as rights of free born Englishmen. +Now, they would be thought obscene public perception has changed and understood that animals are sentient beings and that we demean our humanity if we are cruel to them or permit cruelty. +I can't believe knowing er some of the people who do hunt, that their motive is actually that they want to see a fox torn to pieces. +I believe the motive is in fact the enjoyment of riding a good horse fast over open country and I can understand that. +They don't have to hunt foxes to do that the motion, the main motion not the amendment suggests drag hunting er they could, there there my, I think it means proper drag hunting not one er to previously er l l laid out er objectives er they could race each other, they can have treasure hunts, er there are plenty of ways in which they could enjoy riding. +If their motive actually is er to enjoy seeing a fox torn to pieces er then I suggest to them er that is unbearable cruel there are of course objections to er this motion and to its further extension the banning of fox hunting altogether. +We are told that foxes are vermin and it is necessary to hunt them down. +Mr Chairman, if decent people find it necessary er to kill animals they believe be vermin they don't dress up in red coats and call them pink and er charge er, er, er, about er drinking st stirrup cups and tooting horns, er they go out and kill the vermin, it's a necessary job that has to be done and of course, er there are many ways in which foxes could be killed without cruelty if it is necessary to kill them. +As a matter of fact, the hunt is a very ineffectual way of controlling foxes, er they record the number they kill and it's very, very few, a tiny percentage of the number of foxes there are in the countryside clever foxes er, as indeed I think Mrs mentioned, live in towns nowadays er, but there are still quite a lot in the countryside fortunately and they will survive er, though zoologists tell us er that er by instinct er they see that their numbers are controlled. +Another objection is that jobs will be lost and certainly that would be a serious objection but it's a speechless one, of course, people who can afford it will still ride and will still employ the same people who are now hunt servants er to look after their horses and themselves and those who can't afford horses will continue no doubt to enjoy the spectacle er, that argument doesn't hold water and the other objection of course er is that er it would mean the hounds were killed, but since I understand er hunting people kill their hounds anyway when they get too old to keep up, er I think er we can dismiss that argument and leave it to them er to see that the hounds are decently dealt with. +Mr , main argument of course er was er wholly spacious er with that proposed in the main motion would not stop any activities which are the proper aim of the agriculture act. +It's true I think er as Mr said at some length er that er this measure would not prevent hunting in in most of the area in which it it takes place, through plenty of it happens of course well to the West of the A six er perhaps it might even get out there from time to time but our duty clearly is to see er that the right thing is done in the territory which is our responsibility and our other responsibility is surely to set an example of decent humanity. +I invite er Mr and his supporters to get out of the age of Dickens and into the twentieth century. +Well done. +Mr +Yes, thank you Chair. +er, erm, speaking in favour of the motion against the amendment, quite strongly against the amendment because I don't believe it moves that debate any further and the debate, as a number of speakers have said, will go on beyond this chamber, Chair. +I hope +I am not a chair, this is the chair, I'm the Chairman please. +My apology Chairman. +My apology, your prerogative. +Chairman, the motion before us today if passed, will act as a lever a lever against the weight which is rolling inextricably forwards. +Parliament will debate this issue and I'm quite sure as a number of people are, that Parliament will vote in favour of a ban. +Can I, for the benefit of members opposite who, who always seem to believe that people on this side of the chamber are townies and don't know anything about anything other than street lighting for the benefit of members opposite and for the public gallery outside, can I say that in my younger days, a million years ago, I rode with hunt. +Ooh, ooh. +I followed on foot, by car and by horse, I enjoyed it. +But like a number of other people before me I turned and I turned in response to totally unnecessary violence. +Like speakers before me this afternoon Chairman, I object to barbarism. +I object to the attitude that we have a right to kill to dispose of. +The argument has been made clearly and repeatedly that fox fox hunting with hounds is not effective. +Farmers themselves will say there are better ways of controlling fox population. +Rubbish. +It might be rubbish, try talking to a farmer occasionally. +Should you have declared an interest Mr ? +Chairman, we are debating a motion which will we are debating a motion this afternoon Chairman which will ban fox hunting on land that we control. +The object of the exercise is to move the debate forward to another place where another group of individuals will also have a free vote and it's quite rightly been said. +I used to be a hunt supporter, I used to be a hunt follower I gave up because I object to an attitude of a society of people that life is disposable having seen wounded fox hounds and that is the proper term having seen wounded fox hounds despatched with a revolver because they've got a broken leg having charged full pelt across a public road and hit a motor car coming the other way and fortunately not injured the occupants of the motor car having seen the damage that a pack of hounds in full cry can do to land that they are not entitled to be upon because fox hounds can't read. +They don't know which side of the road they're supposed to be, all they know is they are bred and trained to chase. +Having seen the damage that a pack of hounds will do to domestic pets it far outweighs in my mind Chairman, any damage that a fox can do, that a fox hound can stop them doing. +There are methods available to control foxes. +The age old argument about the damage that a fox does in a hen coup is clearly un unfounded +A farmer who allows a fox to get into his hen coup deserves everything he gets. +Chairman as a former supporter of fox hounds I have to say I am no longer a supporter of fox hounds, I would see the law of this land used to ban hunting with hounds and I support the motion. +Thank you Chair. +Mr Bernard +First of all I'm surprised at the outburst that was given to us by Mr I would regard as my er yahabeebee and sadiki if you wish er, but he mentioned in fact the er, what used to be barbaric ac , barbaric er practice in er Pakistan. +I wish he could use his Saudi influences to prevent the barbaric practice of decapitation of human beings which takes place every Friday in the square at Riyadh in Saudi Arabia. +Now the other thing I would say, I support in fact Mr amendment and I oppose the motion. +Destruction of vermin on county council owned farms is within the remit of the tenant farmer. +Also I express surprise at the Labour leader's volte face a short while ago in the press he reported that he had more important matters to think about, or discuss insofar as fox fox hunting was concerned or words to that effect. +To its enthusiasts hunting and especially fox hunting is more than a sport it is a national institution enjoyed equally by all countrymen and I emphasis all countrymen. +Institutions enjoyed equally by all countrymen, I again emphasise that in the hunting field social distinctions do not exist and those who follow houn hounds start equals receiving consideration exclusively through their own merits. +However, what is the lynchpin as I see it, of the debate today is the deprivation of civil liberties as proposed by the Labour group. +All be it a tenant,whether or no a tenant farmer must have the privilege of deciding who is invited onto his farm. +Also for that matter, a tenant hand, a householder has the rights to invite who he wishes into his own house, this one sided dictatorial attitude of the Labour group to determine who can, who cannot enter his home is er contrary to my philosophy anyway Chairman. +Thank you. +Mr +Unlike Mr I have always found fox hunting distasteful, I have never participated in it, I have never followed it and I don't think that I I ever want to and er, I have I am not convinced by either economic or the put forward in its favour. +I shall nevertheless vote against the motion and I shall vote for the amendment although as much as I wished it had happened or,or erm a different proposal to Mr because I don't think it helps your argument when you call your opponents instead of arguing face and er unlike Mr I actually do believe its in subsidiarity and I think we should accept Leicester and Leicester only and what the Leicester hunt will do should be decided here in Leicester, not in Westminster, er any more than the composition of our offices should be, should be decided in Brussels and I believe in subsidiarity. +The reason I shall vote against the motion and for the amendment couldn't have been put more succinctly than it was by Mr , I think Mr made the most pertinent remark that has been made in the debate today, when in opposition to what Mr said about individual freedom he said this is a matter of personal conscience. +This is a matter of personal conscience and what every member in the council chamber today must be aware of, is that there is a vociferous and committed group of people we know that because we've all had a great deal of communication from them and interestingly enough I have and most of the communication I've had has been in favour so victory, people who write must be extremely perceptive in, with er marketing the that's not the point, we all know that there is a committed and vociferous group of people whose consciences do not lead them to the same conclusions as Mr 's conscience and the issue really is, do we in a liberal and democratic society have the right to impose our consciences on those of other people who live in the community and quite clearly and quite determinedly take a different view. +That's the issue. +Now I believe that you test the liberal democracy, not by the ease with which majorities get their way but on the extent to which you accommodate the views of committed minorities and we've lived so long with majority rule, masquerading as democracy, that we've forgotten that that is more akin to dictatorship than anything else. +So for that reason I do not believe that I feeling strongly as I do should im impose my views on others. +This issue comes up time and again for example there is an equally divided community in Britain, a divided position on matters like abortion. +There are some people who say abortion is murder, it should be not allowed +that, that there are others equally we say that we women to determine what happens to their own bodies and their destiny is for them, I respect that view too but in those circumstances you don't resolve problems by the majority whatever it happens to be determining what the minority will do. +You in fact, leave the matter open so that each of us as individuals do what our personal consciences tell us. +I would never hunt, I will also not demand that anybody else hunts and I don't think other people should say to me what I should and what I should not do and I think that's the issue. +Mrs +Thank you Chairman. +Erm, I would like to say at the start. +I don't hunt. +That makes a lot of horses in Leicestershire very happy +What I would say Chairman is that I will defend the right of the tenant farmers to make their own minds up, just as much as I will defend the rights of council house tenants to say what goes on in their houses. +It is the very same thing erm could I say that two people have written to me, two of my constituents and I do agree that that they have a point. +They are asking that I should support the ban on fox hunting. +One is a Mr Fox and the other one's a Mrs Fox, the cards are here if you'd like to see them . +I also Chairman have the easy answer to the control of pests. +Don't vote Labour at the next election. +Right, we've come to the end of the speakers, we now have we now have the. +Wait a minute I'm coming to that. +We now have the right of reply in the er second reserved remarks of Mr er Mayor er Mrs and then finally Mr . +So will you like to come in now Mr . +Not a lot to say Mr Chairman, I think it's all been said one way or the other. +But a few comments which seem to be apposite erm, we don't want to kill animals with cruelty do we not? +What about the Halal meat, in this county where three years ago we had a meeting and they decided that animals that were slaughtered without being stunned with sheer terror, who are allowed to bleed to death because this is what a particular group believed in and we did it. +Er, Mr brought slavery into it, but no one had more slaves than India and the Moguls and what about suttee where widows were burned alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands and still leap and still the system was des er was stopped by the English Just a moment the door was opened by Mr talking about slavery we don't shut it on +harems and eunuchs and all sorts of things. +I also remember Mr at a previous meeting told us we have no right to pontificate on Moat Centre because we didn't live there +but you've got every right to pontificate on the on the hunting even though you don't live there er, Mr I dunno, barbarism, is this, is this for the Labour a free vote. +I don't think the Labour'd know a free vote if it bit him on the leg. +I accept the Liberal's is and so's the Conservative, but I'd be interested to know whether anyone allows a free vote ever in the Liberal party. +Mr when he proposed this er amendment said precisely what it was. +We are not talking about the merits and de-merits of fox hunting we are not talking whether they die slowly or fast or what should be done. +We are talking here about the rights of the tenant farmers to use the land which they have from you and what do you suggest that it be done? +At the moment the tenant has the right to ban any fox hunting from his f er er land if he wants to. +That of course will go and what's more there's going to be some drag hunting on his land of which he will not be consulted because if you had to negotiate with organisations for controlled access to its land for the use of drag hunting. +I presume a committee here will decide and sit as to which land shall have dag, drag hunting and the er the land the tenant will have no rights in that at all and if you're thinking you can control horses that are taking part in a drag hunt any more than you can control horses taking part in a fox hunt, you've got to have another think. +You'll still have the same trouble. +You are taking rights away and you are giving them no consultation at all. +This says quite clearly what Mr moves. +There's one person, group of people not mentioned in his amendment in his proposition and that is the tenant farmers. +Can he remember Moat Centre? +Can you remember we had a judicial review? +He went there and back and do nothing to the people bol er er involved, being consulted and we've had that going on for two years no consultation here has taken place with the people who it affects and there's nothing in your motion to say it will. +I think this ought to be thrown out not necessarily on the rights or wrongs of fox hunting but on a procedural thing that you've brought about where a dictatorial attitude is brought about by the Labour party that have the right apparently to say exactly what'll happen on someone else's land. +Now if you want to do this in a proper way, then you do it in a proper way. +I don't mind if you write to all the tenants and say please don't have foxes on your land, we don't like it. +That's alright. +But you're not right for you t start passing laws, which any case you can't adhere to until you have new er er tenancy, you can't enforce them. +I don't know whether it makes any difference for the price you will get in the land, for the land, from a tenant, if you restrict his rights to use it. +Don't forget that in his tenancy agreement, he has a duty to control pests, which includes foxes. +You put that in his deed but the way that most of them do it through foxing through, through er hunting, you're taking away from them. +This is a whole of a mish-mash, I think we ought to go back to what we did in nineteen ninety two, its the twenty ninth of January and to confer the rights of tenants and other occupiers of land to allow or stop fox hunting or any other hunting over land in their care and least trust some people instead of this business of we know best. +This is not about democracy, this is dictatorship, your trying to practice over a minority of people in this county. +Here, here +please. +Er, the debate this after er this afternoon has centred on adult views of fox hunting. +Well I'd like to say that it's not only adults who have an interest in this subject and have been watching what the county council is going to do about it. +At the weekend I received a letter and a petition from a young girl called Frances aged nine years old and it brought it home to me that it isn't an adult centred er erm issue, that it's one for everybody who lives in Leicestershire. +Unfortunately it was received too late to go through the formal council procedure, but I do hope that you allow me to hand it to the council secretary later who it is addressed to. +The letter is short and I would like to read it. +It starts Dear county secretary. +I am writing to you on my views of fox hunting. +I was against this sport all along, but it is only now that I have read the page in the Leicester Mercury that I feel bold enough to speak out to you. +Sport I agree, can be played, but I don't call fox hunting or cub hunting a sport. +It is an inhuman, heartless massacre a murder, an unasked for and undeserved murder, a murder of innocent, lively, living, intelligent foxes. +We have a fox that lives near us and I have spent many a night and a morning watching it frolicking and jumping about and it breaks my heart to think that many of its kind are suffering death at its worst. +Imagine if you were a vixen scared and frightened, seeing her cubs destroyed. +Many suffer this way yet some people don't care. +Some people like and enjoy it. +There are jobs around that don't involve animals. +Now I talk fox hunting. +Think it and dream it. +In my mind I won't rest till I know that I have done something, no matter how small to bring this ban closer to a stop. +I look forward to hearing your opinion on this matter. +Signed Frances, aged nine. +Nine +And this child. +That's right and that's a credit to the education system of Leicestershire. +Here, here +And Frances has also collected a petition of sixty four children at her school which I will also hand over to the county secretary. +I think it's very clear that its fox hunting should be banned in Leicestershire. +I support the motion of Councillor and Councillor . +Thank you Chair. +Er, before I call Mr can I compliment the council on the way that this debate has gone. +A lot of people anticipated a lot of ill feel , well a lot of ill feeling being expressed. +Thank you for not doing that. +Thank you for the complimentary way you've acted. +Mr . +That's stumped my reply. +Now I, I won't, I won't go for this vote because at the end of the day I I don't think it'd be er er productive, it'd be counterproductive erm, I do hope that you around the chamber tonight, do look inside and say look if you're fed up with it coming to the council Mr whatever your name is, I forget, the new guy er, it will only come back next year. +Get rid of it now. +Vote for our motion and go for higher places. +Mr +Er, I I do apologise but erm I've never known a fox yet drop a cattle, a stock, er something that big, when, when you said farmers and their cattle, their d mostly dairy farmers and all the rest of it I've never seen a fox do that. +In actual fact I've got a friend and I go potholing with him, we meet, he's a Kendall farmer, he's a a sheep farmer and er, we meet and he says you know what I've got a problem with on my land, not foxes dogs and walkers that haven't got them on the leads and crows at lambing time cos they peck their eyes out and things of that calibre, he says yes, I'll tell you what I'll bet you I've had animals taken by foxes he, he says I probably have, he said but I've not had this kind of unindeighted killing as. + +Well, we should be able to decide before the meeting and make the changes as we go along. +Yes, yes,. +Yes, just how quickly but, and the people that are used to the style of how they're gonna be done. +I think that's Stella's point. +quite straight forward. +So we probably can get another lot well before the +If we're just talking about the niceties of the way these things are laid out, previous set of procedures say things like page one-o-two, page one-o-three etc, and I think that is probably good practice if you can look at a page number and so you know exactly how many pages to expect so, we can probably do that when we re-issue these procedures as well. +Okay, Q P2. +. +Erm, if there are any changes, however minor, if er, could we make a point of re-issuing the procedure, after we've decided a change . +Yes. +Sorry, I haven't quite statement. +If we decide er, at each point of the committee meeting I, I think we should be processing any and suggestion forms that procedure owners have received, in a reasonable time, in order for them to process it before that meeting. +And any changes that we agree in that meeting, can we then re-issue those procedures immediately after the meeting, or as soon as possible after? +In principal, yes. +I, the only problem I have +, it's not between, it's meant to be weeks. +Yeah. +Can you just explain how that would work though 'cos we're now erm, auditing by job, aren't we, and given I don't know the audit timetable I can't visualise the effect this would have but it seems that one could be making a change 'cos a particular, a job's been audited and it effects Q P1, or something one month, and therefore you make changes to it and another job's audited the second, another month, the second month and Q P1 needs changing again, and it, in terms of keeping our staff with us, it will be quite conf , I think it's not terribly practical to keep having constant change. +Right, this is one, this is one of the things which I am not happy about, with the way in which you are running your system at the moment, and that is that you're being totally reactive. +You're waiting for somebody to audit and find something wrong. +If somebody comes up with a suggestion for a change to a procedure, at this meeting, yes you should be looking at what that suggestion for change is but all of you round the table should be thinking, well does that change adversely effect other jobs in our areas and it shouldn't happen that you will get change after change after change. +You should be thinking beforehand, is this really right or isn't it? +At the moment you're cre , you're cor ,, you're correcting your procedures on the basis of auditing and finding out what we're not doing instead of really thinking about them. +Long term, what really +Yes, but isn't that because we had a very, very, very long think about them and this is the first reaction to that long think. +They were as good as we could make them, we felt, and we had a long think. +which is first set of audits, first set of suggestion forms which have come through because a lot,standing order. +I, I think what Richard, what Richard is suggesting is the very sensible way forward in the longer term, whether it makes sense right at this instant is, is another matter. +I do think we've got to bear in mind that when you are looking at a change does it apply to everybody. +Erm, like you had the discussion on the first one and said, well, yes, it's all very well for you and yes it's a great idea for you, but the rest of us don't want it , and I think you've got to do that. +I think that so far as we've got . +Money's our , we have the committee meeting, we agree changes procedures and as soon as possible we re-issue those procedures,monthly issues that . +But there may be good reasons every now and then for not re-issuing er, even though it's agreed what the will be. +I can't quite think what they are but +I think the other possibility to take Stella's point is that if there is a change that's come up because of an audit, where a particular job has been audited and you know that within the next week or so another similar job is being audited, it may make sense to refer it 'til the next meeting, providing you're not deferring it for a long period of time, to compar the results of the two jobs. +And that means looking at the audit schedule out front so that you, you're not . +All that means is a general every month that we'll re-issue some procedures. +Well, yes, but in the long run that it, that won't be, it will only be in the short term, when we're really honing out. +Sorry, I meant monthly was an adequate frequency. +Oh right, no more frequently than monthly. +Right. +Yes. +Could we have a copy of the audit time, please. +. Have you got one there? +Yeah. +Good. +Let's move on then to Q P2. +Right. +Were any of your extra's about Q P2, Si? +Yes, one of them is. +Erm, start from the beginning. +There's the quiff from Peter, which is pointing out that the letter of confirmation that we reference to because it was a repeat, so reasonably enough they're not going through all the assumptions , and he also is saying that the er, letters of confirmation that is a repeat of the previous job. +Erm, a suggestion from Richard's attached. +There's a suggestion here from Sarah. +The application states that this procedure does not cover costings based on rate cards. +We use rate cards in that excess but we still comply with the procedure which . +It's perfectly reasonable to follow the procedure book and the procedure. +Are there any other rate cards that might be excluded? +Well no, there's the T G I rate cards but then this doesn't apply to T G I. +But that's on computer? +Yeah, yeah. +Perhaps there's no need to +'Cos the thing about rate cards is that if the rate card is there you don't have to go and get special authorisations or , you quote them the rate card. +Well, we have the same guidelines as . +Okay. +You wanna remove it? +But you don't have a costing, you do have a costing quote form. +Costing quote form. +Do you have all of these other things. +It, it's a case of what she's letting herself in for if we strike this out. +Maybe she's not covered by this in effect. +Well, I mean, we have a different costing form but we have costing forms. +Where else do we have rate, rate cards, to rate card printing? +Yes, I'm trying to think. +Have you got a separate procedure for . +Yeah. +knows the separate procedure . +Well, I'll have the . +I'm not to keen on striking it out. +if we leave it in, Sarah can still follow the procedures. +It's the same if we take it out, if we take heaven knows what . +Well we just established that there are areas where we're using rate cards and where we don't follow the procedure. +I think +Does printing follow? +Printing . +Printing has its own separate procedure. +I think one of the problems is not taking out rate card , if you leave out, if you actually say this procedure does not cover full estimates and costs or costing based on rate cards. +So, if you don't take that out, it means that effectively you're gonna have to have another procedure somewhere that's going to cover rate cards. +And if they get, if they're happy to work to that. +Er, we're gonna need . +Contact cover the procedure. +So, if we don't take this out we have to do something about . +. +Yes. +. +Good, right. +Now erm, most of this is about er, repeat projects rather than new, original ones. +Erm, you can read the suggestion there, two point three, two point four. +My only concern is two point four. +We're quite clear we have to have provisional guidelines which say with , what level of seniority is required to authorise a quotation of the values. +Do we have a list of authorised researchers, that is people who are authorised to give costed clearances. +Yes, each division has erm,. +Right, so when in two point four it says er, a copy of the quotation must be signed by an authorised researcher. +Er, someone as authorised in the divisional guidelines, yes, authorised to, checked and authorised according to divisional guidelines. +Signed by an authorised researcher. +That may not be by name, John. +Erm, I mean, our pres , our erm, guideline is by level. +By level. +I know we still say that is defining levels . +Okay, I just wanted to be clear we weren't finding an additional list of names of people who are authorised to do this. +No. +'Cos it, for example, in support when it came to the +I don't know how other people are doing the guidelines but by definition the divisional guidelines mustn't say, must define who the authorised people are, or those . +Whether they do it by name or by status level or whatever else, really doesn't matter. +Obviously it must define the +Right, it's just that we had this issue in support of other research a questionnaire and in support key divisions, sorry, key departments have lists of named individuals who can authorise questionnaires. +That's in data , data processing and, and . +So, I'm just thinking that the potential across the company if you look at our system broadly and an auditor says the phrase authorised researcher, where's the list of names, they'll get an answer in one part of the company and they'll get a list of job titles in another part. +No problem. +. +So, we agree two point four. +Erm, we haven't let anyone disagree with that either. +I'm not clear about the, the sentence in case a repeat costing's copy of the quotation given to the client must be signed by an authorised researcher. +Is that . +Copy of the letter. +Oh, copy of the original letter, so if you didn't +No, no, the new letter which says this'll cost, the at this time will cost you three thousand five hundred, then you've got it signed by an . +quotation probably based on your previous jobs, somewhere write that down. +No, you haven't. +In case we repeat . +No, I don't see any reason why we shouldn't arrive at a costing based on the costing quoted before. +Yeah, but you've got to come up with a cost somewhere, that's got to be . +Yeah, well yeah you just do that times five percent. +percent, or whatever. +Yeah, that's what I mean. +Yes, but . +That's the figure that appears in the quotation to the client. +That's the only place the cost goes. +Yes. +I don't see a need to have it repeated on a separate bit of paper anywhere else. +Right. +Just . +The only thing is, if in access they may never actually write this down. +they always write it down. +Oh, they do. +Mmm. +Oh, right. +Well, that's all right. +I mean, the difference is, I think, that if you, if the letter comes from the liaison point then the letter won't necessarily be signed by the authorised researcher but we're saying a copy of the letter is signed by the authorised researcher and put in the file. +Right. +Yeah. +Yes. +Clearly, if the person is authorised himself, the letter on its own will do it. +Yeah. +Completes in the first sentence needs to be in upper case. +In two three. +Right. +. +Okay two, two three, two four and two five are all accepted? +Yep. +Well done, good. +Moving on to Q P4. +. +Any extras on Q P4 before we start? +Erm,guidelines +He's got that here. +Oh, has he. +Right, fine. +Oh no, he's got, hang on. +None of the new ones . +So. +. +Yeah, right. +There were references in the last two meetings and two quiffs from Liz and Peter erm, which I can dig out if you want me to. +It's erm, as you can see, it's divisional guidelines for authorising costing needs to be and referred to under related documents rather than just divisional policy. +. +Yes. +I think this was one of the quiffs erm, arguing that er, a proposal er, will help prepare, the letter wasn't . +a letter to the constitute . +I mean, it's the same project. +No, that's okay. +Erm, four nine, the research of formal question letter, order form or contract , to my mind, quite honestly, a purchase order form is a contract from the client but erm, the quiff seemed to think that it wasn't so, I don't know whether it's worth changing this, depends how the auditors form . +The auditors picked up that we had a pink purchase order form which was neither a commissioning letter nor a contract. +In my eyes it is a contract but do we need to make this change? +. +as we're going to make other changes anyway so +Yep. +And we said that where a form referred to a procedure, the procedure would refer to the form so I've added that details are completed on the research approval form. +Yeah. +Erm. +That's details of the ? +Of four point nine +the date of written confirmation from or to client. +Yeah. +We've also got client so, we've also the client contact record sheet which is . +, you don't have a enquiry, do you. +You only have it once at this point on, not at this scene of the . +Yes, it does, I think. +Yes, I think it does. +Now once question I have got on this. +As I've, I mean divisional guidelines forthrising costing I've added to the related documents and I'll produce those because they're a divisional thing. +Er, I've now added the research approval form and it's become a related document here but in the original allocation of forms, the responsibility for keeping this up to date was not mine. +Now, are we sticking with the allocation that we had in the past, peoples responsibility, or when we change them in this sort of way are we mucking them about? 'Cos I like to know what I am responsible for and what I'm not. +Yes, it decision. +Presumably the original decision was, was based on the first time , it is now the first time. +Yes, that's correct. +Who is currently . +Whoever. +Jenny I think, is it? +Yes. +Jenny . +Both are going to be difficult. +It's going, if you actually think of, about this, it is going to be difficult to me to remember to change the responsibility. +I would prefer that we accepted that Stella's original notes defines the responsibility for forms literally for all the time. +So do I. +I mean, we just, we just don't have to keep changing it and talking about it. +It does mean it's no longer the case that the, that the owner of forms is the person who's first mentioned. +. +No, but that was just an easy way of . +Yep. +But we have all and we know what . +Okay. +Sorry, can I just. +It may be me misunderstanding, but erm, are we therefore saying on this one, god which one are we on, Q P ? +Four. +Four. +Where are we adding this bit about research approval form? +At the end of four point nine. +Right, so we only do it once we've got the formal, so we're not generating a research approval form for, unnecessarily? +No. +Right, sorry. +I thought, we're only doing it once it's been commissioned. +Right, okay, fine. +Once it's been commissioned. +Can I just make one suggestion, sorry, and that is er, in four point nine, where you've got your formal commissioning letter er, you put down order form or contract. +If you take the word form out and just leave it as order, then it doesn't matter in what form it comes from the +Yes +Yes. +Form or a letter. +Yes. +I mean, just going back to your point, I mean to me an order form is a contract. +If we're going to put something in then let's keep it as general as possible. +Yes. +Any other points on Q P4. +four point six you've got quotation letter and actually a lot of our quotations are actually faxes. +Would that,? +It's, what it comes down to is an understanding. +If we're talking about outside auditors, whether it's a letter, a fax or whatever won't make any difference as they won't quibble over things like order forms and stuff. +They're looking for a written documents, full stop. +But, internally, you need to make sure that your auditors and your, and everyone understands the same thing. +i think it is fair in that case, because we do define a proposal as we've done elsewhere as a . +Good, Q P4 done. +Any . +No? +Good. +. +Q P5. +Are any of you extras on Q P5? +Yes,. +Erm, oh this is the, this is the point that erm, had Stella wrought up earlier on. +The quiff erm, was about these interim field reports, suggested that no such thing existed, interim should be taken out and the rest of it should be . +Er, Stella was saying we are going to have interim field reports. +That's because I'm going to suggest, so we call them interim fieldwork re , interim fieldwork reports. +What . +And that'll be a related document. +No, it won't be a related document because we don't +Good. +They vary. +You can't have a standard one. +like job descriptions. +They vary and job descriptions with them. +So you want them to be called interim fieldwork reports. +Yes. +Make sure . +lower case. +Does this apply to er, interim response reports +Postal surveys. +Postal surveys? +That wasn't quiff but it's parallel. +I've never done one. +I don't know. +I'm looking at Alan. +You don't know either, presumably. +Could we say +Yeah, I think it applies. +Let's say it applies to postal in exactly the same way. +So, all I've got to do is disembowel them. +And you'll need to take on more, Stella. +That, when it comes to postals . +Right, interim fieldwork report. +Okay, fine, yep. +Yeah. +Right, so it's neither of those related documents. +Yep. +Five point ten. +Five point ten. +This was the thing that came up previously about er, dispatch of a report not being recorded anywhere, because of that was a compliment slip which a photocopy wasn't kept and so we erm, therefore have to have a note made on the client contact form to say it's gone. +This is gonna have to be a general reminder to, a general point to all researchers because they won't know that, I'm sure. +That wasn't the original, that was never briefed. +No. +But if we have to do that. +a major new +It is a major new point that if we have to prove we've sent, sent things out then that means +But you make a note of that as part of your +I believe it's quite an important part. +Well, well, well. +Nothing about training should go on er, as training people procedure should go on the notice board, shouldn't it. +I think maybe with this next issue of procedures we need a separate mode going round which says highlights the key things, yeah. +highlighting the key points. +'Cos otherwise everyone +Everyone will . +The reason for setting aside a through the request as researchers where we're actually going to go through all the procedures, highlighting , the changes are and why. +Elizabeth, could you just sort of mark that in your minute, as something that if we do produce a highlight of changes, that is one that we . +the first thing which is re , a really major change to peoples behaviour. +It, from the requirements of the standard it does only imply where you haven't got a covering letter or anything like that with it. +Yeah, that's all the time though. +'Cos all our reports probably go out with compliment slips, all our . +'Cos if you've got copies of the reports and things in the file, then that's not a problem. +Where the problem arose was when there was no record of anything having been sent or what had been sent or anything. +Well, what do you mean, if there's a copy of the report in the file. +I mean, if there's a copy in the information office is that good enough proof that it's gone? +Well, this is up to you to decide what you actually +proof if you need it. +This is a not unreasonable thing to have as one of our procedures remind you and ten, twenty . +No, I know. +Now let's move on to Q P9. +I think this is the closest that we'll find. +Well, I'm not quite sure that's what it's called. +Is it called client contact form? +Client contact record sheet. +Sheet. +Client contact +Record sheet. +Record sheet. +It's not a form, it's a sheet. +Is that referred . +You take your , do you know that? +What? +Advertising campaign, you probably don't know.. +Oh yes, I do. +your sheet. +Have you changed your sheet. +Is erm, set down as a related document form there or? +Kleenex +Not yet, no. +I was gonna say Andrex. +. +So, in this case I do inherit a new form, do I? +No one else has got, has someone else got responsibility for client contact record sheet? +No, I don't think they have. +I think I have, 'cos I think it's on the erm, Q P whatever it is, document control policy records and I think that's one of mine. +Oh yes, it will be and it's , it'll be in the list, the list of what should be in the master job file. +. +Yep. +In the list. +Yep. +It'll be in that. +Quality records? +Yeah. +Client contact record sheet. +Now I've got a suggestion form from Sarah here with four points on it. +Is this on Q P5? +Is that on Q P5? +It's still on five, yep. +Point one; er, for access the field element is pre-booked, it's only necessary to book additional days or shifts verbally in excess of that already reserved. +Will that come under the erm, when they inact continuous or would it continue as a non-standard survey? +No, Ros has already argued that in most cases access is covered by a standard procedure survey. +Right. +So, what if it says Simon, because I wasn't paying attention. +So point one does not apply to access,have to have. +Yep. +Well, let's carry on with, there are others here. +Point two. +Booking forms are used for access face to face. +Erm, a schedule is used as a telephone omnibus detailing all the projects on that particular survey. +So, there's an appropriate booking form for face to face which is actually in excess,. +I'd say so. +Well, is it oh no, no, no. +Come on. +Can the term er, appropriate booking form cover this thing called the schedule. +Oh yes, yes. +Er, oh. +Call it a booking form. +Form? +Yes. +I was just saying that's what a booking form is, a schedule isn't it? +No, I mean the , the others have actually got booking form written on them. +Are we gonna be changing the name of the schedule to booking form. +Yes. +Or booking schedule. +Or booking sheet. +Either that or we write a couple of variations on the end of this and we say the general access conforms to this but in their case, the other one is pre-booked,the extras and they have a booking schedule. +'Cos this says specifically in the applications, with the exception of continuous surveys. +Therefore, and I think we'll all take access to something that we would . +Paul, point Q does not apply to access by telephone which is what we're for. +Mmm, well we don't particularly want access to exempted from the procedure. +No. +Which, if we car , if we call it continuous survey then it would be. +I've also got points at point three and point six now. +This is when erm, we need to go back and look, look at your continuous survey procedure. +Yes. +Which we've already talked about and there's no reason why erm, you cannot have a one pager for access. +It says it works in accordance with our normal procedures except and rather than put the exceptions for access in that procedure,. +This requires us going through these with toothcombs as we've frequently already got access as an exception in them. +We had it on this procedure, already. +It's not complete, is it? +One point four. +And it's coming, and from what Simon was saying, it's coming in, in other places as well. +Yes, points three and point six. +I think very good at going through with a toothcomb anyway and I'm sure that she could quite adequately. +There's a fundamental problem in here that my definition of the continuous survey includes access. +If said to me, what's a continuous survey I would put access in it. +Aren't we going to . +This procedure says the continuous surveys are excluded and then specifically says erm, what applies to access except this one. +I think that's the aberration, isn't it? +The oth , the other's don't say except continuous surveys anyway, do they? +Most of them don't. +Yeah, but we have got a problem with the other's, so far. +This is the first where we've got a lot of problems with access. +I mean, my concern here is that if you've got a procedure that's got nine points in it, and effectively we're going to go through one, two, three, five of those nine points and say either this does not apply to access or access does it differently. +They're not working in accordance with that procedure. +None of this really applies, if you read each of these they don't apply to access, in the real sense, do they? +In the full sense that them, we're talking about. +. +Well, five can't apply 'cos four +. +it sounds to me as though we should let the, the application stand with the exception of continuous surveys. +Delete this reference, point four does not apply to access by telephone, take up Carolines point that we need for access when we've got through the other continuous a brief statement which says, the project planning procedure doesn't totally apply until . +If we leave +Project planning. +It's not a separate procedure. +It's, it's a document available within access. +Oh, I see. +It just says , it's different. +But there's a continuous procedure that says . +Right, so there'll be a statement here or would that be in . +There'll be a statement in the procedure that Richard is going to write on behalf of Jenny. +Oh, right. +Which defines a list of things which will have their own er, statement exceptions. +So, if we're leaving with the exception of continuous surveys in there, where do we say er,. +I thought we were gonna write +So, we're going to write that in. +Because those +That's gonna be in the individual master job file. +They're gonna be in their master job files. +Any differences. +But they all follow this. +Virtually, I think. +Fine, in that case. +Then they just have somebody who says, we follow procedure of Q P5 . +They don't even need to do that. +If they are actually following a standard company procedure the project planning is very good monitoring. +Yes, the continuous procedure only allows you the freedom to make changes if you need to. +So, if you don't need to. +I, I would suggest that any areas here at, as a overall statement where you said things don't apply to continuous, that those are actually taken out and that every procedure applies to everything, unless it is specifically removed and your continuous one allows you the +Yes, that is reasonable now we're creating a continuous one, isn't it. +I mean, that was obviously put in here at the time that we didn't have anything that covered it. +Oh, that's right, yes. +So, I think perhaps if you take that out and write this continuous and non-standard one, it allows you the facility for using it or not using it, depending on the project you're working on. +Presumably should we therefore have something that covers quality, oh sorry no this covers it doesn't it, yeah, o.k. +Richard another point +Erm the only reason this is an issue that I get a cooking for as Research Process Manager anyway, as Audit Manager I need to have other booking forms, and the only booking forms and additional booking forms I need are all jobs which then got to Mrs which are the so I ask please make amendment to put Audit Manager in and I don't think we need to specify. +Erm can someone make it clear to me where we ended up with Q P5, I am not sure whether we are changing the application or deleting Yes the exception both doing both your doing both yes. +Is this being appraised with the exception or continuous service with the application, and we are deleting that point 4 doesn't apply to access. +We will have a new procedure called Continuous and Non-Standard Surveys which says that they will follow the basic procedures, except where this doesn't make sense, and if it doesn't make sense the job will have in it's Master Job File a statement of how, it does comply with whatever it has to deal with. +Now on that point, for access someone now needs to pick up and write effectively a simple this is how we project planning on access. +And there may be one or two other things we work through over this meeting and the next meeting. +We are close to the end of erm You should be lively signing this document. +We might call it a day at the end of the assignments and take Jenny's away to recap, erm lets get to the end of the assignments first, Q P9. +Where is Q P9? papers rustling This one I think we should give a little thought, because this is the one I think where oh yes this is going to get complicated because I have now been given a quiff and a few suggestion forms about it +You said you didn't have the print of it, is that right? +Yeah Richard's has given me +Your'e still missing two? +This is also one where we chase our search approval forms, and procedure. +we've got quite a lot of these reports together here. +It's also the one that covers +You should continue this as a staff meeting with +The only change that I have got here are minor things that were references from a previous meeting all the difficult stuff comes from the Quiff and the suggestion forms that I have not looked at yet, and so if you want to do that around a table because I don't know whether thats right. +Can you +Erm, I I just hoped to dictate to you which would cover the changes of the research approval form +Well there is a list of things, list of points here, 4C does not apply to scan 5, does not apply to scan T G I questionnaire. +9 Research approval forms for relevant to T G I space. +10 does not apply to T G I Survey. +The reissued so that the reissued quantitated appro.. search approval form no longer has provision for B P questionnaire approval. +Continue reading first continue reading. +Company survey's will not go through data prep but D P approval is critical why has this been removed from the form? +Because the only job we haven't capped, is continuous and there are no procedures for continued jobs yet, and we have not yet got an ad for Kathy job and therefore no procedures were a mythical thing. +However. +laughing +However, as we write these continuous things which we are talking about, approval for Kathy clearly is an issue permanent restructuring for each +I'd suggested to Sarah it might be covered by Q P10.5 which actually says that the research approval form is signed by the researcher which she felt wasn't really enough. +That was my understanding of what might be meant to cover that point. +That she felt that it was really something D P actually signed off.. +Well there is not for Kathy but for Kathy she thought this would be. +Well they keep a record now don't they D P keep a record anyway, there is a system where D P keep their own records perhaps it would be helpful they've authorised +If I just read out what I was going to suggest Simon described the new system for approvals it goes something like erm, sorry it's 9.9, all approvals are recorded on research approval forms full stop. +Erm in order to simplify the approvals from Support Division, field approval is recorded on the field review form, data preparation and D P approval is recorded on data preparation schedule the name of the person giving approval, the name of the person, the names of D P's approvals are recorded on the research approval form. +So obviously you just write down that Rita did it on the 10th. +But Rita in her own department has got the document that she sends so the researcher doesn't have to take the bit of paper round to everybody and get their research approval form signed. +That's fair enough +because you get action +Sorry, +There's not room on the form I don't think +It doesn't matter cause Rita can't D P could authorise it. +I said we haven't got a procedure for Kathy +I thought you were reading out the bit to +All I have been saying is the things which aren't Kathy's +everything else questionnaires. +Now Kathy seems to me should be checked checking the assessor, just as if it was going over the telephone +Well then that's just what I was just trying to think through on Kathy. +Well we don't have procedures for it, we haven't written them. +Sorry if you take catty as the para now, then D P aren't actually, the reason D P sent the paper questionnaire is to just double check that all the columns and everything are laid out in the correct way aren't they and then checking it for that reason, whereas they are actually doing it on something like Kathy themselves so they, there isn't the same approval going on. +Someone's got to check the filters are right +The does that on a Catty Questionnaire +Well he does that on every questionnaire, but he still has got to get someone to double check it. +Mmm, it's that element of double checking that +But, I mean that D P team do a lot of work on the Catty questionnaires which doesn't really seem to be er sort of fully acknowledged at the moment. +Yes, I think that as Richard said we need to agree if quality is to continue we have to write some Kathy procedures. +That thats certainly +With a timetable to them we are in the best place to do it now cause we're still learning we have only done three jobs, four now haven't we? erm the Kathy procedure is definitely needed. +We are grinding to a halt on those aren't we? +yeah +We got D P 9.16, 28.32 we've still got four to do. +Are any of those other one simple, what you would consider simple ones to understand? +Erm, I will have to look at them +They are actually. +As 9 is one that obviously needs a lot of work and a lot of thought on it. +I am proposing to delay 9 as a question for the next meeting Qualitators, quality control rustling paper. +Erm this was the suggestions from Rita +All of them seem very sensible to me. +Well I have accepted adding those research review meeting. +Yep. +Are you, what are you going to call this form now Si Is it the qualitative review form or +Erm it is an existing +It's called a Qualitative Data Review form no it's called a Qualitative Research Review form so what's this in the something else. +Oh I see as opposed to that which is how many groups they proceed to check. +The qualitative research review form it's existed for sometime. +So thats now reference and there is a project review meeting as there is a quantitative work. +You have got four things sorry related documents. +Four how have I got four? +I've qualitative field review forms, yeah qualitative data review forms yeah qualitative research approval forms. +It does exist, but it's not referenced here, but it does exist. +And if it's not referenced here it may not be referenced anywhere else. +Well, it needs to be Q P9 then doesn't it? +Where we were just now with the research then talk about questionnaires. +Called research approval forms. +No there is a separate one for qualitative and it is different. +Yes it has a lot it has a lot less on it, things like.. +Is this document on that side do you know? +What? +No, I just have qualitative approvals +It's not mentioned anywhere I think it ought to come up first in Q P9 doesn't it? +Well can I make a suggestion that you add it all to the list of the things to discuss it is . +Authorisations. +Did you get that one Simon? +Erm Discussion of Q P9 we need to decide when we qualitative approval form or whether it gets,business procedure Q P16. +In that case we can't finalise this one until we have decided that. +So I think that should be bought up. +No one owns this form what we are trying to do is make sure it's ready so therefore it has an owner. +It seems sensible that it goes with wherever the +The qualitative procedure is aware of your design procedures. +They may do a few they're not going to cut there, they will cut . +Yeah but it doesn't really fit in here at all, I mean it's nothing to do with any of this. +Nothing to do with any of this at all. +It could come up under +You see my visions for qualitative are slightly different to the four months at the moment, and I feel perhaps could exchange Q P16 for the control procedures to be a longer procedure but to have everything covering the project plan in progress monitoring through to quality control procedures for just the quality. +So if you look at something like Q P5 where you have got this point qualitated, in fact a lot of the points don't actually apply to qualitated because many of the points relate to erm, D P erm,qualitative field as opposed to survey. +So I do just wonder if I couldn't pick out point say 1 and 2 of Q P5 and 6 which are about booking and booking forms and confirming the commission of qualitative through to whatever is required during the run off of it and then add the quality control check and finally you have got this, the final review. +So in other words qualitative, the whole of qualitative between commissioning as merit checks has an er +Yes o.k. that a major review of the whole thing though. +Do you want me to have a go at doing that Simon? because I have been difficult about it, if that helps you. +Well that would be welcome but it's fine, and it should be down to me to do it, but you are all welcome. +O.K. I'll try do a version, but it does effect on Q P 5 an Q P6 you see as well coughing. +Can you and Simon +liaise . +coughing. +Do you think that's a good idea? +Yes I think it is. +Could I explain one alteration on Q P16 Simon given our recent changes. +We've got this erm, er, some one is going to monitor a proportion of work that you have recorded as transcripts anyway, and it will be a research director or A.D. I'm just wondering whether we can comply with this now. +Er, well will you leave that to me in the re-writing of this. +Sure absolutely. +Q P16 we are going to move on from then, unless there are any other comments on Q P16, Rita is going to attempt to redraft and draw together material from previous procedures, and that means that adjustments of previous procedures you will be able to sign, and finalise them. +Sorry, are you saying that erm we are going to delay doing anything about Q P5. +I would, in that, in the light of well, actually no we don't have to . +In actually physically up dating anything, I would suggest that at this point that Simon doesn't do of them until after the next meeting when we have got all the other's together as well because again they may attach things, just that you've got your information and know what's been decided and do the whole lot after the next meeting. +Can't we get Monica to do the up dating ? +I think it would be easier to try and draw them together so that we have got this document with the position so far, as we have a lot . +It's very hard, I am finding it hard to keep up with them at the moment. +Certainly we shouldn't re-issue anything until after the next meeting but erm, having the procedures we have finished with so far, in their latest form probably helpful, even if it's only you whose has the master copy Simon right so when we need some reference, we have got that chapter and verse. +Monica I am sure would be quite happy to. +laughing +She will be ecstatic +She certainly won't be. +This is what worries me, if you have got too much stuff going through one person that . +That's what will confuse her. +But their always in version two. +No there not, this is going to be an interim version between one and two, what Dot's just suggested. +It's still typed as two. +I it's she will type it in as two, and then you will give her the next draft and then two and then the next draft and then two, I mean there's no confusion there for her. +That is extremely confusing for her, cause she has on her computer, she has various versions named in two, unless she destroys previous versions of M2 when she does this one Well she should she should overtype the correct one Which isn't what we did with M1 +Well then one is a complete rewrite. +But we had various versions of M1, but we didn't ever get rid of the first version, so we could, the one that Suzannah did and then the one that I changed, and then the one that the Committee changed, all exist so that we can back track what we actually did. +Right. +How did she with this we just need to type over it No, we do, I mean you do this just the same as any normal report, you do the first one and then you edit it and make yeah, yeah. +Monica will be alright she know's what she's doing, it's just whether she has the time to do it, she would liked it if we had done this before Christmas, so that while you were away John +you could have done it she had plenty of time to do it. +Would we be able to do erm, just a sort of support ones and D T P if we got the masters from Monica as a standard responsibility. +Yah, now she's made them out, shall we say we will take that one to share the load. +If Monica gives a brief one. +Press on please to Q P 28. papers turning +I don't think I've got anything new on this so all of this comes out of B T 7, and this is all to do with Stella's original paper about who had responsibility for forms and so on. +Any problems with these proposals. +Seem perfectly sensible to me. +Accepted. +Right then number 32, Q P32 +Erm we are renumbering some points in that one, erm we were trying to avoid it before but I can't seem any way of avoiding it here because these are major new things. +Then there's the new additions I'm sorry about that. +papers turning +The proposals on Q P 32 actually reflects erm, the decision we made earlier on my, my proposal about suggestion of whose responsible for . +Sorry. +Well I think points 6 to 7 are to the procedure owner who communicates what action and under responsibility both points it's actually procedure only and not divisional quality manager. +That would be o.k. if the only suggestions allowed were suggestions about procedures. +We have just agreed that we would allow suggestions about procedures and other suggestions about the way the Company is run. +They are often the same person or principal it could be either in divisional quality manager or procedure +Just a change of how we would suggestion box unless +So maybe Simon a brief statement in the application yep would clarify. +Well. +we decided that we didn't need to change the application I suggested that. +This procedure describes how suggestions for improvements to systems and procedures are generated. +Well in that case how about on method point 1 suggestions for improvements we need the word 'two procedures'. yes yes suggestions for improvements yes suggested to for improvements to procedures. +Well I suppose we've got to reissue it anyway so we might as well. +Yeah, yeah. +Good. +I propose Elizabeth that you circulate Jenny's reprocedures to everyone but we don't know with them, that we will read them prior to the next meeting and agree them at the meeting papers turning I have got to assess papers turning take one. +Take one of those, I've taken one, take loads of copies Three procedures coming out I thought I was getting it already anyway laughing scattering the whole process . +Can we just agree one final bit of detail before we pack in, there are a number of procedures now either which we be re- prepared as the basis of today's discussions, we have only got two, have we, is there just two? three three 17 18 and 21 21, I've got 17 18 21 is choices, it was the first one to come round. +Don't try to blame me. +Bottom pile in choices if you can send it back. +Are there any spares to erm oh yeah thank you, +Suggestions, in preparation for the next meeting, for those procedures that we still have to review, the procedure owners are going to put the information to us in one of two ways, if it is a minor modification procedure small changes of wording things need to be uncontroversial, we will resite the procedure with red line and strike out in the way that Jenny procedures have been prepared and circulate before the meeting. +yep If the procedure owner thinks that more substantial discussions are needed then we prepare something based on model assignments paper which summarises the erm, in put so far making the proposal as a bases . +Everyone happy with that? +Just to confirm it is one O'clock next Monday working lunch. +Is there any chance of a bigger airier room, or is it just +Whenever possible I try to get a Lecture Theatre, erm but I was told it was booked all day today we were originally in presentation room then came, so be grateful we're in the Board Room. +That was actually quite a productive meeting, although it took quite a time to get through it, I think we did the right thing on the continuous procedures. +That will be bit of a break through as I was getting a bit despondent about them. +Any note from me about progress will follow next Month's meeting not today. +I agree, yep. +O.K. before we pack up any other business. +Erm there was I am sorry to be boring but there are all these action points from the previous meeting Oh yes I forgot the action points do you feel we have covered them. +I don't know. +Erm I don't think we can spend a long time considering them, it's just if people bear me whisking through them our brains. +Could I also ask a question which you might be completely clear on, but I'm not, when we do back checks on files and make sure they are all up to date and so on, we come across maybe a research approval which hasn't been signed off in the right places, how far back in time do we need to get that signed off. +We don't. +We don't. +If it's something like that erm, all will go back and check that erm the researcher in as a matter of course, a couple of months and make sure +But when it comes up for the real audit, what job, is it going to encourage jobs that are audited. +Old jobs you can't say don't know they will of course be +We will explain our procedure and how a system is developed to be assigned, they will decide. +What will happen in fact is that you'll have a start date for your system, which was basically when N1 was, and what they will be looking for is that everything from that date forward is complying right so that a job that started before then, they won't look for the initial part of that job to comply right as of that date onwards they will look for it to comply. +In practice if you are back checking files and such like, if you find something that is current word which should comply and you find something that hasn't been appropriately signed or whatever, if it's easy to get it done yes do it yes, if it's not easy to get it done erm, it may be, you've got to use your judgement because I don't want you to go into a lot of work, but it may make sense to make a final note we are aware that this wasn't done correctly this person has been reminded, or +In this case it's fine anyway so +Well that depends on whether you are actually doing it during an audit or doing it for other reasons, what they are looking for is that your system is getting better and that you have done the right things. +Well thank you. +I will run as quickly as I can through the minutes of the last meeting just raising those things which still have to be actioned. +Erm missing procedures we have decided that Jenny is going to write T G I, Beety will write B T and we are going to write something on access and we may need to write something on erm Health and Finance and those documents we have got in the Master File. +So that's under way. +Er, costing for parallel, repeat jobs, that's been dealt with by Simon erm, Client contact record I think that's now been assimilated into new procedures yes we have just talked about that er sub- contracting you have probably dealt with that, although we haven't discussed it yes er, list of procedure owners I have prepared and reissued it, I don't how wide they have circulated it, it was meant to go into the Quality Manual, and the Quality Manual is not being re-circulated until March time. +I will provide a copy to Elizabeth and we will circulate it to members of this committee, together with the Ministers' meeting. +Julia's definitely got a copy +Yar, I think I got a copy but I just sort of filed it with all the Quality Manual stuff, as there were various different things which needed. +Alan D P P forms done. +Yep. +All forms weeded out, get things destroyed, quality divisional quality managers. +I think we've reviewed that this morning, early and we are doing quite well on forms, but do we need any further action on that? +Yes we really need to do this don't we. +Do the weeding yes and sorting which is really going to come from our meeting. +Well can the divisional quality managers be prepared to report back on this next Monday. +Well wouldn't it be better to wrap it all up in the forms meeting. +Rather than take the time of the quality committee? +What's this forms meeting? +It isn't yet +It isn't John hasn't arranged it yet. +That's why it's not in my diary. +I'll organise that. +O.K. +All of that next bit relates to the form meeting. +The form's meeting and I will take along to that. +So that's down to me yep? +O.K. well we have dealt with that, research approval is what has changed it. +is that all that was? +You've done that. +laughing +Every so often senior level people must go to files to check that things have been correctly, you need to continue to do it,, Action Divisional Quality Managers. +I'd like Elizabeth to bring that forward yep for my benefit, as I know I haven't done it and I'd like it as a prompt. +You want some spot checks, half an hour a week to go and do some spot checks on that. +How about that? +Was that meant to be that people like me should be doing spot checks, Richard should tell people like me to do spot checks or Richard was going to do spot checks? +It should be that Richard does it, though he might choose to delegate it. +But the i . +. +Richard is responsible for seeing that it is done. +Yes. +Yes. +In one way or another. +There are two things you're trying to achieve. +One is the spot checks themselves to make sure that everything is right, the other is to show the commitment to people like you that this thing's important. +Active staff. +So, we need to make that happen. +Yeah. +T G I manuals, well Jenny's working on that. +Sub- contracting work, Q P19. +Rita. +T G I production list. +Yes, to be fair Jenny came in er, on Friday to talk to me about it, but I just didn't have time, I was rushing off to a meeting so I've +You carried forward that . +Yeah, I, I couldn't, I just didn't have time. +Er, okay, we'll carry forward Jenny +. +Probably in her procedure. +Yes. +, Q P17 changes. +Yep. +D T P printing need their quality manuals reference in presentation will of course be . +Jenny did circulate to me, by way of saying, I've done something about this, copies of D T P quality manual and printing quality control manual. +With good quality manual, one of quality control manual and and all these are is the old procedures, quite badly out, not written anything like . +So really I, I thought they were a bit of a mess to be honest. +Is that a manual? +That's a manual. +Big manuals. +I don't think they are any good for the purpose myself, but maybe you've got an old version of the . +The procedure circulated them as the thing that's in place. +Yeah. +They've been retyped and they've been called erm, procedures. +Erm +What? +Guidelines, sorry. +Guidelines. +And er, they are actually a good description of what goes on in those departments and those that relate to these procedures. +Could you make sure that Jenny is clearly briefed then, because she thinks, this is version N3, dated January '94. +. +There is some confusion there, I think, and er, I'm glad they've been retyped and issued . +There's already more reason why and that's suggesting that you're saying January is inadequate. +. +You can have two issued in January, one is like N3 and one's N4, because you know that N4 is more reason for . +So, we're going to follow up on that. +Well, the issues of it. +Alan, can you feed back to Jenny what the state of play is, but she also doesn't seem to have her document control particularly well organised and if you and D P, sorry D T P, re-issuing those guidelines, you shouldn't be. +Jenny should be. +If they are related documents to the procedures. +They're controlled documents. +Erm, they weren't controlled documents up until now. +They weren't, okay. +They're about to become .. +They came out of the audit, didn't it. +And out of Carolines audit . +Yes, they sort of crawled out of the woodwork. +Thank you, Stella. +We just raised an instance of the next point of the minute. +It must have been reference for Jenny to be +No. +They were originally procedures, you see, and then they disappeared as procedures and went nowhere. +They were in, they're coming in in seven reports. +Your suggestions? +Like the last meeting, yes. +It's not fair. +Can we use things like document . +As things are revised we should try to harmonise names of third level documents. +We've got the department quality manuals, working guideline, we've got the quality control manual, we've got the quality manual erm, it would be nice to see if we could harmonise them. +But, we could only do that from procedure levels and . +That was a , wasn't it. +but not accurate enough to say at this stage. +it, there's no point in re-issuing perfectly good documents just to change the name on them. +No. +But,. +But, new documents that are being prepared. +I, I would suggest you need a standard name for it. +Quality guidelines or just guidelines. +Guidelines. +Wouldn't it be whatever it is, yes. +Guidelines. +Dot. +Dot, dot, dot, dot, guidelines. +Well, can everyone take on board the idea now, if there are new documents being prepared or we get to a major re-issue . +We're talking about guidelines. +Yeah, in the process of . +Even if they're all about quality control. +Yeah. +. +No, just thinking of data prep. +Think about guidelines. +Yeah, I mean, a document that is literally about levels of verification and . +. +I have one question about it though, and that is ar , if you're calling them guidelines are they guidelines or are they mandatory . +We could use this procedure say according to the guidelines, then it becomes mandatory. +Guidelines. +No, no, it becomes mandatory to follow the guidelines which are not mandatory. +. +I think it's important that you know. +They are in the sense that I think we believe they're mandatory, don't we? +. +But we don't want to make it a, a potential area to fail . +It, it depends on just what these things are for, because if think about a third level document as being something like the T G I manual, that's got to be mandatory, you've got no choice in it because it's not covered in procedures, it's got to be that. +There are other things that may not be, so you need to think very carefully about what name you're going to call them and whether all these documents are mandatory or are advisory. +Could we put on the agenda for a future meeting something called review of guidelines where the, this is exactly the issue. +Yeah, so what to call them if we're going to change the name, or what we will eventually change it to, we're not going to change them now and whether they're mandatory or not and whether we need to change them to say that. +For a future meeting or the next meeting. +Not the next meeting. +Just +No, not the next meeting. +February, March. +February, is good. +February. +Training records, there is a committee in place meeting tomorrow to deal with that. +Sorry, February, I think we'll be having feedback, won't we? +Don't worry about it, we'll +Alright. +February will be good, we should it before March. +We should no the answer to this before comes. +Right. +Er, Stella, have you taken action on Q P24? +Erm, yes, we have. +This is where we've come up with critical application software. +Okay. +I mean, you'll see it in my procedures when we, when we get +See we've twice as divisional quality manager half an hour each week looking at . +It's now an hour. +Did I say an hour? +. +Oh, is it. +double dose. +Erm, Richard to organise our auditors to accompany Caroline next time. +Okay? +Yep, fine. +Er, divisional quality manager should give positive feedback on divisions about this pre-assessment, the one that happened. +Anything to report back on that, divisional quality managers? +One divisional quality manager didn't even get positive feedback.. +I think Richard gave me a copy of all . +. +Mine, they haven't. +No, I mean, the meeting wasn't that long ago. +I'm having a division meeting on . +So, I'll make sure that it's more general, I mean, I talk to the directors. +I'll not call a formal divisional meeting, we had that on Wednesday. +Well, I went round and talked to group , but I think there's a lot of er,about keeping everything fine and up to date at all times in all places and all the rest. +, it was almost the energy to manage to do it, a hundred percent of the time and a hundred percent of the occasions that they felt, I think, was a little daunting. +There is still lots of goodwill and I'm sure er, they'll aim to do it but +We're getting, if we could be this time next week, given feedback and come back with some response and maybe John, you can take whatever comes out of that on board in your . +Er, changing needs to get signatures, that is done. +Thank you very much for your help, Susannah. +Er, John went around to all staff is done.. +Done that. +Well, actually,wasn't a reminder about the need for suggestions, so perhaps that could be included in, in the next one. +I included quite clearly in my re-issue of the research approvals form er, the covering letter that went with it, saying you know, here's an example of suggestion that makes your life easier, please keep them coming. +That didn't go to everybody. +That only went to the +It went to all procedure holders. +only the nine . +Call for more suggestions,, okay. +Mid-January we're working on that, suggestion forms, three quality completers, I've put that in the revised list of people coming round in these minutes. +Q P32, suggestions . +Well, we've done that, haven't we Simon? +Yeah, I think so. +Matters arising from previous meetings. +Version dating related documents, task not yet complete. +Still not complete, but we have reviewed that and we're making good progress. +Mind if I have something with it. +Roy is to check on receiving inspection of testing received in . +Q P4 is amended now, Simon. +Q P17, Jenny has drafted and circulated. +Q P28, amendment still to be done. +You've done those, Simon. +Yes. +And issued them to date, that's fine. +B M R B International reports, not yet issued. +Yes, it is. +Yeah, a manual. +That Jenny has designed. +Jenny T , don't know, 'cos it was down to Jenny D to +Jenny has given me notes on, on one issue here which I must admit I haven't had a chance to read yet and it's about house style, about both manual. +I'll make sure that er, I've read that and talked to Jenny in time for the next meeting so we know where we stand. +So that's a cross to bring that one forward please. +John , still . +And? +Well, she knows she's going to do them. +Good. +Quality jobs isn't her favourite job. +Is it anybody's favourite job? +She does it well though. +Er, next for job descriptions to go to the quality manual. +I'm sure you've got the masters in place, haven't you Elizabeth?procedure review to start in September '94 in appropriate er, Richard. +Yeah. +Good. +Dates for '94 meeting, blah, blah, blah. +Next trial audit, that's it. +What an awful, that did get ticked off actually, as we went through. +Well done. +Sorry it was another long hard meeting but we are making good progress and I think by the end of our next one when we've revised most of the procedures we'll be well placed. +Good, thank you very much.. + +We certainly will be today. +Erm I it looks as though everybody's gone anonymous on me today. +Could you please turn your name boards round so we can see who's who. +Thank you very much. +Er the other rule with well method of procedure, most of you know about it, but if you want to attract my attention during the course of the discussion simply put your name board up on end and we can see who wants to speak. +We also yes I must remind you that we have read the papers so I don't necessarily want to go through it word by word line by line er but obviously when you want to make a point you will refer back to those papers but don't you must assume that we have read them and that everybody else has read them. +Er today we're going to look at this Policy E two, the op open countryside, and there are presented to you for the discussion three matters. +And the first one is, Is the policy required and if so does it give sufficient guidance. +The next matter is, Is the proposed policy too restrictive and does it adequately reflect national policy guidance on the need to rural enterprise and diver diversification of the rural economy. +Now obviously B does follow quite properly from A but let's start off with Mr Williamson picking up the question, Is the policy required and if so does it give everybody sufficient guidance. +Mr Williams. +Thank you Chairman. +Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. +Chairman, much has been said during the course of this examination about the quality of the environment in North Yorkshire. +Particular emphasis has been placed on the fact that the county embraces the best part of two national parks as well as two and a half areas of outstanding natural beauty and a heritage coast. +Collectively these areas of national designation cover about forty five percent of the three thousand two hundred square miles which constitute the county of North Yorkshire. +As befits their status they are the subject constructed on Policy E one which affords high priority to conservation landscapes and general amenity. +The majority of the remaining seventeen hundred square miles or so of the county also comprises open countryside. +Most of it's vastly populated and punctuated by well defined compact small market towns and villages. +The majority of this remaining countryside is also of a high quality deserving in the County Council's view protection in the words of P P G seven for the sake of its beauty, the diversity of its landscapes, the wealth of its natural resources and its ecological, agricultural and vacational value. +There is however no existing policy, control development and change across this wide countryside. +This represents in our view a major gap in the strategic policy framework for such an extensive rural county and one which is becoming increasingly in need of filling. +Chairman, back in nineteen eighty when the County Council's original structure plan submission was examined, the panel who subsequently the Secretary of State rejected the proposal for a policy to control development in the open countryside outside the nationally designated areas, primarily to suggest that on the grounds that the agricultural policy in the plan were equally capable of achieving the objectives sort by the proposed open countryside policy. +Chairman, I think in nineteen eighty this was quite possibly true. +Thirteen years on er the situation has changed and changed quite dramatically. +It is no longer Government policy to retain as much agricultural land in productive use as then. +At the same time new places have been exerted on the countryside almost daily. +Although they were at the agricultural policies undoubtedly continue to be relevant, still have a significant part to play in many current situations. +It is undoubtedly true their role and application in the nineteen nineties is significantly different from that envisaged back in nineteen eighty. +County Council believes therefore that is is now appropriate to clarify the strength of the general thrust of strategic policy as regards the development of the open countryside by introducing its new Policy E two. +County Council's encouraged by the fact that the introduction Policy E two is supported by all the North Yorkshire Districts and they are after all at the sharp end of implementing structure policy. +It's largely on the alerting of the County Council's decided to incorporate such a policy in this alteration. +County Council's similarly encouraged by the widest support inclusion of the policy has elicited, as I say at least in principle Chairman, and most of the respondents to alteration number three. +I think in this context there are very few people who have actually said it is not relevant or appropriate to introduce introduce the policy at this stage. +Chairman, I think I should say in proposing the proposed Policy E two it should be stressed the County Council's not seeking to introduce a policy of restraint and restriction on the development which attempts to mirror that already applying within any of the nationally designated areas. +The County Council fully recognizes that this would be appropriate, inappropriate sorry, and unacceptably constraining. +Nevertheless it does believe it is appropriate that the strategic thrust of the policy should be based on the premise that development proposals likely to be consid considered acceptable in the open countryside will in a sense represent the exception rather than the rule. +And the early reading of P P G seven it seems to me it's apparent that the principle messages are that the development in open countryside should be strictly controlled, and I would underline that point strictly controlled, and that the countryside should be safeguarded for its own sake and non-renewable and natural resources should be afforded protection. +It is I would suggest similarly evident that P P G seven expects most new development in rural areas to be directed to rural villages and small country towns and that it should be sensitively related to existing settlement patterns under the historic wildlife and landscape resources of the area. +County Council believes that this advice and guidance is synonymous with the view that is taken that development of the open countryside will in fact represent the exception rather than the rule and that new development would not normally be permitted. +The policy as now presented to the panel for consideration in the County Council's view therefore represents and provides a clear strategic statement covering the processes involved in changing the wide open countryside and beyond rural settlements and such areas identified for development purposes within those settlements could maybe identified in the appropriate drawn up plans. +As such it is considered to pro provide an appropriate level at the strategic policy guidance within which District Councils can development their local planned policies, taking into account local circumstances and conditions and indeed the appropriate balance to be struck between the rural economy and protection of the environment. +This view is supported by the District Councils who are united in their opposition for a policy incorporating more detailed guidance, particularly if it is sort to identify specific categories of exceptions likely to be considered to represent appropriate development in the countryside. +Thank you Chairman. +Thank you. +Anyone want to pick up the ball and run with it and would question whether it is considered necessary and does it give you sufficient guidance at strategic level? +Mr Donson. +Thank you Chairman. +Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. +I would very much like to pick up the ball and run with it as to whether this policy is necessary or not. +Erm we've heard from Mr Williamson that it fills a strategic gap and guidance and that pressures on the countryside are exerted daily and curiously enough it wasn't a policy of restraint or restriction. +I can't agree with any of those things. +The reason for bringing forward this policy was because it, as Mr Williamson said, is the District Councils felt there was a need to fill a strategic er a gap in strategic guidance. +And not until this morning when erm Richmondshire cir circulated their erm evidence have I seen any example of er be given a pressure which er which is being exerted. +You will remember erm er er as Mr Williamson outlined the counties covered by wholesalers and designations already protecting er the countryside. +And you will recall that in relation to Policy H one that I I I submitted to table which is called from Selby District Council showing the extent of that coverage both not only national designation but also of local designation. +And that showed that sixty eight percent of the county is actually covered by one form of national or local environmental restraint. +But that did not include agricultural land grades one two or three A which are also covered by another policy, Policy A three. +If you also take that away and you also take away land which is already covered by settlement, I would suggest that you're left with very little and so what's the strategic gap? +I think I would submit that there isn't really a strategic gap. +There may have been one or two planning applications which have been a little bit difficult to deal with but that's life surely. +We have to make decisions, that's what planning is about coming to decisions. +And that in fact what we already have in this county is a balance of policies which substantially favour environmental protection and this is just a means of adding another one which is another hurdle for any department to erm to to actually er meet. +If there is if there are no er examples of er er dev individual examples of development pressure, as I say we have one apparently presented to us this morning I think one over a period er since nineteen eighty seven, it's not a basis for a policy. +And you you will know as well in relation to Policy H one that it was said that if fact development housing development in particular 's kept pace more or less with the er the policy of er the the policy set out in the structure plan. +The exception to that of course is York but York wouldn't be affected by this open countryside policy er at all. +What I would see this policy as doing would be simply to bring an element of restraint er which er would be formulated in way in which it would within the local plans so that tight boundaries would be drawn around settlements, the rest of the land would be designated as under this policy as E two land and the debate as to whether the extent of that land was necessary or not would be negated because it would be subsumed as being there simply er meeting the strategic policy. +If we contrast that er view of what will happen in future district plans with what has actually happened under the Hambleton District plan which I know you have a copy of. +There in the absence of an E two policy the council has undertaken a full landscape assessment of its area outside the settlement. +Now it may well be that er the Federation of Hambleton disagree about what the importance of of that landscape assessment is precisely. +But nevertheless it's been done and the debate can be held under the auspices of the District Plan. +We aren't prevented from having the debate and indeed in having that debate Hambleton will have to prove they've made drawn the right boundaries. +We wouldn't they wouldn't be have to deal with that it was simply having a poli a blanket policy. +There also seems to me to be some confusion of emphasis which which adds to my concern that in fact the Government policy talks about strict control of development away, and I emphasize the word away, from settlements. +Yet this particular policy is intended and it says so in the explanatory memorandum, that it's to be once established as open count open countryside would be out immediately outside the settlements. +We will fight all land which is not er part of the settlement. +And it seems to me there is a grave danger that once established as open countryside and in an area in need of protection, it will be heavens only job to move that in future years. +And in fact the intention would be in effect that this will in fact like greenbelt and I would point to the Harrogate District er Harrogate Rural Area Study and er that's been submitted by Harrogate Council as an example of er showing that that is the precise intention of this sort of policy. +Because even in the absence of strategic guidance in the past it hasn't stopped local authorities actually bringing forward policies in their local plans. +The difference is, of course, that those policies have got to be tested if each individual case appropriateness and er I I do feel that if we have a blanket policy then we won't be able to test it. +You then have to ask yourself the question, If there isn't any Government, if there isn't any er local development pressure of any substance which has brought about the need for this policy, has there been some sort of quantum change in Government policy which has necessitated that we give emphasis to this particular issue. +Well my view of that is that yes we do have new P P G seven which we didn't have at the time of the last structure plan alteration. +But by and large that's just a further clarification of some aspects and it's not a quantum change of policy, all it did is collect together wholesalers of circulars etcetera er and and present them in a in a slightly er more concise way. +But there's no, it seems to me there's no fundamental change in Government policy and if you are only bringing forward er a change in policy er to this alteration on the basis that er there was some extra P P G guidance we wouldn't just be dealing with countryside policy here we would be dealing with a policy about telecommunications, wind farms, a whole raft of things er which which we ought to be really dealing with. +It may be at the end of end of all this that you you are nevertheless convinced that there ought to be a policy. +If that were the case then I would say to you that there must be some exceptions to it and the one exception I am particularly concerned with, and it's up to others to bring forward their particular exceptions, is that of rural affordable housing. +I have more than made that point in my submission. +But it does seem to be again if we're going back to Government guidance who are justifying extra policies to be brought forward to this alteration, it is a serious omission this alteration that there is no policy which deals with rural affordable housing. +Surely that has been one of the major changes of Government policy over the last few years. +So I would say to you as part of this opening submission that there is no need for this policy, it is various, there must be a safe plan for rural affordable housing. +Thank you very much Mr Donson. +Anyone else want to +Hello. +Can I ask Mr Donson for a bit more explanation. +You've argued that the very fact of E two will result in tight boundaries around rural settlements. +Surely where the boundaries are around rural settlements, whether or not there are boundaries around rural settlements, doesn't flow from E two but flows from decisions that district councils are free to make at the moment. +I don't understand your argument that having an E two type policy and without prejudice to what it may say, will make discussions at the local plan level about where boundaries are, more difficult or less difficult. +It doesn't seem to me to affect it in any way. +Well I I erm Roy Donson House Builders' Federation, I I think it will because if you take Hambleton as an example and and and and we've seen in more detail stage one er more detailed justification for the boundaries of some particular settlements in the Hambleton District Plan er based on a based on a landscape analysis. +Now it seems to me that they are challenging on that basis that they can it can be it can be detailed at the local level that individual boundaries can be challenged. +If, however, you simply have a designation which says, This is E two land this is in conformity with the structure plan which, incidentally, hasn't been proved in my view in relation to development pressure nor landscape quality, nevertheless you just say this is E two land, then it seems to me that it's very difficult to argue that it is open countryside. +It may well be open countryside, we can all agree that it's it's it's beyond this it's currently beyond the settlement. +But is the boundary drawn in the right place or not. +Could well be negated because all we're saying is that the counter argument to it is we're simply conforming with the structure plan. +I'm still not sure I understand why the effect of the E two words is to make +Because it applies +the situation's significantly different bearing in mind the primary requirement on the planning system by virtue of P P G one to provide ade adequately for development. +That erm well two things. +One one one first of all the policy is meant to apply to all land which is outside outside of the settlement. +That is what it says in in in the in the explanatory memorandum. +That's the first point. +The second point is that once established that that is open countryside under the terms of this particular policy then it would be very difficult to make a future change to that. +Now it may well be that the whole balance of things is that we're generally okay for the moment but it seems to me that as time goes on and there's a need to review plans and there's a need to make further provision that it would be very very difficult indeed against a blanket policy as opposed to individual justifications around ind er individual settlements. +But surely Mr Donson, E two, and I use your phrase, E two land doesn't carry with it anywhere near the same degree of status er as A O N B or triple S I +I I I I I I +or greenbelt surely? +I I I sir that we we may be able to erm argue that here today it may be very difficult once it's established, especially in the public mind that that that there is that there E two land I fear would be not only interpreted unless there's some justification for me saying this because that's what it says in the in the in the Harrogate Rural Areas Plan. +They they something like, and I'll look it up for the precise wording, that this would be acting like greenbelt. +I think once that sort of phrase gets within the public domain then it would be very difficult to shift that er in the future. +Yes I mean that may be a public perception. +I suppose it would depend very much on how it was presented. +Er now let me ask the Planners whether they see that as the way in which they would be trying to operate this policy through the local plan. +Mr Jewitt. +Er Michael Jewitt, Hambleton District Council. +Er well Chairman I don't think that erm E two erm as proposed will weaken people's ability to challenge our District Local Plan policies. +Our District Local Plan policies will be our interpretation of the application of E two erm in the light of er national planning policy guidance. +Erm the development limits the landscape policies that have been referred to are our response to a number of considerations, erm protection of the open countryside is just one of those. +Now that's our inter purely our interpretation of the policy and clearly that would be open to challenge in the District Local Plan Enquiry. +I don't really see how erm it is going to in any way weaken people's ability to make an effective er objection. +Mr Williamson. +Thank you Chairman. +Er Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. +Really just a point of clarification on one popular matters that erm Mr Thomson raised about er limits of settlement. +I think it seems to me he's missed er the point in the explanatory memorandum that he made. +The relevant statement reads, The policy will fight all land outside existing rural areas other than when is specifically indicated in the structure planning in local plan. +So it takes into account er what what the development plan should be doing which is to make adequate reasonable allocation in the context of the the the broad strategy of the structure plan erm and I don't see any reason to believe that once that has been done erm the remaining plan outside those areas shouldn't be treated as open countryside. +Professor Markham. +Er David Lock sir. +Erm I should like to reinforce and supplement what er Mr Donson has said er from the house building point of view perhaps with a broader perspective of er development than just the house building industry. +I notice from the erm County Council's own er document for today that they remind us that the Panel in looking at the present structure plan in nineteen eighty erm considered whether the county's wish at that time to have this broad erm kind of sweeping up policy was appropriate. +He reminds us of this erm he says that, At that time in nineteen eighty the Panel felt that they weren't convinced it was necessary to include such a sweeping up policy since there's a whole battery of other policies in the plan which were designed to protect erm the special parts of the countryside in the county. +Now what we're hearing today in in the document that's been put in by the County is that their assertion is that since nineteen eighty the changing erm common agriculture policy has meant that more farm land in the county is coming into play for development than was the case in nineteen eighty erm not least of all through set aside and general policies of diversification. +And that the county feels that there is a case for this sweeping up policy now in nineteen ninety three whereas in nineteen eighty the Panel had felt it to be inappropriate. +So the main reason, that's just sorry it's a long way of getting to it sir but, the main change in circumstance that the county is putting forward since nineteen eighty compared with today is that agricultural policy means that more farmland is being diversified and they feel the need at county level to have a sweep-up policy to control that process. +The other reason, there is only two reasons, the other reason the county gives for wanting this Policy E two now in nineteen ninety three erm is that the districts have all asked for it. +A popular expression of demand from the district councils. +Now I think what erm and my feelings on this er are very much er similar to Mr Donson's and I'm grateful for the calculation he has done for us all. +But this particular county is extremely well covered by special forms of countryside protection both through national park, heritage coast, A O N B and as was mentioned in a rather a throwaway fashion but in terms of grade one, two and three A O N agricultural land. +There really isn't much of the county that isn't covered already by those kinds of protections. +And it seems to me perfectly understandable that the local planning authorities in the county would like to take one hundred percent control of the unbuilt upon part of the county. +But the fact of the matter is that that isn't Government policy. +It is not Government policy that all land everywhere should be subject to special constraint. +Explicitly Government policy to the opposite. +So it seemed to me, sir, that we need a very very special justification for this all embracing E two policy which brings me to the other thing to say about it as a general principle. +Erm the questions you were asking just now were testing a possible implication that this policy is so weak in general, no no not weak, so general in its application that it really doesn't get in the way, it's testing that kind of hypothesis, and erm all I can say is from experience in North Yorkshire that, even without this policy since nineteen eighty, the county has been using its assertion of its need to protect the countryside generally as its policy position to stop things happening outside towns and villages and that with this policy in place we could see that a general position of the county maintained and then reinforced. +And somebody has to say that under Section fifty four A if this kind of policy exists in the county structure plan it will be extremely difficult for any proposer erm of development outside built-up areas, existing built-up areas, to proceed. +This is a genuine obstruction in this Policy E two of the most serious kind. +And so in conclusion I looking at it and the exhibitions we've made to you and to the county in the course of the consultation draft is that this county does not need this policy and that it is in fact an insidious and repressive kind of policy that it contrary to national planning guidance and should not be included in the alterations. +Can I pick up on that last point Professor Lock and throw out a question generally in response to what you and Mr Donson have said. +What would be the effect on a Policy E two which said development in the a , applications for development in the open countryside would be determined in accordance with national policy set out in P P G seven. +No not the last bit because there's there's bits of Government policy related to the countryside that isn't in P P G seven it's normally under P P Gs. +I throw that into the arena on the basis that P P G seven exists it is not a policy in the terms of Section fifty four A unless it is made a policy in the terms of Section fifty four A. Nevertheless it is a material consideration in all applications be before the local authority or before the Secretary of State. +If I could just say something, I know Mr I know you will sir, but erm just. +That would work for those kinds of developments which P P G seven is addressing. +Erm what would present problems in real life I think would be developments of a larger kind than that in which a new settlement er might be one strategic site if we had such a policy might be another. +Erm and er P P G seven doesn't really give us a way through on that. +I I was leaving the the sort of exceptions part of it and the game at the moment and asking, because I appreciate that you and Mr Donson for different reasons both want erm a policy that provides for exceptions. +Can sticking with the sort of the general non-strategic development in the countryside, would such a policy work, would it be better than E two as proposed, would it be worse, would it be weaker? +Er I will I will hand over but let me just say this that my instinct is that it a policy expressed in the way you've you've suggested is just superfluous because all you're doing is describing in in a po in upper case letters, the situation as it is and that that my answer is that it would that there would be no need for such a it would be gratuitously ap it's an unnecessary statement. +Oh my reason for including it was Section fifty four A. +To bring P P G seven and so on into the statutory plan +Yes yes. +and therefore make it enforceable. +I I I mean I don't think you need to do that but er that's my response to your question. +Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. +I I I I think the erm situation that Miss Whittaker describes is the situation that we have today. +What what what we have is a serious of local plans which include policies for protecting land and they are working perfectly well in achieving that objective. +And the other material consideration or one of the other material considerations that comes into play for to determine particular applications is indeed Government guidance. +So that's exactly the position that we have and there had been no proof as far as I can see to to demonstrate that in fact the present situation is not working. +Patently the present situation is working and therefore that's part of it and what I would say is that that this additional policy if it isn't necessary because there there isn't any development pressure, then what is its purpose. +I would submit its purpose is another piece of anti-development er strategy for for this particular county. +I think there is there there is there is an issue that it isn't as simple as just where are we today and and and where are the boundaries of the settlement as Mr Williamson said. +We've got to consider the situation of some form of flexibility and it presupposes that if you have a policy in which the settlements are drawn and I suppose I I think they will be tightly drawn, development yes is allocated in accordance with the structure plan. +But that and then the rest of the land is is open countryside E two land. +It presupposes that that is right that those boundaries have been rightly drawn essentially for all time. +Or or certainly in the long term. +And erm I think that that is a very dangerous situation to get ourselves in even in a county where the emphasis is on to protecting er er on environmental protection. +I still feel it is a dangerous proposition to be in and we could end up in a situation where development comes to a full stop. +Mr Heselton and then Mr Collier. +Thank you sir. +Terry Heselton Sel Selby District. +Erm I think my answer to the to the questions being thrown out by by the Senior Inspector is is that surely Government policy is to protect the countryside for its own sake, and and why is it therefore wrong for a county with erm areas of acknowledged environmental importance to try and give expression to that in in its structure plan. +Erm the the point I really wanted to make erm is response to to a comment from Mr Donson and and also Profe Professor Lock erm it it goes back to erm to my constraints map of the county, the one I submitted er as an appendix to my erm submissionary inspector of the H one issue, erm which rather unfortunately throughout the course of the examination has been er exploited by a number of other parties constr for their own purpose. +But it it now gives me the opportunity to use it er for the purpose in which +Have you charged a fee for that? +Well yeah it has crossed my mind. +But basically turning to the Selby situation erm I mean here here we have a district that doesn't have any areas of acknowledged national or landscape im importance at all but as as I mentioned previously that's not to say that there aren't valuable areas of countryside within the district and areas which to use use the words of of P P G advice are valued by the people that live and and work in the district and and also by visitors. +Erm at various times throughout the course of the enquiry Selby seems to be gathering a bit of a growing reputation that that the district have let it rip or or the or the collecting point for the remainder of the county. +And and I think that's why this particular policy is very important to the Selby district because it allows us to address the balance between meeting what I would call the justifiable development but also the equally important environmental consideration. +Thank you. +Mr Collier. +David Collier National Farmers' Union. +It seems to to me that erm Policy E two does not add erm much if anything to to Government policy which after all is fairly comprehensive in its dealings with development in the countryside. +Not only in P P G seven but as has been pointed out in other erm guidance notes such as four erm and three. +Perhaps the er chief of a Policy E two in an acceptable form is that it would give a clear signal to the district that it would not be appropriate to have a policy on rural diversification or in in development in the countryside more generally, which is stricter than Government guidance. +And and so we certainly don't have strong views either way as to the need for the policy in principle but I can certainly see an advantage in having a policy in the right terms. +It seems to me that E two as it is currently drafted is a great deal less comprehensive than P P G seven and a great deal more restrictive, possibly as a consequence of being less comprehensive. +And I I thought I'd put to Mr Donson and Mr Loc Professor Lock to the district councils. +Mr Earle. +Thank you Chairman. +Erm first of all if I may just er point out that the example I put with my paper that I have submitted today, and I thank you for the er indulgence in allowing me to produce it so late, was simply that there was one particular appeal of decision where an inspector remarked particularly on the lack of a local or a development plan policy relating to generally relating to the countryside. +In other words it wasn't the one and only example where we felt this gap but it's simple one where remarked on it. +If I may just refer you sir to er my appendix which it actually the last page of your papers erm er if you see on it is actually page numbered thirty one and it's paragraph thirteen thirty six at the very back of the papers. +Erm and the inspector simply pointed there that the county er the council has quoted no approved policies to protect the countryside for its own sake. +Well the plain fact of the matter was Chairman there were there were none to quote to him and erm we see the the structure plan Policy E two er as fulfilling a bridging role between national policy and the more specific guidance which would necessarily be contained in local plans. +The county at first stage did try of course to produce some exceptions and and I think all the districts found ones they liked and ones they didn't like and I think quite reasonably the county said well er possibly the role of E two is simply to produce this broad policy goal and er this will er and as Richmondshire see it it'll be er for us to refine it as we see fit at district level. +And I have pointed out in my papers that you must bear in mind perhaps that er quite a number of Rich er quite a number of the districts in North Yorkshire are of county scale in their sheer size and that therefore it is not inappropriate that at that level that the policies would be refined. +Mr Sedgewick. +Sedgewick Michael Courcier and Partners. +We've approached this from a a slightly different angle and recognized that local planning experience within the county now and in the forthcoming district plans shows that there are going to be policies that restrict development in the open country. +Therefore my clients would much rather deal with this at a strategic level than in individual district plans. +But to do that we need to be sure that the policy is appropriate, does reflect national policy. +As it stands the districts seem to be wanting their cake and eat it in that they would like er a policy restricting development in the open countryside but they don't want it to come with baggage that is specific which says what the exceptions should be. +I don't think that that is the right way forward. +If we are going to have Policy E two then it does need to be very clear as to the direction that the the strategic direction that the districts need to take with regard open land and that is the the subject of the the other questions that you've put before us. +Thank you. +Can I +Sorry. +come back to Mr Searle +Mr Earle. +Earle I beg your pardon, and I hesitate to raise any appeal decision. +However, if I can use this example. +It doesn't seem to me from what I read of page thirty one of that inspector's report that he was in any different position by the absence of the Policy E two than he would be if he'd got it. +Yes I it's a it's I've contemplated because at the end of the day any appeal decision was er one in favour of the council's position. +Erm and I have to er pick up the point made opposite that the protection has been pretty good over the last few years without the policy. +That it is simply being this is why we feel that the role of the structure policies is to provide that er into local plan policies. +But there is nothing anywhere in the P P G twelve in particular which says that before a district can have policy in their local plan there must be a lead policy in the structure plan. +Is there? +No. +And within a couple of years districts will have district wide local plan coverage we hope. +The er the county council came forward with these policies as a result of comments that er districts made a number of years ago and perhaps er over a passage of time erm makes at least validity your point but I I remain of the the view that there is in the there is nothing in the county structure plan that sets out the basic objective of protecting the countryside and still feel that's a valid objective within the structure plan erm within the structure plan er context. +I notice Mr Allenby is nodding his head. +Yes Chairman. +David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. +Erm really just to reinforce that point. +Erm Mr Donson was quite right that in the absence of erm structure plan policies er the districts have moved forward and prepared their own countryside protection policies er and these have been effective to a a greater or lesser degree. +However I think in my view anyway this doesn't negate the point that the protection of the countryside is a strategic issue and should properly be covered in the structure plan. +Erm there is then a case for that policy to be covered in the structure plan and of course in local plans and at the local plan stage there is an opportunity for councils to er interpret the structure plan policy to add er exceptions if they so wish and for those to be tested at a local plan enquiry. +Mr Donson. +Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. +We've erm we've had quotes from from from Government policies from P P G seven's been mentioned twice quoting paragraph two point one protection er that the countryside should be safeguarded for its own sake and I know that there is a tendency to quote Government policy to back your own case. +But erm it it it would seem to me that erm that the the basis of Government policy in writing to the countryside is para one ten of P P G seven, that talks about a balance essentially. +And I also rely on my evidence of of quoting another custodian of Government policy namely the Prime Minister and its current Prime Minister erm who makes the point that proposals for development must not be turned down simply because it is the safest course. +But also more importantly within that says that these, The siting of development is essentially something to be decided locally. +And I think that that is very important. +And that seems to me to go against having a strategic policy but what we're talking about is the interface at a local level between development and and protecting the countryside and that's quite rightly where the decisions should be made. +It is not appropriate that we have a blanket policy at the strategic level and the need for this particular policy it would seem to me is unproven. +Can I, Mr Donson and I are in danger of getting into a game of seeing who can next pick the most relevant bit out of a P P G. +Yes. +Nevertheless I shall continue. +P P G twelve? +P P G twelve paragraph five fifty three, reactions from the county and district councils please as to how Policy E two satisfies that advice and what follows in that part of the P P G. + +Do you want do you want to come back Mr Williams do you want to pick up this point or something else? +Well it it perhaps picks up this point +While your colleagues are all perusing P P G twelve. +It is was really erm the question of how many other P P Gs could be taken as read er if we decide that P P G seven could just be left on its own and not included in the structure plan. +Er it seems to me that erm there are probably quite a few policies in the structure plan that could be omitted if we just took the all the P P Gs as read. +Erm as far as I'm concerned Mr Donson's point that there are significant areas of the county which are covered by other policies, national parks, heritage coast, high quality agricultural land, Erm that may be true but there are significant areas which are not covered by those policies and it seems to me that if erm the county structure plan is going to provide a strategy then it should be relatively comprehensive. +And for that reason alone I would say that erm Policy E two is necessary and should be included. +Thank you. +Mr Heselton. +Thank you sir. +Terry Heselton Selby District. +Er quite fortuitously the question thrown out by the senior inspector anticipates the point that I wanted to make that that surely it's the structure plan that sets the strategic context and it and it's wholly appropriate for local plans to put local interpretation on that. +Both in terms of er bringing forward more detailed criteria based policies but also determining specifically the areas to which the policy would apply. +So, for example, by designation village envelopes you would give clear guidance as to what constituted countryside and what didn't. +And equally by bringing forward other proposals and allocations in the plan you would make it clear where proposals wouldn't work. +And then that could even em em embrace a new settlement for example. +Mr Williamson. +Thank you Chairman. +Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. +Chairman having read again the relevant paragraphs P P G twelve to which er the senior inspector referred, I I think it's entirely consistent with that that the county should seek to erm include a policy now in the plan which in effect seeks to to clarify the basic intentions of the structure plan in in regard to the attitude to development in in open countryside. +I think obviously I would agree with a lot of what what the districts have said there about the strategic importance of having such a policy. +Chairman I think going to the points that Mr Donson made, there have been major changes. +I think it's very true to say major changes since nineteen eighty when our plan was approved. +Erm we have er increasing pressures it seems to me for er a lot of er non-agricultural developments in in the countryside. +Wind farms, M S As , golf courses, associated hotels etcetera, development major recreation policies, and I think it the plan needs to have a a generic policy which addresses the issue of what is likely to be appropriate and acceptable in the countryside as a framework for the development of more detailed policies in in local plans. +Mr Donson. +Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. +We've just had a golf course defined as a strategic issue and I think that in a way goes goes goes to the heart of what this is what this is all about. +That it is it it doesn't seem to me that we there is a strategic case for this for this policy. +That the strategy's working perfectly well. +Er and and and because they are struggling to bring forward examples it seems to me that that rather proves the point. +No one on this side has suggested that we don't have policies in the structure plan because we've got P P G guidance. +That's that's that's not that's not part of part of our er our proposal. +The proposal really is what er do you have a policy which is not in line with P P G guidance. +And it seems to me that this Policy E two is not in line with with strategic guidance and if you're not if you're having that are there some special circumstances that mean that you have to explain particularly what it is that you you have to do. +And that seems to me equally not proven. +Er and and on all counts the necessity for bringing forward this policy, given the existing controls that exists, given the controls that will exist in the normal operation of the development plan system, development plan lead system should I say, erm mean that that this policy is totally unnecessary. +Mr Broughton. +Frank Broughton Ministry of Agriculture. +In principle is er not opposed to this policy er as we've made clear in our erm responses to the county provided that the wording is in our view right. +We still regard the present form of the policy and the explanatory wording as being rather too restrictive. +As far as the wording of the actual policy itself is concerned I think we would er certainly prefer er wording on the lines of strict control, in other words quoting er P P G rather than the not normally permitted approach. +Er and the accompanying memorandum although it has er gone through several alterations which have improved it in our view is is still over negative we would see. +As a whole it doesn't reflect the the encouragement to diversification in P P G seven or the er we think the recent erm quite vigorous policy statements by the Secretary of State about the importance of erm employment creation in rural areas. +As far as the exceptions to the policy is concerned, we, again I I wouldn't say we had a strong feeling on this, but on balance I think it that if it is considered that they are needed they would probably be better dealt with in a separate policy. +One final point I would make is is that there has been a a little bit of an impression given I think in some comments this morning that we have a a virtual free for all as regards the availability of agricultural land and er the marked change that it has been said to occur since nineteen eighty. +And I would just erm remind everyone that er the clear guidance is still there in P P G seven about the considerably weight attached to protection of better quality agricultural land er and that the structure plan policy A three still remains in force, a very clear and strong policy. +It's true that the protection has perhaps focused more on the higher quality land but that it is still there under clear policy guidance. +Thank you. +Is it is it Mr Feist? +Is that how you pronounce it? +Thank you. +Could you announce announce your +Yes. +Mike Michael Feist . +. +Sorry? +Michael Feist Countryside Commission York and Humberside Regional Office. +I think one of the main reasons why we would support the inclusion of a Policy erm E two in the structure plan is because North Yorkshire is adamantly a very rural area and therefore whatever happened in that rural area must be a strategic issue. +And therefore in our view it is appropriate that there should be a structure plan policy that gives broad guidance on how development proposed is affected in that rural areas could apply. +Now there are various ways in which a policy could be expressed but the policy that's come up erm from North Yorkshire and the fact that it is deported by the district who would be defining that policy and interpreting it in view of their local circumstances in due course, I think er makes it a powerful factor in arguing why it should be included in the structure plan as to whether such a policy may or may not be necessary. +And certainly I can think of very few other structure plans that do not attempt in some way to er give some form of er recognition to the er Government policy as set out in P P G seven. +So I think it is a matter of erm importance for the structure plan its inclusion er and I think to put the an answer to one of the questions that was put earlier, if it is not to be left to the district to decide on where development is or is not appropriate in open countryside as defined in the structure plan policy, who it is intended could be making the decision on where development would be appropriate. +Thank you. +Mr Saunders. +Les Saunders Department of the Environment. +We have made no formal objection to the to to Policy E two in indicating in in many respects the department is er regional office is content for the issues to be erm as to the need for the strategic policy to be debated E I P. +However if the the panel was to find in favour of Policy E two er the regional office have reservations regarding the the the tone and tenor of of the wording in the policies. +You've had various references to to P P G seven, er I'm sure if we went through all the various proofs of evidence you could reconstruct the entire of P P G seven. +Er the difficulties with P P G seven and the countryside are exemplified in paragraph one ten which Mr Donson refers to as his guiding principle, in one single paragraph it manages to include three separate uses of the word countryside, wider countryside, the countryside and open countryside, indicating perhaps some of the difficulties in in erm identifying exactly what area it is that would be covered by a Policy E two. +The regional office's particular concerns are that the wording of the policy appears unduly restrictive because within policy P P G within P P G seven itself, no only as is the reference to protecting the countryside, there is also considerable reference to rural diversification and promoting the rural economy where as as erm the county council have said that that P P G refers to most of that development taking place er within are anticipated to take place within the rural villages and and small towns in the countryside. +However, the policy itself or the wording of the of of the policy refers to exceptionally in referring to development needing to be in the countryside. +It's difficult er it's the regional office's view that that is open to er an over restrictive interpretation. +It's clearly a matter of balance between the various elements erm in considering erm proposals for or development in the countryside. +Erm and the principle of para one of P P G one para five of P P G one applies that that erm there's no good reason for turning for for refusing applications for development in the countryside. +The fact that it's in the countryside shouldn't be a reason in itself for for refusing permission. +Therefore, if if the panel were minded to accept the need for Policy E two we'd have we we consider that there needs to be changes to the wording er in in order erm to make it less restrictive. +Thank you for that. +Mr Williamson, can I ask for your confirmation that the reason that the Secretary of State deleted Policy E two in the nineteen eighty structure plan was one of the many reasons under the heading, General, there is no specific reference in the notice of approval to the deletion of this policy and therefore I am assuming it fell for one of the reasons given in paragraphs five point two to five point four five. +Is that correct please? +It's not listed there. +But it's nowhere listed in any of the other proposed modifications the Secretary of State or any of the other modifications the Secretary of State made. +Chairman, Ken Williamson er North Yorkshire County Council. +Er I thought I had my copy of the certainly the panel's report of nineteen eighty available, it it seems to have disappeared somewhere. +My understanding of what what the panel said and what the what the Secretary of State agreed was that neither the panel nor the Secretary of State disagreed with the erm the general sense of the policy but felt that that sense was er embodied and and was able to to be applied through the erm provisions of other policies in the plan at that time. +Er E one was mentioned I believe and er but the main emphasis was on the range of agricultural policies A one I think to A four. +So it seemed to us that the the general sense and purpose of the policy was was not in a sense disputed but that er in order to avoid a leng what was considered at the time to be perhaps unnecessary detail and going into erm too much detail that er we felt that the agricultural land policies could be left to to perform the sort of main objective that we were seeking through, I think it was E three at the time, was was the proposed policy. +There is nothing in the notice of approval which says that. +No I think erm para five three I think was probably one of the er unless the panel found that some of policies were unduly restricted and detailed or er which were not a struc structural significance erm yeah probably the first rather than the second reference. +What unduly restricted? +And detailed. +And detailed. +I think because a the sense +Do you have +at the time the erm, as I go back to what I said before about the the the reliance which was then place on on the agricultural policies +Yes. +it seems to me to perform the functions which we were er seeking through through the proposed Policy three. +to me that it would be perverse of us to fall into the trap if we were to do so of endorsing Policy E two and not know that what we were endorsing was in fact what the Secretary of State specifically rejected on the grounds perhaps that it was unduly restricted or detailed or inappropriate for some of those other reasons that are set out in the earlier part of that notice of approval. +Chairman the erm proposals in the what was the submitted plan in reference seventy nine read er Policy three, Subject to the provisions of Policies I four I eight and I nine there will be a general presumption against development in open countryside except for the purposes of agricultural policy and recreation and other uses appropriate to a countryside location. +It does read a bit like a greenbelt policy. +That does in fact +But erm Policy E two was also deleted at the same time. +Yes erm Policy E two was at that time was er relating to programme of tree planting er . +I can guess . +That was obviously er. +Could we trouble you to submit those two policies as they were submitted. +E two and E three yes certainly. +Thank you. +I think that might be a useful point to break for coffee. +While and that will give you a chance. +Can we resume at twenty past eleven please? +Mr Collier? +Can you just hold fire gentlemen a moment? +It it seems to me we've spent about an hour and ten minutes or so almost shadow boxing over this particular policy erm and we we keep running into well running both matters together and it seems right and proper that we should do that. +There is obviously a divergence of view as to whether there's a need for this policy. +Erm there's also a view been expressed that well if you're going to have it it may need some more guidance than is presently written into it. +I think that's Mr Sedgewick's view if you have it. +Erm the other point of course, this is raised in matter B, as it's written is it considered to be restrictive too restrictive er and third and secondly, is it giving you er guidance which properly reflects national guidance. +And Mr Donson er has said that he doesn't think it, it in fact exceeds that. +So can sort of we point the discussion in in that direction but before we do Miss Whittaker has a corollary to push with that point. +Thank you Chairman. +I think in fact what I would like in particular from the local planning authorities around the table is given Mr Donson's view that E two as drafted is more restrictive than national guidance P P G seven or any other P P G, what is it in North Yorkshire that justifies that departure from national guidance. +This in my view is a critical determinate of leaving aside the question of fifty of fif the application of section fifty four A that determines whether the policy is required. +Mr Earle. +Thank you Chairman. +We've now moved on in part of question your question five B and erm in my response to that I'm suggesting, and I hope it's not just semantics, picking up the point made just before we broke for coffee, is that there's all sorts of things called the countryside, and this policy is is directed at the open countryside. +Now I've heard about you know the question of definition of where the edge of the open countryside is and that's a valid point but if we if we have in mind the open countryside, it seems to me that P P G seven does clearly differentiate between the countryside, the countryside, rural areas and the open countryside where it refers to development being strictly controlled. +Now this phrase strictly controlled erm I I I wanted to ask it myself because I you know trying to push it through to what it actually means I think the county council if you like has taken it at what may be face value and said well strictly controlled must mean something. +It must mean that there is a er an approach that says that development in the open countryside isn't normally permissible erm unless unless unless. +But at least it I don't see that that that E two is inconsistent with the phrase development in the open countryside being strictly controlled. +Because then the P P G seven then goes on to make the implicit point about other things that in the countryside such as the small villages and towns and other development opportunities, do occur which provide the rural diversification and employment development that is that is required by the P P G. +Mr Williamson . +Oh I've lost my er +Ah, it's alright. +Your billy do then. +Thank you Chairman. +Ken Williamson North Yorkshire County Council. +Er Chairman I I really have to say I don't I don't really agree with the assertion that the policy is is essentially more restrictive than than er P P G seven will indicate and I would endorse what er Patrick Earle has said in in that regard. +Erm the policy that we were putting forward is is essentially not the one that er was was debated in nineteen eight. +It seem to me erm that was er much more intended to be much more restrictive I think than than I would suggest our policy E two is now. +Erm it it in a sense er smack of sort of greenbelt policy I think . +I don't think our er proposed policy two does that. +In considering or interpreting what strict control means for a start erm do we actually mean, does P P G seven actually mean strictly control? +If so what what does that imply? +It's not sort of er moderate control or a little bit of control it is strict control. +Er and we are talking about open countryside outside erm rural settlements and if you look at the wider countryside and that includes in my judgement er the pattern of settlement which is where most people actually do live in in the countryside. +They're they're not living out in the in the sticks the vast majority of people, they actually live in in settlements. +The policy er doesn't prevent or doesn't seem to prevent er proper development which is associated with settlements in rural areas. +And there are other policies in the structure plan erm you know we shouldn't be looking at this policy just in isolation. +We have a whole host of policies, some of which give guidance on erm controls in the open countryside but other ones actually sort of seek a more positive attitude to the problems and the needs of rural diversification. +Erm I've mentioned one or two some of the industrial land policies as they er as they still stand policy in in structure plan policy I eight I think and particular policy I six doesn't preclude reasonable and necessary development taking place in rural areas. +If one looks through P P G seven erm one sees lots of references to villages and settlements and erm more activity taking place, more people moving into those settlements. +When we look at the open countryside it doesn't really to my mind say a great deal about er what is what should be considered acceptable. +Erm para one ten I mean it talks about the countryside being able to accommodate many forms of development without detriment. +It then goes on to say of course new development in relation should be sensi sensitively related to existing settlement patterns. +And there are other references throughout to, what I reply is a clear direction that most developments should be in erm in or closely related to settlements and, of course, that will be a matter addressed through through local plans. +The structure plans giving broad guidance +Is it your intention that Policy E two should be interpreted as saying anything different from what is in section two of P P G seven which covers +Chairman I think we +farm diversification, housing, horses, agricultural development. +I think probably the implications and a lot of people have er picked up on this as the policy has developed, is that er well they're they're concerned that the policy is in fact too flexible now because of how it is being interpreted by other people. +Certainly this policy is not intended in any way to erm prevent what P P G seven actually seeks er to promote in in the open countryside, ie outside the areas which we would expect most development to take place in. +Certainly the the re-use of er adaptation of existing buildings and would have thought that wouldn't be er er something which the county council would want to prevent. +And I don't think the policy er as we proposed it er actually does prevent that. +As far as the exceptions Mr Donson is rightly concerned about erm affordable housing. +The county council is equally interested and concerned about that. +What we have in terms of the advice for the open countryside outside the areas that would normally be looked at and allocated for development is the rural exceptions policy that forms part of P P G three. +Erm this policy in my to my mind doesn't actually er exclude those exceptions being made. +That would be a in the context of our policy a perfectly acceptable addition to the countryside if you like. +Provided that I mean we're not talking about rural exceptions being erm appropriate everywhere and anywhere. +Even with the exceptions policy there's still consideration of the the impact of that development and whether it would be acceptable or not and would be treated in in those terms I'm sure by the districts. +And I'm sure the districts a lot has been said about er it being the districts' view that well you know we've got this policy so we will we will exercise a high level of restraining to protect the countryside against all comers etcetera etcetera. +I don't really think that's a fair reflection of what er what what the district councils as I understand it er would intend to do. +Do I take it your answer to my question is no? +Yes. +Thank you. +Mr Jewitt and the Professor Lock. +Er Michael Jewitt Hambleton District Council. +Er there are three points erm I'd like to make. +Erm the first point erm er Mr Donson's Mr Donson's comments. +Erm Mr Donson seemed to accept that it was er right for local planning authorities through their district wide open plans to give effect to policies in P P G seven for protecting the countryside for its own sake and he er mentioned landscape policies and then development minutes amongst other things. +In the context of those comments my question really, Isn't it right er for local authorities to expect that there is some strategic basis for their policies in the structure plan? +Erm and I I can't help wondering, this is perhaps something that Mr Donson may well want to come back to, erm what Mr Donson's position would be at subsequent local plan inquiries where local plans were to contain such policies and there was wasn't to be a strategic basis er for those policies. +And I would, and this is my second point, I would point out to erm erm point out to the panel erm that the structure plan at present erm only erm mentions in landscape terms in countryside terms those at statutory designated areas. +The rest of the countryside is in effect erm a white area which tends which to me erm in a county context tends to convey the impression that er countryside issues do not matter across the rest of the countryside and that's clearly not the intention of Government advice and it's clearly not the intention behind the statutory of the structure plan which has a strong environmental basis. +I think it's right and proper that there is a strategic policy which erm emphasizes protection for the countryside across the whole of the area. +The third point er relates to erm is the policy stricter than Government guidance? +Erm my view is that it's erm it's very flexible. +Erm the margin of flexibility in the policy has yet to be determined because it will be local plans which give effect to erm erm what is erm what development needs to the statement of what development needs to be in the countryside. +And that's something that can be debated through local plan inquiries. +But there is the mar there is considerable potential for flexibility in the policy and that would be determined my local planning authorities in the light of P P G seven but also in the light of er local circumstances and conditions which is quite right and proper. +Professor Lock. +In the spirit of erm words after coffee sir, er no more shadow boxing some straight shots here. +Erm in response to er Miss Whittaker's question we did not hear of anything special in this county that justifies the policy in excess of that exceeds should I say erm national guidance. +There was no answer given to that question by anybody. +Secondly we have not heard of anything that has changed in this county since nineteen eighty sufficient to warrant or justify in this alteration the addition of a policy the effect of which, one one with a similar effect having been thrown out at that time. +And thirdly, there is a Government obstruction they don't like policies which are presumptions against development. +Policy E two as proposed is a very common form of phrasing used by planning authorities to circumvent the Government objection to presumption against policies. +The policy as proposed says, Development in the open countryside will not normally be permitted. +If that is not in practice a policy which is presuming against development in the open countryside I don't know what is. +Fourth, we've heard from Mr Williamson his interpretation of what strictly controlled means. +The phrase from P P G seven. +And what we can see is that Mr Williamson's interpretation of strictly controlled means not normally be permitted. +And that is not strict control that is not normally be permitted. +Strictly controlled should mean consented after the most careful deliberation and under the most carefully contrived er conditions. +North Yorkshire's interpretation I repeat is not strictly controlled means not normally be permitted. +And none of this would matter Chairman I don't think er whether E two whether E two was in or out of the structure plan only matters in so far as it bears a part of the making of local plans and the making of planning applications in the county. +On the first point about the making of local plans, we're hearing that this policy has the great support, in fact was requested by all the districts in the county. +I don't think they've seen it's obverse side. +Having E two in place is alright for the local planning authority that wants a local plan that has no development in the countryside in it. +You would be drawing sucker from E two in your anti-development policies in your local plan. +So that works doesn't it? +But supposing a local authority in its local plan wanted to allocate land for development in what is currently open countryside. +And as I was saying to Terry Heselton over coffee it could be Selby looking for its two hundred and fifty hectares. +You're never going to find those in existing towns and villages. +Now supposing a local authority that wants to go into a open countryside in its local plan, E two would stand in the way of that. +Such allocation would be contrary to county structure plan Policy E two. +Now what we could say is well there would be trust. +We have to trust the districts can trust the county the county can trust the districts and that in practice they would make this work at local plan level. +For the development industry this that sort of concept of trust isn't safe enough. +Section fifty four A makes your local plan structure plans extremely important governors on what happens on the ground and it's for that underlying reason that we find E two unjustified and reasonably repressive and an unreasonable extension of constraint by the county on the freedom of districts in their local plans to choose the geography of their of land allocations. +Mr Earle and then Mr Donson. +Thank you Chairman. +Patrick Earle Richmondshire District Council. +Erm I wonder if can just er continue slightly the debate about the nineteen eighty erm decision to exclude the then Policy E three. +Erm I I'm speaking from recollection sir at having looked into this in the context of planning appeal which is now a little while ago, but it did strike me at the time that er there was a definite feeling that the agricultural issue was very strong protection of ag agricultural land throughout was a strong issue up to er the mid nineteen eighties and certainly was up to the time in late seventy nine early nineteen eighty and er therefore there was a feeling that Policy E three simply er was supplementary to those other policies. +Also at the time I don't think that in terms of national recognition that the idea of protecting the countryside for its own sake was terribly well developed. +Erm to an extent it it was er on the back of protec protection of agricultural land. +Now of course during the nineteen eighties the protection of agricultural land for its own sake er lost weight as an issue and the relevant structure plan policies er lost effective weight and were seen to do so but Government policy was quite explicit in the nineteen eighty seven circular, I think it was num number sixteen, was that although agricultural land protection as a farming resource was diminished as an issue, the protection of the countryside for its own sake was not. +And, therefore, the sit situation where you find yourself today erm is not the same as it was I think in nineteen eighty. +Erm the second point I'd like to make is er we danced round this phrase presumption this morning, I've tried to avoid using it because its its it gets all sorts of er connotations going. +I read in the Planning Press that the Newbury District Council managed to browbeat the the Department of Environment into accepting the phrase in their in a local plan, so perhaps presumptions are er the word presumption may or may not be acceptable, but then to extend it into saying well you can't even say, not normally be acceptable, and, not normally be er agreeable, for any sort of policy er means that strategic policies or general policy approaches are simply ruled out ri right across the board. +And I'm sure that's not really er acceptable. +And finally, if I may, the question you raised earlier and I didn't respond to it as erm I might of done, er the question about whether North Yorkshire is particularly unique. +Well plainly erm whatever the er Yorkshire people may think and I was born in Nottinghamshire, erm that it is you know you cannot say it is absolutely unique. +But I would like to refer you to the erm notice of approval of the nineteen eighty structure plan where I think erm there there is a phrase to the effect that a policy of broad restraint of development is erm erm er accepted by the was accepted by the then Secretary of State on the basis of the high environmental quality of the county. +And that doesn't just refer to the A N Bs and the national parks and the rest of it. +Erm important though they are they do not cover the the great majority of the county. +The countryside in the county is is undesignated area erm outside the area er the the main designation. +But that that phrase in the structure plan approved in nineteen eighty I think does give some weight to to what we're trying to address this morning. +Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. +I think mo a lot of the points I wanted to make were were covered by Professor Lock but I would just draw the panel's attention to erm the policy that was rejected. +And if you take into account that the words, A general presumption against, were common phraseology in policies in the nineteen eighties and we now use the er play against presumption we now have to use the phrase, Will not normally be permitted. +I would suggest to you that given that and also the wording in the justification under the old Policy E three, that in fact you could hardly get a tissue paper between this policy that is now before you and the previous policy. +They are in fact almost one and the same and they use er one and the same justification. +And so it seems to me that what has got to be proven, and I come back to the point, is that something has changed and we haven't heard anything that has changed er in in that time. +In fact the justification er for the present policy actually talks about erm the erm, This policy has generally been successfully implemented across the county. +That is concentrating development in partic particular places. +So it seems to me that there is nothing new there is no further justification and er on those grounds alone there is no reason to have this policy. +Mr Heselton and Mr Allenby. +Thank you sir. +Terry Heselton Sel Selby District. +Erm it seems it seems to me that wha what's crucial here is the er the spirit behind the policy or or rather the the way in which it's going to be interpreted. +And I'd I'd like to turn to the point that erm Professor Lock raised in in terms of the potential clash of interest if if you like between the restraint of of the policy and the er the development proposals as regards Sel Selby district. +But nothing has has really changed it's surely implicit that green field sites will have to be released to meet the justifiable needs for development erm that there are ways clearly to minimize the impact by by first redeveloping the existing sites by by releasing sites in less sensitive locations, or developing sites that have minimal impact on on existing settle settlements or patterns of development un unless in exceptional circumstances there is for example the need for a new settlement. +But I don't I don't think that the situation's any any different with the proposed policy as regards existing situations. +But clearly it it's quite an important point so er so of course I'd be interested to to hear the county council's view on on the point raised. +Erm one possible way round the I suppose would be for the county council to amend the explan explanatory memorandum er as a matter of urgency and to bring forward in it er or or at least to acknowledge some of the the matters that have been raised. +Such as, for example , erm the affordable housing issue and others. +Because clearly in in debating this policy I think a number of the districts have also raised diff different points of interest in terms of what should be recognized as exceptional development and we we went down that that road a couple of years ago and unfortunately the districts came to the conclusion that it wasn't appropriate to try and list the exceptional circumstances. +I mean in some respects that's almost an imposs an impossible task it's simple impracticable. +As soon as you publish a list for the exceptional circumstances it it will be overtaken by er evolving new forms of development for example. +So I don't I don't think anything anything's really changed. +There there may well be a way round the problem by amending the explanatory mem memorandum. +I I think Selby District Selby District's attitude is is that we're we're perfectly happy. +We we think we see eye to eye with the county council on this er provided it is clearly in the the acceptable needs of the district will be met by taking areas of countryside. +Erm but I would, as I say, I would like to hear from the county on. +Yes Chairman. +David Allenby Harrogate Borough Council. +It's a similar point to the one that Terry Heselton has has just made. +I think my impression was that er Professor Lock was suggesting that because of Policy E two local planning authorities would have some difficulty in in making allocations to meet the structure plan requirement. +Now I don't think that's the case. +Erm it's obviously right and proper that a local planning authority if it's releasing green field sites has to justify why those sites should be released. +And that's er that's a process that we've just been through with the Harrogate and Knaresborough local plan. +We have released sites er in the countryside and we expect the countryside protection policy to apply outside the urban areas and outside of the sites that we've allocated for development. +So I I don't think that er would would cause a problem. +I'd like to pick up on a point that er that Roy Donson made also right at the outset of of the discussion and that was that there's no evidence that local authorities have have faced pressure for development in the countryside. +And that simply isn't the case. +You know we've had intense pressure for development in the countryside, certainly in Harrogate district. +Erm quite recently, for example, we've had applications for motorway service areas, that's just one example. +And that sort of application has to be considered in the context of countryside protection policies. +The need for development has to be established and so erm I refute the fact totally that there hasn't been pressure for development in the countryside, that's certainly not the case. +Er finally I'd like to reinforce what I said this morning about the strategic importance of a countryside protection policy. +It's a matter of fact that the strategy of the county council is to locate development as far as possible in and around the main settlements of the county. +The corollary of that is that there shouldn't be development by and large in the countryside. +And it's right therefore that a policy should express that explicitly within the structure plan. +Mr Sedgewick and then Mr Rudd. +Sedgewick Michael Courcier and Partners. +Er my answer to Miss Whittaker's originating question, there has been no argument at all that the area where this policy will operate, which is the open countryside outside of the A O N Bs and national parks, has got any special character that requires a more restrictive approach than national policy. +Indeed Mr Mr Williamson has argued that the policy is not more restrictive than national policy, it is clearly not in the county council's mind that a more restrictive approach is needed. +Moving moving on from that point, it does seems to me that the policy clearly is more restrictive than P P G seven and arguably in some respects it's more restrictive than greenbelt. +At least in the greenbelt development that is appropriate to rural areas would be permitted. +In the proposed E two the only development that would be permitted is that which needs to be in the open countryside and that's a much more rigorous test. +Within the greenbelt policy there are there is a list of exceptions, a private strategic level. +I think it is appropriate if you are to have an E two policy it is appropriate to apply restrictions to to identify the exceptions in that. +I I if it can be done in the greenbelt policy it must be done in E two and there can be no argument that it is not too detailed a matter in greenbelt policy but too detailed a matter in E two. +Development in the open countryside would not normally be permitted is the way that the the draft policy's guidance. +P P G seven para one ten says that new building in the open countryside would be strictly controlled. +Development is far more than new building. +Mr Williamson has recognized that the adaptation of existing buildings would be allowed. +The policy does not say that, the policy put a strict limitation on all forms of development. +As I said earlier I do not think that this is an area where the district councils should be given a completely free rein to interpret the matter within their own local plans. +There has to be a strategic theme particularly in counties such as North Yorkshire which is predominantly rural, it is a major area of planning control, fully merits strategic control and that strategic control must be applied or if it if it is to be applied in the structure plan if you do agree that there should be a Policy E two, then the control of development must be applied consistently over the districts. +I think within the terms of er P P G seven the scope for discretion is limited. +The P P G seven has a very clear theme about supporting rural diversification, it is positively worded P P G. I think the restrictive nature of the existing policy and the district's support for that is something that cannot run forward in the structure plan and be consistent with national policy. +Thank you. +Thank you very much. +Can I pick up on a point that you've just made Mr Sedgewick and also points made by those on your right about exceptions and presumptions. +The only place in which a presumption now appears in national guidance is in P P G two and it'll be it is no secret that erm P P G two will be the subject of a revision. +It seems to me however that the terms presumption and exception as national guidance stands at the moment go together in the context of greenbelt. +And if we are not looking for something which is as restrictive as greenbelt we ought neither to be expressing in whatever terms a presumption or describing something which is permissible as an exception. +Would the objections of those on my left this end of the table, if the panel were minded to have an E two policy, be overcome by, Development will only be permitted provided that, and they set a criteria? +That's how you finish the sentence +Erm yeah I certainly would encourage you down that path Miss Whittaker that if it helps, I don't know whether you've got all the documents, but in our our submissions to the county we suggested that if E two has to survive erm and to add the words, sorry, exactly as you started the sentence but finishing that the exceptions were areas of the sites allocated for development in local plans, it would seem to me to make it absolutely clear what the freedom of local interpretation was in the statutory plan process whilst giving the county the the that it wanted on all the other areas of the county. +So erm in response immediate response to your question would be, yes and erm to finish the sentence by referring to areas allocated for development in local plans being okay. +Mr Broughton you wanted to come in earlier yep. +Frank Broughton Ministry of Agriculture. +I think it was Mr Heselton raised the er issue earlier of the wording in the explanatory memorandum and er would certainly regard that as being very important in the interpretation of this policy. +Er being an agriculturalist rather than a planner I tend to get a bit confused by higher planning semantics of the difference between strict control and presumption against not normally. +Er so what I did was something a bit simpler than that I just went through the memorandum and and ticked off what I regarded as restrictive statements as against positive ones. +Er and I think I came up with six negatives and and one very feeble positive. +And er if I just run through them in in the amended version as I understand it. +Paragraph one talks about generally preventing inappropriate development. +Paragraph two er development generally should be the exception rather than the rule er building in the open countryside should be strictly controlled. +Paragraph three, discourage most forms of development. +Paragraph four, a limited number of exceptions and paragraph seven, promotion of a restrictive approach to development. +Now to counteract that the only positive one I could find was, while accepting that some development in the open countryside may prove to be necessary. +Now it seemed to me that wasn't a very erm reasonable balance and er comparing that with the with the Secretary of State's recent pronouncements where he talks about local planning authorities needing to breathe fresh life into the countryside through their development plans and I want local planning authorities in rural areas to give the need to diversify the rural economy as much priority priority in their thinking as protecting the countryside and the two go hand in hand, and comparing those two er points I I would I would put to North Yorkshire the question, Do they think that the explanatory memorandum is is consistent with that er policy statement from the Secretary of State? +Mr Collier. +David Collier National Farms Union. +I share the reservations of erm Mr Broughton about the the tone of the policy erm and as Professor Lock was concerned about the interpretation of strictly controlled, erm we are too. +Erm I think if someone er told me I need to control my car whilst driving I would have erm one hand on the steering wheel. +If somebody told me to strictly control the car I would put both hands on the steering wheel but not necessarily both feet on the er brake pedal. +Erm I certainly er would agree that the starting point would be erm a policy which talks of development being permitted in certain circumstances erm and that the county council wishes to support development which benefits the rural economy erm subject to satisfying certain criteria. +And I think that to a large extent erm an alternative wording that that we've been working on would erm meet those concerns. +Erm I'll be happy to distribute copies but perhaps I could run through that draft quickly now erm and go through what I would say are the advantages. +The alternative we suggest is, Development in the open countryside outside the national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty, areas that heritage coast and greenbelt, will be strictly controlled. +Proposals intended to benefit the rural economy will normally be supported provided that they would not unacceptably detract from the character and appearance and general amenity of the surrounding area. +And you will have noted that er much of the wording in that er er latter sentence is taken from the the latest draft of the county council's suggested policy. +I would say that the five advantages of our alternative draft is that er it makes it clear that the policy applies to land outside the national parks and so forth but with less repetition than the proposal put forward by the county council. +Erm it's secondly more positive in its tone than that erm presently before us. +Thirdly that there is no requirement to demonstrate a need to locate development in open countryside erm and we've been reminded this morning that erm one of the erm flaws in the policy put forward back in nineteen seventy nine or eighty erm appears to be that it erm required, certainly in the explanatory memorandum, that the development be erm essential erm to er essentially have a countryside location. +Erm the fourth advantage I would say is that it focuses on the balance between the need to promote rural enterprise and the need to protect the countryside. +Erm and finally, erm in an effort to make it er acceptable, wherever possible it makes use of the wording already agreed between the county council and interested parties. +This wording is as set out in your appendix two isn't it? +No sir. +Erm it's it's erm a further alternative erm in that the attempt has been made to to fall in more closely with the county council's wording erm and yet introduce a more positive tone. +Thank you. +We've got we've got a note of it anyway yes. +Er but you'd better let the panel secretary have it. +Certainly. +Mr Clayton. +Er David Clayton English Nature. +Erm I'd just like to say we broadly support the E two policy. +Erm it is outlined in my statement we do have concerns about the wording er of the first part and the second part of the policy, particularly of the emphasis on amenity and landscape. +Now I know in the original draft nature conservation interest was mentioned and er I'd like to hear from North Yorkshire why that factor is taken out of the policy. +Er we have suggested an alternative wording erm which is in my statement I won't go on to now. +I do feel that the E two policy does reflect P P G seven particularly section one ten and two one where it does mention wild life interest or nature conservation interest. +Just picking up on Professor Lock's point earlier on about changes in the nineteen eighties or since the nineteen eighties, erm as in my statement I have suggested that there has been a substantial loss of nature conservation interest and wild life habitats both in this county and throughout the country. +And that really is the reason I think for one of the reasons for P P G seven being brought out. +Erm that's for that reason I think there is a need to address these sort of er approaches in the the new structure plan policy and er I would dispute very much Professor Lock's statement on them being being no changes since the nineteen eighties. +Erm we we have actually got data to prove that actually as well in our phase one surveys er so it's not just as a general statement. +Thank you. +Thank you. +Mr Donson. +Thank you. +Roy Donson House Builders' Federation. +Erm we were asked by Miss Whittaker to erm respond to her suggestion of an alternative wording. +My general position would be that if this policy is to go ahead the more it's worded in the positive rather than the negative the better. +And indeed I would remind the panel that we still have in P P G one that the basis of appli applications for development should be allowed having regard to development plan and all material considerations unless proposed development would cause demonstrable harm to interests of acknowledged importance. +And it seems to me that in order that that ought to be reflected in any revised wording of the of the policy that the development should be permitted unless it would could demonstrable harm. +Mr Earle. +Thank you Chairman. +Patrick Earle Richmondshire. +Erm I'd like to refer to my page three or er section four in my conclusions because I think if I if I heard Professor Lock correctly I think he and I are at one in in a suggestion which is is put to you in in if you like without prejudice to the generality of what I have been saying in support of the council's policy. +I I do suggest that if you feel that some easing is required that er you could specifically refer to exceptions that will be set out er in local plans. +Now Professor Lock referred to allocations and I think that's probably and the front of his mind er having regard to his own comments, but I I would put it more widely as just erm exceptions which could be either individual allocations or indeed erm policies of of a local plan. +Because in Richmondshire for example we erm find it helpful to encourage er barn conversion in circumstances which some of our colleague er councils er do not feel sympathetic. +Er but that's er as I see it the role of the local plan in relation to policy such as E two. +I would also actually suggest that again if you wanted to ease it a bit I'd pick up a point also made just now er in that P P G refers to building and the E two refers to development. +Er development of course being a wider category of activity than building. +And so I think you you may feel that there's a bit of room for manoeuvre by bringing out the reference to re-use of existing buildings. +Erm I I think in fairness to the county council and and er you know referring to the restrictive nature of their E two memorandum is perhaps a little unfair. +I I one's always got to er balance that against for example Policy I eight which refers to small scale industrial development appropriate normally permitted in rural settlements. +Now that may not go quite as far as as as would would favour. +But it certainly is giving that that degree of balance which er which I think we need to recognize. +And finally er as I as I make the point in my in my written statement, there are going to be exceptions, exceptions are part of the the game. +Erm and certainly when it comes to local needs housing that is in that is explicitly to be an exception and and erm I I see no particular problem with that. +And either section fifty four A applies or it doesn't. +I mean it if it applies then the local development plan has to be followed unless material considerations indicate otherwise and among the material considerations explicitly by Government policy is the existence of a local needs housing requirement. +And so I see no particular problem about the E two in relation to local needs housing policy. +But I mean the the panel is going to have to explore this apparent conflict which I don't think's been properly papered over between what is in paragraph five of P P G one and section fifty four A. Er it's a nice dilemma which we're we're faced the planning profession as a whole is faced with erm and and I think that either it's section fifty four A or it's paragraph five of P P, P P G one. +I know that's not the received wisdom of the profession at the moment but that's the way I see it at the moment. +Mr Williamson. +Thank you Chairman. +Ken Williamson North Yorkshire. +Really just to come back I think there were one or two sort of questions which were posed by various people which er probably we need to to respond to. +Erm if I could go back to to what Mr Broughton was saying. +Erm I would just like to stress that er again that the structure plan needs to be read as a whole and that there are in fact erm several of the policies in the plan which are certainly encouraging of development, certain forms of development in the countryside. +Erm I think that would apply to er some of the existing tourist policies erm certainly and some of the recreation policies. +However, I think it it to re-stress again it remains the county council's view in the context of the advice in P P G seven that most most development erm which is going to serve to promote diversification in rural areas should in fact be directed to and located within and adjacent to existing settlements rural settlements which is where, as I said before most people actually do live and it maintains a close relationship between the jobs provided and the residence of people, and that that level of allocation appropriate level of allocation is in fact something for the local er planning authorities to decide through their development plans and to make adequate provision for it. +As far as Mr Collier's point er alternative policies concerned, I think listening to it and only half having perhaps digested the full implication, I think really as a matter of principle we're not un unsympathetic to a lot of what what a lot of people are suggesting there. +However, I think we do still have some certainly some reservations about erm the policy and how it perhaps fudges some of the loca locational provisions of existing policies. +Er and I would highlight again erm Policy I eight which which Mr Earle referred to and also perhaps er Policy I three. +On Mr Clayton's point er I think my answer quite simply is that the the the interest of nature conservation are in the county council's view adequately covered by what Policy E six says. +Just one point on perhaps on what Mr Donson was saying about the need for polity statement. +I it it still seems to me every time I read the policy that it's a lot more flexible than most people are giving it credit for frankly . +It doesn't er really sort of er er in a sense prevent er or mitigate against a lot of a lot of developments in the countryside. +Is that it? +Provided they need to be there. +Professor Lock. +There there are three of us er, that is Mr Allenby Mr Heselton and me looking for an answer to a question which was about +Yes. +how, so you haven't missed it, E two and how it would be imposed or not imposed on er as a constraint on local plan making. +Would it inhibit local authorities in their local plans +Yes thank well yes er thank you very much as you say several pages back . +Well the short answer is it to my mind it doesn't impose any restraint at all. +I mean it's it's their responsibility to er prepare the local plan in the context of what the structure plan strategy as a whole is saying and I think it's it's necessary not to just look at this particular policy in total isolation and assume that that is going to give er what you fear to district councils the ability to to nothing. +They they are obliged to take the structure plans strategy and proposals on board and to interpret them in the in the local plan in the round. +But we heard yesterday Mr Williamson about a dispute and I can't remember which district council it was with, it may have been Harrogate, between the county and the district councils on one allocation in the local plan. +Does this policy not in effect strengthen the county's arms in, arm in such disputes? +Could I ask Mr Potter, Mr Potter's familiar particularly with this I think it was Richmondshire wasn't it? +I can't remember. +Yes. +Yes it was. +David Potter North Yorkshire County Council. +Er yes I raised an example without referring to a specific site and the site is in Richmondshire where the county council has objected to a proposal in erm what is a a local plan in its very formative stages and the proposal conflicts with Policy I five in so far as I five directs development to the main towns and urban areas. +And I believe quite properly directs development to those locations. +Erm the proposal I'm referring to is in the view of the county council in the open countryside. +In so far as this policy is concerned I think is all it does is give greater clarity to what is the strategy of the plan and what is perhaps implicit within those other policies. +I don't think it adds any greater restrictions to the existing policies. +I think when you look at the the policies collectively and the policies individually the strategy of protecting the open countryside is implicit within those policies. +I think that all that this policy does is make that more explicit, it gives it greater clarity. +Doesn't it give you two policies rather than one to batter Mr Earle with, or his colleague? +In so far as yes two policies would be referred to, yes. +But the one I think just adds to the other, it just makes it clearer. +Thank you. +Mr Heselton. +Thank you Chairman. +Terry Heselton Selby District. +I I suppose in the in the light of what's been said I I am slightly uneasy erm particularly going back to the erm I five discussion that that we had yesterday and you you'll be aware that part of our objection to the erm the policy put forward by the county council re related to the specific wording of the of the policy and the the flexibility available to local authorities in in terms of allocating land erm that best serves the needs of potential developers and investors. +And I think we did draw attention to the fact that er there may well in some instances be a conflict in terms of what Selby district wants and what current P P G advice suggests. +But then when you refer back to the original restraint imposed by the erm existing policy. +So yeah I'm sli slightly concerned in that respect. +I thought you might be with that answer yes. +Mr Earle. +Thank you Chairman. +Erm the the particular case of Richmondshire having been referred to I I felt I ought to point that er we're quite content with the concept of Policy E two as giving the strategic weight to the question of protecting the open countryside and the balance, the very difficult balance, decisions that we and other authorities are going to have to come to in preparing our local plan. +We're quite content that we're going to have to er put before the local plan system the the countervailing issues and the weight that's given to the countryside through E two is appropriate in the circumstances. +Thank you. +Any comment. +Ah Mr Feist. +Thank you Chairman. +Michael Feist Countryside Commission. +A lot of the dis discussion has clearly been erm trying to resolve some of the ambiguities in P P G seven er and I think perhaps different perception to what sort of countryside in North Yorkshire we are trying to safeguard through through policies. +Er on one side there seems to be a feeling that there should be no development and it would compromise the character of open countryside. +And on the other there seems to be a view that, well, erm wherever necessary perhaps on a farm or elsewhere that development should be should be permitted. +And the consequences of a latter approach could lead to accumulative change in the appearance and nature and character of the countryside so that you get something rather different than most people's perception of a countryside being there for its own sake. +And I think that whereas erm we would not necessarily argue with a case for providing criteria at a strategic plan at a structure plan level erm to put some flesh on what is meant and maybe clarify some of the explanatory memorandum in a more positive way, simply should ensure that the policy does not dilute, sorry that whatever changes emerge, does not dilute the mode intention of the policy. +And that the district should be given some form of a guide that enables them to be er to apply the particular circumstances to their own district. +There may be some districts that have er areas of countryside which are outside the non- designated areas which they regard as particularly important as erm the gentleman from Selby has said, er and the we have suggested that er there might be a criteria in the policy that allows the quality of the countryside affected by development to be a consideration. +In other words, erm that er special landscape areas countryside is not to change quite radically. +If there is a decision at the structure plan level that the countryside should be enabled to change quite radically in North Yorkshire that would be a different matter. +But nothing I've heard today Chairman suggests that is the case. +Thank you. +Mr Williamson is there anything you want to come back on or you feel you've had enough in terms of summing up on matters A and B? +Yes I was proposing we close for lunch. +Reconvene at two and then go straight into matter C which is the next section. +Yes thank you er thank you Chairman. +Erm I think probably yes the debate has been probably as extensive as it needs to be. +Erm I'm not sure whether there's an abiding need to to actually bring it all back together again in in the context of a summary. +I think the the county council's made its position fairly clear, hopefully particularly clear. +I don't think er my only comment would be that having heard all the comments that have been made and listened to them and tried to dissect them and understand them, I don't think they really alter er fundamentally our position. +Thank you. +So we'll reconvene at two. +Were you dying to say something Mr Rudd? +Julian Rudd Ryedale District Council. +About time I put an opinion I think. +Erm just three perspectives from a district level on on matters that have been raised. +First of all erm Ryedale District isn't saying that the policy is warranted because North Yorkshire is in any unusual regardless of the quality of the countryside here, but that this is a reasonable reflection of national policy on development in the open countryside. +Secondly, that I think Ryedale was under the impression that Policy E two wouldn't affect local authorities' choice of allocated sites but that it was a policy to apply outside of developing units and those sites we wish to allocate in local plan and not that was going to restrict our choice, in our case in those sites. +And thirdly, with regard to Mr Donson's concern erm I don't feel that the policy precludes the provision of low cost housing on exception sites, er certainly hope it doesn't. +Erm however, if it could be made clear perhaps with an extra paragraph in the explanatory memorandum that I would welcome that. +Thank you. +Succinctly put. +Can we come back at two and go straight into matter C, major exceptions. + +eighty nine, I mean nine ninety one. +I'm ninety one, +And +and I'm born the last day in April. +And whereabouts were you born? +On Street. +And er, could you tell me a little bit about your family? +What did your father do for a living? +Me father was a showman. +And how did he come to be that? +He went to er College, and he used to wear a mortar board, cos that's the tassel hanging down, and this here thing. +And me mother, she lived at , that's not far from Peterborough, and she er Me father used to go to this here farm, me mother lived, and of course they got in with each other, then they got married and then they wanted to buy a caravan. +He wanted to be a gypsy, what they used to called them, then. +And er on the road. +He used to go to Goose Fair, and all the fairs, whatever they was, but it was only for three days. +Did you do a lot of travelling around the country ? +Oh , miles,mil Never stop anywhere, only three days, so we got no time for anything. +So what about your schooling, then? +Schooling? +Well to tell you the truth, I went to own school, when it was er winter, when it comes the winter, they bate somewhere for the winter, do you see? +And I went there for a little bit, and then we moved on, moved off from there, do you see? +And er when I did go to school, er all the bottom of er Mill there used to be all sand banks, and me and the other girl, we we came from this school, to look at this here man with a bear, a big bear. +He'd got a pole, with a bear dancing round it. +And I know the little tune, what he danced to,tiddly-om-pom-pom, tiddly-om-pom-pom,,tiddly-om-pom-pom . +And another with a German band, he'd got everything on him. +And you know what that tune was? +Dee- da-dee-da, la, la, la, tiddle-diddle-liddle-liddle, da ah ah . +I don't kn +And can you tell me a bit about your mother, did she ever work, at all? +Well she Me mother, she worked, she had to work. +Everybody had to work, and them show people could take a er big machine down and put them up. +Do you see ? +? +Everybody'd got to work, and know and something. +Everybody. +And did you have many other brothers and sisters? +Mm? +Did you have many other brothers and sisters? +Well, they had about twenty. +And y all involved in doing the show-work ? +Ch eh, everybody'd got to do something. +On yes. +What what did you do then? +Pardon? +What did you do? +How did you help out? +Well, I was like the rest, I'd got to help out standing at the stalls, like . +Roll up my lads, roll up my lads. +Come on, +. +my duck, try your luck. +Come on you, try your luck. +Eh, that's a good lad. +Hit him at top of his head. +See? +And all that kind of thing.. +And what what stalls did yo ? +Eh? +What stall did you have? +What had er boats, we had hoopla, and er a coconut shy,, what you call it. +Now what did we use to say to that? +I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts, they're all standing in a row, big ones, small ones, one's as a big as head, oh give a twist,of the wrist,the showman said. +I've got a lovely bunch of coconuts Roll up my lad, roll up. +Penny a ball, penny a ball. +Roll .. +Erm d so what el Did you go to church at all, or anything like that? +Oh, I went to church, oh yes. +And we used to have a little card, when we went to church we'd got put a little star, in the squares, and if we didn't go we got a good hiding. +See? +So we'd got to take the card and show her the Mother, we'd been. +Now erm let's see, now you know at er bottom of Lane here? +On the opposite side, on the l on the left left hand side? +All fields. +Where where am I? +D down there, all fields they were. +And on this side, erm corn, cornfields. +And er that ain't been long been built on, that hadn't, nineteen er twenty nine those houses were built, do you see? +And er let's see, oh and here in Street, there used to be a little. +And at the corner there was a , and at the back of that , this , there was a little pub. +You used to have to go down three steps, and they used to fetch the beer in a jug. +Then it er it er came on Lane, do you see? +Take it off, again . +Now er Now could you tell me a little bit about your school life? +Do you remember any teachers? +Well I don't li er I was in one class each time I went. +I never got out that number one class , you see? +But I could do it, I could do me sums and everything, but er I never always in number one class. +Wherever I went, I went school, I was in number one class, do you see? +But I should have got higher if I'd been stopping. +Do you remember any teachers? +Pardon? +Do you remember any teachers? +Ah, only Miss , and Miss , and I can't remember the others. +I remember going to 's school, and er they put in front of us, I were very young, put in front of us a lot of s colours, cottons. +So when it had come playtime I went home. +I said, They've put this here for me to eat, Mam, and I'm not going to eat cotton. +She said, Well, you're not going there any more. +So, we when packed off and went somewhere else, do you see? +That's how it was, I never went to school proper. +And did you have any other friends? +Did you have any friends from school or any friends from your neighbourhood? +We didn't stop for neighbourhood, we used to be , it was r everybody mixed up. +So how did you make any friends? +Through the through the show people? +Oh yes, mhm. +We er You always made friends with people, could talk to people and if they want to miserable they can be miserable, you'd got to tell them a tale, whether you know it or not. +See? +And that's my trouble,i it comes out like that? +Mm. +Did you remember of the things you did with your friends? +Any things you did when you played? +Any games? +Hopscotch, when we'd got a pavement, we'd more fields than er pavements . +. And we used to have er we used to have some donkeys, and we used to have to get those ticked. +Push them along, you know? +And er horses Oh I could saddle a horse and r I can ride a horse,no not racing horses, you know, but I can just ride them. +We used my sister used to shove me one side, my Dad used to say to her, Go fetch them horses, out the field. +She says, Alright. +So my sisters er When we was coming down the lanes, now them country lanes, weren't all done nice, they were grass, where the carts used to come through. +And I used to like the gates, where because sit on it, get on the gate and get on the horse's back. +You see? +And er I remembering Dad, once he bought a cherry tree, and went up to get all these here cherries off the trees, and when we got them we used to wipe them and put them in a bag, and sell them at the fairs. +Do you see? +Er a coconut, erm brandy snap, and all that kind of things. +And we used to have skittles, and what you'd got to do, for skittles you got to throw to knock them down, do you see? +I used to have to shove them up, they used to get knocked s , if they won, a few little ducks, you see? +And er +So how old were you when y you left school? +Or wh wh when you started working +Oh. +proper? +Let's see, you ain't got it on here. +Ah, I'd be er, when I left school? +I don't know. +What was your first job? +Well me first job was d er down lace market, and I worked in Street, Hill, and at the back there was all lodging houses, do you see? +And at dinnertime we used to look through this window and we could see all the lodging houses, and under the beds You could see them in bed. +And under the bed there was a basket, and we used to see the chap come down and wash these, what was in the mass it was kippers, and conga eel. +It's true. +Then they used to come down the street, I've got some lovely conga eels, stinks a bit, but not a deal. +They're awful, the were what was under the bed. +And then I used to have t er a wicker basket with three wheels on, taking parcels to different firms. +And er we used to go down , and you could er shake hands with each other from each bedroom window, down there. +And what they used to sell a er er at er in the lace market at dinnertime, they used to make a big roly pudding, like that, with jam in it and sauce on it, white sauce, it was more water than sauce, you know? +Them was used college puddings. +And er it you get? +Oh we used to have to get hap'orth of the er this j this er r er jam roll, you see? +And +Can you remember your first wages? +Yes, I can. +Four and six a week. +Yes, four and +How many? +What were y ? +What hours did have to work? +Er eight o'clock at night, eight in the morning. +Now when er when I was coming down er , coming from, I lived on the Green then, to go to work, we used to met er a person and we used to call her Rosie. +And she'd got a big black hat on, and a big black cloak, and all er crosses down here, and she's got a boot on her arm all laced up, and nobody'd know whether she were a man or a woman. +And she used to live er in , in the lace market. +Then there was another one, outside the church, they'd made a hole for a man to sit in there, and he used to sell papers. +Then there was er +. +another one, what do we ca ? +What did we call her now? +Oh, she'd got a relia religious mania, and she used to sing beautiful. +Mm. +All of them. +Now what else was there? +As I'll have to fetch it off, I've got +Did you do a any other jobs at all? +jobs? +I got no end jobs. +You know, when I used to take my parcels, well I used to say to him, How much would you give me if I come and work for you? +Sixpence. +I says, I get four and six. +Alright, we'll give you five shilli I left. +I went to another. +And how many different places do you think you worked at? +Oh I remember when I was when I was on the Green, there were two ladies, there used to be a pub called the er erm What was that pub called, now? +Anyway, it was on the Green, and she says to her, I'd like a drink. +She says er, Alright, let's go and have one. +, is that it? +. And er when they got er they went on a little whisky, well there weren't much about threepence, do you see? +She says, You know what our Joe wants for his dinner, tea? +He wants herring. +She said, Can't afford it, can you? +She says, Can't. +So you sup up, and have another whisky.. +What were your bosses like? +Eh? +What were your bosses like at work? +Oh, they were alright. +Now I remember the boss Mr , oh won't tell you his name. +Er well his Mr and Miss er n forgot her name, but I do remember that when the Titanic went down, these two persons, well they were going away together. +See? +But they got down. +That were nineteen eleven, when that went down. +Do you remember any any of your different bosses? +Wha what they thought about you? +How did they treat you, you're different foremen +You what? +and things? +You what? +How did your different bosses treat you? +Oh, they was alright. +Yeah, they were alright. +I er I were very active, you know, I was. +. They used to have the Years ago, they used to have er big and lace, like this, and I used to make all that bandage, for the lace. +And I was downstairs and they used to be up upstairs was the man what cut all the stuff up, do you see? +And er tt there used to be whistle, you know, like a telephone is? +We used t er we used whistle, we used to blow this whistle and tell him what material we wanted, do you see? +And that were exciting. +He used to shout at me, and I used to shout at him. +. Oh they was alright with me, everybody were alright with me. +And er +? +I'm just trying to remember that j Oh erm down on Road, here, where the vicarage is, it used to be a pub, because the vicarage were over here at once upon a time. +And then it went down there, and then it was er er a registerer , and then the vicar come from this place, here, down to that one. +You see? +And er just round the corner on Street,, there were two two houses, that was a prison. +There. +And the cellars were there, where the men used to be, but they're all down now,y so you can't say anything about all that lot now. +And er +Can er Tell me a little about your friends you had at work, going back to your talking about work. +Can you tell me about any friends you er you made at work? +Oh I were making up friends I was. +I can make friends with anybody. +Do you remember any any funny stories you that can tell us ? +Eh? +Do you remember any funny stories ? +Oh eh, and not half. +I . +I remember my mother saying to me once, she says er, I've got a lovely dinner for you today, my duck. +I never used to have much to eat, you know? +I says, Oh, alright then, I said I can see everyone checking the er basins in the big oven,my duck. +I says, Alright. +And when it come time, you know what it was? +Mashed potatoes and turnips. +Have you got a dinner today,? +I says Aye. +You see? +And sometimes I walked down lace market for me dinner and m And er we used to have to go on er on green, for three penn'orth a breast of mutton, to make stew and hap'orth of mixed potherbs, and do together and it were lovely. +That's how they used to live there, at them times. +Did you have many many friends outside of work? +Yes, our mother used to says to me, she said erm, Now this here's , my duck. +This is when we settled down, from show business. +And she says b and be careful with it, I says, Alright. +So that's all we got threepence. +So be careful with it. +I says,Al alright then, I will, Mam, and out of that threepence er I used to save a penny a week, well a penny was lot then. +And i I got er twelve shilling saved up, well that was a lot of money. +And er she says, Where did you get that money from? +I said I saved it Mam. +She says You're a very good girl, she says Now will yo we shall have a nice Sunday dinner, you see? +And we used to go, she used to go down er down the , down town i and fetch er er a fish what were left, threepenny cod for about tuppence, you see? +And er there might be some sausage, a it, it was alright then. +And er oh, we used to have plenty of er stews, and dumplings in it, or er spotted dick, what we used to call it, with a c sauce on it. +And er I'll have to knock off a minute. +Can we take it on a bit now, could you tell me when you got married? +Nineteen thirteen, when I got married, and me husband was a lace trader. +And he worked at , up . +And he got me a house at , two shilling a week, and eightpence for coal. +And how big was the house? +Oh, one up, one down, you go down the entry, round the back for the water, and the lavatory was round the back, and in this lavatory somebody hung themselves . +And I said, I'm not going to that lavatory no more, he said,Where yo where you going then? +Yes, and then er What did I do ? +Did you carry on working when you got married? +Oh, I had to do. +And when I started children I used to go out scrubbing, and cleaning. +Taking me children with me, too. +One at each end of the carriage, for one and six. +And how much did your husba ? +A day. +How did your husband get for? +He got twelve shilling a week. +Twelve shilling a week, he got. +And after that he was er T B and he had to go in hospital. +So how did you manage to pay for that? +I had to go to work, go get another job. +Anything. +There were no er, there was no assistant, then. +If you got, so what I got. +Up and down the Green, selling selling it. +I'm us I were used to selling things.. +And what type of thing? +How did you? +What type of food did you buy, because it must have been difficult stretching your money out? +Well, to tell you truth, up Deadman's Street, there used to be a big er meat shop, and we used threepenny wrap up, we used to get two chops, piece of liver, three pieces of sausages, for that, threepenny wrap up. +And did you used to make cheap +And we used to get the fish flaps, but nobody else would have them, you know? +Two pairs of flaps. +Er how many children did you have? +Ten. +I've got six living. +I've got four sons and two daughters. +And there's +Ho ? +three on them, on the pension.. +Ho ? +How did you manage to look after them on such a small wage? +Oh, I looked after them. +I used to wash at night, and get them all dry, get up in the night, iron them, and take them to the pawn shop. +Did you have to take a lot to the pawn shop?. +They used to take flat irons, women's corsets, or anything. +And if you'd got a good suit, you'd take that, then fetch it out for the weekend, so they'd looked decent, and when you took it back on Monday and he said I'll have to drop you on that, Ah, so you won't this week. +You see? +This d That's true, my duck. +Yeah. +Now, what about at home,h how did you do your cooking? +What did you cook on? +Fire. +And I lived in a back-to-back houses, and concrete floors, no no carpets on. +that them back-to-back and on Saturday night were the , when our mother, when they used to go out. +Next door, they'd got a lot of kids and they used to play marbles, and they used to bounce on these concrete floors. +And if they'd had a row, you could hear him. +I wouldn't half . +And was used to have to er I'm talking about on the Green, now, we used to have to go er right out the gate, half way up the street, for water and the lavatory, it was hard to pull up. +And you'd got to take a knife, in one hand paper in the other paper in the other for business.. +Well, must have been hard doing your washing, then. +What +Well we did it. +your washing. +We did it. +Oh aye, boil them on the fire, oh aye, we . +I always kept the kids cleaned. +And can you think of any ways you you managed to spin your money out? +Well, when I went to live at , the kids are growing up, do you see? +And er one of the daughters used to work at Lane, Ah, that's it. +Lane. +Now,tha this place at Lane, they used to make typewriting machines, and that. +And she'd got to say whoever er work for least money, got the job. +Now they used to call er black sheep, Players, angels. +But the other place, Barlop, er anybody who worked for less, they did. +While we were bad off she had to take that job, my eldest daughter. +And when she come back, her had were covered in splinters with er bits of stuff of the machine. +But she left there and got another job in. +And er the other daughter, when we lived up , she had to go there for six er , and I used to ge had to get up, and bring her right down the lane, and then I'd got to walk back, up that lane meself, you see? +I'm still here. +Well, thanks very +Eh? +much Mrs , +Eh? +Thanks very much. +. +I ain't bore + +We've got a hearing coming up on the sixteenth of July in +Yeah. +in Norwich or wherever it is. +Erm we've sent all the paperworks down to er an agent there and we've still not heard from the other solicitors as to what this erm +Mm. +thing is but I'm pretty sure I can identify it +Yeah. +from the stuff that's now been introduced to us. +Cos there is there appears to have been a display kitchen at some stage. +So I gathered after Mr and Mrs were . +Yeah. +Erm just track the letter down where he said that. +between February and March nineteen ninety. +Two five eight nine seven two in which exactly er the amount that was +Yeah. +. +Now I can't identify what these numbers mean but I think it relates to +Mm. +erm a display kitchen. +It it says display account . +Yeah. +Erm creative cuisine, kitchen-wise . +But i this was actually addressed to erm the Mansfield address. +Yeah. +So maybe that's why it's not come to light before. +Erm I presume that the s are right in saying that this this relates to the display account at at Newark . +Mhm. +Yeah. +I mean I dunno whether you whether you you may want to +Well well I I as I er as both myself and my wife understood it, everything had been paid and then obviously when we got the letter saying we owed this amount of money it didn't come to light till Mr and Mrs came to see you +and said yeah. +Yeah. +But they discrepancies on their side as well with credits owed and all. +I mean I had nothing at all to do with t' business except I went in partnership with me wife and that. +Right. +So er obviously I didn't know anything about the money owed or we would've endeavoured to pay it off straight away when we went to the bank er originally when it went when it folded. +Right. +Erm there's two points really. +First of all you've got to be satisfied that that actually relates to the unit that was at at Newark. +Mm. +And as I say the curiosity is that it it was actually addressed to Mansfield. +Erm I don't represent Mr and Mrs as you know, although they've been in to give us a witness statement. +Mm. +Erm you're fairly Are you're fairly confident that they're not telling us a porky about this? +Well I honestly don't know. +We've had erm I wouldn't say a fall out but er we're on frosty terms to say the least. +Right. +This is doing me no good at all whereas it seems to be all me and my wife it's but like we went to court, Mr and Mrs who were equally involved in it +Sure. +are not, you know, haven't been petitioned or anything. +Don't worry, I've told the solicitors that are appearing for us on the sixteenth of July that that's the situation, that the have not joined in all of the partners +Mm. +joined in too and that they they really ought to be invited to put the s in the frame as well. +Erm so I think this hearing on the sixteenth of July will be quite useful in trying to be able to i identify that this display unit relates to Newark and not to Mansfield. +Yeah. +Assuming for the moment that is right then obviously that sum is is outstanding +Yeah. +er and to avoid racking up costs which is a thing that worries me +That that's what I come to see ya yeah. +erm I think that some sort of offer ought to be made. +Now we we've got these suggestions that you have problems with late the later deliveries from +Mm. +which created inconvenience at the least and expense in you having to buy units from elsewhere customs. +Er if we're doing the job properly as I said to you before we really need the invoices for various +Mm. +customers and how much it's actually cost you to put the jobs right. +Erm but taking a very broad approach to it it may be that we can suggest to the receivers of that erm taking the inconvenience, the extra cost and so on, roughly say half of that account erm +Mm. +can be wiped out. +Er and and just going through my mind at the moment +Is that like settling out of court cos that's +On yes +I would settle for that. +Oh yes. +As you know I mean I'm only a working man +Yeah. +wi not an extortionate amount of wages and we've just had this two hundred pound for the to be transferred to Mansfield. +Sorry what's that? +Erm well I bought in two hundred pound on account for my cost to you and then +Oh yes I'm sorry, yeah that's right +Had a letter +Yeah +this weekend +for another two hundred pound for if I get it right is it to fetch it over to Mansfield or their +newsagents over in Norwich and +Yeah yeah +obviously you don't want to pay us to travel over there +No +So erm I'm just throwing this out as an idea that we perhaps we offer one half of this amount here +Yeah. +erm each side to pay its own costs +Yeah. +and we get the s to pay half of the half. +Yeah. +Well +if worst comes to worst and they don't accept that +Aha. +speaking on my own for my own personal point of view erm if they if they insist they want this full amount +Yeah. +would it be possible for me to pay my half of that and the s pay the other half because I'm not i it it's really started to worry me and concern me a lot +I'm +now +I'm sure that's right and includes a lot of interest as well +That's right yeah +building up every day really. +I mean +The object +as far as I'm concerned is to try and kill it as quickly +Yeah. +as we can cos of the cost side erm I'm not happy about the way they've drawn up the writ because it doesn't say precisely wh it doesn't say what that invoice says it's only +No. +because we've done some digging around that we've actually got that information +Mm. +it doesn't say it it was at Newark erm and I think you've got reasonable prospects of knocking it back because of the problems you had with towards the end. +So I think you know erm +we've got no proof they were labelled deliveries or +customers complaints or +Er I mean the interest is one thousand one hundred quid so +Yeah. +we're talking about three six aren't you at the end of the day that's what they're trying to apply for. +Erm I'll start on the basis that we offer one two fifty. +Yeah. +What I want to do is clear that with Mr and Mrs as well pay half of that +Yeah. +I think +So does that sound okay to you? +It sounds very good yeah +But you're saying anywhere between those two figures personally you will pay half of the two thousand five hundred and eighty nine +Just to finish it off yeah. +I mean if they insist they want all that I mean I'll if they insist they want the interest as well then I'm in er a bit of a spot +Yeah. +Okay leave it with me. +I'll er telephone them possibly +I'll telephone them tomorrow and see whether we can sort something out. +Thanks a lot them Mr . +Okay I'll be in touch . +I feel a little bit better at least. +Yeah. +Thank you anyway. +Alright. +Cheerio then . +Ta-ta. +Er shall I pop in tomorrow with the two hundred pound for Norwich then? +Er yes if you wouldn't mind. +Okay then. +It may be that we don't have to use all of that. +Obviously you'll get a refund if I can solve +Yeah. +this fairly quickly. +Okay then Mr . +Thanks a lot. +Alright. +Cheerio. +Bye. + +up and call me now A little music as well we have on the show we have a video from Elvis to give away in the second half of the programme and star guest this afternoon is Mary Whitehouse. +Oh ho ho Steeley Dan and erm reeling reeling out the thingummybobs. +Hello that's a nice way to start it isn't it? +Good morning good afternoon whatever you like to call O never mind you know the number. +Now er we're going to start this morning talking about animals. +More specifically why we're so cruel to them. +Britain must be an animal erm a country of animal abusers looking at the statistics. +Why do we hate animals so much? +If you have a view on that O nine O four six four one six four one and I'd like to hear from you all you have to do is pick up the phone and give me a f a call now sorry. +Did Karen say to somebody on that thing did I hear her say, What are you on? +She looked at me and said that when I walked in this morning. +What are you on? +I didn't like to tell her is was Phylisan but there we are. +Anyway erm we've been hearing on this programme recently of course that er people are against hunting against fishing er they say it's cruel. +But they are willing quite willing apparently to give and receive pets as presents and millions of them end up getting abused neglected and destroyed. +Every year we see that doleful little puppy on the television screen and every year thousands of people give pets for Christmas. +The R S P C A have to pick up the pieces and they've launched a campaign to try and stop it and joining me now is Alan. +Is this Alan Oritt, Alan? +Correct yeah. +OK you're the Superintendent for the north east of England that covers this area too. +I'm the Chief Superintendent that covers the the north east of England yes. +OK. +So you're the big boss are you? +One of them. +One of them. +Have you er polished your brass today got it all ready to talk to me I hope you have. +Now sorry Alan I've got to turn you up a bit you don't mind do you? +No not at all. +It won't hurt there we are that's nice OK. +Now Alan, first of all er have we learned anything do you think over the years or do we seem to be getting worse? +Sadly the things seem to be getting worse. +Er we the Society try our very best to get over the message to people just before Christmas. +Please don't give a pet for Christmas. +But unfortunately er it seems to fall on many deaf ears and we the Society as other many charities who deal with animals are left to pick up the pieces. +Why is it it seems to me also, and I may be totally wrong here, but it seems people who are least likely to look after themselves are the ones who want to have animals? +I mean you see them walking around particularly people who go for the big dogs, you see them walking around with a big thick necks, the tattoos, the er the boots and the jeans rolled up. +Well I think that's a little bit to do with a bit of macho image. +Erm and er perhaps it's the owners wanting to look rather big. +Unfortunately they don't think before they get the pet that you've got to look after it. +It takes +But an an +time it takes money. +Another thing is of course it's all pets it isn't just dogs and cats. +That's right yes. +I mean people have er er budgie or er er er another sort of bird and they think it doesn't need any looking after. +That's right. +Er just before Christmas you see people think that buying a Christmas present er that's easy. +Once you've er got over the newness of it the the the thing can be put in away in a drawer can be put back in it's box. +But with an animal it's for life. +Er you've got to look after it. +You've got to devote a lot of time to the care and attention that it requires. +I I heard the other day what I thought was one of the best advertisements not to have an animal for Christmas very emotive, er I think it was for the R S P C A, and I I'm told I don't think you've heard it but it b basically it's it's er the sound of a er well it's a human pretending to be a dog really and saying you know, Well this is nice my my er family have taken me to the vet, I didn't think I was ill but never mind. +Oh here comes a nice man with er an injection. +Ah perhaps they're going to give me some vitamins. +Yes. +And it goes on and on like this until the voice is erm, I can't feel anything any more. +Yes it's it's it was one of the er advertisements or programmes that went out on radio er again this is why I've been trying to get over to people the sad things that have to happen to animals. +Erm we hate putting animals to sleep. +In fact it was the Society's policy now that we won't put animals to sleep unless there is an extreme er cause for that the sick, diseased. +Erm and we're attempting to try to get over to people please please think before you get a pet. +Why is it that in the north of England, particularly in this region of the north of England, we seem to be worse than anywhere else? +I I don't think you are. +Now I've spent seventeen years in Hartlepool and yes that er +They hate monkeys in Hartlepool did you know that? +Found a honkey they monkey +I wasn't going to say anything the Kirkham Hotel. +they hung it. +Er yes and there's one hanging behind their door. +Er the thing is that the people in the northeast yes er there is a lot more work done up there by the Society but you know since I've been down in Horsham I have found that the northeast is not alone. +There are many other areas in the country where animals are seriously abused. +The northeast isn't the only place. +Mm. +Ok thank you very much indeed er Chief Superintendent. +And Pa Pat I don't think I don't hold out any hope at all that people will pay any attention they will go they'll see a little puppy somewhere they'll say, Oh that's lovely we'll buy that for Tommy er, and then Tommy will abuse it totally and er they'll say, Well the dog was a a waste of time it didn't work properly and er didn't know how to er how to look after itself. +May I just say that the majority of people will care for their animals but it is those people who buy, we have s er cases where erm people will turn up on Christmas day and say to their elderly relative, We bought you a puppy. +The elderly relative hadn't didn't want a puppy. +Never ever wanted a puppy because it makes them a captive person +Mm. +they've got to look after something. +And this is where the Society is called in er to look after that puppy. +Or just after Christmas usually between Christmas and New Year. +We're called to waste ground, behind pet shops, a any place to pick up boxes of unwanted puppies, kittens that have obviously been er planned for selling to people er before Christmas. +Good Alan thank you very much indeed. +You're very welcome. +Let er let's hope it'll mm won't be like that er mm this er this year. +Now he says deep intake of breath don't have a puppy for Christmas. +Do as I do have turkey instead. +I'm playing this one because I like it. +It's a little a little fresh Cajun music from New Orleans from the and I can say that er that's why I'm playing it really. +O nine O four six four one six four one any calls about dogs or er any other sort of animal you want to give us a ring call us now. +which er er probably rude I dunno it's just . +Er B B C radio York you are not in the South of France but as it is persistently snowing around the county at the moment I thought you know a little French flavour. +Was it the Beaujolais Nouveau wasn't it this week was it? +Everybody seems to be nodding around here I thought it was Thursday it was wasn't it? +Could anybody bring us a bottle down here you know because that would be nice wouldn't it on a on a cool Saturday afternoon here as we sit overlooking the grand metropolis of York. +It would be nice to have just a little swig of the erm of the new grape. +Has anybody tasted it? +I haven't tasted it anybody taste give me a call. +I cos quite frankly I have never heard such an exciting R S P C A man as that last one so I don't expect to get much response to that. +Er so let's talk about the, can't hear can he he's not up in this area? +No he doesn't know does he? +Er stuff it. +Ah anyway so erm I don't think anybody's bothered about er fish and chips arrived have they? +Everybody's in there. +Thing about this programme it is so it is so crucial to everything that goes on at Radio York while it is happening, they eat in the other room that's how much er interest there is they eat in the other room. +Tour buses around York. +Should they be banned? +Should we get rid of them? +Is York a big enough city to have them? +You know the open topped buses where they go round they hold up the traffic. +I know the tourists are very important to York but for goodness sake it isn't a huge city can't they walk round? +Why can't they walk round? +I think if we got rid of all those open topped tour buses in York, traffic would be a lot easier. +What do you think? +Give me a call you know the number O nine O four six four one six four one. +You can ring now. +You can ring about anything you want actually. +Anything you feel like you can ring I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm really you know. +Shame of the Killer oh no I don't think we'll do that er look through the Sun see if there's anything interesting erm in there I've got nothing in the Ewbank . +Boxer Chris Ewbank worth around eight million is moaning that he's got no money. +What has he done with his money? +What has got he didn't give me any. +Oh he's bought a big house has he? +OK. +Usual sort of sex, drugs, rock and roll as you get in the papers on a Saturday as well. +Or is he the best dress man too? +Chris Ewbank is the best dressed man. +That'll upset Jonathan Ross he always thought he was. +Er O nine O four six four one six four one. +Anybody who can hum by the way the er theme to the television programme Ivanhoe and I would be interested to hear from you as well. +Now as the United Nations doesn't have enough on its plate dealing with the problems on earth and obviously they're er they're there at the forefront of everything that happens . +Action is being demanded to track down possible visitors from outer space and this is serious. +A small group demonstrators have staged a protest outside the U N Headquarters in New York calling for an end to what they say is a cover up over the existence of U F Os. +One of the organizers, Michael Luckman, says President Clinton is scared to acknowledge that superior beings do exist. +The United States er government is afraid as are other governments to admit er to their people that there is a higher form of life. +Obviously if the U F Os touch down that would mean they would be charge and not Bill Clinton at the White House. +Okay well er I I figure that there must be quite a number of er extraterrestrials around around North Yorkshire and I thought it would be quite nice actually if er if there are any extraterrestrials listening at the moment they could ring in and we could have a chat. +So if erm if if you yeah yes E T E T phoned when what do you want? +I'm not even speaking to you because of that flipping letter. +I mean I just noticed it I read, sorry Karen walked into the studio totally uninvited through a red light. +That's a particular no no I mean you know for goodness sake can't we av can't we actually ob observe studio discipline? +What you doing? +Just shutting that up a bit. +That's my knob if I want it open I'll leave it open. +Don't flatter yourself. +There we are you see. +Just smutty mind haven't you really. +Er the individual responsible for this this is your letter from the er director of er the Officers of the Director General's broadcasting Principle Assistant Dalek to the Director General. +Get Bert on the phone I want a word with him now. +Come on you lot you know where he is get him on the phone I want to talk to him. +The individual responsible for this unacceptable behaviour shall remain nameless protect his listening and viewing ratings suffice it to say that his name suggests that he is capable of making a big splash. +Is this the sort of person that's running the B B C? +I don't believe he wrote this. +Erm Likes to spout a lot and is never happier than when he is chewing up all the small fry in the world . +This is . +The D G joins me in wishing you every success in your future career. +You're destined for big things obviously. +I wondered whether you were erm I wonder whether you were for the bullet or not? +No it's you. +Oh it's me I see. +Is traffic ready? +Yes. +Are you sure? +Honest. +Oh good. +We're not going to make a cockup like we did last week are we? +We're going to do it nicely nicely +Yes. +sort of flow into it. +Professionally. +Professionally all right. +Actually I've I I I'm I can't do it now but at the next the next traffic I'm going to liven it up a bit for you. +Okay. +So it's it's going to be nice but er you will enjoy it okay so if you hang on you're not very loud there actually you talk a bit louder cos +Talk a bit louder like that? +Is that better? +Could you talk a bit butcher as well for goodness sake I mean it's a yes +Butcher oh I'm sorry oh dear. +It's an important it's an important +bit this traffic because there's snow falling all over the county there are going to be people erm in all sorts of er er problems . +It's stopped now. +What? +It's stopped now. +It has it ? +Was snowing yes. +I wonder if anybody would like to ring in and talk to you? +Well, +I don't imagine they would for one moment I doubt it no. +Anybody want to talk this fe where are you at the moment by the way I know +Me? +you're not here I mea are are you in London or where ? +No I'm in Leeds. +Are you? +Yeah. +Tell me they keep you in a garage locked away is that right. +That's about the size of the place yeah. +Okay we can't do this I don't like it you know talking to the on the programme we don't like it at all. +memo could you not mention the producer quite so much nobody out there knows who he is. +I'm going to actually tell everybody who everybody is later so there'll be no trouble. +Right, now stand by because I'm going to give you a big build up +Right. +and I've got a and then oh this my paper here hold on. +B B C Radio York oh no hang on sorry I got that wrong. +I I start +You do the jingle first. +Do I put no I do a time check. +All right then. +Okay I go like this don't butt in Okay. +It's twenty seven minutes past twelve, B B C Radio York the station that's always first for travel. +We're looking at the roads er for North Yorkshire this Saturday afternoon. +On the A one in the Bedale area there's still a mobile lane closure in operation on the north bound carriageway. +That's between Bedale and Catterick at the moment and slight delays are possible there. +Also on the A one in the Leeming area the inside lane of the south bound carriageway's closed at Holby Grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result there. +In Selby there's a demonstration taking place this afternoon it starts at half past one and will go via Barlby Road and Scott Road and some traffic delay delays are likely as a result. +Also in York today traffic near to the Knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place there. +In the Ripon area weekend roadworks mean the Road will be closed as it passes under the A one bridge delays are likely as a result. +At Stockton on Forest Stockton main bridge over the A sixty four is closed for resurfacing work through to six o'clock on Monday morning. +And finally in the Thirsk area there are no further reports of snow on the high ground there but some moorland routes may still be a little slippery. +Danny Savage A A Roadwatch. +Oh very nice Danny very nice. +This is were I pull this up and go . +I'm not supposed to talk over the singing bit am I? +No. +Yeah. +I'm sor Danny I am sorry. +Okay next time, an hour's time . +All right? +Bye Yeah it'll be good. +Okay. +Bye bye. +Bye bye. +Danny Savage with the er the traffic. +Now the the trains the twelve twenty eight Aberdeen isn't going to leave until twelve fifty four er let's have a look anything else er Liverpool twelve thirty eight Middlesborough Edge Hill er no leaves on the line but you know you don't you never know the er er er I don't understand that the thirteen eighteen what's that? +What does Sar Scarborough I suppose that is? +Gla go ge gar ge ga has the computer gone mad? +Yeah I'm sorry but the computer's gone mad. +Stay at home in front of the fire and listen to Radio York. +Ha ha. +Oh that was slick. +Okay now er Garth Brookes my favourite country singer at the moment and er your chance to win this Elvis video okay you have to ring in we're giving this away first you have to ring in and tell me and tell me the next word no I can't do that I can't no I can't do it's too easy okay. +All right tell me er complete the sentence of this of this particular hit song that Elvis er had and it's difficult all right. +There were three words in the don't ring yet there were three words in the title I'll give you two you have got to give me the last one. +It is difficult it is difficult I know all right? +O nine O four six four one six four one this is it. +Ready? +The Hawaiian wedding Okay no y you can't have got . +There are three wo don't answer them yet. +Don't let the them ring for a bit. +The Hawaiian wedding now there's a word there missing I wonder if I wonder if you can erm if you can guess that if you are the most entertaining winner you will get this Elvis video. +Aha. +Garth Brookes We Shall Be Free I love it I love it I love it. +O K O nine six four one six four one very few calls out there at the moment I mean er. +Noel is there hello Noel how are you? +Hello I'm fine thank you. +What are you on here for? +Because er because I was invited on to speak about current educational issues +Oh that's good I couldn't you see it's very difficult for me you know I have to look up there I can never distinguish one one one call from another. +Right. +Do you have a tit do you want me to your a title do you have er? +I'm Press Officer for North Yorkshire National Union of Teachers. +Yeah. +Yo you're very lucky actually Noel that this is not erm a quiz show. +Shall I tell you for why? +Why? +I'll tell you why cos the B B C there's a directive just gone out I've just been informed the B B C for quiz show hosts on the B B C to treat their guests with a little more civility. +Can you believe it? +How much more flipping civil can you get. +Have you heard these quiz sho I mean they're all on radio four aren't they? +All the quiz show yeah basically ? +Well rad radio one as well. +Mm Where do you live anyway? +In Leeds. +Oh good. +Mm it's freezing outside isn't. +It certainly is yes. +What are we talk oh education we're talking about education right yep. +Okay let me do the prog right er Noel that's a funny name Noel by the way isn't it? +It's erm appropriate for the time of the year nearly . +Mm It's like pulse but not. +Oh oh er yes. +Is that how you pronounce it? +Erm it it is pronounce to +Not the Noel y yeah okay. +Anyway right so erm head teachers in the area have been complaining their schools are not tidy not cleaned sufficiently. +Yes. +Why? +I mean why why are our children going to school in in pig sties? +Well I think it's er down to the competitive tendering process where the County Council has had to put out the cleaning contracts for schools to tender. +There were problems a few years ago when it first started with th the initial contract which was was won by the the County's own direct service organization and now it seems we're having a repeat of of those problems. +Er with the new contracts that started in September erm basically it seems that some teachers are having to do bits of cleaning themselves to keep their their classroom up to up to scratch up to the standards they ought they ought to be. +Erm we're hearing reports that parts of schools having to to be closed or th threatened to be closed because they're not sufficiently hygienic for pupils or teachers to work in. +Oh how disgusting. +And er +That is isn't that disgusting? +It certainly is yes . +That is disgusting yes. +So all these a lot of these firms are not up to the job why do why don't you sack them people are not up to the job why don't they get sacked? +Well there are monitoring systems which are meant to be in place a and which may be er are not are not effective enough erm. +I mean I've heard representatives for County Council th this week saying that er as far as they were concerned th the standards weren't sufficiently low yet for them t to take action. +But basically th every time the contract comes up for renewal, what will happen for a company to attempt to win the contract it's got to cut the hours of its employees and its also got to try and c cut the costs erm by cutting pay and that's the way that's the way contracts are won in this situation and as long as that keeps happening then the situation's going to get steadily worse. +What are we going I mean we we've heard also I'm changing the subject now because that was the the sort of political answer I'd expect and er I suppose until I get somebody else come on and say he's talking absolute whatever er I mean I think it is down to the people who live and work with the school. +I think if you all make a mess you should be severely reprimanded quite frankly expect other people to come round and pick up your mess. +Well that's something that a as a teacher we're erm in my school we're constantly saying t to the pupils I mean if they ha they have a they have a certain responsibility t to tidy up after them and t to try and keep their work area tidy that's not the same as er as cleaning at the end of the day as sweeping up all all the dust and and so on. +What about this mum's army of teachers is this going to come to fruition as some point or not? +I don't I don't believe it is erm at the mo well earlier this week a report was published by the National Commission on Education which was er an independent erm Commission that was set up erm and they they've said that basically what we need to be doing is t if we're trying to raise standards is to keep the idea of having an all graduate profess profession followed up by high quality for train training for teachers once they've actually started work. +The problem there is that graduates are so terribly boring and uninteresting people basically aren't they that they find it difficult to impart their er +You would? +I would yes. +You're a graduate. +I am yes. +Yeah I thought so anyway. +Er I +would have thought that graduates find it more difficult to impart knowledge to people than anybody else. +No I'd I'd I don't I don't believe that that's the case erm +Karen come to the studio please. +Karen come to the studio please. +Karen co sorry I just want to do something go on. +Yeah so okay I'm I'm I'm +I don't think that's the case. +I'm I'm winding you up a little bit but no I mean there's a little method in this . +When are the teachers going to stop being political animals and get down to teaching rather than try to score points off the Government? +Oh we're +Cos anybody can score points off them I mean it's simple. +We we well we'd love to be able to get get on with our job and er wi with far less interference than we receive at the moment but er when government insists on er on interfering to the extent it does an and there have been well I've been reading recently so something like five hundred new powers the Education Secretary has given himself in the in over the last last few years. +Well he's not going to be there for ever. +Decisions are made decisions are made erm there that we and we have to live with the consequences of them. +If they affect education then it's our responsibility to speak up about them. +You see I I think er er probably one of the best erm Ministers of er of er Education that er has been for quite some considerable time and I bet you throw your hands up in horror when I say this you will totally disagree and I'm talking here cos his name's just slipped out of my mind . +Who was tha who was that oh for goodness sake tall thin gaunt looking man, always had to have about fifteen spoonfuls of sugar in his coffee whenever I met him? +S Sir Keith Joseph? +Er you knew you see Sir Keith Joseph. +Now I I remember talking to him for hours once on a programme about education and this was when he first said what we want is teachers to be accountable. +And I'm a great believer in everybody should be accountable right? +Yes. +We well I've no objections to that to that at all. +No none of you do now but when he first suggested it everyone was up in arms and he poor old soul I remembered he said, I've had enough change I I believe in this I I've I've tried I'm too old now and out he walked. +Is there a chocolate machine in the building? +And off he went. +He was addicted to chocolate. +I I I think erm a lot of teachers would now look back on those days with er a certain fondness now bearing in mind what's what's happened since and the the the succession of education secretaries we've had since since then I mean had the only one in recent years who I would say has attempted a genuine dialogue with the teachers and tried to do something constructive is John McGregor. +So when, and I would agree with you again, so when are the teachers going to be accountable, when is somebody who is a bad teacher and heck there are quite a few of them, you know it only takes a couple in every school to make it difficult for the rest, going to be got rid of you know you are not up to the mark out. +There there are systems in place in schools already for that and there always have been. +You jest with me now come on we're we're we're being serious Noel if you are a teacher it is almost impossible to sack you. +Almost totally impossible. +That's simply not true. +There there are disciplinary procedures in in all schools erm which are there to be used. +Why are they never used then? +Are all teachers too good to be sacked because it is it is as rare as erm teeth in chickens. +I think it's I think it's very easy to er to ex exaggerate the problem to take one anecdotal evidence of of one about one or two cases and maybe about one or two people and say this is a major problem in every school. +Let me put it this way to you Noel +I don't think it is. +Let me put it to you this way you know as well as I do people who really ought to be doing something else other than teaching. +You know that as well as I do and those people don't seem to be given the encouragement to move on to another profession. +I I +Some are some are promoted to head teachers I know and I knew you were going to say that. +I wasn't going to say that no . +Erm no I I honestly don't think that er that the the problem is as big as as big as you you say it is and I I think the the structures are there to deal with that and if if people had you know if people used them then they would they would work and they from time to time that they are used and you know it it is not impossible to get rid of rid of a teacher in in the way you are suggesting. +Okay Noel thank you for your er your time and being a good sport this afternoon and I hear you have a little one you had better go back and sort things out. +That's right. +Okay. +Okay thanks. +Thanks a lot Noel bye bye. +Noel from the er N U T. +Erm I don't know what this is serious point actually if if you fancy yourself as one of these so called mums and I think it is a little patronizing the er title of a mums' army of teachers, if you think that maybe you could do that and you'd be interested in doing that and you think it's quite a good idea I'd be interested in hearing from you, all right? +O nine O four serious talk O nine O four six four one six four one erm if you'd like to do that give me a call. +Now where is er where is Rita where are you Rit all right my love all right where's Rita I've got I've got yellow I've got red I've got blue I've got green. +What number is Rita on give me a number because I haven't got white? +Twenty four Okay right if I put that down there Rita hi. +Hi. +How are you? +I'm fine thanks . +Hang on let me do that again that's good that isn't it? +Makes a little noise click click click click. +Can I have a chip does anybody hi Rita +Hi. +Lovely Rita meter +Oh don't please. +I hate that isn't it awful to be obvious. +Well that's what everybody sings to me when them and they meet me for the first time or get introduced to me. +Oh they don't. +Where are you calling from we're very loud with callers today I know I'm not the most exciting thing on radio but you know there must be some callers out there somewhere? +Where am I. +I'm at a little place called Ellenthorpe. +Ellenthorpe. +Is the weather as bad as people keep telling me because it was Okay when I drove in this morning. +No it's not it's it's quite mild, there's no frost on the ground it's all gone. +So what's this about snow at Thirsk? +Well they can keep it we don't want it. +Bit strange in Thirsk anyway I thought. +I think there'd probably somebody with expanded polystyrene ceiling that's been pulled out. +Probably. +Yeah it's it's actually it's not too bad it's a bit misty it's a bid hazy erm slight wind but it's not bad. +It's not? +No it's not bad +No Okay. +I've just got to get something do you mind? +No go and get your chips or whatever. +No I've got I've got I wanted t +It's all right my hubby can wait for his lunch I aren't bothered. +Jolly well ought to as well. +Er I wanted to talk to Jim Bowen you see about this quiz show host ought to be a a little nicer than they are and apparently his answer machine is on at home. +Well I must admit James I've threatened to put mine on. +Have you? +Well Karen said that if I won the competition she'd ring back. +Mm and then you thought, Oh God I've done it now . +But I had to speak to you you see and I dialled you while you actually said on the air that anyone that won had to speak to you and said to Karen look if you ring back I'll put the answer phone on . +I know I thought that was good because then everybody puts the phone down you see and they all think they're going to be terribly clever. +Yes I think it depends on what kind of a message you actually have on your recorder to start off with. +Is your's rude. +No it just says that it's basically to the effect of that the answering machine is quite reliable +I I +and if you leave a message it will be dealt with and people do leave a message, whereas before when it just said I'm sorry I'm not available they didn't they just put the phone down. +I usually leave a message saying I'm having sex at the moment ring back in about three seconds. +And do they? +Sometimes sometimes they never ring back at all ever. +I should've just say you're bragging. +Yes you're right, you been speaking to my wife? +Well yeah we'll probably use the same supermarket I don't know. +So listen I wan er er so is there any snow out there at all anywhere? +No no hon +There's not. +Any chips out there ? +Well to be honest Ja I can't see that far normally from where I live I can see the White Horse bank but it's shrouded in mist at the moment erm no I can't see so I couldn't tell you whether there there is snow up there or not. +Okay. +I also I I also erm er what was I going to say I would take the disc but I can't find a way of getting into this machine actually it's broken erm . +It sounds about par for the B B C. +Young Danny, the big boss now weekend said er take a disc take a disc and I said yeah well it's knackered er erm. +What? +Sorry. +I'm doing that talking to you look for Jim Bowen's mobile phone number so I thought we'd give him a ring that'll surprise him wont it? +Yeah. +Okay er +Can the B B C afford these phone calls? +I don't think so no I don't think so at all that's why they don't call anybody back. +Oh well you can call me back. +Erm oh hang on just a minute can you hang on there? +Yeah Well hubby's waiting +I'll I'll get to you in a minute. +for his lunch but it doesn't really matter. +No stuff that who cares? +Er +hungry. +He well so am I. +Actually I was hoping someone's going to bring in some er some some Nouveau Beaujolais Nouveau cos a new one came out on Thursday. +Is there nobody round here listening that can erm that could bring in some Beaujolais Nouv no no little Off Licence that will do this free publicity on the B B C to come in a say, Look I'm an odd bin or something like that ? +I I thought the B B C I thought the B B C couldn't advertise then? +No the B B C can't. +But you can? +Well. +You're the exception to the rule I suppose? +Yes you wait till you get severely beaten and then you say I'm very sorry I didn't mean to do that. +Hang on hang on I've got Rachael from er from Guide Friday Buses. +Oh golly hang on just a minute . +I think I think I think you've probably stirred a hornets nest up with that. +Hang on just a minute. +Er Rachael? +Rachael? +Hello. +Is that you Rachael? +Yes it is. +God I've I've been in love with you ever since I met you all those where are you at the moment? +I'm actually in the office in Tower Street over looking +Are you? +Clifford's Tower. +Why don't you wonder over here? +There isn't actually a bus in oh yes there is a bus in sight. +Why don't you wonder over here and bring a bottle of wine and we'll share it over the next hour of the show. +Oh I can't I've got things to do in the office, a busy company here. +I never did like those open topped buses. +Well unclear +So I'll be back to you. +at the moment I can see about half well a dozen people sat on one of the buses. +Can you? +Yes. +No wonder there's no traffic moving out there today. +There is traffic moving, it's moving quite freely apart from the cars going into the car park just behind Clifford's Tower. +Is that right? +That's right yeah. +There's never any spaces behind Clifford's Tower so I don't know how you're just telling me fibs aren't you? +Well they're all they're all queuing up to go in there so I not sure. +I just don't understand all these buses with the open tops it's freezing out there and all these tourists look they could walk Rachael. +Well are tourists +They could walk, why don't they walk? +It's a seven kilometre tour. +It takes an hour and a lot of people don't want to walk around the city they'd like the option of going around on the bus. +What did the Minister of Health say the other day? +Obesity obesity and lack of exercise. +and that's what you're encouraging Rachael . +Not encouraging lack of exercise we're encouraging an informative tour around the city with a qualified guide. +You still got that beautiful blonde hair? +We're not on the air are we? +No no no we're not on the air. +Heaven forbid I wouldn't talk to you like this if we were on the air would I ? +Anyway so go on. +Right. +What were we talking about? +So you don't mind +Talking about the buses. +Yeah. +So I mean I think it'd great Guide Friday you run around little flag in the air, I've seen them in London and you can do that and and and people get so fit. +Not that you need to be any fitter than you are. +Well they are fit cos they get on and off at any of the stops they go along to the attraction that they want to do. +Yeah I walk from my front door to my car as well and people say that's not enough exercise. +Well the a there's the Barbican Centre for the exercise perhaps they should encourage the tourists there then. +Mm Forgetting all about oh dear I've got a frog when I go on the air I'll clear that. +Er can you hang on a minute? +Yes certainly. +I just got a we commercial breaks call you back in a minute don't go away yet. +Rita? +Rita? +Oi Rita where's Rita gone. +You cut her off well get her back on. +Get her back on or she's not having this I'm sorry about that hang on just a minute block your ears I'm just going to spin round again okay hang on oops er are you their Rachael are you there? +I'm here yes. +Oh you are okay fine good got you. +I can't open me thing here. +the the er music blowing machine. +There's a problem hang on. +are you do you ever go in for karaoke and stuff stuff like that? +No I don't. +Yeah all right never mind about the photo give me your teddy I don't care about that. +Er Rachael +Yeah. +Yeah what are you doing this evening? +I'm going to Seaham this evening. +Seaham who? +Seaham up in er County Durham. +Oh I know yeah I know Seaham yeah. +What were are you doing? +I thought I want it on the C Ds. +Oh right sorry. +I should think so. +Playing with me knobs. +Look hang on I've got one queu are you all right there Rachael? +Hello. +Do you get fed up with people saying, Are you really like that one in Coronation Street? +No I don't actually cos I'm nothing like her . +Erm +You look similar. +Well that's er that's a insult. +It's not. +It is. +Yeah. +I thought when we did we did that programme out to lunch in the summer and you came along and we talked all about buses and er your organization and I I I was very nice to you actually. +You were very pleasant. +And didn't say you know, It's flipping these tour buses in York that cos all the other people trouble because you can't get anywhere they clog the roads up. +Well that's really not our problem I mean that's to do with the deregularization of er bus companies allowing any anybody to start up a bus company. +Oh that's a bit political Rachael isn't it a bit political I wasn't expecting that +featured the last er three years some of the other companies have only been here since last year and the year before so I mean we're a national tour operator +experienced in running open topped tours around cities. +Could you hang on just a minute don't go away just stay there hold on. +Ah Rita. +Yes James. +Good. +Sorry about that +Still here. +What? +I said I'm still here. +You had to go off and make his nosh didn't you? +No I didn't he's in the kitchen being a very very domesticated husby and he's making own nosh. +He's not is he? +Yeah he is oh heck I've got to get the news in haven't I that worries me. +Well don't worry if you ask him nicely he might even make you a bacon sandwich. +Would he? +What's his name? +Alan. +Alan. +Make us a bacon sandwich. +What? +Just a minute he wants to know what you said. +I don't think I dare. +Anyway Hawaiian Wedding. +Song. +Oh well done what a difficult competition yeah. +Thank you James. +Now just could you sing it first. +Could I what? +Sing it. +James you've got a licence to go on the air haven't you? +Doesn't matter. +It does cos if I sing if I sing you +The B B C have got to give everybody a fair crack of the whip. +Now come on James you were saying you were short on callers the few that you've got you don't want to get rid of. +Yes Karen all right I'm building up to that for goodness sake . +Oh James no James you want some listeners I'm sorry love . +What about Hound dog? +Hound yeah well you know that hound dog whines? +Yes. +That's good to what I sing like. +What about Don't Be do you know the words to Don't Be Cruel. +Come here a minute Karen. +Come here you said you do come here she's a bit of a singer is Karen. +I know yes I know she is . +Anything to get er to be a star . +I've heard her at Christmas time. +How come? +Well she I think it was Karen that did something for Children in Need last year and she sang on the air. +Children in Need, people in greed. +No. +Come here. +James you were once a child. +I was never a child I was born bald. +Ooh gawd heaven help us . +Hound dog Don't hound dog. +Hound dog. +Go go on one two three four. +Woof woof. +Come on Karen sing it. +It's undignified, karaoke it's not +You ain't you ain't nothing but a +Hound dog. +What's the next line? +Crying all the time. +Crying all the time +You ain't nothing but a hound dog. +Yes. +Crying all the time. +That's good Okay. +You ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine. +She knew it all the time. +Yes she did she's good . +Yeah. +Okay well the only thing about this is and we're going to send this to you and er you take it out and get Rita's address. +Thanks. +That's Okay. +Bye. +Bye. +Er it's karaoke video as well. +So you do need a karaoke machine. +Well it's all right because my daughter's got one her music cassette thing whatever. +Mm. +Mm so we can do it on that. +Oh. +And have a good laugh and think of you. +I think I might ring Nina I've just found her home phone number in my book . +Have you. +Yeah. +Why do you want to ring her, James . +I don't know I just thought about it be quite funny . +I thought you were ring James er Bowen . +Jim Bowen I am I am I've got a number I'm going to ring him in minute. +You are? +Yeah. +Okay go and make me a bacon sandwich +Yeah. +and I'll see you later. +Okay then. +All right darling it's been lovely. +I bet you can't find to come and pick it up. +No I can't. +No. +Oh See you later. +Bye James. +Bye bye. +Okay let's er let's go back where are you Rachael? +Hello I'm in Tower Street. +I know you're in Tower Street I'm just being facetious really. +Any way . +Hound dog can you do Hound Dog no don't don't be cruel how does that go? +Sorry? +Sing Don't be cruel . +I'm not singing at all. +Why not? +Because I can't sing. +Oh hang on the ex-directory number's ringing. +That's the boss he'll be complaining. +So there's no chance of getting rid of all these coaches and getting people to walk round the er the guided tours and stuff like that? +Er well that would defeat the whole object of offering the open topped tours if people were actually walking. +Well it would defeat you making a few bob . +There is actually there is actually walking tours around the city for those people who wish to opt for +Mm. +for a walking tour. +So there is the option of doing both the walking tour or the bus tour. +Okay hang on just a minute. +Er Danny? +He's the bo he's what they call the editor of the programme. +Right. +Okay just in case you're wondering who I'm talking t Danny anything else you want me to ask her? +He cos he are you sure we've done this erm everything all right? +Okay right sing along with me Rachael. +Are you ready? +I'm not singing. +You're not singing. +You're not singing? +No. +Hooray. +Oh no I didn't. +Oh here we go. +I want you to sing along with this it's very good you'll enjoy this all right. +Everybody at home join in as well here we go. +Robin Hood riding through the glen. +Rachael? +Hello. +Come on. +Sing +I'm not singing honestly. +Show that this guide +I can't sing I'd embarrass myself . +Yeah but nobody can sing +I deter anybody who'd every wanted to get on one of the buses . +No you wouldn't they'll all come on and say where's that girl that sings Robin Hood. +I don't think they would. +Are you not going to do this? +I'm not I'm sorry I'm not singing. +Are you not? +Okay right do a little dance for me go on. +I've got people in the office, I can't dance. +You've got people in the office? +Yeah. +Customers? +Er got two guides, a guide and a driver to tell you the truth. +Okay could you let me talk to the driver? +Yes certainly. +Put the driver on I want to talk to the driver. +Robin Hood Robin I like that it's great. +Haven't got another record queued up . +Hello. +Hi who are you? +Julie. +Are you a driver? +Don't sound so surprised, that's really sexist. +Why? +The way you said that. +Just because I'm a female. +I didn't say that. +I just said are you a driver? +Yeah I am. +Oh I mean you just sound so young to be a driver that's what I was going to say. +Well I am. +You are young? +I am. +You are young. +I am. +Yes you are young. +Yes. +Yeah. +You are also a woman. +I am yes . +Yeah yeah yes yeah. +You're not that blonde one I've noticed driving around and nearly swerved to have a better look at the other day are you? +Well no that just might have been Rachael you were just been talking to. +No she does she says she she wouldn't be allowed to drive she says scatter brain you wouldn't let her drive would you? +. +Mm? +No I can't say anything can I? +Is she your boss? +Sort of yes. +Do you get well paid for this job? +No. +You don't well you don't deserve to get well paid because +Not for all the hassle we get. +for all the time that we have to sit behind you when we're trying to drive around blowing our horns going get out the way . +Well ninety per cent of the time you shouldn't be where we are cos it's no cars. +Absolute rubbish. +Unless you're a taxi. +Don't they know who I am? +What do you mean I shouldn't be there? +Oh I'm really sorry. +What sort of car do you drive round in? +What would you think I drive round in? +I'll I'll make a point in looking out for ya. +I've got I've got a huge a huge turbo Bentley with a great big whale stuck on the front. +Oh right. +And Andy written down the back if you want to scratch it. +Oh well no I won't do that I'll just drive round at five mile an hour in front of ya. +You do that anyway. +Oh no no be fair it's fifteen usually. +Is it? +Er all these people gawping at everything. +I if I was a building the last thing I would want would be people gawping at me. +Well where does all the revenue come from into York? +Int I don well not from you lot does it? +No but it comes from the tourists that come on our bus. +Does it? +Oh ho yes. +Oh there you're being serious with me now. +I've just +Me? +I've just got to find a record here hang on. +I I've got okay. +Er right. +It's probably news time fairly soon. +Probably. +Yeah I when are you dri are you driving this afternoon? +I am. +Is this sort of you know yes no interlude here? +Was that you? +No it wasn't. +That was you. +You want to get yourself some dinner. +I know I'm so they they eat you see they've eaten fish and chips and it goes through the air conditioning and it comes into the studio you all you can smell is fish and chips. +And is makes your stomach rumble. +It does. +That is sad. +Okay. +That is so sad. +All right. +We all feel sorry for you. +I'm going now. +Are you? +I've got to go listen it's been lovely t talk to talk talking to you if you could pop in with a bottle of I wanted to try the new Beaujo If anybody's got it and they come over, just ring the ring the door bell. +I'll go to blue hang on I'll just go to blue hang on a minute there don't go away. +Hello? +Hello blue. +Hello. +Alan. +Yes. +Alan . +That's him yes. +My fan at B B C headquarters. +That's right yes. +Oh I see Karen's fan. +Well yes I well I like to think I'm a fan everybody's fan. +You do? +Yes. +Yes well we all like to live in little dream worlds don't we? +Yes. +Listen I I'm going to come back and talk to you in more lengths +Yes. +after the news. +Forward to it James. +What? +I look forward to it. +Oh you look forward to it yes I'm I'm good I'm glad about that. +Have you got the er have you got the wine there or not? +Yes of course. +Well why don't you bring it over here? +Well we can't I'm afraid we're always too drunk to drive. +You're too dru it's one o'clock in the afternoon you can't be drunk. +Well we are we've got all this wine to ship. +I thought you might like to send somebody over in the van and pick a bottle or two up and you can have a party in the studio after your show. +You do sound a bit per per per erm ber ber paralysed slightly don't you? +Yeah okay we'll come back and talk to you in a moment don't go away. +Okay. +And er we'll send somebody over to well maybe who knows. +Er right Mary Whitehouse to come we'll be talking about sex and the Buddha of Suburbia and er whatever else sort of takes her fancy and we are going to liven up the traffic I think at er round about one twenty five and find out what's happening there. +Now do I do it over the music across the north I do it over the music Okay right here we go . +Across North Yorkshire and around the world this is Radio York from the B B C. +Health workers from North Yorkshire join a day of action in London to protest at the Government's health policies. +Almost eighty people have been killed in a toy factory fire in China and site workers from Middlebrook Mushrooms marched through Selby to mark the first anniversary of their dispute. +B B C news at one o'clock I'm Claire Frisby. +Thousands of health workers are marching through the centre of London in protest at the Government's health reforms. +Later they will hold a rally in Trafalgar Square. +Stuart Flinders has this report. +Coaches and specially chartered trains brought the protesters from Scotland Yorkshire and all parts +Locally moderate on the Wolds and the Pennines but some heavy falls on the North York Moors and the northern Pennine hills. +It's going to be cold today with maximum temperatures only four degrees celsius but six degrees celsius on the coast. +B B C news and weather for North Yorkshire at five past one. +B B C Radio York. +We're here until two and erm now look oh yes Alan can you hang your phone up Alan we'll call you back sorry about that. +O nine O four six four one six four one. +Stuart how's it going? +Fabulously. +All those women you've got out there. +Yes you do. +No I don't. +You're trying very hard with . +they don't belong to me either of them. +Don't they? +No +Just send one of them in here and then I'll see if I can er I don't mind really I'll see if I can which one would like me to chat up for you I suppose really that's basically it. +All right I'll try for you I'll try for you I'll see if I can O nine O four six four one six four one. +Is there enough sex on television? +Er and should we ban the tour buses from the centre of York or anything else you want to talk about give us a call now. +We could do with a call anybody there anyone's near a phone just pick it up and ring me all right just ring now I'll give erm we'll give a million pounds to the first caller fingers crossed. +Okay you're absolutely right er we did play that at the beginning of the programme we had a little trouble with our C D what happened there Stuart it went off the air didn't it? +Oh I see I see so you plugged it in? +Oh that's good if I if I kick the er if I kick the erm plug myself I could have plugged it back in. +Oh good well I must remember that next time it's always good to know how to do these technical things. +I didn't think you wanted to be bored by that again and Alan's back on there so er where are you there you are right. +Am I ah sorry am I Alan ah yes I'm sorry yes +I who do you want to be that's the thing who do you want to be? +For a moment but no +Yeah. +My friend Mike with the big house hasn't phoned in yet has he either he usually phones in the last part of the programme. +Yeah he's probably drinking his Beaujolais now I should think. +You think so? +Yeah. +Yeah he's a very you know it's funny I know it's the worst time to do a phone in actually because people are doing other oh I've got me foot caught in the whatsit but erm I thought I thought we'd get loads of people on saying I'd been very rude saying that this was er er er nation of animal haters and abusers. +Erm are you talking to +Perhaps they didn't understand what I meant. +me James? +What? +Are you talking to me? +I don't mind really it's er er you know six of one +I thought you might be talking to somebody else in the studio. +No no I thou I'll I'll talk to you if you want. +All right I've just been making some notes here. +Yes? +Erm just just recap you don't mind if I take note while your talking do you? +No I'll go and talk to the wall. +Ah ah no +Who are those people +back to dogs that in North Korea you know they don't just last till Christmas unclear +No the keep +A family of four will make them last right through to the new year. +They do I mean they have to because meat's rationed in North Korea you know. +You're absolutely right you're absolutely right and and I think +That's that's nonsense about Hawaii +You melt the bones down into stock. +The at Hawaiian +What? +weddings. +Coy? +Have you ever been to one? +A Hawaiian wedding? +Yes. +No I haven't been a Hawaiian wedding. +Well they pie it's awful. +Oh pie. +Pie. +I thought you said coy +you know. +Yeah. +Like apple pie or rhubarb pie. +Apple pie? +Erm. +You know apple pie. +I'm just looking +Chocolate pie. +This er +Sorry we're being a bit this is too too surreal for the B B C you're going to get on the line. +They don't understand. +Hang on just a minute don't go away I want you back stay there Alan. +All right? +Are you listening to me? +Yes I am I'm all ears . +Stay sit stay. +They call be Clark Gable go on. +. +Jim? +Hello. +Hi how's Pickering? +Have you got any snow? +Not yet. +No? +promised some. +You're promised some? +promised some this year. +Oh gosh not too much I hope . +er Sunday yes tomorrow. +Going to be er quite a a lot on the Moors so they reckon. +Well I'm going to keep off the Moors then. +I don't blame you. +I'm not going anywhere near the Moors. +Australia soon. +Australia? +Yeah. +Who? +Me. +What for? +Well I'm going for the winter. +You're going to you're flying south for the winter? +I am yep. +That's quite nice actually. +I'm going to get away from it all. +I wish I was doing that to be honest with you. +I think everybody should . +That's my attitude you know anybody who who can go go. +Do you know I was in Birmingham yesterday. +Was you? +Yeah I was in Birmingham yesterday there's a call believe it or not there's an actual person ringing in. +That's right. +Sorry I was in Birmingham and I went you know where the er repertory theatre is? +Yep. +Cross the road from Central. +Yeah. +And if you go round the back through the I C erm whatever it is the I C A. +Yep. +All the canals have been done it's wonderful. +Oh so they've told me. +Yeah I haven't been behind there lately. +Do you know that Birmingham have more cana has more canals than Venice? +Yes that's right. +Well I went to Venice er some years ago and I thought it was a dirty hole. +Did you? +Oh I did I I mean I didn't do round where the er sightseers went I went the places where you're not supposed to see. +Aha. +You know? +You disgu I do that hang on just a minute don't go away. +Alan? +Yes hello James. +You're there are you? +Yes yes. +Oh good good. +Meet meet er meet Jim from er Pickering. +Hello Jim are you from Birmingham? +Yes. +You from Brum? +I am yes. +Oh. +I can't do that it feeds back that's a shame isn't it. +You're from where? +South Yardley. +Oh South Yar you know that do you Alan, South Yardley? +I I've passed through there. +You have. +Is it a nice place? +Er well. +Okay say no more Alan say no more. +No wonder you moved to Pickering. +Er yes yes. +Hang on just a minute just a minute just a minute Jim. +Go on. +Watch him wa I'm talking to the lady next door be careful of him he's he's Stuart that's Stuart yeah very careful of him. +Right. +No not you. +Oh. +The the young lady next door. +Oh I get ya. +You know you know put your phone down. +I don't know why but just put it down. +Anyway Jim so you're off to Australia? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Where? +Er Melbourne. +Melbourne. +Yeah. +Have you been there before? +No no. +I've got relations in Melbourne,al also in New South Wales. +How much does it cost to go over there? +Thousands. +Really? +Quantas. +It is Quantas a lot yes. +Yep. +Yep. +Well when you figure if out I mean it's return isn't it? +Yeah what the hell you and me it's nothing is it I mean you know that's it eh? +The thing is you only do this probably once in a life time. +You're right. +And er you know you you save your money and you take your pick that's that's how I look at it. +Well you have a good time. +Thanks. +They said there's some good restaurants in Melbourne. +Yep. +I've not been but they say there are. +Yes. +All right. +Okay Jim. +Okay then. +Bye. +Ta-ta. +Yes that was good I enjoyed that. +Michael. +Hi James. +How's the house? +Erm warmer. +Is it? +Yeah a lot warmer. +Oh good good . +. +Yeah? +It's lovely to be able to walk around in just your underpants again. +Yeah but it's not so nice for people who look through the windows is it ? +Oh well no one overlooks. +Don't they? +No no no nobody. +Not yet anyway. +Oh. +Until they get planning. +I hear you're in the roller today. +Er how did you know? +Well it's just come up on my screen it says, He's in the roller. +Oh well there you go you see I haven't got one I used to have one. +You did? +Yeah I didn't like it. +No. +I it was an old man's car. +I think it is really isn't it? +What do you drive? +I don't, I have a chauffeur. +What does he drive? +Erm anything he can get his hands on. +Oh really. +. +That's Sidney isn't it? +Sidney the chauffeur yes you know Sidney. +How is he then? +Yeah he's ve well funnily he's er sit sitting over there I told him off when we came in he was driving too fast. +Oh well there you go. +Tell me how did you do with the young girl last week? +Did you actually er +No. +No. +No not at all not at all. +It's too early +it's to early in the afternoon for me really. +Right right did you take her out on the evening? +No no no no no no no. +Well where did you go on the evening anyway? +Where did I go? +Yeah. +Where did you go on the evening? +Er we went out for dinner actually with some +Did you? +friends. +You didn't invite us did you? +I was going to do. +Karen and I were waiting here nobody invi we sat in all night and watched T V actually. +I could have done but I was a little bit worried about your table manners. +Well I don't have any table manners. +Well that's what I mean I was a +You know. +little bit worried. +I think tables with manners are ridiculous. +Oh absolutely. +Yeah. +I just bought a new table this week. +You haven't. +Yeah absolutely. +We get you're getting quite a big celebrity on this programme people want to know you know whether they can come round and have a guided tour round the house and stuff +like that. +It won't be long it will be ready in the not too +It will? +distant future. +Yeah. +Er as long everybody keeps to plan. +I don't have you ever had er extensive renovations to your property? +No I've always been perfectly healthy. +You have. +Well someone told me you were thinking about it. +Did they? +Yes. +No. +No? +No. +Are you happy with the bags under your eyes? +Aha . +Just put your head down there will you just put it down there. +Great. +Erm anyway listen you have you got the Beaujolais Nouveau? +No I wouldn't drink such rubbish. +Oh I'm just trying to get someone to +Okay I actually went to a Beaujolais Nouveau evening the other evening and someone offered me a glass I said, Don't be so bloody insulting who do you think I am. +Do you think I was pompous? +It is really. +Well +But then tha I would expect nothing less from you. +Well absolutely. +You know. +Pomposity and you go hand in hand I mean and if not people wouldn't love you as they do. +Absolute did you go out last night? +No. +I I was in Birmingham. +Oh how did it go? +Oh it was good. +Good. +yeah it was good. +Can you +I went out last night. +Can you hang on just a minute got to take a quick break don't go away just a minute. +We'll be meeting Jane Goldman who's published a survivor's guide to being thirteen something. +Just four years out of her teens herself she's packed a whole lot into her life already. +Author journalist mother and wife of Jonathan Ross. +If you take pain killers regularly you like thousands of others have probably been worried after hearing what's happening to Michael Jackson. +Don't be, we have reassuring news from one the county's experts in pain management. +We're off to Scarborough to see the bakery busy preparing edible Pudsey Bears especially for Children in Need only just over a week away now and Jill Pattenden our woman's health expert is in we'll be talking about cervical smear tests and Jill can help you with period problems pregnancy child birth menopause contraception do ring us from eleven. +Ah that's good that's great. +That was very interesting. +That's nice. +Very interes I +And that +Michael Jackson's son you know. +Are you? +Yeah I'm a bit too old for him now but er you understand. +But that was er if you didn't hear the mid morning show last week that's what you missed. +Oh right. +Cos that was last week's mid morning show trail and I don't I don't see any point in playing what's happening next week. +That's right absolutely. +Because you know it may +night anyway. +Sorry? +I was going to tell you about last night. +Oh yeah go on then. +Yeah I went out I go out every Friday with the boys I don't er old habits die hard. +Really? +Yeah absolutely. +Old friends from many years ago they probably wouldn't call me a friend but I am saying that er very er +How long do you think you can talk for? +Oh hours hours. +I wonder if I can go to the er little boy's room at the end of the corridor while you're +Well go off you're okay es +Okay +especially as there's a monetary incentive. +I tell you why don't you invite me on the show or would you feel a bit overawed? +Are you there? +Hello I think he's gone and I assume we're still not on the air. +But for those who are still listening I'm still here. +Ah right oh okay how did you manage? +on and off so probably managed very badly. +What I was going to say +Oh dear me sorry thanks Mike phew . +Why don't you invite me on the show unless you feel you mi you may be overawed in my company? +Well I maybe in a couple of weeks we might but I mean we like to keep it going and then because when it's when you come on the show you'd be such a be such a terrific let down +I want a bit of face to face something more interesting this is er getting a little bit tedious. +Is it? +Ah. +Okay easily solved. +Ah anyway if you want to call us O nine O four six four one six four one O nine O four six four one six four one give us a ring now. +Billy Joel this is what we're going to play and er traffic is coming up to let you know the state of play on the roads it's pretty awful out there today. +You're listening to B B C Radio York. +Soul to soul Billy Joel this is the B B C from North Yorkshire. +And Whale is on till two we've got Mary Whitehouse not not the experience the person. +Erm we've got bare naked ladies and erm traffic and travel traffic and travel do up traffic and travel and all sorts of stuff er so I want a I want a call from anybody whose never done it before. +I want somebody whose sitting there listening to the radio sort of er just relaxed and I I just want you to pick up the phone and ring. +Don't have to talk about an just a good chat you know just I don't want to I don't want to talk about good people or all about that I don't want to talk about that I want to talk I want to talk to that person out there who will feel now that it is them that I am I am appealing to I am appealing I now. +It is them that I am appealing to somebody because of the erm the the th thought transference that I am using is feeling now compelled to pick up the phone O nine O four six four one six four one. +Yeah right . +That's it yes ah I'm connected with you I am on a cerebral plane connected with you our brains our interlinked you reach down you pick up the phone and you ring now. +O nine O four six four one six four one pick it up ring now and we'll talk after this. +There's the call it's coming in I knew it would work in fact we'll talk straight away now just come straight through to me O nine O four six four one six four one and there's another one there so just pick up the phone and hear as we sit and talk and chew the fat and stuff like that hello? +Hello. +Who's that? +Marjorie. +Marjorie. +I'm just ringing up to say you helped me along with my ironing great. +Oh God Marjorie . +the first time really had a good laugh. +Marjorie ironing on a Saturday. +. +What what have you got tell me what you've been ironing Marjorie I want to know what what sort of things? +Tell me come on tell me tell me. +Oh just sheets and pillow cases and +No no no. +and things like that. +And the and the little unmentionables you don't want to tell me about. +They're not so little. +Aren't they? +Oh dear. +Perhaps you could play along and pretend they were you know that would have been good you could pretend that you were sort of erm I I erm er er Christie Brinkley. +Mm very good. +You know could you pretend to be Christie Brinkley? +Listen I just rang up to say, I don't really want to talk to you. +Oh no but you had to because you felt that sort of there there was that bit between you and me wasn't there? +That we just connected on a kind of mental plane. +Well it was the bald head business. +Listen there are a lot of women find the bald head syndrome very attractive. +Oh yes definitely. +I was born with no hair. +I was born wi I never had much hair. +In fact I need a hair cut at the moment. +Okay then. +Are you going now? +Cheerio. +Go and sit down bye bye. +Bye. +Bye right are you ready for traffic and travel ? +act constructively when +Oh hang on that's the wrong one hand on that's it okay. +Er you ready for traffic and tra I cou what I could do here is wonderful being on B B C cos you can go like this and say this is radio two +And yes I can see +I can do this I can go radio four +Something should be done. +I do think so something should always be done. +Or I can say are you ready for traffic and travel? +Mhm. +Are you sure? +You don't sound very sure to me. +Who is it on traffic and travel? +Hello? +Gary whatsit. +Gary? +Hello. +Are you ready just a quick test . +I am I'm ready yes I'm fine. +Could you make sure you do this really quite fine because I'm I'm we're doing an air check on this bit +Okay yes sure. +and it's going for an audition tape for er for radio one okay? +Okay fine yeah. +Could you do that? +Absolutely. +Get right down there and make it er we've got a record playing in a moment make it er make it sort of fairly butch fairly butch okay? +Okay. +Okay and when you do the out er the out thing +Yeah? +How does that go? +Erm it goes Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. +Gary could you do it? +Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. +Just like that. +Yeah okay I'll go and put the thing so I could be with you in a minute. +Okay er right it's one twenty seven B B C Radio York the station that's first for travel. +Oh hang on a minute er don't don't go just yet don't go just yet all right? +I'll just I wasn't first for travel. +Okay on the er A one area that's the er Bedale area, the earlier north bound lane closures have been lifted and the Leeming area the inside lane of the southbound carriageway's closed at Holby Grange for emergency gas repair works and delays are likely as a result. +In York, travel near the +butch very butch +Knavesmire could be slow due to an event taking place and York City are playing Barnet at Bootham Crescent today so traffic will be fairly busy around that area. +In Selby a demonstration is taking place this afternoon, it starts at one thirty and will go via Barlby Road and Scott Road and some traffic delays are likely. +And finally in the Ripon area weekend roadworks mean the Road will be closed as it passes under the A one bridge and delays are likely. +Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. +Do it again I like the bit do your name check at the end go on. +Are you sure? +Yeah go on. +Gary Shaw A A Roadwatch. +Yeah. +Okay What on earth does that mean? +Looking at the railways I wouldn't go anywhere near the station though I might oh hang on I mean what does that all mean? +Isn't this better for tra wouldn't you take more wouldn't you take more notice of the traffic and travel if it was like this every time ? +Okay er the thirteen twenty five erm when it looks like they all went early . +It's the thirteen twenty five to Manchester Victoria left at thirteen O five. +I need somebody to come in here and explain this. +I think it is broken because it says also er Manchester to er I know it's expensive on British Rail but it says one thousand three hundred and five pounds up there. +I'd phone the railway station if I were you I would phone it okay. +That's okay that's traffic and travel's all right everything's snowing out there. +Ah right John hello. +John? +Oh hang on you're not on there. +You're on er red which is what number was red by the way can we remember what number red was? +Okay right John hello John Er he connected well he hasn't connected on my well get him get him back get him back we'll connect hang up John put your phone down What? +Put your phone down and we'll sort it out. +Right. +Okay well that was exciting wasn't I really enjoyed that and what can we do next?shall I? +Okay this is good you'll enjoy this. +That's not me by the way in case you thought I was phoning myself it's not me. +And that's disgusting on radio this time of the day heavy breathing. +Are we all doing this at home? +Emergency which service do you require? +Hello folks this is Dr Rock I hope you're going to join me every Sunday lunch time from twelve till two on B B C Radio York and yet yourself plugged into the cosmic line cos we're going to have lots of fun. +We've got a Hollywood spot a comedy spot lots of raving rock and roll lots of incredible yarns so be there be square ooh ee. +Rock rock with Dr Rock ooh keep taking the tablets. +I love that do you know he's a mean man with a verruca that guy as well. +I wonder how many people know that he's a chiropodist sh sh chiropodist great. +Can we get him on the phone and talk feet? +Cos I have got a verruca the si anyway that's a problem that I have I don't really want to share it with you. +John hello. +Good afternoon James. +Good afternoon. +Did we connect? +I do believe we do. +Shall we try I tell you what we could try now we could try connecting with somebody else. +You and somebody out there. +Ooh yes good idea. +It's quite fun isn't where are you? +In Ripon. +Hard luck. +. +There's far worse places James. +What? +There's far worse places. +Can you think of one off the top of your head very quickly? +Ooh. +No you see you can't. +Consett. +Yeah every time I get me take-away curry from Ripon I park outside the house that's somebody comes and he says you can't park there . +Oh yes. +It's not you is it? +No it isn't no. +Threaten to smack him next time. +Definitely not no not me. +No? +There's nowhere to park in Ripon. +Not a lot. +Is there? +No no there isn't it's dreadful. +I think they should make the whole place a a pedestrian precinct. +Good idea. +Yeah. +Yes. +Not much good for the traders though. +No. +Not really. +There's not many people in there spending any money is there? +It's absolutely dead. +You get all those those yobbos sitting around the sort of er the you know. +Absolutely. +Every time you go through there haven't they got homes to go to? +Well. +Why aren't they chained up somewhere? +That's right. +Oh that's what I think. +I mean listen I'm the first person to talk in in support of body piercing I look I have parts of my body pierced I like it but I don't think standing around the street corners sort of revealing it is a nice thing to do. +Especially this weather James. +Exactly. +Yes. +Exactly actually on a on a point on body piercing for people who haven't had anything pierced and you should everybody should have if you go and have it done during the cold weather it's better. +Oh. +It makes a better cut. +Right. +Did you know that? +No I didn't no. +Mm. +Not really into it James that. +Has anybody connected with John from Ripon yet? +Has any he's in a shop. +Have you are you in a shop? +I am. +What sort of shop? +An auto discount shop. +Oh I know the one yeah. +Yep. +That's where people who've got crap cars go and try and get bits to stick them together. +Crap is an okay word it's all right crap is not ru rude. +I've heard people +on er +Pretty Close. +Yeah. +No er +When you sell those things like that that that bonding tape that you use to put over holes and and they can get into the M O T. +Yes glue you know that stuff . +Yeah yeah. +Yes. +No one of the reasons I was ringing er I have actually er tried the old Beauj' this year. +You've tried what? +The Beauj' Nouveau. +Oh I see I thought you were talking about toxophily for a minute. +I tried it on Thursday actually at my local and this year it's er very pleasant. +Really? +Well somebody else told me that I mean er er the wine connoisseurs say who would drink that stuff you can't drink red wine . +I mean a lot a lot of years it's quite iffy but this year it's not too bad at all. +It's not? +Not bad at all. +Well I I I'm waiting I I imagined that somebody would be rushing down here with a bottle for me. +Well +They might well have done of course they might have refused it's the B B C they say you can't have a bottle +That's right yes. +in the studio you can't drink that. +Very pleasant. +Very pleasant indeed? +Yes. +Yeah yes I was just trying to think of something to to frighten the er the the er the is he what's white? +Pardon? +No what number is white? +Oh twenty four isn't it? +Oh. +Can you hang on a minute? +Er John? +Yes? +I'm sorry just hang on yeah hey. +Rocky baby +Hi there are we on the air? +Yeah we're on the air how you doing ? +Hallelujah Hallelujah. +Now what to you want to know who recorded Rock Around the Clock first where's Jerry Lee Lewis is tonight? +I want to hear some of this heavy breathing man . +Oh hallelujah. +Is that you? +I want to know who you got to do that with? +Emergency which service do you require? +Ooh +Not her +do you like it? +Very nice indeed yes. +Very very good. +Now listen. +Yes. +Can you come in next Saturday and take this wart off my finger? +I certainly can James and I'll bring in my private surgical unit and freeze it off . +Would you do that? +Because I've had it for four years now and I'm you know a woman touched it the other day and she got really paranoid. +Wow. +Er +Well no. +Could you do that then next Saturday? +Yes. +There's no fee just come in and do it and anybody else who wants will have a wart clinic on the air why don't we do that? +Invite people with warts in. +Oh only one problem I'm on Radio Merseyside next Saturday. +Oh no I might be able to actually no I'll be able to come in James because I'm not on until the evening, I can call in on my way to Merseyside. +Of course you can and I'll I'll I'll tell you how you can get home. +What are you doing over there? +I'm doing a programme with Spencer Lee. +Who's that? +Oh he's just +Hey Do you know I mean I know you're into rock and roll but do do you like some of the Tamla Motown stuff and that sort of thing . +Oh course I do. +Well I was doing er er er programme in Birmingham yesterday and I I had Jimmy Ruffin on. +Lovely. +I mean what a character. +You know who lives near Birmingham as well Edward Star. +I know. +Yeah. +Yep. +I mean these characters nobody realizes that that that in America, Motown didn't look after their stars very well. +Indeed not. +Just look at Michael Jackson. +Well what do you know the guy that sings What Becomes of a Broken Heart I mean nobody can find him. +Well I found him I know where he is I've got his personal home phone number. +My God you're a thorough lad you should have your own programme James. +I know I'm trying for it I'm trying for it. +Okay be here next week . +Okay killer. +Warts and all . +Bye. +Bye bye. +That's Doctor Rock oh good I like him I really am the big fan of his. +John? +John in Ripon on red red's nine twenty one isn't it? +Hello? +What number's red I've forgotten? +Red's twenty one okay hello John? +He's gone he's probably had to serve somebody. +What I could do is play a record but er I can't remember so bear with me for a moment. +Oh what's that one Bare Naked Ladies, I'd better not play that just at the moment oh what's this one oh Billy Joel so so I'd better take that out you I'm always tempted to forget what I've actually played and what I'm not going to play. +Er we're we're hoping to connect with erm Mary Whitehouse apparently she's engaged. +Oh oh I thought she was married that's strange isn't it? +Erm so have we got John back? +Hello John? +Oh please oh what's on radio two again nothing? +Ah thank you that's good that's good that's enough that's enough don't want any more of that. +Right ah can we connect again with a couple of people we we coming up there if anybody out there er is a fan of Mary Whitehouse's as I am give me a call and you know you know who I'm talking to ring now. +Oh this is good what What? +Yeah I know I didn't want to do that just at the moment Yep hand on hang on er I'm just I'm looking up again close the phone failure what that one there all right oh I was leaving that one open in case somebody rang through don't if they ring through can't they come straight on if I leave it open? +Can't they do that? +Oh they can in America and the green ones no there's all white there's all white and yellow. +Never mind you can play the Bare Naked Lady thingummybobs and er then hopefully we go oh he's in the shop he's had a few customers we'll get back to John a bit later. +Er right I need somebody out there who hasn't done this before erm let's see we've been to Ripon, been to Thirsk, erm been over to Scarborough with Dr Rock, North Allerton no I don't like North Allerton well I mean I love North Allerton no no I want to go south I want to go Tadcaster way have we anybody down there? +What hang on just a minute sorry can't I can't hear you you'll have to speak up I can't hear a word Karen lives in Tadcaster oh oh another another another place to avoid really isn't it yes yeah. +Anybody in Tadcaster who knows where Karen Smith lives and this is not my idea but it's a goody could you ring and tell us what she's got hanging out on the washing line at the moment. +Is anybody there? +Karen get that answer the call it's one of your neighbours now. +Could anybody ring and tell us what she has got on the washing line. +What's Karen got hanging on the washing line erm are we up are we up for erm the Bare Naked Ladies there I think we are. +What has Karen got on her washing line it's a great game we could use it tell us what's Karen got on the washing line ? +Er it's a new quiz show for radio four, what Karen what yeah whatever whatever okay. +Er where did that call go? +Have we got in on Karen thank you what? +It's a roo it's a news room call is it? +Oh okay these are the Bare Naked Ladies you will love this. +Oh hang on no that's no good that's The Stripper why have a got The Stripper on oh I see this is the one you want okay Bare Naked Ladies, Be My Yoko Ono. +Hang on just a minute right here we go. +Mm there's the Bare Naked Ladies er they come from Canada they are a brilliant group I think they're brilliant I don't care I like them and that's called er Be My Yoko Ono I was going to go from the Bare Naked Ladies it was all planned I was going to go and say Mary Whitehouse how are you today and she was there er un unfortunately we've we called this is serious. +If you live round the corner from Mary Whitehouse could you pop in and tell her that her phone is off the hook she hasn't replaced the receiver and she she's quite an elderly lady and I would would be terribly upset if if she hadn't got her phone back cos she might need it for emergencies or something like that and I am a caring concerned person so could you could you pop round the corner to Mary's house and tell her that she hasn't put her phone on the hook off the hook properly could you do that? +Don't all shout at once but just could somebody go and do it right okay. +Er now did we get John back or we've forgotten John now because he's in a shop serving customers in Ripon and er great take away Indian there very very good take away Indian and they did ask me this would you please play this so hang on. +Frisby. +Henry. +Where are we going then? +Richmond Henry we're heading north on a special mission for Children in Need. +Right ho Richmond it is but where is Richmond? +Well head north and then we'll ask. +This is bizarre. +You yes you over there in the yashmak where is Richmond. +I beg your pardon. +He says up the A one left at Catterick. +Quel surprise. +You yes you over there with the accordion we've got a mission, Children in Need programmed broadcasts celebrities to meet Paul Ayre Richmond. +No sorry can't make you out. +There's blues football actors and bagpipes all for Children in Need in Richmond on Friday twenty sixth November but we've got to get there first Henry. +Try down these steps. +. +Oh that sounds a bit painful. +You yes you on the spit where is Richmond. +Oh do speak up I can't hear you. +I am sorry your reply is not clear enough I'm going to have to shoot you it's for Children in Need +Next week's morning story on B B C Radio York is dunno really I shall have to think about that have to think about that. +Er now we we're trying very hard I haven't I haven't managed at this particular moment to er to contact with Mary Whitehouse we erm we haven't we haven't we will try and er in it'll it'll probably happen you never know. +Now anybody who er who would like to see more sex on television, better give us a ring now I suppose O nine O four six four six four one if you er if you think the er Buddha of Suburbia which is erm has really upset Mary quite considerably. +If you saw it over the weekend I mean there was I think it was group sex er it was it wa was gay sex and it was all going on I mean it was all I thought it was the most exciting thing I have seen for a long time to be quite honest. +O nine O four six four one six four one. +These are the Saw Doctors. +Ah lovely I saw saw them live a couple of times they appeared on T V shows as well. +Those are the Saw Doctors interesting this about the Saw Doctors is one of them won the lottery in Ireland I don't they have a lottery we're go when are we going to get a national lottery that's what I want to know when are we going to get it a national next year we're going to get a national lottery that's right and one of the Saw Doctors won the national lottery and he won three quarters of a million pounds er and they haven't made much money the Saw Doctors but he won three quarters of a million pounds so that haven't worked for quite some time but they are back on the scene as I speak and er they really if if they er come to York they're certainly worth seeing. +They're really brilliant very very good live and that was called er er, That's What She Said Last Night. +Isn't it always the way. +Now just having a little look in the paper here today and er well oh the Mary Whitehouse saga continues by the way we are absolutely determined to get her on before the end of the show we've got ten minutes left. +If anybody has seen her or knows her whereabouts could you please contact B B C Radio York immediately all right? +Er B T now have er are sending a tone down her phone a tone down the phone and we're hoping that might happen otherwise we're going to try and send somebody round. +Have we tried to sending somebody round? +She actually I have to be I've been to her house and she lives in the middle of nowhere I won't tell you where, she lives in the middle of nowhere in fact I drove past it three times before we found it. +Now Britain is heading for a pre-Christmas Sunday shopping bonanza believe it or not now you heard it first here on this programme that I I predict that there will be completely deregulated Sunday trading before much long What? +Through the red light again what are you doing? +You no discipline? +Shall we call Alan Turner? +Alan Turner? +Yeah. +I haven't got his number have you got it? +No I thought you had your book with you this week. +Erm but yeah but that's one of er oh pass me pass me the thing I don't actually when I think about it it's getting nearer the time. +Did you see in the papers that any anybody who lives off near Harewood House is it Harewood? +They were filming there this week. +Yeah. +And we weren't allowed that on. +You weren't? +No because they're going to I I think actually it's quite er it's quite wrong you know really it is quite wrong isn't it? +What is? +To to to crash a plane into Beckindale. +What's the date tomorrow? +The twenty first. +Oh that's right yeah okay. +Er to crash a er right let me just read er right er okay. +What? +It's it's quite wrong to er ring oh oh yeah right okay. +To crash a plane into Beckindale . +To crash a plane into Beckindale around about the anniversary of Lockerbie it isn't funny at all it's not funny and it's not clever. +Well what do people think about it? +Well what what do you mean what do people think they're not out there they've all gone flipping Sunday shopping. +Shall we call our dot dot dot his name isn't Alan Turner. +Well what's his name? +His name is erm Richard er Thorpe which is why am I looking under T in my book ? +You are. +I haven't got it there I haven't got it there haven't got it there. +I mean he might be listening if he's listening perhaps er perhaps Richard will ring in thank you. +Er right okay. +I'm going now. +What's that yellow light on there that shouldn't really be on should it that one over there look. +That's a telephone line. +Oh all right okay okay + +for the benefit of these two, there's only a couple of sentences +Yes. +in trying to answer these questions and psychological analyses and the whole appropriate to the age of the and I quote we must not forget that but is also a law giver and educator Egyptian Pharaoh undeniably Egyptian in origin . +In the Bible cannot provide and abandoned him. +He was rescued by an Egyptian princess . +In the normal legend they represent what is known as a family romance. +This the special, almost sacred being. +development continued Egyptian Pharaohs and as an adult true parents. +. However,and come to the conclusion that by a name Egyptian Children of Israel. +Compared to what really happened that they were liberated. +There and not from below. +To maintain that Moses was an Egyptian they never . +In short Moses Moses revealed to that like the Egyptians each generation of Jews that gave them their character in general which is that today +Well done Andrea, excellent. +A difficult book in some ways, did you find it difficult? +Yeah, I +Yeah. +Yes. +Absolutely. +Well I thought you gave a very clear and er convincing account of it despite that so congratulations, well done, that was excellent. +Erm, well what does everyone else think? +Moses and Monarchism is not one of those books of Freud as I expect you to read for this course, I mean I expect you to read things like Civilization's Discontents and so on because they're, they're kind of central and they're not very large books, they're clearly er focused on our subject but erm it would be I think a little bit unreasonable for me to expect you to read this one, although, er I'd quite like you to I mean some ways erm it's a fascinating book, erm my guess is if it, if you don't hate it, you'd probably quite like it. +There's a number of students who said they started to read it and couldn't put it down. +Bit like a detective story in some ways. +But erm, what er, what are you to make of it? +Erm, I'd like to say +Mm. +Mm. +Well could you, could you expand on that, cos you're not saying that they, it's actually passed from people's D N A? +No, I'm not saying that +No so explain how it works Mike. +Er, well,it seemed as though it +and er ideology of change rather than industrial relations, erm revolution +And so the relevance of that to what Andrea was telling us about is what? +Erm, +Yes. +Yes. +Well that's it, that, that's a very good starting point because one point that Freud er makes in the book and Andrea er alluded to but is, is very important in fact he calls it, there's a little sub-section of the book called the Analogy and this is the erm analogy that Freud is gonna use for his study of Moseism the analogy he gives, er can you remember it Andrea? +Recall exactly what it is? +Well let, let, let, let me tell you, I don't want to put you on the spot, the, the, the analogy is of er the typical pattern of development of a neurosis, which Freud says is a trauma that happens often in infancy. +This is then forgotten or repressed when it seems to have vanished altogether and there's a third period, what Freud calls the return of the repressed when the initial trauma comes back in the form of symptoms and er ideally in the form of an analysis that finally brings it to the surface of consciousness and dissolves it, and this is a typical pattern. +Er, it's certainly what happened to me I must admit in fact it's certainly been the pattern of my life and er I'm not surprised what thought, Freud thought was a kind of typical er typical pattern. +Now what Mike is talking about is the kind of historical parallel to this and Freud mentions a number of examples. +Mike has given us one which is I think an excellent one. +The examples that Freud talks about are for example er, the Trojan War in early Greek history. +We know that the Trojan War, you know erm, what's described in the Iliad and the Odyssey to the kiddies and er all these Greek and Greek heroes, we know that war actually happened, but it happened an awful long time before these poems were written and er Freud's view is that what happens in a culture is there's some initial traumatic event like the French Revolution or Trojan War, there's a period of latency during which it seems to be forgotten about and nothing very much happens anyway, and then at a later stage it comes back again, there's a return of a repressed and er Freud erm Freud quotes one or two other examples, er of the same kind of thing and Mike's example is a very good one albeit er perhaps it's good because it's so recent, so the point you're making Mike is that are you saying that Freud's analogy is, is credible where French history and even industrial relations is concerned that there was a trauma, the Revolution of seventeen eighty nine, there were latency periods and then this kept coming back from the repressed time and time again? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Right. +Apparently they even put the barricade in the same place +Oh did they? +Right. +Is er, is Freud saying, is he just looking at this and saying I, I see a pattern here? +Yes +Or is he saying, you know is he saying this is how I found religions to thrive, you know or +He's certainly saying I find a pattern here because he's using it, as his pattern to understand and I only just said at the beginning what the, makes the Jews Jewish, what gave them their national character and their, their ethnic identity. +He's certainly saying there's a pattern there er what was the second? +Well, is, is he saying that these are the, these are the things that our religion needs in order to, to be a strong religion, I mean it, she said you know something that I found interesting was what Maska Reece has said about erm the ability of the minority to, to sort of overcome repression +Yes +erm, I read a book this summer er by Kurt Vonnegut called Cat's Cradle and in the book erm there's this, there's this er country and the country has outlawed this certain religion +Mm. +erm called Bocodonism and it turns out, find out later in the book that the reason they outlawed this is because of the guy Bocodon who was, who originated the religion had made a deal with the head of the state of the country that he would outlaw it, so that's how the religion thrived, because it was outlawed +Yes, I see yeah +see and he started up that way and, and the religion was the most popular thing in the country, but all the people were outlaws. +I see. +And er that's how the religion thrived +Right +because they were all repressed but they were fighting against this repression and it was coming out, you know. +Yes. +Erm and er I was wondering if Freud did that or if that's what Freud was saying, that, that, that religion by nature must be repressed or that a minority as the nature of minority is, is er it works harder when it's repressed or it can become stronger. +No he's not saying that, he's not going that far because he's not talking about all religions. +We saw earlier didn't we when we talked about, about future who did that? +Sorry, you did that, right, well think back to what you said about future what Freud said the future . +Right now there are plenty of religions that don't show this er pattern of trauma, repression and latency of return of the repressed, they, they just kind of go on from er from time immemorial, erm and there are plenty of examples of that. +I think Freud would say though however that these are more like the th the was talking about religion,now clearly if something is a outlawing it isn't gonna make much difference to it, or if anything it's, it's just gonna make it er, er make it more difficult, but there are certain types of religion and Judaism is one of them where th this very pattern you're talking about did occur and here Freud is er probably standing on, on firm ground, for reasons which I'll explain in my lectures I don't wanna take up too much time, but I have done a bit of research on this myself and as you will see, erm there's, there are good reasons for thinking that Freud was certainly right about some of those and we certainly know that a monotheistic and, and an absolutely rigidly monotheistic religion appeared in Ancient Egypt as erm Andrea said, just before erm the er reign of this heretic er heretic, heretic pharaoh one of whose er near descendants, I forget how he was related now, erm was originally called Tutamkhatan and then was forced to change his name to Tutankhamen and he was dug up by Howard Carter in nineteen twenty two or something er and er the Tutankhamen is called Tutankhamen and not Tutamkhatan is that there was a religious . +The Akhenaten is interesting because he was the first Ayatollah of history as far as we know. +He, he, he started the +of religious intolerance that still lives on today and causes Salman Rushdie to live in fear of his life. +Erm, the, the idea +God Akhenaten was his prophet and in fact claimed to be the son of God his son and er all other religions were persecuted and er, so what in Ancient Egypt was that the traditional polytheism which was rampant was persecuted by there was only one god and as Andrea says, even proscribe the word gods in, in the plural, you know the, you know the er feminist thought police would try and rule out certain words you're not allowed to use like chairman which has become chairperson or something like that +well Akhenaten took it even further and it was an offence punishable by death to even say the word gods and if you visit Ancient Egypt and walk around the ruins, you will occasionally know they were fond of putting these hieroglyphic erm er inscriptions over everything. +And here and there you will see hieroglyphs have been erased, if somebody's got a chisel and there's a, just a raise a whole block of hieroglyphs, er just there and then and almost always that is Akhenaten's workmen did it and the hieroglyphs they were erasing was the plural er gods. +You could use the word god but not the word they had to be suppressed. +So Akhenaten founded this intolerant monotheistic er religion as with kind of Ayatollah and er suppressed the th the, the traditional polytheistic . +We, we now know this is a matter of historical fact there was a counter-revolution. +Akhenaten either died or was murdered, we're not, we don't know, we don't know how er he was a very peculiar man as I'll explain in the lectures er physically, very strange probably as a result of inbreeding and erm the old religion re-established itself there was never a return to monotheistic sun worship, but er all its hypothesis is that, that since we know the exodus occurred round about this time and since we know that Judaism too is a religion of a single-minded monotheist you know I'm the law by God I shall have no other gods before me, it says in the Bible full stop. +Erm Freud's hypothesis is that this religion left Egypt because of the persecution, Moses was one of Akhenaten's followers who went out into the desert, erm here as I'll explain in the lectures er some of my own research opens up a new angle on this that Freud didn't know about and why they went out into the desert, why they picked up these er Hebrew erm er immigrants who were living on the fringes of the Egyptian Empire. +I'll explain that in the lecture. +But anyway the idea is that er the religion was, was suppressed in Ancient Egypt and because it was suppressed there, the people migrators went to the Promised Land, when they found the Promised Land there they stopped and founded a new, a new religious state, which of course is still with us. +I mean now we're still, you know we're still er er if Freud did write about this, we're still living with, with the consequences of this. +In the, in the current Middle East erm so this pattern certainly applies to Judaism, not to all religions, he's not saying that all religions have to undergo persecution in order to as it were flourish, but some religions do and perhaps the characteristic Judaism or at least this kind of monotheism is these kind of religions tend to be intolerant and single-mindedly, tend to say that we know the truth, everybody else is wrong and consequently they tend to persecute others and get persecuted and this leads to these periods of suppression, but there's a tendency for this kind of return of repress just as Mike was saying, his very brilliant analogy he suggested the French Revolution when the students put the barricade up in the same place or so the erm Freud's idea is that the things that happened in that first traumatic period back in Ancient Egypt and for example erm he said this is why the modern erm Jews insist on circumcision because the Ancient Egyptians did and this is, this is correct. +We know that the Ancient Egyptians er did insist on circumcision er they were racially very erm erm er very prejudiced the Ancient Egyptians cos they were living at the peak of cultural time and regarded all other races as inferior to them and one of the main er stigmas in inferiority was erm not being circumcised and Ancient Egyptians regarded people who weren't circumcised as filthy and erm they er they had this tremendous er racial pride in themselves as the circumcised people, and this of course has passed on into Judaism and even to Islamic faith. +Islam er pursues this er strange habit of mutilating the genitals of little boys. +I don't think they can get away with it with little girls but they get away with it with little boys. +Well it is genital mutilation isn't it? +Would, would, would would, but, I mean I'm quite in favour of people having their genitals mutilated as adults, once they're over eighteen, they go to hospital and sign a consent form and have it done as long as they pay for it themselves, but to do it to newborn children strikes me as outrageous. +I this is just the voice of reason. +You can draw your own conclusions about me. +Er, Mike? +Do you, do you think there's a valid parallel here then with say Judaism? +A valid parallel w w would you say using your, substituting your analogy with the French Revolution? +Erm well +I mean how does it, how does it work psychologically? +If, if, if you're right about this could you explain the psychological mechanism that makes these kinds of returns of the repressed happen, I mean why did the Fre why did the French students feel they had to recreate the revolution? +It was symbolic +Why should they want to be heard in a traditional way, you'd think students having a revolution will want everything make a kind of clean clean break wouldn't they? +I mean why do people have to kind of, if, if, if we accept for a minute that there's something in this analogy, this model that Freud is talking about, why do people have this compulsive need to repeat like this, why do they have to repeat history? +Mm, but Mike that it wasn't new, how do you explain that Kirsty? +Well Well, I, I can't tell you, but I'm sure that er +Mm, Right. +Rather than it actually +Yes. +That, that's a sensible kind of conclusion to draw and perhaps this would meet Kirsty's point as well, because the what you might be tempted to say is look erm, in our cultures we have, we have absorbed from our cultures ways of seeing the world, bits about history and things restructure our thoughts and even when we try and do something new, I'd say let's have a revolution everybody, put up your barricades, you know,actually we had some great fun in the sixties with that erm the, when this happens there's a tendency to nevertheless do it in the traditional way, in other words although obviously the sixty eight revolution was about a completely different issue than the seventeen ninety eight revolution, it was very much later in history. +Nevertheless the form of it was the same, there was a, would you buy that one Kirsty that there was a +Yes. +a kind of cultural tradition in the +Yes, yes I mean unconsciously they will happen +Yes. +erm, but are shown that +Yes, yes. +Yes, so would you accept that Mary-Jane, that, that people may consciously er think for example oh no we're, we're, we're, we're students we're having a revolution and this is new but unconsciously they might be following some deep historical precedent? +Yes. +Aware that +I'm sure they were aware +Well +another revolution I mean that the fight that none, none of these things have really come to a full success, yeah, so nobody looks at them and says well we need no more revolutions because they'll all work. +So everyone thinks that being the is being one that's really gonna change the world, yeah and I think that the pattern he's talking about it's just resurfacing and resurfacing and resurfacing. +I mean to take another example er and this illustrates Mary-Jane's point about it, it can be conscious,is isn't there a tendency wouldn't you say John for Clinton to see himself as Kennedy returned? +Yeah. +Yeah I think that what Clinton did was to play on that to get elected and you know he wanted people to see him as that, but +Yeah +I think that now he's in office and this is why I've started to dislike him a little more since he's been you know inaugurated even. +I think he thinks he's better, I really do +Yeah +I think he thinks +Yeah +okay now I'm here and I am not only gonna be I mean now people +Yeah +I am Kennedy +Much better than Kennedy. +Right, he probably does think that, but isn't it interesting er doesn't this illustrate the point we've been making that he felt he needed to have a play that, strung that historical cord as it were. +Mm. +I, I definitely, I definitely think that's a pattern, you know leading up I, I think this is a continuing thing but that, that in the end these people always think that they're gonna take one step further. +Mm. +And that's what keeps, that's what keeps it going. +Mm. +Yeah. +So perhaps in some ways er we would deduce from this that the the motive of the revolutionaries in sixty eight was in perhaps to some extent to complete what had been started in seventeen eighty nine but not finished and somebody would, Clinton presumably he would say I'm gonna complete the programme that John F Kennedy started, but was unable to finish because the tragic way in which his career was ended. +Erm, so the, that that seems to be getting towards something that Freud is saying, another aspe aspect of this which is the compulsive aspect, the feeling that you gotta keep doing it. +Presumably one reason why people doing something is they didn't do it enough the first time, or they didn't do it properly, or they didn't do it successfully and therefore they've gotta keep doing it. +Is, is that possible? +this father figure +Mm. +I mean it's like the father is condoning what they're doing. +Yes, and, and sometimes of course this is, this, this becomes a conscious rationalization for what people are doing aren't they? +I mean presumably erm when erm er you know when er when people fight religious crusades, very often they see themselves as er justified by a religious precedence of the past by the great prophets of the past or, or, or great leaders who did similar things and er they, they consciously justify what they're doing don't they by saying well you know we're er we're, we're doing, fighting this crusade or, or carrying out this policy er and these are the historical precedences. +And they quote those precedences as a justification for what they're doing and of course that then, then the whole kind of compulsive repetition thing becomes very very conscious because now people are saying you know, we're doing this er because of historical precedence, because of erm and tradition. +So I think that that's, that that's absolutely true. +Of course to go back to something I think Kirsty or somebody said, erm this could also happen un unconsciously couldn't it? +I mean I was interested a a a another very interesting point you made Mike at the beginning, you said that is there, had there been studies that show the standards of French industrial relations did you say that, that this has kind of become a pattern for industrial relations conflict in France. +No, I made +Yeah, right. +say that this has everybody out +Because that implies that this kind of thing then spreads to other areas of life, I mean it, after all the revolution of seventeen ninety eight didn't have anything to do with erm industrial relations as such, I mean it was er it was really about the monarchy, the state and er people starving and all that stuff, but the this introduces the interesting idea that once you've got a kind of pattern in the culture to something, it can then reappear in other areas. +Erm, it, what it struck me as is a parallel with Freud's idea of transference, you know that once something happens in the, in the traumatic period in a, in a childhood, there's then a tendency to transference to occur later in life, we recreate later in relationships to er the model of the early one and er it struck me that what you said about French industrial relations sounded a bit like transference in erm in the psychoanalysis the idea that i i it spills out as it were from the initial which might have been saved er within the family to other relationships i in later life that people have with their superiors at work or something I mean you can see this actually sometimes you know that people have relationships with their superiors which are clearly erm based on erm their relationships with their parents and they see the,th their boss as a parental figure and the employee sees themselves as er as, as, as a kind of erm child and it shows itself sometimes in quite er quite unmistakable ways. +Kirsty? +Yeah +yes, yes, yes. +I told my husband that he had this problem. +Oh really? +Yes, absolutely +Yeah +never is good enough and he expects too much +Yes, it, it's not uncommon. +but can I ask something else erm +Yes +obviously this erm theory of Freud's er is not acceptable Jews. +I would like to find out how a Jewish +Yes, I mean they haven't been. +Once in one of these classes one year I had a Jewish student got up and got very upset during such a class as this and stomped out and then slammed the door er which I was rather sorry about because erm I think he was being a little bit erm too sensitive because the person who was giving the paper said anything anyway erm, but warrant that, but he was just offended of the idea that anybody could suggest that Moses wasn't Jewish, and of course +Well he was a young +Oh they did, yes. +This another one of the black books, along with Woodrow Wilson. +This was one of the er this th this is one of the black books and one of the problems with this has been I think that a lot of psychoanalysts er have been Jewish of course and I think they regard as kind of heresy or some kind of disloyalty to suggest that Moses erm wasn't Jewish. +I, I don't understand how that though. +I mean, you know,ho how does that relate to his pattern that he's talking about? +Well it, it, it, it doesn't relate to a pattern erm to be an analogy. +What it relates to is the specific historical reconstruction it. +You see, you could say that this of Freud's operates on two levels. +On one level there's this analogy, this pattern about history that we've been talking about but er is Freud's attempt to explain Jewish er culture in terms of a, of a general pattern of history, of course there are many other examples and Mike has suggested a brilliant one here. +On another level, on a completely different level the book is about Freud's attempt in my erm in the second edition of I used the analogy of a detective story like Sherlock Holmes or something, or something er i i it, it's an attempt by Freud to reconstruct specific historical events that may or may not have happened, using a kind of detective's method because Freud picks up tiny little clues like Moses' name, the fact that he doesn't appear to be able to speak the language in the Bible, he always speaks through an interpreter, and in the Bible this, this is explained away by saying . +Freud's he just couldn't speak Hebrew, he could only speak in Egyptian and so on and so on. +So it's an attempt on, on, on the second level to minutely reconstructing historical, the lost, the truest but what really happened and in that on that level, it's important for Freud to establish that Moses was not Jewish but Egyptian, because this gives him the link with Egyptian monarchism and the events of the exodus and explains it as well. +It also explains erm his view why the Jews then murdered Moses rebelled against them, he wasn't one of them anyway. +He imposed this religion on them which they didn't want and Freud thinks this explains a lot of things like the story of the golden carving, how Moses comes down +down from the mountain and er and so on. +So that level it, it's really it's the detail level, it's not a part of a fundamental pattern. +Moses, Moses being a different nationality isn't a part of the it's a, it's a historical detail. +But it still seems like I mean in the, in the story, he was raised as a, as an Egyptian +Yeah. +and, and so he +as an Egyptian +Right +you know, so the rebellion against him could just as easily have been because he was raised as an Egyptian or that, that the, you know the between monarchism from the past could also have been. +I'm not arguing +No, no +but I don't see the real relevance and I think one of the reasons that erm I mean I, I hear it and I know that Freud was very critical of religion and I, I, I think for some very good reasons, +Mm +erm but I also think, I also find him to be exceedingly critical of the figures that he looks at just like he was very critical of Woodrow Wilson. +Yes. +Because he, he almost has this personal sort of he sort of a personal vendetta against them in some ways +Mm. +you know and, and not only goes without the psychoanalyse, at least this is the sense I get not only about psychoanalyse, but also to sort of knocked out and, and er maybe that's, maybe that's trying to do and that was the point I also haven't read the book so I don't know. +No. +Well I don't, yes I don't think in the book erm I mean did you get that impression Andrea? +Get some kind of personal animosity against Moses? +No, it's more sort of +Yes. +how it really occurred +Yes, I, yes I think Andrea's put her finger on it. +The impression you get in the book is not that Freud had erm some animosity against Moses the way he had against Woodrow Wilson, he was quite open about it in the Woodrow Wilson book, but that Freud is an intelligent erm believer in science, who nevertheless takes religion very seriously because of its psychological truth. +Freud, Freud's, you know Freud said that everything that religion says is true, but it's psychologically true it's not factually true, it's not you know true at the reality true psychological . +So he took religion terribly seriously, but he believed in science and he looked at the Bible and said well what does this really mean? +What do these myths about Moses who is the key figure in Judaism, what do these myths really tell us? +And so what he's trying to do is to as Andrea says erm uncover the truth, get to the, get to what really happened as it were, under the layers of myth and distortion could have been introduced in the Bible story, and as I said if you read the book erm and it is quite fascinating in many ways, it is a bit like a detective story because what Freud does is he tries to get to the truth by analyzing the, the actual texts and the texts contains discrepancies and anybody who's ever tried to erm edit a book, learns this to their cost actually, but er you find no matter how carefully you change things, there's usually things you miss, little discrepancies that give away how it was the first time and er Freud's view is this, this has happened very much to the Bible, it's been so heavily edited and re-written and later the the various editings show and if you read it very critically, you can begin to see perhaps the underlying pattern er coming through and erm just as you can tell for instance by reading Genesis, that it's a of two accounts because there are two stories, the first story is Chapter One of Genesis, then in Chapter Three or something there's a second story repeats it with variations. +So from that biblical scores have concluded, the book that we know as Genesis was originally two accounts that were pushed together but not very expert actually, because you can still see the join,an and Freud's view about the Moses there are numerous discrepancies and numerous joins and if you take it all apart and say what is it, what does it make up, his conclusion is that erm Moses was, was not Egyptian, sorry Moses was not er erm no not, not a Hebrew but Egyptian. +Erm I would have thought this was welcome news in the modern world actually when you know all these people in the Middle East have got to live together. +I would have thought this was rather an enlightening view to take, but Semites erm, but there we are. +A a as you and various other people likely said erm a lot of people regarded it as a kind of act of erm racial er disloyalty I'm not bothered about what race I am, I'm just bothered about the truth, and the truth is that I think erm Moses was not Jewish well who's to know, who's to know erm as I said it's a fascinating book and if, if you like that kind of detective story approach to history, you, you might, you might enjoy reading it, erm there are,i it raises a lot of other issues, many of which I'll talk about in the, in the lectures, so I, I won't waste time say repeating it all here. +Who er who haven't we heard from. +Emma, you've been sitting there very quietly and judiciously. +Have you got any comments to make about this? +Yeah, that's right +But you see what Freud, what Freud fastens on there and is something that only a psychoanalyst could do, is, is that there's a discrepancy in the story. +Well what's the discrepancy? +discrepancy +The +The prelude to this was set by another psychoanalyst called Otto Rank one of Freud's er early followers who had published a book called the Myth of the Birth of the Hero and in this book what Rank did was to trawl through world folklore and literature, from myths of heroes, and of course there are a lot of those books, and dozens and dozens of them and what he does in the book is he distils all these dozens and dozens of myths and he finds that there's a common pattern emerges and it's, it's pretty stereotypical actually and the common pattern is the hero is born of royal or divine parents, the hero for some reason or other that loses his parents or is cast out by them or is er exposed in some way, erm the hero is often threatened by some outside force and then rescued by er humble people. +The humble people bring up the hero as their own child, eventually the hero realizes through a dream, through a prophecy, a visitation or something that he is not the child of his humble parents, but the find out who his real parents were, and then returns and arduous struggles and eventually gains his rightful place. +There are many many examples attached to Jesus. +Okay, Jesus is the Son of God, poor old Joseph is just a kind of surrogate father erm, you know like a test-tube baby father actually test tube er is er is like you know er a complete surrogate father er for God erm they're threatened by Herod so they have to flee to Egypt and er then they come back and eventually Jesus realizes who he is and after a long struggle with good and evil, temptation at the desert, crucifixion and God knows what, erm off he goes back to you know, sitting up there on the right hand of God saying you know I'm the Son of God which he is, so Oedipus, Oedipus is expelled by his parents, there's a prophecy he will murder his father and marry his mother, so they get rid of him, but he doesn't die, he gets found by a shepherd, brought up by a shepherd. +You all know what happens later. +Er, there are lots and lots and lots of stories. +An Indian, Indian myth made dozens of them . +It's very very . +So concluded that this was a common pattern, however there is one exception. +The only exception is Moses and in Moses as Kirsty says, the story seems the wrong way round. +Is it Moses . +The parents are humble Jewish erm immigrants in Egypt, the adoptive parents of the Egyptian royal families, Emma reminds us the daughter of Pharaoh finds Moses floating in the bulrushes. +Now Freud says if this myth, this can't be the original myth because the original myth has as Andrea pointed out to us very clearly in her paper is the family romance bit that a lot of people or most people have. +Many people can, can remember it that in their youth they saw their when they're their early childhood they saw their parents were very special people the parents. +Later of course as up this early infantile attitude where you idolize your parents becomes replaced by a more rational and so on, but Freud's finding was that this early attitude in childhood doesn't get er abolished, it just gets repressed, it's forced out of conscious because you true and of course things that are not true have to be removed consciousness, but they cannot be erased, so they're forced into the unconscious and they live in the unconscious and they feed myths like the Myth of the Birth of the Hero and all of us in our er erm in our er conscious see the hero as a, as a parental figure that reflects the family romance, the idea that once we were, we were a special child with very special parents. +So the point of conclusion is if the myth is different in the Bible then the likely explanation is that it was tampered with, but that the scribes and the people who wrote the Bible altered the and they changed it round why should they change this myth? +Of course the answer is changing the myth would have made Moses Hebrew and not Egyptian, because if Moses had been the daughter of Pharaoh he would had to been Egyptian and that the Hebrews couldn't tolerate because at a later stage their religion became strongly ethnic and racially divided, you really got to be born Jewish to be Jewish, so they couldn't tolerate their, their founding fathers of not being anything but Jewish, so they altered it, they changed the records and they falsified the myth, but they left this glaring inconsistency in it, so the myth is no longer it's er rewritten and this is one of the little bits of evidence and now of course erm if you don't take psychoanalyst insights into the family romance seriously, that may not cut much ice for you, but if you erm appreciate the force of these unconscious stereotypes in creating this like this, it's cert it's a quite potent piece of evidence because you think well why should the, the Bible change the myth, why can't it just put up with the normal myth. +It's just one, one of those many piec pieces of evidence you know so that the Freud you know like the great detective you know uses all these little insignificant facts and finally puts them all together and draws everybody together you know in the drawing room and says I will now reveal the murderer, you know Moses was not an Egyptian, sorry Moses was not a Jew he was an Egyptian. +Well, +Well, yes I mean he says yes, yes he does say about that, he says that he has no doubt that there was a historical and said there were two Moses. +Apparently as you know I mean biblical criticism is a very and well people have devoted their whole lives to it, but apparently there is a, a school o of, quite a large school I think o of biblical critical that claims that there are actually two Moses and not one. +The two figures have been kind of squelched together just as in, in Exodus there are two, sorry in erm in er Genesis there are two er Garden of Eden stories so they claim there are two Moses figures who have been erm as it were compounded together, but both of them says Freud were powerful religious leaders and they probably did give their followers moral principles, perhaps not exactly as we have but something very like it and so Freud is not sceptical about that. +He believes there was a man Moses, he believes he did exist though actually probably two of them. +He does believe they were powerful leaders and that to some extent the Bible erm shows a true like for example Freud says that there are some in the like Moses' temper, and he loses his temper, he murders an Egyptian Freud. +That could well be a bit of verisimilitude, it may well be the original man Moses was a powerful man with a powerful temper and perhaps this was come down to us er as, as a bit of historical truth, but erm nevertheless the whole figure of Moses and his laws by later generations and this, this th what Freud is trying to do is to erm undo this rewriting the process again truth. +You can still see it going on today and it still happens doesn't it like the Good News Bible if you look at that, I mean this a version of the Bible rewritten, presumably to tell people good news I don't know, I've never, never read it but I presume that that's what the Good News Bible does and we now have countless bibles, where, where, where, where God is, God is female erm my guess is supposing that were the only Bible we had a feminist bible were no other bible and everybody for hundreds of years believed it, my guess is that in the future literary critics and bible critics could study that very carefully and I bet you somewhere there you'll find internal evidence to show that once God had been male and had his gender changed, I'm quite sure of it because edit a whole book like the Bible and completely eliminate all the evidence that God was once male would be a very difficult here, here and there you need little bits of evidence and, and again there's lots of others I'll mention in the lecture like God's name. +In the Bible God has two names, er Yarway Anno Domini and er Freud says that Domini could be a corruption of +and er there is some evidence that the two words are the same and that the original name of God was and that God was the sun and again there is evidence of sun worship er in the Bible. +Again, the editors didn't the Son of Righteousness. +When Christians hear that they usually think it's spelt S O N but it isn't, it's S U N and the Sun of Righteousness er with healing in his wings, so Freud says and I believe it's actually this seen it, it's very common on Egyptian monuments it's a picture of a sun er with, with wings, with rays shining out of it. +That's the Sun of Righteousness with healing in its wings. +Actually the healing is not usually in the wings it's in the hands that come out from the sun and the healing is the of Ancient Egypt which meant life, spirit and er and health. +So the Sun of Righteousness with healing in its wings is probably an Egyptian symbol so Freud . +Again there's a lot of other evidence that Freud doesn't mention and he could have done like the Ark. +Er if you read the accounts of the Ark it looks very like an Egyptian sarcophagus. +There are four angels at the corners with outstretched wings. +This is a typical pattern of an Egyptian sarcophagus. +I personally think the Ark was Moses' sarcophagus and they carried it erm to the Promised Land probably with the embalmed body of Moses in it. +That's what Harrison Ford should have discovered! +And when they opened the Ark they should have discovered Moses in it but they didn't because it was and there we are. +That'll teach you. +Sorry saddened spirits. +the point +Yeah. +That in fact +Right, oh yes it's got a, a lot of discrepancies, but the point is that the discrepancies it has are explicable in terms of what the discrepancies were trying to hide and correct and to that extent it's a bit like psychoanalysing an individual patient. +When you analyze their conscious,, you discover that all the changes and the rewritings level after a tendentious purpose to hide certain things and to keep certain things in the repressed and the same is true o of the Bible, in other words all these rewritings and were not just random, they were often motivated by a desire to hide or change certain things. +In other words they, they show a definite pattern and you can determine what that pattern was. +Well yes +Well for example one of the things, one of the consistent kinds of changes that seems to have occurred is an attempt to deny polytheism, but there are lots of places in the Bible where it hasn't been consistent and where God on occasions speaks in the Bible erm as if other gods could exist, like I, I, I'm the Lord, I'm a jealous god. +Why should he be jealous if there are no gods to be jealous of? +There are lots of bits of evidence that suggest that the Bible has been consistently rewritten to make it more monotheistic than it really was in the beginning. +In the beginning, okay believed in and or whatever you wanna call it, but it also believed in other gods as well, except he was the chief god, he was number one god as it were and he's the one you got to follow. +These other gods exist, but they're the wrong gods. +There was a tendency says Freud to eliminate all the wrong gods and say there is only one god but the whole point . +That of course is exactly what Akhenaten tried to do at the beginning another example the return of the repressed its original religious intolerance. +Well it's an interesting thesis. +As I said I'll be having quite a lot to say about in the lectures, so we'll just regard this class as a kind of prelude to that. +Er Andrea, er it's gone eleven I mustn't detain you any longer. +Congratulations on excellent paper, first class er well done. +Next week are hearing from Simone who isn't here. +Now folks if you see Simone remind her. +Anybody know Simone anthropologists? +Okay +Yes. +Yeah let me tell you actually yeah the following week. +Oh okay. +Two weeks today okay. +Great opportunity to pass on genes effortlessly, though the female has a limited number of eggs which has specific requirements for survival and therefore temporar temporarily stalls her reproductive success. +So from the moment of concep conception because females are biologically out-of-gear now have a much higher potentially accepted success. +Even if relative initial differences in intentionally productive success they have the groundwork for different male and female receptive strategies. +Now first the receptive strategy for males. +For males the characteristic meaning of strategy is the continuous pattern of low or no . +Because of high potential reproductive success and their effort to earn the parental care for seeking additional mates. +internal behaviour in in most species. +Another reason for low in males is the . +In species where fertilization is internal, they are also much less pertinent with genetic relationship of offspring because investing in unrelated offsprings one's . +Furthermore, males minimize vest investment in attempt to their potential for reproduct for a high reproductive success. +This takes a great deal of effort because simply having the potential for a greater reproductive success in females does not necessarily mean that they actual have ha actually have greater reproductive success. +This is because males vary greatly among themselves in success. +Such males have large numbers of offspring while others might have none at all. +Erm so we still that in general erm males have potential for greater reprodu reproductive success than females, but erm this, this doesn't actually, they don't always er actualize their potential because erm some do there's a great difference among males and erm just some of them will have great er large numbers of offspring, whereas other males might not have any at all. +Erm for the females the variance in reproductive success is of the, the differences in the female condition such as the ability to invest in offspring, erm or food producing , but among the males the variation in reproductive success are a function of male competition and female shortage. +Males compete with each other for females and for ever more are subject to females for particular members are not the reproductive strategy for females. +For females mating strategy differs due to and reproductive success of biological specialization and parental care, such as the gestation . +Consequently females are expected to select mates most capable of investing resources in their offspring. +Possible strategies include the domestic strategy where the female recognizes domestic qualities in males in advance and therefore benefits herself by choosing a male with qualities. +An alternative strategy is the where the female is resigned to getting no help from the mate and concentrating rather on selecting a mate with the best genes and in this case . +So as a result of combining both of these strategies the differing male and female strategies +Come in. +Hi, how you doing? +erm you end up with four different er types of er reproductive strategies which are of monogamy, polygyny, polygamy and polyandry and the first one monogamy is when you have one male and female and er this minimizes the differences in reproductive success and the way it does that is because erm it, it minimizes the difference between the sexes because monogamy takes the limitations of the male erm to reproduce only with the one female so the male to female ratio of reproductive success the same in monogamy, and er what happens to that is this little in er more equal towards their parental investment . +Er the second polygyny where you have one male and then females and here reproductive success erm meaning that there's a large again you'll have the males who'll have the large reproductive success than males who have none at all and erm of course often differences between male and female because the male has and the male has opportunities to erm try to control success rate the female biological and er consequently with this kind of system from female choice and male competition and er are about eighty percent and er polygamy is when you have many males and many females and er is also and er I would assume it's kind of like males have opportunities . +But again the result of that system the main difference with that would be you know if they had different erm partners, whereas other one partner. +Erm polyandry's the last type of example, he has one erm many males and one female and with this system the differences between the sexes is the first and er males that do their larger parental investment females and it's a very rare . +Now on the other side of parental investment is desertion. +The other alternatives of parental investment is desertion. +When investing offspring, when investing offspring results in increased males stay together, but if it is possible to reach by deserting a partner, then the individual is likely to be erm you can't decide on based on potential opportunities made parental investment. +because of the those offspring can survive without further parental investment and if parental investment is therefore . +The decision based on a number of current offspring, larger numbers can be greater benefited with and therefore it's more likely that if the parent had a lot of er offspring then he would continue with the investment and erm the conclusion from now is that males have a greater reproductive success, therefore they are more likely to desert because they can erm and erm this and erm the basic argument of this is one parent can get away with investing less share of erm resources they're likely to spend more er then they're to do it, so in other words erm if, if one of the, of the two is being to get away with having the other they can go out to er pursue their own and therefore erm each partner force the other to invest more. +Okay that's basically erm I have to say. +I have a few questions of my own erm in, in doing it and erm was er when you say that, that males had males parental investment erm I was wondering how they, how can a male when the male decides to desert how can they be certain if the female is going to take care of the offspring, because I was wondering if erm if probability like the based by their genes it doesn't matter if one female doesn't take care of the offspring because they produce more offspring +I think that would depend on the species wouldn't it and the, and the local conditions, for example in that erm case I mentioned in yesterday's lecture monogamous birds with long breeding groups where you get desertion. +What seems to happen there is the bird that's deserted has to stay with the existing family because if he or she erm deserts, those chicks will, will, will die, so er it's what is sometimes called the Concorde fallacy that if you put a lot of resources into something, you've gotta see it through, because if you pull out just before the end you can lose everything, whereas i if, if you stay on even if you know it's a failure, erm at least you may get something out of it, so the, in that case wi with monogamous birds the parent that's deserted the one that's left may have to stay, because if they desert then they can have no reproductive success whatsoever whereas at least if they stay they get something. +Erm in fact a similar effect happens, I'll be mentioning this in the lecture but let me just mention it now. +A similar thing can happen with so-called piracy in fish. +Erm one of the problems fish have on this is that they lay their eggs in gravel or something like that and where males have their own nest sometimes another male comes along and er takes it over, hijacks it piracy and interestingly enough what happens in those situations a pirate male will come in, displace the existing male from his nest and fertilize a few eggs and then buzz off. +The resident male who was displaced then comes back and looks after all the eggs, including those of the pirate and the reason he does it presumably in the first place he can't distinguish which eggs he's fertilized and those fertilized by the pirate and secondly, he knows he's fertilized some of the eggs and therefore it pays him to stay and look after all of them. +So erm in other words i it wou would depend on the circumstances on how much has already been invested. +In the case of human beings of course you have to notice that men seem to have an advantage because as I think I mention i in the lectures, it's perfectly possible, you see this happening in our own society which is supposed to be monogamous, perfectly possible for a man to get married, raise a family and then in his forties to desert his wife and raise a second family. +Much more difficult for a woman because by the time a woman's got into her forties, her child rearing erm career is usually rather short and even if she wants to continue, it becomes much more hazardous for her and for her offspring, so er in, in the case of erm modern societies with erm monogamy bu but divorce as we have, you can't help thinking that to some extent the, the odds are, are loaded in the favour of men as it were in terms of their reproductive success. +It's paradoxical because often divorce law reforms thought of as favouring women and in circumspect that allows women to get away from an unreasonable husband and that kind of thing, it's certainly true, but at the same time you have to notice that in terms of reproductive success it may benefit more er men more . +Okay, now so I think what one may have to say it depends on the species and the circumstance. +Does that answer your question? +We can come back to this, I mean have you got any others? +Yeah, erm modern when in choosing a mate and er connection with that because with the assumption that males generally don't give any parental investment what really benefit them to you know biologically can, can support the offspring themselves short period of time why can't they then go you know to have their own I mean +Right, right +Yes, I mean you put your finger on an important problem here that we need to discuss and that is that if you concentrate on human beings in general, and this is true on our own society but I, I think it's true of just about all societies and it's emphatically true of primal hunting adult societies then men do make a lot of parental investment don't they? +I mean you think about primal hunting adults like the bushmen or the Australian Aborigines, the the men do the, do the hunting for erm for meat and women do the, do the gathering for and the point is that er meat is very nutritious and it's an important part of their diet and men go hunting and they come back and they share food with their wives and their relatives or someone and male parental investment is terribly important So women for instance if you ask David McKnight who's a world authority on the Australian Aborigines and has spent many years living with them, say what do women look for in the traditional society, what do women look for in a husband? +His answer is immediate and emphatic a good hunter, he says you know what a woman wants in a, in a husband is a man who can you know bring home the bacon literally, er it's not smoked of course, but it's fresh! +But you see the point, so in our species and of course in most societies this is true men are breadwinners whether in an agricultural society or an industrial society erm you know one often feels that if you're the man in the family you earn all the money your wife spends it on most of the time erm it certainly happens to me er +I spend most of my time working while my wife spends most of the time shopping but erm +she certainly spends the money, but erm but the, the +Well I think you know you've gotta, gotta speak up for us poor husbands sometimes +erm the er +but you see the point I'm making, in our species males do contribute. +Now, this contribution is not direct, it's indirect in the sense that males, a male for example who is provisioning a wife who is pregnant is not directly invent investing in the offspring clearly you can't do that she has to do that, cos the offspring's inside her body, but indirectly he may be feeding his wife, protecting her and providing for her in, in a way that is absolutely critical to her reproductive success too. +So it's important to notice that in many species and certainly in ours, although males need not as you say make any contribution apart from their genes in principle, in fact males are heavy investors in offspring, albeit indirectly, so that must be important mustn't it and that must +But the thing is that it seems that we're a cultural the way the system is set up +Yeah +I mean to begin with then obviously the female livelihood they depend on that primal investment it's, it's a situation the way that that it's divided up +Well presumably the reason why the men do the hunting is that they're they figure they're more aggressive and are not gonna be pregnant or incumbent to children. +Well,i i i i in that sense it's logical that they're the ones that do er the hunting and I guess the way it's set up logical I think +Mm +but I don't see, I'm trying to make it like a genetic connection or something I mean or some kind of like you know I mean to me it's just set up +Yes, yes sorry Katherine? +Erm I think well the which is erm which is directly extrapolated to like what happened now +Mm. +and there's this thing about I mean you know that there that we may be behaving, there may be erm ways that we behave that aren't actually functional th the, the society we've got now might not actually be functional because of the technology we've got +Yeah +well that's the problem +Yeah. +I mean +Yeah +then but when that becomes +No, oh no, certainly not, but, but I mean before we get to the prescriptive level which is quite er a, a long way down the road, at the analytic level I think, I think Anne-Marie's point is she's trying to understand erm just what the the significances of these difference in parental investment are. +Er the point I was making to her was erm in her paper which er was excellent by the way, I forgot to say and I think you put it all very clearly and very nicely,y you, you very nicely set out the basic idea that the consequence and that in principle a male need contribute nothing more than his penis. +Th th the point that erm we were then discussing was that in practice of course males may,m ma may contribute a lot more an and, and the question was is this er something to do with the adaptions of our species or is it just the this was the question you, you asked me wasn't it? +And Katherine's point was what the system today of course is quite different than what and that is of course completely true. +Erm, the, the question remains however +I mean er you, this is, this is your point really to what extent other other characteristics er may erm may be part of the same erm of the same thing for example if, look at sexual dimorphism. +Human beings as we know are sexually dimorphic and tha that figure seems to fit the er the, the pattern, but erm women have a lot of characteristics that are peculiar to them, like for example erm more youthful looks, women will retain more youthful looks longer than men do and it is normally regarded as important and a lot of women spend an awful lot of money in the modern society on trying to remain erm looking er looking youthful. +Now why is that? +Could that be for example because males with resources would want normally to acquire youthful wives, or perhaps it might in other words it could be couldn't it that if males provide resources to females that they can use for primal investment, this would then have selective effects on females who will want certain things in order to get erm the investment and one of the things they might want to do is to look youthful. +I dunno it kind of figures doesn't it or not? +Alex looks very sceptical. +No I don't, I'm still thinking about what you said yesterday about premature ejaculation +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yes. +and younger men +Th it all fitted together did it oh I oh I see +I was sort of like more light-hearted sort of er like er got plenty of money, but it's crappy pay. +Oh yes, I like the joke you know er er where one women says to another how could X possibly marry him you know +Yeah +he, he, he's +Got a nasty cough, providing disorders +you know he's short and ugly an and the other lady says to her but er you should see how tall he is when he stands on his wallet. +I mean +Yeah and he starts premature ejaculation +Erm +I mean it could be or it could be the reason why er why younger not +Yes, I mean it's generally true isn't it I think of all societies I can't think of any o of, of any exceptions that it normally is older males who have more resources. +I think in all societies I can't +It can older males that +Well +gonna say you know +yeah +There's an interesting study in the book printed by Bergahoff, Moulder and so on all those you know there's four, thing, thing and thing erm human reproductive whatever it is, it's on the reading list, of Kipsigy Payments now that's, has anybody read that? +Well that's interesting the Kipsigies are er traditional people who live in Kenya and if they have , in other words er men have to pay a certain amount to the erm you know, woman if they're gonna marry her and what they did was they study the and related it to the, to the girl that was actually getting married and what they found of course was that it fits the predictions of our theory er just as you'd expect, given that the cultural things you have to allow for like, like for example in that most traditional cultures they like er women to be plump as we'll see in the, in the actually fat is critical to female fertility and er so they might not have been plump, so what they did was they simply weighed the girls and they compared their, their, their weights with, with the, with the and sure enough strong correlation the fatter the girl, the bigger the . +In a way they were +and they had two they had two disabled girls, there are two girls who were erm you know physically er disabled, I forget what was wrong with them I think one had a clubfoot or something an and they were almost free they weren't completely free, but they were nearly free because of their disabilities and +Yeah, exactly, so if, if you look at it in terms of the Kipsigy you know system, you can clearly see that what they showed was youth and plumpness were the critical fac an an and attractiveness, if the girl was young, plump and attractive she got a high and if the girl was older erm, if she had something wrong with her or she was skinny, then the less and that's, so it's quite interesting +Did they find that the older men ? +Well, yes now in fact we know they have not in that study. +Now that doesn't the Kipsigy was just the study of the erm you know it's a good statistical it's good hard-hat social science you know with distribution and everything it's all good stuff, erm they don't say that, where we do know this is something I have researched myself very carefully, the Australian Aborigines erm we have rich data on this and I've read an awful lot of it and I compared notes with world authorities like David McKnight and erm erm what's his name erm Shapiro authority on this, and they agree that er that's definitely what happens. +In Australian Aborigines the young, the young girls go to the er the older powerful men . +Of course, if you think about it the consequences of that is these guys die and when they die, those wives that they married as young girls are now middle-aged women or possibly younger, anyway past their youth, but th th they, they may not be . +Certainly they're re-marriageable and these are societies where every woman is married but no spinsters, so they're redistributed. +Very often they have a bit of a say in it, because you know that the young girl hasn't got, but erm interestingly enough they tend to get recycled to young men and it's the older men that get the young girls from their older male and it's younger men who get . +You can sometimes get a situation that occurs where a man is married to a woman who is in fact his grandmother, this can happen. +This leads to horrifying +you think that if you work if you, if you think about it, in other words he has married a woman who is the mother of a wife of his father who he calls mother. +I happen to think this is the key to Australian classificated kinship society very stressful . +What is really going on is they are rigging a system to hide that kind of it's clearly anonymous to marry a woman who's your grandmother. +Yes, in the sense that +y y i it can happen and apparently sometimes does that the young man will receive a recycled wife who is in fact the mother of a daughter who has married his father and so he calls her the daughter-mother, her actual mother is his wife. +I see +Absolutely and this is why I think they get round this, they've solved this problem by saying okay folks, we will adopt a purely erm classificator or in other words fictitious, rigged system of kinship and we won't call there and that's what they do. +What effectively, I think, I mean I've never actually sat down because it would be an enormous mistake and nobody would thank me for it, but my guess is that those enormously complex classificated can be understood as a method by which old men rig the system for their own benefit and hide this kinds of ridiculous anonymous and the anomaly basically is the young men end up with old wives +When they get older +Right, that's what happens you see. +When they get +Could it be also that erm children I mean I dunno how they, the children are reared and what sort of situation . +Could it be that er evolution in sort of Aboriginal societies are more harsher than that allowed for a more experienced man to teach a young child how to live as opposed to, it, it's beneficial for +Yes +experience +That's right. +Again that, that is, is very clear and it's representing initiation rituals. +Because what happens you see in these societies and Australian Aborigines are with no exceptions is that if you want a wife if you're a young man and you want a wife you first of all gotta get initiated. +There's no way you will get a wife until you are initiated. +In fact you won't get any sexually mature erm er woman to have er any relationship with men, unofficial or otherwise if you're not initiated because they'll just say you're a boy and, and er and er an adult woman would feel it was demeaning you know to sleep with a mere boy, she'd insist you've got to be a man and to be a man you normally got to be initiated and that normally means being circumcised. +Now the, the initiations are controlled by the elder men who have all, all the wives and if you don't behave and join the club and conform to what th the crown elders expect, you won't get initiated and i if you don't unless you say you won't get any wives and the guys who are doing the initiating the initiated are the very same guys who have all the daughters. +So a young man really has to get initiated and conform to what the elders expect if he's going to have any reproductive success at all and that's exactly what happens. +So these guys undergo these horrifying initiation rituals to prove you know that they want to join the club band and i if they pass the initiation test then they're joined in and then they're given a wife. +In many societies David McKnight tells me the man who does the circumcision who actually chops off the foreskins as it were, owes you a wife for it and he says in many of them if you give a man your foreskin then you've got a right to demand a wife. +He says he knows cases where wives weren't given, and there were then very serious er conflicts broken up, because the man who didn't get the wife then thought he'd been cheated and apparently his complaint was you know er wife I give you my foreskin. +Apparently they talk like this. +David McKnight says this is the language they use you know. +Australian Aborigines are very direct about this so they, so they do expect something back for the initiation an and it's a kind of reciprocal thing where okay, you initiate me and I'll put up with all this crap from you, but you know, you give me a wife, you've got daughters I want a wife and er if I don't get it, there's gonna be real trouble and this is how the system works. +So you're quite right, the elder men have a tremendous control, not over on the over-supply of women, but also over the younger men. +How can that be beneficial I know what you're saying but +Well I think the answer to that is you've got to remember this kind of hunting is cooperative and cooperative hunting does rely first of all on having other men to go hunting with you which is, which is important and also or so I'm told by people like David McKnight and Warren Shapiro an awful lot depends on information, we want to know where the game is, who saw what where, what did they catch you know, was there rainfall over the so and so ranges and so on, and you need to know that information if you're gonna be an effective hunter and you need good communication with other men. +Er very often Australian Aboriginal societies you meet men the corroborees at these ritual gatherings and if you're one of the club, then in the ritual they'll tell you, they'll say hey, you know, you know you know you say where did you get all these kangaroos you know oh we got them over at the so and so ranges or down at the so and so water hole that's where they all are this week, and this is very important information for man. +If you're not a member of the club and you're not accepted the rituals and people don't like you, they won't tell you and as a result you won't be an effective hunter, you won't be able to support many wives even if you wanted them and if you have wives what they needed, because if a man doesn't feed his wives they, they, they all eventually get up and go, they'll say two fingers you know, you can't feed us. +This is one of the things I want you to se see today and this wonderful film I was gonna show today and I hope I'll show next week, third time lucky, they actually interview the wives, the polygynous wives of of some erm erm guy in Africa, some African erm and they to them they actually ask the wives, why do you, you know why are you married to this man and they say well he feeds us, you know th that's why we're married to him, he gives us food and he's apparently got five this particular man they interviewed, three of them were active and two of them were elderly, and the three active wives are quite open about the fact that this man's a good provider and therefore they stay with him, but they, they wouldn't in the case of Australian Aborigines, they wouldn't stay if they didn't get fed and they only get fed because he's a good hunter and to be a good hunter you need to go on good terms of men and that's how it works. +But of course it's, it's a very tough deal for women, I mean women in erm in a way really get the raw end of it because that to some extent they're at the mercy of the whole system, even though they can if they absolutely have to. +It's not easy and where's she gonna go? +You know she's gotta find someone else to go an and live with because by and large you can't survive on your own in the Australian outback certainly not if you're a woman, hardly if you're a man. +So it, it's as you say it's a very tough, hard life and in order to survive, people really do need the help of other people and that's why you've really got to conform to a large extent in the society and you haven't got a lot of choice about erm you know wh what you'd like to especially if you're, if you're young and female and not much men not if you want to get any wives that is. +So the erm but as, but as Katherine reminds us, I mean if, if that's the kind of life our emotional parameters are my, my guess is that that, is that that's probably the truth, certainly a persuasive argument . +Then when you look at the other range of human societies, then you have to say well you know how is it, how is it working out in other in other types of societies where all the basic erm conditions of life may be different and that of course is one of these big erm big and small problems that we still, we're still really at the at the starting point fact. +I mean does anybody think that parental investment theory is relevant at all to modern industrial society or is it completely irrelevant ? +Matthew you're a, you're a sceptic and a, and a, and a and an independent thinker what do you think? +I don't know, I'm not very sort of convinced one way nor the other +That sounds judicious. +Dean? +Well, I'm, I'm a supporter of it, which you know erm it, it strikes me being far more effective than other forms er of er explanation. +How much ice does it cut in the modern industrial society? +I think, I think it think it must cut quite a lot because I mean there's certain I don't these biological constraints. +How would they show themselves I mean? +What people to look you know in the modern society women don't have to rely on men or don't have to have traditional sex roles, this is a point of view isn't it? +Well I think er I think, well I think you have to have, I mean I don't really parental investment and stuff like that gestation period. +I think, I think that in any, I mean in, in, in, if you wanna, if you wanna look at it in terms I mean I think labour it it's always gonna have to be there and I think the biological constraints put the you know, sharpened device +Well there are ways aren't there I mean even in traditionally, I mean what of wet-nursing I mean that's an example isn't it where a woman gets another woman to do the job for her. +Darren is that, what point were you gonna make? +Well I think, like I said two ways one is erm +Mm +Or if you look at it another way that is men and women are equal and we haven't yet got round that they are very different but they are equal. +I dunno, er you know you can put woman staying at home having the child for instance when there aren't enough children to fill the schools realize that having children is a very important in economic values what with nations increasing staying at home +Yes I must say I, I personally sympathy with that I mean I think that erm, women's er role is er very much despised and disparaged it should be because if you think about it they're having the children and bringing them up, well this is one of the most worthwhile things to do +society you can't going to survive unless you have a woman back in the having the kids and we might see that as a you know you laugh when I say that, you know +Well he doesn't survive, he might survive +Alright, alright this is what I mean +yeah, yeah +but you know it's really difficult discussing this topic without people sniggering and getting all upset . +It's that they have equal decisions, really so you can't say . +It's only how we of behaviour +Well +but they are really equal because without one another, they're not gonna +I don't think, I don't think it will, I think erm certainly from a cultural point of view the questions that comes up of erm in that type of society they think sod this I'm going hunting, but the fact of the matter is the men . +I mean time of physiological difference and strength needs of their strength that they could just about fire a and he couldn't even pull them back and so they you know, fine if you wanna go hunting use the boat +Yeah +the arrows, but the +Yeah, yeah +and, it's but then it's a question of where a woman a woman could, but you know is it that easy to jump out cultural you know cultural investment provided by that and er you know y y y you +and if a man is slightly stronger other way round so he can collect, collect more food +and another argument which is that +Yeah, it's the, it's the with the word natural isn't it that er you know people often use the word natural to mean good and right and therefore something you should do, but of course no not always I mean if I said to you death is natural, nobody here would think I was advocating suicide or that er we shouldn't have hospitals to try and save people's lives I mean er when you say death is natural, what you mean is death is one of those things that we just have to put up with, we'd rather we didn't but we're all gonna have to face it in the end, some of us sooner than others er but erm but there we are. +However if you say erm oh well you know erm boys will be boys that's natural,tha that sounds as if you're kind of making excuses for them and condoning them, so I think you've got to be very careful about how you use the word natural and clearly it raises the whole question of how far you can, you can push erm cultural ideals against natural constraints an and what really is the issue. +You see it may be that Dean's right I must admit I think I, I agree with Dean I think he is right that the real problem is that natural selection may have fitted us by, as it were, rigging our emotional system. +It may be at a, at a truly rational level we can all perfectly well do all kinds of other things rationally on a truly rational level, because there we have this this er high degree of that comes with rationality, but at a deeper, kind of gut level,the emotional feelings we, we find that it's, it's much more difficult, and at that point if you don't try and change things and do things that are unnatural, you find you're kind of going against the emotional grain and er perhaps some people find it easier than others, but perhaps everybody will feel a certain erm tug as it were, certain erm discomfort or a certain emotional alienation from themselves which er perhaps is because we're trying to do something more basic we just weren't designed for. +I don't know I mean this would Would you sympathise with that Dean? +Yeah, yeah question so, so we're, we're saying that the difference between male and female roles in this disruptive selection. +Sorry remind us what you mean by disruptive selection again. +Where, well where er disruptive selection i i i is very huge differences between men, male and female and this was then accentuated over a period of time +Oh I see what you mean yes, fine, okay. +Okay, so are, so, so it's just tha tha tha that along with this a psychological context, so you got a biological and psychological going hand-in-hand simultaneously. +Yes, I mean this is the point I'll be developing later, later in, in, in the lectures, I'm currently spending a lot of time kind of researching and thinking about this, but i i it's ultimately the question of genes affect behaviour and more and more I come to the to the view that they probably do so erm through what we call our emotions, that our genes kind of erm guide us to do so and things through various subjective feelings like when we're hungry, we, we know we're hungry and it's a subjective feeling of hunger. +What is actually happening of course we know in that case what is actually happening, because nerves erm er neurones in, in the base of the brain are actually sampling the blood flow as it goes through with sugar level and when the sugar level drops to a critical point, some of those neurones start to fire and as they fire gradually the message is passed on up to the higher brain centres and eventually you get the feeling you're hungry. +Now, you, you're, that's a subjective feeling, you don't actually know that there are neurones in your blood sugar level, but you, you certainly know when you need something to eat and it, it's a kind of subjective feeling and it's not farfetched in the least to claim that our genes have rigged our brain in that way to do that because obviously we'd like to have more reproductive success if you know when you're hungry than when you don't and it may be that a lot of, in a lot of other ways genes affect our, our behaviour through similar erm effects, that is subjective feelings we have, often of an emotional nature to make us want to do certain things and an an and dislike doing others, and it may be that we, we're really kind of lumbered with that. +Why is it in the genes why is it people are able to adjust their diets +Well, oh yes, I'm sure I'm not saying that's the only thing that controls people's food intake I mean clearly there are things cultural some cultures, the Japanese seem to love eating raw fish, I mean how they can bring themselves to do it I do now know, I mean the raw is I don't think I'd want to eat again, but er erm not always if they were cooked either, but erm the, the er and certainly if you look at the Australian Aborigines even though we take the Australian Aborigines as our kind of primeval people, they have astonishing food taboos, I mean their attitudes to food are very very culturally er effective to, to a quite extraordinary extent, some so that somebody somebody discovered that eating a tabooed food by accident, they'll get very ill, a kind of psychosomatic illness. +So I'm not saying th th that there aren't these th the important other inputs, but, but what I am saying is that if you ask yourself where the kind of gene behaviour interface really exists is clearly in the human er in, in the human mind and it may be that the basic kind of parameters erm have, have been set for our emotions and I really don't see how we can change those. +I was thinking for instance when you have generation of young men how do you, what's the time left to something extreme can be done culturally and people can be sort of you know convinced that they're right and that they go out there and get machine guns can be done culturally, whereas +Well it may be of course that that kind of thing has always tended to happen gather of society skirmishing goes on and young men are expected to go and find very often +Yeah, yeah, more immediately, but I mean when they're sort of it has +Well then I agree, then I, then I think you do need a fairly sophisticated psychological theory to try and explain er how that could come about. +That's one of the reasons why I'm, why I'm also interested in er in Freud because I think Freud provides that, I happen to think that Freud's studies of, of crowd group psychology actually explain that, although it takes time to you know, certainly not at five minutes to four, it takes time to explain, but I think there is an explanation there and I think you c y y you can claim that there are certain emotions to do with identification and idealization,th that our genes have a programmer which things like erm nationalistic erm, erm er kind of jingoism can exploit in a modern culture which in primal cultures would have primal cultures people identify with their, with their local kin and their local culture and that's that might ultimately promote their reproductive success, but that in modern cultures, this identification occurs with erm on a completely different level and with lots of people will not merely because you need so many more people modern cultures you have much more erm much bigger groups and you just meet many more people that, than you were ever th there is some interesting research, research recently published for instance which shows erm organizations seem to have a critical size and that people are not really able to track more than about two hundred and fifty other people, in other words you can have face-to-face relationships with up to about two hundred and fifty others, but once it gets beyond two hundred and fifty it's too much and you start forgetting somebody as if the brain was primed to an optimum group size and once you get above that you just can't keep . +Have you read about that? +That's right, I would say so +Yeah +That's right, yeah yeah. +Yeah +That's right yeah. +Is there also something to do what's happening in Eastern Europe . +They say you know Swiss +Well you see the, the, the great Soviet experiment is a good example isn't it of, of a whole civilization was based on a o o on a kind of great social experiment was based on ultimately on erm unsound principles and then a part of the scenes. +Er and I suppose the great you know lesson of social sciences in, in some ways if it's, if it's for anything it ought to be to try and avoid that kind of disaster, because erm if we understood ourselves better we might you know in the future try and avoid that thing because we just wouldn't attempt if, if that wasn't an attempt to be . +So erm I mean the justification for this kind of course I would claim is ultimately to try and make people more realistic about what is possible and er the, because th th the advantage of knowing what's possible is you can avoid impossible experiments that ultimately result in disaster for everyone. +Well sceptical silence, but that's what I'd like to think that we, we were doing. +Well yes. +Drug, anti-drug legislation may be another thing. +Of course drugs is, is one of the wonderful examples that the very thing that Katherine was talking about, something that wasn't there in the beginning and that has been produced by modern technology and is now a big problem, but is not a problem to Australian Aborigines because they don't have any drugs er to speak of, of course now they do and alcohol is a terrible problem with Australian Aborigines I talked to David McKnight about it. +Absolutely awful . +Well the Australians are at least trying to didn't have much success apparently +Really? +and they went loco +Folks it's four o'clock erm just a second erm just before you go let me remind you next week it's Laura. +Okay? +And Darren we gotta, I'll see you in just a sec. +Hello. +Ah really? +Erm, who, who gave you the message? +Oh er, I, I don't think I ra I don't think I rang you actually, er I wonder if the message was from someone else. +Erm, I do need to see you some time erm let me just just see erm, but I've got your erm your last term's report here that we need to meet to discuss. +Er, could, could we make a date? +Erm, as I said it wasn't me that phoned originally, my guess is that there may be somebody else at the school who is trying to contact you, but while you're on the line, let's just make a little let's just make a little date. +Erm what about, when would be convenient for a quick tutorial? +What about Thursday? +Right. +What about next week, what about Monday? +Right y your day off, well that means you don't want to come into the school? +Okay next Monday, what time would suit you? +Right. +Right. +Could we make it at erm two P M? +Right, that's two P M next Monday the first February, okay. +See you then. +As I said I didn't phone, I dunno who it was. +Erm, it might be an idea to try and get hold of him whoever took the message cos it might be something important, but anyway I'm glad you phoned. +Thanks, bye . +Right now, sorry to keep you waiting for a minute. +Erm, now did we, did we do your reports? +No. +Right, let's, let's do that first cos that's important. +Erm, I'll have to sign the form. +There we are, right. +Right I got all four here of course I didn't bother to write a comment cos I'm delighted. +I've given you an A for participation B plus for written work and that gives you an average of B which is good or excellent. +So that's alright there's no problems there. +Now Mr 's philosophy +Aha. +has given you A for participation which is good, C for written work which is satisfactory and B minus for assessment, so it actively participates er gave a paper for the class, but no second essay. +Does that mean you owe him an essay or something? +No,essays, you got both you've got two essays. +Well, right he's, this was probably written before he got the second one, because they would have done this last term +They were handed in on time, handed in on time. +Well, perhaps you ought to bring that +He marked them both. +I should raise that with him +He's marked them both +Has he? +Yeah. +Right. +I mean I got pretty bad marks I find it difficult, find it very difficult. +Really? +Well, it's frustrating the hell out of me you know. +Why's that? +I've never done any + +ooh well. +Right what can I do for you today . +Er you sent me on I'm gonna go, and I came up before the receptionist. +She said something about changing it. +Oh aye right, right that was for your x-rays Robert. +Right, aye, that's right. +Starting to show a bit of arthritis, in the knee. +That's what begun you your trouble, down there. +Basically like I say it's just when I, when I bend it, +Mhm. +to extension like, you know. +That's right. +Thirteenth Is this when your line's due Robert? +Yeah it's roughly about. +Round about now. +Aye. +There we are now. +And I think he'll have it in for you. +Right you are, thanks a lot, Doctor . +Okay? +Right. +Just keep that knee moving as much as you can. +As I say it's when I take the bandage off at night. +Aye. +to the wife, +Aye. +if you get what I mean. +Aye. +Listen you you've got +you've got to watch, don't let it down, bandage it all the time, Robert. +Give yourself an hour or two at night +Aye, aha, aye. +just getting it keeping it moving. +Right you are. +Keep the joint,what's happening is the the the smooth side is starting to get a wee bit rough and if you can keep that rubbing off the other bone it smooths it down. +Great. +Aye, aye +Okay? +So you're taking a file +Aye, aye. +and filing away a rough edge . +If you do it'll keep moving for years and years and years no problem, but if you let the two of them sit +Aye, got you. +They'll seize and that. +Aye. +They'll they'll weld, they'll weld together Robert and that'll stiffen, stiffen and stiffen as the years go on. +Right you are. +So just keep that slight +Aye. +movement in it. +Cheers. +Okay? +Right you are. +Okay, cheerio now. +Ta-ta. + +Long fingering of manuscript and I thought the fingering. +I now it's putting it on +I thought the long fingering of man should was a lovely expression +Where was that, you said that? +Isle of +Isle of oh +Isle of and they sh what she went on to say is erm I hope to redress this in the shortly in other words she's shortly going to but I must say I like the expression long fingering you know bloody idle you know. +Mm. +So you haven't got it back? +No, no she said she's gonna redress the balance very shortly. +Erm when I find my glasses I +Now I've got to leave at three thirty. +Okay well we'll +Okay Kath, right. +Erm let me just see if I've got a I made a whole page of notes here dunno whether any of its important. +Erm I've got the Observer Ghost Story winners we can leave that for another week. +Erm the talks erm Gillian Thornton is gonna speak to us on the 23rd of February just to remind you and I've actually prepared some notes on play writing which we can fit in some time during this sort of session. +Erm homework I'm +Come and sit down Janet. +Ann +Hello, +Well let me just say quickly we're being recorded there's there's someone er who's gotta er a project organisation by the Oxford University Press who's interested in our spoken word +Right +and he's going to ask each of us to sign a a permission form in the end, because we have our we all own the copy right you know our own spoken word and er in order that this man can use what we actually speak today, is showing to want us individually to sign a form. +I don't think there's any sort of danger in it it's it's in fact for use in constructing a dictionary really. +Erm so it's they're really interested in our use of language. +Erm I told you about that chap Michael Bell who wrote to me about using my book as play, I'll read you his letter some other week. +Erm John's Dream the National Playwright's Network actually wrote back to me and said they're quite happy to read your plays for a fee erm but I intend to re-write that before I put it in er for a reading erm Oh,I I sent a poem called Pleasure to Woman's Weekly in June last year and I suspect they were actually planning to use it but they've had a New Year's clear-out and I got it back yesterday. +Erm Foxes in the Garden with the R S P C A photos I had rejected yesterday as well, so that was a good day. +Erm I brought in the old flurry tape,I 've I've taped I taped our when you've read my play for me, I erm I taped it and I made a copy for Dave I you know, erm Cybil makes a good effort in that so eventually I'll lend you the tape. +Yeah that's eventually I'll lend you the tape for that erm we can pass it round. +Erm Mr. Parish I mentioned, sorry your name is Jim? +Jim +Jim did you say? +Jim and he's proposing to listen to the group today with the views to joining. +Jim has written, like myself his background is in technical writing for a living and he's gotta particular interest in American writers and the use of American language er I gather. +Right well I'll start today if you don't mind and we'll go round in the normal way erm when we come to Pat. +Pat has got five thousand odd words to read to us, so if we can scoot round fairly quickly today. +Well we'll leave him till last if he's got +Yeah well that's, what I was +like that yeah +In other words you know you +What I was Pat is five thousand words is really too bit a bite you know if you really want people to criticism off it, you wanna break it down into sort of two thousand word chapters really. +I couldn't get to the first part again and yeah that's right +Even though you you feel it's off your back you've written, you can still read it out +I could go er that wouldn't be a bad idea, because part of it would make sense to finish. +Yeah well if you like. +Yeah. +You know five thousand +It is quite a lot to read I mean I read a short story last week. +Two seven . +It was Two Seven and that even seems quite long you know to +That's right +It's quite long in the reading +five thousand is as +Yeah +as Cybil mentioned you know I mean if if we want to criticise your first ten words it comes a bit hard up to five thousand you know. +something that makes sense to carry on +Mm +Okay +Can I just mention that nobody's read that but you'll see the last sentence says that whatever you put on that tape the dictionary keep the copyright you see and that's all right when you're on conversations, but if you were to to read in an and it was a short story, if that's you know i if they reserve +Very observant yes, yes +but Jim makes the point he said that if if if when you sign a declaration you say +Er yeah exclude your short story, otherwise it could mean on you know it could be taken out and sold somewhere and then in interest you would sell your own for selling your own word you know that could be a possibility. +Well nobody's really saying in case when any of us sign it, we must sign excluding the written work +yes, yes, yeah +read out and if you exclude it, I think if all us do that +the best thing is to read something we've already had published. +Well +I think it's something like that +Oh, the one that keeps up to date and updates the Oxford English +Yeah, I think Even so, I think as David says, it would probably be wise to exclude your exclude your written work. +I mean by the piece I'm reading you today, I've already submitted to the B B C and if I sell it +if it's something that's +If if they they take it, then I've sold the copyright to the B B C and I'm not in a position to offer it to anybody else anyway erm +So will the tape last for the whole two hours? +Yes, apparently. +B B C. +Yes. +I don't want any of your bad language Janet . +Right well let me just +surely +. +This this is I I I'll start off as I say I've I've written a covering letter to +Bank and Mitchell of the B B C and I I thought I'd read you the letter as well, because the letter does what we've often said about setting the block plan. +Erm I say I enclose a short story for your consideration. +In this story the principal character is a grumpy old house with a malevolent sense of humour. +It is newly occupied by a young couple. +In the first conflict situation the house launches a minor attack on the wife whilst possibly saving the husband from real harm. +The couple settle in. +Minor conflicts occur with the couple trying to pacify her, this continues up to a black moment when the house relents and saves them and then I say and this is important I think when you write for a radio, I have marked one paragraph with red brackets. +This paragraph is optional depending on the reading speed. +Without it, my version occupied a few seconds under fifteen minutes. +The play is written for a Hertfordshire accent or similar and then you know I enclose and I say return if you don't like it. +Incidentally Janet, did your piece ever come back or erm +Yes +Oh, it's come back. +Came back. +Oh. +Oh Was it the Black Dog? +No, that came back after all that time erm,no this this was the call called The Birthday it was about a split in the future where she erm +Oh yes +was a little girl on her fifteenth birthday and has it it's like an M O T Certificate, only it's an M O L Certificate for life that you have to do after your sixty five. +Well I sent it to the B B C, I sent it to Duncan but I also sent it to the the Lady a shorter version to the Lady their competition and I said their competition was gonna be on the eighteenth in their issue they would give the names of the of the winners, but I had looked in the Lady yesterday in Smiths and there was none of nothing about it, but I don't think I've won anyway because it said you'd be notified by post so. +that they run late on +Yes it does. +I've had one away five months to but I I I +No, but this has been published It's been published December the fourteenth and I haven't had my copy yet which was in Central England. +Oh,Central England. +Yes +Yours was sent to sent on to the charity work. +Oh, you did do it and I didn't. +Very important. +Right I'll read you this piece and you'll have to forgive my facsimile of a Herts. accent. +Home sweet home my Roy Ramsay. +We fell in love with the cottage at first sight. +It was snowing the January day we moved in. +The cottage was old and grumpy, she didn't make us welcome. +Cottage means small house. +This house was large and had four bedrooms. +She didn't like her name, she didn't like anything. +I was a young man, I was virile and vigorous. +She didn't like me . +I well remember our first night with the aid of father-in-law we spent a long day moving ourselves in. +He was in a van and two estate cars we made many short journeys. +We'd loaded and unloaded furniture, tools, books and crockery, the contents of house and garage, greenhouse, garden and shed. +The cottage had solid brick walls, none of your modern self-insulating cavities. +The ancient boiler had sat in sullen silence for ten days, a drifting cave under a mountain would have offered more comfort. +The rooms were too chilly for the youngsters, so we left with mother-in-law. +I bought some coal and lit the sulky boiler. +Four hours later the cottage had allowed the temperature to rise a degree above freezing. +We made a last cup of tea on the camping stove and retired midnight. +We lay awake all night startled by strange sounds. +We was too cold to sleep, to exhausted to search out extra blankets from unlabelled tea chests. +Holding each other close we wondered if this was a senseless move from a tiny cosy semi. +In the morning the fire was cold and the cottage once more below freezing, she burst a boiler. +While I was making some tea there was a tremendous crash. +Me wife screamed. +I flew up the stairs to find a huge hole in the ceiling, at the foot of the bed covered with plaster and ice. +Water ran from the hole. +Of course at that time we didn't realise she'd done it on purpose. +We had just finished finding the wife some dry clothes when there was an explosion downstairs. +The camping stove had blown up. +At least I was upstairs when it happened, no-one was hurt. +We waited, tea-less all day for the gas man to connect the cooker. +We had fish and chips from the local chippy for lunch, dinner and supper. +The fire had a good appetite too in the cold, we burnt exactly one ton of anthracite in that freezing January. +Life got back to normal, we picked up our bearings. +The back of the house faces south, an avenue of giant elms and a few old oaks lay over that way. +The house on our western side had been empty for years. +It's back garden was a jungle. +Among lots of small trees was seven fifty foot black it's front garden held two mighty elms. +I loved the trees, but having this forest next door, made sure our garden only saw the sun as he moves from east to west early in the morning. +The rest of the day we never saw him. +We loved our home in the woods down in the lane. +She didn't love us. +Outside, the cottage walls were a horrible battleship grey, the woodwork was depression brown. +The interior was dull and decrepit with lots of layers of ancient wallpaper. +My wife and I loved a challenge in those days and we could see what it might become with hard work, but it was a real challenge, no mistake. +We tackled the house bravely enough, we started with the childrens bedrooms. +Next we did the kitchen and breakfast room where we fits an efficient gas boiler. +We battles on in dining and sitting rooms. +We found out that the sitting room had a timber panelled ceiling which had been papered over and given lots of coats of whitewash. +Father-in-law and me soldiered six weeks to restore it looks now. +We papered and painted two big bedrooms, bathroom and toilet. +We installed bigger radiators everywhere we went. +We began to win the temperature battle. +Lastly, worst of all the landing hall and stairs, all those doors, all that white paint. +Several times the cottage tried to throw me from the scuffle boards, one night she succeeded, I got a badly twisted ankle. +I told her you won't defeat me. +Next year my wife starts in earnest on the gardens, driving back to Blackberry and Elver, while I experiments with the outside colour scheme. +All the walls I gives three coats of brilliant white stone paint, easier to say than to do. +Black and white seemed a suitable work, the front door was painted long yellow. +As I say, the back of the house faces south, the summer sun was on the upper frames all the time. +He soon blistered the glass in black. +With a fight the frames were changed to white and yellow which reflects the heat rather than absorb it. +Time passed, we improved the house. +I hoped she'd begin to feel grateful. +We fitted new carpets, lamps and staircase. +One summer I changed both sets of French windows for doors with Georgian frames. +I give myself one hundred and twenty new panes to varnish round, who says we grows wiser as we grows old. +The house grinned. +The owner of the near-ruined house next door came and had his forest felled to sell the property. +We gained a sunny outlook and some neighbours to enjoy. +The house smiled. +The let in some afternoon sun which burnt the still black paint on the front paint work. +I saw what she'd been smiling at. +We settled for yellow and white all round. +The two boys shared a bedroom, the spare room was our office, the boys were six years apart in age. +In a few years their needs were very different, the young one needed to be in bed and the older one wanted to play music with his friends. +Then my wife had her brain wave. +There was a wide space beside the staircase, the stairs rose up to the boys' bedroom wall, then turned left to join the landing. +On the landing the first door on the left opened up a walk-in cupboard. +Why not, my wife says, knock a hole through the boys' bedroom wall, pinch a three foot six strip off it and make a new landing passage and extend the walk-in cupboard, forward to take up the old landing and sideways to build a space out to the main part of the stairs. +It was brilliant. +When the work started the house was furious, she put every possible obstacle in the way of the builders and arranged for it to rain as soon as the slates come off. +She made sure all the plumbing and wiring was in the path of progress. +Every hole drilled in the walls met a stone, she blunted every tool. +When everything was finished, the younger boy moved in. +For weeks we bumped into strange doors whilst making our way to bathroom and toilet in the dark. +The house chuckled. +At last, to pacify her, we fitted a new bathroom. +That magnificent cottage suite with gold- plated fittings should have pleased her. +She showed no sign. +To prevent her playing nasty tricks on us we had all the old lead and iron pipes taken out and the rust galvanised tanks replaced with trusty burst-proof fibreglass. +We thickened up the insulation in the loft to deaden the midnight sound of her dropping chips of toil on our bedroom ceiling. +At last, I thinks I seeks her problem. +In the dead of night I crept down to the breakfast room, the nerve centre. +Listen house I says, you are not a small house, the cottage never was suitable. +We are going to change your name, we are going to call you the +Wallering Remember Christopher Robin, his wise old house spelt his name Wal We're going to name you for the elms at the foot of the garden. +In a fit of temper she arranged for all the surrounding elms to catch Dutch Elm Disease and quickly died. +This drove out the tawny owls. +She could be a nasty devil in those days. +Suddenly I was struck down by an illness. +When I was at me lowest me wife beat me, she excelled herself and managed magnificently when the family's happiness depended on it. +I went blind in me right eye overnight. +At first I could find no cause, I panicked, if I could go blind in one eye without a cause, perhaps I could go blind in the other. +I could become a burden to me wife and family, not only that, if I couldn't pay the mortgage they might throw us out of the cottage. +I started two schemes, first I increases the monthly payment on the mortgage, then I starts a separate savings account. +Gradually the mortgage comes down and the savings goes up, but there's still a gap. +Then, bugger I down dead if she didn't get me. +I was painting the back of the house one Saturday, when she shook me off the ladder, I got a compound fracture on me left leg. +Well, I'd had so much time on the sick, they put me on half pay. +I couldn't pay the mortgage. +Things got very black indeed. +The bank was hard, they said they would foreclose if things didn't improve shortly. +At last the house relented. +As I lay in me bed each night, I heard an eerie, moaning sound from overhead. +On the third night I woke the wife, she couldn't hear it. +The boys never heard it either. +When they was all out at work on Monday, I could stand it no longer, I pulled down the loft ladder and dragged meself up it, plaster and all. +On Thursday, my brother Dick the doctor visits me. +We did ya this copper kettle he asked, I've not seen that before. +Oh, I've been hearing strange noises up in the loft lately and I got up there to see what it was. +Do you remember, Granny used say copper kettles was lucky. +Well I found an old brown paper parcel tucked right away in the corner where the noise was a- coming from, but I couldn't find what was making the noise, I opened the parcel and found this old kettle. +All black it was, I spent two days cleaning it up. +See, the kettle is copper and the stand is brass. +Look, it's got a lovely little spirit stove underneath, it's got a boar hunt engraved right round the middle. +Let me have a close look at it says Dick, putting on his glasses. +Dick is my next youngest brother, he's been the village doctor round her for twenty years and a keen collector of antiques since he was married. +I passed the kettle to him. +He removes the lid and examines the whole thing closely. +He hangs and hoars a bit then studies the trivet the smooth stove with its little lid on a chain. +You've got a fine here he says. +Don't you know a list of every time is marked W F S in a diamond. +Yes, I did see that, I says. +Does it mean anything important? +Yes, I think it does he says. +If I'm not mistaken, it means it was made by W F Smith of Stockton in about seventeen hundred. +It was always an ornament, it was never meant to be used as an every day kettle. +It would pay you to run this up to Sotheby's for evaluation, they've got a man there who specialises in things like this. +Thanks Dick I says to him, taking it from him and passing the bottle, perhaps I will, I'd no idea it might be valuable, I just like copper and brass bits and pieces. +Well of course you can guess the rest, I took it up and had it valued and then put in an auction. +We got nine thousand five hundred for it. +I bought did Dick a bottle of and paid off the mortgage. +We're sitting pretty now. +At last the house has made our peace with us and hangs on to her slates in the gardens. +Having got the kettle was certainly lucky for me. +The funny thing is I never heard that noise again. +Fred Thomson has been reading Home Sweet Home by Roy Ramsay. +. +Yes it's struggle in accent +Yeah,I I wrote the thing as you remember about eighteen months ago, but it had no conflict in it you know we're all the same and stories must have conflict, so I got the house to burst the ceiling on the wife +Yes +and then while he was upstairs seeing and helping his wife, then the the stove blew up downstairs, now that might have been the house saving from a real disaster whilst attacking his wife in a minor way, or it might have been pure coincidence. +But er +Hertfordshire where they +the other the black moment you know th the bit where I I put in the bit where the he broke his leg and the mortgage was gonna be foreclosed on him I mean that builds up to the black moment which is a necessary part of the story and then he got out of it erm because the house relented and showed him where the copper kettle was that was worth the money. +use the word black seems to be getting very black. +There is consensus out there of some people who their self politically correct and they do not like the word +There was a man being interviewed on tele the other night he said that these people are trying to destroy the English language by their +I won't be changing it. +How many words does that write +It's I've I was telling David outside that I've absolutely butchered it and I it's erm two thousand one hundred and sixty. +As I +Two thousand one hundred and sixty now? +Yeah. +Oh. +Why does it seem longer? +T frankly, yes it did, but I mean you were reading it pretty well correctly the way they read I mean most of us read things I know I do myself, one reads things quicker than perhaps some would if we were reading them on a radio or something. +Well I've been practising this. +and erm if you listen to things on the radio they they have at the end of a sentence or at the end of some sentence quite a pause for a second before they go on +Well as I've taped that I taped it at home +Mm. +but as I wrote this and you know put in the acc th the conflict, it came up to two thousand five hundred words and I taped it and timed it and I've been butchering it and cutting out all the really nice little sentences and the nice sentences and I've got it down to two one sixty and now with that announcement on the end,as I've got it taped, it's fourteen minutes fifty-nine seconds for a fifteen minute slot, so it's about as precise as you're gonna get it. +Yes. +Erm and I may have slowed down a little today, I don't know I should have timed it again. +What +It's fiction Kath stop worrying. +I know. +A kettle. +There was one though on the Antique Road Show where there's erm er girl brought in a kettle and they've been using it just every day and it was pottery and it was actually to buy her her own house. +Showed it the following week. +Yeah well we've got a little antique box a jewellery box and it's embossed the pattern round it, and the pattern round it is a boar hunt and it's beautiful, there's a little boar galloping his heart out with horsemen after him with spears and he's all the way round the box and I thought of adding him on to the copper kettle you know as engraved all round the outside. +I've got no idea of what it might fetch, but as I say it is fiction Kath, don't worry about it. +No, I was just enthralled +Absolutely. +Well I was watching one of those Antique Road Shows quite recently and I found a chap got one of those little sort of two inch diameter one inch high chamber pots and he said and where did you get this and she said er at a car boot sale and he said and how much did you pay and she said twenty five P. +He said well you're very lucky he said by my estimation that's worth four thousand pounds +I was, I was thinking cos I've got an old copper kettle +Right, well the time's passing we will have to push on. +Have you got anything Peter? +Yes. +A certain no dialogue today or anything like that. +This is one of my film articles which I mean it's of the things that I've sent of and I know it will be published because I belong to the Cinema Veterans cinema and television veterans and they have this quarterly magazine and almost certainly you know it will be published in there, there's no +There's confidence that's what I like to see. +Well I mean you don't get paid for it or anything. +Oh. +there's no money in it +Oh well that's a bit of a letdown Peter. +Yeah, no well. +Did you send your other one in +Yes, I have I posted it off during the week to My Weekly, because I thought because the it was about a girl in all trouble, I think it +You're telling avoid that +like perhaps appeals to womens magazines more than the other stuff but I know that I mean it's not romantic in that way is it's not a romance +No. +Oh +Yes. +This is +Right Peter +This is called the Men Who Called Action. +In the past the British Film Industry has produced many great directors, Sir Reed, Michael Powell, David Lee to name but three. +These top directors will not be forgotten in the future, for apart from their films, much has also been about them. +At the same time as these directors were making their classy films, there were many other directors churning out the cinema of workmanlike entertaining pictures. +It is to these directors many of whom the industry forgot in their later years that I wish to pay tribute. +One such director was Maclean Rogers who was born in 1899. +In the early thirties he was employed as an editor for Herbert Wilcox at British and Dominion Films at Elstree. +It was at B and D in 1932 that he directed his first film, the Mayor's Nest starring Sydney Howard. +He continued throughout the thirties making mostly low budget productions that were made to fulfil exhibitors quotas requirements. +During the 1940s he directed many films for and British National. +I envisage and this is what I believe to be his last film Not a Hope in Hell early in 1960. +Although mainly a director of low budget productions, he told me that before the war he concerned it a poor year if he did not earn six thousand pounds, quite a sum for those days. +The last time I saw him was at Walton Studios a few months before they closed down and the was he was doing he said he was unable to get a film to direct, so he was going to be Herbert Wilcox first assistant director on his forthcoming production. +Unfortunately, this film was never made. +Another director also born just before the turn of the century was John Harlow. +In his early years he appeared in concert parties. +He was also a musical performer and also acted on the dramatic stage. +He entered the film industry in 1927 as an assistant director. +Spellbound was the first film he directed in 1940. +It was a low budget production but drew a certain amount of attention as it attempted to explore spiritualism. +Derek Fowler was the leading actor. +John Harlow directed a series of films for British National, but probably his biggest success was While I Live which featured the very popular music the Dream of . +In the 1950s he was finding work hard to come by. +In 1955 he was employed for one week by Douglas Fairbanks Limited at Elstree as a cover director, British cover director on a T V film that was being directed by an American. +He spent the week sitting in an office at the studio where in the past he had directed at least six feature films. +Ernest Morris born 1950 started in the business as a trainee on the construction side at Gainsborough's Lime Grove Studios. +He later transferred to the production department as an assistant director. +His opportunity to direct came from the Danzega Brothers He directed many of their T V series and second feature films. +In 1961 they made their last T V series, Richard the Lionheart. +Ernie directed all the thirty-nine half-hour episodes, just two second features without a break. +He continued to direct films for Geof Parsons and others, but when the market for supporting films came to an end, he found it hard going. +He would have been quite happy to have been employed as a production manager an or as an assistant director of which he was first class but the work did not come his way. +He ended his li his work in life as a postman. +Robert Asher, brother of camera man Jack Asher, was born in 1916. +He entered the industry as an assistant director in 1934. +Over the years he became one of the top first assistant directors in the country. +He began directing in 1959 with Follow a Star, a Norman Wisdom film. +It was a success and he went on to direct five mor Wisdom comedies. +He also directed a Morecambe and Wise film and co-produced and directed with his brother, She'll Have a Go. +He also directed a number of episodes of various T V series, but then the same old story, little work. +He would also have been happy to have found work as a production manager or an assistant director. +The last time I saw him was at Pine er was at on the as T V series at Pinewood, where he was acting second unit director. +He was a very dispirited man. +I will mention two other directors who sometimes made slightly higher budget films, Lance Comfort 1908 to 1967 his many films included and Temptation Harbour and Lawrence Huntingdon 1900 to 1967. +His films include the Upturned Glass and the Franchise Affair. +Both these directors fared much better than the other I have mentioned insomuch as they were working right up until their death. +The directors I have mentioned I knew personally. +There were many others of equal merit who deserve to be remembered, perhaps someone else would care to write about. +I mean it's you know, it's just to to people in the film industry and obviously it has little interest reading it to +There was one which you said Ernest Morris was born in 1950. +Fifteen. +Oh, fifteen. +Yes. +I thought he said fifty as well. +Oh no, fifteen. +I was gonna say you you s I thought you said 1950 and you said he was directing in 1961, you know I +The ordinary cinema goer sees a lot of glamour in directing and producing and God knows what else, but you you really postman +No, well he was he I knew him quite well because I lived in at that time when I w was on that T V series, I lived at Pinner. +He also lived at Pinner and erm then the work dried up and he first of all he did work was a postman at Christmas time, you know just as a thing and then he started you know then he became full time you know. +Were there no jobs sort of in between the director and the +Well there were the jobs tha that I mentioned really, production manager or assistant director and now he would have been quite happy I know to have done those, because I remember talking about it you know er and he would have been very good at either of them, but erm er he he didn't get well he was a slightly abrasive man,he he he his erm I I think in a way erm he was a director who could who was not really a very good film director, he he could get things done very quickly and that's why he worked for bash, bash, bash getting through everything quickly. +He didn't have much finesse to do the things but erm and I think he used to sh he although I I got on all right with him, but some of the people working on the floor like the wardrobe people and that he used to they used to dislike him because he was but I would but you do find s I think perhaps he was a bit unsure of himself because I don't think he was somebody who'd had a had a tremendous education, otherwise he probably wouldn't have gone in on the on the construction side which was being a chippy or something at Shepherds Bush and so you know you often find people like that they have a bit of a chip on their shoulders don't they you know, you know. +Plus I learned that you know from from our group reading of my play the other week, I learned what the function of a director was because you know obviously I shouldn't have given you all your parts to read for a week to sort of work out what the inflection should have been. +Yeah, because +They've just given you a first read. +You don't realise how many inflections are possible in one word and every important word the wrong inflection was used you know. +I thought ah, now that's what a director sorts out, you know I mean that was that was er very useful. +That Castle was that the story by A J +Yeah. +Yeah, a really good book that, I've got that at home. +Right, Janet, your go. +Oh she's got a B B C letter. +Refusal oh yes. +Er do y it's er printed, it's nothing er I enjoyed reading your material this is B B C. +Mm. +or you won't. +I enjoyed reading your material, but after consideration I'm afraid to say that I cannot make use of short stories. +We receive up to a hundred and forty week +Oh. +and while we do consider each one, cannot offer individual reports or criticisms of every script that arrives. +Many of the stories selected for short story are from published collections established authors some are commissioned specifically for the slot. +We do use new writers, but they have to compete with these other sources. +Briefly the requirements for short story are for fictional narrative based er narrative based scripts of two thousand one hundred to two thousand three hundred words do not use a factual accounts or anything longer or shorter on this, nor can we consider 60 Writers Monthly +No, no. +Well +I get it but I don't read it. +something about a novel you know. +Janet,Not what you write what you said B B C +Yeah. +Well it's, it's very much an , but I mean it's my ambition to break into it. +you know. +Yeah, but you know I mean you gotta keep +Thi this really everything in life doesn't it +Yeah +or nearly everything. +Yes. +I mean if you're +Yes, if you've got the right name +If you've got the right name, if you've a a number of or something coming in to for a part and of of them you've seen on television and done a lot equally or as good or better, but you're gonna be go for that one probably. +That's right. +An and everything they be be architects or something, you're gonna pick one who's who who said well I did that building at London Airport or something like that. +Next thing, next one I'll send in I'm gonna sign it anonymous because my name may dissuade you. +Oh it's a shame because that piece was brilliant, I'm surprised they didn't take that was very good +Yeah , I'm very surprised about that, I really thought,I I'm +or I was +but I really thought +particularly the length of time that was away I was really sure that had got on to incidentally it's worth saying that the B B C re they do they use professional readers who make a report on every piece they receive and they file them. +So if ever you read work apiece, and re-submit it, you must change the title because if if you send it in, they look up to see if they've seen that title before, if it was rejected before it will be rejected automatically. +So if we do a work you must change the title. +Do magazines do they same? +I don't know. +but certainly the B B C do +It was +It was Ralph was it? +Yeah,I I've well that makes a change you know I mean some of my stuff's come back from them and I've wondered whether they've read it. +Yes, I've noticed that with magazines, but this was erm sort of er you know. +No, it looks as though +Do you think Janet should send it to one of the other regions like Manchester or somewhere +Why don't you, why don't you send it to erm let me see what's her name erm Gilligan Hush +Gill Gillian yeah +Gilligan Hush of Radio Manchester. +They're very keen on new playwrights. +Yeah, but not cockney accents. +Yeah, well give it a try, give it a try. +She tries all sorts of accents. +I mean th there's a competition for a monologue for Wales, but who wants I mean +Ah well, give it a go +understand All these +Well give it a go, I mean a monologue is a monologue, they're not saying a Welsh monologue are they? +No. +Well give it I didn't know that, I'm er +Yeah they assess in Writers Monthly +Oh well that +or was it in erm perhaps it was in the that you got. +Yes, Variety. +Variety. +You see the piece I just read is a monologue and if I'd known there was a competition for it I'd have sent it there rather than to +Yeah and this is Writers er erm +Magazine. +Magazine, Writing Magazine +Oh I don't have that one. +Which is part of Writers erm +Writers Weekly I would have thought, Writers News. +Well +Writers News. +Oh, Writers News +Yeah, the other one. +Writers News. +Which I might do when this er present year runs out. +Well I buy Writers Monthly, but I never read the damn thing, you know, so I +Well this is and I noticed erm sort of do my in this particular one, she said she's interested in North American Indians +Oh. +Yeah. +and and she said something about through her interest in North American Indians she'd written this novel. +She didn't say what it was or who published it or anything, but it made me you know think you know, so I wrote to her care of Writers something and erm asked her what's the name of it I would like to read it because I had also written something about the er American Indians and erm er who's the publisher or what's it called, I'd like to read it. +I mentioned just about, and I got this this erm letter from her. +Oh, good. +It's erm letter of passed on to me by . +I am pleased you're enjoying my series of articles on writing a novel, hope you gained something from the rest there should be seven in all. +My interest in North Plains people in 1750 to 1850 which is about the same period for the you know cowboys goes back many years to my pre- writing days. +The novel mentioned in the second article is a Winter Man Mills and Boon masquerade +Really? +Mm +Oh well you know where to try then. +Well I've ordered it at the library because they didn't have, they used to, but it's gone. +Erm and as you will probably be able to deduce from the publisher, is a an historical romance. +It was published in eighty six eighty seven, although it's no longer available in shops, it can still be obtained through the library service if you care to request it, which I have . +I'm afraid I haven't a spare copy to forward to you even on a loan basis, one never allows for the contingencies which arise. +. Regarding your own story you state that this is a fantasy, but you don't give details market juvenile, adult,fantasy, supernatural, horror. +As a publish writer yourself I told her I've been published articles you will understand the need for market targeting and as you mention at twenty thousand words is not full-length, though this could be if was aimed at children. +If it is your first work of fiction of any great length, I think you are doing the right thing putting it forward for appraisal by the Eastern Arts Board, you are lucky in your part of the country to have this . +comments you could consider entering it or part of it in one of the many fiction competitions or submitting it in total to a which takes fiction. +If it is your first work of fiction, you should also look at it as part of your groundwork which although it may never see the light of publication, is of great benefit to you as a writer. +A brickie does not college N B Qs he needs to build his first house and first novel and immediately becoming an international best seller. +Okay occasionally it happens, but I for one am a and I have the unpublishable manuscript in a drawer to prove it. +I wish you well with your writing, remember talent is very useful and perseverance is a necessity. +That's very good. +Mm. +Isn't it? +Yeah, yeah. +That's very nice of her to write that. +I think erm what she's really saying to you is that writing's not an art, writing is a science, bloody hard work. +Yes. +You know getting on with it. +Yes. +See I didn't write asking sort of advice telling her +No, that's very nice of her No, that's very good. +So er +That's very nice of her to write +Yes. +And is there anywhere now. +Oh yeah, I see it yeah. +Well when you said something like that, it's not just one person who's gonna have a look is there? +Is it? +So I mean you have to send one copy, unless they take the bother of the copy they have received may gone to somebody else. +No. +Yes. +I mean what really your hope in looking after that is is they will come up with some idea of publishing. +Well if it's publishable, they +Oh that was she was supposed to come today, but she phoned up last week erm she is gonna come but I don't think that a date has been arranged yet. +These are some of the extras standing around on Middlemarch. +Oh. +It was on wasn't it? +Yes. +Yeah, it was repeated or something. +Oh, it's brilliant you know I mean er, I've I've telling him what I've doing this week. +Yeah. +I've erm +nice photographs +They are letter and I've read +I look at the first enjoyed it +I mean what the strange thing is that I was reading about +The writers +is that Middlemarch at the beginning, she did it in class +Well a word processor is much much better to use because it's so easy to you've gotta change everything that follows, whereas you know, with a with a word processor you can add paragraphs about words in change words. +A word processor is so much more power than a typewriter you wouldn't believe it. +physiotherapy sort of exercises and that. +Yeah, you've got to go what time? +Three thirty. +Okay, well do you mind if we take Kath +No not at all. +You lost them? +You can borrow mine. +Try mine +no it's all right +You put them in you +Right. +Right now Kath, you can start us off. +You wanna Okay Janet You're on. +Am I? +with the glasses +It's not in there. +Help. +Nobody's +Did you drop them on the floor? +Put them in your pocket? +You read that last piece without glasses thinking about it. +No no, you did have them on, no you did have them. +Yeah you did have them. +There's a pair on there. +They're mine. +leave the room. +Can we erm can we let Ann have a go then. +The ashtray +yes +Because the recorder's on. +Well I don't know whether it's good enough for a recorder, but erm I I the ends a little bit because I was rushed to get her so +Is this your er chapter of your story? +No, it's a short story really. +Oh, fine, fine, fine, good +but it's it's not brilliant, I mean Art to regain his breath as he stepped through +hang on a second what's the title? +I'm sorry I didn't actually give it one. +Now Ann I keep telling you. +Oh yes I know, I'm sorry. +Well shall I call it. +A short story. +Works. +Spring and Autumn or something like that Art to regain his breath as he stepped through the swing doors into the ordered gloom. +Shutting his eyes, he stopped and was there the one he always remembered from his childhood polish, dust, though not so much now as the smell of books. +He paused at the counter struggling with the straps of his shopping bag as he laid his self-regulated three weekly books on the counter. +She was new medium height, dark with a shiny fringe and big brown eyes. +He caught his breath. +Mary, no it couldn't be. +Good Morning. +She looked straight into his faded blue eyes as he slid his books towards her. +The smile was exactly the same, but the voice was different, it had a soft fur, Devonshire was it? +He couldn't be sure. +Thank you he said absent-mindedly and went through to the Natural History. +From here he could get a good view of the counter desk. +Yes, she looked almost exactly the same, unbelievable. +He picked up a huge book h he picked up a large book with a huge green dinosaur on the front. +Strange he thought, there seems to be a current fad around about dinosaurs, there was one on top of a bottle of bath oil one of his grandsons had given to him for Christmas and another was perched on the handle of a nail brush in the bathroom. +Toby had a pencil with a blue one on the end it its scaly tail curled around the pencil and the head was spiked down the neck could be used as a rubber. +Odd looking things he said himself quietly. +It all happened years ago, can't understand why they brought them up again now. +Mrs Blick moving carefully around Natural History in search of something to help an earnest nine year-old with his holidays. +He's on a holiday project her talking to himself. +She smiled, over here is her remarks and hoping all was well. +Morning Mrs Dear how are you? +Fine Mrs. Blick, and yourself? +Art nodded politely. +He liked Mrs. Blick one of the old school, always addressed by name, a caring sort Good Morning Mrs B. Over the years their relationship has developed so that Art now called her Mrs B. He had once served at a library committee but that was when her husband was alive many years ago. +Didn't know you were interested in dinosaurs she smiled gently teasing him. +Their seem to be a lot around at the moment. +Really, she laughed. +Well you know what I mean knew very well and nodded. +Did you enjoy your holiday with the family she asked gently, knowing that Art lived alone now and welcomed the invitations from his eldest son Toby and his wife Lynn. +Yes thank you, it's great fun there and the two rascals have got these things everywhere he indicated the dust jacket where a green scaly monster grinned devouringly at both of them. +It's pointed teeth remind him of some giant cheese grater with a mind of it's own, face smiling ready to strike. +They were on the mantelpiece in the garden even in the bathroom. +It was yo-yo's in my time yo-yo's and parasols. +I always think a woman looks pretty good under a parasol, even better under a pretty hat, his eyes looked distant. +Daphne laughed, I'll see you in a moment she said kindly. +Art raised his eyes to the receiving desk, she was standing she was standing talking to a young man. +My how like is Mary she looked so very pretty. +The dinosaurs were spying as he replaced the book. +He hadn't wanted to learn more about them, not really, ugly things after all and it was a long time ago. +He moved into Fiction, checking his favourite thriller author. +He always put a very tiny pencil mark on the end papers at the back of every book he read, his very own secret sign. +He knew he ought not to mark the books really, but it was only a tiny mark in pencil and no-one could accuse him of defacing library property, not really, it wouldn't do for an ex-library committee member to be caught defacing library property now would it. +Art has served his country town well this country town well, he lived he all his life all in a small cottage down by the river. +He'd won a bursary to a local grammar school when he was eleven and then gone on to an apprenticeship with an engineering firm which employed a quarter of the town's local inhabitants. +That has sadly gone now, another victim of the recession. +Art had always tried to give back what he had gained in life, he felt grateful for what he felt he had to be given, some said he'd achieved a great deal, but in his heart he felt fate had dealt him with him gently and you have to make the most of the lo of the card life deals you. +He as content and his worry was his younger son, if only he would settle down like Toby and Lynn, find a nice girl, make a home. +Art checked his books, there were a lot of little marks on the end papers, other readers marking their patch no doubt, defiling narrative as dinosaurs have devoured other less fortunate in the past no doubt . +He thought of them, somehow communicating to ea to each of the boroughs through their own little secret signs and realising their flight of fancy. +He moved to the counter, you're new aren't you he said. +My son's looking for a wife. +He stopped, it wasn't his normal behaviour to speak to the staff in so familiar a way, after all he had his dignity. +The girl blushed slightly and then laughed, well we're a public library, not a marriage bureau. +He paused still looking at her. +How like Mary she was, incredible. +Out through the swing doors he made to the Rendezvous Coffee House. +Daphne was already there at her regular table. +I like the new girl he observed conversationally. +Daphne studied the menu a new one, a friendly dinosaur snaked down the side holding the printed menu between its paws. +Damn things keep cropping up everywhere Art observed conversationally. +She's right nice, just qualified now to college, from Taunton you know, Daphne says steering the conversation in the way she wanted it to go. +It's only here temporarily she's only here temporarily she added. +Why has she come here for goodness sake Ar Art barked mentally choosing mushed up mushroom omelette and a roll of butter. +What are you having. +Grill grilled plaice Daphne said and coffee. +The waitress appeared for their order, jacket sir she enquired as Art placed the order for both of them. +Jacket potatoes, yes please Art replied. +How's Steve, Daphne well knew the heartache Art's younger son caused him. +As well as I'll ever know he replied gruffly. +I'm retiring in a few months Daphne said quietly. +Retiring, shouldn't have thought you were old enough, Art was brought up with a jolt. +What will you do? +I've decided to move. +Really? +Art was surprised. +Where are you going? +Taunton. +Art could not speak, he had become so used to meeting Daphne for lunch once a week, it was part of his life, he felt shocked, strange, bereft. +Taunton was where Steven lived, where the lovely young girl in library He looked across at Daphne, she was looking at him searchingly her eyes questioning. +I'll be sixty five in two months time Art, it's time for a move, they'll be a lot of time on my hands. +Sixty five burst out Art, I didn't think you were anything near that anywhere near that age. +Well I am. +Daphne's look was indecipherable. +But that's not so far off as I am, I thought you were much younger than I. +Blushed and took her hand she did not take it away. +It puts a different light on things. +Does it Art? +Toby and Lynn live in Taunton Art observed and Steven's nearby Daphne added. +Suddenly the future looked very bright indeed. +There there you go announced the waitress setting two hot plates before them. +Art winced at the vocabulary, it was a current phrase he most detested. +Daphne chuckled as he gripped his hands. +There you go she said. +What time did you ring me? +Well yes I know I tried to pick her up +Well yes. +This one describes at the end er you stumbled over yourself, she did not take er . +her hand away you know, if you imagine she if you make it she didn't take her hand away +Oh yes, yes. +it'll be easier to say. +Okay, fine. +But otherwise +Yes. +it was only that you stumbled over it. +Right. +Very good. +It was excellent. +Oh, I always wonder about that, I never know whether it's correct I mean it certainly sounds better as you said, she didn't take her hand away, but I always find that when I'm writing something down, I'm torn, if it's dialogue I want to say they didn't, couldn't and all things come in. +When you're writing it it you know +Narrative. +Narrative, I always wonder whether you should not or +Well it depends on the context of the piece I think, I mean if you're dealing with fudd fuddy duddy old people you know who speak you know very precisely, then obviously you'd keep it the one. +If you're talking about youngsters and in a modern i in then in fact abbreviations like that are quite commonly used now in narrative and dialogue and of course in dialogue I mean +Well in dialogue it's fine, you can use almost any +sort of a figure of speech, but with narrative it's it was always understood that the words would be spelled out more +words would be spelled out more yes. +and if you used abbreviation like he'd H E apostrophe D that was in that was allowable in the thought process. +Yes +As though you know erm after all head known all about it this is the to himself and by doing that then abbreviated then, that's when the reader was supposed to take it as a thought process rather than a +Yeah. +Er it was I the only thing that that brought it to mind was Ann herself stumbled over it as she said it you know playwright +Well I wonder if it's +I wonder if it's one of those things that I mean she's reading the story aloud, I wonder if you were reading that story as as well +Yeah as well +You read it very quickly and and it would almost he had it would be he'd or whatever it is that the word was you know that y you +Yes, that doesn't flow does it. +Yeah. +Mm. +Sorry I've got to go. +Oh. +Shame +Are you going +medical +Are you going now? +Yeah. +I mean you'll come back +What is this thing +March I can't remember the exact date erm +Can you get me the date round then? +Yeah I will do. +All . +No, no. +Er see you all. +Okay, bye. +Bye. +Bye-bye. +Cheerio. +Bye. +Bye Kath. +How long did that take you Ann? +Ten minutes. +was it? +I find that absolutely because you know my stories I can only write so much and then I stop and think about then and then I write some more. +It's so difficult to add up the the hours, but I mean it's a number of days of course it's not working solidly you know, maybe only for an up an hour or an hour. +Well once I've got you know once I've got the shape of the story in my mind I can it down in an hour or so every time you know it's in long hand, then it takes me hours to type it but er you know the actual once I've got the idea I I find it necessary to get it all down you know in long hand as quickly as possible. +Right the other thing Ann you you really must get given you pieces of titles you know because that should steer you into it you know the title should be be the first peg you hang your hat on, that's the first thing. +I suppose I could it Spring and to Taunton rather than Spring and Autumn +Yes or something like that yeah +Right, Cybil your go. +Janet's found her glasses. +Oh, sorry, Janet +Okay Janet. +Pass me over. +Our great minds thought alike today. +What's that? +Well there's this David Thomas Charitable Trust in Writers News for a story of s between sixteen and eighteen hundred words with the theme Pride goes before a Fall. +Oh yeah? +So I whipped out something I've done eleven hundred words, re-wrote it and it's now seventeen hundred words about the house. +Yeah? +The inanimate objects have been breathed the life into by It's called For Sale. +Elegant and impressive detached residence with large well-stocked garden running down to the river, said the card in the window of the village's estate agent. +The house was indeed elegant and certainly impressive, but had an air of haughty arrogance. +The passers by stopped to admire her from the large wrought iron gates at the bottom of the drive. +She fluttered the strut all and above the windows like eyelashes and all three storeys brick style glowed with pride. +The house had been empty for some time now and beginning to feel lonely. +Prospective buyers had been shown around, but the house had quickly made up her mind that they were not suitable for such as she. +She would know at once when the right people entered the from the moment she looked upon them at the top of the wide staircase. +She longed for the time I've just got two in my gardeners. +So far though the viewers had not been at all suitable. +Some had children that are at an age where there might be a tendency towards vandalism, one of whom had been speedily dealt with by her when he attempted to slide down the oak bannister, kicking her as he went down. +He was despatched off the end at great speed and the viewing had to end there and then. +A fast exit to the hospital for that lot. +She would have no with noevo riche either. +not +noevo it's nouveau +Nouveau yeah +Nouveau. +I spelt it wrong that's why I spelt it Spanish Nouveau riche either. +No here. +They would probably knock her insides about to fit in a jacuzzi or the like, not to mention all-night parties and vulgar guests filling every room. +No peace and quiet, what a thought. +But then she would expl exude an atmosphere, the house could breath evil through her walls if she concentrated hard enough and the smiles would be wiped off the faces of those to whom money was no object. +When one of these upstarts had the effrontery to kick her wood panelled walls in the study I put library in the to see if they were sound, she'd breath such venom through the wall, that his wife shuddered and pulled her fur coat tightly around her, hurrying out of the room saying I wouldn't sleep under this roof for a million. +Yes, she would know when to use her charm and warmth, she would know how to use her will-power right vibes when they appear. +In the meantime she would continue to give off the appropriate vibes to the unworthy. +One more summer term to winter still the house had not looked upon anyone she saw as suitable enough to take on a satisfactory residence within her proud walls, if only she was. +Virginia had crept up to her several times trying to be friendly, but each time the house repelled her advances, don't you dare to come near me with those nasty creepy little fingers she smiled, preventing the new young tendrils finding a hold on her walls. +Poor Virginia finally collapsed upon herself and quietly died. +The flowers of the garden mourned for Virginia Creeper, with nobody to restrain them the flowers had left their beds and were running riot. +You've killed her they cried, how could you. +How could people admire my form and grace, my naked splendour with that weed clinging and climbing all over me. +Yuck, she doesn't even make flowers and even if she did, she should keep her place in the garden with you lot . +The flowers were hurt by these words. +What you be without us, they chorused. +The house glared down on on them from her windows, I don't need you. +Just you wait until somebody falls in love with me and comes to live here, then it will be off with your heads, your stupid nodding heads she snapped. +As winter frost covered the sleeping flowers, the cold silent house was battered by wind and damp by driving rain. +Soon the rain began to seep into a hole in the roof where the wind had obligingly removed a couple of slates. +She was now damp and depressed, longing for spring to arrive and have someone to talk to again. +A wandering tramp climbed into an unlocked ground floor window for a nights sleep out of the icy wind. +But the house creaked her floor boards and rattled her windows, moaning with the wind till he picked up his bum and fled into the night shaking with fear as he imagined ghosts. +One has one's pride said the house, let him sleep somewhere less grand, he's only a tramp. +Eventually the house sensed a excitement of spring in the air, the earth was coming alive again with awakening green shoots peeping through, searching for the warm rays of sunshine. +She felt her heart quicken as a car came up the drive and stopped in front of her. +This looks promising, a sleek chauffeur driven car. +She perked up now. +The men that stepped out of the car looked suitable enough at first glance. +They stood looking up at her. +At last she sighed happily at such a class. +She knew she wasn't looking her best at the moment, but they looked the type to know quality when they saw it she thought, as she fluttered he awnings at them, colourless now, tattered and torn by the wind. +The men turned and entered her paint-peeled front door. +She was bursting with pride and excitement warm and friendly atmosphere as the men wandered from room to room, listening the agent stressing the possibilities of the property. +Where are you all off too? +We're all running down to the river like you said, they may not find us down there. +Tell the others when they awake and they can follow us. +Goodbye house. +Seeing there was an empty space where the flowers had been Oh dear me, who can I talk to now, I've been abandoned, left in the lurch, not even a bird to talk to or call my friend. +Birds have long since given up trying to nest in her eaves. +The space where the flowers had been soon became a thriving mass of weeds. +Ivy was the first to reach her walls, unlike little Virginia she wasn't having any nonsense from the proud house. +Ivy crept slowly up the walls before the house had even noticed she was there. +The nettles were bolder, they bravely marched right up to her very door bringing their friends the docks with them. +Soon the dandelions came, all they cared about was blooming, getting their white clocks and blowing their babies far away. +They ignored the threats of the house and from everything else, it was just a place to grow. +Just you wait and see what's going to happen to you said the bewildered house, weed killer for the lot of you that's what. +My people will soon be moving in here. +After a few months of wrestling unsuccessfully with the strong weeds, the house was delighted to see activity in the grounds. +Men and machinery arrived with a great deal of noise and bustle. +They've started to restore my beauty at last she signed with relief. +Well dressed men were once again looking up at her, there was also some scruffy ones she noticed, but decided to ignore them. +She drew herself up and began fluttering her ragged eyelashes, like an old actress living in her past glory. +So intent was she on making a good impression, she failed to see a crane coming towards her. +A great shudder went through the old house, as with a sickening crunch the weight hit her front wall. +With a gasp of pain and surprise she doubled up. +The elegant impressive residence fought to retain her dignity and slowly collapsed upon herself. +There was a groan, a sign and then silence. +The old houses give you the creeps don't they Bill? +Yeah, did you hear that noise hey? +Makes you feel like a murderer sometimes this job don't it? +Yeah, gives you the willies. +Come on then, let's get the rest of it down before we start going daft. +Before they could start again there was a sound of breaking glass. +One of the young labourers had thrown a brick through a window, the part of the house still standing. +Oih you can pack that lark in, Bill was furious. +The young lad looked up at them and laughed, what's up with you it's gotta come down innit? +Yeah, but give the old girl a bit of respect son. +The boy tipped back his yellow helmet and scratched his head. +You've been in this job too long mate, you're going senile. +Bill laughed, come on Harry let's get this lot down. +They hesitated, looked at each other a bit sheepishly and Bill songed away Just a Little Less Harder Than Before. +You had about half a dozen endings there. +Did you notice that, you could of you could have ended about you know the last the last six sentences, you could have ended +I know I could of there wasn't enough words. +N, it's very good +Yeah, heard it before you know. +Very good, you've heard that it was eleven hundred words, I spoke six hundred +Ah. +That's very good. +So I've added it in the middle, rather than at the end. +Yeah, I say, it doesn't, doesn't stick at you, where you or anything. +No. +No. +or where you've put them in, it's flowed still. +Yeah, I just pu put in the house prospective buyers rather than just saying +What are you doing with it there's a competition for what, for a monologue? +No, no it's a it's for erm on er er on the theme of Pride +Of Pride before a Fall +Pride before a Fall . +Oh, yes. +Oh, it's really good, yeah it's really good, yeah. +So I've left that out. +That's excellent yeah, oh yeah. +Then I thought oh,that as it is and was eleven hundred words like with no +No, you should in a chance with that, that's really good I thought. +Most of it I bunged it back together +last page Janet +Then I re-thought about it and thought oh, I might as well have a go. +I think it's very original +Yeah really worth the try that, it's really good. +Well it's five hundred pounds, so it's worth a try . +Oh well. +Right. +if anyone's interested there's another coming out on marriage, so if you want to write a poem, send it off. +No, erm poetry now, bringing out another book so +Oh I see +got the other one on marriage. +Oh I see, on marriage. +It's on marriage now, but I've only got the one application form. +You can or you may even be able to ring them up and say . +That came with my magazine. +Right. +I've got it. +Yes. +I'm just going to read one that's already been published and it doesn't matter if I read it again. +Bag Lady I don't mind . +The Bag Lady, there's a strange cardboard city the length of the Strand, with people extending or begging hand. +For a cup full of tea or a small can of coke, picking up dog ends to get a cheap smoke. +The businessmen rushing for trains everyday would throw down some coins where these poor wretches lay. +The hand-outs were vital to get them a bite, to help them survive in their pitiful plight. +Betsy was lucky she had many friends who relished her company by Old Father Thames, where they all congregated when evening came round, cuddling in clusters all over the ground. +Several milk crates of the plastic design will be turned upside down facing a line. +For they soon simulated a luxury bed where Betsy could happily place her forehead. +Sometimes old Betsy would wander the parks, as hungry for bread as the pigeons and larks, she's scavenge through each of the large litter bins, or anything left in packets or tins. +Wherever she went she carried her bag with her personal belongings down to every last rag. +A bit of a burden, but she treasured it all, he wealthy possessions screwed up in a ball. +In the summer the scene as the sun slowly sank, gave reflections in pink from the long river bank. +And the drop-outs enjoying the lovely warm season, when asked why they stay there said this was the reason. +But winter was hell with the temperature low and strong winds and rain and occasionally snow. +They try to keep warm these tramps and old hags, with the lucky ones owning their own sleeping bags. +One morning a policeman while out on his beat, examined some rubbish from which poked two feet. +The body inside it was frozen he saw, poor Betsy would wander the city no more. +That was in the Poetry published. +Yes. +That's my lot. +Are you sending this again to the +No, it's already published, but if it's gonna be +Sign away your copyright, I don't care, cos I've already had it published. +Dos it erm did you is that in our anthology as well? +No, that is in just the +Yes +Yes. +Yes. +That was all. +Don't look at me. +Oh! +I haven't done it, well I haven't done any, I have done some, +Oh. +Because +Do you con will you continue that story that I listened to a week before cos I wasn't here last week +Yes,I I haven't I I did half er sort of half finished it. +I really must finish the rest of it which I haven't done at the moment, because I've been doing other things. +Right. +We're gonna get on with the +Yeah, come on who's next, +Sorry, no I was miles away, you've you've not you've not done any more? +I haven't brought it with me. +Oh, well. +plenty of writing that, how many pages is that? four four thousand +Er two hundred. +Two hundred. +Nine hundred and sixty seven words that takes about five or six minutes to read it if I can read it in this light. +Hang on let me join +Yes +How's that, that better? +That's all right. +Call this er a Waste of Life. +Oh that's me. +The court room at the Old Bailey was hushed dock went in for the jury to return for their verdict. +They had been out all morning considering the case. +A statement charged with murder the trial having lasted five days. +Waiting seemed endless, he was sure that a guilty verdict would be returned. +Although the evidence was purely circumstantial, he knew that he had committed this the gravest of crimes. +His past life went prosecution of the defence . +He had been in trouble for the most part of his life, the eldest of the poor working class family of seven children, he had always been the black sheep. +Until he was seven his life at home though poverty stricken had not been too bad. +However, at the numbers of the family increased he was more than often ignored. +John started getting into trouble at the age of nine stealing from shops. +Visits to school were few and far between and it was not long before his parents washed their hands of him. +Soon he landed in the juvenile court and was placed into care + +Right Mr erm Have you always lived in Nottingham? +Well I live in in live in Nottinghamshire, born and bred at a place called which is it's about er twenty four miles North of Nottingham. +A small mining town. +Brought up well as I was actually born in the village and that's where I've come home to roost when I left the army. +So you when did you join the army? +Nineteen er s nineteen seventy two. +I came out in nineteen eighty four. +And th did you join Group Four then? +Yes yes I was I had a month's terminal leave er I'd er I'd heard that there was a job going, er phoned them up on the on the Monday, had an interview Tuesday, started the Friday. +So were you a sergeant when you started? +Yeah. +Yeah everybody starts off as a sergeant. +And er you do you do probation for three months in in which time you're vetted thoroughly. +And if your if your vetting doesn't come up to scratch, then you can be terminated, it's in your contract. +And er I've been with them ever since, just come up to two year period. +I've enjoyed it quite a lot. +Seen a a lot of other things I wouldn't have seen if I'd have been working down a pit or behind a shop counter or something. +Met a lot of er different people.. +Is that the sort of thing most people ? +Well at the moment with the the mining industry as it is, unless you've got had you've got or had a relative working at the pit, the local, you haven't got the s chance of in. +When I left school er if you went to the pit, it was the last of the last jobs. +But now to get into the pit it's one of the jobs to go to. +I would say ninety five percent of people in the village are employed at the local colliery. +Mm. +Erm er . +Erm what was actually you brief when you move onto the flats. +Well our main brief was that we was to try and minimize and control the vandalism, or any property belonging to the county council. +Er to make sure none of the empty flats was broke into, and items removed such as copper tanks, electrical fittings. +To reassure the remaining tenants who were left behind, or moving out er Mm. +Tt. +What's the word? +Well try and look after flats for the council. +As . +Erm make sure there was no vandalism done. +But we found out that most of the vandalism was done in the daytime when we were away. +And er reassure reassure the tenants that that that are left behind. +So when did you actually move on to the flats? +We started the contract in April of last year. +I think it's the around about the first or the second of April. +Er so that's over a year now. +About what? +Fourteen month fifteen month? +Mm. +So what's you what are what are your actual powers? +Well we've got no s we've got no more powers than what a a normal person civilian has got. +Er our main thing is, if we see something happ happening which we justifies erm the police being called, then we will call the police. +But if we see an office that's being committed by y somebody breaking into an empty flat, or we actually see somebody breaking into a occupied flat, then as a as a citizen, you can enforce a citizen's arrest. +. We've never arrested anybody yet, I think erm the uniform does the job. +And it deters more people than u use actually having to er resort to different means. +But erm the police react very quickly. +If we say, There's somebody suspicious knocking about the flats, or, There's a person on such a walk doing something we think's a little bit er mysterious, then they'll sen they'll send somebody round as quickly as they can. +So you've got quite a good relationship +Oh we've got a fantastic relationship with the police. +Because also we can act as eyes for them as well. +Er I don't know but I would i I would reckon the crime rate since we've been on the flats, even though the the flats are emptying out,h h has dropped er dramatically. +Erm as you know yourself you walk round the flats now, it's dead. +There's hardly anybody about but if you was here a year ago, this was a little island on it's own little concrete island on it's own. +And there was activity twenty four hours a day. +You could go out to the walkways, you could talk to somebody twenty four hours a day. +If you was here. +So you think the community's certainly gone down since you ? +In number-wise? +Well in the way people act. +Well you i it took a a while for us to be accepted about six month I would say six month . +Because when they first saw us we was eve everything from the the D H S, to the police, to the probation office. +Anything that could could check up on people and ru that's what we was called. +Gradually the people realized that we was here to look after the flats. +And we weren't gonna you know, bust the door down at six o'clock in the morning and do a drugs raid. +Or other illicit things that's going on. +And they accept us for what we are and we've got a good erm relationship with the the people w who are left in er the flat complex. +Mhm. +Er you said about breaking into them and things like that, erm er a lot of tenants we've spoken to er seem to be er they seem to thing there's a lot of flats. +Er do you do you get a lot of breaking into flats? +when we come we come on duty. +Approximately we a we start on at six o'clock. +By which time the tenants have come home from work or they've been out for a few hours, say they've been out from twelve till six. +And they come home, they find that the the flat's been broke into, and that's the first thing we know about it. +Er we've had one or one or two erm break-ins while during the night. +But on such a large complex like this, we can't be everywhere at the same time. +And er the the problem is we get round who who do you know who lives in what flat. +Erm if we see you know, if we see somebody walking down a walkway, and he's got a stereo in his arm, arms should I say, and he puts it into a car then obviously it a it arouses our suspicion, we'll take a quick note of the car's registration number, and we'll pass the relevant information through to Police Station. +It's up you know and they'll act on that. +Erm we had one morning, one of our sergeants saw what he thought was a break-in. +Was in in the . +We got on on to the phone to Road Police Station, and within possibly two, three minutes, there was four, five police officers round there. +And it turned out chap had been locked out and he forced one of his windows himself to get in. +But they they surrounded the flat cos they thought that it was a bur a burglary was in process. +So er we achieved something there, even if it you know it it put the frighteners up the chap, police looking out the windows and you know, saw our reaction when the police turn up, it makes them think again. +Erm what actually happens if someone comes up to you in the night and says, My house has been burgled. +What do you do? +Well first thing we do is we'll if I've got two two sergeants at the flats, I tell the occupant to go back to the flat, and wait for the two s two sergeants turning up. +They'll go back to the The two sergeants'll turn up. +They'll go in with the with the occupant, at the same time we'll inform Road Police Station. +And then erm it's up to Road Police Station to deal with it. +If we find a flat that's been broke into. +And it's an occupied flat, then we will not enter it or we will not enter it until we've had erm till Road Police Station's been informed, and then we'll work on their advice. +And then they'll say, Right we'll have a bobby in there in ten minutes, or, We can't get anybody there till such and such, so what we will do is we will secure a door, until somebody can come and have a look at it. +Erm if a window's been smashed, then we'll we'll get the window boarded up to secure the flat the best possible way. +You do all that yourself do you? +No we we we've got er a contact phone number and er a contractor comes in and boards it up. +Or secures the door. +If we can't put a clamp on it, then we we can't do a clamp. +Say the doorframe's been busted, then er we've got authority to contact the board the people who board it up. +And then they'll they'll get the flat secure. +Now in what what other things go on in the flats that you get involved with? +Er what other things go on in the flats? +Fires. +Erm unknown people have got their little things about setting chutes on fire, the rubbish chutes. +What they normally do is they get some paper, they light it, they'll drop it, and it falls straight into the rubbish chute underneath. +appropriate action. +Er nine out of ten you can see it. +Cos there's smoke. +Well I mean first of all you'll smell it. +you find out where it is, and you inform base which is here, that there's a fire, say in one of the chutes,and er the fire brigade will be informed. +And the fire brigade'll turn up and deal with it. +And we put in a report to the county council in the morning saying there was a fire. +Erm we've had a couple of flat fires. +There again er there was smoke seen coming out of a bedroom, so we first of all informed base again, that there's a fire, in a flat, secondly we did was break down the door. +Cos we took it that there was somebody probably take it that there's somebody inside the flat. +Until either the the emergency services turn up and say there's nobody in the flat. +Or that the occupant turns up himself and says there's nobody in the flat. +Er and this this case the there was a fire in a flat, the chap had gone out to work, we didn't know he'd gone out to work, so we broke First of all we informed the fire brigade was on the way, we broke down the door, quick look in the flat, best possible way we could look, and the fire brigade turned up and dealt with the flat. +We secured the door. +. Erm we've had one attempted well one arson attack in the the period which we've been on the flats. +Er disagreement between er two partners er one partner set fire to another partner's flat, by smashing a window,setting alight the curtains. +We were I was I was patrolling at the time, with me partner. +We heard the glass being broken. +So we we moved towards the sound of the glass, and there's there's two people in the the garden, so we went down to have a look at them. +As we as I approached them, I saw flames coming from the the curtains. +And the two people in the garden started to walk away. +So rather than cause er an incident there and then, I informed my partner to follow them back to wherever they went, which time I got on the radio back to control,that we required the police and the fire brigade. +Er but he followed them all the way back to a flat on th on the on the complex. +The police came and dealt with them and the arrest was made. +So therefore, in my mind, we saved probably forty, fifty family lives that night. +And er it was a good night's work. +The fire brigade eventually turned up, because the police had cancelled they tu turned them ou turned them out again. +And and things settled nice and quietly and all the blue lights come flying down here, and so we had to they was about to chop down this blokes door and we said, Whoa whoa whoa. +Said, The fire's out mate. +And we showed them where the fire was, they checked that out. +Because er under no c circumstances if we have a fire, do we say the f we put the fire out out ourselves. +Even if we've had a fire and if it's burnt itself out then we will we will call the fire service to make sure it is out. +And they're the specialists we're not. +Erm do you have much trouble with erm squatters and vagrants and . +When we first moved in, April last year, it was a bit bit cold. +Problem with the stairwells is that they're heated. +The heating pipes coming through for the the central heating and the hot water. +We had one or two, one or two vagrants knocking about, and we just asked them to move on, and they moved on. +We've had one or two juveniles that's run away from home sleeping in the in the outhouses. +There again, rather than wake them up, and the they do a runner, we get on to the phone, tell the police that there's a a juvenile or what looks like to be a juvenile, sleeping in in part of the flats but where it's a a stairwell, an ou outhouse, erm even under the stairs, then they'll come along and check it out. +Nine out of ten it's a runaway. +And they'll just, they'll eit you know, just hand it over to the police and that's as far as we'll go. +Mm. +Erm erm when you're patrolling the flats erm have you ever come erm into any sort of physical danger yourself? +You and your your patrol? +No but erm I've had one or two people swear up to us. +Er I had or trying to provoke us, and erm what our lads have been informed is rather than take a situation on like that, it's better just to turn around and walk away. +If they call you names or they spit at you, or or whatever, it's better to walk away and live another day than to get your head kicked in and end up in hospital. +Erm y you get a lot of well we did get a lot of verbal abuse from the young the youngsters. +But there again you you just let it go in one ear and out the other ear. +That's why you've got to have somebody who's a mature natured person, for this for this k kind of job. +You know probably if you got a younger person, he probably would have been after him, square up to him, and erm . +Cos if you ever squared up to one of these or anybody in the flats, people'd just come out of the out of the woodwork. +And as far as as er physical threats, what, somebody actually being hit? +No. +I mean you read you read a lot in the press erm about people being mugged on the flats and er break-ins and all this sort of thing. +Are they actually as bad as the press makes out, the flats? +Well before we came on the flats I would imagine they was. +But now we're on the flats, no. +There again, how long does it take to mug a person? +Ten, fifteen seconds. +And you can do a lot in fifteen seconds, you could murder somebody in fifteen seconds. +Erm nobody's gonna mug a person if they see us coming, or if they see a bobby coming. +Nine out of ten they'll wait until we've gone passed, or even the police have gone passed, before they'll commit an offence. +But since we've been on the flats, there's probably been half a dozen muggings. +Some in the daytimes, some at night. +But there again, it's people walking through the flats, who don't live on the flats, that get mugged. +Erm or people attending the blues, walking from one end to the other. +You know people who's coming in from o the outside to come on to the flats, they're the people at risk. +Erm but er we've had one or two people come to us, and report that they've been mugged, there again we get straight on the phone to the police. +And let them them deal with it. +We we'll do the reporting and that's that's as far as we'll go. +But if we there again if we see somebody that's being mugged, and we think that we can assist, or we can deal with it, then we will, you have to take every situation as it comes. +Y erm it's like you don't go running up to something if you're gonna come worse off. +If there's half a dozen of them and there's two of you, and there's one person being mugged, erm then it's better to to stand on and watch, and report b back to the base here, who can inform the police, who can get the necessary assistance out to deal with it. +And er that's what we do. +Erm how do you think the people in the flats erm look at er you patrolling them? +Well I think they're helping us erm possibly if this system had been started a few years ago, then possibly flats complex, wouldn't have got the bad reputation it has today. +Because I go home and I people say, Oh where are you working? +I will say, Oh I'm doing a job at flats. +And, Oh! flats like then. +as if you walk round with a shotgun armoured tank. +And I say, No it's a quite pleasant place to work. +And they say, Ah come off it, we've heard about it, we've read it in the papers. +one small aspect in the paper of , can into a page a full page. +But whereas say something that happens say Well say take for example where I live in . +Er somebody being attacked there might make a paragraph. +It's it's it's er quietened down, and people do accept us. +And people have stopped us and have said, If this i if you'd have been on on the flats, say six, ten years ago, erm it wouldn't have got the reputation it has now. +Because the senior members on the flats that have been living here since it was put up, when they came to live on complex, they reckoned it was the place to come and live. +And they was proud to come and live in it. +But er things have deteriorated. +Till we've got the situation we've got now. +Do you erm have you got to know people a bit on the flats? +We we we know one or two people erm more or less by face, not by name. +Er there was quite a few people moved out now. +There was a a an old lady down we talked to, she's out most nights. +There's one or two people knocking around that'll talk to you. +Erm we more or less know the young the young thug element as such. +Er and they seem to stay well clear of us when they see us walking round. +Yes we know quite a few. +In those areas. +you said you got quite a good rapport. +Well I think we have now. +Yes. +Er without having a good relationship with the people in the flats, er if I mean some people if they say see something going off, they'll turn their you know, turn their back and they don't want to know. +There again, on the other hand, if some one or two other people see something going off, they'll come and tell us. +As I've said before, we can't be all over the flats at the same time. +So we rely on, to a certain degree, on a bit of help from the tenants. +Now, how do you patrol the flats? +Erm do you go out in teams? +Well at the moment we've just started a new patrol programme and er we two two sergeants wal patrolling the the walkways. +And I had one sergeant downstairs patrolling the er street level. +Er The sergeant downstairs, if he sees any trouble or he finds something that's going off or bumps into something, then he can radio back into base again. +And then we can take appropriate action from there. +Erm the two lads on the flats, there's two of them together, so that anything that they they meet or come up against, they can handle themselves. +But in our time, it's very quiet now so we've we've moved into a different routine again, where I have two two sergeants out at one time, changing over er frequently so they don't get bored. +Is it is there not that much to do now in the flats? +Well yeah there there's a there's a lot to do, erm with half the flats being empty and Or say two thirds of the flats being empty. +Erm you've got quite a few people walking through. +Erm these people are possibly the element we don't want on the flats. +Cos they're walking through the area and they'll if they've had a few pints , Let's go down Oh we'll walk through Flats and we'll smash one or two lights up, smash one or two windows. +Erm I wouldn't say it's it's gone quiet at night, we've got to be more aware now anyway. +Than what we had we was doing last year. +As I said last year, there were quite a few people out on the walkways, so it was very rarely you got anybody walking through. +Now two thirds of the residents have gone, there's a lot of walkways open, there's a lot of windows there to smash, there's a lot of you know,try setting fire setting fire. +So we've got to be more aware during the like what we call the silent hours. +Erm just really. +Erm d now the flats are quieter, do you find there are as many blues on the flats? +Well erm At the moment we've got one one blues on. +Erm and that is not half as what it was last year. +But then again, we can say that we've had a quiet week Saturday and Sunday, or from Friday till through till Monday morning, it can be packed out with people just visiting the blues. +Do they do they seem to create much trouble, these blues? +Yeah. +Er as I said before, if we get some verbal abuse from people going to the blues, then we know that it was outsiders coming in. +they just accept us for what we are, they know that we're not gonna upset their lifestyle, we're not gonna start raiding their place at six in the morning. +They accept us for what we are, and that's it. +Mm. +So you've got no powers to go sort of talk about their noise,? +No. +If somebody comes and reports to us that erm that the music's loud, all we'll do is refer them to Road Police Station. +And let them do . +Erm do you have erm much to do with the housing people? +That are on the flats. +Yeah we've got the daily You mean the council staff? +Yes. +Yeah we've got the daily contact each morning with one of the, one of the er council employees, they'll come up approximately between eight and nine, and we'll hand over any incidents reports that have been made during the night. +And we'll er inform them of erm the state of the flats during the night, whether it was quiet busy, erm anything we've seen knocking about, erm and things in general. +So does it work quite well for them? +Oh yes we've they are subscribing, and if we wasn't keeping a good erm a good liaison with them, then I don't think we'd be here now. +Erm wh wh what what's it like working on Flats, I mean, have you worked anywhere similar? +No I haven't worked anywhere similar, in in this employment. +Er but working on Flats,taken to the job. +Erm when I came on to the flats I came with an open mind and I was gonna you know take things as I as I met them. +Erm we treat everybody the same, we look after everybody as I say, the best we can. +Erm and it's just a normal job. +Yes t to a certain extent, I expect. +Erm there's nothing hard about it, there's nothing easy about it. +Erm the best thing about this job is, you don't know what's round the corner. +As I say one day it might be quiet, and the next day, something might happen. +Erm since we've we've worked the flats I think, the the lads who've worked up here have dealt with a a very broad erm a very broad aspect of incidence. +And th they will they will have dealt with more incidents up here than I would imagine any other erm place of employment that they'll go to. +And it probably beds them in slightly to go off to somewhere else. +Is there anything you haven't worked with on the flats yet? +Well we haven't had a murder, and we haven't ha a rape. +And er erm that's about it I think. +But er who knows we're probably here for another two years, we might find a dead body somewhere. +Erm it's a bit frightening when you if you find somebody dossing down somewhere. +You can see a body and like, Oh what's that? and then you you know, you're a little bit er relieved when it moves. +. Or it stands up or you know you you go and put it in the cupboard, and all of a sudden there's a there's a there's a face looking at you, you know. +Yeah, you're hoping Your heart er beats rising. +I think personally erm I mean yo would you like to live on the flats? +No there's no gardens. +Of such. +Erm the tenants are not allowed to keep animals. +But er as you know looking round the flats, they do. +Erm and I But there again, if it was a controlled access to the flats, and people wasn't allowed to wander through the flats. +Er probably yes. +Erm but then again, if anybody's got any kiddies, which I have, it's not it's not a Well I don't reckon it it is a place to bring children up in. +Erm if there was probably me and me wife on me own, and it was a co controlled access, and there weren't people walking through,probably come and live here. +What do you mean by controlled access? +Well er if take it as if threw a b a fence all the way round the the flats. +Well that this starts off by keeping the outsiders out. +They do most of the damage, knocking on doors, daub writing all over the place. +So what I mean by controlled access is nobody comes on i within to this flat complex, without er the se the security team knowing. +So say for example you was a tradesman. +And you was say I'm going to come to the exit point, I'm going to say come in here. +And unless has told us that you're coming, then you don't get on the flats. +That's one way to keep traders out. +I mean how many times has somebody knocked on your door, Oh I'm Joe Bloggs I've come to sell dusters? +You know,. +And people don't want it. +Er it's like kids or people walking through from Road to Road. +They'll ni they'll nip through the flats. +They'll deposit their rubbish, you know. +If they've had a few beers, they m they may leave something else behind. +People don't want it. +Erm and that's what I mean by access. +Controlled access. +Erm aren't complexes, in my view in my view only, in complexes of this size, it should be a controlled access. +And er you just don't get bad people wandering round the flats. +The only people you get on the flats, is the people who live on the flats, and the people who's been invited into the flats. +Erm and that's that's my view. +And that's right down here. +Wh what what's this ? +And this is all sealed up as well is it? +Yeah it's all sealed up. +All these doors. +We used to have a a dosser here. +Yeah. +Frightened the living daylights out of him when I opened the cupboard. +You say you don't get any trouble on +No no. +See it's all nailed up now. +I opened it one morning, there was somebody looking at me . +You were saying about blues at er night. +Is that weekends is it? +Er you get what what you call a small blues during the week, but Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, you can expect er large blues. +Is that on the flats or is it the . +Well you got one on the , which has got nothing to do with us. +Then you've got one on Walk. +Let's have a look round here, check this. +Yeah. +So what they're doing now, is sealing the walkways off. +It's a bit of a So you can't get through. +It's a bit of a pain in the neck, cos we can't walk round you see. +the whole walk's been sealed off? +Yeah the whole walkway's been sealed off. +Which one's that, is that the ? +It's erm d der I think. +And after fourteen months up here I can still get lost. +Yeah. +and whereas before we could walk round in a on a circular route, Yeah that's Walk. +So you have to you're just doubling back on yourselves . +Yeah just d doubling back on ourselves. +But erm er when the W Winter comes on, the wind starts whistling round this place, it er cuts into your ears a bit. +You can feel the cold. +You not have any any trouble with vagrants on these empties? +Well we've had one or two, as I say, I found a chap in number fifteen, the outhouse, I just asked him to move on. +Er next night so I frightened him, I was gonna nail it up while he was inside, and he soon come out . +You've not had anybody tear the tin down and +No well not as far we've we've found. +Er nobody tearing the tin down. +. You'd you'd probably come in the daytime, and you'd find some of the tin's been ripped off a bit, you might find a find a corner's been ripped off. +And then you know, when you check up on it, the following day, you probably find the council's been back in and forgot to secure it, so we've got s a nail and some nails and a hammer, and we'll er just re-secure it and let the the council know in the morning. +Walk, completely empty. +It's all this one side of the flats isn't it ? +Yes it's all this side, er phase er one, two and three. +How do you find it on the parts that are still populated, I mean the +Well they're more or less no different to what we're walking down here now. +You might see somebody scurrying about later at night or in the morning. +It's not very lively? +No. +No. +Creeping off to work. +It's the main problem we get to face in the daytime now, is the windows being smashed. +And obviously you can er ascertain that er, when more windows get smashed, the locals are gonna start complaining to the council, that it looks a bit of an eyesore, even though it's an eyesore now, it'll be a greater eyes eyesore then. +But we're not on the flats in the daytime, +Yeah. +So there's nothing we can do about it. +And most of that goes on in the daytime +Mm. +does it? +And this is Walk. +Walk yeah. +Number six is the loos. +You can walk down here,don't walk down here at nighttime if it's er if it's chock-a-block. +Alright then. +The lady lives over the blues must have a set of earphones somewhere. +And she's got three kiddies so she moves out at nighttime. +Yeah we don't erm antagonize them. +If we see there's quite a few on the walkways, and if we know that they're outsiders then we'll we'll turn round and we'll walk back the other way. +It's better to walk b back, and look at them for a d you know, from afar, than +Yeah. +try and push your way through. +On to. +There's a cupboard there that's been ripped open, I mean is that just part of the vandalism that goes on? +Well no, knowing our it's probably the er electricity board's come along, to read the meter, somebody's put a screw in it, and they've got a crowbar and just opened it up. +That's not vandalism. +No. +No. +He cleaned it up a bit and a scrap yard and it, and this thing and they were like hills and rock gardens, you know like +Oh really! +hundreds of yards long +Yeah. +and and deep! +Yeah. +This bloke, you know, had been working on it for fifty years nonstop and +Oh my god! +Yeah, Sue Sue wants it +o over a weekend don't you? +Just give up! +I can't, I just wanna sort of look out the window and it's changed completely! +Not asking a lot now is it? +Oh it's great! +Ah! +the old boy . +Yeah. +Ah yeah. +Yeah. +And they build up the old . +Yeah and you don't even notice it do you? +So these cupboards have gotta go on here but the door's gotta go up in the meantime? +Yep. +Yep. +Oh right. +,. +We've still we've still got a little bit of fiddling +Oh I see +to do with the what the well we've got instead of all these individual prints I've got I've got long ones cos if the +Yeah. +floor is +Mm. +very uneven. +I'm gonna fit them. +But until you finish the your messing around you're better to leave the doors off aren't you? +What you gonna do on the floor? +Well we're looking at we were having a look this morning at erm that vinyl floor covering stuff +Mm. +Mm. +would be best. +Do you want to see if there's some wallpaper in here Mark? +! +No! +It's er that that we're particularly +Ah that's er lovely +keen on. +isn't it? +Yeah! +Got a real sort of er +But it's gonna be difficult to decorate +around it, you know, and keep it intact but we'll we'll try it. +That's amazing isn't it ? +How people +Yeah. +with chi , er tastes are different? +Are you gonna keep this, keep this as well are you? +I'm sure it was at one time. +Gotta be, but +carpet, I mean that was ! +Yeah. +I think the door's nice though! +The thing about this is , it's gonna be a nice room isn't it, when the +Well quite! +Yeah. +you know, the garden is done. +Got a decent so you're gonna have this as a dining room are you? +Well I I I don't know. +Well that might just be you know, like another sitting room +It's +Yeah. +tasteful innit? +so +Yeah I mean +Yeah I +Lovely! +mean +Yeah, don't don't, try not to damage any more of it, I mean +No , no I really think of that. +Are you gonna be able to get some more from the manufacturer to +to patch that bit up are you? +Patch that together, yeah! +. +Yeah! +And we'll have another fire in here. +What was that, an old +Yeah and a +gas fire thingy was it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Mm. +If we could get a you know, if we could open that up cos we got one of tho th , have you seen the fire in action? +In the lounge? +Yeah +Yeah. +I like it. +Yeah , yeah got a glimpse +Yeah. +of that. +I like it. +Oh . +Oh it is, and we put, light the fires +Nice and warm. +as well. +Yes, it is nice and warm actually but +That's actually gas isn't it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah, Derek was saying about it. +Gives off quite a lot of heat. +And I think they're quite expensive to run but it was so nice we +We got rid of that one. +we thought we'd try it out. +Well the new one was the new one was we looked at one in the gas +showroom when this +Alright! +thing came out +Mm. +What's the matter? +What's the matter? +Mm. +You're not tape to taping are you ? +No I'm not actually +I've rewound it once. +Can't work out how Mark, we'd like to but we can't +work out how! +Well you just shove one aerial output th the aerial input on the other one I think. +Mm. +Or video, no, video +No I like it, this one's nice +output to video input. +I like this. +Yeah. +Yeah, it's nice that! +You've got +It's convenient isn't it? +That's right, very +Switch it on and +you can +What's that? +The thermostat, I'm just wondering how it works +Yeah, we know about the thermostats. +cos there's another thermostat on the on the boiler itself. +Tell me the difference between a volt meter and an amp meter? +Well one measures volts and one measures amps! +What's the difference between a volt and an amp? +The volt is the amount of current passing through +Yeah. +yeah? +An amp amps is current, and volts is volts ! +Well basically with a with a volt meter +Volt +Right? +you put the the volt meter across the voltage you're measuring say, like a battery, right +Right. +got a battery, put the volt +Right. +across it +Yeah. +and you measure volts, okay? +Yeah, they're fine +That tells you how much,wha what sort of voltage battery you need does it? +Well that tells you the voltage of the battery at that particular +That you're using? +time, yeah? +I understand. +Right. +So +But +an amp meter +amp meter you put in series say, like if you put a light bulb across +Right. +the battery you put one lead on the battery for the light bulb and then the other +The other one +lead of the bulb would go through +through +the meter. +Right, to the +Does that ma +bulb? +So it'd go from the, from the battery +And Mark's gone past! +Are we there? +Are we there? +Are we there? +And +If we go from the battery to the bulb , from the bulb to the meter +To the amp meter, from the meter to the battery +from the meter to the battery , yeah. +Right. +And what does that do? +And that measures current. +And that measures the amount of current flow to +, when did you pick it up? +Oh! +Well we had it, got it last night. +Did you? +Yeah. +Why's that then? +Is that something you're teaching the kids are you? +We are we we've got an amp meter and a volt meter and I thought they were the same thing you see. +No. +You've gotta be a bit careful cos if you stick an amp meter or a current meter across a battery you're effectively shorting the battery out. +Right. +Right? +Cos you've effectively got a dead short through an ammeter whereas a a volt meter's got a a hun , a high er resistance or an open circuit, effectively. +Right. +So if I put a volt meter on a battery it would short the battery? +That's what you said isn't +No. +it? +Amp meter across the battery. +If you put an amp meter across a battery? +Yeah. +But the current would flow wouldn't it? +Yeah, the current would flow +Yeah. +but you would get a lot of current flowing. +Depends what the what the a , I mean if you've got an ammeter set to milliamps and you stuck it across a battery +Right. +the meter would go smack across the thing! +Right. +But if you have it set to to amps +Amps. +then you'd probably get, well whatever the battery's capable of . +But the first time he's hitting it +See what I mean? +it bloody hard ! +So you've gotta be a bit careful! +Well why on earth would a school have an +And +amp meter for? +all these buttons like the normal +I mean, I understand why a volt me , you know, I mean, but I mean, battery's have +? +has a voltage +written on +. +anyway! +I mean, so what do you want a +Yeah. +volt meter for? +Well when they +I'm going to look at being funny. +Yeah. +Oh I'll be out in a minute. +Erm if you the thing is,yo a battery might be marked nine volts +Right. +but when it's dead, it might only have six on it, six volts. +Left? +Well if it's dead, it's dead isn't it? +Yeah, well it's dead yeah but what happens is, when it dies the volts go down, that's why the the yo your radio or whatever got it's operating and stops working. +Know what I mean? +So if it, if it's got six volts left, it wouldn't be dead would it? +It would just be +Yeah, it'd be dead. +Would it? +Yeah. +Right. +So what's the point of having a volt meter then? +Just to find out what voltage you got left in your battery? +Well no, your volt me , I use volt meters all the time at work. +You make, build a circuit if you +Right +wanna test the power supplies you put a volt meter across to measure cos if you think +So the power is going round? +No, that's +Well they +an amp meter! +You just wanna measure the volt, it's just a test meter isn't it? +I mean, you get meters normally, the meters we've got at work and you just turn a knob and it's got ohms, volts, amps frequency you know, whatever. +And they get them on one machine? +Yeah. +I mean, you can use a volt meter as an amp meter if you put a shunt across it. +Right. +See what I mean. +Oh well at least I know that there is a, a different thing. +It's all, it's all to do with ohms law, if you know ohms law then you'll understand +I don't know ohms law. +what's what. +No. +I mean I think really new, newfangled things! +It's really not this . +Oh it came yesterday did it? +Oh she's sitting in it already. +I don't know, he's got the key but he's not gonna get in. +Oh. +Yeah. +I'll have a quick shake, shufty. +It's very nice. +Well the si , the back door's open innit? +Oh is it? +Yeah, so you can close it. +Station please! +Cor this is nice innit? +First time +Underneath +I've been in one of these. +underneath there that's your miles per gallon so as you're driving along +Yeah. +that tells you you know, how how you're driving it and onto +Oh right! +economy +Yeah, yeah, got you! +er been quite good in that one. +Ha, so when you put your foot down the meter goes smack ! +That's right. +Yeah. +There's your lights. +Side lights. +And what's, is this beam? +No, that's er the rear fog light +Oh right! +and those are you know +The beam would be on a stick wouldn't it? +Yeah. +It's on one of the sticks. +Yeah. +Yeah erm +Oh it's nice +isn't it? +Electric windows if we go out later. +Oh, sun roof as well. +Oh yeah +You can er adjust the lights, say that Mark's got in the back +Yeah. +put that on one +Oh right, why? +cos there's somebody in the back and that's +Oh right, cos of, that changes the angle +of the lights. +Oh right. +It changes the two +Yeah, mm mm. +erm and then you can control the density of the other lights. +And they go down at a bit at a time or it'll go all the way down . +Mm! +Nifty, what? +This is your mhm! +Oh my god! +like that. +Is that for the mirrors? +Yeah. +Oh god! +That's +Do you wanna drive? +Take it for a little drive. +No, probably an ! +I mean no, +I wouldn't ! +I'd take any other cars! +No I wouldn't ! +In any other car, I'd say it was no. +Well you took your dad out didn't you? +I know, but bit different. +Honestly! +The steering lock on? +If you were to come back there +Oh! +all the wa , all the way +starting up car +We'd better get her out of here, she'll want one tomorrow! +No, I wouldn't want . +How long have you been waiting for this car, a while haven't you Spen? +Erm +Got a huge accelerator pedal innit? +Just like it covers the whole of +January. +your foot! +January we bought +January, February, March, mm, that's not bad actually. +So incredibly quiet! +A lovely sound isn't it? +Erm +Mm , too right! +How many valves has it got? +Got sixteen valves has it? +Yeah, no , twenty six. +Four cylinders four +Oh. +. +Even even with ashtray +Yeah. +Ah ! +Ah no ! +Oh that's sickly isn't it? +That is really smart innit? +Ah that's brilliant! +How does that work then? +They probably have a big +No idea. +whole department working on these ashtrays and then +Yeah, I would of thought eighteen German engineers just +Yeah. +on working the ashtray . +That fascinates me! +Oh that's brilliant that ! +No I like the light because like, as soon as as soon as you put your key in the door +Yeah. +the light comes on, and then it waits until you start the engine until it goes off +Yeah. +and then when you get out as soon as, as soon as the car comes to rest the light comes on +Yeah. +and then it stays on until you've closed the door and locked it, you know +Yeah. +then it goes out. +No, there's all sorts of remote to adjust yo you think you're gonna set the clock so you have a little knob +Yeah. +don't you? +But you don't, you've got a button to erm and you just put that . +Oh god! +I'm surprised it hasn't got a digital one actually. +No. +I don't like digital clocks +No. +I'd rather have it like that. +For actually glancing down and looking at a clock +It's nice. +a +Mm. +dial one is is actually easier to read isn't it? +Well +What's sa what's the hi-fi like then? +Mark . +Not bad really. +Just do one more when we've listened to it. +The radio's pretty good. +And the aerial is in is those two strips on the window. +Oh yeah, yeah. +Rather than an aerial. +Vandal-proof job +Yeah. +you see. +Good for vandals, yeah. +There is is like a break, this vandal-proof thing, if you park in a duff area +Yeah. +You pull them thing out do you. +Yeah. +You can +Oh yeah, take it +Take your +out. +radio out and and lock it in the glove box. +And they give you you get four keys and one of them is called the chauffeur's key +Yeah. +and that will drive the car but it won't unlock the glove box or the boot +Yeah, for the chauffeur. +so if you do , you don't want your chauffeur to know what you've got in the glove box +A chauffeur key ! +That's your job then Sue! +I like these seatbelts at the back! +They come from the other way +Yeah, it's amazing! +don't they? +They go the other way to normal. +Yeah. +That's good actually. +They say that's so that if there's an accident +They can just get out innit? +then people can er get you out easier. +Oh course +Yeah. +yeah! +Never thought of that. +A lot of design's gone into that. +Good old Gerries +ah? +Yeah. +But it's not +Yeah but this one did as well. +Yeah. +These floor mats see they've got little screw in things. +Oh, what's the idea? +Just twist the lock and they +Mm! +It's a bizarre amount of detail but +It's got a lovely , lovely gear box hasn't it? +Mm. +Gear stick on that. +Yeah. +Nice little chunky one. +Yeah, it's very nice! +The Germans have certainly got it haven't they? +But i , Mark you look at this accelerator pedal it's the whole sort of length of your foot, it's +Mm. +so comfortable instead of +Mm. +that piddling bit that goes in the ball of your foot. +And you find you see you've got that little thing to put your clutch foot on as well. +That, next to you. +Is there? +Oh +No. +god! +No, go to +the left. +Oh I see what you mean. +And there's a little +Yeah, yeah a little +they've even put that. +They're so Yeah, well it's all for comfort I think. +Yeah. +They're amazing aren't they? +How fast will it go then Spence, I'm sure you wound it up? +No, you mustn't take it over +They've tested it at a hundred and thirty five miles done, eh? +You ge yo you mustn't take it over er, three and a half things or eighty miles an hour +Mm. +for the first six hundred miles. +Mm. +But the top +Oh course, yeah! +speed in the book is a hundred and twenty nine. +Oh cos you only got it yesterday didn't you? +Yeah. +Mm. +Mm. +I don't think we'll get anywhere near a hundred and twenty nine in that ! +It's not that so much though, it's just a luxury and the the quietness of the engine and everything +Mm. +isn't it? +Mm. +And +Er +acceleration I suppose. +Yeah, it's very good it's very good like between forty to seventy, you know, for actual +Mm. +pulling away from lights or whatever it's not, nothing very special. +The thing is when you're doing +No, but I mean +but when you're doing fifty and you wanna overtake something +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's when it's very tight. +It's very nice! +Let's go and see my sis! +Yeah, very impressive isn't it? +Got a nice sound to it as well, when you're when you're not speaking. +Mm. +Little +But it only works +the horns. +with the erm the ignition does it? +Oh yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah we haven't tried the horn yet. +Probably goes diddle di der der da diddle der der ! +Ooh! +Well you wouldn't argue with that would you ? +Splendid, yeah! +Oh yes , very nice! +Very nice Spencer! +Nice interior, grey, I like grey. +I'm surprised you couldn't +Yeah I +actually and the door opens for you. +Yeah, that's a bit of a let down isn't it? +You've gotta ha work that handle, yes. +It is really, you've gotta open the door ! +Want someone to lift you out as well do you Sue? +Well you know. +Nice big chunky doors on it. +Yes it's very good! +Lovely colour! +You choose the colour did you? +Well I had +Cor! +like a blanket with bright red dark red or erm or white. +It's sort of a is it a sort of bluey green? +Or is it a racing green? +It's called nau nautic green. +Or +I mean the reds and greens are a bit boring aren't they? +It's +Mm. +different. +Even though it's just a car . +What the hell is that +The +smell? +I dunno, it stinks! +Phworr, Jesus! +Phworr! +You're meant to have a a beige upholstery with it but I think the grey would be +Yeah. +nice. +Oh, better. +Yeah, I don't really like the . +Yeah very nice! +If only we could. +I like the cigarette bit! +Don't even smoke but she likes the cigarette bit ! +Ashtray! +Don't smoke +do we darling? +Well no,. +Where's your car? +Oh it's just up the road. +It's just, I I you know, we were there and we'd sort of gone past so rather than reverse +Well no, I I just carried on cos I saw a space there, that's all. +Ooh! +So how come you got a filthy cold then? +Everybody went last week and I got it, didn't I? +Alright. +Are your mum and dad alright? +Yeah, they're alright, yeah, yeah! +Said we leave it on the back cos we got roped into , but there we go ! +So where did you stay then, there? +Is it +Not much +No. +chance of that! +No I went in bed and breakfast. +They know the accommodation you see and it's really grot! +Oh. +But it's very good! +Sort of make breakfast in about half an hour, quarter of an hour. +Right. +So +the North then? +Well I'm not get a taxi from the station you know a dump! +It's funny actually cos I thought this is the first Saturday when we vegged out to . +Well I didn't actually expect you to be in really +No. +but we thought well we're going up the grave and it's not exactly out the way so we thought we'd pop in. +Alright? +Erm some of your clothes I didn't take with me and they're at mum's, I I mean I . +To be honest, I didn't know what you were really +It's lovely! +I mean I didn't take a lot with me, I mean I took too much as it was and my arm carrying it across the Underground . +And so the +Did you go on the train rather than drive? +Yeah. +I mean the there's no parking at the B and B +Yeah. +There's no parking at the hospital, it's terrible! +And er you know, it just wasn't worth it. +, I should think it's good for him! +Put on a bit of weight haven't you? +This looks +Yeah. +wonderful! +Mm. +I thought you were supposed to go round those, not +Have you seen the new Star Trek yet then? +No. +From I what I see advertised wha +Ah that's whe +Yeah. +when does it come to I , is it in Ipswich then? +Ipswich at the moment. +Yeah. +Oh right. +But honestly it's make a date for next week, okay? +Yeah. +Did you do the Star Trek competition on Radio One? +Radio Times. +Or +Radio One. +Yeah. +I can I +No we did, we did the one in Radio Times didn't we? +Which one? +Steve Wright +No. +was doing it was he? +No. +No it was erm +God innit cold again? +Simon Bates. +Yeah. +Yeah. +His cardigan's on. +Er, yeah I know +Have you seen it then? +before he was on. +Mm. +Good? +Is it? +Best one I think. +Very! +Yeah. +Do you still watch +Is it still the old crowd? +Do you watch Star Trek now? +Shi , William Shatner? +Mm. +Really? +Is it really? +Good god, he must +Don't like it now though without the likes of William Shatner and that. +Is that the new one? +Yeah. +Well you'll like th th this, it's very, very well done! +Extremely +Oh! +well done! +It's sort of it's like erm analogy between what's happened in Russia and all that sort of thing cos they couldn't . +Ah! +Oh right! +It is very good! +Have to go and see that then girl! +Mm. +Yeah, could go next weekend if you want? +Or Friday? +Well we'll be going to see J F K sometime this week won't we? +Mm. +I wouldn't mind seeing +that either actually. +I thought William Shatner had been had to be resumed or something. +Right. +Yeah, the well honestly the toupees are endless! +It must of taken them years to get them made up to look even vaguely +Has it got Scotty and that lot in it? +Yeah. +I mean Scotty's seventy six or older than +Bones is seventy one. +Yeah. +Yeah Bones has really aged ain't he? +All these old +Er, and Scotty's just you know, he's +Is, is erm +What about Scott? +Scott's in it, yeah. +Is Leonard in it then? +Yeah, they're all in it. +Are they? +They're all in it. +Good lord! +Zulu's got his own ship now. +Checkoff's in it, and , they're all in it. +Oh Zulu still looks young doesn't he? +He's probably about sixty ! +Yeah. +He's looks far better, I think he +is a younger . +Checkoff's got a toupee. +You can +Yeah? +see it. +You know, it moves without his head sort of thing, it moves away! +It really is, I mean you'd die laughing! +This has gotta be the last one though hasn't it? +They say it is. +Yeah. +Well there's loads of pensioner's jokes in some of these , it was really, very good +you know, when +Is he still admiral? +No, he's the captain. +No, yeah, he's the captain of er see he got, he got demoted didn't he? +For +Yeah. +Cos he went out of Scott's . +For going into the +Ah he got, ah he got done for that did he? +And suspiciously +Yeah, he didn't wanna be an admiral anyway did he? +No! +No, it was very good! +All about the Klingon Empire diminishing and what can they do about it? +Oh hello mate! +Yep! +I can't pick him up! +I think he's still not made out whose home he's in! +Yes, yes, you're alright aren't you? +We love you! +They're very nice cats are. +They move when you stroke them +They'd do that all night. +and dogs don't do they ? +As they indeed! +Mm. +We've been trying to . +Crawl in right by the fire can't you? +And he's such a hooligan, you know,he's knackered one of his claws again! +Daft thing about it, but I thought rather than hang on I'll get in there and get off. +Oh! +another anaesthetic to cut it back! +He's terrible! +Hello! +then? +Yeah! +Oh yeah, could do, if we try it . +You can just imagine, pull them out! +No! +Oh no! +Well really when I had the same thing , you know,and goes back for a little bit this morning and er same sort of thing. +But, you know, it's just when you think oh my god, that's money! +I mean, how much do they cost those pills? +Cor! +Nineteen and a half pounds, I thought they were more than that actually. +God! +but you know, I mean I know it's not . +Mm, it's very nice though,. +The mats had were under six pounds this morning, and I pay only half of that. +Oh you had to buy the mats do you? +Will the company buy them? +No. +Oh. +Well it was seventy six pounds before VAT. +Yeah, but you say that I paid thirty pounds for the Astra, now let's get it in the balance here, you see what I mean, and that sen and then +Mm. +they've, they're you know, quality-wise they're double the quality. +Yeah. +Plus they're the German ones and you can say +Plus more. +I can +Mm. +that that +But you'll don't you with it? +What? +With the car? +Oh yes. +But it was that or a Vauxhall . +Oh no! +Oh god! +It's not quite the same thing +Go for B M W every time! +the sports . +Ah, yeah, but the B M W I'm afraid is, they've got it haven't they? +Oh yeah I I think so too. +I think B M W's are the business really! +We were +Oh you didn't did he? +Well not cos we haven't quite got one, a B M W . +No, but a a big four wheel drive thing, you know it's quite sort of. +Oh, what that one? +, yeah. +Yeah +But you like them! +Oh wha what one is it? +He'll be at you, why didn't you get one of them? +No,wha what's it called? +You know, you wanted to drive one. +No. +Oh that, what that little jeepy thing? +Oh I know, not them! +Oh aye, you should have one of those! +Yeah we saw that in the Radio Times. +Yeah, you liked that didn't you? +Yeah. +They're not that expensive actually are they? +They're cheaper than one of those. +Oh yeah! +Those, you know, the the really should of got one, you know it's , almost a Range Rover. +Mm. +Fo four door but there's some problem because it's their . +Very +. +Mm. +I just thought it was a bit chunky. +the car. +Oh I would of gone +The BM +I would of gone for the four wheel +I do , yeah but +definitely! +I know I wouldn't, I think they've been . +Mm. +Yeah but trouble is you pray for ra , pray for snow when you've got a four wheel drive car! +God +Yeah. +snow, look! +Don't really want it. +Yeah. +So mum and dad are alright are they? +Yes, they're fine! +Have they drove +the car? +Yes. +I it's nice you know +I haven't been +no, I dro , I drove that and it's really quite nice but I might +I wish he hadn't of got it cos Sue wants it when he's finished with it. +Oh. +Do you? +Seriously, yeah. +It's a nice +Well have it! +sort of, it's a nice little car to drive actually. +It's got the Renault, the Fuego gearbox, you know. +Mm,. +It's, it is really nippy for a one point four! +Mm. +Erm, and it's, it's all there, it's, you know it's a nice car, it's the nicest car he's had! +Yeah. +And it you know, good round the cor , really nice little thing to drive, yeah. +Even though +It would be nice if it . +Oh god yeah! +Oh, you know, he's . +Really ni , I mean you get in there and you feel really comfortable and everything's there you got a nice radio as well and er but yeah, it's really very nice! +Much nicer gearbox. +It's a typical sort of Renault floppy gearbox, you know what I mean? +No. +Sort of play about with it and , instead of all boring +Yeah. +I don't like floppy gearboxes. +Oh! +I like a nice a positive ! +I like that Fuego gearbox. +Mm. +The same sort of thing as the like this could go through that. +Mm! +Yep! +Straight on! +Yeah I know , I said I want one . +Mm. +Is he gonna go . +He's now done a hundred and seven thousand, I think, a hundred and eight thousand. +Just about in the ground now innit really? +He won't let you . +It sounds like a diesel engine so . +Yeah but it's erm +Didn't he? +I didn't think , it's not that old. +I've only noticed it five years, it looks filthy, although it's been in the car wash . +Hasn't it? +Yeah, it's all the on the roads innit? +Yeah. +But you want a Sierra . +No I don't! +You wanted the Sierra! +You want the four wheel drive but it's not practical! +Oh! +So that's gone! +Mm. +Ho how far have you gotta go over before you you get a you'll get a company car at B T? +Er head a group or group leader quite a way. +Most of those have got P H D's. +It's er it's a bit strange at B T! +And then you only get a popular ghia, it's hardly worth it! +No you don't! +Don't you? +Or do you? +Actually, don't forget +Yeah, you a Sierra, yeah. +yeah. +no, then you've gotta your car. +Who? +No +No. +so th th yeah, but . +Mm. +But,th he is you know, he is very, very good about it, he would know from loads of money and he's and his company could have a one point six Sierra +Mm. +you know +Yeah. +you don't think +No. +but er I think that they were part of your pay rise one year was it? +Yeah,th they had a new, a re-think. +grading, instead of giving them a pay rise they get +That's right. +And I mean er, you know +car. +if yo if you're earning that sort of salary, I'm afraid to say, which you know, the header groups are +Mm. +I mean, to drive round in a one point six basic Sierra, well it's pathetic +It's pathetic isn't it? +really! +Mm. +Mm. +Mm. +I mean I just think +Well, well Mike didn't have one cos he was too tall! +Mm. +And he kept banging his head on the ceiling! +Yeah, I know, it's tall ! +So he didn't have one +and ma and my group leader he er he's already got about nine cars cos he collects them anyway ! +He said, what do I want another bloody car for! +So +Yeah. +he didn't +have one either. +They get a good deal really don't they? +Well we'll be going to an auction to get like a reasonable car. +Yeah. +Yeah, I'll enjoy that. +We shall get, you know, sort of, an E or and F and +They must, they must be going for rock bottom prices at the moment there! +I saw an E Sierra in the paper for about three thousand that had only done forty thousand er, an estate. +Mm. +Wasn't a very good, one point eight. +But you can save a +lot going to the auction can't you? +Bit of gamble a though! +Well as long as you don't mind the high mileage cars but if they've been going up and down the motorway all the time +Not all of them are the high mileage though are they? +. +Yeah, a fleet car. +But never mind! +Well Mike went to a we went to the auction at +Yeah. +to buy and had very much in the sports car range. +No , they don't, they tend +Mm. +to be your typical company +Company car +Yeah, yeah. +Yeah. +But they shift +So +them so quickly don't they? +Mm. +You don't get time to think about it. +Mm. +It's like in +But then if you, I mean when we went there was that, I mean, okay it was erm it was a van wasn't it? +But it was a Vauxhall Astra van but I mean it was E reg and it was three years ago and it went for two thousand quid! +You know, and it's got +That was in mint condition wasn't it? +It was an F, F reg was it? +a van. +No, it was an E reg. +Was it E? +But, if you were buying it at a garage you were probably gonna pay at least four +Mm. +four and a half. +Mm. +And it was a bargain! +Yeah. +There wasn't a mark on it, but I mean +Yeah. +Well that's cos it was a van you see. +That's right. +But I mean +Well no, but I mean even so, the the Sierras your gonna get cheaper there. +Well a van for us would be ideal wouldn't it? +I don't want a van! +Well you don't need to have back seats do you? +Especially if there's just two of us. +We could dump the dogs in the back and off you go! +You want a Sierra estate mate if you want to go knocking about the Lake District with the dogs. +Well it wouldn't matter what you +what you'd +got +the ozone, yeah. +you always want something better don't you? +I mean we went u up to Hunters this morning to get those mats +Mm. +and there was a a a five +Yeah. +five, grade five N in er sort of gun metal grey, I mean, it's all grey +Oh yeah, yeah. +leather seats and er +Yeah. +and you looked she looked at me and said , +But it said . +Thirty nine +Yeah. +nine fifty? +Yeah. +You you always want something better . +Actually +didn't he? +Who? +Nick. +Is it? +You know Nick ? +Yeah, I know Nick. +Does he work he work at Hunters on their +Mm. +? +Mm. +Hello! +What do you want then? +Well we better get, go before they start mate. +Yeah, we'd better go to Sainsbury's, +Great fun! +I hope you feel better matey! +Mhm. +Ooh! +Nice to see the kitchen's coming on at last. +Yep. +Mm. +Hey? +No. +I reckon she's foxing! +I don't do I? +No, she just sounds a bit grot! +You look very poorly! +Any excuse to watch this box, eh? +Just doesn't fancy decorating today,that's the +No. +No. +Then you get a week off. +Oh course it's, bugger it! +It's half term isn't it? +You tell her! +This is the first time I think we've sat down and done bugger all for ages! +Mm. +That's alright Sally, I believe you! +Er, yeah! +Come round again. +Getting to my +Well I mean this li , room's certainly liveable isn't it? +You can get the kitchen done, then you get your bedroom then well +Yeah. +you're there really. +Bedroom's alright. +Yep. +I'm going up in the bedroom next. +Are you? +Mhm. +Mm. +Mm. +Oh, when I are you still interested in going to these sales? +Well when I next go, you know, when I get back I'll give you a ring. +Well I'm not buying anything at the moment but if you wanna have a look round. +Good grief! +gave you that book. +Got that for Paul. +Did you? +Mm. +So I'm sorry I didn't get early enough . +But I mean, then I was bound to be very bored, except +Yeah. +when he comes up. +Yeah.. +Oh . +That's good. +Do they have new stuff there as well? +No. +I mean they've got +No, I mean relatively. +Erm +Not really, no. +No. +You're better looking at erm for er sort of newer stuff, you know, just old . +It's old or tatty really. +What's that? +Sorry? +What's that? +The auction. +The auction. +You know +Yeah. +the Estate Agent they had er an auction. +Of homes everywhere. +sorry, not ! +. +Yeah I was gonna say! +Not ,. +Yeah,. +No they wouldn't , they wouldn't have my leather chair at this auction. +No, not a bit! +And they wouldn't have it as a nice antique one, that not sort of thing, no. +But they might have if is on now. +Yeah. +It's alright might have offered you something mightn't you? +You +Mm. +might get a er as an offer. +normally though I'd ask you but I, time they're gonna get rid of there nice leather chairs, and if they're going bankrupt +No. +When is there one this week then? +Well it's at the er yeah, you could go tomorrow +you could go to the erm the viewing on Monday morning. +And then stay +Yeah. +for the sales. +Yeah, if you wanted to. +Mm. +Yeah. +Yep. +Erm no, but the nice Wednesday one went last week, but there'll be another +one in March. +Well I quite like that county one, that's plenty for me. +Yeah. +And erm +I do +no, have had theirs in February so there isn't that one and erm, have had one as well. +But yeah, there's th , the viewing on Monday for the sale on Monday. +If you want to go. +Okay! +And, when I read it in the paper cos it, you know it has the details of the sale of new on the back +Mm. +it didn't look quite so crappy but I mean nor ,no the trouble is when you read something you picture what that chest is gonna be, it's gonna +That's right. +what you like +Mm. +when you go and look at it, you think no, it's +Mm. +not what I want. +Yeah. +Yeah. +It's the classic example of those chairs we bought an we thought, oh nice set +Yeah. +of oak chairs, got there and they were gross weren't they ? +Yeah, I know but I did get those two nice farmhouse chairs +Yeah. +in beech so you can't +Yeah, worked out alright. +Is that those two ? +Two balloon chairs. +Did you buy two Victorian balloon chairs? +No, the farmhouse sort of yeah +Straight. +spindle back wood. +Spindle back, yeah. +That's all, I just looked +I thought you got some of those +with the oval on, the lips on the back? +No! +No. +No? +No. +Oh. +Right. +Right we better go mate! +Thank you ever so much for coming. +Nice to see you! +Yep! +And erm, +Take care, get well soon won't you? +Yeah. +Have a good time next week! +We will. +Alright? +Have you come in your Porsche? +Yes. +Well we try to. +Oh I don't need a great deal cos we've got plenty of potatoes. +And we've got orange juice. +I just need a bit of money to get a you know a bar of chocolate at work. +Mm. +Okay? +Mm. +Yes but I I've got quite a lot +Oh there must be some surely. +Yeah +There are some nice grapes over there. +Can munch on them tonight. +Oh these bags are knackered. +I know. +I got you some in the thing. +What do you think I got from over there? +Ah. +Right. +Sorry. +Mark, would you say we've got enough potatoes? +Yeah we've got a bag of potatoes. +Okay for those. +Thank you. +Carrots? +Do we need any carrots? +Do you ever use them? +We've got plenty of carrots. +We're alright for carrots. +Carrots okay. +Mushroom er don't get mushrooms cos I +Yeah. +won't use them. +Bananas. +I prefer to have fruit really cos I can eat them with rolls. +And we'll definitely need some rolls cos I'm right out. +We'll get you some apples then. +they've only got bloody Granny Smiths. +Haven't they got anything else? +Haven't they got any Coxes? +What are these? +Golden Delicious. +They any good? +Golden Delic no they're even worse. +They're bloody French aren't they. +Erm What have we here. +Hi. +Hello +How are you? +Fine thanks. +Hello. +Keeping well? +Okay yes, yes. +Mm goody, good. +Keep you working hard here I take it do they? +Too hard really. +Oh take care then. +Do you want any grapes? +Mm No. +Sure? +Mm mm. +Mm mm mm mm. +No? +Eighty eight P. +They're a bit er +I wouldn't say they're immaculate no. +Oh you're bound to get a few bum ones aren't you. +We only want them for tonight really don't we. +That'll do. +Pick all the bad ones off . +You don't care do you. +Here you are, shove them in there. +Yeah but why should I ? +Can I have some satsumas? +Oh we've got those haven't we. +Got them here. +Alright? +Right. +So you've got the satsumas. +Yep. +You're alright for fruit then are you? +Well fruit should be up front really so it doesn't get squashed by everything else. +What about frozen peas and things? +Put these in a bag will you? +No don't worry. +Don't worry. +Don't worry. +Haven't got any. +Don't worry. +Come on. +They're not too busy tonight are they. +I was quite surprised . +No You don't need any ? +Do you want anything ? +No. +Hate it. +Tinned carrot? +No. +Er er ooh. +Do you need a tin of carrots? +Not personally but er well are we gonna have another shop la next week? +Yeah, we're going to on Friday. +Erm well we'll get all that stuff then. +Ju just get what I'm gonna have this week. +Which is fruit and I'll need some rolls er +Do you want any noodles? +You never eat them +No. +No I +What about any packets of rice? +Would you like that? +No. +Just get s erm +Eggs are alright. +I I just do vegetables. +I have like peas, carrots and potatoes and I'll have a pie or something like that. +Something simple. +Do you eat cheese? +Yeah we need some Cheddar don't we. +Here you are. +This will do. +Right. +Okay. +E English Cheddar, or shall we try something else? +Try something else. +Bit boring. +Get ah erm Scottish Cheddar or farmhouse Cheddar's quite nice. +Right. +Eggs? +They're great big lumps though. +No I've got some eggs. +Is that gonna be enough? +That's too small. +No er this will do. +We g always use it all up +Yeah. +don't we. +Brie we've got. +Brie? +Now, how are you for meat? +Meat? +Come on. +Er mm seriously, what meat do you want? +Erm +You've got pies, you've got some sausages. +Well I, I, I I I'm going off ham. +We could get some bacon for tomorrow's breakfast. +Cos you'll need a good breakfast if you're going away won't you. +Well I was gonna cook dinner tomorrow anyway. +I want want a cooked breakfast. +I'm sick of cooked breakfast. +I'll be back +Oh yeah. +to them every day now. +Well I haven't. +Well I can do you scrambled eggs tomorrow then. +And tomato. +Garlic bread! +Garlic okay . +And I'll want the rolls. +Want the little rolls yeah. +They're lovely they are. +Trouble is er they get burned, the tops always burn, and the polythene always melts. +Have you noticed that? +These are alright What about portions of chicken? +How are you doing for those? +Er well I think we've loads of it. +It's like some of it looks as if it's er getting a bit old. +It's the trouble is we need to clean that out because the s some of the +I know. +stuff gets left at the bottom. +? +I want those chicken things that we had before. +Yeah I was trying to think where they are. +What the chicken kiev or what you had ? +No. +They're the ones that you bought me last week. +Oh right. +I think they're +They were in a box. +Bird's Eye I think. +I know. +I know I'm trying to think where I got them. +They were over there. +Not not here. +They were +Oh. +right over the other side. +Now, orange juice? +Yep. +Ooh, look at these Sue. +I'll have er +That'll do you won't it? +I'll have a four-pack. +No, Sue. +Yeah two then. +Well actually, I no I won't have those, erm I'll have something else instead. +Er But don't want this stuff, it's really expensive isn't it. +What's this stuff? +Fruit Coolers. +This is cheaper. +Mm +that's cheaper. +Don't want +What about some grapefruit? +Yeah baby red stuff will do. +Here you are. +Makes a change. +That's it. +Yeah I'm +getting fed up with that orange stuff. +Yeah pears. +And slices in fruit juice. +Peaches? +Sainsbury's own are pretty good. +Yeah. +I like them. +Thirty nine Very good. +Yeah, I'm learning. +Mm. +Right that'll do. +Okay. +And +And I'll have a Pick and Mix. +Gonna have some chocolate. +Packet of Penguins. +Mhm. +God . +Ooh Cadbury's Creme Eggs. +Oh. +No. +Please. +No. +I'll get you some next week. +. +Mm. +If I can eat them all tonight can I have them? +No. +How much? +Yeah. +It's nice stuff though. +When +come around maybe you can have some of Er have they got the little barry things? +It's one of these isn't it? +Yes these are the boys. +Thirty six, right. +I've got +Mm. +Can I have a small Pick and Mix? +No. +Ha. +Bar of chocolate? +No. +Yeah, one bar of chocolate. +How about this? +Rich, dark, plain . +One of those? +Actually Milky Bar I think I'd prefer that tonight. +How about a Sainsbury's one? +Probably it doesn't taste any different. +No it bloody does mate. +Does it? +If you want white chocolate, Milky bar. +It's the only +Right. +stuff that Oh is that that Nestle's th Yeah, Milky Bar. +Mm. +I've had other white chocolate and it doesn't taste the same. +Erm bread, fruit. +Yeah I know. +Ooh +Can you manage that trolley? +I can take it for you if you like. +No. +Do we need any kitchen towels? +No. +Bin liners? +Light bulbs? +No. +Batteries? +Plax? +To get rid of your plaque. +Nope. +Oh dear. +Do you want some er Right Guard or any thing ? +Ah , excellent . +Yeah. +Armpit stuff. +Yeah. +No there's the roll-on thing. +Yeah well +Well you can get what you want and I'll get what I want. +Don't leave the trolley there. +No that stuff you know that in the green tin that we had before will do. +I think we're getting a bit low on shampoo but that +Yeah. +that'll wait till +next week. +Erm there's one need Small one. +Just read its contents if you +wanna know the weight. +As long as it's ozone-friendly you're okay. +Yeah I know, I don't want to have to carry a big one back with me though. +Perhaps I'll have a rollie. +That's good. +I don't like those things though . +No I don't either, no. +God it doesn't feel very heavy does it? +No. +Right? +Mm. +We've all been told we've got smelly armpits so now we have to buy the stuff. +Mm. +with +No you've got loads of hairbrushes. +I know. +I'm not I'm not going to get one, I'm just seeing what they've got. +Right. +Do you need any butter? +Er no. +Is there anything else? +Er no. +Yeah. +Buy all that lot . +Erm yeah. +Erm what's that stuff called? +Erm you usually get +Oh well of course you wouldn't would you darling. +Wouldn't just like Hartley's jam would you. +No. +No no no no no . +Here you are, French conserve. +Raspberry. +Looks good. +No we don't get those, they're more expensive. +We get these. +Sainsbury's own conserve . +Absolutely. +Wherever they are. +Erm +I can't find them. +Oh we used to get this stuff. +Do you remember this? +Roses. +No? +Oh. +Can't find them. +Maybe nobody bought it. +No it's down here. +Sainsbury's conserve. +Ah. +Er strawberry. +Strawberry. +For a change. +And blackcurrant. +No, just the one. +Apricot. +No, just the one. +Just one. +Right and a +pile of rolls mate. +Pile of rolls. +Oh and erm you get the rolls, I'll find the chicken, alright? +Well what do you want? +Crispy ones. +There aren't Oh Ooh reduced to fifty eight instead of seventy two. +What a bargain. +Oh lovely. +Right. +Better have er twelve of those eh? +S oh even that's not enough really. +I have what, four a day? +Say three a day, fifteen rolls,er yeah get cos they freeze alright. +Yeah. +Oh, why is it you can never find the stuff when you want it? +It was quite a flat box with +Yeah I know. +two bits in. +Bloody hell. +Ah! +Now they're quite handy. +Was that me? +Mm. +How much is this? +One pound and ninepence. +How much? +Mm. +For one slice? +Mm. +Are you sure it's not on the other side round here? +No? +Ah! +Here we go. +Ah. +No. +They're fish . +No they're not them, they're fish. +It was that sort of box though. +Can't find them +Getting close. +Turkish grills . +Yeah I know. +They're not round here. +Oh, bloody hell . +I don't really want to go on to for a few minutes. +Yeah okay. +I don't know darling. +Look well what else are we gonna get you . +Oh alright well we'll get something else then. +What about pizza? +I could cut that in half and have one I could +Hey? +ha Pizza. +Mm. +Haven't had one of those for ages. +Erm Gino Ginelli. +That's Bird's Eye. +Gino Ginelli. +One eighty nine. +Oh well you cut that in halves in half . +Mm. +Mm. +Half one night, half another. +That'll do. +That'll keep you going. +Bottle of wine? +Gateau? +Bottle of wine, yeah. +Quick. +Gateau. +Get the gateau, I'll get the wine. +Where's the trolley? +Mm? +Hey? +Where's the trolley? +it's here. +Oh. +Erm +Two thirty nine. +Eh? +Two thirty nine. +Do you want the pecan +Torte. +nut Danish pastry? +You didn't like it that much? +No I want something really sort of +what about this? +Erm Do no I'm not really keen on gateaus really. +Unless it's got like +Black Forest. +Want something like you know Death by Chocolate that +Yeah. +you can buy in pubs? +You never seem to be able to buy that frozen do you ? +Black Forest? +No? +No. +No. +Er that that's just you eat it and there's +Chocolate Indulgent. +Well that's the boy isn't it. +That is er that's it. +That looks like erm +Two ninety nine. +Arthritis Care ? +What the hell's that doing on there? +It's a cure for arthritis is it. +Look. +Mm. +Action for people with arthritis . +That's three quid +Is that all? +Yeah, but you only need one slice mate, whereas with a gateau you need three slices . +Go on then. +So that's sort of volume you're talking. +You feel the weight of that compared to a gateau box . +Yeah alright , that'll do then. +Alright let's just get a packet of biscuits for the dogs and that'll do. +Dog's gonna have a packet of biscuits and I can't have a Pick and Pix. +Yeah. +You don't wanna go to then. +No, better not. +Yeah. +Can you get Woman's Own? +Mm? +Can you get Woman's Own? +What for? +Well it's got er Zeta Jones on it hasn't it. +But you're gonna +No that's alright, I'm in the queue aren't I. +Are you debating? +Well sort of yeah. +that one. +Mm. +You ought to one each. +Be a trolley each then . +Ha? +Need a trolley each then don't you. +Yeah Yeah +Go on +All right. +Too late. +Never mind. +You in a hurry then? +Yeah, we're always in a hurry. +go if you want cos I'm in no hurry. +No no, it's alright. +Think everybody's in a hurry to get really. +I didn't think it'd be like this. +I usually come +Neither did I. +about three. +Two or three?if you don't hit the the month and they're okay but if you hit the +Yeah it's funny isn't it. +Mm. +you can't even get in the car park. +No. +Laura, leave things alone. +Leave them. +Leave them. +Bring 'em here. +We've got to pay for them first. +No. +write protected against my Hang on, er that doesn't come up. +Don't worry about it. +Just fucking type it. +Tut. +John. +There you are. +Cheers. +Look at that. +Yeah I know +Yeah. +I dunno. +Does it change the ty type? +If you put in a great big long string does it change the t +No. +It's I wanna try f You can do it. +You can do it. +Because if I load in You can do it it because when I when we originally loaded this, +Right. +it comes up with open Windows Two, system blah blah blah blah, and it's on about four lines. +It's a square box. +Oh right. +So what I, I, I fucking spent ages. +I think what it is, it's a Postscript file. +You have +Oh. +to do it in Postscript format,and it outputs it straight onto the middle of the screen. +But we're only outputting a single line,so you that's all you can do. +But the open Windows One when it comes up, it comes up square, and it's got open Windows +It's probably +open Windows Two version or open Windows Version Two and then something else. +About three lines' worth. +Yeah, +Mm. +they've all got one. +So it can be done. +All gone. +All gone. +But I haven't been able +All gone. +to suss out how to do it. +It's only it might be in the ROM mode, to do that. +Yeah. +I haven't fi ou found out how to do that. +That's the telephone. +Erm +Le telefon. +Right. +What are you doing with ? +What are you doing with it? +The interesting thing there +Hang on a minute. +Benjamin. +alright and then +You'll be on there all day mate. +just being very pedantic about +Mm. +Mm. +But never mind. +I will er get +What's the point? +You just will turn it on and not you won't listen and +Yeah it's it's a pose isn't it? +Look I'm checking the batteries, right? +Go and make a cup of tea Yun. +Checking checking the bloody battery. +You just waste the battery. +don't worry about it do I? +today? +Erm today we've got er dunno. +Rolls, erm a banana and a +Was the wife pleased to see ? +Yeah. +Well she wasn't please to see me, no. +No. +Well of course not . +So what do you got me? +Anything? +You haven't got any erm Wet We Wet Ones in here have we? +What's a Wet One? +It was lovely by the way. +It was lovely. +Was it? +Yeah it was. +Good, good. +Did you go to ? +Course I went. +Why was substituted? +Cos he was shit. +Was that the only reason ? +I had some Wet Ones. +Ah! +Excuse me . +These are the boys. +You're in the way of the bloody teapot. +Oh, where's the kettle? +Well I was gonna move the teapot Bedge. +Who's got the kettle? +took it away. +just taken it . +What are they gonna do with the bloody teapot, the miserable gits?can't be bothered. +is not drinking tea . +Oh my God. +Bloody hell. +I'm sterilizing my knife. +It's got old cheese and old bits +Oh. +and bobs on it. +Oh you redo his disk did you? +Yeah. +He really needs to get to see and take off the stuff that . +Mm mm. +It's terrible. +buy some more +Fuck off. +Gotta . +You gotta get another bloody box. +Do you want a big one or a little one? +Hey Norm. +Norm Yeah . +Erm nothing really. +Marmite. +Marmite. +My mate Marmite, yeah. +Bloody d I ain't had a cup of tea yet. +Tut . +Oh hang on, you've got some to do haven't you? +I've done it mate. +No you haven't. +I have. +Have you? +Mm. +Yeah. +Oh don't . +I've got a here. +already. +You haven't. +You haven't even logged back in, you lying git. +If I start going in there and doing it all you've gotta show how to . +Just say fuck off. +I don't mind. +I've got a database of what it looked like before you touched it so if it fucks up +Yes, what a . +What a poser, ha? +No he looks like er a B B +C T V presenter doesn't he +Like a cameraman. +All I need do is get meself some really expensive trainers,tracksuit, be well away. +Change my colour. +Yeah. +Come in here wearing a shell suit. +And I just light my lighter in your direction. +God. +Do you realize how easy they go up? +You're left with just the elastic. +Mm. +Some poor little kid six years old and he was wearing his shell suit +from America or something +and he walked past a skip that was burning,little spark came out, whoosh and he went up. +Ninety percent burns. +wear a shell suit. +I'm surprised they're allowed to sell them now, if they're dangerous. +There was a bit of a a few years ago about erm . +Yeah I can imagine it. +No they er they weren't short enough. +How How easily they come off. +No they were they were quite inflammable. +Yeah? +Yeah. +Mhm. +B M W +Cheap cars. +Hello. +Hello. +Have you had another haircut? +Yeah. +You have a haircut every week? +No. +He just keeps changing style.. +No . +Be brilliant. +You'll like it. +Be . +Oh I know I'll like it. +Be . +You'll like Echo and the Bunnymen, that'll be right up your street. +Very psychedelic these days. +Oh shit . +Doing covers of er old Rolling Stones' tunes and +psychedelic . +now eh? +I just like . +Seen them. +We're going back thirty years aren't we? +Got all their albums. +albums. +All their albums I have. +What, it bash you in the back of the neck? +No hit the door. +Yeah. +No it's just +It is. +if you get knocked on the arse innit? +It is. +Cos me neck's killing me. +Oh. +What's happened then? +Hit a Mercedes. +Did you? +Yeah. +Did you suddenly tense up when you saw the door? +I didn't actually see I n I never saw the door. +Oh you just hit it. +I just heard a bang. +What happened then? +Well he ran into someone's motor and rode off. +Whose fault was it? +Oh, I reckon it was his. +Do you? +Why, what happened? +Here we go again. +The third picture he's drawn. +Why don't you just do one ? +No I've got I've got one here. +Right. +Parked was here, I was going up that way. +That's me by the way. +Yeah. +He was parked, he'd sort of just pulled in there and left his car. +He was over here somewhere . +Door was open, headlights on. +I came up, didn't see his door, went through the gap and wham, bam. +You could argue that it was it was his right of way.. +Why? +He wasn't even in the car. +Yeah I know but if you look +I mean if there was no-one in the car and the door was bloody open then +And the engine was running was it? +Yeah well he shouldn't have he should never have left that engine running cos he wasn't +Yeah I know. +in there for starters, and he shouldn't have left the door open. +Yes.. +Shouldn't leave the engine running if you're not in the car. +What you hit his door did you? +Yeah. +So I closed it for him. +Oi mate you left your door open. +Door open. +Just imagine if he'd been sitting there with his legs dangling outside . +So you didn't see the er +the door open ? +No I didn't s er s I didn't see his door open. +Well I I would say it's his fault. +Mm. +It sounds a bit dodgy if you've got out the car, left all your lights and stuff on the bloody door open. +Mm. +In th in the middle of the road. +Yeah. +How long was he gone then? +I dunno. +What was he getting something out the boot or something? +I dunno how long he was The boot was open yeah. +His fault mate. +He won't get away with that. +Oh shut up +Hello, sanctuary. +He's seeking sanctuary +Sanctuary. +My son, what can I do for you? +Nothing, just be here for me. +We all love quality so much. +He's come for confession. +He's over there. +Over there? +Over there. +What over in the other corner? +So can I get ? +You just want some extra money don't you? +No, it does hurt. +But it didn't hurt till this morning. +Do much damage to yours? +Er indicator smashed er pushed the headlight in a little bit +wing was a little bit dented +? +Write-off then. +Yeah, it was last night. +Yeah, write-off . +A definite write-off. +Not as far as the insurance company are concerned. +Do you know if ? +No. +I'm waiting for Bedge. +Oh . +What what have you got your fucking neck? +He's being a wazzock. +Bloody right you are. +A wazzock. +No I listen to the radio sometimes on it. +Pardon? +Listen to the radio on it. +Can't pick it up very well from here . +Oh fuck. +You are dead. +No er John's . +John. +No no no it's alright. +Right. +I'll go I'll go and see John. +Hang on, hang on. +I've got to go and see him anyway. +Oi +Yes ? +Yeah I think we're going to have to retract that to be honest. +Get the right layer +You might try and bring that one through there. +No I've just had it's not normally a problem with us, but the manufacturer they're using,alright, is shit,and they'll tend to end up +It's better to put loads of bends in rather than er +Yeah. +Well it is for them. +Normally erm I wouldn't worry too much on the prototype, but this is probably gonna be the production +So each bi er board isn't individually checked then for shorts? +Yeah. +It's not? +It's not, no. +Well, they should be, but this company are shite. +Mm. +And you can't move that. +Well if we put er a kinky in here +Yeah, alright. +Yeah. +Trying to see where this one goes that I wanna move +It er it'd be handy actually if it generated an error when it did that. +Yeah. +Then you could just pinpoint them all +Arguably it's not it's not really a problem is it? +Not normally no. +Mm. +Mm. +He's such a fast worker +Been there before mate. +I take it all back. +Been there before. +Yeah, don't believe what your mates tell you, I know. +See that one could arguably Oops. +I like these white D R Cs, they're er +Er actually, er much as I hate to admit it, I think you could be right. +Well they stand out,bang. +As soon as something happens, woof you're there. +Oh god, what a cockup. +I've deleted +No. +It's best not to fuck around with these. +I find I've found that if you if you get it like that just, you know delete it. +No, the command Look. +I mean, if you did get one that wasn't forty five and you didn't see it, it wouldn't be a problem for the +manufacturer would it? +I mean er does it just tell it +Er +to draw a line from one coordinate to another? +Erm +The pen? +Does it tell it to draw a line from point to another Yeah. +Well forty five's slightly yes. +Yes, I think it does. +Cos on here you get you get like quanti quantization steps don't you. +If you don't +Yeah. +you get like a little ladder, +Yeah. +don't you, right? +But you don't actually see that ladder. +Nearly finished. +Yeah, okay. +Is it annoying you? +No. +Oh. +Well this this curve here's got s steps in it but it won't +Yeah. +be like that. +It l it looks curved. +If you look on this one. +Oh yeah. +It's pretty smooth. +No problem. +No problem, sir. +Oh, there's something wrong there. +Yeah, it's not on grid. +What's not on grid then? +No, actually, you want eh, you try it. +Alright, erase it. +No, don't move it. +It looks like that not on grid. +No no no no. +No. +Delete it. +Sorry? +follow the trace, +Yep. +Had that before. +It's weird innit? +Yep. +What else have we got? +That's why it'd be so nice to be able to w save the work area so when +Yeah. +you go back in, +That's right. +you know your grid and everything's all set as it was. +Especially on Monday mornings. +I find that incredible that you can't do that. +Oops. +I just turned them on. +Oh, dig it. +That's a bit close as well isn't it? +What that? +No that's fine. +It's alright is it? +Mm. +It's only if it goes in and you've got no angle +Yeah. +there +yeah. +outside yeah. +Mhm. +Look at that . +Well it's gotta be fairly close to that pin. +Probably doesn't make any difference. +Then it'll be it'll be even with the other one then won't it? +It's so different isn't it? +Yeah but it's got erm +Yeah but then you've gotta bend all those tracers haven't you? +I've put it there so that it'll look neat. +I don't see why not. +God Bedge, you are a pedantic bastard. +What's that? +Yeah I know but John's +anyway. +Go to help. +Hit the help and say page +Don't you wanna see if you can put page numbers +I don't think so. +I couldn't find anything for +I wouldn't have thought you'd wanted to, that was the thing. +I know, but +It's cos you're using it for an improper +You see the way it's done a trace there, sometimes it'll +Yeah. +it'll delete that for you. +Oh, it deleted +half of it. +just check +Yeah. +You can't transfer into any other. +Mm. +I tried to load it into erm Word and it completely screwed up. +You'll have to move that one +over here and that there. +That's got well you can move that and then you can probably move that there. +Well do it how you wanna do it, not how +I was gonna say, yeah. +It's always a problem. +Bedge is the worst one for that. +Yeah. +You wanna do it like this. +You don't wanna do it like that . +Oh that's weird. +I haven't seen that one before. +when he's not happy he comes and re redesigns it all doesn't he? +Yeah he does doesn't he? +Mm. +That's what I mean about this bloody thing, that it doesn't it straighten it. +I'm working with bloody amateurs. +Takes one to know one. +you we are. +Bastard . +No you ain't got the switched on. +boy. +You had it then. +Oh hang on +Delete it. +That's it. +there. +Er no. +Ain't too bad is it? +Oh dear . +Now did you get the the couplers the right way round on the erm ? +That's a innit? +Yeah. +I've dropped me pencil. +That's alright isn't it? +Yeah. +Well there's only sockets going in. +Sockets are bigger than the chips normally so +No you have to be really careful. +That'll go in there easy. +If it won't go in stick it in at an angle. +No if you if you buy a different make of , some of them stick out further and they foul it. +We've had this problem before. +Mm. +So it's best just to be er on the safe side. +Man of knowledge. +Ha! +What'd we do without this boy, eh Norm? +What? +I said what would we do without this boy? +A lot more than you do with me +probably, yeah. +. +Cos this week he's gonna be fucking useless. +He'll have a fucking racetrack on there. +He's round every single race circuit, now don't you worry. +Tell you what, +He's jobbie he's going whizzing round there. +Tell you what, it's bloody tempting to take a couple of days off work just to burn +I'm d I've never been this excited over a bike before. +You've got a new bike have you? +Yeah. +Oh. +Well I haven't yet, I haven't picked it up yet. +You been having wet dreams about it? +Yep. +Well he hasn't, I have. +Oh it's so quick to go between now isn't it? +Yeah. +Can you remember the old days? +Yeah you'd think, Oh I'll do +Eh? +that in a minute didn't you cos you'd think +What? +Can I have my seat back then ? +Mm. +What's wrong with this one? +You got something against this one? +Yeah. +Well it's short, that's +on it? +It's short, that's 's one. +off. +one. +Gonna say er here has +No. +You're not? +these the ones we use +Oh hang on, hang on, you went and didn't you, so we need to +Done all that. +While you've been fart-arsing around around the labs +Ah. +somewhere I've done it all. +I had to go and er see someone +Fucking hell. +Erm how do you do it without redoing the thing? +Do you just move +Now there's a reason why I've got this view up at the moment, alright. +Don't tap the screen, you'll scratch it. +That's what he said to me on Friday +Right. +I'd've been inclined to do that thing on it. +Yeah. +speeded it up quite a bit. +Do what? +The thing. +Oh for redraws. +And then change it back afterwards. +Mm. +Right. +If you do hare whoops, area select, right, +Mhm. +you can pick it up can't you? +Cos you know where it wa where it is now you can just move it. +But the reason I've got this up is because when you do an area select it selects the board outline. +So if you if we go move +You can +Pick the other one up as well. +And then you put that down where you think is the right place and you get really pissed off cos it's moving really slowly and moving the board outline as well. +Yeah? +It picks up the board outline. +If you do an area select alright, it picks up the board outline as well, it selects the board outline. +Why? +It's just the way it does. +Cos +Cos it selects anything that it touches right and cos it's inside the board outline it thinks it's touching the board outline +Oh cos the board outline is a filled rectangle? +Yeah. +Ah right. +Right. +So that if you have this view up, you can see whether it's selected or not. +Right? +Oh I get it. +Yeah. +Let me show you let me show you again +So you then deselect that before you +Yeah what you do, you area select, right,okay, now if you watch the window it lights up right, +Yeah. +and then you go point select +and then click here, alright, in open space, and it +Yeah. +deselects the outline. +And you've also selected half of that chip. +Yeah. +And you just +Point select right? +Yeah. +And then you just move I've moved them two cos Yeah? +So you're happy. +Why can't you just +Ecstatic. +point select the er ? +Well yeah. +If you if you do +Well you can, but if it's been unbound then +Yeah. +it's just a load of lines. +Point select you've gotta pick that up, you gotta that up and you gotta pick that up. +Or you can select it and then say bind er and then deselect it and then pick it up and move it. +Yeah but what if you're really +good with your area select? +No look, look, look, no. +Area select right, whatever you do Right area select. +I'll try and pick up alright. +Really careful with it but you still pick the outline up cos it's in that area. +Thing is, it's alright to tell people but they have to s know for themselves to be sure. +Oh what? +You cannot do area select without selecting the broad outline. +Honest. +That's your project for the rest of the week, is to try and area select without picking the broad outline up . +I think if you clicked on it and unbound the outline I think you might avoid that. +No that won't select +Come here, let go. +Let's try something. +I think that whole lot got unbound +Well no cos they're all +when I when I I area s I +What happens is right +selected the whole board and I unbound it. +Yeah you select the whole board. +When you unbind it it just stops it from joining all the bits together. +You then have you would then have to go unbind on the chips to separate the chips again. +? +Yeah. +I reckon if you decompose the outline alright? +Mm. +Okay. +So that means if you picked a bit of the outline up now, pick a bit alright,I reckon if you do area select now select +Yeah you gotta select the outline then. +That's a +Right, I think you should get all this stuff written up into a file, a help file. +screen on here is there? +No. +pages. +Doesn't help you very much though, not on this. +Manual's behind you. +I never thought about that you know. +I mean I thought you'd be able to click onto move and hit F one say, and that'd give you a help screen saying to move something, click on it and move to where you want . +But you know that. +Yeah well it well it'd take up disk space unnecessarily +Mm. +wouldn't it? +Right, you put any text on the outside of the board? +No. +Haven't you got a file that you dumped down saying about ? +Well come on then. +Right. +That's what you're here for. +What we gotta do, we gotta +Got to earn your keep. +You're very keen on underscores aren't you? +Yeah, it makes it more readable. +. +Oh, what you that for? +It's got it now. +That's how the old systems used to be with everything didn't they? +Hey. +Change all that. +That that needs to be updated. +man, job for you. +He knows. +Was what you were telling him this morning, was it? +Yeah. +Aha. +No you're not supposed to put five in there. +No no no no no. +That's very Twenty four. +Splendid . +Okay. +Bob's your uncle. +Right. +Let's have a look at it. +Texts. +Yeah. +What's say? +Two . +Twenty four. +Now I just wanna Twenty four. +You haven't got a label on this +Thing is it remembers the text from the previous one so you can er just type it in. +It's lovely innit?. +Haven't innit. +Right You know you were talking about them deleting all er references? +Yeah. +Have you considered having holes in the ground and inside the board one on top of the other? +Why? +Well then you can put your reference in there and they can't er erase it. +hold it up to the light +put me on the inside. +Oh yeah. +There's no reason why we can't. +Yeah. +Well why don't we do that? +Well It's only +Yeah but you were moaning about them taking er all the detail off. +Yeah that's true, yeah. +There's nothing to stop me from putting it +You could put the in there as well. +Yeah. +So it'd be like +Yeah but what they do, they've got all the artwork, so all they do is they go over with a black pen on the artwork. +Oh. +. +It's true. +Oh th so they don't take the files and and them +No. +on a machine? +Oh. +Sometimes they do. +So they just shove some tape over it. +That's a bit off isn't it . +Oh dear. +Oh shit, hang on. +Thought I just called that Silk Screen didn't I? +Yeah I was gonna say, what you call it that for? +You just want Silk don't you ? +You what? +You just want Silk. +No. +two in there.. +Oh yeah. +. +Oh goodness. +make sure they get the layers all the way all the right way up, +Yeah. +and not transposed or anything. +Get this right in a minute. +Tut. +Shit. +I never get it in the right place. +Ah! +Ah! +What? +You had layer three down there and layer two up there. +Did I? +Oh fuck, +Yeah. +didn't I change it again? +No. +Oh and the bottom layer has to be mirrored doesn't it? +Yeah. +On the X or the Y? +Doesn't matter really. +Phew it's lucky I'm on the ball isn't it? +It is. +Ow. +Ow . +And I think, I'm not sure, I think it puts it back round the other way tut. +Shit Er two. +You've just done layer two haven't you? +I've just screwed something up there. +Blast. +Tut. +I hate +C P M +It's there again. +That time +It won't let me do c oh it's caps. +Control F seven, that what causes that Got it in caps. +Right, that's layer three. +Happy with that? +Mhm. +just need a text . +Don't you want the other one? +This is reverse text. +You want that one don't you? +Four. +Voila. +Ooh. +Tut. +Such a lovely machine. +Be a good little database this one +Yeah, since you rebooted these machines it's been okay. +Er +That's alright, I'll finish it off. +Erm template. +Yeah. +Okay. +I was gonna give it to Ian to take to college tonight, but he's not in so I can't, so I've gotta send it now but I can't address. +Lost it. +Ring her up. +Don't know her number. +Don't know her name. +All I know is her name's Barbara. +Which Barbara are you talking about? +Er is it the one that lived in Felixstowe? +Yeah she lives in Felixstowe, but I don't know what her surname is. +Have to go and see George and see if he's er if he's got her number somewhere. +I know I have to go down the college tonight . +Now what are you're going now what are you're going to do On your er way home er you can pop to the college give to the er caretaker give to this to tonight. +They do that. +She might +Felixstowe. +Felixstowe. +Oh, bloody hell. +What, you not doing any more? +Er if this i if we're talking the same +Oh hang on, hang on. +I might have left it here mightn't I? +If we're talking about the same one alright, I've got her address in Felixstowe. +Ah! +No? +No. +Just the Thing is we get so much crap through the post right, that er +No. +Erm If it the one living in Felixstowe, that is the one er alright? +Yeah. +I've got her address at home. +Is there a list of the erm the tutors in the handbook or anything? +No. +No. +The handbook is +It's what? +The handbook is for the whole +Whole course, yeah. +Er no, for the whole country. +Yeah, whole country, yeah. +Whole course. +Oh, bloody +It's not in your briefcase? +No I've looked. +It's not at home as far as I can see. +I've definitely got one cos I remember her sheet now as I was looking at it, but where it is I'm buggered if I know. +Is it not in your big one? +No. +er I believe you up on the er the level. +It's +Do you want one then? +Yeah. +Here,you can have, that reminds me I've gotta do that label haven't I? +No not the fucking label. +I want it for my two +Which one do you want? +Small one will do. +That one's got lines in it. +Squares as well. +Dunno why so keen on bloody squares. +Is this small one or a big one ? +They will do. +They will do. +Is that for erm ? +No anyone any +What a loan book? +Yeah any . +Oh. +What blood what washing machine you got at home? +Bosch. +Eh? +Bosch. +Bosch. +Tut. +Got this bloody Hotpoint. +Hotpoint. +You get crap machines and you get problems mate. +That's to be expected isn't it? +I usually have er the the German one before about five year but the fucking pump keep on fuck up every other two year. +So when the five year come up I've no longer insurance alright,er I so i c if I change the pump costs about two hundred so I s so I said +Is that because it's full of chalk or is it cos +No it's not That kind of machine is is the water is they they pump the bloody thing up so far,so your your washing machi your er blah blah bl your your clothes is so dry. +You what? +Your? +When your washing is when you've finished you you open the door, is literally er really dry. +You can't see any bloody water. +Yeah. +So that is why the pump got a lot of problem. +We have a brand new one five year erm insurance, part and labour everything two two year we notice the water's not pumping off fast enough so the water's dripping backwards. +Mm. +So we call a guy say oh yeah, he changing th the er the pump again. +He changing er er the the pump. +When we move in here, we get this guy come along to look at it, he say well this machine the er the Germans erm they've really the pump is th is really easy to go, and so I can change your pump for you but l in your washing machine washing machine. +I change the pump for you, but that is cost a lot of money. +I said Look, this bloody thing is five years old now, +Mhm. +so anything little something like changing the pump, you know I pay about two hundred pound plus his fucking labour. +Is not worth it. +I can buy a brand new one. +er I want to want to buy er er another German one, and then the poxy er spare part +Yeah but they're er so well made you sh shouldn't really need to have to change it very often. +Yeah but er and also what I found right, +Ah! +Yeah. +only reason I've got one of these bloody poxy Hotpoint because they can fit right underneath erm into my kitchen unit. +It doesn't stick out, so I can open the door. +It's not as deep as some others then you mean? +Yeah. +But all the German one is stuck out about what, about inch, so you can't open one the the fucking si side door. +Chop a hole in the back. +In the wall at the back . +And that is a fucking erm the a h a hun a thousand spin. +So what?the poxy dry but you can if you squeeze it you can get er some water out. +Mm. +They only give you one year labour. +Well they never make things er bombproof do they? +Cos if your washing machine machine lasts for thirty years they'd go out of business wouldn't they ? +Yeah but they +Consumer society, you see? +Yeah but the the reason I look at the the poxy Hotpoint because they say well, they guarantee their part for five years, alright? +Mhm. +So I say ah, the the part must be fucking good If they last five year I'm quite happy. +they last er for five years. +How long you had this thing then? +I just got it last year. +About a year ago, February last year,ni ninety one. +And it's conked out? +It's not co it's still working, but it's the you can see the the washing is not as dry as it was before. +Ah. +So it hasn't actually failed, it's just not up to scratch. +It's not functioning properly. +Yeah but surely that comes under the warranty then. +If it's not doing its job that it's intended to do. +Yeah but they only guarantee what if part is failure, if the the guy come to look at it they still charge you labour. +Oh. +Oh. +They still charge you labour. +So the parts are free but the labour's a hundred +pound an hour. +I don't know how much the fucking labour is they they charge. +Bloody hell. +labour. +And the poxy +Well can't you fix it yourself? +Just take the back off and and you've only got to undo a couple of clips and take the pump off. +Yeah I know but er if the pump er +You're just idle. +if the fucking pump's gone, what the hell am I gonna do? +I'm not buy a pump. +No, you get, well, do you have to have it serviced to get the the free part then? +No, you don't have to. +But if er if you +Do they only give you free parts under warranty if it's serviced with a ? +Yeah. +It's a rip-off isn't it? +You don't expect you say look, my pump is gone, give me a new pump +Well, yeah I do. +It's a +No. +part. +And they say how can you prove it is the bloody pump is gone? +Well you bl slam it on the counter and say bloody you know, look in there it's got crap in it, it's not working. +I mean I've opened the washing machine up I mean literally you can't see fuck all So fucking big job to +Mm. +what what else? +Looks like you've got pig in a poke mate. +I say no I think I've got a how er how much for a labourer. +You've got a water softener as well haven't you? +Yeah. +Mm. +But the poxy +So the pump's working but not works properly. +I think so yeah, but I mean +So why can't you take the part Is it all a sealed unit that you can't get the pump apart? +I don't know. +I mean I +Mm. +If it was me I'd just take the bloody thing out and have a look at it. +Yeah but fucking open it up kids will be coming +Lock them in the other room. +No I try to er to do the erm I clean my erm the w er cooker hob. +hob right the grease And I try for I cleaned everything up, +Mm. +I put back in and er nothing +So have you make this Barbara ? +Barbara is it or something like that? +Is that her name? +Dunno what's her name is. +Barba +She phoned me up at home on a Sunday, asking +Yeah. +if I was gonna come down to college, +Sounds like her then. +and I said erm No. +Sounds like Oh fuck she when when er when I evening on er this early this year, +Mm. +and she say she not go any more student. +Because she she go somewhere , she don't want to any more er s er stud +Did you make that mess there? +No. +Who made that mess? +I don't bloody know. +We'll have to get a camera on that tea point to see who's making the mess. +I water I usually to clean the bloody thing +In my old group, they just took it upon themselves to clean it every now and again. +You won't find +Trouble is with this group, nobody gives a fuck. +They just sort of +You won't find If er I'd myself, I would fucking clean it. +I use the bloody table and wipe it off. +But you won't find anyone in this group. +Erm you used to be able, this tea point in the office right, you saw it the fucking on +Mm. +on top of the filing cabinet. +And Martin keep fucking on and on, and one day she come in here,and she said why don't you clean ? +Er he had a So he she and going on and on, nothing to do with me, I +to me. +And I said look,nothing to do with me, it's their office right? +Mm. +They had to keep their eye over, keep tidy. +Why should clean their their mess? +You tell me. +you clean their mess. +Why was she sticking her nose in anyway? +I don't bloody know. +I mean she's she's every day I said Look,what it have to do with you? +I pay for it. +Alright? +Get in early there if you want +Yeah. +Mm. +It's not bloody +You get your own now anyway don't you? +And so I say like I mean No she's she get on the contract right? +I mean one one day we +Is her contract gonna be renewed then? +I don't know. +She s tells er s the people er talking to the +Yeah. +I think it is +Your job is reception and you just sit in there bone idle +Nail your arse to the seat. +Yeah. +And she go everywhere and er come down here and chat with er all these men so And also er you know when er Twin Peaks, Ruby. +Twin Peaks . +She usually goes upstairs right,an and +Yeah. +we had a hell of a urgent copy photocopier, and no-one can can do it so we went upstairs photocopy, it's very urgent, we want it we, want to give to our sponsor. +She said I can't. +She said I've got too many thing to do, it's not my job to do photocopying. +Stupid git. +And say look, if you say look, give to me and I'll do it for you. +So give to and she she she'd do it. +And she's the bloody C O. +She'd do it. +And contract couldn't do it. +Yeah. +Exactly. +So er she got I mean what? +To be honest I mean what er +Well what does she do? +She sits there and answers the telephone basically. +And and and our bloody +And comes and moans about her marriage. +Yeah, and when our fax s come It's really weird. +I used the fax machine alright. +S some poxy fax upstairs. +even some fucking urgent right. +Mm. +It's not she won't bring it down. +She brings it down when she's doing something else. +And er one day I went up there and er erm in there for for over two hours right, and who's the the P A er used to be er . +What's her name? +Oh erm Shirley. +No no, she also contract as well. +Erm What's her name. +Er Daphne. +Daphne. +Mm. +Yeah. +And she say er this this and you've been here er long time. +So I go oh yeah I mean they fucking mark it urgent,any person mark it urgent, say urgent right? +Mm. +Is not er if there's some for me I don't bloody care. +Well times I receive a fax I just keep going up there and bothering them until they say it's gone through. +And so but Justin So I just say look, if you're not going office right? +Mm. +So we know about it. +Is that why they've got a fax machine then? +they they +Mm. +Er a lot of time wh when when you get a fax er and they not deliver to us, half a day late or +The whole idea of erm a fax is to get the thing there quickly isn't it?if it's sort of sitting up on a desk for three days before they bring it down. +Oh! +Your fax has been here for about a week now, I'll bring it down for you . +Mm. +What's the problem? +Talking about faxes. +Oh. +Well don't u er don't use the fax machine use the one in the office. +What's the number for that one, anyway? +Er +What a memory. +Yeah. +, yeah. +Mm. +Mm. +Bloody catalogue. +I'll chuck in the bin. +Never know, you might have won something. +No. +Congratulations, you have won a holiday to Canada. +That'd be nice wouldn't it? +I have registered. +That doesn't matter. +They not deliver to you. +A mail catalogue is not +I know. +They just leave them in the post room don't they? +communal. +literally they said they stop your your personal mail. +Mm. +I mean if you +It's only cos they're too idle to cart these catalogues and things about. +They don't care. +When me and Frank were in the in Lo in London we got about fifty of these bloody E mail catalogue come in the same address. +The trouble is, people register for er with them because they they're offering +No. +a free pen or something like that. +No they're not. +They do sometimes. +They give them a some of the information. +They must be able to buy a database of the people's name +Mm. +a lot of the the junk mail. +Mailsort. +Mm. +Yeah the amount of crap I get through the place you wouldn't believe it. +All different titles. +Doctor and erm er Head of Research and er things like that you know? +They're just guessing. +junk mail. +Oh yeah. +P C magazines and stuff. +Oh shit . +How am I gonna get her bloody number then? +If I sent that today it'd be there Wednesday morning wouldn't it? +If you sent tomorrow still be there. +If I put first class on here. +Fuck . +So where's Ian ? +He's on leave. +What for two days? +The only day I actually wanna see him and the bastard's on leave. +What, today only? +As far as I know, yeah. +Oh, how did I do that?. +you can You can reach her. +You say look I'm student, right,I lost the th address of the er whom to send to and I've got an assessment to send in but I don't know how the hell I'm gonna send it on. +So can you er give me the details? +I'm sure George has got it actually. +Oh, bloody hell . +It's just one little slip of paper in an envelope, and they always send it separately. +They never send it with the +No, they send it in a bloody big one. +With everything. +Well they didn't this year. +They do. +It came in a small erm small envelope. +It did. +Cos I remember, I remember picking it up and reading it, I was out in the garden at the time. +They send about half this size. +Always they do. +That's A four. +Half the size. +paper is A four, you fold it into erm in there they got er c three or four paper as well, they tell you about all these er tutorials. +Yeah. +Everything in it. +The the day of your tutorial, your tutorial's name, +Ring him up. +Ow! +Give him a tinkle. +Tut. +Time does the mail go from here? +Mm? +What time does the mail go from here? +From here? +Mm. +About three o'clock. +I think the erm the the post'll come about four o'clock I think. +It should be by four o'clock is collect every single mail on-site,sort it all out, internal or external. +Mm. +I know er the if you go there before four o'clock But usually they er they +Ah! +Tut. +Well I'd better get on with my berno binomial theorem then. +I need a new pair of jeans. +Look at the state of these things. +all frayed, pockets are frayed +So did the train come on time? +On Friday? +Yeah, yeah, she was there. +I was actually late getting there. +So much traffic on a Friday afternoon. +Very good. +the bypass. +Did go on the bypass. +That's where the problem was. +Yeah, but if you go on the +Ha! +That's what I'm after. +Nothing really at the moment. +Got any stamps? +Er yes. +First class? +Yeah. +. +Can I er have just one? +. +That's great,thank you . +What's in there? +It's a tape, innit?. +Of what? +Of whom?what do you like? +Oh er +Ah! +Oh it's just radio at the moment. +Oh. +Ah! +Hi. +That wasn't that wasn't +meant do that. +Wasn't you? +Oh okay. +I believe you. +I'll come back in a minute. +Yeah. +Erm +Er where's Georgie? +Erm I thought he was up in not. +No he not in there now, boy. +He may have gone swimming. +swim really. +And he's still got all that weight on him. +Wouldn't know about that. +Erm yeah. +He could have gone swimming , +Where's Phil? +other than that Phil is over at lunch. +He'll be back soon. +Okay. +I'll pop back later. +Not still washing that cup up ? +Oh you've finished now. +Oh no, I'm tea. +Got some change ? +Er Er depends what for. +Well I've got a quid, so a stamp's twenty four isn't it? +Is it? +Is a first class twenty four? +Isn't it? +Daphne. +Mm? +How much is a first class stamp? +Twenty two, twenty three, something like that. +it's not gone up to twenty four has it? +I don't know though. +books of stamps +Do you know what a first class stamp is? +it is about twenty four. +It is about that. +No I don't. +It is twenty four. +first class. +I think it is twenty four. +I charged John twenty two. +Go back and get the cash then. +I'll have three first class stamps off you then Carol. +I've got a yellow card for +The thing is they don't put the value on any more do they? +No. +No. +Which +That's so they can print thousands of them +Which there again is quite good +Yeah. +because if you've bought first class stamps and you've got a load of them then you haven't got to go and buy those tuppeny P pieces to put on. +when they go up. +Yes. +first class +Yeah that's right. +Erm brilliant. +Thank you. +Don't lick it. +I'm not licking it. +Ooh I know you've been licking it. +Thank you. +Thanks very much. +Cheers. +Black covers on this +Yeah, they ah, they +We, I stapled them all la ages and ages ago and they still came off. +They're just crappy chairs! +Yes. +Well they were okay and then just suddenly started doing it. +Runcologist. +Ha! +Let's go in here, see I've locked the screen up so we're laughing. +Makes a change! +Feet off the table! +Do you have to say that ? +Oh you don't put them like that! +Oh yeah. +Put the new hole sizes on the drilling table? +No, that's what I'm saying, true I just did that used to be a rotary. +Ah, have you lost all the graphics that went around it. +Doo doo doo doo doo doo +Yeah. +It's there. +Where's the big table and that on the edge then? +That's in er in here. +Oh L? +I'd a proper I had a proper drill, oh you're talking about the new ones? +No. +There was three. +Oh that's right. +Yes. +That's why I was a bit confused +Oh they should be a drill non-plated, and a drill plated. +Yeah, we got P T H,through hole +That's cool! +non-plated and drill. +And exactly what I would of said. +What's drill ? +I dunno. +How do you know? +You haven't even thought about it screw head! +Anyway, what can I do? +He always makes out that it's his idea doesn't he? +Oh yeah, I knew that would work! +! +What a bastard! +But you got a red light there look! +You go on regardless and there's a bloody red light down there! +Yeah, well I I tried to get rid of it but it wouldn't go. +Urgh, don't spit on my cheek! +I'm not actually! +Erm going to graphic centre. +That's right. +There's no room for my share. +Put it away! +What? +Chaps, integrity them toge +Anyone? +Did you get your ? +Sorry? +And have a game of . +Know what I caught on Wednesday night do you?! +Family. +I got . +Yeah, wouldn't be so bad . +Right, solder resist. +Yeah, it was true wasn't it? +Oh sorry! +That's the one I want ! +I'm only winding you up! +Na oh yeah go, go through the solder resist go on. +Oh , make your bloody mind up boy! +There. +Right. +Re-draw. +Right when those blue ridge tooling holds up you wanna put a big resistor down there. +Two length holes. +Oh, the things! +I thought that would generate it automatically. +Well it wouldn't. +No. +Why not? +I thought it was from generator to a pipe, couple of hand brakes in there. +Give it here! +It's it's easy to . +Sure , yeah. +Now, now watch the burn. +I know. +Come on! +I know! +I will clear it up post haste. +We need some coffee mats here. +I think I'll +No you +pick up a load of beer mats. +you're not supposed to have drinks in the cad area. +No but I I let you guys bring in drinks because most this system on you wouldn't have a +You're not like old er misery guts then? +Misery ! +Misery ! +Alright, control F seven Ah that fucking, oh he, oh he's ball right into a decent size at last! +Yeah, I changed it. +No, this is still crap! +No it's not! +It is! +It's great! +Had it on A columns that's why two columns are missing ! +Great innit! +Great! +Aha. +Er, you need a solder resist around there why? +Because, if you'd done right, the solder resist they try and put it all over there and it's gonna screw up their manufacturing and stuff. +You don't want it to cover the old hole! +Right? +Screws on the . +Yeah, cos, the solder just li links into the big hole and you don't want it cos it can screw up the size of the hole then. +You don't wanna do it. +Have you got anything on that? +But +Well I don't know a lo , a great deal about manufacturing which is a bad thing really. +I need to know the order in which it was on. +Right. +So you do a little circly and you have it full Oh that's clever innit! +See that? +Yeah. +With the to two combined to make it visible. +And at the front. +Oh we'll just stick it twenty five parallel, alright? +Get it . +Okay? +Good! +It's the wrong colour! +Don't be stupid! +Why's that the wrong colour? +Well you jus +I just don't siam that's all! +Oh no! +Can you hear what this boy's saying Norman? +Yep! +What a waste of space! +Oh oh, God! +I think I can be excused this week cos thi , the wife's away. +What with no sex? +I used to think through it! +I had sex this morning, it was quite good! +The conventional missionary ! +by now. +What's the number? +Phone up enquiries will you? +Ah dear! +Right. +I suppose you have time in the mornings ! +I don't. +That's one of +Do you walk the dog as well? +reasons I was late this morning, but apart from bloody erm +Oh course you're on flexitime aren't you? +I wanna be on flexitime. +I might come in I hate +You could +having to get out of bed when I'm knackered! +You could always negotiate it with me Mark. +I'll certainly say no, but there you go! +Never mind ay! +I'll have to negotiate with Frank don't I? +Not you! +You're just a small boy! +No you sho , no, you should do it through me. +No you should do it through Tony actually. +Oh I'll go through you then. +, can I go on flexitime? +Well no, I mean, if you've gotta come in +I don't see why PA's can't have +if you wanna come in at nine +flexitime? +Why, what annoys me out here right, every other ooh a lot of the areas are on bloody nine day fortnight. +I mean that'd be brilliant! +That'd be so good! +So you'd work a nine day stretch and then have a load of days off? +Yeah. +Now we have every other Friday off. +It's brilliant! +You can move it ! +No I didn't realise I wasn't sure whether it was there or not. +So would I have to work longer then? +During the week, sort of till ha +Yeah. +till five? +Well of course they do! +Still have to do thirty seven +Yeah. +half hours a week! +So you work till five instead of half four and then he knocks off. +Yeah something like that. +Mm. +And he knoc , and you don't work the Friday. +Oh that's good! +It's brilliant! +And then if you have to work the Friday it's overtime! +isn't he? +Oh fuck off you! +Everybody's doing it! +So can I do it? +It's at the back and none at the front. +Yeah that's right. +It's . +Right it's solder resistant. +Mm. +Mm? +What with you and Norman together! +You have a nice hairstyle between you! +Have you seen Colin's? +Ye , actually yes,that's I wouldn't +Fucking hell, his, his Mrs did it he said! +and be , and I'm not surprised, looking at it! +Good Lord! +Is is he in here? +No, he's not. +Oh shit! +I was hoping he was gonna be in there. +He's down there. +It's brilliant! +Yeah, I thought he had something strange about him this morning. +I walk in this morning, I'm ever so sorry Colin! +And it took about two minutes to twig what I was going on about ! +Oh! +What are you playing with there Norm? +The guy's always playing! +He's changing, changing some every bloody minute I think, he must change! +He's got +Well he just have to cycle round, every time you log out his go in a different . +Yeah, I mean, he he tries to stay on random. +No, I wanted I wanted to scrap er a pretty one then. +Right. +Ah, I've just remembered something else I've gotta do. +Ooh God ! +You're gonna have to move erm those three chips. +Shall I just crack it then? +I can't get the stroke right. +I think you're a dick lover anyway! +You liar! +What are you, well it wasn't you actually. +Everybody laughs at Justin. +I'm not surprised. +Gets sma smashing in the fucking Mercs oh +Eighty thou is two millimetre isn't it? +He's a slaphead Norman! +Is eighty thou , two millimetre, Norm? +What? +Is eighty +Norm +thou , two millimetre? +Yeah, forty thou , one mill . +How come you've got curly hair? +That's looking really curly today. +Don't! +I I can take +That's cos his head's a scrotum, that's not actually a hair! +He's got loads of pubes growing out ! +Yeah, it's a bugger if I'm er hanging round any velcro! +What are warnings then Mark? +Er problem with the . +No, it's not found. +Anyway, shall I go and get the bread? +Well only if you're sure you've got everything off there then? +Er . +That's . +Bollocks. +Oh hang on. +Plated no. +Heads Were those non-plated? +Did you find they was non-plateds? +Yeah. +You did? +Definitely? +They were non-copper. +No, non-plated's. +Non-plated through when you made the shape. +If you're sure. +Find out in a minute. +Yeah but I made them non-copper so they wouldn't . +No, that's the pads, non-copper. +How's your pad? +Mm. +I can't remember to be honest. +Have to check it. +Should be a sixteen one. +Ah no wait a minute, it's thick, thick, thick. +Ah ! +eighty +and that one's fifty +You what? +I'm just trying to move passed that I'm making a couple of holes bigger. +These ones. +Oh right. +You happy now Norm? +Yeah, I like that one. +Well you're a bloody fine one to talk fi , fiddling the back, down there for yonks +Oh it's only Friday afternoon, I was waiting for Doris to phone me weren't I? +Excuse me. +Did you, did hear Bedge what he actually did on Friday? +No. +Phones him up two minutes past three I'm gonna try and get the three o'clock train! +From London! +So said +Brilliant! +oh I don't think you will. +Couple of minutes later she phones back, er I missed that one I'll have to get , or the next one! +What a corker. +What a corker. +Stupid daft woman! +You wait till I see her! +I'll say to her any yeah oh yeah, if we if we get to the station at five past three do you reckon we'll get the three o'clock train? +Yeah, that's a cracker that! +Just think get like that +I said I said she's bound to phone back in a minute! +And no doubt, the phone rang. +What's the name of the shape? +What shape? +P L C C's +Ha? +With P L C C's. +Oh P L C C erm +I'll keep going next alright? +with hole, I think. +Don't . +Yeah ! +Ha! +That's alright, +But +Oh, I'm lo , I'm looking for parts here I think. +A O, of . +Or is it one eight six on there? +The ay? +Next one down. +Are we using the one eight eight? +No , no, no, no. +Oh we use the one eight six on it. +Yeah. +How you doing? +With hole! +I thought that was really descriptive. +Oh shit! +Cos these are exactly the same except with a well and two erm those four holes missing. +Oh this you'll be there all day! +Okay, alright. +Bing +Plated no spot on! +I'm impressed! +What about the forty eight one? +I take it it's P L C C +With a hole, yeah. +Ah, wrong one! +Forty eight, forty eight. +No it's forty four. +No it isn't. +That's okay innit? +Excellent stuff! +Splendid! +Right. +So we had to get th the drill table sorted out. +That cancels yeah but today, I think don't we? +Oh! +What's next after this then? +Well I've just gotta make sure the drill template's on. +Oh well, once this is done. +Well we're both back onto erm the wotsit +The piston. +Oh that's quite good. +That's funny, old erm Colin came in and you know that one with a the sort of screen save and the the screen shot of that three- D +Yeah. +I can't really manage to get a a . +I said have a go with it. +He sort of think, you know with the balloons on it, so he go he got the mouth part and urgh! +Mr gullible! +Right, if we do a whole list. +Remember VMMT. +VM, MT? +You what? +Have a to the whole list. +Those are plated through holes. +Ah! +Fifty, sixty? +Ah that's why, fifty doesn't . +VMMT. +V M M T V, I reckon. +V or B. +Fifty. +Anyway se these are always named upper case so it will always be . +Yeah, but you've already got B there for sixty. +Oh yeah! +V W or something. +lum lum la la lum la la lum lum mm . +Oh I know, ah! +Just type in a minute and I'll +Why's that bill still +Marking information . +Yeah, Bill's got a an amber light. +That's right, I can't see anything in +Why's that? +Cos it's not quite built? +Yeah. +What's X? +Right that one's got the table on instead of the graphics. +I don't wanna lose that table, cos I don't want to have to write it all again. +Yeah? +Mhm. +So by +That's a sod that isn't it? +You do a re-drawing, it disappears ! +I hate people who do that! +What? +These chair covers! +It's cos they don't sit in the seat properly, they slouch in them! +Make it drag! +Ah er what's it like living with you then? +Great! +Couldn't be better! +It's alright for me! +Your poor Mrs! +No, she's alright. +It's an area area select. +Right. +Okay, what we can do, if we graphics we bind that alright? +Okay, then we do points of reference and then we do graphics name symbol, yeah? +Aha. +Yeah I did this +Well the +before. +You can save it to er erm +Simple table. +simple table. +Oops! +Right? +Enough? +Then you can pull it in. +Yeah. +Okay, so select a it's a lovely machine! +. +'s using the ace. ace for er PC's. +And it's quite quick. +Quite good! +Oh you can get it off a pc can you? +Yeah, you can, it's only a a demo thing at the moment. +It's quite good! +Right! +Doo do doo . +Is it all exactly the same functions then? +Same layout as this. +Slightly different. +Might be a bit different. +It's bit of a migration, it can hardly turn its head. +What about erm thing? +What's it run on V G A? +Yeah, it will run on V G A. +Run on E G A as well I think. +Can't be a very good graphics one. +Well I run it on mine next. +Can't u , can't use the right. +Is it the demo you got from Datatrip +Yeah. +Right,holeless VMMT V M M T WS. +Oh yeah. +Seven inch. +No.. +This to come out. +Right, that's all the non-plated ones isn't it? +Alright. +Shit! +What is doing now? +Yeah,. +The er sump has gone in it. +Right that's the the P T H +You're not opening into the file are you? +No I don't need to. +Don't . +And you +Old with thirty fi , thirty five mill +Bit like mine is it? +Possibly! +Can't remember +It +having a thirty five mill +it might be in the centre of the P L C C's. +No, they're big holes ain't they? +Huge! +See they're huge! +Well no, there's a little pad there. +A pad, it's it's not a pad it's an actual hole. +Oh! +Hole with diameter thirty five mill . +Thirty five mill ? +I do , it doesn't ring a bell actually. +Thirty five mill , at all. +Norm ! +Yes? +What uses a thirty five thou hole? +Erm +Crystals? +Crystals is about the only thing that would use it. +Can't imagine what's changed it. +Why do you have so many different hole sizes? +I mean surely you could have a point eight for crystal and still solder ? +No, well +Or is both sided, soldered? +The flow soldered if the hole's too big cos the crystals is thinner. +Yeah. +It wicks up through. +Also erm +It's no problem but +polystyrene plastics are are very good crystals. +Yeah. +We're not using polystyrene anyway. +There's a thirty three in there. +Ah, ha ha ! +Uses thirty five mill ? +Wah ah oh oh oh +Oh. +. +It's definitely a thirty five. +. +What would use thirty three Norm ? +Yeah, well it's small.. +Yeah. +Erm +He's trying to think. +Must have updated the crystals then? +It's +I think I might have erm used thirty three on the crystals and now the shape's been updated. +And there's nothing particularly unusual on that. +Crystal's would be erm one eighths +And the veers What about the veers? +They're quite small. +These are twenty fives aren't they? +These are twenty , yeah. +These are twenty, yeah. +Thirty threes, thirty seven forty six, so well thirty threes must be the crystals, thirty fives I don't see what they're gonna be. +er sha +What letter are you er +Oh I'm not worried about the letters at the moment. +Just got it sitting in +Well +it's never had that before, I'm just trying to work out where it's come from. +Can't you do a a select? +Name select or something and pick out a one of the pads with that hole? +No, you can't, there's erm I see. +You haven't got anything unusual that's gonna be small. +No. +Oh I've got a thirth three hold iron or on the er crystals look. +Yeah, alright. +Tha , that's probably a mistake in the past before we had all this changing. +Right. +I'll define +Cos now we've gone up to thirty fives, I'm pretty sure. +Just er +They're both the same footprint, those two +Sorry? +These two are the same footprint. +Yeah. +What about that one there? +Bedge? +Oh that's cute! +Oh ah +Who got that one? +Little one there. +I think they should all be er +I know what it could be! +I know what it is! +We know what it is. +Er +What a , what are Zener diodes called, shape? +Which ones? +Jus Just a normal Zener. +It's not on there but +Oh erm +It's on the back. +R four, no D D three over four sixty? +Is that a normal , a normal Zener one, Z is +is in some ways. +I think it uses the same footprint doesn't it? +Yeah. +Oh hang on, let's let's let's do it the easy way. +It's very quick. +Two, three and a so sixty that's good innit? +Whoops! +And si , six, six, six, six, six, six. +I bet you pound of thirty fives cos that's a new one machine. +That's a new component I put on there and that would be updated , yeah. +there. +That's what it is. +So all the thirty two's have gotta be changed to thirty fives. +Well , is it thirty three, or thirty five. +Thirty five rings a bell, erm . +Oh, find out . +I can't find an easy one can I? +I could look at the library can't I? +Yep. +Cos I know they're all up to date. +You know the check that went in? +Mhm. +Something vague with this split window innit in? +See if they're in the same file and two different bits two places on the file. +It's doing code and you need to change several entries or something. +Mm mm. +Just split your window. +Brilliant! +I'm not with you. +Well if you've got a big file right? +And you're changing all your currencies of a certain variable +Yeah. +you can have it at the top where you've changed it and then the window underneath you can scan it through the file again. +Alright? +Brilliant! +Nice though. +You pick them . +Can't you just do a find? +Can you +Find and replace. +wait five minutes? +Yeah, you probably can. +Cos I've got something to take over, you might as well take them over . +Can you find the ye , if is there any yellow pads about? +We've gone right out. +I'll pick up somewhere. +Er, yellow pads? +You know the you pull out the information. +So what were you up at lunchtime then? +Thirty seven is a different one altogether again isn't it Norm? +Hang on! +Make that the same +After you +call the same symbol alright? +I make it the same size okay? +I wouldn't of thought there's sod all difference between thirty three and thirty seven. +No. +Yeah, but you have to tell it. +I'm not ready Norm! +Cos it sees both of those holes in the data range. +Oh ya! +Hey, I saw this bird Norm +Yeah. +Yeah. +That Justin's trying to er +Pull pull. +but he says he isn't! +Don't laugh! +He's completely ignoring me now! +Now I've seen him interfering with the smoke alarm now! +Thought that was quite remarkable! +Oh you know that we were talking about +What she look like? +working here from the pub. +Dear oh dear oh dear! +Yeah. +Still soaring in he with that? +What a halibut ! +E any good for a titty wank +No, no good for a titty wank +No, totally bare! +A titty wank ! +We used to call it breast fucking but that's much nicer! +No, too +Tha , that's too descriptive. +titty wank +All calls for a +Titty wank +tea break and I like that, I like the er the phrasing. +Titty wank +Titty wank +Did you have a titty wank over the er weekend now your wife's back? +Ah! +No? +Not big enough mate! +No, nor is that, bloody right ! +What the tits or er +Well if it was if mine was small I'd be alright on mine. +Ah well! +Titty wank, I like that ! +It's one of the funniest things I've heard for Oh, minutes! +Micro-seconds! +Urgh, what a horrible colour! +Norman's got the bland taste again. +Yeah. +I didn't set this one, this is bloody he set +Oh that's +it up! +gross! +What? +Right. +Gross of public . +Expensive . +Yeah, get my posh car. +Do you know you could do this? +What? +Not edit within capitals. +Oh the software problem. +No I didn't. +I asked Daniel to leave. +Have they? +No. +No, no, no, leave the +room. +Leave the room. +It's alright bu get off your high horse! +I was just gonna say why? +No. +Well +I don't know. +I reckon that Daniel's . +Might be. +Has he had a bad appraisal then or something. +I dunno. +Dunno. +Kevin had one. +Well Kevin's a wanker! +His . +Erm +Well give us a shape to look at then. +Can't I get. +Sorry? +Come on! +How long you gonna be? +Not long. +Z three over four sixty? +Good grief! +On the score sixty. +Mm, mm mm . +That's the way . +That's what we call innit? +What's five thou +Thirty five thou for the lo +Alright. +you take three under sixty. +What about fourteen dip and under school osc +That's a nice one! +I think that was drill under +Was any +school table. +Are you sure? +You sure Bedge? +Drill un under school osc +What the first bit of that cos the thing in your mouth. +Fourteen dip under school osc Graphics are crap, look at tha , look at that! +Oh! +Gone completely ! +It's not overwriting it is it? +Yes! +Right. +Have you got nothing else to do apart from squeaking chair? +Hasn't bought the bloody letters with it! +I'm here,. +Dash +Thirty three, forty six. +fetch ! +Have you +Bedge! +erased that layer? +Yeah it's all gone now. +Sorry I'll get the old +Thirty three +paint pot. +Thirty three is the oscillator +Right it should be thirty three. +Well that's what they use in the library so that's a I'll make sure the library ones are correct on mine, alright? +What are the other oscillators? +Thirty five is point nine. +That should be point eight five. +Should it? +Yeah. +So it should be dip , thirty three and +Yeah. +What's the other oscillator, that one that's you lie flat +An eighteen osc or something. +It's H C eighteen. +H C eighteen. +Alright, we're gonna have to do a well hard copy here. +Oh shit! +That means we're gonna have to rebuild that bloody +Hang on! +Zoom in. +No I think the I think they're there. +You might find they're with the scrap. +Okay. +It's it's no problem. +It's found it all has it? +Yeah, should of picked it all up. +That's right. +I gotta rebuild this anyway. +What a bugger! +Yeah, the erm small oscillator is a thirty three as well. +Alright. +Ah ha ! +So there is a difference between thirty three and thirty five? +Correct! +Looks that way. +I'm gonna delete this one. +Although saying that one we sent out to erm +Yeah. +they actually drew the wall at point nine +Or point nine five. +oscillated everything. +The pads are big enough to take it but when we a , you know that, when we had that problem about the er what's a name coming up? +Yeah. +The solder coming up, we decided we'd go down to what size it should be. +Yeah. +Thing is the th +The bulk of the drawing rules were such that you got the pin diameter plus you know, their size pads and all this and stuff. +Yeah. +So we basically done to what that is although they said they were just gonna dri , drill a one point nine five +Mm. +and sort of run it from there. +Well it's a strange fault cos +Very. +Very! +They make a big thing about some things, and then some we're gonna drill all that point nine five anyway! +Yeah. +They made a big thing about us sort of not using one millimetre holes using +Mm. +point nine five holes, cos that's standard size +But that's that's sod all! +Yeah. +We wouldn't have used one mill on the sc for out side counters and letters they said oh no, they were gonna use wha you know er what's a name? +Mr +Point nine five. +Yeah. +Mr was well upset! +Phylis? +Well upset! +Why? +They're gonna charge him for casting his . +Well course they are! +He's dying though! +Poor chap! +If he was get, get in off his death bed and in. +Serves him +And when +right! +He's got +When he did +plenty of money anyway! +wondered if I should have his place. +When is it? +Er, tonight. +I can't play tonight. +I'm already playing tonight. +Yeah. +John might. +Four point three O. +Four point three O, okay. +Are the printers on? +Think so. +Ah ga ga ga +Yeah, they should be! +Is it, ain't worth trying him? +I can't think of anyone else. +Have to +Okay. +. +What about the other one Mr ? +if he's genuinely ill, know what I mean? +Yeah. +Did he what badly? +Got flu or something. +Yeah. +Sounds well rough! +He reckons he might be in tomorrow. +Yeah. +well rough! +Right, I better go and ring and cancel my night then. +one of those favours . +Ta! +Er well I gotta phone someone up. +ello, yeah I just er wondering can I court I booked for Wednesday night please? +This Thursday? +Come on! +Erm +What? +Thanks then, thanks a lot then! +Okay bye! +No, I'm not going! +Might have got away then! +Don't upset Norm! +Swap swap it with a duff one! +That's a duff one innit? +There you go. +Right. +What were you wanting to do? +Waiting for that joist out the back. +Ah! +Right erm oh +No, not that! +Cos I've done, I've done all that! +Clicked that. +You done that? +That's quick . +No adaptor. +Take this then. +It's quicker. +Well usually cos I got my feet up on a bench and I can't reach keyboard so +I had a fishy sandwich earlier and I feel . +I'm not surprised! +Especially at the exhaust end . +smell it? +Yeah. +Basically! +You bastard! +Er +Keep . +What's the matter with it? +Has it got a hole in it? +Now I've well I'm trading it in on Saturday night. +Yeah. +well I was gonna bring it in this morning that's why I was late this morning. +I went up the road and it went bang and blew a out the back! +And fortunately the end cap was like a , so I went and then I stuck some wadding in just to wire in that head lamp. +Help with some erm +propylene. +Mm! +alright +Malgood +is it? +or . +Right, I'll have to try it. +Bad as that . +Sticks in meant to blow it out. +It's not cracking now. +What's in there at the moment? +Well they normally just packed with some sort of wadding, I dunno. +Probably asbestos or something. +Got a , hell of a hot temperature +in an exhaust. +Er yeah. +Oh just buy a couple of bananas and apple ! +! +It'll fill the end up! +More like the holes in. +Wha what are we on? +Drill. +Yeah. +On the score. +No +Not plated. +Or P T H doesn't really matter which one you got. +Okay. +So then straighten that end tail. +Drill table. +What the one that should of been here? +Yeah. +Just extract it now then. +Oh I see, right. +Yeah it's got some er,. +Course it is. +She'll be disappointed! +Hello Phil! +Alright? +Come and join the party! +What, is there a party going? +Yeah. +Oh I'd love to! +Well there was, the girls have gone. +We're all cas over here, you'll fit in alright. +Not worried about age groups are we? +Phil, casual . +Er blo lo lo lo lo +Oh I've been in the . +Me and Andy drove into the car park at the Cambridge Exchange on Friday +, yeah. +and guess who was driving out? +Guess who was driving out? +Dunno. +And we were driving in. +Carl . +Carly ! +Small world eh? +Yeah! +Exactly the same minute! +We if we'd been a minute later we'd have +missed him! +A minute earlier he never would have stopped! +Unbelievable! +He was on crutches. +Is he? +Yeah, cos you know he broke his leg don't you? +Yeah, I heard he'd broken his leg. +It's it's the en , the end of his football career. +Is that jumping off the er wardrobe is it? +No, playing football. +Got the . +If you look in there now right you got a little +Yeah there was somebody doing that. +Yeah. +Like a . +That's right, and she was following the . +Couldn't bloody steal that one! +With all the names on coming round here. +I assume in some ways +oi ! +Bars of text now +Who? +don't we? +Yeah. +We got letter +What does he want? +You put the letter in. +No! +And we got, hah! +Now what's she done? +I don't know. +Text. +These are the +ello! +Hi! +Erm +Click. +off move +Mm. +Ahh ah ah! +and then go re-draw +Oh yes, yes! +and then do a +This has always been iffy this graphics editor! +Here we go! +It's not +with it +No, no, it doesn't work to the same standards does it? +Here we go! +Fix so you want to convert M to millimetres? +I go in with the old one as well, right? +Here? +Okay. +Be writing all the letters by here. +In here. +Oh right! +Oh bloody hell ! +You said I wouldn't have to do this! +I had to add a bit on the bottom here Bedge. +Sorry? +Get stuffed! +Yeah! +I help you. +Erm . +by any chance Bedge? +There you are then. +Alright? +Clear line is it? +Bedge! +Smack him! +Here we go Terry. +Alright? +Feel much better now. +Why? +I just thrown something at the erm +Oh I see. +Right! +He can be troublesome can't he? +Now where are we? +Mm mm . +Okay. +Okay. +The hole sizes. +It's nought point five. +Ooh I've ! +Mm. +Right er point five. +Plated? +Yep. +And +Ought point eight five. +Why does it have to be highlighted now ? +Yeah, I dunno why. +Pain in the arse innit! +And it's nought point O one. +Right. +nought point nine five. +Point one O five on the bloody silk se , er the painting through can't be that good. +One? +Yeah, point zero. +Yes. +is one point O three. +Have you been crawling in here Bedge? +He crawled in here by himself! +a worm! +Fucking right! +It's unbelievable! +He has been playing with it. +Mm. +Yeah. +I hate you lot! +It's lovely! +Bloody good I'd say! +That's fifty quid that you owe me +I can take it! +One po , one point three L's on here. +Six point eight. +No,. +Right, where's K? +Wonder if K's got it +K's thick! +up there now. +K's thick. +K, probably doesn't exist now. +Ah ah! +Leave it on there. +L +Can't see any other K's on there. +No,lea leave it in. +Do the whole list again. +Right? +L? +Well L is +Non-plated. +Yep. +As it is, it's three point eight. +Did I say two point eight. +Yeah. +L, three point eight. +Yeah, but I mean were they all on the ? +Well you wouldn't hold twenty one of these. +Or one of these. +T's +Er +Er sixty. +They'll probably be old ones. +They're probably in there. +In the cellar. +OMT's again. +Where's the board gone? +It's round here. +I still +don't know what he's doing, he's probably got a or something. +No, they're +Yeah. +Two point fives. +It's under there the crystal. +The regulator. +L, yeah, it could do. +It's no longer there. +Yeah, that's bigger than one point three though isn't it? +No. +Yeah, that is a huge space three points. +Oh two point eight this is. +Oh sorry, did I say two point eight? +Yeah. +Yeah. +We're looking for +Yes that's what it is. +Yeah, but let's not use any more. +Well, what we'll do we we'll fill these out right and then we'll do a plot info then we gotta find out what actually he has used. +Oh God! +No, gotta cancel , go on! +Hang on, let me save this first. +So +Cos what it does, it remembers tools tool holes that used to be on there. +It's a bit of a pain! +No point in saving it. +It's lovely doubly Five foot. +Just write it on a bit, bit of paper. +On there. +Haven't got any little cards have you? +Not green ones, no. +Oh that's true. +If you were ni is there cakes up there? +No, the guy was the just filling the bar one up. +What, not even erm fruit cake? +No. +Okay. +Hand tools. +Sorry about this .. +Yeah well I'm used to it. +ah ah ah . +Ahh! +Might pop and see George in a minute. +What time's the post go? +Post? +If I post something to tomorrow morning that'll get there Wednesday morning won't it? +Should do. +Got a bloody assignment to give in and I forgot I lost the bloody address! +Shoo,! +Right, V. +Mm mm. +Now. +That's a photo plot. +Is there a plot info now? +. Now quick on erm grid. +Not possible to get the data in datus uphill? +the plot yet. +We want plot grill. +They go there. +Go there. +Right. +I see. +Brilliant! +Make your way up . +Right, and let's do one on the other one as well. +Right then. +Is something burning or what? +Can you smell it? +It smelt strange in here but I weren't sure if it was my fish paste sandwich or not! +Shit! +Just got a whiff as soon as you walked up then! +Second time I've been able to smell that. +That's the smell from a over there. +I reckon them wo working on them laser , the solder iron. +No, it smells like erm +Like your arse!. +Ooh! +It smells like erm what do you call that stuff? +Heat shrink sleeving. +Mm. +You've been fucking put this thing on and ! +You're not listening! +That's alright. +Now +Have a look at your terminal window, come on. +Click, click, clicking! +You clicking? +I'm picking. +I'm clicking! +I just put your on +Double click that's it. +Double click in the . +No, you're doing the morse or something! +Yes, you did! +You bloody fart! +. +I hate David! +Sh! +is not right. +Got it! +Okay, we got a sixty, an eighty, a hundred and ten three hundred and a fifty. +I'll remember that.. +Mm! +Hey Normska ! +Yeah? +this thing tell you a number of holes. +Yeah. +Just telling you. +Shit! +Some of this stuff! +So that we hold a window open for . +That's it! +You set the fire alarm off see! +Big fan on as well. +Brurghhh +Cor! +Lovely! +Ah, fresh air! +Look, do I have to tell you everything? +Or have you found it? +No. +No, I was working out +we could do it. +I knew that anyway! +I told you about that! +Right, there's only six. +Which side of you addressed today yesterday? +So I got hold of the right side. +That was just the . +He'll know what to get! +Was it you the other day that fucking ? +Yeah, that's right. +No, no! +I don't envy you ! +A,he didn't say ! +He , demonstration. +They're very nice! +I mean goes down, he's goes Ahhh! +Just cos . +Cos all yo you said was er +Did he shake hands? +curly , has a curly got in the end of your in the end of your knob ? +In your foreskin was it? +That's right. +Ah Bedge? +Is it your best run them again? +Yes. +You see! +Well why didn't they ask us then? +Because you only half time! +Well I said no. +I mean all the officers said no, he'll probably come round and ask one of you lot ! +But +What you +He +done now? +He come round and he asked me for a change of a fiver. +Oh you've been asked after that. +And not being +Fucking asking him! +cos we got taken over and I says I said no! +It's bloody typical! +I said no!only. +So well can you lend me a pound? +I said no!only! +Isn't he in the tea cup? +No! +No. +Well he +Why not? +got he got the sack. +Erm but he is a +But what do you want? +Ahhhh get off! +No he erm he started drinking while he was drinking tea right? +Yeah. +And it was costing him fifty P a week. +He started drinking milk by the mug full every day so +Milk! +Yeah. +Yeah! +Yeah ! +Oh I suppose, like a half pint? +And then so he was getting , he was getting a pint a day +The the +for fifty P a week!! +And the the problem here is, he say fifty P! +He said +Yeah, that's right. +he said, look thirty P a pint alright, how many do you drink per week? +What a cheek! +Yeah! +What he was glug, glug, glug, glug, glug +Yeah! +Well he could bring his own bloody milk in can't he? +And then when, when , when he er going he said I I pay fifty P a week he said! +He really think +Well a bloody pint's about what? +Thirty P a pint! +At the time,, it's about thirty P a pint weren't it? +Yeah. +Well it happened. +What do you mean he's ? +So +Complete our orders. +he's made my day actually. +He's been waiting for you to come off, ain't I Yun? +Well how long ago was this then? +About +Well I took over the beginning of the year didn't I? +Mm, about about twenty months ago before that but +He didn't, you didn't take out for nearly a year though innit Bedge? +Yeah, something like that. +Must be over a year. +Must be about +And you haven't allowed him back in? +No. +You bastard! +. +If, if he wants to come in he's got to pay a deposit anyway. +Yeah, it's like a credit card now! +It was decided that if +! +banning their members No! +Cos I was gonna use the same the same rules that B T use for their new customers. +He's a customer to us. +Yeah. +It's not, you're not though ! +I tell you what, two hundred pound deposit +You know all the +you know for a line and that they want, you have to +all the +pay a deposit. +he is the the bad boy! +But, because of that he's gonna er pay +Spondoolies +a couple of hundred. +Twenty pound a month. +It's you really? +You bloody fart! +It's you you smelly git innit? +It's all your fire ! +Flames. +I know. +Actually that's a that haircut reminds me of somebody that's on the telly. +Who's that who's guy that plays erm +Stan Stan Laurel ! +Ben's sidekick in the Paradise Club? +Same sort of haircut as that innit? +Oh him! +That bloke. +the, oh the er the ex-copper? +Oh +No, the vicar. +yeah! +The vicar, yeah. +Yeah. +Yeah,th he used to be he used to be a watchmaker or clock er mender, watcher whatever you call it! +How big's fifty ? +Just give it a couple of weeks and it'll look just like his haircut! +Cor, I got another two up the back here. +! +And that's because I've had it cut. +Hello Jackie! +Yes! +Hello ! +you plonker! +Can't keep, can't, keeps from having my hair permed anyway! +Alright. +Right. +I'm not saying a word! +What's this?a perm. +But we've gotta keep you from having hair permed! +You'll be a lovely boy now! +About fifty quid for a perm innit? +Yeah. +got his hair straight +Oh! +cos it'll cost too much to perm it. +Sho sho you shouldn't throw stones in glass houses ! +No, just remember the old er, toilet freshener that's all I can say! +Yeah. +I won't say anything to him just in case you wanna get your own at some time ! +Ah dear! +About the freshener. +Fucking hell! +Where's that K hole? +Which one? +It's tele what's, what size is fifty thou ? +It's one point three innit? +No, one point two. +No, no +Right. +no! +One point two is er, fifty thou. +Sure? +That's what I've er, got on my one anyway. +Well if you think about it +Yeah alright! +Yeah, I'm not worried! +I'm not +is +It's gotta be one point two five if that's over there. +Yeah, it's about one point two five, yeah. +Well a hundred thou is a tenth of an inch innit? +Right, hang on a sec cos the K's here +You're not going to crap! +there's some K's here that don't exist on the board alright? +Yeah. +Yeah. +A tenth of +Yeah. +twenty five point four. +Now he won't ask us. +I mean what +It's telling me there's +when it +still one in there. +when the erm force fifty +sixty and I but I +probably don't +Yeah. +know where it is. +Come here, so ! +And course, they make . +What size have you done these? +Have you give them plenty of choice? +Right. +Not plated, I think +Ah well +it's sixty I think. +Or something like that. +Yeah. +And then +It's where the end, end, end is. +You won't want that you can +Who are you doing? +, well +No, path. +Right. +And then, then you say ah! +And then you say well if you can go +When we going on our er +as we +away? +Is that what happens? +They they won't fucking ask us! +The only one who will do it is left, he'll be +He might ask you though, cos you're the new boy. +He won't. +He won't even . +What to go to London? +Yeah. +With him. +To football. +With him. +Oh my God! +Get stuck in a toilet somewhere! +When the er +when er, Geoff and er Steven come back he was, want me and Andy to go down there to have a look at sa , a stand and we said no we don't a lot of bloody money isn't it? +So what? +We're going to Birmingham aren't we? +Yeah that's right. +N E C. +And I don't think we'll be +Bet it's packed though. +No! +When you going? +It's alright. +When are you going? +I don't reckon you'll fit on there to +What? +be honest! +You cheeky bastard! +I like , I might go and see The Doors then. +Where? +Birmingham. +You're not bloody ! +It's the managers only! +Alright! +It's just the managers only mate! +There must be +No trouble then! +I've only just realised right, they're gonna +can't you? +Eeee ooh +Where's that fucking K hole? +It's really pissing me off! +They're probably isn't one! +There must be one. +Do you want me to tell you how I did mi , how I did it on mine? +Divide it into quarters, you know, do a domain of that area +And then look for +and then lo , look at it and then just do it like that. +It's the only way you can do it. +You know the easiest way don't you? +Delete the whole lot and start again. +No. +Fill out a drill template with just the K hole in it +Yeah! +That'd be quicker. +Well go do it then! +you can't find those holes by saying find it you know the holes ce certain +Find hole. +diameter. +Well you can. +Well they're all on the board somewhere. +You can but er Bedge hasn't he likes the hard way you see. +Mm. +You mean Bedge can find your ? +oi!! +Lovely! +Piss off! +Why don't you lot wank you there! +Oh, horrible I should think! +that bird with the long hair. +Ay? +Have a good spunko in that! +Did you win today? +Ay? +What? +Did you win? +Course I fucking did! +I bet if Bedge's hair was straight you know, it'd be right down to here somewhere. +Why don't you put in there, this one +tool set, tool set +Mm. +Mm. +suggest . +Now just say output. +Go and see if there's a bun in the machine will you? +There they are. +They're the little buggers! +Oh they're the fucking bloody, I knew it was them! +Oh course you did, yeah! +What are they? +Fucking knew it was them! +I told you it was those! +That's +I said it was an eight. +In there , but the battery, I told you! +That's cos they're hidden under the battery I couldn't see it. +It's because you said there was one hole, but there's two that's what it probably means. +I was looking for one hole. +Oh yeah! +Well! +Right. +Are you ? +Norman's always looking for one hole aren't you Norm ! +One point two, you sure it's one point two. +Well that's what I did mine as. +thousand from two make mine . +One point yeah, one point two five. +Put +What about sixties? +One point five. +Oh yeah! +A hundred ten is two point eight. +Three hundred is +Three hundred? +He's fucking ! +Oh wha , it is a big hole is it? +No. +Well thirty is +divide it by forty. +Three hundred I got +Three hundred times twenty five point four. +No,so +Cos that'll be six point, five +One mill is forty thou . +One mill is forty thou . +We ain't . +Yee ahhh +Get the old calculator out. +Ah! +Oh that's erm ah yes, I should try to use the calculator if I could find it on the machine! +Four zero equals +Equals +Seven point five! +I told you! +You didn't! +I did! +You didn't! +I said seven point five! +I didn't bloody hear you! +Break, go for a break. +already? +That's full! +I was giving Norm the coppers. +Who? +. +I wouldn't take them . +Get your own! +And you're not ! +And bloody that's mine! +cup of tea . +Oh right. +They're mine, you cheeky bastard! +Now! +Oh yeah. +just give them to Paul. +You only move one decimal place don't you? +Well Paul don't mind, he'll give them straight back to me you fucking idiot! +And then +Well anyway! +No! +What are you playing at? +Centimetres. +All this . +I know! +I did it! +No, if I did it. +No! +I did the actual removal of the pin. +No, it's who did it. +He didn't +No he did the easy bit, I did the hard work! +Well this lovely , lovely boy did it for me! +And you can get what he's got. +Are you gonna do his appraisal? +No thanks Mark. +We we've stuck you up on that already! +You wait till I +Did you do your counselling interview? +Mm? +Did he do the cancelled in this? +No, I haven't been counselled. +I wanna counselled. +Oh right. +I mean I fucked it up!call as well see what that one's gonna be like. +So where's my counselling? +Come on! +I could do with a laugh! +I don't know see it's out of my hands mate! +It's gone! +Paul's not gonna do them all is he? +Paul ? +I dunno. +Unless they do a mass one, +together. +We're all fucking useless alright? +You made a right fucking mess of that lad, didn't you? +He's had his. +Had his already. +I've had mine. +Who did your then? +I had him. +Oh what er one of the brothers. +What do you get? +What do you get? +A's and B's. +Oh you bastard! +I did! +Why? +on on Friday +I think the sun shines out of my bottom! +might be job cut. +Yeah? +You're not gonna sit here and no bloody work you know! +Sort out of them which ones you don't want. +Well you've done everything so far! +Yeah. +You just get bored of it now aren't you? +So you sling them, sling them down the track! +Er +Right, look, look, look! +Well which ones aren't we using? +V T H then. +What is the point of +Hang on a minute! +That is ridiculous! +No it's not! +It is! +It's not! +Point eight five? +Come on! +What's the difference between point eight five and point nine? +Point eight +Okay. +five diameter is sweet bugger all! +Anyway, we want A alright? +Okay, B nought point eight five B +Think about it,is what? +Well board E F and H +D's you mean! +and A alright? +I'll have that one that one okay, E +Why don't we just mark all the ones that are being used by saying +And the problem is +text? +Good +You need +grief! +a nought point eight five. +And then go +What are you trying to do? +like that. +And so, we're gonna use a point five. +What are you doing? +And we're gonna use a point nine. +Well hang on a sec , cos you've gotta get the letters translated, it depends what's in your drill template dunnit? +Fucking hell! +doing just don't use the whole line! +Hang on a sec , look, look, look! +All we've gotta do, alright, is that list of holes that are actually on the board alright? +Alright. +These are the ones the what's it's given us alright? +Drill template. +So we'll start with twenty we've we want twenty thirty three exists thirty five exists +Except thirty three +Alright? +and thirty five are gonna be combined. +Well hang on a sec let's let's just see which ones we need. +Well mark them. +Four, thirty seven +Yeah , hang on a minute. +Small one. +Lesley! +Well you, you be going through and just tick off which just stroke a line through the ones we don't want. +ello! +Oh right! +Okay. +Go for it! +Hello Phil I'm upstairs. +Yeah, that thing next to the . +Oh mm mmmm ! +Okay. +. Okay. +Er it's it's probably wasting her time. +Trying to . +Okay? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Ah, but we we got some gear on site because been working on them so . +Erm they'll just have to sort that mess out.. +you could bring it round to the corner. +Resolution is thirty five, thirty +Yeah. +seven, four +Okay. +fifty one. +Thanks very much for letting us know . +Yep! +Bye! +Andy! +Andrew ! +What? +Yeah? +Right, how you doing? +Right a hundred and fifty's not used, and thirty three and thirty five are gonna be combined. +It's on here but it's not on here. +Right, that's good. +Right, so we're using all the others are we? +Mm! +Twenty thirty three, thirty five, thirty seven, forty, fifty sixty, eighty, one, ten, three,thr , three hundred and fourteen. +Excellent! +So a hundred and fifty we don't use and, you've already defined that E and F will be the same +Yeah. +on here? +What you'll have to do in here right, because E and F you'll still have to have E and F alright? +But quoted as the same size alright? +Well E and F on here is er thirty three. +Oh right, sorry! +That's I me , erm F and H. +Make them both point nine five then. +Well ho is this is E and F, thirty three, thirty five, how come we got point eight five and point nine? +Well cos you got this lot wrong didn't you? +You did all the letters wrong. +No I didn't! +I put all the letters in and you told what +Well you took them off that didn't you? +and then you told me what to put in on the plated through and stuff! +From that ! +They don't tally do they? +I know. +Well only cos F is in there now. +Well that's probably where I'm wrong. +Hang on. +A is twenty. +Make +Hang on. +Go on you can work it out! +This is . +This is in millimetres and this is in millime no this is in . +They're all in . +And this is in mill +Right. +We got it all written down look. +Okay, right, so point five is twenty, which you've got right? +As long as your drill template tallies with this alright? +And you don't miss out any letters that occur except for the L, right? +Cos we won't have any L's right? +So occur on that, right? +Mm mm! +So this is what we're actually +You ne you need two. +this is what actually using on this design? +Yep! +This is the old one? +Yep! +Some of the holes are not used at all. +Yep! +So, are we gon do you get rid of the hole size along with letter. +No. +Keep, you'll have to keep the letter because that letter will come up alright? +So these details +So +will be put in here, this is what they're actually gonna use. +Yeah. +I mean, for instance, make erm make F nought point nine five as well . +Alright? +Yeah, so you have to make them the same. +Yeah. +Right. +Cos so we've actually got F and H on the form. +Yeah. +On the . +Okay? +Yeah. +Fine. +Barbara something innit? +Mediterranean tomato that is. +Ah! +Nearly as good as tomato . +! +My boss is on my tail the whole time! +Are you serious? +Yeah. +do you? +Bloody hell! +Unfortunately! +I'm gasping for ! +Well he used to remind of when he went in for tea and erm and you'd be lucky! +Just a bit. +Well Oh I was gonna give it to Ian . +I wanted to see him ever! +Oh well! +Is he going to College tonight? +Yeah, but he's not in today so I can't give it to him. +Ian who? +Oh ! +When you said Ian, for some reason I thought . +Dunno why!any more does he? +Too much of a boy stuff for him obviously! +Well wha wha what would I have done with that then? +I don't throw anything away. +Yeah, it effects me like that when I drink really cold drink. +Is it that? +Yeah. +That's just paper . +Oh God! +Think, think! +Barbara +Windsor! +Oh what the hell's her surname? +Er ain't you got a have you got a general file? +Yeah, but . +Your right. +Oh he won't be in school will he? +It's half term. +Is it? +Yeah. +How come I saw a school bus this morning in half term? +. +Don't see why I should bloody er bloody ! +.Christ! +Have you got the old tea mates? +Oh yeah! +A lot at the front sheet didn't we? +I saw them this morning. +Ah! +No, is this your duty counsellor then? +I'll have her name won't I? +Oh no. +Yeah. +I'll have her name on here won't I? +You got the signing of . +I've got it. +Yahhh +Could even be him you know. +Ee ee +Barbara , brilliant! +Even got a telephone number on. +Excrement! +Well it hasn't got her address? +Yeah but the , she's in the phone book. +Ah fair enough. +Does that mean the er Barbara . +That's it! +I know it. +I'll know the address cos old law don't do thirty five a week. +in er +Where's there's a will there's a way, hey? +Gotta post it? +No. +Who's is this? +All this is scrap innit? +Bar bar ra . +, that's it! +I'm sure. +Who? +, yeah that's it! +Barbara , +? +Yeah. +I thought you said +I was wrong. +You're beating us +I was right. +at college. +You really are! +Is it spelt like that? +Two r's, two t's. +Well I was close! +Ah, that's pretty , I'll send off . +How do you know her then? +I've missed the last post haven't I? +Half three but +But +you'd be better of posting it at a post box when you go cos they pick them up. +Post box is just outside here on the er +Come out and go these go right just down there is a postbox on the left hand side. +Just past +What off-site? +Yeah. +And they pick up about five o'clock. +Well there's various post boxes on the way home. +Bless you! +Mark! +Mark, don't sneeze any more! +Alright? +So is better er tested by girls? +They give us more work. +Yeah I bet! +I'll have a word with him. +Don't forget push him to . +Yeah. +have a wank isn't he? +Sure!. +Cheers Ron! +That it's been taken away. +Yep! +Therefore, on the Web it says, completed! +Yep! +The er people that pay the bills say oh well that's no good to us! +What is the use of having this wonderful +Well I +Web system +Well +when they don't fucking look at it! +It's supposed to be +Well how do they know? +for everybody on site. +Precisely! +The whole system is +But they're a , they're a law +smooth running. +unto themself! +They still want a paper system! +They still want me to send paper work to say it. +Which we do all that anyway, always do. +They're fucking useless! +No! +Wha what happens if the good come from the store? +You don't have to do any paper work do we? +I do! +What's that for? +What's +Tough! +that for? +Circuit boards and tough! +No, you get paperwork from there. +Yeah but +I know! +surely that system of paperwork shuffling is is gonna come to end with this. +Well it bloody should do! +Is it because well the whe whe when they the good they come from internal store +Yeah. +they that are sent over or what? +Oh I dunno! +I will just fill out what she wants me to do. +They'll probably end up paying twice for it. +Because I recko , I reckon they must of been paid for that because Maury hasn't been phoning up and saying oh you haven't paid it! +They've obviously ! +Yeah. +She usually pho phones you up about a month afterwards, you know there is a sort of a problem. +I'm pretty sure we must have paid it cos I'm sure she would have phoned us. +Cos it's got my name on there. +She'd know it was me who got it. +Well it's not one of these weirdos! +. +What? +You wanna do it like this one though. +Yes. +Mm, fucking right! +Yeah, you're telling me! +But , you said you only wanted four lines! +Yeah I know but if I have, say if I have six lines +Yeah, well you then just go and change them for that one drawing! +You can't see with the th the colour,a better colour. +Like black or +Ah! +No, transparent's better innit? +Yeah. +You sure your right? +I'm sure you got some +That's okay, they're all pins. +No, not pins, erm veers and veers aren't a problem. +You can check with the governor! +Small boy! +Small boy says it's okay. +Ah! +Oh God! +Fucking move them to those! +Ah,lol lol lol lol Oh ! +Problems, problems, problems! +Oh er! +Right where are they? +Okay. +Why don't you do a Mark . +Here to here, forget it! +Now, if I click on there and see it +Delete it +you've got +now, but forget it. +We're not worried about that. +If I erase it I lose the veer +Ah, cos there's an extra vire there is there? +Yeah. +But it stops short and the other one overlaps it. +Ah, leave it then. +Yeah, I mean it's silly things really. +Yeah, leave it. +Undo. +I don't know why erm +We should of done these before we erm +Out of the book . +Yeah, but leave it. +That's cos you had a sort of go at it. +Yeah, if there's another re-work we'll sort these out to re-wire. +Tha that's why I'm a bit concerned about messing around s straightening and that sort of thing, cos I'm sure I've had this problem before I'm sure that it reduces a lot of er +Yeah, but you've still gotta do it. +You still gotta move stuff around ain't you? +Yeah, well what I do is I delete it +Tidy it up. +Yeah. +and then I draw back in. +Cos afterwards +Yeah, but then if you run this your ri +Yeah but , I think if you straighten lines and mess around with them too much it leaves little bits in underneath the other one. +Yeah but there's not a lot of difference in the amount of time is there? +By the time you've you've moved them all rather than drawing them all in again then you run the con activity and swop back. +Cos you're gonna have to run con activity anyway. +Well it's just down here with the plate +And another thing is to is to to run con activity before you output the plot. +Yeah. +But a little short thing like that isn't gonna hurt is it? +No. +Leave that. +Right. +Okay. +Er, what else is there? +There is , that's the er crystal. +Yep! +That's good! +That's right. +Which had been forced. +Yep. +I'll just show you what was on there before. +See they're not fully connected. +No. +Move back. +Right, okay, let's have a look. +It looks okay. +Better colour, alright? +Er, so which one shall we . +Yeah. +dunnit? +I can't see anything wrong with it to be honest. +Signal feed back is non-reflectives. +Is it because this package has been messed around with? +And that thing should be a a bra , a main +No. +pin? +No? +Right! +Interesting! +Right, I'll show you this. +Hang on sec , I'll just look in +Right, it's here right not fully connected right? +Now +Yeah. +the problem here is between this point here right? +Which is one of them, and I'll go over there, this is one of them. +So the thing is +And there. +Yep. +There right? +And +There. +there. +So it's between it's just on that bit there? +Yeah, and also this +S +this bit here, which which I was +Signal being traced, three nine four thousand. +That blue trace there and this blue trace here it says there's a problem stubbing it. +If you mark it, delete it and re-draw +Yeah. +there's not another one underneath. +So I dunno why it's causing a problem really. +Stubs in signal. +It's not a trace, that those co- ordinates it's +Bib bib Sorry, can I just interrupt? +Mark darling, have you Barbara's address in Felixstowe? +I was looking for the same thing yesterday ! +Were you? +Yeah. +Cos I er you know she sent a thing, well I you know you sent the thing with the address and I +Yeah. +well I lost it! +Okay. +I had to get si , see I was gonna give it to you. +Yeah, well I didn't go to +She we +I didn't go to thing, I weren't in. +I was away. +Yeah, ah well no, I couldn't find you and erm Mick said you were on leave so I had to send it, and I didn't have the address so I had to go and ge , see George. +Can you hang on a minute, Bedge? +Yeah. +It's in my briefcase. +Alright then. +You'll have to be quick! +What's the Walkman! +What's all this +bloody Walkman business? +All that, ay? +Well it's just a pose really innit? +Oh I see! +Now erm ol lol lol where are we? +No it's not a +Henry the Fifth! +You doing English? +I've got two of them, no. +I have got it. +I have got it. +Oh! +Should be able to remember it, it's erm Barbara +I've got it somewhere but +and it's erm yeah , haven't got a postcode though. +I'm sure it'll get there. +I might be going swimming at lunchtime today so I could probably run up there or put it in the post if I go. +Alright mate. +Oh yes, but I mean I've finished +That's the trouble really innit? +Yeah, that's a problem innit? +I keep telling the other one than that. +No, apparently +yo , racialism is the worst part! +Well yeah! +Ta , talking to other people who've done the course. +Yeah, but I'm finding this I'm doing this patterns thing and it's all about transformations and that, and I, and there's so much gobbledegook with it that I'm I'm ge I'm getting lost my mind is getting lost in the gobbledegook Cos I know what +Have you watched the programme? +Watched the programme? +I ha , I missed it , I missed it! +I missed it Sunday. +Saturday and Sunday. +It's good! +Did you video it? +Yeah. +Oh I'll look at +the video if you taped it. +As long as you can er it back. +Put it back. +Yeah. +Cos what I'm doing, I put them on a series and keeping them for revision. +Yeah, well that's what I was planning to do but I was o +Oh. +I've go , I was away in Ashford Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. +It's this Saturday. +No. +This is it, I've gotta +You can borrow it as long as you promise to bring it back. +Oh well if you let me have it this week I'll let you have it back at the weekend. +Yeah, I'll bring it in tomorrow. +Okay, right. +I better take the tab out the video otherwise he'll erase it! +Not that I don't trust him or anything! +I think what it is +Yeah. +I don't think, when you draw this trace perhaps it went just over the pin and didn't click it down. +Ah, but when it's actually done it'll be connected won't it? +Yeah. +. +Aha. +I'd like to get this out the way really cos then I can get on to something else. +Something +Yeah well the mega stream is flying upwards. +Oh we're on that now are we? +Yeah. +I thought it was the tester yesterday. +Tester? +Yeah. +What the tester? +Yeah. +No, forget that! +Oh God ! +Wish you boys would make your minds up! +One minute it's one thing, and then it's another! +It's not my fault! +It's er erm change of priorities. +Did he go to tutorial last night. +No. +Oh my God! +You not go tutorial! +No. +Oh, bad boy! +They had er he forgot to video the programmes, so he's gotta borrow my video. +And he didn't have the address either he's lost his sheet ! +You call your report files the same as me. +Rep +Oh, I call it +I call mine. +Con +No. +I call it Co ,Con yeah. +Con +Sta, and Rep +Yeah. +Yeah, but why do you want to see the the T V programme, it's useless! +No, it's not. +It's very good actually! +Oh, cracks me up, cos of it doesn't +Yeah. +it doesn't erm develop if you like, it always stays the same. +So they show all these really old videos and these guys +Yeah, that's right. +are walking round with flared trousers and things! +Brilliant! +This guy, his flares must of been sort of +No, no yo yo i isn't it funny when I thought it is a fault, one of them discarded the right? +And they mapped it in Summer School +Yo you remember it? +Yeah. +Yeah. +We saw him in he's one of the again, he's ju er, he sort of he act big. +You know, in the Summer school he normally give you some sort of lecture anything +No! +and say what hi , you got er , I got a bit er, play a game now. +And he's +Yeah. +he's quite a because +Quite old, yeah. +er, he said because of er the programme being how he used, you see his funny long hair!! +Yeah, a tie you could make a suit out of! +And I've got this bloody window stuck ! +What? +Ah go +Gone off the top ! +Well just click on the on pop-up so you get a a new a new window. +I can't. +Only in er Bullmaster one. +Oh, you shoved it up sc , oh! +I can't get into the banner to move it! +Well put er, hit fault. +Default. +What do you mean? +What are you talking about? +What do I wanna do fault for? +Shut up! +Oh no don't hit the middle fucking bollock +Too late! +Mark ! +Oh it's brilliant innit! +That ought to do it! +That's alright, just do a control C. +Yeah, just do a control C,! +No I wanted a +There you go. +We we'll laugh ! +Fucking hell ! +Wanted to do a +That's brilliant! +Exactly the same problem again! +Don't ever +Oh God! +Too late! +Mark, you should say what you're going to do before you do it! +I got no S S T talk today? +No. +Ain't those batteries run out yet Mark? +Well I se +No. +see they're still working. +Yeah, just about. +What you got round your neck for then? +Just a poser +Well when he pisses off I can put the radio on can't I! +You're just a poser ay Mark? +Sorry? +Put your radio on. +Keeps turning it on when you see it now. +Well I can't hear what he's saying then can I? +Well you can't fucking hear anyhow! +You still hit the fucker when he says don't! +No, he says it too late! +Should always say it like at least half a second earlier. +There's loads more now, look at this lot! +Yeah I know. +They're all the with er Eric. +Oh I got rid of that one. +Doo doo The V back one right? +Yeah, but they're they're not really a problem are they? +Because this one +As long as it , as long as it goes in +Yeah. +onto that thing. +Yeah, but you really should I mean A D characters not traced right? +You really should check those. +Oh I have checked them. +But I was, I just bought you down here just to have a look. +Oh right. +Erm +I was . +which report bar's that the Con one? +I just ran Con again and to add the new bar to see if that be back one disappears. +Hang on a minute! +Er type the or moor the er con +You will see more. +Cos it o , there's erm a set up safe +I didn't see eighty four before. +There's a set up that checks a certain amount of areas and then blanks it otherwise you could be sitting there for hours waiting for a new Con activity so you just chew them off bit by bit. +Right? +Oh, so that isn't all the problems then? +No. +Ah! +So once you've chewed those you should run it again? +Yeah. +Oh I didn't realise that! +We should run it again anyway! +Ah! +So,you gotta run it again haven't you? +Yeah. +Well I haven't had that problem before though. +Cos you've never run it again have you ? +No, I do. +No, I do, I do normally I I'm pretty careful. +The thing I was getting so pissed off cos I've run it about ten times now, cos you keep coming and do alterations! +Oh God ! +Andy says, oh we've gotta add a new buffer in here so I'm shifting stuff around and adding capacitors and +Right. +De dum +, ay? +Ah ee! +That's your boss! +Listen boy ! +I don't fucking know! +How the hell am I supposed to know where he is! +They're looking for you! +It's like asking me where Justin is! +! +He's at college today isn't he? +Oh that's good news! +Supposedly, he should be, yes! +That's different! +He must love Tuesdays so it means he can have an extra lie in bed! +They don't start till nine do they? +That's a lay in? +Well to be honest well if he he +Wanna see something clever? +Go on. +Little window up here right? +The thing about co-ordinates why? +You get a little cross in that window +Mm. +then zoom. +Oh isn't that lovely! +Look! +you can see it's +That's lovely! +Cos what I tend to do is I do a full board there find out +Yeah. +where it is and then zoom. +Yeah. +So you've, actually saving +Clicked up on the C N C. +Yeah, just turn all items off in that window all full board right? +And then, what a so, you get a huge star there you just zoom around about erm +Isn't that lovely! +and you're there. +And can you zoom off? +Experience mate! +Can you zoom in on that window then? +Or is that always full board +No it's +type window? +it's exactly the same window as this, you can edit in it, +you can do everything. +It should go past the window. +So how do you how obviously you do +you have the cursor in here when you hit zoom? +Yeah. +And then you go in there. +And then yo , you edit box in there. +If you had it in there it would actually zoom that way? +Yeah , I mean if you go erm if I go zoom here right? +And then, quickly here +That does that, right. +Right? +But then if I go zoom in here +Oh I see. +and I go into that pad, say +Single level three. +and you can't see it cos I got all items on but +Yeah. +you just get a picture of that pad there +So the all items on and off are completely separate from the two windows? +Yeah. +And is on? +Yep! +Wonderful! +I like that! +It's just one of those little things you learn when you working on as many bloody years as I've been now! +No, I've never used an extra window. +Yeah. +I ha , I do in Ace but not in Bullmaster +It's just a good way to mark it. +But ones like this to me, I think they're cos if you +Yeah. +just lay the trace over the top of the pin it doesn't come out. +Yeah. +Yes, that should physically click on the pin to get the wire to connect. +Oh I do! +Do you? +Mm mm! +And then do a +But in terms of, in terms of actual copper, I mean it is actually when the, when the plotter goes over that pad that is gonna be connected. +Yeah, but it's still worth checking though. +Oh yeah! +But I mean they can be left can't they? +Yeah. +It's pointless trying to output them again. +And you hear what say yesterday isn't it? +What's that? +You just only a piece of little metal. +Ha! +Sorry? +In lunchtime you come in here and say whe where's the board? +Oh! +I thought it was in, you said oh! +Piece of little metal is! +Yeah, he's er gotta look out that guy ain't he? +Yeah but +Well he's stupid over everything! +When you skive, you skive you don't let people know you're doing it! +But we tell him, long, long time and he just well said well yeah, yeah! +That's it. +And totally honest. +Don't,, I mean what I trying to help him you know the guy he's in work +Yeah, I've already looked at that one it's alright Bedge. +Yeah, but some people won't take advice will they? +Well tha , that was very rude to come fucking , a lot of things and he just say +Told him, yeah. +If he'd he'd have got +I had a go at him the other week using a fucking hire car! +He took his car down to the actually ! +It was a hire car? +I don't mind if he asks you, he says look I'm just gonna go over stores , he took it off fucking site, didn't even know that's where he was going! +Yeah, oh I know! +Stupid burk had gone on a crane like that +Yeah, yeah! +tell him to fuck off! +He's had it now! +Yeah and you're responsible for it. +But I've gotta be responsible for it. +Yeah. +Bastard! +He was none too happy! +Ha, God ! +How can, how many ? +I'll be very surprised if . +Must be bloody ! +Especially if this thing . +Yeah, it's +If they chop it off as well, I said they fucking blinding you like hell you'd have +Well yeah +and +yeah! +I bet he'd speed it up! +Cor it's a lot slower when you want another network innit? +The old monster! +Oh good it's one slade one now. +Yeah, +Mm. +Well no you're well it's, it's a stand alone, but all your files are not +Hang on! +Hang on! +Hang on! +What you got? +I think that's . +I just did that. +Oh right. +See you also get the bit up there with signals in this don't you? +don't give a shit! +Mm. +And window. +Oh it's lovely dovely They're all the pins and the veers that it goes through. +Yeah. +All the pins. +No veers. +Ah ! +Ooh! +Oh ho ho the whole lot ! +Well we have got +Take this backwards ! +erm +You can't . +He said all +about four days left to get this tested then up and running. +Yeah, Frank knows it's gonna slip. +It might, I've gotta +Erm +So that +I'm actually full time after today. +He can't of done! +So get me to do it, it's only +Yeah. +gonna be me and Paul fixing all the design and that on it +Yeah, he says . +and you +Right. +hopefully. +You'll be giving us +It's gotta have a shelf so it'll be a whole drawer won't it? +You done all the converting? +Yeah I mean we did the fourth but +I haven't done the ball to be honest on this one. +I started reading up on it. +You know +I've done all the schematic components. +Oh like getting thirty four bars to a hundred. +And how do they do it? +There shouldn't be that, there shouldn't be that big a board really should it? +Well you get +Yeah, but the trips he's using are big. +Is it on his own or what? +Should be something like that type of board. +Well I hope it's . +No, well no we're not using the LCC's, using dips. +What are they, forties? +Forties and thirty twos, I think. +Well there's only a what +One of them's and all. +Yeah, but you've got all your microcircuitry on there. +We're gonna have a R S fifty two, erm H D L C +Ah course, that's not showing is it? +That's right. +So you got those +Oh it'll be a double euro then. +At least. +I've got a box for a double euro card. +Don't wanna tell them they're se , they're gonna smoke. +Get on doing work will you? +Erm I've gotta wait for Andy, I dunno what the fucking hell he's done! +It should be documented. +Cos if you got in by bus this morning ain't he? +Well . +I should do that. +And it keep saying and it keeps saying there's a what erm slabs of concrete to be defined. +Oh! +Oh! +Every single thing will be +. +That's not perfect though! +That one's coming back already. +No! +You knock it off by, what was it? +Er was is it? +You're supposed to curl it up in a, in a erm in a brush when you blow dry it you know. +Keep the perm in there. +I'll give you a blow job! +Did you ever see me when I had mine permed? +What, yours? +You never fucking +You! +did! +You never had it in a fucking +You remember when I had a perm don't you? +Oh yeah, you looked a right tart! +I looked a cunt +I remember that ! +I looked a complete asshole ! +he had a fucking perm! +You didn't see me then? +It was like it wasn't as long as Bedgeys but it was really tight and really you know? +Cos his is like I dunno Sweep +How +his is +How +his is Sweep! +How long ago? +But mine +How long ago? +Oh erm before I was married. +About five years ago. +Five, six years ago. +God I don't believe it! +Bloody was as well! +I bet you looked a lovely boy! +Of course, you haven't got enough hair to perm you know ! +That's what I say! +No, it was, it was quite long. +You must admit , my hair is the worst,fa falling out since! +No, got quite, quite a nice perm. +It's thickened it up at the front innit? +You think he's joking! +I got a photograph, I'll see if I can find it, bring it in. +Yeah. +I got a perm. +Yeah, well you've had a perm ain't you Yun? +Yeah! +No! +I just +It's like +It is! +You've had a perm? +It is! +A China man with a perm ! +That used to be quite a thing actually. +Well it wear tomorrow, you know they have. +I haven't, no! +Oh Nigel used to have a perm didn't he? +Who's that? +Nigel . +Did he? +Yeah. +When I first met him it was really curly you know, and I +Bu +just thought it was his natural hair but +Yeah but my my my perm is not the really the curl, like hi his was set nicely. +Not like what bloody curly all hair! +People must er think you're a pratt! +I did! +No, not +Bloody Chine China men always have straight hair don't they? +No,i it's not really what curly perm, is just like the er er a wave perm in it. +Oh wave, yeah. +Ah lovely! +was saying. +Have you +Well +photograph of it? +Yes, I have tha , the really horrible one? +That's true! +Brilliant! +The wedding photo +At least mine's natural! +Ha! +Ish +The wedding one a what, you know. +The +two mark co-ordinate windows. +Yeah, one for one end, one for the other. +Yeah what I do is, I have specified so I If I suspe the numbers are quite close I put one in there have that, and I just do reverse around and you +Yeah. +can see the other one might rub off. +Do you know why I back to Norman ? +Yes. +Norman? +Won't be much. +Won't be now , he's a Londoner he's bound to have had one! +You must have a ! +Yeah, but I won't say! +What's the problem? +You have to hit it again. +Well to be honest I got too many bloody windows up there! +I got Ace up there now you know. +So you aught to be careful! +Alright. +Why? +Too many windows, it'll crash! +Well that's alright. +Well you can open +There it is. +It's that one and it's that one colour. +Well I'm sure it'll be alright Bedge . +It'll be alright on the night. +Fucking airline now! +Well that's alright innit? +Hope it's not fucking connected +Well I ra +work ! +If you go on a st +If you go on a stat it says no airlines! +How do you account for that? +What? +You look at stat which I just ran this morning right? +My file called stat it says zero airlines. +Don't beli +Did you just delete that? +No. +No I didn't fucking touch it ! +You didn't? +Well what's that? +No, oh. +Have you put a different file name in? +Nope! +Just do more stat and it'll say zero. +Total length of airline, zero. +So I sa , I took it that that was it. +Now more the one you just did. +I just did. +No, it couldn't be. +You ju erase it, it won't allow you to over , overwrite it. +Got to take them out the root. +See so that's why you should check the con activity you see. +Ah! +You always didn't I they tell you? +I do, that's why, I always do. +I do stat, con and rep after I've done D L C. +No I wasn't about to go down and do the bizz +Tell him off! +Bedge, come on, tell him off! +You've gotta be able to run a little tidy up programme, we should just get rid of all these stubs and things! +It's like, tell us what's in the software. +Er +Come on Bedge! +So you're tell him off! +Good job we ran this innit? +Yeah, if it'll . +Now what was the file you called when you ran sa when you ran stat +I called it stat I'm sure I did. +No. +Put it in the box. +In there. +Hang on. +Kick the mother fucker! +No, woh! +No, hang on! +Hang on a sec ! +I just wanna see if it's been erased since we've been digging around. +Probably has you see. +Right, okay. +Point select. +Forwards er +No airline! +Why don't you run with airlines on all the time? +Well I've got confused! +Well if i if it comes up and tells me there's no airlines there, then I can assume that there's no airlines! +That's right! +It didn't! +It said there was zero air , that means th there's none there. +What do you mean none there? +Well there's one there now cos we just connected it. +If you a, right I reckon what's happened, you've done a delete on a signal at some point right? +And it hasn't been pulled up on the airline? +No, you've when you do a delete erm if you do con ex signal, if you have that on signal it deletes the whole signal, airlines and all. +I always have it on sig as much as poss . +It defaults the sig +That's, that's usually what happens. +Anyway that doesn't solve the problem now anyway! +Oh my God! +So we gotta do the bloody thing again anyway! +Yeah. +Do you want me to put this one in or do you want the other one to go in? +I wasn't told! +! +Well I I mean I was, I was relying on the, on the . +It's, erm, didn't you do these things like erm join the numbers up when you were a kiddy +Yeah. +You know, in these little books? +It's just like that. +That says that said to me zero airline so I thought ah great, it's all connected! +You know? +Well the con activity test told you it wasn't! +Well I hadn't got through that had I? +I would have discovered once I'd been through it all. +Good Lord! +Ooh no! +Ooh no! +That one's get it like that red well that number's moved. +Yeah. +It goes blue, green, blue, green, blue +That's a bit of alive. +Hang on! +Blue, blue, green +Boo ber ber ber ber ber . +Right, that's green. +Blue. +We bring that one red down there. +Doo doo . +Move these around. +We can go no we can't cos of that. +This'll be a good one! +Do you want to do it? +Yeah, I can do it. +? +Ow +I mean we might as well pitch it now. +Pitch those plots. +Hang on a sec ! +Wha what's happening here? +That can come right down here and then blue underneath. +Pull that one down. +Well I just wondered why it goes there, in +It could go down one couldn't it? +It goes hold that. +Well it's as broad as it's long really. +Mm. +That just says a bit. +Mm, no. +It just means changing it. +This is the same thing though? +Yeah. +A bit devious isn't he? +One things gone down there. +Well Mark did it didn't he! +Well the problem is, is that you don't like teeing off do you? +Don't like teeing off signals. +It's gotta be +Yeah, you could of done +come off at a pin. +So +Yeah but you could of come across +Well I couldn't +from there +I remember working on that one and I did it because all this lot was a ,. +I just pulled it up from that bottom. +Probably this again. +Oh but you see +It's alright, look +I mean that one +Hang on! +Yeah, but I mean that one you could of shifted this lot put some kinks in this one a bit, right? +Moved all that lot up. +Yeah but I don't like putting kinks in! +You could of gone round with the kinks +It's horrible! +The kinks +Well yeah but it's better tha , I mean that's that's like a bus signal and that's like a ser ,this one that's going round. +Is that now? +That straight? +What you doing? +That straight? +What's straight? +That light. +Which one? +That one. +That one isn't. +I know that one isn't! +That it's an zoom delete it. +This is difficult really. +They're gone now. +Look! +Look at that! +Alright! +Don't fuck about! +Oh no Mrs! +Oh +No! +Gotta go! +No. +It's gotta go! +No. +You don't think ahead that's the trouble! +I do! +You're a cunt Bedge! +Patronising bastard! +You gotta think head! +I think head everyday! +You've left a C print on there. +Hang on! +You've left a +It's alright! +C pri +I'm getting the poxy bloody grid! +I why do I have to work with that grid? +Cos you can see what you're doing then. +Oh! +No, it's all naughty and +I find the +horrible! +if you have the grid on you don't miss airlines. +I believe you! +There's a segment there left! +You just make sure +What the hell did that jump across there for? +There's a fucking segment on there! +I told you there's a bloody segment, and does he listen? +No! +He well he never listens +He just goes and clicks the bloody buttons! +he never listens to you anyway Bedge ! +Look! +If the +Ah +it's still a bloody segment innit? +my God! +That's awful isn't it? +Ah! +And look +at that! +Look at these D L C's you put in there look! +That's gone, right! +Let's just do board delete that'll probably help won't it? +Okay, so I'm coming from here +You delete up to there! +What's that? +Oh it's the big airlines. +Yeah, yeah, that's the one yeah, right. +Ah like a bloody +I'll leave you at it! +I'm glad to hear it! +God! +Run you over! +I'll get it sorted and I will do it again! +Cor, I dunno ! +Look Dave, look! +Clever boy! +Charge up my batteries cos of my aeroplanes. +Oh you're into +Got my charger. +aeroplanes are you? +I'm into model aeroplanes, yes. +Oh dear! +Well , not recently but I'm hoping to get back to it. +When I er when I get the time. +Yes, yes. +I'll have to +From the Hollies +take . +the Hollies +Yeah. +Well the trouble is they're so small now aren't they? +Yeah. +Because they restricted the area so much if you got a big plane that like, to by pass now. +It's all gone again now. +There was one +Don't have a lot of time to think,You know ! +there was one bloke over in erm tha you know, with a man la , that I used to work with and he, he used to fly from Hollies , and he lost his plane one day and fle , flew out of range and er he he spent weeks looking for it! +Couldn't find! +Because th the the sort of corn and barley would, was er was almost ready for +Bloody! +er harvesting, and he was frightened that he was getting a bit panicky cos if, you know, frightened a combine had had run over it. +So +But +he went and hired and plane from Richmond Airport +Oh God! +Must of +And th +cost him a fortune! +this guy flew him round and he saw it! +He spotted it from there and he wen , went and got it. +Probably cost him twice the amount! +To hire a plane than the thing's worth! +Well yeah! +I have heard cases of erm planes being lost in in er crops chu chur churned up! +Mm. +Farmers aren't happy ! +No I know. +But there's a couple of guys in another division over there that they were quite keen on er aircraft and they spent weeks building these bloody things and then er, and experienced flyer he'd taken over to the other, other side of the estate when he had a bit of runway over there +Aha. +and fly them, and they usually flew for about ten seconds and he smashed it! +And they came back for another fortnight of re-building ! +He said I saw too much! +Where's that bloody kettle? +Two weeks after he'd said +Haven't we +ten second flight! +Hasn't Yunny put the kettle on yet? +He's just gone. +He's just gone +What a +to get it. +what a lazy bastard! +I'll bloody steal his notes +Yeah, when I first I used to fly, actually screen flying. +Mm. +Tremendous you know! +I had this plane a a low four nine engine and I was only a kid. +I bought it in village in Mark's Wood I used to take it up the runway and +Yeah. +took off and I was circle ground, it was quite a windy day then this stood there with me , had no control over the thing, like! +And it er I think +I think the engine cut at about +Well Norm is stepping outside. +Is he? +Oh! +Is he? +Yeah. +Ooh, my God ! +I'm a man myself, ha? +But er, is he though? +Erm yeah er e , I couldn't hit, you know, just went outside and er what was this? +Er, I went out the next day to go to er th yeah that was a Sunday I lost it. +And before I went to school on the Monday, drove back down the marsh and went in this forest trying to find it. +And we went round this estate can't remember where it was and erm thought knock on the doors and se , ask people had seen it and then later in the day this woman phoned up and said she saw a couple of kids walk down the road with it and sort of ca , called them over and said oh I heard that his, his . +So I got it back. +That was lucky! +And it wasn't broken! +I was +Yeah? +absolutely flabbergasted! +That was a bit lucky! +Could of been a gonner there! +Could of been indeed. +Drink? +Well drop one, they're still looking. +They're still looking. +No, I I got plenty of time, I'm not in a hurry. +Cos I I got plenty of time. +Still looking. +Is there still the news about carrying here? +Oh I could do. +I I I I think that's one of the options that I could sort of er I could still be the li , cleaner over here. +If I ain't got a job by June I could still be here cleaning. +You gotta take a pay cut then? +Oh yeah well er well wo I'd take a pay cut because erm well I'd have to take a pay cut anyway, but the thing is though, with my pension with my pension from day one I ain't gonna be too bad off anyway. +If I can take home a hundred and twenty quid well with my seventy pound a week pension two hundred quid. +So I ain't gonna be too bad off anyway. +I mean, sort of er you know +Well, it sounds alright. +Probably make a bit more hours, and course there might be er a a couple of hours a night, it'll probably be I reckon it'll probably from five to about er seven. +The proper hours. +And thing I suppose. +Well the thing is, I don't think they're gonna put stran , they're not gonna put a stranger over here. +Who don't know the job. +Well, it's a bit risky for security as well isn't it? +Well yeah! +They're not gonna put, they're not gonna put a stranger over here are they? +Really? +I mean they're gonna you know? +I mean, if I sort of just stay for a, for a while but er I've still keep looking for work looking for a job cos I do wanna get away from B T. +The sooner I get away the better! +But I'm not in a hurry at the moment. +So I can't go anywhere anyway. +I wanna erm hopefully er hopefully I can get myself a car once I get the money. +Buy one. +Weren't gonna splash it all out you know? +All at once? +No I wouldn't splash it all out but I'd get quite a bit cos of the twenty years. +I've still got my, er get a car for about a couple of grand. +Get a second hand car for a couple of grand and er I'll still have a little bit. +We might pay some of the mortgage off and er er, if there's any you know, we sort of keep some in there. +Keep some in the +Yeah. +building society. +At least, at least if I had another job you see and er well I'm taking home two hundred odd two hundred pound a week. +Well I worked out a hundred and twenty here and seventy pound pension. +I wouldn't need to touch that money. +That'd still be erm that'd still be in the er still be in the building society could be making me money. +Yeah. +I mean er +You get some er the old interest +There's the +can't you? +Well especially if you put it in your high interest. +Yeah. +Which once I've wo , which I will. +The trouble is with high interest account you can't get the money out very quickly can you? +Ah? +You can't get the money out very quickly. +Just give them plenty of notice like er a month's notice to get the money out. +Oh well, yeah. +That er +So if you need it in a hurry it can be a problem. +Yeah. +Well we could have it in a ordinary account it's sa , still sort of er . +You know? +Just report or not. +I might be able to some in er, in the ordinary account and some in the high interest account. +Yeah. +You could do that can't you? +Oh yeah, split it up as you like! +Oh! +Oh yeah, but er but I'm not in a hurry anyway. +I've got plenty of time. +John! +Right. +Your tea cup got . +How dare you ! +Phone! +Okay, boy +Oy, slaphead! +Me? +Yeah, the chap from Arkworth Generation for you. +Excellent! +I'm not sure this machine the actual driver board can I know. +Yeah. +Because I've been trying to swop between that one and that one. +In that we see the one coloured drive right? +Yeah. +We can re resist the and run from to that copy. +When Bedge got it in I say look le I I wanna swop it see what happen. +And I took, he swop it he he wouldn't three sixty two. +No. +I'm not sure, is it the driver that's the problem or not? +So you may have to ask Norman if it'll now work. +I think we will blame the or th all got in, got in. +We will have some money left behind not a lot. +Cos the machines in my old office all of them, all the five and a quarters agree both types. +And the three and a halfs agreed with seven twenties. +Yeah. +Yeah! +I mean this one can +I mean what is what's the point in a, in a drive that'll rig one point two but not three sixty? +Useless! +And erm the one I got, in there can rig well three sixty K and one point two meg, no problem! +As soon as I charge straight into here, what happen with it? +I think it's something to with the, with the actual er driver board. +Yeah. +And you get all set one wha erm setting. +You gonna have, you can't have a few. +So we may have a, quite another a board or what? +I don't know. +They will let you know. +They'll have to! +If I could get my . +Then I could have that machine and Justy can have mine. +One. +What I'm trying to say is that yo ,i now you gotta order another to , forty six. +How do I know what's having ? +Who's getting the other one then? +I dunno. +Mm. +I have a lot of feeling right? +That's it's . +When these boys has come along and Colin would he look at John and what do boys say? +Well he can't have yours cos he's not doing compiling that +No. +needs fast processing time. +Tony is the one who will definitely jump up and fucking , but I tell him to fuck off! +But Colin I mean +Frank said to you you can have +Yeah. +cos you need it for your work! +Yeah, but Frank did tell me to keep it, keep quiet! +Don't make any don't make war! +I don't know it, so I keep quiet. +Don't make +Yeah but as soon as he walks in here he'll go, ah new machine! +Yeah. +How's that then? +Well you'll have to convince that it's, it's just a three eight six. +Cor God! +That amazes me why people, it's like a status symbol they have to have the best bloody machine! +Well there's no point! +But, I have Bedgey look to be honest right he do more compiling than me. +If he want the forty six , I mean the forty six I give you this. +And he, and he say ah no, but it's alright I got my . +But, he said if if Franky order another one he say, I shall have a forty six. +Be , originally they order two forty sixes one for Colin and one for Andy. +Mm. +But when the money tight and they, they can't get the bloody thing! +Yeah, well you haven't got it yet anyway have you so +Well, I will, I will get it and all the will come in here and we'll hide it or whereby no no, no one will fucking see it! +And go, I set it up all working and there's fuck oh ho! +It is isn't it? +Oh what a pity! +Can you stick in that box? +But the thing is, they look so different. +Don't they? +And like Ian's four eight sixes, it's so different to one of those it's not like you can get away with it. +Completely different, re-designed box and everything. +You still using that monitor? +No. +Wo , have a look at this monitor? +Ay? +Come here, it's your monitor, everything. +So I can have that monitor with that machine, ha? +Yeah, you, you can get everything. +Oh right. +But we asked erm Colin,di did he want a monitor? +And he say no! +Mm. +Th , the super V G A is better than the, just the V G A. +They can give you twe , two hundred two hundred and er, fifty six colour. +So +Is this V G A or E G A? +That's a Philips, a V G A. +Is it? +It's a normal, it's like your one, it's normal V G A. +Oh! +Sixteen colour. +If you open tha ,ma my window, the picture is compared with the wha you put in there . +Oh yeah. +So I don't know what is going on! +So I'm not over exciting . +A Bloody politics place ! +Well you got a valid reason for having a fast machine. +Right! +I better get the out then. +And my bloody ! +Ow! +Well, and I put an order in to buying erm two more of these five and a quarter inch. +It'll rebo +Mm? +That will,wi tha tha will rebo soft. +Yeah, but I think th , probably the thing with number +Then the driver innit? +Well if it can't, it can't. +Yeah well there's a problem with that because they might be on different project number mighten they? +Yeah but doesn't matter! +In this group, doesn't matter. +In other group, maybe. +Mm. +In this group ,. +So if you want a se see er er a normal reception you want some some level if you want what? +One. +If you wanna thick one want a monitor this way,, but not a lot. +So you don't wanna put all that in. +But it does or some order. +But whereas anyone order from this company say well what do you want? +Do you want a big one or a small one? +If you want a huge order oh you can look for your own. +When Len sent them a five pound order, or ten pound +Mm. +you can leave that . +Th there is a if there is work in our group, no problem! +As soon as we've been , all been +We'll have to write that one with a indelible pen. +Yes. +You only get on go at it as well. +So that is +I dunno, you get it off with spirit I suppose. +Maybe, I think you can get erm erm in, what they done on Norman's they're using a tape. +A tape? +Oh that's messy! +Er well if you're gonna draw the line I mean I mean it's bloody we know what who's in, who's out. +Yeah. +Yeah, have a chat with Norman. +Okay. +The only problem is, I dunno if there's a mistake on this but this modem box right? +Is one six one and this is it's ha! +You're hoping! +Yeah. +It's not going into anything is it? +No, it isn't, it's not got a socket or anything right? +It'll have +Norm! +Yeah. +it'll have four +How do you change +Look likes the actual box is one six one, this is one sixty right? +Yeah. +Cos I put erm +So that's gonna be a bit small, but +a dimension in there. +we're not gonna have these connectors on so we all can do whatever size we want really can't we? +Yeah. +Talk to me! +Cli ,wha what's the depth? +The depth is erm +six four one. +four one. +So how big's that? +That will take us is it clear up +Oh right! +to there, to here. +Erm +Yeah, okay. +Well what we can do +No, what we'll do first ride +is put in a connector, you know those connectors? +Yeah. +That these fellers are on? +Yeah. +You can get them with long pins each si have them standing up the board and then you have another board, a board with a so you can +That's what I was saying! +cut the pillars those there. +Perhaps, yeah we might find that by the time we got to might not be able to get it all on. +Cos that is like a sixth of the area isn't it? +What we'll do alright? +Mhm. +I reckon . +If we erm I'll get a if I got time today. +Alright? +Yeah, so basically +Then, yeah, we'll just try and get through today. +Start , see what the actually gonna do. +Yeah, like , yeah? +I mean all the chips will fit, but you gotta . +Am I that boring Frank? +I didn't +Yeah ! +say anything you know! +No, not half! +I didn't. +But I di , I didn't realise that I thought you were actually. +How old did you think I am? +What an insult! +Erm +He's not that old are you? +No, no . +I suppose about be erm fifty nine. +No, no no no, I'm . +Erm, so you had to have didn't you? +Erm, I , yes. +Yeah,yo , we well we won't do that . +Erm, I probably do all that but I don't . + +How are you? +Fine, thank you. +I've got a +Find your +headache, but +Surviving? +I feel a lot better. +Oh well. +I went for a walk out this morning but I just couldn't stand it. +No. +it's no good I'm gonna have to go out for a breath of fresh air. +I'm better going +do you? +But I've got to be honest with you you know. +No +So he says I'm going out +I said oh I feel I'm going out for half an hour that's all. +Yeah +I can't see the pleasure you know. +So you seem a lot better +Got a lot of washing to do lie down +Yeah he'd like that. +Yeah, he'd like that. +I know but I thought +So I've bit busy with other things anyway. +I thought what I'd do was I'd have a bath, I thought I'd put all the back in the fridge +Yeah. +and I've gotta put that erm on tonight as well. +Yeah. +So that might be as well. +Yeah. +See I don't feel as I did last night but it's still there, you know I just take some more tablets like, you know. +Yeah. +But er +Nearly getting rid of it +but I've really cracked it and it's bloody awful! +It does +No +oh aye, it does. +Really cold, really, it's horrible! +We didn't do him any good at all. +Telling me he got six points for a driving convic for er speeding conviction +Halfords I should think +Oh right! +When he got erm +Oh +Smell it. +See if it smells alright +Got any +Oh +We have to that's why +Aye +Mm +Too much +I got your er table things. +They do them in packs of fifty but in +Oh +a split pack I got sixty. +That should be enough, shouldn't it? +Oh +Or did I get seventy? +I think I got seventy just to be sure. +I thought sixty +Oh alright. +That's alright. +was enough so I got seventy +Oh right. +cos there's only fifty +Yeah. +So I got seventy. +As I said, they do, they must do them themselves and sell +Oh right. +They've got a well in that shop. +Oh have they? +Yeah. +It's all bricked up. +What else you've been doing? +Oh I've done a bit of drawing. +you wanna get your hair cut while you're there +Yeah. +Yeah, I ought to go and get changed +Yeah, well don't stand about +Yeah, that's alight. +I'll get +Oh yes. +changed. +I'll just leave them ticking over then? +Yeah. +I won't be long. +Yeah, okay. +Just go and get myself changed. +Yeah, I mean you see works' vans all over the place regular. +Yeah. +Naughty boys! +I never thought about that. +ha oh. +Not if they keep his licence. +No. +Speeding. +Dangerous driving. +Dangerous driving cos he made the old woman give over and overtook somewhere totally stupid and probably find he had no brake. +He was slowing down anyway! +What are we gonna do? +It's spitting and spotting innit? +Yeah. +Fancy having another cup of tea? +Yeah. +That's if you look at it, like, you only get two chances at speeding now. +Mm. +Which is harder than it used to be. +Must've been four then wasn't it? +Yeah. +Three points +Like you get four gos. +Yeah, that'd be right. +Get one more go than you used to now you get one left. +Tightened up on that, haven't they? +Mm. +Don't half your er insurance now, don't it? +You get +Yep. +a speeding doesn't, never did anyway, bother them. +No. +Not unless you had a dangerous driving or something with it. +But er losing your licence always has bothered them, hadn't it? +Mm. +That's always cost you. +is there? +A very old Granada +Mm. +way back +Aye. +Ah, yes it is +Yeah. +Yeah. +Probably buy +Hundred quid. +Hundred quid +Yeah. +Aye. +And he had a dangerous driving or a speeding I think it is +Mm. +horrendous insurance bill +He says I can't afford scrap. +Cost him more. +Cost him about six or seven hundred quid a year. +Cheaper to buy a blimming er cheaper to insure a car wouldn't it? +Mm. +Oh +no matter what he gets, it's always over five hundred quid cos he's he's +Yeah. +lost his licence in the past and you know, when he was a kid like +Mm. +and all that +Takes a long while before they forget about that, doesn't it? +Yeah. +Making himself an extra five hundred pound a year for er having been a naughty boy when he was a teenager. +Mm. +That's what it's about now, innit? +Yeah. +It's all the +He is actually quite sane now though. +Yeah, well it's like this fellow that got done for speeding. +When did he get done? +Er Thur no Wednesday. +sat there watching them catch him up he didn't see them before they got him stopped like. +Saw them catch him up coming along with all their blue lights thinking . +They'd been in er garage at bottom. +Mm. +Aye. +We'd had a little car before he got there. +He said are you speaking to the no, no,around town he says, I don't mind doing a bit more, you know, out and about not much about they just sat in the traffic, you know. +Mm +but erm so had it been a Foxhalls, something about a minute no, he said only for about a mile, that was it. +I said oh, about forty seconds and he sort of looked. +I says well, at sixty you do a mile in a minute. +So I said if it's only for a mile it's going to be well less than a minute at eighty, presuming you were doing more than thereabouts and er that was it. +But the car, he'd er he says oh that was funny he says, I blew past him, popped into fourth, I blew past him real easy going up the . +Come out at Foxhalls at forty, I think he did. +He can come through Foxhall like and he, he'd had to speed up he says and then he says he didn't carry on, like. +He hadn't been doing and er reckon he and er think I'm and that was it so right Been driving since he was nineteen +two or three months ago, I think it was. +I remember him saying once before I don't, I don't know what and er he says it's only a fortnight ago since you know . +You get done for, pulled up for speeding or parking or something and you can pay your own fine . +So I went home, anybody gonna pay me fine? +He says I am gonna cop it off me mother cop it of his mother. +You're always going too fast! +I told you before! +He says me dad al me dad was always speeding he, he used to go mad! +Mm. +slow down. +Yeah obviously watching wasn't, wasn't watching his mirror very hard. +He hadn't seen copper trying to get him caught up, I wonder how much he was using mirror when he was overtaking people? +Mm, yeah. +Whether he was just watching what was coming from the front. +Mm saw him coming have to get it cos Neil's mum was cross about it. +Oh well he was only just finding out what the rules were. +There was a gang of us chatting with him. +I come up with six points. +That made his day. +He says have I got a fixed penalty? +I says only got a pink form if you've got a fixed penalty. +Know somebody who got one, like. +No, only a bloke I've never seen one had one. +Yeah, that'd be Richard. +Mm only he's got to take his licence and insurance in. +As to what happens now he says I've to go to Magistrate's Court so it's just beginning to sink in that it's gonna cost him some brass and it's going to be serious. +One of them there was of the opinion who could quite easily lose his licence for it. +Like he got done +What he do? +Run a Chief Constable over? +No! +No, he got done for speeding. +He was over the, over the limit and had a small quantity of drugs with it. +Don't think he'd actually taken them but he had as a +Mm. +possession. +They did him about eight hundred pounds in motoring offences +Aye. +Phew! +Speeding while slightly over the limit it was. +Him having speed having, having speed . +Oh god! +Mm Where's today? +Dunno. +He started to come over, didn't he? +Yeah. +they don't come any worse get a cup of tea in between, weren't we? +Mm. +I don't think it would've bothered us when it was spitting and spotting if we'd actually been out there, would it, it's just setting off in it. +Aye, yeah. +Blue sky! +I can see a bit of blue up there. +today? +No +if you were off to do something and being mucked around for the day, innit? +Mm +Took my a long while ago. +Not surprised to see them now. +Only ran out a month ago! +Just as well so late I've been waiting for to come. +I got some here come in this morning she says, they ran out beginning of September last year. +We hadn't thought about it. +I thought I was late. +Mine have been in, oh, I don't know! +A good month! +Innit? +A slightly bigger like a fish box +Or what? +Lobster pots making a smell. +yeah, don't, I know name when it come up like that. +Anyway we can sort the problem because you'll take them back a won't you?put them outside your house, creating a smell they were playing up. +Pretty fair stack of them I should think, wasn't there? +Mhm. +Don't know if the son's got out yet. +Been doing time. +Aye. +I don't know +They didn't catch him +He had an argument with a kid, two or three years ago +Aye. +and er they set off in hot pursuit. +It was in back of a pick-up. +Driving through with a shotgun shooting the guy +Still in the back of a pick-up shooting over the roof, like? +Yeah. +Oh! +They didn't get him for that one? +Blimming good job! +No, they just got him for beating somebody. +Bloody good job. +You'd think after that one they'd have thrown the keys away for that. +Mm. +The kid hadn't done much +Get an extra two years for missing. +the kid hadn't done much, I mean it was nowt serious . +You know I had a moving traffic accident +Yeah +wasn't trucking there, you know or owt like that. +No sense of humour. +Got brought a pushbike wheel the other day. +Can you get the cogs off that? +Why? +Well they go a lot better on that bike of mine. +I don't think so. +Oh pity. +So what you've done to bend the wheel? +I haven't. +The gaffer knocked somebody off their pushbike, had to buy him a new wheel and some compensation +Scrounge the wheel! +How do you get them off? +He says you go to a pushbike shop and get special tools. +Ring spanner things with the +Mm. +keys on the outside pumps and things on it to I wouldn't bother. +A new set of back cogs for bike's only about seven quid. +A brand new set and they come with the ra with the, erm free wheel and everything all in like, just screw them on. +Go to a pushbike shop they whip them off and whip them on for you you buy, you know, if you go out and buy one then just take wheel with you they'll stick them straight on. +Mm that fellow don't go to the police. +Lucky to get away with having to buy him a wheel compensation +Unusual innit. +It's very expensive that's why it's unusual. +Sixty nine ninety nine. +is that all right? +It is done isn't It? +why have you got that on your head. +What's it doing take it off. +Oh yeah. +take it off +Mm. +take it off I don't like it, take it off +What? +What's wrong with you? +What? +What? +He's bloody mad, he's potty, off his rocker. +Where did you get it? +Get what? +The thing. +Well why +Well why do you need it, why do you need a towel? +Why do you need a towel. +Why er why +game. +Mum and Dad's got it. +Come on Mum. +Go get in the blooming bath. +Why? +I'll rewi rewind that actually heard what you say, you must be very naughty and nasty thing to be to your son. +I can't have a sweet then. +Well you're not give me a sweet an all. +Should give me a sweet you know. +You should. +You're gonna turn it off because I wanna tear you off a strip about something. +Me? +Yeah. +Why? +What are we talking about? +Mum what's Hamlet about? +Pardon? +What's Hamlet about? +Hamlet? +Yes. +I don't know much about Shakespeare, the only play I've seen is Romeo and Juliet and A Midsummer Night's Dream. +to er see Rome and Juliet. +Mm. +And I think I need to make it up. +When is +I dunno. +Well you better find out then. +What do ya mean I alw I'm only saying it cos I got +Well no if you can go. +You give me the money for it? +If it's within reason as I assume it will be. +Five Pounds. +That's okay. +W would it make much difference for you lending me the money. +Not a lot. +Well there's a quite a bit of difference between five and fifty isn't there and the one thing is for your educational needs and the other I'm so convinced about. +Well +Yeah. +I thought a computer +No, but I know that you're dying to have a computer, and if money was no object, then we probably wouldn't hesitate in lending it to you, but really and truly at this moment things are tight and we can't afford to commit ourselves with things unless it's absolutely necessary. +Well +And that's it, I mean I've made it as plain as I can. +That is it and I hate it when you keep on and on nagging. +I won't go and see Romeo and Juliet. +Well don't go, it's not my fault if you don't pass your exams. +All right. +Did you watch that animated version that you recorded. +Yeah. +Does it give you the gist of the story? +It,half an hour long. +Well I think it's longer than half an hour. +They probably should +an hour at the most. +Given you er erm +The film is about hour and five minutes. +You can probably have a video of it as long of another version. +Well it's does help to see different versions because you see that different people interpret the +Why do you +Mm? +Well it depends on the people who are producing or directing or whatever, so it's all got different ways of doing it. +When I was studying I went to Open Air Theatre and I saw a version there on Christopher er what's his name that chubby fellow with the glasses Christopher Biggins that's it. +He was playing Puck and when I went to see the Company doing it well they had a completely different way of doing it, they wo they did it really like er a dec you know the the mechanical play, I don't know if you know A Midsummer Night's Dream. +They did it in a completely slapstick farce way you know th the men who were dressed up women they balloons and had rosy red cheeks and wigs and things, it was quite different. +How they +Well that's it, when Shakespeare wrote a play and the text has survived and , but the way of of joshing the people on the way they do it is different every generation and even most of the people in the same generation would would have a different way of doing it. +Okay. +There's a comedienne erm she apparently was born in Wales. +Mhm. +Two Ton Tessie O'Shea that's her. +Two Ton Tessie? +She yeah, that's her her nickname, cos she was quite big and she played the nurse in Romeo and Juliet in the season on Stratford on Avon and she did it using a Welsh accent because she thought Shakespeare, having coming from quite near the Welsh Border Country might well have had might well have had a Welsh nurse. +So it didn't matter that Romeo and Juliet is set in Italy. +Mm. +She did it as she would have thought Shakespeare would have known people and things, you know, she did it like that. +Mm. +And I remember Amanda seeing a video of Romeo and Juliet +And what struck me was that the costumes were all sort of like you see portraits of Elizabethan dress. +Now I don't what Italy and those Middle Ages would have been like, that the sort of clothes that were worn. +Mhm. +But the clothing in that film struck me very much as being like Elizabethan dress. +Yeah, I mean now plays of Shakespeare and they're wearing modern dress like those worn at Richard the Third or something and they're wearing well either First or Second World War uniforms. +Yes. +It was very different then. +Yeah, well it's just different directors have different things they want to emphasise in a play and if they want to bring something home or they think that using a certain well like say the way the people are dressed and everything will will have more of an impact, you know will +One thing I was wondering about you know they they talk about erm in Shakespeare's works is the language the words he uses, the the sort of poetry of it and the symbolism that's used. +Erm do they talk about that at all in your English Literature +Yes. +Do they show you how you can learn about this, there's a book you know the book I bought you it's got notes in it. +Does that help with it? +I suppose +Pardon? +Well you should do. +And what about I bought some revision books and things study aids or something for Amanda for her English literature +Well I bought them for Amanda and she was doing Romeo and Juliet. +So if you look in those you may find there's some help there. +Yeah. + +Is there any more last minute entry for the quiz? +Okay, sit, sit still, be quiet and listen to this, you ready? +Question one which of Britain's colonies is most populated? +Okay if it's any help just look at the opening +tonight, nothing tricky that, it's just er which of Britain's colonies is the most populated? +Question two, which city did Lady Godiva ride naked through the streets of? +I'm sure you know the story, which city did Lady Godiva ride naked through the streets of? +Coventry. +And number three whose was the signet ring which is sometimes known as the fisherman's ring? +Okay, whose was the signet ring sometimes known as the fisherman's ring? +Question four, fashion model and T V presenter Marie Helvin was married to which famous photographer? +Maybe if you think along the lines of fashion +That's the only one I know +er +I'm not supposed to give clues, okay fashion model and T V presented Marie Helvin was once married to which famous photographer? +I can see we're having difficulty with these questions no it's just the answers, okay, question five, now this one's easy if you're a surgery, if you have a tracheotomy, where would you show off the scar? +Okay +The neck +if you've had a tracheotomy where would you show off the scar? +Question six okay for anybody who's interested in eating, as we are, pate de foie gras is made from what? +Right we'll be even more specific right, a help for ya, pate de foie gras is made from the liver of what? +Right, can't get any easier than that do you want it again? +Right, okay question number seven +which substance used to be known as brimstone? +Okay it's, shall we say a mineral? +I shall +which substance used to be known as brimstone? +she's giggling again, what the questions are a bit difficult? +No, too easy, question eight, in Britain we play draughts what do the Americans call the game? +Checkers. +Okay +in Britain we play draughts, what do the Americans call the same game? +Brimstone I dunno what it is +Question nine, M G sports cars, famous in Britain, what does the M G stand for? +I think everybody knows M G sports cars, what does the M G stand for? +And question ten in medical terms tetanus is better known by what name? +Okay to you and me tetanus is known by what? +question eleven, what is the length of time of an association football match? +Okay +Ninety minutes. +an F A football match, what is the length of time of an F A football match? +question twelve who hosts the T V programme, sorry T V quiz The Krypton Factor? +who hosts the T V quiz The Krypton Factor? +number thirteen, okay I'll be very surprised if you don't know this one, who painted the Mona Lisa? +again, who painted the Mona Lisa? +question fourteen Middlesex Street in London has a very famous market, okay, better known as which market? +Middlesex Street in London has a very famous market and the street's better known by this name, what is it? +and question fifteen, right listen carefully +which of the following names is not a bone in the body a femur, patella, radius, cornea or temporal +Cornea. +so you've got a choice of five, one of them is not a bone, which is it? +Femur, patella, radius, cornea or temporal +It's radius innit? +Final section questions sixteen to twenty +question sixteen which country is the world's leading coffee producer? +Okay, I've said go for the obvious ones didn't I? +Which country is the world's leading +Could be +coffee producer? +either Brazil +or Kenya +Question seventeen +Coffee producer +the Pyrenees mountain range lies between which two countries? +Okay and we want 'em both no half points for this +What is it? +The Pyrenees mountain range lies between which two countries? +Question eighteen, in which book would you find the character Long John Silver? +Desert Island er not Desert Island +okay, in which book would you find the character Long John Silver? +Question nineteen which letter of the English language is most used? +E +Which letter of the English language is the one we use most? +I'd say E +I don't know +And finally question twenty, which country uses the Drachma as its unit of +Greece +currency? +Okay again, the final question number twenty, which country uses the Drachma as its unit of currency? +Cross it out you plonker +Question six, pate de foie gras is made form the liver of, okay literary of a fat goose, but we accepted goose alright, so pate de foie gras from a goose liver. +Question seven, which substance used to be known as Brimstone? +That's sulphur +I'd erm cod liver oil. +question eight, in Britain we play the game draughts, in America the same game is called checkers er, number nine, one or two of you got it right, most of you caught out with M G sports cars, the M G actually stands for Morris Garages +Ah got that one +oh shit +Okay, you got half, you got Morris, question ten, tetanus is better known by what name to you and me it's lock jaw, at least if you've ever had it, it is, question eleven +what is the length of time of an of an F A football match? +Ninety minutes, excluding injury time and all that stuff, ninety minutes, question twelve, who hosts the T V quiz The Krypton Factor?, that's Gordon Burns question thirteen, who painted the Mona Lisa? +Leonardo de Vinci fourteen, Middlesex Street in London has a very famous market lends its name to the street it's Petticoat Lane question fifteen, which of them is not a bone, okay, we, we asked you which of these is not a bone, a femur, a patella, radius, cornea or temporal, the one is cornea, that's part, that's part of the eye question sixteen, which country is the world's leading coffee producer? +I said go for the obvious one Brazil question seventeen, the Pyrenees mountain range lies between which two countries? +France and Spain, okay, if you only got one of those countries right we couldn't give you the point, it has to be both, question eighteen, in which book would you find the character Long John Silver? +Treasure Island + +And carry on just as if er we were proceeding immediately after the proposed excellent introduction and as if the intervening weeks just hadn't occurred. +When this matter was discussed at housing committee, I believe it's only last week but it seems a lot longer ago, I spoke at some length about the errors and fallacies in the report arguing against a case that officers have put forward, pointing out mistakes and erroneous conclusions that seem to have been drawn from some very flimsy evidence. +I promised members after that erm meeting that er I would bring forward different arguments tonight and that is exactly what I hope to do. +I want to speak on only one angle and that is capital. +Now most large businesses actually need capital. +They need it to finance new projects and which they ultimately hope those projects will bring in a profit on the capital employed. +But once employed as capital that money stays there, it's stuck and hopefully it earns money but it's stuck there forever until the sale of that asset is is a achieved. +Many companies when needing to finance new projects have to raise more capital. +This is often done by obtaining money in the form of loans, venture capital guarantees and that sort of effort. +But if those forms of capital aren't available then the business has to raise capital by some other means and this is very often done by liquidated assets that they currently hold and releasing the capital for the new project. +So the use of capital is fluid, right, it it's in a state of dynamic equilibrium as a biologist would be prepared to call it. +And it is not it is not fixed it is not fixed or in geological terms, petrified. +We in this council operate . +We in this council operate a housing business with an annual turnover in excess of twenty four million pounds. +Anyone who says we are not operating a business is deluding themselves. +We have an acknowledged need to invest more capital to provide more housing for the most needy in our population. +The way it is at present, we cannot , we cannot get more loot to put into the new project but the bank manager, i.e. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, reminded us a few months ago that the other way of funding our projects he encouraged us to look at our current assets and if possible liquidate some of that asset and fund it, or or use it to fund our new schemes and this Mr Mayor is what we should be doing. +We must sell some of our houses and use the money we gain from that to fund the provision of new housing in the City. +To miss out on the opportunity afforded to us by the Chancellor of the Exchequer is to deny those in the greatest housing need the opportunity to get decent low cost housing. +So my the, in my mind the best way forward is for this council to promote the right to buy and I fully support this motion and I would urge members of this council to ignore the report that comes back from the housing committee. +Thank you Mr Mayor. +Thank you Mr Mayor erm a week is a quite a long time in housing but er er +especially housing finance terms, I mean the system's probably gonna change again by, you know, by that sort of time. +I think it's quite remarkable er that Councillor can come along and blindly say, well we've had a report back to housing committee, housing committee's considered this matter and the vast majority of people found it fairly unacceptable but we'll ignore that, we'll ignore that, fine, well I s'pose if you want to ignore it that's fine but I think w we do face here a a key issue and the issue of capital receipts, as you rightly say, is an important one. +Now question is whether or not there is a simple ability to realise a capital receipt and use it I think, and if that were true, if what you're saying is true and there was some net gain to be made very easily then I think we would have a hard time, perhaps, refusing what you're saying. +But it isn't true. +That's the whole point. +It is not a simple case that we can run along, sell a few houses, get the capital receipts and suddenly we can go off and have a wonderful programme and replace the assets which we have sold and when we're talking about assets in this case I think there's one crucial difference between us and you and that is we recognise that that isn't just an asset it is a person's home a person's home, that's so important an a I'm, just to talk about it as if it is is something else, y'know, just some petrified lump of cattle, petrified lump of stock money that was doing no good whatsoever, is a nonsense and I think most of us would agree that it is a complete and utter nonsense. +Anyway why, why can't we easily use these capital receipts? +Well there are a number of reasons, some of which are specific to the Cambridge to the context of this authority. +As you will be well aware, as a member of housing committee, we do actually have faced a substantial crisis in terms of the availability of land which we can make available for building, that is one of the problems, possibly a short term problem, but nonetheless one of the problems key ones, which we face here. +So we can't just realise the asset, dash out and build a house through a housing association because we have this crucial land problem. +Now if our assets if by promoting the right to buy, by having capital receipts we seem to have a large balance building up, there is the distinct risk given the sort of policies that this government has pursued over time of a we will be running a risk there, we don't know what they're going to do, you don't know what they're going to do. +But let's face it I mean if a lot of local authorities are in similar sorts of positions and a lot of balances are building up, well the money just might run away mightn't it it's happened before, I think it might happen again. +I mean I don't, I don't believe that your government is stupid er it may be immoral on occasions, it may be wrong but I don't believe it's necessarily stupid. +They've had a long time to crack a lot of these problems pardon +What's the evidence? +Well admit I I cannot actually bring an evidence at this point in time to support that er, that er er assertion. +So if you were serious about promoting social housing over time what you would be working for is not a stop go economy in housing, not a stopped go regime in terms of halas housing finance, but a stable, a long term commitment towards er er a financial regime that will actually bring that housing through and that is something you have not done. +I mean the autumn statement blindly goes a hundred percent to a hundred percent use of capital receipts. +It just as go back. +Now that's no way no way to run the railway I was gonna say but that's probably probably not the best choice of words in the present circumstances. +But it isn't, it isn't a way to actually run a decent social housing programme. +We need stability over the medium term at the very least in order to produce the units that we need, not this sort of one minute you're off, one minute you're not and again, if you were serious the resources were already there, there in terms of the capital receipts that people already had. +You could've let us use some of that eight, over eight million pounds that we have stuffed away, set aside to actually promote our social housing programme. +So basically, I don't think that it is a simple picture of being able to get a capital receipt and go out and use it. +There will be occasions where indeed if people ar people in marginal circumstances are encouraged to buy then we will find, as the local authorities, that they will not be able to raise a mortgage in in in the private sector and we will actually have to supply the mortgage ourselves so where's the capital receipt gone? +It's disappeared really hasn't it? +Because we we've had to provide mortgage. +So, time and time again, when you actually look at it, when you actually look at this position that we find ourselves in, there isn't an easy receipt to be made that can be used that actually provided what the business is about. +Alright it you wanna call it a business the business is about provide social housing to answer housing need in this town. +I don't actually really believe at the end of the day that that is something you that is rightly called business. +It is a service, we are engaged in providing a housing service to answer housing need. +What we plead with the government all the time is allow us a regime, a financial regime, that is reasonable and stable in order to do that. +Let us not be fooled by short termism met by silly schemes that somehow promise an Eldorado which doesn't exist. +Thank you. +. +Erm,. +Yes Mr Mayor. +I am very intrigued by councillor 's analogy with this counc er count er housing services by this council being a business and the Chancellor of the Exchequer being some kind of bank manager. +I mean how many bank managers b force their businesses to sell off their fixed assets at a colossal discount for heavens sake. +I mean if this is the way bank managers operate up and down the country no wonder the economy's in a mess. +businesses are going bust all the over place. +Actually erm although councillor is quite correct that we're providing a service, erm in some ways it would be nice if the government did give us the freedom to operate our business as we choose to do so. +We would therefore be able to provide a much better service. +Now it's perfectly now the cost er the benefits from sort of marketing right to buy is really very, very dubious erm the government has shown time and again that what it takes then gives with one hand, it takes away with another and the costs are obvious, we are fragmenting our housing stock, we are putting it, we are likely to end up with more and more with a higher proportion of poor properties and erm there's also the risk that if we do really have to be promoting right to buy we're going to have people who are probably not sure whether they can afford to buy their house or aren't sure whether they even want to buy their house. +I think they should be treated as adults and allowed to make that decision for themselves. +There's n I doubt if there are any tenants who aren't aware of their right to buy and there's there are in fact plenty of private mortgage lenders around ready to sort erm try and persuade tenants that they can go ahead and buy their homes. +I really don't think there is any point to this motion. +Frankly I think from our colleagues in the conservative party shouldn't really be wasting our time here with these silly motions, erm what's needed is if you're gonna improve the housing situation in the city and in the country as a whole, we need to be allowed to use our capital receipts, all the ones we've piled up, and we need to also inject money into the national economy to build new homes and incidentally to get the economy moving again and start bringing down the level of unemployment. +So our colleagues shouldn't be wasting our time, they should be using their own party's internal democracy, there is if there is such a thing. +To change the government's the policy if that's what one calls it, it seems to change from year to year. +Thank you. +Here, here +chair committee. +Thank you Mr Mayor. +Mr Mayor er I don't want to be long in this debate because I'm sure we've probably all made up our minds exactly what we're going to vote on because long evenings it stretches and turns +would like to say er er and that is though councillor urges us to be more totally er which went on the housing committee I think it would be very wrong of us to do that, leaving that er the vote at the end of that particular debate was unrelated to and er these democracy that's er situation. +Erm, I think it's worth saying that er us j just reiterating on what councillor has just said and that is that I think most tenants are very well aware of the right to buy and er er the motion being unnecessary but what happens with the motion is that it possibly attracts people who really in many ways cannot actually afford to buy er to take advantage of their rights but who might be persuaded by very persuasive tactics to do so. +Now er they are then in a situation perhaps often those people who are er less financially well off and sometimes in jobs which this particular might very well lose tomorrow erm their in a difficult situation as far as paying back mortgages is concerned. +It's worth also noting at this point that if you are a tenant and renting and you lose your job you are eligible for housing benefit, erm if you if you were er buying your house, although you do get some er er you get the interest I believe on your mortgage paid, there are lots of other things that do not get paid but the thing is that if you have a reduction in your income which might happen where one partner say lost a job, er you s you're eligible for housing benefit but you get nothing as far as company paid mortgage is concerned. +So on that ground I feel would be very worried by by promoting the right to buy, erm I've said everything I want to I didn't really want to elongate this this er this debate and I think it's but I think, I don't believe that Councillor mentioned the the the er the . +We were talking I think this is the thing about clawback, er this year our erm receipts taken into account are two point three eight million as opposed to last year er this is taken into account we drew four hundred and seventy five thousand, that's a huge jump erm the government by in telling us we can send this er this er what I call minuscule carrot erm this year er the capital receipts from November last year until December next year erm a anyone had undoubtedly for most of that back in the in in the use er er a grant and I think it, as the government have actually kept extremely quiet on this subject, that seemed to be the scenario that seems most likely to happen. +I think our erm . +all those in favour. +A couple of points I'd like to respond to councillors . +Firstly I have never seen a more clearer er grant from the government to actually let you build houses this year, this is whole point of th th this should happen and if we don't take it up I believe that in future years to come we shall regret it very, very strongly indeed. +As far as promotion is concerned, yes I will not deny every tenant probably knows about the right to buy but then everybody knows there are mars bars and mars bars spend millions of pounds promoting their product. +You have to y y y you have to promote the product to make people buy it. +I'm following on from that. +Of course people must be advised carefully but it shows great lack of faith in human na in their abilities and a great arrogance on our part Mr Mayor if we fail to market the ideas simply because we don't feel the populus are competent to understand it. +If we fail to take this opportunity Mr Mayor, as I as I feel we are about to do I am a hundred percent convinced that in years to come people will look back at this year, or however long it happens to be and say they missed out on a golden opportunity to make social, to make more houses and to make social housing better in this city and across the country. +I very much hope that you will in fact support the motion as originally intended. +Could I just point out that councillor that contrary to call my bluff, deviation and repetition are no grounds for allowing allowing . +All those in favour of the proposals please show and all those against. +I now turn to the adoption minutes of city hall and now it is a process of in that city hall did not endorse a recommendation from the finance panel, the budget that came from finance panel erm so we are in the slightly unusual position of having to debate the proposals of finance panel as we were recommended to do by city hall, erm that means as I understand it that er the chair of city hall will now present the annual budget statement erm and since he is going to do that in a form of an amendment er that seven other unusual features about the way in which we would normally do it which would mean that there would be er a budget statement and where there would then be the the formal proposals and amendments themself, erm so what I would propose is to try and make sure that everybody has, has maximum opportunity to have their say erm because no two amendments can be on the floor at one time er to take what the leader of the council said first of all erm then to allow the other two leaders to present their budget alternatives as it were, without it be, this is just not didn't take it at that point if they don't want to. +But to present the full scenario and then vote er on the the different items er so that voting is done on items on the amendment before we then proceed er if you want to we just have to go to amendments to that because of course no two amendments can be on the floor at the same time. +Er, what I would prefer to do is to er listen to the amendment put forward by the as if that were an amendment to the adoption minute since there's nothing to be adopted at the moment, erm I will then speak on that amendment, well I would probably speak against it erm at that point er there could be a vote on that amendment line by line. +When that vote is finished er there there's then the opportunity for further amendment. +Absolutely. +A a a and that i i if that's sort of what you're saying. +That that that's exactly what I was, I was . +Mr Mayor on on a point of order Mr Mayor er standing order sixty two refers explicitly to community charge or the poll tax, I think that before we move into this debate we should amend that so that it does refer to the council tax which is what we will be debating. +to my left has anything to say on the subject. +My only slight reservation is whether it's possible to have,t t to move an amendment to standing order . +Can, can we take that as being unanimous? +Yes. +Good, good. +Thank you very much. +Leader of the councils. +We have known for a number of years that we with every other council in the land, are facing the government that does not believe in local government. +That believes that local councils should operate services, should do it at the dictate of the department of the environment and indeed it's regrettable that we are surrounded by some local authorities who feel that their world is precisely that. +Far be it for me to mention Huntingdon district council but that is one which +immediately leaps to mind. +The fact that their citizens leak into the city to avail themselves of our facilities is something that we might deal with in another sphere, even on day residents were seen to attend the theatre in this town recently, erm unfortunately this authority doesn't see fit to actually subsidise the theatre. +However,it is that means that over the last few years every time we have actually debated about budget we recognised that the force had unwillingly and against the judgement of the majority of this council, not necessarily er bounded by political affiliation, we have to be getting down further and further towards the completely inaccurate expanded spending assessment that is assessed as necessary for the needs of this city by the department of the environment. +Now clearly this is a process that is going to continue this year. +We had originally intended to freeze our budget at precisely the level that it has been at the last two years for a variety of reasons we have decided that it is sensible to actually bring it down yet further. +There are two reasons for this. +Firstly the process of moving down towards our S S A needs to be facilitated because my own instinct is that the government, faced with all sorts of financial tribulations, is going to take a harder and harder nosed attitude towards local government expenditure, as it will unfortunately with an awful lot of the rest of what we have come to expect over the decades to be the responsibility of central government, clearly the current expenditure review is going to have some nasty shocks in it for consumers of account services, consumers of other assets of the welfare state but particularly I would suspect, the local government. +Additionally however, we need to make it clear that when we have looked at the figures and I would pay some to the opposition for bringing er some matters to our attention, erm and looking at the way in which very, very careful on the part of this council has led to a better reserve position than we would previously have expected. +There is a sense of which that good housekeeping with the inevitable consequences of government policy can be, can be in terms if you like, or benefits to the council tax payers, who have after all in a under the complete disaster of the poll tax which nobody but nobody in this chamber I suspect knew more unless there is at least one partisan tory who will try to save it, it was really a wonderful experiment and it's a shame it didn't continue. +On that basis we have an amendment to the budget as presented to the finance panel and as the Mayor explained . +If I can talk immediately to scope of that amendment before moving on to some points about the budget . +With regard to the first lies my group has come to the conclusion that there is a way in which the employment development budget can be augmented to specifically reserve at least the part of the current posish provision provided by the cooperative development erm we stand by our opinion that there are ways in which that service can be more efficiently administered that this is a sensible way forward. +With regard to the contingency contingency is something which has often been a matter of debate within this council. +It has been a matter of debate because there are those in the council who feel that if you put in a contingency provision it will be spent whether it's needed or not. +There are many of us who feel that it is sheer wilfulness if one assumes that there will be no contingency in the course of the year that needs to be budget . +This year might represent a compromise with regard to the those two opposition positions which again I would suggest are something that perhaps owes more to than it does to actual political affiliation. +The regard to the job evaluation budget suggests that our original figure of a hundred thousand pounds is not fully necessary and that can all be reduced to fifty percent, to fifty percent or the equivalent say to fifty thousand pounds and the same goes for the judgement with regard to how you are going to have figure with regard to jobs vacancies. +That will bring the eventual budget down a fine tune particularly with regard to er recommendations of the housing committee with regard er to the erm which clearly there will be some people. +What we have done is to suggest that we actually need a lower budget than we had originally assessed. +This is in line with the obvious policy, not just of the ruling group, but I suspect of the council as a whole that we know that sooner or later courtesy of this government, whether we like it or not we are going to have to get down to our standard spending assessment. +The policy of this council over the last couple of years has been to get down to that figure enforced upon us as gracefully as possible with the least damage to our services and the least damage to the morale of our staff and our staff are after all the most important asset that a local authority possesses and that is what we're trying to consider. +Everybody will be aware of the fact that in the course of the last two budgetary years we have made savings in excess of what we had anticipated. +Those savings have been achieved by very careful housekeeping indeed. +By a rigid look at vacancies, by the constant search after efficiency, efficiency savings. +By looking hard at any way in which we can raise extra income for this authority. +A classic example of good housekeeping which has made Cambridge a authority in the region and beyond and one that even members of the conservative government have occasionally, through gritted teeth they're not doing a bad job, damn them and that means that the are going to think to have some of those, if you like, very good housekeeping back to the citizens who have been paying the bills over the years. +For instance to this is an assumption that although we are going to have a shortfall on the collection fund, again because of good housekeeping we believe that this action is what people want by the charge payers of the city and again that in this financial year it can be taken out of the . +This seems to me to be a highly , high responsible budget bringing us closer and closer to a position where we will eventually reach. +We are spending now, if this budget is accepted, a mere eleven percent of the standard spending assessment levels which means that in time we are going to get down to where the government is going to demand that we . +We may not want it but the government is going to demand it and we as custodians of the services on the part of the people of Cambridge, are going to have to do as sensibly and sensitively as possible. +There are some more points I've got to make about the budget in general. +The first thing is that I think people need to recognise that the investigation of savings generated a figure of one point four million pounds. +That is an extraordinary amount of money to find in terms of savings. +It's not a figure that represents gross inefficiencies, gross over expenditure. +What it represents I would suggest, is the desperate attempt to trim off the margin to find every single last way in which we can follow the government diktat whilst preserving our full services. +But I do think that we need to recognise this on council that there is a cost associated with that one point four million pounds worth of savings and those costs come in two different directions. +One cost is that clearly some services are being cut in terms of how good they are. +We need to recognise that some letters will take longer to answer that public loos will not be as fully attended as they have been in the past. +That some community events will not take place. +That some voluntary organisations will not get the grants that they previously expected. +All of these trims at the margins which I would suggest, detract from the quality of life of people in this city, something that we regret, but something which can and has been enforced upon us. +We're trying to the horrors of central government diktat are all closing upon this city. +But there is a cost of that and it's a cost that people will recognise. +They will recognise it too in terms of higher charges than perhaps ideally we would want to impose for certain services which the city operates, whether it be sports pitches or whether to be brutal, it's the cost of actually burying the dead. +Perhaps those are things that in the best of all possible worlds we wouldn't want to but we are forced so to do. +But there's another cost to the savings that have been exemplified and that we are going to be forced to take with regard to this budget and that is something that anybody who uses the city council services, and particularly I would suggest councillors, are going to notice and that is the stress that we are putting on the people that we employ. +It is all very well to say to any people organisation you shall become more and more efficient. +In the end there has to be a limit, there has to be a level beyond which you cannot go without people cracking under the strain, without people saying I'm now doing the job that was done by two people, two and half people a few years ago. +It doesn't mean that you don't look for efficiencies but it does mean that we need to recognise that we are putting a burden on our staff which I think we will be callous and stupid to disregard. +I that in terms of many of the so called efficiency measures that we could take, we are reaching the absolute limits in this authority. +There are areas, one or two of which I will go on to elude to, which I still think are actually going to make for the greatest savings in the coming financial year and thereafter. +But in terms of saying there are easy savings to be found in terms of greater efficiencies in this authority I warn you, we are reaching the level unless we actually want in putting a completely unacceptable level of stress on the people who we employ and who universally serve this city very finely and give such a very high level of service. +I know that there are views among the opposition groups about what should be cut out of this budget. +We have decided that the fundamental points as far as the is concerned is the presentation of services. +Wherever we have looked for savings, we have looked to trimming away at the centre and preserving those services that are delivered to the citizens in a direct way. +Some of them and we make no bones about this, are delivered undoubtedly to minorities, they're delivered to small groups of people in the city, to people who are in any care in the community need to be given special consideration. +If we house them we need to look after all the people, we make no apologies for the fact that this is a budget slanted towards equal opportunities and to an anti-poverty strategy and that is something that we will fight to preserve and we would expect support from at least some quarters in order to achieve an egalitarian status in this city. +The same is true of some of the bids, we've allowed more bids this year than perhaps it was the case in the past. +The bids that we have wording of support. +We want to do something for the voluntary sector. +Fifty thousand pounds extra for the voluntary sector at a time when a recession, when so called but completely un care in the community is putting a tremendous burden of responsibility both on the voluntary sector and on we know what a good job the voluntary sector do in this city thousand pounds is a small proportion of the money that they are actually requesting from us. +It's in a place in the direction of the work that they do, it is not enough, we would like to provide more. +But ill betide anyone who says, says that that is money that's not going to be . +Pollution, the environment, again that is something which is not just for concern, we know it's of global concern as well. +We have some responsibilities in that direction. +Yes we have to operate within our resources, but if we're looking to er how recycling that seems to us a bid which is worthy of backing regardless of political affiliation. +If you listen to any national politician they pay to the importance of environmental concerns and to actually say that that's a bid that can't be approved. +Putting more money into the taxi part scheme, a scheme that is anything but everybody in the surrounding authorities, how many of us have had letters from the residents of Gerton or Promberton or wherever else complaining that they want to be included in this scheme. +Something that provides a life line, mobility for people who otherwise would find that they were being seriously disadvantaged, that their lives would not be as full as . +Each and every one of the bids however they refer to particular minority groups, whether they refer to the group are I think, justifiable. +They're justifiable because we're doing within very tight financial constraints. +This is a very responsible budget indeed. +It brings down our level of expenditure. +It leaves no fortune with regard to what the department of the environment might throw at us next year unless they completely lose their marbles, which after all is always possible. +Which I suspect the odd tory MP having a heart attack, falling under a bus, the loss of directions might actually mean that they might see a degree of sense in borough capping . +It leaves few hostages to fortune with regard to the department of the environment. +We after all, bring our expenditure down, we're down near two million pounds under new cap capping rules. +That is not under any circumstances responsible judging. +It is also the budget that has taken notice of what the opposition have actually said we listened to you we have not persevered with our original thinking, we've talked to the officers, we've listened to what you've said, we may not have done it with the greatest grace possible but . +Comes very much as difficult to grace but erm and we have brought our expectations down. +But the budget in general is one that we withstand. +We think that it conserves services, that it has searched out the vast majority of efficiencies that we can find within this council and that it doesn't pass on to the poll tax, council tax payers the fruits, I mean it does pass on the poll tax or council tax payers the fruits of how we have achieved savings and efficiencies over the last couple of years. +We've done well it's time that that was actually passed on . +There are further areas which in time year will allow that trend to continue, I'm aware of the fact that there will probably be in the course of the evening that suggest that greater efficiencies can be found in a variety of areas whether it be in or wherever else. +We have our own ideas about that. +We have gone out with regard to our team through voluntary competitive tender. +That is designed to save money for this authority. +We are looking seriously at the costs of such in-house items as car leasing. +We've continued to keep a very hard view of the corn exchange and a number of other bodies which we fund, but we're going to see what actually happens, we're not going to make blind predictions about savings without actually going into the facts. +If we make further savings in the course of the next financial year the benefit will be felt by the citizens of Cambridge and it's no good promising them things which we can't deliver. +This is a budget that promises what it will deliver. +That bears the fruits of past, sound financial management, preserved services and looks for as many efficiencies as possible. +Far be it for me to say that this is the sort of budget that conservatives ought to applaud because it is after all, a budget that is guided by a feeling that councils should provide services and they should orientate their services to the least communities, to be guided by equal opportunities and by egalitarians and that's what this group has always stood for, this is the budget that we present tonight and I would hope that it would get a far better and far larger measure of support than perhaps of course been the case in the past. +Is there a second? +Yes. +Is there anybody else . +Thank you Mr Mayor, erm well this may be a budget the conservative might applaud but I'm . +Yes,one wonders how get actually. +David Owen might be buying membership soon. +But seriously I'm against this budget because of what is, what it doesn't contain rather than what it does contain. +the policies that it represents, still represents even as amendment. +Repeat this evening. +That labour's budget doesn't do anything new to meet those challenges. +Education cuts. +Interesting the party supposedly in favour of education groans when education is mentioned. +Interesting to to speculate and I'll do this a little later on, ask them why the labour party's so obsessed with opposing education . +There's also pollution the environment,the council mentioned those, there's nothing new in this budget. +Nothing new about the lack of public transport in Cambridge. +And about the biggest problem today, that of unemployment what we have is nine thousand pounds put back into the the employment development fund. +Still leaving . +What we have is nine thousand pounds put back into the employment development fund still leaving a cut. +This is no time to cut anything from the employment development fund, from the training budget, even sixteen thousand pounds. +So the fails to meet all these challenges. +Make no apologise ds ds to starting with education, the county council is cutting seven million pounds from education this year. +A dozen or more teachers in city schools may lose their jobs, maybe more. +More than half the city's schools are faced with real cuts in their budgets. +County talks about putting a million pounds back in and it turns out that this million pound in fact is part of a two million pound cut that appears to have been made. +It's all a mistake of calculation from when the government nationalised further education. +The city could act, the city could do something about it but it won't. +The ruling group, the labour party, refuses to do anything about this at all. +I don't want to hear any more nonsense about doing the county council's job because the city already does lots of things for the county council concessionary fares for the elderly for example. +On the city board last week we had yet another example rather a good project Trumpington disability project, very likely but it's social services budget. +And a question you have to ask yourself is why the labour party is prepared to spend on all the aspects of county council responsibility except education. +Why is this? +Why does the labour party seem to education? +The one thing it will not, it will not spend money on. +Education is important to everyone, it's not a m a minority group, it's important to individuals for their own self fulfilment, it's important for society for our economic future and our future as a democracy. +So why the opposition and after all this time, eighteen months of debate. +And from the labour party, reason after reason, feeble reason after reason . +After all this time reason and reason's been knocked down, one after the other and what did we get last time? +We got votes against our proposals with no reasons given at all, you've now got down to the point of having no reasons at all for opposing what we want to do. +So what is why is it that labour party oppose education spend? +So I think we're getting rather strange signals out of tonight's budget, on the one hand we have councillor the John Smith clone, although at least put a bit of weight on. +On the other hand +We seem to have a labour party that treats education as some kind of middle class hobby that thinks of education spending as something spent only on the bourgeoisie, something to do with a university, something not really important for ordinary people. +If that's not the reason, what is the reason? +And one suspects it might be back in the days of the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties when the labour party opposed anything at local level,of course, but at local level that might tend towards helping people to be upwardly mobile on the grounds that upwardly mobile people stop voting labour. +I don't want to go to the story as to why the labour party opposed the er th the entry to the city of Marks and Spencer but it's an interest . +They didn't want working people to have decent clothes . +I really do hope the labour party is stuck in some kind of thirties plan I'm afraid I've got my doubts. +Will you stop laughing. +the circumstances I wonder how well this is to the current debate as opposed to amendments which I suspect will be moved later on. +I'll give my reasons for voting against this budget. +It's got no education spending. +I I I think that councillor should be allowed to continue. +because er he's just one person who remembers those years. +Ooh. +There are other grounds remaining for opposing this budget. +It still hasn't tackled all the waste there is in the council, we'll get back to that when we amendment. +It still hasn't done anything new, has no new ideas about traffic and environmental problems. +And of course it's a budget which is on an attitude towards the Parkside Pool problem which we disagree with therefore in no way do we support it. +But there are many reasons, as you will see when we put our amendment asking why are budget proposals are different from the ruling groups but the main reasons are simply the ruling group's refusal, for whatever reason, I just wanna hear the reasons. +to do anything about the major problems facing the city. +Councillor . +Yes I would like also to speak against this amendment erm but for completely different reasons. +I don't intend to give the council a to solving the world's problems and that's not the word to mind but problems. +. +Because I do recognise Mr Mayor er I have to say, that this amendment is a step in the right direction. +But I believe that the councillor er is somewhat cynical in the what that he has put this forward. +Tories producing rabbits out of hats is the big bad headline, wasn't it. +You know we're the ones accused of doing these things at the last moment. +We're the ones who you know, don't tell anybody what our strategy is going to be, we suddenly spring it on the members right at the end of the process at the council meeting. +We're not running the council the labour group are running the council er but they on this occasion Mr Mayor, are the ones producing the rabbits out of the hats. +And I'll congratulate the leader of the council on a wonderful conjuring act with this amendment. +I asked at the meeting of the city board and I asked on more than one occasion, and didn't get a proper answer, what the labour group intended to do with the three point two million pounds that will build up in reserve say for the next three years. +I made it clear that our policy was to use that money to reduce the level of the council tax over that period of time. +I couldn't get any clear commitment er from er you Mr Mayor, or the leader of the council as to what would do with that three point two million pounds. +I also pressed at the city board for something to be done about this problem of the er people disappearing off the poll tax register at an alarming rate I must add. +And I was absolutely amazed and I think all of us on the opposition benches were absolutely amazed at the city board that you appeared to have no proposals whatsoever to do anything about that situation. +I find found that absolutely incredible and I thought it was bizarre to say the least, the procedure we had to go through the other er evening erm with two hours of acrimonious debate er a break while you consulted er the officers before we got to some er sensible way forward which is now incorporated in this amendment er to spend a hundred thousand pounds on actually trying to trace . +But spending that hundred thousand pounds as we were told at the time, would only part solve the problem. +The potential deficit on the poll tax collection fund er because of these people not registering is well over million pounds and that by spending the hundred thousand proposed here, would actually bring it down to seven hundred and thirty five thousand pounds and that's where the conjuring trick is er this er amendment because of course, if you work out the increase in the balances that you are proposing to take in this amendment, it works out exactly to seven hundred and thirty five thousand pounds, well it does on my calculations Mr Mayor. +Exactly seven hundred and thirty five thousand pounds. +So you're doing exactly what we were telling you to do a few weeks ago, that you had to er take money out of reserves or you had to cut down on the level of services if you were to avoid putting that thirty four pounds on the council tax bills this year. +And you very cleverly, very cleverly and I, this is where I congratulate you, built this in to your proposals tonight. +There are some things in this that obviously we can support, the delete or reduction in the contingency pros p provision to a hundred thousand pounds, we're going to be moving later on to delete even that amount but it's surprising you were telling us you've been telling us for years you have to have two hundred thousand pounds in the contingency. +All of a sudden in a matter of two weeks, you can take a hundred thousand pounds out of it. +We welcome the reduction in the job evaluation budget to fifty thousand pounds. +The officers told us er some time ago that that could be done quite easily. +If the officers could tell us that why didn't they tell the controlling labour group, I'm sure they did and then the question is why didn't you listen to them. +Why then did you put over a hundred thousand pounds in that budget in the first place? +I welcome that particular proposal. +You questioned Mr Mayor at the city board when I put forward the proposal to increase the er turnover figure from three percent to four percent. +You said, explain that councillor Evans, tell us how you're going to do it. +Well perhaps you or somebody on the other side might care to tell us how you're gonna take it from three to three and half, cos I'll quite happily tell you then how we'll take it from three and half to four percent, so we welcome that as a step in the right direction. +Obviously as I say, we would support the additional bid of a hundred thousand for pursuing the poll tax er non-registers. +And obviously we would want to take money out of reserves, our original amendment took one point three million pounds out of reserves and it's interesting to see now that you're suggesting almost that figure again and yet for years you've been telling us you can't take this money out of the reserves, er you know we had to keep it for a rainy day. +Do we take it that the rainy day has finally arrived? +I think it has. +But this does not go far enough for us and er shortly we will be moving another amendment which will take the council's budget down to the standard spending assessment and I will speak to that er when I come to move that amendment. +No the standard spe spending assessment. +Could I, just before I sit down, say one thing er why I disagree er with councillor . +I think the liberal democrats are gonna find themselves rather strangely isolated here this evening, proposing the highest budget. +Ah well we will wait and see erm, they're trying to solve everybody's problems but ours, er with all this talk about spending money on education, sorting out the traffic problems erm, it's a pity they don't spend a bit more time in their budget calculations in dealing with the problems of this council and not those of the county council. +So Mr Mayor, for completely different reasons than the council have er I will be urging my group to vote against this amendment and to support a subsequent amendment which will take the budget down even further. +Thank you. +Councillor wishes to speak. +Thank you Mr Mayor I just wanted t to come in with two fairly quick points er as to why I will not be able to support this amendment, but the first is that the leader of the council has indicated that the efficiency savings erm has got as far as it can go and that, you know, we have been trimming at the margins and there is no more margin left and that leads you to believe that perhaps one should be looking at somewhat more er root and branch type of pruning in the spending that that the labour group want to actually erm deal with, er and the second point I would like to make, and er I thank councillor for giving us a a a a new word tonight obfuscation because that describes exactly what I think the labour group are trying to do by bringing this figure down it removes the embarrassment they would have from having to add on a substantial sum of money f due to the failure to collect the cou er the community charge in previous years and I think that they are trying by by this amendment with some very quick foot work to try and delude the people of this city. +Mr Mayor, councillor says that the labour group is running the council, that's manifestly not the case. +The conservative group is running the council. +And the conservative group is running the council in the sense that labour has scrambled, obviously over the last few days, to reduce its tax level to something closer to the tories and I'm going to stand with my fellow liberal democrats tonight and vote for a higher figure because, not only because I think that there's sort of things we want to do in our budget, are b are b are better and and would be better done than not done, but because I think there's a fundamental political ethical issue here and it's one which has been confronting this country for a great many years and which is going to be crucial in the next election. +The question is, do the people of Britain believe in paying higher taxes for good services delivered by central and local government? +I thought that progressives, political progressives in this country were prepared to stand by public services and believe in them sufficiently to say this will cost you and we are prepared to to put the bill to you because we believe you will pay the bill. +What we have tonight is a labour group that says they no longer believe in that philosophy. +What they believe in is that everybody out there is out to grab as much as they can for their own private interest and they're prepared to meet them halfway on that. +There's no question who's running the council here, it's this lot. +Reference to I think that last comment is of course a very interesting one . +I thought the liberal democrats failed abysmally at that the last election. +Can you say +Mr Ashdown may have all the qualities of leadership except . +And I suspect that the next election that will still prevail. +But clearly the liberal democrats have not learnt the lesson of spending what you have and running prudent budgets. +Even president Clinton is learning that, even as a democrat he had a reputation of fiscal responsibility as a government, but I must admit I welcomed his present er proposals in that regard. +But that doesn't follow for the liberal democrats in this particular council. +I don't think their proposals in that regard will be worthy of support. +Er, but councillor other remark about the labour party moving towards the conservatives is of course a very fair one, but then surely nothing surprises us at the moment about the labour party. +At long last they've come out in favour of wealth, isn't that extraordinary, reported in today's paper. +They're also, Mr Mayor, interestingly coming out in favour of the individual but I must admit I applaud that and at long last in some, admittedly very modest way, er they are moving, I won't say to fiscal responsibility, but at least they're learning the lessons of the recklessness of the past of their policies. +But what we have to bear in mind of course er the f financial propriety of this council would in a sense have been very easy over the years if the labour party previously had trimmed its budget according to what we could all afford. +That they did not do and now the leader of the council said well they're trying to get down to the standard spending assessment at last, he could have done that a long time ago, you have had nothing but excess expenditure proposals on behalf of this city for many, many years. +If we are above government guidelines it is the labour party's fault and if indeed we are penalised in the future it is the labour party's fault, none other and to the extent that you run the risk now by having this excess eleven percent budget over the er standing expenditure assessment er will once again unfortunately find you guilty in that regard. +What I did find very distressing in his remarks, er were basically in respect of some of the savings . +Again I must say it seems extraordinary doesn't it that er he pontificates the savings when really one is entitled to ask the question well why weren't they made before? +I really can't think that you can claim those as savings. +They're a pulling back of your excess expenditure. +They are if you like a correctness of mismanagement. +It can't be anything else, formal savings is not on and I think when you small items I was rather distressed by some of them. +I think we're going to go as a council in the direction of not answering letters on time. +In business that cost is one of the first items you do in efficiency terms. +If you delay the answering of letters, of course that creates more letters chasing up the first ones and that is again where you are getting your priorities wrong, admittedly on a very small items. +For the leader of the council to use the excuse in terms of savings about the cost of the burning of the dead. +I think most of us have due respect and regard for proper procedure in that regard. +One of the most emotional times for anyone. +For you to downgrade that and say well I'm sorry now we're doing all this, we can't guarantee that, it's disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. +What I actually said was that the price that we would have to charge for burying the dead had to go up in order to ensure that in of the circumstances our standards could remain impeccable. +That I regard as unfortunate . +I'm very glad you clarified that Mr because certainly I not as I heard it er and I'm very pleased that was clarified and I think others would have felt likewise. +Let me come on, let me come on then to a more disgraceful excuse er that er the leader of the council talked about. +He talked about the stress on the people we employ. +Most of us who've been on this council some years will have seen the stress that the labour party brought on a number of senior officers who felt obliged to leave in what I would call distressing circumstances. +That was the pressure of the labour party policy and if there is any stress on staff in this council then it is at your responsibility. +You are running this council and it up to you to ensure that you do not create employ because if that is what you're admitting to you're +Councillor you've had over your time +Thank you very much well I've been very pleased to make those points relating to the leader of the council. +Since there are no further hands rushing up into the air I'll say a few words myself. +Asking +I think the proposals the labour group's . +It's important that we look at the pattern of our spending as a local authority over the past five or six years. +But that in some of the comments that have gone before. +In those days the government assessed local authority needs according to a very in the grant related expenditure assessment, G R E A, greas and this is much more complex and sensitive measure of how much it costs to run a city and in those days what the government thought we should be spending and what we thought we should be spending seemed in fact to be very close indeed. +In nineteen eighty seven, eighty eight, we spent ninety nine point eight eight percent of what the government thought . +In nineteen eighty eight and eighty nine we spent ninety eight point two nine percent and in eighty nine ninety, ninety seven point one four percent of what the government thought we need we actually underspent in their terms. +This was still a labour council, they were still a conservative government but there was a wonderful consensus about the spending needs of local authorities and how local authorities should be funded. +That was what one might call a pre-poll tax consensus. +In nineteen ninety one the S S A was introduced as the measure for assessing local authority needs and in that year our spending, instead of being one or two percent below what the government thought, it shot up to forty nine point nine five percent above the S S A figures. +What had happened? +Had labour suddenly become a local authority, or did the S S A simply fail as an accurate way of assessing our spending needs? +The answer I think, lies in the fact that the government next year gave this authority an increase in its S S A of some thirty two point one percent, one of the largest increases in the country. +Not quite enough perhaps but still enough to be an admission that they got it seriously wrong in the year before. +Since that point though what has been the pattern of our budgets? +Have we kicked against the and ignored the determination of central government to bolster their own problems with the P S B I by reducing local authority spending? +No, from that figure of forty nine point nine five percent above S S A in nineteen ninety one we proposed a budge that had brought reductions year on year in that divergence of view. +Each and every year there have been reductions. +In nineteen ninety one the gap narrowed to thirty one percent from almost fifty nine. +In ninety two, three it narrowed further to twenty two percent and this year we're proposing a budget that is only ten point eight percent adverse to the government's figures. +We don't believe that the government is correct in their view of what the city needs. +But we've not wilfully put at risk services or jobs by risking capping by going in the opposite direction. +Equally we've tried not to traumatise the public or our staff by cutting back to the governments preferred level all at once. +Our view is that the people of this city value the services the council provides and don't want them withdrawn. +Ours has been a process of careful pruning year on year. +It's not been without pain and I pay tribute to our staff's willingness to embrace the changes that we've had to make. +In particular I think it should be recognised that the role of the unions, NALGO and G M D in helping that process of change has been quite fundamental and for that reason, because we appreciate and value the essential way in which the unions have contributed to the process of changing the organisation I consider that the they much trailed proposals from the opposition groups to cut, or in the other case, to reduce the NALGO office are quite misguided . +I want to return however to the question of the pattern of taxation in the authority under labour control. +It's of course only to be expected that people should moan about the tax they've got to pay and people always complain that it seems to go up every year. +Well let me say quite clearly now, that is not true. +Both as a percentage of budget and in real terms accounting for inflation, people are being asked to pay less today than they were in nineteen eighty eight. +In eighty eight, eighty nine the rates, business and domestic, amounted to eighty one point seven percent of all the council's spending. +The government contributed just eighteen point two percent so the bulk of our expenditure was born by local people directly. +Today we're asking local people to pay only fifty seven percent instead of eight two. +But politicians always speak in terms of percentages and real terms so let's look at the total tax which was demanded from people in the city in the past few years. +In nineteen ninety, ninety one we asked for six point four seven four million in poll tax. +In ninety one ninety two, five point four. +In ninety two, three by point six seven and in the budget we propose tonight we've asked for four point five five million. +No no allowing for inflations, no underlying trends under the labour proposals people in Cambridge will be paying less hard cash now than they did eight years ago. +The council is spending prudently and efficiently and it's spending as little hard cash as is compatible with meeting the essential needs of the people who live in the city. +I'm told I've got to wind up +I have the discretion to give myself up. +But you'll be relieved to know I'm not going . +In that case Councillor has . +Can we move to the vote then please on the amendment before us I proposed to take it. +As point of order I believe as this is a proposal of an amendment of the city board city board is the city board chair's right of reply. +Do you wish to exercise your right to reply? +Very, very briefly indeed erm I would stand by what I said in my overall speech. +I do think that the +Erm, it doesn't matter what I propose, whether it actually makes out things that they've been talking about or whether it's completely found something to criticise about it. +That's politics. +What we've actually got here is a judicious budget proposal which yes, has changed over the last fortnight, I make no apologies for that. +It also has to hinder to recognition of what the needs of the people of the city are and I actually cast out, wipe out services and the needs of central administration which is essential to any council and I would hope that not only my own back this amendment. +Thank you. +Can I ask us to to move the amendment erm in one A those in favour of that part of the amendment please show one A. +What are we voting on? +from the housing committee and nine thousand pounds from the environment committee were the following additional savings. +Roman numeral one, those in favour please show. +Those against please show. +Roman numeral two please show in favour +Thirty two. +And those against roman numeral three, those in favour please and those against right. +In B add at the end roman numeral one, those in favour please show . +Thirty one Mr Mayor. +And those against roman numeral two those in favour and those against roman numeral three those in favour and those against amendment D to read one two to eight O O nine please in that budget to thirty six three eight nine fifty, those in favour. +Thirty two. +And those against. +In three alter the amounts calculated to read as follows, I hope that we can take that block in three as one since it all follows from what's gone before. +Yes we have erm those in favour thank you, and those against okay thank you. +Are there further amendments? +Thank you councillor . +Okay councillor can you proceed? +Does everyone have a copy of this one good er Mr Mayor erm all budgets are a balance between er spending on database services and spending on capital projects and on keeping taxes down. +All three elements have to come in to any budget decision and nobody can ignore all three, indeed if you look around three groups of the council you'll see that all the budget proposed tonight will take into account all three areas. +Conservative budget for example even though its main press is always on keeping the tax level down er will often include capital projects. +For example they support the market square project and at the end of the day even with the total budget down to S S A the vast bulk of the money being spent by conservative budget's been spent on people salaries but it's still being spent on services and the labour party this year has lost the three elements keeping the tax down and that's quite a good thing to see. +Though I should say that what councillor said that my group were prepared to set a higher tax level if that were necessary. +That's what we said at the general election. +By my judgement as the amendment reflects is that it isn't necessary but if it were I would have no hesitation s whatsoever in increasing the level of taxation to pay for what needs to be paid for. +It needs to be understood that what divides the parties isn't so much that one party believes in capital projects, on party in revenue spending and one party in keeping the taxation levels down. +What divides them is solely of judgements on the bounds between those three elements. +I should say that for us revenue services, ordinary database services do come first keeping the tax level does come second and the prestige projects, even rather good ones like the market square project definitely come third. +It's not to say that we are against capital projects, we are not. +We have included in our proposal this year twenty thousand revenue effects of a hundred thousand pounds capital bid on traffic calming and other similar measures, something which is very popular around the city, as long as you ask people what they want first and which in previous years we put forward as a revenue bid. +We decided the best way to deal with that question is through a capital bid and that's what we've done. +And also of course there is the question of Parkside Pool although observant members of the council will notice that Parkside Pool isn't mentioned in our amendment. +That is because, fortunately I suppose,our Parkside modernisation scheme we are reliable informed by officers, would have no revenue effects in ninety three, ninety four. +It would have revenue effect of course in ninety four, ninety five and our future budget will have to reflect that. +But in this year the first year of the project, because it will be towards the end of the year anyway it has no revenue, net revenue effect. +the basic day to day problems that we want to concentrate on and on the challenges it faces. +Education fund is in there we've not raised the price but that is our top priority and we believe it's societies top priority also in our amendment is our idea for extending concessionary bus fares for journeys within the city to those of school age who do not quality for the statutory schemes run by the county. +The idea there is to try to get some reduction, some reduction in the level of traffic at peak hours and to help public transport. +And of course in a scheme like that many details have to be worked out especially in negotiations with the bus company for the figure we have put in is I think a realistic figure for the first year of the scheme. +We also want to bring about improvements in some well appreciated services. +Services the council provides which we think could benefit from extra resources. +The example of this of course is the night time call out service, which all parties support, which comes every year as a problem of funding, do we want a full week service? +And we do, the question is can we afford it and we think we can. +These services of course have to be paid for and we do aim to keep the level of taxation as low as possible but of course we can't aim to bring it down as far as conservatives would want because we need, we in the city need, to spend money on things like the education fund without which it becomes a city less worth living in. +But we are looking f for savings to make greater efficiencies and we think we've found some. +I'm gonna start with the support for trade unions small item twenty six thousand pounds to the NALGO project, there's a G M B budget but that's all nearly all paid for out of direct services we don't want to touch that. +This county pays for a full time union official this is extravagant, one full timer for five hundred members, that is way over the top let me tell you. +I'll give you one example the union of communication workers for the post office has one full time worker, one full time officer for two to three thousand. +So we propose to cut that support by half in this year and to keep it under review for future years as well. +Because we want to see a review of the whole system of union representation within the council to see whether it's an appropriate sort of representation for an organisation of this size. +We are not against unions, we are for unions, unions can be very useful not only for their members but also for the management, we recognise that. +The amount of money put in by the public. +I would say to you you've already spent seven minutes of your time erm now +allow you seven minutes in initially also and so + +Well St Aldate's in the Civil War is quite a problem to talk about really, erm in half an hour, because it's so enmeshed in the story of Oxford in the Civil War which is a long, very interesting one, so what I'm going to try and do is erm to pick out some of the local landmarks that did survive in the 17th century and relate them to what we know about some of the people and in this short half an hour, just try and picture what it was like to live in St Aldate's during the civil war. +Obviously a whole lot else is . +I think it's quite important to orientate ourselves first, and you're looking at a map of Oxford in 1643, erm and 17th century maps for the most part are what we should call upside down. +The north is at the bottom, and I think it helps if you stop thinking about it as a map and you think about it as a birds-eye view, a helicopter view, erm and then the whole thing begins to make sense. +erm Now, what you've got there is a slightly later map of 1675, which is exactly the same, the north is at the bottom, I'm afraid the top is not very obvious, if I could just hold it up, you've got the castle there, and you've got it the right way up, and actually there's some writing as well. +erm And the reason I've given you that one is that that was drawn in 1675 by David Loggen, and it's a very, very accurate one, and it's rather easier to see some of the places I shall be talking about, so I think it's a nice one for you to have close up. +erm There are some little differences which are quite interesting too. +Now, if we find Carfax first in the middle, Oxford's on the crossroads principle, like so many cities, we've got St Giles down here, erm and Oxford of course a small city, or we should regard it as a very small city. +It was still a walled city, the walls were all virtually intact, the castle was a bit ruinous, but it was there, and it had its four main gates, erm East Gate on the important London Road going out past Magdalen and over Magdalen Bridge, erm the North Gate here, the Westgate by the Castle, and then still existing then but not in your map if you can find it, the South Gate across the road, just at the bottom of Christchurch, can you find Christchurch on your map? erm Now, perhaps you can that there's a difference in Christchurch on your map with this one. +When Cardinal Wolsey fell, he hadn't finished the building of Tom Quad, the whole of this side was left open because he'd planned a very grand perpendicular chapel like King's College Chapel, and erm the ruins, well no, not the ruins, the foundations were still to be seen apparently in the 17th Century John Gomley tells us. +But it was open, I mean it must have been fenced in some way later on. +erm But there was this great gap and I think had the civil war not come, the dean of Christchurch who was the first of the two Fells, would have probably finished that building then. +As it was it was finished, as you can see on your map, after the war, erm but perhaps you can also see that Tom Tower is not yet built on yours. +That wouldn't come till the 1680s. +Now St Aldate's was a long narrow parish. +It didn't quite reach up to Carfax, and it had another great landmark, as well as the big, rich college of Christchurch, and that was the Guildhall, built at the centre of the civic power, which was more or less, well, just where the Town Hall is now. +It had 2 big inns, and we're more or less, well, we are on the site of the first one, Blue Boar Inn, and on your map, rather strangely, it seems to be built across the opening of Blue Boar Lane, I don't know if you can see. +erm Anyway, it's just about there, and then, almost next door, presumably in competition with each other is the other inn, the Unicorn Inn, erm so that was it just on the South Side of Blue Boar Lane. +erm One very important house is erm what is now the Newman Mobray Bookshop, and that of course is still very much as it was in the 17th Century. +It belonged to an extremely important erm civic family, Thomas and John Smith, who are the two important ones during the civil war, Thomas was mayor just before the War, John Smith was a member of parliament in the Long Parliament, and erm there's a slightly complicated story to the house, Thomas moved out of it just before the war and built another one way up the street, but John stayed there, and another important landowner in Marston, Umpton Croak, owned the other half of it. +If you go down to Newman Mobray, and walk down that little alleyway, Rose Place, you see what is the frontage of that house, and it's very fine, and you can tell these are important people building themselves a fine house. +erm And I've got a picture in here somewhere , which I'll pass round. +erm And also, the Alice Shop? +Do you know where I mean? erm Well, that too, is a 17th century building, I've got a an early 19th century Butler engraving of it here, and some pictures from the Alice shop itself, Now that was owned by a Walter Paine, both these citizens were well off brewers, erm those are just pictures of the same one, it's a little bit of a problem because this is called the house belonging to the manciple of Christchurch. +I think in fact that's a mistake from,a mistaken caption. +Manciples were like college bursars, and they were very important. +I'm rather advertising this because I think it's important to understand that although, and I'm sure you know, that there's this constant war really between, it wasn't of course a physical war, but certainly tension, and difficulty between the university and the city. +erm I think it's important not to see the city as a sort of down-trodden, poor,hard-working, well, I'm sure they were hard-working, but very poor people. +We're talking about two powerful organisations, both trying to keep their privileges intact. +erm Undoubtedly the university often won, but that didn't stop the city keeping on trying. +erm And I think one other citizen should be mentioned, erm which is one John Nixon. +He didn't actually live in St Aldate's, but he must have been here a lot, because he was mayor in 1636, he was an alderman erm he was very much a leading in the city, and I think the leader of the opposition to Royal Policies. +erm And erm when he came back after the war, he actually was so much involved on the parliamentarian side he had to leave Oxford during the war, but when he came back he built a school in the city which was actually in the Guildhall courtyard, it was built round the courtyard, and that remained a free school, for the city's boys right up to the end of the 19th century. +Right, now, we've talked about very briefly, touched on the division between university and the city, and obviously the erm differences between the King and Parliament exacerbated what happened in the city. +That's a complicated story I can't really go into at the moment, but was very much to do with the Royal Policies of the 1630s. +Am I blocking your view? +No. +erm This is quite an interesting cartoon, and really has no connection with either St Aldate's or Oxford, erm but it was actually published in 1642, and it shows the two sides, the Roundheads and the Cavaliers, and what I think is interesting about it is that it does seem to be quite objective, it doesn't seem to be particularly getting at one side or the other, which is very rare for the kind of erm cartoons that were later issued during the war. +And I've really just put it up erm because erm this is a complicated story but, one does want to be careful I think about seeing the sides as too neat. +erm Undoubtedly the university erm with it's connections with the aristocracy and the landed gentry and the church was mainly royalist, but that is not to say that it all was. +One college, New Inn Hall, completely emptied during the war, because erm they were on parliament's side. +erm The warden of Merton had to get out of Oxford quick when the king arrived, because, and spent the erm war in London, name was Nathaniel Brent, and he was quite an important man in the organisation of the Parliamentary war effort, and Lincoln had rather mixed loyalties, too. +So even University wasn't completely on one side, and again the City was erm there was this sort of Puritan element that didn't like the King's religious policies, erm there was this general feeling against the University which tended to put them off to the other side, but there are undoubtedly loyal citizens erm citizens loyal to the King. +And Thomas and John Smith, who I've just mentioned were actually a split family, Thomas Smith was erm so loyal that when the first round of parliament, sorry, when the first Royalist troops came into Oxford, he, as a J P prosecuted some of the citizens who tried to stop them blocking down Botley Bridge as a defence measure. +Whereas John Smith, a member of the Long Parliament actually was beaten up by those same Royalists troops, so erm because of his parliamentary sympathies. +erm But he seems to have played things rather cool later on, he disappears at the beginning of the war but comes back into Oxford, and then later, actually sits in the Royalist Parliament,1644, which he certainly wouldn't have done if he was still on parliament's side. +erm And I think really most citizens, and I daresay, a number of the scholars in the university too, were rather more interested in keeping their heads down, and erm just trying to keep out of it, and where the citizens were concerned, keeping on earning a living. +erm And I think that's an important thing to remember while we're thinking about what happened in St Aldate's. +Well undoubtedly the first thing that happened in St Aldate's, the most important thing, was after the battle of Edgefield, when the King rode in in state erm in victory he said, though the fact that the battle was indecisive,and it was described by a very royalist writer Anthony Wood, you may have heard of, is a university antiquarian erm very much on the university and royalist side. +‘They came in their full march into the town with about 60 or 70 coloureds borne before them which they'd taken at the Battle of Edgehill from the Parliament's forces. +At Christchurch the university stood to welcome His Majesty.’ +Well he doesn't bother to mention that the king also had an official welcome at Carfax, which was the normal place, what was known as the Penniless Bench, which was at the end of St Martin's Church, only the of that remains at the moment, now, erm and then was presented with the traditional gift of gloves by the mayor, and the not very generous sum of £520, and just about the same time, Alderman Nixon and 12 others who agreed with him disappeared smartly from Oxford, and weren't to be seen for the rest of the war. +Now the King chose Oxford for pretty obvious reasons as his headquarters, he'd lost London, he needed a capital and a headquarters, erm and erm Oxford had a delightfully convenient central position, its transport is very easy with the river erm navigable, erm on both sides of it. +Easy to defend, with its walls still existing, and the two rivers, and of course, with resources, with fuel and war effort, and the kind of buildings where the king could form a court. +And the best building, though it's not technically part of St Aldate's, was the one he obviously chose as his fort, which was Christchurch. +So court dominates St Aldate's throughout the war, and I think therefore we should spend just a little time looking at the people involved, erm but not too much. +This of course is erm one of the famous Van Dyck portraits of Charles before the war, painted in 1636. +Painted for a bust to be made, so that's why we have the three views, but I think it's very lucky, it means we can sort of walk round Charles, and get our own view of him. +And perhaps Van Dyck doesn't flatter him in quite the way, flatter's the wrong word, sort of transmutes him in the way that he often does in his very elegant and sophisticated portraits. +Well, Charles immediately set up the kind of court that he'd had in London as far as he could, with a very set routine. +He had his two elder sons with him, he had quite a lot of time for enjoyment, certainly to start with, he went hunting round Woodstock quite often, and they played tennis, The erm Racquet Sport, and I think they played tennis in The Racquet Sport, I'm not absolutely certain, was actually just erm facing onto Blue Boar Street, erm behind the Unicorn Inn. +erm They had great services were held in Christchurch Cathedral, and the King would have looked out from the Deans House, and this is the view of Tom Quad, a modern view, of course, of how you can look out onto the Great Quad of Christchurch, but of course it wasn't like that. +erm Tom Tower wasn't there, the elegant pool in the middle wasn't and in fact the whole thing was probably rather chaotic. +We know for instance that quite often erm pillaged flocks of cows and sheep were driven into the quad as one of the few open spaces within the city walls. +Anthony Wood gleefully recalls this. +erm So I think you want to regard it not as a sort of glamorous place where the troops were drilling and the drums were beating, but a slightly chaotic and rather dirty place, despite the kings existence. +Another person the people in St Aldate's would have seen was the kings nephew, Prince Rupert, erm only 23 but one of the King's major assets, a brilliant cavalry commander. +This is painted just before the war, and it's interesting to compare it with a painting by the court painter, William Dobson who worked in Oxford during the war, his studio was just around the corner in the High Street, because that's Rupert very much at the end when things were going badly wrong for him, erm and it's unfinished, perhaps because Dobson was beginning to run out of paint, and the experts at allow, and I think just that face tells the whole story about tension and unhappiness, Dobson's an interesting painter, one of the first English painters who sort of get to the top in this way, and he painted a lot of the cavaliers at Charles' court, erm this is Sir John Byron who clattered down the main street at St Aldate's, before the king even arrived before the Battle of Edgehill, the one that caused trouble for John Smith, erm and he was very much a swash-buckling character, but he didn't spend a lot of time in Oxford later, but he was there enough to have his portrait painted. +That black mark is erm a scar patch, if you got a scar during the war you got a wound in a scuffle erm you won in the war, you did sort of emphasise this in that way. +And so Charles Cockshall, who is the owner of court out to the north of Oxford, who is the King's master of ceremonies, and I think that's an interesting contrast, because here again you get this feeling of tension, and sadness. +erm There was a great deal of difficulty I think at the court, as well as the rather glamorous exterior. +erm The Queen didn't arrive till 1643, she'd been in the Netherlands raising money for the war effort, very successfully, because she finally came to Oxford with 2,000 foot and 1,000 horsemen, and erm a hundred wagons full of equipment as well as cannons and so on. +I don't know if it all came to Oxford, but certainly most of it did, and erm the city council actually spent six shillings and sixpence strewing the streets with flowers to welcome her, which erm when we have a look at the amount of money that was being, having to be raised elsewhere it was quite generous really. +And she got the pair of gloves as usual at the Penniless Bench. +erm Then she came down to Christchurch and was welcomed by the heads of the university, her husband had already greeted her outside Oxford, on the site of , actually, and then Charles escorted her to her own household in Merton College. +I think she undoubtedly added to the intrigue erm and difficulties of her court, erm one example, she was always getting people that she approved of, getting them plum jobs, and one example was one of the governors of Oxford, the most unpopular, one Sir Arthur Aston, who was so unpopular that he got attacked on the street, and then had to have a body guard paid for the city council, and then was curvetting on his horse in front of some ladies, and fell off and broke his leg so badly that he had to have it amputated, so from then on he had a wooden leg, erm that meant he had to stop being governor, and later on in the war, a countryman was coming into Oxford, and asked the sentinel ‘who was governor still’, and by that time a friend of prince Rupert's Sir William Leg was governor, and the answer was ‘one Leg’, and the countryman's reply was ‘pox on him, is he governor still?’. +(Aston). +erm I think two people have had tremendous problems and again must have been going up and down St Aldate's, because they were very busy officials, was Edward Hyde, who later became Earl of Clarendon and wrote his story of the war, again of course from the Royalist point of view, and his great friend, Lord Falkland, who was Secretary of State for the King, and became so upset and worried by the rash policies of the Queen's party and the general atmosphere of intrigue, and by the war itself, that he does seem to have more or less committed suicide at the battle of Newbury, by riding ahead of his troops into the enemy. +And erm Edward Hyde wrote an elegiac mourning comment on this, which we really haven't got time for unfortunately. +erm Sorry, I think we'll just stick with Faulkner for a moment, because I think that leads us on to the constant tragedies of battle casualties, which were obviously very much brought in into Oxford whenever people were wounded outside they were often brought in to Oxford to be cared for, there was a hospital out of Yarnton too, but a great many were cared for all over Oxford, and the greatest of course were buried at Christchurch. +erm The tombs bear witness to this, there's two governors actually, Sir William Pendon who died of one of the epidemics in Oxford and Sir Henry Gage who was another governor, who was only governor for a month because he was killed in a scuffle near Abingdon. +erm But the grandest funeral of the lot was the King's cousin, erm which was, erm and the funeral procession came from Magdalen down to Christchurch, the footman soldiers came, he was, sorry, killed at the battle of Edgehill, and the funeral took place on January 13th 1643. +‘The footman soldiers came first with their muskets under their arms, the noses of the muskets being behind them. +The pikemen trailed their pikes on the ground, the horsemen followed with their pistols in their hands, the handles being upwards. +The tops of the colours also were borne behind, a chariot, covered in black velvet where the body was, drawn by six horses, and the man that drove the chariot strewed money about the streets as he passed. +Three great volleys of shot at the interring of the body, and lastly an herald of arms proclaimed his titles.’ +Well, if death can ever be glamorous, that, I suppose, is the glamorous side of war casualties, but I think we need to spend the rest of our time very much looking at what it was like for the ordinary people of St Aldate's. erm And here, I apologise for producing a modern slide of Carfax, but I think just to remind you that we are talking about a very busy crowded city area, and erm about a city whose whole aspect was changing during the war. +The university buildings, all around St Aldate's, the Bodleian had become a warehouse, full of corn, coal, cheese and the uniforms for the King's lifeguards were made there. +New College was an arsenal, Magdalen College had the heavy ordnance, which was clattering through the streets drawn by horses, whenever it was brought in. +There were mills all round the city that were grinding gunpowder or sword blades. +erm I think the city must have become a real mess, there were stores piled up everywhere, wood, coal, corn, often I think they had to build sort of, something to hold the corn, there's a lot of the evidence for that in the college accounts certainly. +Military stores, every musketeer had to have at least two metres of match which was a fairly thick cord, which was used to ignite his musket, and if you start thinking about how many musketeers there were around in Oxford, a whole lot of match had to be stored. +That's quite combustible, sort of oiled cord. +erm And there was, of course, powder had to be stored as well . +And as well as that, beyond the city walls, fortifications were being erected all the way round the north of Oxford, the bits that weren't covered by the river. +That's another story, where they were, and if you're interested, downstairs there's a very good map that shows you superimposed on a modern map of Oxford where they were, but they very much affected citizens in the St Aldate's, because every citizen, and every scholar who was still in the university, between the ages of 16 and 60 had to work on the fortifications at least one day a week, or pay a shilling fine. +And getting them to work was a constant problem and collecting the fines, and we do actually know about this. +If you would like to look at the second sheet on your erm of the two that you've got, erm this really brings to mind , one day in St Aldate's, in the summer of 1643, when a very hard working, methodical loyal official, Edward Heath, was ordered by the King and his Council to walk around St Aldate's, and make a list of all the defaulters, all those who had failed to work on the fortifications. +erm And there are erm it's quite difficult to read until you get used to it, but erm the title is nice and easy, could I just have a copy, erm down there? +I don't want to deprive you. +erm Now, if you look at the top, you see the widow Smith's house, and then it says ‘the officers would not speak with him’. +Next to that would be a sort of double stroke in the margin, erm can you see the name Holloway erm Well, on the line below that, erm it's talking about the Earl of Newark and his servants, and then on the following line it says, ‘removed to Trinity College and son gone out of town’. +erm Now, there's a very nice one, if you move down to the single stroke, you see there are two 2s written, and below that there's a single stroke. +erm And if you look at the second line, and begin three words in, it says ‘the mistress,’ the mistress is abbreviated, ‘answers her man cannot work, nor can she spare him till she be paid for what her husband did for the King's soldiers’. +You can just imagine her standing arms, you know, just telling the man where he . +erm Perhaps you can begin to pick out where it keeps saying no Answer. +The next two in the margin, if you go further in you'll see a ‘noe answere’. +(It's always spelt N O E, and answer has an E.) One does have this feeling that people were getting wind of Mr Edward Heath walking down the street, and were going out the back doors of the house. +erm Yes, now if we get to about half way down there's a plus in the margin, and the third line in the bracket below that plus, more or less on a level with a three dot, and a little bit below, it says, William, I think it's Wilkinson, a minister, curate of St Ebbe's Parish, ‘his answer that he must attend the burials and christenings’, so obviously he couldn't work on the fortifications. +And then, if we go right down to the bottom, there's a whole lot bracketed together against the . +‘No answer, but that they would not pay’, they ought not to pay. +erm And one can go on picking out a great many of these people once you get used to the writing. +It is fairly easy to read, once you begin to get . +Now, as well as the fortifications, I think one wants to erm very much keep in mind that the citizens of St Aldate's were constantly being asked for money. +There were these big loans for instance, £2,500 once the city had to make to the king. +And this was collected by the parishes, and we know that St Aldate's had to pay £280, which along with All Saints, the city church, was the highest amount from all the various parishes. +And then there was money for maimed soldiers, for what they called visited persons, which was the plague, fire and candles for the courts of guards, that was paying for fire and candles for all the little sentinel posts round Oxford. +If they were freemen, they had to give up their right to graze in Port Meadow, because erm the hay was to be grown there, to be promised to His Majesty. +They had to perhaps give up their pots and pans, or they were supposed to. +Actually, a remarkably few were collected, to provide brass for armaments. +And there were actually arms collections too. +They were supposed to raiding the city regiments and paying for it, there was constant trouble for this, and the man who was appointed colonel by the king, Nicholas Selby, was very unpopular. +But I think the main thing that they all had to bear to survive, was a tremendous amount of overcrowding. erm Now, we're fast running out of time, aren't we. +What I am going to talk about next is erm I'll just mention that, about another 5 minutes, I think, will get us to the other great bit of work that poor old Edward Heath had to do in St Aldate's, which again, that gives us a great deal about the insight as to what it was like there. +erm I just put that up, which should have been up while we were talking about money, which is erm the beautiful Oxford crown, which you can see downstairs, which was minted at New Inn Hall, the college that emptied, and was turned into the mint, mostly from college plate. +erm And, of course, that was a symbol of all the problems of money that the king had, and the ordinary citizens of Oxford had in trying to provide him with it, mostly very reluctantly and unwillingly. +With everything going on about the Poll tax, it's extremely easy for us to understand how they felt. +Now, this is not an Oxford cartoon either, but it's a looting soldier, and very much, I think, underlines what people felt about soldiers around the place, and to go back to the overcrowding, erm the great problem was that constantly not only soldiers, but a great many other people, court officials, court servants, barbers, whoever, erm all had to found accommodation, and because St Aldate's was so near the court, a great many of them were of course connected with the court, they had some high ranking ones. +Now once again we know about this because Edward Heath was given another job, just about nine months later, the king had decided he would summon a parliament in Oxford erm and in January '44 it was due to meet, but where were the members who were going to come into Oxford to stay. +And so Edward Heath was sent round in January 1644, all the houses in St Aldate's to find out how many people were in them to see if there was any more room. +And once again of course, meticulously, he kept his records. +erm You can see, probably recognise the writing erm we've just been looking at. +This is his final total after he'd been all the way round St Aldate's, he went round 73 houses, and he says here, I think this is a sort of hieroglyphic that would probably mean something like 'item'. +Gentlemen and their men servants — 267, these are the extra people staying in the houses, not the people who lived in St Aldate's normally, women — 66, children under 16 years of age — 13, soldiers of the life-guards — 62, total in this parish — 408. +So that's 408 extra people living in St Aldate's houses. +Now, I think there's probably a very nice parallel here, I can't help thinking it was probably a bit better, must have been better organised in the Second World War, but there's going to be a erm special exhibition here isn't there, on memories of change on Oxford in the Second World War, and of course there were a great many extra people there too. +And, because Edward Heath is so meticulous, we do know who were in all these different houses. +erm I won't go through too many of them, erm but Blue Boar Inn, for instance, had 21 extra people, had some of the King's servants, some of the prince's servants, they had two Scottish peers, and their servants, £ 21 extra people, in a big inn, there were 14 rooms, I think, that were, could be called living rooms, but never-the-less, I think it must have been pretty crowded. +£ But I think to give us perhaps a more vivid idea of what it must have been like for ordinary people, these are 3 houses in St Aldate's that don't exist any more, they're down more-or-less where the police station is, erm and we do know exactly who lived there, and who was actually there during the war. +Sorry, I'm trying to find the right bit of paper. +There we are. +Right, now £ This is, yes, this is a fairly big house that was put together 31 and 32. +Then there was a erm largish house, this one, and then a very small one on the end. +And erm there has been some research done, they produced a plan of what they actually consisted of in the 17th century. +The top layer was built, that you saw in the photograph, was built later, so 31 and 32 had two rooms, erm on the ground floor, and 2 on the first floor, 33, which was smaller, but it does have a fair sized room, and another upstairs, and then the very small one is 34. +Now, in 31 and 32, lived a prosperous widow, the widow of a butcher, a mistress Jane Hawks, who was carrying on her husbands business, and doing quite well at it. +She had a step-son and a wife, but we don't quite know whether they were there or not. +But she also had living there a Colonel Stringer who was quite an important Scots Officer, three of his servants and a sergeant and one other soldier, so she had 6 extra people. +Next door was a parchment maker, who had one corporal billeted on him, but we also know that 2 soldiers died in his house, and so it's possible that he actually looked after wounded soldiers, which was, of course happening all over Oxford. +£ And then in the tiny house lived a widow, Elizabeth Treadwell, with one sergeant and two other lifeguards, so she had 3 soldiers in that tiny house. +What we don't know, of course, is how they organized their living accommodation, whether they ever got paid, they were given these sort of , £ tickets that were supposed to be honoured later on, but as far as we can make out, they hardly ever were, erm and how the people got on, we just have to use our imagination, but it is interesting that here for instance in these three, we actually apart from anything else have two women house-holders, who are obviously erm women who are carrying on business of some independence. +£ Well, I think I really had better stop there, and then if you want to ask any questions erm we can go into them, but perhaps I could just mention two things that I would like to have said more about, one was, that you probably know, there were three or two major epidemics in Oxford, of what they call plague, but it was probably a form of typhus, in 1643 and 44, and a good deal of sickness, I think, still in 1645, and the other was that there was a very serious fire, which almost certainly arose from these kind of living conditions, because Anthony Wood says it was a soldier roasting pig, erm and I think a lot of cooking went on in very unsuitable situations. +And the fire actually started beyond the North Wall, just by the North Gate, but the wind was blowing from the North, and it blew it down, and although it didn't burn the rather better stone houses, facing onto St Aldate's, erm behind I think a lot of the poorer houses did suffer, and St Ebbe's parish, next door, suffered a great deal, and because it was war, I think they just, the city council, city records lament that there how hard it is for people, and there's no money to help them. +So it's erm there was in fact a great petition made to the king on these very lines, really because of the fire. +So I think life was erm boring, tough, hard-working, pretty unpleasant during the war, erm and I think most of the citizens must have been very very relieved when the surrender finally came, and it brought no actual fighting, and at least the city was left reasonably unscathed. + +do you think it'd be a good idea if you started doing some revising I went oh yeah I'll have a think about it +and I sort of like walked out the door and went yeah I've thought about it . +going to me all my comments on my thing were really good. +Mine weren't bad. +Apart from given you a B yeah on why it's just hanging in, must try a lot lot harder, gives me a B and then erm someone gave me a C someone gave me a C and said oh yeah gave me a C yeah +and said coasting. +gave me a C yeah and said improved greatly from the last showed much better in his work and really trying hard and gave me a C. +yeah, I got f I got, my total marks I could've got was fifty eight and I got fifty four and she gave me a C and she said must improve your marks. +And he goes +Bloody hell. +he goes nah there must be something wrong with this she go he goes I can't, I don't think we can complain about that can we? +He's good about that. +He goes, he goes he goes, he goes +He doesn't just look at the mark. +I think we'll scrap cos you missed a week I went +She averaged practically all of my marks for some unknown reason. +What do you mean? +The total amount of marks possible was two hundred and five and I got a hundred and nineteen or something I don't know and , and goes yes I had to average five of his marks because he was absent. +Take averages of the classes. +Yeah but how comes for five? +I didn't miss five pieces of work, that's impossible. +Don't complain. +No I just, I just couldn't work out how he averaged five marks. +I only missed two preps. +That is strange. +In fact I only missed one prep. +Then he goes to me Alistair ex extra curricula and he go erm hockey, cross and rugby and he goes mm how about a bit of culture? +I go er what do you mean? +He goes pottery? +He said that Julian +And I go sorry, and he goes makes a jolly good Christmas gift and I go I can't do it +and he goes how about music +he said erm how about music, are you musically minded? +And I go and he goes no I didn't think so. +You've done it! +Fucking hell mate. +What you on about? +Oh he goes to me, he goes to me Jimmy what, he goes, cos I, you know all that extra curricula bit yeah? +Yeah. +I put going down to the English Centre and using the computer +quiet period. +Bollocks. +and he goes what are you using the quiet, what are you using the erm computers for in your quiet periods? +I said well I'm not very good on computers and I've got loads of coursework so I thought if I go down there and type out different pieces of work it would get me familiarized with them +Oh you're such a bullshitter . +and he, and he goes, he goes oh that's a very good idea, he goes don't make it I haven't got +got a +and he goes no neither have I +Yeah it's yours. +he goes and he goes +It's been recording since you lot have been talking. +I don't mind. +I've got nothing to hide. +I don't care either. +Can you turn +Down? +Down or up? +Down. +I'm not bothered either erm and he goes he goes, he goes I haven't got the best handwriting and by the looks of things neither has Mr it's completely changed from the first three weekly you had. +He goes you haven't got a new R S teacher have you ? +I went nah. +Er nah! +Nah! +And he goes to me, he goes to me so have you thought about my, my suggestion of pottery, I went yeah, and I threw it out the window. +Cos it was actually quite safe the way you walked in here. +It's, it's a really safe bloke actually. +You walked in and you goes Melissa and Rupert goes ooh !and I could see Rupert and then you go, I go Rupert I go +She scares me that woman. +Spanish and he goes, he knew what I was talking about so all of a sudden he goes ah so tell me a bit about this erm this Melissa so I said +You're kidding! +so I said erm +Oh you git! +so I said to him erm +You can't discuss my l bloody life +So I said erm she's Spanish and he goes ah! +Spanish are nice w nice girls +Oh you git! +so he goes oh if she's at and he goes ah right, right +Oh you're such a +so I had to make conversation then I said erm so how are the old Colts B doing and he goes er had a bit of a junior +You made conversation with him! +junior Colts, sorry junior Colts, and he said erm ah had a bit of a roll at the beginning and then towards the end now we've sort of lost loads in a row so I said, he said alright I said about the same with us then I was, so I said it's cold and he said mm yes it is rather. +What did he say? +He goes to me, he goes to me he goes, I don't actually he goes if there's one good thing about your three weekly Jimmy there's never any Ds on it but there's never ever blooming As either why not ? +So I goes, I went +Oh my God! +well sir tt I think that er I don't think many teachers like marking my work and he goes oh why's that? +I said cos it's not very good +and he starts going yes well I think we'd better try and get a few As on there hadn't we and +I got good end of term report. +He goes Alistair, what is happening? +The two main subjects that are really gonna matter, maths and English, one says you can't stop mucking around +Is that English? +and you ask daft stupid questions +Is er +yeah, and then he goes +he gave me poor result. +then maths and he goes but maths he says you're half asleep all the time, I mean you're not doing any work at all. +So I said well sir I find maths really boring and I walk into this classroom and it's all painted the same with this blackboard in front and I just find it boring, he goes yes guess who he was taught by at rugby? +Your favourite maths teacher he was taught by . +Serious? +Bloody hell. +Is he any good at maths? +No I would say he's crap. +I thought he might be. +Oh shut up! +I sat, I'm, I'm sa I'm si I'm sitting there yeah +and he goes he goes well +most expensive +oi oi I'm sitting there yeah and he +and he, I've got all these marks yeah and he goes oh well that's roughly about seventy percent oh that's about sixty that's about fifty and he goes yes well there's, there's nothing to worry about, there's no great alarm bells ringing yet. +He said there were warning bells for me. +And he said, he said, he said it's n he said, he goes to me, he looks at it for about five minutes and goes it'll do, it'll do. +So I went thanks sir and he goes, he goes +Price per ton. +he goes who else is in your neck of the woods, I went +It's what he said to me. +I was gonna say Alistair but then I thought he's in the loo so I can't. +Anyway so he goes is James there and I went yeah and he goes mm, so I went I think so, I'd better go and get him hadn't I +But I walk in yeah and he goes he goes hold on, now you're Alistair, and I go yeah, and he goes I think I've just given your three weekly to Jimmy. +And he go I go no I don't think so. +And he goes well James came and said, he goes ah so Jimmy found him and he and James goes ooh no Alistair found me. +Melissa phoned in prep. +No. +Prep, again! +In prep. +I knew that cos Lewis picked it up. +Lewis picked it up? +Lewis, yeah. +Did Lewis speak to you? +Lou he told me. +He said I've got a bit of news for you +No he came over to the study, he came over to the study and he said er he comes in and he goes +He told me. +Melissa Rupert goes ooh shit! +Oh you're in here . +Yeah. +Oh it was really funny +Oh sorry aren't I allowed to be Garfield. +Yeah yeah yeah +Oh it's not Captain Pugwash any more Al. +What is it? +Garfield. +He's a little fat sweet thing in he? +Oh sh +Have you seen his slippers? +He's got good slippers. +No I'm talking about +They've got massive eyes on the front of them like out here. +can't feel anything anyway you tit. +What's wrong with it. +It's dead innit?and I can't feel it. +It's dead innit Jimmy we're being recorded on a linguistics tape. +Are we? +Yeah. +This looks really good this little thing. +It's called be free. +Hello in there ah ah ah oh Jim oh oh oh +There's widespread bullying. +Ah ah ah ah ah! +Oh shut up. +tickle ah +He doesn't tickle that side . +That sounds really bad on the tape when you beat him up. +Ah ah ah ah! +I wasn't beating him up I was tickling him. +No it doesn't tickle it hurts . +No do +No not again. +I've got bad indigestion. +You lying git. +Indigestion . +That's what you get when you're an old bastard. +Or trapped wind, whatever you wanna call it. +farts. +Oh no that's not recording is it? +Yes it is. +It's been recording since you came in. +just swear? +I can't remember, did you? +Eh soon find out. +It doesn't matter it's been recording for ages. +So what, where's this page and a half that you said +Oh please can I just have a look +No ! +To see how well it's copied out the book. +Do as your big brother tells you. +Why? +What for? +You might wanna, you've never written that much in your life. +Ah ah ah +Don't swear! +Cameron don't poke him with long poles. +Bet that bleeding hurt. +Get lost I'm trying to do my chemistry prep. +You are stupid! +Cameron you really shouldn't poke your poles up his bottom. +Thanks Jim. +Why do you? +No I don't. +Oh bollocks I can't write that it's +a bit of the old incest. +That's disgusting, +Just let me have a quick look +Have you two got the same prep? +Yeah. +We have most things, we have most things the same. +Yeah cos they're all in the same set, cos they're, cos they're bo cos all of them are thick. +And what are you in Jimmy? +I'm in the sets above them. +So he should be in the set below us. +Ah that really hurt that +I'm in set free for French. +Set free. +Three! +Set three for science. +Spelt F R E E. +Jimmy you're on a linguistic +I'm in, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in I'm in +are you? +I'm in the same set, I'm in the same set for him as maths. +M A F S . +And history. +And history. +That's alright that one. +What else am I in? +Begun with an H. +Turn up the music a bit. +First of all you tell me to turn it down and then you tell me to turn it up. +another bit of music for about two minutes. +I'll have to get up tonight fucking loads of work to do. +You always have loads of work +Hey that's my job, leave him alone. +How's it going Garf? +Garf? +Garfield. +Oh. +Oh yeah he does look a bit like Garfield. +Do you wanna sod off! +Is that, whose, is that yours Alistair? +What? +The speaking into a banana . +What's he on? +A monkey talking to a banana. +Why do you think it's rude Nick? +Yes. +A monkey talking to the banana +He's speaking to it what he's doing with that. +Oi I need that . +So do I. +It's my sheet. +It's the telephone James. +Oh shut up. +Yeah at twenty past. +Yeah he's supposed to be in bed by +Oh I'd better go. +Yes I think you'd better. +Right okay. +I'll see you later mate. +See you. +Yeah but don't forget to try again . +And tell her to pick me up at ten thirty. +Not ten thirty, twelve thirty. +Ten thirty? +You gonna skive lessons? +Truancy. +Truancy. +Yeah. +Whose is the other one? +See we're not nought percent, the other one +Whose is the other one? +Thanks Nick. +Oh my God! +I haven't seen that one before +That was house, last year. +He was off his face a bit. +Christmas celebration. +Pissed as a fart. +You're not meant to do that, it's not meant to be like that. +Right see you, bye. +Well it is now innit? +What's that? +Linguistics. +Yeah! +Do they give you headphones as well? +Do you get to keep them? +Oh yeah! +No but wants to know if you get to keep all the tapes cos he want to them all. +I know. +He's gonna +He's gonna chief them. +Chief 'em he's gonna chaff 'em all. +He's going to take them without you're knowing. +Mm. +James. +Spastic. +More reactive metals are more abundant in the earth's crust as one can see by looking at the grass. +I can't think what else to write. +Oh hold on. +I've just been doing the wrong question. +I called it question one it's question six, oopsy, seven. +Using the table two, where's that? +Thanks James, here we are. +I've done that. +and try to explain why gold is more expensive than silver. +Gold is the +Well she'd just be calling back about now. +abundant. +My little friend. +Gold is the least abundant +I need that . +and +Why ? +least reactive +Oh no. +Aluminium is more expensive than iron. +Please could you refrain from using such a +Aluminium is more expensive than iron +as it is disrupting my mind patterns. +Yeah? +because it +Oh mate! +is +take it down Hertford. +harder +I'll take it round Simon +extract +and get the +Which is worse +product out. +copper is more expensive than aluminium. +Oi will you give me the question sheet, I need it! +No, wait. +Buy your own. +It is mine! +are not the only factors that affect the price of metals other factors might be important. +Is that the last question? +No. +We've got chemistry. +We haven't got chemistry till the afternoon. +I know. +I know. +I don't know why I'm doing it. +easily found +Right on. +They'll get bust and erm +He'll sit on them. +Well no but if I do bust 'em +Whether or not they are easily found +Can you buy them again? +or easily +What? +ex +Oh cos I wanna get some headphones cos +extracted +earphones just sort of pl go on the outside of your ear whereas the er headphones actually go inside your ears. +It saves battery power that's all. +Cos you +How can you save battery power? +No cos you, you only have to have it on volume three to get the same amount of noise out instead of volume two. +So if you're playing rave and you have it on volume two really really +Easily extracted +I've gotta get a new pair of headphones +I don't know, I was listening to one of my headphones, alright I pulled it out +And it broke. +and like a little speaker bit stayed inside my ear and the outer bit came out and +I don't know what happened cos they were alright before. +It is easily obtained. +Have you seen Mark 's erm earphones? +Headphones. +Like in gold, they're sort of I mean they're not real gold, gold plated on the outside. +Question nine. +Imagine a world in which gold and silver were cheap but iron and aluminium were rare, what advantages would there be making a car from gold instead of iron and saucepans from silver instead of aluminium. +Well he's got two Walkmans himself, his mum's got one, his brother's got one. +They're all like really flush gits. +reactive, reactive and +Who? +turn it down, and it's on volume one or something. +This doesn't make sense. +I can't be bothered to do this. +I'm doing question ten tomorrow. +Hit all the lights, let's have some light in this room. +This is such a massive room, there's so many lights. +It's freezing as well. +Absolutely freezing. +Freezing freezing freezing freezing bloody hell it's cold. +It is freezing cold and here we are in lessons ready to get completely bored by our headmaster Mr Jimmy +Yes thank you Jimmy. +Go on chuck it on someone's head, go on. +Shall I chuck it? +Yeah. +Just chuck it. +Go on jump down and get it. +! +Disgusting. +How dare you. +It wasn't me. +God you lot are awful. +Yes sir. +You sure? +Yeah po +Yeah I've just been through there. +I'll just check again. +liar. +He's lying. +Eh? +Sir it's locked. +It's a good thing he made you check wasn't it? +That man who was shouting was Mr a complete and utter headcase. +Sir can you chuck the keys up and unlock it. +And then keep the keys. +I wouldn't trust him with the keys. +I wouldn't trust him with anything. +I wouldn't trust him +Yeah go on sir. +I wouldn't sir. +I'll guess. +it's the big one, the big . +Oh I've got the I can see it fr +Er that one there. +Got you. +That's not the big one sir. +Yeah. +Cheers. +Which one is it? +The one with the big teeth. +It's the one with the big teeth. +Got it. +Yeah. +This Julian person we're referring to is, is a complete and utter crimple +Complete and utter. +And he's a bit ooh Julian, Julian, Julian, Roberto hairdresser, that kind of +Sir I've done it. +Sir mind your eyes sir. +Well caught sir. +! +Ollie what have you done to the back of your jacket? +think I might stop now as there's too, recording's gonna be getting a bit difficult. +Oh no! +What? +Something's going on. +What? +I think I've got the wrong battery. +What am I like? +Dunno. +We are now in the studies What's this? +Oh no, lots of work. +How horrible. +Right. +What's going on? +Maths project on drugs. +Right. +Now the formula +is either a half or minus one times minus two or +or it's a half N minus one times N minus two over two. +Have you got a pen? +And it's for one of the regions it's a closed one. +Which regions? +What is it? +Half +Lines to closed regions? +Are you talking about regions? +No, half N minus one. +Half brackets N minus one. +Yeah. +Times N minus two +What are you doing? +And I'm not sure if it's over two or not. +You are a sad bastard . +Thank you. +this? +Leave it. +What's it doing? +Recording what we're saying, linguistics thing for Norway. +Really? +So is it recording me? +yeah. +Yes. +It's recording you personally +You see this thing did you buy this separately or did it come in the Walkman? +We were lent them. +Lent them? +Yeah. +By who? +Norwegian government. +No b university. +These or the Walkmans as well? +Both. +Does the Walkman have to be a special type? +No to record that. +But I mean like could you plug that into a normal Walkman? +Don't know. +had a record button. +Yeah you can. +But it has to have a record button? +Yeah. +Yeah. +That's got a record button. +I can see, I can see it's got a record button. +Yeah I just thought I'd point it out to you. +I know you did. +Can we listen to this? +Can we wind it back and listen to it? +No! +No recorded lots of conversations. +Ru can I borrow some of your erm , just a little bit? +No. +Why? +Cos I need it. +The bastard. +Have you got any +Ji ple er Ru please! +No. +Please! +That's all I've got till the end of term. +Please! +No. +Please. +If I bring you in a bottle of concentrate? +No. +You do know what he just said? +A bottle. +I'll bring you in a bottle of concentrate. +Concentrate of what? +Floor cleaner. +Ah listen right, our cleaner upstairs yeah you know sh that these cleaners the new ones we've got are really good yeah? +Yeah. +The cleaner upstairs, she asked me to find out what kind of cakes everybody liked cos she's buying every single person an individual, like you know, a single cake for everybody. +Not like a big one to share like she's buying everybody a cake each. +It's fucking brilliant. +The one who's down here as well? +Shit they didn't record that did they? +It doesn't matter. +Well I said a rude word. +Well no it doesn't matter er +Anonymity guaranteed. +it doesn't matter +Anonymity +Pissing hell! +Anona anona +anonymity +That's the one. +Yeah. +is guaranteed so it doesn't really matter. +And then just use bits of the tapes. +So they won't use +I should imagine. +they won't use the bit where we say fuck fuck fuck +Fuck. +she, she's brilliant so we're gonna ask if she can be, well we've asked, she's coming to our house dinner you know +ask that bloke. +Well what, what are you gonna do, go up and ask the bloke oh can you buy me a cake ? +Well no but he's not our cleaner. +No that's what +cleaner, she's +Oh right. +Yeah. +Cos she's down here quite a lot of the time. +Yeah. +Yeah but she's only down here to get things from the cleaning cupboard and stuff. +I've seen, I've seen her sweeping. +She swept earlier on today! +She sweeps everywhere continually, she always sleeping, sweeping isn't she? +I know er she sweeps in the hearth at lunchtime +I know +and first thing in the morning. +I know th they're brilliant she's +She's really good. +And they're really friendly as well aren't they? +I know. +They're always saying hello +She's, she's, she's really friendly right. +driving past in that little Rascal van +That, that woman yeah she's upstairs and you go up there in the morning and she's on her hands and knees on your carpet sweeping your carpet cos she hasn't got a hoover. +Oh we get a hoover. +But she's on your +cheapos +Have you worked out or not? +No she said she +Well can I just lift this up and just like speak into it? +Yeah it's recording you know it's +sensitive, don't cos that sounds really bad. +Oh I see the level thing comes up. +If you shout does it go even oh it does just about go higher. +Yeah +Wow! +No go and have some more scintillating conversation with Ross. +Go and speak to Ross. +Oh you fucking reek of onion as well. +Don't you like onion? +No. +Do you know what Charlie said to him tonight? +No what did he, what did he say? +Yeah he's gonna take him to the master. +Charlie is gonna take James to the master. +Yes. +But you could you could bug someone probably like say that was covered up you could talk to them and make, they wouldn't even realize they were being +Shut up will you. +Sorry I thought that was quite +Could you, could you plug this into like a dictaphone? +Yeah. +Yeah as long as it's got a recording +Well of course dictaphones have always got records on them, that's why they're called dictaphones. +Oh sorry. +Yeah cos you dictate into them. +Oh be quiet! +Oh be quiet and will it pick it up as well if you do that? +If I do that. +Yes it can pick it up. +Yeah it picks everything up. +Look. +that's brilliant. +Shit I've gotta get one of these. +if you pick another button it tells you how much battery power you've got left. +Look. +Look that's how much battery power I've got left. +You've got loads basically. +Yeah. +He's got four packets of batteries. +And about ten tapes. +Hang on a minute. +have you seen the tapes as well? +What all supplied by the Norwegian government? +Have you seen the tapes? +Have you seen these tapes? +Well of course I have. +Brilliant tapes. +Shit! +C D recording type. +What and they're all supplied by the Norwegian government? +streamlined as well +all rounded at the edge. +Yeah that's, they're new cases here though are, well no have you seen the cases here they're even more, they're even more than that. +I know. +You know you said these were all by the, are you, when are you going to Norway? +Are you going with like +No. +Is he going to Norway! +They're being sent to Norway cos they are, they are +I said when is he going to Norway not is he going +I'm not going to Norway. +The lady came here on, on, when was it? +Thursday +Well what, what how come, why, well who did she talk to? +Anyone in +No it was offered, it was offered around and me and said yeah we'd do it. +It's a linguistic thing to find out how upper class exclusive +We're, we're known as upper class teenagers. +Oh, oh we're upper class school children are we now? +Oh that's fantastic ! +No you're not. +You can try. +That's exactly what he sounds like when it's played back. +What? +When I talk on it. +When I talk on it . +He listens, he listens to it afterwards and he goes no I can't understand, well now I can, now I can understand why they take the piss out of me for my voice . +Oh shut up. +Don't, it's so sensitive I promise. +Look the recording level is +Yeah so, so then who did she offer it round to? +Charlie ch ch Mr came and said, Charlie, came and said erm +Charlie ? +Yeah +Yeah the bald one. +The, what the bald, fat coot? +Came and said okay who wants to do this and me and +said yeah we'd do it. +The little cunt who made me parade in front of him at eight thirty in the morning so I erm +That's the one. +Pardon me. +We'll probably, you'll probably have someone like Mr listening to this tape. +Good, fuck off Mr +No just take, just take them back. +oh it was brilliant. +ah he was so class, he was brilliant. +He's so +He's, he's he's so much better than Mr +Shit that's good. +Can we listen back to it please, can we just listen to it and we'll go back to the same place? +can't cos I have to take it out and +Oh just quick! +No cos I have to plug in earphones. +No you don't. +Yes I do. +Can't you plug it into the stereo? +No. +Yeah but I just don't want to have to take it out +What the fuck's this? +Just leave, Ben just leave it. +marked on the +Is this so you can make do they let you keep the stuff at the end? +Oh right on! +That'd be quite good. +Don't cos I swear when it, I did that and it sounds deafening cos th look how high the recording level is. +But it's always that high even when I'm speaking now it's going that high. +No but recording level here is on ten, I'm not sure I'll turn it down. +Right it's low. +oh it is. +You could put it like, like that couldn't you? +No cos I don't like you. +How long have you got it for? +Till Friday. +Till Friday, is that all? +Mm. +This Friday? +Next week. +Next week. +When did you get it? +Thursday. +Yesterday? +I haven't done one tape, this is my first tape and the first side. +Oh she's gonna be pleased with you +No +How many tapes did she give you? +Ten. +Do you have to give them all back? +No! +Come on +No. +We're upper class teenagers Ben. +So? +Not young louts. +well one of us is a young lout, we won't say who. +Give me one please. +Can I have one please? +No. +Thank you. +Just cos it's your birthday I might as well give you one I suppose +It's my birthday but I didn't tell anyone cos I don't want a cold bath. +I almost got away with it until saw two letters +Ah these taste disgusting, what are they? +Pear drops. +I love them. +That's something you take when you're feeling ill. +You're not kidding. +No well you don't have to take them when you're ill, you're allowed to take them when you're feeling alright an'all. +Am I? +Yeah. +There's no point in staring at it, it's not gonna say hello. +Hello! +It might do. +Hey did you see the helicopter ? +I know. +Fucking low. +No it was low +Wonder if they realize that upper class teenagers like us say fuck rather a lot. +Did they realize do you think? +They realize now. +Go on Jimmy, what's your comment on this? +Oh fuck +We could listen to these all at the end. +conversation. +Actually you should like +After you finish your first tape can we rewind it and so we can all listen to it and then rewind it back so they don't +You should +so they don't know we've done it. +well you should copy these tapes +no listen right you should copy these cos when you're like older you're gonna want to erm listen to what you used to say and like what it used to be like and you've got +about ten tapes that you don't wanna use? +No but just one tape see, I mean one and then when you're older you'll have a tape of what you used to sound like. +Why do Nor why do Norwegian people +To know how we speak. +But wh what do they care? +Norwegian, can they speak English? +Yeah. +Suppose they can. +But why do they want them, I mean what are they gonna use it for? +I don't know. +I think I've just spelt friends wrong haven't I? +How do you spell friend? +No that's right. +That's it. +No it's E I. +Friend, friends. +Friend friends? +Friends, occupation age fifteen +that? +Is that me? +Well how comes you've got me down there already? +It's what I have to do. +Oh go away otherwise you'll be on the tape. +Fuck off we don't want you on the tape. +They don't wanna know that we have upper class children like you here. +Au revoir. +Or sprechen as they say in Norway +Shut up Ben. +Norwegians +They'll probably send some bloke over to do you over. +as well. +You can soon go and ask them cos some git's gonna be coming over and hitting you for taking the +What the hell's he doing? +Being very drunk, that's what he's doing. +Why's he dressed as a clown? +He's not he's dressed as Father Christmas! +Father Christmas! +Well why's he got on like a big thing round his neck, a ruff. +It's a beard you idiot . +It's not a fucking beard, that's not what a beard l if he could ever grow a beard like that I'd bloody give him +Yeah. +A blow job. +you've still got this poster, +What poster? +Which poster? +Shut up. +do you know why she did it? +I went erm excuse me can you clean something please, like this yeah and she kind of went you little shit, I'm gonna get my husband to come and break your legs +No Ben, please. +You're just ruining it +I promise, I won't ruin it I promise. +Read that. +No no I just wanna +Oh is it? +You can have Piers, not literally, I mean just on the tape. +Well you can have him on the tape +which is on top of the table . +Do you mind! +Well why don't you go and sit down there? +Cos it's more comfortable here. +I said why don't you go and sit down there. +Oh +I am sitting down here thank you very +Yes! +Ah! +Ah ah ah. +There it is, I found it. +What, the problem page? +Yeah. +You are +That's what you need . +Oh read 'em out, give them a laugh, they probably don't get Sky in Sweden or Norway. +No. +Let me find a good one. +Yeah please let him read them out. +Go on. +Otherwise it's stupid. +There's no point in me doing it I mean if I could just hear Ben going ah ah ah +You've squashed my shoe! +Get out! +Yeah. +Out. +Listen to this I think you should feature a special one off page on different types of masturbation techniques for men, most of us learn from our experiments, what do you think? +I spent many sleepless nights tossing and turning +I'm gonna do my chemistry. +Haven't you finished? +In the early nineteen eighties the recession in industrialized countries caused the price of aluminium to fall +so the Jamaicans not need to mine +I'm not doing any maths I can't concentrate on maths. +as quickly +as normal. +because the need for it was not as great. +Ben shut up, you can't sing. +That's right. +Are you in a squeak society? +Mhm I'm in three squeak societies, four squeak societies. +Ben +That's embarrassing. +Oh no not that one. +We can't have a squeak in this room. +Get out. +I'm not a fucking squeak I'm just in a choir. +Yeah, precisely . +Ah that just shows your ignorance dunnit really? +Yeah I'm a member of that one. +Shows my ignorance. +Yeah if you weren't ignorant you'd know there's four parts to a choir and not just one section. +With a laugh like that you've gotta be. +Oh you're so funny. +Sorry it's your +sorry it's your birthday I shouldn't say anything. +It's alright I know I take the piss out of you every other day of the year but today I will not from now on. +You have been. +You never take the piss out of me. +You'd better start then I suppose. +My boyfriend and I have been going out for six weeks and everything is wonderful but it takes me honestly two hours to reach orgasm. +I often find myself bonking into unconsciousness before I can come +Unconsciousness! +I think she's joking . +You stupid sod. +Who you talking to ? +See you later Mark, get your hair cut while you're there. +Poofter +You nineteen quid. +No listen, listen you've gotta listen to this my girlfriend and I have sex whenever we can and really enjoy it oral sex but we have heard that sexually transmitted diseases can be passed on by drinking each other 's juices from oral sex, is this true ? +drinking juice from oral sex the glass gets in the way, the carton falls over and bent straws +So stupid. +Now I'm going to do some work. +See you later +Yeah see you later. +Gotta make sure Grub hasn't nicked anything he's a dodgy little geezer. +Dodgy little geezer. +I'm not a dodgy little geezer. +Yeah! +I'm not a dodgy k +Shut up . +How much more of this tape? +Oh I haven't got much to go now. +Okay +What? +Nothing. +listen to this,I'm becoming increasingly aware that my landlady's been making sexual passes at me, I didn't take them seriously until she climbed in the shower with me +Oh no! +Mm la la la la I'm bored, bored bored bored. +Chemistry, physics, Spanish. +Chemistry none, physics none Spanish none. +Have you stopped that blinking tape yet? +No. +Haven't got much to go though. +Thought we were doing the other side. +You can give me a few at a time if you like. +I've only got two left. +Oh have you? +Hard luck. +That one +Read it. +and that one. +Read it. +Actually not that top one. +Ben do you mind erm breaking the study every time you sit down? +I haven't broken the fucking furniture. +Yes you have. +Is this today's paper? +What? +Today's paper. +Rupert. +Is it over here? +Oh hold on I've got it. +No you haven't. +Yes I have. +This is awful about these kids. +Yeah. +So bad. +Imagine being one of their parents. +Are we still working on those jobby,jobs today in physics? +No +watch the video. +Oh yeah +Oh we could tape, tape 's lesson. +Yeah! +And then if he asks you what you're doing just say it's for like, you know, a project we're supposed to be doing. +No cos it's meant to be normal conversation. +Well it will be a conversation, it'll be a lesson, we have conversations in lessons. +And they'll be able to experience what you say to each other whilst you're having lessons in England. +No it's not very practical. +Yeah all you here is practical. +Practical. +Practical. +Well fair enough, but it's not very practical therefore who's marking his work? +alright, who's marking his work, Steve 's work, er +Mr +Mr what are you doing? +Ah! +Oh my God +No listen to this one +No wait wait wait wait, go on. +I've been dating a wonderful chick for two years now but she's just too frigid, sex is out of the question so one night I masturbated and pulled too hard on the sensitive part of my penis, now the tissues around the foreskin are swollen and septic but I'm too distressed and embarrassed to see a doctor and my f girlfriend wants nothing to do with me, I find it hard to urinate what can I do ? +Well I don't know what you're doing now +Commit suicide quick. +You know how they say they were driving home to erm +Who? +you know this erm erm minibus crash? +Oh yeah. +Erm most were dozing as the minibus headed home in the small hours from the ni the school's prom concert at the Royal Albert Hall in London, the impact as the Ford Transit driven by the teacher Emma Fry thirty five, ploughed into the back of a stationary motorway maintenance lorry +Mm? +And that's, that's what they did, they hit a stationary +I know but do you know what, do know what I reckon +do you know what I reckon happened? +What? +I reckon the teacher fell asleep at the wheel. +No. +Why? +Oh it could easily be. +It's like obvious. +The three survivors were pulled clear as the er in the, in the moment before the vehicle exploded into a ball of flame . +He gave me a fucking bad ticket the bastard. +He gave me one too you know. +Yeah but I got more than you. +What did you get? +Shit I, I was on the wrong prep and bad mark +What d'ya get? +Three out of twenty. +And he gave me a bad ticket, bastard. +Who's that, Rupert? +I got one. +Charlie got +kicked in the door as well. +Same day I kicked in the door. +Yeah I thought you kicked the door because you did that? +No. +No he just walked through the door and the panel fell +I walked in the door and the fucking panel fell out. +Literally walked through the door? +Yeah . +Well no, +Well you know when you walk through the door out there you put your foot like that and go well Rupert went like that and but his foot went straight through +They're such cheapskates you know they put the same panel back on. +Yeah on the other side. +They've just put a new piece of wood on the back. +But wouldn't it just be cheaper to buy the new, new, just buy a new, just buy a new panel +Well it wouldn't be cheaper. +No they just put chipboard behind it so it stays there. +It's just 's such a cheapskate. +This school is so cheap! +We have like, we have hundreds of crap facilities rather than just a few good ones. +And we can't even get a decent piece of grub round this place now. +We can't even,and the worse thing is we can't even get a decent piece of grub round this place any more. +We can't even get a decent piece of grub. +No it sounds like you're meant to be doing . +No look speak normally because +speak normally +Speak normally +Biggest ever bag. +It's fucking massive yeah the bag's big but what you get inside is exactly the same. +nice to have a little bit of your concentrate. +No ! +Please. +No it's mine, it's all mine. +Rain Man was on tonight. +I know. +Actually I tell you one good thing about being in this choir yeah, I'm in this little choir tonight,choir yeah, +So's casual sex. +which is only about +which is only, which is only about like eight or nine people yeah? +Oh so you're the creme de la choir. +and we've got to, we've got to sing for the master +Creme de la +and his, and his friends and that yeah and erm so we're all, we don't have to go to supper and we're getting, we're all getting +His friends? +pizza from Pizzahut. +His friends, he hasn't got any friends. +Well okay then, acquaintances. +Well it's not my fault he's a bastard. +We all get in there and he goes sit down please did you see about half the people sat down before he +I know. +And then everyone stood up again. +It was well funny. +He goes now you may sit down please . +Did he? +Did he say now? +Did you hear him at chapel? +He goes +it's not funny, you can't take the piss out of all those poor people that died. +I'm not I'm taking the piss out the way he said it. +There's a difference. +Oh sure it's still disrespectful. +No it's not. +No it isn't . +Yes it is. +No it's not disrespectful to how he said something. +It's not. +It's just the way he speaks, he's, he was trying to put across a really serious point. +He was trying to put across a serious point. +Yes, yeah he was trying to put across a serious point but he didn't really succeed cos everybody just takes the piss out of his voice. +That's just the way he speaks though. +No I, I didn't I didn't take the piss out of him, I listened, I actually +Okay, okay, okay +Listen, listen, listen I'm not taking the piss out of the point cos I know the point's very serious but I'm taking the piss out of the way he said it cos I think he sounded stupid but that doesn't mean I have any disrespect for erm +Innocent little children. +Yeah, quite. +Very sad. +Well they're not so much children actually they were about eighteen. +twelve. +Twelve. +We're talking about the people who died in the first world war. +taking the piss out of them. +I thought you were talking about this morning. +No I was taking the piss out of when you were in the remembrance service when +No we're not talking about today! +Oh. +Oh you stupid +It is! +It's not. +It is . +They died so we could live. +Yeah I know all that but I'm not taking the piss out of that cos obviously the way he said it! +Probably shagging some camel or something. +Shagging some +why would they be shagging a camel ? +Not but they might be shagging camels and then all the camels got +they say the British were shagging penguins +Let me just put this on pause for a bit. + +Oh no, but if we start banging on here isn't it going to reverberate? +That's in case, there's an awful lot of table banging in this meeting! +I mean, would you assume Jeremy we're going to be Corpusized? +Yeah, you're going to be corpusized, yes. +I don't say very much anyway. +It is. +It's actually going to go in the special category of peripheral material. +What do you mean peripheral? +Flipping heck. +I don't mind being recorded, but I don't want to be made peripheral. +The Oxford Rob Maidment corpus. +Oh, nice pen! +Where did you get that? +Well, good afternoon then folks, and welcome to the Electronic Publishing Group meeting! +You don't have to hammer it out just because we're being recorded Jeremy! +Just cracked my knuckles rather as well. +Let's press on quickly because I'm sure we've all got plenty of other things to get on, with apologies for absence. +I have apologies from Vicki Whadcoat, who apparently is in Paris licking stamps for a week. +That's a joke though +Any other apologies. +erm I don't know anything about the publicity people, but I thought that had been decided at the, is that right? +Are we expecting them? +We would have expected them at the beginning, and as we are still at the beginning, they ought to be here. +Perhaps we should. +Should we give them a ring? +It's on there. +It's Cathy really, isn't it, and Paul +Paul, yes, Give Paul a call. +Why's his number been scratched off here? +He's probably been down here already and scratched his number off. +Well, when they turn up we'll +Cathy, hi, it's Tim here. +We're down in I37 having our group meeting +Anyone not got one of these? +Is Paul there too. +Could you come down? +We're just making sure. +Okay, leave a message with him. +Okay, see you in a couple of minutes. +Okay. +Cheers. +What about Paul? +Paul's in a meeting, but she's going to try and pick him up on the way, or leave a note for him to follow on. +Shall we press on anyway with the minutes of the last meeting? +Yes +Can I make a suggestion. +Well, it crossed my mind that actually a few of the headings here are actually duplicated by the Video Work in Progress meeting, so whether we want to cover them again in this meeting I don't know, because we had a meeting yesterday which covered some of these things and their minutes are then available. +Absolutely, yes, I mean, I followed an entirely erm conventional format for the agenda here, I mean we, do we have a, all I was thinking of doing was checking whether these minutes are a true representation of last week, and if they are, we'll press on to matters arising, yes? +And if there are few matters arising, it's all to the good. +I think on those Work in Progress meetings, I think you ought to circulate those, the minutes of those meetings, to the whole group, it would be helpful. +Good, yes. +Circulate it from the , I haven't, I'm afraid I haven't had any. +They've been done, have they, they haven't been circulated, but they're available. +But if everybody would like them? +Who would like them? +Well, I get them. +Well, four of us, sorry, five of us, certainly need them. +These three don't. +Probably you don't want to. +Well, I wouldn't mind a copy. +Scrap paper! +Who actually sits in on these video meetings. +These four. +Plus Vicki. +I don't sit in on the general meeting, no. +You're very welcome. +You don't tell me when they are, so how can I? +I thought it was all a plot! +We never know when they are either! +A buzzer rings and we have a meeting. +So, erm Rob is to inform Simon of these video group meetings, and is to circulate minutes to those present, and Simon if he's not present, and if he is then he gets them anyway, and to Peter who probably won't be present, but will get the minutes. +They probably ought to go to Paul Ralph. +Yes, they should. +And Paul Ralph in publicity. +Well, basically everyone that's present at these meetings should get our Work in Progress meeting minutes. +Except Jeremy and Caroline, who are not really that interested +Okay, well, we can always choose not to read them! +You can borrow mine. +Why not circulate them to the whole group. +Circulate them to the whole group, right. +Does that deal with your little point? +Are there any other pressing matters arising from these things that we should deal with in these minutes. +Anything pressing? +Matters arising? +What have we got? +There is one matter that I would like to add +Yes +Just the handling of equipment, and the new video equipment being delivered, and the hope that the division will invest in its own equipment, erm maybe it's just a question really, don't know if people here could help to answer it, but erm the more video equipment we have the more problems we have actually with erm just keeping it all up together, keeping it all working, and it is a constant problem with stuff being borrowed and coming back with bits missing or bits not functioning, mostly leads. +erm There's all different types of leads required now. +erm In other areas erm of the press there are people who actually maintain equipment. +Because, I S for example look after you know, whatever they look after. +We're sort of outside of that area so I don't know what we do about our video equipment, but I think it would be beneficial if there were somebody we could call on to sort out problems for us, who actually understood all the stuff. +That's the other problem, it's getting so complicated that I don't understand half of it myself. +You want a service engineer? +That sort of thing? +Not so much that? +Technician, technician. +I mean there ought to be someone who can make a lead for us in house, that sort of thing, which we don't have at the moment, because we've got things like complicated split leads for rigging up two monitors, and we've had those twice we've had those made, outside, but they only need to get sort of broken, and we're back to square one. +One wouldn't employ a technician +We wouldn't employ one. +I can make leads, I mean, if you have to do it, if I had a spare moment +No, no. +That's the point, I mean I could do it. +It's the spare moment point. +And also, but half the time it's the problem arises because it's, the machines gone to personnel without something, and then we've got to spend time either chasing it up or getting another bit or going round in circles. +It also it is a fact that the people that you do tend to lend the equipment out to take it for granted that you are also a highly qualified video sort of technician and if anything goes wrong, they ring you up and say ‘What plug goes where, and why isn't this working’ and why should you if you're working run down to some conference in the John Hall Room and try and sort out something for these people. +You shouldn't. +No, we don't! +But I think we're making life worse for ourselves, unnecessarily unpleasant for ourselves. +This morning I had to connect up a video for Caroline to use and all the leads, every single lead we've got, to connect any machine to any machine, were all bundled in like a load missing, and it took me what, five minutes to find the right leads and connect the machines up. +If we would just organise those leads once and for all, and essentially, erm the leads belong to the video recorders rather than the monitors, and if those somehow were attached, if we could at least tie them together or whatever +They need labelling. +Yes, okay, label them, and were actually kept with the video recorders, that would be immensely helpful. +I mean that problem with leads is actually hopeless. +Isn't this compounded by the storage problem, bits are everywhere. +I mean if you had some sort of central area to put things in. +Well, we have one central area to put these things in, and it's called a small black samsonite bag, and they just get, it's just hopeless +If you could have somewhere you could obviously hang them, like leads on for instance. +That's what I started to do +That comes down to the same problem, that actually +It's once you start giving them out, that's what causes the problem. +I think we could organise ourselves just a little bit better, erm +Bringing it back to my point, though, there are people, if you have a typewriter, you don't have to know how to work the typewriter, erm it seems to me, that we're actually, the more we do, we make matters worse for ourselves. +And we are called upon, as Astrid says, to sort of, you know ‘this isn't working, can you fix it, because you know how it works’, and that's fair enough, but I'm not called on by somebody in the press to fix a typewriter. +erm So, my question really is, is there anybody who can help us. +Could I S look after our machines. +Could I S be responsible for our stuff? +Can I just see who wants tea and who wants coffee? +Thank you, how many coffees? +One, two, three, four. +Tea? +You want tea? +Two teas. +Phil wants tea, but he's not going to indicate it. +I don't know, I very much doubt it, I think it's unlikely. +Would we actually want that? +I mean, it's not a great, from a computing point of view, it's not great having some erm you know vast faceless organisation which is going to make sure everything's alright, because it means that when something goes wrong, it takes weeks and weeks and weeks to get it sorted out, because you have to fill in a form in triplicate, get it signed +mhm And they have to buy everything for you, and it takes ages doesn't it. +Okay, there's just +So there is, I feel there's a great merit in having your own kit, which you sort out. +erm My inclination would be to those people who phone up and say ‘look, I borrowed your kit and I can't work out whether the red plug goes in the blue hole’ or whatever, to say, ‘Well, tough’you know +Well, in that case I think it's fine as long as it's our equipment, but I think the problems always arise from it being lent out, and that's where I you know, I don't think we should have to sort out other people's problems. +erm I mean, I really do feel that at least as far as the division's concerned, there ought to be a separate set of equipment that is mobile. +I'll take that up again with Peter, but erm and see if we can get that to happen. +But if that then goes wrong, who's going to be called upon to to put that right? +Well, that's their problem +Well, you know, you call Mr Radio Rentals, don't you or whoever, you have to handle that separately, and that's, you know, we can say ‘sorry, we can't do it’. +Because at the moment, it's, I mean I agree, I think we ought to sort out our own bit and look after our own leads, we should be able to do that, but +But we don't +Okay, we don't, but we do get them all tangled up by other people taking them away, and not bringing them back, and then we don't know what we've got, you know. +So there's two issues, erm alright, I'm thinking, are there two issues? +There's the kind of repair and maintenance bit, which really could be handled at a more divisional level. +The repair and maintenance bit is actually dealt with by by sending it out to to to Absolute Sound and Video or whoever. +mhm +It hasn't been passed properly. +Then there's the lending it out problem, where presumably people say ‘can I borrow this stuff’ and they just sort of walk off with it and you don't know whether you've got it all back, and you find a few weeks later there's a lead missing. +mhm +erm that sounds like, you know, our own housekeeping problems. +I think if we had a if we if we tried, as you say, labelled the leads and tried to keep the leads together with the video recorders and perhaps stick a think on the video recorder saying which leads belong to this particular thing then the problem would be 'cos this would provide you with a checklist whenever you lent it out as to whether it was coming back, or provide the leads in other words +Who wants tea? +Coffee please +Sugar? +with something to check against as well. +So have a checklist. +It would be very easy to stick a sticky label on the video recorder with a list leads with go with it. +Caroline? +Okay. +I agree with you a hundred percent we should try to overcome the problem of lending of that overcome the problems overcome the problems that evolve +Sugar? +from our and I would continue to press for that. +Yes. +mhm +That's the main problem. +Then there's also the problem where that stuff is stored. +mhm +I think it will get better when we move. +Well I mean you could have you could have one in here. +You could have one area as integral machines and things +Do you want anything? +erm No, I'm okay, thanks. +Right. +Okay. +We could +I've got a filing cabinet that's sat in my little corner which is empty, just a big tin box that's got little keys, I mean, but it's not ideally situated at the moment. +Whether it could, you know, whether it could be moved erm +cupboard, but there's just nowhere. +Right, anything else that's erm needs raising out of the last meeting? +Corpus update. +Quite a lot's happened actually since this last meeting. +In summary, Collins have pulled out of participation in the National Corpus Project and Longman have given a commitment to participate in the National Corpus Project, which leaves us having submitted a proposal a revised proposal to the D T I, erm fully documenting Longman's contribution, erm but leaving O U P's role and financial contribution to the project open in anticipation that there is likely to be some rearrangements amongst the industrial partners, that is there may be a reallocation of funding between Longman and O U P and maybe the addition of new partners erm or it may just stay as it is erm. +We submitted that to the D T I, what two weeks ago? +Ten days ago, something like that? +Two weeks ago erm and we've had no feedback at all from the D T I yet erm +Have the acknowledged it? +I don't think I know. +Well we know they've got it? +Yeah, we know they've got it, but they haven't said anything. +erm +That's it really. +That's about it actually . +Yes. +Why did Collins pull out? +It's interesting or relevant to know. +erm because basically the answer was because it meant finding erm making some new cash contribution to a hundred million word National Corpus for the nation, rather than, as it were , ‘selling it’ in inverted commas, the Corpus material which Collins, through the Birmingham University already have at their disposal, and the gap between the material that they could contribute to the project in kind and the erm role we wanted them to play just wasn't compatible. +We're told it's a very close thing, the decision not to participate erm and there were certain technical and theoretical reasons, I think, that led them to come down on the side of not . +Basically there are two academics in this country who consider themselves the countries expert in the singular on Corpus building and they are at different ends of the spectrum. +And one is in our consortium, the other is not. +Interesting that one has the Collins and Longmans . +That said, the the Collins link was actually quite sad come to pass . +Anything else . +Can I just erm make one point. +The minute here on sales ‘rjm presented a summary of the sales figures for the last financial year and the of the titles. +It was decided that we should look at these in more depth’. +erm Is that did we decide to look at those in more depth? +I thought I actually gave all the sales figures we have. +We don't have any more information on sales for last year, do we? +I'm not erm not a +I think we you decided to look at the erm way it was presented in more depth, as opposed to the +We were going to actually analyze the +suggestions +We keep finding out why certain things erm certain things don't tally. +Oh, I see, yah, that's a different issue. +I see, that wasn't very erm +It was felt that if we had that information available that it might be worthwhile exercise to carry out some analysis of erm time was given or +It's relevant perhaps to report hereof that John Dennis has done a very useful spreadsheet of erm video profitability on a erm video by video basis, which we have actually a sort of profit and loss account for every year it was produced, and that is going to become a quarterly erm document which we can look at erm and that that's very useful to to and we did actually at our meeting discussing that yesterday we decided that we were going to erm try to break down erm the sales of that into title by market, didn't we? +mhm, yes, mhm. +John Dennis is going to prepare this spreadsheet erm on a every quarter. +The one that he's done so far was at the end of December and erm he is going to do one to the end of March and that's going to be a regular thing. +Does that reassure you on that one, or do you still think you were being asked to do something ? +No, it's all right, I didn't mean I'm not worried about it. +I didn't make much sense to me and I wasn't sure what we decided to do and erm you know I think it's slightly inaccurate, but never mind. +Simon, you particularly wanted to raise the issue of job descriptions . +erm take publicity first? +Yes, yes, we should because we're very grateful. +Because the job descriptions were to us as a department. +erm We've had the two concept meetings for on track and great way too and basically I'm going to do copy by tomorrow and then next week we can look at them, look at the copy, for both on track and and the stock dates that I've got are the twenty first of August for both of them. +mhm. +So they should be in. +Right. +What was that date? +Twenty first of August. +We've also got the leaflet for the satellite broadcasts, haven't we? +Yes. +That's going to be circulated. +How are we going to do this — at fifty thousand? +Yeah, I think in the end it was fifty thousand that we did, which is going to go out with all the mailings over the next few weeks. +mhm. +Is that is that in time? +I mean I've got is that any good because +mhm. +it's gone out +I I don't think that's a problem because we're doing erm we're doing two blocks of six and we're onto the fourth of the first block now, but then the second block comes up in September and October, so it's certainly in time for that. +I think we had to accept that the first programmes were just to get the whole thing working really erm. +We are publicized anyway by Eurostep and they do quite a lot of publicity — how effective their publicity is I don't know, but we our publicity is as a back up to existing publicity. +Eurostep? +Eurostep — S T E P — Eurostep erm so erm I think it's okay. +It's worth mentioning that I asked a lot of people in Spain, when I was there, at the Spanish you know what they knew about it, and nobody did. +mhm. +I got absolutely zero response. +mhm mhm. +Yes erm one of the questions which we haven't addressed on our leaflet is well actually, what, you know, how do you receive this programme erm and you do need special equipment erm Eurostep +You need a television, yeah, but you need a special special dish erm in Eurostep's own publicity — I looked at this and they say the programme is available with, you know, sort of cheap and readily available sort of satellite dishes. +They don't specify what they are erm which is is is not terribly helpful erm basically +People don't know when they can get it or not. +mhm no. +And you've got to be pretty enthusiastic to get it. +I mean people are receiving the programme. +There are dishes around. +But at the moment I would say that if there are a hundred people receiving the programme across all of Europe that'd be pretty impressive. +I'd be quite pleased with that. +A hundred? +A hundred. +A whole hundred? +A whole hundred. +I mean if there were if there were. +If there were. +If there were — it's probably two people. +Do they have any idea of can they monitor at all who gets it? +erm they ought they ought to be finding out. +I mean they ought it would be easy to monitor because it is so it's so concise. +It's not like trying to find out who watches Coronation Street, because it's so specialized. +mhm. +But they're, you know, they're a funny organization and lot of +Isn't this part of Van der Plank's +Well Van +Consultancy for the British Council? +Yes, it's it's he is supposed to be finding out whose whose whose getting the British Council Programme, but the Eurostep people to know ought to have a pretty good idea of all the Eurostep receivers. +Is it the same satellite as Rupert Murdoch's establishment? +No, no. +No it's not, it's erm +Oh yes, different. +I mean the whole point of this really is to +Rupert Murdoch's only got eight of the however many channels . +Oh right, no it's Olympus and it's erm why we're doing this is partly because the European Space Agency is trying to encourage people who weren't previously satellite users to become satellite users and in the next century, or whenever,erm to to actually buy commercial satellite time for from them. +erm So that's why all this is happening. +Should we have +Many apologies. +Back to Publicity Department. +So that that the leaflet's going to be going out in a mega mailing. +Yes, there's Spain, Italy, France,. +Spain alone is twenty four thousand. +Twenty four thousand. +Yes. +Italy's university . +France is . +It's probably true to say, isn't it, that anybody who's going to be picking this up are going to be in the school system rather than in the private school system? +I would have thought more of the state institutions really. +It doesn't +Part of the reason for doing it is is we can actually say we did it, so we can tell people despite the fact that they get the programme. +The reason we did those mailings is because of the warning that we had they were the only mailings available by the way. +Right. +You wanted it to go out in the summer +Yes. +but the current set of transmissions have now switched to September and really, apart from these next mailings are in September so +mhm. +that's the reason they went out with those particular mailings, not through any great process of choice. +Anything else to say with publicity that's erm +We've erm completed the grape vine sample cassette now,, so that should be available in the next two or three weeks distribution. +Just the sort of highlights, tasters? +Yes. +Is that going to be are there going to be any other promotional cassettes in the pipeline in the next +In the next?— this year? +I should imagine that's probably it for a little while, isn't it? +There ought to be one for project video erm we can't do that until we can show a book. +Yes. +We at least need a book cover. +We really need some sample pages. +So we wouldn't be able to do that until the autumn, would we? +We're not going to have cover page proofs until November. +A great design form this. +Another press third of October. +When? +Third of October. +Third of October, yah. +But we couldn't put that together until erm +No, I mean the only reason I ask is if we do a mailing of a particular thing, then very often the the offer that the market can make, or one of them, is, you know, to see a specimen cassette +mhm. +But as far as I can see we are more or less covered. +We had problems that last year with bits of this assignment until the mailing went out and then, you know, the video cassette, the specimen cassette was available but perhaps if it had been a couple of weeks earlier it would have been better. +mhm. +But I think we're covered there because we've got grape vine, which people would probably work on a new leaflet and the specimen cassette's going to be ready before the leaflet, and then project English new leaflet December, so if you are aiming to produce, if you do so, a new project English specimen cassette for next spring then +mhm. +that would tie in with any, you know, immediate use of the market . +Yes. +Are the systems in the this ourselves now on the responsibility of the sample videos that are now running smoothly. +Do we know who's paying for what and +Yes. +Publicity pays and gets the money back from the markets. +What we haven't actually started doing yet is getting the money back. +But I think possibly what I might do is try and make this grape vine one the first one where we actually do do it properly. +That'll be a major achievement when that is all sorted out. +Can't you send them a bill for all the ones they've had in the past? +mhm. +Backdate them. +With inflation. +A nice little earner for you, won't it? +Yes. +Yes. +One way of making a profit. +Yes,. +If I disappear to the Bahamas for a holiday . +An interesting press for you. +If you actually charge for your publishing journal. +The is to charge authors to go on tour . +I didn't say that . +That's a different Dave Stewart, not the one who works here. +David O. +Stewart . +That's the guitarist in the Eurythmics. +Have you discuss with the David Stewart the business of compilation of programmes? +No, haven't seen him. +He hasn't been around I don't think since +Yes. +Well that seems to have sorted itself out, actually. +He seems to have erm fallen in line, doesn't he? +I suppose so. +I got one memo +mhm. +Which then was a copy to your memo answer you +mhm. +mhm. +But +I'll check that again, but I think it's I think it's all right now. +'Cos, yes, I did write I have written to him. +mhm. +mhm. +Are we having we have to vote here? +Anything else needs to be . +Anything you need to raise with us? +No, I don't think so. +I mean the main thing is these new leaflets really +mhm. +getting them produced, checked +You're happy about that? +Yes. +Great. +Thanks very much indeed then. +Great. +Thanks very much. +Sorry I was late. +It's all right, we held over. +It's a privilege to have you, even for a short while! +Do drop it on one of our publicity schedules . +Cheers. +Thanks a lot. +'Bye. +'Bye. +Right erm Simon, can we get to work. +mhm. +You've all been and this is really addressed to to H O H members, not to erm delegates group or whatever we call ourselves erm everyone's been to a erm job evaluation H O H A discussion, right? +Astrid hasn't. +has not. +erm one or two not giving that much with us. +That's one of that's the reason. +Yes. +But everybody else has been. +Yes, yes, yes. +erm and Phil is a job +Am I? +I'm being trained tomorrow, so I don't know what I am yet 'til I get my +Are you an analyst or a +A job commandant? +Panellist. +Panellist, yes that's right. +That sounds jolly. +Not an analyst, but a panellist . +. +When, when erm Phil has had is training tomorrow, he will become an expert amongst us and will erm put my rather partial knowledge into the into the shade, but basically what I've got here is a blank form for everybody to fill in — a job description questionnaire — together with job description guide notes, which should go together. +You obviously haven't had time to to look at these, and I just wanted to say one or two things +Can I have a look anyway. +Starting from now . +erm Basically erm there are various ways in which one can actually put together the job description. +I think, I mean, one way is for editors with similar jobs to get together and do a generic one erm but there's only one editor amongst us so you have no-one together with unless you want to find somebody in another group, but I don't think it's going to really serve very much purpose. +No. +erm I think really what erm what should happen is that erm you, with your manager, ought to to to look at the the erm to establish and agreed job description and in addition to the notes that are are are there erm I have some sample job descriptions from other parts of the Press which have been completed as a framework job and erm we can discuss that in any kind of detail you want. +But it really doesn't matter how we who does the job description erm whether it's you, or whether it's me or your manager, but it has to be agreed erm by both parties. +erm There are job analysts who will help you, in addition to erm the kind of help informally that that erm that Phil could could offer once he's had his training. +As a job panellist, you're actually in the business of assessing job descriptions, rather than presenting them, right? +mhm. +The job analysts are in the position of actually making sure that a job description is filled in correctly before it goes to to to the jury on which Phil sits. +The job analysts within E L T, are Neil Butterfield, John Dennis, Anne and Claire Nichol, and they are, in fact, if you like, a sort of second or I mean you can go to them to get advice about how to fill in the job description rather than go to your manager, or if if if you have some dispute or disagreement or whatever the job analysts can can can help in that. +It really is a question of the job analysts being expert. +They've had additional training in in erm filling in correctly the the the form and will pick up erm for example on the erm the principal accountabilities — every accountability should have three parts, it should be an action verb to help, or to do, or to ensure, or whatever and it should be what it is you're doing and thirdly it ought to have some sort of erm target in in in doing it. +You've got to have a list of words there. +A list of words . +Read them out for the tape recorder. +And erm so it's a +A quick Corpus check on these . +So a typical accountability will read something like ‘to erm help decide erm publishing policy in order that something should be achieved’, so it has those those those three parts to it. +It's that kind of formality within the job description that that that will be the area where the job analysts, i.e. Butterfield, Dennis and Nichol, will be able to help with. +Essentially you'll that erm the the analysts are erm hand on, uhm, ‘both managers a such should be encouraged to consult the various directors and put some forethought into the sort of accessibilities, sorry accountabilities, that characterize a certain sort of job’ so although they are not all directors, Neil is is is will be our editorial expert in this. +John Temple will be design expert in this erm Malcolm Price obviously production and Dave Stewart for sales and Loretta for secretaries erm and they have had a deal more training and briefing on the whole process. +erm When the the the job description is signed it ought to be passed by a job analyst just to make sure to check the things that erm it has been done properly and then it has to be signed by the erm job holder, the job holder's manager and the head of division, and it has to be got to personnel. +All job descriptions have got to be done not later than the twenty ninth of June. +So you've got just a month to do it in. +Whew. +This is exactly the same as the the existing A form isn't it? +I haven't checked it erm I may be wrong, but I would imagine it is very similar indeed. +Yes. +If not identical. +Yes. +Hay fever. +Okay? +Anything else on that? +There are framework jobs and erm I've got a list of all the framework jobs that are in our area, in fact they are radical suppressive. +So, for example, editorial — senior editor is Sally Wehmeiher or Cathy . +They've been taken as typical of the senior editors and right across every function area is is covered by that and I've got erm sample job descriptions for all the editorial levels and I can get them for any other secretarial levels or design and I can acquire those if you want to see what has been done in terms of trying to draw up a framework, you know, that kind of thing. +It won't work with some of us because they are unique jobs within the Press. +Okay? +Probably what the best thing to do is for for for managers to to to to sit when Vicky comes back I'll fill in for anyone who reports to me. +I'll get a sort of programme, preliminary discussion, a one to one discussion, with anyone who reports to me, and then schedule a sort of follow up session on that later. +Called lucky bastard . +Jeremy will be doing Caroline's and you won't be doing +No . +Whew. +It might +No you won't . +Thank you, Simon. +Any questions on that. +I am very happy, in fact, that the whole the whole process the whole business of erm switching the system has been accepted and in fact even welcomed I think by the unions. +Good news. +Thank you. +Can we hang on to these? +Yes of course. +Yes. +Fine, yah, we'll while away the odd moment. +And on to any other business. +Any other business? +Please? +I've got a couple of things I'd really like to mention if no-one else has got anything. +We seem to have a dearth of erm, so let's go straight into Simon's other business. +July conference — the area manager's conference. +We've got two sessions planned erm and I would like to Rob that you and I ought to meet and talk about how we're going to handle that session in some detail and the videos. +Yes, we in the next two weeks. +Before you get stuck into the +Yes, because it comes straight after. +Well could you take responsibility for actually sort of sitting down with me sometime so we can have a meeting to talk that through? +mhm. +And, Tim, you and I ought to have a we're not actually going to have a formal session on self-study, but we have another we have a rather loosely structured session when we can bring up any other matters for erm basically that they'll want to plan the video session rather carefully as well basically I think we want to follow in on yesterday's meeting — we want to find out why we're not selling more videos basically and use the whole of that session if necessary for exploring with the area managers why we're not doing twice or three times as well as we are. +mhm. +So, that's that. +Holidays. +Another message from our leader here erm Mr. Mothersole. +Interestingly he's talking about — this is written on the third of May, talking about the present splendid weather, which is , plus the recent report that too many British industrialists are making themselves ill because they don't take their holidays has prompted me to write to you about our holidays. +Are we all going together ? +Not . +His view is as follows and then — this is the longest memo Peter's ever written. +Basically he is against carrying your holiday over, essentially. +‘Staff in your division should be encouraged to take their full holiday entitlement. +It is the managers' job to help staff plan their holiday entitlement appropriately to ensure that the workload is . +Quite simply our success does not depend on anyone missing their summer holidays. +Staff should be discouraged from carrying over anything more than a few holidays a few days holiday from one year to the next, unless it's for specific purposes, such as climbing, catching dingo or visiting Aunty Mabel in New Zealand. +Carrying over two weeks worth of holiday from one year to another is not an adequate substitute for a ‘proper holiday’.’ +So basically Peter wants to +Not even proper . +erm Peter wants to tighten up on on on the business of erm carrying holidays over and I think he's right, actually, erm and he also is using this opportunity to try to et us to plan our holidays as a group so that we're not all off at the same time, or if it's appropriate we should all be off a the same time then we're off at the same time, but it's erm common sense should prevail one way or another, but it would be a good idea if you could let me have erm a brief indication of any major times you plan to be away. +The odd day here and there is not important, but if you could let me know within the next couple of weeks or so when you intend to take a major part of your holiday away — if you know — I don't myself know erm yet — but if you do know then I can have a look at the overall picture and see that we're not all dispersed. +When you're if you're both on a shoot and that's a holiday in itself, so presumably that's +I think you should take that back right now, I might +Can you say that to the microphone. +I missed it. +I would have thought that we might go on holiday, well going on quite a long holiday, we're going on holiday after the project video's completed, so it'll be Christmas for me +Okay. +Just just just — if you could just if you could let me know, say within the next fortnight, if you know that is. +You should see a memo from me about two weeks in September. +Are you going to New Zealand, or +Visit your Aunty Mabel?. +Okay +Is anybody going away? +Complain about the time it takes for the Beano to reach me . +Its the twelfth of May and it hasn't got to me. + +What is that? +It's a microphone. +Yeah. +Don't touch that bit. +So you're gonna record people talking to you? +What? +So you're gonna record people talking to you? +It's recording here. +So,wh who are you gonna give it to? +What? university or something. +Doing a study on +university it's crap. +Don't you. +Oh shut up. +Now you can go no, it's uni university in the country and +They up here? +Yeah. +Are you doing it now? +Yeah. +Do this level thing does so when you go la +I'm gonna record +hello +A bit, bit concerned about my, my, my state of mentality. +Yeah, yeah Call you +What? +okey dokey crap +Bugger. +Bugger. +Name, first name bogie +occupation like none. +housemaster +Allegedly No, +Age seventy plus. +Allegedly +Oh look, seems different to what I was doing. +What were you doing? +Well I +Oh cool this is different wicked. +what were you doing? +Er I was actually er doing conversations with all these tapes, +So you don't need to put your posh voice on this tape? +Hey, hey, hey. +I hope this really university +Bergen. +Burgundy? +Burgundy. +Bergen. +Bergen +Bergen +Bergen yeah, I heard it was really shit. +Yeah I was told by Mr it was like one of the worst +Didn't that didn't Mr say that it was really crap +Don't know, I can't understand it I can't +Yeah,I get you. +The problem is. +What? +that is a babe. +She's getting married to erm Nigel Kennedy or somebody, Kennedy's front page, look. +Nigel Kennedy? +Oh, Kennedy President? +Yeah. +Yeah. +Didn't know that. +I want some coffee +Coffee, I need coffee. +Chocolate, hot chocolate. +What's your honest opinion +Crap No, I like some of it, honestly I like some of it, but some of it's really shit, but it's sort of movement really. +If you've got a bad head +just weird isn't it. +I mean sometimes you expect him to laugh and he doesn't laugh like he says something funny and I say something funny back to him, but he doesn't laugh. +Pardon me. +Yeah +Such a fat waddles along +I bet it's quite good actually. +You changed your R S project? +That's on the first question. +How many questions do you have to do? +Five. +Five questions? +How many pages have you done?look at the spacing out I mean you've probably got about three words. +Oh shut up what are you on about three words per line? +How l how long you had to do that? +Hello. +You've got a week and a bit to do four questions. +Five. +Five questions. +I bet he'll be spending all weekend, this weekend doing it. +Yeah. +really interesting offer +Where? +Oh yeah +Oh God +It said special features a beach. +Of a beach, a weighing machine actually. +probably got about two centimetres +Beach is really good cos it's like all the beach is like a tiled area where you sit down. +And the painted palm trees on a +On a wall. +I know but they're all the same those places, there all get bored with them in about five minutes. +Have you recorded it all? +I'm still cold. +If it is, if it is Saturday, we won't seriously play rugby +It depends really pissed or frozen. +We will +You're telling me you wanna run around in a pair of shorts +He's not playing anyway. +I'm not playing. +Why not? +Why? +Dunno. +Been dropped. +Crap. +No, it's +Who's taken your place, there's Chris Smith at full-back on the wing +Yeah. +That's all right I suppose. +missing them. +Oh cos you've gotta have a good in kicking +Actually he didn he didn't kick too badly the other day. +Oh yeah, and last night Jimmy kicked it right into the middle of the field and that. +He didn he didn't kick it, he wasn't that bad it's just Jimmy +No, he wasn't that bad but he, he just tried a bit like +I know. +really simple gets steep as well +coffee. +Is your weakness. +Yeah, I don't mind. +What did you get? +Four As, four Bs and two Cs. +I got four As, four Bs a C and a D. +Who did you get the As off? +I bet you I got Physics, Chemistry, English Geog Geography. +See I told you man he gets an A with every woman teacher that he has. +Ev crook +Oh, that is sick. +I might get one A from really +She said I was doing really well. +She said I was doing well until I fucked off to +Yeah, it was really good. +I was doing really well and I'm really +You're disgusting +tests every one else is getting fifty per cent +Geog ninety-eight +Forty per cent 's enough +Here Jim +Seven per cent +Nick Pratt gets more than me. +So does +Nick Pratt +Excuse me, excuse me who came first in the Chemistry exam? +Could have been on that. +Fat bastard. +So you're gonna just be a reserve for the A. +Mhm I wanna go to because then I get a and it takes me about half an hour to get home. +Yeah, well go, go down to the station. +If that if that mucks up then tough. +Why? +will have to ring my mum and we will probably told like and my mum's working on Saturday I think. +Can't you just get a train into London? +Well that costs more, that costs about five quid and I won't have +No, its three-fifty. +Yeah, three-fifty it's erm it's more than we would have if we weren't playing. +Yeah, three-fifty gets through to London. +Then I've gotta another I've gotta pay another quid or something +underground London. +What, three pounds? +Yeah, three-fifty. +Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah +Yeah, yeah, I've got that, sorry, yeah. +Well I can't do it now, I've got to pay something like six-ninety. +You've gotta pay two quid, two pound no three pounds. +Three ten on the tubes yeah. +It's only one-thirty for me. +I know, exactly, you're so sad. +Jock skint. +Well it's not as if you've like come into loads of money when you suddenly turn sixteen is it? +I think you should be about eighteen. +Well they just more money that's all. +People like me I can get away with it, I get +No, I was just getting charged full fares when I was like thirteen. +What's this on? +Erm the buses. +Why? +Cos I looked, I looked about over sixteen. +Some drivers I did, some drivers believe me. +Yeah, I came I went up about a year ago, I remember when I went down to Hertford in the yeah, I said I, I forgot to say what ticket and they automatically give you an adult don't they? +Yeah, yeah, you save yeah, I know. +And I say can I go to Hertford please and they didn't ask me how old I was, they just like the next thing I knew I was whacked out this six hundred quid ticket. +I know, and you don't feel like arguing, cos there's like a massive queue behind you. +Yeah and then you got any identity please. +identity. +seriously by the time yeah, you get a bus out of here, say it's cancelled you leave at twelve o'clock. +Yeah. +You have to wait for a tr well first of all you have to we'll the miss yeah, at twelve twenty-eight or whatever +Yeah. +Well how are you gonna get are you gonna get a taxi or you're gonna get a bus down into Hertford. +Bus, that's w +What I do is I try and do a I just get a bus erm +There must be going, I try and go late and get a lift from someone to Hertford. +Yeah. +What I do is I just get a bus at Hertford and walk to Hertford and normally it doesn't take long it only takes about ten minutes +Really, you gotta walk all the way along the dual carriageway don't you? +Yeah, it's easy that's what I do all the time. +Do you? +Takes five minutes. +Ten minutes maximum. +Yeah, how you getting back, you get the train back? +Dunno. +Because I, what train did you get? +Oh shit, I'm not getting a train back I'm gonna come back by car. +Really, cos what time is the train that you got? +Whatever you do you're gonna have to get back at you're gonna have to start leaving London yeah. +Yeah. +Start leaving about sixish. +Six. +Five. +I'm telling you it's really bad news. +You get you have to get back obviously +Yeah. +Okay. +You've got okay you've got something like a six I don't even know what time the train comes they change at different times, the one I've caught was at five past nine train. +Five past nine? +Nine yeah, came up caught that just about getting in there +Yeah. +Okay so got on that train, thinking it would go straight to Hertford and it didn't. +Yeah. +So I had to wait fo at Enfield Chase for another bus and the bus from Enfield Chase yeah you go along all these piddley little so it's from erm ten it took me it took takes an hour-and-a-half on the bus. +From Enfield Chase. +Enfield Chase to Hertford North. +So that's an hour-and-a-half around an hour-an-a-half and ** a-half around an hour-and-a-half and blown, yeah. +How? +Cos it's in side roads, so that's an hour-and-a-half okay, you could we waiting for your train for about an hour so that's two-and-a-half hours +Yeah. +And then you can be erm actually the train journey to Enfield Chase takes about another half-an-hour, so that's two hours at least and as well. +So I have to go something like a five past seven train or something? +Five past seven, eight thirty, nine yeah. +So I'm gonna get I'm gonna be at that thing by about seven o'clock if I get on the train by I doubt I very much doubt it I'm getting the train. +Yeah, cos I might, I might see you at the station if you get the train. +I, I don't think I will be. +better not be not getting back here at ten o'clock. +Cos I've gotta go back otherwise +Cos the juniors, remember the juniors can't on terrace. +Yeah. +So all the teams must be away. +Think about it. +Yeah, got forty five and sixty, sixty +What about forty five, I mean they're gonna they're not gonna go on they're not gonna on twenty to win junior +forty five are crap. +Forty five is like the Bs. +Cs. +Where where's,fifteen, thirty, oh yeah, cos A B C here is A B C away. +See, forty five +Two, no it's two years, so you've got it t +Yeah I know, it's two years, but it's still the seating you can't have seating can you. +Fifteen and the thirty are like the A teams +Yeah okay, so if if +Forty five and sixty are like B teams +if the fifteen thirty place on well if the thirty are away then it goes +Oh yeah, I suppose. +I suppose +Why doesn't he turn up to any practices? +Erm who? +Chris Smith. +He's just a lazy bastard that's why. +Can't be bothered basically. +Doesn't he get done in? +What? +Why doesn't any of the masters have a go? +Dunno, I don't think anyone notices that he's gone. +Yeah they must have known Chris Smith wasn't there. +Wasn't he there? +I dunno. +He's in school isn't he? +Yeah, he couldn't be bothered to play rugby at the beginning, I mean nobody missed about four weeks. +It's forced. +Yeah, Dougie told +Yeah, Jock, got a really exciting day tomorrow. +day. +Good Oh. +Yeah. +Pretty cool, not. +Oh, I should be doing work but I can't. +You what? +Should be doing work, but I can't. +What do you mean can't? +Can't be bothered? +Can't be bothered yeah, basically. +Jock, no-one can be bothered to work, but they've just gotta do it. +I know, but sometimes I just get down and do it, but other times I just can't if you know what I mean. +No, I don't know what you mean. +Shut up, bloody +not nice. +I'm talking +What do you er think of the +Rough, what the little one? +Yeah. +She's all right I suppose. +you like the little little one hey. +Ooh +Shut up +She's American. +blown a fuse, and it's on tape +Julian shut up, just cos you know just cos you +Cos I like what? +Cos you fancy the bloody Viking. +The Viking no way +Jock, you know the Viking that's your sister that is. +Shut up +That's your girlfriend that is. +When's the last time you got a letter from Jamie? +Erm couple of days ago. +How often do you write? +Erm once a week sometimes that depends when I feel like it. +happily. +What? +You go there you'll play rugby and erm +Shut up that's a point I won't be knackered at all. +You won't be knackered at all I mean bloody killed playing freezing conditions. +Yeah, but I this will be the first match I haven't played this season. +So? +I wouldn't mind, I mean I don't mind if Chris cos I know he's better than me, but Christ Smith's crap. +Yeah, he was he's erm full-back for the and erm he was pretty crap. +The only reason was cos erm he was quick. +No and also is +No, cos John Collier could have been in there, John, John played erm two matches when Chris was injured. +No, what about and they were both +Yeah,that that's why +Nicholson +That's why I play. +chest infection and bloody done his knee in or something. +That's why I was in the team for after half term. +Never actually played at +I thought we never will. +You really crap yourself beforehand, but once you play you think great,the best. +Jock. +What? +You're sad. +shut up. +I'm not doing any more work, I can't be bothered. +Nor can I, I don't know what to do. +Just sad, I've got about eight projects. +The thing is, oh yeah what do you think of those women that came? +What scholarship +I don't think they're that bad. +Yeah, everyone was going on at how rough they are, I mean you can't as I've said before you can't exactly expect them to be super models. +I know. +And anyway if they were super models who would be able to go out with one so sad. +I know, I'd rather have someone who was +Reasonable +Reasonably good looking and a good laugh. +Yeah, cos then you know you've gotta chance of going out rather than or something then you haven't got a chance at all. +Sad. +You've gotta +And considering that they're all supposed to be erm all the +Yeah. +sad and scholarships and stuff. +not too bad. +Actually I saw so many women saw quite a few women up there. +Not bad. +I reckon we're gonna have a good year this year next year. +Year what? +Have a good year. +Cos I mean we had two crap years hadn't we, well. +Two crap years diabolical. +Now this year might be all right at the end. +At the end? +already. +What? +We could get to cos no-one actually talks about very sad isn't it. +Yeah, well we never get a chance do we. +No, when do we do it? +I think the saddest people gotta be Lawrence. +Why? +Trying to pull those two pretty women. +Yeah, playing rug playing rugby. +Playing rugby +Rugby on the afro turf every day. +he's a laugh. +Who? +John . +On the, on the he was on the and it was such a laugh it really was, good laugh. +What are you doing? +taken all the paper off. +what's funny Jim +You recording? +Yeah. +comes in and goes er +Shut up, shut up +And he goes erm I suppose you know he goes, he goes +No, Melissa, what have I done, shit what have I done I thought, oh my God, what have I done. +made her pregnant or something. +serious not really and Alistair goes oh yeah, it could do and I went er yeah er he goes why and I went why and he goes oh well, she ran on the . +Melissa well that was ages ago. +And she goes and he goes erm sounded, sounded like a good sounded like quite a nice girl really. +Quite a big girl really. +Is that what she said. +And he goes +How can you sound like a big girl +I, I just didn't stay to ask to be quite honest I was shell shocked. +pissed himself. +Why +When is it? +Tonight. +phoning about the disco. +I can't talk to her. +Why? +I don't wanna talk to her. +Why?you get get snogged at a disco. +When's the next disco. +second first fourteenth. +Y y yeah honest December +December +Yeah. +Yeah probably be another P A C St Albans disco. +All we talk about is swear words +Every other word is a swear word. +People who are listening to this have missed something +They're all Norwegian. +Oh God, I almost crapped myself I thought I was going to be working till twelve I've now got no prep to do. +Yeah I'll do that. +No you'll do it, you've gotta do it properly. +Painting a in half-an-hour and I haven't got any history chemistry. +I haven't done any work. +I'm just talking to this stupid microphone. +and you've got a friend. +oh no, they're gonna think we're rigging it now +the way Jimmy goes, Jimmy goes understand why you always take the piss out of me for my voice +Yeah he does doesn't he +When I'm round Jimmy I right Kevin. +I know yeah I noticed that in Alistair as well. +Is he going mad, he must be going mad. +Well on one Monday I went home, I can't remember what I said, I just came out with this really I and I said it really +I wasn't actually putting it on either, I said like that and and I keep saying yeah after each, each sentence when I'm describing something to my mum like saying last match yeah, we won yeah, six nil yeah, eight nil yeah and it I keep saying yeah, yeah, my mum's going yeah, shut up my mum says I go yeah that's well nice and she goes erm goes well nice I said +and I say well and I'm well cool +and I keep on saying that I've said it like about so many things when we're at home and she goes, what is this you always saying well with everything. +I know, it's like me. +around Jimmy more. +My parents they always say +My mum hates Jimmy because of that. +My mum doesn't my mum no, it's like my brother, my brother Jimmy's really nice. +Does he? +Like yeah, because like about what he did you know he was staying up with and all this and like giving him money and looking after Andrew so he goes for my parents Jimmy's really nice. +Well my dad reckons he's really nice anyway. +Dunno whether my mum does. +No. +My parents, my parents hate +My mum, my mum and dad hate +My mum, my mum keeps saying has settled down yet and I said +settle down. +Settle down. +I would say for you. +I would say like a bit myself you know +Oh like. +You know like this and like that and like +Bit like that. +And my mum and my my dad starts going like, like, like and they go what you do. +You know about +You wrote that letter yet? +Yeah. +By the way just for the tape she's a right fuck. +You know you wrote that letter and it said oh, I hope to see you in half term and then, then said I hope not +Bollocks. +She said that? +I hope not, no, he said that, I ha that's bollocks and then what else he wrote he says I love you lots I'm missing you lots. +Oh, no yuck all tape listeners is a really fat ugly rough mother fucker. +Just remember. +Dream of the Norwegian Viking person. +It's not very nice. +I know, she's so rough I mean she's so fat. +I mean Jimmy sang who is it +Jim screwed I mean +Jim says is fat +Fuck she is. +Keep fat. +She's a bit bit on the +Yeah, there's a bit of meat on her +No but when she sort of comes out he says +Shut up. +Claire +about up to my waist type of thing. +Yeah, she's short and +Short, fat stumpy, round, covered in acne. +Yuck. +Breast, did she have a breast? +I didn't really see her, I +Did she have a breast? +I know she had bad spots. +Did she have a breast? +Dunno she probably did she had everything else. +She had some disease as well. +She tried to talk to me a job, but we sort of joked away. +She used to she used to she goes erm +Yes. +It's like this yeah, hang around, meet +She's fat. +She beats her hairy chest. +Yeah +So disgusting. +Hairy armpits. +Hairy everything. +Hairy minge. +stuck +You'd lose your hands. +That's sick, she has problems going +Oh shut up. +Disgusting. +She quite rough. +Rough. +Well what about +What about +She's got some death wish. +I reckon Marie-Anne's the nicest girl he's ever fancied. +He's got, he's got, he's got a death wish on He must be takes the piss and I go. +He goes shut up, you taking the piss out of me. +I don't take the piss out of him he goes turns all silent, he goes like +Him and him and do you remember that? +Just think, someone that you fancy supposed to be someone in your dreams and stuff like that +Yeah. +Well yeah +Someone you really, really like, I mean how can you really, really like ? +Paul does +Oh yes Paul they were sitting like at the end of the corner there's been +Oh, no +alcove and there was one in the one far corner and sitting on the corner together, they were holding hands going every so often he hears . +But you know, Jimmy said, he said oh just a friend now it's I'm after. +Not. +Brady's going out with +How do you know? +But she goes to she goes to +Who? +He leaves next week. +You're joking. +My God. +Yeah. +You told him? +Because Alistair, Alistair's known for about four weeks that she's got +Cos he knew, cos he knew + +And don't put your greasy little hands ha? +Oh hi Warren! +You alright Shel? +What are you doing here you cunt? +Don't call my boyfriend a cunt ! +That's my dad you're talking about. +Jos. +Cor! +Look at that bum now! +You should relax +I think you're really +Teacher! +Teacher! +Teacher! +I think you're really sexy Warren! +Too late, he's mine. +Alright, too late, he's yours. +What are you going out with Warren? +Yes I am. +Oh, is she going out with you? +Yes I am. +Are you? +No, say. +I'm only joking Shel. +I've gotta like Shelley now. +Bloody idiots! +You're so thicky! +I see, it's screw me and leave me. +Aha. +Oh like you're seeing Martin +You know +again? +Yeah. +I quite understand. +Where's this bloody book! +Oh. +Eh? +Oh. +Urgh! +Urgh! +Oh my God! +Er, er er er er +It was so funny, I had this weird dream the other night, you know. +I mean +If it's about Take That I don't wanna hear. +Oh yeah. +It was. +No, I don't wanna hear it. +I got off with +Oh shut up! +and it was +nice though. +It's erm, it was at the, and he was +Come on! +You're in here to work don't +We are. +I said no no eating! +Sorry miss. +I'll spit it out straight away. +I swear to God. +Do I have to say it twice? +Yes. +Well +it does help if you say it twice cos +Then it's work d'ya hear? +Her hearing's +I got this brain problem, you know what I mean? +Come on. +You know what I mean? +Yeah. +I know what you mean. +Ah miss. +This is work though so +It isn't wo , oh yeah, I'm working by the way, you know. +Yeah. +Yeah. +She she's working on some poxy thing! +So where are we supposed to get the information then, just a +In fact, right now? +It is work miss. +Yeah, well this is exam work isn't it? +Ye , no. +It's not exam work. +Well what's it for then? +It's a special project. +Oh oh. +For a Norwegian college. +For a Norwegian college about teenage language. +Norwegian college! +Is it? +Yeah. +And I'm recording you right now. +Are you? +Yeah. +Oh! +Little microphone right here. +It's really cute. +Where's the bin? +Like a virgin . +Leave it alone! +It's ooh, it's to my, ee, aye, ee aye . +What is it? +Ha? +What's it for? +I'm gonna tell +I thought that was Drop Dead Fred. +I know. +Very funny. +Considering you ain't got your glasses on. +Oh oh. +Yeah. +This one, this one I might take away. +Doo dee doo . +She said has Warren got a nice bum? +And I said, yes. +Ooh! +A little Walkman. +I've got two Walkmans on me right now. +I've got this one and I've got this one. +What about the Jungle Book? +Oh I, I just love that! +Really? +Yeah. +Don't you think it is really good? +Nadima, shut your mouth about the Jungle Book! +Mrs will probably +you little baby! +You're fifteen years old and you still wanna watch the Jungle Book. +Honestly! +Ooh bay, boo boo +Some people! +be doo, I wanna be like you hoo hoo ! +Oh don't start on me you know, saying I can't there on Tuesday! +I said nothing. +I'm talking about me ! +Don't start because I'll, I'll smash +I'm just in the +your face in! +Sorry! +Som , someone like me . +That's okay. +Can you pass me my book back please? +Okay. +If she starts moaning I'm just gonna +What am I doing down here? +bust her face in! +Yeah. +And, if she starts moaning just gonna bust her face in! +Oh by the way I've got the +I say, I've got friends +Oh yeah . +and I'm gonna make them come over and I'm gonna make them beat the shit out of you! +Oh sorry. +Oh shut up! +Okay. +Yeah well +I know this Saturday. +It's your dad innit? +Yeah, your dad, I want you to know +Oh I think it was Freddie Kruger. +Are you having some? +I'm having some. +Yeah. +I don't like it. +Well it's alright. +Oh . +Oh well that's a bit of a bummer isn't it? +Oh I hate that. +And she's gone and got some. +Urgh! +Urgh! +Why have you got your headphones in? +What are you listening to? +I'm listening to like a virgin! +Oh I think Madonna's crap! +Ooh! +Ooh ! +So do I. +Fuck you! +Fuck the both of you right! +Madonna is a whore! +It's on that , it's brilliant! +No. +Shut your +She's so +mouth! +Shut +She is brilliant! +your mouth! +I agree with you. +Shut, thank you Nadima. +Shut your mouth! +And you're just a +a one-way conversation +I like Madonna. +Shut, shut your mouth! +Shut your mouth! +I like Madonna . +When you've got as much money as Madonna +Yes I do. +and as many fans you can then call her whatever you want. +I like Madonna. +She's wicked! +I love her new song. +Stop beating her up . +Oh God! +She's good. +That's so good. +Yeah go away from me now. +Why? +Do you like me? +Of course. +Ah ah. +Do you like Shelley? +Ah ah, he won't say it. +You know what I mean? +Go on give it to me. +I understand , I just, you know, I just, ha, I understand. +Do you like me Warren? +Yes or no? +No you don't +Yes! +have to hi oh oh! +What? +What? +What? +My man! +Just, Just leave him alone, you know. +He's a cheap man. +I'll save it for you. +Yes I know . +Nick's a bitch. +You're, you're dark. +Can, can we sing our song? +Go on, watch go on then. +My name is Nick +Oh! +I don't wanna see your . +And I am funky +And I am funky +Shut up ! +my name is Nick, my mum's a junkie. +my name is Nick, my mum's a junkie. +No don't say that cos I +My name is Nick, my gran is randy. +My name is Nick , my gran is randy. +My name is Nick. +My name is Nick. +Ready, steady,your gran is randy . +See you guys later. +Right. +See ya. +We got a break now. +We got Mickey as well. +Whip whoo! +Ya +Oh I think I'll I'll push in. +I don't like Mr I think he should be sacked personally. +I don't like Mr . +Ooh! +Ooh! +I don't like Mr . +I he's alright +Ooh! +Ooh! +You're gonna break it! +That wasn't very nice was it? +Warren I love you. +Ah? +You can come over tonight, and don't forget the condoms. +Are you coming over on Saturday? +No, he's coming round my house tonight with his condoms. +Can I come over on Saturday? +Why don't you both come round +Oh . +No I'll just come round you can appear I make the energies move quickly okay ? +Urgh! +That's disgusting! +I don't even know what you're talking about here, you know? +I, I don't nothing about it. +Talking about , it's sex. +I dunno nuffink about sex. +I'm an innocent child. +Mm. +Really? +I dunno nuffink about the birds and bees. +Are you a virgin? +All I know is, the birds go mm mm, and the bees, and the the birds go . +Yes I am a virgin. +The birds go buzz, and bees go +woo ooh ! +No? +I'm a virgin . +Not ! +Oh! +Dirty cow. +Not me . +Who did you do it with then? +I done it with my finger. +Didn't really . +No I never. +I done it with erm erm erm done it with Mick. +But I couldn't feel it, I just +you finished yet ? +That's right, he's really small isn't he? +Yeah. +Bob. +Dick. +Well I think Mick's quite a prick because he's so thick ain't he really ? +Oh shut up! +You're so cruel. +The things you've been saying about him. +I have the right to say these things, okay? +You know. +Time to go everyone! +The excitement's over . +What what excitement? +Whoo ooh ooh! +Come now, come on we better go. +No, it, it didn't matter so much in his hand +had his hands on the bloody thing he, I just got his a , I just jump up. +Cos I +You but Shelley you don't you don't +No I never! +Yes you did Shelley! +I never ! +He saw your body +I never. +and ever since then, face it Shelley! +I ne , no shut your mouth! +Shut up! +I'm not ! +That's Shelley ! +He's a dirty, rotten bastard! +Shelley +No! +you enjoyed it. +No. +Face it! +No! +You enjoyed it. +I never! +Shelley you wanted to +You rotten bastard ! +You Shelley are a sick fat bitch!